In this special episode of the Dogs in our World podcast, Field Notes, Adam Winston interviews Dr. Temple Grandin, a renowned expert in animal science and autism awareness. Dr. Grandin shares insights from her personal experience with autism and her extensive work in animal behavior. The episode explores the parallels between autism and animal cognition, the importance of early intervention, and the therapeutic role dogs can play for individuals on the autism spectrum.

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

Introduction

Adam (0:23): Here we are, episode number six of Dogs in Our World. To celebrate the halfway point of this twelve-part series, I have a phenomenal guest to share with you. Temple Grandin is one of the biggest names in the worlds of animal science and autism awareness. She recently traveled to Vashon, Washington for a weekend of lectures and visits around the island and was kind enough to start her trip with us. If you haven’t heard of Dr. Grandin, I recommend the 2010 Emmy Award-winning HBO movie titled Temple Grandin and starring Claire Danes. In this very special episode of Dogs in Our World, Dr. Grandin tells us a bit about herself and offers advice to those of us who have a family member with an autism label. She also helps me better understand the autism spectrum, dogs, and the importance of volunteers in an animal shelter. All that and more in this nearly unedited conversation with Dr. Temple Grandin.

Adam (1:35): And continue to tell me a little more about yourself, please.

Dr. Grandin (1:38): Well, I’ve been at Colorado State University for twenty-six years, and I’m teaching a class in livestock behavior and cattle handling. I’ve done a lot of work with the meat industry to improve humane treatment of animals. I’ve got some books on animal behavior: Animals in Translation, Animals Make Us Human, both available on Amazon. I have a lot of books on livestock. I’ve got Humane Livestock Handling for large ranches, and I’ve just come out with a new one that’s got beautiful photographs. It would be really good for 4-H kids on handling cattle, pigs, sheep and goats. It’s called Temple Grandin’s Guide to Working with Farm Animals. That just came out. And then I’ve got textbooks, Improving Animal Welfare: A Practical Approach. If you’re really into science, I’ve got Genetics and the Behavior of Domestic Animals, but that’s an expensive textbook.

Adam (2:26): Anything else that people might know you for?

Dr. Grandin (2:28): I do a lot of talks on autism, because when I was a young child, I had all the full-blown symptoms of autism. No speech, didn’t talk until I was age four. Fortunately, I had very good early therapy. I can’t emphasize enough. If you have a young kid who’s not talking, you’ve got to start working with him. Teaching him how to talk, teaching him turn-taking. These kids have got to learn how to wait and take their turns. Autism goes from somebody who remains nonverbal and maybe has trouble dressing themselves, all the way up to Thomas Edison and Einstein. Einstein didn’t talk until age three. It’s a big, big, big continuum. See, a little bit of autism, you’ve gotta socially awkward person who may be just absolutely brilliant in the tech industry. Too much of that trait, and you’ve got a, you know, severe handicap. And there’s a parallel with animals. I read a fascinating study that was done over in Europe, looking at differences between wolves and dogs. And a brain can either be more social-emotional, or it can be more cognitive and thinking. And we’ve bred the dog to be super social-emotional towards us. And in a test that was done in Europe, they had a wolf watch another wolf open up a puzzle box to get some food. And the wolf does it easily. But, the domestic dog is so busy asking us for help and looking for us for help, it doesn’t pay enough attention to open the box. I also found another fascinating journal article on more social animals versus more solitary animals. Like, for example, lions are more social than panthers. And again, there are parallels here with autism. Now, are panthers defective? Absolutely not. You see, in the mild forms it’s just normal variation. A brain can be more thinking or a brain can be more social-emotional.

Adam (4:19): Is it possible that animals could experience autism?

Dr. Grandin (4:23): Well, if you put an animal in a very deprived environment, you can start getting repetitive behavior that resembles some of the repetitive behavior that many autistic kids do. And one of the reasons why sometimes autistic kids do repetitive behavior, is they do it to shut out an onslaught of sensory overstimulation. When I was a little kid, we used to go on a ferry, just like ferry you got here. And when the horn went off, I’d fling myself on the deck and start screaming, ’cause it hurt my ears. Today, I’m happy to say, I was right there in front of the horn and all I did was flinch a little bit. But when I was a little kid, it was like a dentist drill going into a nerve and so I’d do the repetitive behavior to block out some of these things. A dog that you keep locked up in a kennel all the time gets kind of stir crazy. You’ll have a lion that will pace. I’m not going to say that’s autism, but it’s one of ah symptoms that you see in both of situations.

Adam (5:16): So, I work in an animal shelter and in, what’s the a, what’s the real word for it? Stereoptic behavior?

Dr. Grandin (5:22): That’s called stereotypic. You know what dogs in an animal shelter need? I have a student, former student, Krista Coppola. Her PhD thesis work, and we’ve got it published in the Physiology & Behavior journal, and Krista found that dogs that she played with, you know, for forty-five minutes had lower salivary cortisol compared to the dog just chucked into the kennel. So what do animals in an animal shelter need? Each dog needs a volunteer to come in for thirty, forty-five minutes a day. Quality play and fun time with a person. Dogs need people. And I’ve gone into kind of junky animal shelters, they’re all chain link fence, that had a really good volunteer program and you didn’t have all the barking. What dogs in kennels that don’t get enough contact with people go crazy.

Adam (6:13): And are you saying you see a parallel between some of these repetitive behaviors with animals that have spent too much time in their enclosure, and there’s a parallel to the repetitive behaviors that we see with people with autism sometimes?

Dr. Grandin (6:25): Well people with autism do it because the sensory environment is overstimulating. So they do it to block out an overstimuli. The dog does it due to the lack of stimulation.

Adam (6:37): I see.

Dr. Grandin (6:38): You see, it’s like a different cause.

Adam (6:39): I see.

Dr. Grandin (6:40): But the behaviors have similarities. Now when I was a little kid, my parents would let me do a half an hour, an hour a day of some repetitive behavior, and that would help calm me down. But the problem is, if you let the kid do it all the time, he’s not going to develop. And one of the big problems I’m seeing today with kids labeled autistic, maybe ADHD, there’s a lot of crossover with ADHD, getting addicted to video games. I’m not suggesting banning video games, but they need to be severely limited to about an hour a day, and we’ve got to get these kids out doing other things. I was never allowed to become a recluse in my room. I was out doing things.

Adam (7:15): Before we started recording, today …

Dr. Grandin (7:17): I thought we were recording already.

Adam (7:19): Well we are recording.

Dr. Grandin (7:20): Ok.

Adam (7:20): But before we started recording, you were asking me kind of some discovery questions. How do I know when I’m talking or working with someone who experiences autism?

Dr. Grandin (7:33): Well, there’s a point it might have very mild autism, it’s just a socially awkward person. And there’s a point when that’s just normal variation. When I was out all the time working on the big construction projects with the meat industry, I worked with a lot of skilled millwrights and skilled tradespeople that I know are mildly on the autism spectrum. In its milder forms, it’s called geeks and nerds. It’s called Silicon Valley. Then you get into the more severe forms, you can end up with somebody, no matter how much therapy they get, cannot dress themselves. You see, it’s a continuum of traits. Mild forms just part of normal variation. Now the thing the person needs is kind of socially awkward, is they have to be taught social skills, like training sombody in a foreign country. You can’t take anything for granted. You have to explain to them that they should be saying please and thank you. You have to show them how to shake hands. Demonstrate the distance that people stand away from each other. If they call a colleague stupid, you need to pull them aside and explain that’s simply not ok. Fortunately there were some people that did that with me. Now, a lot of the people of my generation, the geeks and nerds, ended up going into good careers. One of the reasons for that is social rules were taught in a much more rigid way in the 50’s and 60’s than they are now. And the autistic kids are having a lot more problems with that than the so-called normal kids.

Adam (8:53): I want to, I want you to teach me and advise me and tell me information that I can share with some of my dog training students and people that I care about who have a family member with autism. And I want you to teach me about if having a pet dog can help someone.

Dr. Grandin (9:12): For some kids dogs are the best things. I have observed there’s three different ways that kids with an autism label react to dogs. Best buds, love them, absolutely love them, they just understand each other. Then the second type, kind of afraid of the dog at first, but then they warm up. And then there’s a third type, where I don’t think the dog’s appropriate. And it’s usually sensory. They don’t like the dog because you never know when it’s going to bark. You don’t like the dog because maybe he smell, his smell. You see, that’s a sensory thing and then the dog’s not appropriate. Now, other things we need to be teaching kids with autism and a lot of kids is just responsibility. Feeding the dog, taking care of the dog …

Adam (9:52): The life skills that come with it.

Dr. Grandin (9:53): The life skills that are associated with it. And the biggest problem that I’m seeing with an autism label or some other label, when they get to be sixth grade or so, in high school is that they’re not learning how to work. Our generation, we had paper routes. We need to find substitutes for paper routes. Start teaching kids in middle school how to work. When I was thirteen, Mother set up a sewing job just in the neighborhood and I took apart dresses and hemmed them. I saw a farmer’s market just down the road here. Perfect thing for an eleven year old, a twelve year old to go out and help with those farmer market booths. They need to learn how to do tasks on a schedule outside the home. And the instant they’re legal, get into the real economy. When I was fifteen, I was cleaning nine horse stalls everyday and basically running a horse barn. That teaches the discipline and responsibility of having a job.

Adam (10:48): What other advice could you give to a parent who’s thinking about getting their child a dog?

Dr. Grandin (10:53): Well, does the kid like dogs? So, you might want to try out the neighbor’s Labrador Retriever. The other thing I’ve found with many things, whether it’s kids liking dogs or something you go into for a career, you gotta expose the kid or the person to things. You don’t know what you like or not, don’t like until you get exposed to it. I’d like to see a lot more young people getting into dog training. But somebody’s got to expose them to it. I get asked all the time how I ended up in the beef cattle industry. When my mother got remarried when I was fourteen, that brought a ranch into the family. And then I went out on my aunt’s ranch, and I took guests on trail rides, and I waited on some tables and did a whole bunch of other things out there. I got exposed to the cattle industry. That’s why I got interested.

Adam (11:38): So let’s say someone’s child who experiences autism does like dogs and says, “I want one.” Then what …

Dr. Grandin (11:45): Well, if he’s a kid, if he’s a kid that is verbal enough to say he wants one, you’ve got to remember autism has all these levels. Ok, you can have a little kid like me that age four looked absolutely horrible. And you work really hard on the little kids, some of them get fully verbal, others do not. So autism sort of goes into three levels, the kids get older. Fully verbal, learns to read and write at a normal level, maybe genius, maybe needs to go to Silicon Valley. Certainly capable of holding a job. Then you have a moderate level, maybe only partially verbal, but there’s a lot of jobs they can do. And then you have a very severe level where maybe dressing themselves is difficult, because you may have epilepsy on top of the autism.

Adam (12:25): How could a dog help someone at that level?

Dr. Grandin (12:28): Well, those situations the dog, sometimes they tether the kid to the dog so that the dog doesn’t, the kid doesn’t run off. But let’s say a fully verbal kid wants to have a dog. Yeah, I’d get him a dog. But I’m also going to teach him the responsibility of taking care of it, and feeding it, and walking it, and playing with it. A dog is a responsibility and that would be a perfect time to teach him that. Maybe they need to go to dog training class. We need to get kids interested in doing something other than sitting in their room playing video games. Because, what I’m seeing, are perfectly verbal kids, there’s two paths I’m seeing. I’m going to a lot of meetings and talking to a lot of parents. One kid learns how to work before he graduates from high school, goes on to college, gets jobs, does really well. Another kid holes up in his room, a recluse playing video games. We’ve got to work on preventing that from happening. And if you’ve got a kid that is holed up in his room playing video games, we need to work on weaning him off slowly. Maybe doing something with dogs, maybe doing auto mechanics. I’ve been pushing a lot of skilled trades, because there is a huge amount of jobs available in the skilled trades that are not going to get replaced in the future by computers.

Adam (13:40): Have you ever had a dog and if so, did having a dog help you?

Dr. Grandin (13:44): Well, we had dogs when I was a kid, but the animal that helped me the most was horses.

Adam (13:49): How?

Dr. Grandin (13:50): Well, rode horses, I got them ready for show, my whole life has revolved around horses. Another reason why horses helped me is that I had friends with the shared interest of horses. I was bullied and teased in high school, and it’s really important to get into activities where there is a shared interest. And my friends all liked horses. And we liked the real horses, and we liked the plastic model horses and we’d decorate those.

Adam (14:19): Could you recommend any other books or sources for parents who are thinking about getting their children with autism a dog. Could you point them towards anything they should check out?

