Fire Code Tech

On this episode of Fire Code Tech, our guest Joe Meyer, P.E. shares his origin story, insights from his consulting practice, and thoughts on the fire protection engineering exam. Joe is the creator of MeyerFire, a website chock-full of resources for fire protection professionals. Joe provides FPE exam prep materials, tools for fire protection design and more.

https://www.meyerfire.com/

Tell me how you got started in fire protection and life safety?

Would you speak a little bit more about your roles as a designer and as an engineer?

What are some of your favorite Meyer Fire tools for those who don’t know about them?

Would you speak about your consulting work and what you are doing now? 

What are your thoughts on fire sprinkler design in Revit? I heard you speak about this topic before on the Fire Protection Podcast.

Would you speak about the online FPE exam and how you’ve seen it evolve?

What are some trends you see in the industry?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 27 of fire code tech. On this episode, we have Joe Meyer. You'll have to excuse my excitement a little bit. I've been wanting to have Joe on the podcast since before I even started the podcast been a huge fan of him. Oh, and by the way, for those of you who don't know who he is, I would say he's the largest independent blogger in the fire protection engineering space.

And, uh, really in the fire and life safety space that I'm aware of. Joe is a fire protection engineer with his PE and his master's in fire protection engineering from the university of Maryland. In this episode, we get into his origins in his career. And also we talk about some really fascinating topics like Joe breaks down his tips and tricks and advice for you to pass the engineering exam.

We talk about some of Joe's favorite tools and cut sheets that he's broken down for the fire protection engineering designing process, and how to streamline your design through his informative, uh, data sheets. Anyways, I hope you enjoy the show. It's one of my favorite that I've ever recorded. And also don't forget to subscribe.

So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. So you won't miss out. When we have great guests like Joe and the solo cast that also released twice a month. Well, Joe, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Just wanna say welcome. Yeah, thank you. Happy to be here. I'm big fan. Awesome. Well, I just wanted to get started off with, uh, a little bit about your, your background and I kind of start all these podcasts the same way, but, um, yeah.

Would you tell me a little bit about your background and how you got into fire and life safety? Yeah, I went, uh, I undergraduate was at the university of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas, and, uh, I had a fire protection engineer speaker, come in, uh, talk about what fire dynamics is, what smoke control systems are a little more about sprinkler and alarm.

Then I, I had thought at the time and it sounded interesting. And so the more I explored it, the more I saw the opportunity there. And, and that was, I guess my sophomore year in college. And since then, I've been kind of all in on fire protection. I, uh, studied masters with the university of Maryland and their fire protection engineering program.

And, uh, Early on, got started at a large MEP firm out in Kansas city and then worked for a small MEP firm over, across the state line in, uh, St. Louis, Missouri. And, uh, now I run my own consulting practice. Awesome. So, yeah, that's great. I, uh, always love starting there to, you know, these first couple questions are kind of me getting a sense of your specialty and your background and, you know, kind of your footprint and fire protection, life safety, so that I can, you know, kind of instruct the conversation to a little bit, uh, as it goes on.

But yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your first couple roles in fire and life safety and just kind of, uh, yeah, I mean, broadly what those looked like, what kind of, you know, different projects were you involved in and, and, you know, your role as a, a designer and an engineer? Yeah. Early on I did, um, A lot of commercial work.

So it was mainly on the consulting side, putting together, uh, bid documents with fire alarm, sprinkler systems primarily. And, uh, occasionally would venture into a little bit of smoke control work. Uh, but it was, it was a lot of commercial. So I did a lot of retail office, uh, and got into some, uh, sports arenas stadium work, uh, which was really exciting.

That was a lot of fun to do early on. And, uh, as I, as I grew in SW roles, I, I, I did more on contracting side. So shop drawing design for sprinkler, got into some military work and, uh, kind of seen a variety of, uh, especially a fire alarm in sprinkler and, and here recently done more on the passive fire protection and code consulting.

Type of work, but, uh, I'd say, uh, you know, I'm kind of deep into the suppression side and a little bit lighter on other things. Interesting. Yeah. I, uh, was really interested in asking you about this because, uh, I see, you know, you post a lot about suppression on your, you know, website and blog, and I have a big, uh, passion in that area too, but, uh, it's kind of interesting.

I just thought it was interesting that you were getting into more of the like suppression contracting design. Um, and, uh, so I just wanted to suss out, you know, where that background came from. And, but I find that interesting. Yeah. The suppression side, uh, I've I've gotten asked before, like, Hey, you know, you run a fire protection website, we've got forums on, on everything, fire protection, but, but there's a real strong bias towards suppression.

And I say, yeah, that. That's my bias. , it's not, it's not that I don't like fire alarm. I, uh, you know, I'm not interested in smoke control. I absolutely am. I just, uh, I tend to write, you know, based on my day to day and what, I'm, what, I'm the challenges that I'm seeing, you know, kind of in the weeds on projects.

And for me that tends to be suppression heavy. So that's, uh, there's, there's absolutely a bias there and it's not because I don't like the other disciplines, just, you know, it's just what come, what comes across the desk and, and, uh, you know, where I feel I can, I can contribute. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. It's interesting.

There's so many different nooks and crannies you can get into with fire protection and, you know, uh, I feel like, uh, in school we covered a, like a broad base, but, uh, yeah, I have a huge, uh, interest in the system side of it specifically. I worked as for. Contractor fire suppression contractor outta college mm-hmm

And so I have a little bit more heavy of a background with constructability, uh, in regard to, uh, sprinkler systems than I do with fire alarms. So yeah, that's alright. I have that similar sort of, um, leaning towards the suppression system side of things. That's right. That's right. And the contracting side, you know, is, is night and day different than, uh, you know, what, what we see on the, on the bid set, if you will, performance spec style work, it's, uh, it's a, it's a whole level, different level of detail.

And, uh, you know, at the end of the day, you have to make a decision. You can't, you can't defer anymore. You know, it's, there's not at some point there's nobody else to defer to you are the guy and you gotta make the decision and make the call. And when there's gray areas or when there's difficult installations, you gotta figure out ways to make it work and, and stay within the bounds of code.

So it's, uh, I, I think it's exciting. I, I, I, I find the. Challenging, but, uh, but rewarding too, you know, being able to get all the way into the weeds and make those determinations, man. Yeah. I was gonna say if there's one big difference, it's the, the detail level, you know, it's incredible, you know, there's no delegated design when you're trying to tell somebody who's a foreman, you know how to make it work.

That's right. But, uh, yeah, I definitely know what you're talking about. So I wanted to get into, you know, Myre fire, and, uh, just about, you know, how you started with that all I'm, I'm a huge fan if you can't tell. Uh, and I have been for probably, I don't know, at least, uh, 2018, I was looking back through my emails yesterday and looking for the first signs of Myer fire.

Uh, and I was, you know, bringing up, I think that's, as far as the servers went back and it's like January, 2018 . But, uh, but yeah, I just would love to hear about, you know, how you got started and how you had the like, uh, I guess the knowledge or the, the will to, to learn how to make it happen. Yeah. I I'd say more will than knowledge.

Um, it's uh, I, I took the PE exam. It would've been 2014 and, uh, At the time, you know, the only available resources were, there's only a few and they were either either weren't very good or they were very expensive. Um, or in some cases, both. And I found that the big complaint of everybody that took the exam and I talked to people who had taken it 10 years prior, I said, well, yeah, there's, there's not a lot of resources and it's, it's terrible.

Somebody should do something about it. And I kind of got to the point, you know, after I took it that I was like, well, you know, I, I, I could do something about it. It's a, it's a very, very niche space. I mean, it's only, uh, what at, at most 250, 260 people worldwide take that exam each year. So it's a very small group and that's why a lot of these large publishing houses haven't gone after it.

