Episode 5 of the Resist + Renew podcast, where we interview Peninah from the Racial Justice Network (RJN).

“We have race at the core of the work and then see how it intersects with other other struggles or identities.”

- Peninah

Show notes, links

Racial Justice Network website + Twitter. A few slices of their work:

The Collective Conversations project

Stop the Scan

13th Recommendation on climate justice

Black and Brown community space

Unlearning Racism Collective

International solidarities with Brazil and Kenya

COVID Response

Transcript

Ali: This is Resist + Renew.

Kat: A UK-based podcast about social movements.

Sami: What we're fighting for, why, and how it all happens.

Ali: The hosts of the show are:

Kat: Me, Kat,

Sami: Me, Sami,

Ali: and me, Ali,

Sami: I'm recording this now baby

Ali: Shit it's a podcast.

*Laughter*

Ali: So welcome everybody. Welcome back to the Resist+Renew podcast. Sami and I are interviewing Peninah Wangari-Jones today from the Racial Justice Network. And we're really excited to have you. Thanks for joining us.

Peninah: Thank you for having me.

Ali: So a little bit about Peninah. Peninah Wangari-Jones is an anti racist activist organiser and director of the Racial Justice Network, and is currently undertaking a PhD at the University of Manchester, focusing on how coloniality shapes black activism. Peninah was born and raised in Kenya, her experiences of discrimination and racism, after migrating to the UK became a catalyst for fighting for racial and social justice. She is interested in race equity, intersectionality, migration, coloniality and internationalising social movements, what a great list of things to be interested in, like, so excited to see where we go from here. So thank you. Um, to kick us off, we would love to know a bit about the contexts you are organising. And so like, what do you see as like, the issues that are of, like, the most urgent or the most pressing things that you're focusing on right now? And how do you choose those things?

Peninah: Yeah, I think perhaps it just kind of fits all within the interest. And so yeah, race equity, race. Raising awareness, raising awareness about racism and stuff like that. It's kind of where we sit. And definitely the organisation, but I know the organisation has been informed by like it says there a bit of my own journey. And so part of it right now, I think, as we know, these would not just got COVID, we had the murder of George Floyd, which is kind of more recently just pushed a lot of things out there. But we also know, like, in terms of the treatment of black and brown people, is this kinda goes on centuries. And so the choice to kind of the question was around how do we tackle racism, because there's a sentiment that we kind of go into the spaces, and everybody's talking about equality and diversity, and that nobody's kind of really like bold or courageous enough to kind of go down the race route. And we felt a little bit of that was intentional, but the consequences of that, we will feeling those consequences. So the desire to push, race and colour, make race, like bit more mainstream, was something that we wanted, but also kind of, to build solidarities across. So sometimes, there's a feeling that if somebody is working on this just doing race, as opposed to race and other oppressions and struggles. So it felt right, and he felt fair to kind of really start to begin to connect these struggles in terms of who really interested in tilting or dismantling, they're not just the white supremacy structures, but imperialism, capitalism, and all of that stuff. We needed to kind of do the interconnectedness of race and class and, you know, a migration, gender, sexual orientation and all of those things. And so at the moment, that's kind of where we are. That's what we do. And it's not been easy for sure. And but we also, I think there was an another angle, maybe just to add was around how people who do, I don't know, not just equal opportunities, and equality and diversity training. There was something about we're not really addressing the root cause of a lot of these things. And so the desire to pull in colonialism. And the desire to kind of talk about the enslavement of people was to say, this is the way that this starts - of the root causes. So we cannot just because we have the Race Act, we have the Equality Act to have all sorts of things, but the one we'll be addressing what where is it that it comes from this fear, anxiety, hatred, treatment of people just on the basis of a were the born this, you know, the colour of their skin and things like that, so, but there was also another angle, of course, the focus, which we have is, is we predominantly black and brown communities. So I'd say 80% of our work is with those communities, and and part of it was just being tired of being spoken for, or, you know, assumptions of solutions or been made or started off elsewhere, as opposed to coming from us in terms of what do we really want? What do we consider a way forward. And so the angle of like mobilising black and brown communities, was somewhat unique of a time when we started. And, and that's kind of what's made things different, including now, what we see is what we're working on at the moment, it's definitely come from focusing on black and brown communities and then building outwards, because there are people out there who care but who haven't known, including because I mean, I'll talk about it later on, the allies who have wanted to, but not sure what to do, because not just the PCness. So by opening this door of race analysis, really recently, teacher or listen, race literacy, we've we've allowed for people to step in and really began to practice anti racism from somewhere where it really attacks and tackles the systemic stuff.

Ali: Amazing. I'm curious about some, I feel like there's some juicy stuff in the equality and diversity training stuff. I think maybe we'll circle back to that in a little bit. But you mentioned George Floyd, and obviously, Breonna Taylor as well, like a lot of like, the murders in the US police, police violence and the uprisings that have been happening in there. And that spread worldwide, which has been fantastic. And like, amazing to watch. And I'm also curious about what do you see as like, different to the US here in the UK? What's like, how does racism or white supremacy show up in the UK? And like, what's, what's the similar similarities? And what are the differences you see here?

Peninah: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think I should know it like it should just roll off my tongue now. Because I see the difficulty with the UK the fact that racism is quite subtle, and and we're also quite good at pointing to the US where a) people are dying at the hands of the police and other white supremacist including armoured... So over here, it's different because there's the niceties that we see but in terms of can of if we look at white supremacy as a conduct prison, we cannot focus and think racism is the overt stuff, as opposed to the covert stuff, like policies like treatments that you have, or you experience when you're kind of getting around employment, housing, and, and all of those things. I think, a bigger part has been the fact that that the UK, not just the education system, has completely ignored and whitewashed or distorted the history of Empire, their history, colonial history, in terms of the hands that happened, that continue to impact until today. The hams that continue on in terms of treaties that were signed, and that mean that corporations are still like completely ruling over debt that they you know, the majority world have relating to that colonial legacy. So when we see migrations not just connected to conflicts that were started by me, nor like the institutions around the colonial legacy, the divide and conquer divide and rule, we also see, for example, climate damage, or climate, people having to been forcibly displaced because of climate. When we come here, there's a sentiment that or we should be grateful that we're here as opposed to actually be here has had a big role to play in the fact that we've coming back whether it's industrialization and the damage to the climate, and whatever else will we talk about climate debt. And so that in itself, so by the time you come here, you're almost, the system itself treats you so badly. So we work a lot with communities who are seeking asylum, are destitute, are refugees, and they're just going through the process is one of the most humiliating dehumanising thing ever. And that's because you're not coming in almost as entitled. And for me, because I talk about my own family history. My granddad was resisting the occupation in Kenya, I grew up in Kenya, as we said before, and there is a part of me that really feels I have every right to be here. Our ancestors contributed to this, you know, gold paved pavements is some politicians would like to see it. And so we come here and we are entitled, or we should be entitled to some of whatever it is, is here, but when you come and you have the policies, so in the US, you might, yes, the police have guns, and they'll do whatever they need to do, or what they feel they ought to do. Which is not right. But over here we have policies were just killing people in the same manner. You know, we've had deaths, for example, in Scotland, Manchester, people migrated and held in these horrible conditions. People can't work, people who can deteriorate not just the mental well being, but everything else around you. Because you think parents who come in a) emasculated, because you can't work and you can't provide for your family, and you're living on five pounds a week, but then that what do you do you punch down, so then you have cases of domestic abuse. And then because of the hostile environment,