Dr. Grandin (14:27): Well I have a book called The Way I See It, which is a lot of little short chapters and there’s a chapter in there about service dogs and I talk about the three ways that kids respond to dogs. I’ve got my animal books. Animals in Translation, and in Animals in Translation, I explain how being a visual thinker helped me understand animals.

Adam (14:46): What do mean by that? What do you mean that you’re a visual thinker?

Dr. Grandin (14:48): Everything I think about is a picture. Ok, like right now, I just mentioned a book. I saw the cover of it. I’m seeing pictures of dogs coming up in my head. I don’t think in words. It’s all pictures. I store like snapshots.

Adam (15:03): My conversation with Dr. Grandin continues in about forty-five seconds. Check out pictures of our visit and leave us a comment in dogsinourworld.com. You can also let us know what you think of this show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes. Doing so helps more people find the show. Coming up in the second half, Temple Grandin will continue to talk about how we can help young people and also give us further insight into how some animals and humans think.

Adam (15:37): Break

1:35 Adam: And continue to tell me a little more about yourself, please.

1:38 Dr. Grandin: Well, I’ve been at Colorado State University for twenty-six years, I’m teaching a class in livestock behavior and cattle handling. I’ve done a lot of work with the meat industry to improve humane treatment of animals. I’ve got some books on animal behavior, Animals in Translation, Animals Make Us Human, both available on Amazon. I have a lot of books on livestock. I’ve got Humane Livestock Handling for large ranches and I’ve just come out with a new one that’s got beautiful photographs. It would be really good for 4-H kids on handling cattle, pigs, sheep and goats. It’s called Temple Grandin’s Guide to Working with Farm Animals. That just came out. And then I’ve got textbooks, Improving Animal Welfare: A Practical Approach. If you’re really into the science, I’ve got Genetics and the Behavior of Domestic Animals, but that’s an expensive textbook.

2:26 Adam: Anything else that people might know you for?

2:28 Dr. Grandin: I do a lot of talks on autism, because when I was a young child, I had all the full blown symptoms of autism. No speech, didn’t talk until I was age four. Fortunately, I had very good early therapy. I can’t emphasize enough. If you have a young kid who’s not talking, you’ve got to start working with him. Teaching him how to talk, teaching him turn taking. These kids have got to learn how to wait and take their turns. Autism goes from somebody who remains nonverbal and maybe has trouble dressing themselves, all the way up to Thomas Edison and Einstein. Einstein didn’t talk until age three. It’s a big, big, big continuum. See, a little bit of autism, you’ve gotta socially awkward person who may be just absolutely brilliant in the tech industry. Too much of that trait, and you’ve got a, you know, severe handicap. And there’s a parallel with animals. I read a fascinating study that was done over in Europe, looking at differences between wolves and dogs. And a brain can either be more social-emotional or it can be more cognitive and thinking. And we’ve bred the dog to be super social-emotional towards us. And in a test that was done in Europe, they had a wolf watch another wolf open up a puzzle box to get some food. And the wolf does it easily. But, the domestic dog is so busy asking us for help and looking for us for help, it doesn’t pay enough attention to open the box. I also found another fascinating journal article on more social animals versus more solitary animals. Like, for example, lions are more social than panthers. And again, there are parallels here with autism. Now, are panthers defective? Absolutely not. You see, in the mild forms it’s just normal variation. A brain can be more thinking or a brain can be more social-emotional.

4:19 Adam: Is it possible that animals could experience autism?

4:23 Dr. Grandin: Well, if you put an animal in a very deprived environment, you can start getting repetitive behavior that resembles some of the repetitive behavior that many autistic kids do. And one of the reasons why sometimes autistic kids do repetitive behavior, is they do it to shut out an onslaught of sensory overstimulation. When I was a little kid, we used to go on a ferry, just like ferry you got here. And when the horn went off, I’d fling myself on the deck and start screaming, ’cause it hurt my ears. Today, I’m happy to say, I was right there in front of the horn and all I did was flinch a little bit. But when I was a little kid, it was like a dentist drill going into a nerve and so I’d do the repetitive behavior to block out some of these things. A dog that you keep locked up in a kennel all the time gets kind of stir crazy. You’ll have a lion that will pace. I’m not going to say that’s autism, but it’s one of ah symptoms that you see in both of situations.

5:16 Adam: So, I work in an animal shelter and in, what’s the a, what’s the real word for it? Stereoptic behavior?

5:22 Dr. Grandin: That’s called stereotypic. You know what dogs in an animal shelter need? I have a student, former student, Krista Coppola. Her PhD thesis work, and we’ve got it published in the Physiology & Behavior journal, and Krista found that dogs that she played with, you know, for forty-five minutes had lower salivary cortisol compared to the dog just chucked into the kennel. So what do animals in an animal shelter need? Each dog needs a volunteer to come in for thirty, forty-five minutes a day. Quality play and fun time with a person. Dogs need people. And I’ve gone into kind of junky animal shelters, they’re all chain link fence, that had a really good volunteer program and you didn’t have all the barking. What dogs in kennels that don’t get enough contact with people go crazy.

6:13 Adam: And are you saying you see a parallel between some of these repetitive behaviors with animals that have spent too much time in their enclosure, and there’s a parallel to the repetitive behaviors that we see with people with autism sometimes?

6:25 Dr. Grandin: Well people with autism do it because the sensory environment is overstimulating. So they do it to block out an overstimuli. The dog does it due to the lack of stimulation.

6:37 Adam: I see.

6:38 Dr. Grandin: You see, it’s like a different cause. 6:39 Adam: I see.

6:40 Dr. Grandin: But the behaviors have similarities. Now when I was a little kid, my parents would let me do a half an hour, an hour a day of some repetitive behavior, and that would help calm me down. But the problem is, if you let the kid do it all the time, he’s not going to develop. And one of the big problems I’m seeing today with kids labeled autistic, maybe ADHD, there’s a lot of crossover with ADHD, getting addicted to video games. I’m not suggesting banning video games, but they need to be severely limited to about an hour a day, and we’ve got to get these kids out doing other things. I was never allowed to become a recluse in my room. I was out doing things.

7:15 Adam: Before we started recording, today …

7:17 Dr. Grandin: I thought we were recording already. 7:19 Adam: Well we are recording.

7:20 Dr. Grandin: Ok.

7:20 Adam: But before we started recording, you were asking me kind of some discovery questions. How do I know when I’m talking or working with someone who experiences autism?

7:33 Dr. Grandin: Well, there’s a point it might have very mild autism, it’s just a socially awkward person. And there’s a point when that’s just normal variation. When I was out all the time working on the big construction projects with the meat industry, I worked with a lot of skilled millwrights and skilled tradespeople that I know are mildly on the autism spectrum. In its milder forms, it’s called geeks and nerds. It’s called Silicon Valley. Then you get into the more severe forms, you can end up with somebody, no matter how much therapy they get, cannot dress themselves. You see, it’s a continuum of traits. Mild forms just part of normal variation. Now the thing the person needs is kind of socially awkward, is they have to be taught social skills, like training sombody in a foreign country. You can’t take anything for granted. You have to explain to them that they should be saying please and thank you. You have to show them how to shake hands. Demonstrate the distance that people stand away from each other. If they call a colleague stupid, you need to pull them aside and explain that’s simply not ok. Fortunately there were some people that did that with me. Now, a lot of the people of my generation, the geeks and nerds, ended up going into good careers. One of the reasons for that is social rules were taught in a much more rigid way in the 50’s and 60’s than they are now. And the autistic kids are having a lot more problems with that than the so-called normal kids.

8:53 Adam: I want to, I want you to teach me and advise me and tell me information that I can share with some of my dog training students and people that I care about who have a family member with autism. And I want you to teach me about if having a pet dog can help someone.

9:12 Dr. Grandin: For some kids dogs are the best things. I have observed there’s three different ways that kids with an autism label react to dogs. Best buds, love them, absolutely love them, they just understand each other. Then the second type, kind of afraid of the dog at first, but then they warm up. And then there’s a third type, where I don’t think the dog’s appropriate. And it’s usually sensory. They don’t like the dog because you never know when it’s going to bark. You don’t like the dog because maybe he smell, his smell. You see, that’s a sensory thing and then the dog’s not appropriate. Now, other things we need to be teaching kids with autism and a lot of kids is just responsibility. Feeding the dog, taking care of the dog …

9:52 Adam: The life skills that come with it.

9:53 Dr. Grandin: The life skills that are associated with it. And the biggest problem that I’m seeing with an autism label or some other label, when they get to be sixth grade or so, in high school is that they’re not learning how to work. Our generation, we had paper routes. We need to find substitutes for paper routes. Start teaching kids in middle school how to work. When I was thirteen, Mother set up a sewing job just in the neighborhood and I took apart dresses and hemmed them. I saw a farmer’s market just down the road here. Perfect thing for an eleven year old, a twelve year old to go out and help with those farmer market booths. They need to learn how to do tasks on a schedule outside the home. And the instant they’re legal, get into the real economy. When I was fifteen, I was cleaning nine horse stalls everyday and basically running a horse barn. That teaches the discipline and responsibility of having a job.

10:48 Adam: What other advice could you give to a parent who’s thinking about getting their child a dog?

10:53 Dr. Grandin: Well, does the kid like dogs? So, you might want to try out the neighbor’s Labrador Retriever. The other thing I’ve found with many things, whether it’s kids liking dogs or something you go into for a career, you gotta expose the kid or the person to things. You don’t know what you like or not, don’t like until you get exposed to it. I’d like to see a lot more young people getting into dog training. But somebody’s got to expose them to it. I get asked all the time how I ended up in the beef cattle industry. When my mother got remarried when I was fourteen, that brought a ranch into the family. And then I went out on my aunt’s ranch, and I took guests on trail rides, and I waited on some tables and did a whole bunch of other things out there. I got exposed to the cattle industry. That’s why I got interested.

11:38 Adam: So let’s say someone’s child who experiences autism does like dogs and says, “I want one.” Then what …

11:45 Dr. Grandin: Well, if he’s a kid, if he’s a kid that is verbal enough to say he wants one, you’ve got to remember autism has all these levels. Ok, you can have a little kid like me that age four looked absolutely horrible. And you work really hard on the little kids, some of them get fully verbal, others do not. So autism sort of goes into three levels, the kids get older. Fully verbal, learns to read and write at a normal level, maybe genius, maybe needs to go to Silicon Valley. Certainly capable of holding a job. Then you have a moderate level, maybe only partially verbal, but there’s a lot of jobs they can do. And then you have a very severe level where maybe dressing themselves is difficult, because you may have epilepsy on top of the autism.

12:25 Adam: How could a dog help someone at that level?

12:28 Dr. Grandin: Well, those situations the dog, sometimes they tether the kid to the dog so that the dog doesn’t, the kid doesn’t run off. But let’s say a fully verbal kid wants to have a dog. Yeah, I’d get him a dog. But I’m also going to teach him the responsibility of taking care of it, and feeding it, and walking it, and playing with it. A dog is a responsibility and that would be a perfect time to teach him that. Maybe they need to go to dog training class. We need to get kids interested in doing something other than sitting in their room playing video games. Because, what I’m seeing, are perfectly verbal kids, there’s two paths I’m seeing. I’m going to a lot of meetings and talking to a lot of parents. One kid learns how to work before he graduates from high school, goes on to college, gets jobs, does really well. Another kid holes up in his room, a recluse playing video games. We’ve got to work on preventing that from happening. And if you’ve got a kid that is holed up in his room playing video games, we need to work on weaning him off slowly. Maybe doing something with dogs, maybe doing auto mechanics. I’ve been pushing a lot of skilled trades, because there is a huge amount of jobs available in the skilled trades that are not going to get replaced in the future by computers.

13:40 Adam: Have you ever had a dog, and if so, did having a dog help you?

13:44 Dr. Grandin: Well, we had dogs when I was a kid, but the animal that helped me the most was horses.

13:49 Adam: How?

13:50 Dr. Grandin: Well, I rode horses, I got them ready for show, my whole life has revolved around horses. Another reason why horses helped me is that I had friends with the shared interest of horses. I was bullied and teased in high school, and it’s really important to get into activities where there is a shared interest. And my friends all liked horses. And we liked the real horses, and we liked the plastic model horses and we’d decorate those.

14:19 Adam: Could you recommend any other books or sources for parents who are thinking about getting their children with autism a dog. Could you point them towards anything they should check out?

14:27 Dr. Grandin: Well I have a book called The Way I See It, which is a lot of little short chapters and there’s a chapter in there about service dogs and I talk about the three ways that kids respond to dogs. I’ve got my animal books. Animals in Translation, and in Animals in Translation, I explain how being a visual thinker helped me understand animals.

14:46 Adam: What do you mean by that? What do you mean that you’re a visual thinker?