But, um, you know, for the people taking that PE exam, it's really important. It's an extremely important exam career wise, uh, you know, for those who, who studied engineering. So, um, That first year I put together a, uh, a formula sheet that I had used for the exam and, uh, sold that it was maybe like a dozen copies that first year or something like that.

And, uh, the feedback I got was tremendous. Um, they said, this is, this is really good, but we want practice problems. You know, there's only so many that are out there right now. So I started writing practice problems, bounded together in a book. And then 2016, that was, that was the first time I, I had published a book and, and that was on.

The, it was, it was the prep guide for the fire protection PE exam and, uh, same kind of thing. Sold more, got great feedback, got a whole bunch of, uh, of input saying we need, you know, more content on special hazards and foams and, and, you know, want more practice problems in those areas and tidy up some things and, and, you know, give it another shot.

So I, I, I've published annual additions of that prep guide each year. Uh, you know, and each year tweaking it, adding more, making it a little bit better. And, uh, and that's grown to be, uh, a really big deal, I think last year, uh, let's see, for the 2020 exam, we had something like three quarters of everybody taking the exam, had that book, or at least the latest edition of the book.

So, wow. It's, it's really, you know, it's really turned into something big now, keep, I mean, it's only a small audience when you, when you compare it to mechanical or electrical or something like that, but, um, That's kind of the, the origin of where I got started and, uh, you know, once that, once that PE side, uh, started doing well, that's when I, I, I kind of figured, well, you know, that there's, there's good content out there that people are writing, but, uh, most of it, when you see articles and magazines, uh, or, or, you know, topics and webinars and stuff, there's, there's good content out there, but a lot of it tends to be very high level.

You know, you can read an article and, and engineers, uh, we, we tend to be risk averse. And when you're writing to the public, uh, we, we tend to err on the side of I'm I'm, I'm not gonna say anything controversial so nobody can prove me wrong. And, uh, and, and articles, I think, as a result, tend to be very high level and, and without a lot of takeaways and, uh, I didn't have a very deep, you know, knowledge base.

I'm not an expert in, um, in, in any, any particular application. And I haven't been in the industry, you know, for 35 years, but I do know, you know, some of the day to day challenges that I come across and the things that I'm seeing on projects, and I can speak to those and I can speak to those very specific issues, the, the, the, in the weeds type topics.

And so that's what I started doing. And, you know, when I, that must have been probably 20 17, 20 18, probably around the time that you were following it. But, um, you know, early on nobody read those. It was maybe a, a dozen people that were subscribed to the emails and about half of them had my last name. So it was, uh, it, you know, it wasn't anything special by any stretch, but, um, it just same kind of thing.

It just wrote a little bit more, got some feedback said, Hey, your visuals are good. Do more of those. Hey, these cheat sheets are interesting. Do more of those. And kept coming back with, uh, you know, with just new ideas and, and it's, it's grown into something really big. I mean, now it's, uh, the website does really well.

We've got a forum, more people can post questions anonymously and, uh, there's people way smarter than I am that, that are on there each day, you know, contributing and sharing ideas on good practices for fire protection. And that, to, to me, that's really neat to see cuz that's what the original vision was, is to bring together.

Uh, people much smarter than myself, were passionate about the industry and, and uh, you know, be able to, to contribute to the industry and, and give back in a way that, uh, is really rewarding for everybody. That's awesome. Me and I, uh, I gotta give a shout out to, uh, Nathan Sandman is the fire protection engineer that I, I think first introduced me to your content and he had taken the F P I don't know if it was the year before, um, and passed using your materials and then, uh, So he kind of was influential in helping me pass and introducing to me to your stuff.

So just wanna give it, shout out to saying, man, uh, I don't know if he'll listen to this, but that's awesome. I, I, I find it really funny in the PE space. Like I said, there's, there's only so many people, so, uh, in, in that space and, uh, when I go to conferences and, and hear from people, you know, and say, you know, oh, I'm I'm so and so, and I I'll only catch the first name and then the question's always what, what's your last name?

And then, oh yeah, like I've seen your post on the forum or, you know, I know, I know is sad, but I know people by the, the, the, the two word description, that's their full name and not, you know, uh, put a face to it until I see people at conference and that kind of thing. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's funny when you talked about people that have passed the exam, if, if they're, you know, if they're commenting online, something like that.

Yeah. Chances are, I know the digital digital version of 'em before I meet 'em in person. That's crazy. That's funny that you have that interaction or, you know, like those things that pop across here, you know, when you meet somebody at a conference or something, that'll ping that sense memory of, you know, their, maybe their name coming and be funny.

Have you ever met anybody who has been on the, the leader boards and been like, oh, I'm ridiculous. Name 23 or whatever. well, well, yeah. And, and so, uh, yeah, and the PE um, online, we, I had a weekly exam series and that's, it's morphed into, uh, you know, online question, but in there we have a lot of fun with that.

I, I don't know if, if you were involved in that when you took the exam, I, I might have not have even offered it back then, but. We do like weekly competitions. So, you know, I post top the top scores for each week on these mini PE exams and we have fun with it. You know, people come up with, uh, all kinds of goofy, you know, nicknames and stuff that, that go up there.

But then I, I. Tend to know people, uh, by their nickname and not the real name, you know, because that's where all the comments are. And that's, you know, when I'm running the stats and everything. And so, uh, you know, it's like, I'll, I'll meet. So, and so who, whose username was an FPA, has all my money, you know, it's like, well, I know, I know that guy as an FPA has all my money, you know, and I gotta kind, I gotta kinda scale it back a little bit and recognize that's funny.

That's great. No, yeah. I definitely used the, uh, the series when I was going through it and I wasn't, uh, formally, uh, on the boards, but I definitely did the problems. Uh, every day I was a to problem monster when I was trying to consume every source of, I had like, you know, every, every resource you could buy out there for it, but no, that's awesome.

Yeah, I just wanted to, for those who don't know, I mean, uh, it seems obvious for me, but for those who don't know, uh, would you speak about a little bit more about like some of the tools that you've been producing on MyFi and, you know, maybe who's somebody who's less familiar, you know, what's your kind of top three for tools that you would, uh, suggest for people to go out for, you know, whatever, any role in fire and life safety.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a few things that, that I've got on the website, uh, that, that tend to do really well. One is the, uh, cheat sheets. So, um, you know, code can get pretty complex, uh, pretty quickly as far as the avenues and the directions that it points you between, uh, different sections. So I've got a series of cheat sheets and flow charts.

I think if, if you were looking for anyone tool, the. the cheat sheets that do the best are I've got a comparison between NFP 13, 13, R and 13 D. And that gets searched a lot and, and, and gets a lot of good feedback. And it's more or less a, a high level comparison between all the different repercussions that come outta the different standards.

Uh, the other one that tends to do really well is, uh, canopies. I've got a, uh, cheat sheet on when sprinklers are required for, uh, canopies and, um, and, uh, that, that tends to do pretty well too. The other one is, uh, the, the actual software tools themselves. So, uh, the I've got a toolkit on there and that's, uh, a combination of all these kind of quick hitting software tools.

The one that does really well, that I just finished up recently is the system estimator. And what that does is, uh, it, it, it lays out a, a tree. Configuration sprinkler system. And with just a few clicks or a few inputs, you can change it to a dry system or, or change your density or change, um, your sprinkler K factor, your sprinkler spacing, and in live in real time, it's running hydraulic calculations and giving you an estimate on the pressure and flow that you need for that system.

And it's, you know, when, when you lay out a system, you know, to, to do an estimate or something like that, uh, you've gotta determine your sprinkler, spacing, your K factor, your branch line locations. And every time you make a tweak, you gotta rerun the hydraulic calcs. Well, when you change sprinkler spacing, you know, that could affect your remote area.

