Expedition 44

Dr. Will Ryan and Matt interview Christ Date from Rethinking Hell on the "Big 3" hell texts that connect the word eternal and an act of punishment/judgement.

Matthew 25:31​-46 

Revelation 14:9-11 

Revelation 20:10​-15

We examine if these texts affirm the traditional view or the conditional immortality (annihilation) view of Hell. 

Chris Date is Adjunct Professor of Bible and Theology at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary and co-editor of Rethinking Hell: Readings in Evangelical Conditionalism (Cascade, 2014) and A Consuming Passion (Pickwick, 2015). A full-time software engineer, Chris believes theology and apologetics are for every average joe in the pews, and not just for pastors, philosophers, PhD’s and the erudite in ivory towers. Formerly a traditionalist, he became convinced of the biblical view of final punishment over the course of a process which began when he interviewed Edward Fudge, and he has since defended the view in several debates and on Justin Brierley’s Unbelievable? Radio program on Premier Christian Radio UK. Chris is also a steward of the Rethinking Hell project.

Dr. Will Ryan, Pastor Matt Mouzakis and Jana Diaz begin a series on Hell.   

o Our view of hell must be rooted in our view of God’s character.     

• Today we will give an overview of each view along with some common texts to show their merit.  

• In the upcoming episodes we’ll try to unbiasedly cover each view with its Biblical strengths and weaknesses along with philosophical strengths and weaknesses.  

• We’re going to have an interview with Chris Date from Rethinking Hell 

 • We’ll conclude the series with our thoughts and reflections    

Traditionalism (Eternal Torment, Eternal Conscience Torment [ECT])  

Primary text: • Matt 25:41​-46: Sheep and Goats, eternal punishment vs eternal life 

• Mark 9:43​-48:  Cut off your hand, pluck out your eye, eternal worms and fire not quenched 

• 2 Thes 1:9: shut out from the presence, everlasting destruction 

• Dan 12:2: everlasting contempt 

• Rev 14:10​-11: tormented, smoke will rise forever and ever 

• Rev 19:20: Those who receive the mark of the beast thrown into the lake of fire 

• Rev 20:10​,15: Devil, Beast, False prophet tormented day and night forever, those not found in the book of life thrown into the lake of fire.   

Notable advocates: Tertullian, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, and most of the western Christian tradition after the Reformation.     

Conditional Immortality (Annihilation)  

Primary texts:  • John 3:16: “perish” 

• Romans 6:23: Wages of sin is death 

• 1 Thes 1:9: everlasting destruction (not destroying) 

• 1 John 5:11​-12: he who has the son has life, he who does not have the son does not have life 

• 2 Peter 2:6-7: Sodom and Gomorrah’s extinction is equated to the lost. Ungodly are destroyed 

• Matt 10:28: Don’t fear the one who can kill your body but fear the one who can destroy your body and soul in hell 

• Psalms- Primary image of God’s enemies is death or destruction (end of life) 

• Phil 3:18​-19: Their end is destruction • Hebrews 10:39: destruction  

Notable advocates: Irenaeus, Ignatius, Athanasius, Arnobius, (Epistle of) Barnabas, John Stott, Edward Fudge, FF Bruce, Ben Witherington, Greg Boyd, Chris Date    

Universal Reconciliation (Christian Universalism, Patristic Universalism, Restorationism)  

Primary Texts: 

• Lam 3:31​-32: God restores after he judges 

• Rev 21:25​- Her gates will never be shut (same nations who were the bad guys are healed and welcomed in) 

• Rom 5:18: All die in Adam, all are made alive in Christ 

• Rom 11:26: All Israel will be saved 

• Rom 11:28: All shut up in disobedience, all given mercy 

• Col 1:19​-20: Through the cross all things are reconciled to God  

Notable Advocates: Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, George MacDonald, William Barclay, Thomas Talbot, Rob Bell (possibly?)

Doc Ryan with Expedition 44 and Pastor Matt Mouzakis   

• Get our focus off of the acquisition of possessions and money because they run contrary to the kingdom vision; be generous and store up treasures in heaven. You can only serve 1 master.  • Don’t worry or be anxious because God knows your needs and he provides.  

• Our role as humans is to love and show mercy; we are ambassadors of God’s reconciliation. God alone is judge.  

• We are called to discern but not condemn.  

• The sermon on the mount is an invitation to a new way to live- the kingdom way to live 

• It is not to simply accept and believe in Him but to live like Jesus and do what he says 

• The only acceptable response of a follower is to embrace this way of life.  