14:48 Dr. Grandin: Everything I think about is a picture. Ok, like right now, I just mentioned a book. I saw the cover of it. I’m seeing pictures of dogs coming up in my head. I don’t think in words. It’s all pictures. I store like snapshots.

15:03 Adam: My conversation with Dr. Grandin continues in about forty-five seconds. Check out pictures of our visit and leave us a comment in dogsinourworld.com. You can also let us know what you think of this show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes. Doing so helps more people find the show. Coming up in the second half, Temple Grandin will continue to talk about how we can help young people and also give us further insight into how some animals and humans think.

15:37 Break

Adam (15:37): My conversation with Dr. Grandin continues in about forty-five seconds. Check out pictures of our visit and leave us a comment in dogsinourworld.com. You can also let us know what you think of this show by leaving a rating and review on iTunes. Doing so helps more people find the show. Coming up in the second half, Temple Grandin will continue to talk about how we can help young people and also give us further insight into how some animals and humans think.

Break

Dr. Grandin (16:07): There’s a lot of students that are hungry for doing hands on activities. And they find that they really like doing them. But they’ve got to get exposed to it. I just read an article in Time Magazine just a couple of days ago, on community colleges. And there was some person from the Urban Institute, and he basically said young people today don’t know what they want to do. And I think, now he didn’t give a reason for it, but my reason for it is I don’t think they’re getting exposed to enough different things to figure out what they want to do. And then he talked all about this wonderful community college that they had out in the West where you could study wind turbines, and solar panels, and irrigation systems, and all these interesting things and expose the students to. They could turn into careers.

Adam (16:56): I love it. A friend of this project, this podcast and show here, Margaret asks, she read your book Animals in Translation, and she talked about how you were writing about how both animals and people with autism, or people with autism process emotions similar to how animals process emotion. Do you know what she’s …

Dr. Grandin (17:16): I think most of my interviews, I talk about how animals think more than emotions. Now I do have stuff in my other book, Animals Make Us Human, where Catherine Johnson and I talk about the Jaak Panksepp seven core emotional systems. Like fear, rage, separation distress, seeking, that’s the urge to explore. And of course you’ve got sex, you’ve got mother-young nurturing and play. And I think a lot of these emotional traits are like a music mixing board. Recently I read a book about police dogs, and then I read a book just the other day, a galley proof. It was called, Have Dog Will Travel. It’ll be coming out next year. It’s about a blind person’s experience with guide dogs. And I got to thinking about the kind of dogs described in those two books. And the police dog would be a high seek, low fear. Probably low on the separation distress, low on the sort of the affection sort of trait. Where the Labrador guide dog’s gonna be a low seek – I don’t want it to run after balls, a low fear – don’t want it scared of things, but really lovey dovey and affectionate. You say you’d set the indicators on the music mixing board differently for the guide dog than you would for the police dog. And, I think, in looking at some genomics now, that’s kind of how genetics works. And in Animals Make Us Human, we discuss the Jaak Panksepp emotional traits and those are the things that drive behavior. The other thing I discussed in detail in Animals in Translation was that an animal’s a sensory based thinker.

Adam (18:53): What do you mean by that?

Dr. Grandin (18:54): Well, when I first started my work with cattle, I noticed that they’d be balking at a shadow. Refuse to walk over a shadow, walk over a reflection. A coat on a fence would make them stop. And it was obvious to me to be looking at what cattle were seeing. But it wasn’t obvious to other people. But when I first started doing that in the 70’s, I thought that everybody thought in pictures the way I do. I didn’t know my thinking was different. And then when I did my book, Thinking In Pictures, I started asking people about other ways that people think. And I found out there’s kind of a pattern thinker, there’s also a word thinker. Not everybody with autism thinks in pictures. And I further discussed this in another book I have, The Autistic Brain, where I discuss visual thinking, mathematical thinking, and word thinking. But animals are going to be sensory. In Animals in Translation, I discuss a horse that was terrified of black hats. Because he was abused by a person wearing a black hat. And another person wearing a white hat has no affect on him. You see, it’s a visual memory. Or maybe it’s a certain sound is associated with something bad.

Adam (20:00): Fascinating. Is there anything else that you can share or any other advice you can give to people as they are thinking about how adding a pet dog to the family could help?

Dr. Grandin (20:11): Well, a lot need responsibility and chores, and you get a pet dog that the child needs to learn how to take care of it. You know, brush it, feed it, play with it. It needs to take care of the dog. We need to be teaching this kids responsibility. One of the things I see, especially on the higher end kids where they’re fully verbal, I see the mom doing too much for the kid. Talking for the kid. My mother had a very good sense how to stretch me. Always getting me to do new things, but you don’t just chuck a kid into the deep end of the pool. You’ve got to stretch, and because if you don’t stretch, they don’t develope. And one of the biggest problems I’m seeing now with the fully verbal kids is not learning how to work. I’m seeing them graduate from college and then just have a horrible time in the workplace because they haven’t learned things like get up in the morning and get to work. This is stuff that in the 50’s I was taught this when I was, you know, seven years old and to be on time. And, when I was in highschool, one of the things that really helped me was the fact that for about three years I basically ran a horse barn. I mean I cleaned thousands of horse stalls. And I put the horses in and out and I fed them. And there’s a discipline and a responsibility in doing that. And my parents were not that happy at the time that I did very little studying, but when I look back on it, I was learning how to work.

Adam (21:33): And you were out of your comfort zone, right?

Dr. Grandin (21:34): Yeah, and the start of working the horse barn I went out of my comfort zone, but then I got to loving doing it and I had friends, you know, involved in everything we did with the horses. We were really into, I did English Equitation and I was really into getting the horse ready for the show. And I, so I got friends through activities with horses, but I also learned how to work. And I didn’t realize until five or six years ago how important all that time I spent cleaning those horse stalls was. Because I’m seeing too many kids today, they can’t, they’re unemployable, because they haven’t learned work skills. And I want to get the transition from high school to work done before they graduate. Now, if we have a kid where we have not done that, then we’ve got to slowly wean them out of his room. We give him choices. We give him choices of things to do. Say ok, we’ll try a little auto shop, or maybe we’ll try some other job and you gradually wean him off the video games.

Adam (22:34): Is there anything else you’d like to share with the folks that will be listening to this. Is there anything that I missed …

Dr. Grandin (22:39): I just want you to think about that an animal is a sensory based thinker. You want to understand an animal, get away from verbal language. Another thing about animal minds …

Adam (22:49): What do you mean by that? How can I get away from verbal language?

Dr. Grandin (22:51): Well, he’s going to store pictures in his brain. Specific sounds. Smell sensations. I read an article one time by Oliver Sacks about a guy who took some drug and it made him get smell detail. And he said, well I can imagine what it would be like to be a dog. It’s a world without words. Animals are very much into the tone of voice. One time I was at a really nice dinner party, and they had a beautiful buffet spread out and their dog jumped up on the buffet table and I was the only one that saw it. And I just went, “Eh-Eh!” And he got right back down and slunk away. And I made that sharp sound just as he was ready to get a piece meat. Right before he got it. That’s urgent, and he understood exactly what meant by that.

Adam (23:42): And I’m also kind of seeing a parallel too that if you can practice how to communicate being nonverbal then maybe you can also better communicate with those humans that might be nonverbal around us, too.

Dr. Grandin (23:51): Well, there’s some nonverbal individuals that can actually learn to type. You can have one person who’s nonverbal or they’ve got very severe intellectual challenges, but there’s other people that are nonverbal where they can learn how to type and it’s important to use a tablet. And the reason for using a tablet is the print appears next to the keyboard. Laptops and desktops often don’t work because you’ve got to look up to see where the print is. And there’s a man named Tito Mukhopadhyay and he has a book called, How Can I Talk If My Lips Don’t Move? And he describes a completely sensory jumbled up world, how he couldn’t control his movements. There’s another book by, called The Reason [Why] I Jump by an autistic boy and he’s coming out with a new book this summer that’s going to be a whole much better, describing the jumbled up sensory world. You all know what it’s like when the TV pixelates really badly and it can pixelate so badly that the sound goes out too. That’s the way some people on the severe end of the spectrum experience the sensory world. And when they get tired it gets worse. This is making me think of a very specific hotel that I went to. And at nine o’clock, I turned on a TV show and it pixelated a bit but was watchable. But then as more guests came in, and they put more and more load on that network, by ten o’clock it was absolutely useless. I couldn’t hear any audio at all. The picture was completely just little squares constantly …

Adam (25:25): And you’re saying that’s what some people are seeing up here.

Dr. Grandin (25:27): Yes. Some people with very severe problems, that’s the kind of problem that they’re having. Now, what happened on the TV is the audio went off. But what I think that happens to a lot of people is that the audio will turn into just a horrible jumble like …

Adam (25:41): Overwhelming sound and …

Dr. Grandin (25:42): Overwhelming banging on things and noises.

Adam (25:46): Dr. Grandin, it has been an honor and a pleasure to be able to talk with you and I know you’ve been traveling all day and you’ve got a big day ahead of you. Anything else you want to add as we wrap it up?

Dr. Grandin (25:55): No. I think we’ve talked about a lot of good stuff and I’ve got a lot of books on autism. You can always search them online, you can just using my name, Temple Grandin. Amazon’s got them all, just make sure you search with my name and spell it correctly.

Adam (26:08): And your website is templegrandin.com?

Dr. Grandin (26:09): templegrandin.com or just go on the Amazon websites, put my name in, Temple Grandin, and all the books will be there.

Adam (26:16): It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Dr. Grandin (26:18): Thank you.

Adam (26:19): What a gift and privilege it was to talk with the great Temple Grandin. What a powerful and brilliant human, right? I would like all of you to think about what Dr. Grandin said regarding the importance of volunteers in animal shelters. If you’re interested in working with animals or maybe you’re a student looking for a way to gain some volunteer credit, I recommend researching any local animal shelters in your community and see if they have a volunteer team you can join. Again, I also recommend watching the 2010 HBO biopic of Temple Grandin, starring Claire Danes and Julia Ormond.

Dr. Grandin (26:55): … Emily Gerson Saines and Mick Jackson director and Christopher Monger, the writer. They did a fantastic job putting that project together.

Adam (27:01): I recently rewatched the film on iTunes and it’s still one of my favorite movies. It should also be available on Amazon Prime and the HBO apps. Don’t forget to let us know what you think of today’s show at dogsinourworld.com or leave us a rating and comment in iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I will talk to you soon.

If you enjoyed this episode:

In this episode of Dogs in Our World, host Adam Winston sits down with Julie Forbes, host and producer of the Dog Show with Julie Forbes, to explore the theme of “Dogs and Leadership.” Julie shares her extensive experience in dog training and behavior, emphasizing the importance of non-verbal communication, presence, and emotional tone in effective leadership with dogs. They discuss common misconceptions about leadership styles, including the outdated “alpha” model, and highlight the value of motivation, fun, and individualized approaches tailored to each dog’s unique temperament and needs.

Julie and Adam also explore how lessons learned from working with dogs can translate to human leadership and personal growth. The episode concludes with a focus on self-awareness, authenticity, and the power of being present, offering listeners practical wisdom to enhance their relationships with their dogs and others.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own leadership styles and consider how they can foster healthier, more respectful connections with their canine companions. The episode also provides information on where to listen to Julie’s Dog Show and invites the audience to stay connected through Dogs in Our World’s social channels and newsletter.

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

Introduction

Welcome to episode number five of Dogs in Our World. We’re going learn about the
topic of Dogs and Leadership. Stay tuned at the end of today’s show for some special
announcements I have to share with you about upgrades and new offerings from
dogsinourworld.com
Ok. The first part of today’s show will revisit a familiar term you may remember
from our first episode and we’ll also better understand why leadership is necessary. In
part 2, we’ll talk about the importance of motivation and we’ll briefly address another
JULIE FORBES:
DOGS AND LEADERSHIP
5
58
huge debate in the dog training world, and we’ll learn about the importance of having
fun. In the final part of today’s show, our guest will share with us ways that we can position
ourselves to be better leaders.
Ok. Let’s get started…

Part 1: Dogs and Leadership

Julie: My name is Julie Forbes. I’m the host and producer of the Dog Show with Julie Forbes, which is a local radio show here in Western Washington and also a podcast on iTunes and on our website, which is dogradioshow.com, SoundCloud, and on our Facebook page. I’ve been on-air for 8 years, I think, now. It was 2009.

Adam: I actually did the math. I looked at your website and, yes, and I did the math. It’s been 8 years.

Julie: 424 episodes I think. It’s so fun. Like you, I like to talk about dogs. And, it’s interesting, because a lot of times people will ask “it’s an hour show? don’t you run out of things to talk about?” Actually, it’s the opposite. The more people that I talk with, the more there is to talk about. It’s an educational show. Sort of an intellectual conversation, but all somehow connected to dogs. I also work locally here in Seattle and somewhat via skype helping people with training and behavior. My company is called sensitive dog.