And if your remote area changes and it, it kicks over to another branch line where that has big repercussions on, on your calcs. And so the, the tool, the, the big one here just recently is this estimator tool where all those other parameters. Are also live updating with you, um, as you make those changes.

So if you jump to a dry system, now your remote areas, you know, increasing by 30%, or if you change your K factor, you change your sprinkler spacing. You know, the other parameters around that are also updating in real time. So it's, uh, it's a pretty powerful tool and it's, it's good for estimating systems where you can very quickly, you know, uh, uh, see, see the implications of each little design decision.

But I, I I'd say those, you know, of everything we got going on the website, that those seem. To be the big ones, uh, that, that do pretty well. Yeah. I think I wear my coworkers out because every time we have a different design problem, I'll be like, there's a minor fire for that. And then grab a cut sheet or something.

yeah. I think one of my favorite tools is the water supply analysis tool and you know, how that graph works and functions. That was one of the first times I was looking at a Joe Meyer tool and I was like, man, this is nice. This is nicer than the, you know, Excel sheet that my company has and was taking a look at it for the startup of different projects.

So yeah, not only are they good tools, but you can use them as, um, kind of teaching resources. I'll use the duct detector handout for, you know, when I'll have discussions for design professionals or talking to mechanical engineers. So there's all kind of great uses for these different cut sheets. That's awesome.

yeah. When, and, and I, I came to a, a, a realization a couple years ago that it's like, you know, if, if I can create a tool that, uh, you know, that only serves me, you know, that I, that I create for myself, then there's only so much value to it. You know, I, I'm not gonna go and chart every change in, in FPA 13, between each of the additions and where the sections move around for my own use, you know, uh, it just, I, I wouldn't do it because I'd put in, you know, 150 hours for a tool that I might only get, you know, a half hour back.

But what's really neat is when you, when you expand that scale and you're serving a much greater audience, uh, then those 150 hours of research to do, uh, you know, an addition translator where you can punch in any code section from any addition of NFP 13 and get. Get the kickback on where it is now in a different addition.

Well, it's like, well now it's a huge value to the industry. And all I gotta do is run that research down once, you know, put up the tool and post it. And, uh, there's, there's plenty of possibilities there and, and it's really exciting. So it's, you know, having a software package where I can sell some of those features and then having free versions of them too, uh, you know, opens up a lot of doors.

Those cheat sheets come to mind as, as being a good example. You know, it takes a long time to do the research and run down all the flow paths. But, uh, you know, once you get, once you get a good layout on how that is, you know, it, it can make a big impact. And that's the, that's the goal. I mean, at the end of the day is, uh, you know, supporting people doing great work.

That's, that's, that's really why the website's there. I'm a big fan of these resources that help streamline your design process. Yeah, I'm huge fan of these. And I have 'em printed out and posted up on my desk, but another really good resource is Chris Campbell's allowable building area calculator. I'm a big fan of that.

So I, I will use that for, you know, starting up on different projects and kind of looking at some preliminary case, uh, building allowable areas and limitations to speak with the architects who are getting into, you know, programming the space at a early part of the design phase. So yeah. Yep. No, that's a great shout out.

He, he does great work over there. He was a big fan. That's that's the building code.blog. I'm glad to hear they're getting some, uh, some good use for sure. So, Joe, I'd really like to, you know, proceed forward with hearing a little bit about your design work and your consulting now, you know, Have had a lot of time to, you know, read your blogs and look at your code sheets.

And I just have a fascination about the different kind of works you get into, because I could see kind of like how we talked about earlier that the work that you're doing kind of informs the blog content and the, and the other, you know, uh, fire protection, life safety material that you're putting out.

So, yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your consulting practice now. Yeah, so the majority of my work is I, I split about 50, 50, um, half of it being military related work. So that includes fire alarm, mass notification, uh, suppression and life safety. And then the other half of my work, uh, tends to be shop drawing design, particularly for sprinkler contractors.

So, uh, dabble in, you know, kind of both sides of, of the consulting and bidding world. And they're, they're two very different things, but, um, It's nice from a, from a contract document standpoint, it's nice to see both sides of it and appreciate both sides of it because it's, they're different ends of the spectrum that are, you know, pointed at the same goal and same direction, but can be very different applications.

But, uh, I mean, that's, that's, that's my, uh, that's my workload, as far as the life safety and passive fire protection stuff. We've got it into that because of the military work and involvement there. That's not, that's my, not my, uh, native domain, if you will, but, uh, but, but certainly come across it, you know, when, when you're, you've seen it before, too, I don't know.

We've talked about that is when you're a fire protection engineer. Um, anything that's got the word fire in, it means you're the, you're the go-to, you know, it's, uh, it's well, we're having fire flow issues at this middle school are like, As a fire protection engineer, like it doesn't matter if you're only doing the sprinkler system or you're, you know, you're only doing a fire alarm layout or something like that when you're the fire protection engineer and it says fire, you know, they send you to it.

So, uh, you, you kinda in this industry, you kind of have to play, you know, a little bit wider role, even if you're not necessarily deep in any of those, you know, you get a starting point, you research, you talk to the right people and, and get the answers you need to. So that's, that's kind of where I am with the life safety.

I would, I would certainly not by any stretch, say that I'm an expert in that space, but. I work on some of the lighter applications and, and can, uh, contact the right people when, when it gets pretty complex. That's funny. I always joke about if it's a problem and it's got fire in the name, then it's my issue.

Even if it's not, you know, directly tied to the fire protection systems or the life safety scope. So that's pretty funny. I was listening to some of the podcasts that you'd done before. I think this one was with drew locum. And, uh, you were talking about switching over to Revit and kind of how it took you a while to break into it, but then there were some real efficiencies gained after you kind of put in the work to make that transition.

I'd love to hear about, um, you know, designing, uh, fire sprinkler systems and, and Revit and, you know, kind of what that looks like. I have huge fascination in technology and automation and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so. You know, part of being on your own and, uh, doing your own billing and, and your own work.

Um, there's, there's no more, there's no better direct relation between, uh, the profitability on a job and, and you know, what you get paid. You know, if I, if I work twice as slow, well, I get paid essentially half as much for that same amount of time. And, uh, when you're on your own, it's just so abundantly obvious how important productivity and efficiency is.

And I, I don't mean to say, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm trying not to spend any time on jobs, but I want to spend time in the right places on a job. You know, if there's tricky situations or there's complex areas, I want to detail those out and flush those out and spend my time working on the challenging parts of the job, not on the mundane drafting tasks.

And so, uh, productivity and efficiency is something that. From, from my own consulting standpoint, I've put a lot of thought into, and I've, I've worked really hard to develop a workflow that's efficient. I'm not doing things twice. And when I make changes, it's not, I'm not working backwards in my workflow.

I'm always progressing forward and projects are always moving towards, you know, a completion it's so easy and designed to say, oh, I forgot about this. I need to go back. And then you make changes. And then all of your pipe tags need to be updated or your calcs need to be updated, or your seismic bracing needs to shift.

And, and so, so part of that process for me in the workflow was, was thinking big picture. How do you finish a job when you first get handed it to when you turn it over? Um, and Revit for me plays a huge role into that. So 2016, I said no more CA. I'm all in on Revit and it might have been a little premature because I was not, a hundred percent confident in, in, you know, flushing out every detail in Revit, especially when you're doing a shop drawings.

You know, if, if, if you need a specific fire department connection or inspector's test, or, uh, you know, some component that the manufacturer isn't providing, well, you know, I, that that's for me to create, I gotta create that family. And I've gotta, I've gotta model that with real takeouts and, and real dimensions and not just, you know, on the consulting side, you can kind of cheat, use something close and, and call it something else.

