Michael Gibson joins Brian Anderson to discuss San Francisco's ongoing struggle with public order and his decision to leave the Bay Area for Los Angeles—the subject of Gibson's story, "America's Havana," in the Spring 2020 issue.

"Even before the current Covid-19 pandemic," writes Gibson, "San Francisco was a deeply troubled city." The city ranks first in the nation in a host of property crimes, and its high housing costs make it prohibitively expensive for low- and middle-income families. Even tech companies are now considering relocating their operations; any significant exodus of such businesses would be a serious blow to the city's economy.