Adam: And do you have a website?

Julie: sensitivedog.com.

Adam: Do you have any other books or anything that the listeners can check out if they want to learn more about you?

Julie: So, I am just about finished writing my first book. It’s been almost 5 years of working and researching on it. And, it’s really truly just about done. I’ve said that many times over the years. It’s a humbling experience writing a book. But, I’m excited about that and it’s a bit of a hybrid of the book. I weave my years of experience working with people and their dogs. And, also my own personal experience as a human being. As well as research that I did mostly on leadership, which is what we’ll be talking about today. And, what dogs can teach us about leadership and ourselves. Because they’re non-verbal, to be effective with dogs, we have to be aware of our non-verbal communication, which means being aware of and in our bodies, which is not a given for people. Our relationship with our bodies is complex as well. It’s geared more towards women, but the conversation certainly isn’t. So, it’s been a challenge to weave all that information together in a way that makes sense and that’s what I finally figured out.

As Julie and I began our conversation, she immediately addressed a topic that should be familiar to our listeners. Remember when Erik, from Wolf Haven International, and I talked about the term Alpha and how viewing ourselves or dogs as such can essentially lead to an unbalanced relationship? I also said that the subject is nearly unavoidable when learning about dogs. Here’s Julie’s take…

Julie: Well, working with dog behavior sort of requires a focus on the topic of leadership and really the question of it. Because, in this industry, and I’m sure you know with your experience in training as well, the industry is not regulated. It’s trying to be regulated, but it’s not regulated for better or worse. There’s a lot of confusion and a lot of disagreement around what is right in leadership as it pertains to dogs. So, you know the word you hear a lot is “alpha”, which has a negative connotation to it now. There’s a lot of pushback, which makes perfect sense. There’s some interesting history around that as far as the ideas that were marketed in the context of our relationship with dogs and sort of looking at models of wolf packs and deriving how we should be with dogs and based off that. But, the research that was done and the model that was taken from that particular research was done on captive wolves. So, they were forced pack. And this was spelled out actually very clearly in Temple Grandin’s book Animals Make Us Human.

Adam: And episode one of Dogs in Our World. (laughs)

Julie: Nice. So, it’s interesting that in forced packs there is more of a rigid hierarchy that forms, because they’re not related…

Julie: So, this whole idea of Alpha and this sort of ladder structure of leadership, which you can see, in this country anyway, applied everywhere. Corporations, Religion

Adam: School.

Julie: Exactly. And, um, and then in the dog training world. And, it’s interesting to me why the research done on captive wolves was the one marketed to the general public and not the research done on wolves in the wild. Because, imagine the difference. What a different conversation we would be in in the world of the dog training, if it wasn’t “alpha”, but more of a parental understanding. More of a parental dynamic, which we can relate to. There’s ways that can get us into trouble.

Julie: Dogs aren’t human children, but there’s a lot of those dynamics that are really natural. You are responsible for your dog’s wellbeing. You are therefore the one in charge. Whether you like it or not, that is your role. They need us to be. This is a human world and lot of dogs would feel overwhelmed, if they felt like they were in charge even if they tried to be, just like kids. So, that’s kind of why did I focus on this. Because, it’s part of the conversation in coaching people in their relationship with dogs.

Adam: If you’re listening, right now, and thinking to yourself “well, I don’t have a dog” or “I’m not in a position of leadership”. Then, I want you think about how nearly every time Julie mentions the word “dogs” in this episode about Leadership, you can likely get away with replacing the word “dogs” with “humans”. As I’ve said before, this show is for everyone whether you have a dog or not. As we continue, think about how the stuff we’re talking about and how it can be applied to those of you who are not just dog owners, but maybe parents or employees.

Adam: I really want to learn and I want to share with everybody who’s listening about how we could either be better leaders or how we can better work with those that we serve.

Julie: Mmhmm. Yeah. And that alone is sort of a philosophy of leadership where you are of service to those you lead. Versus maybe a polar opposite would be a bully type style. I’m going to keep you down so that I maintain my position at the top. That’s rooted in insecurity. It’s really not authentic true leadership. I think there’s a lot more out about bullying types of leadership. It’s unfortunately effective, because it targets people that are afraid and that’s how the bully stays in power.

Adam: And leadership is a skill that has to be practiced, right. If we’re someone who hasn’t had much experience as a leader or in leadership positions. Do we have to be leaders?

Julie: Depends on the dogs. Some dogs don’t need much. They don’t test boundaries much. They’re just easy. They’re easy going. They don’t have much in the way of challenges. They’re happy when someone new comes over to the house. They’re not reactive on leash. The things that many dogs are challenged with. It really depends on the individual. You could turn it to the human world. Well, does a child need a parent to be in charge? Well, yeah. If the child is sick, who pays for it? Who acquires the food? Who pays for it? Who drives the car? It’s a model of nature. Parental role is that you are in charge of. You are responsible for. And so, given that. yes, you are. How much you’re going to have to play that part, depends on the dog. And people are different just as dogs are. Some people are natural leaders and that’s easy.

Julie: Other people maybe aren’t natural leaders or just haven’t practiced. What’s great about our dogs is that they give us an opportunity to practice those skills in a safer context than with people.

Julie: The first thing I would say is that it depends on the dog. Every dog

Welcome back. In the first part of the show, we met Julie Forbes. She talked about the importance of leadership and how each of the dogs in our world are unique. I also challenged all of us to think about how today’s show can hopefully teach us a little bit about ourselves and how to be better leaders.

Now, I want to look at some of the things we should be cautious of, such as using fear as a motivational tool. Have you ever had a boss who was big on results, but had very little in the respect department? I once had a boss who would threaten us with unemployment, if we didn’t work through the night to meet an unexpected and increased quota. At the time, I feared losing that job, and my boss would use that fear to motivate me. Those threats, among other things, did little to instill respect and a healthy organizational culture. Here’s Julie, again, helping me see how dogs can teach us to be better leaders.

Julie: I think a great quality of leadership is to inspire greatness in those who work for you. To nurture those who you’re responsible for to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. Versus keeping others down or beneath you and focusing more on that aspect of it. I don’t think it’s as effective to inspire work or productivity by keeping people down or feeling bad about themselves. Relying on fear to maintain a position a power, I don’t think is good leadership.

Adam: I see that parallel between how I’ve been treated as a worker. Trying to be motivated by fear as a tool. And I see people using fear as a tool to kind of teach or control their dogs. It creeps me out.

Julie: It’s all over the place these days.

Adam: Can you think of a healthy situation where we should use fear as a leadership tool?

Julie: Understanding that there’s a line. I think there’s an appreciation of respect towards a leader. Understanding that this is the person in charge. Understanding that there are expectations and there could be consequences. But, that’s not… You know, when I think of dogs and fear, I think of an emotional response. When you’re in a state of being fearful, it will make you have trouble making mental connections. Your ability to learn is really drastically impacted, if you are in the presence of fear and anxiety.

I recently had a dog training client who said to me, “ah, it’s all about using treats.” I said, “no, it’s all about incentive”. I’ll ask most dogs to ‘sit’, before opening the front door and going for a walk. I typically don’t need food or any other type of reward, in that situation, because the reward of having the door opened and beginning the walk is enough incentive for the dog to comply. Of course, some dogs don’t like going for walks and others need very little, if any, incentive to sit. Here’s Julie talking more about using motivation when providing leadership.

Julie: In the context of business and managing employees. How do you motivate? That’s another doozy. Talking about motivation is something we take for granted. Oh, dogs love to please. My dog loves to please. Mmm. Your dog is interested in themselves and what works for them first, generally. How much your dog enjoys being worked with is genetic. Is it a herding breed or is it a scent hound? Cause I can guarantee you a vast majority of the herding dogs will be excited to just be told what to do. My cattle dog, for example, is like “yes!”. “Levi! do this or do that and “yes”!” you know, psyched. He’ll just put his ears back and do it, because he’s super excited. My dachshund, scent hound, her job description is to track scent. Your job is to keep up. A terrier, for example, will go into the hole and kill the animal in the hole, versus a herding breed where the job description is “go right, go left”. You’re not telling a terrier “do this, do that”, while they’re killing a rat, for example.

Adam: Interesting.

Julie: That part is over-applied that “dogs love to please”. Hmm. Dogs are paying attention to the feedback they’re getting in their environment and what works for them.

Adam: And different people are motivated by different things. People have different skills and abilities that need to be harnessed by good leadership or with good leadership.

Julie: Exactly. Recognizing what is your skill set as an individual and therefore what job am I going to expect you to do.

Adam: I view myself as an impatient person. It can sometimes be one of my downfalls, but other times it contributes to my personal drive. It definitely is a down fall for me when my impatience with people causes me to become reactive or short tempered. I have spent a lot of time around a wide variety of dogs and I can say that they have taught me a lot about patience. And, as Julie is about to tell us, the importance of setting the emotional tone.

Julie: Commonly when people don’t get what they ask for they start to panic a little bit. Go over to the dog and try to catch the dog. And, your dog is basically controlling you. You’re freaking out.

Adam: And maybe, they’re getting a “razz” out of you too.

Julie: I’ve thrown you off, without even doing anything. That’s not a strong presence. How easily someone is gotten to react is not a sign of someone I would want in charge of me.

Adam: yeah, the reactive boss, or the micromanaging boss.

Julie: “ahh!” What’s going on? I want calm and thoughtful. I feel confident in my ability to ultimately get what I ask for. You’re asking another individual to make a choice. That’s something you don’t get enough of in training. We talked about motivation. What motivates one individual over another is a really important thing to understand about your dog as individual. Why should your dog want to work for you? Because dogs love to please? No. Why? What is the nature of your relationship together? Do you have fun together? Does your dog feel good when he or she does something for you? Do you let them know or do you take it for granted? Then, really focus on when they misbehave and that’s where they kind of get more attention. So, there’s a lot there. But, the emotional tone is…I really love getting to coach people through that and watch people practice it. One of the ways to really express power is to set the emotional tone. This is how this is going to go. If you don’t do what I ask, am I going to change my emotional tone? Or, am I going to just stay on it and get it. Work through it and ultimately follow through without changing how I’m being really drastically. Because, that would be the dog really throwing you off. Are you just chasing the dog around the room? Then, the dog starts to have the most fun.

Another controversial subject that I find nearly unavoidable as a dog trainer and dog welfare professional is the debate over the use of corrections. Corrections can range from using physical force, a shock collar, simply saying eh-eh when a dog presents an undesirable behavior. I’m weary of anyone who advocates using physical force, or what I dramatically refer to as “electro-shock therapy” to train a dog. But, it’s also my opinion that modern American dog training has also overreacted a bit in an attempt to distance itself from the old-school alpha dominance style of the past. Not that the Alpha, or dominance, approach isn’t still very much alive. Yes, we should teach dogs desirable behaviors, so we can set them up for success. But, is it wrong to communicate to a dog, or person, when they’re about to do something potentially undesirable?

Julie: The most important way that dogs are understood as an individual in this context is around the use of corrections. Which is the biggest way that the industry is in conflict is around corrections and consequences. There are sort of two ends of the spectrum. We’re not acknowledging wrong choices…

Adam: Which I think relates very heavily to leadership.

Julie: Sure. In parenting styles, too. “don’t ever tell your dog “no”. Well, dogs correct each other. It’s ok. It’s just that…

Adam: You can pick whatever word or sound you want, too. That’s the beauty of it.

Julie: It doesn’t matter. How are you going to set boundaries? How does a dog communicate to another dog not take their bone? They growl and snap. “Oh no. my dog is being aggressive.” It’s just the dog is communicating in a way that’s natural to the dog. Or, it’s communicating to the other dog to stop humping them. They turn and swing their bodies. It’s not all positive. The world isn’t all positive. Dogs aren’t all positive. And, it’s ok. We can set boundaries in a way that isn’t abusive and that is sensitive to the dog. Cause if you over correct, then you freak them out and you don’t have their brain, so you can’t teach them anything, because now they’re nervous. So, you have to know who you’re working with. Some dogs are very sensitive to body language and corrections. Others, not so much. They’re like “out of my way!” and trying to blow past you.

Adam: Big goofs.

Julie: Yeah, that’s why we normally come in with a low level of intensity with the dial turned down and then get to know the individual that we’re working with.

As we talk about being leaders and avoiding the pitfalls of unhealthy leadership approaches, I often tell clients to think about their favorite teachers in school. Usually, those teachers provided a place where we could both express ourselves and have fun while learning. Like everyone, I have bad days and sometimes allow my impatience to get the best of me, but one of the main reasons I enjoy working with dogs, is because it’s fun. Dog training should be fun. In fact, as a personal piece of advice from myself to all you dog owners out there, if you’re ever working with a dog trainer or similar professional and they aren’t instilling a sense of fun in you and the dog, then I recommend finding someone who does.

