How do you train and retain staff in the current job market? Erin Easton gives insight to workforce trends and shares the benefits of the Fire Alarm the Apprenticeship program at Cape Fear Community College. As a panel discussion Paul Inferrera and Erin share their knowledge about business development. 

More information about the program. 

https://cfcc.edu/job-training/construction-careers/fire-alarm-systems-training/

Episode 74 is a discussion about fire protection engineering. Sr. VP and Director of Business Development at Harrington Group Tom Gardner shares his incredible experience through a variety of occupancies, projects, and life experiences.

Episode 73 explores research, historical fires, and engineering. Join in an enlightening discussion with Casey Grant, a seasoned professional in fire protection. Grant shares invaluable insights drawn from his storied career  with history, technology, and personal experience.

Jeyra is back on the podcast! If your interested in a discussion between two fire and life safety professionals about community involvement, professional development, and project updates than you are in the right place.

Ryan Waterman is a sprinkler designer, business owner, and innovator in fire safety. Tune in to hear about Ryan's business and career which all centers around fire sprinkler systems.

 https://designerhub.com/

How do fire and life safety professionals tackle challenges like sustainability, energy storage systems, and technology becoming obsolete? These topics and more are discussed in episode 70 of Fire Code Tech. Robert Solomon P.E. shares tremendous insight from his 30+ years at NFPA and 40 years in fire protection.

00:07.11 firecodetech Well Robert thank you for coming on the fire code tech podcast we're happy to have you today.

00:13.10 robert solomon Well thank you very much for having me I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

00:18.15 firecodetech Awesome! So how I usually get these things started to give the listeners some context and also for my own listening pleasure is usually asking about how you found fire and life safety How you found the field.

00:32.93 robert solomon So where I grew up. Um I grew up in a rural area in Western Pennsylvania and I think I was like maybe like a lot of little kids right? The fire truckcks you know pure actually going by. Would you know there's some level of excitement or you'd go to the. Annual ah fire department carnival in the local towns or whatever that were run by the fire departments and I I kind of got an interest I think from that you know childhood ah piece or kind of experience. When I was 15 I actually learned about the small town that I lived near they actually had a junior volunteer fire department program and I found out about that and um I joined that literally when I was fifteen years old so at 15 right? You can you can like wash equipment and fire trucks. You know you're not going to go to fires or car accidents or anything but I immediately kind of liked the firefighting aspect. A while later maybe a year later than two of the members who were getting their far science degrees at a community college. They came to the muddy night meeting and they have this photocoppied piece of paper about this fire protection engineering program at University Of Maryland I thought like.

01:54.96 robert solomon Sounds interesting. What what exactly does this mean and what is it so I made a trip to University Of Maryland ah that year I was in tenth grade then um I met Dr Brian Wright who is one of the more famous folks from Oklahoma. And he talked about the program and in I think in tenth grade he in tenth grade I think I was 99% sure I wanted to figure out how I could go to University Of Maryland to to go through that program. So um I was just blessed to kind of. Have all these things that kind of came together and that were kind of connected. Um I liked the farfighting part but I always had in the back my mind I wanted to be an engineer. My father was an engineer and ah, that's kind of how how it all started for me when I was when I was fifteen years old so and been been doing it ever since which is a long time for by age. So yeah.

02:48.33 firecodetech That's awesome. That's interesting to hear that seems like a common thread of involvement with the fire service and then ah, a proclivity for math and science or a family member that is related to engineering So that's good to hear. Well.

03:00.00 robert solomon Um, yeah, and for sure.

03:04.26 firecodetech Ah, so for a bit more of context. Um, would you mind explaining a couple more of the roles that you've held in during your career.

03:13.75 robert solomon Sure so the first kind of job I had in the fire protection engineering world. It was a summer intern job with the department of veterans affairs. It was the veterans administration back then but I had a summer internship in Washington Dc at the v a central office. And of course the e a does hospitals and nursing homes. So I learned a lot about the nfk life safety code and the fire safety evaluation system um is a part of that summer job working with the really you know smart fpes that were there. The supervisor that headed up that group bill Brooks. Um, one of the other things he did for me that summer is he arranged for me to go visit with fire protection engineers and other federal agencies Army Corps of Engineers Naval Sea systems command navfac all these other federal agencies department of transportation. And I got a chance to see what they did in this Fpe Role so I really didn't realize at the time like how much how much I was to absorb from kind of having that opportunity to spend a couple hours with them so that was kind of my first intern job and.

04:32.84 robert solomon There go the allergies. Ah, and then that was you know between junior and senior years and then I had kind of gravitated towards this idea of working for naval facilities engineering command nav fact that was my first job then after graduation in 1982 I was at the southern division down in Charleston South Carolina and I think what appealed to me about that is is when you work on military projects and and you sounds like you're familiar with this the the military builds everything and sometimes you only build 1 or 2 of those things ever in the history of. Of of building construction. So I had ah four great years working at at navfa down in ah Charleston again. Um the supervisor of that was a gentleman named Dennis Davis I worked with other ah great fpes Les Engels Jim Crawford and and and these were people that really helped morph me and guide me and it's like I always said to people in college you get your degree and then you get your education when you get your first real job so they really taught me kind of that connection between the theory and what maybe you learned in school and then how that kind of applies to. Real world building design and construction. so so I said I had four four great years at navfac and I kind of learned that I learned how to travel I'd never been an airplane till I was 21 years old then all of a sudden I'm on an airplane every other week going to.

06:02.51 robert solomon You know somewhere on a project in Florida or Texas or New Mexico um but again just a fascinating job. You know I really liked everything about that. Definitely yeah yeah, yeah.

06:14.49 firecodetech And that's awesome. Yeah I love that complexity piece of the the dod and you know that's it's very alluring for multiple disciplines of engineer because of just the type of systems and the type of work I think for engineers I.

06:21.10 robert solomon The.

06:33.22 firecodetech Think it takes a different breed of architect when you get into a lot of military work. But for engineers it seems if you like the detail and you like the complexity that it's very compelling So that's cool to hear about that origin story. So.

06:44.81 robert solomon Right? And yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah, so says I had I had that period that time down at navfac and then in ah, 1986 I knew there were some openings at Npa and I think I'd mentioned right when I was in the was in the fire department back in Pennsylvania when I was 15 or 16 they had they this set of these books and I didn't know what they were was this nfpa thing and um I remember looking at them when I'm 16 like what what on earth are these things you know and. What is this nfpa and and one of the things I didn't mention is I got a student membership in nfpa when I was 17 so that you learn about it. You know going through the program at University Of Maryland and it was always in the back of my mind that sounds like a pretty interesting place to maybe work. So. And 86 I knew there were some ah openings up there and I you know back then you had to write a letter and I wrote the letter. It's like here's my resume and they actually contacted me to come up for an interview I thought like oh oh gosh you know it was like ah okay, what I'm Boston don't know anything about Boston. It's this big city I'm not used to big cities. Came up interview went well I was offered a position and so I went to I left of naffac and went to work at Nfpa back in July of 87 and at the time my goal was like I want to work here for four or five years to learn about how these codes are developed and made.

08:11.87 robert solomon And I wanted to go I figured I I go do something else I go work for a consultant or maybe go back to some federal agency but the the opportunities that I got at nfpa were were nonstop. Um, you know it's like anything sometimes it falls in your lap. Sometimes you have to go looking for it sometimes sometimes you have to kind of create the opportunity and thirty forty years later it's like oh I've had a good run here. It's time for me to go to to something else. So my my 5 year plan all of a sudden morphed into a a 34 year plan and. Like I said it was a it. It still is. It's ah it's a privilege to work at Nfpa. It is a it's a great organization. Um I I never I never had I was never bored there. There was always something new around the corner and. Things I worked on whether you know I think what I enjoyed the most obviously is working directly with the technical committees but I was involved in some of the you know big fire investigation programs and report writing um was always usually involved on you know some. National international catastrophe right? I was managing the group um that usually would have involvement with that whether it was the far code or the building code or the life safety code aspect but it it was just it was just like it.

09:38.73 robert solomon It it. It was just an unbelievable experience the whole time I was there I was working you know some of the people your age I don't know if you know names like Chet Shermer or the actual Rolf Jensen um you know these are the people that really I think really kind of put our profession on the map put fire protection engineering on the Map. And I would be sitting in meetings with these guys and they'd be asking me my opinion I'm like you know I don't I guess the word would be almost like Starstruck initially, it's like you're asking me what I think and um so it it was just it was just like it was. It. It was just an unbelievable experience the the whole time I was there. But I said you know whether it was the the new committee projects. Um the fire investigation work. The research work. Um, you know, ah it was all of those things. Just really. Ah, it gave me opportunities I never thought in 1000000 years I would have so like it was you know to to work somewhere for 34 Years that's pretty unusual now. But I think you know I'm in the generation that that was maybe a little bit more common than it is today. So my nfpa time was was just It was awesome is the only way I could describe it.

10:53.25 firecodetech That's incredible that sounds so cool to be in that era of just some of the imminent forces now in the industry just you know come into fruition. That's really cool to hear about and lots of good nuggets in there that I.

11:00.33 robert solomon Um.

11:01.88 robert solomon Move.

11:11.16 firecodetech Im sure we could spend ah a whole conversation on but 1 that strikes me as one I wanted to ask you about is that fire investigations piece I know that as fire and life safety professionals. You know, a lot of what we do is based on. Um.

11:13.53 robert solomon Ah, answer sure.

11:29.77 firecodetech Retroactively looking at how things went wrong and trying to correct those in the code cycles. But how does that experience at Nfba kind of color your context for how you look at design. Um, I know that's kind of a ah broad question. But um, I'd like to hear your answer on that.

