Finding Peaks

In this special episode of Finding Peaks, Coover Torke takes the host seat to sit down with Chris Burns for a thoughtful conversation celebrating 12 Years of Peaks Recovery Centers. Chris reflects on the early days of his own recovery and the experiences that shaped his belief in the power of acts of service and people helping people. He shares the story behind the introduction of Peaks, the first months of the organization, and why Colorado became home for a new approach to recovery. The conversation also explores the importance of trauma-focused care, the belief that it is the care that makes a difference, and the peaks and valleys that come with building a recovery community. Chris and Coover talk about the mindset that every day is the Super Bowl, the people who make Peaks what it is, and what the future may hold. After 12 years, there is plenty to look back on, and plenty more ahead. Join us for a special conversation about recovery, service, community, and 12 years of Peaks Recovery Centers.

anything was better than what I had going on. Um the amount of shame that I had felt at that time and the amount of hope um that was instilled just because of that single phone call was huge. You can go from feeling like you’ve been thrown away and discarded and you can get two weeks of recovery and somebody will ask you how you did it. I mean, dude, that’s like that is so wild, man. And it feels like your entry into recovery was just getting you back to that baseline, that foundation of be of service. And that’s that’s powerful. We’ve got to do this side really well and this side really well is sitting with people in some of the loneliest and darkest moments of their lives. But I’m honored to be able to do it. Such a special privilege, man.
Good morning everybody. Welcome back to another enthusiastic, energetic episode of Finding Peaks. I am not your host, Christopher Michael Burns. My name is Coover. Typically, I’m on the other side of the camera, but here in September, we’re celebrating 12 years of Peaks Recovery Centers. We thought there was no better way than to interview a very special guest, Christopher Michael Burns. Thank you, sir, for joining us on this podcast. Dude, it is it is kind of cool and a little bit overwhelming to be on this this other side of the camera, but uh man, I’m grateful to be here with you. Grateful to be here with you. Yeah, I think it’s kind of strange. I don’t know if a lot of our viewers would know this, but your first appearance on Finding Peaks was episode 12. We brought you in as a guest at that time. So, we’re about 150ish episodes removed from that. How’s it feel to relinquish that host seat that you’ve come so accustomed to and sit back in the guest seat and just kind of have it coming at you? How does that feel? That’s wild. Introduced in episode 12. Episode 12. Lots have changed. It’s a long time ago. You know, it’s very empowering sitting in that seat. And and something that I’ve really enjoyed over the last year, 18 months of cultivating the show with you producing in the background is is the opportunity to just kind of like be real with our guests and to not necessarily have anything that I need to say, impress upon or move forward, but genuinely just like want to connect with our guests. And so I’m grateful that that has been the energy over the last 18 months because when I was riding driving up here today, I was like, you know what, if I can just go and just be with Coover, um, we’re going to get an A+ for the day because really, you’ve been so special to me throughout this journey. Um, and you’ve kind of been a voice in the background, but a really, really cool voice of which I’ve gotten to connect with outside of like the Peaks employee Millu, just you and I here, you know, or you and I in the downtown studio. And and so you probably know more about Peaks, you know, than you should. And you probably know more about ownership than you should. You probably know more about the relationships than you should. But there’s nobody that I trust with that information. and there’s nobody I trust to walk this journey that is like our 12 years and and for me this 11th to 12th year has been the absolute most special um for a variety of reasons. So to get to hang out with you for a little bit and do a little Q&A man like I’m inspired and um yeah I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate it too. I know it for me it is a little bit strange. Obviously I hide behind the cameras. So, I don’t do a lot of talking in front of people, but it felt like a good moment where we can kind of focus on not what is Chris Burns cuz people see that as the host, as the the entrepreneur, the owner, but now we can get to a little bit of like who are you? So, that our guests and our our viewers all around can kind of get that closer, more authentic connection. And that’s the original idea why we brought in some coffee cuz one of the special things at Peaks has always been coffee talks. So, I figured why not get a little bit overcaffeinated and just get into it. Yeah. I would actually not been two minutes early today if I would have had to go get my own coffee. I really appreciate you doing that. I was like, “Oh, that’s perfect. Happy to do it.” Well, man, I feel like one of the best ways to get us kicked off is to really get an authentic and good story from you. And one of my favorite ones, which I believe we haven’t actually shared on Finding Peaks before, and I’ll kind of paint the scene, and if you can kick us off, it was back in 2007 2008. Your life is pretty chaotic at this time. You’re in the back of a restaurant washing dishes. You sit on a crate. You get a call from your uncle. A life-changing call where he has an opportunity, a scholarship opportunity for you if you’re willing to take it. Do you remember that story? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want to share that with us? Yeah. It’s wild, man. I had thought about that in a long time. A really long time. So, I got sober back in 2008. Actually just celebrated 18 years of sobriety back in July in July here. And um so the crate the Grasshopper Grill, dude. You got the name down in everything. Grasshopper Grill. Yeah. It’s the only dishwasher job I ever had. Not that it was a bad job. I was just really tough employee. Um, so there’s these situations I think that that humans go through in life and and sometimes the the seasons of those situations feel very disconnected and and it can feel very isolating. And it just so happened for me that I had experienced that at at a younger age. And I kind of felt that emptiness for a variety of reasons, I think, um, from a younger age. And so, um, by the time I was 22 years old in in 2008, um, I was pretty hopeless. I had tried to enroll in the army. We were at war at the time. And so, I took an ASVAB and just like, you know, just mutilated the test, barely passed the drug screen, did the thing, was on probation. Well, anyway, I was facing some time in prison and a lot of things were going wrong and I was on probation at the time and I couldn’t stop using drugs and not a lot of my family had a lot of resources, but my grandmother happened to work at a place called Cottonwood Day Tucson. My uncle obviously knew that. So on and so forth. I had a really good relationship with my uncle at the time and he had stayed in communication with me and so I literally had a probation meeting within 3 days. I’m going to tell you, Coover, like if I go to this probation meeting, I’m just another one of those. At the time, it would have been like an ADC number. Y um Arizona Department of Corrections, but my uncle reaches out. It’s like this intervention from God. He’s like, “Hey, man. I don’t know what you’re doing, but maybe you want to give this, you know, this treatment thing a roll.” And I was like, “Boom.” I in the moment I remember sitting on that trick crate smoking a cigarette and just being like, “Oh my gosh, like this is going to be perfect.” And why was it going to be perfect? I had never done it, never been a part of it before. Anything was better than what I had going 100%. Um the amount of shame that I had felt at that time and the amount of hope um that was instilled just because of that single phone call was huge. And I had heard about friends of mine going to treatment and experiencing some success. Um and I had been through as a kid family programs of which we didn’t experience a lot of success. So that day was really really pivotal for me um because it was a really serious inflection point to understand that actually recovery was possible through a very maybe a more simple approach, a more human approach and um yeah man I was I was really really inspired by that opportunity. Yeah. And what came obviously was incredibly significant. Absolutely. Especially sitting on this side of that experience. It feels like that could have been very much a keystone moment that was preparing you for what was ahead. Because in that moment, instead of somebody just kind of pushing you through the system, it was somebody who cared about you, being like, “Hey, we care about you. We want to give you this opportunity.” And you made the right choice to take up that opportunity. And at this point, we can kind of look back and say, “Well, the rest is history.” But in that moment to you, how did it feel to get off that phone call you’re about to choose to go back into this time for more intentional recovery? How did that feel? Was it scary? Like you’re you’re about to change your whole life. Um I remember it it feeling was certainly scary. Yeah. However, it was like a breath of fresh air cuz Kay had just been making such bad decisions for so long, man. I just hadn’t had good people around me. I had really known I’d had a lot of issues since a real young age. And um you know, I I’d kind of been told that in a way, you know, and and so when I thought that maybe there was a way to say something different about myself, like maybe like I was in recovery or like maybe I was sober for 30 days, I saw people do that and and I thought it looked really cool. And I I thought to myself when I would go to a meetings with my mom when I was a kid, I’d see people get chips and do stuff like that and they would have their kids and they would have lives and they would have things and stuff and I thought that would be pretty pretty cool. And gosh, it was just an overwhelming sense of a new opportunity and a new path, you know. Absolutely. If you can continue in those early days of recovery, do you remember who you felt you were trying to be at that time? cuz here on the show you’ve shared a couple times that you were a little bit more rigid. You always had this feeling that you needed to be right in this situation and obviously we can go into so many stories, but there were some specific humbling moments in your early days of recovery where you’re the guy getting coffee and that’s how you were showing up. Do you feel that in those early days were you were you trying to hide from something or or protect yourself from something and that led to that kind of rigid approach to it? Yeah, I mean it’s a good question. I think both and I think the you know there was this I was 20 to 22 when I was going to treatment and kind of doing that thing. And so when I finally found recovery at 22, there was this part of me like this kid inside of me that was so [  ] mad and so pissed off that like here I am at 22, I’m the first one to get sober. Like why the [  ] Why? I don’t even get to have fun. Yeah, cuz I just friends are allowed at college. call it, right? And like, you know, my family at the time, like they’re doing their thing, but I had a different type of experience with my addiction. I wasn’t functional, and it it pissed me off. And so, I was upset. And so, when I got into recovery, I I really believed in this one approach. Um, because that’s what I was met with when I found my recovery. You know, back to your question, was like I had this opportunity to be of service. Um, and it inspired something in me that felt really really good. And I hadn’t felt that in my entire life. And I had glimpses of maybe what it that could feel like. And and because I’d been around it and I’ve seen other people experience this excitement and this joy and this connectivity and this this reverence and community, but I had never really experienced it for myself. And so these opportunities popped up in early recovery to be of service. And um I had made some pretty bad investments and not taking those opportunities seriously in past goarounds. And so I was really inspired to prove that they didn’t work and prove that there was like, you know, all this recovery business and it’s all cool and stuff and you guys seem to have this tribe thing going on, but for people like me, it’s just not going to it’s just not going to pan out long term. Um, but you know, making coffee at Crazy Birds Group, Alcoholics Anonymous, back in the day was was something that was really impactful for me. And and to show up early and stay late with people that were on the same mission and on the same path and cultivating and inspiring things alongside each other was really really empowering, you know. Yeah. It felt good. Oh, yeah. So, I was like, well, I’ll just keep coming here, you know, and and that’s what they say. They’re like, you know, you just you keep you keep coming here until you you want to come here. And I found myself just kind of always being there. Um, and in lie of therapy of which I wasn’t doing a lot of, I found a home in Alcoholics Anonymous and I found a community in that and the rigidity helped protect what I wasn’t able to access and what I wasn’t able to tend to as a 22-year-old showing up as a 12-year-old emotionally. Okay. And so Alcoholics Anonymous was really great for me. Not that you can’t have both, but for me as a young kid, it was able to encapsulate or freeze in time a little bit some of the hurt and some of the pain that I couldn’t speak to. And it allowed me to fortify something that was positive. And as you know throughout my experience and my story, that stuff has to be revisited. Yeah. Absolutely. I like how much you focus on service in that too because I think that’s something that’s so important that you can see even when we we had Sebastian Younger on the show at one point he the author of Tribe where he he speaks so much about how there’s low rates of anxiety, low rates of substance use, low rates of depression in a lot of these tribal communities because they all feel that they serve a purpose. And it feels like your entry into recovery was just getting you back to that baseline, that foundation of be of service. And that’s that’s powerful because it feels like that’s what continues to push you today. I mean, when you walk around the the halls of Trail Head, you see you walk around, you’re serving every single human that you interact with. And I don’t know I mean, I don’t want to speak too far out of bounds, but I don’t I don’t know many other facilities that are led by that kind of leadership where it’s it’s beyond the, you know, um follow my example. It it’s it’s this is me showing up and my act of service is this and you guys can all be a part of this. Like that’s that’s powerful. Mhm. Definitely. It’s um
being with people gave me everything, you know. Yeah. Gave me absolutely everything that I have today. And so to be able to get to share that like what I was just toring a bank, man. And I said to him, I told him the Super Bowl. I said, “Every day is the Super Bowl, man.” He’s like, “I really love what you said there.” And I said, “Boy, I just I mean it.” And so like that had been missed in some points in my career. I’ve had a long career and um for a young person and uh when you go from and this is available to everybody. That’s what I love about Alcoholics and Hon. I love about Smart Recovery. It’s what I love about some of these communitydriven things is like you can go from subzero to plus one real fast. You can go from feeling like you’ve been thrown away and discarded and you can get two weeks of recovery and somebody will ask you how you did it. I mean, dude, that’s like that is so wild, man. And people when you share that with them, just like in a little interaction and I don’t like I don’t like some every day I’m at the office, I stand up and I do my thing and I’ll just be like boom, I’ll just put everything on pause and I’ll just go walk around and try and find some people to talk to. You’re like, “Well, the CEOs don’t do that.” Well, this [  ] CEO does, you know, because it’s like it’s everything. And so, I’m back to touring the bank earlier talking about these things that we need to do as a business. And I’m like, what’s been missed is like this real simple, dynamic, fundamental, foundational, super important thing of just being with people. And so I think I’ve really been able to realize that and and and find an extra layer of gratitude for that in this last year. Um because it’s been because of the people that have been next to me that like like we get to have a conversation today and not just a conversation about surviving but a conversation about thriving% you know. Absolutely. Dope. Yeah. And that’s something, you know, it’s brought up on the podcast often. It’s it’s been mentioned even in like the winter symposium that that when you tour or when you come to Peaks as a guest or you leave as an alumni, there is just something different. There’s something special through the halls there. And and I think a large part of that is that from the beginning, it has always been structured as a human focused endeavor. You don’t come in as a number. You don’t come in as a you come in as your person. Hey, you’re John Doe. Welcome, John Doe. Let’s get to know you and let’s move into something. And I think that that that holds such a foundation to who we are as peaks. I mean, to disrupt the industry through our quality of care, that’s the quality of care that we’re we’re we’re with humans. We’re human focused. That’s the whole point of it. And I think that that’s so powerful that I mean, obviously, I get to see it on the media side. People talk about that often that it’s it’s something that you can feel when you’re around. Even if it’s just walking the door and Pat says, “Good morning. You never met her before and now you’re talking to Pat for 15 minutes.” It’s it’s it’s different and it’s hard to it’s hard to quantify but it’s hard to ignore cuz it’s definitely something that is observable for sure. Well, that’s what Yeah. I was talking to the bank about earlier was actually this new thing that I brought up is like there’s 13,000 treatment providers and a lot of them aren’t family-owned and operated and and sometimes that’s cool and sometimes it’s not and that’s okay. Um, but we don’t have a million dollars a month to go throw into the ad space. We don’t have a million dollars a month to go spread and just throw out a big parachute and catch a bunch of people and get 15,000 callers and then just cherrypick the ones that will go into our program. And so, like, we literally have to be better. And so I was telling the bank, the way that we do that is through these very human, authentic, simple, yet wildly impactful things that we do. And so with 44 beds and being family-owned and operated and not having the types of resources that our competitors do, like we get to cultivate a new human experience. It is human services but um from the word go and that’s what differentiates us is this very simple touch the only requirement is you have to ensure that you have 70 badass mofos that are down to clown. Yeah. Because if there’s any link that’s not there it doesn’t feel safe. Absolutely. And that’s something we’ve done in the last year is we’ve really cultivated a team Absolutely. of people where all the links are synergized and synchronized. And if they’re not, we build them up and do whatever we need to do in order to get them synchronized and synergistic so that we can flow together because it really is about an ecosystem about knowing that like this person’s got my back and this person’s got my back and we move into this thing together. And if not, it’s okay. And there’s certainly places in healthcare that are great spots for people. Um, but with Peaks, we have to be that subtle difference. Oh, absolutely. each and every individual. And that doesn’t matter if they come in for three days and they’re like, I can’t I’m not I don’t I can’t get well here. You will always know when you come to Peaks Recovery that there’s a team of people in Colorado Springs that’s cheering for you. You will know that the rest of your life. Yes. That’s powerful for me. You know, absolutely. And something that I believe even KJ was saying on the last episode that we released that to be at Peaks, you have to have the heart for it. And everybody who’s there has the heart to show up and serve. as we’re talking about every single day because it can be it can be challenging obviously working in this industry it comes with some hurdles it comes with some potholes in front of you but it when it’s the right people doing the right things for the right reasons the rest will be laid out in front of us absolutely I kind of want to take just one more step closely looking at what was it that the seed for peaks recovery originally what was it something that hit you all at once like a light bulb like oh we need to create this or was it more of a slow burn? You saw things in the industry. You saw how it how it was going and you were like, “No, we can build something different outside of this.” Yeah, it’s a great question. I I got a lot of experience early on in the field, which I was really really grateful for. Um I don’t know if the guests were, but I was, you know, I was like playing a lot of different roles. But um in Arizona, I came on as a as a house manager. Okay. And I’ve told you before, you know, my first day of training, I was like I was so excited and I’m going through my thing and I’m going through the training and I’ve said it before on the show, but there’s a and this is a place like that you work at. It’s like the place in town, man. You know, it’s um it’s a spot. It’s good good spot and it’s where you send people like you really like. So, I was like, I’ve been applying to this place. He wasn’t calling me back. Applied around 14 months sober. I got the job. I was doing house manager my first day of training. We go to go train and Billy’s got his clipboard. We’re doing the thing. and he goes, “I just walked by this guy that’s like in in acute distress.” It was he was probably at intake because what Billy said is, “It’s someone else’s problem. It’s not ours.” And we moved on. And so like so I’m sure what he meant was he’s an intake and that it’s the intake team who’s going to help him. But I just thought in that moment like because like I 22 years, man, I have [  ] clue who I was. I didn’t know I maybe I was a tra I was going to be a personal trainer and it was all external. It was nothing internal. And then this thing happened where we talked about earlier and then I started to really care about this demographic of people. I couldn’t really care a lot about most other things. But this demographic was so deeply ingrained in my soul and the fabric of my being and I wanted nothing but the best for them and I was willing to fight for them and and so that’s why I got into the field cuz that’s what I want to do. And then I was like whatever I guess we can get paid too, right? So that was an extra credit thing but for some people they really got to get paid and then they do the thing. But so I knew in that moment that I could do it a little bit better. And then and for me by the time I had gotten the experience in Arizona, which was about four years, I was going back to school to be a therapist. Obviously, God had a sense of humor, be an owner. I got my degree in counseling with an emphasis on chemical dependency and and addiction of course because that was all the fad at the time. Um, but I had the opportunity to work as a BHT, as a case manager, as an aftercare therapist. I got to sub in in certain situations where before I had my degree um through some indirect supervision and by the time I had worked just about every position in treatment, I knew for sure that I could do this better. Not even me cuz I can only do so much. Um but we could do this better. And and there was there was a handful of people that I thought they were doing it really well. And so I I looked up to them and I spent a lot of time with them and and we um compared notes, but I didn’t know how and when I was going to be able to open up my own treatment center, but I knew I was going to be really successful in this in this industry. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That’s powerful. It’s almost like there was that path ahead of you and you were ready to walk it. That makes perfect sense. If I could just slow the [  ] down. Honestly, if I could just slow down and like just be more organized, that was like that was We all get ahead of ourselves a little bit here and there. Yeah. If we jump forward just a little bit to September of 2014, you just unlocked the doors. We’re opening up. We’re for these purposes going to say it was Peak Recovery Centers. We open the doors. We’re open for service. What is the difference between your original expectations that you had in your brain leading to it versus what those first few months actually looked like as operating as a service environment here in the Springs? Yeah, it’s a good question. So, I’ll never forget I had a I had an office right up the road. just a couple miles, maybe a mile, two miles from here. And um because I had only had experience back in Arizona, you have a lot of insulated support. There’s, you know, 50 other treatment providers within a stones throw away from you. Yeah. So you can refer and you can compare notes and you can do these things. There was no extended care in southern Colorado. That’s why we were cultivating the model. There was no cost effective extended care for young people. And so I’ll never forget we got the La Montana office. It was like 5,000 square ft. Okay. I don’t know. I probably had probably had two group rooms and 10 12 offices. Okay. And I went and um I went to Costco with Cassidy and I got a pallet and I got some like couple like printers, XP printers or something, maybe some Dell computers, like five or six of them. And I thought I got a lot of stuff like some paper and some pens and [  ] And I got back to the office and I put it on the floor and it like took up like this much and I was like, “Oh man, we got a long way to go.” Um, but even thinking back to the beginning, man, you know, I’ I’ve been rocking this Rich Roll quote for a while, but the heart is true, the universe will conspire to support you. Everybody in their mother believes like their model is the best and their bias to it. Um, but I I really believe what what we were doing and and what we were growing here was something that southern Colorado had never seen before. The whole outside of like Jaywalker Lodge in Carbondale, Colorado, I didn’t feel like anybody was really kind of doing this thing. They certainly weren’t doing the gender specific thing. Sure. You know, they weren’t doing gender specific groups, clinical programming, things of that nature. and they didn’t weren’t having a lot of community integration and great followthrough was to like show people that you care and walk with them into community being with people for sure, you know, long term. And so we were able to come in and um pretty quickly make a name for ourselves for just caring pretty deeply. And I knew at the time that we weren’t going to I knew we had a lot of holes. Yeah. You know, we had just opened up, but again, back to the point that I make today is like you’re not going to be able to serve everybody. There’s going to be something when somebody comes in that’s going to prick their toe in just the right way and it’s just not going to work. But can you intimately care for somebody in a way that most certainly they haven’t been cared for cuz they’re walking in your door and can you allow that to stick and allow that to be the outcome that always comes back around, right? You know, and so that’s been pretty inspiring. That’s been pretty cool. And and some of those early phases were nothing different. People were in, people were out. Um, but we just hammered home that care thing like you’re valuable, man. And people care about you. Absolutely. So, what was it about Colorado, but the spring specifically? Was were you aware that there was an underserved population out there? Cuz you had to uproot everything. Your family, you guys had, if I’m not mistaken, just purchased a house in Arizona and you said, “Actually, we’re going to pack up, head up to Colorado, and we’re going to start this thing.” Yeah. What was it about specifically the Colorado area? That’s a great question, man. So I I was in Tellide when I was 18. Okay. I went on a snowboarding trip. Okay, cool. And I barely remember it, but it was the parts that I do remember. I thought it was phenomenal. Okay. And I always I didn’t travel a lot as a kid and I just thought Colorado was pretty cool. And I love snowboarding. Got it. So when I got the opportunity to do some marketing, I just Googled the five best places in Colorado. And I just came out here. And so I just absolutely love the trees. I love the woods. I love seasons. I grew up in Tucson. We didn’t have seasons. It snowed like one time in 16 years. Wow. Awesome. Yeah. And they like shut it down, you know, like 2 in. We rolled big old snow grass snowballs at the park. For sure. You know, but Colorado, there’s always something about um kind of the metaphysical the mountains. Something’s always encapsulated me. And I had no idea it was going to speak to me so profoundly as it does today. Uh [ __ ] I don’t even know if I’d ever been to a on a hike before I got to Colorado. Um, but when we got here, I knew that this was going to be the spot, specifically southern Colorado and kind of the Pikes Peak region. And our first logo, it’s kind of like this triangle and does this thing, but it was kind of like just to kind of encapsulate Pikes Peak with a little bit of like my 12step spin on it without like, you know, still keeping to the singleness of purpose, but not really. Um so when we finally developed a relationship with someone out here um they started sending us you know young adults to Arizona to the program I was working in. So we certainly saw that there was a huge need and uh we were working with them for about 6 to 12 months. They were send I mean every meeting in Prescuit Arizona was full of like Colorado people. Wow. It was insane. Okay. And they were like you need to open a program in Colorado. So, um, we knew we were going to be able to come specifically and be not just a resource in southern Colorado, but be a tremendous resource for northern Colorado because at the time in the addiction space, it was about getting out of the city that you lived in. Yeah. And so, change of scenery. Exactly. So, the Denver population was like huge for us. Um, especially when we first started. For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. I also like a little bit ago you were talking about the modality that we were setting up and how it was structured so intentionally but I feel like there was a very clear shift in early peaks where we moved away from kind of that rigid 12step approach to more of a clinically informed trauma focused approach and you’ve shared that that came slightly from your own trauma focused experience I believe that you had at the Meadows but what what was so profound about that to you that you felt we need to to evolve the core principle of peaks to being more I mean I believe you’ve even claimed that like the world should be more trauma focused and and because that is what can move forward that needle in recovery for more than just substance use or mental health for most things. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a great question and I think real valuable in like what we’re talking about because
I think I think therapy is really much more simple than it than it uh and then not to cuz for me you know I I went to the meadows right so we we did we did this 12step thing we hung our hat on it for six years seven years 12step very driven the longer in treatment, the better the outcome. That’s actually not true. Um, at least that’s not what our outcomes say. Um, I think it’s about safety and I think it’s about being safe in relationship with people and then being able to walk with those people into uncharted territory or scary places that you were unwilling to go before. And so, uh, my life was falling apart. Uh, consequently in 2018, 2019, you know, making more money than ever, Peaks is more successful than ever. about my relationship with my wife, my kids, and it’s all over the place. So, I go to this place called the Meadows, and I’m like, “What am I even doing here?” And in that week, I learned things about myself um that I hadn’t known. And and and I I felt safe to do it because of a myriad of of factors that were set up relationally. Yeah. Um that allowed me to walk in a space that I didn’t think I could ever walk in. Coover. I would go and we buried hundred people by the time I was 5 years sober. You know, it’s like I’ve been to so many funerals and I just couldn’t be sad. Like they’re sad and I wanted so bad to be able to feel sadness, man. I feel it all the time, you know. Um and I couldn’t. And some people are like, “Why the [  ] do you want to feel sad?” I’m like, well, I just want to feel something, you know, because it it’s required to have a good marriage, you know, and these things that saved my ass for the first 5 years will really be coming in a detriment um to my life and lifestyle and really just my family, my business CEO, nobody, everything was fine on that side of things. Nobody was asking good questions. And so, I went to this place and this space to maybe learn something. And they opened up doors that I didn’t think could be opened up. and and through that experience, I wanted so badly to come back and be able to allow that for our guests. But the Meadows, in my opinion, is the best treatment program in the country. They have the best model, specifically their Wikcinberg situation they got going on. And they have it because they’ve been doing it for 30 something years. So it’s a tall mountain to climb to provide that type of care and to provide it safely and to provide it in an ecosystem where people get better and not worse% it’s a delicate dance and so um when I got back I still had quite a bit of work to do. Um, but through that experience, we began to cultivate a curriculum at Peaks informed by researchbased modalities that have been around for eons and some newer stuff that really spoke to the human and the heart of the human in the story of the human. Yeah. And our our goal is to our mission is to save lives. In order to do that, we have to build trust. So, some people built some trust with me and I was able to do some things and and and we started to build trust with people and I started to get this really really really really cool experience that I hadn’t gotten for the first time in my career. Sure. Which is just through aiming to build trust with people instead of getting people to do what I wanted them to do. I began to come into relationship with humans that called peaks home for the first time in a way that I had never experienced before. People’s shoulders settled. They kicked back. They wanted to stay longer. Yeah. They invited me in. They opened the door instead of me barging in. And that was kind of the old approach. And so it actually was a breath of fresh air. It didn’t require me to get you to do anything. It just required me to take better care of me. And so it’s basically what the journey’s been over the last six years is taking better care of me so I can show up with you to inform without saying anything that we’re all in this together. Yeah, but I can’t say that. You got to feel that. Absolutely. And I think you maybe Oh, someone asked me that. We talked about on the other podcast, but it’s like we’re all in this together. Yes. Joseph asked me that the other day. Okay. He said, “Well, what’s the difference?” I said, “We’re all in this together.” Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Curious just about the timeline. When you got back from that little stint at the Meadows, is that when you started looking into sematic experience therapy for yourself and start exploring that? because that’s always been something that was very powerful to me. You you gave this man, this is four years ago now, but you gave this this example that a lot of therapies will sit you at the campsite and talk to you. Seatic will start taking up those tent pitches and start packing it up and teach you how to pack that up so you can put it on your back and you’re no longer stuck in that situation. I think that’s something that’s really it just kind of came to my mind when you were talking about that that that that idea of being safe and secure with who you are, how you got where you are and what you’re moving towards. I think that that opens the possibilities for so many people to feel more comfortable and okay cuz they can look at you somebody who who they can see as the recovery cheerleader and they can be like, “Wait, but I can do that just by opening up and feeling safe and secure.” And it’s hard. It’s definitely hard. I mean, we we’ve experienced, you know, guests who if they’re in a yoga session, they don’t want to go into shabbasa cuz they don’t want to be like that. But couple weeks later, here they are opening themselves up. And I think that’s one of those those hard to quantify but easy to observe things that’s different about peaks. And it is really that that that care 100%. Mhm. I was talking about this earlier today and um because if you’re going to be in that heart and you’re going to be in the ecosystem with people cuz dude we go like right if you checked in yesterday I’m about to spend the the best 30 days of your life with you and you didn’t read that on the website and you’re not thinking that’s what you’re about to do. Yes. But but that’s what I’m going to get to do is I’m going to get to spend some of the best 30 days of your life with you. Absolutely. Absolutely. And especially like man over the past 12 years, you truthfully you you’ve seen miracles. You’ve seen humans enter on the worst day of their life and leave with breath, leave with a motivation that is unlike anything that some people get to touch. And and that’s as as amazing as that is, that comes with a different side of the coin where there’s been heartbreak, there’s been pain, there’s been hurt. And I’m kind of curious if we can just step away from the the CEO and the founder and just like Chris is the human. How do you deal with that emotionally where you still wake up every day energized to show up to be the leader that people want to follow and to to be that recovery cheerleader, to be that that that pinnacle person in so many people’s lives? How do you how do you get that? How do you foster that very strategically? Yeah. Um, you know, I do this thing in addition to like taking extraordinarily good care of myself and putting myself first every single day before I put anybody else first. I always say it on my video. I said, I’m going to put myself first so that I can move out into the world and put others first. Um, I was sitting with a friend of mine, a dear friend of mine. Um, and I was at her daughter’s funeral and is an open casket funeral. And I don’t like open casket funerals cuz they’re very sad. Y and there’s a dead person in the room, you know, and so like, but I’m there, right? I’m what you’re talking about. That’s why I’m there. Yeah. Cuz that person wants me there to be there for them. because my name’s Chris and that’s what I do. And and uh she came over to me and she said, “I don’t you got to say something to me, but her daughter is in a box.” And I remember saying to her cuz I don’t know what to say. Yeah. I remember saying, “I think I think what you got to do is you just got to feel what you got to feel, you know?” And and so that’s what I try to do. I try when um things are really sad, I try to experience sadness so that it doesn’t bottle up and when things are lonely, I I try and talk about it and um I ensure that I surround myself with just phenomenal people who are willing to do the same thing because I think that’s the issue and that was the issue with me before I went to the Meadows was we weren’t talking about this work that we’re doing and the things we’re overcoming and what we’re doing together is brilliant. It’s beautiful. It’s badass and the impact is yet to be seen. But also, let’s honor in that that if we’re going to do this side really well, we’ve got to do this side really well. And this side really well is sitting with people in some of the loneliest and darkest moments of their lives. But I’m honored to be able to do it. Such a special privilege, man. And to be able to be present for it and to be able to experience all the emotions that come along with it. Yeah. Um more than ever and maybe for the first time in the last year, I really see um the opportunity I have the position I have to walk with people in a very uh special way. Yeah. So, absolutely. And as somebody who I feel like I can say I know you pretty well, I’d like to just hold a second right here. you were just speaking about where there was a time in your life where you didn’t have the ability to hold that emotion to hold this space even for people around you on a deep level. And here we can talk about how that’s what drives you is the fact that you get to feel these emotions. You get to not experience them but experience them with the people that you’re around. And I think that’s powerful. Not a lot of people can do that. Not a lot of people can do that. It’s very emotionally draining. But it’s something that truthfully I feel that’s what separates the leaders from just another person up there, right? Like somebody who has that deep passion, understanding, and just genuine love, leading with your heart first. There’s not always a correct thing to say in a situation where you’re at a funeral. Mhm. But it’s not always about that. It’s just the fact that you’re there and that you can share words with them. Like that’s that’s powerful. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s a new season of uh of Chris. That’s been really nice. Yeah, it’s been really nice cuz it’s it’s difficult to carry all that stuff unnecessarily or um disproportionately. And so just to be like to be with that the present moment has been a really, you know, people are like, well, I thought everybody was present all the time. Not me. I just So it’s been a really And it’s required that in this last year. It’s required a lot of one days at a time. Yes. And I’m really really grateful for that because we we’ve proven like who and what we are and what we’re capable of. And um yeah, it’s been the most rewarding year of Peaks Recovery hands down because we faced the most trials, the most tribulations and we’ve overcome the most. Absolutely. Um so that’s been super wild. Yeah. Speaking about Odette, one one day at a time. I feel like you were the champion of that of that mindset of that modality. And it actually even makes me think a little bit ago we were talking about how at the bank you brought up the Super Bowl and that’s something that I wanted to ask you about. We we tell the staff that every day must be treated like the Super Bowl. You preach it as you’re walking through the halls. Every day is treated like the Super Bowl. But you as as well as everybody knows that there are days where your tank is empty and it’s hard to show up in that way to fight that Super Bowl day after day. And I just want to pull back a little bit too like just for the viewers to understand like you’re so much more than just the founder and the entrepreneur and the CEO. Like you’re a father, you’re a husband, you’re a brother, you’re a fighter, you’re an explorer, you’re all these other things. How do you feel like especially those days where you’ve depleted your tank in so many areas, how do you still show up like it’s the Super Bowl? Yeah, dude. I um So, Dr. Lonardi wrote The Depression Cure. Yes. Right. Shout out Dr. Lonardi. I got to meet him once or twice. I had lunch with him. You might have been there. Mhm. Were you there? Chick-fil-A. Yeah. Yeah. So, I’m sitting down. I had like a salad or something. some maybe I had Chick-fil-A salad and like he’s like analyzing the [  ] out of me, man. And like they’re just doing this thing and he’s like, “Oh, I’m in grad school.” And and um he was in grad school at the University of Kansas, of which he’s like tenered there now, 30 years. He said, “I met this guy. He was like a physician. He was super like had tons of energy. He was super manic, but he didn’t like have the part in the mania that like really hurt him.” And anyway, so like he Dr. Lonardi was asking the guy his mentor. He’s like, “What do you call this guy?” And he’s like, he’s like, “What do you what’s the diagnosis?” And he said, “Well, you’re [ __ ] lucky.” Yeah. And he looks at me and he’s like, “You got that, man.” He’s like, “You got the thing where you got the mania and you’re like, cuz I’m going a million miles an hour.” But back to your question, it’s like, Cooper, like
I was telling the boys last night, I’m like, “I’m so grateful that I do one thing like so well and your mom does everything else so much better than me.” Cuz like I just literally like I I feel like if there was a God and he was putting people on this earth or there’s like this boom thing that happened or whatever happened, boom, there’s Chris Burns and like this is what I was supposed to do. Exactly what I was supposed to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Every what I do on a daily basis as a chief executive officer and the founder of Peaks Recovery is what I was put here to do. It is not a heavy lift. Some days are very heavy though. Yeah. So, I have to be honest with my family. The boys know Peak’s story intimately. They know if I’ve had a bad day. Cass is such a good mom and she’s such a good wife. She knows like I can tell when I come home if she’s curated already what I’ve been through for the day like in our home to ensure that like I just get to show up and it’s like a special spot, you know, and it’s not too intense. And so my my this is like a familyowned and a family operated. I’m not like out on an island like they know everything. In fact, the reason we’re here is inspired a lot by my family. I’ve told the story millions of times. So they’re always like, “Daddy, house peaks. Daddy was it a rough day. My kids are vibrantly integrated. I mean, they do arts and crafts with the guests. They come in, they do these things. They know these humans. I refer to them all as my friends. And so they also understand, too, that sometimes daddy goes into work and he loses friends.” And they’re like, “Holy crap.” because they have friends and they can’t imagine losing a friend, you know, and we lose them more often than most, you know. So, um, so one of the things that really really helps me is being really open with my family and really being able to talk about and speak life into days that are just really really hard. You know, like someday I’ll be sitting at the table and Cass’s like, “Are you all right?” I’m like, “What do you mean? Is everything all right? Is everyone all right?” I mean, you know, like cuz you’re Dude, I mean, you can go from having one of the most intense conversations and then you’re making chicken thighs. Yeah. You know, in rice, it’s like and people are like, “How’s your day?” And you’re like, “Oh, it’s great.” Is good. Yeah. How’s your day? Yeah. You know, but that authenticity at home, man. I mean, ju just for me personally, like what a role model for your for your boys, you know, like what what an opportunity for them to to grow up. And you’re not always perfect. You’re not always smiley. You’re not they they get to see dad. Sometimes dad has a hard day. And you know what? That’s when I get to show up for him and help him out. And like that’s beautiful, man. And I think you’re right that that is something that’s so special being a family-owned facility. Like it it’s it’s so hard. It comes with a lot of challenges that not a lot of people think about or consider. And you just painted it perfectly. Going home and making chicken nuggets at the end of the day. Or I believe it was a few maybe four episodes ago you brought up the Oprah eating Cheerios story that has stuck with me ever since cuz it’s about the Cheerios, man. Yeah. And your boys get that. They understand that. That’s powerful. Yeah. It counts as uh I don’t give her enough credit for sure. uh I get all the glory, you know, it’s like I do and I have for all these years. Um, but like she’s the backbone of everything and and she’s done things like not to not to say like to completely put her career to the side to like follow my dreams, but in 12 years she’s worked like five different positions at Peaks where you need a [ __ ] case manager, you need marketing, you need billing, you need this, you need AR, you need this, you need like she has done like anything and everything I’ve ever needed in moments where there’s nobody else that would do Yeah. So, like in this 12th year, I think it would be a absolute disservice. So, I appreciate you bringing it up to not mention her and the support she’s given me, dude. Cuz like me by myself, I’ll go home. I’ll ask people with doctor degrees all day what they think. Y only to go home and get my answer from my wife. Yes. And know I’m going to do that the whole time. Yes. I pay these people hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know what I’m saying? And so like that’s my girl, man. And um so she creates an environment too that is really holistic and connected and we get to talk about things. And my boys, dude, they got no problem being like I’m like I’m not yelling. They’re like, “Yo, maybe you should stop yelling.” And I’m like, “Oh.” Like, “Yeah, cuz you’re yelling, Dad.” I’m like, “I’m not yelling.” They’re like, “No, you are, Dad.” I’m like, “Oh, yeah, then I am.” Yeah. So, yeah, man. We got a cool thing going. And they’ve been raised in it, man. Like Peaks is almost synonymous with their life. They’re very proud. Yes. They’re very proud and I’m very proud. I’m very proud of pigs. It’s amazing, man. I feel like first of all, I feel like I could continue to talking this for a couple hours just going back and forth on all this kind of stuff. I mean, we have wonderful conversations in, you know, offices, but to put it on camera, I think is special because a lot of times people get to see one side of you, right? And it’s the leader. It’s the one that we show up day in and day out to follow. But what you’re talking about right now, that authentic humility of like, no, this is I’m a person and I’m living life just like you. There’s something powerful to that, especially in what we do for who we serve that they can click onto this and see you, authentic you, not putting on any. They can connect to that and they can they can take that and use it as almost a catalyst to move them forward. And I think that that’s something powerful. But I feel like we do need to hit a couple of those just cliche questions. Let’s get it. Let’s say we’re sitting here in 12 years from now, 24 years of Peaks Recovery Centers. What do you think the vision of that looks like? And how did we get there? We we’ve gone through so many seasons and phases. And I’m going to put my head out there. I think that we’re in one of the strongest places Peaks has been in my five and a half years. Like this is this feels momentous like we’re moving towards something. What does that look like as we continue going towards it? It’s a great question, but I’ve been dubbed lately saying as like we’re just getting started. I really I really feel like that, you know, in our 12th year. Um, but
we’re going to change the world, you know, and I don’t know where where you go and who you hang out with when you do that, but we’re already doing it. And that’s what we inspire for our guests on a daily basis. It’s like these moments and we’ll do it through this kind of thing, right? meaningful moments at a at a time like they matter and and we’ll continue to focus on those meaningful moments because what we’ve learned over the subtotal of the 12 years of meaningful moments is that they matter the most. And so in 12 years from now, whatever that looks like, man, we’re going to be extraordinarily successful in changing the ecosystem and the dynamic of our behavioral health industry, one human at a time, just through being a little bit more curious and a little bit more dynamic. And so 12 years, I dude, I can’t even tell you what I’m going to do next week. Um, but if we’re if we’re blessed and opportunistic enough to be around in 12 years, I believe wholeheartedly, man, will be the best thing going um in the entire world. Maybe some international stuff. It’d be really fun. I’ve really enjoyed our international guests. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, even last week we were talking couple Swedes have come on. Uh, somebody from Estonia in the Baltics, you’re saying I believe Estonia, the Baltic. We got a couple Swedes. We had some folks from London. Um, some Austrians. Um, did you expect that within your first 12 years, you would have gotten to an international voice to where people would know, oh yeah, there’s this place in the middle of America, in the middle of Colorado that is available and wants to help change lives. Did you see that being a possibility? No. Honestly, I was like, if I figured this would do it for a few years, few years and then I don’t know, we’d go up in a gym or something. I didn’t know that it was going to be like no way, shape, or form did we ever think. And that’s it’s like I’m like tickled or maybe it’s smitten. What do you say? Like it’s just like I’m so humbled. I I just mean that so much. Like it’s just I live two miles from the campus. I drive up every morning and and I and I have to do this and I just like I tap my chest and I look at Pikes and I’m driving into the thing and I’m just like, man, it’s so cool. This is so cool, man. I’m in just a season of loving what we’re doing, loving who we’re doing it with and and even more inspiring to me is like the people that we’re doing it with are loving who they’re doing it with. Yes. And they’re inspired. Yes. And everybody’s kind of rocking to the beat of the drum, man. And we’re moving and grooving. Absolutely. So, yeah, man. That’s we’re just getting started. I’m also going to just kind of piggyback on that, man. The the drive-in to work when you get off the highway and you start driving down Old Ranch, there’s something special. And my time obviously started kind of we we were at um Kelly Johnson right down the street down here. So very office building. We had a couple of h it was very different than it is now. And now I drive every morning heading straight. I see Pikes right behind us and it sets the mood for the day. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s different. and you drive on to our our campus where everything is available right here. And man, once you’re there, you’re there, you know, and it’s time to to clock in and be available, bro. They say 10%. Decrease depressive symptoms. You can drive by a green space every day. Okay. That’s like New York City people. Yeah. Like, oh, I saw Central Park. Yeah. I was like, I saw the sun for a moment. You know, I put these two chairs. I don’t I’m sure you see them. They’re at the ranch, dude. People sit in them. They’re right in front of my office. They just sit out there. Two chairs. They used to be over here. I put them over here facing right towards generally one person will go sit. Yes. So it’s like once a week I go sit in the chair. I don’t care. Usually it’s a new person. Yeah. And I just walk right up and I talk about Pikes Peak. And they’re generally in like from Tennessee. Yep. Like oh I you know about Pikes Peak. I’m like well this is America’s Mountain and this is where Treeine is and up there you can see the thing. I start co railwaying them you know like I’m telling the history and bringing them up with the oldest race and the thing and the I’m like, but and then by the end of the conversation, like I feel my heart rate lower, five beats a minute. Yep. And here we are at Peaks Recovery in the middle of Colorado Springs in this ecosystem that has an ability that we have the ability to not only turn down the whole volume but because of set and setting because you get to see that. Yeah. I think you get to turn the volume down even lower. Absolutely. Whereas like if you’re off the I25 corridor in an old red in an old hotel or something then you can get that then we maybe wouldn’t have that experience. So it’s not missed on us the opportunity we have on our 13acre campus to do sessions outside to sit under the tree to play a little bit of frisbee golf. It’s very very unique what we have going on over there. 100%. The campus alone trail head it we could talk about that for hours. It’s something that like I even intentionally while I was preparing for this left out because I feel like it’s it’s something that you just need to experience down to meeting chef down to the little walking past everything. It’s as I’ve coined in this episode, it’s different. Mhm. But I feel like I very much appreciate how authentic you’ve been during this entire thing and how I I’m very hopeful that it comes across to the to the audience that like this is this is you. This isn’t a show. You don’t put something on. You don’t you don’t put on a mask when you’re coming into work. Like this is Chris Burns. And I think if I were to end the show with one final question, if you could take me and say that I am you in 2007, you’re sitting across right now. What would you say to that version of yourself sitting here 12 years? Well, more than that now, but removed from that here we’re sitting. What would you say to him? Is it advice? Is it, hey, it’s going to be okay. Is it, hey, there’s going to be a lot of hard things, but you’re going to get through it. What would you say? It’s very it’s a great question and and it’s very very simple. I once was asked a similar question in a group setting. Um I uh it’s 2021 and there was this guy named Mark in my group because I wanted to be a therapist, right? I’m sure they would let me do these things sometimes. And um he’d been to like 10 different treatment providers and one of them I was very familiar with in Prescuit, Arizona. And he had been there for a year and they’re very very rigid and we had just come to life and kind of our new holistic mental health trauma-informed very very synergistic and relational program. Um,
so I was like, “Well, what have you learned like through all these experiences? Cuz like you’ve been through so much and I’m sure you’ve been told a bunch of different narratives about yourself, some true, some untrue.” And uh, what have you learned here? You know, and he said, he said, “It’s easy. I’m perfect the way that I am.” And so if I could go back to the individual, I would find a way to a 22-y old person to let them know like there’s nothing wrong with something happened to you and you’re perfect the way you are. Yes. Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Chris, thank you for coming on to this wholeheartedly and allowing yourself to be presented. Obviously, you know, when we’re at the office or we’re out to coffee, any number of of us at peaks, like we we get to see this side of you when we have these deep connecting talks, but I don’t think that this is a side that we really put on camera that often. So, thank you very much for your vulnerability and for your authenticity at the end of the day. It’s something that, you know, I facilitate the orientations, the new staff orientations at Peaks now, and a lot of times when we bring up your name, I always say, “Yeah, this one my personal superheroes.” He is a leader worth following. And I’m not just trying to gas you up. Like there’s I have been in many different industries. I have been doing a lot of odd jobs in my life and I have never seen somebody that I’m like, “Yeah, no. I’m going to follow him. He’s jumping off that bridge. Probably calculated the depth. I’ll jump with him.” And I think that that’s something really special. I’m very grateful that you bring that not only to me, not only to Peaks, but to every single human that you interact with during the day, during your weeks. Like you give so much of yourself to so many people. Thank you for all of that. Yeah, man. Thanks for uh allowing me to be a part of this bad boy. You know, I’m humbled and honored to walk with amazing humans, man, and looking forward to a lot more um one days at a time in this 13th year. 100%. Love you, bud. Love you, bro. I’m going to try my best to channel my inner you for this, but thank you guys so much for tuning in to this episode of Finding Peaks 169. And we got a lot more coming for you. So, make sure that you tune in, continue to see what we got going on for you. Peace. Peace. Yeah, dude.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down with KJ Jones, a member of our Nursing team and a Peaks Recovery Centers alumni, to talk about his own experience at Peaks and the role Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) can play in the recovery process. KJ explains what TMS is, how the treatment works, and why it can serve as a “jumpstart” for people who may be struggling to move forward. Together, Chris and KJ discuss how we can continue changing the way we help people, the importance of having people who genuinely care in your corner, and the willingness to make meaningful changes in your life. They also talk about what it means to move beyond simply surviving and begin feeling comfortable in your own life, along with the role physical activity can play in recovery and overall well-being. From KJ’s journey as a Peaks alumni to his work helping others today, this conversation is a look at hope, change, and finding the willingness to take that next step.

