In my last conversation with Prof. Justin Marceau, we talked about his personal journey – from an aspiring pilot in the Air Force Academy, to Harvard-educated lawyer defending inmates on death row. What we did not get a chance to discuss, however, was Justin’s importance to the historic trial that ended with not guilty verdicts, for both me and my co-defendant Paul Darwin Picklesimer, in southern Utah. And, as I tell Justin in this podcast, he played a key role.

This is not just because of his testimony at trial, which in my view changed the tenor of the case. It’s because Justin gave me wise counsel – that I did not take as seriously as I should have – about the risks of doing open rescue work, against some of the most powerful corporate interests in the nation. It’s because Justin has elevated the importance of criminal defense work, including a new activist defense project he is launching at the University of Denver College of Law. (As Justin says, we cannot protect animals, if we do not protect those who rescue them.) And, perhaps most important, it’s because Justin has come to me – despite coming from an elite and highly-credentialed background – with a philosophy on change:

Don’t do what everyone else is doing. Fill the gaps.

That simple message is crucial at this point in history, not just for animal rights, but for politics and society. We talk about that idea, and much more, in this conversation. Enjoy!

Beyond Cages: Animal Law and Criminal Punishment (Justin Marceau’s book)

Palliative Animal Law: The War on Animal Cruelty - Harvard Law Review

Music by Dayzee Deva (cover of "Everybody Have Fun Tonight”)