11:51.42 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think I think there's 2 things that influence the way I look at application of codes to building design and one is you know I was only the volunteer fire service for 7 years you know in between Pennsylvania and what I did not in Prince George's County Maryland so you know? Yeah I kind of know what a fire feels like um that was part of it and then when you're at some of these fire investigation scenes you know like I said I was at Dupont Plaza where 97 people died and you're you're walking through these areas where you know where the bodies were a couple of days prior. Um, or orridium plaza where we've got the 3 firefighter fatalities and it's just like you know how you know how how on earth do we do? We get to these places. So I think that those things kind of sear some you know memories or the way I'm going to approach things that you know in. And again in either 1 of those fires right? The the role of the Nfk investigation is to is not necessarily It's not necessarily focused on cause and origin ah someone else is going to determine that the nfk report is okay, regardless of how it started what what is it that allowed this fire event. To to get to the point it did it and that's where the code piece comes in so I think between my experience you even though it was short lived in the volunteer fire service and then on the fire investigations to see the actual impacts. It's like you know, look there there there. There are no shortcuts in this business right.

13:25.97 robert solomon Oftentimes remember we do have these things or we do have these types of fires there. There is a shortcut or in other cases. It's simply the ongoing inspection testing and maintenance um is not is not followed through right? So it kind of falls on the building owner.

13:44.23 robert solomon So The codes can make that foolproof to an extent but right we still have that the human element that can you know that that kind of comes into play and you know I think especially in the assembly occupancies right? That's that that's that tough area because you do have to rely on. Folks like crowd managers and even like some of the safety or usher staff to help you with that because no matter what you put in the code people are going to figure out a way to defeat it. We. We just had 1 came in on the weekend about about. About the height height height of a guardrail and design of a guardrail at an assembly facility and you know the inspector said when somebody could climb on that and climbing that and it's like of course they can right? They can you know people people can always figure out how to how to climb over those things right? so. That that's kind of where that that human element comes in and I think that's the that's other piece I try to look at like you know the office building versus residential versus the assembly and I I I Keep those fairly compartmented I think in terms of how I'm going to look at. How to apply the life safety code or the ibc to those to those occupancies and to you know to make sure we we have. We have good explanations when somebody is questioning why they have to do it or how they have to do it so that you know that? ah all that stuff sits in the back here somewhere at it.

15:12.22 robert solomon You know I can I can pull it out when I need it. So.

15:15.38 firecodetech Yeah I think that is the difficult part and the mark of you know, somebody who can speak with confidence about a lot of fire and life safety is that nuance and the explaining of the justification. Um, because you know like you're saying.

15:22.76 robert solomon Be. I.

15:32.84 firecodetech Ah, you're you're going to get pushback in your career from ah ah, code official or so or somebody and you need to understand that direction or why that piece of code is there and what is a reasonable bound for the kind of life safety that we're Providing. Ah, in the context of prescriptive code. So you you have to have that understanding or else you're going to get thrown for a loop. It's guaranteed. Um.

15:52.94 robert solomon Yeah.

15:59.29 robert solomon Yeah, yeah for sure for sure and I was just say that when what I left out ofpa you know where I am now at Sls Consulting you know that that's that's part of that's part of my role there right? You know we we get we get a situation and. Maybe we're trying to. We're doing a performance-based design or're looking at a potential code equivalency or or we got somebody questioning. You know what? whys have to be done that way and probably not probably 9 times out of 10 I can I can tell them why because I guess it shows I'm old but like. I was probably there when the committee made the change or I worked with that committee long enough that I knew the history of of why that thing was in the code since 1930 or 1940 or whatever. So um, you know that's that's the other piece I think that I can bring is there still is some some importance to know. To know the historical perspective about about how the requirement got there is it based on a research report is it based on a fire is it based on some other you know tragic event or tragedy or or something else that went wrong. So those are you know that's that's one of the. Ah things I help my colleagues with now at a ls as well. So.

17:10.86 firecodetech Yeah, and that's a great question something I had planned to ask you later in the interview but this seems like a good interjection point is you know if and there might be no good answer to this other than you need just more experience and more time in the code cycles. But how. Does somebody who's trying to like absorb as much of this intent and subtext as Possible. Do you have any piece of advice for a young professional or somebody who's trying to gain. Ah, Expertise or proficiency and some piece of some code or standard you know are do you have any tips for somebody in that kind of situation.

17:57.60 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yes I think I think that the two things I try to encourage people to do I I do I teach this one undergrad class on a wpi. It's only offered once a year and it's what I tell the students this. But maybe an old-timers expression but you know that the class is an introduction to fire protection engineering and it's it's that milew wide inch deep right? They get hit with everything from Ibc Nfk one a 1 sprinklers standpipes fire alarm systems and they they get ah that exposure. But one of the things I tell them one is you know is wherever they end up working is is to make sure that they they can identify a good mentor right? and I think that the mentorship is something that organizations are paying more attention to right? We we pay attention to that and s I'll ask with the with the new. Ah, students the new employees the new graduates nfpa I think did a very good job with that. So finding a good mentor is is important to to kind of shadow them and you know and and follow them and and to understand right. You know I've been doing this for forty plus years and I you know I still don't know everything right I learned I learned stuff from from the 25 year olds I work with so so so that that learning thing never stops. So so one is to get a good mentor I think in terms of if if they can.

19:26.99 robert solomon Do it and they can carve out the time and they'll get support from their organization or from their company is to look at the professional development programs offered by nfpa right? The nfpa programs give you give you a great a great ah a great introduction those concepts right like the life safety code seminar or the sprinkler seminar or the fire alarm seminar those are going to give you kind of the the jumping off point and then then you kind of go to that you know that next level then then you go look at the courses. Maybe that. American Fire Sprinkler Association or national fire sprinkler association. The courses they offer on sprinkler design stamp pipe design on on fire pump design and understanding on the inspection testing and maintenance protocols and and then you go to? Ah, ah. Automatic fire alarm association a faa for their courses on fire alarm design again. Which really you know those organizations now I'll take you to that next level to those deep dives. So so those are those are kind of the ah the roots I think I think those are some. Places I would I would point folks to that are just getting just getting involved in the business.

20:40.68 firecodetech Yeah that's a great point finding a mentor finding a community and then you know, understanding your code and standard base with nfpa and some of those online educational courses. You know I taking a couple of those I definitely. Super recommend I took ah several for 13 and 72 they were really really high quality I've never seen a course like that in the industry that even comes close and then ah yeah, look going drilling down to the technology specificc.

21:12.66 robert solomon Great.

21:18.73 firecodetech Ah, aaa and nfsa and a Fsa. Um, if you need more explicit criteria and you know they have books they have technical guides and things so that's great tips Robert I appreciate that? um.

21:30.85 robert solomon Yeah, okay, good.

21:38.43 firecodetech Ah, wanted to kind of go back to that design experience. You mentioned a little bit and you know it could be at your role now for Sls or during your time at nfpa. But what is an ah example of a project that you're involved in that you're.

21:40.13 robert solomon Just.

21:57.83 firecodetech Um, proud of or that kind of gives listeners an idea of occupancy wise or technology wise something that has been a focus for you.

22:07.12 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I think the the one that um, still stands out for me personally. Um when I was at Nfpa this is the change that came into the life safety code in the 2012 edition around this notion of what's referred to as culture change and I remember in early 2008? Um I I headed up the ah nfk building and life safety group for a long time. And I was contacted by this organization called the pioneer network and they said oh we're having this conference in April and we're looking for somebody to come to speak about this nfk life safety code. That all of the hospitals and nursing homes are required to comply with because of the federal regulations I'm like oh yeah, you know I can do that I said you know it was in Dc and I said I'll bring the the washington dcrep you know you know you know? Ah I'll co-present with her. And I said you know I said you know can you send me information a bit more about what you're looking for and what your organization is doing and um I get I get like this white paper and I'm looking at it I'm going like I'm I'm reading. Ah what you you don't put kitchens.

23:25.16 robert solomon Community kitchens in a nursing home you you would put fireplaces in a nursing home. Ah, they they have all this stuff and it was this group that had been working on this for 10 years and what was stopping them was the life safety code.

23:39.95 robert solomon So my initial reaction is like this is like crazy What do you mean? this is this makes absolutely no sense. So um, so i' got through the white paper then ah you know a couple months later we're we're at the ah like a three day conference I think in Dc and I'm I'm talking to all these advocates for this. And these people were super passionate and by the time I left that conference I'm thinking like we have to figure out how we can change the life safety code to allow these things to happen. Um, and and I I kind of look back. You know some of the um. There were 1 or 2 nursing home fires I hadipheral involvement in and you know in the us we used to design nursing homes almost slightly better than we designed a prison right? Double loaded corridors with concrete block walls and um, you know, just like a dull drab place for people to you know. Spend their last months or years or whatever living. So this whole culture change initiative was to make this more into a home like environment and if you're going to call it a nursing home then you need to figure out how to you know how to how to how to make that design fit a little bit better. So the other part of me thought boy you know in 30 or 40 years if I haven't been a nursing home I want to be in one of these like really cool looking. Nice comfortable places rather than what I envision nursing homes typically being so so we had.

25:09.39 robert solomon Worked with the pioneer network and then we worked with ah um, with benefactor from the rothschild foundation and those 2 organizations took the lead. They put some research money into nfpa and the research foundation. To help us co-sponsor we did two health care summits around this concept around this notion to introduce it. Um, there was buying immediately from the technical committee on health care occupancies in the life safety code. And everybody went to work probably late 2008 Eight two thousand early 2009 to get those changes in the twenty twelve code and that is one of the main reasons that Cms moved to adopt the 2012 code kind of as quickly as they did it still takes time. But. As quickly as they did because the code now introduced these culture change initiatives. So when I look back on things I did at Fpa that that one I think that one was interesting because one it it opened my mind to look at things differently to look at the nursing home environment differently? um. It's a positive change for society and I think it's one of those code changes. It wasn't done because of a tragedy or a fire. It was a proactive thing and I think that's one of the things that I've I've seen nfpa and I've seen Icc ah you know I think I think doing more changes like that being more.

26:36.89 robert solomon Proactive to make adjustments to what society wants rather than oh now we had this fire. We had this earthquake. We have to go make a change. So I think the code organizations are much better and that that for me is I think the one the 1 thing at nfpa that um I think I'm still most proud of and. I was just glad to see how that all worked out you know and and now you know this is a this is a standard design. No 1 questions about the community kitchen in the nursing home or the fireplace or the the more bright open areas. Um, so that that's that's the one that. That that sticks with me the most I think of of everything I've done. Okay.