I remember asking one of the nurses like, “Will I ever feel better?” And she’s like, “You will. It’s just going to take time.” There’s no other place like this. And honestly, it’s it’s got a little bit of everything, but can help pretty much anyone, you know? I think that’s the key with TMS. It’s helping you rewire. Mhm. It’s using those neurotransmitters and kicking start the old ones, you know, and dormant ones. Mhm. And I think just having that option alone is life-changing.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peace, yours truly. Chief Executive Officer, founder Christopher Michael Burns. So grateful to be here today. It is summer August in Colorado. I have a friend, colleague, professional, somebody I admire, look up to, one of the most courageous people I know, my dear friend KJ. How you doing, sir? Doing well, man. Doing well. So grateful to meet you on this side of things. KJ’s also alumni. I think I mentioned it. Um, 2024. Yep. Take me back to 2024. I always like to I one of my quotes, I should do it more often because I haven’t done it lately. uh turning professional conversations personal since 2008. You heard it here first. Yeah. Well, 2024 I came in a beginning of April. Um I came from a place where living up in the mountains, part of the party scene, bartending, um burnout. It was just anything that could have gone wrong was going wrong. And I just would had reached kind of this give up point. and I came to Peaks and immediately knew something was different about Peaks. Um, I was greeted and I was made to feel really welcome. Heck, I was picked up and, you know, from Veil all the way here to Colorado Springs and just had a really good experience with the BHT at the time and then the nurses were fantastic and they just really took care of me at the beginning there. Um but just had a light little bit of a detox lasted about 24 hours. Um and from there it was just the groups, you know, the the therapists running it were just phenomenal and really locked in on what they’re doing and my brain just kind of started to soak it up and um yeah, so it was like April was kind of a breeze. um went to PHP early um and that just didn’t work out. That was just not where I needed to be. And so um people got together and they advocated for me to come back to residential which was the saving grace honestly. And I came back and was able to finish all of the programming um for the four weeks and simultaneously I was doing TMS and like I just felt my brain changing and the cognitive distortions just became really easy to get overcome the longer I was in treatment. And you know, I also like ended up being a leader unintentionally, you know, with community voice that’s supposed to last a week, but I’m pretty sure I was there for several. Um, you know, and it was help, you know, it was like wonderful to help someone behind me, too. So, like the newer guys coming in, showing the ropes and like help them, but also making sure I’m covering my own needs. Mhm. And then, you know, just making really solid bonds with people, you know, like you and I definitely hit it off and like ended up meeting up multiple times. And, you know, um Dan Hugle and I hang out, you know, we used to hang out almost every week um doing kung fu and we’ve just maintained a really solid friendship um since my treatment. And that’s cool. It’s just been a journey. Yeah. you know, just when I feel like I’ve overcome something else, there’s another thing that comes on. Um, and I think now I’m able to keep it like in stride and like be like, “Huh, this is a problem, but I’ve solved those before, so we’ll fix this and it’ll it’ll be fine.” Yeah. You know, it’s like it’s going to work out how it’s going to work out. And I think that just reduces my stress immensely, just like, hey, like it’s not worth it. So it’s a beautiful thing, you know, and it’s a you’d been to prior to coming here a handful of programs. Yeah. Prior to coming with, you know, at a very young age without very many results as well. And so I’m I’m imagining when you came into Peaks too, like it wasn’t you weren’t in a position of trust. In fact, it was probably quite the opposite as a result of your history and the experiences that you had had. Yeah. I I wasn’t quite convinced at the beginning. Um I was like, what’s going to be different? I’ve gone to so many other places. Um it was really that initial like introduction, you know, the Trevor picking me up and then bringing me to the facility and making sure that I felt secure. admissions like it was the whole process was different and then you get there and you can tell that people genuinely care. Mhm. I mean they’re there cuz they want to be there and you’re not just, you know, your insurance. It’s not a money grab. It’s genuine care and it’s the only true rehabilitation I’ve seen. Like in all honesty, I’ve the places I’ve been, it’s you see the provider once. Um they put you on meds without consulting you, expect you to take them. Um you’re with higher acuity patients than you need to be. And it’s just you don’t gain anything from groups and things like that. But here it’s like it’s a it turned into a brotherhood for me. Like we we did everything together. We were super on top of it. We bed every night like on our own without BHTs and had like a good check-in with each other and it is the most supportive setting I’ve ever been in. And you know, I remember asking one of the nurses like, “Will I ever feel better?” And she’s like, “You will. It’s just going to take time.” And then when I finally started getting there, everyone noticed. like the nurse, chef, like people noticed that I was feeling better and I’m like feeling confident in myself and starting to really like myself as well. Mhm. So, yeah, it’s it’s interesting how you kind of enforce or reinforce for me like the benefit of the the ecosystem cuz I think a lot of people including myself in the past have been in a position where I’m like, well, it’s this or it’s that or it’s this. And I think what we’re starting to learn and we’re starting to keep a lot of outcome data on this is is is the ecosystem of peaks and and what we’re formulating and putting together from a service offerings perspective and then the humans were putting behind that uh to inform that. So you I mean we talk about TMS, we talk about individual therapy, we talk about psychiatry, we talk about group therapy, we talk about holistic health, we talk about outings, you talk about brotherhood, community, food, hospitality. I mean, Ivonne over in housekeeping, it’s the whole thing. And maybe that TMS thing, maybe it’s like the jump start. I was actually talking to somebody about it the other day. I was touring. We’d been here in 2019. She’s going to come back for her mental health. She was here for 2019 for substances and she’s very interested in this opportunity because um what I’ve heard is it’s like a jump start. And when you get the jump start, you can begin to integrate and be a part of some more complex things like in my own story, individual process, unpacking and unloading, looking for needles, whatever it might be. Um so that you can engage and really um sink into the culture, which can be difficult when you’re depressed, right? Yeah. I mean coming from a place where complete exhaustion just you know just mentally burnt out completely and just like I don’t know what to do to help myself anymore and I think coming in with this well what’s the worst that can happen you know having an open mind and just being able to soak it in like because I I wanted change but I didn’t know how to ask for that and ask for changing and I think coming to Peaks and just observing people that were before me and just seeing the whole process and what can be um was really inspiring. Mhm. And I think with TMS, I felt like it did really, you know, kickstart my treatment. Um I I noticed the cognitive distortions, you know, just were really easy to come out of. Um, I mean it took time, but you that’s the first thing I noticed. And I’m like, I’m not being so negative. I’m feeling pretty good. I’m excited to get up in the morning. And like I’m just like feeling my brain firing. And I think that’s the key with TMS. It’s helping you rewire. Mhm. It’s using those neurotransmitters and kicking start the old ones, you know, and dormant ones. Mhm. And I think just having that option alone is life-changing. Yeah. So, correct me if I’m wrong. You probably know, you probably know more about this than I do, but so you go in Mhm. the initial session is a brain mapping session. Yeah. Right. And they’re targeting or measuring the individual’s prefrontal cortex. Yeah. On the left side. On the left side, which is different in all individuals. Mhm. So you might have someone getting a reaction right here at line one, you know, but during the mapping they’re mapping up here and so it’s just kind of and then it kind of inverts and then you know which line to get them at. Okay. And it’s like mapping is really important cuz you know like it’s not everyone’s going to be at the same line. Mhm. You know, you might have someone with a larger head where their prefrontal cortex is completely in a different spot like really that and so you got to find that right sweet spot and it’s all about reaction movement. Yeah. Yeah. During the testing, you’re looking for hand movement um and you know, best out of best out of five typically to get a good result. And then that’s where you set the threshold it and then you just raise it from there. And then every time an individual comes in, it’s already mapped. It’s already mapped. So it goes right to the spot. Yep. You have your own cap. Um and typically it’s the same person uh giving it to you like doing the session. Cool. Um, and it’s been it’s really easy thing to train someone to do as well. That’s beautiful. Yeah. I love it too because I think even the the company that does the TMS machines comes out and does trainings. Yeah. You know, and you know, they’re really quick to respond if we have any issues or have any questions. You know, troubleshooting has been kind of fun, too. So, you know, something pops up, I can pop in there and be like, “Hey, no, it just needs to be reconnected here.” Mhm. It’s It’s a really cool experience being on the other side of it now versus like when I was getting it done on myself. It seemed at first it was surreal. Like I’m like I can’t believe I’m in this position. Heck, I couldn’t believe that I was working at Peaks. So, you know, it’s like this is too good. Like this is what I’ve always wanted. and then just watch other people like brighten up and change and go from like basically Eeyore to take it really fast. Mhm. Um it’s pretty cool. It’s really cool and I feel really blessed to have that opportunity. Um and it’s nice that it’s you know not just right cuz on label with insurance it’s an outpatient modality. it’s a service line or an outpatient uh service line, but it’s really nice too to be able to bolt it on for residential guests that want to pay a little bit extra cuz we believe in the efficacy uh for treatment resistant depression throughout the residential stay as well. We’re keeping a lot of outcome data to inform that long term for our payer sources. But to have that option within the residential ecosystem, I think is huge. Yeah. I would love for insuranceances to, you know, change their policies because the earlier you get it, it’s like it elevates your entire treatment. Yep. Y, you know, like it’s one thing if you’re in IOP after doing whole treatment and then you started an IOP and then it’s like you’re not getting the full package, I feel like, and it’s a little late to the ball game. So, yeah. And you may you to your point you may have made some different types of decisions with respect to outpatient if you’re felt more integrated and felt like the you know you were you were kind of eliminating the negative thought loop and the and the voice in the back of your head had quieted down a little bit you know the optimization um and the opportunity through that is who knows but it’s huge. Yeah it’s huge. I mean when you have options you know TMS is expanding you have you know smoking sensation you can adapt it for that um uh OCD you know there’s a lot more options coming up and I think that’s wonderful for expanding yeah what if right and this is the lens that we’re looking through it through what if it just reduced overall symptomology um and acute stressors by 5 to 10% and say it was OCD and say it was addiction and say it was depression. Yeah. And we just added it on or something. And so we’re really really excited and that’s a lot of the things I wanted to talk to you about as well was you know we’re getting ready to do a big capex project. We’re building out um what I’m calling kind of like the brain center, the TMS clinic, the spot on our campus. And it’s going to be a really unique and valuable offering because there’s not a lot of residential programs that have clinics on site and because of our special campus style atmosphere. Um we’re really really excited to, you know, have a few TMS rooms, but also bring on and add um into the equation um and into the offerings for guests this OCD and the addiction helmet. A lot of smoking sensation stuff. I’ve heard great things about that. And our point on those ones, even though some of them are off label is like just what if they could help support, you know, when I was going through even though I didn’t have any money um or insurance, I was getting scholarshiped everywhere. Um but if you would have told me if it would have reduced the opportunity for relapse by 5%. Now they’re claiming far more. Um but what an option. Yeah. You know, why not? Yeah. It’s kind of that why not, you know, let’s try everything. And I think having everything like on campus and having it in one place, it it puts people at ease. It’s like I don’t have to go out for this. I don’t have to go, you know, to another place to get another treatment. It’s all under one roof and it’s in a supportive environment. So yeah, one roof. It’s going to be Let’s see. Ready? One, two, four. It’s going to be six roofs. Yeah. when we’re done cuz right now it’s five. We could put another one over there. But um yeah, we’re really excited about it. Just I mean honestly out of anything just creating a few more offices and a few more bathrooms would be really really nice. Yeah, I mean and from a business standpoint, it’s also wonderful because it creates some drops as well. Yeah, I’m really really excited about this. I haven’t approved it with my other ownership group, but I I just keep talking about it. Actually, Joseph’s down. You’re manifesting it? Yeah, I’m manifesting it really bad. Is like I want a hyperbaric oxygen chamber there, too. We want to just reduce inflammatory issues. which are synonymous with addictive processes. Absolutely. And so what if you know that’s another 5 to 10% kicker. Now you’re at peaks and you’re you’re doing all the stuff you’re already talking about. You’re going to group. You’re going to grief. You’re doing identity and purpose. You’re doing the family stuff. You’re going on the hikes. You’re walking the trail. You’re getting the sunshine on the face. You’re meeting with chef. You’re doing the thing. You got Dr. Wade. You’re doing the the physical therapy. You’re doing the cupping, the dry needling, the nutrition. You’re getting the massage on Thursday. But you got TMS daily. Now you’re going hyperaric chamber Wednesdays and um you know individual th it’s like now we’re really talking about a vast ecosystem that can be you know 2 weeks to 90 days long and you can be integrated within it and stay supported. This is uber unique. Yeah. There’s no other place like this, you know. Sweet. It’s It’s got a little bit of everything, but can help pretty much anyone, you know, if as long as they have the open Yeah. you know, open parachute willingness to change. Yeah. And one of the things that I love about all of that is often times those are like, you know, really hard resources to come by and generally not in network. Yeah. I’d never even heard of TMS before. Yeah. Um, I was just excited that there was something else to try cuz, you know, it’s like when you run out of options and you just feel like you’re a burden, it’s it’s just really overwhelming. Yeah. And so, it was really like opening to new ideas, like different types of treatment and like just I think bringing it all on board at Peaks is just going to only help more people. Yeah. KJ, I swear to you that I don’t even think we were billing TMS when you were there. It was all free. Wow. Yeah. All of it. Yeah. Like I can guarantee it actually. Yeah. I believe that because we were just like we didn’t understand it. Mhm. We weren’t in network. So we just we we believed in it. We had a doctor at the time. Bless her soul. She’s not dead. I know I said that. Is that what people say when they’re dead? Bless her heart. I don’t know. Anyway, bless her. I know I said it. But anyway, so she got the way with the TMS machine and we just assumed like, hey, if you’re depressed or if you’re struggling, like let’s do it. We did it for people that were addicted, not he never got any money for it. And so when I came in back in a year, 18 months ago, Joseph and I, Joseph mainly, figured out a way to like get a network and actually get some payment for it. Yeah. But back then it was just like we’re just throwing it out. Yeah. Triricare Sweet Being willing to take it. Mhm. is awesome. Like that’s a game changer for our vets, you know, and that’s opened a whole another population. Yeah. That can be helped. So, yeah. And I love what you’re talking about today, too, and and I’ll keep coming back to it because our field is such a big money grab. It’s such an It has such a low bottom. It’s so low. It’s like the Mariana Trench, you know? So, um, I’ve seen like I’ve been in Colorado 12 years. I’ve been doing this almost 20, getting old. And a lot of like, okay, we see the benefit what it pays. We’re going to go light this on fire and, make a bunch of money. So, you have up and down the front range. [  ] I don’t know. I mean, thousands of TMS helmets we have here now, but nobody’s doing anything. Like I want to say nobody’s doing anything. People are doing great work, but I think it’s limited because of the scope in which we’re approaching it. And so I love I really I’m I’m very uh biased to Peaks and what we’re doing and how we’re conceptualizing the model because it’s not TMS, it’s not individual, it’s not light, it’s not this, it’s all of it in in in the whole ecosystem. And so we’re really really excited to begin to roll this out just a little bit differently and maybe just a little bit more curiously because I sure I’m a business. I love making a few bucks. I love watching my employees pull up in new cars and get new things and be rewarded and all of this stuff, but I really really love more than anything helping people. Yeah. you know, and when you can make an impact, and I think we’re on the edge here at Peaks after 12 years, be 12 years next week, um, of scratching the surface of making a a truly a an impact greater than we’ve ever seen. And we’re talking 2500 guests deep at this point, you know? Yeah. But I’m thinking about like I don’t know, KJ, where they invite people like us that do stuff like that, but it’ll be cool, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I mean at the end of the day that’s all we, you know, those of us who have the same mind, we that’s what we want. We want to help people. Um, you know, a lot of us have never been helped until, you know, we come to Peaks and then you see someone that’s genuinely caring about you and it might be for the first time. Mhm. And to be able to come back and, you know, pay it forward. Mhm. You know, I remember all the people that, you know, helped me through and were guiding me, including yourself. And I would have never imagined two years ago that I would be here. Um, I wouldn’t imagine being, you know, engaged. I wouldn’t imagine, you know, like being comfortable in life instead of just surviving. So, it’s a beautiful thing, man. When I was doing that tour today. Yeah. Anytime doing a tour, man, you’re back there just looking fresh, cleaned up. The medical department’s nice. You know, you’re in a good spot. You know, I sit down with guests all the time, just like I did when you were there. And you know, when I get to sit down and they’re like, “KJ, this.” I’m like, “KJ, yeah, I know KJ.” Yeah. Let’s go, man. It puts the biggest smile on my face. There is nothing. I was talking about it yesterday. I was up in Denver meeting with another guy was in Peaks a decade ago. I mean, there is nothing that warms my heart more than seeing people go through peaks recovery that are thriving. Yeah. It is a [  ] the most exceptional feeling I could ever describe. Yeah. And it’s, you know, the those people have put in the work. Mhm. Cuz it takes work. You know, you don’t leave fixed. There’s no fix, unfortunately. Yeah, it becomes a lifetime journey and you’re constantly having to be curious and grow. Y and when you stop growing, that’s where people relapse and have other issues. Mhm. And it’s just been wonderful to like gain all of this knowledge and then be able to go and help other people with it. Yeah. And just feel like I’m raising the status quo cuz it seems like we’re kind of in a dark world right now. So, yeah. And you learned a lot in that 6 months. I remember. Oh my gosh. It was like drinking from a fire hose. Yeah. I mean, and it’s a lot of information. Like it may not hit one way, but if someone presents it another way, that’s when it you’re just like light bulb moment. You’re like, “Oh, that’s why I do that.” Or, “Huh, I never thought about that before.” And it’s just getting the different modalities and like whether it’s an individ individual therapist telling you like hey this is what we’re seeing or in group when everyone’s asking questions and you know you really start to get your brain firing in the way to you know to just change. It’s like you’re inspired by the people around you not just the people you know giving you treatment. Yeah, it’s interesting too to be able to or it’s really cool to be able to like draw strength off of like-minded people and and and the power in those positions, you know, and how much impact you can truly make is is incredible. I bet you can go back in your experience and it was this person, that person. I mean, it’s a it’s really a long list. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that, too. Just very dark moments when people just reached our hand out. And it’s not um it’s very easy to do, you know, and so to have it interwoven within the culture of Peaks, I don’t think is that difficult. Yeah. You know, yeah. And then having the alumni culture that we have, you know, we all kind of connect with each other. You know, we may have been from a different year or different, you know, month even, but we all kind of seem to come together. And it’s th those of us with the like mind that are just like let’s just change. And it’s just as simple as that. But it can be really complicated for some. Mhm. Also too when you leave treatment like when we used to meet it’s like well okay sober and then recovery and then it’s like but how do I say no when how do I have boundaries? Yeah. How do I not get ran over by the job that I have at 92 days of sobriety? you know, how do we how do we navigate this [ __ ] Because like I’ve seen this field too, like right, wrong, or indifferent. Bring people in, young, sober people, and just chew them up and spit them out. Yeah. So, navigating and being in behavioral health, frankly, is really difficult without taking care of yourself. Yeah. Self-care is immensely important. Um, and giving yourself grace. You know, none of us are perfect and we make mistakes and you know, understanding that the people you’re interacting with, not not just on, you know, patient, but as other providers, other people you’re working with, they’re human, too. Mhm. And kind of keeping the human in it and realizing that, you know, there’s no ego need needed. Um it’s just a really it the you know you hear the trope of like sometimes the people in behavioral health are sicker than the patients and you know I’ve seen that in a lot of places. Mhm. Though that I can say one thing though is never it peaks. M you know I always believe that the people there like they earned my trust and I could see that they were there because they wanted to be they wanted to help people. They wanted to push you to be a better version of you. Mhm. And I think that’s the game changer right there cuz I’ve never seen another place do that. Mhm. You know, so
I hate asking this question, but I’m going to ask it. So then why do some people come and they because I I always play the devil’s advocate. I I am super biased by what we do. I think it’s the greatest [ __ ] thing ever. I mean, for sure, and I’d be willing to just rap out with anybody about it. But um to be fair, like why do some people, in your opinion, why do some people come and is is it not the right? Some people come and they’re like, “Well, this isn’t what I need. I don’t like this. It’s not good.” But it’s is it an initial rea is it an initial introduction? It is a is it what do you think it is? I think some people are closed off to the idea of change. I think people come in with you know preconceived notions of what therapy is, what group is, what treatment is, and their willingness to change isn’t there. Mhm. Um they don’t have curiosity. They’re shutting off. It’s a bunch of no instead of maybe, right? And I think, you know, it’s hard to get through to someone that’s already shutting everything down. Mhm. And sometimes you just have to wait for those people to reach the point where they’re like, I’m willing. And it’s unfortunate cuz you see people that might come back to treatment, but every time you’re peeling back a different layer and then eventually that person’s going to get it. It’s just sometimes it takes more time. It’s like, “Yep, you need to go back in the world and cook.” Yeah. You’re not quite ready yet. Yeah. But yeah, that’s really well articulated. And it’s interesting when I ask it, I’m like, I think I knew that, but I just needed to hear that. Yeah. And
and suffice it to say in that that they may go to another program that doesn’t inform change and they will thrive. Yeah. Right. It’s like how many times you have to do it till you hear it just right. Right. Yeah. Cuz some place right I [ __ ] I went to treatment to get my family off my back multiple times. You know, leave me alone, whatever. Fine. And I’m not trying to go into a place like Peaks. You’re like, “All right, now when we go into group, we work.” Yeah. We do this thing together. And you’re like, “This is your 9 to5 now. This is You’re going in. This is mental health boot camp.” Yeah. You just didn’t realize it. Yeah. And you’re like, “Shit, I didn’t want to do that kind of treatment.” And then you find yourself at like, I don’t know, one of these phenomenal places in town with whatever. and you’re there and you’re like, “This is the place for me because they don’t maybe they don’t make me work or that’s not even part of the curriculum.” Yeah. You know, I mean, at the end of the day, it’s like whatever is going to help someone. Um, but I think, you know, having that drive and being around people with the drive to just change is huge. I don’t feel like you’d be as successful in an environment that isn’t asking you to be curious. Yeah. I mean, I that’s just been my general experience is, you know, like the the different places in Denver, Fort Collins. Uh, are you from Denver? No. No. Um, I’m actually originally from Sweden. That’s right. You’re the second person that’s been through Peak is from Sweden. Yes. Now, you know the other one. And we’re both from the north, so it’s kind of a We definitely had some You speak Swedish, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s so cool. So, haven’t been back in a long time, but yeah, it’ll be really good to go go home soon. Hopefully, it will be cool. Yeah, especially under a different light, you know. It was pretty dark when I was there, so Yeah, we’ll just do we’ll do sauna and cold. Yep. Exactly. And no logger. Cold pledges. All of them. Yeah. We’re just hanging out with another gentleman who came through our program, but he wasn’t from he wasn’t from Sweden. Yeah. somewhere in the Baltic though, older gentleman. Gosh, I forget where he’s from. Anyway, he sent me a video the other day of him swimming down in the thing with the water and and it’s in the Baltic and then they have this like sauna up on the hill. I forget where he lives. He’s got an accent and everything. Yeah, he was like chief of HR for some big company. Uh second, he was with us twice. Yeah. But yeah, I know I know one the my fellow Swede was the HR exeact, but Oh, I know another one. Yeah. So, I know another one. Younger guy. Younger guy. Yeah, younger guy. So, that’s three then. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah. So, Peaks is uh we do Sweden and um Swed Sweden does Peaks. We do it really well. We are international. It’s interesting how many people I’ve met who aren’t from the United States in the 12 years we’ve done Peaks. Yeah. I mean, I’ve just wonderful relationships just since I’ve started. I mean, I’ve seen, you know, people from other places. Uh we had a you know, whether it’s Poland or, you know, anywhere else. It’s it’s good to see my fellow Europeans. Yeah. Um because and I can just relate then and help get them where they need to go. Yeah. I see more breakthroughs when you have like something in common. So, I agree. It really is like that relatability, you know. Um Well, thank you. Yeah. It’s been really nice having you on the show. It’s been really nice kind of like re-engaging with you. Yeah, man. You know, we haven’t had a coffee in a long time and Yeah. It’s uh jiu-jitsu, too, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I thought we r out about that. When I first started was when you came Yeah. You were just going with it and uh you’re you’re still over what was it? Prime. We’re prime. Yeah. Yeah. Prime Brazilian jiu-jitsu. We got kids class tonight. I’ll be uh coaching alongside the per the one and only Professor Marcelo Mota, fifth degree black belt. We’ve had him on the show, sir. Good to see you. Um, but he’s been on the show before. So, I’ve been loving going on Wednesdays and just hanging out, man. We’re just playing games and like, you know, making sure like kids going around beating the crap out of each other like, “Hey, make sure you’re doing it better. Check this out.” Yeah. Here’s proper form of this. My my son Garrick, like they’ve been doing a while, but there was this kid. He was on top and had him in full mount. And I’m like I’m like, “No, man. You got to you got to get your knees up in the armpit.” My kids looking at me like, “Mother of God, what are you doing?” I’m like, “I’m Coach Kristen right now, dude. You can’t be biased. Get your knees in his armpit.” Now really smother his face. Dad is not here anymore. This is coach. Yeah. He’s like, and I’m just Garrick’s just sitting there. I’m like, “You better not tap when he does that to you.” Yeah. It’s so much fun though, man. All just kids. Oh, yeah. A a good like, “Hey, man. great job. They see me come and they’re like, “Was it a great job again?” I’m like, “Dude, right here.” Kids are so much fun. And I uh I worked at a place in town when it was with kids that are coming from foster homes, you know, corrections and all sorts of really tough situations. And it was so nice to just see these people who have grown up too fast turn back into kids. Yeah. And that was that was as much fun as you can have. It’s just wonderful. You know, it’s a tough it’s tough working with kids though cuz you know, you see a lot of things that you want to fix and help, but you can’t. You just got to step back and let them learn. Yeah. It’s going to be of a unique and very dynamic offering when we get there for peaks. Yeah. You know, the adolescent expansion is tough. We’re sitting in the building where we’re doing it. it’s right here. But, you know, being really thoughtful and mindful of how we approach that is going to be cool. But I love what you said about kids being able to be kids. You know, I look back throughout my childhood and there’s these moments and you’re like, “Oh, yeah. Just got to be a kid. I know this guy, really good guy. His name’s Devin High Totower. He was the captain of the Air Force wrestling team a number of years back. He is the founder of a youth grappling uh association nonprofit called Architect. So once we get this adolescent thing going, I have just big plans for it with the self-defense side and the grappling side and helping not only not only helping kids to like to your point to like to to to feel better from a mental health perspective, but also teaching them something that for me I’ve been doing recovery couple decades, really half my life. There has been nothing more formidable than martial arts for me. Yeah. And I love ball sports. I agree. Like you know what I mean? Like just from a a community thing and a knowing. I think like I grew up in a sports world. So you know it was very much the athlete life. Up early for hockey practice, getting to hockey practice, going to school for a little bit just to come back to hockey practice and the games and Yep. I think, you know, integrating sports and anything physical, especially with kids. Is just monumental changing like Yeah. just to see like boxing or any physical movement. It keeps kids away from the iPads. Yep. Keeps, you know, the screen parenting to a minimum. And I mean, that’s that’s where the disconnect often is. And then you have kids that are looking at their neighborhood and their whole neighborhood’s the problem. Yeah. But they can’t escape that. Yeah. So they’re trying to escape in other ways, but I think martial arts would be an okay escape. Yeah. You know, cuz Yeah. Get addicted to that. Yeah. Get That’s harm reduction. Yeah. It the cost I don’t know what it is. I’m not a doctor. Yeah. The cost of walking around scared all the time, hypervigilant, uncertain, and in fear. That’s tough cuz I did that a long time. Yeah. You know, and there’s something about um walking through and that’s what I tell my boys. I’m like, and they love it. You know, I’ve been doing it for four and a half years, but do they love going to practice three days a week? No. And I said, “You’re going to thank me big time for this one day cuz you got to know how to you got to know how to protect yourself.” And since I’ve known how to protect myself, man, this funloving this really jovial funloving side of me has is emerged that I think is so authentic to who I am over the last few years that I don’t even know if I would have ever met. And I love it so much. I can just kind of be who I am and like I don’t have to be cool. I don’t have to be tough because I know who I am and and and there’s a foundation to that that’s really really cool and unique and and I know that my friends are the toughest people that I know. They are so tough. There’s some tough nuts here in Springs. Yeah. It’s like they’re like you’re friends with who? And I’m like whoa. Yeah. Yeah. He’s just a you know just a light mixed martial artist. No, no big deal. Yeah. What these people can do like manipulate your body. Yeah. like as a man like you know it’s like dude like what okay okay with your foot. Yeah. I think that like the discipline aspect too of any like any sort of sport. Mhm. But I think martial arts is typically known for it. Yeah. And it’s just one of those repetitive things. I think that also like translates to life and so you know you become more disciplined in the art and then at home you know things are getting done you’re staying disciplined at home that pile of dishes is not as big anymore. It’s you know it’s dwindled. Mhm. And I think it also brings a lot of like joy. Mhm. And like self-love cuz that’s self-care. Yeah. It’s 100% selfcare. Yeah. It really is. Yeah, I’m a big fan of it. Obviously, you are as well. Yeah. Uh, you know, schedule’s been a little off, but now I could get back into kung fu and, you know, potentially come roll with you sometime. Sweet. Yeah, that’s right. You do the kung fu stuff as well. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve been doing I had to take a hiatus from that. Just different work schedules and stuff, but I’m really looking forward to getting back to that. And that’s cool. Just, you know, doing something for me cuz selfcare. Mhm. But it is so like it is a lot like I learning mish martial arts is a lot like kind of getting sober or like get starting to work around a recovery process for your mental health. Yeah. I mean it’s also just rewriting neural pathways too. Mhm. Hey instead of going for a bottle I’m going for you know nunchucks. Just kidding. Yeah. But yeah be sweet essentially. Yeah. Like don’t get me wrong if I knew how to swing Dan knows how to swing nunchucks. Yeah. That’s that’s been fun to watch before too. Yeah. Yeah. I would probably knock. He’s like a kid in a candy shop in that dojo. I bet. Just all the things. Yeah, that’s cool. Well, it’s been awesome having you on, man. I sit here and talk to you forever, but I think you and I both go back to work eventually. Yeah. Um, but it’s just a real honor and and to to have you on to see you uh at one point survive and and thrive and survive and thrive and just be be on life’s journey with you personally and professionally, man. It’s um it’s a real honor for me. So, thank you. Oh, no. Thank you. Like I can, you know, it’s great to be consider you a friend, you know, if not a great friend. Yeah. Um and I just appreciate you creating an environment where I could find myself. Yeah, absolutely. Now we’re doing it together and I couldn’t be happier and help other people now. Let’s go. Well, it’s been awesome. Happy freaking heart day. Okay. Happy heart day. It’s Wednesday, right? Is it Wednesday? It’s Wednesday. It’s happy heart day. Yeah, it’s happy heart day. Heart day is a day in in during the week when most people call it hump day and they’re descending into the weekend. We are ascending because we’re in recovery. We’re part of ODAT Nation. One day at a time where people in recovery get stronger from Wednesday forward. This is where we pass all the people that aren’t doing one day at a time. I’ll tell you that much. And so grateful to have you on. Grateful for the people. Um check us out. We’ll be on Sunday. Love you very much. Until next time.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down with Peaks Recovery Centers Alumni Jared Fischer, whose recovery journey sparked a passion that transformed his life. What began as discovering the gym during treatment has grown into a lifelong commitment to health, wellness, and helping others as the owner and Health & Wellness Coach behind Healthtimize. Together, Chris and Jared explore Jared’s experience at Peaks, navigating grief in recovery, the importance of holding space for others, and why commitment will always outlast motivation. They also discuss finding flow, discovering purpose through service, and how wellness can become a powerful foundation for long-term recovery. This honest conversation is a reminder that sobriety isn’t the finish line—it’s the beginning of building a meaningful life.

Connect with Jared:
Website: Healthtimize.com
Email: [email protected]
Instagram: @jballconguero

I discovered that that, you know, obviously I needed to get sober. That was one thing, but it was the grief that really was was messing with my mind and um getting through that and dealing with that g grief was huge. So then it’s just reintroducing humans to that wholeness and per there was actually nothing wrong with you. Some something happened to nothing is wrong with the care that I was given here really is what changed my life. Um, every single person that [music] that I came into contact with genuinely cared.
[music]
[music]
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting, enthusiastic and barefoot episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, CEO and founder Christopher Burns. joined today by a friend, colleague, alumni, superhuman in the Northern Colorado community, my friend, recovery human Jared Fischer. Welcome to the show. Hello. How’s it going? So good, man. Pleasure to be here. So grateful to have you. Um I told Cove before the show. Jared um owns a company called Health Demise and he’s dedicated his life and his passion is is walking with people in recovery or out of recovery, but just to like optimize their life and their well-being and uh their quality of life and and so he’s very much done what we were able to do together five short years ago with the community that he calls home here in Colorado. So really really grateful to have you on the show. Grateful to have you barefoot. Wouldn’t have it any other way, man. So getting some grounding. Yeah. So today, um, we got to walk into the basement, if you will. I always tell people because they don’t know because we have this beautiful facility called the trail head, and it’s 20 beds, but in the pandemic when we were just trying to figure out how to dot our eyes and cross our tees, we turned the basement of the house into the detox and the RV garage into like the clinical medical triage. And so, um, there’s a picture that we’re going to show on this show as we air it where Jared checked in and we took a picture of him in detox and he was right next to the cereals and this morning I had the opportunity to take him on a tour. We got to kind of go put our feet in the earth behind the facility and walk in and um, I could kind of feel that energy with you and I just wanted to What was that like for you? Revisiting that was the lowest point probably of my life. I was scared. I didn’t know what to expect. And when you guys see the picture, it’s crazy to crazy to see. Um it was awesome to revisit it. I I told you as we as we were walking around that area, it’s crystal clear in my mind the memory of it and uh it was just bittersweet really. Um seeing seeing the where it all started where you guys helped me out. I spent 30, you know, I spent the first seven days in that basement area just getting sober and then uh, you know, another 30 days getting my head straight. But, uh, yeah, just bittersweet. It’s great to see it. Um, great to see. Also, I had I had had a coffee talk with you uh, while I was in recovery and you kind of took me around and you really explained your vision of the the the whole facility. you know, you were going to build this whole building um with with all the the treatment rooms and you showed me that that that’s already that’s come to fruition. Um that wasn’t there when I was there. So, [snorts] it was really awesome and it was really gave me a a lot of pride in you and your company and everything that you’ve done and you just keeping it going and helping people out and that’s what it’s all about, you know, helping these people. And that’s what my business is all about is I, you know, I wanted to help people. Um, and I was inspired by by you really when I when I was in the in the the recovery. You know, I saw you were in great shape and there was like a little bit of a gym facility there and some of us guys were getting on the treadmill and kind of lifting weights. And when I was in there, I said, I’m going to get a gym gym membership when I when I get out of here. And right when I got back to Boulder, got a gym membership. And we can talk about that here in a little bit. But um yeah, the rest is history. So that’s a it’s inspiring to me, you know, cuz I follow you on Instagram, you know, you see me, I watch your [  ] you know, like absolutely it it gives me chills, man. There is nothing more gratifying than walking with you maybe a step or two out in front of you to start. Mhm. And then walking alongside of you in community. And I know that I haven’t been up to Boulder. I haven’t seen what you got going on, but we’re constantly communicating back and forth on IG. I do my videos, you do your videos, and there’s something about waking up in the morning and seeing somebody that called this place home on day one. And to see I mean I am your biggest fan like and a lot of the guys and gals appreciate that. Yeah. And and and a lot of the guys and gals who have gone through and done something similar to what you’ve done probably count a couple ten of them over all these years. And it’s really inspiring, man. It reminds me when I’m going through and I talked about it on the show at Nauseium lately is when I’m going through um business life and it’s really really intense. I just focus in on the smile in the video. I focus in on the picture and I remind myself how we’re going to show up and we’re going to empty the tank and give it everything we got today. Absolutely. All right, man. Um it’s mindset, you know. Um it really is a lot of it. Um there’s there’s the physical side, but really that mindset. We were just talking about this off camera. Um just about showing up, showing up for yourself, showing up for others. Um but really it’s just it’s important. And like you said, you know, see that smile on your face, giving it everything you got, being laser focused in what you’re doing. Um you know, bad things happen. Things happen to all of us. We go through really hard times. And you know, whether that has to do with substance abuse or grief or anything that we’re dealing with in life, you know, part of your health is your mental, you know, um you can physically be healthy, you can physically be fit and you know, you got to there’s other things too, you know, your digestive system, everything. But um really, and that’s connected to your brain, too, is your digestive system. So, um getting those right, getting your head right, mindset right, it’s it’s huge. Yeah. And uh you know providing that environment here is so huge especially for people that really need the help you know. So uh yeah I’m just stoked to be here. Look at this backdrop pikes right there. Let’s go. Maning you live in the view. That’s your problem. You know you’re kind of in the view. Yeah. Yeah. And you don’t take it for granted. Yeah. You know I grew up on the western slope. Oh yeah. And um you know just on a farm in Fruda. Oh Fruda man. Yeah I’m a farm kid from Fruda. That’s out by where grandma lives man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah I you’ve got the Colorado National Monument there. You’ve got the Grand Mesa um which is the world’s flat, you know, biggest flat top mountain. I’m sure a lot of your your listeners and and viewers are probably here in Colorado. They probably know what I’m talking about. And growing up I just took it for granted, you know. But every time I go back there, which I’m headed there this Friday, my san Yeah. We got San Juan like tellide. So sick. Like we we look at we look at this view and we just take it for granted and we should not because it’s unlike anywhere else in the world, you know? It’s amazing. Yeah. So, it’s pretty cool. I love that. It’s interesting you say that cuz I I graduated high school in a place called Sedona, Arizona. It is It’s so cool, man. I don’t wear my shoes when I go there. I go on runs with no shoes and like the the red Khichi dirt kind of thing. So cool. But when I was there in high school, I’m like, I can’t wait to leave this place. Place sucks. All they got is like red rocks and sunshine and water. It’s dumb, you know? And then I go back, right, because I’m addicted and I’m not mentally healthy. And then I go back and I’m like, I think I’m going to lay in the dirt. Like, this is good. I’m present. And I think that’s the the idea behind what you’re talking about a lot is like I had this inability to get present because of certain set of circumstances. And I love what you said earlier because you didn’t say you were here for alcohol because you weren’t. Mhm. You’re here for grief. Maybe talk with me. We figured that out. Yeah. Maybe talk with me a little bit about that. What you thought you were here for, what you learned, and how you carry that much more digestible message forward to the people that you get to walk with. Yeah. Um, yeah. To talk about that, let’s maybe I’ll just tell a little bit of my story about it. Um, so when I got here, I had been abusing alcohol. I had been I had been drinking heavy for many years. I’m a musician. I’ve been a percussionist for 25 years. Um with that percussionist musician lifestyle um comes partying. And I was drinking heavy and doing the drugs and all the things. And uh there’s Greta. That’s Greta. 13-year-old pitbull. 13-year-old pitbull right there. Good girl. Here you go. But uh yeah, so with with all the party and lifestyle of being a musician, um I was already drinking heavy, but then um my mom unexpectedly passed away and uh I really started self-medicating on the alcohol and so I was really became dependent on it. And it got to the point where I needed help. I wasn’t able to quit the alcohol on my own. Um, so when I got here, this brings us to where we figured out the grief part. You know, obviously we had doctor supervision to get me sober. I was really afraid that I was going to have some sort of a, you know, I thought I might die, you know, or something. Yeah. So, it was it was great to have the 24-hour supervision with your doctors and your nurses. And um you know once I detox and once I started getting into the group therapy and getting into the one-on-one therapy and going to the AA and the dharma and all the things that you guys provide, um we figured out that it was grief. I had not properly grieved. I had just been self-medicating on the alcohol for several months. Uh my mom passed away just right at the kind of right at the beginning of the pandemic really. And um you know I I ended up here um at the kind of kind of when things started opening up a little bit. you know, we were still wearing masks here and there, but um you know, getting into that group therapy is really where um there was just one I was just telling you this earlier that there was a a group session and we all wrote a letter to somebody um that we cared about and I just I chose to write a letter to my mom and just to tell her what was going on. And as I wrote that letter, it brought out it brought out everything. And and then I shared it with the group and I read the letter to the group and I just broke down and there was a it was a major breakthrough. Um broke down in front of the group you know just ugly ugly face crying um tears streaming down and uh it was a major breakthrough and I discovered that that you know obviously I needed to get sober. Mhm. That was one thing, but it was the grief that really was was messing with my mind. And um getting through that and dealing with that g grief was huge. So um and then obviously, you know, the rest is history. Haven’t had a drink in almost 6 years. Let’s go. Grief is an interesting thing. It men and women, but really what I’ve seen over almost an 18 year career is is men really grapple with it. They really grapple with am I tough? Am I not? What was I told? Um, I heard a quote the other day. It’s uh it’s very difficult to control the monster I created to protect the boy inside of me. And I think a lot of times as young boys and it doesn’t have anything to do necessarily with our parents, it’s more generational than anything else. It’s like their parents parents were World War II people. That must have been real hard, you know? And so there is this kind of dusted off, shake it off culture. It’s not anybody’s fault. I think unnecessarily sometimes we point at families and we’re like, but they’re doing the best they can. And so I think sometimes with that grief, it’s it’s it the catalyst is is this big thing with mom, but I think the the breakthrough is a multitude of events that required or um could have involved a grieving process that we just rolled over like a speed bump. And your whole nervous system, your vag nerve from your ankles, I remember cuz I went to the Meadows in 2019 and I did the same thing. I was like It’s like the whole nervous system is like a towel and just was all rung out and it just gets spun back into a, you know, square. Yeah. Oh, it’s gives me chills. So, I think about that often times and then what it informs, correct me if I’m wrong, but maybe you can talk about it, but it informs an opportunity moving forward that when like sad [  ] happens, I can just experience sadness. Or if it’s happiness, I experience happiness. That’s something I’ve learned alongside you in my last 5 years is like how do I really sit with the emotion that comes up and like be okay with experiencing that. Yeah. It’s and that’s the thing is you you have to sit with it like you know that’s that’s how you deal with it. You can’t just brush it off or you can’t just have a drink and you know cover it up. Um, you’ve got to deal with that, you know, and it’s, you know, anytime there’s a new experience, anytime there’s something new that has never happened to you before that might be not good, that might be negative, you kind of have to sit with it. You kind of have to just feel it and feel the feelings. And that’s the thing is, um, you know, big tough guys, we don’t want to feel the feelings. Mhm. But actually, I I was just I think I heard on another podcast um talking about how men we actually tend to feel our feelings even more on internally than than women. Um like we’re more romantic than women are. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell. Cass [laughter] is so she’s a hopeless romantic. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, that’s good. Yeah. But yeah, it’s just Yeah. Yeah. No, I’m just agreeing with you as far as just sitting there feeling the feelings. It’s interesting you say that cuz even though he’s you mentioned something I think very very important is like you said internally I’m not showing that. But that weight that you’re talking about I can certainly relate to and connect with what what that feels like. Mhm. As an entrepreneur business owner, a man, um a husband, a father, a friend. Mhm. a um the CEO of this company, you know. So, it’s it’s it’s heavy sometimes. And and I think the problem becomes is is we don’t find the room of people like you did. Mhm. To to to talk about what that feels like and what it’s felt like. Yeah. Yeah. and you know [clears throat] paying attention um paying attention to what’s happening around you and what what other people are doing and um but not not letting you know that you don’t want to think about you don’t want people you don’t want to think that other people are judging you. You want to you want to be more focused on yourself. You want to um I don’t I’m not I’m not trying to say that you should be selfish, right? But you should be not worrying about what those people are thinking. Yeah. You know, but but also paying attention to what’s happening around you, you know, um being in in that present state. You’re not thinking about the past. You’re not thinking about the future. Um it’s just good to be what is it? Um echer tolli the power of now, you know, staying in in that moment. Um super important and um I love that. Yeah, because it’s it’s on the other side is the psychological suffering that he talks about. Yeah. Right. It is. So, is that the dance? I swear I talk about it so much now. It’s like, but is that the dance? Like really like is the dance figuring out how to be present like in its simplest form, right? Cuz there’s no suffering in the present. Yeah. Cuz we’re here. We’re locked in. Well, well, that’s the thing about, you know, I’m an online health and fitness coach, so I’m on my phone. like my job is on my phone on social media in we’re talking about Instagram, you know. Um that’s the one bad thing about social media is it’s hard to be in the present when you’re when you’ve got that phone in your hand. You know, you’ll be you’ll be you’ll just check your messages real quick and then all of a sudden you scroll once and then 40 minutes later you’re like, “What did I just do?” 40 minutes pass. You know, it’s crazy. Mhm. So, yeah, I think that’s a that’s definitely a skill now is is just keeping in that present moment, you know, and obviously it’s it’s good to it’s good to reminisce about the past and it’s good to learn from the past. It’s good to think about the future and do some planning, you know, um but yeah, just staying in that present, being present with people you’re speaking with um and all the people that are, you know, your loved ones, all the people around you. Yeah, super important. That kind of brings me I just had a thought about that um as a health coach just uh and we were talking about the mental part of it and being being present you know that’s a huge part of when I’m when I’m speaking to my clients trying to be present and really try to take in what they’re talking about cuz a lot of the time it’s you know you’re you almost like a therapist. I don’t have any, you know, I don’t have a degree in psychology or anything like that, but a lot of the time you you end up being kind of a therapist, you know, so it’s I love that, man. And I I actually, you know, when I got into the field almost 20 years ago, a lot of the therapists that were around were just people in long-term recovery playing therapists. I was from Arizona. It’s like the wild west out there, bro. You don’t need a therapy degree. So, I’m just saying I’m not saying it’s the best, but there’s a lot of experience, strength, and hope that people can really really connect with, you know, and and when you meet someone in that present moment like you’re talking about, you’re able to have this connection and this synergy and and then it’s almost like walking with and and I think one of the coolest things about therapy or helping people is showing up in your recovered self. Like you show up spiritually fit, mind, body, soul, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional. So you show up and you sit next to somebody who may or may not be struggling. Dude, I don’t even think we need to say anything. It’s there. I the best therapists I talk to K. I talk on podcasts all the time. I think the best therapists are people that come in and just emulate wholeness and perfection because there was nothing [  ] wrong with you. Right? If you’ve ever I’ I’ve seen babies born. Try and tell me that there’s something wrong with that baby. It’s perfection. Then life happens. [clears throat] Environment, right? But there’s nothing like that baby’s not fallable. It’s perfect, man. I know because I’ve had kids and when they came out, they were perfect and and you’d have a tough time arguing something different with me. So then what happens? Mhm. So then it’s just reintroducing humans to that wholeness and per there was actually nothing wrong with you. Something happened to nothing is wrong with and that’s what I think you so clear so clearly just stated is like yeah I sit with people and I walk with people and it’s it’s not about like getting to the needle in the haststack to figure it out. It’s about showing wholeness and perfection and that you too my friend are just as valuable as me. And so this is all for you to have as well. But I don’t need to turn to the side and be like, “If you want what I am, you do what I do.” You know, but sometimes that’s a good approach for some individuals. You know, they told me in early recovery, and it’s interesting you brought it up, I had never thought about it until you said it. Presence in a gym. I used to go in a gym and I would think I’m in World War II. I’m like fighting everybody in the gym, but nobody’s even paying attention to me. And I’d go tell my sponsor. I’d be like, “Oh my these people in the gym.” Yeah. He would always say, he’d be like, um, you’re not important enough for people. [laughter] They’re really not paying attent. I’m like, no way. I’m like, no, because I was in there and I did a curl and I saw him with my eye, you know? I had never heard anybody explain that there’s just a lack of presence. Yeah. Even though I know that, like, but that’s that’s smart. And now I go into the gym and and I we may be on vacation. We were just in Cabo and with my wife and she’s like I was just I just noticed like the other people in there sometimes are like way more fit and I’m like I don’t see [  ] anybody in there. It’s just me, myself, and I. But it is it has been a process to get there. And maybe it’s the home gym thing. I don’t know. But I have such bad gym etiquette now, Jared, because I have a home gym. Yeah. Well, you’re lucky. Um I I like going to the gym. A lot of people tell me, you know, they like to go to the gym because it gets them motivated because they see everybody else because we’re all there for the same reason, right? Um, for me, I just get that tunnel vision and I prefer to I prefer to train alone. Yeah. Um, you know, obviously if I’m training a client, I’ll I’ll probably train with them a little bit, too. I can’t help myself. Yeah. Yeah. But uh yeah, just getting that tunnel vision and being present and that’s you know that’s how you know that’s how you make make progress is by training with intensity and being with that present state of mind. And people people are always like you know what are you what are you staring at? I’ll be like staring off into space [snorts] in between sets just during my rest period. You know all I’m doing is completely zoning off into space. I’m not thinking about anything but I just look like I’m being a jerk. Like I just have resting jerk face going on and people are like, “What? What’s wrong?” I’m like, “What are you talking about? Everything’s fine, man. Listen to an audio book. What are you doing?” Yeah. I’m like, “I’m listening to a podcast or something, you know.” But uh yeah, it’s you know, the home gym whole another story. You’ve got to motivate yourself, you know. Um and but it’s not always about motivation. It’s it’s more about um being committed and being um disciplined. M and living that lifestyle. And as you’re committed and you do you do the things and you lift with intensity and and you work out dayto day, then you start to see results. And then once you see results, that’s when the motivation comes. And because you see the results physically, that motivates you to keep training. And you know, I’m hoping to have a a home gym of my own someday, but uh it’s the it’s the it in the pandemic when everything was shutting down, you know, I got like the last weights or whatever and did this and started building it. And I had um a friend of mine who’s a graffiti artist come in and graffiti the whole wall. And so I have like Pikes Peak up there. And then I have a silhouette of my family running through the Garden of the Gods. And one of my favorite quotes that says, “Don’t give up. Don’t ever give up.” Then I got a big Peaks logo over there. Nice. So, it’s nice. Then I got my cold plunge, my sauna. It’s kind of like you’re speaking my language. I just love it, man. Sometimes I’ll just walk out there and like pop open the cold plunge, put my finger in it, smell the water. Weird, man. But I like the water really clean. What? Just make sure it’s real clean. The sauna real clean, you know, everything. It’s like a sanctuary. Yeah. What kind of sauna do you have? I have Is it like a infrared or It’s an infrared. Infrared. It’s an infrared. And I got it from Sun Sunundor outdoor saunas. Okay. Outdoor sauna. But it’s it’s in my garage and I was always kind of skeptical about the infrared thing because I’d always done hot rock. But I love it. So about halfway through my workout, I turn it on. I get it about 145 to 151, which feels like low compared to 200, 210 for infrared. That’s pretty high for infrared. Yeah. So, and I was reading something the other day that you actually get the best bang for your buck between 120 and 140, which kind of upset me because I’ve been doing like 145 to 151, but yeah, it’s not it’s not very much difference. Yeah, marginal. Yeah. Okay, that’s interesting. Yeah, I knew that for infrared it’s right around the 140. Mhm. Um for optimal um for detox and for, you know, you you get a little bit of a boost of testosterone. Um, depending on what infrared do you have? Um, near infrared or is it far? It’s probably far infrared. How would you know? Um, it you probably have to Okay. see like in the instructions or, you know, there’s probably a description on which which uh I bet they’re like black panels all over. Got black panels. Black panels down here. And it was one of those things. It’s only a few grand. It’s kind of like the ones they have at like Costco or Shields. Yeah. Those ones in there. It’s a twoerson, but really it’s just like a good one person. Cool. We can lay down. Yeah. But I love it. Do it every day after I strength train. I love sauna. Yep. Right after right after your workout. Mhm. It’s great. Wait a little bit before you cold plunge or maybe cold plunge before your workout. I’ve been doing it, you know, I’ve been I used to always do it early in the morning first thing when I woke up cuz I was like that guy within 5 minutes of waking up. I’m in the water just shocking the [  ] out of myself. I [laughter] don’t just cuz you know that guy, right? I’m like it’s 4:03. Yeah. There you go. But I stopped doing that. There was just too much intensity in the morning. I like to journal, pray, meditate, pet my dog, drink a cup of coffee, do do your thing, do my thing, and then go out and do it. So, I’ve been doing the evening. So, we go for the evening walk, which frankly, man, you’re the one who always inspires it. I don’t I love evening walks, but it’s like the last thing I want to do because I wake up at 4:00 and so I go to like I’m laying in bed at 7:00, like I’m chilling, man. But you’ve really inspired me to hit out on those evening walks. So, what I’ve been doing lately is I’d be get done with the get done with dinner, go for the walk, come back, jump in the water, jump in the hot tub, take a shower, and then get to bed. That kind of thing. Sounds like sounds like the life. Yeah. So, I wanted to chat about something that’s like I’m super passionate about right now, as I’ve told you, is is like music and reggae and and and you’re a percussionist. You were in bands. Tell me about like I always like cuz one of my favorite things to do is go to shows and just watch the drummers. Mhm. I’m like, “That guy is so [  ] cool.” So rad. Or like Common Kings, I’ll sit there and watch electric guitars with his hat backwards. And like if he’s got a little wind going like the whole thing, I’m like, “Dude, I always think like you can just make people move, man. When you say hands to the right, they go right and you go left and they go right.” And so the feeling, so one of our weeks in treatment is identity and purpose. And so I talked to you about we got a lot of artists. And one of the things is I could imagine like when you’re get people moving to the groove and then it’s over or it’s not or whatever like it’s got to be hard to emulate that in life and to feel those endorphins and to feel that kind of stuff. And so maybe take take me on a little journey of what it was like cuz you did say you got kicked out of the band eventually but I know you’re back in it now and doing your thing and hanging out with my boy Collie Buds and all that stuff. So maybe take me a little bit through like the artist journey and what’s acceptable and and why it’s acceptable and cultured and where you see yourself now. Um well music I I mean it’s it’s funny when I I come across somebody that says they don’t like music. Like are you kidding me? Who doesn’t like music? Yes. Some believe it or not there are people out there that don’t like music, you know? Um, one of the first bands I was ever in, uh, the the father of our band manager was our driver to a gig out of town. And I remember we put on the music on the stereo and he said and he’s like, “No, we got to turn that off. If you want to visit, we can visit.” So he wanted he was okay with visiting but not okay with listening to music. You want to talk? Um, but me, I always just, you know, I always just loved music. Um, I had I had a singing background in middle school and high school, and I always used to want to play drums. I was always banging on stuff, asking for drums, asking my parents for drums, and they they were like, “No, you’re just going to make too much racket.” Yeah. And uh I was like, you know, I didn’t actually pick up a drum until I I was early 20s. Oh wow. Um I was about 22 20 I think I was about 22 and I was at a medieval sword fighting event. That’s a whole another story. I used to have medieval sword fight and uh there was big belly belly dancing circles and big drum circles and I just happened to be sta standing there drinking my my ale in my medieval garb and I’m watching the belly dancers and some lady just turned to me and said hey you. I was like me. She’s like yeah you. She’s like pick up that drum. I said okay. And I picked up the drum and she’s like, “Play, you know, play the drum.” And I didn’t know what I was doing, but I just started watching them. And as soon as I started playing that drum, it was like a lightning bolt like hit me like of energy and I was like, “Holy crap.” Then I felt it. I felt it all the way. Maybe it was a past life something. I felt this just the like the synergy, the energy, the the just the amazing feel that I knew that this was what I was supposed to be doing like a Were you able to kind of do anything? No, I Yeah, I could play. I mean, I was just playing for for somebody who didn’t know. Yeah, just mimicking. I was just in the same rhythm as everybody, you know. Cool. But I just got struck. I got I just felt it and I spent my last 50 bucks on a little ceramic doom. It’s a Middle Eastern drum, an hour-shaped ceramic drum. Uh, spent my last 50 bucks that day on that drum, and just started playing and started playing along with the radio, and anytime I had a chance, I started playing with other people. And uh, pretty soon I I sought out um, some formal training in college. And because I had the the singing background, I knew how to read standard notation. And that’s helpful. So, yeah. So, I had to audition to learn how to play. And then that’s when I started getting like the formal training um in in Afrouban Conga. And uh you know, pretty soon I started going to open mics and I became a member of that first band I was talking about. And then uh got to play with a with a popular reggae band for about 10 years. What was the name of that? Um they were called Lion Vibes. Lion Vibes. Um we were we were kind of a big deal over on the Western Slope in Grand Junction uh for many years. and we moved over to the Denver area. I moved to Boulder and um we we played all the pretty pretty much most of the bigger venues um throughout Colorado and you know that band ended up um dismantling and uh now I play in the band uh Amonga. It’s a ninepiece afrobeat band and we’ve been around for 15 years based in Denver. Um we’re actually playing up in Fort Collins at Odell’s. Oh, sweet. Um uh we’ve got some other shows lined up this summer. Nine piece. That’s funified right there. But to answer your question, you know, um just that feeling, you know, there’s no there’s nothing like being in the flow. You know, we talk about being in the flow. When I’m playing music, there’s I’m not thinking about it’s the now. It’s I’m not thinking about the past. I’m not thinking about the future. I’m just playing along with the music. So, I’m in this flow state and there’s nothing like it. Um, so I mean, and a lot of the time, you know, I’ll be in a bad mood and I’ll show up to band rehearsal and just playing a couple songs cheers me right up right away. It’s just I’m I’m back I’m back in the flow. I’m back to normal. I I realize this is me. This is me in my element. Um, you know, tomorrow’s a new day. You know, there’s that’s a it just puts things into perspective where you know there’s only 24 hours in a day. Uhhuh. And you know, a lot of the time you can’t change things, you know, so you can only control what you can control. So I love that. Did that answer the question? It totally and actually it it made me think of it. I’m not going to bore you because I’ve talked about it on the podcast, but I remember the first time that I touched my passion, you know, to do this peaks thing and walk with people. I was like, “People get paid for this [  ] to just [laughter] talk to people.” [  ] really really like I’m like cool. So I guess I’ll do that the but I remember that it it actually was very synonymous with the way you described that nervous system like no maybe it was a past life. Maybe I was and I always say I had this experience of like this I had this overwhelming sense that this is right where you’re supposed to be. And it just it took a while for you to get here. Mhm. It’s really beautiful. And any band that has Lion in it with Reggae, I I can just already see what kind of belt. Yeah, man. I just I love the drums. I love the percussion. I love the um the stick figure guy who does it, but he also does for hip abduction. Yep. Will Will Phillips. Yeah, he reminds me a lot of you, too, man. And And I wonder I’ve played a show with him. Really? Is he a good dude? Yeah, good dude. We can’t say he’s bad now. I got I met him down I met him down in Mexico at Closer to the Sun Festival. No way, dude. I was down there in 24. I was down there um last not this last one, but the year before last. Yeah. So 24 December. 20. No, it was December 25. Oh, so last year. Yeah. Okay. I was down there. Stick figure was down there last year. Stick Figure was there too, bro. Wasn’t that the coolest when it started raining right at the end? Oh, no. You Okay. Were they there last year? Maybe that was dude. Okay. So 100%. You got Okay. All right. We’re switching topics right now, [laughter] bro. One of the best shows of my life. Okay. Okay. So, cuz you got the the elevators, they open for Stick, remember? Yeah. And then Stick comes out. They’re doing They’re jamming Kong. They’re doing their thing. And then I It was glow night, remember? Yep. Yeah, dude. [laughter] It was glow night. Where were you, man? I was on the left. Yeah. Okay. So, I was glowing and stick figure I’m like I got I got stick figures. I love stick figure. Different than most reae. Not all about smoking weed and beaches. It’s about life and some emo stuff and things and you know, life happens. So, I couldn’t wait to see Stick Figure, but the last song or two, it just starts sprinkling a little bit. Remember? Yep. And I was looking around and people were like, “It’s the best day of my life.” It was one of those moments, man. Great. That’s cool. You were there. It was great. Well, so I end up meeting him cuz there there one of the days um the drummer for uh for Slightly Stupid had a drum workshop in Oh, the hard rock. Okay. Okay. So, I attended that and got to meet Will afterwards. We were just talking and he was telling me how he used to be the percussionist for Orone. Orone is a funk band out of Oregon. Okay. And my band Ata actually opened for Oregon at Cervantes in Denver. Dang. And so we actually played like we I opened for him. I had met him at that show. We we figured it out when through conversation. But yeah, and you know, I follow him on Instagram and we have different backgrounds as far as, you know, and it’s not a competition. Like, no one’s better than anybody else. Um, but I I could really see myself, uh, you know, doing a lot of the same things that he does on stage. Um, cuz I just saw the hip abduction, too. I saw him with them, too. Were you at Red Rocks when they were just there with the elevators? I wasn’t I wasn’t at that show, but they played um reggae rise up at Tiko Tico time. Oh, cool. Yeah. So, dude, hip abduction is a vibe. Ryzen vibes. Sorry. Ryzen vibes. I get them mixed up. That’s right. Yeah. Hip abduction’s a vibe. They’re great. I like those guys. I’ I’ve thought about reaching out to them and seeing if they ever need another percussionist. That seems like your vibe. I Bro, I saw him in Black Sheep. Yeah. You’ve been to Black Sheep in Colorado Springs? Oh, yeah. Played there many years ago. Yeah. So, I saw Hip Abduction there. I’m like, dude, I saw Mahal there. Yeah. They have a lot of great big band. It’s a very intimate venue. Yeah, algorithm was just there. I’m like, this is sweet, man. And it’s like so small and dingy, but you can basically like do the strings with them, you know? You’re right there. You can touch the guitar. That’s so cool. It is really cool. It reminds me of um Belly Up Aspen. Have you ever been to that venue? Venue? No, but I’ve seen it. Yeah. It’s [snorts] I think it holds maybe 300. Oh, cool. And it’s just it’s state-of-the-art sound and lights and it’s just right there. You’re right there on top of the band, basically. It’s so cool. I’ve got I’ve had the pleasure of playing there multiple times. Oh, no way. Um, yeah. It’s Is there improv when when you are doing it feels like Will and people like you when you’re out there getting after it, especially when he does that thinging thing like it feels like is there a lot of improv? Depends on the band. Okay. Yeah, it depends on the band. Um, obviously, you know, you’re going to have your set parts. Yeah. And a lot of the time as an auxiliary percussionist as they call us or a congarero or depends on what your auxiliary percussion is, but you’re not the drum kit player. So you a lot of the time you you’re making up your your patterns. You’re making up your parts um real time. Yeah. Well, yeah. Um usually through rehearsal. Okay. Unless you’re just playing with the band without a rehearsal, okay? You know, but a lot of the time you’re making up your parts and then you just repeat those same same parts. So, you have your you have your rehearsed parts. But, um, yeah, you can always throw some little things in there. The more comfortable you are, and you know, the more comfortable the band is with you that you can always be playful and you can you can add some impro improvisation. You know, there’s always that time when, you know, it’s opened up to to a solo or something like that. Cuz, you know, anytime you see a band with a percussionist, there’s always going to be a drum jam at some point, right? Um, so, you know, you see me, I I I love to dance shows, but a lot of time if they have a percussionist, you’ll just see me standing there staring staring at the percussionist, studying him, judging him, just Yeah. Just judging him. Hip abduction does a real good tribal. So, does Soja, dude. Yeah. They bring out They bring out all the Yeah. So kills. Um yeah, they they bring them out. Have you seen the band Tropadelic? No, but I love them. They do a little percussion thing, too. They don’t have a designated percussionist, but they bring out some big drums and stuff. So much fun, some big toms and stuff. Yeah. They start going with that. I’m like, oo. Yeah. And the drumming. Just talking about that, too. You know, that might be some a cool thing to do for some of the recovery people here. Yeah. um do like a like a facilitated drum circle cuz that really like I said to just get in that flow and not thinking about the the future of the past just concentrating on that drumming just that heartbeat you know um can be super therapeutic I think you know that gives me an idea we do we go to the drum circle yeah you were just telling one somewhere you just I just stole you know healthize down to Colorado Springs once a week for a drum circle you know yeah you’re in Boulder though you’re not in That’s a little farther tech center. We have an office up at Hampton. Yeah, I think that’d be cool, man. Then what we would be able to do if we did something like that, you would get everybody in the millu once a month, which would be cool, you know, and it’d be a bolt on to like we need some more gem bays. But well, that’s that’s something kind of brings me to like do you have a well like a a health and wellness program set up through? Yeah, the only problem is is the insurance doesn’t cover it. So anything we we provide on that side of things is out of our pocket, but we understand from an outcomes perspective what’s good for humans. So not only have an alumni program um we have a um a movement team. So we have Tara who’s our activities director. She does yoga, raiki, mindfulness, breath work, individual sessions with raiki, breath work, group sessions, restorative, intense otherwise. Um we have Dr. Wade on site there on Tuesdays ambulating people. We have, you know, parapolgics, people that are having tough time moving, gets them moving, gets the joints firing. We got massage on Thursday. Bobby, you know, Bobby takes folks out four days a week on hikes. So, we’ve really oriented kind of like the movement team to like to your point like get up and out of the grief room chair, you know, after a long day of grief, like let’s go out and let’s get some sunshine. So, it’s very near and dear to our heart. You know what’s interesting about it is that like we used to put yoga on our website and we got in trouble from the insurance company. They’re like, “Yeah, it’s not a researchbased modality. You do that, we’ll give you $0.” So, we have to be really mindful with mindfulness because it’s not a researchbased modality per these publicly traded insurance companies, right? What about strength training? We do strength training, too. Yeah. We have the ability to do strength training. Dr. Wade will write people some programming, but we have all the stuff. I mean, we got half racks, we got benches, we got dumbbells, we’ve got newer equipment than when you were there. We got rowers. Um, we get the power blocks, you know, space savers. That’s awesome. So, but, you know, I’m always looking for opportunities to integrate, especially alumni, man. Especially with what what you’ve watched and employees. Yeah. You know. Mhm. Um, you know, like I I am working on a business with a partner. Um, we’re starting to um help small businesses um with their own corporate health and wellness. Mhm. Um, shout out Brian Vite. Brian Vite. You’re talking about for the team. His his business is called Vite Vite. Okay. And it’s Yeah, we we help employees with their health and fitness. That’d be nice. So that can like lower insurance premiums. It can lower sick time. I imagine your employees, this place is probably so awesome to work for that you probably don’t have very many people calling out sick. The only thing that gets us is like when somebody has a baby. So like last year we spent, you know, 180 grand in health insurance benefits for the team and then our cost was like their their cost was 275. So our rates just go up. But outside of But you’re absolutely right. They have programs within insurance companies specifically like if you drive you can put this thing in to say you don’t speed or on the health insurance side you can get these blood things and you can get group rates that are more enticing and things like that. So I think it’s something that’s worth exploring especially in behavioral health. Mhm. Cuz I just know when the team’s able to show up whole and full and healthy, we’re able to do some pretty tremendous stuff. Yeah. And that’s why when people are struggling with mental health, it’s important for them to kind of take some time, get it together, and come on back cuz the work we do, it’s just necessary that you show up right sized. Yeah. And you know, the people that are putting they’re they’re giving a lot of themselves to the people that are here to get help. So a lot of the time when you’re when you’re helping others, you don’t take the time to help yourself. And so you got to take that time to help yourself. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s that’s another thing that we haven’t talked about in a long time, but I think it’s really important, too, is, you know, staff burnout. I remember when I was going to treatment again in 2019 with 11 years sober, I was like, “What the why the [ __ ] am I doing this? This is stupid.” But everybody’s like, “Dude.” So I go and then I come back. I’m like, “Oh.” Oh, you don’t It’s not just about sleeping when you die. No. Oh, you you if you don’t sleep, you die. Yeah. If you Holy crap. Exactly. You know, I had to rewire everything. Yeah. Um if if you follow that follow that routine, you’ll die quicker. [laughter] Exactly, man. If you don’t sleep, you’ll die quicker. Yeah. And but the generation So important. Recovery huge. generation before me. I mean, your dad’s your dad or my dad, you know, it was like, I’ll sleep when I die. Yeah. And in fact, my grandfather, you actually get a gold star for sleeping when you die, right? Like the less you sleep and the more you work, the more you’re revered in community, more respect you get. Yeah. We need to we need we need to change that. Change it, man. For sure. Yeah. And so people are like, “Well, you you um you know, you wake up early in the morning and you you know, you do all this stuff.” Um and it seems really hard. Yeah. And it’s Well, what’s more hard is getting to 60 or 65 and realizing that my heart’s failing, having to get cut over for them to put a stint in only to treat a symptom of a greater problem that I could have just got a little bit of sun and a little bit of movement. So there used to be a friend of mine named Christian and he would always say in recovery we got to control the controllables. Mhm. You know, and your your mission and your vision and your recovery, I think, speaks really really clearly to that, you know. Yeah. It was uh I’ll never forget the day I the day I I left. Um you guys actually gave me a ride back to Boulder. Really? And uh dropped me off. I put my suitcase in my house and went straight to the gym. There’s a 24-hour fitness right there. That’s it. About two blocks away from my house. Didn’t even go like I barely even go inside and just walked right in. got a gym membership and yeah, and you know, obviously the the rest is history, but uh yeah, it was it was just, you know, the the care that I the care that I was given here really is what changed my life. Um every single person that that I came into contact with genuinely cared. Um there there was not a bad attitude. No one had a bad attitude. Everyone had great attitudes. Um tons of love. Um and you know, it was just really inspiring. And you know, um as I started to uh educate myself, um we’re going back to the passion thing. Um I’m lucky in in life to have found my two passions. that’s music and health and fitness because the more I started educating myself on it, the more I started seeing results and just feeling better and getting healthier and listening to podcasts and really starting to educate myself and much like I did with the drums, I I sought out formal training. So, I went ahead and got my my health um my integrative nutrition health um coach certificate. Oh, sweet. And so, yeah, just in uh institute for integrative nutrition. Um, so it’s integrative. So you’re learning, you know, western medicine, you’re learning a lot of different ways and different approaches. Eastern medicine, you’re and and then, you know, I I thought I was going to be a great health coach. And as I kept training and falling more in love with strength training and learning more about the science of that, um, and people asking me to train them, I went ahead and got my National Academy of Sports Medicine certified personal trainer. So now I can do both health because health and fitness are two different things but they work really well together. So I can do health coaching and I can do personal training. That’s really cool. That’s way better. I mean a lot of people have NASM and they go in but it’s almost like a psychologist like you really need to be psychopysiological, right? So I love that you you encapsulated that with the people you’re walking with cuz it’s both and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s just, you know, just lucky that I found that passion, too, and then I turned it into my career, you know. Um, I would like the music part to be more of my career. But it’s really hard to make any money playing music. I would like that, too, man. I would want nothing more than to be at Red Rocks and watching my dude up there jamming. I’d be like, you you never know. You never know. It could happen. Oh, there’s still meat on the bone. I always say, and I go into a Tuesday alumni night, and you agree with this, but it was hard. You probably wouldn’t be able to hear this when you first got here. I go into the Tuesday alumni night and I always say before I speak, I said, “The most successful people that I have ever met in my life, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, monetarily, if you will, are people that called this place home.” Yeah. You guys are lighting the world on fire. I stay in touch. Like the most successful people. Yeah. Absent of money with or without people in recovery. Yeah. They just have a way of attracting good people around them. And I’ve been finding myself lately. I’m like, man, I’ve just been having a soc.
Yeah. I mean, well, I was, man, I was I you struck me when I first met you. Um, I was very impressed by you. Like you just the way you were your ego, you kept your ego in check. I was like, if if I was him, I would I would probably not be coming around and hanging out with all of us alcoholics every [laughter] day. And there was one story, you’ve probably already told it on this podcast before, that you a story that I remember you telling about um just getting pulled over, but like it wasn’t a pullover story, but it was like dealing with the law. And you were talking about how you were you were working in a I think maybe it was a pullover story. Uhhuh. But maybe I’m getting two two stories mixed together. Maybe you can tell the story if you haven’t told it already. There’s one where you you were working at a convenience store and you were giving your friends like Oh yeah. Free cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah. So I was in I was in early recovery. Tell that story real. Yeah. So here it is like behaviors die last. I’m sober, right? And uh so I’m working at the gas station. I’ve told it before but not in a while. This is a good one. Making 725 an hour. In my 22-year-old mind, I thought this is about a $12 an hour job. So, I was like, well, I’ll take a pack of smokes for myself and an energy drink and I’ll ring all my friends up for 99 cent waters to do the same. Yeah. So, I’m like a year into the job. I just get hired in treatment. I had to have a year sober and I get a knock at my door b and I answer the door and it’s police officer and he’s like, “Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns here.” I said, “Yeah, Mr. Burns.” He said, “We got you on camera stealing from the Woody’s gas station.” I said, “No, man. I’m sober.” [laughter] That was the point. Yeah. And he goes, he goes, “Yeah, for sure.” And I said, “No, no, I’m sober.” He’s like, “Right on, man.” Like, “Cool. Does it mean you’re still breaking the law?” And I was like, “Oh, shoot.” And my sponsor the whole time, I was telling him I was doing it. He was always like, “Let me know when you’re ready to give that up.” So, I called him when I was saying, “I think I’m ready.” Yeah, man. It’s so funny you remember that, man. It’s interesting what sticks with people. It It did. I was just like, “Yeah, just because you’re sober doesn’t mean that you’re legal.” Yeah. [laughter] And in fact, it can go real bad, you know? So, well, let before we jump, man, it’s been just been so nice connecting with you today. We did a tour before. We walked around, we reminisced, we had the pop. It’s been really cool. I really appreciate you taking time and coming down. I know you’re busy, but before we jump off, maybe just let the the the the guests and the viewers know where they can find you, website. Um, obviously, we’re going to blast all this information all over social media. Um, yeah. So, okay. Well, um, my email is jared jalthimise. It’s health and optimize smashed into one word. h e a l t ht t i m i z.com. healthize.com the website. I’m switching servers right now. It’s it’s not up right now. It’s under construction, but um you can find me jballero on Instagram. Um you can look me up Jared Fisher on Facebook. I think I’m the only fitness coach that’s on Facebook. Um, but I just provided my email address and yeah, keep an eye out on the website. I’m on LinkedIn. Um, you can just look me up Jared J A R E D Fisher F I S C H E R and you’ll find me. Yeah. Yeah, we’ll make sure too. Coug will put it on there. We’ll make sure at the bottom at the end of the podcast they got all the information. Yeah. So, well man, I really appreciate your time. I appreciate you, man. Yeah. And the opportunities. So proud of you. Thank you, dude. And Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. Keep rocking it. Thank you so much. Until next time, my beautiful people. Peace. Let’s go. Good stuff, [music] man. Hell yeah, brother.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down once again with Bryce Givens, CEO of True North Recovery Services, for an authentic conversation about leadership, entrepreneurship, and the responsibility that comes with serving others. From building successful businesses to embracing the Misogi mindset of doing something so challenging it changes you, Bryce shares how the hardest pursuits often produce the greatest growth, not just professionally, but personally. Together, Chris and Bryce explore the importance of mentorship, surrounding yourself with the right people, and the powerful philosophy of “Who, Not How” when building organizations that truly make an impact. At the center of the conversation is a simple but profound truth: in behavioral healthcare, people come first. Whether discussing leadership, partnerships, or the daily work of helping individuals find recovery, Bryce reminds us that leading with your heart isn’t a weakness; it’s what creates lasting change.