Julie: I am at my most brilliant when I’m having fun. So, I want dog training…. All I want to do is have fun…ever. For me that’s what it’s all about.

Adam: My worst dog training days are when I realize that I lost sight of that.

Julie: Chaser the border collie who was taught over 1,000 words. She was also taught common nouns, so she could name things. She was also taught verbs and adjectives. How this dog was taught language is something that hasn’t been accomplished prior to this. John Pilley, the retired psychology professor who taught his dog “Chaser” all of these words entirely through playing. If we talk about motivation for work, which is inspiring work as leadership. Often times in leadership you’re trying to motivate people to do things for you or be this or that for you. Fun and play is lot of it.

Adam: That’s why you see a lot of this stuff now days with the google campuses.

Julie: Game rooms.

Adam: Game rooms and free snacks.

Julie: Exactly.

Coming up in the final part of the show, Julie Forbes will share with us the importance of being present and self-aware. And, how these mindful states can help us be better leaders. Back after this.

Welcome back to the final part of this episode. One of the biggest takeaways from my conversation with Julie Forbes is the importance of being present. I think her advice could also help me as I work to harness my impatience.
Julie: You know being present is powerful.
Adam: What do you mean by that?
Julie: Being present. Well, we could probably do a show just on that…
Adam: Ok. Let’s do that.
Julie: That’s something that dogs really provide us an opportunity to be present in a world that moves so fast. And one of the pieces of coaching that I will give to people when I’m in the presence of them and their dog and coaching them to educate their dog. And this could be in the context of basic obedience training, which is different than behavior work. Obedience training is kind of like school, like education. People talk and move so fast Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! It’s like, oh my gosh. If someone was talking to me like that, I would be inclined to listen for very long.
Adam: That’s the first thing I do in my classes. We play a little game, you know, “the name game”. They can only say the name of their dog once, but they have to come up with some sort of sound or way to get the dog’s attention. But if you repeat yourself, then you lose your round.
Julie: I think there’s also an attachment to the outcome. It’s not the destination, it’s the journey. When a dog is new to the training process, especially, being really present to the dog’s learning and thought process is one of the best ways to get to know your dog. Especially that the nature of our relationship has been working together for tens of thousands of years until very recently. I call it the unemployment epidemic in our society and a lot of them are really bored. It’s the down! down! down! mentality. I call it the “doing versus being”.
I later asked Julie to expand on what she meant by “doing versus being”.
Julie: Meditation, for example, would be a great practice in being. Asking your dog to do something that he or she knows how to do and just giving it a few seconds, before saying something, or doing something, to get your dog to do it. Actually, what’s more powerful is to just be, with your dog, and listen to the non-verbal communication. Because, they’re not going to verbally process. “Oh yeah, you said that to me before, but not with a big hand signal this time and I’m used to that.” Ok. But, then they do it. So, they’re not going to verbally process, because they’re dogs. But, they have a thought process. So, being with that process and letting the dog actually connect the dots, actually strengthens their ability to have a thought process. Which is important when you start working them around distractions. Talking about leadership. It’s not what you say, it’s your actions and also how you are. Leaders set the emotional tone. So, if I’m like “sit, sit, sit, sit”. It’s like oh my god, why are you so amped up and panicked. What is happening right now? What is different. Versus, “hey, sit”. And it just feels different. It creates the emotional charge of the environment. I mean that’s just not leadership. That’s power.
One of the things I’m always quick to teach my clients is that dogs have different temperaments. Some dogs are timid and shy and take a little longer to warm up to new people. Other dogs are very bold and have zero stranger danger. Sometimes I see people jump to conclusions and make broad assumptions about a dog that are completely off base.
For example, just because a rescue dog is fearful or timid around new people, doesn’t mean that it was abused by a previous owner. Also, if I had a dollar for every time someone tells me that a dog doesn’t like me, because I’m a man, I’d be rich. Alright, I wouldn’t be rich, but I hear it all the time. I’m not saying that there aren’t any dogs in our world who don’t like men. I’m just saying that I think sometimes we project and give dogs labels and histories that aren’t helpful or applicable to the animal.
Julie: In communication with dogs, the more self-awareness you are and the more conscious you are of yourself, especially your emotions, the better you will be at communicating with dogs, because the clearer we are. For example, projection. Being aware of…
Adam: What do you mean by projection?
Julie: Projecting your own feelings on to another. So, it’s uh, we do it all the time and it’s kind of a bummer. Well, ok. Fear of the dog not liking you, if you set a boundary. It doesn’t have to do with the dog, I guarantee you that. Dogs actually really like it, when there are clear boundaries and communication.
Adam: They like structure.
Julie: Yeah. With respect, of course, and love and fun and all that good stuff. Just as kids like to think, generally, that there is a larger presence than them? It helps them to relax. So, the more self-awareness we have, the better people we are. And we’re not run by our unconscious agendas. And run by our insecurities.
It’s a real honor and pleasure to learn from someone like Julie Forbes. I think she and I both share an interest in learning about ourselves, other people, and how the dogs in our world help facilitate it all. I think learning about ourselves and dogs is empowering and as I’ve told you before, it leads me to new areas of interest and understanding. It also helps me better understand Julie when she talks about…
Julie: Personal power, regardless of whether you’re in a leadership position at work or in life or wherever. If you have a dog, you are to a degree depending on your dog. This sense of personal power and authenticity. Being authentically connected and being authentically who you are and brining that authentic self to your relationship, or whatever it is, I think is a huge piece of being powerful, because you are you. You’re fully you. You’re not trying to be somebody else. You’re not holding yourself back, because you’re afraid of what this person is going to think. Or afraid of being different. That’s something that I can certainly relate to, personally. And, gratefully so as I approach my 40th birthday, this year, I don’t fear that nearly as much as I did, when I was a 20 years ago. Who better to be authentically expressed without being judged and that’s part of what makes that relationship so safe. We also, again you know, need to…uh…keep tabs on our ourselves and on our dogs. The clearer we are emotionally. The better we take care of ourselves and stress levels in life. Because, dogs, unfortunately, sort of absorb all of that. The more we help ourselves, the more we help our dogs too.
Adam: The more we help ourselves, the more we help our dogs too.
Julie: mm-hmm.
Adam: I’m going to remember that one.
Julie: For sure.
Adam: That’s a soundbite.
Julie: Yeah.
Adam: When and where can people listen to the dog show?
Julie: Live, Wednesdays at 2PM pacific time on alternative talk am radio 1150. Also, you can listen to the podcast on iTunes and we post our shows on our Facebook page as well. It’s the dog show with Julie Forbes. So, there’s over 400 shows awaiting to be downloaded for free.
Adam: Ok.
Cue Bed Music – Outro
Thanks for listening to my conversation with Julie Forbes about Dogs and Leadership. If you’re a listener who has a dog, think about how you provide them with leadership? Does your dog need a lot of leadership and management? Are you finding healthy ways to motivate and work with your dog? And are you able to create boundaries? How can all of us practice being present and more self-aware? One thing Julie and I talked about, but I’ll have to save for a later date is the importance of body language when communicating with dogs. Sheesh, it’s so hard cramming everything I learn from our guests into just one episode. Thank you, again, to Julie Forbes for sharing with us. I’m sure she’ll let us know when her book is published. If everything goes as planned, I should have a very special guest for our next episode. So, I definitely recommend connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Another way to be the first to know about new episodes and updates is by signing up for our newsletter at dogsinourworld.com. Until then, I’ll talk to you soon.

If you enjoyed this episode:

In this episode, Adam Winston sits down with Adam P. Karp, a dedicated animal law attorney, to discuss the evolution of animal law, its impact on dogs and their owners, and the challenges and opportunities in this legal field. Topics include the history of animal law dating back to the Code of Hammurabi, current laws in Washington state, legal battles over animal custody, and the importance of responsible dog ownership.

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

Introduction

Adam: Welcome to episode number four of Dogs in Our World. Today, we will learn about dogs and the law. I think there’s a little something for everyone in this show. We also have a really special featured guest for you to meet. I’m excited to finally get this episode into your ears. I think a lot of you will find something insightful in today’s installment.

The first part of this show will be a very brief history and definition of animal law. The second part of this episode will look at some present-day, dog-related laws and issues. In the final part, and throughout the show, myself and our guest will share some simple tips on how all of us can be on the right side of the law and dog welfare.

As always, we have a lot to cover, so let’s get started.

Part 1: History and Definition of Animal Law
Adam: Today’s show features someone whom I consider to be a hero. In my view, he is an animal welfare warrior. This dude is not playing. I initially set out to find someone who could teach me about Dog Law, and ended up meeting with one of the leading animal law practitioners in the United States.
Karp: Full name. Adam … do you want my middle name?
Adam: I don’t know. Whatever you want people to know.
Karp: Adam P. Karp is fine. I run Animal Law Offices. Solo Practitioner. I’ve been practicing animal law, exclusively, for … I think this is my 19th year.
Adam: Tell me about that book I saw on Amazon?
Karp: So. Carolina Academic Press put out a book that’s part of a series called Understanding “something”. Right? So, Understanding Criminal Law, Understanding Bankruptcy Law, So, they created a new one called Understanding Animal Law and I was asked to write it. So, the book is about 700+ pages. Covers two-dozen or so areas of animal law. Although, that’s certainly not all. There’s probably 12-20 other topics that I could’ve covered, but there just wasn’t enough space and they weren’t going to wait any longer. So, that book really encapsulates a great deal of my experience in litigation and legal research, and will hopefully help law students and anyone who cares about animals and the law. Help them to understand what the field is about, how broad it is, and maybe incorporate it into their day-to-day.
Adam: I know that there may not be a simple answer, but what is Animal Law?
Karp: There are a lot of working definitions. Probably the easiest one is that something about the case turns on the life of an animal. Something about an animal. Whether it’s about how an animal is viewed in a religious sense for instance. How the animal is perceived at a genetic level. How the animal interacts with people at a social level. Something about the animal’s behavior. Whether the animal is a perpetrator, a victim …. a party (chuckles) … that’s another whole push of animal law, which is to try and recognize them as legal persons, but that’s not really what animal law is day-to-day. So, I’d say any type of case where the outcome turns on or something significant in the litigation itself turns on the life of an animal.
Adam: By now, you guys should know how I do. Let’s start at the beginning and allow Mr. Karp to give us just a little background history of animal law.
Karp: Well, go back to the Code of Hammurabi.
Adam: What’s that?
Karp: (chuckles) Middle east. Old, old codes. We’re talking hundreds and hundreds of years ago. There were laws that pertained to even veterinary malpractice. So, I think if a surgeon, an early veterinarian committed some type of malpractice involving a mule or a donkey.
Adam: What years are we talking?
Karp: Gosh. I’d have to look. Probably thousands of years ago.
Adam: That’s ok. I’ll look it up.
Adam: I looked it up on Britannica.com. The code of Hammurabi is a set of Babylonian laws from the time of King Hammurabi during the first Babylonian dynasty. This was from 1792 BC to 1750 BC. Or, in other words, they’re super old laws that are nearly 4000 years old. I guess, if you are a law student, or historian, you probably know all about them. And, apparently, the Code of Hammurabi did include laws that addressed animals.
Karp: … there would be a certain number of sheckles that would be owed if there was some error made under the surgeon’s knife. And, so, way back when, thousands of years ago, there were early codes that talked about the value of animals.
Adam: Really?
Karp: Yeah, as a result of some type of medical error. But, I’d say that modern animal law really developed more in the last 40-50 years.
Adam: Ok.
Karp: So, some people look at it as a form of Cause Lawyering. No differently than civil rights lawyers, women’s rights lawyers, environmental rights lawyers, gay rights lawyers. So, there are legal movements that typically are motivated by the needs of an underserved or underrepresented group. And, there’s often a paradigm shift that develops too in the law, and also in society, when these movements sort of pick up steam. Animal Law, really, is a spinoff of the environmental law movement.

Adam: Welcome back. In the first part of this episode, Adam P. Karp gave us a brief history and definition of animal law. Now, let’s examine animal laws here in Washington state and how they affect the dogs in our world. Or, should I say, we’ll examine how the dogs in our world affect the law.

Adam: Are there any laws that are new and changing? Are there any laws that you would like to change?

Karp: Some of the laws that are changing … it’s funny. I’m always amazed at the number of times that legislators float bills for dogs in bars. I don’t know why it’s so important to have non-service dogs sitting there next to you as you have a beer, but, ok. That seems to be a popular bill in Washington. The other thing I’ve seen are issues to address tethering. So, anti-tethering types of laws. Because, of course …

Adam: Thank you for bringing this up.