Um, so on the shop drawing side, you know, the, the, the level of detail and everything, I've gotta create that. But, uh, you know, once I went, went in on Revit, both feed in, even with CAD backgrounds or heck now, even sometimes they only get PDFs. You know, I, I, I can make a, uh, you know, a, a Revit model out of that, or use the CAD backgrounds in two dimensions.

Throw in some section cuts and now, you know, I'm working out of a 3d model, even though the backgrounds are in 2d. And, uh, yeah, I mean, you mentioned it, it, it was really painful. It probably took a couple years, uh, honestly, of, of constantly figuring out, uh, the pain points and, you know, for a while drawing arm overs, just connecting sprinklers to branch pipe, took hours on each job until I figured out a workflow.

Or like you talked about where you're kind of hinting at is doing some, some of the back end programming or finding, you know, programs like, uh, like hydro CAD for Revit or auto sprinkle RVT that can pound those out. And once, once I started to put those pieces together, about two years in, I was about as fast as I was prior in CAD.

But now, you know, since that point, it's just, it's a night and day difference. I mean, there's, there's, there's no possible way I would go back now because the efficiencies and, and the analytics that are in the model is unbelievable. You know, I got a, a client that calls and says, Hey, um, I know you, you just got done with the permit, said, it's, um, I wanna bulk order pipe for this job and have it sit in the warehouse because pipe's going up.

Can you tell me how much pipe at each diameter at each schedule is in this job? Well, if you're in CAD, I mean, unless you've got something programmed on the back end or have some real savvy tool to pull that off, uh, you know, that that might be an exercise and estimating and getting those pipe counts.

Well, when you're in Revit, the intelligence is already there. So I pull up a schedule and three seconds later, I say, yeah, here's the di diameters of the pipe across the board. Here's the schedules for each, here's your, you know, here's your lengths, here's your finished lengths for all of 'em. And I know immediately if I make a change.

That's all live, uh, smarts in the model. So I make change to schedule 40, uh, you know, in the model. Well, now the calcs are also updating with schedule 40 and the, and the, uh, fabulous is also updated schedule 40. So it's, it's a bear, you know, to get in and get used to. But, you know, once I was all in that's when you really start to break through with, uh, with some of the efficiency gains.

And I, I think, um, you know, within the last few years, within the last, you know, five years, maybe a little bit longer than that, uh, there's just been, uh, an incredible amount of opportunity and improving productivity, improving efficiency in programs like Revit, uh, Other industries have created add-ins or we're now getting the add-ins and, and, you know, there's, I, I, I feel, I I've talked to a few people about it.

I was like, if, if we're designing systems the same way we are now, uh, that we were seven or eight years ago, totally missing the boat because there's, there's so much opportunity out there with, with different software packages to speed up that workflow. And now drafting, you know, drafting isn't the burden it's, you know, now I can spend time talking to clients or working through those, those, those challenging details on a project and, and not necessarily, you know, drawing arm overs and pipe tags.

Yeah. I think that the industry is kind of catching up to, you know, having this ability to be more geared for designing in Revit. So it's interesting for me to hear about that kind of trend for you gaining some efficiencies and leaning towards Revit, even though there was some. Uh, initial startup energy and kind of investment on the front end.

But yeah, I really like hearing about that. Yeah, it's it's it is, you know, and I, I think, uh, on the consulting side, you know, we went through that change between what, 2005 and maybe 2012, uh, company by company start to get to the point where like, okay, half our projects are on Revit or three quarters of our projects on Revit, anything that's new construction or anything that's big, you know, tends to go Revit.

Um, and so the, you know, the consulting world is already migrated over and feels at least comfortable in that space. Uh, contracting world doesn't really have that pressure unless it's mandated in the specs where it's a, you know, military job that requires it or government job that requires it. You know, they don't have that impedes that we do on the consulting side.

Also, you know, the players tend to be different. Uh, if you're only in the contracting side and you've been stock listing and designing in CAD forever, well, there's, there's really no reason to change considering that you're gonna be less efficient for a period of time. Just to get, you know, it might be a couple years before you get to the point where you're at the same level of efficiency.

So, um, it, I, I, I feel like, especially for smaller contractors, it's a really difficult thing to overcome. What I am seeing, uh, frequently is for larger contractors or larger design groups within a, a, a contracting environment that they'll dabble in Revit, and they'll get a, a person or two that becomes an expert in that and works on those complex or new construction jobs and starts to collaborate and clash in real time.

And they're the ones that are kind of the seeds that are, that are growing that possibility. Um, when I was to, when I was in a seminar, it was like 20 16, 20 17 at Revit. You know, it was a room full of contractors must have been 30 different companies there. And they asked like, who's, who's in Revit right now, you know?

And it was a hundred percent in rev right now. We're the only ones that raised our hand and, um, Who wants to be in Revit. And it was like three quarters of the room raise their hand. I mean, I, it's just, I, I, I think the, uh, the interest is there and the momentum is there. It's just gonna take some time for that development, the templates, and everybody to be comfortable with Revit.

And honestly, for the contractors to see, you know, a return on their investment in that, uh, you, you, you gotta struggle through for a little while. So you get used to it. You're thinking in terms of Revit and not thinking in terms of CAD, you know, it's like learning a new language. It's, it's, it's a different perspective.

And if you you're trying to take one and translate it directly to the other, it doesn't work very well. It's, it's a totally different way of thinking. So we'll get there. And I think you're right. I think we're on kind of a cusp of transitioning over, um, you know, to, to those Revit kind of environments, but 15 years from now, you know, I, the cattle will still be around it'll, they'll still be a place for it.

Um, but you know, it, it, it. Tend to see it more and more with people that go from consulting to contracting or people that just come outta school and only know Revit, you know, that's, that's, that's where, where we're seeing that change. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the fire protection engineering exam and what you think about what's happened with online and the switch to online.

I know there's been a lot of change that's happened. Um, and I think that there's not too many people as well, qualified to, to speak about this topic as you. So yeah. I'd love to get your take on, uh, what we're seeing as changes and, um, some of the trends so far with the people who have taken the exam.

Yeah. Uh, well, as of. October, 2020, and then there's a follow up exam January. It was 20, 21 last month. It's all now computer based. And so the exam format has gone from 80 questions to 85 and it's all online. It's run through computer testing centers. I think the Pearson view testing environment, that's no longer open book.

Uh, so, you know, we used to have, I mean, at least in my case, I had like this giant biggest piece of luggage I could find that was full of handbooks, you know, lugging it into the exam environment. So that's gone. It's only the, uh, a reference N CES guide and then code snippets, uh, from standards is the only thing that's in the exam.

And then the, the formula has changed too. The, the, the question styles are different. It's still multiple choice for, uh, some of the questions, but there's fill in the blank. There's, uh, there. Visual, um, questions and then there's ordering and, and a handful of different, uh, uh, question formats that they've introduced.

So by and large, it's, it's a very different exam than it was just a few years ago. Uh, the first year the results were seeing on tremendous pass rates went from, you know, about 55 to 60% pass rates. That's been consistent, you know, through most of the last decade, uh, to this last exam. For some reason, we had a, like a 87% overall pass rate.

So it jumped way up. And I don't know, uh, I don't know what the cause of that is. I know there was less people that took the exam this year because it was the first year and they kind of felt like GU pigs, but, um, yeah, uh, big changes on that front. And so, you know, I live in the PE prep space, so we're always getting user feedback on.

How to improve and what we need to change, how we need to adapt. And I think everybody across the board, the different organizations that are involved in PE prep, we all kind of, uh, took every word that came out of N CES and, and the exam development committee. And, uh, tried, tried our best to kind of point everybody in the right direction.

But now that we've got that first year of computer exams under, uh, out of the way, you know, there's a lot of feedback and I think everybody's kind of adjusting to it. So, uh, you know, if you're somebody that's out there, that's interested in taking the PE exam, take it. There's, uh, there's no reason not to.