Learn more about True North Recovery Services at tnrs.care.

Proximity is power. And so it’s like getting around the right group of people who are on that same wavelength, who are like have the same characteristics and attributes and values that you do and aligning yourself with those types of people is like makes all the difference, right? It’s the process. It’s the struggle. It’s what I learn about myself along the way. What I’m capable of, what I can get through. And to really remind myself that like, man, we’ve been to hell. This isn’t it, right? I love going to work every day and then I love going home every day. And so like that’s a great life for me, dude. Like I I’m so blessed. I’m so grateful. And yeah, there’s hard [ __ ] happens every day, but like that’s part of the game. That’s part of it. And I love that cuz I’m growing and I’m learning.
[music]
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and of course enthusiastic enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, Christopher Burns, chief executive officer, president and founder of Peaks Recovery. We got Pikes out to the left today. Couldn’t be more grateful to be joined by a true friend, colleague, Bryce Given, True North. Welcome back, sir. So glad to be back. Oh man. Got Pikes Peak in the background. This is an awesome studio. Your other studio was dope, too, but I kind of like this one better. It’s a little bit more simple, a little bit more grounded in nature. Yeah, I love it. You know, it’s not the downtown vibe. Yeah. Which I loved, but it’s great. It’s more nature vibe. And then like being on your campus earlier, it’s like more aligned with like the campus vibe. It’s sick. I think so, too. I love it, dude. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Grateful to have you on, man. We just did a um tour on campus. got to walk around like the 13 acres, kind of immerse Bryce a little bit in kind of what we’re doing culturally, clinically, and otherwise. And just really grateful to have you down. We were talking a bit before the show, and you mentioned honestly one of my favorite entrepreneurs, and I was going to ask ask you a follow-up question, but I was like, I’m just going to bring it on the show. Cool. So Jesse Sler. Yeah, love Jesse, the goat. Yeah, man. Love him. So what do you think about this idea as an entrepreneur? because I kind of want to talk about a few things today. Maybe like family, business, faith, being a father. Um, but a lot of one days at a time for sure. Y and one of the things Jesse does is in December, I’m assuming he maps out the 365 days of the next year. Big ass calendar. Yeah. I’ve been a club member for like four years now. Really, dude? I love it. Oh, that’s cool. I love it. Let’s go. Yeah, he’s the man, dude. Like so Jesse kind of I mean he’s been so um transformational in my journey kind of like indirectly obviously um but like I read his book Living with a Seal when I was at Pier 1. So I was in treatment at Pier 1 and I read Living with a Seal and I was like who is this Navy Seal dude? And so that was my first exposure to David Gogggins. But then like even more so there were so many cool things in that book um that I learned and then you know went to p did the whole thing went to prison got out all this stuff and then um after getting out like I forget how he targeted me with something but I was really into like the self-help space and that kind of stuff uh and and just learned about him and learned about all the cool stuff that he’s doing and there’s like so much like u alignment with how he lives his life and some of the practices that he’s implemented that like I’ve now taken on and that have actually shaped not only my life but then like our like my close sphere’s life and then our business’s life as well. He’s dope, dude. He’s the man. Yeah, he really is. And didn’t he start out like trying to be a rapper or something like that? Yeah, dude. Well, so the Nicks just won, right? And like he did this song back in the day, like the Nick song back just a gangster like entrepreneur and like that kind of mindset about like dude, he just is he’s hungry and he’s passionate, he’s got good energy and he’s like positive and like he just gets after it. And then like he sold what was it like I think Marquee Jet or NetJet or something like that. Yeah. Whatever it is something sick. Yeah. Like he’s just he’s a G dude. And I see that and I’m not on social media or anything other than recently LinkedIn. Got back on LinkedIn cuz my LinkedIn got nuked. So Oh yeah. Got back on that. I need to refresh my LinkedIn. I need some help. It’s kind of it’s it’s whatever on socials. But you’re going like [laughter] when I was on socials though like I followed him and I was like man this dude’s dope. like he seems like super authentic and genuine and not one of these dudes who just like is doing it for like views or clicks or likes or whatever. Like he’s seems like a dope dad. He’s married to um what’s her name? Sarah Sarah Blakeley who owns Spank like just an entrepreneurial family and the way that like he portrays his life but then also I know some people who do know him and so like through hearsay um he just seems like an awesome dude and so like I try to emulate the things that um other people who have been entrepreneurs been awesome dads been awesome family man been he loves the endurance stuff so we’ll talk about the masogi stuff but like we do this masogi thing every single year now and like I got that directly from him. Um, and so yeah, Jesse Ethler’s the man, dude. I definitely got the masogi from him as well. I think I’ve talked about the misogi this year. I don’t have one. Okay. I don’t know why I didn’t do one. What was it? I was trying to help someone else with theirs. That was going to be my masogi. I forget. But I don’t have one. But I went down to Ecuador and hiked around in the volcanoes. That was my one this year. You did it? No, that was the year before. Okay. Sick. Yeah, it was one. Yeah, dude. It’s dope. Yeah. What’s yours? We’re doing this year. So, the first year we did one, we did 4×4 by 48. So, goggens run four miles every 4 hours, 48 hours. That was cool. Was it hard? It was tough. Yeah. But like that after doing like Iron Man and stuff, it’s like you get break. Yeah. Right. That’s cool. Yeah. Uh then last year we did rim to rim to rim which was dope. I would love to do that. So dope. And you’re a runner like dude that’s How long did it take you to do that? So we were aiming for uh like 12 and a half. I get through. So short here the short answer is it took us about 16 and a half 17. Okay. I get through like the first seven miles. We started at 1:00 a.m. I get down. We run down south Kaab cross the bridge go over Phantom Phantom Ranch. And then uh it’s still dark out. So we’re wearing our headlamps and we’re cruising. We’re booking. Feeling good. And then I come around this corner and I see these light these like eyes looking at me and they’re like, you know, I’m 6’6, like they’re tall. I freak out. I jolt like this and like I pulled something in my IT band. Oh, dude. So I was like, ah, like my IT band’s a little rough. So keep on going. We keep running, but it’s starting to get worse and worse and worse. Then we get to the north uh north rim, start hiking up, get up to North Rim. We’re making great time. We’re at like I don’t know, and it’s not hurting up, but it’s about to hurt coming down, bro. So like we get up and it was like 6 hours. We were on track. Okay. Turn around, start coming down, just brutal, blew up. I couldn’t run. So I had to basically power hike the rest of the way. Ended up taking us about Yeah. 16 17. We had a group of eight of us there. So uh me and a buddy of mine, we were kind of the lead pack. Incredible though, dude. Have you you’ve been to the Grand Canyon, dude? It’s so sick. I wanted What is it like 40 miles? It was 46 miles, 12,000 feet of vert up and down. So, it was a good one. That’s dope. Yeah, it was just so cool though. So, um yeah, just being out in like wild nature like that is just so sick. Um so, we did that last year and then this year we’re doing uh you mentioned like South America, we’re doing the Salt Conte Trail. So, it’s you know the Inca trail. All right. So, this is a different trail leading into Machu Picchu. Okay. And so you get up over 15,200 feet on one of these passes, the Sante pass. So we’re doing 70k over two days. Um high up, but like the thing is now like with it being like the world heritage site and all this stuff, you have to have like sherpas or whatever or guides. So we’re going to try to make it as hard as possible. So it’s not going to be like super duper misoge, but it’s going to be like a spiritual misogi and like doing it with the homies. It’s going to be fun. Yeah, that’s kind of how it was for us, too. is like I went out there to do it, but like all of a sudden like my guy’s son’s showing up. He’s 13. He’s done the mountain like you know 74 times. He’s like just give him your [  ] I’m like [  ] All right. All right. Fine. Like I’m not going to like yeah here’s my axe, man. Like don’t check my [  ] [laughter] But it was it was spiritual and it was so much more. And you know what it was bigger than anything? What I’ve learned about the masogi and anything like really really difficult like a capstone is the process man. Totally. It’s the process. It’s the struggle. It’s what I learn about myself along the way. What I’m capable of, what I can get through. and to really remind myself that like, man, we’ve been to hell. This isn’t it, right? Just keep on moving. And what that does as an entrepreneur um from a resilience perspective to be able to push through because it can be incredibly lonely sometimes as an entrepreneur. And I think Jesse does a great job of tying in family and business and seems to be able to show up one day at a time. But those moments, especially in these owner-led big hard operations, when things go south on the business side of things, there’s not a lot of people we can talk to. Totally. You know, totally. And so then it’s like, that’s why I brought that up. It’s like, what do us entrepreneurs do to ensure like my um my financial adviser, Key Wealth Management out of Arizona, I’m the Bobby and I are the only males they work with. I could tell you how I got it, but it’s a longer story. But it’s a group of female entrepreneurs. They’re sick. Um, but I chatted with them two months ago and they were like, “Chris, we have to have this program where we have to be able to get a hold of you.” I’m like, “Why, dude? I’m always because if we can’t get a hold of you, we need to be able to send a wellness check.” And I’m on the phone with these people. I’m like, it it’s been a rough couple years out there. You know what I mean? it my financial advisors are are are setting up documents and and and have them assigned certain things so that they can do wellness checks for entrepreneurs because it really does feel like sometimes and we talked about this pre-show that it’s like I have to figure this out on my own, right? And and I think it’s more about what I’ve learned over the last couple of years. I think it’s more about us getting together as entrepreneur groups, business owners and leaders in a safe place and talking about the [  ] that’s really going on, you know? Totally. Because then we can grow through it instead of be scared of it, you know? Right. That’s what I like about this kind of masogi thing though too is because it’s like and we talked about this before the show too about like the superficialness that we experience in in all industries I’m sure experience this but like even founders and entrepreneurs like a lot of stuff is superficial. Mh. And so the cool thing about like doing hard [  ] physically and mentally and spiritually, but if you do it together with other like-minded people who might be on that same level, whether they’re they own a mortgage business or they own a behavior, it doesn’t matter. But like being able to connect on like a deeper level like helps other people process that. And that’s why like I like I told you back at the the campus like super appreciate you and like you know we’re not like super close but all of our interactions and just how you show up is is super impactful and it makes a difference and I appreciate it and just like that your willingness to want to like help support me who’s like you know 8 years you’re uh you’re younger if that makes sense. I don’t even know what the right word is, right? Like businessywise, right? Like you’re a lot further ahead than I am. And like for you to like have the time take the time out of your day to like help support me is really [  ] dope and I appreciate it. Yeah, man. And it’s sick, dude. Cuz that that’s what really matters, right? It’s the connection aspect. Like we were talking about this in treatment, too. like being the personableness of like being there and hearing somebody and like being able to like relate with them on some aspect or some certain level like um that’s why your business is thriving is because like that range true that’s the truth and like showing up for people so I just appreciate that but that’s crazy that your financial adviser has this set up I can’t imagine what they have gone through for them to have to put something like that in place it’s wild people are struggling people are struggling and people come in and I think so often the world is like you know what what’s wrong with you and if you just take a moment and you sit with people
you realize that very quickly we all have very similar goals totally want to be happy want to be healthy want to have relationships want to be in our kids’ lives um but we’ve we’ve we’ve dismantled the way in which we get there right and so and from a very human perspective just kind of walking alongside side and we talked about it at the office. It’s been such a breath breath of fresh air. I think the struggle and the strife over the last few years have put me in a position where like I’m not out in front of anything, man. I’m not an expert on anything, but I’m a part of a lot, you know? Totally. And I who else is a part of a lot is a team of experts that inform this whole freaking thing. And I’m grateful to be a small sliver of a much bigger process. Totally, dude. you know, whereas before it’s like I I just didn’t find myself in good spots because I didn’t have great people around me because I wasn’t open enough to ask for the help that I needed, right? You know, that’s a hard thing to do, too. Like how do you get to a place um a that you know you’re asking the right people and like what is the sequence, right? like asking the right people at the right time for the right thing cuz if you don’t if you ask the wrong person even if it’s the right question like you’re going to get bad information which could lead you down this other path right and so it’s hard and I feel like that’s why people struggle with this because of the people that they’re surrounded with and it is like it all it’s like a Tony Robbins thing right like proximity is power and so it’s like getting around the right group of people who are on that same wavelength who are like have the same characteristics and attributes and values that you do and aligning yourself with those types of people is like makes all the difference, right? It’s like, have you heard of Dan Sullivan? You know who that is? Yeah. Who, not how. Yeah, dude. It’s the same stuff, dude. And it’s not rocket science, but it’s like sometimes we get we’re like our own worst enemies because we get in our way because like being like very type A driven like got to do these things like oh I don’t need to ask for help. I don’t need to how I’m supposed to call and ask this guy for money like you know all the things. It’s hard bro. It’s hard. So it’s cool that um you use your platform and like your network to be able to like go past go deeper than that like superficial level. like just be a person and help other people out. It’s dope. Yeah. And it’s been really cool like you were mentioning earlier, man. Your easy true north, your mission and your vision and the way that you show up in community is easy to get behind. Yeah. And I certainly I was I was meeting with some friends of mine actually Matt in DC who I respect. DC who you know he’s black belt. Um he’s my coach. He’s he’s an absolute beast. But I was meeting with them the other day and they were they were like I was giving them just pieces of what we’ve gone through and they’ve learned quite a bit of the story and they were like, “Dude, if you don’t if you don’t take what you’ve learned over the last 2 years and just dump it into some people.” Yeah. And I’m like, “Yo, that’s absolutely what I’m going to do.” That’s so sick. You know, so authentic entrepreneurs that really are human- centered like yourself make it easy, especially when you can sit down and say like your plan is like what is best for humans, right? How can we be a cut above what is average and out there and available already? Totally. Those are conversations I want to be a part of for sure, dude. Growth mindset. What is it? Eleanor Roosevelt. Like what was her quote? Like small minds talk about things. Something minds talk about people. Great minds talk about ideas. Great minds talk about I know that last part. Elanor Roosevelt there, dude. Gangster. Yeah. I got that thing in my office with not Elanor Roosevelt, but Theore Roosevelt. Yeah. The man in the arena. Yeah. And as an entrepreneur and a business owner and somebody in in recovery, there come these moments too where you’re the only one that’s going to believe in your thing, you know? And I experienced that over the last couple of years where I’m like calling these people and I’m like, I thinking I’m the only one that thinks this is going to work right now, right? You [laughter] know, it’s like and then you have to have that that little slice of insanity that I think we keep somewhere on the go. have to, you know, for sure because any of these guys, like when I was I was telling Matt in DC, I was telling Matt in DC the other day when I was um these are guys that I lease the properties off of that I’m working with. Um I was like, “Bro, when I got the first property off you, this thing was like if it was a stock, it was like it [laughter] wasn’t even didn’t even have a ripple in it, right?” It was just like straight. And he’s like, “Why didn’t you say anything?” I was like, “Oh, you would have never ran into me.” [laughter] Like what? He’s like, “What if it would have?” He’s like, “What if it would have failed?” said as an entrepreneur and as a reasonable human I was ready to have that conversation 100% we have the I did my best and wasn’t good enough I’m sorry that’s tough thing to do but you got to be able to do that I think sometimes in entrepreneurs is to be that one that’s going to believe in it yeah bro you got to be crazy and you have to have that unwavering belief and that’s what it takes to succeed really in any in any industry in any field as an entrepreneur like you’ve got to be able to push past that’s why like that’s why I resonate so much with the fitness stuff and all that and we talked about that too is like when you’re like deep out there right like you’re on the north rim and you’re like okay you have nowhere to go like and sure like an IT band whatever not bad like obviously like there’s stories of like horrific stories but it’s that concept in your mind is like are you going to be able to push through are you crazy enough to just like I like your whole one day at a time thing right one step at a time I really love the way I feel when I’m not [ __ ] injured yeah for sure that’s all I think about I’m like bro I just I feel great when this is exactly what the world. Same concept in business though too, dude. That’s dope. Yeah, you got to believe in yourself. And then you got to be a good enough salesman to be able to get the right people in the right place to help you get past that bridge. And I’m so stoked that you did that. Yeah. And hopefully you can sit with them and like have a coffee a handful of months later and be like, “You’re actually insane.” Yeah. You’re the crazy guy. You’re the crazy one. [laughter] Yeah. That’s sick. It’s so cool, man. So, what do we got going on with True North? I know we’re talking. We talked about I know we’re getting more into the commercial space going to grow up kind of inatient kind of the more intense levels of care there. What do we got going on? Yeah. So, you know, True North has had this weird kind of um trajectory over the last couple years, you know, as as you know, like I got started in like this sober living space and started with Elevate Recovery Homes and um that’s going great, but like really to really show up for people in the best way, it’s like you have to have uh higher touch points with these folks, you know? you have to have the full continuum of care. And so for us being self-funded and bootstrapped and all the things is like the next trajectory up from sober living was like all right we’re going to get an IOP open and really take that same model that we have from from Elevate which is like highly personalized like very fitness focused very outdoors like getting people really moving with their body and um understanding whether it’s weightlifting or hiking or running or it doesn’t matter like building community around act being active was like kind of our whole thing Yeah.
And so it’s really been a struggle over the last couple of years of like again surrounding yourself with the right people. Like I had a couple people that um you know initially were part of our our our company and they just weren’t good fits. We weren’t super aligned. And so you have to learn that I’m a stubborn guy and like you have to learn the hard way. You have to like learn through through doing. I do. Um, and so over the last couple of years, it’s really just been finding and building and cultivating and curating the right team of people around me. And then it’s like implementing the right systems and processes and procedures and like to support the business. Like obviously the clients come first. So, it’s like that’s what matters the most. But then also like actually trying to build a viable and sustainable business um that’s supporting these my employees lives, their livelihoods, their families and paying you know like the whole thing. Um was a challenge over the last couple years. So yeah, we started off with just IOP then we ended up getting licensed. We were actually licensed for adolescence as well initially. Yeah. So, my former business partner, she really has a heart for uh for adolescence and she has a heart also for um women who are victims of sex trafficking. Okay. And so, um we were licensed for that, but then, you know, you kind of where we were at in our trajectory is like, all right, I’ve got to really focus. Um we got to do something really well first and then like from there we can expand. Um so, started off with IO IOP, got to PHP. Um, so we’re licensed for both mental health and SUD um for for both PHP and IOP. We we right now primarily a lot of our clients are we have a high Medicaid population and I know we had chatted about that. Um, and so we’re really trying to kind of diversify our payer mix right now. Um, show up for those people who definitely need it in that Medicaid population. Um, a lot of job readiness stuff, workforce readiness, really like initial like soft skills and that kind of stuff. But we’re being kind of hindered with the policy makers and with Medicaid and stuff happening. And so from a viability and like a sustainability standpoint, like we have to move more up market, which is kind of been part of the plan altogether. Yeah. And now we’re really trying to get into um you know 3.1 3.5 3 uh 7 levels of care so we can have that full continuum model with similar to like what you guys are doing. really being able to show up for these people in the best way possible and make it seamless so that they can get the care that they need while they’re with us. Um, so that’s really the plan and really sticking with our same like very fitness focused modality. Um, we do a lot of like sematic stuff and uh it’s great dude and we’ve got an awesome team and we’re growing and we’re learning every day and uh our leadership team is has made so much improvement just even in this this year alone. It’s crazy. It’s so amazing. Um, but again, like you I look as an entrepreneur and as like a a go-getter, it’s like I still have so much work to do. It’s like if I’m doing Pikes Peak, right? It’s like I’m like at the top of like bar trail right here, right where the incline is and then I’m like, okay, I still have a long way to go just to get to this peak. And that’s not even the end goal, right? That’s why I love the name of your business, too. Like Peaks is dope. It’s cool, right? Um, it’s dope. But that’s our whole thing is like we’re really trying to bringing back to your point about surrounding yourself with the right people and like we’ve brought some amazing people on board who like you know have have built their careers on um incredible experience that they’re now bringing to our business and lighting super scaling and lighting lighting a fire under our ass and just making the rest of the team so much better so that we can show up better for the clients. Yeah. Yeah. It’s dope, dude. It’s really cool because I mean I [clears throat] we started out very similar you know extended models you know outpatient levels of care and you know we started to really look into you know what might it be for us to have like some really good synergized continuity of care right you know we would have to refer out to detox refer out to residential and you know 50% of the time they wouldn’t come back or it wouldn’t be a warm handoff or they wouldn’t listen first and solve later and they were in a cultural fit and so it was this just big disconnect and so it was pretty scary getting into those inpatient those more acute levels of care, but very very quickly we started to see from an outcome perspective that outcomes started to improve. The synergy was there, the handoff was there, and so I love that you’re going in that direction. I think if you can kind of, you know, control the whole funnel, it gives you an opportunity to give the best client care. Totally. You know, 100%. So, yeah, really replicating what like people like you guys are doing and that’s where we see the best results. you know, we have some good um referral partners that we work with that are like, you know, just like 3.5 specific and they’re great and they’re awesome and then they refer guys to our sober living and they know it’s worked out really well. But I think the businesses and the the organizations that do have that entire continuum like if somebody slips up like cool, we’ll get you back here. like we’re we got you. And being able to just have that to where to your point um it’s more sustainable for our organization and then it’s it’s better in the long term for these clients. There’s a higher likelihood for success for them if there isn’t all this disruption. Like that’s that’s the goal, right? But then it’s also like figuring out all the business aspects that go into it, the funding, the um the real estate, all the things, the people. So that but that’s the fun part and that’s why I love what I get to do is like it’s such a win-winwin because like I get to show up. Look, I don’t inter I don’t get so much interaction with the client. I get to do all the fun [  ] right? I get to do all the fun [  ] Like we took uh every year we take like 40 or 50 guys to Moab. Sweet. So sick. Uh we got Rocky Mountain National Park. So, I get to do all the fun things, but I’m like from a client standpoint, I don’t, you know, I’m not working with the clients like I used to when it was just sober living and I was like coaching them and doing all the things. Um, but now I get to you can’t cuz now I get to focus on like the business and like so I love it, right? And I always say this too and I I stole this from somebody. I forget who it was, but it was like I love going to work every day and then I love going home every day. And so like that’s a great life for me, dude. Like I I’m so blessed. I’m so grateful. And yeah, there’s hard [  ] happens every day, but like that’s part of the game. That’s part of it. And I love that cuz I’m growing and I’m learning. Some days are harder than others, but it’s good, dude. Dude, when you when you zoom out, I think this was something that maybe I missed sometimes over the last couple years or maybe the last few years prior the few years prior to the last year [clears throat] was like if you’re like really about this, which I know you are. Yeah. It’s right here, right? I read this quote the other day and I’ll butcher it, but it was like make sure and focus on the small things because one day you might look back and realize those were the big things. Yeah. You know, like and that’s what I’ve learned is like I am so blessed to call today, Wednesday, to be here with you to be able to walk you through a facility. I know. I used to put needles in my arms and crazy [  ] dude. Like, and [laughter] and people trust me, and next month I’ll have 18 years took a congrats. And and and for whatever reason, somewhere along the way in my professional journey, I lost sight of that. Yeah. And I just find myself now just reminding people of like what you’re doing Yeah. is rad. Yeah. Most people will never touch that quality or that quality of life, that passion and that purpose with a 100 foot pole. And sometimes in my career, I think like, well, when I get over there, it’s gonna be right. The way that I get over there and it’s gonna be is that I go all in on Yeah. You know, is there one thing that you could point to that and maybe it was a culmination of a bunch of different things, but like what kind of reggrounded you? Can you point to like one thing? Can you remember like one thing that you’re like, “Hey, [  ] face.” Like you’re looking in the mirror and you’re like you need to wake up. Like was there one of was there like an epiphany type moment or no? Was it just kind of every couple? But I would always say it was the it was the moment with what I told you about. Yeah. With Garrick. Yeah. In the car. So sick. So powerful. And him just holding up a mirror and he didn’t he didn’t say it. What I heard is like you’re my dad. Yeah. So sick. I know who my dad is. Right. And that was the mirror that was like, “Okay, ambiguity out, attention all in.” And it’s one of those things when when you have to go all in on the moment. There’s something real special about it because like you got to win the day and you experience a lot and you get a lot done. But we would go into each and every day and I told Joseph, I said, “We got to roll sixes.” So people be like, “What if you roll fives?” You know, we have to roll sixes. [laughter] Like you don’t it’s not there’s no fives in the thing, dude. Every day we have to win. Yeah. And as grueling as it is, as intense as it is, it really created this opportunity when I came out of the inferno and started to see the light that I’m just like, man, I just I I have so much gratitude. Yeah. You know, so sick. You’re always you’ve always been like since I’ve known you and I’m sure even before like first of all, 18 years. That’s so dope. Yeah, I know. I don’t know if when this was said, but when you’re 44, you’ll have been sober for half your life. Yeah, man. That’s so sick. Yeah. But you’ve always been like a very like um heartled person. Like I think that’s just the type of person you are. Yeah. Um and I think that obviously shows in your business and like getting you through this last thing. Like um it’s just sick, dude. I’m so stoked for you. I really enjoyed Thank you, man. I really enjoyed in this season people wanting to be closer to me. Yeah. Than in the past. Um it’s it’s been really cool because in the past because I was I was very big very big 12step guy. It was more about like I have something you want so follow me. And even when I got into business, people would come meet with me and it was very much like like I have the keys to your kingdom so I’m just going to talk at you. Yeah. And so I’d sit with people all the time just the same as I do now, but they’d kind of be like this. Uhhuh. All right, dude. Yeah, great meeting. Yeah, good stuff. That’s stuff like real. And now I sit with people and they’re just like, they just like, yeah, dude, we’re chilling. You got something I I’m sure could gain from and you and me and we’re relational. And so it’s been really cool lately, not just like professionally, but personally with like guests and stuff too of I’m like, “Yeah, doors open, man.” Like y and if I can really emulate to you cuz it’s true and I can be authentic that like right dude I’m grateful to be with you um I appreciate your time totally you know and people feel that like I don’t know what is about that experience I just want to be around that guy it’s authentic dude authentic and real [  ] like I got this great friend and I do all the masogi stuff with him his name’s Justin actually our we had a podcast a couple years back we probably did I don’t know 80 episodes or something super cool um but he is one of the most um just authentic human beings and the way he shows up for people is like so infectious. Uh and I’m so excited. He’s actually coming out next week. He lives in Alaska. He just like retired, sold his mortgage business, but we do all this masogi [  ] together and he’s like 55. He’s an older dude, but he’s like I try to capture like when I’m around him and that’s I I I’m bringing this up because I get the same vibe from you as well is like there’s there’s like this energy about you, about him, about certain people that like you want to be around when it is authentic and like you just cap and it’s like I want to take the the good things from that and like the pieces of that and be able to fill my cup up with that so that I can overflow and be that for other people. But yeah, no, dude. I love that. Um, and you guys have very similar like personality types and like he’s a gangster, he’s a G just like you. And that’s the type of people I want to be around because then again, if your cup is always overflowing, like there’s plenty to go around for everybody and you can show up for clients, you can show up for your family, you can show all the things, dude. And it’s sick. And you’re absolutely right. And it is that authentic thing. It’s like it’s not transactional. It’s like, yeah, there’s both there’s value in this. We’re both going to gain something from this, but it’s also like it’s real. Yeah, that’s real. Dope. It’s been so cool, man. Just walking with instead of like out in front. I’ve been talking about it a lot on the podcast lately. Um, and that’s my aim each day, man. It’s like I get up. I’m not perfect. You know, I was meeting with a a husband the other day. I was meeting my friend John. Yeah. I was telling you about the Vietnam vet. Yeah. I’m like, why is it why is it just trying to be better humans one day at a time like I’m like, why is it John that I treat the person that I love the most in this world the most poorly? Yeah. Why is it that husbands I think generally or wives or vice versa treat the ones they love the most poorly? Yeah. And my goal each and every day is like how do I love my wife better? Totally. [laughter] You know, but it’s these interesting and we sat down and he was an alcoholic and I was an alcoholic. But we’re not it’s not a we’re here, right? And so like I’m always interested in ways that like I can get better relationally. I can be a better human and I can be a better husband and a better father cuz that’s hard to do as well. For sure. You know, that takes just as much just like the whole business thing. Like it takes that’s another full-time job. Yeah. Right. Like and I experienced the same thing. Like it was my wife’s I feel so bad about this because my wife obviously I’ve got a two twoyear-old two year and four month and then today is actually my my second daughter’s four month. Four months. Two year and four month. So two two years apart. Two years apart. Exactly. And so the last four months have been rough especially for my wife because like the first baby was like she didn’t get a good latch so we bottle fed her. So we split the whole thing like did the whole thing but now this baby is latching great but so she’s always on the boob and so it’s draining for Kayla big time and like trying to show up for Kayla in a way just like as a husband and as a partner and as a friend and as all the things. Um, it was her birthday just earlier this month and she asked for two things. Um, and I was like, “Well, what do you really want?” She’s like, “I want a private dinner with a private chef to come to the house.” And I’m like, “Cool.” And then she’s like, “And I want a cookie cake.” But the thing is, we both are like gluten-free and dairyfree. But you’re going to get down. Yeah. So, I’m like, “Well, that second one isn’t going to happen.” And then the first one, too, it’s like I feel so bad. Um, and I’m making it up to her, but like I reached out to like four or five different companies and like I have some friends who have private chefs and stuff and it just ended up not working out. And I like went to her and I was like, “Hey, like nobody’s heard back from me. The people that I have heard back from, she doesn’t eat seafood either.” Okay. Like they only want to do seafood. And so I’m like, “Can we like table it?” And so like, but it made me feel [  ] horrible because it’s like it’s the person I love the most in this world. I love her the most. And so I’m like, man, what a [  ] scumbag I am. Like I need to really think about this and like look at how I can show up better and not just like giving stuff, but like that’s just one example. And so I’m working through that [  ] too. And so like obviously I’m like, you know, making it up to her and everything, but it’s like it’s those little things that really stick with me the most. It’s like I don’t People don’t care about what you do. They care about how you make them feel, right? And that’s another stolen quote from who knows, but it’s genius. And it’s like the people that matter the most to your point is like you need to show up for them the most. You know what I’ve been doing lately? What’s up? Speaking from like the authenticity lens. It’s like, dude, like I know I’m going to suck and it’s not like I’m going to suck so bad. I’m not I don’t And I don’t get down with like the like, oh, okay, you know me, I’m an alcoholic, so I have to make amends every time I suck. I don’t do that. I’m not down with that. Stay inauthentic, right? But like sometimes like like the other day I was in the in the bathroom. I’m like, “Hey, like I got that interaction like real real wrong. And I want you to know that I don’t feel good about it.” Yeah. And I also want you to know that I was just journaling 45 minutes ago. I’m like, “How can I [  ] love you better?” Yeah. It’s hard. Yeah. Been together a long time, but I just want you to know like you are the [  ] light of my life. And I messed this up and I want to get better. I want to talk about it. So, I’ve I don’t know if I’ve learned, but I’ve seen through just like being a little more authentic because then she’s like, “You don’t care.” And I’m like, “Well, no, I do care cuz I talked about on my podcast, [laughter] you know what I mean? You don’t want to show, you know what I mean?” So, like, but so I’ve been finding like the same thing cuz I will I will take the information. I’ll do the right thing in my community. I’ll be real authentic, but I’ll forget the person right in front of me, right? So, it’s been really helpful with Cass and I still I mess it up, man. But she knows. We’re not perfect, dude. We’re not perfect, but we are trying to get better. And that’s what’s been so helpful, too, is like having the right partner, and I talked with uh a bunch of my I talk with my friends about this all the time, but like having the right partner around you makes makes everything so much better. And so, I just want to again, yeah, I just want to show up the best way that I can for my daughters, for my wife, for my family, for my friends, for my colleagues, all the all of that. It’s interesting you say I I always leave her out in the conversation. Not because I don’t have a lot of gratitude, but talk about somebody who’s like riskaverse. Yeah. My wife, she’s doesn’t have an entrepreneurial bone in her body. She always worked for somebody until we opened our company. Yeah. There’s probably been three times over the last 12 years where I’m like, “It’s over. What do you want me to do?” And she’s like, “Send it.” And I’m like, “Send it, babe.” I’m like, “That means you’ll lose everything.” She’s like, “Send it.” Yes. Love that. Every time she’s been like, “Send it.” gangster, you know, and I’m like, “Baby, you know when we send and it doesn’t work.” Cuz could you imagine if she wasn’t like that and then like that’s your most like trusted advisor and she’s like, “Well, like it’s a wrap, bro. It’s over.” Cuz I look to her, right? Yeah. Cuz I’m always like, “She’s going to tell me exactly what I need to do.” Kayla’s the same, dude. Yeah. It’s gangster. It’s the best. That gives me chills. Yeah, dog. It’s so cool. Cuz I’m like I’ll go home sometimes with all of the chips on Cass’s decision, but she has no idea, right? I’m like, “Oh, [laughter] cool.” Yeah. Well, you just saved the world. I was like, what? She’s like, great stuff. That’s dope. So true. It’s nice to be able to have people like that. Yeah, it’s the greatest, you know, and so like, yeah, I know we beat ourselves up like I beat myself up sometimes about like little [  ] like that, but it is meaningful, right? We’re going through the [  ] and all and so I just want to show up for her. So, um, yeah. And then thinking about that even like down the line, too. And like your kids are a little bit older, but like going through these phases like where like weeks feel like I mean the weeks fly by, but then like my daughter, she’ll develop something in like a week and I’m just I got to convince myself like cuz I haven’t been through this before. I’m like, “Oh, this is only temporary. It’s going to last a week.” Like how do I show up for her the best way cuz she’s [  ] 2 years old. Like how do I not p unload my [  ] onto her? And so it’s just it’s fun, dude. It’s interesting. It’s like that. It’s the game of business, too. It’s like the game of life. It’s so sick, dude. We’re so [  ] blessed that we get to do this [  ] and like we get to be in I talk about this all the time. So, I just did uh Boulder 70.3 last week, but I did a relay with my boys. So, I did it with uh with Robbie and my buddy Matt. So, I just did the swim and then Robbie did the bike and uh Matt did the run. So, you swam 5K? Uh swam four. It’s only 4K. 1.2. Okay. 1.2. Not Iron Man. No, two. It’s 2K. Yeah, it’s half iron man. So 2k. Um yeah, so one point 1 1.2 miles, which by the way, dude, I haven’t swam since which by the way, my last swim was Iron Man California like 2 years ago. Haven’t even been in open water since then. Yeah, bro. Swimming’s so hard. It’s so hard. I don’t even swam over 800 meters in my life. Swimming is is the worst. Like I’ll sit on a bike all day. I’ll run. Whatever. It’s fine. Yeah, but we get done with the race and like, dude, it was so nice on Saturday. It was like 78° in Boulder and I look at my boy, I’m like, “Dude, we live in the coolest [  ] We’re so blessed. Like, we live in such a dope spot. Like, we get Dude, we’re just winning. We’re winning winning on all aspect.” No, I live in Parker, but the the race was up pretty dope, too. Parker’s great. I love it. I’m a BBS guy. Like, it’s great. But yeah, like the my whole point is like, dude, we’re winning like with family, with friends, with business, with the place we live, living in America, having like we’re afforded so much um so much. It’s amazing. And so for us not to take advantage of that and use that and and and leverage all of the gifts that we’ve been given to do good and be like servant leaders and like that’s the only way to compound that [  ] Yeah. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing, man. The really the opportunity I think we have as as as fathers and professionals and um the impact and some total impact that we get to be a part of in this world and the ripple effect and the wave that we get to ride and the communities we’re a part of. I think if we’re there for it, it’s like the time of your life. It really is, you know. Yeah. Um I wanted to share something with you. I shared it with I was having uh I haven’t shared it on the show in a while. I don’t think it’s probably been like 50 episodes because I just do like rewind and repeat. Um, but I was reading this book one time talking about father being a father, a mother, father, father, mother, parents. And I used to think because we grew up and like we didn’t it didn’t feel like we had a lot and it was like, you know, managing the checkbook. My dad was like, and um, so I used to think I used to see my friends, they would like go on vacations. I thought it was so cool. Sometimes they would invite me. And so when I first started making money as a young entrepreneur and a young father, I was like, “Dude, I’m ripping my nine-month-old and my two week old to the four seasons. I’m ripping them over here and I’m ripping them over here and I’m ripping them over here cuz that’s the that’s what I thought. I thought I thought being a father was like time under tension and big memories cuz I had such little like little big memories.” And um anyway, I’ve learned something quite different and and something that I I kind of like um I say all the time is meaningful moments that matter matter the most. So I was reading this book and I forget the book, but I’ll remember it or I’ve said it on a podcast before. Essentially, the book was writing letters to I think it was Oprah and they were saying my mom is the best why. They would write essays and they would say this is um my mom’s the best mom because of this. So they invited him on the show if you won. So they invite this 12 I want to say like 11 to 13year-old but really wellraveled man affluent family has all the things. They bring her on the show. They’re like you won. So they bring her out. Her mom’s in the back right. Oprah why did you why is your mom the best mom? And she goes well it’s easy. It’s Cheerios. Oprah’s like, “Well, you know, you flew all the way across the country. You want to talk about Cheerios here.” You know, whatever. She’s like, “Cheerios, man. It’s Cheerios.” So, here’s the deal. My mom, I was 5 years old. I was up going to the bathroom. I heard a little cling down in the kitchen. Went down in the kitchen. I was like, “Mom, what are you doing?” My mom’s my hero. I love my mom so much. She means so much to me. She’s such a great mom. She’s down there having Cheerios. She says, “Sometimes I get a little anxiety and I can’t sleep. I’ll come down have both Cheerios.” Girl says, “Mom, you know those Cheerios is my favorite.” I know, honey. You have to promise me that every time you have bullet Cheerios in the middle of the night, you wake me up with bullet Cheerios, bro. Like so sick. They had done everything. All this stuff like what all it was was like this little time where and it probably happened the way she explained it like five or 10 more times between like five and 15 or whatever she was. And it’s like that’s all it is. And so as much as I’ll tell myself sometimes as an entrepreneur like you’re not doing enough as a father because you can be pulled in so many different directions. I just go back to that. I’m like how can I eat Cheerios today? Right. I love it. Right. How can I put my phone down not for an hour but long enough to have a bowl of Cheerios figuratively speaking. Right. I love that. Dude, that’s so sick. I got goosebumps. Isn’t that wild? I was telling a story yesterday. I started crying. And I’m like, dude, it’s just like it’s impactful cuz I can tell with my kids and you’ll be able I’m sure you came with your 2-year-old. But when dad is fully there Oh, yeah. And they’re with dad, right? Bro, they are We were just in Salida last week. We’re doing the alumni weekend. Yeah. I brought life jackets. We went and had sandwiches by the water in the Arkansas River right there. I said, “Fellas, you guys just want to jump in?” I know people are surfing it and they have wet suits on, but we don’t need wet suits or helmets or any [laughter] of that stuff. You want to just jump in this thing and start getting it? They’re like, “Dad, if you go, we go.” I’m like, “Bro, I’m going to jump out in this thing. [laughter] Follow me.” Like, and I’m like, “Bro, don’t do like last time cuz the last time you didn’t follow me. You got to [laughter] go.” So, I like jump out and you can see him in the video. They’re like, “Whatever, Dad does.” So sick. And we were floating this thing. Floating this thing. And it was like so simple. So simple. They’re like, “Dad, this is like that’s what Grace says.” Right. It’s so dope. I love that, dude. That’s so sick. I love that. And you’re so right. And I noticed that, too. I try to do and that that is one thing that I’ve gotten a lot better at um since having kids like cuz I haven’t been on social since my my first daughter’s been born. That’s spiritual and for me and the whole thing was is because like you know I got that addict mentality bro and it’s like I have a hard time I have a hard time with the dopamine [  ] right so like if I have it there like even if I can I can compartmentalize it and like be there but like for me it’s just I’m kind of an all or nothing kind of guy and so the times that I’m with my daughter and I love now that we just moved her out of her crib like two months ago and so she has a bed now and so and I put her to sleep every single night And so like the time that I get to put her to sleep and like lay in bed with her, dude, it’s so precious. It’s so beautiful and it’s amazing. And like I hope that I I will create more experiences like that. Like just being just being there authentic, present bullet cheerio. I’m going to steal that, dude. It’s [  ] sick. Let me let me know what that book is, dude, cuz Yeah, I will. I just have to think about it real hard. I’ll look it up on like like Claude or something, dude. I’ll look it up. It’s in my library. I’ve read it in the last few years. And I was like, “No, I love that sick. I got this wrong.” But I’m always looking for like good books like that that are like meaningful. And then those are good things to like share with other people, too, cuz you can like help other pe you can teach lessons without it being your lesson. Yeah. That I think sometimes I’m like, “Oh, this person I think this would be cool for this person to hear this at this time.” So, and I don’t even think I’ve even said on the show like if I have my Apple Watch on, I’ll set a timer for 20 minutes. Like set the timer. Like I’m going to lock in for this 20 so I know it’s 20. It’s really impactful. Totally. [laughter] Yeah, dude. That’s sick. So, just trying to do that and and and I do this little like five minute journal that’s like super easy, but it’s just all about gratitude. You do it every day. You do it every morning. Yeah. And then you do this the few questions in the morning and a couple at nightick when you retire. So, um but it’s been a season for the reason. And I’m grateful to have gone through some of the trials and tribulations. Most certainly. It’s it’s taught me a tremendous amount, but most certainly more than anything, and I’ve said it before, it’s taught me what really matters, man. And it’s brought my close relationships closer. Uh it’s helped me to realize that the things that I wanted or the mountains that I wanted to chase, the most important things in my life were there all along. And whether I fell off the cliff or not, they were going to hold on to me. Y and they were going to be there. Totally. And so I’ve been able to anchor back into that and we’ve been able to have some success in this year. Love it. It’s it’s been cool to talk about it a little bit, expose people to the the realness of like life and and mental health and trials and tribulations and things get dark and hard sometimes, but if you get great people around you, I think you got a really cool opportunity of getting through it and learning a lot. Totally. Yeah, man. I mean, I know you mentioned the word faith earlier and like for me that’s the first thing that just like was ringing my bell when you’re saying this, right? And like whatever for whatever it is for people, but for us, you know, I was raised like cradle Catholic and went to Catholic school. Then there was a you know ele late elementary and middle school was uh not religious at all. I didn’t grow up in like a religious household but like we were my mom was kind of more religious, my dad not. And then I went to a Catholic high school where which really isn’t like religious at all. It’s just where they play sports. Yeah. It’s for sports. [laughter] Um I happen to be an athlete. Yeah, dude. Um, and then you know kind of living life and going to college and experiencing atheism and Buddhism and all the different ideologies and all the things. And then um now recently especially like in parenthood just trying to um seek the truth and like not that my religion or my beliefs like and I’m a Christian now. I’m a saved Christian and like but not that’s not for everybody, right? But for us, it’s like it’s finding that solace, right? And it’s finding that sanctuary and it’s finding that that truth for what whatever that is for you. Um has been so transformational and something to lean on and being like such a stronghold especially in the last like year. Um and being able to walk that path again with your partner and with it’s so funny like going back to the parenting thing too. It’s like we’re raising Birdie in this and we’re converting to Catholicism which is weird and it’s like weird. It’s a weird thing. Like Catholicism is a weird thing for a lot of people, but like for us, it’s like that’s what And so like every time we sit down for dinner now, Birdie, our daughter Birdie’s like, “Uh, all right, we need to pray.” So she’ll go, “The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, you’re Jesus.” And so it’s so funny. But it’s it’s cool to be able to share that again, too, unauthentically, and know that like I don’t have all the answers. I don’t I don’t know what the [  ] I’m doing 99% of the time, but I know if I can like put my trust and my faith in something that’s outside of me that’s bigger than me, um that ultimately represents light and love and like me trying to emulate that, like it’s all good, dude. It’s all good. Yeah, it’s a beautiful way to put it, too, man. Um it provides so much strength and foundation and to have experienced the idea or the thought of like God’s got my back and and knowing that like at a really ground level or you know maybe the universe but just feeling that right that’s uh it’s powerful. It’s impenetrable sometimes. It’s impenetrable. That’s a great word for it. Yeah, dude. And and it’s in those times and it’s a lot of people too like I don’t I would imagine a lot of entrepreneurs have faith. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean whatever. Yeah, for sure. whether this God, universe, Jesus, Buddha, all it doesn’t matter. Like, but um yeah, for me that’s been so impactful and I found such peace, right? Cuz like there’s so much chaos in our lives and like being able to like find those times of peace like when you’re putting down your phone and you’re setting your watch for 20 minutes and like those are the truest times. Um and it’s it’s super cool. Yeah. I’ve been so I’m part of this uh Christian leadership group. It’s called C12. Uh-huh. So dope, dude. And talking about like connecting with the right type of people who are like leading from from their heart and like leading and have driving businesses from like a place of and it’s very Christianbased, but it’s, you know, it’s bringing it’s kingdom impact. It’s like how can we be service led like how can we be shepherds and like how can we um just show up for people in the best way. It’s been so so so cool and peaceful. International, right? It is. Yeah. Yeah, dude. It’s dope. It’s so cool. I think they got a pretty good following down here in the Springs. They do. Down in the Springs. There’s a guy um TB part of that. What’s his name? Timbo. I don’t know. He’s part of He’s like in that kind of sphere. Yeah. I don’t know if he’s like a C12 member. But it’s great. You meet some really incredible people. I mean, that’s how we actually ended up reconnecting. So, uh David, my forum leader, he’s an amaz That’s who I was on the phone with right when I pulled up. He’s the [  ] man, dude. He’s so cool. And like again, you try to take these pieces from other people in your life and like take a piece from this guy, take a piece from this guy and implement those things so like I can show up the best way possible. But you know, he’s a connector like us too. So he connected me with Shane Phillips who connected me with Matthew which ultimately led back to us reconnecting. And so it’s super cool because like it’s a small world, bro. It’s a small world. Um and just yeah again like surrounding yourself with the right people who I wanted to ask you what who listens to this podcast most is it clients is it industry folks is it random people like do you know I’d say a huge mix is it yeah a lot of alumni population alumni a lot of alumni population goes out on YouTube too so it’s got a really good mix on the YouTube platform um professionals otherwise it’s on our website it’s on YouTube it’s on Instagram Facebook Apple music. Sick. So, it’s a good mix of like business leaders, clients, alumni, all the all the people. Yeah. And that’s what’s cool. Like that’s the one thing that I noticed when we were doing our podcast. It was it was called thriving in recovery and it was like a lot of very like just recovery based stuff, but what I like about this setting is it’s like and we talked about this in your office too and like even the AA thing like the recovery thing is like one deal like it’s life, right? And it’s light. It’s light, right? Hey, and you get to talk about all these different avenues. So, I was just curious about that. I love I love being able to I mean, I can if I need to, but I love not being able to live out of my story. Yeah, dude. 100%. That’s what I found. That’s why we kind of shut it down. Yeah. You know, there’s a lot of like very repetitive things and I kind of get stuck and there’s a huge part of my recovery where I got stuck in that where I’d be like, “Hey, my name’s Addict and and it’s it’s got a friend named Chris.” You know, like he’s just like boom. And then I’d be like, “Well, have you ever done?” [laughter] And then you’re like, “Whoa.” And then all of a sudden you’re blown back and then you’re like, “How’s this guy even here?” Like standing upright. You’re like, “Right, yeah, give him your money.” You know, whatever. [laughter] But yeah, it’s been really nice to step out of that and to step into because even though I got sober at 22, man, I was a kid. So I’ I’ve lived, you know, I’m 40 now. So lived 18 years and a lot of maturation and recovery. So, I can talk more about I have so many more stories of trials and tribulations and sobriety that are so much more a part of me than that was so much more robust and yeah, that’s sick. It’s good stuff, man. Dude, I’m so stoked you came up today. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man. We’ll have to bring you on again. I’m coming up in 2 weeks. Going to check out True North. Going to bring Joseph up, meet the business partners. Excited, dude. Yeah. Let’s lock arms, man. See if we can’t uh have some fun. I appreciate you, brother. Appreciate you, too, man. Thank you so much. Love you. Yeah, dude. Thanks for coming down. Hey everybody, thanks for rocking with us. You know what time it is. Our mission is [music] to save lives, disrupt the industry through quality of care, and more than anything, show up authentically one day at a time. [music] Peace. Later, let’s go, baby.
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In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris welcomes back Mark Kelbel, founder of Freedom Golf, to explore how mentorship, community, and purpose can transform lives both on and off the course. Mark shares how Freedom Golf has grown into far more than a nonprofit—it has become a place where young people, especially those navigating the foster care system, find guidance, belonging, and hope. Together, Chris and Mark discuss the importance of positive role models, the foundation that 12-step principles provide, and why recovery flourishes when people discover a purpose greater than themselves. The conversation dives into the grit that comes from persistence, the impact of surrounding yourself with the right people, the role families play throughout recovery, and why healthy boundaries are essential for lasting growth. Whether you’re in recovery, supporting someone you love, mentoring the next generation, or simply looking for ways to make a difference in your community, this episode is a powerful reminder that meaningful change rarely happens alone.