Karp: Can be considered cruel in certain circumstances. It can also increase aggression, and protectiveness, and territorialism, of the animals. But, mostly it’s an abuse type of issue. And, so, I think there are two bills currently, in this session, floating down in Olympia that deal with tethering. And one of them, I believe, is going to pass.

Adam: And, what is it you mean by “tethering”?

Karp: Oh, basically, like leaving a dog chained up outside, all day long, without adequate shelter. Without adequate water or food.

Adam: What about when I’m going to my corner store and there’s that big dog leashed to the sign next to the front door there. Is that legal? Just to tie your dog up in front of the store as you go in and shop?

Karp: Oh. It depends what jurisdiction. So, in the City of Seattle, the dog would be considered at-large. Because, the dog needs to be, basically, tied to your hand. It can’t be tied to an inanimate object or a post. Many people do it, but you’ve just now lost control of the animal. And, you don’t know what’s going to happen. You don’t know if a kid’s going to be riding his bicycle right against the dog and get nailed. You don’t know if a patron is going to be coming in or out with food and maybe the dog will startle them and they’ll drop everything and break it. A lot of things can happen, if you don’t have that leash in your hand at all times.

Adam: Am I obligated to report that to animal control?

Karp: No, you have no duty, at all, to do so. No, no. We don’t have mandatory reporting laws, except, in some jurisdictions, there’s a mandatory report, if you find a stray.

Karp: One law that I’ve worked on for a number of years is actually an extension of a law regarding livestock. This is a civil cause of action involving 1st degree or 2nd degree theft of livestock or felony animal cruelty or malicious injury to livestock, which are all crimes. Basically, what this law does, is it says if you own livestock in a specifically defined category — like a horse, a bovine, a goat, a sheep, that sort of thing — if your livestock is the victim of felony animal cruelty, or felony theft of livestock, or malicious injury to livestock, which is a relatively new animal abuse crime, then you can sue the person who did it for trouble damages and reasonable attorney’s fees.

Adam: That’s great! Except, dogs are not considered “livestock”. And, Washington state doesn’t provide punitive damages in such cases. Adding an attorney fee provision would be the “big stick”, as you call it, and would make guilty parties reimburse victims’ attorney fees.

Adam: Welcome back to part three of this episode, which is all about dogs and animal law. In part one, Adam P. Karp gave us a brief history and explanation of animal law. In the second part of the show, we looked at Washington state laws and how animal law is evolving around the country from Alaska to New Jersey. Now, in the final part of this episode, I want to explore law related topics that could affect all of us. Including both those of us who don’t have a dog and those who do. And, what about those of you out there who doesn’t like, or knows someone who doesn’t like dogs? What rights or protections do people, such as small business owners have?
Adam: I feel like those people who get a $20 vest so they can take their dog into the sushi restaurant with them. I feel like they’re doing a disservice. I don’t know. There’s something I don’t feel right about, yet. What about the person who is afraid of dogs or uncomfortable around dogs, and then realize that they’re on an 8-hour flight next one. Am I reaching too far? Why am I feeling these weird contradictory things?
Karp: Well, you know. Times have changed. There are articles that have been written. You might want to look at a professor named Erica Fudge. She’s written a ton. Basically, on human bond and sort of the cultural underpinnings of our relationship with animals. Particularly companion animals. Her research is thought provoking. As well as James Serpell whose book actually helped me down the path that I have taken. He wrote a book called In the Company of Animals. Serpell, and to a lesser extent Peter Singer, of course, who wrote Animal Liberation. Those are all important sources who will help talk about how our relationship to animals has changed over the last 100 years.
Karp: In the last 20 years, it’s definitely changing. So, with these changes we have more and more human-animal interactions and with the diversification and urbanization by packing more people in a tighter space … and animals. I haven’t looked at stats recently, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more dogs, cats, and non-human animals per household than children. Or, at least close to that. So, you now, inevitably we’re having more conflicts. What you’re sensing is for the person who doesn’t have a dog, or has been bitten by dogs, or doesn’t care for the noise that might be generated from disorderly barking dogs. Or, the smell of dogs who may not be properly cleaned. What rights do they have in places outside of their dwelling? And, so on an airplane, in the supermarket, at a park. Of course, they have rights. We have competing rights. I can assure you. Although there is an element of fraud. There is such a thing as Service Animal Fraud.
Adam: I think that’s the word I was looking for.
Karp: There are some states that have passed laws that make it a crime to engage in service animal fraud. Which is asserting, as simply draping the animal in garb that suggests he’s a service animal. Or, by telling somebody “this is a service animal back off”. When in fact, the person is either not disabled or the animal is not trained. That’s fraud. And so. Here’s how I look at it. I think that animal accommodation rules should not be limited to just those who serve. As long as an animal is well behaved, I don’t think it matters. I think they should let every animal in at a restaurant, as long as they’re not getting into the food preparation area.
Adam: The city bus.
Karp: They should be allowed everywhere, as long as they’re well behaved.
Adam: Who decides what a well-behaved animal is?
Karp: Well Animal Control would decide that. The department of justice. Or HUD, if they’re involved. Basically, federal or state anti-discrimination agencies who are called upon to determine whether the dog is acting in a way that creates unreasonable risk. Whether there is some undue or direct threat presented by the animal. That’s where it’s decided. The federal laws that deal with service or assistance animal access all provide the rights of a proprietor to boot a dog.
Adam: And now, what about the people who do have dogs? What are some rights, or laws, or some things that you would like the dog owners to be more aware and conscious of?
Karp: Most of the calls that I get are (in terms of dogs behaving badly) going to be dogs who are rude, mouthy, and jumpy. That turns into a casualty. They either lack leash control, or get loose, or trespasses on someone’s property. Or, knocks an elderly person down and they break their hip. Or, they rush a fence and scare a child into traffic who gets hit by a car. A number of other scenarios where dogs are not being controlled. Or, there isn’t enough mitigated steps to avoid these inevitable, often, conflicts. So, there’s that. There’s sound. Dogs make noise, normally. And, I get tons of calls from both sides. People say, “I’ve been cited for dog barking. And, if I get three more tickets, they’re going to remove the dog as a nuisance”. Or, I get a call from people who live next to nuisance barking and it drive them insane. Every time they step outside in the back yard, the neighbor’s dog barks and they feel like they’re under surveillance. And it’s disturbing. I see those cases from both perspectives.
Karp: So, then what should people do?
Karp: My answer to that would be, learn how to reduce certain stimuli that create dogs to vocalize in a way that is either too loud, too threatening, or for too long. There are number of aspects to the noise making capacity of dogs. And, so, people need to be mindful of sound. They need to be mindful of aggression. They need to be mindful of feces odor. So, they need to clean up after their animals, so it doesn’t result in smells that may overtake or waft onto neighboring properties and are disruptive. That odor may create a scent for animal control to come on the property, or get a warrant and investigate possible neglect. That’s one big part of what I do and the laws that govern dogs.
Adam: Did you hear that kind of sigh at the end? Can we all help Mr. Karp out a bit, so he can dedicate more time to the bigger issues, like his proposed extension to Washington state’s livestock law. I’d rather he spend more time defending the animals who have been abused at the hands of guilty parties.
Adam: Do all of us a favor. If you feel a dog is lost or stray, do what you can to keep him or her out of immediate danger and check to see if they were reported as “lost” to animal control. If you have a dog, don’t leave them tethered and unsupervised in the backyard or outside of a store. Be considerate of others when you’re out in public with a dog. And, don’t let your dog be a nuisance to neighbors. Cleanup after you pet and do what you can to reduce excessive noise. If you’re running out of options, consider hiring a professional and humane dog trainer, behaviorist, or dog walker. Look for quality doggy-daycares in your area instead of letting your backyard be the daycare.
Adam: Look, I know that I’m not your dad and I’m not going to tell you how to raise your dog. But, I know this … Adam P. Karp is a warrior who belongs in battle. I’d rather see him on the front lines of the animal welfare battlefield, than dealing with irresponsible dog owners and folks who can’t accept that the number of dogs in our world are only increasing.
Adam: I chose not to share some of the more serious and heinous cases that Mr. Karp is currently involved with. Check out my research links for this episode to learn more about Karp and some of the cases and projects he is involved with. And, again, if you’re interested in the complete/unedited version of my discussion with Adam Karp, then let us know in the comment section of this episode on dogsinourworld.com. If enough people are interested, I’ll think of a way to offer the complete interview.
Adam: Also, if you’re a law student, or interested in learning more about animal law, Mr. Karp suggests that we check out aldf.org. The Animal Legal Defense Fund website is a central source for anyone who wants to learn more about animal law. Again, that’s aldf.org. You can also check out Adam Karp’s book on Amazon, which is titled Understanding Animal Law.
Adam: Of course I always ask my guests this one question. Mr. Karp shared his personal opinion of dogs …
Adam: Do you like dogs?
Karp: I do.
Adam: Why do you like them?
Karp: Um. I like the energy. I like the focus that they have. It’s interesting to watch. It’s admirable, actually. Some of the drive that they have. It’s astounding to see and the way that’s it’s implemented in a way that gives them a sense of working enjoyment, but also helps society. It’s fascinating.
Adam: How do dogs help society?
Karp: Aside from what they do for people as family members, therapy. There’s a number of studies that show that petting a dog can lower blood pressure. Dogs have an amazing ability to intuit even cancer or cancer detection. Or, epilepsy, or seizures that are about to be early onset. They can maybe smell it. That’s the science behind it. The power of scent. The power of a dog’s nose is useful of course in detecting drugs or bombs. Even, and I just wrote an article on cadavers. So, there are even cadaver detection dogs. We don’t fully know how it works. But, we know it does. The law recognizes that for various applications, such as search and rescue. Or, finding dead bodies. Or, finding inculpatory evidence.
Karp: As we wrap up, Mr. Karp reminds me that our conversation only scratched the surface of my many questions for him.
Karp: Although certainly animal law touches upon all of that. Which I never got into that with you. To basically say that animal law is basically every area of law.
Adam: Don’t worry, you’re welcome to come back and do another episode.

If you enjoyed this episode:

In this episode of Dogs in Our World, host Adam Winston explores the intersection of philosophy and canine companionship with Dr. Steven Hales, professor of philosophy at Bloomsburg University and editor of What Philosophy Can Tell You About Your Dog. Together, they unpack how dogs can illuminate timeless philosophical questions—from ethics and epistemology to metaphysics and the philosophy of mind.
Can dogs truly be our friends, or is it a different kind of bond? Do they feel guilt, or have they simply evolved behaviors that mimic human emotion? Are dog breeds real categories, or just convenient labels? Through personal stories and deep inquiry, Dr. Hales helps us rethink what it means to live alongside dogs—and what they might teach us about ourselves.
Whether you’re new to philosophy or curious about the minds of animals, this episode offers a fresh, accessible lens on how dogs help us grapple with life’s biggest questions.

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

S1 E03: Dogs and Philosophy

Adam: Dogs help me grasp difficult subjects. They also give me the confidence that I need to conquer challenges. The only way I have been able to confidently approach the world of philosophy, and maybe understand some of it, is by looking to domestic dogs as examples.

Adam: Since this show is about meeting experts and getting answers from the source, I searched the Internet for someone who could teach us about dogs and philosophy. With the help of my old philosophy professor in Philadelphia, I found this guy …

Adam: Dr. Steven Hales is a professor of philosophy at Bloomsburg University in Pennsylvania. He edited a collection called What Philosophy Can Tell You About Your Dog, published by Open Court.

Adam: Dr. Hales believes philosophy has something to say about many areas people are interested in, even if they don’t realize it. Whether it’s dogs, cats, or drinking beer, philosophy can illuminate aspects of everyday life and bring ideas out of the ivory tower.

Adam: With Dr. Hales’ help, we’re bringing a bit of Philosophy 101 to the world of dogs. If you’ve never taken a philosophy class or want to revisit the subject with a fresh approach, let’s see how dogs can help teach us something new.

Adam: Our experiences with dogs as pets and companions offer an avenue to reflect on philosophical issues. For example, can dogs genuinely be our friends, or is it a different kind of relationship? Do we have special obligations to our own dogs that we don’t have to others? Do dogs truly feel affection, or have they evolved to imitate behaviors that help them live well with humans?

Adam: Dr. Hales made me think a lot about dogs and philosophy. It’s been difficult to share everything he taught me in just one episode. As usual, I like to start at the beginning.

Adam: When many people think about philosophy, they think of classic philosophers like Plato and Confucius. I asked Dr. Hales if any of those early thinkers ever mentioned dogs.

Steven: There was some ancient discussion about whether dogs could reason logically. Not so much about dog minds or ethics, but whether they could use logical reasoning. For example, if a dog is chasing a rabbit and the trail splits, does the dog reason that the rabbit isn’t down one path and therefore must be down the other?