• “Doing and practicing” are more ordinary terms that would have equaled the definition of righteousness in the mind of a Jew during Jesus time. This righteousness we are called to is to conform our life and behaviors to Jesus’ kingdom vision.  

• James 1:22​-25 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do. 

 • The sermon on the mount is not legalistic or Torah on steroids. To respond to the sermon in the mount is not to respond to an ethical or moral vision… it is to respond to Jesus our King. Our proper response is to declare Jesus and who he is by the way that we live.

Dr. Will Ryan and Pastor Matt Mouzakis discuss Free Will and open theism with Dr. Greg Boyd (reknew.org).    

Can God be immutable and also be dynamic (open)?  

Can we actually be free if God foreknows our future choices?  

Is it possible for God to alter His plans or simply go along with something that man asks in their relationship with God even though he might not know that it’s the best way. We seem to see this with Israel regularly something so simple as why would God be talked out of the theocracy?  

 How do you view God changing his mind and possibly regretting decisions that he has made through the course of the biblical narrative? (The flood, Israel & golden calf incident)  

Some common objections to Open Theism:  

Did God forget to come back (in 70 A.D.?) or just decide that we weren’t worth it? Has God forgotten about us? Did he finally write us off? Is His total judgment to seemingly let mankind just destroy themselves?   

How can God ensure that His plans and promises will come to pass if the future is open?  

What about Judas? It seems that Jesus knew he’d betray Him and even seems like there is a prophecy predicting it?  

Election and Predestination- What about the statement in Acts about the cross being predestined or even all the predestined language in scripture that most link to salvation(Ephesians 1 and Romans 8)?  

Theodicy- How does Open Theism help make sense of the problem of evil?

Doc Ryan and Matt Mouzakis with Expedition 44 

Giving (Matt 6:1-4)   

THE POOR: “One who is gracious to the poor lends to the Lord, and He will repay him for his good deed.” - Proverbs 19:17​ 

• Hebrew has four different words translated “poor”.  They are anaw, dal, rash and ebyon.    

• Dal is an adjective that means poor or weak.    This word emphasizes the lack of material worth.  It is used to describe those who are socially weak and materially deprived.     

Gleaning (Lev 19:9-10); Sabbath rules about harvesting (Ex 20:31​); the year of canceling debts (Deut 15); The prophets pounded away at injustice (Is 3:14​-15, Amos 8:4-6)   

Prayer (Matt 6:5-8)   In Hebrew, prayer includes weeping, shouting, dancing, clapping, growling, pleading, rejoicing, praising, asking, arguing, questioning, meditating, repeating, reveling, working, walking, complaining, confessing, worshiping, thanking, acknowledging, delighting, exalting, forgiving, boasting and more.       

 Our Father (Matt 6:9-15)    Matthew 6:9 V-PMM/P-2P -Proseuchesthe     LXX shows that this Greek word is used for many different Hebrew words (you can take a look at Genesis 20:7, Judges 13:8, 1 Samuel 1:10​ and Psalm 31:7 as a few examples of the diversity).     

Bible Project- Heaven and Earth Video  

 “Daily” – The Greek word is epiousion.   Epi means “from” or “of”.  Ousia is the Greek word for “being” (to exist).   Literally, this word tells us that God will give us our being – our very existence.    

Matthew 6:13​B issues and problems of the doxology & Innerrancy  At the close of Matthew 6:13​, most modern versions of the New Testament place the phrase, “For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever; Amen” in a footnote, whereas the KJV, NKJV, WEB, and MEV have it in the text.     IT ISN’T IN THE OLDEST TRANSLATIONS The English wording of the Our Father that Protestants use today reflects the version based on the English version of the Bible produced by Tyndale in 1525. Tyndale’s version was not found in the liturgical tradition of western Christendom until the 1637 Scottish Book of Common Prayer.    Furthermore, although early Church Fathers such as Jerome, Gregory the Great, Ambrose, and Augustine wrote of the importance and beauty of the “Our Father” prayer, none of them included the phrase when they referenced it. The commentaries on the prayer by Tertullian, Origen, and Cyprian do not include it either.      

Fasting (Matt 6:16​-18)   

Conclusions: 

• Our acts of giving, prayer, and fasting are not about looking good to other religious people. Connecting with the heart of God and living for his approval is all that matters.    