Anything we can do to keep them from underneath the vi on I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us. It’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary that we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. You may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, enthusiastic and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. Joined today by a dear friend, colleague, someone that was on episode 138 and we talked about some fearless golf. And when you’re talking about fearless golf, you can’t talk about fearless golf without introducing Mark Clayball. Mark Clayball, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, thank you very much, Chris. It’s an honor to be back. We’re doing a lot of exciting stuff with Fearless Golf. It’s, you know, the the need never ends. Yeah. And so, off we go. I love that you’re doing that. I don’t know if Coupe told you, and I know I haven’t certainly, but we’re getting into the adolescent space. Yeah. So, well, we could definitely work together even more cuz that’s where we’re at. a aside from we do help vets and we’re you know one of the things that um we are focusing on is homelessness in the veteran population but where we started where we continue to grow is kids that age out of foster care and just trying to keep them out of homelessness and I don’t know whether you know or not Chris but the recovery rate for a kid that ends up at the mission that is not in an intensive program is 4% and that’s such a low number that we are doing everything in our power to partner with the place, the tiny home villages, uh, partnerships like that that keep these kids from going to the shelter. Yeah. And so that’s where we’re at. That’s really, really cool. And I appreciate you updating me on that. I was actually meeting with a guy the other day that I was went through the foster care system and he wants to create a nonprofit along those lines just to be some connective tissue cuz correct me if I’m wrong but when when the foster ends these these they just drop off the face of the earth. Yes. They have no resources. It astounds me that there isn’t more of a ramp up to when these kids actually get out of foster care. Fostering Hope is another good organization in town. Love to meet your friend. see if we can’t collaborate and um partner on whatever we can do to help the kids. But it’s a it’s an ongoing issue with, you know, the anxiety and the depression and the uh certainly the drug issue, certainly addiction, it all plays into it. And um you know, the chicken or the egg, what came first? That’s a good question. Mhm. Um but we’re we’re we’re doing whatever we can to be a resource for young people to give them a path out of where they’re at. And so and I have a soft spot for those kids, Chris, as you’ll recall, cuz they don’t have anybody to advocate for them. They don’t have a coach to say, “Hey, you’re close. Hang in there. You’re on the right track. Keep doing what you’re doing.” or hey don’t you know you you don’t you don’t have any business being within 500 miles of that kid or be careful about you know certain decision-m things that you do or be able to challenge them appropriately with employment or a a uh a worthy goal a diploma uh a certification even even everyday life stuff like a a physical fitness um regimen things like that where they could be proud of themselves something to build on yeah some meal health victories. Yeah. Amen. Some confidence, you know, and I I love what you’re talking about here. I was meeting with a clinical director a few weeks back. There’s two sides to this coin really because when we talk about like, you know, if I’m sending my brother to treatment, that’s that’s a path. If you’re sending a family member to treatment, that’s that’s probably the same path. the people we’re talking about helping, we’re talking about healing and and working on the depression and and working on the mental health issues. Those resources are abysmal in comparison, I would say. So, and I I think too that what I found is when these kids get around each other, they they kind of celebrate those ailments. In other words, if bipolar comes up, kid will want bipolar even though he may not actually or she may not have kids. Yes. Yeah, they want to have that excuse, some kind of that that tag. And so part of my thing is to get them on their individual journey and to have them think independently even above and beyond of what their program says. I want them to start forming in their own mind what they’re capable of. And I’m, you know, you got to nibble away at this. You can’t, the old saying goes, you can’t take it in one bite. But it’s a it’s important that they’re on a path. And I tell them it only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re moving forward in any way, God bless you. That’s a good thing. Mhm. How does it start? Like is it is it a is it kind Does it kind of go chronologically? How do you engage with these young individuals? I know they reach you through website and things of that nature, but we do it all through our community partners. And some we end up with um individuals. We’ll get a school counselor that calls us. We’ll get a church, you know, maybe a pastor, youth pastor, somebody that calls us that says, “Hey, we have a candidate for your program. We want to work.” And then the the partnerships are important because um I don’t know whether you have ever heard of Cliff Hunter, but Cliff has a has a nonprofit called Diaonia Project. He teaches kids the trades. Okay? And so we have a lot of his kids. He has a lot of ours, but we try to partner with getting that skill set in bred in them. We work closely with Shelley Jensen at the tiny home village to get them temporary housing. Peggy Bird at the place where there’s they have they need a safe space for a certain amount of time until they gain enough confidence to go out into the world. But that time is limited and also it’s it’s necessary that they use it wisely. And again, anything we can do to keep them from underneath the vioc I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us because what we find is is small steps, but the more a kid functions and goes home and wakes up sober again and then, you know, that builds on it and then they’re able to take on a little bit more, whether that be getting a diploma, whether that be maintaining a job, whether that be um I want to rekindle a relationship with my biological parents or something. And I I’m big on that. We help provide those things. And so, we’re just trying to add value. Golf is simply a reason to get together. And for whatever reason, it has proven to me through the years that there’s an allure to it. I can’t explain it. Kids that would never whiff a golf course. If they make a 12ft putt, if they get an eight iron on the face and it goes up in the air, it it makes the kids happy and they want to come back. And so we we don’t have any trouble with uh attendance. That’s for sure. Yeah. Do you guys work with community partners that also have housing for these individuals when they transition out of foster care? Yes. Okay. And that’s where the place in the tiny home village. It’s so important. They got to have a a place they can go to with that that’s not too chaotic. That’s where trying to keep them out of the mission. It’s no place for a young person there. Yep. No, not at all. Yeah. The reason I ask is we’ve I’ve started working with some friends of mine who’ve gotten into the behavioral health space specifically for sober living. They’ve been working with some nonprofits and some of the nonprofits they’ve been working with and they go buy the real estate and the nonprofit just leases it from them. But the nonprofits are getting funding per house for the rent through the federal government. So they’re getting these grants for their nonprofit. I think he told me today one of the guys in my jiu-jitsu gym, they’re getting five or $6,000 a month per property. So, he’s opening up these properties for this demographic that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Yes, it’s pretty cool stuff. It’s cool stuff and it’s a lifesaver in many regards because it they don’t have to worry about, okay, well, I don’t have money to pay rent. M um and so that but it it gives the nonprofits, it gives somebody like Shelley Jensen who does the tiny home villages enough incentive where she doesn’t have people breathing down her neck for for payments and costs and things like that where she can actually operate on the human level and try to help these kids. Yeah. That is really cool. I’m sure she’s working with it as well, is um I was meeting with another Medicaid provider out of um Arizona and they do sober living um through Medicaid and they were telling me that they get their their guests um acquainted with resources in the community that can help them pay rent. So now they’re they’re paying a little bit of their bill as well. You know, we’re talking about mental health victories, just little stuff like that. I remember, you know, I wasn’t quite when I got out of treatment, I was on Medicaid. I was on access through Arizona insurance and I was grateful for the time period that I had it and I remember little things for me um seemed monumental like you need to get a driver I got to get an ID card. Mhm. You know exactly you know or like I got to go to social security office and do what? Yes. You know I don’t how do I fill out a thing for food st like yes these are my and but I remember when I did them I remember staring at my first ID. It wasn’t even a license. I’m 22 years old. I should have a license but I had an ID in years. Yes. for good reason because they would have got me, you know. But um I remember looking at it and just like having so much pride. Yeah. Stupid [  ] like that, man. But those are accomplishments. I even talked, you know, a kid bragged to me one time, Chris, about how he actually ordered a pizza with his debit card and that was the biggest deal. He actually was able to rattle off the number and the expiration date and the security, you know, all of that jazz. But he he was that was an accomplishment for him. M and so yeah, look and as you know, you need momentum in life in those little baby steps that you keep going forward and okay, I feel better about how I can function on a day-to-day basis. I know how to do this, this, and this. And I like I tell the kids, only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re nudging forward, good. Mhm. You got it. But and and I I tell them too, look, you may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards, whether it be employment, whether it be a certificate or a class or um even like I said, a physical fitness regimen. Hold yourself to it. And I’m always saying, do what you say. Do what you say. Do what you say. If you tell somebody you’re going to do it, do it. You know, if you tell somebody you’re going to text them back or message them or call them, do it. You know, emails, little things like that. Don’t be don’t, you know, don’t let that stuff slide because that’s a habit that will come back to bite you. Mhm. So, they told me when I got to AA, they’re like, “Do what you say and say what you mean.” Yeah. I was like, “Huh?” He’s like, “Do you get what I’m saying?” I’m like, “Say it again.” Did you Did you like 12step? I was a huge advocate for 12 steps and I still am in a way. Um, I did it for six years militantly from the age of 22 to about 27 and a half, 28 years old, right about the time I opened Peaks. And I was um a member at Crazy Birds Group, Alcoholics Anonymous, Prescuit, Arizona, the Unitarian Church. Never missed a meeting. I was told in 2008 that the only way that people like me get to stay alive and operate in this world is to go to meetings. And I didn’t I didn’t really like that option, but they said the other option was jail. I didn’t like that option. So I was like and I had been in jail and I was facing a lot of prison time. And so I was like, you know what? I’m going to I’m going to do this 12step thing to prove it doesn’t work. And I had a sponsor and I had a therapist and I went full steam into it. And you know, in servitude of others created a lot of purpose for me. Purpose that I otherwise hadn’t felt probably my entire life. And so by the time I got a year sober, I’d never been so proud of the guy who was holding it up. I was 23 years old. You know, I meet a lot of 23 year olds with a year sober. I felt very proud and I figured I’d just keep doing it. I really liked that I felt important in in in the 12step way of life. I was of value to people and it was in this community and I was needed. And when I wasn’t there, people asked me where I was and they wanted me there. And I hadn’t felt in a long time um that I was like needed or wanted anywhere. In fact, I’d felt more discarded than anything else. And so for me, it was like, “Holy [  ] I’ll go there just smoke cigarettes with my friends. This is the best place on earth.” And then I got a coffee commitment and I met a lot of really good people, man. Like people that really cared about me and they showed me a lot of care when I otherwise just hadn’t experienced that in a long time, not even from my family. And I was hooked. And I swear to you, it’s the only way to get sober. You could do all that clinical [  ] but you got to come here and work these 12 steps. What I’ve learned throughout the process in the journey of recovery of almost 18 years in July is that I believe in a multitude of ways to the common goal, which is sustaining lifelong recovery. I I think we need to take the rigid gloves off a little bit because younger people have more access to information than I did 20 years ago and they’re just not doing the rigidity as well as people like me did. I’ll tell you back then I said I needed that [  ] I need a swift kick in the ass. A lot of kids aren’t saying that these days. They don’t understand the benefit of that, right? You know, I needed to be just somebody really needed to tell me that I respected to shut up. Mhm. But that was 20 years ago. I couldn’t just jump on YouTube and like do a Bernay Brown and you know like whatever you know a lot of access. So I think we need to ensure I did this talk um the Colorado Champions dinner and I was talking about the five fingers of the glove and we’re talking about the integration of substance use and mental health treatment which is very near and dear to my heart. Um and and I think it comes down to human connection and where humans are feeling connected and where they can connect. um bigger than anything a provided me a community that empowered me to do tremendous things. I wouldn’t have been able to do tremendous things without the community. Today I have a multitude of communities that empowered me to do tremendous things. You know, jiu-jitsu, I have a work family. Um I have an endurance family. I have a mountain hiking family. I have these people in my life. I have close friends that I meet with weekly. I feel very insulated and supported by my community. 12step way of life taught me the value of that. Um, but I believe it can come in any different form or facet. So, I asked you your son, it was like if you ever has he ever done jiu-jitsu because if you did it and he liked it just once, he could get addicted to it. And I’d be all I talked to a lot of people about them. I pretty sure it’s about getting healthfully addicted to new habits, you know? So, I have a I have a very broad approach to the way that I look at things now. And I think what’s tough about folks that are experiencing substance use issues is you don’t meet many people in this world who have more shame inside of them. Mhm. So when you when you come across a human who has that much shame inside of them, you know, whipping somebody with shame, right, just makes more shame. And that can be difficult to not do because substance abusers make you want to smack them sometimes, you know, even the ones we love, you know, myself included. So, it can be really, really tough and it could be a delicate dance. And I’ve been encouraging a lot of people lately and I’ve been trying to do it for myself is like how how might I love this individual into recovery, you know, instead of get this individual to do what I want them to do. Yeah. You know, and that’s that’s the that’s the fine line we all walk. And as as you well know, Chris, I have a personal attachment to the addiction crisis because of my son. And it’s a very difficult road. Um, and you want him to have some say so in his own recovery. On the other hand, um, you’re also you also have the benefit of history of what has not worked in the past and so you try to avoid that. Um, but I the community thing is an interesting point that you make because like in your case when you were in the 12step program, I’m sure that the last thing in the world you wanted to do is disappoint the people that had meant so much to you that you were close to in the in the 12step. You didn’t want to go to a meeting and say, “Guess what? Guess who relapsed.” At the end of the day, too, to your point, at some point, I wanted to make him proud. Yes. And that’s what and then that passion. My son has been a very difficult person to find a passion for. He’s talented. He’s smart as heck, but a passion for like a physical activity um of any case. And and so even even if I don’t I wouldn’t care if it was comic books, something that he cared enough about to not partake. Mhm. And thus far, sadly, that’s, you know, we haven’t been able to get that. Mhm. But it’s a um it’s a neverending quest for peace. I you, as you know, Chris, you wouldn’t trade the headsp space with somebody going through addiction for anything. They’re trying to fill a space. And you’re absolutely right about the shame, the guilt, the, you know, the the unworthiness of a life. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I’m trying to get to tonight, right? You know, I I can’t What are you talking about? A master’s degree or meeting the right girl or, you know, or um you know, walking the the PCT or something, you know, I mean, it’s just it’s not going to happen for me, you know, I don’t have it in me, right? And so the expectation for those people goes in and they’re truly trying to get to the night, just try to get through the day. Mhm. And then of course when they get around each other it’s even worse. Y and um I think that’s the power of those community based resources is cuz it’s been this like battle for me personally and professionally throughout my entire the last 20 years is like how do we how do we get to presence? Because when I’m here with you and I’m drawn in with you and like it’s just like if if and when you can draw your son into a deep conversation, you can tell this side of him turns off and this other side turns on. if only for a moment. But there’s no suffering in the present moment cuz I’m engaged and I’m present with you. And so I think these community based opportunities, whether it’s jiu-jitsu cuz now you’re fighting for your life and people are trying to choke you. And um if you’re if you’re what was so great about mountaineering for me is I would do really difficult routes and then there’s something scientific about it. My doc the docs always talk about it, but I don’t know what it is. But there’s something about when you’re doing something like that requires all of your focus and all of your attention. your brain doesn’t have the space to think about all the [  ] Yes. And so you’re dialed and you feel so alive. And that present moment is something that we tinker with up at the facility with with guests. We have people come in who are experiencing bipolar and they’ll be walking around maybe they’ll be experiencing a manic episode and I’ll take stride with them because you can just they’ll put in steps man over and over and they all have Fitbits and so they do steps and and I can find when I walk with these individuals sometimes and I can get them just for a moment like you like dogs. Yes. That you want to engage like I I have dogs. I have a burn. this thing and you can see the guests will engage out of their anxiety or whatever they’re going through or their episode for a moment of clarity and maybe it’s 10 seconds but it’s beautiful and there’s no suffering and they pop back out and they’re like, “Hey, you got me, man. I’m walking.” Yeah. But then it’s it really is about slowly but surely for me and I’m not doctor therapist or anything. I’m not like never been published or anything. But I I think it really is about building on those moments of clarity and presence to to go from 10 seconds to a minute. Impatient treatment, right? 24 hours of care. Now we’ve got a week, we’re really present. Hopefully by the time we leave inatient care, we’re really present because the noise is turned down and then we’re going into this outpatient thing. But it’s about introducing a multitude of recovery resources or resources in general that curate presence and community. And I think the more we can walk with people into and that’s the that’s the difficult thing I think sometimes is the gap um where the transition takes place. Uh it’s almost like if you could have a friend finder. Yeah. You know recovery friend finder like that walks with you. Like I don’t want to go into a gym. When I first went to a gym I’m scared to death. Yeah. People are nuts. You got people like me in there acting nutty like put putting their leg by their ear and like whatever, you know? It’s like and and so I get that, but I want to walk with people into a gym. Yeah. I want to introduce them to everybody cuz I feel really comfortable in there now. Yeah. You know, so there’s things like that and and and gaps in which we can inform resources in that I think can be really supportive just to helping people feel a little bit more part of cuz it’s one thing to be like, “Hey man, go catch a fish.” You know, my business partner always say he’s like, “But let me teach you how.” Yes. You know, walk with me. Watch me fish. Do you ever work with Colorado Motion here in town? Motion? No. It’s a therapy place up off Garden of the Gods that does teaches um they they take kids on hikes, mountaineering, things like that as part of their counseling. That’s cool. Yeah, it is cool. And that and so we’ve tried that. Mhm. You know, it did not stick. But there’s it’s that headsp space as you say, Chris, to get somebody out of where they’re at. And I even think a book can do it. If you’ve got the right author, the right the right subject matter for the individual, it can take them out of that. Like if you ask my son, explain your condition to me, he will rattle stuff off to you in the most impressive fashion. You’ll think, “Man, this guy’s like a PhD in in addiction.” Yeah. He knows it. Yeah. Um but yet in the moment, he has no no ability to like the impulsivity of bipolar. Of okay. Um I’ve just been in treatment for a year and a half. I’m doing great. I come out. A buddy I met in treatment asks me to come over. I go over to his house. He says, “Hey, I got all this stuff.” And you say, “Oh, sure.” So, you just throw away in a moment a year and a half’s worth of sobriety and without even thinking about it. Sure, I’ll do it. You know, no, it’s probably not a good idea. And so, it it’s that ability to say we don’t want to do it. And that that of course, Chris, as you and I’ve talked about his his coming home scares me because of the triggers and his familiarity with some bad actors. Mh. And so at least there but you know it’s as you and I talked earlier too Chris it’s a matter of getting them to engage in their own recovery and take pride in it and actually enjoy it y and um until you get there though it’s hard and so you know brain chemistry body chemistry they’re used to inducing highs with coke or some other drug and now that’s no longer available and so they got to live with this medium um sort of mood Yeah. And they’re not comfortable with that. So it’s it’s an ongoing effort. And so like what we do with Fearless Golf is we’re constantly trying to find a path for somebody that gives them a reason to get up. Whether it be music, whether it be um I want to study um games. I want to study um geography. I I have an interest in We got to find some interest. What’s your goal? If I could if if you could do anything. Well, it’d be go to see my mom. I haven’t seen her in a long time. Okay. Where does she live? She lives in Corpus Christie, Texas. Let’s get you a plane ticket. Let’s get a hold of your mom. Let’s see how that can work. And these kids are often times like most of the kids you’re working with have experienced probably tons of abuse, tons of trauma, multitudes, right? Yeah. Okay. They’re starting from a very fragile position. Um, two things though. It’s a double-edged sword. Yes. They’re they’re going through hell. However, I tell them, I’m like, “Look, if you can get a handle on this, if you can round the corner, you’re going to have it way over your peers because your peers have not had to deal with this tough stuff. And at some point in their life, they will. And their knees are going to buckle because they’ve never had to develop the grit, that selfbelief, that underlying I’ll be okay.” Yeah. Type stuff because they’ve never had to deal with it. You You’ve put, you know, you’ve had to go through hell. You know, like I’ve had kids that tell me they’ve lived in 50 foster homes. I’ve had kids that were that we took from underneath the vi over there. Yeah. We’ve had kids that have come out of um terribly abusive situations where, you know, we have we work with a young lady. She was here 14, stepmom beat the hell out of her, raped on the west side, ended up I mean it’s a miracle she’s alive. A miracle. M. And so all we do is try to cover their flanks long enough and encourage really we’re we’re we just try to love on them and try to let them know, hey, look, we’re here for you. We want to spend time with you. We value you. When your birthday comes, we’re going to get you a cake. We’re going to have people over. We’re going to celebrate you. We’re going to celebrate when you get a diploma. We’re going to celebrate when you get a job. We’re gonna just find reasons for you to be happy and proud of yourself and keep nudging them along. So, it’s little little constant checks. Yeah. You know, what can we do to help? Do do you need a outfit to go interview in? Let me take a look at your resume. Let’s let Do do you need transportation somewhere? Can we can we help facilitate that where it’s not constantly on a kid’s mind? See, they’re used to dealing with all of it all the time. And so, they do one of two things. either they give up or they take the bare minimum. And so we’re trying to get them to expect a little bit more out of life. Yeah. And as I say, Chris, golf’s just a vehicle. It’s just a reason to get together. It’s called fearless golf cuz I know golf. And so, you know, and I tell kids, look, I like it because it’s visible. You know, if I see you on a golf course, I can tell three fairways over whether you’re having a beer or not. I love that. You know, we don’t call it fearless pool. You know, where Yeah. where you’re in a dark room and maybe you got some privacy and doing some things you shouldn’t. So, it’s it’s and I want them to be in an environment where it makes them uncomfortable at first. Mhm. A lot of these kids never whiff a golf course. If you and I went down the street like on Tahhon downtown and you saw four of our kids coming down the same street, you might say, “Hey, let’s go across the street.” They’re rough, but those are my favorite kind. And I’m sure they’re yours, too. Cuz you can make the biggest influence. You have the biggest influence on them and they need you, but they are the most reluctant to accept the help. Yep. Yeah. And you bring up something I think really unique to at least something I’ve experienced. You know, we talked about the gym earlier, but even the golf course, man, the first time I went out in in a T- box to swing a golf club, first off, you’re at like a nice place. Yeah. There’s all this what I feel like is a lot of stigma, a lot of judgment, a lot of hoyy toy. And I can remember experiencing I was allowed to be there, my brother worked there, all this stuff. You’re helping individuals not only be able to see their value like in the world, but overcome a pretty serious stigmatism. Yes. And you’re walking with them like I’m talking about where you’re not like, “Hey, go golf. Let me know how it goes. You to tell them your ticket 242.” You’re like, “No, man. Hey, I got the tea time where we’re headed out. We’re doing the thing.” I’m with you with them start to finish. And if I’m not with them, we have one of our volunteers that are with them. We have an adult with every group. Um, but you’re absolutely right, Chris. Even to the point, even to the point where, hey, look, you order that bag of box of chicken fingers over there. Here’s some money. Go pay for it. Go say thank you. Go take a seat where you think you should. You know, cuz in the beginning, the kids are all like, “Hey, can you order me this?” I’m like, “No, you’re going to order it. You can do it.” Yeah. You know, I know it’s a little bit different environment. It’s just like a restaurant. Just go up there and tell the lady what you want. Say, “Okay.” And and so just again that little nudging and even even okay how do you listen for your tea time? You know how do you know what that what does the tea time mean? You know when what when what how what are your expectations in regards to dress? What are your expectations in regards to um when you show up preparation? Are you there right at the time? Are you there a little bit early? Are you there and how long should it take you to play? And then what what are your boundaries? Like I said the one thing I like about golfers boundaries. Mhm. Okay. You know that if you’re going this way, you don’t you don’t aim over here. That would be dangerous. It’s kind of what we’re doing for life. A lot of metaphors with it. Yeah, man. And then, you know, bigger than anything for me, too, is like we’ve gone back to the last time around the episode is like the sunshine, fresh air. You know, I always tell Cass because I’m I’ve played a lot of rounds. I wouldn’t say a lot of rounds of golf, but compared to someone who’s never played, I’ve played a lot of rounds of golf. And I always say I want to I want to get better as I get older and I want to live on a golf course. But when I sign up for the uh membership, it’ll probably be expensive. And what what I’ll have to get in there is that I can no shoes barefoot whole time. Even if it’s Pebble Beach barefoot feet cuz I think about it, man. Like there’s this music festival I go to and I think about it every year like 3 months leading up. I’m like put my feet in the earth. It’s so good. And so I’m wondering if there’s golf courses. Wouldn’t that be something? Like you’re all dressed up. You got your shirt tucked in. You got your hat, you know, but we’re going we’re going shoeless. You imagine on the putting green. Oh, that feels so nice. You know what? That’s a great idea. I know the importance of grounding. Hey, in all of that, but don’t put us on the course. Don’t put us on the city course, Mark. As it stands right now, Chris, I don’t think we’d have too many options. I do think it’s a worthy goal. I think it’s something like that, you know, even if it was a community space like look, if you come out, if you want to wear shoes, great. If you don’t want to wear shoes, fine. That’s cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. Type of thing. Most people that are watching like, I wouldn’t want that, but you know, this is a Chris Burns thing for sure. Well, we have our new indoor golf space that we do use a lot of stuff downtown. Okay. And um it’s called City Golf. It’s inside the train wreck restaurant. I got four big, beautiful bays and it’s really cool. And we do a lot of nonprofit stuff in there for the kids, but they’re not required. They can wear I I’ve never seen them go barefoot, but I’ve certainly seen them in socks. Nice. And so it’s it’s a I think you were getting that going the last time, didn’t you? I probably was. And we’re doing fine. We got a long way to go. We’ve come a long way. But it’s one of those things where the kids feel comfortable and um it’s a good place for the for the sponsor adults to meet too where they can the kids are having fun and we’re all having a discussion on the on the various individual needs of each participant so we can address them appropriately. Are most of your participants right at 18? Mhm. No. You can age out of foster care at 15. No way. Yeah. Now, that’s weird. That’s odd. But I’ve I’ve worked with some 15 year olds through that. You’re too young. Yeah. But it I guess it’s legal. And they got nowhere to go. They got nowhere to go other than these places. And so they can end up there. But you know, with the no guard rails, with nobody covering your flanks, um it’s easy to end up on the street and so many of them do. And then, you know, then the then the anger sets in. Mad at the world. I don’t know what you know they don’t know which way to turn. And so what we try to provide is a place to turn and just so hey I don’t and I don’t have all the answers Chris as you well know I don’t all but I I I pride myself on knowing a few people and hey look is if this is what you need let me make a phone call for you um and let me see what we can do. And very few of them honestly are ready for employment. Most of them are not. I’d say maybe 8% are. Yeah. Um, and we’ll help them get introductory positions someplace that they can get their feet wet in the employment world and learn how to show up on time, work with a diverse number of people. Um, you know, basically be willing to organize their day. And so all of that’s important and that’s one of the measurements that we use for success or failure. But if you asked me, if you said, “Mark, what’s the one intangible measurement?” You you use to um you to measure a kid’s success, I’d say their confidence level. If I see it nudging up like Mark, I’ll take that on. I’ll go get him. Yeah. Hey, we need somebody to go get Jim. He’s he’s he didn’t have a ride in this today. I’ll go get him. I’ll be right back. And they do. Yeah. You know, things like that where you can tell, okay, he’s just performing. He’s just fulfilling a responsibility. He’s not looking to get out of something. Yeah. You know what I I found myself I spoke at Peaks last night, told my story, a version of it. I found myself telling everybody in there and I I feel like it rings true for the population you work with as well, is that for me, like I worked in a gas station, then I worked in treatment. So, I’ve just been doing this recovery thing half my life. And when we talk about success like a per like person being successful spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, monetarily, like the most successful people I have ever connected with. And and the next demographic would be a huge gap is is people who turn pain into purpose. Deep deep pain. People wrote a month, they had no chance. And so I wonder if you if if you’ve had the experience in working with some of these younger kids that that see the light and when they do, it’s been my experience that they have a way of dealing with life’s pressure. Mhm. In a way that is unbeknownst to regular people. Yes. Yeah. Goes back to the point I made about they’ll their ability to develop grit, a perseverance is amazing and what they can handle as far as gutwrenching problems and disadvantages and really unfair burdens that have been placed upon them by family situations or Lord knows. And it is impressive. Now, I’m not normally with them long enough, Chris. These kids get out at 24, where I could see them really truly bloom. And I haven’t been doing it long enough. I’ve been doing this since 19. Um, but I fully expect that. And I do I have had the pleasure of meeting people like yourself that did round the corner and learn to deal with it that are there’s one guy that comes to my mind in particular, which is my son’s sort of sponsor in Austin. a high energy, dynamic dude, bright to the nth degree, and fearless because of what he’s been through. Nothing nothing phases him. He’s like, “Are you kidding me? I’ve I’ve put myself through hell. I can handle this.” Yeah. And um appropriate risk taker now, but he does not mess with his sobriety. He is attentive to that. And his his um motivation continues to be his son. M he cannot stand the thought of screwing up and having his son suffer the consequences for it. But he’s brilliant. He’s like you. High energy, a lot going on. Can’t you know, let me take it on. Let me take it on. You know, in um in confident in that and yes, you’re right that there is it’s it’s an interesting thing with with addicts. I think that, you know, like in my son’s case too, I don’t know exactly what his IQ is, but I’ve had people tell me it’s way up there. And so he deals with things too that I certainly don’t. My IQ isn’t way up there, but I think like for him, it it it almost lends you like a Van Go. I think in a weird way those that intelligence level lends itself to some some unsettledness, even some mental I I hate to say insanity, but a little bit of discomfort when it comes to where you’re at. Well, I mean, at the very least, like extreme amount of hypervigilance and and weary, good word, hyper vigilance, you know, just kind of like skepticism. What about OCD? Did you suffer from that? Oh, yeah, man. My business partner came in the other day. He’s like, I didn’t know you had OCD. I was like, I didn’t either. Did I tell you I had OCD? He’s like, “Yeah, I can totally see it now.” And I was like, “I got OCD?” Yeah. Yeah. So, I quit. I I picked up a nicotine vape about a year ago. Our business was doing terrible, man. We were hiring and firing and losing money, and it was bad stuff. And I picked up this nicotine vape, man. It was so helpful. I was so grateful for it. But I quit 60 days ago. Yeah. 60 days ago. Let’s go. But in that process of quitting, I saw some OCD come up, man. I’m was like in the office. I’m like, I’m in the break room. I’m like, who even cleans this place, I’m like, you I’m throwing [  ] away all over the place and I’m like, and people are coming in. They’re like, you know, cuz anybody sees me, I’m picking up cigarette butts all over. Can I help you? I’m like, no, can you help me? You would have already helped me cuz this place is a disaster, you know? And I’m just like here and over here. And I’m in my office, man. I’m like putting the pencils over here and I’m putting the pens over here. I’m like any control that I can have I want. So at best I got a little bit of OCD. That stuff shows up. You know, you we talk about healing. That’s the goal. But that’s generally a long-term situation. But when you squeeze on a coping mechanism, it’s like when you got another one, you squeeze on that one, right? Until that healing takes place. And then I’m like, yeah, I can just kind of be with you a little bit better, you know? And that’s a that’s a hard place to get to that long term. But, you know, and it’s and it’s been my experience, Chris, that ADHD, all these kids have it. Um, they all have a certain level of uh antsiness. Mhm. Of Okay, can you go turn the light off over there by uh Grace? Sure. And then by the time they get over there, they’ll get, you know, glass of water or something. They’ll come back. I’m like, hey, forgot to turn off the light. Was I supposed to turn off the light? What were we talking about? Yeah, exactly. They just turn off the light like, “Hey, can you go grab me a Snapple out of the fridge here? Let me go get a snapp.” By the time they’re over there, they’re, you know, they look in the fridge and they shut it and just walk away. It’s like, “Hello, I’m Yeah. So, it’s it’s exactly it.” And bless their hearts. I It’s hard for me to relate other than I hate to see him suffer. and through my own personal experience with my son and as you describe Chris the level of shame, the guilt, the unworthiness, the the I don’t deserve anything. Um I don’t know where it comes from. I really don’t because you know like in my case his twin sister is you know on her way to being a nurse anesthetist and a high achiever and all this stuff. She does she doesn’t have the IQ my son does. Mhm. But yet his proclivity to turn to unhealthy substances um was his downfall. Mhm. It’s interesting because he doesn’t need to work on the stuff that his sister does, right? He doesn’t need to work hard at that at all. And that’s going to come natural. Got to fill this mental health, this substance use gap. Yes. And and I know but it’s it’s high risk, too, as we talked about. It’s scary. But when that gets filled, I mean, that’s the firm foundation with what? Community. Yeah. Great people. I say like I’m a consequence or a like vision of a a a great human to my right and a great human to my left. Even when I bowl even to today, man, like I prefer to go with bumpers. I just I I got to stay in the lane and I got to have really great people around me that are willing to say, “Hey, man. You’re getting a little bit out of who I know you are and want to be.” And those are really great friends. Yeah. Sucks to hear sometimes. I’m like, I’m not. Yeah, you’re right. But I need those people around me. It’s like, I know who Chris Burns wants to be today. And and that’s not in alignment with that. I’m like, for sure. Chucks out. You know, and I think the more people we can have that I look up to, that I care about deeply, that can speak life into me, the better opportunity I have to stay in that bowling lane. Now, you got to be more aware of that when you see it in other people than a person like me that’s never had an addiction issue for your ability to say, “Hey, look, you’re getting a little bit farflung here. Careful. Watch. You know, you’re walking a little close to the edge.” Mhm. Yeah. It’s really easy to see often times in just lifestyle changes far before anybody ever picks up a substance. It’s like I really believe like good outpatient integration like next level is like when they leave the impatient spot like when they leave Austin they have an appointment. We don’t do this anymore cuz we don’t do extended care in the way that we used to but we used to like if you were leaving our program you had a meeting with a sponsor, a therapist, the meeting place you were going to go to. And in fact cuz we were so 12step driven back in the day like you weren’t going home first. the plan. You’re going to the noon meeting to meet the sponsor. He’s taking you out to lunch. You might go out to dinner with the 12step group later and then you go home. They’re like, “But I haven’t seen my family in 3 months.” It’s like, “Yeah, but they’re not as valuable as this is, right?” you know, and so I think if we can introduce people throughout their recovery path or their afterare plan, some of these meetings, I think they got some things in their calendar to look forward to and that are potentially life-saving, mending, and and can fill a gap that otherwise is there. And there’s a steep fall. Do you have any recommendations, Chris, on whether a person would do better in a narcotics anonymous, an alcohol anonymous, you know, that type of wherever they feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I went I went to a uh an AA meeting, one of my one of my first personal AA meetings. I used to go as a kid with my mom, but I was like cuz I I’m an addict and an alcoholic, but I like I to be like addicts a little more slick, you know? It’s a little cooler, especially when I was 22 when I was getting sober. Not like these old alcoholics. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, and so I was in a closed closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. You guys say you’re an alcoholic. And there’s like 10 people. I was in Sedona, Arizona. And I was like, “Oh, well, I’m an addict. I couldn’t wait to [  ] up the meeting, right?” And um this guy goes around cheering the meeting and he said he’s you’re not supposed to cross talk. You can’t share at people. I’m 20. I was 21. This is before I got sober. And he said, “You know what you are? German Shepherd dog. I was like, “What?” He said, “Man, you’ll always be a dog. Doesn’t matter what kind of dog you are.” And I was like, “Damn, man.” Called my mom. I was like, “These people try to kick me out of AA, you know?” It’s like, but but to suffice it to say, what they were saying was it’s like, “It doesn’t matter, dude. Doesn’t matter.” I went to AA because the AA in Prescuit, Arizona was a lot better than the NA. The community, a lot of young people. Um, Colorado Springs, I’m not sure. I think AA has grown certainly in the last 12 years since we’ve been here. We got a lot of alumni in community. So is the dharma stuff. And so um I don’t think anything’s one better or another. I just think wherever there’s better recovery community, you hit that. Last I heard the AA here was a little bit better than the NA. How much say so do you think loved ones should have in a person’s recovery? In other words, locationwise, um, lengthwise, um, you know, how the the the the structure of a program. I mean, um, it’s it’s it’s I I think it’s it’s it’s similar to if you want to get an apartment with somebody in in early recovery. We we we have to have a plan. Mhm. We have a backup plan. We have to have uh an intermediary plan. The plan. Yeah. we need to insulate it with some of these, hey, like I want to support your recovery as well and like if this doesn’t work out in this way and it’s not successful, you know, can we agree to something a little bit different, a little bit more structured, a little bit more of this, maybe some of this? Absolutely. You know, getting some buy in. Hey, like I want to walk with you because I felt it necessary to share with you before and I just thought about it since you brought this up and it’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary. That we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. The past is weighted and can really influence this moment in a way that sometimes is fair and sometimes is unfair, but it’s certainly not present. So, we need to develop a plan in the present moment. I want to give you enough grace to meet you in the moment. You’re 23 years old in so many days and so many seconds right now. That matters to me. And being authentic with that, I think is is really really valuable. And it scares me. And and as your dad, I want you to know that like I’m not upset. I’m not pissed off. Even though sometimes I move to anger, I don’t know what to do. I’m scared. And man, I got nine and 10 year olds at home. I do this for a living and I feel like I have a lot of resources. That scares the [  ] out of me, man. It scares the [  ] out of me. So, I I can empathize with what what you’re walking through. Well, it does me, too. And see, my thing is, Chris is I’ve got other people in the family that I’m trying to protect, too. Mhm. And so his presence nearby is a ambient source of stress that is over the c over the long haul the cumulative is no good for anybody’s health. Yeah, because you’re constantly, oh god, now what? You know, you look at the phone, the time, where, the location, the um just the constant on your mind type stuff. And it’s always worry. It’s never, oh, I’m sure, right? You know, everything’s good. And so that’s been one of my things with um his recovery is look, John, I got to I have to think of other people here. I got to think your mother. I got to think your sisters. I’ve got my own I’ve got responsibility. Somebody’s got to pay for this stuff. Yeah. You know, and so I cannot have the distraction. In other words, I got to go off to work so I can have the financial resources to help you get better. And as you know, it’s not cheap. Um and so you’re doing the very best you can, although we’ve had a lot of people trying to do as much as they can. And I have absolutely no complaints with their buy in and their help in in any way. However, the reality is it takes time and it does take resources and as you said over the long haul. I mean you and I the 30-day rehabs for another day. Y but you know this is a longterm process. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe even looking into some, you know, Colorado is the place, then, you know, there’s some extended care resources as well for a little bit longer term. You know, that could be supportive. Cuz really what you want to do as a family is enlist the team and let the team do their thing. Yeah. Build it for them. Build it with them. Family really is like you’re at the club level at the Pepsi Center. Like he can hear you if you’re shooting a free throw. Yeah. Yeah. But otherwise, like he needs to hear the people courtside and the people courtside can’t be family. Uh and that’s the problem right now is you’re trying to you’re trying to do the family and then you’re doing the court side. Yeah. You know, and it’s difficult not to. Yeah. You know, but we want to enlist a team that sits courtside and then eventually who joins the coaches on the court is is is other team members. Yeah. And that’s my community. And I need to hear them yelling at me and I need to hear dad just clapping. So that’s the that that’s the delicate dance and that’s the process. It’s, you know, and it’s funny you bring that up, Chris, cuz I had this guy that I told you reminds me of you, who’s a very talented guy who’s had his own addiction issues, but who’s been clean and sober for a number of years, but he says, I’ll be the bad guy. Mhm. But see, in my as a parent, you’re thinking, look, I’m his dad. Mhm. I’ll handle it. Yep. Um, and you hate to hand that over, but I get his point. And I see it more and more now knowing him the way I do. Mhm. He’d be a hard ass. He’d be like, “No, here’s what you’re going to do. You’re not going to get that car back until you’ve proven to us that you are bought into the process of whatever. Your brain, your body is still adjusting your your equilibrium, your your normal level, you know, that type of thing.” We go through it a lot. We used to do like extended care for affluent young people, like really affluent young people. And families would come through and say, “How do I do it?” You know, “How do we manage this?” And like, “Hey, man. That’s your money. That’s not his. and I’m here to support your recovery, which is really dope. Like, you need the sober living. If and when your team tells me it’s time for the car, like, okay, here’s the car, you know, but I I have to I trust in the professionals. You trust in the professionals. We have a team that does this. Dad’s got to get back to being dad. Yeah. What do you think of a sober coach? I think it’d be great. Absolutely. I know some great ones in town, too. Good. And not only just in town, but in the Colorado area as well. I hear they’re very important. Yeah, he has one now. They’re not cheap either. No. Um, they’re not. But but if you can get him, you know, you start putting these people around him, too, and you’re like, you trust that guy? Yeah, he’s great. I do trust him. Cool. You know, then I trust him. Yeah. And you know, what does Daryl say? I I’m going to start removing dad from all this [  ] What does Daryl say? Sober coach. What is it? Is it What’s his feedback? I’m here to support you recovery. Where’s Daryl at? You know, take the pressure off of dad. Yeah, we got Thanksgiving dinner coming up. What do you think? What do you think about uh frequency of communication with with your with your attic love? I think it needs to be boundaries. Can’t be running Blitz Creek on the phone. You know, it’s not healthy for anybody, you know, setting a and what I mean by that is why don’t we set some meaningful time that matters aside? I say meaningful moments that matter matter the most. It’s kind of my thing. It just goes back into the presence that I think is valuable. But hey, son, like instead of this like knee-jerk, I need this. I need this. Yeah. Could we have a call once a week? Yeah. On a FaceTime for 20 minutes where you have a cup of coffee and I have a cup of coffee and we connect. Mhm. That’d be valuable to me. Yeah. And then you can bring your list to our meeting to our coffee where I really, you know, the goal for me is to connect with my son. Like I’m going to create it’s like date night with the wife, right? Or like, you know, like I need to create some time. I need to be intentional about that. That needs to be felt. Yeah. you know, so that’s what I would recommend there, too. And that’s what I I you know, getting with these kids, too, Chris, that we work with with Fearless Golf, you know, they’re always like, you know, I even have to draw some boundaries with them. Yeah. Because they they have had so little attention in their life that they’re dying for recognition and and they’ll go to great lengths to get it. Y and uh it’s not necessarily unhealthy at all. It’s just a matter of I need this void filled and you’re helping me do that. But yet, hey, look, I can’t have you calling me five times before we get together for golf because you know when we’re getting together for golf, I know why you’re calling. Yeah, but if you’re going to pick up the phone, I’m going to call you 15 times, Mark. Yeah, exactly. You know, that’s it blows Cass’s mind. The phone will be sitting there ringing. She’s like, “You answer?” I’m like, “Absolutely not.” Why? Because I got something going on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s I don’t care who it is. Well, it’s a family. I Sunday, I’ll get a I’ll get a notification because I get my my card cuz I’ll tour a family before they go. It would disrespect. So, on a weekend, you need to call me. It’s emergency. Absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. Not because I don’t think your issue is emergent. It’s because I know you have the contact information of the people that can help you with your emerging issue. I’m not going to uh disconnect my team from an opportunity to be of service to you and do their job extraordinarily well. And frankly, it’s disrespectful to text me on a weekend and say it’s emergency when you have my team at your disposal. I have a I’m a father. Yes. I have kids. Yes. It’s things hard. Yeah. So I And I’ve only started doing that in the last 5 years, but I’m not, dude. I remember this one time in my leadership meeting. I was like, I’m not answering my phone after five. And I thought they were gonna all like boo me. And they all got up and clapped. Yeah. I was like, dude, I’m a tyrannical source rex out here, you know? And so boundaries I think are are very very important are very important. Well, you’ve educated me once again, Chris. I think it’s so valuable. Yeah. To to hear that perspective because I think people need it more than they know they need it. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise it’s um you know, you’re chasing your tail. It’s not clear, right? Bnee Brown, back to her before we get out of here. It’s like clear is kind. Might hurt, but I really want to be clear with you. It’s It’s like if I’m supervising an employee. Yeah. And they’re not doing the job well. I don’t want to come in and be like, “You’re fired.” And they’re like, “Oh my god.” Yeah. I want them to come in on that day of supervision and and just hand me the keys. Chris, you’ve been extraordinarily clear with me. This just isn’t this position is not for me. You’ve been a great You’ve been real authentic. It’s been real clear. I just can’t hit the marks. Mhm. That gives me chills, man. That’s like a great That’s what I want to do. Amen. I I don’t want to because I want to have those tough conversations when they need to be had and I want to be clear with like what’s valuable to me, what’s appropriate, what’s not. Otherwise, I’m just a a doormat and it’s very difficult. Speaking of that, there’s a great book I read Patrick Bet David. Have you heard of him? He’s this business guru. Crucial conversations is the name of the book. Okay. And it’s a hell of a sort of a guide on the nec necessity of having tough but incredibly important conversations. Mhm. Anyway, and tough too. Tough and gracious. Yes. Yeah. But like very clear. Yeah. You know, the people that have conversations with me like that, although I hate it sometimes, is so candid. I’m just like, that’s Joseph, my business partner. He he has this way of um having a really direct conversation with you. It’s exactly what you need to hear and and if it’s wellreceived because it’s a fact. Yeah. You know, that’s what that’s the importance of a great partner, too. Yeah. They point out that you without threat of of uh judgment or or a unfair assessment. Hey, look, good point. Yep. Exactly. So, well, thanks for reminding me of the opportunity we have today to kind of like be where our feet are, you know, move our move move our passion and our purpose into this world, impact lives one day at a time. I think it’s I think I get into this work for a lot of the reasons that you do the work too is, you know, there’s been family. It’s very near and dear to my heart that I have the utmost of hope for in the recovery process, but it g me great strength to reach out into the community and u be able to help others as well. Well, our relationship means a great deal to me, Chris. You you as as people get older, they look for depth, and you are certainly a man of depth and your your wisdom, and I’m always trying to learn this and the world you’re in, is needed, and it’s only growing. And so, it it’s been a it’s been a very interesting journey with you. God bless. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It’s a pleasure. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure. We’ll have to have you on again soon. We’ll do Mark Clayball. Everybody, until next time, thank you so much. Find us on all your podcasts. Peace out, y’all.