There's a lot of studying and a lot of time that goes into preparing for the exam. Uh, but it's, it's a big deal and it's a, it's a really big marker on your career when you pass. So, um, I would, I would not discourage anybody from taking it just because of the exam changes in the long run. I think it'll be a very good thing because it's starting to focus.

Knowledge more than look up ability or our understanding of where content is located across, you know, it was like 9,600 pages of content. Um, so I think, I think that's a good thing. I, I, I ju I just also think that it's, there's, there's an adjustment period on what we've known to be true for the PE exam for the last, you know, decade plus and what the, what the exam is today.

And those are just two different things. Yeah. I can't help, but be a little bit curmudgeony about me having to carry around a huge toe of books with the, you know, strap to a Dolly in a crate. Um, but yeah, it's kind of interesting that the, um, the changing questions, you know, from the paper exam, it's, it's remarkable.

And I think they're still kind of adapting to the way that it's all functioning. So it'll be interesting how the next couple sessions pan out, uh, Agreed like, and there, there is no that's right. There is no glory for, you know, the people that write those questions or the exam, uh, committee. I think it's all volunteer work and, and they try really hard to do, to do a good job, but it's a, it's a really tough task because you know, our, our audience size is only so big.

There's only so many volunteers and, uh, it's a wide variety of exam content. So, um, you know, kudos to them for the exam committee and everything and who those people are, you know, they can't, they can't, they could tell you they do it, but that's all they could tell you. I mean, the, the, the exam preparation space and then the actual exam review committee, or, or two different groups, and they're not allowed to talk to each other.

So, uh, you know, they try hard, but it also, uh, you know, it can be a tough exam. It's got a wide variety of content. And might fully. So, I mean, we, we do want our engineers to be, you know, at least what we consider the minimally competent, uh, engineer to be, you know, pretty thorough in their knowledge and understanding of the exam.

But I, I, yeah, I I'm big changes, uh, but I do think it's, it's going in the right direction. They're starting to get to a point where it's testing, uh, testing better aptitude. I, when I, when I took the exam, I didn't take it in my home state. So, uh, I, I, like I said, I got my wife's largest. Suitcase. And I packed it full of handbooks and, and anything that I thought could possibly be helpful.

And I got to the airport and it was like 85 pounds. And, uh, they, they , they told me I had to distribute the weight. Otherwise I couldn't bring it onto the plane. So, uh, did some mad scrambling and, uh, you know, my handbooks were, were in the middle of a bunch of sweaters, uh, by the time that they got where they needed to go.

So it's very different environment today. Yeah, it's, it's crazy because, you know, when I took my PE exam, I had to put a, a trash bag over that little. You know, um, rig that I had going with the crates bungee corded to the Dolly on the, you know, with the books all inside of him about, you know, a half a dozen to probably closer to a dozen books.

And so it was just pouring rain when I got there and I had to put money into the parking meter. And so it was just a, it was just a crazy thing to deal with while I was also so stressed. And for whatever reason, you know, the time in our lives, when we were taking the PE exam, I mean, I was never on a tighter budget than those years when I was right around taking the PE exam and, you know, saving money on budget flights and, and, uh, you know, budget hotels.

And, you know, you mentioned the bungee cord and the, I mean, I, I couldn't tell you the ways that the people I had asked about figuring the best way to cart all this material in, you know, just, just to save a buck and, and try and get it through. So it's a. It's a unique experience for sure. Joe, what would you recommend as a tip or a resource for someone who is looking to take the fire protection engineering exam in, uh, in, you know, this new, online era?

Yeah. Um, I get into that a little bit in the book. I would say, you know, a lot of the advice that you get is, uh, from people that taking the exam, you know, it's, it's changed a lot since the online, uh, you know, a lot of the old device would be to be familiar with materials above all else so that you can find answers.

So that's really not what the exam is testing anymore. Um, but I do have, you know, I, there, there there's a few things. So when people ask that question, I, I try and steer 'em too. And I. The biggest one is, is finding prep materials. Uh, it's not, it's, it's not usually in either, or should I buy this or this, or, um, you know, should I study this and not this it's usually an, and it's, it's get as much material as you can, you know, if your company's paying for prep material, good.

Use it. Um, get, just get your hands on anything that you can, because the more practice, the better, I find that the people that kind of exhaust their options with practice problems and, uh, and prep content, you know, that they've got more to study, they've got more practice and they get a, a more well-rounded experience.

So, uh, I would, you know, whether it's competitors or not, I I'd, I'd encourage anybody to, to get as get their hands on as much as they can so that they're getting enough practice. Um, the other thing I think people struggle with is. Time, you know, I always could ask how much do I actually need to study? And that varies person to person, but it's, it's a big, you know, time investment.

And, uh, I always say try to be fair to yourself when you're planning out that time and setting aside that time, uh, to study because it's, it's not a good exam to cram three weeks before and, you know, try and get a hundred hours or 200 hours of studying and right at the end, it, it, it really just, it doesn't sink in and, and people don't tend to do well.

Uh, so you kind of have to plan to study, you know, plan to plan it's it's, uh, setting aside that time. I think, I think is really helpful. And then, um, you know, there's, there's free tools too. We set up a Facebook group for the fire protection PE exam a few years back. That's done really well. There's a lot of really great questions in there that people have had answered by other people who have taken the exam and, you know, fire protection.

We're, we're a. We're a small passionate group. And so there's a lot of people in there that, uh, help each other out in real way. So, uh, you know, and that's free and there's other free opportunities too. Some people post free questions. I know we do a series of free daily questions during, uh, exam season.

And I, I, I just, like I said, get, get your hands on as much as you can get, get the free material and, and, uh, you know, pound the books. That's, that's usually the, uh, the. Yeah, I think that's all great advice, Joe. My, you know, just to add on to that sentiment, um, I think that doing problems, as many as you can is the number one way that you can prepare yourself for the fire protection engineering exam.

Um, furthermore, on that note, you know, uh, getting your resources, being familiar with the types of problem, getting some prep material, I think is, is pretty crucial even with the higher passing rates. I think that they're gonna probably course correct a little bit on, you know, uh, how the, the pass rates are.

So get as many problems in as you can and really, uh, hit, hit it hard. I think that was what really made me feel the most comfortable on the day of the exam. So yeah. Yeah. I really like that. That's, that's what we're people that, you know, are walking outta the exam. That's generally what they're saying is the ones that feel the most comfortable tend to be the people that have done, you know, the most practice and.

Feel comfortable themselves in, in those kind of a wide variety of, of testing environments. Yeah, I think I exhausted, you know, like all the questions and in your guide and, you know, uh, was also doing the daily questions and just really crunching the numbers on anything I could find. And so there's such a wide variety of difficulties between, you know, the questions.

Some would be really long and, and super hard and others would be brief and sort of, uh, easier. And so I think that the, you know, the medium, at least for when I took the exam was somewhere in the middle. So it's really kind of interesting to, you know, do a bunch of problems and, and, uh, wide variety of difficulties because, you know, you don't really know what you're gonna get.

Yeah. Yep. And there's, there's no, no, um, end to the appetite for questions. I mean, we've. Since I got started, uh, we've, we've written over, it's probably 600 prep questions now. And, uh, you know, there's probably, we still, we still have about 400 that are relevant to the current exam, the old, the old ones cycle out and are, you know, there's a handful that are relevant anymore, but that's what we get asked every year is, you know, or is there gonna be more, can we add to it is the new addition coming out with, you know, new questions, additional questions and, and we're, we're trying all the time to keep, keep, uh, you know, filling that need and, and serving that market for sure.

Yeah. I love to speak with, you know, professionals and kind of get their, um, tips and tricks or their views on what's going on in the industry. So. Um, we're coming towards the tail end of the interview. And I just wanted to talk about, you know, what you see as trends in the industry. I know we've talked about, you know, technology a little bit.