• We are called to pray in a way that conforms our hearts to God’s heart- Name bearing, Kingdom focused, self-giving, forgiving, and fully relying on God.

Dr. Ryan and Matt continue their series on Sermon on the Mount and look at Nonviolence & Enemy Love (Matthew 5:38-5:48): 

-Israel’s law of retribution included both capital punishment (Life for life) and Corporal punishment (tooth for tooth) 

-how should we view the inspiration of the Bible? Is Jesus contradicting the OT here? He said he came to fulfill the law and to overthrow it… but here he’s overthrowing it. 

 -Cruciform Approach- This is similar to the Narrative approach, but it is building on it saying that all of scripture should be viewed through the lens of Jesus and his act of love on the cross (Greg Boyd)

 -Jesus reshapes his follower’s response to injustice according to how He interprets the Law (Love God Love Others). His response is not retaliation but with grace, compassion, and mercy in a way that reverses injustice in a way that an “evil person” becomes a “neighbor”.     

 -This is addressed to Jesus’ followers and not to governments (We’ll get into a believer’s involvement in systems of government at the end of this)    

“Jesus advocates not for balmy passivity but for nonviolent hyperactivity soaked in stubborn love”- Preston Sprinkle     

To be perfect means to love all humans, Jews and Romans, as neighbors. This lines up perfectly with Jesus’s hermeneutical approach to Torah. As Jesus says in Matt 22:34-40 that all the Torah and the prophets hang on Loving God and Loving others and this fulfills the entirety of God’s will, this too is surpassing the Righteousness (covenant behavior) of the Pharisees.   

Is God Violent? If nonviolence is the ethic, we are supposed to be living towards then what about God? He seems particularly violent in the OT and in Revelation.  We have a few options 

1. We can question the morality of God. Perhaps God is, at times, monstrous. 

2. We can question the immutability of God. Maybe God does change over time. 

3. We can question how we read Scripture. Could it be that we need to learn to read the Bible in a different way?   

Conclusions and thoughts: 

-It’s hard to discount the violent picture of God and Israel in the OT or even that God’s enemies will be defeated in the end, but I don’t see believer called to take up arms at participate in killing. 

 -I do believe that God was working with his people as he found them and moving them towards his ideal which is love of enemy and nonviolence. We are called to give ourselves up in the same way Jesus did. He was the truly human one and revealed to us how we are to live.   

-How do followers live this out today?

 -Are we called to effectiveness or faithfulness? Jesus seemed to win by losing in the world’s eyes. We are called to do the same.  

-We are called to be perfect as our father is perfect and in context that is radical love of enemy, even if it costs us.  

• This is about being overtly pro-life in our actions, speech, and protection/respect of all life from conception to grave as the image of God.  

• Romans 8:12 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Dr. Will Ryan of Covenant Theological Seminary and Matt continue their series on the Sermon on the Mount and look at Matt 5:17-38. 

Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets (Matt 5: 17-20) 

What is the Law? It’s about bearing God’s name in a wise way and not about statutory or legislative law 

Paul and the Law -Faith and works “of the Law”-  Stop gap thinking Fulfillment The Law was given to Israel as a covenant contract. 

 As New Covenant people we are called to the Law of Jesus which was the heart of the Torah- Love God Love others.  

Anger and Murder (Matt 5:21-26) 

Mishna - Pirke Avot 

Will be in danger of the fires of Hell (Gehenna)  

Adultery (Matt 5:27-30) 

Heb. עַיִן הָרָע, ayin ha-ra; lit., "the eye of the evil" 

Divorce (Matt 5: 31-32) 

Oaths (Matt 5:33-37)

Dr. Will Ryan and Matt kick off a series on the Sermon on the Mount. In this episode we cover the historical background to Matthew 5-7, the Beatitudes(Matt 5:1-12), and the concepts of being Salt and Light(5:13-16). 

-Jesus as Moses/Israel in Matthew 

-The Kingdom of God -Anawim 

-sacred soil 

-All Israel 

-Bible Project Justice video 

-tolerance 

-churchianity 

-scapegoat 

-Old Testament

 -Hebrew

Dr. Will Ryan and Matt Mouzakis interview Dr. Carmen Imes on her recent book. A conversation dealing with Old Testament law converging with life today. A look at the first three commands, and specifically what it meant to take God's name in vain. We continue to discuss being bearers of God's name and a light in darkness. We discuss Israel and the context of the old Testament today.