In this special episode of Finding Peaks, Chris welcomes back the team behind KK Fearless for a heartfelt conversation centered on recovery, family, community, and the transformative power of music.

Together, they unveil Krystle’s Corner, a dedicated music space for clients at Peaks Recovery Centers, where creativity, connection, and healing can thrive. The conversation explores how music can help dismantle shame, foster belonging, and provide meaningful outlets for self-expression throughout the recovery journey. The KK Fearless team shares updates on their mission, reflects on the lasting legacy that inspired the organization, and discusses the importance of innovative approaches that help people reconnect with themselves and others. From stories of hope and resilience to the simple moments that create lasting impact, this episode highlights why community remains one of the most powerful forces in recovery. Join us for an inspiring discussion about healing, connection, and how music can help people find their voice when they need it most.

You can’t punish somebody into sobriety. And I say that all the time. And I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do, right? I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. I always tell people today that I think Peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers. Music is like a a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity, um put the stigma behind you, um and move forward. Like I think it’s perfecting untapped for sure.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. I am back with my friends from KK Fearless. Today you got your your yours truly, Chris Burns, president and founder in the house. We’ve got Brooke and Melinda. So grateful to have you guys back on the show. We got board members Katie and Len. Welcome to the show for the first time as well. Um I had it written down so I’m going to look. Um, but that you were on show 45, 104, and now show 164. Welcome to the show, you guys. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. So grateful to have you. Um, this is a cause and a benefit that is like very near and dear to my heart. And we had done a benefit concert back in 2023 and we raised money and we had the guitar and subsequent things would happen from like a business perspective and life got busy and uh peaks wasn’t in a position to I think really give this space the depth and credit that it really really deserved both Crystal and Kevin specifically. And so I reconnected with you guys and today we were able to inaugurate the space Crystal and Kevin’s Corner for the first time at Peaks Recovery Centers. We’re really thrilled. It’s a nice little nook in the downstairs of the women’s home. We got a beautiful memorial that you all brought in. We got a guitar, a cool drum, a piano, and um I I think a lot of people are going to find um peace and connection in that space. And I think a lot of your mission will show up there to allow and what I always say your mission is and I I know this isn’t like verbatim but I always say you guys create spaces so artists can paint or artists can play you know and so um what was that like for you guys today you know coming back into a very much different space than we were in 10 years ago Melinda overwhelming and uh you know be able to still keep this energy alive keep this mission alive keep those beautiful faces through these beautiful spaces alive. Uh what was that like for you guys today? Yeah, I think it was great to see the space set up. You guys did a wonderful, beautiful job um honoring that space and keeping you know Crystal and Kevin’s corner what we had envisioned uh years ago. Uh it really is beautiful and even seeing some of the residents there um talk about what they did for that space and hope you like what you see down there and that kind of everything that they took into it as well. Um even though you know we talk about this all the time there’s a lot of people including Katie and Lynn people on the board that never met Crystal and Kevin but are here um supporting them and knowing the mission right and just loving that. And so it’s just so uh it’s a beautiful thing really to see that and their legacy still and them still touching people’s lives, you know. That’s why we’re here. Yeah. That’s what started it. That’s that was the whole point. Mhm. You know, to help people in recovery. That’s all I I That’s all I want. Mhm. I just want I want people to have that outlet. Mhm. Um to be able to help them get through their recovery in a healthy space. And it’s a warm space. Mhm. It’s beautiful. The view is unbelievable. The facility is, like I said, I feel like I’m in Bale at some resort, you know? You’re paying $500 a night to stay there kind of thing. That’s what it feels. The vibe. Mhm. The vibe is amazing. So, I couldn’t be honestly, I couldn’t be happier with it. Yeah. I’m so stoked with the way it turned out. And to your point, it just Yeah. It feels like the the vibes are alive there. And it is. Yeah. Mhm. as I’ve been talking lately about the space and about KK Fearless and and more specifically um Crystal who I knew well but Kevin as well and I I put them in the same the same boat but what what I often tell people is that what Crystal and Kevin needed was far beyond what the treatment industry could provide at that time they were far beyond they were so what anybody could offer and it wasn’t they were very very special humans and I always tell people today that I think peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers, you know, and so I always feel like I need to say that and and that Peaks aims in a way to dismiss and lift that shame so that people like Kevin and Crystal that that struggle with shame and addiction um can do the work that they need to, you know. Yeah. So, Len, Katie, welcome to the show. These are board members. How many board members do we have? Um, total, I think there’s six or seven of us. Okay. Yeah. And how long’s the nonprofit been going? So, it originated we did a year after Crystal’s death. And so, February 12th, 2018 is when we originated as a nonprofit. Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, shoot, man. Almost a decade. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s gone by fast. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe starting with you, Len, like what has been I think this nonprofit is just so rad. What what you all aim to do to build these musical spaces so people can paint and do their thing and feel safe in doing that is one of the coolest things. But what has it been like being on the board, Len? Um supporting this mission and this vision. Uh so far it’s been um a blessing um in my own life. I met Brooke at work. Uh she’s a co-orker of mine. um she shared her her passion for what she was doing and her nonprofit and it was contagious. Um it moved me. It made me want to be a part of it in any way possible. Um so it gives it gives me also a an avenue to um express my passion for music. Um I never met Kevin or Crystal. Um but like I’ve told before, I kind of feel like I get to know them through her being around her at work. I’m seeing what she’s like and and her inspiration in my own life and my recovery is has had an impact on me personally just watching how she perseveres and does what she does um with her life and in with this nonprofit. So, the music thing is a huge thing for me. Um it’s a refuge in my own recovery. I’m a person in long-term recovery myself and uh so it just makes sense to uh push it into KK as much as I can. Um so yeah. You play music? No, I don’t. But um I spend a lot of time discovering music. Um yeah, I mean that’s pretty much all I do when I’m not working. That’s cool. Um yeah, music’s a big deal to me. Better than medicine. Yeah, it’s so good. I don’t know how to play anything, right? And I think that’s something to touch on too is like with KK Fearless, it’s not We were also thinking about getting headphones to donate and people can just go in and jam, right? Just listen to music because not everyone, including me, know how to play an instrument, you know? I don’t know where they got but it wasn’t me. Yeah. Um but me, Crystal, and Kevin, I mean, we that’s what we did. We listened to music and discovered new music all the time and went to concerts and you know, we are Euro professionals. Let me tell you. Yeah. That’s so good. I mean professionals. Yes. Yeah. So, I think just to kind of touch on that like you don’t need to play an instrument um for us to be able to help or to work through that through your own recovery, through your own healing. You don’t need to know how to play, right? Yep. It’s just the beauty of listening to music itself. Yeah. One of the things I’m most excited about this space. Um is that like one of my favorite things to do is to watch artists on campus do their thing. They’ll write songs there about their stay there. They’ll get together. They’ll cultivate these things. And it’s like I’ll sit there and I’ll just watch and be moved to tears. I’m like, you cool if I watch? And now we got this space where I know that I’ll just be able to just go find people and I can just sit at that table and watch people express themselves because it’s it’s so cool for me because I’m one of these like a type people. I just I’m like I bounce off the wall and I’m very like and then to watch somebody who may be a bit more introverted get behind their instrument like that’s gangster. You’re just like whoa that’s how you talk like Yeah. It makes the hair on my neck stand up expression. It’s an avenue of expression. If they can’t do it another way, they could do it with their music. And that’s something I was thinking. We just went to the guitar center that we grew up going to yesterday. We were in that area. Um, and I just remember I just get flashbacks of seeing Crystal and Kevin go in there and in the little, you know, they have a little studio where you can play the drums or the guitar and just sitting there watching them. Oh, yeah. They’re like 14, 15 years old. Walk in there, grab a guitar, plug it in. They’re jamming out inside their and they’re just themselves, right? Drums and just, you know, they they taught themselves and it was their the way they healed themselves. Was he a drummer? They both were. They knew how to play a lot of They taught themselves drums and guitar and then Crystal taught herself uh piano. Oh, it’s beautiful. So, um we do have that video of her playing a song on the piano. So, just those people that could just Yeah, there are those people. Yeah. And then here’s me and Brooke. I’m like like how do I even like move this hand? I know it has to be not coordinated at all. Hear it. I love it, but I can’t play. I can’t do it. It’s so cool to watch. Yeah, they were amazing. They were amazing people. Mhm. They were. How about you, Katie? How long have you been on the board and and you know what kind of like impassions you about the project and the mission and kind of being here today? um been on the board for a few months. I also met Brooke at work. Um and music’s been a huge part of my recovery. Um music’s just been a big part of my life in general. Um and it’s been so helpful and beneficial that, you know, want to spread it to other people for their recovery as well. Mhm. So I’m not as talented as like just pick it up and burning strings which I wish I could. Yeah. Yeah. You do play the guitar though. I’m working on that. Yeah. She’s learning. Nice. I was more of a choir person. Mhm. You sing. Not well anymore. They call me the my generation.
That’s really really cool. It’s inspiring to be around other artists too. Even though like I don’t consider myself an artist or maybe I maybe I do. I just have a different kind of paintbrush and I think we’re all artists. I was going to say you’re an artist, you know. It’s just different. Yeah. And we’re all kind of doing our our painting of life and walking that thing through one day at a time, you know. But it’s interesting and I’ve told this story I think the first time maybe I had Brooke and maybe Stephanie on, but maybe Melinda was on as well. Um I when I got into this field I was 22 23 years old. I’m 40 now. M so I’m I’ve grown up in this thing and I’ll never forget I couldn’t wait. I was a house manager and I and I ran across this kid named Kyle. This kid named Kyle had been in this program that I’d been in for like 12 months. Like I thought it was a six-month program, whatever. So I would sit down with Kyle and I’m like a behavioral health tech house manager and I’m like it’s almost 20 years ago and I’m like Kyle tell me about yourself. He’s like yeah so my dad’s an orthodontist. I’m like oh okay cool. You know, I said, “What’s your mom do?” Said, “Mom’s an orthodontist.” I said, “What’s your cousins?” You know, my cousin’s loser. He does general dentistry, you know, or whatever. You know, they’re all dentists or orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist. Successful. Everyone’s successful. He hasn’t told me any issues from mental health perspective whatsoever other than a fluency and success. And I said, “Kyle, what are you?” And he goes, “I’m an artist.” And in that moment and having like fast forwarded through a 20-year career, I knew ex I know exactly what I am sitting in front of. And it’s been my experience over the last 18 to 20 years. A lot of times artists, they get so lost in our society because when we look at things like what’s the test, the IQ test, there’s not a lot of like I don’t I I’ve never taken an IQ test, but I imagine I wouldn’t do well. But now they have these new IQ tests that in inform like social and this artist thing and all these other components that inform I think some of this stuff that we’re talking about because often times artists are told why don’t you do something with your life that isn’t what you love cuz that would be foolish, right? Yeah. It’s the measurement. What do you measure yourself against? Yeah. It’s different for everybody because it usually comes from your environment. your environment that you grow up in um you know your friends. You measure yourself against that. So yeah. And sometimes dad’s like this big CEO and you’re a drummer. Yeah. And he’s like Yeah. They don’t get it. They’re on a different plane. Exactly. They don’t get it because they think differently. And And that’s okay. Right. Until somebody says, “You know what? I know I’m a CEO. I know I own this company. and I do all this, but you do you. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I love about What’s wrong with that? Exactly. Absolutely nothing. And that’s where sustainable recovery lives. Exactly. Exactly. Be okay with it. I think that goes hand in hand with with a person in recovery, you know, music, um someone in in active recovery, they’re they’re trying to um find their identity again. Oh, yeah. Yeah. you lose yourself, right? Lose yourself. You lose yourself. Music is like a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity. Um, put the stigma behind you. Yeah. Um, and move forward. Like I think it’s perfect thing. Untapped for sure in recovery. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. That’s beautiful. And I really believe like sustainable recovery is like what I do, what I what I’m passionate about. I I got to touch every day. Yeah. Like it’s what it’s what makes my soul sink, you know? And so what I tell artists, anybody who’s coming in, like if we paint, we paint every day. Whether we get paid for it or not, like if we play, we play every day. Like we’re into this thing that makes us come alive. And if some if if one day we’re at Red Rocks, one day we’re at Red Rocks, so be it. But otherwise, like I want to I want to feel that aliveness. I want to be connected with these things. I remember I used to do this. I don’t know if I’ve told you guys, but when I was a young entrepreneur, not not a young entrepreneur. I guess I would have been a young entrepreneur, but I was working for somebody, but I was a young house manager. They used to do this thing called music therapy at this place that I worked called Decision Point Center, and it was 1 hour every Thursday. And they’re like, “Chris, I mean, yeah, hopefully places that are doing it give it a little bit more uh a little bit more foundation than they did, but they’re like, “Chris, you do music therapy.” And I was like, “I can get I’ll do anything, man. I remember you. Yeah, you remember, right? So, I’m like, okay, so I’m music therapist. Like, let’s go. Like, what are we doing? Music moves my soul. You know what I’m saying? So, we get in there and I’m like, oh [ __ ] this is going bad. You know, but for the most part, it was just about us kind of getting together, vibing on the music, learning what that song may or may not have meant for the individual, understanding that, connecting with the person through that, and walking forward. And it so it was this very, very cool thing. Um that I think is just like music has this um I think the ethos of it in general is like a togetherness. It brings people together. Music will connect. Yeah. You can connect through music. And personally I can tell you how old I was and where I was from the song. I do it all the time. Oh, I was 13 and we lived in Aurora. Oh my god. When the song came out. I can tell you where I was. I remember all just because of the song. Not because I remember. I can’t remember what I did yesterday. Yeah, but I can tell you if certain song comes on, I can tell you how old I was and where I was and what was going on and that sort of thing. So that’s the connection with music doesn’t have to be I wasn’t I wasn’t sitting playing the guitar, right? I was listening to a song, the Go. I just heard it the other day. The Go-Os. We got the beat. I was 12. Oh, really? Oh, no way. That’s great. I was 12. That’s great. I was 12. I don’t know why. Like the cranberries are one of those bands for me, too. Just like kind of string you through time. You hear it and you go, “Oh my god, I remember this song and I was here and I this is when the music video came out and Yeah. Yeah. I was there when the first like John Baj joi
the first video. I’m serious. That’s awesome. Yeah. The first video. Back in my day. Back in my day. Well, you’re much older than me. Yeah. Right. We already talked about this, but back in my day, you would get the CD case or the tape case and you’d open it up because you’d be going to school the next day. You’d have to know the words of the songs. You didn’t want to be the person in fifth grade who didn’t know the words to the new Melissa Ethridge album or whatever. Sometimes they have the lyrics. Exactly. Yeah. And that was so disappointing. Yeah. I didn’t know they had lyrics on them. Yeah. So that’s how you because my kids now are like how do you know every word to this dad? I’m like cuz you read it back in the day. You just listen. You read it. And when you went from cassette tapes to CDs, it was great because the CDs, they had enough room in there to put the thing so you can unfold it and you had all the cassette tapes didn’t. And neither did vinyl cuz Yeah. I could go back as far as vinyl and Yeah. Now I got vinyl now. Oh, yeah. I love vinyl. Yeah. I had I had albums. I could tell my brother brought me Steve Miller Band when I was 7 years old for my birthday. Oh, that’s cool. I mean, that’s that’s how I associate her and it’s good. It’s good stuff. Y I remember my dad had the Billy Ray Cyrus tape. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Achy break your heart. It’s so funny. Yeah. I can tell you how old I was. Anybody want to know where I was? Did I ever tell you guys your music, man? It’s just we could all connect through music forever. And I think it’s cool that we’re having a conversation about it. Um, Miss Star was my I’ve said this on the podcast. Coop knows the whole story. But since we’re talking about music, so there in the early 90s, they would do you would you would pick a song, sing it out loud, and get a grade from the teacher. Oh, and you could have partners or you could do it by yourself, right? And I was like I always felt like I was on the edge of cool, but never quite like cool. No, just like right on the edge most often and just not in there. And so like back in the in the early 90s, one of the cool songs that was out was a Culio Dangerous Minds. Oh yeah. D gangster Paradise, right? And so everybody knew like you’re singing that song, man, like and you’re hiding it from your parents or you’re not or whatever, like and so I’m on the outside of Cool. So my three what I thought were my friends. They do the song. They didn’t ask me to be a part of it. So I’m I’m over here and my mom, she had just had got the new Melissa Ethridge album. Oh yeah. That had the song on it. Come to my window. Oh yeah. Right. Uhhuh. I’m third grade boy. You know what I mean? It’s hard. It’s early ‘9s, right? There’s no cameras. Like, so I go in there. I basically get booed out of there. She gives me a C minus out loud. Oh, no wonder the treatment really became popular like when I hit my 20s cuz we were like, “What?” Yeah. Right. They were given C minuses out loud by me star. Wow. And then the guys came up with Dangerous Minds. They got an A minus. Oh, they were so cool. And they were the coolest. I’m just like, “Oh, I was this is devastating.” Like, this is the worst. But so I’ve always thought about that. But yeah, music’s so valuable. Yeah. You don’t want to be on the edge of cool. Yeah. It’s a testament to how powerful it really is. In active addiction, I think I think music’s powerful for the wrong reasons sometimes, but in recovery, just as powerful, like the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. That’s why we would love to just push it everywhere we can. Yeah. Yeah. That’s we’re figuring it out. But yeah, now that we’re on that side of it, push it hard. Yeah. That’s nice. Yeah, I remember being in early recovery. Me and my roommate Rody, we picked up like one, two, three, four ears together. Um, and um, we would we would play music on the thing. We’d plug our phones in, play music. We would just clean and we would dump all our underwear out on the table. We would count them. Well, cuz when you’re in, we didn’t have very many underwear, unfortunately. So, we I came in with like one pair that were pretty tattered, you know, a lot of space in those things. And so, I remember we’re like, we’re like four months sober. Simple stuff, right? We’re we’re jamming, dude. We got the music. We got playlist. We can download music cuz we got phones and we got internet connection. Like really creature comforts that people take for granted that we didn’t have. And we do it and we’re like, we got six pairs of Tony’s, you know, and we’re listening to our favorite band and we’re in recovery. It’s like, dude, I remember those times. I talked about them all the time, like simplest, most gratifying, like connected times of our lives, you know, and a lot of it had to do with music, mopping, yeah, you know, undies and things. I’m a strong believer in it. I watched somebody that I love very much was an alcoholic for many, many years. And he got sober by putting headphones on and playing his guitar for months, weeks at a time. Mhm. That’s all he did when he wasn’t working. And that’s how he got sober. And he’s still sober. It’s interesting you’re in saying that, too, because a lot of the movement, especially for our vets who we’ve gotten into serving through our Triricare Tri West contract, um, a lot of the movement for the for vets is in the psychedelic realm now. Yeah. But a lot of it is integrated through song through music. Well, don’t isn’t it in the therapeutic setting they sit and listen to music while they’re Yeah. While they’re Yeah. And they’ll put on the eye I wear eye mask to go to sleep. I love it. But yeah, they wear they do that as well. Um and for like four to six hours it’s just like whatever comes to them through the music. I’m very hopeful for that because my my husband Jason is a Marine and he’s a Gulf War vet. Oh wow. and um he has a lot of PTSD and you know that sort of thing and I’m really hopeful that that’s something that he’ll be able to get to be a part of because I think it’ll be a lot more helpful than everything else they don’t do. Yeah, there’s a lot of um we’ve been in the space now for over the last year. We have a military leaison. He’s a 23 uh year vet. He’s been deployed six times. He’s on and off works in United States Air Force Academy. We work with a tremendous amount of providers up in Denver that’s serving this population. We’ve had Sam Peterson as well as Dr. Ron Schwinkler on the show. Uh he’s the psychologist for Denver Mind Spa up in Denver. I think in my opinion they’re doing some of the most funky stuff for vets, combat vets. They’re doing intraasal stem cell. They’re getting it approved through the VA. Vets are having TBI remission of symptoms in like 20 days. Oh wow. Um, not only does he do the TMS that we were talking about, the transcranial magnetic, he couples it with ketamine therapy through song, their ketamine chairs have Dr. Ron plays the sound bowls and they have like speakers on like boom boom like the vibration. Yeah. Know drags it through and they have hyperbaric oxygen chamber like they’re doing all this really really cool stuff. So um especially for PTSD and TBI and things of that nature. So and it’s interesting because all all of it’s integrated through song. Yeah. Yes. you know. Yeah, cuz sometimes like I’m going to see a artist say, this guy named protege and I call it protege church and people are like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, “I made that up. I made that up.” But like, “What’s protege church?” I’m like, “If you just like, especially with music,” and I’ve learned this maybe over just the last few years when I’ve gotten more comfortable just kind of being who I am, which is just kind of this nutty dude. And that’s okay. And it’s okay to let that out a little bit. You know what I’m saying? And so like just being like at a concert and you’re vibing on some music, it’s like, “Hey, we’re just going to be with this, man. Just let your body do what it needs to do and shake that [  ] out.” And who cares? Like it doesn’t like I don’t have to look cool, any of that. We’re just going to be with the vibration and do this thing. And so like music over the last few years, specifically concerts, maybe it’s Red Rocks or just like taking my shoes off or just being with something. And this is like, you know, 18 years of sobriety in June, you know, like, and this is just like, wow. You know, so I love it. I love that we’re talking about this because I don’t I don’t know that there’s been something over the last few years. I didn’t go to concerts before I got sober ever. Never. Maybe like one or two. I was busy. Used to be opposite. Yeah. So like I get to go and I’m like, “Oh man, it seems heavy to drink.” Usually one and the same. Yeah. It seems really these stairs. Like I always think at red rocks when people are drinking I’m like [  ] stairs to climb like that man you know. Yeah. Imagine you got drunk and you got to go to the bathroom at the bottom and you got to come back at the top. I’m like dude this is hard for me dark. Yeah. I’m like totally with it you know. So yeah it’s it’s just it’s been so cool just having you guys back on today back in the facility like coming full circle which was you know literally a decade ago as we talked about. Um a lot of things have evolved for us and growing up. We kind of had a chat in the corner of, you know, some of the professionals aren’t here and it and it’s nothing about the professionals that aren’t here. It’s about the company and the business being able to evolve long term. It’s growth. Yeah. Yeah. To help you’re going to have to grow and create that culture like I said. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. And our mission here still is it’s very clear. It’s to save lives and it’s disrupt the industry through quality of care because as we’ve talked about before, not only were they ahead of this industry’s time, um I think a lot of people need to aim to be ahead of this industry’s time. There’s 13,000 treatment providers. I wouldn’t send someone I hated to 12,950 of them. And Peaks wants to be one of those 50 that aims to anchor with families like yourself to walk in a true and an authentic way into healing, not lifelong suffering. Yeah. Yeah. We got to get away from I mean not only the stigma which we’ve talked about many times the stigma of addiction but until you can’t punish somebody into sobriety and I say that all the time and I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do. Right. I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. My mom did it to my brother. Tough love. Yeah. Yes. Tough love. There we were. You know that that generation my generation was all about that tough love. Get up and do it. Don’t be a [  ] Well, not only that. Not only that, Melinda, but like intervention is like flying off the shelves when you’re going through this, right? And so it’s about bringing It’s interesting, too, and it’s sad because we don’t do it anymore, but it it really aims to bring the most vulnerable person into the room, wage every single piece of connection that they love and care about against them. Yes. And hope they make a good decision 100%. And you cannot punish anybody into sobriety. It doesn’t work that way. And unfortunately, I figured out the hard way. Mhm. I figured I two I lost two to it. Yeah. Because I That’s how I was raised. Mhm. Was you know you you don’t we don’t do [  ] like this. Y right. That’s not how we do things. Yeah. So get sober. Yeah. Not only were you raised by that, the industry met you in a very vulnerable spot as a parent because you’re you’re raised by this generational thing and then you’re coming into an industry like you’re right. Get your [  ] together. That’s how that’s what it was. It was like you were you were looked at like you were some loser because you know you you had addiction and unfortunately it’s still like that today. But as a parent, as a parent, that’s the biggest advice I could give a parent that’s has a child, old, young, it doesn’t matter. You cannot punish them sober. Yeah. You will not punish them sober. You have to try to get other people involved. Yeah. Like this. You have to give them that opportunity somehow. Mhm. Somehow for somebody to accept them for who they are. Yeah. I love what you’re saying. And write it. And you have to write it. And when when one person in your family is in active addiction, everybody is. Yeah. And a lot of people don’t realize that until you’re in it. Yeah. You know, you got to get far enough away from it to look back and say, “Yeah, man. I [  ] that up. I should have never done that.” And I do it all the time. Mhm. I love what you’re saying, Melinda, because what you’re talking about now is kind of the ethos of the way that we kind of walk people into recovery. And that’s what you were telling me today. It’s about I’m actually instead of going to wage this against you. I’m going to love you into recovery. Yes, exactly. I’m going to inform your values so much that you’re actually going to make a you’re going to pick up the phone and call because I’m just going to keep loving on you and I’m going to show you how much I love you and that I’m not going anywhere. And yeah, that behavior it’s not going to apply here and you can’t take my stuff and things like that. Sure. But I you are so lovable. You know what I mean? And I think somewhere and along the lines in our field we got lazy or we picked it up or we put it down. But I think it’s back to your point. It’s like, you know, my grandfather was the greatest human I ever met until I got into recovery. And you better His thing on kids was like, “You’d be seen, not heard.” Exactly. That’s that was a great guy. He’s my guy. You know what I mean? And I remember Thanksgiving, man, you couldn’t even hear the adult table, you know? And then we’re coming into here and it’s no wonder it’s taken us so long as a field and as an environment to go, “Oh, addiction, not no, not bad.” Yeah. Hard to get enough of something that almost works. That’s how we look at it. It has to be looked at as a medical issue, right? It’s not a criminal issue. It’s a medical issue. And until people start looking at it as a medical issue, mental health is medical. Yep. It’s not criminal because you’re struggling to get through the day and you steal something so you can get high. Okay. Yeah, you committed a crime, but what does that make you? I mean, are you really now a criminal? Like, maybe titlewise, but We have everybody has to stop especially law enforcement. Yeah. There there’s a lot of training that has to be done with mental health. Agree. A lot. And they and they are doing it and you hear talk of it and um talking to Brooke about different things that they’ve done in places she’s worked. Um but until everybody looks at it as like this is a health issue. This isn’t a criminal issue. Just cuz you’re an addict does not make you automatically a criminal. Oh, for sure. And it’s interesting. I I love that you say that too because everybody copes. I just happen to have a beer in my hand or whatever and it worked. Yeah. But like also too like my wife struggled with codependency. People die that way all the time from relationships. And if somebody with codependency who has this ability to put value in others more than themselves, if they live to 90 and a substance user lives to 90, they’re in the same spot, isolated, disconnected, all alone with no friends. It just so happens that substances have this informed risk and so people are like it’s the bad thing. Ever since Reagan was like war on drugs, you know, it’s like get them every like [  ] you know, it’s like but it’s not like I used to also tune my world out to say that I would disassociate so bad that you could be chopping up a body. I’ve never seen a body chopped up. I’ve said this before, but like I would disassociate and there’s such harmful effects to that. You get on probation at 22, you can’t follow the rules. Why? Well, cuz this behavior kept me alive at a young age and now it’s killing me as an adult. Similar to the substance thing. And so I think we got to just give our substance abusers a little bit of grace and space. And that’s why the Peaks model now, we don’t do substance use. We do mental health. Mentally healthy people don’t cope with substances. It’s not we can’t sobrietize sobriety into people. It’s the inverse, right? So now it’s like let’s work on our mental health. We might have some falls. We might have some scrapes, but let’s aim for mentally healthy. Yeah. And then watch the addiction go away. Watch the shame leave instead of being like, “What’s your relapse prevention plan? How many people have you called today? How many?” It’s like, “Oh jeez, this is shitty.” Yeah. So, and also after after recovery. Yeah. Long. Yeah. You have 28 days. You’ve got whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. But what you do after that is really important too. You have, you know, because that’s everything when uh that’s usually when we lost Kevin was he would do great and even Crystal did a couple times. He do great and then it’s like, okay, he did great. Bye. Right. Bye. You know, and then they’re on the street and they’re like, “Where where’s everybody at now?” Mhm. You know, nobody wants to talk to him cuz you don’t want to be associating, right? You’re talking about community and it’s everything and it’s got to be long term. And it’s interesting you say that cuz what what folks find like Crystal and Kevin in programs like ours is, “Oh, this is what it feels like to be seen, valued, and heard in community. This is excellent.” So, they thrive and then they leave and they’re like, “Oh, this is what it feels like not to be seen, valued, and heard in community. So, I survive.” And then we come back into the facility. I know how. And then here we go. And it’s the cycle. Here we go again. Wow, this feels good. If we could emulate this somehow in community and have people that care, you know, but it’s almost like you can’t introduce the community quick enough down the line, you know? You got to have a lot of resources available to people for them to turn to when they are released from jail, from recovery, whatever. You know, they they still need help. 28 days is not going to it. All it does is get you sober. That’s why I said it’s like a it’s a detox. It’s a 28 day detox. Stability best. Exactly. And talk about what’s going on and you kind of clear your head to where you can think about things a little bit clearer and then you leave and then it’s there’s no support anymore. You’re on your own. Yep. And not only that, but you’re actually more vulnerable. Yeah. You have no job. You have no money. Your family doesn’t talk to you. Have no friends because you’ve screwed everybody over. But figure it out. Right. Yeah. Figure it out. Yeah. And I think sometimes like a person in long-term recovery like myself, there has to be consistency with just presence, just a kind gesture. We talk about it at work a lot like, oh yeah, you get burnt out. I mean, it’s a lot. It’s hard. But if you just give someone just a moment, what’s what’s the big deal? Maybe that’s all they’re going to need. And you keep doing it. Um, as a person in long-term recovery, that’s that’s huge for me. Yeah. To give to give back to people. because I’m not going to have all the answers. Um my my road to recovery is going to be different than theirs, but if I show up for them consistently, I might be what gets them over the hump. Yeah. You know, and it doesn’t take much. It really doesn’t. Yeah. It feels good for you. Yeah. It absolutely my recovery big time. That’s a great point. Yeah. That’s huge. It’s And when you really spend a moment, not like, “Hey, how are you? Okay. Great day. Bye.” Oh, yeah. But when you just do a moment, I call them like meaningful moments that matter. Yeah, people are like, “Fuck, you actually cared and it was like 8 seconds like thanks.” You know, so finding that I think we have a team of them at Peaks right now. It’s like that’s kind of the standard since over the last year is like, “Hey man, we’re going to show up and check it out.” Every day has to be like the Super Bowl, cuz these people that are walking in are making the most courageous decision of their lives. And somewhere somehow someway in our field, we’ve lost sight of that. So this is the standard. If you can’t meet the standard, you can’t be here. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with us. It’s just what we got to do. This is our mission and it’s one day at a time. And the people that walk in the door like we got this one moment and these people Yeah. They’re hypervigilant. They’re not trusting. They’re called trauma informed people because they’ve walked through a lot and then they know [  ] Oh yeah. So quick. They’re like this is whack. You know, you’re like, I don’t know why we couldn’t say it’s like Yeah. Because you weren’t authentic with a human. Exactly. You know, in a moment where you’re a [ __ ] stranger. Yep. So, I’m really grateful too that I could sit here with you guys a decade removed and having really grown peaks in a way that I think is um really really valuable to the human race. You know, in the midst of a healthcare industry that’s being taken over by companies that are publicly traded on the Dow Jones for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. You know, we still got this personal touch. We’re able to sit here and I think through KK Fearless, Melinda, Brooke, you all’s impact and your voices, we get to keep Crystal and Kevin alive one day at a time in a really, really tremendous way. Yeah. And continue to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate what Peace has done. Yes. Um through it all as well and being a huge supporter with KK Fearless and Crystal and having a photo of her and just bringing this Crystal in Kevin’s corner. I mean you guys, it’s huge and we really appreciate repay you for that. Yeah. There’s no amount of money that would suffice to pay back for that. Yeah. Well, and you’re helping us carry on that legacy. You know, you have a huge part in that. Huge part. Yeah. You guys were a huge part of Crystal’s recovery, you know. Yeah. And uh if her little brother wouldn’t have passed away, she probably would still be here, right? We have to assume. Yeah. That you know, grief plays a a huge part in addiction also, which is mental health. It all just one big circle. Now we have a grief week. Turns out it’s a really big thing right now because a lot of people use, you know, that’s mental health. Grief. Yeah. Grief will take you down. Most people in this world are rolling over grief like it’s a little speed bump. These are big things. Oh god. Yeah. Yeah. It’ll take you out of the game. Completely. Well, I want you to know and I and I know you know this, but um Peaks is alive and well and I am committed from this platform to continue to tell this story. Um and and I assure you that our platform is going to continue to grow and the story is going to get louder. It’s going to get bigger. It’s going to get more connected. Um, and we’re going to continue to do that one day at a time. And we will do whatever we have to to help with that. Make sure it happens. Whatever you need, whatever we have to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we just hope that the the music space really does touch people, you know, make an impact in their recovery. Yeah. We want it to help somebody. I want someone to walk away and really think about that um when they’re not at the facility and still take that with them. Exactly. And try to and and take that piece of it and um hold on to that hopefully, you know, and remember that it’s really important. Yeah, it’s uh what this space will do. I think um I I I’m close to it, so I I know it’s going to be very very impactful. In fact, we had a guy go through our program and I’ll kind of leave you this just the power of music. Um, his name was Luke and his family was a um, a bunch of musicians on Broadway back in New York City. He’s from Manhattan. I see. Been to our program a couple times and um, the last time he came here, he’s doing really, really well. He’s up in Denver, unfortunately. Lost his life over. Luke, I mean, when he sang, it was so good. And so, he wrote this song when he was at Peaks and he played it and I had a video of it. It’s so good. It’s like 4 minutes and he just rips and it’s all about his thing here and recovery and it’s acoustic. So I call his dad after he passes, right? Right. And I said, you know, like I actually called his mom and his dad called me back. And sometimes artists are very stoked to, you know, they have a different way of expressing their emotions and things of that through, you know, and so I have this call with him and I said, “Hey, I I have a video of your son.” And every time this video, I played this video, I moved it. It’s how I remember Luke. And so I I sent it to his dad. And you know, 20 minutes later, he says, “That’s how I’m going to remember my boy. Mhm. You know what I mean? And I have these moments and these memories of of humans that um are no longer here. Um and I have these very very wonderful memories because I believe that I get to spend sometimes unfortunately or fortunately some of the best moments of people’s lives with them. Yeah. Oh, you do? And a side of their family they don’t see. You get to see that side, you know. Yeah. Really awesome. So, having said that, I I thank you for sharing your family with me. It means a lot. Thank you. Um, and thank you guys for coming on the show. Thank you, Robin. Uh, thank you all my beautiful people out there in podcast land. Until next time, my beautiful people.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits down with Patricia Shannon, one of Peaks Recovery Centers’ Peer Recovery Coaches, to explore the belief that makes the impossible possible. Patricia shares what motivates her to show up each day, why recovery work is far more than a job, and what makes the Peaks approach different. Through pieces of her own story and the lessons she’s learned along the way, Pat reflects on the power of authenticity, the importance of truly being heard, and the lasting impact we can have on others, even when we may never fully realize it. This conversation is a reminder that healing often begins with connection, that hope can be contagious, and that sometimes the most meaningful change starts when someone believes in us before we’re able to believe in ourselves.