Um, I've had some recent experience with like Ben 360 and kind of taken a look at some, uh, different tools at the company I'm working now for. So yeah, I really have enjoyed any way that you can find as a professional to try to get ahead and stay competitive and really try to go the distance and, you know, be on the cutting edge.

So would love to get your take on what you see as a trend in the industry and, you know yeah. Any, uh, tips and, uh, kind of professional advice. Yeah. I think, you know, we, we hit on one of 'em, which is, uh, productivity. I mean, if. I said, if, if you're designing the same way you were five, five or more years ago, uh, you know, that there's some real opportunities out there.

Um, it's whether it's on the, uh, hydraulic kelp front or drafting front rabbit modeling, um, but then also, you know, lightweight tools, you know, my whole emphasis with, with the website is kind of filling in your, your lightweight toolkit. You know, your tool belt basically is, um, what, what are the things you're thinking about regularly as a fire protection engineer daily?

What are, what are those calculations or what are those decisions that we're making. uh, that we can do better or we can do more efficiently. And so that's, that's more or less kind of the spectrum where, where I live, I'm hitting quick tools that give you instant feedback and help you be more productive.

But across the board, there's just so much opportunity free. Add-ins for Revit paid add-ins for Revit. There's been a tremendous amount of R and D on, on Revit for, uh, the fire protection world. I mean, there's, uh, you mentioned, you know, BIM 360 is not fire protection specific, but that's been, that's been a gain in, in real time modeling, uh, autos springing, RVT, hydro CAD for Revit, uh, Vikings, come out with some tools.

LICs got tools there's across the board. I mean, I, I see. Huge opportunities in better productivity than we had, like I said, just five years ago. So I don't know that I, I would say that's a trend overall. Like I'm getting feedback from other people about that, but I'm seeing that as a major opportunity, uh, in the industry, um, there's, there's always the, uh, the challenges that are changing.

Uh, so I mean, as far as trends go, the, the buzzwords, the hot topics are just storage seems to always be changing. You know, we've got, I, I, I come into warehouses regularly where there's these old pipe schedule systems or they were designed for, you know, a carton class, three commodity, and now they're storing plastics.

There's, there's so much plastics in our world now. And so when we get into storage, um, that's just a very different landscape on what we're designing now versus what we were designing in the 1960s, 1970s. Electric cars, battery storage, uh, you know, even marijuana growth facilities. And, uh, it's, those are, those are challenges that I think we're seeing today that weren't necessarily the case, you know, a generation ago.

So plastics may be a generation ago, but you know, for the others, we've got new technology and new challenges there. So those are, those are the, the trends. I can't speak to any of those. I'm not expert in any of those spaces, but, um, I, I, I do see a lot of questions and a lot of content kinda get shuffled around in how we're addressing those new challenges before the committees, you know, are able to kind of completely flush out.

And then one interesting one, um, Just recently, you know, prepping for the show and thinking about it is, uh, I don't know, you know, I, I always hear that when the economy is good, that people are more willing to start their own companies and go out on their own. And you know, when the tide rolls back out that you can see who is skinny dip in more or less.

Um, but when the economy has been good and, and sustained with, with a lot of work, I have seen myself included a good handful of fire protection engineers and designers that go out and start their own practice. And, um, some of 'em are like me that are intending to stay small and aren't necessarily looking to grow a company.

Uh, but then there's plenty of others that are more of a traditional company, growth model mindset. And, uh, it's really interesting, uh, being. You know, like I said, fire protection is a small community, knowing a handful of people that have gone out on their own and have done really well, you know, started just, just within the last two or three years.

So I don't know that it would necessarily qualify as a trend, you know, based on your question. But I do know that, you know, with the virus, people working from home, uh, the, the, the community, the, uh, the clientele being accepting of working from home and remote work, um, that, you know, I, I, I see the, the flex worker or the independent, I wouldn't say freelance, but the independent, uh, practitioner being more and more common and more and more accepted today.

And, uh, you know, the reality is if, if, if you've got clients that are getting better service and more respons. Um, interactions with the people that they're hiring. That that can be a really good thing, a good thing for everybody. So I it's, it's amazing. It, it seems like every month, you know, I, I hear about somebody else going out on their own and we get connected and, you know, kind of got this underground, uh, network, if you will, to support each other, you know, and for those groups and, and help, uh, you know, spread around work and that kind of thing.

It's, it's. It's been an interesting trend for sure. Yeah. I think that collaboration is so awesome. And I love hearing about that because, you know, I, uh, I take a look at the other podcasts and in the space and fire life safety, and I'm just super excited about, you know, the chance to collaborate and that the space is growing and that, you know, it's starting to build a real industry here in this content and production space.

So I really enjoy what you said about, you know, entrepreneurs banding together and, and small practitioners. I, I love that term. And so, yeah, it's cool to hear about how people are, you know, banding together. Fire protection has always been a pretty tight niche. Right, right. Um, group. So it's, yeah, definitely resonate with that sentiment that people are willing to Linda helping hand it and band together.

And you know, when you're out on your own kind of. yeah. Before I made the jump, you know, myself, I, I, I, I guess I wouldn't have guessed that, uh, you know, that those people are connected and, and they exist and talk to each other and, and support each other. And, uh, the reality is just the opposite. I mean, it's, it's, it's really pretty neat to see, you know, we all want each other to do well.

And, and, uh, it's, you know, it's, it's different when you don't look at somebody as a competitor, but you look at them as an ally and another advocate for fire protection and, uh, you know, doing good work in, in the engineering industry. So, um, we, we, we do our best to help each other out. And, and, uh, if I know, you know, a context licensed in certain states and, and, you know, when I, when I get leads and can help direct it that way.

And, and so for, uh, yeah, for the small practitioners, it's, it's, that's been a, really, a really good thing. Um, but you know, to, to, to a little bit more your point, I mean, Just five years ago, what do we have any podcasts in fire protection? I mean, maybe an FPA was putting out, you know, things here and there, but we've got, we've got plenty of, uh, of good startups in that space.

And, and I think to your point, like 10 years ago, we didn't even have podcasts. So, or maybe we did. I mean, maybe it was 15 or 20, you know, but, um, but between the, the podcast popping up and, and blogs, I mean, I, I, I don't think engineering blogs was really a thing a decade ago and, uh, you know, we, we see stuff, uh, you know, NFPA puts out good stuff.

NFSA um, you know, you mentioned Chris Campbell over there building code that blog he's, he's got, he's got things going. And so, you know, there's, there's plenty of opportunity there and, and for people that are willing to kind of step out and, and discuss challenges in the open, uh, you know, there's, there's plenty of opportunity for that.

And I, I don't think that's something that's gonna go away. It's it's gonna just gonna continue to be, uh, more of a positive for the industry. Yeah. You know, I'm just really excited about the, the podcast space and, you know, the content development space, because, you know, um, if you think about it, you know, everybody is kind of doing their own thing and not really in competitive spaces, it's all kind of, uh, echoing and amplifying each other to some extent.

And if you're putting out good to good content, I've found that there is a, um, really a huge need for that. And that if your stuff really is good, then you shouldn't worry about, you know, um, having to be competitive because, um, there's always people who are looking for good content and I listen to podcasts all the time.

And if something is really good and I like it, I'll listen to, you know, five or 10 different podcasts that I'm really interested in. So I think it's great. Yeah, that's right. That's right. There's there's room for everybody. And, and yeah, there's, there's a, there's a unique angle from each one. You know, that's a, that's a good thing.

Well, Joe, I can't tell you how much, uh, it means to me to get to talk to you and, and do this pod. Uh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's been awesome. You got it. Anytime. GU, happy to be here. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This week’s episode focuses on codes involving high-piled storage. With such a broad topic, we are using this episode to break down what the international building and fire codes say about storing combustibles. We also explore common fire and life safety components when high-piled combustibles are present. If you are interested in more content on this topic, check out patreon.com/firecodetech.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about like specific technologies, installation standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview.

Welcome to episode five of the solo cast fire code. In this episode, we're gonna be talking about high pod storage. And so the first excerpt of code or standard I wanna take a look at is the international fire code more specifically, chapter 30, two of the 2015 version of the international fire code. So in chapter 32, I wanna look at section 32 0 1 0.1 scope.

High pile combustible storage shall be in accordance with this chapter. In addition to the requirements of this chapter, the following material specific requirements apply aerosols in accordance with chapter 51 flammable in combustible materials shall be in accordance with chapter 57 hazardous materials in accordance with chapter 50 record storage in accordance with NFPA 13.

storage of combustible fibers in accordance with chapter 37 of the international fire code in general, storage of combustible material shall be in accordance with chapter three. So why do I wanna talk about high powered storage? High powered storage is something that is, um, usually misunderstood. Uh, it's often to.

Um, not utilized correctly in existing facilities or in new facilities. I had a job one time where the owner was like, oh, I don't know, uh, if we have HPO combustible storage. Um, and so they were like, you know, we wanna stack, um, miscellaneous combustibles and, you know, tires and some other hazardous materials and up to 20 plus feet.

And so, uh, for those who know anything about, or for those who are aware of the thresholds for high pod storage, this is immediately alarming because, um, we'll get into the specifics about it, but that's well over the code required threshold for the provisions of high pod storage. So what does the fire code delineate these extra chapters, um, as compared to chapter 3, 2 32 for high cloud storage.

So if there are hazardous materials or high hazard materials, there are other sections of the fire code in the building code that you need to look into. And these are above and beyond the requirements of high pilot storage. But if you have more standard commodities, Of classes one through four or plastics of category a through C, then you are more likely to be in a case where you will deal with the traditional hypo pod storage.

So I won't talk about hazardous materials in this episode, because as I've already mentioned, I think I'm gonna do a series of episodes over hazardous materials, but in order to explore high powered storage, um, in more. Let's start at the beginning in chapter two of the international fire code, which has definitions, which will illustrate when you need to deal with the requirements and the extra associated.

Life and fire safety, um, implications of high piled storage. So in chapter two, there's a definition for high piled storage or high pile combustible storage. And it says storage of combustible materials in closely packed piles or combustible materials on pallets. In racks or on shelves, where on top of storage is greater than 12 feet in height we're required by the fire code official high peed combustible storage also includes certain high hazard commodities, such as rubber tires, group, a plastics, flammable liquids, idle, pallets, and similar commod.

Where the top of storage is greater than six feet. So let's talk about that a little bit. So the code excerpt says standard combustibles, 12 feet, where the top of the storage is greater than 12 feet. So this is not where the greatest, the height of the greatest shelf is it, you know, has to be over 12 feet.

No, the combustibles stacked on the shelving exceeds 12 feet. And so. Um, once again, remember that we're dealing with how you approach high piled storage in the United States and in, you know, go back and check out the codes and standards episode. If you're unclear on how to determine the applicable codes and standards for your.

And then, uh, furthermore, on that subject, high hazard materials, think of these as hazardous materials, tires, um, more dense storage than usual. And so these have a threshold of six feet. So if you're stacking tires, it's not apples to apples, to, um, general engine parts or something. That's fairly non combustible.

Um, or even that's most plastics for that matter matter or a lot of plastics for that matter. So I wanted to talk a little bit about storage configuration. So there's probably, uh, a really huge number of different ways that you can store commodities. Um, off the top of my head there's bin box palletized, um, solid pile.

Uh, racks and double row racks back to back to back racks, multiple row racks, uh, rollback racks, and so, and, uh, variations of all these in combination. So that plays a big part into protection of. Commodity. So what do these look like? Bin box is, uh, metal boxes with, um, basically metal on five sides. Uh, you know, everything, but the top side, um, shelves is self explanatory rack storages.

What you would think of in your, um, big box stores like Lowe's and Sams and Costco. and so, um, there's different protection requirements for each of these storage configurations. And where you would go to look at specific criteria for protecting these storage. Configurations is in N FPA 13. So to dive a little bit more into the requirements of the international fire code table 32 0 6 0.2 general fire protection and life safety requirements.

This table is in more, um, detailed approach to what specific features are required. Your hypo storage based on the commodity type and the, um, size of the hypo storage. So there are requirements in this section for detection, smoke and heat, and, uh, building access that's access for the fire service around the entire expense of the building.

And um, uh, automatic fire extinguishing system. So that's a little broader than I thought I would be. Um, it's basically referring to sprinklers, but it appears they leave it open ended in case you have an alternative means of fire suppression. And so there are basically requirements in this document for.

Size is ranging from 500 square feet to 500,000 square feet or greater. And so also this ties back into a cubic foot amount of high pod storage. Let's talk about why that we have these extra implications for fire and life safety for high pile storage. Well, the obvious answer is, is that there is more combustibles which can lead to fires that can have a more significant impact for fire and life safety, much quicker.

Statistics data from NFPA study says that from 2014 to 2018 and estimated 1400 warehouse structure fires per year were reported to the us fire departments. These fires caused an annual average of two civilian deaths, 20 civilian injuries and 159 million indirect property damage. So probably one of the biggest implications of high powered storage.

The increased, uh, demand in the fire suppression system. So this often, uh, if you get into instances with significant high pile storage, I'm talking about in excess of 2025, um, I've seen instances in design for cases up to about 40 feet, which is pretty significant. We talked with Francis. In episode 23, I think she was talking about how she has been over facilities that had storage in excess of a hundred feet.

So I think that's, uh, pretty, I can't even imagine what that looks like, but yeah, so. As the height goes up, the fire suppression demand, um, in correlation goes up. So you have to start looking at storage specific sprinklers. And I wanna do a video breaking down NFPA 13 and what it has to say on high Powell storage.

This episode, I'm focusing a little bit more on the codes and standards of the basis. Um, so a big part of storage. And, you know, kind of tackling it or understanding the challenge from a design perspective is commodity classification. This is a pretty big topic. And so a high level overview is, um, take a view of the building and the, you know, what kind of functions are happening in the building.

And then establish the commodity types. So there's class one through four commodities class, a B, and C plastics. Um, and then you have to take a look at the configuration. Like we talked before, solid pile, um, rack storage bin box. Uh, I didn't touch on, but it came to my mind and, uh, in editing was. Um, the mobile storage configurations or high density, um, mobile storage configurations.

So, um, automated storage is becoming a much bigger topic. So this also plays into a part of, uh, kind of establishing the hazard and establishing the protection criteria. That's gonna be it for this first episode on codes surrounding high pallet storage. There is still a lot that I didn't get to cover here and more that I want to dive into.

As far as the codes, um, implications for design involving high pallet storage, uh, storage, sprinklers, uh, NFPA 13, and what it has to say. High piled storage areas and, um, protection measures. So stay tuned and I will be sure to release more content on high piled storage. If there's something that you're interested in.

Also, if you'd like there's another bonus episode on high piled storage on Patreon, go check it out at petri.com/fire code. Hot throw a link down in the show notes. Thanks for listening, everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes end standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

Welcome to episode 26 of Fire Code Tech. In this episode, we speak about fire modeling, performance-based design, and codes and standards in Poland. Our guest, Wojciech, is an Associate Professor and a Deputy Head of Fire Research Department at the Building Research Institute in Warsaw, Poland. We discuss Wojciech’s research specialties including visibility in smoke, smart smoke control systems and wind and fire coupled modeling.

How did you get started in fire science?

