In this episode of the KC Underground podcast, Brian is joined by BrianJames McMahon for a conversation that moves beneath strategy and into formation. Together, they explore the relationship between experience, imagination, and hope, and why so many efforts toward disciple-making and microchurch life stall when imagination has not first been cultivated. The conversation revolves around the idea that we cannot hope for what we cannot imagine, and we cannot imagine what we have not experienced.

Drawing from lived moments, theological insight, and the everyday challenges of movemental leadership, this conversation invites us to reconsider how change actually happens. Rather than trying to convince or compel, they point toward the slow, intentional work of creating experiences and reflecting on them, allowing imagination to grow and hope to take root.