What keeps me inspired is just seeing and and being there for for people that that needs it. There’s days when, oh gosh, I want to sleep in, but
somebody out there needs me. But like everything we’ve ever wanted is right here. Coming from a place where you never had it, it’s so nice to be able to give it.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, Christopher Michael Burns. I am joined today. Boy, am I excited for this show. You know, I got a dear friend, a colleague, someone who inspires me on a daily basis, reminds me to continue to work hard, reminds me to continue to show up with authenticity one day at a time, and treat every single day that we have the opportunity to serve humans like the freaking Super Bowl. So grateful to have you on the show, Miss Patricia. How are you today, my dear friend? Sexy as usual. You already know how. Sexy as usual. Oh my gosh, it’s so funny you say that, man. I was I was on some [ __ ] the other day at the dermatologist and you know they strip you down. You ever do you do the annual thing? You should. Anyway, they take this Well, they maybe just do it for me, but it’s a it’s a microscope and they run it on your body. I think it’s cuz I got tattoos, but they’re just looking for like any like bad moles or anything. So, when I get in there, the young nursing assistant or medical assistant, he says, you know, he’s probably 19 years old, good fit looking kid. He says, “Anything changed since last year, Mr. Burns?” I said, “Fitter by the day.” He said, he’s just like, “Huh?” said, “Happy Monday, man.” You know, “Here we go.” Yeah. I love that. That’s what I thought of when you when you opened up, man. That’s so cool. You should know. You should know. Yeah. I love I love what we get to share and that’s why I look so forward to to this show is that there there’s something when when when people are are connected in this world on kind of the same vibration in the same wavelength in the same type of energy. Um I just feel like I see them really really clearly and I feel like you see me really really clearly and have always seen me really really clearly. Always. Yeah. And so to have you sitting across from me on this beautiful snowy day in Colorado Springs with what we the big we like capital we have been able to accomplish over the last 12 months in the name of serving others has been pretty miraculous and and you’ve been a huge part of that. Um so I wanted to chat a little bit about you know what what’s what’s keeping you motivated lately um at Peaks. What’s keeping you so inspired? What keeps me inspired is just seeing and and being there for for people that that needs it, you know. Um coming from a place where you never had it, it’s so nice to be able to give it and that’s just the love, kindness, understanding, you know, having that active ear always. Mhm. It keeps me inspired to keep coming back. Mhm. Cuz I know that’s where I’m going to get it at. Yeah. And be able to give it. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing. You know what they used to tell me when I was when I first started working in the field? What they tell you? When I was a young 12step kid, um they used to say that you your work your your work can’t be your recovery. And I had a real tough time with that at the time. Um because I’m sitting there thinking I said what what what else do I got? You know, when I started this thing almost 20 years ago, it’s like I got nothing. I got my credit score is 200. I’m working at the gas station. I got no friends. I got no family. You you telling me that that that can’t that’s not going to be a part of this. What I’ve learned over the years is yes, we show up and we do a job, but when you take it to the next level on a daily basis and you’re inspired in a certain type of way to deliver a certain type of energy and authenticity and sit with people, that can be every bit of your recovery and the way that you show up in this world because it’s it’s like it’s not even on the job description that way. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s not a job. No, I love that. Yeah. How long um how long you been fighting like this recovery thing? You said 2013, but I know like So, I’ve I’ve had several relapses, but this recovery is the best recovery that I’ve ever had. It is the recovery that I can honestly say, um, wow, I’m done.
I’m done. I don’t need that. I know what I need and I get up every morning and I come to it. Mhm.
You got to show up though, huh? Got to show up. Yeah. Have to. There’s days when Oh gosh, I want to sleep in, but
somebody out there needs me. Mhm. Yeah. And it’s real special cuz I was actually talking about somebody on it about it on Monday. It’s like to I don’t know if it’s like for everybody but at least in my experience I I think you need to have both and with respect to like having the experience of maybe feeling what it feels like to be tossed away and and then be renewed in community and foundationalizing connection with friends and people, places, and things. But I it’s interesting to me that the best helpers, I don’t even like to call them helpers, the best humans that I know have somewhat at least touched or felt that experience and and come to the other side. Yes. And it’s it’s turned out to be very very valuable for them, you know, and and it is it it is it’s it’s very valuable. is um it gives for me it gives me that I’m grateful very grateful
for it because
my experiences and in my past has made me who I am today Chris
and by me not liking that life. Mhm. And you told me to be raw. Mhm. But man, it’s hard being raw sitting there talking to you. Tears is going to fall. I’m going let you know. Okay. So, let’s go, baby. Here we go. I’m ready for it. Being in that life where
Sorry.
Thank you. in that that part of life where um I didn’t have no one to be kind and and loving and um to understand where I was. You know, yeah, my family loved me, but they didn’t understand and their love really didn’t matter because they didn’t understand me.
And then they didn’t understand the shame, the guilt, and all I ever would hear is, “Hey, you ain’t got to do this. You don’t have to do that. You got this.” And I’m like, “No, I don’t. I want to have it, but I don’t know how.”
and um being able to come and talk to people every day and be there for them and when when they walk in that door and to be able to tell them, “Hey, you’re safe now and mean it.”
It makes me so happy. That’s some powerful [ __ ] powerful
if you’re there for it. If you’re there for it, you know, I’m a millionaire. Did you know that? Yeah. Self-made, baby. I am a millionaire. Wealthy. I mean, that is just that has so much in it, you know? I mean, even we were talking on the way over here. Yeah. You know, I got a meeting today at two that I reschedled from yesterday. like we with someone same thing, you know, like and these are people like I have a friend of mine who went through peak seven years ago. He’s one of my best friends and every week he reminds me he’s like he’s a helicopter pilot. I think what he’s got going on is pretty [  ] cool. You know, he’s got a camper van. He lives in Steamboat. He like picks people up in the middle of the woods and [  ] like and he’s always like, “What do you got today?” He was like, “I got this, this, and this, but my door’s cracked.” And you know what that means? And he’s just like, “Man, you have the
what a gifted and miraculous and beautiful opportunity every single day to show up.” And if you choose, you can have five to 10 of those conversations a day. some of the most like jaw-dropping, soul connecting, earthshattering conversations if you’re there for it. If you’re there for it, what a what a blessing. I I can remember thinking when I got sober, they they I said all the time on here, they they diagnosed me with antisocial personality disorder. And now you probably too. Now you’re s we’re sitting here being like, “Oh man, you know, like that’s what I was saying. And I’m on a tour yesterday and I’m these people. It’s it’s this family-owned company and I’m sitting here thinking like my business partner has this baby in the office, right? Like I’m here. We’re all here and our competitors or the people like what you know like it’s different, man. It’s so different. You know what I mean? I was in the cafeteria yesterday saw a new guy. He’s 48 hours. He’s been here few days. You know, like some hot chocolate, you know? that made me feel great, right? You know, simple stuff. And that same person, that same alumni always says this thing. Um, and I’ve talked about it on the show, but it came out of the depths of like despair for me. Like, and I’m so grateful for the community that I had wrapped around me when I was doing this, and you’re one of them. But I would go in there and I’d say, “Buddy, like, Kyle, I’m gonna lose everything, man. like the whole dream, everything I got. Um, it’s all for nothing. All these things. I said, “Yeah, but my relationship with my wife and my kids is so much better and all these things.” And no matter where I wherever I was in the conversation or in in the experience of business and life, he would always say to me, “But it had to happen, bro. All of it. Every last piece of it.” I said, ‘ Man, it’s hurt real bad. Like, it’s hurt real bad. And uh he’s like, “Yeah, but it had to happen. Had to.” You know what I mean? It’s back to like where we sit, you know, and and all the things you’ve been through and what we walked through. And it’s like, man, that’s a hell of a cross to bear. But that had to happen. Had to, man. It’s almost like you coming out of the flames and then it’s like, man, I don’t know what it is about this person, but I just I trust her and I believe her. I think what she’s saying has fruit and I think I’m just going to maybe take her suggestions. It’s the most beautiful thing. I watch you up front doing your thing. You’re painting like an artist out there. You’re like Vincent freaking Van Go doing your thing. I love it. Yeah. You can tell you love it. I love it. Yeah. And it’s really really inspiring to have people um like yourself around me and there’s just not very many. You know, if you had um back in 2020 when you when you got it back into recovery this last time you over at the IHOP, right? Yes. Yeah. I two years I was at the Woody’s gas station. I think IHOP’s probably better gig than that. Yeah. At least you get tips and stuff. That’s where I was. I haven’t been to an IHOP in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. But last time I went, I remember thinking it was bomb. I um worked there. Met so many so many good people there. Um I met Sparkle there. Sparkle used to come to IHOP. That’s right. Once or twice a week she would come in there and I would she would always ask for me. I would always serve her. We would have short conversations and then just this one day she came and wasn’t a soul in there but her. And for some reason I went and sat down in her booth and that’s when I knew that it was time for me to move on. How long was that in 2020 or was it like 21 22? So no that was in um 20 the ending about the ending of 21. Okay. Mhm. Yeah. And for everybody who knows or doesn’t know, we’ve had Sparkle on the show before. She just celebrated seven years in recovery. Right. That was like a couple days ago. Mhm. Yeah. That’s dope. So So Pat’s in early recovery. She’s over at the the IHOP doing her thing, one foot in front of the other, trudging the road to happy destiny. I’m sure. You know what I mean? I get it. Like we all the same kind of thing. And sparkle. Yeah. You’re just having these little mini conversations, whatever. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She would pick me when she would come in there. She would ask for me if if I was the night one, so most of the time I was by myself, but if it was more than me working, she would ask for me to serve her. And we never ever knew that we would end up with the relationship that we have. She’s she’s amazing. And um yeah, it was her that gave me confirmation that I wasn’t supposed to be at IHOP. M I needed to be helping others cuz it can be I remember thinking that too like even at the gas station like yeah I’m in recovery like this cool but I’m not happy here I’m not I’m not going to be doing this for very long. You know what I mean? And then something happens. Yeah, right. It was money or help others. I’m going to help others. Mhm. Cuz I got it to give. Yeah. you know, and I never got it. And then I just I knew it was worth it. And then then that’s where I’m a millionaire at is what I give. Mhm. It’s worth a lot and I know it. Mhm. Oh, it’s worth more because I never got it. Yeah. You know, and so now giving it, I feel it because I feel it for myself. Yeah, man. How many people do we get the opportunity to sit with who have all the money in the world and they’ll they’ll be in your office. They’ll be in my office talking about I I’ll just go be a BHT. Like I just want to be here with y’all. Like what the what you guys are doing is really cool. Hey, a million dollars in the bank. They’re like I’ll do like what’s minimum wage? Yeah. cuz they understand like it’s not and it took me a long time in recovery to figure this out and on bad days I miss it and I miss it bad. But like everything we’ve ever wanted is right here, right here. And some days I miss that because of anxiety and and because of depression and maybe I eat too much ice cream. I don’t know, whatever it might be. But on the days when I’m locked into that vibration, like the moment, oh boy, that’s amazing feeling. Can’t even explain how it feels. Yeah. That’s how tight it is. Yeah. That’s how tight it is. So, you started off as a peer recovery coach, right? That’s what you That’s I started off as CCA, but you did the peer recovery coach through Sparks, right? Yeah. Yeah. You got that PhD training immediately. Yeah. Yeah. It’s next level. I did with her immediately. What year did you do that? Um, I did that in 22. Okay. After I started working here. Uhhuh. I um got with her and did the peer recovery coach. Okay. And then with us, you went from CCA to peer recovery coach. Peer recovery coach. And I don’t know when we opened the PHP program, that’s when um I became um I was able to use my peer recovery coach skills. What did what is your what do we call you now? I am still peer recovery coach. That’s [  ] I’ll tell you that right now. She’s like director of some guarantee. But I work you know for outpatient. Yeah. Um but I’m over there and I’m with residential outpatient with everybody. Yeah. You’re kind of like an outpatient director kind of situation, you know, as it continues to grow because we got real small for a little bit. Yeah. You know, and y’all have been doing a great job um with growing that program back up. It’s been phenomenal. It’s been beautiful, man. They figured out that they really didn’t need no director cuz we was getting it done, right? Cuz she was looking right in front. She was sitting right in front. We was doing it. We was doing it, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing. It’s beautiful. I remember it. I remember when I got my first key in recovery. They gave me a key. I don’t give a [  ] what the key was for. It could have been a massive lock on a tin shed over in the alleyway. You know what I mean? I got had a key. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know who’s got the most keys out of anyone in our entire this Miss P. Every time I see her, she’s like, “You need a key to this. You need a key to this.” I have a bowl and it’s just everything in there is from Miss Pat and they’re all keys. But you got to get indoors. You’re like this one’s for this one and this one. I was over at the house the other day doing the appraisal thing and I’m like what’s the code for this? Every door had a different man. You’re responsible for a lot. I care. Mhm. And um this is my this is my life. Mhm. This is my family
and I’m going to continue to do what I’m supposed to do. What good am I if I can’t guide or tell people what they want to know or what they need? I’m supposed to know where it is. I think everybody should know where it is. You know what I mean? cuz you have people that’s got so much going on till they don’t have time to think about that. Mhm. You know. Yeah. It’s even it’s even bigger than that for me. It I was thinking about it this morning actually when I was on my run and I’ve been sitting in I I always for whatever reason it’s just been built into me but I always try and sit in gratitude but lately I’ve been sitting in a lot of gratitude. Mhm. It’s a lot of gratitude um as a business owner, as a person, as a husband, as a father, as a friend. And um I’ve talked about on Finding Peaks, but I usually go around, but like business got really, really, really, really hard because it got complex because we opened a real estate company and we started doing real estate and treatment. And I’m grateful to be sitting with Miss Pat today, but if I went back and did it all over again, I probably wouldn’t have done it. if I knew the pandemic was coming and inflation all these things. So things were really really bad, right? And you like you talk a lot about inspiring our guests which you do in in our team’s leadership and otherwise. You do a really great job of that. Um but last May, you know, I came back as the CEO and I was scared to death, man. I didn’t know like I’d go in on a daily basis and make y’all believe like this was going to be successful. And I knew damn right damn well that that there was a higher likelihood that it was going to be unsuccessful every single day. And that was kind of my cross to bear what I started. But it what made it more bearable and what made it on days when it was really difficult just a little bit better was the way that you would look at me when I walk in cuz you didn’t have to say anything. You would look at me and be like, “You got you got this. Like you’re going to do this.” And I’d have all these doubts, man. It was people like you who looked at people like me and had such an impact on the way that I was able to put one foot in front of the other. And it was people like you that inspired this thing that I used to do. I used to look when I come around the corner and be like, “Look at this tile. It’s heron bone tiled. I really know that cuz Cassidy says it is.” Okay. Right. And um I appreciate that about you and I appreciate that belief. Um cuz it’s inspired this moment where we get to sit now and we get to have a lot of gratitude for what you and I and a multitude of other people have been able to build, sustain, and create over the last 12 months. And we made the impossible possible and now we’re here. You know, I don’t know if you know, but I believe in you. I know you do. You’re one of them ones. I’ll take you anywhere and know that we going to be all right. Yeah, just your personality, everything about you. I mean, I’ll take you anywhere with me. And I tell any of them, it’s like, you know, it’s not because you’re the owner or you’re my boss. It’s not that. It’s you
and I just want to let you know that. Yeah. You inspire me as well. Thank you, my friend. And that’s real. Yeah, I know it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cassidy wish she could be here today with us. Yeah. I wish she could have. Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing, man. I was just chatting with her. I was just chatting with her last night. She’s like, “Man, we need to go out to dinner with them.” I was like, “Let’s do it.” Yeah. Let’s go. We have to. Yeah. But um this I have a purpose.
You remember what? This is my purpose. what it felt like what it feels like or what it felt like when that came alive for the first time. Oh, I’ll never forget it. Okay. I was right next door to this building in that house right there. Really? Yeah. And I came in and they were like, “Okay, you got Kipoo on your phone. That’s how you do this and this is how you do that.” And I was like, “I don’t even know how to answer my phone half the damn time.” What is these people talking about? So I walk in there, we leave Leah. Mhm. She leaves. The girl that’s supposed to train me, she was there for an hour and then she decided she wanted to leave and I’m by myself. Figure this thing out here. Mhm. walked around that house, asked everybody their names, and what can I do for them? How can I support them? Went home, got up that next morning, and walked in that door. Didn’t have no damn clue what I was going to do or how I was going to do it, but I felt like I’ve never felt before in my life. Hm. Because it it’s people like you and it’s people that have come before us that remind us the very simple tool of like if you can be with the people like if you can be authentic with the people but it really takes like stripping down you got to get rid of this some [  ] about how I look and how people are going to think you’re going to you know you got your shoe untie and I used to always be like that too. I’d be like we’re walking in now so [  ] all the [  ] dude. But like there was something that happened the people need in this this authentic thing. And I remember doing the big 12step thing and I’m just like hitting people. All I had was this baseball bat. So everybody’s a baseball [  ] [ __ ] We’re just doing home runs. And it’s like some people are cool then. Some people really appreciate it. But like most humans get down with just are are you are you being real with me? Are you being authentic with me? Cuz if that’s your real goofy ass self, like let me see it, right? you know, and so, um, that’s something really special that we we get to do at Peaks. I was we were touring that, uh, program yesterday, and I just gave that talk at the Colorado Champions called the five fingers of the glove. Did you know that? At a PowerPoint and everything. They made a PowerPoint for me. What? Yeah, I didn’t even Yeah, it was cool. Well, yeah. And it was the integration of substance use and mental health treatment. Here I am.
What do I know? You know what I mean? I know some people that know some [  ] for sure. Some real badass clinicians. They’re all around me. I’ve learned a little bit. But people thought that I was going to get up and I was going to talk there. I said, “You all think I’m going to come up and be like CBD and the modality and dialectical behavioral therapy. We want to transcend the model of clinical behavioral studies.” You know, it’s like, “No, no, no. I don’t need that [  ] We’re here.” like somebody does that, not me. I could take you anywhere.
So I’m like I told them all, right? I said I I probably didn’t mention your name. I got it recorded. I said it’s this thing that happens, man. You come in. People are making the most courageous decision of their lives. Takes one to no one. Right. Right. We understand that. We’ve inherited that. And and and then there’s all this [  ] we got to get done. And I need the Fitbit and the assessment and the consent to treat and psyche vow and this vow and the BMI and the T all this stuff. We got to have it all. Got but like there’s this real simple spot like where the juice is at and nobody’s squeezing it, you know? And it’s this human thing that you all do up there that like actually is a standard now that like we’re just going to be with people and then we’re going to get all the other [  ] done pretty quickly. Yeah. But the idea is we’re going to build trust. And that’s what I said in the talk. I said I got people up front like Miss Pat that like everybody calm down. Like we got a human in front of us. Got to is the h you know and then people in our field are like all right well let’s go get over and it’s like no man the human might be thirsty. You know what I mean? Like simple [  ] Yeah. It’s like when they go back to nursing it’s like are you hungry? I don’t like paperwork either. you know, like and you foster that because it’s you build trust with somebody um you see somebody, right? Cuz I remember when it happened to me when somebody saw I was like, you know, like you think you I have value. You really think so? All right, I’ll [  ] with you. You know, we we can hang out then. Cool. Then it’s like we’re off to the races, you know, when we’re walking together. And I think that’s the most powerful thing that we can do in recovery and as humans is is these people that get to show up and have this special thing with people on day one of courage. People come in that door. There’s a lot of them. They come in and you could just Well, for me, I could just see it and feel it that all they want is a hug from a stranger. Mhm. You know, that’s really powerful to me. Yeah,
man. They walk in the door and this, “Can I hug you?” Mhm. And but it’s kind when they know it. Mhm. And they know that everything that comes from me is genuine. They know it. Mhm. There’s no other way for it. And that’s from everybody that’s in peace or you ain’t getting that hug. Everybody. Yeah.
That’s where that’s that’s just what it’s about. Yeah. Everybody really has, to your point, everybody has their own unique way of showing the same thing we’re all talking about right now. You know what I mean? Everybody in there. like it’s uh it you know I’m loud and I make scenes and some people real quiet in the background just but they’re absolutely necessary y you know in value like coup man like he’s one of the people like you know you ever you ever heard anybody not say a nice thing about coup I mean everybody like coup because he’s everywhere man he’s a people’s like the human he’s a people’s champ he is yeah we don’t remember we going to have to bring him on the podcast I was talking about it the other Yeah, man. Bring him on. Go. They should. I know. Yeah. He’s on the ones and twos, man. We got a lot of people like that, man. A lot of architects in the back ensuring that the foundation is strong, you know. And what’s cool about it today, I think, for the most part, and I think it’s probably different than any other time in the 12 year history of Peaks Recovery. Mhm. Is I think most people know they’re valued in what they’re doing. and what they’re doing is extremely important, you know, and I think it’s been a shift over time going from like, you know, we we lost money for 3 years, so everything was very like can’t do anything. We can’t, you know, and and and it’s been cool over the last handful of months to be able to kind of open up and really begin to appreciate the team in a way and and value them in a way. You could tell the the ones that um don’t feel that way, they don’t last. Yeah, for sure. Because it But it ain’t got nothing to do with peace. It’s got something to do with them. Mhm. Yeah. You know, because if you know, and I tell people that come through their um all the time at their interviews, if you don’t got it to give Yeah. Ain’t the place for you. And it’s it’s not you. Yeah. You know, you got to you got to have that love. You got to have that love. You got to be kind. Yeah. And you can, you know, and you can tell Well, you could tell when people are are genuine. And people that’s not kind out there a person that’s in here can feel that you’re just doing this cuz you have to because I’m here. That’s not a part of you. Mhm. Yeah. And that that’s that that’s a lot. Mhm. That means a lot. Yeah. If you can’t do it outside of there, you can’t do it in here. It’s all fake. Yeah. And I see right through it. Yeah. You know, and that’s just like we said, Yeah. And there’s no way to quantify that on the Indeed post, you know? It’s got to be a part of you to be able to do it for it to be real, for it to even look real. You know what I mean? Yeah. the person don’t feel you, then that’s just what it is. That’s so funny you say that. And I can say that because I’ve been there the majority of my life on that other side. Mhm. But now I’m on this side. Mhm. You know what I mean? Mhm. Where it’s both. Yeah. That’s so funny you say cuz I, you know, over the last year, I mean, if we got 70 employees, you know, we’ve onboarded and oriented 40 of those people. Yeah. For sure. How many was it when I first started? It was over a hundred, wasn’t it? We had in 2020. It was more. We had 123 employees than guest. Oh, by 70. Like, man. Yeah. It was wild. We’re out there doing it, man. You got to have a business plan. You got to have a plan. If you don’t have a plan, man, you get shot down. But you know what I do miss from when I first started? What I do miss is everybody knew everybody. Mhm.
And you made that happen. Well, leadership where everybody knew everybody. We don’t get I remember when I started working it was like welcome Patricia, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Now when people come, I don’t see it. And I I miss that. It’s that off-site HR. I miss that so much. Yeah.
We all knew one another. Mhm. Even as big as it was. Even as big as it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where people stopped and and would introduce this, “Hey, what’s your name?” Mhm. How you doing? You know, now we have sometimes, you know, you have people they just walk right by you. Well, they don’t walk by me cuz I I be like, “Hey, they don’t walk by me either.” Yeah. Yeah. this way you are too. Hey. Yeah. What did you just do? You know, but it’s just Yeah. The difference now is we’re operating a business and this real special familyowned situation we got going on. You know what I mean? And some people, you know, can be a part of the business and and some people feel a part of the other side. And that’s okay. But I think there’s a certain energy when you’re doing what’s best for the business that you’re always going to have. I think both. Yeah. A little bit of both, you know. And I think it’s valuable. It’s valuable, too. But it’s funny like the onboarding orientation thing. I’ll be sitting with people and I was like, “Yeah.” He’s usually like, “Yeah, you got to do this thing.” It’s like, “You got to care care.” And they’re like, “What?” I was like, “You’ll see.” But either you figure it out or you’re going to be really tired. You be all tired. And I know why you’re so tired. You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s so funny, man. It’s so good. I just I just want to thank you for the opportunity. Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for the trust and the belief all these years. I believe in you. Yeah. Tell them quick. I don’t I don’t care what y’all talking about. I ain’t going nowhere. Yeah. Bye. Bye. I even told my wife, “Bye.” They’re all bye. That’s funny, man. Not going anywhere. No, it’s uh until it’s You say I got to go. Yeah. It’s just It’s this thing like um
when we’re operating in love and listen, man, I spent a lot of my life not operating in love and understanding what that is and that ecosystem of people um that have the opportunity to be within that. But I think when you’re operating in an ecosystem of love and authenticity in this human environment with people having this human experience, man, you’re real hard real hard to eliminate. You know, you’re real hard to to get gone. And in fact, I think it’s impossible. You know, I think love carries on. And I used to say things like, well, I didn’t I didn’t think, man, we’re doing a really good thing. Like, we should be successful. And that doesn’t always happen in business. doesn’t mean just cuz you have great apple pies that like doesn’t mean they’re going to sell. Don’t mean they’re going to sell, man. It’s like what’s the marketing look like? What’s the underpinning look like? You know, how does it work? Um, but I think ultimately with with Peaks Recovery in and the way that we get to show up today, um, I think there is some uniqueness because of the level of intimacy that we can walk through, because of the amount of people that we have and the amount of team members we have in order to serve them. I can’t believe we’re like the smallest thing in southern Colorado. We got 44 beds. Small. Small. It’s beautiful. You know, this is love. Yeah. Yeah. That make your cheeks hurt you smiling so big, right? I know, right? Oh, man. I’ve been there, too. It hurts. Yeah. It’s good, man. My favorite basketball coach and I believe this. That’s why I like running. But Jimmy Valvano won the national championship. He was like a six. Anyway, shouldn’t have won it. He had a heart of gold, man. And he went up and he went up. He was he died two months later of cancer. He formed the Jimmy Valv Foundation for Cancer Research. It’s raised more money for cancer research than any other foundation out there. So, he walks up there, man. He’s got tumors all over his body. And he he’s like he’s like a real like spirited Italian guy. And he’s like, I just think you should you should do these things every day. I think you should you should You should be moved to tears every day. You should you should have so much emotion that you’re moved to tears. You should laugh every day. You should celebrate every day. Like be with people like do these things. And I think and he goes, I think if you do that, it’ll be a good day. Yeah. It’ll be a good day. Yeah. That’s what I’m about. He’s like, I’m going feel a little bit of anger, too. You know, that just move through it all. I’m grateful to be here with you today. I am grateful to be on this earth and so humbled the opportunity that we have to be within the 24 hours that we’re in today. And uh I look forward to marching with you one day at a time and doing this thing like that I guess we call work.
Work work. Yeah. I was like I couldn’t believe it, man. I get a paycheck now. And I was telling people for what, you know, like I’m just doing what I love. And sometimes I got this busy work that happens like I was on this integration thing and like I got to do some CEO stuff and I’m there for it. Mhm. But otherwise, like I just want my heartbeat to be felt throughout that mother effort. I had when I when we were over here at the house, I had a a guest. her name was was um my I’ll never forget her um we were riding and she’s like you know I really love the kind of work that that you guys do that you do. She was like well but what course did you take you know to be able to work in this field and do what you do. I said girl my life. She said your life. I said yes ma’am. Yes ma’am. my life experiences. Yeah. What’ she say? She’s like, “No way. I want that. I want to do that course.” I was like, “You don’t want to do my life.” Yeah. Do the course. Take your life. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want life. I don’t I don’t I don’t want no one to have to go through that do this part. Yeah. But Yeah. It’s it’s just so good to um see them when they walk in. Mhm. Some of them have broken and don’t even know whether they’re coming or going. Chris M. And then 45 days later, they’re like, “What do I need to do to stay?” Yeah. Helping you with tours? I I don’t want to go. Yeah. I’ve never felt so safe. Mhm. You know, trying to run out the door when they first was there and now they want to go hide in the closet so they don’t have to go and it’s just Oh, man. It’s priceless. Yeah. And we get to be there. It’s priceless. Yeah. And we don’t have to do treatment. We can just do life one day at a time. And I think when you look at it like that, it’s like it’s not it’s not work. like this is this is it is it’s profound. Yeah. It’s like like people are coming in and they’re doing a thing that’s like and we’re there. Yeah. The treatment I went through it was um in DOC. Mhm. And it’s TC therapeutic community. Yeah. you know, and and I’ve shared with a few people that
this treatment is love. That treatment, all they did was bring us down deeper. Mhm. You know, added on to the shame and the guilt. Mhm. Cuz that’s all you heard about is what you did,
you know? Mhm. And it’s just like half the people who had to go through that and then be on this side and see this treatment.
That’s wild. Can you imagine how many addicts that’s out there that don’t know? Cuz like for me, if id have had a peaks Yeah. back then, I wouldn’t have been in my addiction as long. And I know it because walking through peaks. You understand, you know, people there, they understand. They know what it’s like to be there. They know what we need, you know. Mhm. It’s hard to find in a lot of places. Yeah. I was actually talking about it yesterday. I was talking to a clinical director of a program, a good program, an outpatient program in Denver, and she’s like, “Well, this is how you got to care, and this is it.” And I said, “It’s I get it, man. Like, I agree. Like, what we’re doing needs to be done, but this isn’t touching 98% of the population,
like at all. At all.” And then, and that makes me sad. Right? Because that’s that’s what we’re talking about here is like you didn’t know. You thought you had to go through something because you deserved a therapeutic community, you know, with all the [ __ ] I did. And that’s what they make you believe, too, right? It’s like, no, man. This is just what you got, what you’ve always been, you know, like right here. Instead, like, and I used to say, and I didn’t go through a therapeutic community. I didn’t hear about him until I moved to Colorado. Um, but I used to say things like, “Well, I needed that.” I think what I needed was a hug and some love. And I eventually found that, but it took me a lot of years. Yeah. Don’t know it if you don’t know it. Yeah. And so that’s that’s my shtick with it’s not about the program or the resource in the community. It’s just um I want to aim, especially in my verbiage, in my conversation, to dismiss the shame um that for some reason has been a part of this recovery process for so many years. We we we don’t need that. And in fact, it’s not sustainable. That’s why they open extended care treatment 20 25 years ago in Florida. It’s like people in Alcoholics Anonymous, people with long-term recovery 15, 20 years are blowing their heads off. They’re not getting drunk. They’re dying sober.
You know, my name’s Chris Burns, your name is Patricia, and like there’s a lot more going on in your life today than alcoholism. Yeah. And I’m grateful to to let the people know that, you know, thanks. And I’m grateful to be more addicted today to the life that we get to experience, you know? It’s like cool. Like I want to I want to wake up tomorrow, you know, as I’m trying to be like how do I live to 140? Like I’m digging this [ __ ] right? They said I was talking to No, I wasn’t talking. I was listening to a podcast. They said, “If you’re alive in 8 years, you should be able to live to 120 cuz that’s going to be the advancements.” I was telling my boys this morning. What? Watch this. Ready? I tell my boys this morning, I said, “This place is going to blow up. This earth is really on fire here, but eventually, but not I’m going to be gone before it does.” Um, but I’m going to make sure I got him a reservation on the new Earth. Have you heard about the new the new planets? You haven’t heard about the new planets? Cool. What are they called? They’re called super planets. No, they’re super super Earth. Super Earth. Is that Super Earth? Oh, super Earth. Yeah, they’re super Earths, right? Aren’t they super Earth? Yeah, Super Earth. So, these Super Earth, they’re way off in the distance, right? But Elon Musk is trying to like get these things to like go to these super earths and they’re going to cultivate them. But they got like here, man, they got gravity and stuff. They’re way far away. It take a long time to get there. Like and I don’t know how long coup would know, but like I’m sure it’s like like days. It could be like I don’t know like 30 days to get the new earth. But when this environmentally if this place goes you want to have a reservation on the new So I told my boys today before I left, I said they’re like, “You got to work today?” I’m like, “You think I don’t work cuz it snows? I’m trying to get you a reservation on New Earth, you know, and that’s going to be expensive.” You and Judy are going to want to look into that, too. You don’t want to miss your You’re going to need a plane ticket to get over there. And then this is not a conspiracy theory show or anything like that. I just heard a podcast. New Earth, look them up. They’re crazy, man. I had no idea. I’m going to have Cool Cooper help me look it up. Well, you know how to do Keeper now. That’s cool. More than keeping. What is you talking about, man? Well, thanks for have this. I I never thought that I would be sitting here with you doing a podcast. And we’re a lot of people watch this. I watch them, but I never see myself sitting here. Oh, and C, thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you for all you do. Yeah. Looking forward to rocking it with you. You going to have to put me up. Let’s keep it moving. Yeah, me too. Yep. I’m here till the wheels fall off, buddy. Let’s do it. Or we get some new cool ones on. Yeah, let’s do that. Yeah, I love you. I appreciate you, my friend. I love you, too. All right, we’ll get back to it. And I mean that. I know you do, my beautiful people. Until next time, check us out podcast. We usually got pikes off to the left. We got the snow today. What a beautiful day to be alive and a blessed day to serve others. Until next time. Peace.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Michael Solley, combat veteran and Peaks Recovery Centers’ new Military Liaison, to explore the lasting impact of military service, leadership, and shared suffering. Mike reflects on his journey through the armed services, the brotherhood formed through adversity, and the challenges veterans face when transitioning back into everyday life. Together, they discuss community, purpose, giving back, and how Peaks Recovery Centers can better support veterans and active service members on their recovery journeys.

You know, I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments, seen a lot of, you know, death and destruction, I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. Your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. peaks uh in the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the army’s going with um you know like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution right
hey everybody and welcome to another episode of finding peaks we’re at likeund and something getting close to 200 actually but uh I I am really excited today to be joined by my good friend, colleague, um, Army veteran, a good friend of mine, new and newly integrated into Peaks Recovery, military liaison, Michael Sullley. Grateful to have you on the show, sir. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, man. I met Mike in jiu-jitsu about four years ago. Our kids fight together and kind of do this stuff. and had a meeting with him a couple months ago and we were on the precipice as I’ve talked about on the show of really starting to have a big integrated community integration and a larger footprint for not only our service members um our active service members but their families and their children and so Mike’s playing a huge role and already began to play a huge role in integrating us down there before Carson and um what makes you Mike what makes you so excited about kind of this uh this new path forward for you um professional Well, I think uh kind of for me it’s it’s a little novel. It’s new. It’s not really a space that I’m used to really working in. So, dealing with uh substance use disorder and mental health. Um, but you know, there’s kind of like the I guess an understanding of like what the problems are um when you’re an active duty service member and you’ve got, you know, you’re toggling a career and a family and, you know, whatever baggage you brought with you from the civilian world into, uh, you know, your home life in the army. And so, um, I just feel like it’s an opportunity, um, to kind of be a member of a team with you guys, um, that is really fulfilling for me and also help some people that can, you know, really use the help and maybe, uh, don’t have, uh, coping mechanisms that are going to be useful to them in the future or just useful to them in the present. um dealing with the day-to-day life of being in the military and as dynamic as the world is right now, it would be helpful to have some some coping mechanisms for sure. So, it’s just an opportunity to give back, I think, a little bit. Mhm. Yeah, I could tell. It’s interesting. Mike and I’s relationship came together. I really had no idea what he did. He had no idea what we did, but for some reason, we found ourselves in the same rooms together, whether it was Albuquerque last year or, you know, the meeting this year. And I think there’s just something about um some connectedness from a human perspective. And I think it goes back to like, you know, childhood. I think it has to go with growing up. I think it has to do with development and developmental stages when people were there and when they weren’t there. And um I think your experience, not only developmentally, but professionally um in the army aims to serve that when you have a great person your right and a great person your left, you can do really cool things. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, yeah. I think kind of us getting to this point is kind of been like the story of my life a little bit. You know, I’ve always kind of was like, who who do I need to hitch my wagon to, right? Who do I need to surround myself with? Um, and and when things were going really good for me, I hitched my wagon to the right people and kind of like, you know, surrounded people or surrounded myself with people that I knew were going to help me get to the future that I wanted, you know, or whether it was to be a good husband or to be a good father or to be um, you know, good at my job or just, you know, to be a good team player or just to be a good friend, you know. So, um I I’ve always kind of been on the lookout for that and I we’ve had conversations in the past like, you know, Chris, like I’d like to sit down and talk to you a little bit more, you know, and I I think that um I’ve always just kind of been aware of like who’s around me and like what’s my impression of like what are they about, you know? So, um that people relationship kind of thing has kind of always been something I’m attracted to, you know. And not only that, but something you’ve had to like develop. Like you talk about the leadership style in the army and how you’ve brought guys through and some of it’s like super compelling and interesting to me because it’s not it’s a really dynamic leadership style that clearly works in one of the largest companies in the entire world. And so what was it about and I think this will kind of draw into the passion where we sit today, but what was it about being a young man in the military that you felt like was going to be a good fit for you? And maybe you can take the viewers through, you know, what that young journey was like. Yeah. So, um born and raised in Houston, Texas, you know, um had a
lot of different experiences in my childhood. Some really, really bad, some really, really good. Um but always was kind of looking for that, I guess, father figure or or just that archetype of like what is a man, right? And so my dad was kind of like, you know, my biological father was um very troubled, had a lot of issues, a lot of substance abuse, a lot of uh there was some domestic violence and you know, just not a stable home life. Um and then my mom and dad separated and she met my uh stepfather, great guy, um but not like very forthcoming with his emotions, you know, told us he was proud of us, told us he loved us. Um but there was no hugs. there was no like, “Hey, let me sit you down and and put you on some game right now because you’re going to need this in the future.” Um because I just don’t know if he ever felt like that was his place. And so here I am, you know, fast forward to 2002. Um and I’m this troubled kid who’s like doing drugs and kind of don’t really know what I’m doing with my life. And 9/11 happens as a senior in high school. Um, and I’m kind of going through I’d moved out of my house and um was working and um still in school by the grace of God, you know, and then um the army recruiter called me one day out of the blue in like April. We had just invaded Afghanistan and he was like, “Hey, you ever thought about joining the army?” And I was like, “No, but I’m thinking about it now.” Um, and uh, I kind of just from that phone call, um, decided I was going to finish school, work that summer, and this is what I was going to do. Um, I always kind of felt like I was pulled to go do go somewhere and do something. Um, cuz I just knew that there was more to life than kind of what I was doing. And, uh, yeah, went went to basic training in August of 2002. um and found myself in Iraq not short not very long after that, you know. So, um but as far as your question goes, um I think that uh you know, as a young man in the military, I was really looking for like what is a man? Well, now you’re around all of these men and they come from all these different places, which I was not thinking about. M and I see like the ones that are like doing really good and they’ve got all of these schools and they’ve been to all these places and they’ve jumped out of planes and you know um it was always just like I want to do that. I want to do that. I want it was like fear of missing out like if I didn’t do it I was going to miss out on something some great opportunity even though I didn’t know what it was. Um but I think just a yearning to like know more. I was always kind of inquisitive and curious about people who did hard things. You know, I think that that’s a really sometimes undervalued and just your day-to-day dealings with people and walking through life. It’s like I always placed a really high importance on people who did like hard things like, “Oh man, that looks hard. That that is like really like how do how do you do that?” And then you realize it’s like an elephant that you have to eat. you just eat it one bite at a time and it, you know, sucks really hard and then you like you get used to that. You get inoculated to that. And so I think that’s kind of what it was just a a little bit of adventure seeking, you know, and then also kind of like wanting to see what’s out there, you know. So yeah, makes sense. And then and I’m sure every season as you progress through, you know, 22 23 year career is a new baseline. Yeah. And a new threshold of like what is actually possible, right? because the stories you’ve explained to me and I think that’s really what something really really cool that the army um and the armed forces can cultivate for you if you go in there is is like they can help this rapid growth and development process and they can create possibility where there’s impossibility and new foundations where it was I couldn’t even dream that big you know yeah I think um the cool thing at least my experience in the army is like people have done the math before you you know and it’s Yeah, there’s not always like these cookie cutter solutions to all of your problems, but there’s a lot of them, you know, and it’s like if you don’t have like a set of values or a set of beliefs or a leadership style or a set of principles to doing anything, somebody before you sat down, you know, a lot of them really smart guys and like did that homework and they were like, “Hey, man, these are the things that like make people tick, right? You’re going to get to a point in the army where you’re the one having to figure out what makes people tick and you’re the one that’s having to like show them that inspired leadership and you’re the going to be the one that has to figure out how to get these people to do this thing that they wouldn’t do on their own and then like get them to do it and do it well, you know? So, I think that that’s um super like it was just always very interesting to me that somebody sat down and like really broke down the kind of the human psyche at least for like a soldier. I was like, “Hey, we’ve we’ve done all this. We’ve experienced this. This is what worked for us and this is what didn’t.” Now, times change and, you know, people change and um you kind of got to figure out like, you know, what the leadership is for that season, like what your style is. But um you know, I think a lot of really good leadership, if you went and talked to those people like where’d you get your leadership style, they can probably point back to like the people that they saw do it really well and the people that they saw do it not very well. So I I would like to, you know, just give credit to all those great leaders before me that I would had the pleasure to serve with. Uh and all of it was just imitation, you know.
I love it though. Where did you know in your military career that you were going to move into like this more leadership role? When did you know like, hey, this is going to be a little this isn’t seasonal. It happens pretty fast, man. You know, like uh I was a young 19-year-old kid in torid Iraq. Um, and man, the world simplifies when you go to war, you know. Um, and uh, you know, you got to just make sure your weapon’s clean, make sure you’re right place, right time, right uniform, radios are working, trucks fill up with fuel, you know, I got all the stuff I need to to do our mission. And then, you know, at least my experience in the army is like your leadership potential is kind of based off of a lot of your potential to be a good subordinate. you know, like I was I I know I always look for that as a leader, it’s like, man, this guy just takes care of his business and he doesn’t have to be told to do a lot of things. Of course, you have to be taught to do these things, but once you’re taught, um, are you taking that like disciplined initiative to go out and do whatever it was you needed to do to make sure that we could go and, you know, fight the the nation’s enemies, you know. So, um, I think it happened pretty quick. Uh after that first deployment, um we came back, you know, 12-month deployment. Was there pretty much all of 2004. Um they were like, “Hey, you’re going to the sergeant board. We want you you have to study and go stand in front of all these first sergeants and the sergeant major.” And they kind of just drill you on all these questions. And it’s like, “Okay, well, you did what you had to do as a soldier. Now you’ve demonstrated that you are willing to like sit down and study regulation and all this stuff.” um and that you you want to be that you want to go to the next level to be a leader. So, you know, as a sergeant, you know. So, I think I I think I was a sergeant by the time I was 20 21 maybe, you know. So, um yeah, not very long. I was like in charge of a squad, you know, as like a 21 year old kid, you know. Yeah. People are juniors in college. Yeah. Out there. It’s like, all right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, I didn’t think nothing of it. I thought that’s just how it is. You know, that’s I I knew that like this is what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to grow. You’re supposed to like learn how to do new things and then there’s going to be people coming in after you and you have to impart your your knowledge on them. It was never not ever something that I ever really questioned. Did you deploy twice before you were a sergeant? No, I deployed one time before I was a sergeant and then uh yeah, so um quick rundown of my like uh deployments kind of in that time it was like 2004 went to Torit. Um, I made sergeant like as soon as we got back. Um, and uh, it was a weird time. I I’m sure you remember like the stop loss stuff. So, like people were getting ready to get out of the army before we deployed the first time and they’re like, “Hey, you’re not getting out. You’re staying in. You got to deploy and then you can get out and get out. Then you can get out.” Yeah. Yeah. So, dudes are like thinking that they’re good. They’re going home. I don’t have to deploy. and it’s like, “Hey, you know, actually, I need you to go draw all of your gear again because you’ve already turned it in, but you’re staying.” And so, we went and did that deployment, come back. And uh everybody left. It was like this mass exodus. We had like a platoon of like 40some guys. It went down to seven people. And then all these new people started coming in and none of them had been anywhere. They were all like almost all brand new privates. It was like the ones that were seniors cuz I graduated 04. It was Mike people that were coming in. Yeah. So like um and nobody ever came to like take my job. Like a guy that was senior to me, a staff sergeant. So it was like, “Hey, uh Sie, Sergeant Sie, 20-year-old Sergeant Sie, you’re in charge of this these seven guys.” And then fast forward to 2006, a year and a half later, they’re like, “Oh yeah, still nobody’s came to to take my job. You’re going to take these seven dudes or eight dudes to war again in Baghdad, you know, during the surge.” So, um, talk about, uh, yeah, I had to be full of piss and vinegar like just to figure out how to do all that. And what kind of bond you building with those seven, eight guys? Like, it’s got to be I mean, we were tight. Um, so all of all of those guys, there was just a few of us. Uh, one, uh, really good friend of mine, uh, named Joe. He he was kind of like the senior of us but just barely, you know. He had he went to Kosobo and I didn’t go on that deployment because I wasn’t there yet. So like he had that one thing on me. 22. Yeah. He was like 20. He was maybe a year and a half older than me, you know, and we’re like we’re the senior dudes, you know. So but hey, you know that we were great because we were in our own minds hard as woodpecker lips and nobody could tell us different. Yeah. So it takes a little bit of that, man. For sure. Wow. So by the time you’re essentially most kids are getting their bachelor’s degree, you’re on your second deployment. Yeah, I’m on my second deployment and you know kicking indoors every night for 15 months and in Baghdad, Iraq, you know. Wow. So it was uh yeah, it was it definitely um lets you know what you’re made of pretty quickly, you know. Sebastian Junger, I was trying to think of it. Do you know it’s Sebastian Junger, right, Cove? Yes, sir. Okay. Sebastian Junger we had on the podcast. He’s an author. He’s not a military member. But he was interested on why people thrive in wartime settings and why they merely if they’re doing well survive when they get back. And so what he did is very invested in this project. He went and sat in the foxholes in Afghanistan with these like people like you guys with your seven people. Yeah. And he wrote about it and his book’s short and I read it and it’s what they because like I I think like the precipice like the pinnacle of the human experience is being seen, valued, and heard is what connects you in community, right? And I got to imagine what he said was like in those foxholes with those people, the person you’re right in your you don’t experience a deeper level of connection. You can’t. Yeah. I don’t think so. Like how would you, right? Yeah. I mean, you it’s like it’s like being married, right? You if you’re married for any like long duration of time, you see everything about that person. You see what you love about them. You see what you like about them. You see what you hate about them. You see what you don’t like about them, but you can tolerate, right? So, like, you know, you’re just you spend so much time with these guys and like number one, like you want to be successful, you want to do your job well, right? Um, but you also have these people that you’re like responsible for almost every aspect of their life. I need to make sure that they’re they’re fed, that they can do hygiene, that they can, you know, do all the maintenance on their equipment that they need to be. are they talking to their family, you know, are they getting the sleep that they needed to get, you know, and so, um, I didn’t know all of that stuff as a 22-year-old sergeant, you know, but I I knew I was lucky enough to have a really good platoon sergeant, platoon leader, and I was lucky enough to have just some good guys with me. Um, and we all kind of figured it out together. they probably figured it out and then told me what to do, you know, but but uh you know, like and then at the end of the day, like you don’t want to be sending people home in caskets, you know, that’s that’s heavy. Yeah. Um and it’s especially heavy when you’re very immature and you’re young, you know. Um, but it wasn’t something that was lost on us very quickly because uh especially that second deployment, we lost a lot of guys um in that unit. And um you know, we just we didn’t you didn’t want to be the one to mess it up. You didn’t want to be the bad egg. You didn’t want to be the the piece of crap that’s not pulling his weight. It was always kind of my motivation. It’s like, man, no, you got to do your job because there’s people that depend on you, you know, and so that was uh, you know, that was a very humbling experience even though if I didn’t realize how much at the time it was humbling me. Yeah. Just because of how young you were. Yeah. I had no perspective on anything. Now you look back like, whoa. Yeah. And I I I mean, we show up at peaks, you hear me, I’m like, “Today’s the Super Bowl.” And cuz there’s lives on the line. Yeah. But even more like you know like seriously like if I can’t rely on Peter I could be cuck today right you know and there’s a there’s a level of trust and a depth and a weight to relationship. Yeah. Um which is interesting because it’s you got to read that Sebastian Junger. You’ll love it. Yeah I’ll check it out. It’s good stuff for sure. Yeah. People seem to thrive in in what other people might think to be oh my gosh how do you do it? No way. There’s things I look back on all the time and I’m like, man, how do we pull that off? like, you know, like it’s I’m just amazed at like some of the things that we were capable of doing and and the these young men and and women too, you know, like some of the things that we were able to do, you know, like like how do you how do you get 22 year old 18 to 22 year old kids be like, “Hey, we’re going to go walk over that mountain and and we’ll be back in 3 days.” You know, like Yeah. Like, yeah, bring some water, bro. Yeah. Exactly. We’re going to walk 35 kilometers across this mountain range or this valley in Afghanistan, you know. It’s like I never would have dreamed that that I was even capable of doing that, you know. But literally, we’re going out 3 days on foot. Yeah. Yeah. That’s real. Sleep where we can sleep. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll we’ll go live in a goat pin or something for a day and then we’ll move on to the next one, you know? Yeah. Some people think they like the outdoors, you know? Yeah. Backpacking, dude. My wife always gives me a hard time. She’s like, “You want to go hike?” It’s like I’ve done a lot of hiking. You know what? I’m all hyped out, man. Not all hiked out, but but there I got to be in the mood for it for sure. Tell Tim, man. See, they drop me off, man. They pick me up two days later. Yeah. It’s crazy. I could be walking all over the place. Or they’re like, “Hey, we got to wait for these helicopters to come pick us up. We can’t We’re too far to walk back. We’re like in a very extended range of like artillery with these special rounds that can reach us.” Like, we have no We outstepped our support here. Get back on the line. Yeah, that’s funny, man. What a wild ride. So, both Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah. Yeah. So, I did uh uh I went to uh Iraq twice. Um Iraq started kind of cooling off about 2008. Um and it eventually kind of wrapped up and then went to um RC East in Afghanistan, Gazny. Um kind of doing uh some like making sure that the the main highway through Afghanistan was kind of staying clear. Um, not at that. Everybody likes to blow it up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s it was kind of like the the modus operandi at the of the highway. Yeah. Oh, damn. So, they’ll just put a huge house-sized hole in the middle of it and you’re like, “All right, now you got to figure this out. Get the tractor out of it.” Yeah. So, we would like, you know, do a lot of stuff in the villages around there just kind of trying to keep that secure. And um that was uh wasn’t too bad. And then, uh did that for like I think seven months or so. and then uh went and did some other assignments and kind of Afghanistan cooled off a little bit and then ended up back in Iraq in 2017 in Mosul um fighting ISIS, you know. So um yeah, four you four different combat deployments um mostly uh with uh the first infantry division and the 82nd Airborne Division. Um but you know like I look at the time I hated it but I look back on it I’m like man it was what a time to be alive you know like a lot of hurt but a lot of good too. Um and and it really builds character especially uh as you consider like those deployments like the first one in 2004 I was like living in a Saddam’s palace and then the last one in 2017 I’m like living in this bombed out building you know or like filling sandbags to just kind of keep overhead cover and stay safe you know and like right where everything was happening in Missoul. So um man that’s shifted a little bit here. Yeah for sure. Like what and you’re older and more mature and wise to everything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think uh the the older and more mature and wiser I got, I think the the more scared I got, you know, something about that naivity that’s like Yeah. You know, like if if you how can you be scared of something you don’t know you’re supposed to be scared of it, you know? So, um, one of my big things, and you’ve heard me say it, is, and it’d be interesting if somehow Peaks and the mission can reach this deep, but I’ve always wondered why we don’t roll out the red carpet, especially for folks coming back from war times, you know, like you get off the plane, you get 30 days off, you get a nice spa retreat, some good therapy, some PE, maybe it’s an Ibagane, maybe It’s one of these things that we know are like helping people get through this because one of the saddest things I see like if they if they make it to the chair you’re sitting in all is well that ends well, right? But not a lot of people make it to the chair you’re sitting in. Yeah. I mean I think there’s still a lot of combat vets especially like us Giwa kids. It’s kind of the the the term that’s getting thrown around now. Um there’s still a lot of guys out there that are productive but there’s a lot of guys who are not. And um I I couldn’t tell you why I think people don’t like kind of roll out the red carpet per se for combat bets is like I think there’s still a little bit of a stigma. Um it’s almost like think about Memorial Day, right? You want to tell people like, “Hey, happy Memorial Day.” Like this is we should we should celebrate this day. But how do you celebrate something that’s sad? How do you celebrate something that is has so much grief and loss attached to it? Um, people tell me all the time, “Thank you.” You know, and and they were when we were coming home. Um, but it’s I I don’t really know how to put my thumb on like what it is that that kind of keeps us from um kind of like being like putting those guys on a pedestal. Not that I necessarily think they always should be, but um it’s it’s it’s almost like a dirty little secret like, “Hey, I’m proud of you, but man, like bore sucks, you know, like this is all of this is bad, you know, and and for whatever reason, we’re over there for reasons you agree with or you disagree with, but um and then that at the end of the day, you know, it comes down a lot of times to, you know, dollars too, you know, But there are a lot of people out there who did a lot of great things for their country and did a lot of great things for the people to the left and right of them that are really really really struggling. Right. Yeah. And that’s that’s my thing is it was one of the saddest things to see when I came to Colorado Springs and we weren’t in network with Triare Tri West is that somebody could go work on a military installation and then get Blue Cross Blue Shield Federal cover any treatment program in the United States and here our service members active and otherwise families independents. Yeah. Don’t have a space to call home like that. But and so there’s just such a division there. And so I’m starting to see at least through Triare some little bit more access to care. There’s one program I’ve told you about. It’s been a network with Tryare forever and it’s one of I think one of the greatest programs in the country, right? And it’s uh the Meadows in Wickerberg, Arizona. So, but yeah, I just think you know, you’ve talked about it before. We have a huge investment um in these men and women often times millions of dollars, right? um invested and for good reason. I just wonder if we invested a fraction of that in the afterare or the aftermath, you know. Yeah. I can tell you right now like the military uh and the government doesn’t always do good with like the follow through on things. Like the the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like there’s usually good intentions behind anything at like the the operational level in the army. It’s like, hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to do this thing. We’re going to make sure we take care of you. Mhm. Well, it’s like you get the thing done and then dollars dry up and then you know there’s like you know leadership change or there’s um you know a new party has taken over an office and agendas change quickly, right? And so um yeah, it does. It goes back and forth. I saw it go back and forth a couple of times just in my 22 years. Um but you know it’s I I think um it it’s just really just not the hot plate item, you know. Um, and and that’s really unfortunate cuz there’s a lot of people who probably could still be very productive members of society and take the those leadership lessons that they learned from those mentors to the left and right and all those good people and apply it to their business dealings or their home life or just their dayto-day interactions with people. um and they can’t because they are hung up with substance abuse or they’re hung up with PTSD and just, you know, emotional regulation. So, um it is a fortunate thing that I think happens. Um and it it definitely is something that, you know, we could be doing better as a nation, you know. Yeah. I wonder I’m I’m sure they’re beginning to do more of a costbenefit analysis on it. Yeah. Long term. Yeah. And it could for me it’s almost and I don’t you tell me but like it almost seems like just redefining when the mission’s complete you know some term or another. I think you know I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments seen a lot of you know death and destruction. I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. You know it’s like a monster that lives in your room. He’s not going to do anything to you or if you pay him the correct attention. But the minute you stop paying attention to him and stop feeding him in the way he he needs to be fed to keep him docile and quiet, he shows up. Yep. You know, so Yeah. And what you mean by that is like showing up, doing hard things, getting some sun on your face, doing some jiu-jitsu, lifting some weights, doing things you don’t want to do, moving through uncomfortability, which is that’s the RX, but man, for it’s just really difficult for some people to get there. Getting started and then keeping it going. Once you do, I’m a living testament to that. like if I’m not doing, you know, those hard things or working out or or, you know, you know, challenging myself, whether it’s my mind or my body, I’m not the best version of me. So, um, I’m blessed enough and lucky enough that I realize that, you know, like I understand that there are thing things I have to do for me to be the best version of myself. Mhm. There are so many guys that never got to that point, you know, that like like I did all this stuff in the army and then like I got out and you know the economy was bad when the wars were slowing down, you know, 2009, 10, 11, 12. Um, and then you’re stuck and you’ve developed all these little things that are just hanging off of you. Um, and you don’t have any way to kind of put it away and get on with your life, you know. Yeah. And then then the new baseline becomes really difficult. Yeah. Foundation. Yeah. Because this is the new normal is like just grinning and bearing, you know, every day. And that that’s hard. And that I hate that for people. It’s like you you gave so much of yourself, whether it be physically or mentally. Um, and now you’re just this empty shell and you’re just you have no purpose and you’re not um living a fulfilled life when I think you should if you go to war as a young man, you come back, you know, not a whole lot of reasons better than to like live a fulfilled life and be like, “Hey, I made it through all of that.” Yeah. So, but we lose perspective on that. I know, man. And I really want like when you talk about this, like I almost think, well, insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Yeah. but just like a retreat for like military service members. I also I always think of like uh Cameron Haynes and the work those guys do with Ubermen and the military and just getting they’ll carry a stone up a mountain. Yeah. Sounds crazy, man. But like the bonds that are formed, the um resilience that’s obtained, the connectedness that’s in it’s like it’s spiritual, man. It’s like church. Yeah. Shared suffering, right? Shared suffering is a is a I Yeah, that’s the So good. That’s why you see people that have been, you know, together like married for a long time and they’ve really been through it. They’re just so calm. They’re like, “Yeah, whatever.” Shared suffering is like I don’t think you can be inoculated to get something better than that. But, you know, the trade-off is that like if you’ve done a lot of shared suffering with somebody, you got to continue that community um once you get out of the military. I was, you know, luckily smart enough to realize that like for me that was like jiu-jitsu, you know, like I knew I was like, okay, I had to get out fast. Ended up having to have my neck surgery. Got medically retired. Um, and uh I was like, I’m going to need somebody. I’m going to need some form of dudes around me to like just keep me sane, you know? Um, and he, you know what, it’s still hard to talk to him. It’s still hard to be like, “Hey man, I need help.” Hey man, how are you doing? Yeah, I’m not doing great. Yeah, good, man. Yeah, you know, yeah, it can be tough, man. But then when you do it, it’s uh it’s a very cool thing. And I think even more so I’ I’ve always said like community for me is everything. But going back to Sebastian Junger’s work and your experience, it’s like, man, can I just get like I actually really really need a great person on my right, great person on my left. Yeah. Like it’s actually non-negotiable, especially in from what you’re telling me with combat vets. Like that’s that’s that’s at the very least what is necessary for thriving for somebody who has been through that type of intensity. Yeah, for sure. For sure. That’s basine. Yeah. And you know, it’s like you know the whether it’s you’re doing something hard together or you experience loss together or you do something really good together. Um I think when you’re kind of in the military and you’re deploying and going to war, um the whole time you’re just like I just want some privacy. I want some peace. I want to be away from these dudes. And then you look, you know, fast forward 10 years in the future and you’re not in the military anymore. You’re like, man, I wish I I miss that, you know, like the brotherhood. And and you know, you might not even like all the dudes in your unit, but they’re still there. They’re still doing the same crap you are, you know? Um, and I that’s a really hard thing to find like in civilian society in America is like, hey, these are the boys. The boys ain’t changing. boys ain’t going nowhere, you know? So, um, that’s what I was really that’s why I love this recovery process so much and feel like I was just like extraordinarily blessed and able to turn pain into purpose at like a really young age is like, dude, like I felt like I was fighting for my life. Yeah. I was either going to die in a prison cell or somewhere out in the street doing something stupid, some high-risisk behavior. And then you get these other guys very similar like in a way like we’re going into aa we’re going into this thing as 20 year olds. We’re not going to drink anymore. Yeah. We’re not going to do drugs. We’re going to [  ] do it together. And then we’re going to meet at the gym in the evening and [  ] just turn up the music. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you do this with these people for like 5 6 7 10 14 13. Mhm. and you’re like, I I just feel so grateful that that that actually was the ethos of which recovery has to go through is this connection thing. But as a young kid, if you don’t go to war, if you don’t you’re not fighting for your life for an opiate addiction, like you don’t you don’t see that. Yeah. I think that’s a I that’s a really great segue into kind of like um I think a big thing for military members especially uh guys with combat trauma and stress is like you know we boosted together hard you know when in our off time like we worked hard and we played hard and then like you start looking for that camaraderie and that community again and you’re not in the military anymore and you’re like oh well I used to you know we go party hard with the boys well now you don’t have those same boys those boys don’t have the same experience and then you find yourself partying hard by yourself because that’s the only thing you have left from that, you know, and you’re, you know, a lot of people just can’t really figure that out. It’s like I’m doing all this because I’m looking for a feeling um that I had when I had this community and now I don’t have this community anymore and I’m selfisolating and I’m abusing substances or whatever your vice is, you know. Um and I that that’s I think a real problem. Um I a lot of my friends that I’ve talked to, they’re retired or or ETS in their term of service out of the military. A lot of them went through that, you know. Um I just recently went and saw a bunch of guys. I went to combat with uh not too long ago in February, we um good good friend of mine. He was uh one of my soldiers um passed away on a motorcycle wreck. And I we were just kind of catching up, eating dinner and stuff. They’re like, “Yeah, kind of went off the deep end, went on like a two-year bender, you know, and, you know, kind of just now pulling myself up by the bootstraps.” And it’s like, why do we let it get that far? Like the it’s 2026. I can pick up the phone, call anybody, you know, so a little bit of the onus is on us, too. Um, but it’s it’s a real thing, man. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to explain that feeling of I’ve lost something, but I don’t know what I lost and I don’t know how to communicate it, you know, and it’s it’s companionship. Yep. I think so. I think so, too. I mean, pretty clearly, even just from hanging out with you and the other vets and combat vets have had the opportunity to check in with. And it’s interesting, too, because I’ve been doing this work a long time, and I’m not able to make the impact in that community that you’re able to make. Yeah. And which I think is really, really special. And that’s why I’m so excited. He’s going to go sneak me on to Fort Carson later. Um, but we’re going on Fort Carson here next week, man. We got, you know, we’re sitting down with people and I think you have a real opportunity with the support of Peaks behind you, frankly, with the programs they defi describe that they work with to do something incredibly impactful, not only in Fort Carson, but in Colorado Springs and potentially, you know, the region, the world, make big impacts. Right. Super excited about that, too. Um, you know, I’m just I understand kind of the problems that they have as far as like being a leader in those units down there. And, you know, there’s never enough providers. There’s always too many patients that are coming in. Um, and I think that, uh, Peaks, uh, and the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the Army’s going with, um, you know, like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution, right? The army is always like, “Hey, we’re going to give you the onesizefits solution.” Um, and for a lot of people, what they’re providing on Fort Carson is probably more than enough, right? But there are times when when um maybe there is a wait or maybe there is uh somebody does need some acute care or whatever the case may be. Um and um Fort Carson can’t provide that. I think we can help fill those gaps. Um especially being here in the community. Um, I think that that’s very important. Um, I know that I wish when I retired that I would have been a little more preemptive and preparing myself for dealing with regular civilian life problems. You know, a lot of times the solution, or at least my solution, the army was like, “Hey, just walk in, dominate the room. If you’re in charge, be in charge.” You know, that doesn’t work all the time out here. Out here, you know, like dang, man. Like, bro, who is this guy and who does he think he is? You know? Yeah, for sure. Um, but you know, that’s a real thing. Um, and you know, like people think that you know, you you leave a bad home environment from wherever you are, you know, XYZ USA. And it’s like your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. So, that’s what they say. I was I got sober. I was like, “Well, I think I’m just going to move to Kentucky.” Yeah. And they’re like, “Will you still be looking at yourself in the mirror?” I’m like, “Damn.” Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. If kids were sitting at MAPS in their city and they were like, “Hey, we’re going to You got a lot of childhood trauma.” All these dudes have childhood trauma, too. They’ll be like, “No, I don’t think I want to do that.” But I always say, “We’re not pulling silver spoons out of people’s mouth to put them in the military.” Yeah, for sure. So, like you get you get around up a lot of people like you, a lot of people who grew up like you, a lot of people who have the same problems you had. And then what do you guys do? Y’all do the same thing that y’all were doing when you were, you know, back home. Maybe you’re not doing drugs, but you’re making up for it with the drinking and and partying and staying out late and whatever, you know. So, um I I do think that we can make a lot of uh impact in that community. And, you know, like we need it as a country. We need it. We need healthy people. um doing that job, you know, we can’t afford to have people who are halfcocked, you know, so to say. Yeah. And I love your approach, too, cuz you obviously the active service members is a huge passion of yours, but you know, you have a family. You had kids in the military. Yeah. All of them. Yeah. You know, and so having proper support and good support, like when vets walk in our program, they’re like, “This is really nice.” Like, “Dude, you deserve nothing less.” Yeah. Like, bro, you deserve a nice place to figure out your things, you know? Yeah. And where you can just be you and people are just going to accept you for you. Not what you are, not what your rank says or, you know, what uniform you’re wearing or what silly hat you’re wearing, you know? It’s like just a place where you don’t have to focus on anything but you. Um, and I think that’s important. And and you know, like we always talk about in the army is like the servant leadership. Servant leadership, intrusive leadership. Well, you can go so far down that rabbit hole that you’re not serving yourself like you need to. Um, and then, you know, you you don’t have any people that you need to serve and be their leader anymore and uh your family are not in the army and then you have this giant hole in you where you didn’t take care of yourself. Um, and you didn’t really kind of put the things in order that you needed to to continue your life. Um, and that’s hard, man. It’s and it’s not an easy problem to fix. How do you fix 22 years of doing one thing this thing one way? Yeah. You know, that’s two decades. That’s wild. And to show up there not as a master sergeant. Yeah. But and I’ve only done treatment and been like CEO, president guy. Like nothing on that level where like like But I used to have to go home and be like, “Dude, shut it off.” Like that you’re not a boss. These aren’t your employees. They’re not your boys. Like this your [  ] family. Yeah. And so I’d have to do this breathing thing be like, “Dude, disconnect from whatever you think you’re doing right now cuz they can’t handle this type energy.” Yeah. You know, I bet it’s even harder on your side. Well, that’s what I did. So, I always made sure that I changed clothes before I came home. I would not like wear my uniform home. I wouldn’t just get in the car and drive home. It’s like, okay, I’m taking off the monkey suit. I’m going put it away. Now, Mike’s here. Well, I didn’t have a uniform anymore. And there was this like person in me, you know, where do you put him, you know, and where does he go? And um so it’s it can be very hard to kind of know who you are and and like when I say know who you are, like who is Mike Sullie, you know? Um because you’re as much as I used to say it. I was like, “Oh, the army is not my identity.” Well, yeah. Yeah, bro. It was. You were in the army longer than you were a civilian. Shut up. Yeah, you were. Yeah, you were. Yeah. So, exactly, man. That’s That’s cool. Yeah. Because at 42 I’ve been or at 44 I’ve been sober longer than h longer than half my life. Exactly. But you were in longer than half your life. Yeah. I mean that’s insane. Yeah, it is. It is insane. And you don’t you think it’s not a thing until it is. And and we don’t always get to choose the things in our life that are actually things, you know. So, um I I just really feel like um I’m kind of being drawn towards like this work, you know. I feel like my life is like that a lot of times. a recruiter calls me out of the blue. Um I know you for 4 years. I’m like, you know, was really struggling. I’m like, “Hey, Chris, we should get coffee sometime.” I don’t think we ever did get that coffee, but um and then you’re like, “Hey, we’re talking about doing this thing. I want you to come in and talk.” And it’s like, well, sometimes there’s just some sort of divine intervention, dude. And you know, on that day, I’ve told you like I’m like, “What is this meeting about?” Yeah. Like they’re like Matt and Mike and DC are up front. And like and I was sitting there and I’m like thinking maybe there’s an agenda. DC and Matt don’t schedule meetings where there’s not like [  ] going on. And then it dawns on me like no we’re just doing this thing. And then it dawn I’m like wait a minute Mike’s a new military liaison. I’m like it’s going down baby. I’m like holy [ __ ] You know it’s like perfect timing. If nothing else I can at least speak the language. That’s good. Yeah. I’m really excited to uh not only have that meeting, but really begin to have a community impact for the people that serve this country, their family members, and really have a more dynamic and more of a custom fit approach. Yeah. To active service members and their families. And I think that’s what we’re going to be able to cultivate um through your willingness and and of course the relationships that you already have is like, you know, we want to go in there and really say like not only how can we fill a gap, but like what do you need long term? how can we grow this? How can we make it easier? How can we create better soldiers, family members, um, and the like. So, I’m I’m really excited about the opportunity that we have in front of us. Yeah, I’m I’m super excited. like what I if I could like be king for a day and it’s like I’m going to make this thing happen. It’s like I I feel like there’s so many men out there who serve their country um and women too um that they have all of this potential and lessons learned and like how to like be productive and like be productive with a as a team. um that if we can help these people who have all these lessons learned and we can put them out there in the community, they can have a huge impact on on just the younger generation, you know, and I I would hate to see just all of that knowledge and just wisdom, you know, really it’s just wisdom um just die with them, you know, because that’s how wisdom dies, you know. So, um, I think it’s a really good opportunity for for me to give back and hopefully help enough people and inspire enough people for them to want to get out and give back, too. Whether that’s youth sports or volunteering and um, you just joining corporate America, you know, like I think that that is so overlooked. It’s like, all right, I’ve done this at the highest stakes. what we’re dealing with right now in corporate America. This is not life or death. We can figure this out. Just maybe that level of just confidence like we can we can get to yes on this. You know, there’s hundreds thousands of guys out there that are like wired that way, but because they can’t get past their own issues and trauma, um, grief and loss and stuff like that that they get stuck and they don’t get to help other people because they need help themselves. Mhm. Yeah, man. It’s going to be uh I’m I’m really excited. It’s been all these years. I mean, we were never in network with TriRiCare, Tri West, looking to move into the VA uh situation as well and and just kind of really move through it. You know, it’s it’s cool when they describe the not the companies, but the resources that they’ve been working with over the years and and why I think Peaks Recovery presents like maybe just a little bit of a differentiator, you know, a little bit different of an opportunity, a more s sophisticated, thoughtful, curious way to approach like helping service members. And we approach it from like, well, we don’t know. You tell us what you need. Yeah. What do you need? Which is wildly insightful. It is. you know, it’s like, how do I get my ego out of the way of this so I can actually help you? It’s like, oh, I’m I’m Mike and this is what I can do. It’s like, well, hey, what do you need me to do? All right, I’m going to figure this out. You know, that’s the probably the most, you know, emotionally intelligent thing we can do. Um, and and I think that people that need help, uh, especially in the military, they want that. They want I want you to see me as a person. You know, my last name is on here for a reason. It’s who I am. It’s not what I do. is who I am. That’s the only thing on this entire uniform that is me, right? Um so I think that that is like going to be a breath of fresh air for people that are, you know, potentially coming to see us. Um and and I just being around the campus and going through some of the you know group sessions and individual sessions and kind of seeing how Peaks works like I think that that is going to be a a strength for Peaks helping out service members and their families. Absolutely. And I love what you were talking about too is like dude my favorite employees are like when when act when combat vets and active service like when they get it right and they come into the like they’re the best. Yeah, like Chris in our nursing department, like get out of here. Like he’s the best. Why? Well, he he figured out a way to get in that seat to take what he learned in the military, cultivate it, and use it for something good and had great people to his right and to his left. And so, I love that what you’re talking about is like potentially doing job fairs up there is like for nursing and therapists and this and PhDs and like, hey, man, because you know, I think if you transition from a military career into some sort of behavioral health, it will inform the foundation connectivity you need to do to do your own thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think like, oh, and by the way, you don’t have to do this in an austere environment, right? This is great. You don’t have to do this in a tent in the middle of somewhere or some airport. It’s climate controlled and everything. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t have to We’re not going to make you come in at 6:30 in the morning and do PT that you may or may not want to do. Do that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a It’s a great opportunity. Um I’m so looking forward to kind of just getting down in the weeds and just talking to people, you know? I just I like uh I like relating to people and I like hearing who they are and where they’ve been and what have you done and oh man that’s cool. You were there at that thing, you know. Um and and it kind of like just that shared experience of just being in the military for that long and doing that many deployments. I think it really resonates with people. You’re like, “Okay, you hear me. You understand?” you know, and and being in the army is not they think it’s like full metal jacket, stand up straight, you know, private pile. It’s not that, you know, it’s there is some of that. Um, and that’s that’s definitely part of it, but you know, like just the day-to-day marathon of being like a guy in the military, like it don’t stop and it’s going to keep going with or without you, right? And if you give everything to the military, it will take everything you will give and it will give you nothing back but memories and in a DD214, you know. So like what you what you get back from the military, it’s already given you, you know, you just got to figure out how to be resourceful with all of that information and knowledge and experience and apply that into things that are practical um after your career career in the military. Yeah. you know, and and not everybody is that insightful, you know, there’s not. And so, um, if we can help in that facet and like just help people live like productive and generally happy lives, dude, that you deserve that, you know, you deserve it for sure. Everybody deserves that. You know, nobody deserves to just be miserable and like, you know, dragging around this, you know, proverbial rucksack, you know, for the rest of their life. I there’s you see them all the time. you pass by them on 25 every day and they’re just like they don’t know what to do with all this baggage. It’s like you can do something with it. You just got to look at it differently. Yeah. Well stated. Yeah. Yeah. Well stated. I was talking I was on a call this morning and I said somebody’s asking well how’s the military? I said you know this is going to be a new vertical for us but frankly man we’re going to check back in with Mike here in like 3 to 6 months. We might have an entirely new program built out of this. more will be revealed, man. Trust the process. Grateful to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for all you do in the community. Four Peaks. Um, looking forward to a lot of one days at a time. Hey, thank you for thinking I’m smart enough to even do this. Let’s go, baby. Yeah. Appreciate you, Mike. All right, my beautiful people. Until next time. If I didn’t say it on the front end, they’ll introduce me with a little thing that says Chris Burns, president, founder. Have a beautiful day. Don’t forget to get outside and look at Pikes.
Heat. Hey, Heat.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Sunwave & Lightning Step Account Executive Pierce Rosengren for a conversation centered around recovery, identity, growth, and purpose. Pierce shares his personal recovery journey, lessons learned through life and fatherhood, and the principles that continue to guide him both personally and professionally. Together, Chris and Pierce explore the impact of music on healing and self-expression, the importance of reconnecting with your true self, and how meaningful human connection can build bridges in recovery and behavioral health. Through honest stories, reflection, and laughter, this episode is a reminder to stay grounded, embrace growth, and “be present where your feet are.”

