Engaged By Design

Why does a bachelor’s degree need to take four years and 120 credits? More importantly, what would happen if colleges started with the learning outcomes students actually need and designed backward from there?

In Part 1 of our conversation with Dr. Lori Carrell, Chancellor of the University of Minnesota Rochester and co-founder of the College-in-3 Exchange, we explore the origins of a national movement to rethink the structure of the bachelor’s degree.

Lori traces her own path from a curious child growing up in a rural community to professor, higher education reformer, and what she calls an “accidental chancellor.” She explains how her work with Robert Zemsky eventually led to College-in-3 and a growing network of institutions exploring intentionally designed three-year bachelor’s degrees.

But this is not simply about cutting 30 credits from an existing degree.

Lori argues that the real opportunity is to use research about how people learn, design around meaningful student outcomes, improve completion and career preparation, and make higher education more affordable at the same time.

In This Episode

• Lori’s journey from rural childhood to university chancellor
• Why curiosity and even boredom can be powerful forces for learning
• How Lori met Robert Zemsky
• The conversations that led to Communicate for a Change
• Where the original three-year degree idea came from
• How the pandemic helped reopen possibilities for higher education redesign
• UMR’s faculty design sprint and the prototype for an accelerated degree
• Why a three-year degree cannot simply be a four-year degree with courses removed
• How faculty teams across disciplines became early College-in-3 explorers
• The role of accreditors and policymakers in making experimentation possible
• Why seat time and learning are not the same thing
• Lori’s critique that higher education values learning research but often fails to implement it at scale
• Designing simultaneously for quality, completion, affordability, and career launch
• What institutions considering three-year degrees should think about first

About Lori Carrell

Lori J. Carrell, Ph.D., is Chancellor of the University of Minnesota Rochester and co-founder of the College-in-3 Exchange.

Her academic background is in human communication, and her scholarship and leadership have focused on learning innovation, communication, institutional change, student success, and wellbeing.

Before becoming UMR’s second chancellor in 2018, she served the campus as vice chancellor for academic and student affairs and interim chancellor. Earlier, she was a professor of communication and led teaching, learning, and general education reform at the University of Wisconsin Oshkosh.

She is co-author with Robert Zemsky of Communicate for a Change: Revitalizing Conversations for Higher Education.

Resources Mentioned

College-in-3 Exchange
Learn more about the national effort to redesign undergraduate education around increased student success and lower student costs.
College-in-3 Exchange

College-in-3 Overview
Background on how the movement began and its goals for three-year bachelor’s degree innovation.
College-in-3 in a Nutshell

Communicate for a Change: Revitalizing Conversations for Higher Education
Lori Carrell and Robert Zemsky, Johns Hopkins University Press, 2021.
View the book at Johns Hopkins University Press

University of Minnesota Rochester
University of Minnesota Rochester

Lori Carrell — UMR
UMR senior leadership

Forthcoming Book

Lori discusses a new book project telling the story of College-in-3, being developed with Robert Zemsky and Kimberly Sluis of Strada Education Foundation.

Public University of Minnesota materials have previously identified the project as:

College-in-3: An Overdue Conversation about Reducing Cost and Improving Quality

The project has been associated publicly with Johns Hopkins University Press, although final publication details have not yet been announced.

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

How do you make specialized student services work virtually—and how do you know they’re actually making a difference?

In part two of our conversation with Mikayla Middleton, Director of Ohana Student Services, we explore how Ohana matches providers to student needs and strengths, works with schools and families, tracks student progress, and responds to shortages of specialized professionals.

Mikayla also shares powerful examples of relationships built across distance, including a virtual special education teacher who surprised one of her students at graduation—and received his rose as the person who had made a meaningful difference in his educational journey.

The conversation comes full circle around individualized learning, the power of believing in people, and Mikayla’s reminder to share a little “sparkle” along the way.

Topics include: provider matching, special education staffing shortages, parent advocacy, student progress data, virtual therapy and support, school partnerships, individualized learning, and student success.

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

Mikayla Middleton’s path into education began with a love of teaching and a desire to help people who learn differently. Today, as Director of Ohana Student Services, she helps schools expand access to specialized services through a virtual model.

In this first part of our conversation, Mikayla talks with Michael Cottam and Vernon Smith about her journey from special education teacher to virtual education leader, the role of IEPs, the challenges schools face in providing specialized services, and how virtual delivery can connect students with the support they need regardless of location.

We also explore one of Mikayla’s favorite ideas: sometimes we need to borrow someone else’s belief in us until we can see those possibilities ourselves.

Topics include: special education, IEPs, virtual student services, teacher workload, access to specialized providers, rural education, and creating meaningful relationships with students online.

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

What does it take to move dual enrollment from simply offering college classes to truly helping students build a pathway toward their future?

In part two of our conversation with Dr. EJ Anderson, we look closely at the Rio Salado College dual enrollment model and the systems that have helped thousands of high school students successfully earn college credit, and, in some cases, complete an associate degree before graduating from high school.

EJ explains the role of success coaches who bridge the worlds of high school and college, the importance of genuine partnerships with schools, and how national quality standards help ensure that dual enrollment courses provide authentic college-level learning.

We also hear powerful stories of students whose identities and futures changed through these opportunities, including first-generation students and students pursuing career and technical education pathways.

The conversation concludes with EJ’s powerful philosophy of learner engagement: don’t just tell students about the class. Help them see the dream the class can help them reach.

In this episode:

• What makes the Rio Salado dual enrollment model distinctive
• Why success coaches serve as a bridge between high school and college
• Building strong school-college partnerships
• NACEP standards and academic quality
• How dual enrollment can change a student’s identity
• Career and technical education pathways
• Teacher shortages and policy challenges
• Engaging learners by connecting education to their goals and dreams

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

Dual enrollment has become one of the fastest-growing areas of higher education, but building a successful program takes much more than simply offering college credit in high school.

In part one of our conversation with Dr. EJ Anderson, we explore why students and parents are increasingly seeking dual enrollment opportunities, how dual enrollment differs from AP and IB, and what schools and colleges need to make these programs work at scale.

EJ draws on 18 years of experience in dual enrollment to discuss the importance of qualified teachers, strong leadership, clear communication with families, adequate staffing, and student support. We also explore the challenges that arise when institutions pursue enrollment growth without investing in the infrastructure needed to serve students well.

Along the way, EJ shares stories showing how dual enrollment can save students time and families money while opening new pathways into college and careers.

In this episode:

• Why dual enrollment is growing nationally
• Dual enrollment compared with AP and IB
• The importance of qualified high school instructors
• How leadership shapes successful programs
• What parents and students need to understand
• Enrollment fatigue and other barriers
• Why teachers have such a powerful influence on participation
• The tension between enrollment growth and program quality

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

Why does a bachelor's degree require 120 credits? And what happens when an institution asks whether those credits actually represent the learning students need?

In Part 2 of our conversation with Brian Ashton and Boyd Baggett, we examine the development of the three-year, 90-credit bachelor's degree offered through BYU-Idaho and BYU-Pathway Worldwide.

Boyd takes us behind the scenes of a process that began years before approval: changes in accreditation standards, a growing emphasis on student learning outcomes, collaboration with the College in 3 movement, and a willingness to question assumptions built into the traditional credit-hour model.

But shortening a degree isn't simply a matter of removing 30 credits. Brian and Boyd explain what had to remain, what students may give up, why the model isn't right for everyone, and why clearly defined and assessed learning outcomes are essential to maintaining quality.

The conversation then turns toward institutional mission, values, AI, rapid change, and what higher education leaders will need to navigate the future.

In this episode:

• Why BYU-Idaho pursued a 90-credit bachelor's degree
• How accreditation standards created an opening for innovation
• Why the Carnegie credit hour was never designed as a measure of student learning
• Building support for the three-year degree
• The enrollment response after the new degree was announced
• Why a shorter degree cannot simply mean cutting 30 credits
• Which students benefit most—and which may not
• What students give up in a more prescriptive degree pathway
• Employer and graduate-school response to the three-year degree
• Preserving institutional mission while redesigning curriculum
• Navigating AI, changing values, and a rapidly changing world
• Brian and Boyd's advice for engaging learners more effectively

The three-year degree raises a larger question for higher education: If students can demonstrate the learning they need in less time and at lower cost, what assumptions are we willing to reconsider?

Guests: Brian Ashton, President, BYU-Pathway Worldwide; Boyd Baggett, Associate Academic Vice President for Curriculum, BYU-Idaho

Hosts: Michael Cottam and Vernon Smith, Engaged by Design

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

What would higher education look like if it were designed from the beginning for students who need education to be affordable, flexible, relevant, and immediately useful?

In Part 1 of our conversation with Brian Ashton, president of BYU-Pathway Worldwide, and Boyd Baggett, associate academic vice president for curriculum at BYU-Idaho, we explore a model now serving nearly 100,000 students around the world.

Brian and Boyd explain how BYU-Pathway combines online-first design, dramatically different tuition models, student support, and job-ready stackable certificates to create pathways into meaningful work and bachelor's degrees. We also discuss how designing specifically for online education changes the economics of higher education—and how BYU-Pathway uses data, instructional design, and AI to support students at scale.

Along the way, Brian shares the story of a student in Argentina whose first certificate helped launch a career that eventually led to a vice president role at JPMorgan Chase.

In this episode:

• Why talent may be equally distributed while opportunity is not
• How BYU-Pathway serves students in nearly 200 countries
• Designing for online learning rather than adapting a campus model
• Keeping education affordable while maintaining quality
• Why students begin with job-ready certificates instead of general education
• How stackable certificates lead toward associate and bachelor's degrees
• Using data and AI to provide better student support at scale
• Designing curriculum around changing labor-market needs
• Preparing students not simply to use AI, but to develop judgment and become lifelong learners

This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation. In Part 2, we explore one of BYU-Idaho and BYU-Pathway's most significant innovations: the three-year bachelor's degree.

Guests: Brian Ashton, President, BYU-Pathway Worldwide; Boyd Baggett, Associate Academic Vice President for Curriculum, BYU-Idaho

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

What does it take to build a nationally competitive cybersecurity program from the ground up?

Dr. Ken Williams knows firsthand.

In the final episode of this series, Ken shares the challenges of launching Louisiana's first fully aligned cybersecurity degree program—from curriculum design and faculty hiring to building industry partnerships and preparing students for careers with organizations like the FBI, NASA, Cisco, IBM, and Amazon Web Services.

The conversation closes with Ken's deeply personal philosophy of teaching: treating every student like family while challenging them to become confident critical thinkers who are ready to solve problems the world hasn't even imagined yet.

It's an inspiring conversation about leadership, service, and creating educational experiences that truly change lives.

In this episode

• Launching Southern University's cybersecurity program
• Building a degree program from scratch
• Hiring and developing cybersecurity faculty
• Creating partnerships with industry leaders
• Preparing students for careers in government and technology
• Louisiana's statewide cybersecurity consortium
• Lessons in educational leadership
• How to engage more learners more effectively

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

Artificial intelligence is transforming cybersecurity, but it isn't replacing cybersecurity professionals.

It's making their work even more essential.

In Part 2 of this conversation, Dr. Ken Williams explains how AI is fundamentally changing both cyber defense and cyber attacks. Through practical stories and easy-to-understand analogies, he explores zero-day vulnerabilities, phishing attacks, ransomware, digital identity, and why cybersecurity has become one of the most critical professions in modern society.

Ken also shares how industry certifications, academic programs, and real-world experience must work together to prepare students for careers that will continue evolving alongside AI.

Whether you're an educator, technology leader, or simply someone trying to understand today's cybersecurity landscape, this episode offers valuable insight into where the future is headed.

In this episode

• Building a cybersecurity academy near Quantico
• Why certifications matter alongside degrees
• Closing the gap between academia and industry
• Understanding zero-day vulnerabilities
• AI's impact on cybersecurity
• The evolving threat of phishing and ransomware
• Why cybersecurity careers are growing—not disappearing
• How AI is reshaping national security

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education

What does military communications in the Gulf War have to do with educating tomorrow's cybersecurity professionals?

Quite a lot.

In Part 1 of this conversation, Vernon Smith sits down with Dr. Ken Williams to explore an extraordinary career that spans military service, cybersecurity leadership, and higher education innovation. Ken shares how leading communications teams in the Army during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm shaped his philosophy of leadership, preparation, and mission-critical thinking.

The conversation then shifts to higher education, where Ken discusses earning the prestigious NSA Center of Academic Excellence designation, redesigning cybersecurity curriculum around real workforce needs, and helping pioneer an accelerated three-year bachelor's degree that reduced costs while maintaining academic quality.

If you've ever wondered how higher education can better prepare students for today's rapidly changing workforce, this episode offers a compelling blueprint.

In this episode

• Ken's journey from Guyana to the U.S. Army
• Building communications infrastructure during the Gulf War
• Leadership lessons from the military
• Why cybersecurity education needed to change
• The NSA Center of Academic Excellence program
• Connecting curriculum to real workforce skills
• Designing an innovative three-year cybersecurity degree
• Lessons from collaborating across higher education systems

Join us at www.engagedbydesign.com to learn more about

• The Course Design Accelerator 
• Faculty-in-the-Loop AI in Higher Education