Adam: Rene Descartes, a 17th-century French scientist, mathematician, and philosopher, is often referred to as the father of Western philosophy. He viewed animals as automata—automatic beings like machines. This view, known as the Cartesian view, has influenced how animals are treated industrially today.

Adam: Philosophers have long wondered what separates living things from non-living things. In Descartes’ time, mechanical devices could mimic living functions, raising questions about how to understand non-human animals. Do dogs have minds like us, or are they biological machines without mentality?

Adam: Descartes believed animals were like clocks. But modern philosophers, especially post-Darwin, see humans, dogs, and other animals as part of a continuum rather than fundamentally distinct kinds.

Adam: In ancient times, animals were often seen as workers or prey. Egyptians tied animals into worship, like Bastet the cat or Anubis the jackal-headed god. But modern philosophers think differently about relationships with non-human animals.

Adam: Dr. Hales also introduced us to several branches of philosophy that can be used to examine dogs:

Adam: We also explored whether dogs have a sense of self. Do they recognize their own identity or see themselves as part of a pack? Can they reflect on their own thoughts?

Adam: This ties into questions about guilt and shame. Do dogs feel guilty, or have they learned to show behaviors we interpret as guilt? Are we anthropomorphizing—attributing human traits to dogs?

Adam: Dr. Hales shared personal examples, like his dog Sophie sneaking onto the bed. Was she being naughty, or just playing a game? Can we blame dogs for their actions, or are they simply acting within their understanding?

Adam: These philosophical questions don’t have easy answers, but they help us think more deeply about our relationships with dogs.

Adam: Coming up, we’ll explore more practical ideas and personal examples to reflect on when looking at dogs.

Adam: Welcome back. In this part of the episode, we’re diving deeper into how dogs experience emotions and what that means for how we treat them.

Adam: Dr. Hales, do you think dogs feel love the same way humans do?

Steven: That’s a tough one. Dogs certainly show affection, but whether it’s the same as human love is debatable. They may not have the same conceptual framework, but they do form strong emotional bonds.

Adam: I’ve seen dogs grieve when their owners pass away. That seems like a deep emotional response.

Steven: Absolutely. There are documented cases of dogs mourning. But again, we have to be careful not to project human emotions onto them.

Adam: So how do we ethically respond to those emotions? If dogs feel grief or love, does that mean we owe them more than just food and shelter?

Steven: That’s where the ethics of care comes in. It’s a philosophical approach that emphasizes relationships and emotional responsiveness. If we accept that dogs have emotional lives, then our moral obligations expand.

Adam: That makes sense. It’s not just about keeping them alive—it’s about helping them thrive.

Steven: Exactly. And that includes respecting their preferences, giving them agency, and recognizing their individuality.

Adam: I love that. It’s a shift from ownership to partnership.

Steven: Well said.

Adam: We’ll continue this conversation in Part 3, where we explore how dogs help us reflect on our own humanity.

Adam: Welcome back to the final part of this episode. We’ve talked about how dogs help us understand philosophy and ethics. Now, let’s turn the lens around—how do dogs help us understand ourselves?

Adam: Dr. Hales, do you think dogs reflect human nature in some way?

Steven: Absolutely. Dogs are deeply social creatures, and their behavior often mirrors our own. They respond to kindness, fear, routine, and even social hierarchies.

Adam: I’ve noticed that when I’m anxious, my dog seems anxious too. It’s like they pick up on our emotional states.

Steven: That’s a great observation. Dogs are incredibly attuned to human emotions. They’ve evolved alongside us, and that co-evolution has shaped their ability to read and respond to our cues.

Adam: So in a way, they’re emotional mirrors.

Steven: Exactly. And that reflection can be powerful. It forces us to confront our own behaviors, moods, and even moral choices.

Adam: That’s profound. It’s like dogs help us become better people just by being present.

Steven: Yes, and that’s why the relationship is so special. It’s not just companionship—it’s a kind of moral and emotional feedback loop.

Adam: I’ve learned patience, empathy, and even forgiveness from my dog.

Steven: And those are deeply philosophical virtues. Dogs don’t just teach us about themselves—they teach us about ourselves.

Adam: That’s a beautiful way to end this episode. Thank you, Dr. Hales, for helping us explore the philosophical dimensions of our relationships with dogs.

Steven: My pleasure. It’s been a joy.

Adam: Until next time, keep reflecting, keep learning, and give your dog a little extra love today.

If you enjoyed this episode:

In Episode 02, Adam Winston sits down with historian Mark Derr to trace the journey of dogs in North America—from their arrival with Indigenous peoples as pack animals and spiritual companions, through colonial conquests and presidential preferences, to their service and suffering in global conflicts. We explore unique native breeds like the Salish Wool Dog, the foxhounds of Washington versus the herders of Jefferson, and the ethical complexities of war dogs in WWII, the Iraq War, and modern society.

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

MARK DERR: DOGS AND HISTORY
This will be another three-part episode. First, we’re going to learn about how dogs arrived to North America, their role in colonial history, and then forward in time to the 20th and 21st century. I posted lots of research links to the show notes at dogsinourworld.com.

Part 1
Mark: The main thing about history is that we learn it, so that we try to avoid re-peating it. By repeat it, I mean that we repeat the themes of history more than the actions of the people who formed them.

Mark was just describing the theme of today’s show. This guy blows my mind every time I have the privilege of learning from him. You may have seen Mark on PBS, A&E, and the Discovery Channel. You can also read his stuff in the New York Times, Atlantic Monthly, and Smithsonian Magazine among many others. To me, he’s like the Gandalf of dog experts. If mother nature was actually a wise and no-nonsense dude in Miami Beach—she would be Mark Derr.

Mark: I’m interested in the human connection to the natural and built world. Dogs I’m into, because they are a mediator between us. Dogs are interesting, because of their ubiquity in the world. They’re useful as companions and workers. If that makes sense to anyone…good. If not, you need a dog.

In the first episode, we talked about the history of wolves and their transformation into dogs. In today’s show, we’re going to primarily focus on the history of dogs in North America. Then, onto the New World and through present day.

In order to set the stage and give us a starting point, I asked Mark to explain how we first got dogs in North America.

Mark: It’s long been assumed they came across the bearing straight. After the ice melt. Whether that’s true, I don’t know. That may change with genetic evidence, but I think they would have come with the first people.

Adam: And what kind of dogs were these?

Mark: They were probably wolf-like dogs as most were at the time. They became more wolf-like as they proceeded down the continent, I assume. Because, people lose them and need to replenish them. So, they bred with wolves for some time after the dog came into existence. We might call them dog-wolves, or dog-like, whichever.

Native Americans were the first people to begin using dogs in North America. I have often said that dogs make me feel closer to both God and mother nature. That hard-to-define spiritual bond with a companion dog was also likely felt by some of the earliest peoples in America.

Derr: It depends from culture to culture. We know from burials that they had an important place in society [and with] important people. [Dogs were] assumed to serve as guides to the land of the dead. Sometimes, dogs were sacrificed or died at the same time [as their owners]. [In order to] help them navigate to the new kingdom.

The first dogs in North America also served as hunting dogs. Little dogs were used to bay, or control the movement of elk. Larger dogs helped native Americans hunt bear and wildcats. They were even used to hunt otters and other aquatic prey. There was the Salish Wool dog here in what is now the Pacific Northwest. These dogs were bred in isolation on an island by the Coast Salish Peoples. The dogs’ coats were made into fabric and clothing and they were bred on the island in order to preserve the Salish Wool Dog bloodline. Is it possible that the Salish Peoples were the first dog groomers? Here’s Mark, again—

Mark: It was their role in carrying packs that allowed them to go into the New World with people. I think that one can’t deny that. You can travel much further and faster with dogs than with your own two feet. When they came into being they were used pretty much as they are now. That is, they were used to drag along their own packs and people. Lash two poles and you can carry a lot of things.

If only things could stay this harmonious and lovely. Unfortunately, if you remember from our recent interview with Erik from Wolf Haven—soon the Europeans arrive.

Part 2
In Part 1, Mark Derr explained how dogs first arrived to the North American continent and were soon used by some early Native American cultures. He claimed it was the dogs’ ability to serve as a pack animal—by “pack animal” I mean they carried stuff—that allowed them to enter the New World with humans.

Now, I want to begin Part Two by talking about the dogs who ‘probably came with Columbus. Dogs were ubiquitous on these voyages. They had a number of types of dogs in Spain—herding and livestock. Their primary function for the Spaniards was to terrorize and brutalize and kill the Native Americans to great aplomb. Since there aren’t many natives left where the Spaniards were, it’s a very sad part of American history that dogs were used in that way. But what it did do was keep dogs from being militarized for a long period of time—basically, until WWII.

Adam: What do you mean by that?
Mark: The Spanish use of dogs to brutalize people was so offensive to many colonists in New England—who otherwise weren’t offended by much—that they would not use dogs for that purpose. In fact, the one time dogs were enlisted was during the Seminole Indian Wars of the 19th century, when Congress mandated that some Cuban bloodhounds be brought to Florida to hunt Indians. One of the chief opponents of this was John Quincy Adams’s son—whose dad became president.

The U.S. presidents before and after John Adams also greatly valued their collection of dogs. Here’s what Mark says about the different purposes Washington and Jefferson had for their dogs.

Mark: Well, Washington was a major lover of dogs and breeder of foxhounds, because fox hunting was his passion. He kept close tabs on his dogs. Sometimes he’d loan them out to people. He had some little dogs, but foxhounds were his main thing.

At one point he wrote to Ireland—he used his extensive contacts to not only request dogs, but also play politics. He requested wolfhounds, because he wanted them on his plantations. This was right at the end of the 18th century. He was told that there were no more wolfhounds in Ireland, since the wolves had been extirpated from the British Isles about 50–100 years earlier. So his correspondent offered him a well-bred mastiff as a guard dog instead of a wolfhound. Of course, that wasn’t very acceptable to Washington.

Thomas Jefferson, on the other hand, was into herding dogs. He brought some back from France with him.

I find it fascinating that George Washington was more into dogs who could hunt fox and kill wolves, while Thomas Jefferson was into herding dogs. Dare I say, a more peaceful purpose for a dog. I don’t know. I go back to thinking about how often dogs can be a reflection of their owner.

If you’re interested in learning more about these presidents and their relationship with dogs, I highly recommend you check out Mark Derr’s book A Dog’s History of America. I’m currently in the middle of it and can’t wait to finish. Then I’m moving on to his other books before I read anything else. I have links to some of his books and articles in the show notes at dogsinourworld.com.

Coming up, in the final part of the show, Mark is going to fly the time machine forward and remind us of some historical events in the 20th and 21st century that have affected the dogs in our world.

Part 3
It can be tough. But, sometimes we’ve got to get our hands a little dirty as we sift through time in order to be on the right side of history. Remember, as Mark Derr said at the beginning of this show, we need to learn about history in order to avoid repeating some of it. I went down some deep, dark Internet rabbit holes in order to relay this story to you. Again, I’m sparing you the details, but we need to talk about some stuff. Here’s Mark taking us up to the 20th century and beginning Part 3 with the gritty history of one of my favorite dog breeds…

Mark: “[General George S.] Patton had a bull terrier that went around with him. Pit bulls—the Staffordshire terrier as it’s known—were fighting dogs. But fighting dogs were not viewed the way they are now.”

“I’ll skip past some of those details I was talking about…”

Mark: “Let’s just say it’s a blood sport, and most people in this country do not seem bothered by blood sports. You used to be able to get the rules for constructing your fighting pit up until the 1930s when the last one was published. The United Kennel Club was founded in part to register fighting dogs, and to have them was not considered as disgusting as it is now.”

“It’s important to note that just because pit bulls were used for blood sport, that doesn’t mean pit bulls are predisposed to vicious behavior. We should always respect an animal’s capability, but there’s a reason why we can have these dogs in our homes.”

Mark: “Most dogs are pretty nice if you raise them properly. But if you want to abuse dogs and make them mean and vicious, then that’s what you do.”

“An even harder-to-stomach form of abuse was happening in Nazi concentration camps and witnessed by some US soldiers. Again, if you’re the kind of person who can handle a rabbit hole, some of my Internet research can be found in the show notes at dogsinourworld.com.”

Mark: “In WWII, the Germans used dogs in the concentration camps to keep prisoners in line and sometimes to maul them and kill them. It was well known. When the Allies liberated Dachau they promptly killed all the guards and dogs they found there. It was an act of vengeance, sure. It was definitely—probably—a war crime. It was to correct an even more egregious act which was the killing of six million Jews and other people.”

“Now, whether you think it was a war crime that US soldiers committed, or you’re about to wave the red, white, and blue—let’s not forget about a military prison that existed during my years in the service.”