Everybody’s going to be on their own journey. Everybody’s going to have their own steps to take. And I think what I need to be careful of when I’m helping somebody is not taking those steps for them. Now, I say I want individuals to see themselves in their own story, in their own recovery. It’s personalized, fits like a glove. this. But when you have somebody doing great work and they’re doing like phenomenal treatment and they’re reaching people where they’re at in the community and then you have somebody else that’s offering a different type of service and you connect those two people, dude, you just built a bridge that so many people can cross. So many people can cross that bridge and so many relation new relationships can be built off that.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, grateful recovering member of society. Chris Burns, president and founder, Peaks Recovery Centers. So grateful to be joined by a friend, colleague, um account executive over at Sunwave Human and Long-Term Recovery, dear friend of mine, uh Pierce. Welcome to the show, my friend. I’m so excited to be here. Yeah, it’s so exciting. I was thinking this morning when I was getting up looking at the mountains because I’m not from here as you know I’m from little small town in Oklahoma called Davis home of Turner Falls and uh so we don’t have these big beautiful peaks out here and I’m sitting thinking and and this happens to me consistently. I think how did I get here? Mhm. Like what got me here? Mhm. And it’s not and and sitting in this podcast today, I’m incredibly grateful. And it’s not that I feel like unworthy. It’s not that I don’t feel like I like I don’t have an imposttor syndrome, but it’s more like what am I doing here? Mhm. Like how did I go from being that young lost kid with no direction, no close tie to my family, no friends to sitting here knee to knee with you looking at pikes. Hey man, speaking on some experience, strength and hope. It’s a beautiful thing. Yeah. And one of which throughout my recovery and throughout my professional journey, I missed that opportunity to be present with that. Mhm. We were at I’ve talked about it on the show before, but since you brought it up, um I was sitting at the conference, maybe I mentioned it to you with Cassidy, and it was like our 12th year of setting up and you know, I’m 40 now and we’ve been out here a while and it was one of these things where like it’s okay to say like I I made it like I’m doing it. M and to recognize that and to sit with that and to become witness to that on a daily basis, I think is what creates like a lot of momentum and a lot of really good one days at a time and and and what can be like a celebration of life. And I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about. It’s like a wow. Yeah. You know, I said it last night in the, you know, and I believe in the spot in the Big B when it talks about rocketing like I I took that very seriously. I want to see what that felt like. Mhm. You know. Mhm. And now now I just want to share with people. Yeah. I just want to share with people and show people that like it is possible to step forth. So when I when I started my recovery journey um and I’m really looking forward to going through all this. It’s funny. I was in the bathroom right before we jumped in and I’m praying. I’m like just clear my mind, you know, clear my mind. Help me be present. And now I feel like my mind’s clear and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what do I say? What do I talk about? Here we go. jumping in. But u there was a piece of my recovery journey that was so important. It it was it was it was uh it was my third course of treatment and uh it was right before I jumped in. I had been working at a nightclub as a as like a bouncer door watcher downtown Oklahoma was working at a nightclub as a like a bouncer washing off tables or whatever. And they came to me and they said, “Pice, we we see the work that you’re putting in. we want to make you the opener. And what came out of my mouth was, you can’t do that. I’m addicted. I’m addicted to heroin. And I don’t know what it was in that moment of just brutal honesty, but I had a decision to make. There was two forks in the road. There was a fork in the road that I could go on and keep living the life that I was living. I could go on to the end of that destiny, go find my dope dealer, get the next hit, disappoint my family again. But that’s okay because I’ve been living that way for so long. I know what to expect out of this path. Yeah. And then there’s the other way. And it’s like two steps into that path, you know, making that first phone call and then the rest of it shrouded in fog. There’s no visible line of sight of where I’m going to go. And I had to trust that. I had to trust that. And um you know, for anybody that’s like thinking about taking that step, that step, like I said, I didn’t know what I was about to get into, but because I took that step, I’m like sitting here in Colorado Springs with you. Yeah. You know, Yeah. It’s a crazy thing. I remember being at that inflection point too with my sponsor and being like, “But I don’t know what’s down that path.” And he’s like, “Yeah, and I can’t assure what it is, but what I can assure you is it won’t be that.” And that was so difficult for me and was causing so many problems in my life. I came to a point of willingness where I was like, “As long as you can promise it won’t be that, I’ll do handstands downtown naked. I don’t give a [  ] man. Let’s roll.” You know what I mean? Like we’re ready to go. Like you stay up, we jump. I don’t give, you know? we’re it’s on, you know, and that’s what it was for me. It was like because I didn’t believe I didn’t believe for a second people really stayed sober. Like the the idea and I’ve said it multiple times, but like I’ll go to AA with my mom and I thought it was a novel idea. It was so pimp. So they go in, you’re like, “Nobody drinks for an hour.” Well, I didn’t know that the other people didn’t drink for the rest of the day because then my mom would go get a six-pack, whatever. We like the thing. But I thought it was cool cuz she would show up sober and she would leave sober and that was the only time I saw her sober. So then like you get into this process and I’m like I it doesn’t work because my mom still had all these things and then I meet this subgroup of people hanging out in the unarian church that are like just kind of vibing, kicking it, doing their thing. And what was so cool to me was like seeing 25year-olds absolutely ascending in their lives. And that for me was like I was like a man in man I’ll follow those guys, you know. How old were you when you got sober? 22. 22. 22. I was a 23. Nice. I know. I always love 22 year olds that come in, man. I’m like, you me, we’re the same, you know? But it’s a good it’s a good age, but it’s a really tough age to get sober because what what you’re really asking a 22-year-old or a 23-year-old is to cash in their 20s in the way that they may have imagined it or the way that is synonymous with our culture. And that is so difficult about putting down that coping mechanism um throughout that really crucial developmental stage of life. Yeah. I think I think when you get to that point though, when you’re miserable enough, you’re willing to do whatever it takes to get out of it. And as as somebody that has experienced getting sober at 23, it really wasn’t like I mean, gosh dang. When you get down to that point where you’re just like so miserable about like everything you’re doing like you’ve like tarnished like your life. I’m just sitting in the basement of my father’s house playing video games for 26 hours a day, you know? There’s like no point in my life that isn’t surrounded with that stuff. Mhm. And um and I think when like one thing that you’re really good at is coming at at at recovery in this way that’s exciting. Like you want to like you pump people up. You get people excited about doing this. Like your life looks good. Yeah. You look like you have something that is worth it uh striving for and and going for and obtaining. And I think that’s that attraction rather than promotion. Yeah. Like we’re not trying to push it like we don’t want to push recovery down your throat. I’m going to pivot a little bit. Yeah. cuz something that that has been in my recovery journey lately is learning that everybody’s recovery journey looks a little bit different. Mhm. It’s a tough lesson. It’s a really tough lesson and it actually is like it’s born from some pain in my own life, you know. Um, but when I first got sober, I entered into a 12step program. And that like I think whatever helps you find life, whatever helps you come back to this, maybe not even come back to is the right way to say that. Find this new person that’s that is you. And you just want to jump up and scream at the top of your lungs. You just want to get out there and get excited about it and tell people this is the way to do it. This is how you want to do it. Yeah. M but what if your way isn’t the way that is for everybody else? Right. Right. Well, you’re talking about the you know oneizefits-all mentality and that’s the way we really used to approach it and like you I would put that AA flag. I mean you can imagine me on 12step mountain. I was on 12step mountain for six years straight meeting every single day. I was ask secretary of the largest meeting in Arizona. Like I was the dude. And if you told me for a second like you don’t do AA I’d be like what step did you not do? Talk to me about it. And I would just ra But that’s what I was talking about last night. People sit in front of me like this. [  ] man. Okay, man. I’ll do the steps. Jeez. But now it’s like, well, dude, have you have you gone for a walk lately? You know, um, you want to go for a walk with me? You know, and I really, to your point, I want to emulate what is possible, like an openness and a broadness to my approach so that the individuals sitting across from me can see themselves inside their own recovery. And I used to say, I want individuals to see themselves inside my story. Now I say, I want individuals to see themselves in their own story, in their own recovery. It’s personalized, fits like a glove, you know? So, I’m I’m with you on that, man. And that was really tough for me when we opened Peaks Recovery cuz I mean, I’m telling you, dude, everybody at Peaks Recovery for 6 months went to three meetings a day. I mean, you talk 21 meetings a week, working steps, getting service positions, doing the thing, 20 applications, all this stuff. Uh, and then I went and went to the Meadows cuz my life was on the outside was really, really good, but on the inside it was the worst it had ever been. And I went and learned about some authentic healing. And you’re sober. I’m sober. But that’s just a piece of it. Yeah. That’s just a piece. That’s just a piece. That’s right. That’s just a piece. I think it’s it’s a big piece to the foundation to start. Mhm. But it’s a small piece in regards to happiness. Yeah. You know, I think some people look at like, well, sobriety is going to inform mental health. And I think sometimes that’s what people get hung up when in 12step is like, I’m going to be mentally healthy because I just do this. I think it’s like a cold plunge really, man. And I think it’s like ancillary to a primary project and you have a lot of options and we got the cold and we got the sauna and we got the 12step and we got the jiu-jitsu gym and we got the mountain climbing club and we got the dharma recovery and we got the salt caves and we got the meditation. We got the Buddhist temple, we got the church, we got the prayer, we got the meditation, we put God in the room, we it’s beautiful. And when you start speaking like that to people, regardless of my belief and I’m authentic with it, I found that people will just like, “Dude, that sounds ripping, dude. I’ll go check out some Buddhist Dharma thing. Never done it before. Got cowboys sitting in Dharma. They’re like, “Fuck, this is cool.” You know, you get excited about it. It’s cool, man. This is like the things that brought you back to life, right? It’s going back to what I was saying a little bit. I kind of remember my train of thought. Um, it’s interesting sitting in a podcast like and like naturally when you’re having conversations with somebody, there’s not like cameras getting pointed directly at your face. Dude, I can’t tell you how many times in this podcast, like live where I’ve been like, especially when I first started, first three years, you’d be talking And I’d be like, like what are we talking about? Gone. Because I’m so nervous. I’m just trying to be like, okay, question three, question four, question five. And I’m like, I’d be sitting there, dude. Like a real good conversation apparently. And I’m just like, what is your name? You know, just boom. I’m like, I think God does that for me, man. He’s like, here, man, try this out. Get better. I’m going to try this. Well, jumping back into what I was saying, and it actually came up at the winter symposium. The winter symposium was really cool. was like super authentic connections there, right? I had never been to the Winter Symposium. I’ve been hanging hanging around Denver and Colorado Springs quite a bit, so I met a lot of the folks in the area, but then getting seeing everybody together and the com and the kind of community effort that’s put forth and making sure that the right connections are in place. It’s my bread and butter. Love being a connector of people. That’s like my that’s like my genuine passion. I want to learn what you do and I want to learn what they do and I want to learn how we can do that together. And I think there’s a really there’s a really special moment in that when you can connect people. But man, back to what I was saying with the, you know, getting excited about your own recovery.
Everybody’s going to be on their own journey. Everybody’s going to have their own steps to take. And I think what I need to be careful of when I’m helping somebody is not taking those steps for them. Mhm. Because I really want to, right? Like and and then that inflection point when there was two paths to take and I took the one that was shrouded in fog. I needed it to be shrouded in fog. I didn’t need to be able to see down that path. I had to have faith and I had to walk down. Y I had to trust the people that were right in front of me saying, “Hey, there’s a good life on the other end.” But you’re not going to be able to get here unless you take those steps yourself. And so when you step into it and you find then you find life, you get really excited about it. You want to tell everybody about that thing and you want to help people walk along their journey. But that but you know the the with the more time that I’ve spent in recovery I’ve learned like hey people are going to be on their own journeys and what we really need to do is support that journey. Of course when somebody first gets sober like their ideas are going to be nuts and you probably need to do some tailoring to those ideas. You know like I don’t need to go hang out with some old friends back in the old hood I used to hang out with. I don’t need to go burning and gunning like that. I need somebody to say hey Pierce that’s not a good idea. How about you come to a meeting with us? How about you pivot that idea? I know it sucks to pivot that idea. I know it sucks to maybe say goodbye to that, but how about you come over here and you help and and you come through. But often times what I see in our recovery community is that people will get here. They’ll find this life. They’ll get really excited about it and they won’t transition out of that phase of like what I needed in the beginning maybe not what I maybe isn’t what I need now. I need to find some new way of Mhm. So when I when I think about the 12 steps, I think about the purpose that they’ve fulfilled in my life. Well, when I’m get first getting sober, like I don’t have any principles. I don’t I don’t live my life by principles. I lie. I cheat. I steal. I cheat. I um I I go out of my way to make sure that I need that I get what I need. And if there’s somebody in the way, I’m going to make sure that that that person is removed from my path so I can go at any means necessary. And often what’s that what that looks like is hurting people. like I hurt a lot of people. And so what the 12 steps did for me, broken down real easy, is they just gave me a guide of life. Behind each of the 12 steps is a principle. Principles like honesty, perseverance, faith, courage, um integrity, uh service. These are things that I don’t know and I need a program like a structured program around me to teach me those principles. How do I put that into action? Right? How do I get courageous enough to tell somebody that of all the secrets that I hold in my heart? How do I get courageous enough to do that? Well, there’s four more steps before that to get you to that place, right? There’s four more steps you can take before it’s time to share all your secrets, right? And I needed that. I needed that structure. And I still need that, right? But as my recovery grows, as my network grows, as my people around me grow, as the like like we were mentioning, those titans that are around me, those those living titans, those pillars in that are in my life. Um, how do I continue to grow that? And part of that journey has been learning how to approach people in a way that makes recovery look fun. And I’m not forcing it down their throat, right? I’m meeting them where they’re at. And we get to connect on a very like we get to connect on a human level. Mhm. And um yeah, that’s a that’s a that’s a part of the journey that I’ve been on lately and it’s been a lot of fun. Yeah. Trying to find that little piece. I love what you said, too, cuz it’s like, you know, when I got into 12step in my first year, I hope in my fifth year, I’m not fighting the same things I was in my first year. It’s a completely different box of box of goods and you got to treat it that way. And different seasons require different reasons. you know, TJ, we got to hang out with TJ last night, and I really love he’s he was an old 12step. He did 12step for 10, 15 years, and now he’s on he’s developed his own uh conscious recovery. It’s actually really cool. I think it’s great. And um he goes on to talk a lot about like great clinicians, like great helpers in this world, um are the people that just show up whole and perfect. And and that’s a lot of the essence of his conscious recovery is that everybody comes into this world whole and perfect and then the environment happens in these things. But it’s reminding you of that wholeness and perfection. And so he talks about like really great therapists coming into the room and just holding a space of wholeness and perfection. like like I come in and and I sit with you in a way that that without saying a word shows you emulates to you and you receive energetically how valuable you are because I know how valuable I am as a human, right? And he talks a lot about that and he talks about what it what it disconnects is oftentimes polarity and trying to help people meaning like I have the solution, you have the problem, follow me. It creates a bit of a disconnect. Whereas I think people in longerterm recovery, even big 12 steppers, they have a a a a a maturation to them where they can exist in a lot of different spaces, but still in that 12step way of life, you know, in service to others. Um picking up my trash, not littering, pushing my cart in. These very simple things, making amends whenever necessary. Um journaling a daily, you know, tent step. These are things that I’ve done nearly five days a week since I left the program almost 10 years ago. Like they’re just ingrained in my life. And those are the components that I be continue to share with others. It’s like community, service, integrity, perseverance, honesty, courage. These are dope ass things. And what I love about AA is it’s a bunch of competitive people in there, of course. And there’s no finish line. You know what I mean? Like you have so much integrity. Like you won, right? you you do so much service that you just serviced yourself. Yeah. So like you’re so honest like you’ve you know you’re right there and that’s what kept me coming back for more which is really cool. Yeah. I think I and I too need to be very careful in what I’m what I’m saying because I know today what I what the words that come out of my mouth can are um you know as somebody that’s stepped into into this journey what the words that I come that are coming out of my mouth can be very dangerous to the newcomer potentially if I’m misrepresenting something man that can be very dangerous to the newcomer if I say man you don’t have to go to the meeting right every day right I don’t go to a meeting every day but you and so That means me must mean you don’t have to go to a meeting every day. And my my strongest words of encouragement are when you first get sober, you need to do every single possible thing you can do to get yourself involved in every single way. Mhm. I don’t think there’s a time limit on when you can start to be of service. Mhm. In fact, I know there ain’t no time limit on when you can be of service. Yeah. You know, it would be like a time limit on feeling good. You know, that would be a time limit on feeling good. Yeah, you’re you on a time limit on feeling good. I’m trying to help you feel better, you know. Actually, it’s it’s taking out the trash at my clubhouse. Something about it, man. That was like the thing that connected me to the people in that group. Yeah. You know, service changes over time. Yeah. You’re the ticket guy, you’re this butt guy or you’re the coffee guy. Like I was the coffee guy. Yeah. You know, if you’re making coffee, man, you’re the dude. You get to know everybody. You just know everybody. That’s cool. So, jumping in. Jumping straight in. How old were you when you had your first kid? I was 19. 19. That’s cool. Mhm. All right. How So your oldest is seven. My oldest is eight. Eight. Okay. Boy. Yep. Okay. And you have four kids? I have three. Three. Three boys. Let’s go, dude. I was raised like an 8-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 2-year-old. Okay. They’re a whole lot of fun, man. Yeah. And my first one was born in my addiction. Really? Yeah. My second one is the only My second one I was 6 months sober when he was born. Mhm. So, conceived during my addiction, but I got sober. And that was a really interesting thing to have to try and navigate. Like, how do I live in sober living, but also be a dad? Oh my gosh, man. That’s, you know, I had all this I was talking last night about it to somebody and I was like, man, I used to do when I went to treatment, I’m like, you know, my mom, she was worse. Yeah, I did heroin with her and she did drugs and all this. And then I only come to realize like everybody’s doing the best they can, man. you know, and and she had me at like 19, 20, you know, so like she kept me alive. I feel like that’s a really big deal at 19 or 20. Like me at 19 or 20, like I don’t turn the bathtub off. Like I’m not in a good place. And so shout out to you for being here with all your kids, man. Oh, buddy. It’s, you know, and very quickly after that, quickly after that, you were you found your your recovery pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I did like a little foxhole prayer. Okay. with my first um before my first son was before we ever found out he was pregnant. I’m going to dig a little deeper. This is this is that piece of the honesty in this in this in this show that I want to get out there, you know, cuz I think it’s I think it’s I think it’s there’s something really genuine about being open and honest about things. So I found out um I had I I was living with my mom for a while for most of my life. And uh she she just couldn’t handle me anymore. And so she sent me over to my dad’s house. My dad is a flight attendant. And my dad has a quite a nice home. I mean, he’s pretty big. Yeah. And uh but he’s gone 5 days a week. And what does a what does an 18-year-old do with a father that’s not in his nice home for 5 days a week? I’m throw some rager parties. Yeah, there’s some raers and um I was at it was one of my parties that I just separated myself from the group. It was all it was all kind of crashing down around me like that that lifestyle wasn’t it’s not sustainable, man. It’s not sustainable. It doesn’t after a while it doesn’t feel good anymore. It’s not fun. After a while, you’re doing it just because like well I really don’t have any control over why I’m doing it. I don’t even know why I’m doing it for the most part. I don’t I don’t like most of these people in my home, but I’m doing it anyway. And um and my girlfriend and she comes home and I’m like tripping acid, you know, with all these people in the house and she’s like, “Pice, I need to talk to you.” Two weeks before that, I had a foxhole prayer. I had stepped away from one of the parties and I prayed, “God, send me something. Send me something to get me out of this life.” And so two week about two weeks later, she came to me. She’s like, “Pierce, I need to have a conversation with you. I just found out I’m pregnant.” And so, you can imagine 18-year-old Pierce like tripping. Yeah. Just this whole house full of people. I don’t know what I’m going to do, but in the moment, I just knew I was an answer. That was an answered prayer. Mhm. The worst of my addiction was yet to come. Unfortunately, you know, he’s eight and I’m 5 years sober. The worst of my addiction was yet to come, but it started it was the kind of like the catalyst that pushed me into into it. And so being a dad, being a young dad has its difficulties, right? Like there’s a lot of pieces. There’s a lot of things that I would change if I could. Like um like being a single dad is difficult. I don’t get to I don’t get to live in I don’t get to live in a home with my boys. I get to spend time with them and they come and stay with me, but I don’t get to be there dayto day. And that’s hard. Yeah. That’s been difficult. Um, and when I when my second son was born, I was in sober living. That’s not ideal. That’s not where I saw myself. Um, and then then, you know, my third son is born and like I said, they don’t, you know, I’m a single dad and that has its troubles that it’s struggles, but I’ve surrounded myself with men that are on in the same vein, on the same journey with me. And um and what I’ve what I’ve learned is all this stuff is happening for a reason. All these things, all these pieces, all these gifts. Mhm. I have these gifts in my life for a reason. Um exactly what the reason is yet, I don’t know. But I I think I think I know. As you’re sitting here talking, I’m just thinking to myself like I think our kids actually need to see need to see our humanity, man. I think they need to see that humans struggle. I think they need to see dad, including myself, do things that they know are unhealthy and that I’ve labeled as unhealthy. And they need to continue to see me to do them. And then they need to see me stop. And I think that’s the profound spot I think that we miss in all of it is like I carry shame or guilt because X, Y, and Z. But really the the bread and butter on the backside is like and we have the ability to stop these negative behaviors, improve our lives and create light for others. And I think that’s more profound than not having gone through it at all. Quite frankly, I I look at, you know, my dad drank his entire life, never drew a sober breath. You know, had had he at 20 gone to treatment, I mean, we’ve been through a lot, man. My dad was tough on me. I would have been like, “That’s my [  ] dad.” Talked about it all the time, man. And so, I don’t think there’s any mistakes, only lessons as long as we move forward and get better as a result. And and that’s that’s what I want to teach my kids. There’s no perfect slice of pie in this world. Daddy is not perfect. Like, I’m imperfect. I make mistakes. Sometimes I don’t talk to your mom the way I should. Sometimes I don’t show up with you guys the way I should. But I want you to know that I can own when I’m wrong and I can get better. It’s called an amends. And that’s what AA taught me. And not just to show up to make amends, to make amends, because I can make amends all the time to make amends. Now I’m a changed behavior, right? And I want you to call me on it. And now I have a relationship with my kids, too. Because even though I was sober when I had my kids, I was a disconnected father. I was struggling with mental health issues. I was soaked in this like money labyrinth that I thought was had a quality of life in it and it didn’t. And so I’m here to say that I’ve been able to correct a lot of that and do these certain things. And it’s unfortunate sometimes because with our kids, like I was telling you last night, it’s like they’re suffering from what I suffered from two years ago, I just have to be on the right path sustainably for a long time for them to move on with me. But I don’t get it twisted at all. Like our kids are generally speaking spitting images of us. So I think what you did is actually really really cool. I know a lot of people that are parents right now at the facility that really have a difficult time finding any. I also think that that the journey that um that I’m on as a father is uh cuz like cuz who I used to be and who I am today are completely different. Who I the father that I was a year ago versus the father that I am today is completely different. Right. We learn our lessons as being a dad. We move on. We we take those lessons we take those pieces that maybe wrapped in a little bit of shame. Mh. You know like I was saying like getting getting honest about that saying my kids don’t leave my home. Man, that comes with so much shame, dude. It comes with so much shame. I actually got sweaty sitting here and I was like, I don’t know if I should have shared that. But it’s important to share that thing because I’m not the only person going through that. There’s other there’s other young men out there that are in the same position I am. And then so, you know, taking a couple steps into the journey of being a single dad. What does it look like? Well, it looks like spending very intentional time with your kiddos. Yeah. It looks like making some sacrifices and not always doing what you want to do. Mhm. because it’s really easy for me to do what I want to do, right? Because of course it’s what I want to do. But what about when I sacrifice that time and I go spend it with my kiddos and I go we go do some kind of fun adventure or I teach sit down and I teach them the lessons that I’ve learned in a very like like very like like fundamental Yeah. way, but I get to take the experiences that I that I’ve had through life through with that with them having them walking their journey with them. I get to share that with them and like I think all together build this beautiful bond that we have as a son and father and uh grow together. Um I’m going to pivot pivot just a little bit cuz when going back to like stepping into sobriety I never thought things like this would be possible today. Right. And something that I shared with you recently was music. Yeah, bro. Shared some music. Get out of here with that [  ] man. Tell the people. Yeah. Tell the people about the music, dude. Dude, here’s the cool part about Here’s the cool part about stepping into that fog. Things are going to happen in your life that you weren’t expecting. When did you start playing music? Beautiful things, man. I I started playing I started playing the drums before I could write my last name. So, just [  ] And I remember Yeah, I remember that. That’s cool. I got So, I got my first drum set like a really childish drum set when I was uh for Christmas one year. I had to have been no no older than 5 years old. Okay. And my uh mom and dad, they put me in guitar lessons, which is funny. I had that drum set at home and I had a guitar at home. They thought I might be more interested in the guitar. So, they put me in the guitar lessons. And in that lesson, that very first lesson, he taught me how to spell my last name. He he told me I needed to clip my fingernails so I could play the guitar, right? And and taught me how to spell my last name. But the whole time through that lesson, all I could hear in the back was was the backbeat of some drums. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. I told him, I was like, “I want to know what that is.” And he’s like, “Okay, we’ll go check it out after this lesson.” He opened the door to those two drum sets. One was blue, one was white. And um there was my first drum teacher was sitting in there. His name was Bill. And Bill was dude, his double bass work just top notch heavy metal. He’s a heavy metal guy. Played in a heavy metal band. They were in a touring band. And when uh man, I locked eyes with him, locked eyes with those drum set, and that’s it. He tell that’s my passion. Like my true passion. I’ve been playing since I was probably six or seven. There’s been some off times in there, you know. Um there’s been some times where I stopped playing for a couple of years. I just kind of like lost the passion for it, right? But it never really left me. I think um and then so in playing drums, going through life, dude, uh one of the times that I put it down was through my addiction. Yeah. I put it down. It was the only thing that I didn’t sell. So, I sold everything but my drums. I told you all my friends that are musicians are drummers, man. I’ve had so many stories where my like I’m with my friend as they’re getting their drums back like for the first time and rec. Dude, epic. So cool. So cool. Yeah. But I’ve growing up I either wanted to be a rock star, a Power Ranger, or an Imagineer for Disney. It’d be so cool to be a rockstar, dude. So, I you hear me talk about you. I’m like, dude. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so cool. Turns out I’m not going to be a Power Ranger. Yeah. Probably not. Not this year. Not not gonna put the work in. I want not gonna put put the work in for to be an Imagineer for Disney. Yeah. But I’m on this like little journey of being a rock star. Yeah. So, the Daniel Card Band. Mhm. How did you say you were going to tell me how did that come to be? And they are groovy, you guys. I’m telling you right now. And I’m not I’m pessimistic at best with your playlist. And so, like like I man but like you you sent that through and I’m like and you caught me at the perfect time when I’m in the sauna. I like to listen to books and I like to read inspiring [  ] and I like to listen to new music. And you hit it and I just hit it and I was like, so the Daniel Card Band, man, this this is great. They just released their album. It’s I every song’s good, but there’s like eight bangers. Tell us about it. There are a few bangers in there, man. So, uh, my u, our Dan, our lead singer, the our group kind of knew that Dan was looking to play with some guys. And so, he hooked up with our guitarist Brooks. And him and Brooks started to go play different shows around Oklahoma, just little small things, little like acoustic gigs. And then Brooks and I ran into each other at one point. He knew I played the drums. I knew he played the guitars. He’s like, “Why don’t you come and join the band?” So, we joined the band. The bass player got pulled into it. How long ago were you was that? That was probably 3 years ago. Oh wow. 3 years ago. So we all got linked together and our first practice was in the sober house garage and uh in the in the sober house that I was managing. That’s right. We didn’t have anywhere else to practice. So we practiced so that was and um and so we were all sitting there in that we we came up we coined our name from where we all got sober. Um, it’s the Daniel Card Band in the It’s the Daniel Card in the class of 39. And if you know, you know. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. That’s cool. And so we were sitting there in that in our little first practice and Mickey was like, “You have two years sober. You have two years sober, you have one year sober, I have 35 years sober, we have 39 years of sobriety combined in this in this band right now.” And so it was just like this little Godwink of this little, you know, this little kiss from the universe saying, “Hey, you guys are you guys are supposed to be here.” And the class of 39 that the 39 and that name does not come from the amount of time that we had. So that we just found that out on off coincidence. That’s funny. And then we started uh we started playing some shows around town. Dan had recorded an album with the Turnpike Trouidors before we all those songs he had been riding with Kenny and stuff. They uh he recorded that stuff with with the Turnpike Trouidors and then that’s when after that album came out we all kind of linked together started playing shows slowly but surely writing all this writing all this music that’s on the the newest album and we we’ve been we’ve been playing that that music for a year. What it’s on the album? Mhm. Oh, cool. Oh, no. I’m sorry. About two years. Oh, wow. Two and a half years we’ve been playing that music that’s on the album now. And so we’ve taken all that stuff and um Dan put all the investments necessary to create a professional album and here we are. Yeah. Even the album cover I think is like like that couch is dope. Like it’s a yellow couch. The album name was supposed to be things that don’t belong really and so we took all this like crazy random crap brought it out through the forest. It’s cool. Set it up. Everybody’s got to listen to it, man. I’m fanboy, you know. We’re here for it. That’s freaking cool. And the story makes it even cooler. So, I’m just going to summarize what you said and then I’m going to I’m going to rep the album. Yeah, that’s dope, man. How long How long did it take to actually get in the studio and like the studio time take took like 3 weeks like front to back? Because you guys are really well verssed in the songs. We’re super well versed in the songs. Whereas if somebody’s writing new music and they’re going to produce it, I’m sure people that have like re tons of resources, they just write in the studio and [ __ ] get in there and just get get after it. Yeah, man. Yeah. That’s so cool, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that music stuff, man, that plays a that plays a big part of like one of the things that I’m really passionate about is helping young people find that like there’s there’s going to be so much more to your recovery than what you think is going to happen. Whatever you think is going to happen, toss it. Throw it out. That’s not what’s gonna I mean like the if you were to write on a list what would your life was going to look like and you’re like third day of being in rehab for sure. Write out that list. Dude that dude just throw that list out the window. It’s not going to look like that. Yeah. You’re going to underell yourself. Super underell yourself. You’re like I will die a house manager. And you’re like wait what? Yeah. He said 10 bucks an hour. Please God. You know 10 bucks an hour. I’m just like, man, imagine you could just get it to 15. I know, man. It was different when I Things weren’t as expensive when I got sober, but you know, you could make minimum wage, which was 725 an hour back then, and you could basically split an apartment with somebody and that was it. Minimum wage and split an apartment. Mhm. I take that back, man. His mom was paying for a bunch of Yeah, that’s not possible. That’s not possible. So, I love that, man. you got the music and and maybe to your point, you know, you 5 10 years from now, it’s it’s like you’re doing this music thing and it’s in recovery and it’s it’s this nonprofit
when you have passion and purpose driven into it. Mhm. You know, passion and the purpose is is what is what’s been driving it. So, how big what’s the biggest show you guys have played? Like a couple hundred people. Yeah, we played a show of 250 people at a place called the Goddard Center. Okay. It was our first ticketed show. Really? and we have a lot of family and friends and you know some some people that we’ve reached in the community up to that point. Um we hadn’t even released the album yet. We packed out the Goddard Center 250 people. That’s talk about stepping into uncomfortability. Yeah. I’m telling you man, there’s something about like getting in front of growing up I was super shy. Really really shy. Like I’ve always been pretty shy. those that drum set has made has like has made getting on stage speaking to people talking to people something that like has been has become more natural because when you get on stage man we used to we we get on stage for like three four hours at a time and luckily I have that drum set in front of me right I’m not the lead singer that’s got the full you know I can hide behind my drum set but like being playing the drums and pursuing that passion and getting ourselves in front of people and then getting all the way up to that point where we played a ticketed show at Goddard in Ardmore, Oklahoma. That was kind of like this pivotal moment. Something really interesting happened to me there. Um
I I I consistently have it in my head that like once I reach this point, I’m going to fulfill like a certain level of happiness that I didn’t that like that I don’t have right now, but oh, once I get to that point, I’m going to lock it in. We played Goddard and and it was a lot of fun, but it was like what’s next? Yeah. But I think, you know, when you get to a point, it’s it’s always like that. I’ve talked about this book so many times, but I [  ] love it so much. It’s called Greatness, but this guy wrote it and he basically says, and he’s he’s a sports psychologist, and anyway, the the the the ethos of it is that greatness is defined as selfless exceptionalism. And it’s not what you have or what you’ve done, but it’s what can you do with your God-given ability to make the world around you a better place. Mhm. And that’s speaking of like people that are in the upper echelon of their field, the highest of the high, the 0.00001, the billionaires, the people with the pot of gold, all the things, the ascension, you turn on the TV, everybody’s trying to get there. Everybody wants more and they’re trying to get there. I remember I used to be there be like I’d make a huge paycheck more than, you know, and and then I’m like, I’m already spending the next one on a spreadsheet and then I’m spending the next one because I more more more. And so I think sometimes it comes down to like being connected, you know, and being where your feet are. And I that’s why I always talk about Echer Toll on the show because he he talks about suffering outside of the present moment. And that’s the only spot that suffering lives. If I can be at the Goddard place with the 250 people pres Yeah. Be where my feet are, you know, and as you go through the journey, as you are where your feet are, I think we’re able to have so much more joy and excitement. So, I was dropping off my burner doodle yesterday. This goes along with the story. You might not think it, but it’s [  ] good. I’ve done this twice. My burner doodle, he gets so excited, dude. And it used to make me really mad. It doesn’t make me mad anymore. Yeah, cuz I changed it. So, he gets so excited, bro. He gets so excited he he pals, right? I bring him to the facility all week. Last week, brought him to the facility every day. He ples. And I remember myself getting kind of mad. I was walking to the facility the other day. I was walking into the groom the other day. I’m like, he’s probably going to [  ] p. And I thought to myself, like, and I tell everybody when I walked in, I was like, “Can you imagine on a Tuesday, you get so excited as a human, you piss your pants?” I mean, what a [  ] Tuesday. Like, if you could do that once in your life through pure joy and excitement, you just leak yourself like because you can’t control it cuz you’re so excited. So, I’ve reframed that [  ] man. I’m just like, I love you, River. You’re going to pedal because you’re having a great day. you’re having the best and I’m going to come behind you. I’m going to wipe it up because I’m having a better day because I get to see you have a great day. And I told the person in the thing, I was like, “Can you imagine?” She looked at me. She’s like, “No shit.” Like if you pissed yourself on a Wednesday. What a great day. A great day. Simple. Yeah. A great day. You know, so I’ve been doing a lot of reframing lately because these issues and these problems in my life are it just about every single one of them are something that I’ve prayed wholeheartedly for. Yeah. Just bring it to me. Just bring it. And now God and the universe like, “Yeah, we’re here.” Just bring it. I just want to be with it. Yeah. You know, just bring it. And I should I should say, man, that Goddard thing, I’m going to pivot and reframe that a little bit cuz like the way that I described it a second ago of like reaching that place and then being like, okay, what’s next? I don’t think that’s a completely accurate representation of the way that I felt in that moment. The way that I felt in that moment was like one, I can’t I cannot believe that I’m here right now. I cannot believe that I’m playing in front of my family and my friends behind this drum set that I love so much. Mhm. A drum set that I love so much that I didn’t give that one thing away. That’s the only one thing I didn’t give away in my life. The drums are just part of my They’re just part of me. And I never thought getting to that place would even be possible. But here I am playing in front of all my friends nervous as hell, right? Like an hour in, you don’t just go into like a like a auto automatic mode. Not that show. No. But like normally like if you’re doing it, you’re just like, you’re not even thinking. 100%. Oh, I love that. It’s cool. 100%. It’s like flowing. You know how jiu-jitsu is like one of those things that’s like now built into your nervous system. Like the way you move, the way you like come like come up underneath people, wrap people up. That’s the way the drums are for. If I hear it in the other room, I’m like thinking of like all the different variants of that beat. How can we intertwine that with with the tune that I’m thinking of? That’s just the way, you know, when you play that long, when you practice as long as you’ve been, you know, that that stuff comes to be. But that show, no, I didn’t. I never got in. No. No, I never blow it. No, I couldn’t blow. It’s just song after song, song after song. I’m just so nervous sitting up there like and the drummers kind of got us started, too. It’s interesting about you being shy and being a drummer. One of my best friends, Kyle, he’s a ripping drummer. I was talking about him yesterday. He liked the drums cuz he was in the back. Just get me off of that and he could just be behind his thing and do his thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It’s been part of the journey. It’s like uh like if I’m if I consistently like to find things that I’m afraid to do. You’ll be humbled to know that I only look at the drummer. Like to just be clear. Yeah. Like I’m like look at that dude just raging like raging and I am like whole time. Well, it’s like you’re hiding. That’s like what you feel, right? Yeah. You feel that beat. Oh yeah. Coover is going to be like, “Hey, you tap tap the mic. Tap the mic.” Yeah. It’s that that kick drum, man. It’s just kick drums. That’s what you feel. Uh that’s what you feel. I’m really excited that you’re pushing back into a passion. You know, like throughout my journey over the last 18 years, you see a lot of artists that just can’t find the place to paint and do their art. And people along the way along their journey have told them things like, “Don’t do that. You ought to get a real job.” Or, “You ought to do this and stop doing that.” And so people get into recovery and they forget that they paint and they need to paint every day. It’s it’s my opinion that When you’re a painter, we got to touch that. When you’re a drummer, like we move into our passion every day, even if it’s just a touch. And it doesn’t mean I have to make money, but maybe I will someday and that’s okay. So, I’m just really big on the artist community, like building them up and like Yeah. because you talk about the guitarist and that these sad stories, man. And I I read into people’s memoirs and I’m so intrigued by people that play music and how they get there and uh and how they’re able to speak through their music and sometimes they’re not able to speak in any other kind of setting. It’s very interesting to me. It’s very complex. They’re very cool people. Very unique, very intricate, very thoughtful, you know, and I and I’m not and I want to be. And so I I think I a lot of artists. Well, you’re you’re an artist. Yeah. You’re an artist own way. You just paint differently. Yeah. You just paint different. Yeah. So I love that, man. Let me know when the next album’s coming out, but we got to get you out here at the Black Sheep. We got this dingy ass thing. It’s been around forever. I was telling Pierce about it. It’s feels like it’s like underground. There’s like one door. There’s no windows. But man, you can get close enough to the stage where you can like feel feel them like picking the strings. It’s so cool. You guys would I would make sure we sell that thing out. I feel like it’d be a lot of fun. We’re still working out our sound, you know? That’s like part of being like a like you can go into the studio and you can record this like perfect album or whatever, but you’re still going to be working on the sound. That’s true, man. Yeah. Like we have all this like perfect production going on and like the producer can add things in here and there. Yeah, but as a as a as a still like new like I consider us still a newly found band, we’re still trying to tweak that sound, but playing shows is the way we do it. I love it, man. And it’s got a jig to it, man. Makes you want to tap your foot. Yeah. Especially Good Luck, Godspeed. So good. Good luck. I’m gone. Maybe I’m gone. You know, man, I’m a fanboy. When I start Cass will come in the garage. She’d be like, “Do you have this song on repeat your whole workout?” I’m like, “Yeah, they only released two songs on the album.” Yeah. She’s like, “You’re [  ] bad.” just slammed the door. I’m like, “Yeah, get out of here. We’re running it.” You know, and I’m just over and over and over. Yeah. So, I know a lot of words to a lot of the songs, but we’ll get her down. Like, if I come see you, I’ll know all the words. I’ll be I’ll be out there. Come on. Come and you’ll know cuz I’ll be I’m telling you, I was dancing to it the other day and I’m the guy at the concert guy out there like literally like moving and grooving harder than anybody that’s got a [  ] 18 pack in them or anything, whatever. And so, like I go to your show and I’ve already danced to your jigs. I will create the biggest dance mosh pit. Like you will be like you’ll feel the vibration, bro. And I’ll just be like, you know, I’m that guy. Hypes me up. I’m that guy, dude. Like jumping like we’re jumping now about getting in tune. Yeah. So talk to me about like I’m going to ask you the question after we talk about this, but like the ascension and the move into like being a recovery professional, separating the two and and what has that been like for you throughout the journey? that has actually been you know with respect to your sobriety like quite a long journey. Working in the behavioral health field has been a a critical part of my journey. It’s it’s been um so uh got sober out at a place called Country Road Recovery Center. I don’t imagine there’s a lot of recovery places in Oklahoma. There’s not. Okay. But that was in Oklahoma. But Country Road Recovery Center was in Oklahoma. It’s 135 acre ranch out in Tecumpsa. It’s got to be extended care. It it was 90 days. Lovely. I love it. Yeah, it was 90 days. Um I I did two treatment episodes out there. So I you know after that third one I I fell in love with being in that space. I felt like I told my therapist one day he was like I was like dude I my happy place is in treatment. He was like you have a very expensive happy place. Yeah that’s going to be a tough one. You might as well choose four seasonough but it’s what it’s what was there you know that’s what I had. That’s what brought me back to life. I get it man. I get it so much. Especially as a young guy. I wanted to work as a tech. I really wanted to sit along. It’s like sit across the table and as I’m passing their meds be like, “Hey, how are you doing today? What are you going through?” Like, “What are you feeling? Talk to me.” If you’re mad, come and find me. I’ll sit with you. If you’re happy, if there’s something really cool going on in life, you just connect. You know, you just connected with the universe today. Everything made sense. You know what recovery feels like. You got it locked in. You’re going to be this way forever. Come find me. You know, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about what it looks like to walk through your pains, your, you know, your times of depression where you don’t want to talk to anybody. Man, come find me. I want I want to serve the community in that way. I wanted to be a behavioral health tech because there was somebody that did that to me. The first amends I ever made was there was a tech out at Country Road. Um, this is around the time COVID was happening and he had a mask. He didn’t have a mask on and he said he was sick and I cussed him out. I was like, “How could you do this to us?” I didn’t think there was CO in Oklahoma. Everyone’s going to say, “No, do that.” There wasn’t hearing any spraying. No, I’m just kidding. No, I’m just kidding. But uh but he he just he he walked me through that, helped me see like, “Hey, you know, if you’re when you’re ready to come and talk to me about it, come and talk to me. We’ll talk it through. We’ll figure it out.” So, I slammed the door and I was out. But I came back to him and he taught me what making amends was. Mhm. It’s just those pivotal pieces of working with people in in you know people in treatment, working with those that are going through treatment. There was something about that connection that I just was drawn to. And so after um after I graduated the program about 8 months later or so, I was invited back to be um a behavioral health tech. Sweet. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. So I got to serve in that in that way for 4 months. I got to be part of that community. I got to be back where I got sober like pour into those people fresh and you’re really valuable at that level really cuz your alumni I mean dude and you just you know getting close to a year like they could miss my information but someone like you shows up and they’re like oh [  ] okay you know it sucks here sometimes right you know yeah and I also I’m back in my happy place or whatever yeah exactly why do you think why do you think people feel so good when they’re in a good treatment program.
Well, I can speak for myself. Yeah. Why do you think it felt so good? I felt like I finally found my people. I was treated with respect. Yeah. I was treated with love. I was treated with compassion. Yeah. Forgiveness. Yeah. They treated me as somebody that had integrity. When I had yet to ever figure out what integrity actually was. Um and they spoke to me. They spoke my language to me. They said, “Hey, Pierce, you’re not okay right now.” Right. But you’re going to be. Mhm. And it’s okay not to be okay. And they taught me that. Yeah. They taught me that. They spoke the language of the heart. Yeah. They taught me what that was like. It’s interesting because the same way that you the same reason you thrive in recovery today is because of the same reason you thrived in treatment. It’s the same thing. It’s the same thing. I I have to be seen, valued, heard in community. It’s just unfortunate that when I get to a place like Peaks Recovery or the place out in Oklahoma, I haven’t been seen, valued, heard, or anything outside of my family for years. Yeah. I have to have that in community. It feels good, dude, to know I’m valuable cuz I kind of threw myself away and I feel like you were trying to kind of throw me away. So, it’s a see value hurt and and now you’re in treatment and I remember going back for my third time to the same place. I’m like, I just here I had an inability to create community. I didn’t have the value. But then you get plugged into a you start doing it. But that’s what your life is today. Like everything you described is everything my life is today. I’m sure the same exact thing. I think that I think in treatment I just was like like met with love. I just was met with love. And it reminds us it’s possible. It’s possible 100%. It’s possible. And I think I was fed some good food. Got some good sleep. So good. So good. Dude, even me and Bobby back to the office, man. I’ve been to treatment. I mean, when I went to the Meadows, but it was it was intensive. I had my phone. I could leave and go get a steak if I wanted. Um, but yeah, it was a good treatment. But Bobby and I talk, you know, we we uh wax about it 18 20 years ago. This hike and this hike and that story. And it’s like, you know, cuz I didn’t go to traditional college. I felt I often ask people to go through college. I’m like, “What’s that like, man? What’s the time of your life?” Like, you move away from home, you get autonomy, dad gives you 200 bucks a week, you get some fast food, whatever. Like, what is that like? Because I was doing treatment and I was in sober living. we were doing that college, that university, which I would imagine is pretty similar like in a way, but I think people think it’s like so different, but it’s it’s really not. It’s developmental. It’s the same thing. It’s developmental. It’s community. It’s building. Yeah. But I four months into that gig, I was asked to be a part of the missions admissions department and admissions was a whole thing for me. I was terrified to answer the phone. I mean terrified to answer the phone. It was petrifying. Yeah. Like when I thought about that phone ringing and me have to answer that to a stranger. Mhm. I probably had my boss do 10 example calls just show me but just keep showing me keep showing me you know and uh but eventually I got into it and that I did that for a about a year about a year I was I was as an admissions coordinator and through that time I personally developed courage of just talking to people on the phone. I developed relationships with those folks. I got to see them at their worst day and I got to see them when they graduated. I got to see them on their best day. You’re on site. Mhm. Oh, that’s cool. And I got to be I got to be part of their journey. I got to I got to be the one that say, “Hey, it’s you’re not okay, but you’re going to be okay. And it’s okay not to be okay right now. You just trust me and grab my hand and I’ll walk you through the fog that you’re in right now. I got you. Reach out. It’s up to that person if they’re going to reach out or not. all I can do is make sure that I hold the space and that’s what I did as an admissions coordinator, I just held the space that made recovery possible. Mhm. And um and so after some time of being an admissions coordinator, I got asked to lead that department and then eventually as at um kind of graduating from that program in and the and uh I as the senior director of outreach. And so I moved from from behavioral health tech to admissions to outreach. And the outreach piece I was going out into the community, developing relationships and building out a network around Country Road. Yeah. We told you that on your, you know, 30th day of sobriety, you’re going to go network, build, forget about it. pipelines, connections, relationships with new people, build trust, talk about recovery, be au I mean, that’s like Yeah. And again, that’s the sauce. Again, it was this scary thing that I didn’t know how to do. Like when I like I like being a tech. I kind of knew how to be a tech because I watched people be a tech, but I was still afraid to be a tech. But we did it and we learned. And then admissions, I was petrified, but we did it and we learned. We built team. We built camaraderie. It was fun. And then moving into outreach, I was terrified. I remember my first outreach call. I had planned out this elaborate day of what I was going to go do. And I showed up at this like this therapist office that did ADS sack assessments or whatever. And she told me, she said, “I don’t know who you are. I don’t want any part of whatever you’re trying to sell me. Crushing. Yeah, but we do CBT. But we do CBT. Hold on. Have equin the good work. Yeah. This is Lady, this is my first day. It’s gender specific. Lady, this is my first day and you’re really slam. Yeah. And I call my boss. I was like, “Bos, this just happened to me. I’m going to go home.” He’s like, “No, don’t go home yet. Go to a couple more. You’ll be okay. I can’t believe that happened to you on your first try.” Like that that’s not the usual. Like that is so unusual for that to happen. But again, it just like this this like just stepping into the things that are uncomfortable and getting through it and showing myself that I can get through it. Cuz like back in the day, if something was uncomfortable, I’ll just, you know, I’ll just use I’ll just drink. I just wash it all away. I won’t do anything. I’ll just sit behind my video games and like forget life even exists. But today I’m like tra like I’m like really pushing myself. Like being a tech was hard, being admissions was hard. Like I’m pushing myself through these things and I have a good community around me that’s like pushing me and helping me navigate these like hard things in my life at the time. And now I look back and I’m like gosh I could I could answer an admissions phone call right now. I’m like be like smooth sailing. it be like it’d be like, you know, Mhm. it just be like something really fun to do. Mhm. And um and so like and that’s why I think working in treatment as somebody that’s in recovery has been so powerful in my life is because like not only am I like getting to serve the people that my people getting to serve my people. I’m also getting I’m also getting pushed I’m getting pushed to challenge myself in these different ways that I never knew possible. Which pushes me into my next journey. I was at um I was at a conference, the Rocky Mountain Symposium here in Aurora and I was by myself. I was supposed to have somebody come with me, but this was my first conference that I was completely by myself. And I’m like again, you know, stepping into the uncomfort. I just went in, I did it. We did a national conference together. But then I ran across the Sunwave guys. And the Sunwave guys, they made a really big impact on me. And one of the account executives, he pulled me aside. He said, “Do you like business development?” And I said, “Yeah.” Like I’m at that point I was getting kind of burnt. Yeah. At that point I was kind of getting burnt on like the message and everything. Um I think I think it just had a time shelf for me. But he’s like, you know, I think you’d be a really good account executive and um I let that seed kind of sink in. Mhm. And then a few months later, the opportunity came up. I don’t know if it was a few months. might have been a solid year later, but the opportunity came up to join Sunwave to be part of their team as an account executive. And again, that that miss that that thing just keeps repeating itself, right? I step into this account executive role and I’m like completely imposter syndrome. Like, how am I going to sell software? It’s a cool title, too. You know, account executive. Yeah, I was at my Yeah, I was called an account executive once. I thought it was really cool. today. I just call it So now you’re selling software. Yeah. Yeah. Now I’m selling software and uh I I try to like So the way that I see it is that when I was in direct care, I was helping I was directly helping the person that was being afflicted by addiction. directly helping them whether it be connecting them to services or like sitting knee to knee with that person and really walking them through their journey. Yeah. Walking the journey through together. And on the the software side of things, I get to sit with treatment centers that are doing good work, treatment centers that are helping their community. and I get to be kind of like a little bit on the sidelines and kind of just jump in and assist programs and
helping them increase their capacity to reach more people in their community. That’s a tr I mean when it comes to like on my on my LinkedIn I’m um kind of coined this dorky little name like software slinging cowboy, you know, I’m from from Oklahoma. I I don’t know if I consider myself a cowboy, but it’s fun. But I think your sum total impact through Sunwave and this business development opportunity is much larger. Much larger cuz like even our program, we’re not you’re not even a client, but we will be but like what what you’re going to do from an operational I talked about it last night from an operational excellence perspective. You know, I had 12 companies doing what Sunwave is about to do a year ago is just extraordinary an extraordinary lift. And from an operational perspective, it’s messy. It’s dirty. Uh from a billing perspective, from a client retention, from a alumni, from an AR, from all the things that go into it. And some people don’t think like, well, this is serving others. Well, we we serve people. You guys serve great companies. And you help us be more efficient, more dialed in so that we can serve more people. And it’s interesting, too, because the people that you all hang out with are doing good work. And for the most part, the people that I’ve met, you know, they’re they’re putting their best foot forward. And I think that says something not only about the Sunwave team, what they’ve created, but your existence was within that platform, which is really, really special. It’s just another lens to look through. That’s what drew me to the company in the first place. Mhm. Um, what drew me to Sunwave in the first place was the people that were working there. Yeah. They met with they met me with such authenticity. Mhm. And so, yeah, I’ve stepped into software sales, which I never really imagined myself in software sales. Like, I’d go to these conferences and I’d be like, that’s a software fella. We got no proof. We’re going to dodge that guy cuz we know I know what’s coming. I’m going to have to tell him no. I don’t really want to tell him no. Um that’s so funny. Sometimes I want to say things and I don’t and it’s good. Yeah, fair enough. You can’t say that. I can’t say that. Fair enough, dude. Fair enough. No, but the Sunway people, they’re looking great. They were they were really just their their impression on me was impressive. And so like as somebody that’s coming from direct care to software sales, um I feel that I bring this like different kind of like a I feel like I’m bringing a unique value to this. Like I want to create the community necessary around us to build not just the company, not just Sunwave. Dude, when we rise, I want everybody that we’re helping to rise with us. I want to create this type of community around us that builds into something that is worthy of reaching the people that we’re trying to help because it’s not siloed. What I do isn’t siloed. Yeah. What I do in my field isn’t doesn’t stop at just helping an organization like Peaks. Peaks helps people. Peaks helps the community of Colorado Springs. Peaks helps one of my good friend you know Peaks helped one of my good friends back in Oklahoma like the reach is extensive if you don’t take it seriously like that if you don’t like if we don’t sit with the people that we’re supporting in a way that’s like hey we want to make sure that you have what you need to be successful and you’re right dude I think right now I think right I think in the in our field we kind of got sucked into this well you need this tool and you need this tool and you need this tool you need a tool to track your admissions you need a tool to track your marketing. What about billing? Well, we need two tools there and we got to do AR and we got to do billing. Uh, we need to track all of our financial piece. So, now we need like a financial module or whatever. Um, of course, we need our EMR to track clinical documentation, but what about our AI now? Now, we need another piece for AI. Yeah, dude. And we just got sucked into this as an industry. We got sucked into this idea that I got and then they open companies like what would be synonymous? just can’t say their company name. But then they open companies that just literally link it all together. Dude, it’s another company. You know how But where they were so efficient in like just tying it all off for you, you know? It’s a It’s a while, man. But you know how to me the other day? Frankenstein still looks like a person. He sure does. But Frankenstein ain’t so do our cell phone towers, man. Which weren’t built for this type of They’re like, “Those things are leaning over.” Meanwhile, Eli must got satellites in the sky. These things are like, you know, they’re not going to be here very long. So, it’s all that stuff, man. And that’s what inspired me about you guys and inspired me about the relationship. And as I told you guys last night, I don’t think I ever said this, but you know, I didn’t want to go to the dinner. Uh, but the way that you met me at the door and what you said to me was profound and I was like, “Man, get over your shit.” And I was able to sit down and settle. And it wasn’t because I don’t like engaging with people and having conversation, I was just in a very, very intense time in business and things were really uncertain. And so, in those moments, I tend to like really go inward and try and control all the controllables. Um, but I was grateful that I got outside of my comfort zone out that night because it’s been an extraordinary connection ever since. So much fun. Yeah, it’s been so cool, man. You’re really making a a footprint here in Colorado. We want to get you introduced to more people and it’s not necessarily about, you know, getting Sunwave introduced to this program. It’s about getting great people together to see what can come of it. It’s about building bridges. Yeah, man. It’s about connecting people to people. Yeah. It’s that passion, dude. When you have when you have somebody that’s doing great work, like I said, I’ve already said this, but when you have somebody doing great work and they’re doing like phenomenal treatment and they’re reaching people where they’re at in the community, and then you have somebody else that’s offering a different type of service and you connect those two people, dude, you just built a bridge that so many people can cross. So many people can cross that bridge and so many relation, new relationships can be built off that. I mean, like with TJ, excuse me, with TJ, that connection is beginning to blossom. Like I met, you introduced me to him at the winter symposium. Now we’re connecting here at this like crazy cool workshop in Purple Mountain. Yeah. And him and Dustin have really hit it off, you know. That’s cool. Both from the Bay Area. What I love, you remember back Dustin remember cuz he’s probably my age about maybe younger. Um, so we used to do these things back in the day in elementary school where we would do these time capsules. Yeah. And we would write, right? Because you couldn’t just do a podcast and record it and like just pull it up later. So we do these time caps and we bury it in the ground and then like 20 years later you come and you open it up and you’re like Becky said she was going to marry Corey. It’s this crazy thing. Well, now we got Finding Peaks and we got a podcast. So, if I were to ask you and I want to encapsulate the show with this because maybe we’ll be able to bring it back up in a decade, but like if I were to say like with your understanding and awareness that people like us generally sell themselves short, especially we’re not present, but if I were to ask you what where you want to be in the next 10 years, not just as a but as a professional uh and a human like what would you what would be a beautiful setting? here to you.
Where do I want to be? Who do I think I’d want to be?
I want to be somebody that leads troops into battle. I want to be at the spirit. I want to pave the way for people who are saying, “I don’t know where to go. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know who I am.” I want to make sure that when somebody is reaching out for help, they have a clear pathway to that help. Mhm. Whether it be that person that’s struggling on the street, whether that be a newly found program in our community that’s trying to build legs underneath them, whether it be a fully established program in our country, may want to do better work. I want to be able to I want to be that person that paves the way as the spear tip into a brighter and a bigger and brighter future.
where the people that are asking for help, they have that help. Mhm. I think there’s probably a deeper answer in there somewhere.
But I love that answer. There’s another one. Here we go. There’s another one that I want to be. All my life has been like wicked chaotic, you know, like growing up. My parents got divorced fairly young, split home. Um, high school was I had like a 1.7 GPA, not because of a lack of intelligence, because of just a lack of give a [  ] Yeah. And um like and then straight into addiction right after high school and then recovery. That’s chaotic in its own self, you know? I think in 10 years I want to have my wife, my kiddos, a beautiful home. I want to be happy with what I have. Mhm. That’s being rocketed into the fourth dimension. Yeah. Right underneath where your feet are. I want to be somebody that can be present with my feet. Not worried about this. Not worried about the the status quo. Not wor Mhm. Just content. I love that, man. Just content. Cuz I guess if you can be where your feet are, you’ll know that you had it all along. It’s already there. And and I think that’s the cool thing and the profound thing for me about what you said initially was like don’t forget the moment to celebrate because what you want you have and you will continue to grow. But it’s right here, you know, and it’s a beautiful freaking thing. It’s right here right now. Yeah, man. Thanks for coming on my podcast, dude. Dude, thanks for having me. So nice connecting just shooting the [  ] I was coming over here like this going to be great. You know, I don’t interview a lot of people that like make me structure anything in any sort of way. Sometimes docs and stuff like can you put it on board, you know, but I love just connected, man. I love what you’re doing for the community. I love seeing you out here. I love seeing the Sunwave guys. Looking forward to a long-standing relationship and just one day at a time like big hearts, big smiles, full focus, feet on the ground. Grateful to know you, my friend. I’m grateful to know you, buddy. Thanks for letting me sit on my I’m glad my first podcast ever was with you. So that was great. Yeah, dude. First one. Cool, man. We try to keep it light in here, man. Yeah. Cool. It was a good time. Awesome, man. Well, from Oklahoma to you, peers, everybody, thanks for coming through. Until next time, please check us out. You know where to find us. Stay blessed, my beautiful people. Peace. See you.

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris sits with Peaks Recovery Centers’ Director of Operations, Tyler Kea, for a grounded and insightful conversation on what operational excellence truly means in the world of recovery. Tyler shares his journey from case management to leadership, offering a behind-the-scenes look at how structure, consistency, and intentional systems directly impact client care. Together, they explore the philosophy of “chop wood, carry water” and how mastering the fundamentals creates lasting change, both personally and professionally. The conversation also dives into Peaks’ evolving intake process, the role of personal experience in shaping leadership style, and why perspective is one of the most powerful tools in recovery and in life. Tyler opens up with a personal update and message, while Chris reflects on an experience that continues to shape his approach today.

Clients that are coming into our care need structure. Maybe they’re coming from an environment that doesn’t have much of that. The opposite of addiction is connection. Well, the opposite of disrupted and disconnected mental health is also connection, right? Like they won’t do the bad thing if we give them the good thing. I just I get to be there. I get to be present. I can’t solve everyone’s problems, right? That’s all their owns to figure out. But at least I can sit with you in it. Peaks is a special place. is different.
Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks Recovery Centers. Your host. Grateful to be here today. Christopher Burns, president, founder, CEO, recovery cheerleader. I’m just on fire today. I’m really on fire about 2026. I’m on fire about raising the standard of care within Peak’s Recovery. Um the internal standards are are raising. The vibration is raising. I can feel it. I just came from the facility celebrating a lot of wins today. Um but one of the biggest wins right now is uh how we’re pursuing operational excellence. It’s something very near and dear to my heart and something that uh I struggle to connect, but Tyler’s been with us right around five or six years now. He’s now our director of operations. I have Tyler on the show today. Grateful to have you, sir. How you doing? Good, man. Thank you. Awesome, man. When I say operational excellence, um, what does that mean for you and what does that mean for Peaks Recovery? For me, it’s just plain and simple, structure. Mhm. It’s just structure. Um, all around. If I if I connect this to my own recovery journey, I need a structure to begin with, right? Clients that are coming into our care need structure. Maybe they’re coming from an environment that doesn’t have much of that. Mhm. Right. So, they come to us and they expect structure. So, if we create that operational excellence around our treatment center, that’s all it is is structure. And clients feel that. Yeah, I agree. It’s interesting what you say about clients feeling that we have um I think we’ve been producing excellent outcomes for years, but one of the things that I was always kind of sad to hear when I came down to the discharge table with these families that were so grateful um and these are families that had spent quite a bit of money with us and walked through the family program and been with us a considerable amount of time. something they would always harp on um is this was excellent care. I don’t know how you guys do what you do. Really awesome. Grateful to have my loved one back, but boy, you’re unorganized. Yeah. You know, and I and I admit that humbly and proudly. And so inserting you into that role is something that you’re very very passionate about through the structure of your recovery because it not only informs operational excellence, but like safety, right? And that’s an undertone kind of vibration for people that’s hard to quantify you know from an operational perspective. So grateful to have you in that role man. How has the transition been from case management? What have you brought from case management? That’s cuz case management is like connected with everything. Yeah. You know you get you get bird’s eye view into everything. How are you taking what you learned in case management integrating it into the operational side of things? Well, I was just speaking about this before we started here. Um, with case management, you know, we’re managing the clients, we’re managing the case load. You step into the operational role and now we’re managing staff. So, not that much of a difference, right? It’s just on a bigger playing field, more bird’s eye view. Um, as a case manager, yeah, you dip into every department because you’re connecting with the client, you’re connecting with the provider, the therapist, even outside organizations. So you get that bird’s eye view of how everything operates, right? Um, and for me it’s like, okay, maybe this can be tweaked, maybe this can be tweaked. I think this could flow a lot better. So stepping into this role, I get to actually implement it and play it out. Mhm. Yeah. It’s really cool when you could kind of like zoom out, right? It’s kind of like an org chart game, if you will, to make sure the right people are in the right decisions. And it’s interesting today because you know we often get stuck in a phrase I think in our industry and in business in general about you know a year ago we went through layoffs but I was talking more about optimization. I wasn’t necessarily talking about cutting the team, even though that was a little bit about what the story was in community, but it was it was really about client care and an emphasis on optimization and the integration thereof, right? When you have too many people in too many places, we can’t do the work necessary or the work in front of us and we can’t adhere to the job description. So, having you come in and really fit that well, right, um creates teams and systems that can do the job and perform at a high level. Yeah. Yeah. And then I mean we can always tie this back to recovery, right? Um you know for for myself coming out of treatment, go to AA meetings, do this, do that, meet with this person, go to this, go to that, right? So it’s throwing a bunch of things at you, right? When really we just need to stick to the foundation, right? Stick to the foundation which is therapy and working on myself, right? time for myself, meditation, setting up that morning structure and routines, things like that. Really the foundation. We don’t need all this extra things. It might look nice, it might feel nice, but I feel like that just operates on emotion. Yeah. Right. This doesn’t feel right, so let’s throw this at it. When really it’s just it’s foundation and structure. Yeah. You bring up something really cool in regards to leadership in in the way that we show up like consistently. Yeah. And that is something that early recovery really teaches you is is is to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and then do it over and over and over and then when you’re done with that do it over and over and over, right? We’re very very good at that. Yeah. It’s like indoctrinated and ingrained into the foundation of our being. Yeah. You know, so coming into that role and some of the best operators I know, man, are in long-term recovery. They just see it clearly. There’s this uh phrase, I’m not even going to try and say who, maybe it’s a Buddhist phrase. I’ve said it on the show before. You’ve probably heard it, but it’s it essentially says when things are good, we chop wood and carry water. When things are bad, we chop wood and we carry water, right? We don’t we don’t stop. And that’s something that’s been really really cool for me in this season. And I’ve never been able to connect with that in any other season personally or professionally. What I used to do is I’d chop wood, carry water, and when things got good, I let someone else chop wood and carry water. Yep. But today, it’s this very cool thing in our director room and in our teams where we have people showing up one day at a time, chopping wood and carrying water. And even when things get good, we just chop wood and carry water. And then when they’re bad, we just chop wood and we carry water. And that’s the consistency that we’re talking about. Um, and that’s something that’s really been highlighted in this season for me, the benefit of that relentless approach to not just passion and purpose, but client care, dude. Yeah. You know, Yeah. And I mean, the way I’m approaching this is the main objective is the clients feel it. Mhm. Starting as a BHT, right? starting as a then a moving on to a case manager, you get the reports from the clients, right? Different reports than as a director now that I get from clients. When you’re on the ground level, you hear, you know, kind of the truth from the clients. And you know, and it it seemed it seemed all over the place if I’m just being honest. Yeah. Um we would ask the same question to six different people, get six different answers, and that’s fine. It’s it’s not a reflection on the staff that we have. It’s just a reflection on the system, right? Um and so just making something solid and structured in the time of good time, the time of bad time. This is what we do and this is what we do always. It’s not proactive. Yeah. You know. Yep. Yeah. That’s a really really good thing. It’s um we’ve been so reactive in the past, right? You know, and and that decreases safety. Yep. Um it decreases connection. And and it’s really important, too, is I say it all the time on the show. It’s just like I just want to keep bringing it up because I don’t hear people talk about it enough, but like people are making the most courageous decision of their lives. They’re trusting strangers with their care, right? They’re walking in to live with you, right? Like that’s got to be a magical moment that matters. It really does, dude. We better know what we’re doing. Mhm. Yeah. you shared something really cool before the show and it’s like it’s I I talked about the small victory that we that we had but you maybe you talk about it like you you had the opportunity to sit with the guests you’ve been to seven or eight programs probably all substance abuse treatment centers you Yeah. Yeah. So what we did with our intake process, right, uh the initial intake, client walks in, we greet the guest. Um what we did was remove all the administrative task in that that first hour that the client is on the property, right? And we really just connect and we ground. Often times we see the guests coming in with their family. So we get to connect that way, right? Because not only is it scary for the guests, it’s also scary for the family, right? They’re handing over their loved one to us in our care. Mhm. Right. So, if we can just sit down in that our new intake room, nice. Got some water fountains going on. There you go. Um, it calms them, right? It’s not here, sign this, sign that. Here’s a policy for this. Here’s a policy for that. Right? And so, this guest that we’re talking about just kind of explained, hey, I’ve been to seven or eight treatment programs and this is the smoothest intake process I’ve been a part of. I think he also mentioned, I feel like you guys really know what you’re doing and it’s just that connection piece, right? And that’s where operations can step in, right? How do we make this go a lot smoother? Yeah. Not only for the staff, but for the client. And when we pull back and we see the whole system laid out, we see the client’s journey. Yeah. Right. We see any bottlenecks, we see any hiccups, any friction. Client will usually get stuck here. Why don’t we take out all the intake forms and move it later? Right. Right. We just hit the essentials right now and the client feels that and now we got proof of that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a huge deal and it feels so simple, but it’s like, you know, like let’s fix the light in here, right? Let’s have a little water thing, man. Let’s get some distilled water in the corner. Let’s do simple [  ] Let’s not have a computer, not a desk. Let’s not block the energy. Let’s sit on the couch. Let’s be a real human. Let’s get an iPad. Let them know, “Yeah, I got some [  ] here. We got to sign it.” But like otherwise, like this is is your show, right? Sure. Sean, I’m here for you, right? I’m going to serve you, right, man? That would be a diabolically different experience than I had when I walked into treatment. And the program I went to, I thought was really great. You know, it’s just those small things, man. Integrate humans in a deep way. And if we go back to like 2018, I think it was 2018 when Simon Synynic came out with the opposite of addiction is connection. Well, the opposite of disrupted and disconnected mental health is also connection, right? like they won’t do the bad thing if we give them the good thing, right? We got to work hard to show them that it’s still a good and valuable thing in their life, right? Because prior to coming into care, and most providers know this, but they’ve been disconnected, isolated, and at times felt like they’ve been thrown away. Yeah. So, we have this very novel experience and opportunity to cultivate something real special. Right. And then, I don’t know about you, but for me, then I get to spend the best 30 days of someone’s life with them. Yeah. you know, and it’s rocking. Yeah, we’re doing it. So, yeah. And I I think it’s a plus, you know, myself, even yourself, you know, coming from this background, right? Like we get it. We’ve been through that journey. And like speaking for myself, it like when I was using it was mostly like nobody wants to hear me, nobody cares about me, what do I have to say? You know, you’re thrown to the gutter. Yeah. Maybe not like literally, but that’s sure feels that way. Feels like it, right? So, for a guest to enter onto our property and the first thing we do is just sit down and connect with you. Mhm. Like that’s a game changer. Like this this place is different. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. When you said that, I’m I was almost thinking in my head like, what can we do like one more additional thing to make it even better? You know, what if it was like admissions? I love that we’re solving this problem on the podcast. Um, what if it was like admissions on the front end, you know, what’s your favorite coffee? What’s your favorite tea? What’s your favorite snack and like with the journal? Like you got your fig newtons or whatever. You know, I mean, just like small thing. Hey, admissions told me that you like cake donuts and so I had the team go out. They grab some donuts for everybody anyway. Yeah. I got you a blueberry cake donut. So, here’s a cake donut. Here’s the process. It’s like something small that like matters to the individual, right? Y I think it’d be pretty cool. Yeah. And then they’re like, “Holy [ __ ] dude. I had my favorite thing and I’m and I’m potentially going through one of the worst experiences of my life.” That’s that’s comforting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have I had clients like, let’s use Bob, for example, as a name, you know? Hey, what’s up, Bob? How you doing? You know my name? Yeah, I know your name, man. You know, so like just that little piece of knowing someone’s name that you never met before. He never met me, right? But the way that made Bob feel Yeah. Right. special. So, yeah. I mean, if it’s we have their favorite drink or we have their favorite snack on hand like that, I mean, that takes it to another level. Mhm. That’s what we get to do in an intimate setting. Yeah. I uh I don’t envy having 200 beds um and not remembering people’s names. And I I think it’s um maybe it’s valuable to us, should be valuable to other providers. Um but somewhere along the way it’s it’s lost a little bit of value and that makes me really sad. Yeah. Like we don’t know our guest. We have too many people in care that I I’m sorry but I can’t remember your name. Right. I just feel like a number the same way they felt before coming into treatment. Mhm. Right. So, if we’re trying to disrupt that and change that, then we can’t represent what they’ve been feeling outside of our doors. It has to be a different feeling as soon as they walk in. Yeah. Yeah. And boy, what a what a simple yet really beneficial tool. Connection, kindness, and compassion are. Yeah. They’re so simple. And actually, they might be better than any like therapeutic tool. You’re going to actually learn within your graduate program because when you anchor people in a space, they get present. When people get present, they get purposeful. When people get pres purposeful, they get hope, right? When people like us get hope, people like the people down on our campus get hope. You better watch out, man. Yeah. Knock down. The world on fire. Yeah. You know, so it’s beautiful stuff, man. How’s it been for your family? You know, you’re in recovery. You You’re married now or you’re engaged? Engaged. You’re engaged. Yeah. He never asked you if she said yes. She said yes. Yeah. Well, obviously after thinking it was a joke for maybe the first 10 minutes. Oh my gosh. You’re like, “No, no, no. It was real. Cut.” Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool, man. What has it been like as a you know, a a man, a provider, a father, a human in recovery? You know, you start out just trying to like sketch this thing and you know, before you know it and with a lot of hard work, you’re in a position that may maybe you didn’t think you’d be or maybe you thought you’d be or maybe you’re happy you’d be, but what has it been like for the family? Like you have a daughter and a wife and brother and people back in Hawaii. Yeah. I mean, for the for them, I feel like I’m I give them somebody to look up to now. Right. Which is which has not been a thing for a long time. Mhm. Right. I would say I was probably the one that you don’t want to be like you see him don’t do that. Yeah. Right. So now like that whole narrative has switched. Right. Um I just I get to be there. I get to be present. I can’t solve everyone’s problems, right? That’s all their owns to figure out. But at least I can sit with you in it, right? I can pick you up. We can go to lunch. We can go to dinner. Um, and that’s that’s the biggest piece for me is that I can just I can be there and provide the support. Yeah. And it’s consistent. Yeah. And Yeah. It just it just goes back to the structure thing, right? like as a as a provider like I’ve I’ve always felt like it needed to be financial. Mhm. Right. This is what my dad did for me and my brothers, right? The provider you provide financially. Mhm. But it’s it’s a lot more than that. Yeah. Right. It’s providing stability, right? Providing presence, providing that when I show up or when I come home from practice, I know dad is going to be home. Mhm. I know dad is going to be outside of the door at that gym every time I finish practice. Mhm. Right. So, it’s stability. And I mean, it’s five, six years ago, man. I I I could not imagine this right now. Mhm. Not even close. It was It wasn’t even It wasn’t even a dream. Yeah. You couldn’t You couldn’t have dreamt it. Not at all. Yeah. It’s a cool thing, man. stay long enough in this thing, you show up and you chop wood and carry water one day at a time. Yeah. Life will just just blow you away, right? Wildest dreams beyond it will blow you away. I did this thing one time. I moved from and maybe may have said this on the podcast coup um but I did this thing right because I’m like six years into the field about to get my undergraduate degree in counseling but then this opportunity to go do peaks opens up and I remember I bought cuz I had it like that I was buying stuff on Amazon and I bought these coffee filters. Have I ever told you this story? No. And I bought these coffee filters and it was cheaper to buy 24 of them but you only replace a coffee filter every month. So, I set the reminder and I place cough filter every month. But I’m packing it in a box out of my rental home. Okay. Leaving Prescat, Arizona. And I thought to myself, I wonder will uh I haven’t told this story in a while. Um I wonder where I’ll be when I put this last coffee filter in. Like I’m I’m a program director of this program. I’m running this program. Doing this thing. Finished up my degree. I’m moving. I’m making money. I’m doing the thing. I’m about to open a program. Yeah. all these things. And I thought to myself, well, I wonder what it’ll be. Yeah. And boy, I was in a the first piece of real estate I ever owned when I opened that box. And it was uh about 8 months later. Yeah. And I thought to myself, boy, boy, I’ll just let this universe take control because I will sell myself short every time, man. Right. I will sell myself short. And every day of this chopping wood and carrying water and serving the world thing, things just get a little bit better. Yeah. You know, as I draw nearer and dearer to the things that matter, which are the simple free things, right? I love what you said about money cuz I thought too was this money thing. Man, I got to share this on the podcast cuz like you don’t get the opportunity to sit in front of somebody who’s 82 years old very often who has a life experience and successful kids and serve the country in the military. Well, I met with them yesterday and I met with them last week and I’m just like feed me, bro. So, I asked him I was like, “Yo, well, cuz kids are real successful, man. They all got degrees and some are dating or married to like authors and actors.” I was like, “Bro, yeah.” I said, ‘Who’s your most successful kid? And he goes, right away, he goes, “The happiest or who has the most money?” And I was like, “Boy, 82 years later, he said it.” I said, “Oh, the one who is the happiest.” He said, “Yeah, he’s got this. He’s got that. He’s got this. He’s got that. He’s got this. He’s got that.” My other boy, they’re happy, man. They’re good. They have good lives. Yep. But he’s happiest. Yeah. Yeah. And I just thought that was really really profound. Um because I I I don’t think like I’m not calling for the absence of of monetary goods or anything like that. I think it’s a solid foundation. But we can learn a lot in the absence of those things, you know. Yeah. Right. So that we have real
presence for what’s on the other side. Real reverence. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean with the absence of it, you got to you got to find ways to be creative and connect without it, right? And like I mean I I have big ambitions, right? Like I I strive high and I shoot high. Mhm. But at the same time like I’m happy where we live right now. Yeah. Right. It’s a small place. It’s tight and it’s fine. If I move to a bigger spot, I might look back on this time and be like, “Man, I wish we could all just sit on the couch and be together.” Yeah. I miss how our rooms were so close together. Mhm. You know, so like in every moment like that, I’m sure there will be times where I can look back and be like, “Man, I miss that.” Even though when it was happening, it was like, “I can’t wait to get out of this.” Yeah. Tired of parking in this parking lot. Yeah, man. You know, so it’s interesting you say that, man. We have a pretty good size house and we’re always like the next one the next one can be half the size. Yeah. Like we all just hang out up here anyway. Yeah. We don’t we don’t need all that, right? It’s funny you say that too cuz I remember one time I picked your brother up to go to jiu-jitsu and I was talking with him like you like this area. He’s like, “Bro, this is so nice. Look at this pl bro. Look at this place.” You know, we’re like, “Man, I need to give me a new spot.” You It’s just like when you can zoom out, man, you get a different perspective. You’re like, “Oh, yeah. You’ve seen where I used to live, huh? Yep. Yep. There’s actual sidewalks now. Huge ones, man. Yeah. Really huge ones. I don’t love, you know, and I want to put this out there cuz I haven’t said it in a while. I don’t love running on the sidewalks. It’s bad for you. Not. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not good. You ever have any like sort of like glute injury back here and you go from like asphalt and then you go on the sidewalk, it’s like you could feel it. You feel the difference. Definitely. It doesn’t have I don’t I I don’t know what the scientific situation is behind it, but it doesn’t have shock absorbers, right? Whatever that is. Right. Right. You know, so Well, let me ask you this. If you had a plan for the next year, like what what type of plan would make you proud personally and professionally? Like what is what is executing Tyler’s goals look like this year outside of becoming a winning the lottery or whatever? Winning the lottery. I played the lottery. That would be play lottery. I played lottery twice. You play lottery? Play lottery. It was probably like 600 million. Yeah, it was insane. Yeah, dude. Take a 30 minute on that. Think about that for a moment. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I guess outside of winning the lottery. Yeah. I think it’s just to continue the balance that I have with my family. Mhm. Right. Um, and balance is like a hard word to define. I mean, some days it’s work, right? Some days you can chill and you can relax, maybe watch a movie. Mhm. Um, so balance is hard to define, but it’s just I want to continue to be there for my family. Mhm. Um, haven’t missed one of my daughter’s volleyball tournaments yet. Um, I want to continue that. Right. So, like with this new role and with the ambition that I have, with the changes that I want to make, that we want to make, um, I can I can get lost in it, right? And I can there’s there’s days where I I just love to stay in the office till 7:00 p.m. just, right, and not come out when it’s dark. Arrive dark, leave dark. Yeah, I love that. Right. And I can get I can get stuck in that, right? So, my goal is to just remain the dad that I’ve always been. Mhm. Despite all these external things that are changing. Yep. I like that, man. You got to bring him up the hill with you. Yeah. You got to bring them up the hill. That’s one thing I learned as a young entrepreneur was I got up, I was scaling this mountain, scaling it, scaling the [  ] out of it, and then I got nobody was there. Yeah. Bring them with you. Yep. You know, I like that goal. I’m really um you know I was driving over here and I was thinking I was like you know what I am just so excited. I’m so excited. I’m so pumped up. And then a thought came into my mind. I was like why Chris? You don’t even pay yourself. And I was like you [  ] better man. Let’s go. You know like I let’s go. We we are in the rhythm. We are in the groove. And frankly it feels like we’re just getting started here in year 12. Yeah. You know grateful to have you in the position you’re in. so grateful to have you on the show. Um, anything you want to say to the people before we exit here? I know I put you on the spot like that. I would just say it like and it’s it’s hard to say it right because I I talk to clients about this all the time too and it’s it’s hard to get your point across because yeah, I work for Peaks and I’m an employee there, right? And like whenever I say like Peaks is a special place, it’s different. Mhm. Right. So, it’s hard to push it because I work there, but it is, you know, and just the the connection that is there, you know, I see the behavioral health techs, right? Just connecting with clients, right? You got an issue. You’re not just a number. We’re not just going to pass you off. We’ll take the time to figure this out with you. Mhm. Um, and either even in leadership and you know, as a director, if there’s anything that we miss, we’ll own up to it, right? Like I know other programs that would be and put it back on the client if something is missed. Mhm. Right. Like hey, yeah, this is our fault. It’s something we missed. We’ll we’ll make sure we get this handled. Yeah. You know, and it’s the little things like that. It’s just treating people like people and not just a number and not hurting them through any program. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s what I would want to say about Peaks that everyone everyone cares there. Everyone has their story that they’re leaking out into their work. Yeah, I love that, man. And they’ve found a way to do it in a really synchronized, efficient way, right? Cuz in the past it was like, let me just sit under this tree and do this thing. And yeah, it’s fine. But now it’s in the flow. It’s just built and packed into the flow are these touch points that you’re talking about. And I love that you mentioned the BHTs, too. We got to get them on a show. I was talking with uh Tyler about it before the before we got on here. I was like, he’s like, “Why don’t you get these people on?” And I was like, honestly, I I’ve been talking with them about it for a couple months. They’re just so valuable on campus. I don’t want them to come down here. But we got to get them on, man. Because your point is solid from the ground level troops. Often times a position that’s overlooked, underpaid, and overworked. Yeah. Is now being attuned with, seen, valued, and heard in peaks in a really, really cool way. And the output we’re getting on the ground level by those freaking warriors, right? Is something fierce, right? You know. Yeah. And that’s powerful, man. Yeah. Because we’re very reliant on them in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Across the board. Yep. So, well, all right, y’all. Okay, man. Man, let’s wrap this up and let’s get back to saving lives one day at a time. Yeah. Grateful to have you on. We’ll have you on again. Definitely going to get the BHTs on here shortly. Some of the team members, man, talk about how they’re rocking and moving throughout the day. Uh again, appreciate you. Until next time. Perfect. Thanks, Chris. Yo, people, check us out. Podcast, YouTube, you know the drill. Until next time, stay beautiful and blessed. Peace.