27:18.19 firecodetech That's awesome. Cool to see the the fire and life safety dovetail with improving life quality for people and making positive change and I think that that is a big part of the reason why a lot of people love fire and life safety is there.

27:27.80 robert solomon In your.

27:35.84 firecodetech Ah, the social implications of it and the protections and you know making a difference in your community. So that's really cool to hear about that robert.

27:44.46 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, and as I saying now you know at Sls um, we you know one of the things that we are. We're starting to get asked about you know are some of these alternative materials around sustainability and you know debt 0 energy right? Ah so we have we have the obviously the mass timber stuff that. Ah, groups like Icc and the fire protection research foundation did all that work all that effort over about a 4 year period to get those changes in the 2021 edition of the ibc. Um, that's you know, partly being pushed by sustainability initiatives. But. Now we we also have like other materials coming on the market and one of the things that we we look at at Sls is we have a project right now where it's a um, it's it's an alternative material. That has very friendly environmental properties. It has it has a low carbon footprint. But it's not you know when I pick up the book right? Now. It's not in the book. So we got. We're figuring out you know what what? What are the steps. What's the pathway to get it in the book or maybe to at least get it. Um.

28:58.24 robert solomon Approved under some alternative means and methods initially and then and kind of see where it goes from there. So so that's other I think another role that's unique for for fps that people are coming up with new ideas. New technologies new concepts right? The whole energy storage system. Ah, is another one of those that do we need it? Yes, ah, can we do it safely? Yes, um, just always go perfectly. No, but it's it's like all this right? The the. Battery manufacturers are trying to figure out. You know what? what are the alternatives to Lithium Ion batteries what's a safer type battery that gives you the same efficiencies and the same outputs. So. It's this never ending swirl of advancements in technology which is you know you know which which I which I like right? it's. It's exciting. It keeps you engaged and it it keeps keeps me interested in the business. So.

29:55.78 firecodetech Yeah, definitely it always makes it interesting. That's one of the most alluring parts about the industry is the variety variety is a spice of life and fire and life safety has no end to the variety and complexity that you can dive into and yeah, that's a definitely.

30:09.79 robert solomon Um, great.

30:14.89 firecodetech Ah, from like a schooling it was in school I had no clue that you know there were fire protection engineers that specified in products and how to get a specific product fm approved or Ul listed or you know what that process looked like going through the different testing agencies and.

30:32.84 robert solomon P.

30:34.79 firecodetech Significant time and cost associated with that process and how if you don't have somebody who knows what they're doing that. It's just basically a black box and it's like hard to crack that code and so I mean I think it's It's really interesting as ah, just ah.

30:46.76 robert solomon Good.

30:53.77 firecodetech Way to do work. But yeah, that's a very cool process and another great topic you pressed on was Lithium Ion batteries and a man what a hot topic in the industry right now people trying to figure out how to protect them. You know they're everywhere so you know.

30:56.19 robert solomon And.

31:09.99 robert solomon C.

31:11.89 firecodetech What does that look like separation of battery arrays. Ah different protection technologies. Ah, that's a great topic.

31:21.73 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and and I think you know that's one um I think we we brought some attention on that at nfk back in 2014 it was ironically it was it was a guy at my church and he was ah um, he lived in Massachusetts but he's working with this company. Ah, and um. Ah, in Seattle Washington he would like he would travel out there almost every week and you know having like coffee coffee time after church he's he's told me about this battery thing I'm like you know I'm like what what what is this so after about six months I said can you come in and do a lunch and learn for our technical staff on this so I had brad come in and he told us about it and like said that was twenty fourteen and we were just starting to hear a little bit more about this and then all of a sudden you know he's explaining like what the uses are and this is before this is really before the. You know technology really started to ramp up. So so as far back as 24 times I just like you know I wouldn' have done anything about ess until a couple years later had I not you know had this conversation with you know, 1 of my fellow church members. So it's just it's it's weird how some of these things kind of. Ah, kind of transpire but you know that that got Npa looking more closely at it. Some research worked and then creation of nf p Eight fifty five and you know everybody's paralleling with the requirements in nfpa one and the ifc and.

32:51.15 robert solomon You know, trying to figure out how all those pieces fit and something you hit on right? it's that um it's that that that dance right? between well here's what the code does. Well here's what the standard does. Well here's what the the ul or fm product standard does for the testing and. It is you know those pieces just don't those pieces just don't happen. There's a lot of lot of careful coordination. Um and cooperation between those organizations to you know to make sure everybody gets the right test protocols and procedures. So we can end up with you know. Good documents like nfpa eight fifty five or the requirements end up in the fire codes or the building codes or I heard last week I haven't verified it yet. Um, there's something in apparently in the Massachusetts stretch energy code provision that I think it takes effect july first. Ah, so someone told me that they thought they heard there's something in there about mandatory use of ess in certain types of buildings if you know if the local jurisdiction adopts the stretch code. So I have to do some homework on that to to verify that. But. But yeah, you're right? It's you know that the stuff is everywhere and there's ah, there's no end in sight.

34:08.85 firecodetech Yeah, another good point. Ah you know that emphasizes your statement of its everywhere is sustainability which you mentioned and how that is getting ever-increasing focus in fire and life safety which is pushing people to. You know, consider solar arrays and and battery storage for the ups for those solar arrays and so it kind of just feeds off of itself in this push forward and so it's interesting to one of the issues I wanted to. Focus on because I've seen it as a through line and your career is emerging technologies and kind of how do we look at them and address them as these things pop up or as Technologies die like we've seen recently with some of the foam products out there. Um, and the legislation kind of removing those technologies from the conversation or modifying them and having new products in their place. But ah yeah I think that's a great topic I'd love to hear from you about um how you see a like a framework for. Taking a look at how these things change.

35:27.60 robert solomon Yeah, so so I think I you know those are other examples I think of of changes driven by society. So my my first exposure to that is whenever the us epa and other. Ah. Their counterparts other countries started the phase out of the hallons. AhCfc gases back in the 1980 S so one of my former colleagues and nfpa casey grant um he he was he was he was. He was very much in the middle of that. Um, ah in his role at Nfpa.

36:00.74 robert solomon And that was kind of like you know here's this halon 13 ah one when I worked at nav fact you know and anything that was data or tracking or telementary or communications. There was a haon 13 or 1 system in it. Um I should know if it right? but you know. Be in those rooms where we would do the discharge tests right? So you know and I think back then like you know it was. You didn't even think twice about it. So so all of a sudden There's this Ah ah, there's this movement to get rid of it back in like I said I think that started in 1980 1991 maybe but 1989 that's kind of whenever I think that was here the Montreal protocol and like all the signatories said you know we're going to ban it by you know whatever date. So now of a sudden everybody like you said everybody's scrambling. We have this great agent. It's very effective. Um, it doesn't leave any residue. It doesn't leave a mess but it you know it destroys the ozone layer. So I you know I I went on a trip to China with some other nfpa folks and ul folks um to talk to their and their government agencies about. Alternatives to halon right? So we're talking about that before the replacement chemicals are there so we're talking about these early concepts you know not early like this like automatic sprinkler systems but early concepts like water mist. So.

37:28.32 robert solomon Shortly after that trip then npa starts down the road to develop nfpa seven fifty water mist is maybe ah, an alternative agent but then the the other producers were looking at alternative. Clean, agent gas extinguishing. Ah. Features or characteristics that that then was my foray into this like oh boy, you know there's other stuff we have to consider. Of course we're going to put the fire out but we also have to look at other implications you look at energy efficiency. So. You know now we're putting different materials on the facades of the buildings to manage you know, ah more efficient cooling in the summer months and more efficient heating in the winter months and oh yeah, by the way, there's you know, ah, an inch or two inches of some kind of poly material. Um, sandwiched between the Panels. So you know you see like okay, um, that's a societal response for energy stuff and then how do we safely get that material and then you see development initial development of the old standard. Ah the old uniform building code standard on this. Morphed into nfpa two eighty five so there's another example of of where of where those pieces really connect and I think now when you look at sustainability you know I think a lot of the focus is really going to be on the materials right? The the big dog right now it was the.

38:59.43 robert solomon Creation of the of the mass timber requirements in the code that allow us to go to I think 18 stories now for certain occupancies. Um, if you told me ten years ago we'd have code provisions allowed wood for ten stories I would have said yeah, no way next? ah. But it's it's that whole thing it's like okay, right your your initial fpe reacts is like it's what it burns. It's bad and it's like oh it's what it's heavy timber. Um you can it burn? Yes, but it has unique characteristics like the charring to create the insulation and and again I look back. My you know. Volunteer fire department days I said very rural area I remember going to barn fires and like you know the siding would be gone but those big you know 10 by 10 beams would they would just smolder for days and they were still structurally sound and so that was like my connection to like. Oh yeah, that stuff really is pretty durable when it comes to fire. So it's it's it's things like that. But my personal opinion as I started to say my proe opinion is it's going to really now be on the materialials. You know? Um, if I have I guess the literature I read right? You know to. Produce concrete. It's very high intensity and it's you know you know it's a c o 2 issue and things like that or production of steel or the supply chain like I can you know I can make the steel but you know now am am I bringing the steel from.

40:32.22 robert solomon Ah, foreign country. Well how much energy does that take and you know how does that affect supply chain. So I think a lot of effort's going to really be on alternative materials for building construction. You mentioned the pfas issue with with a triple f right same thing we have that and pretty much every. Type one Aircraft hanger in the us whether it's military or civilian or commercial hangar. But that's that's where american technology and an effort comes in the the manufacturers of the a triple Fc like ah, yeah, you know this I see where this is going my product won't be able to be sold after some period of time or states are going to regulate are going to regulate it out of use I better come up with an alternative so it it it puts that bonus or burden back on. Those manufacturers to come up with the next thing and they did right that you know they they came up with the ah the flooring free phone. So the where there's there. There's always a way to figure it out is is is what I've learned if anything over you know 40 years in this business. So.

41:44.37 firecodetech Oh yeah, definitely it's remarkable how fast that they've spun up those new foam solutions with even though they're remarkably different with their viscosities and how much they had to alter their.