Mark: “During the Iraq War, dogs were routinely turned on prisoners in Abu Ghraib. It was a big scandal, in fact. I believe they were army dogs that were turned on prisoners. And the Navy handlers—I may be getting this backwards, so don’t quote me—but anyways, the handlers for one branch turned their dogs on prisoners, and the others flatly refused, because the dogs weren’t trained to be used against humans that way.”

Me: “I’m going to have to look that up.”
Mark: “You can find the Abu Ghraib report. It hasn’t been suppressed yet. I might have it somewhere.”

“I did look it up. In 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported that Army Sergeant Santos A. Cardona was the 11th soldier convicted of crimes stemming from the abuse of Abu Ghraib inmates between 2003–2004. He was acquitted of the most heinous charges, which included unlawfully using his K-9 to bite an inmate and conspiring with another dog handler to frighten prisoners so badly that they soiled themselves. It’s rumored that it was a game among some of the K-9 handlers and intelligence officials within the prison.”

“In 2006, the New York Times reported that another K-9 handler, Army Sergeant Michael J. Smith, was also found guilty of crimes at the prison. CBS News mentioned Sergeant Smith in a 2006 story that quoted him saying to the jury, ‘soldiers are not supposed to be soft and cuddly.’ Smith was found guilty on 13 counts. In March 2010, the military’s highest court upheld Smith’s convictions.”

“Whew. Okay. Don’t worry—that’s the worst of it. But we did it. I feel it had to be done. Not only is it important to know history, but we also need to look to the future. As we come near the end of this episode, let’s think about the dogs in our world going forward.”

Adam: “Do you have a moral opinion on the use of dogs for military purposes?”
Mark: “I have moral opinions about the military use of dogs for military purposes. I think we’re long past the time where we should have wars of any sort. I don’t think dogs should be used as offensive weapons against people for any reason. That’s not why they exist. That’s why the Spaniards did it, and it was nasty business. The people up in North Dakota just had dogs turned on them in a very heinous fashion.”

Mark: “Those involved in the civil rights movement will remember dogs turned on them time and again. That’s not what dogs are for and should never be used for. The dogs used to protect the president perform a central function and are not used as offensive weapons against people. They shouldn’t be, anyway.”

“There’s definitely one big difference between the dogs from the New World and the ones now in our present-day world…”

Mark: “I came of age walking dogs off leash across college campus and through town and everything else. Now you couldn’t do that without someone complaining or busting you with a ticket.”

Adam: “What has changed?”
Mark: “Well, partly the mentality of people towards risk. There are a lot of people today who won’t let their kid play outside with or without a dog. It’s just a different world where people don’t go out and do things much anymore. Or, part of it is also numbers. There are so many dogs and people who don’t really try to control their dogs.”

“Looking to the future, Mark makes an ominous prediction about the large increase in the number of companion dogs in America.”

Mark: “It wasn’t too many years ago that you might have estimates that were 40–50 million dogs. Now there are 70+ million in the US alone. I fear there’s going to be a backlash against dogs, because dogs are a fad now. Fads have a tendency of disappearing.”

“Do you see where I’m going with all this? Mark has been trying to teach me that dogs are, and always have been, what we make them. We may not know exactly how they ended up in our world, but the great He or She obviously allowed dogs to be a bridge to something greater.”

“I still believe that our personal—and societal—relationship with dogs can often reflect our relationship with God or Mother Nature. I’m not doing Mr. Derr justice in this show. Whether you have a dog or not, I highly recommend you check out Mark’s work.”

Adam: “What are some great resources for any of us who want to learn more about dogs and history?”
Mark: “Well, my first book is about the dog–human relationship; that’s called Dogs’ Best Friend. My second book is A Dog’s History of America, which is about the role of dogs in American history. It does a pretty good job, I think, of covering the territory.”

“I interviewed Mark the week President Donald Trump was elected.”
Adam: “If Trump is going to get a dog, what kind of dog do you hope he ends up with?”
Mark: “I wouldn’t even make a suggestion. I would hope they didn’t get a dog. I would think that he wouldn’t want a dog, because the man is such a narcissist that he wouldn’t be able to share his attention with it.”
Me: “Are you going to let me air that?”
Mark: “Sure.”

That’s a wrap. It is so exciting to know that many people in the United States and other countries enjoy listening to this podcast. Once again, there are some very special people I couldn’t have done this without. Thank you to Dave Elkins for generously donating most of the music you hear in the show. Thank you to Mark Padgett for the production and technical assistance.

I can’t stop working on this project—it’s become a second job. I need to figure out a way to continue affording this show. Please, make a donation at dogsinourworld.com to help me cover the never-ending production expenses.

If you can’t afford a donation, could you tell two people about Dogs in Our World? Or leave a comment in places like iTunes or Google Play so other people can find us when using a search engine.

Next month, we’ll meet with author, professor, and philosopher Steven Hales and examine how dogs can help us better understand that big, elusive topic called Philosophy. Until then, I’ll see you at dogsinourworld.com.

If you enjoyed this episode:

In this debut episode, Adam Winston explores the story of North American wolves with Erik Wilber of Wolf Haven International. We cover:

Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.

Introduction

With the help of some generous folks, I’m proud to finally present the first installment of what will hopefully be a monthly series. And, just so you know, links to everything we’re going to talk about in today’s show—pictures, comment sections for all of you to provide feedback, and more details—can be found at dogsinourworld.com.

This episode is titled In the Beginning, and I’ve divided it into three parts. First, I’ll share what I recently learned about the history of wolves in North America and their current status here in the United States. The second part highlights popular theories on the evolutionary relationship between the wolf and dog—how we got the dog from the wolf. The third and final part explores what wolves can teach, or not teach, us about dogs. So let’s get started.

Even though my passion is for the domestic dog, as a young dog welfare professional I find it nearly impossible to avoid the subject of wolves. There’s a divisive, exhausting debate among dog enthusiasts that almost always traces back to wolves—what we think we know about them and how we compare dogs to wolf packs.

If you want to see the amount of content out there, simply Google “dog dominance theory” or “dog training debate.” You’ll get around two million results—no deep digging required. But this show is our chance to get answers from the source. Instead of another dog trainer telling me about wolves, I went to someone who lives with them every day.

Erik Wilber: My name is Erik Wilber, and I am an animal caretaker at Wolf Haven International. I’ve been here ten years now. I started as a volunteer in 2005, was hired in 2006, and haven’t looked back.

Erik spends nearly 24/7 with wolves, wolfdogs, and coyotes. He feeds them, prepares their diets, repairs enclosures, transports them for veterinary care, and manages social groups and conflicts.

Erik Wilber: It’s so much—feeding the wolves, preparing their food, repairing enclosures… When an animal needs the vet, I take them. I manage who goes where and handle every conflict that arises.

First, I asked Erik about the history of wolves in North America.

Erik Wilber: Wolves were everywhere in North America and coexisted with Native Americans. When Europeans arrived, they brought negativity—bounties on wolves, habitat destruction, and poisoning campaigns. From the 1600s until the 1970s, humans waged war on wolves, paying people a nine-to-five wage to kill them.

In 1973, the Endangered Species Act made killing wolves illegal, and restoration began. At that point, wolves only remained in Alaska, Canada, and northern Minnesota.

I was born in 1979 and didn’t realize that wolf repopulation happened in my lifetime. Today, you can find wolves—and even endangered red wolves—in many U.S. states.

Erik Wilber: We now have red wolves in North Carolina, Mexican wolves in the Southwest, packs in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Minnesota, Wisconsin, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, Canada, and Alaska.

At Wolf Haven International, you can see gray wolves, red wolves, wolfdogs, and coyotes up close—including rare Species Survival Plan (SSP) animals.

Erik Wilber: There are two North American species: red wolves (no subspecies) and gray wolves, which have five subspecies: Arctic, tundra (Great Plains), timber, Mexican, and Arctic wolves. Mexican wolves average 60–80 lb and have a tawny coat with a black cape.

Wolf Haven only breeds the federally managed Mexican and red wolves under the SSP. All other rescues are not bred to avoid adding more captive wolves.

At one point, only seven Mexican wolf founders remained. Wolf Haven doesn’t own them; the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service does. We just provide the habitat while the recovery program manages breeding and reintroduction.

Erik Wilber: We’re very careful about wolf exposure. Education is important, but we don’t want to overexpose these animals just for visitors.

Suddenly, a distant siren triggered a chorus of howls from the wolves and wolfdogs—an eerie reminder that we were guests in their world.

Erik Wilber: (Wolf howl audio)

That haunting howl was Caedus, a wolfdog at Wolf Haven. Sadly, his longtime companion Ladyhawk passed away shortly after our visit, so this episode is dedicated to her memory.

Most residents can’t return to the wild. But what about wild wolves slowly reclaiming their historic range? What can we do to help?

Erik Wilber: Become educated. If you live in a wolf state, monitor public comment periods for environmental impact statements. Make your voice heard.

Wolves aren’t just charismatic—they’re ecosystem engineers. Their presence triggers a trophic cascade that shapes entire landscapes.

Erik Wilber: Top predators like wolves control prey populations and influence vegetation growth—willows in Yellowstone exploded once wolves returned, benefiting beavers, songbirds, and aspen stands.

Erik Wilber: You can support Wolf Haven by symbolically adopting a wolf or becoming a member to receive our quarterly Wolf Tracks magazine. Follow us on Facebook (facebook.com/wolfhavenintl) and visit wolfhaven.org to book a reservation.

Erik Wilber: The big questions are when did wolves become dogs, where did it happen, and how? Fossils point anywhere from 36,000 to 10,000 years ago. Genetics gives clues on timing, archaeology on place, and anthropology on process—but they don’t always align.

Adam Winston: And could domestication be happening today?

Erik Wilber: Possibly—some studies suggest multiple domestication events that later merged.

Adam Winston: What about the “how”?

Erik Wilber: Two main theories: artificial selection—humans capturing wolf pups and breeding them—or natural selection—wolves scavenging near human camps, with the tamest surviving and breeding among themselves, eventually becoming dogs.

I lean toward natural selection. Early hunter-gatherers likely didn’t have the resources to raise wolves generation after generation. It makes more sense that wolves domesticated themselves on the fringes of human settlements.

Erik Wilber: Some scientists point to village or pariah dogs—feral dogs living beside humans without being pets. They may mirror that early scavenger niche and have been easier to domesticate than wild wolf pups.

Genetics is a “tomato soup” of mixed wolf and dog DNA—hard to tease apart. Ironically, humans share over 80% of our genes with dogs; chimpanzees share 96–98% with us.

Next, we’ll explore what wolves truly teach us about dogs in our world.

Many people cling to wolf-derived terms like “alpha,” “pack leader,” and “top dog” when training a house pet—often without realizing these ideas come from captive-pack studies, not wild behavior.

Erik Wilber: Early wolf researchers studied captive packs and coined “alpha” to describe fighting for dominance. But wild packs function as family units—breeding pairs and their offspring.

Adam Winston: So “alpha” implies constant competition that doesn’t exist in the wild.

Erik Wilber: In the wild, wolves disperse once mature, forming new packs. Captive wolves can’t disperse, so they compete for position. Dr. Mech, the researcher who popularized “alpha,” now recommends “breeding pair” or “parents” instead.

Applying “alpha wolf” rules to pet dogs can be misleading. Dogs have evolved for thousands of generations and don’t think or behave like wolves today.

Erik Wilber: I’ve bonded with wolves, but it’s not like my relationship with a dog. Wolves are independent, aloof—they come to me for food, then return to their routines.

Researchers at Wolf Park in Indiana socialize wolf pups intensively—taking ten- to fourteen-day-old pups and raising them around humans for three months to study more “natural” wolf behavior. Even they don’t call themselves “pack members” to the wolves.

Erik Wilber: They see people as separate. Even highly human-socialized wolves don’t treat humans like pack members.

Wolf behaviors sometimes appear “watered down” in dogs—play bows, social signals—but dogs have a world of their own.

Erik Wilber: For multi-dog households, you may see a loose pecking order, but it varies by breed, individual temperament, and context. Dogs are incredibly diverse.

Erik Wilber: Trying to force dogs into wolf roles can do them a disservice. Dogs deserve study on their own terms.

That wraps our first episode. We’ve covered the history and restoration of North American wolves, evolutionary theories on dog domestication, and why “alpha” belongs in the past. Thank you to Wolf Haven International for their support—and to our donors Susan in Washington and Andrew in Philadelphia for funding the howl recording.

Next month: a conversation with Mark Derr on the history of dogs in North America, or maybe a philosophical deep dive with Steven Hales. Either way, we’re only just beginning. Tell your friends about Dogs in Our World, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and I’ll talk to you soon.

If you enjoyed this episode: