FINE is a 4-Letter Word

In 1988, Diana Keough came home for Christmas for the first time in three years. She was married, she had a six-month-old baby, and she was determined to finally build the kind of relationship with her mother she had watched her friends enjoy. Within weeks, her family learned that her father, a trial attorney and pillar of a fundamentalist Baptist community, had AIDS and had been living a double life for 27 years. Three weeks later, her mother tested positive for HIV.

Diana was trained as a journalist, so she did what journalists do. With her mother's permission, she dropped a tape recorder into her purse before her mother confronted her father in the hospital, and she kept recording. Over the next six years she gathered more than 100 hours of interviews with both parents, their caregivers, and her mother's psychiatrist, trying to understand the people who had raised her inside so many secrets.

In this conversation, Diana tells Lori what it took to forgive a mother who had been cruel, to keep loving a father who had been her North Star and had also lied, and to reconcile with five siblings who split into Team Mom and Team Dad and went years without speaking. It is a conversation about truth-telling, the grace families rarely offer each other in a crisis, and why she ultimately decided her story had no victims and no villains.

What You'll Take Away

• Why Diana started recording her parents in 1988, and what 100 hours of tape revealed about two people she thought she knew
• How learning her parents' own childhoods helped her see them as broken people rather than only as the source of her pain
• Why the silence in an interview, or a hard conversation, often gets you closer to the truth than the next question
• How six siblings who went years without speaking found their way back, through a Sunday morning book club that became "a reconciliation in real time"
• What it means to tell a painful family story so that there are no victims and no villains

Guest Bio

Diana Keough is an award-winning journalist whose work has appeared in The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer, on NPR, and on PBS. Named AP Ohio Reporter of the Year, she has won roughly thirty journalism awards across print and radio. She holds an MFA in narrative nonfiction from the University of Georgia's Grady College, where she teaches, and writes the monthly column "Between Sundays" for Salvation South. Not From a Nice Family, her reported memoir podcast produced with Campside Media for Audible, is her first podcast.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

00:00 Opening and episode premise

01:29 Growing up fundamentalist Baptist in Elm Grove, Wisconsin

02:32 Leaving Bob Jones University, and the mother who stopped speaking to her

03:47 Coming home in 1988 hoping to finally connect with her mom

04:54 The diagnosis that exposed her father's 27-year double life

05:50 Why a journalist put a tape recorder in her mother's purse

07:48 Seeing her parents as broken people, and the abuse she had to forgive

11:00 Team Mom vs. Team Dad: how six siblings split apart

13:13 Why both parents agreed to be recorded

17:54 The interviewer's best tool: staying silent

19:22 A marriage her mother never wanted, and her father's side of the story

23:41 National media, and her father becoming a leader in Cincinnati

25:55 "The six of us is the only club I ever wanted to be a member of"

27:07 Thirty years of boxes, 33 cassettes, and full transparency with her siblings

30:15 No victims, no villains, and the Sunday calls that became the ending

33:05 Her hype song: "Brave" by Sara Bareilles

33:45 Where to listen to Not From a Nice Family and connect with Diana

Resources Mentioned

• Podcast: Not From a Nice Family by Diana Keough, an Audible Original produced with Campside Media (search "Not From a Nice Family" on Audible; Audible subscription required)
• Column: "Between Sundays" by Diana Keough at Salvation South - https://www.salvationsouth.com/author/diana-keough/
• Hype Song: "Brave" by Sara Bareilles - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUQsqBqxoR4&list=RDQUQsqBqxoR4&start_radio=1

Connect With Diana Keough

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diana-keough-a354646/

Instagram: @dianakeyo (https://www.instagram.com/dianakeyo/)

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61557124244395

Twitter/X: @dikeough (https://x.com/dikeough)

Podcast: Not From a Nice Family (Audible Original; search the title on Audible)

Continue With Lori

Website: https://zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

Zen Rabbit

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 239: One Drop of Water and a Dying Plant with Cyndy Etler

Another conversation about telling the truth of a difficult upbringing in a strict, controlling environment, and turning that story into a memoir.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine.

We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine.

Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.

If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Research & Sources

• Diana describes the high doses of AZT her mother received in the early 1990s and notes that the "AIDS cocktail" arrived after her mother's death in 1994. Combination antiretroviral therapy became the standard of care in 1996, following the approval of protease inhibitors, and early AZT monotherapy was given at higher doses than later regimens. Source: "HIV Treatment Paradigm Shifts over the Past 40 Years," PMC - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12749152
• Diana's statement that only four AIDS hospices existed in 1988 is presented as her recollection, not as an independently verified figure.

On September 6, 1997, the day of Princess Diana's funeral, Jobert Abueva couldn't get out of bed. He was in a Hong Kong hotel room, paralyzed for the better part of 48 hours, unable to touch the club sandwich or hot tea he'd ordered, crying from exhaustion, loneliness, and homesickness. It was, he says, the lowest point of a career that from the outside looked like nothing but success.

For most of his thirties, Jobert had been living the frenzied pace of a global marketing career, opening new markets for Herbal Essences across Europe, the Middle East, and Asia, jumping from country to country in a matter of months, taking calls with U.S. headquarters at all hours. He got the raises and the next plum assignment. He also got the lack of sleep, the overeating, the overdrinking, and the signals he kept ignoring, until his body simply stopped.

In this conversation, Jobert tells Lori how a childhood memory of Janus, the two-faced Roman god of beginnings and endings, surfaced in that hotel room and became the seed of a framework he now calls the Janus Plan. It's a conversation about what happens when you finally stop outrunning burnout, why looking backward is what makes it possible to move forward, and why boundaries only stick the second time you build them on purpose.

What You'll Take Away

• Why ignoring burnout signals for years eventually catches up with even the highest performers
• How a childhood memory of the Roman god Janus reframed Jobert's understanding of endings and beginnings
• Why 'ponder the past' before 'frame the future' makes goals more sustainable than New Year's resolutions
• How setting boundaries the second time around, including turning down future expat assignments and developing a team instead of doing everything himself, reshaped his second corporate career
• Why any personal threshold, not just January 1st, can be the start of a meaningful new chapter

Guest Bio

Jobert E. Abueva grew up between four Asian countries and went on to a three-decade global marketing and philanthropy career, including launching Herbal Essences into international markets. He is a TEDx speaker, a Lambda Literary Prize recipient, and the author of The Janus Plan: A No-Resolutions Path to Begin Your Year with Intention. He lives in New Hope, Pennsylvania.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

00:00 Opening and episode premise

00:39 The nomadic childhood that shaped a global career

07:09 Launching Herbal Essences across Europe, the Middle East, and Asia

10:55 The signals he ignored: exhaustion, overwork, and a frenzied pace

12:00 September 6, 1997: the Hong Kong hotel room he couldn't leave

15:48 A childhood memory of Janus reframes everything

20:15 Ponder the past, frame the future: leaving corporate to write

24:13 Setting boundaries the second time around

26:05 The Janus Plan: a no-resolutions path to a new year

34:24 His hype song and the moment it found him

36:17 Where to find Jobert and the invitation to 'be like Janus'

Resources Mentioned

• Book: The Janus Plan: A No-Resolutions Path to Begin Your Year with Intention by Jobert E. Abueva
• Jobert's 2023 boyhood memoir (referenced in conversation; title to be confirmed with Jobert's team before publication)
• Hype Song: "You Get What You Give" by New Radicals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL7-CKirWZE&list=RDDL7-CKirWZE&start_radio=1

Connect With Jobert Abueva

Website: https://joberteabueva.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jobertabueva/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joberteabueva/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joberteabueva/

Book: https://amzn.to/477VkA7

Continue With Lori

Website: https://zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

Zen Rabbit

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine.

We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine.

Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode.

If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

John Azar fled Syria at 16 in the middle of a civil war, arrived in Charlotte, North Carolina not speaking a word of English, and eventually built his way to an MBA in finance and a career in commercial real estate. Then came 2008. His first company collapsed with no clients, no money, and a brand new baby at home.

He rebuilt, more than once. Along the way, his own therapist gave him a label he still carries: toxic optimist. He believes, almost unshakably, in people's capacity to change, and he's had to learn what that belief costs him when the other person never actually does the work.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, John talks with Lori Saitz about what failure actually means once you separate the event from the emotion attached to it, why he believes mastery requires periods of genuine imbalance, and what he tells business leaders facing circumstances completely outside their control.

What You'll Take Away

• Why believing in people's inherent goodness can work against you, according to what John's own therapist told him
• Why failure is whatever you decide it is, and why the event itself is different from the emotion you attach to it
• What John did in 2008 with no clients, no money, and a newborn at home, and what it teaches about controlling only what's actually yours to control
• Why sometimes the answer isn't what to add to your life, but what to stop doing
• Why mastery requires periods of genuine imbalance, and why that imbalance has to come in sustainable chunks rather than forever

Guest Bio

John Azar is a public speaker, coach, and founder. He speaks and coaches about entrepreneurship, resilience, and the myth surrounding balance and failure. He founded Peak15 Capital, a private equity firm specializing in commercial real estate, with talks drawing on two decades of deal-making, including work on a cumulative portfolio worth over $2 billion nationwide. Prior leadership roles at MACC Venture Partners and Boston Venture Partners, which he co-founded, round out his operating background, and he is also co-founder of Forja, an institutional-grade education and coaching ecosystem for commercial real estate investing and capital markets. He is a graduate of UNC Charlotte and Boston University's Questrom School of Business.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

01:25 The values he was raised with, and growing up the youngest of five in Syria

02:52 Growing up “raised by the wild,” and a childhood shaped by civil war

04:09 Immigrating to Charlotte, North Carolina at 16 with no English

05:32 The people who became his avatars: his father, brother, mother, and sisters

08:46 The term his therapist gave him: “toxic optimist”

10:53 Why failure is whatever you decide it is

14:14 His failed marriage, and what he's learned about facing himself

18:09 Building and closing multiple companies, including through the 2008 crisis

20:49 What to say to leaders facing circumstances completely outside their control

23:15 Commission and omission: sometimes the answer is what to stop doing

24:34 The daily practices that keep him grounded

25:00 Embracing imbalance as a requirement for mastery

31:04 The free diver metaphor: why imbalance has to come in chunks, not forever

32:27 The song that gets him going, and its unlikely origin

33:20 Where to find John: his coaching site and Peak 15 Capital

Resources Mentioned

• Company: Peak15 Capital — private equity firm specializing in commercial real estate
• Company: Forja — institutional-grade education and coaching ecosystem for CRE investing and capital markets, co-founded by John
• TV Show: Ballers (HBO) — the source of John's energy song
• Song: Right Above It by Lil Wayne and Drake — open.spotify.com/track/1kMuU3TNQvHbqvXCWBodmP

Connect With John Azar

Company: Peak15 Capital

Company: Forja

Website: johnazar.com

Website: peak15cap.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jalalazar

Instagram: @jjazar

Email: [email protected]

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 240: Amanda Van Der Heiden — on “win or learn,” her own reframe of failure that closely parallels John's view that failure is whatever you decide it is.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

How many things in your life are you currently trying to fix that aren't even yours to fix? An employee who isn't performing the way you want. A team member who keeps making the same mistake. A business problem you've been solving alone for years. A family member whose choices frustrate you. Your own tendency to overwork, overthink, and over-achieve.

Recording solo this week from Ideas Fest, a festival in a field about 45 minutes outside London with 6,000 other founders, entrepreneurs, and investors, Lori Saitz breaks down why fixing feels like responsibility but is actually about control, and why the exact instinct that made you successful as an individual contributor is often the thing holding your team, your family, or yourself back.

Drawing on conversations from four past episodes, a business owner who scaled by stepping back, a leader who reframed what it means to see people as more than resources, a guest who spent years achieving to prove his worth, and a founder who lost everything overnight through no fault of her own, Lori lays out a five-question test for telling the difference between fixing and leading, and what real trust actually requires you to give up.

What You'll Take Away

• Why fixing other people's problems is often less about helping them and more about maintaining a feeling of control
• The real difference between helping someone become more capable and rescuing them from ever having to be
• Why the skill that made you successful as an individual contributor can become the exact thing holding your organization back once you're leading others
• A five-question test to run before you jump in and solve a problem that was never yours to solve
• What “this is how it is now” actually means as a starting point for acceptance, not a form of giving up

Chapters & Key Timestamps

00:00 Opening: the cost of fixing things that aren't yours to fix

01:27 Recording solo from Ideas Fest in England

01:57 The things we try to fix that were never ours to fix

02:41 Why fixing feels like responsibility, but is often about control

03:10 The high-achiever hustle myth, and what it actually costs

03:37 You can only control your inputs, never the outcomes

04:08 The exact skill that gets you promoted becomes the thing holding your team back

04:39 Will Steel's story: the business owner who scaled by stepping back (Ep. 235)

05:16 Five questions to ask before deciding your team needs more of you

05:55 The real difference between helping and rescuing

06:30 What rescuing sounds like, versus what leadership actually sounds like

07:37 Scott Doggett's boat analogy: rowing hard, barely rowing, rowing backwards (Ep. 238)

08:42 Why you can't lead someone you've already decided is a problem

09:19 Recognizing people as humans, not managing them as “resources”

09:55 Anthony Sparks and the belief that achievement will finally make you worthy (Ep. 216)

11:01 Why external achievement can't fix an internal problem

11:30 What happens when you genuinely cannot fix the situation

11:57 Jodi Scott's story: losing everything in 24 hours, through nothing she did wrong (Ep. 236)

13:17 “This is how it is now”: acceptance as a starting point, not surrender

14:00 Why trust and micromanaging cannot coexist

14:38 Trusting someone means trusting their way, not just your way

15:16 The five-question test: am I fixing, or am I leading?

16:28 What true leadership actually looks like

16:56 The song, and why it's a little ironic given today's topic

The Fixing-or-Leading Test

RUN THIS BEFORE YOU JUMP IN TO SOLVE SOMETHING THAT ISN'T YOURS:

1. Is this even mine to fix? If not, step back.

2. Does this person need me to give them an answer, or do they need me

to ask better questions?

3. Am I solving the problem, or am I relieving my own discomfort?

4. If I fix this, what will this person learn?

5. What happens if I don't step in?

Resources Mentioned

• Song: Control by Janet Jackson

Episodes Referenced in This Episode

• Episode 235: Will Steel — the auto body shop client who went from 65–75-hour weeks to 12, grew revenue from $2.5M to $7M, and sold the business for $23.5M within 12 months of stepping out of the day-to-day.
• Episode 238: Scott Doggett — the boat analogy for team engagement: three people rowing hard, five barely dipping their oars, two actively rowing backwards.
• Episode 216: Anthony Sparks — on why money, titles, and achievement are scoreboards that can buy options and reduce stress, but can't replace self-respect or meaningful connection.
• Episode 236: Jodi Scott — on losing her team and her income within 24 hours after her acquiring partner was raided by federal investigators, and the phrase that became her starting point afterward: “this is how it is now.”

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at

[email protected] or on

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine.

We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine.

Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact.

New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation

Shane Lukas built his career on the belief that transparency, done right, protects you. He had spoken about his history in sex work advocacy at national and international conferences for years, and when a highly awarded, LGBTQ-friendly US company hired him, he did what he always did: he was upfront about who he was and where he'd come from.

The same day, someone in the sales department Googled his name and called HR. He was terminated immediately, for something that had nothing to do with his job performance.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Shane tells Lori Saitz what that firing revealed about the gap between a company's stated values and its lived ones, what a federal arrest years later taught him about testing his own values under real pressure, and why he now believes clarity about your values, not compromise, is what actually makes hard decisions easier.

What You'll Take Away

• Why being fired for radical transparency, from a company that had built its brand on LGBTQ+ support, revealed the real gap between stated values and lived ones
• What a values hierarchy is, and why trying to defend every value equally leaves you paralyzed instead of grounded
• Why Shane believes the next generation may be better positioned to stand up for their values, having less invested in promises that were already broken
• The difference between the 'melting pot' and 'mosaic' metaphors for culture, and why the mosaic reflects what he actually wants to see
• What algorithm-driven feeds cost us that a library shelf never did, and why 'adjacent knowledge' matters more than it sounds

Guest Bio

Shane Lukas is an activist, the brains behind award-winning brand strategy firm A Great Idea, a public speaker, and co-host of Power Beyond Pride, the weekly podcast for queer changemakers. In his latest TEDx talk, “What Values Conflict Costs You,” he brings Midwestern straight-talk to the lie of “I'm fine”: what misalignment actually costs you, and how courage becomes a practice instead of a personality trait.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

02:00The values he was raised with: authenticity, compassion, and bodily autonomy

06:00Growing up in an unstable, abusive household, and learning to self-parent at a young age

07:30Meeting Patty Alzator at 14, and what she modeled about dissent through compassion

09:00Studying journalism on the belief that more information leads to better decisions

11:00Building the country's only advocacy program for men in the adult industry

12:00Terminated the same day, after being fully transparent about his past

15:00Being tested on how far he was actually willing to go for his own values

16:00The second TEDx talk, and the arrest that prompted it

19:00The values hierarchy: why you can't defend every value equally

21:00Clarity around your values as the thing that actually makes decisions easier

23:00Whether thinking about your values is a luxury, and why he doesn't think so

27:00Pushing back on a company that refused LGBTQ+ protections despite employing queer people

29:30Why the next generation may be more prepared to stand up for their values

33:30The library metaphor: what 'adjacent knowledge' gave us that algorithms don't

38:00The song that gets him ready to walk on stage

39:00Where to find Shane: shanelukas.com and agreatidea.com

Resources Mentioned

• TEDx Talk: What Values Conflict Costs You — Shane Lukas
• TEDx Talk: Shane's second talk, on the arrest referenced in this episode
• Podcast: Power Beyond Pride — the weekly podcast for queer changemakers, co-hosted by Shane
• Free Resource: downloadable resources and white papers — agreatidea.com/insights
• Book: Shane's upcoming book, launching October — sign up for launch notice at shanelukas.com/book
• Song: Be Great by Jill Scott (feat. Trombone Shorty) — youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRlJljBgs

Connect With Shane Lukas

Company: A Great Idea

Website: shanelukas.com

Website: agreatidea.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shane-lukas

Instagram: @shanelukascom and @agreatideaco

X (Twitter): @shanelukascom and @weareagi

Podcast: Power Beyond Pride

Free Resource: agreatidea.com/insights

Book: sign up for launch notice at shanelukas.com/book

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 241: Suneet Bhatt — on values clarity as the foundation for every hard decision, not an obstacle to it.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Henry Tolbert was sitting at a fire pit behind a rental house, grilling hot dogs for his wife and four daughters because the insurance money for their flooded home was running out, when he finally said out loud what he had been avoiding for months: this isn't fine.

A few years earlier, Henry had been leading a small church that grew from 40 people to nearly 200, and had been named bishop over 65 churches. Then, without warning, discord broke out with the leader who had brought him in, and he was forced to resign from everything at once. In that same season, an unidentified animal chewed through the water lines in the walls of his home, flooding the first floor and displacing his family for six weeks. He had no job, no income, and what he calls a broken sense of purpose.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Henry tells Lori Saitz the full arc: a high school football career derailed by one injury after another, a scholarship earned in just five games, an NFL tryout built on the wrong game tape, a Bible study intervention that redirected him into ministry, and the fire pit moment that gave him permission to stop building other people's dreams and finally build his own.

What You'll Take Away

• Why a childhood dream pursued through repeated injury taught Henry more than an NFL career would have
• How losing his ministry role and his home in the same season forced an honest reckoning he had been avoiding for years
• Why judging his life by lead goals, the inputs he controls, instead of lag goals, the outcomes he doesn't, changed how he shows up every day
• What shifted when Henry stopped chasing clients and started inviting people instead
• How admitting he wasn't fine gave him permission to finally build something of his own

Guest Bio

Henry Tolbert spent years answering “How are you?” with “I'm fine” while quietly running on fumes, leading a church, building a business, and pretending he had it all together. Spoiler: he didn't. Now he's the Founder of Simple Systems Consulting, author of The Comeback Plan, and a recovering “I'm fine” addict who helps pastors and entrepreneurs stop white-knuckling their way through leadership and start building systems that actually let them breathe. He's also an Associate Pastor, podcast co-host, husband, dad of four, and a man who once grilled hot dogs over a fire pit in his backyard because life had completely fallen apart, and decided that was the last time he'd pretend everything was fine when it wasn't.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

00:00Opening and introductions — the Henry connection and generational names

01:33The values that shaped him: faith and football in Birmingham, Alabama

05:07A high school career derailed by injury after injury

07:07Five games, one scholarship, and a record-setting career at Grambling State

07:47What NFL scouts never saw: the tape from his best season

08:47His grandmother's plea to walk away — and why he couldn't

11:07The Bible study intervention that redirected him toward ministry

13:47“There's a light around you” — the moment that sealed it

14:47Becoming a bishop over 65 churches, then losing it overnight

15:47The critters, the flooded house, and six weeks displaced with four daughters

17:47The fire pit moment: admitting he wasn't fine

21:07Why people of faith are so good at sweeping things under the rug

25:47Lead goals vs. lag goals: judging life by inputs, not outcomes

27:47The coaching advice that changed everything: invite, don't chase

29:47Why the people who found him became his best clients

31:47Building an audience by just showing up, even when only his wife was watching

34:07In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins: Henry's walk-up song

35:07Where to find Henry: getchurchsystems.com and mybusinesssystems.com

Resources Mentioned

• Book: The Comeback Plan by Henry Tolbert
• Free Resource: Get Church Systems — getchurchsystems.com (for ministry and church leaders)
• Free Resource: My Business Systems — mybusinesssystems.com (for business owners and entrepreneurs)
• Resource: The Mandate Method — themandatemethod.com
• Song: In the Air Tonight by Phil Collins — open.spotify.com/track/7Dbg5O9nNWu6SWxDjJ9qoq

Connect With Henry Tolbert

Company: Simple Systems Consulting

Website: getchurchsystems.com

Website: mybusinesssystems.com

Website: themandatemethod.com

Book: The Comeback Plan

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/henry-tolbert-005a3943

Facebook: facebook.com/htolbert

Instagram: instagram.com/henry_tolbert

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 237: Scott Doggett — a leader who lost his role suddenly and rebuilt around a clearer sense of who he actually was.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Content Note: This episode includes a brief, non-graphic reference to a personal crisis involving suicidal thoughts.

Jim Morris grew up believing giving was the whole equation. His father taught him to give the shirt off his back to anyone who needed it, and it showed up everywhere in his childhood, right down to the night his father pulled a stranger from a burning car outside their home.

What Jim didn't learn for a long time was how to receive. It took a high-stakes business risk, a $240,000 self-funded conference that lost $112,000, and a moment of real personal crisis for him to finally ask for help directly.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Jim tells Lori Saitz about the Triple H method for actually supporting the people you love, and about four words from his two-year-old daughter that pulled him back from the lowest point of his life.

What You'll Take Away

• Why guessing what someone needs, help, being heard, or a hug, is one of the most common ways people let each other down
• How a single moment of connection can ripple outward in ways you'll never see or know about
• Why anticipating the worst contractually protects relationships and business deals alike
• The Five Alive exercise: what's already sitting, untapped, in your last five text conversations
• Why Jim now treats a $112,000 loss as an investment, not a failure

Guest Bio

Jim Morris is a keynote speaker who helps organizations scale revenue and create deep belonging by centering their culture on integrity, connection, and intentional growth. He is the author of Connect or Die: How to Survive AI and serves as the CEO of Human Touch Publishing.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

03:00The night a car crashed outside his childhood home

05:00His father pulling a stranger from a burning car, and the police officer's warning

07:00The question that reframes everything: how are you at receiving?

09:00The moment everything was on the line and he finally had to ask for help

11:30The Triple H method: help, heard, or hugged, and why guessing wrong fails people

17:47A period of profound personal crisis, interrupted by four words from his daughter

26:30The confidant, ally, acquaintance bullseye exercise, and how to build it

32:00The Five Alive exercise: what's already sitting in your text messages

34:00The $240,000 conference, the sales team that walked out, and losing $112,000

35:30The sign on the highway that said exactly what he needed to hear

37:30Reframing failure as an investment, not a loss

Resources Mentioned

• Book: Connect or Die: How to Survive AI by Jim Morris — a.co/d/00BVmyGx
• Song: Spinnin by Connor Price — youtu.be/UekfKh59KOw

Connect With Jim Morris

Company: Human Touch Publishing

Website: realjimmorris.com

Book: Connect or Die: How to Survive AI — a.co/d/00BVmyGx

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/realjimmorris

Facebook: facebook.com/therealjimmorris

Instagram: instagram.com/realjimmorris

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 240: Amanda Van Der Heiden — on resilience, boundaries, and what it costs to keep giving without receiving.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Suneet Bhatt spent 12 years in private equity and venture-backed businesses, and every job followed the same arc: new and exciting at first, then, faster each time, something felt off, and he went looking for the next one. He never noticed he was the common denominator.

It took his wife, after his last business exit, to name what he couldn't see in himself: his happiness at work was getting shorter each time, his exits were getting more acrimonious, and he needed to stop and figure out what actually mattered to him.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Suneet talks with Lori Saitz about what came after that conversation — the executive coaching practice, the Rutgers class that doesn't mention the word purpose until session 15, and the research-backed exercise he uses to counter the brain's built-in negativity bias.

What You'll Take Away

• Why purpose has to start with reflection, not prediction
• The three consistent through-lines across every popular definition of purpose: personal, forward-looking, bigger than you
• The 18-minute exercise, happy, proud, not yet satisfied, and why the order matters
• What the research on self-forgiveness and procrastination actually shows
• Why 'stuck' is not one problem, and each version of it needs a different response

Guest Bio

Suneet Bhatt has spent more than 25 years helping people gain clarity about who they are and what they want, then move toward it with purpose. He coaches founders and leaders, works with teams as an EOS Implementer, and has guided people from boardrooms to classrooms. He is the author of Making Sense of Purpose, out August 25, 2026 from Morgan James, built on one premise: before you can make sense of your purpose, you have to make sense of yourself.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

01:33Values from an immigrant household: be helpful, above everything else

07:14The corporate route: Fortune 500, an MBA at Duke, then 12 years in private equity

08:30Why he never noticed he was the common denominator

08:58His wife's intervention after the last exit

12:03Why 'finding your purpose' feels like waiting for an Amazon package

13:43Personal, forward-looking, bigger than you: the three common threads in every definition of purpose

14:12The Rutgers bait-and-switch: purpose doesn't come up until class 15

16:07Why you should never build your purpose on a single point of failure like joy

18:16Happy, proud, not yet satisfied: the 18-minute exercise, explained start to finish

22:06Negativity bias: why we respond more strongly to negative stimuli than positive

23:48Plateaus, not stuck: reframing what it means to feel stuck

25:09Self-forgiveness research: the procrastination study and what it proves

Resources Mentioned

• Book: Making Sense of Purpose by Suneet Bhatt (Morgan James, August 25, 2026) — available for pre-order
• Resource: book soundtrack, one song per chapter, on Spotify, YouTube, and Amazon Music
• Resource: Purpose Radar Library — a free, rated map of books, podcasts, and films about purpose
• Song: Da Rockwilder by Method Man and Redman — youtube.com/watch?v=WCYy8jpp7R8

Connect With Suneet Bhatt

Website: makingsenseofpurpose.com

Book: Making Sense of Purpose (Morgan James, out August 25, 2026)

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/suneetbhatt

Instagram: @suneetonpurpose

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 238: Scott Doggett — on purpose, burnout, and what it takes to stop and ask the bigger question.

Research & Sources

• Suneet cites research showing humans respond 2 to 5 times more strongly to negative stimuli than positive. This aligns with well-established negativity bias research, including Roy Baumeister's 'bad is stronger than good' review, Kahneman and Tversky's work on loss aversion (roughly a 2:1 ratio), and Cacioppo's neural response studies showing measurably stronger brain activation to negative stimuli. The exact ratio varies by study and context, but the underlying finding is well replicated.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Replaced by Three Employees and Called It a Badge of Honor with Amanda Van Der Heiden

Amanda Van Der Heiden could trot on a horse before she could walk. When she fell into a sandpit at age two, her parents put her right back on before she was done crying — no discussion, no choice. That lesson became the operating principle for the rest of her life, including a corporate career that hit the exact same burnout pattern three times in three different companies.

At 27, working 20-hour days with a team spanning two continents, she left one role and was replaced by three full-time employees. She saw it as a badge of honor for years, until the same thing happened again, and then again.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Amanda talks with Lori Saitz about what executive presence actually looks like, the real difference between introversion and extroversion, and why she now measures success by whether she tried, not whether she succeeded.

What You'll Take Away

• Why chasing bigger networks misses the point when most people already have valuable relationships they've stopped tending
• What Amanda learned about executive presence by watching three tiers of leadership arrive at the same conference
• The real difference between introversion and extroversion — it's about how you refuel, not how social you are
• Why the same burnout pattern across three different companies pointed to one common denominator
• What Amanda means by 'win or learn,' and why it removes the fear of trying

Guest Bio

Amanda Van Der Heiden is a Chaos Organizer and Relationship Builder, and a passionate learning and development leader who enjoys energizing and enabling people to excel. She is an award-winning consultant, speaker, coach, and author who drives change, talent development, and effective leadership worldwide.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

01:05Raised on a horse farm: work ethic, determination, resilience

03:21Raised between Kentucky and Long Island, and how that shaped her adaptability

07:19The horse story: strapped into the stirrups before she could walk

08:06The sandpit: falling at two years old and being put right back on

18:09The leadership conference: watching executive presence across three tiers of seniority

22:03The burnout pattern: 20-hour days, a team across two continents, 17,000 people

23:17Getting replaced by three full-time employees, and thinking it was a compliment

25:41Introversion and extroversion explained correctly: it is about refueling, not sociability

28:01Win or learn: the redefinition of failure that removes the fear

Resources Mentioned

• Free Resource: goal-accomplishment giveaway for listeners — goGTDS.com
• Song: Get Things Done by Solyn — open.spotify.com/track/2WsizP4qoRB7rAZb3oxsRN

Connect With Amanda Van Der Heiden

Website: GTDScorp.com

Free Resource: goGTDS.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amandavanderheiden

Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=61573758719415

Instagram: gtds.LearnTuesday

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 238: Scott Doggett — on employee engagement, burnout, and treating people as more than resources to manage.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.

Content Note: This episode includes discussion of childhood abuse, institutional trauma, and a reference to suicidal ideation, drawn from Cyndy's own published memoirs.

Cyndy Etler was 13 when she chose foster care over going home. A month at a Bridgeport youth shelter gave her the first real choices of her life. Then her mother enrolled her in Straight Incorporated, a program later described by the ACLU as a concentration camp for throwaway teens, where Cyndy was held for 16 months for having tried marijuana three times.

She came home brainwashed, isolating in bathroom stalls at lunch, telling classmates they weren't in her best interest — until an English teacher read her writing out loud to the class and said her name like it mattered.

On this episode of FINE is a 4-Letter Word, Cyndy tells Lori Saitz how one adult's genuine interest can redirect a kid's entire life, and what she now teaches other teenagers to watch for in the adults around them.

What You'll Take Away

• Why one small, genuine act of attention from an adult can move a kid's entire trajectory
• What made Straight Incorporated function like a coercive cult, according to Cyndy's account
• The difference between coaching and therapy, and why that distinction matters for teenagers specifically
• What teenagers actually need (autonomy) versus what they usually get (control and direction)
• The one thing Cyndy tells every teenager to watch for in the adults around them

Guest Bio

Cyndy Etler is a homeless, incarcerated, suicidal kid turned teen life coach and author. She was put on earth to bring out the champ in kids who have been counted out. She is the author of two memoirs, Dead Inside and We Can't Be Friends, and narrates Season 2 of Robert Downey Jr.'s podcast The Sunshine Place, covering the full history of Straight Incorporated. Those seeking non-judgmental, evidence-based support for teens and young adults can book a consultation with her at theteenlifecoach.com.

Chapters & Key Timestamps

07:00Choosing foster care at 13 — the choice at the police station

09:00Janice House: the first adults who gave her a choice and respected the answer

10:30Hit by lightning at 14: walking to the corner store and knowing her purpose

13:30Straight Incorporated: the warehouse, the ACLU verdict, 16 months, 250 kids

18:30Five months before she could speak to her mother, with a script and an observer

19:00Coming out brainwashed, and telling kids they weren't in her best interest

21:00The English teacher who read her writing to the class and said her name

24:30What the teacher taught without knowing it: one drop of water and a dying plant

27:00What teenagers actually need versus what they usually get: autonomy vs. control

29:30Coaching vs. therapy: no DSM-5, no IEP goals, just what do you want to change

31:30The one adult who listens without wanting something in return

Resources Mentioned

• Book: Dead Inside by Cyndy Etler
• Book: We Can't Be Friends by Cyndy Etler
• Podcast: The Sunshine Place, Season 2 (Robert Downey Jr.'s podcast, narrated by Cyndy)
• Song: My Prerogative by Bobby Brown — youtube.com/watch?v=5cDLZqe735k

Connect With Cyndy Etler

Coaching: theteenlifecoach.com

Author site & books: cyndyetler.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cyndy-etler-med-icf-acc-b9149535

Facebook: facebook.com/CyndyTheTeenLifeCoach

Instagram: @cyndyetler

Continue With Lori

Website: zenrabbit.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Email: [email protected]

Invitation From Lori

This episode is sponsored by Zen Rabbit. Trust is the foundation of all great workplaces, and in today's hybrid, fast-moving work culture, it's built through consistent, clear, human communication.

Quarterly town halls, Slack messages, or team-building events are rarely enough to create the connection employees need. That's why forward-thinking companies are hiring Lori to create internal and private podcasts that bring leaders and employees together through authentic stories and real conversations.

Think of it as the old-school company newsletter reinvented for the modern workplace.

If your company wants to strengthen communication, connection, community, and culture, connect with Lori at [email protected] or on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorisaitz/

Related Conversation

Episode 237: Rob Scheer — on foster care and what one adult's attention can do for a kid's entire life.

About FINE is a 4-Letter Word

FINE is a 4-Letter Word is the show for leaders who are tired of pretending everything is fine. We explore what it takes to lead with empathy, vulnerability, gratitude, and courage, especially during the seasons when life and leadership feel anything but fine. Listen for honest conversations about how human connection influences innovation, retention, leadership, and real impact. New episodes every week.

Follow FINE is a 4-Letter Word

Follow or subscribe so you never miss an episode. If this conversation gave you something useful to think about, leave a review. Reviews help more people discover the show and join the conversation.