41:55.47 robert solomon But.

42:00.18 firecodetech Inductors and all the associated equipment and still. It's like we have listed products coming out for those things. So it's It's pretty remarkable. How just it changes and people figure it out. Um.

42:10.80 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly yeah yeah, you know I mean a micro version of that it wasn't so much the environmental thing but if you recall and I got to say like couple years ago it's probably at least fifteen years ago now maybe

42:18.23 firecodetech This.

42:29.20 robert solomon 12 years um whenever we had the ban on antifreze and sprinkler systems right? You know Nfpa took a very you know hard stance on that and you know the um you know the committee kind of you know, kind of put use of antifreeze on the back shelf like you can't use it because of a couple of events that.

42:47.85 robert solomon Associates was made aware of so what happened you know the the manufacturers you know, figure out how to make an antifreeze that's not combustible even in a hundred percent concentrated form but you know so so you know there's a case where um. The antifreeze. Actually you know made the fire potentially worse and that's then hey you know the fire sprinkler system's purpose is to make the fire go away not to enhance it. But there's another one of those circumstances where you know where the manufacturers figured out a way to. Come up with a a non-combustible interfreze concentrate.

43:28.75 firecodetech Yeah I think that's a great example because ah, you know at the early part of my career we were I was working for a suppression contractor and we were ripping those systems out of places and then now I'm designing systems small systems for you know that.

43:35.85 robert solomon Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:46.24 firecodetech Spaces like little garages or attic spaces that those systems fit perfectly and now I'm getting to install those systems So that's a great point on how technology and manufacturing can find a way and that innovation piece is pretty cool.

44:01.80 robert solomon Yeah, definitely definitely. Yeah.

44:05.18 firecodetech So I Saw that recently that you were a part of a section in the nfpa handbook about smart technologies and how that um impacts or affects fire and life safety. I'd love to hear about that if you wouldn't mind speaking about it.

44:23.26 robert solomon Yeah, sure. So yeah, that's that's ah, that's a new chapter in the new edit of the handbook the twenty first edition of the handbook that came out recently. So my collaborat on that is gentleman named Ken Boyce from other writers laboratories uow and ah. i' bet ket over the years at the U Fire Council meetings so when I was on the council and then one of my last presentations at Nfpa was in November of 19 and 1919 of 2019 ah, where the the research foundation ran a 2 wo-day symposium on um, ah, kind of electrical data needs and I presented kind of looking at that from the perspective of of bias or the international standards organization. My last three or four years at Fpa I chaired the us tag for an Iso committee IsoTC268 which dealt with smart and sustainable communities. So a lot of what that had to deal with it had to deal with kind of the measures. That you know jurisdictions whether it's city a county a state. It could be the whole country. Um or subdivision know a township or a town Whatever some of the measures they could do to look at their sustainability kind of provisions and you know one of the things that are.

45:47.98 robert solomon Committees had worked on. We looked at some of the metrics about about what you would measure. But we also looked at the ways that you would measure it and that involved extensive use of smart technologies right? you know sensors whether it's a camera or it's something embedded in the sidewalk or embedded in the street to. Look at pedestrian traffic vehicle traffic. Ah you know to to to collect data about you know about about bus routes about garbage collection times. So so that that was kind of the the piece I I talked about at that event and Ken was a. Ah, presented on some of that from the ul perspective so we were asked to kind of put something together around smart technologies I think the initial idea was to focus it on smart firefighting and there's a whole ah fire protection research foundation report on that which is awesome. But we said you know look this is you know this isn't just smart firefighting right? This is this is something that affects my opinion every aspect of the built environment right? So everything from the time the developer says I want to build a whatever. Right? And then they might have ah they might have a small internal design team is this that design team starts firing up their revt model all of a sudden now I have like that first piece of smart technology I've got something that's going to get translated.

47:21.72 robert solomon To the other consultants. Um, it's probably going to get translated as part of the as built drawings for the building and then those things are going to start to connect to maybe oh elevator. Oh here here's here's all my elevator specs over here here's the manufacturers criteria for the actual elevators that I have installed. So. All of a sudden you you have this? ah this ecosystem that is connected from obviously the design stage all the way through building lifecycle. So I think our our our chapter kind of work to connect those pieces together how you know ah kind of kind of how it all works. Everything that we do now there's there's some aspect right? I mean what you know you know you and I are using smart technology today even though we're using you know computers or cameras or whatever right? Those those kind of fit into that because we're connected to the internet somewhere and and I think that's really any. Any device or component that kind of can get online like that and go to the cloud somewhere that that kind of falls into this broad category of of smart technology. So we we kind of laid out the the basics of that and talked about like you know you know. Where this appears I mean it appears in tractors and combines it appears in the medical community and the medical devices. Um it. It appears in traffic lights and traffic signals. So so it's everywhere. it's around us um I don't think it's going away I think if anything right? There's going to be more of it. So.

48:59.27 robert solomon So we tried to set that broad landscape about all the places that smart technology shows up and appears and you know some people say well my privacy my privacy my privacy. Um I think. I think the days of privacy are I I don't say that they're gone but you know like we you know we we we all have to decide if we're going to carry a smartphone and if we carry a smartphone you know we're going to lose some of that privacy. We can control. Maybe what what app is tracking us but we we have to make those decisions. So so what we try to do is is lay out that broad landscape and then and then kind of bring it back to. Okay, when we look at the built environment in codes and standards. You know what? what are? what are some places that this is working in right now and and you look in n f p 25 and and nfpa twenty. For example, you see some things that we now can monitor remotely will let you will let that count towards your Nfpa 25 itm inspection or maybe a weekly test instead of having a person to physically go there open the door. And watch the pump run for 20 minutes and then go back. So so you know there there are ways that we can improve those efficiencies but there's also the performance criteria the codes had ah the standards. How to add it right in Nfk Twenty five and thirteen and nfk twenty as examples and those are.

50:30.16 robert solomon Those are the the 3 I think we ah we talk about the most you know within the new chapter. Um, so you know that that that was the purpose of that um I I hope that I hope we achieve that there I mean there's so much you could write. And what's interesting is you know what people don't realize those handbooks take a long time to produce and nfpa did ah I think did an awesome job with it. Um, but that content it's content that Ken and I wrote probably back in most of it. January February of 2021 and you look at how many things have changed since then right it those.

51:02.95 firecodetech Wow. Well.

51:05.67 robert solomon And those 2 years right so we we had. We had a chance to add a few more things a bit later in the year but you know there's a point where okay, you know it's going into production. You can only make editorial changes you you know you can't add the new substance. But I said that whole area of ah of smart systems. You know there's there's something. New. It seems like almost every day that you learn about or read about or or kind of the next thing that that's around the corner. So.

51:31.96 firecodetech Yeah, yeah, it's It's so ubiquitous that you know you get into. We do a lot of military work and you know they don't want smart devices in there because it's a cybersecurity threat and it's like trying to find ah a pump or something a domestic water pump or something that's not already.

51:39.25 robert solomon Right.

51:49.50 firecodetech Have bluetooth capabilities. It's like they're having to scramble to find something in the range of the manufacturers. They're used to. That's not smart capable or disabled in some ways. So it's ah fascinating how ubiquitous it is. But.

51:57.73 robert solomon At right.

52:04.14 robert solomon Right.

52:06.21 firecodetech Robert I want to be mindful of your time and I've really enjoyed the conversation and lots of great topics and we didn't get to all the questions I had for you. But um I just really appreciate. It was a great conversation and thanks for coming on the show.

52:13.69 robert solomon Just go.

52:22.65 robert solomon All right? Well again, thank you very much and I said it's it's great for me to see young folks like you. Ah you know getting in this business and that was one of your questions right? We we need more and you know I think if I've got a minute here. 1 of the questions I want to make sure we hit on. You know he said what.

52:33.38 firecodetech Sure.

52:38.32 robert solomon But what are the other things to attract more people and I think one of the right I think Sfpe is doing a great job I think the individual universities do a great job of that outreach one of the things that that I see is ah a potentially untapped group of ah of engineers. It's the 24 schools that have architectural engineering programs and I I know there's one at Wpi. That's where most of my students come in um to my class from there's 1 at Oklahoma state for example, but I think I think that I think. Architectural engineers are kind of like fps because like they're learning a little bit about every building system and feature and they they already have a pretty good background on understanding electrical systems and and how the architect works and the structural piece. Ah and the plumbing pieces. So.

53:13.95 firecodetech M.

53:29.43 robert solomon I think I think that's ah, that's maybe an untapped group that we all could be looking at to to maybe go talk to the architectural engineering students at these you know, handful of schools that offer those programs to you know, get them interested and then have them. You know come to work and then you know part time. You know, go get your masters at Cal Paulley or Maryland or Wpi or I don't even know who all who all has them now of the Us. But those are some things to I think that's a good place to look for for new new folks.

53:59.50 firecodetech That's a great point I appreciate you touching on that because I see just nonstop on Linkedin Job posting job posting job posting people are looking for new hires and I think that you know as a industry we have to be better at outreach going to Ashray and.

54:08.99 robert solomon Kind of.

54:17.24 firecodetech Going to these other professional Societies. You know going and speaking with other college degree plans like the architectural engineering and putting the thought of fire protection and the promise of what a great field. It is and in those young minds. So I Appreciate that point we got to get creative and um. Let ah get the word out about how great this profession is so that's a great point to end on.

54:38.44 robert solomon Yeah, great. Okay, well yeah, yeah, thank you very much and yeah, um, best of luck with the podcast who and you and you you your their fulltime job so it sounds sounds like sounds like you've had a you've had a good niche here as well. So enjoy.

54:54.12 firecodetech Um, yeah, oh thank you very much.

Bryan Hoskins Phd. PE. Is a professor at Oklahoma State University in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program. Topics covered in this episode are myths about evacuation, performance based design, and understanding the intent of codes and standards.

Transcript: 

00:02.86 firecodetech Well hello Bryan welcome to the firecode Tech podcast. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you because my pleasure. Awesome.

00:07.56 Bryan Hoskins Thank you guys My pleasure. Glad to be here.

00:13.66 firecodetech Well I always like to get these things started with talking about how you found fire and life safety as a career path.

00:22.41 Bryan Hoskins Well my stories rather interesting I'll give you the short version here because I go on for a long time on this but it's also one I think it's fairly typical in fire protection. Um, and that well there are some people who know about fire protection early on.

00:38.87 Bryan Hoskins I didn't actually discover it until after I was already in college. So I grew up in the San Francisco bay area um and after my junior year. My I have a twin brother so him and I convince our parents to take us on a three week 14 school tour. Um, where we hit schools throughout the entire country. Um that three week tour though was let's say we flew in and out of Nashville and went everywhere from Florida to Massachusetts and through the midwest and everything else. It was a very busy few weeks there. Um. But I know I want to do engineering because I like enjoyed math and science and my senior yearr in high school I had an advanced chemistry elective where well so a prevviewing wifi protection's a good decision. My group everything we did to get to choose their own experiments. Every one of mine groups except for one involves stuff exploding or flames or something else. Another elective I had in high school that I start out and enjoyed was psychology. So what do you do with chemistry fire. And psychology. Well it was obvious then looking back that yes fire protection special life safety was the route I was intended to go but I know I did existed. We happened to stop at the University Of Maryland

01:57.15 firecodetech Are.

02:08.80 firecodetech Wow.

02:11.43 Bryan Hoskins Because my brother was he's the one who actually put Maryland on the list. Um, he really wanted to see it because he was going into aerospace engineering specifically astro there some opportunities there that he didn't that weren't available elsewhere so he put it on the list.

02:27.82 Bryan Hoskins And while we had agreed that neither one of us was going to make the other one decide where they had to go to school. Um, we still end up applying to a lot of the same school so Maryland for me adding it on was something of well this way I mean I did enjoy the campus and if it was something that i. Oh wasn't necessarily a bad one and he really wanted to go there so I put an application but we'd agreed we weren't going to decide based on what the 1 did and then found out about an opportunity I got at Meland that I didn't have anywhere else which was I got accepted in to which I didn't even know this program applied when. Had even applied there but they had what's called the gemstone program which was a 4 year interdisciplinary team research undergraduate team research project in science technology and society and that really appealed to me so it's okay, I'll go to Maryland still no clue that fire protection exists. Um. I also knew I didn't know enough about the engineering field. So I went in undecided engineering and then it oh and I took my time to go and look around at the different majors. Um I know I didn't want to do electrical or computer because that wasn't something that necessarily appealed to me. But. What's the difference mechanical civil aerospace and oh this is fire protectionction 1 let me look at that as well. Um, and as I started to look at it. Some of the big selling points to me. Obviously as I said the okay like fire flames in that chemistry class psychology.

04:01.43 Bryan Hoskins Really fits but 1 of the other big selling points on it to me and this is something that's also true of our program at Osu because Maryland program was founded by an osu alum but when I went to mechanical engineering to talk to them. It was as if I was a number. As I was just sitting there. The advisor said I mean what's the best way to put it later on though I was at an awards banquet a few years later that advisor was hinting out the wordss for mechanical engineering and read off a name and it see well I guess he's not here. She then walked up and so it was such an I mean I had the impression was a number thing and when one of your top students is getting awards you don't even know if they're a male student or a female student and he was the one who is advising everyone. Um. And there was that you're just a number meanwhile with fire protection when I went there I remember meeting with the program head on a Friday afternoon and we had a conversation someone like this one here where it was well let me know what you're interested in. Why were you considering this. Friday afternoon I got there like 4 we talked until about six o'clock so the facts there's a faculty member willing to stay talk to me about the program for a few hours on a Friday afternoon. Um, and there's really that sense of family and community and fire protection which is something that I thought.

05:20.74 firecodetech Wow.

05:36.68 Bryan Hoskins Yes, This is a good fit for me so curriculume lines up then oh the atmosphere lines up and that's how I got into fire protection. So a lot of sort of chances If This hadn't happened that hadn't happened wouldn't be here but I'm very glad that I found it because it is a. Probably the perfect fit for me.

05:55.89 firecodetech Wow, That's awesome means some really neat stuff there in that first just your background piece talking about you know your interests at an early age in chemistry and and fire and then how that like that sense of family and.

06:05.54 Bryan Hoskins With him.

06:12.16 firecodetech In fire and life safety which is something I've always seen people kind of band together because of the just the nature of it and yeah I didn't know that about the okay state being founded by a Maryland lum either that kind of blows my mind because of the tensions between the 2 Oh yeah, yeah.

06:21.28 Bryan Hoskins Me want a way around oh prof Brian who founded the program at Maryland Graduate from Osu.

06:30.64 firecodetech Oh I didn't realize that Wow that's very interesting, Very interesting. Awesome Well to give the listeners a little bit more context Would you speak a little bit about your professional roles and.

06:33.80 Bryan Hoskins Death.

06:50.45 firecodetech Kind of positions that you've held and and how that work has colored your context now as a professor.

06:55.34 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so in this I'll say 1 thing that I always encourage all of our students do and that's readily offered oh is getting internships so I'll start with some of the internships I had and how that sort of shaped. So my career decisions going forward. So first internship it was right after I had decided I was going to do fire protection because that was my sophomore year summer after Sophomore year I had had 1 fire protection class at that point so not too much in it. But oh. Was going to be home for the summer and wanted to have a meaningful experience and oh from that talk to professor milkke um, at Maryland that spring of the okay I'm going home for this I'm going be home for spring break then home for the summer. Um, I said before I grew up in the San Francisco bay area so the opposite coast of the country and it was so what options do we have out there. Um and he gave me context for 2 different alums that were in the bay area I met with both of them over spring break. Um. And then that led to a job offer from Jensen Hughes or actually at the time it was just cues. Um, because they had some major projects going on that summer where it was smoke control I had never had a smoke control class but they needed someone.

08:26.86 Bryan Hoskins To climb up ladders and make sure dampers had closed um to go through and just do a lot of that type of work which okay, you don't need much in terms of classes and other things to be working on those projects. Um. And because how the schedule went in the month of July I got four days off Sunday the 1st july although that one almost didn't happen and then two of the other sundays um, and each day we were working again at the first job site about 9 am m leaving the last one about midnight one a m. Um, then I had to get home and rinse strike cycle repeat for the entire month. Um, now I was being paid over time for all those extra hours. So it was a very lucrative summer but what I really took away from that 1 um, was just that value of the hands on experience. Because never had smoke control but when I took smoke control later on elderly. Okay, this makes a lot more sense because I've seen it done it and understand what things are and even my class sits today I make sure when talk about smoke control. Okay when we're talking about the special inspector process. Well I was there as the guy was doing it. So here's what people do when they do this rather than as well I read about in a book. Um, but actually having that intimate knowledge there. Um I also while in school um spent a year. Well not quite a year because it was supposed to start.

10:02.91 Bryan Hoskins In the fall of the year when there was the anthrax scare in the capol. So my position got delayed starting a little bit because that same office was dealing with all of that so they couldn't quite take on a student at the start of the semester. Um, but I was working with the congressional office of compliance and that was also a very. Eyeopening experience because dealing with the library of congress buildings dealing with congressional office buildings. There are I mean I got to see an actual halon system while I was there which is something that isn't very common. But there was a lot of understanding of from that sort of hj perspective. How do you do things especially in that environment where there's code compliance but you can't make that building code. Compliant. So how do you have to sort of analyze the hazards and while we weren't doing official performance-based design type of approach. It was that same process of understanding. Okay, what are the hazards what's the intent of the code. How can we make these buildings a situation safe. Enough for oh people to be in the building I was actually the first ever intern that they had hired um and it was a wonderful experience just to see it from that perspective other positions I've had before getting into academia.

11:32.62 Bryan Hoskins Um I spent a year working for Europe um out there San Francisco office doing primarily life safety plan review which again, that's a lot of the okay so how is it that you go about applying things. To the real world. Plus it also helps I think when I have students of well why are you giving us this I had that assigned to me in my first six weeks on the job. You're gonna be graduating soon if they handed it to me. They can hand it to you. So let's get you ready for those things. Um. And again seeing sort of that overall hierarchy of how everything fits together and works together and you have in that office a lot of different trades plus also a lot of the workouts doing with more performance-based design and so really diving into again that sort of. Here's the intent of the code. How can we make sure that our building meets the intent of the code even if we can't quite meet the letter of it. Um, and then the other position I had before oh coming to Osu was working for the national instituteive standards and technology. Nist in the fire research area. Um, and that was a really meaningful experience in that I got to see just when you're trying to look at the problem finding identify. Okay.

13:06.58 Bryan Hoskins Doing research identifying. Okay here's potential issues was it's collecting data here's what the data says um and being able to then bring that back into because National stand technology. It's the department of Commerce and so it's not just doing research for research Sake. It's and now how is this going to be used to help improve things and so that was a big learning experience there as well.

13:34.86 firecodetech So That's awesome. Well I wanted to I see how you know your interests in the commercial more commercial side of things have influenced. So What you research Now. So That's very interesting I like hearing about that. Performance-based design and the different you know real-world application and you know looking back at my time at Osu I can see you know some of the exercises that we did in like you know our life safety class where we're really looking at the building code and functionally going through those.

14:03.64 Bryan Hoskins We.

14:12.16 firecodetech Now I do those every day so I'm very thankful for that background and when I got out into the workforce I could really see how that set okay state grads apart from people who didn't and were just looking at the code for the first time so I just wanted to.

14:25.73 Bryan Hoskins You.

14:29.23 firecodetech You know say thanks for that and then I could see that in your teaching and I and I resonate with that as you're speaking about it now. Um, but yeah.

14:34.87 Bryan Hoskins Us to add on to that I'll just like to add that 1 thing that I've noticed happens. Well a lot in my career is that I try to bring that stuff into the classroom I've had students multiple many times write me like six months after they graduate of. Yeah, when going through your class I didn't understand why you expected us to know all this and do all this at the time thought it was ridiculous again, there's six months in their job. Don't change because it turns out this is what my employer expects so when the students grumble about it. Don't listen to them because what you're doing is a big service to them to help them getting ready for what the career world is rather than just the academic side of things.

15:28.23 firecodetech Yeah, definitely I think that there is a lot of great stuff in the I had you for fire dynamics and the the life safety course and just I mean the fire protection engineering exam is very heavily weighted on that. Fire dynamics. It seems to me and that's a great thing that we could talk about too is your ah recent experience in helping with the sfp prep course but not to get too far off track but it just seems logical in the in the conversation topic. But.

15:52.65 Bryan Hoskins Um.

15:59.45 Bryan Hoskins Yeah.

16:04.34 firecodetech It's all kind of placed together. You know you do it as a practicing engineer or at least a lot of people involved with performance based design do and then it's also in the engineering exam. So all these things kind of dovetail education experience and professional licensure.

16:20.63 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, I'd say it's as so they all dovetail together. Um people sometimes try to think about everything being separate but in reality, everything's always interconnected and woven you can't just focus in on 1 thing. It's always see well this ties into that and here's how everything interconnects and as you mentioned yeah I've been one of the things that I've done professionally is work with the SfPEP exam prep course which is something I very much enjoy because I Think. Talk a little bit more later about all my professional involvement but I think it's very important that oh at least in my position I Realize how much the people before me have done to set it up so where we have the profession that we do. And I think it's very important to give back because I and those again it's more label but part is I Went to back Demo's ability to give back to the profession to have an even bigger impact than I could by just being a consulting engineer for example or. Working in an Hj's office or whatever it is have an opportunity to give back because I realize how much others they've given to me and the P exam prep course is a good example of that because there are many many people who go through that.

17:50.12 Bryan Hoskins Um, and I will say the success rate of students who have taken that course um, who've then gone on to pass pass rates much much higher than the overall pass rate and it's a sizeable percentage of people that are passing or basically taking that course. Because it does get into all the different topics. Um, it's for those students who've been at Osu you've already covered a lot of those topics in your classes and same thing goes to people who might have a degree from Maryland or Wpi or any of the other universities. But. As we all know that's not the majority of people in the field. Most people are there because they've got a degree in something else in those universities while we would love to be having more students. It's getting people to know about it before they come to college or in their first few years

18:33.12 firecodetech Um, yeah.

18:45.90 Bryan Hoskins Um, a lot of people don't discover the field until after they've graduated from college and so for those people who might have been a mechanical engineer by nature who so then they get hired by a firm that oh well, you can do air movement. So here start doing this vent work for a. Smoke control system or okay, you know fluids and pipes here you're gonna be doing sprinklers and so then they learn their one specific area but not all the others and the area I've been teaching though for the P exam Prep courses. Well both on passive Fire protection. Um, which is one that. But even a lot of people who've gone through some of those other programs in Osu don't have a deep knowledge base in um, what? well as to human behavior and have helped with the means of egress one as Well. So very much in just. Teaching people about okay here's what it means and like I do in my classes I tend to focus more on why things are the way they are in the codes and standards or how to approach problems and less on these sort of well here memorize these rules. Um. The reason being is that and I know number of us who have taught for the P Exam prep course we've had this conversation but is the intent of the course when you're teaching something like that just a get ready for the test or is it about.

20:19.70 Bryan Hoskins Giving people the knowledge base they need to be successful in the field and I will sound that one while we are I said very good success rate and give people ready for the exam but there's also a lot of emphasis on not just here here's the question learn how to do these particular skills and then you're done. It's. Really trying to make sure that the people who go through that have a better understanding of what it means to be a fire protection engineer um not just that they can do certain problems because there's other P Exam Prep course is out there that are much more of that you just want to learn how to do problems. They'll do that. Um.

20:47.73 firecodetech Yeah, yeah.

20:56.27 Bryan Hoskins But personally I prefer the approach that sfpe has taken which is why that's the one I'm been working with um which is much more that holistic. Let's tell you what you need to know and in the process you'll get better for the exam. But ultimately I want. People who graduate from Osu that have been in my classes or who take that p exam prep course or any other professional development course that I teach is I want them to be able to go out and be a better professional. Not well I put in my time got the checkbox and so now it's time to move on.

21:34.11 firecodetech Yeah I Know what you mean? Yeah,, That's a good point I like the sentiment of understanding the deeper meaning why and the more I get into my professional career the more I'm impressed by professionals that don't just can't aren't just regurgitating code. You know, but they understand the deeper meaning and the intent and and have the ability to push back when the official is is not asking for something that is not you know with what the intent of the code What is asking and so. Think that's very important the more you get into the profession is to understand why and not just be a code Jockey somebody who just you know is very lawyeristic I mean you have to be but um, you need both. But yeah.

22:22.29 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, yeah, and I'll also add to that one especially at Osu which the reason why there I'm even more stressing why things are the way they are done is I like to point out to students of one. The codes are always changing. Um, if you memorize all you're doing is memorizing numbers or something like that. Well what if you know the say twenty eighteen edition of the Ibc and then you're on the 21 edition of Nfpa one one. What's going on in those 2 but from a life safety standpoint the numbers change maybe well gray areas might shift one way or the other. But what's going on. There is no different love them. We get to the 2033 edit of the code I can guarantee you that there will be major differences from what there are now not necessarily sure what.

23:06.85 firecodetech And.

23:19.16 Bryan Hoskins Those are going to be um, but we know that they're going to change over time and if all that you ever do is memorize. Okay, here's what this one particular section is right now that doesn't give you the flexibility when you're going to the different additions of the code. Plus let's say you get. A project 1 time. That's overseas. Well you have to meet their code but you also have to consider from a life safety standpoint and what's going on there and are you actually meeting the temp because the intent of the codes. That's pretty much stable. We're not seeing Matt change. 1 addition to the next. And so understanding those helps with performance-based design helps when you end up in different jurisdictions. Um, and yeah, ultimately it's gonna make you a better professional if you understand why rather than simply relying on the what.

24:13.52 firecodetech Yeah, that's a good point and you never know you know whether you're going to be working on a department of defense job or a V a job or a fm you know, global criteria job where the criteria is going to shift so dramatically that.

24:23.93 Bryan Hoskins Um, okay.

24:31.51 firecodetech You know if you don't have your fundamentals rock solid Then you're just gonna just be totally unwired in your capability to design or function in that space So is very important and um, but yeah, so let's talk about.

24:40.70 Bryan Hoskins Never.

24:47.77 firecodetech Your role now at Osu and we've alluded to it several times already. But um, ah, you know how you're a professor now and a little bit of background on the program at ok state of course go poke. So I'll always like to um. Promote the program when I get a chance to.

25:06.91 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so oh Oklahoma State University has the oldest still active fire protection program in the nation. Um, so we've been around a long time longer than any of the others and it was founded. Originally. Um, to well teach some of the basics of fire protection then as study changed and Osha came into existence the program adding the safety con component. Now we have some students who think it's fire protection or safety. Um, but the facts you like to emphasis. It's fire protection and safety. Um a lot of what gets done in the fire protection realm in the safety realm you're doing a lot of the same basic things. Um. And so it's easy to transition from one to the other. They're not 2 distinct things. They're really in both cases you're trying to identify hazards trying to identify mitigation strategies for those hazards and then it just comes down to that specific application that you're applying it to. Um, but I will say the 1 thing that I think osu does better than any of the other programs I am biased here, but it's very much. It's an engineering technology program and engineering technology. What.

26:38.74 firecodetech Um, yeah.

26:41.70 Bryan Hoskins Separates that is it's far more based on the hands on so in our program majority of the classes that are in major have a lab component. So the students get to go actually touch feel experience see. Whaters arere talking about. They're not just reading about it in a book. Um, and I think that's a very valuable skill set to have um, going back to said earlier of learn about smoke control being able to go into buildings and see. Those dampers operating and seeing how the special inspection was going helped me understand that far more than just reading about in a book does um and so I think that's one of the big advantages to the Osu program is that hands on applied. Oh part of the program. And not just pure theory now as far as what I've taught there what I cover. Um, okay I've just said it's not it's fire and safety. That being said I tend to teach classes are a little bit more fire focused because that's. I got my degree. Oh that's also I mean I'm a professional fire protection and I'm a professional licensed fire protection engineer. So yeah, that's my main area but as far as that goes oh my first semester at Osu I was teaching.

28:11.19 Bryan Hoskins Butker design and oh the at the time called structural design for fire and life safety where it covered passive fire protection and nfpa one one basically put the building code passive fire protection nfpa one a one and human behavior all into one course.

28:29.61 firecodetech Our shit.

28:30.65 Bryan Hoskins Um, we have since split that up some because it was about too too many important Concepts all being crammed into one course. Um so I've taught I said taught their own passive life safety Human behavior.

28:49.83 Bryan Hoskins And building code all at once then the next semester added in human factors. Um, which okay, that's not fire protection but it's closely related to a lot of things I do which is looking at human response and emergencies.

29:09.50 Bryan Hoskins Um, and so it ties in very much directly with the research and again life safety side that I've been interested in after that because of some changes in faculty and other changes I taught oh and continue to teach The. So suppression detection course. Um that covers as again as's one as class we put probably too much in at first because it's the only class in the major on fire alarms. The only class in the major that covered special Hazards um and covered the start of Sprinkler systems.

29:46.58 Bryan Hoskins All into one course. Um, now we split off that special Hazards more into an elective which I teach Um, that's also available as a grad course and that suppression detection class has shifted to being still the introduction to sprinkler systems as well as much more on fire alarms.

29:54.25 firecodetech Um.

30:04.61 Bryan Hoskins And just how codes and standards operate and work then I also as you mentioned earlier top fire dynamics for a few years um as just as best fit for who was on faculty at the time be teaching that I've taught oh smoke control.

30:24.36 Bryan Hoskins Um, and oh yeah, so that's pretty much everything on the pe exam prep course except for I haven't yet got fluids because of just other faculty have gotten that one. Um, but I've covered so much of What's on the p exam but I also think it's important. Um for someone who's a professor to have taught that wide range because 1 in order to understand if you can understand you you can teach something you have to understand it. Um, and. Because if you're trying to teach and you don't understand it. It's going to be a failure for everyone at that point. Um and so having that is good plus by having that bread. Of course that I've taught I mean and you might remember this from some of the class but routinely point out. And then in this class here's how this ties together and then in this class. Oh so bringing in those connections which you know best when? okay, very taught that class. So okay, well in that class. You did this here's how that's relevant here because far too often students. Um, which they learn better than this when they get older but students a lot of times view the class that say okay I have to learn this stuff for the test and then I can immediately forget it and never have to know it again. Um, and they don't.

31:57.57 Bryan Hoskins See all those interconnections but the as many of your listeners probably know as you get into a real profession even if oh there's one area that you primarily work in you don't just use the 1 class and that's it. You're having to pull in multiple things all through it. Everything's interconnected and so by teaching all those things it makes it even easier for me to point out to the students directly. Okay, you covered that here. That's how this applies here. So if you need to go back and review what was there this would be a good time to do it. To just tie in this entire experience of learning. Um rather than viewing it as a bunch of separate individual steps.

32:43.64 firecodetech Oh yeah, That's a great point because our profession is notorious for being just widespread I mean mechanical systems electrical systems life safety and you're looking at building construction and paci fire protection and So. You're you the whole profession is based on being a jack of all trades. So.

33:09.42 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, and I will say earlier I'd mentioned how I end up fire protection. The one part I meant to add in there as well is to just echo what you said is one of the other things that that to our conversation with the program had um that drew me in was that. You had to be f like we have to pull in all these different things because just personally I prefer having to okay I can use stuff from Psychology Sociology and human Behavior. So You have to understand that you have to understand the mechanical civil. As but to a lot of other majors where you end up being much more siloed you're not using as many different things and that required breath was something that definitely peeled to me because it was yes, there's more to this field. More opportunities more career paths that are available than in some of the others.

34:09.67 firecodetech That's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a good career for somebody who likes to be interested in in varied pursuits and very engineering so varied engineering systems because. I Mean there's just so many different things you could look at especially I mean people get into product fire protection and Ul listings and ah fm approvals I mean so you could be looking at fire and lie safety characteristics about anything in the built environment and then also and in the product market as Well. So if you.

34:23.49 Bryan Hoskins Given.

34:39.67 Bryan Hoskins And that's one of the big advantages of yeah and I would say that's also one of the big advantages to the Osu program because it ties in again, both bar protection and safety. We've had many alums that they start out going down one path.

34:42.57 firecodetech If you want variety. It's integrate trade.

34:57.89 Bryan Hoskins And then go down something completely different and then get us something else because of what opportunities come up and just having that Osu degree has opened up doors that a lot of the other people just didn't have available to them because of how special our program is and. All the different things that it touches on it really gives someone many different options for where they want their career to go.

35:27.66 firecodetech There's a great point yet fire protection has awesome career opportunity and I love that point also about that you said about the hands on nature of the experience at Oklahoma state because as a professional you know. Everything looks good on paper and so you can design something and think oh yeah, it looks great. It meets all the code criteria. Well it doesn't fit in the room so you need to think about what does this physically look like and so I think that's a very important distinction to make that. Physical and corporeal manifestation of these fire and life safety features are just as important as their code compliance. But so I wanted to break into a little bit of your expertise in.

36:12.79 Bryan Hoskins Um.

36:21.65 firecodetech Um, evacuation and sort of your research topics. But I know that you have a big interest in these areas and just I was reading some of your technical one of the. Papers or pieces of work that you put out I'm not as well versed in like how to analyze or read literature this produce in Academia but I was trying and doing some research for the show. But I'd love to talk about? um.

37:00.70 firecodetech Just evacuation and what you're researching now and get into your professional expertise.

37:04.22 Bryan Hoskins Okay, so I where I've taught everything but my and as far as again so that ging also I'll touch on that sort of Breadth of knowledge of my senior research project. Was on passive fire protection looking at the effect of missing spray applied material on a steel. Trust my master thesis was on oh characterizing the flow from a foam nozzle. Um, both of those were based on the K which projects are available which projects have funding sure I can do that. Um, but good experiences. But for the Ph D I knew I needed to do something that was going to be what I enjoy because if you're going to torture of yourself to go through that process of getting a Ph D which I've done it and I still think anyone who does it is partially Insane. Um. There's no other real rational explanation there? Um, but going through that I knew it had to be something that I would enjoy because if you're spending that many years that diving that deep on a topic.

38:02.89 firecodetech Um.

38:14.62 Bryan Hoskins If it's not something that you truly have a passion about it's not going to end up Well um, and my passion I knew was in the area of human behavior and fire. Um I said Psychology Oh in high school tying that in.

38:21.00 firecodetech Yeah.

38:31.93 Bryan Hoskins And also life safety. Why am I in this field. Ultimately when I think about it's to help people. Um, it's what I want to do and not that designing a sprinkler system isn't helping people. It is um because you're keeping them safe when there's a fire. But looking at that human aspect and understanding how people behave and respond um is something that was very much of a yes this is something I need to be doing with my career. This is the avenue I want to go down. Um, and so my. Matt for my ph d um I spent a few years going through some stairwell building evacuations. Um, basically going frame by frame tracking what people were doing other people.

39:27.57 Bryan Hoskins Again, going back to the insane part thought that I can sit there day after day going frame by frame getting over 10000 data points collected from this. Um, that's to say they wouldn't have done it themselves but gingling back to that hands on part of it. What I found most valuable about that. Um was going through that I got a much better understanding and feel for what was going on there because if all that you have is numbers k engineers give me numbers. Give me. Oh. Excel or Spss Or Saft or one of those and I can spit out stuff I can get answers. But in the research field. 1 of the things that a lot of us. Well everyone knows is you can get numbers. But. The job of the researcher is to understand what those numbers mean and to put them into practice. Um, and so one of the I mentioned this in my class a lot but with human behavior and fire pretty much everything that we discover and new is not anything that.

40:24.79 firecodetech Are a.

40:41.81 Bryan Hoskins Is ever the Wow How is that true I would never have expected that it's always see Yeah, that's how things are but yet we've been designing not with that for years and I'll get into some examples of that um tuna. Well.

40:47.98 firecodetech Here.

40:57.19 firecodetech Um, and.

41:00.39 Bryan Hoskins First of all I'll talk about this is predates me but 1 of the big myths in human behavior is myth of panic because there was actually for years and years and years was you don't tell people what's going on in a building when there's a fire because they'll start to panic. Panics irrational anti-social behavior. Basically someone starts standing there frozen in fear or shoving other people all the way and so on you can find lots of examples of this in hollywood clips. Um, actually one lab in by safety I play a bunch of clips from Tv and movies showing how. They portray evacuation of fire and then find clips on like Youtube of how it actually responds um in that. What do we see the fire alarm goes off if people get up because that's just a drill I can just ignore this if they get up. They're walking orderly patiently letting other people pass them even when we look at oh case studies of real fires same thing so there was no reason to keep that information from people. But that's what the industry thought was everyone's going to panic. Um. Or there's another example that again predates me. But um, this one's 1 found by Prof Brian that again is not surprising but early code development and requirements were based on everyone would just walk out the building and that's basically's a fluid particle and that's how it would be.

42:37.54 Bryan Hoskins He came up with this Oh when he studied the Runndo Park fire. This revolutionary thing parents will go in after their children if they're left behind and they can't find them oh because parents went back in for their children that burning building or other people went in to rescue friends and other things rather than just the back wing outside and. That was revolutionary at the time but yet no one's also shocked that wait a parent would go after their kid. It's more the wait. Why would anyone think otherwise but that's what the industry did at the time so in my dissertation One of the big findings I had there. Um that has.

43:06.59 firecodetech Um, well.

43:15.64 Bryan Hoskins Changed how oh we approach some things is since I said it's looking at people back wing downstairs when you walk downstairs. You don't go straight make a ninety degree return go across make a ninety degree turn and go down. It's more of an arc a semicircle type shape around the landing I even remember talk to my advisor about this and it see are you sure so then pull up the videos. Yep and when I bring it up in class now I'm yet to find it tune of no no I walk down and make those sharp angles. Okay, well let me phrase it I've then had students when we did things onstairs walk that way simply to prove a point but it doesn't happen in real life and so that's thing a lot of this st in human behavior and fire is just pointing that out. Um, also say 1 thing I've done a number of. Talks and talk about human behavior and fire is mentioned okay, imagine the scenario you are sitting in an airport a major metropolitan airport. One of those hub airports and the fire alarm goes off oh what are you going to do. And then play a video that's on Youtube of a fire at one of the major hub airports and was it show and you can pull this up yourself from multiple different airports multiple different places. Other things was it show. Everyone's sitting there. Oh no, 1 ne's trying to get back through security.

44:49.42 Bryan Hoskins Um, to have to cross back through and every time I've talked to people is that what you expect all but well all, but basically 1 time have I had people say yeah, that's what I expected. The 1 time was talking to a bunch of politicians. And they were shocked that not everyone listened to the directions. Um I guess politicians have a different perspective on things but everyone else is the yeah that doesn't surprise me. That's what I'm used to That's why I expect the announcement comes on and people ignore it. And so that then gets into and I've done research in this area as well. Not just the movement but also looking at how do we effectively get information to people what is needed to get them to go from that just sitting there to actually starting to evacuate and so. How is it that the notification process works getting time back into that human behavior and fire area.

45:52.91 firecodetech Yeah,, That's very interesting I Definitely think Politicians have a different view of reality. But that's ah off topic. Um, that's but ah, another thing I was just thinking about and I didn it to. Provide this before this might be I don't know if you'll have an answer for this but I had a question about like performance based design versus a more prescriptive design and I know that the answer is probably it depends. But.

46:28.50 Bryan Hoskins Nothing.

46:30.60 firecodetech If you could give any insight to which one of these methods have greater allowances for life safety or if there is a break even point in building size or complexity where that might be.

46:49.39 Bryan Hoskins So you're right? The answer is it depends. Um, it's actually it's difficult in that I don't think that there is a specific point of.

46:51.26 firecodetech That's a difficult.

47:02.92 Bryan Hoskins Okay, when you get to this may square foot this many dollar figure. Whatever metric of sort of a cut and dry line. Um, because for example, New Zealand at one point went to everything had to be performance based and that did not work so well.

47:21.98 Bryan Hoskins Um, but everything being prescriptive does not work. Well either. And really if we look at and I talk about this in life safety. So this is not really too far with stretch for a question I so of already know my answer in advance and actually talking about this. Just. Yesterday in class when we look at the prescriptive code. The prescriptive code is in many ways a performance base code and hear me out on this when we look at the prescriptive code. Where do numbers like maximum travel distance come from number of exits come from. Well it's based on golden objectives that could set so nfpa 1 one for example, is anyone not into most fire shall be kept safe long enough to evacuate relocate. Um, or defend in place and so you can see that similarity to okay and you're doing performance space design you have to come up with your goals and objectives and that's very easily one that's going to be there anyone not into with fire shall be kept safe.

48:35.34 Bryan Hoskins And then if we look at the code how they okay theoretically where did numbers like travel distance. Oh come from. Well it's based on a typical building. We'll have this type of fuel loading in it and that's why it's different for chakmancy in part. Um, so here's the expected fuel loading here's the expected ceiling height. Oh therefore the time until the smoke layer descends to where people are at should be about this much time we know the speed people walk at put in a safety factor there. And so with this setup everyone will be out safely before the fire becomes too big now I say theoretical. That's where it comes from because I think most of its numbers actually came from people at a conference room 1 time going. Okay, we need to come up with a number. Okay, that 1 looks good. Let's see there. Um, but. In theory where it comes from its at so like the ockment load factors where do they come from going out studying a building counting the number of people getting the dimensions and adapting it for that. So the prescriptive code. It's very good. For a building that's similar to that assumed building and many of our buildings are because you're dealing with okay seven foot 6 to ten foot ceiling heights not too much different. The commodities in them are gonna be about the same people in them. We can start to come up with those.

49:56.10 firecodetech Um, and.

50:03.47 firecodetech Naning.

50:09.32 Bryan Hoskins Methods to approximate what it's going to be and as far as the having the committee then set what the minimum standard is saves a lot of time and effort because if every project has to be performance based.. That's a significant time investment. Um, for all the stakeholders involved and for a simple 3 story office building where they're building 50 of them in the town type of thing. Why go through each one of those projects and have to do that when the prescriptive code works very well for that. It saves time effort money. So for a simple building that's sort of meeting what that stereotypical building sort of underlying the prescriptive descriptive codes is just do prescriptive but a number of the numbers in the prescriptive code.

51:03.20 firecodetech Um, appreciate that.

51:07.94 Bryan Hoskins And mentioned in class yesterday they're arbitrary what I mean by that is let's say I have 500 people in a room I can have two doors out of there and it's perfectly acceptable by code perfectly safe I put in 1 more person.

51:16.60 firecodetech Um, yeah.

51:25.42 Bryan Hoskins Point two percent change in the occupant load that one person I now have to put in a third exit door have I really changed the safety in that building by changing the augment load by 0.2% that I now have to. Put in a third door. No 501 peoples meet just as safe as five hundred with two exits there's not any study date or anything 500 is round number and that's the number they got picked now I'm not saying that 500 bad number I'm saying it's an arbitrary number and that's the advantage to performance space design on 1 project that I worked on. Um while at europe there was a large casino. Um, that was being proposed to be built and to make it work.

52:05.63 firecodetech Yeah.

52:21.51 Bryan Hoskins They're gonna have to have some like 12 or 13 stairs to meet travel distance requirements scattered throughout that floor. The owner did not like that idea why for security reasons putting in a lot of stair shafts makes dead spaces and security becomes a problem also just the. Um, beyond that they wanted there so you can look across the room and see the person winning way over there. Um, so that way you felt like you could be winning at your table so they wanted that more open area and travel distance is meaningful for a normal building.

52:43.55 firecodetech My kids.

52:58.79 Bryan Hoskins But let's think about against one of those major Las Vegas casino type places you have a huge floor plan. So how long is it going to take the smoke to descend all the way down to where the people are at and the answer was a very long time I went to the fire modeling to. Determine what it was but it was in excess of 20 minutes um and so then if we can get everyone out of there by just putting in I think we had doing so like 4 5 6 stairs at the different outside of the building. It gets the owner what they want.

53:37.15 Bryan Hoskins And we're gonna get everyone out of that building safe if there's a fire I have no doubt about that in my mind. Um, why because that building's not a typical building the wide open floor plan made it different and ultimately what's the goal of the fire protection Community. Keep people safe in the event of a fire. So As long as we can keep people safe in the event of a fire then well that's what matters and so that's what we need to be able to show and so and why prohibit the owner from doing something. If. It's going to be safe to do it and so that's the advantage performance base design when the uniqueness of the architecture or materials being used will still lead to the same level of safety as the base code provides. Then it should be our job as practicing engineers in the field of life safety Fire protection. Um, but to make sure that those building owners can do the things that they want to do can use their buildings the way they want to do but doing it in a safe way. And that's what performance spaces design and allows us to do and so I'm not gonna I say I'm not go set a specific dollar figure or a square footage or anything else. But if the prescriptive code does not meet the owner's desires then the performance based design becomes an option.

55:12.44 Bryan Hoskins To be able to allow them to do what it is. They want to do and if they just want to go prescriptive because that's goingnna be a less expensive option. That's their choice. Um, but if or if they have just set in a more building and the prescriptive code works fine then great. Shown that it's safe enough. But for those unique designs for those buildings where they want to do something a little bit different then that's our job to make it so where they can accomplish their goals but do it in a way that's safe.

55:34.36 firecodetech Um, and.

55:48.11 firecodetech I Appreciate that. That's a perspective on performance based design I don't think I've heard before I don't have as much experience with it. But I appreciate that sentiment In. You know how that discretion call and really understanding the factors of what safety level that the prescriptive code provides and matching that calculated or performance-based design methods is very interesting but.

56:25.41 firecodetech Anyways, well I just want to wrap things up and say thank you for talking Brian I could talk to you for another 2 hours probably you've been just a a walt of knowledge on and we didn't even get to speak about your professional society involvement more and. Your thoughts on the industry and where things are going but I want to be mindful of what you got planned today and maybe we can have you on that in the future again to cover some of those topics.

56:51.17 Bryan Hoskins Absolutely be happy to. It's great talking to and again you bring on a professor I get paid to talk for a living so always enjoy talking about the industry of the field and doing everything we can to help promote it continues to that growth.

57:08.57 firecodetech Definitely well I appreciate it. You make it easy on me which I enjoy of course but alrighty we'll we'll wrap it up.

57:12.10 Bryan Hoskins Thank you.

How to start a podcast and lessons learned. This presentation aims to discuss how to start a podcast, and takeaways from three years of podcast production about fire and life safety. A brief outline of the presentation is as follows: • Background journey as an engineer • Lessons learned and advice for those interested • Technology, equipment, and skills needed to start a podcast • Podcast clips that illustrate value • Resources for professionals

Resources Podcast  https://firecodetech.com/45-solocast-fire-and-life-safety-resources

Yeti Mic  https://www.amazon.com/Recording-Streaming-Patterns-HeadphoneAdjustable/dp/B01LY6Z2M6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=27SBQVW1FSKTF&keywords=yeti+microphone&qid =1679153805&sprefix=yeti+microphone%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1- spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMzAzT1MzR1VMNjNGJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEw ODE0NzY2NVhZNFZTOEk1ODVPJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAyMjM2OTIxOEVOTEtJMDVaSEY3JndpZGdld E5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

Shure:  https://www.amazon.com/SM7B-Microphone-Cloud-MicrophonesCloudlifter/dp/B07QV3XVF5/ref=sr_1_3?crid=5J1UYOQJLTIX&keywords=shure+smb7&qid=1679153002 &sprefix=shure+smb7%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-3&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.ac2169a1-b668-44b9-8bd0- 5ec63b24bcb5

Mixer  https://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Mix-Mix8-8-ChannelMixer/dp/B00ND1KGEI/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2S8SOJ808PIP9&keywords=audio%2Bmixer%2Bmix%2B8&qid= 1679153700&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=audio%2Bmixer%2Bmix%2B8%2Cmi%2C107&sr=1- 5&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840&th=1

Webcam  amazon.com/Logitech-C922x-Pro-StreamWebcam/dp/B01LXCDPPK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1YTKVRIV54Y6E&keywords=webcam&qid=1679154971&spr efix=webcam%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-3 

Nice Camera  https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Full-Frame-Mirrorless-Interchangeable-LensILCE7M3/dp/B07B43WPVK/ref=sr_1_4?crid=2OVG4L6ZEWHQC&keywords=sony+camera+a7&qid=1679 155105&sprefix=sony+camera+a7%2Caps%2C108&sr=8-4

Lights  https://www.amazon.com/Equipment-Photography-Continuous-ReflectorsPortraits/dp/B085973RRH/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2J9CYLAUIIYQ6&keywords=podcast+lights&qid=167915578 8&sprefix=podcast+lights%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975- 8bc7-93deae8f9840

More Lights  https://www.amazon.com/Adjustable-Obeamiu-Lighting-CollectionPhotography/dp/B08DFMFQJ6/ref=sr_1_10?crid=3V5M7Y2DZ10X3&keywords=lights+podcast&qid=167 9352239&sprefix=lights+podcas%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-1

In this podcast episode, we hear from retired firefighter Todd LeDuc as he shares important mental health resources for fire service members. Join us as we discuss the dangers of toxic exposure for firefighters and the importance of regular health screenings and preventative measures.

Todd's Book

https://bit.ly/3z9nOsj

Vector Solutions Courses

https://bit.ly/3lCITIF

From earthquakes to wildfires, natural disasters can have a profound impact on the world around us. In this episode, we speak with researcher Sandra Vaiciulyte, who has dedicated her career to understanding these events and their impact on communities. She has also been a key figure in the establishment of SFPE Mexico, an organization aimed at promoting fire safety and education in over 15 countries. Join us in this episode as we learn more about Sandra's work and her efforts to make the world a safer place.

SFPE Mexico: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sfpe-mexico-chapter/