Would you speak more about your career and the different roles you have had at ITB?

Can you speak more about your commercial experience and how the research and commercial design interface?

Would you speak about your paper you wrote about the codes and standards process in different countries?

 What are your thoughts about performance-based design and how we can assure competency and consistency in modeling parameters?

Are there some projects you are working on now burning different configurations in the lab?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 26 of fire code tech. In this episode, we have EK Roski. In this episode, we talked to EK about computational fluid dynamics codes and standards in Poland, as well as some of the unique applications of smoke control and how that it's way more common in Poland than it is in the United States.

If you're interested in fire science, this episode is for you. I really enjoyed talking to JE we've been connected for a while and trying to make this interview happen. And I'm super excited that I finally get to share it with the world. Wack has a litany of awards over the last five years and has been involved in over 25 peer reviewed papers.

What's fascinating is to me that on top of all these awards in this research that wo Jack's been involved with is he's coupled the commercial industry and how to actually, uh, design these systems and provide computational fluid dynamics to do the engineering study behind smoke control systems. I hope you enjoy this show with WOIC.

Don't forget to follow us on social media and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Well, WOIC I just wanna thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you very much, girls. And we we've talked about this for a long time and I'm very happy that we, we finally can, can catch up and, and talk here.

Yeah, we made it. It's it's been, uh, I've been excited about this and excited to talk to you. So that's awesome. So thank you. I wanted to get, yeah. So I wanted to get started with, um, a little bit of background on how you got into fire science and you know, how this field started to interest you and kind of how you got in it.

Would you? Yeah, so like, like most of people probably, um, it was a little kind of accidental or, or I, when, when I was faced, uh, facing a choice of the school to go after my, my high school, uh, I picked, uh, some universities and the main school of fire service was one of them, uh, because I had some family connections with fire service and it seemed like a reasonable career.

And yeah, that, that was the one that I got into. And, uh, Once I got there, I, I really liked it. And, uh, few years later, I've, um, I found the, um, computational fluid modeling and, and, uh, modeling fires, which was absolutely fantastic. And, and something that, that really popped in my head and, and I absolutely loved, and I was thrilled to be able to actually represent fires in a computer.

So after finishing my, my university with a master's degree, I found this Institute in Universo that was very, very well known in, in Poland as one of the lead, um, companies that that does modeling. And in general, does. Fire science at the grade level. Uh, I've applied. I've been accepted and yeah, a decade later here, I am still in the same place and still, uh, thoroughly enjoying what I'm doing here, modeling fires and everything around that.

That's interesting to hear. Yeah. I have a similar story of stumbling in, uh, as I think a lot of people do in our industry stumbling into the field, but yeah, that's great. I, I would love to hear, yeah, you hear these stories all the time about people, uh, coming into industry by, by accident or, or just, uh, by random chance or switching from structural mechanical electrical engineers at, at some final years of the universities, which, which kind of is a pity because it's a such an amazing field of, of, of science and, and field of engineering that you can do.

And, uh, I highly doubts any other field of civil engineering that gives you such. Immense overview over the whole building process from conception to, to basically the end of the building. And you have to be familiar with almost every branch. There is of engineering because the decisions taken by these people are affecting fire.

And that's absolutely fascinating. And it's, it's difficult to get this message to young engineers that such a field of, of work exists. And it's fantastic to be a part of it. Yeah. I completely agree with you. It, it is such a great industry and yeah, it's interesting that point you just made of how wide the scope of, you know, fire safety and, and, um, engineer.

To, you know, make a more safe, uh, you know, built environment or just environment in general, if you want to go broader than the design and the built environment. But yeah, it's such a promising field. I always am just kind of blown away. How much of, uh, well kept secret it is and you know, how, how much, uh, the greater society kind of just, uh, is easy to, you know, not be aware of it your whole life.

If you don't know somebody who's in the. Right. Exactly. Ho hopefully it'll change eventually more and more universities are, are having this, um, fire engineering, at least as a course, uh, during masters or, or bachelors and, uh, more and more people are educated towards this. So yeah, it looks promising. I hope.

Yeah, I think so. I think that it's just in the such the incipient phase of, you know, Profession, uh, it's it's lifespan. I think it's just still an infancy. And so we are just lucky to be in, on, on the ground floor of a trade that has such promise, but yeah, it's pretty remarkable. I don't, I don't know how I got so lucky.

Uh, a lot of times I think that, uh, I stumbled into something so promising, but, uh, I wanted to get started with, uh, a little bit or, you know, just, I wanted to touch on a little bit more, the different roles you've held at, uh, sorry. You told me the building research Institute. Apologize. Yeah, I DB. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I've joined us as, um, Modeler basically.

So I've joined the team of Mr. STBA. He was my, my supervisor and, and we've, uh, we've been doing some advanced CFD modeling of, of buildings of all kinds. And, uh, yeah, I basically was the person who was doing the models and, and running the calculations, making the reports. So let's say basic engineer work, um, after gathering some experience in, in small control, I've been more and more involved in, in consulting projects and helping designers design more, more advanced, uh, systems, better systems, uh, because in Poland, uh, the smoke control design is completely performance based.

So, so there's a, let's say a big market for. For such a consultancy. Yeah. So that was my, my few years. And after a few years, um, I figured out that I enjoyed this a lot and I started questioning some basic things that, that are obvious in the discipline. Like why those access symmetric, plume relations give such a large number of, of smoke flow volume or, or, or are we calculating the smoke temperatures correctly?

And, and I was absolutely curious about how you can calculate these things. I I've stumbled them upon many papers. Um, and I, I think the most influential was the, the, um, PhD of Roger Harrison and, and papers, but by Harrison and Spearpoint on, on a spiel plum design based on scale modeling, I, I was absolutely fascinated with that work.

And I thought to myself that, yeah, this is, um, If I'm involved in designing buildings, I would really love to like go further and research. Why are we designing like this? Not, not just follow blindly, the, the obligations set in, in, in the standards. So, so that's why in, in 2013, I have decided to pursue my PhD in five sec engineering.

And luckily to me was possible to, um, to do the PhD at my own at my own Institute, because ITB is, uh, is able to, to award PhDs. So yeah, if I've, uh, started my research on, on flows underneath, uh, projecting balconies and the influence of. Architecture of the building on, on the smoke clothes inside. And, uh, it was a fascinating journey.

We, we, we've done a lot of simulations, a lot of scale modeling, um, everything while working as a consultant and as a, as a commercial engineer. Uh, so it kind of took, took some time to, to catch up. And as I was progressing, my, my research, I was touching more and more subjects related to, um, fire safety of buildings, like growing my expertise, growing my.

My interests, uh, into something like more, more holistic, uh, and building the knowledge that I have today, building up, uh, new fields of research, touching new projects, uh, doing exciting collaborations. And then it just snowballed with, with so many fascinating research projects I've met. So, so many great people who are fundamental to the end, to the scientific, uh, growth of our discipline.

And I was, I was really lucky to be exposed to them and, and learn so much from them. And today, this many years later, I'm. Now, mostly I'm a researcher. I, I still do modeling. I still do consultancy. And it's, it's difficult to split your time in a half between, um, this type commercial type of work and, and the research.

And I love both. Definitely. And, and my, my commercial work affects my consultants, my research, my research affects my consultancy. So, so I, I believe it's a perfect combination, uh, for, for an engineer to, to have. And yes, I, I enjoy it as much as on the first day. Wow. That's fascinating. I love hearing about how you have had the ability to not only have the functional knowledge of how to, you know, do modeling for the, you know, buildings that are in construction.

and use that functional application to design buildings, but you've also had the opportunity to, you know, chase your passions and dive into research. I would love to hear more about, uh, you know, a little bit O on the, uh, how you interface with, you know, the commercial construction, because, uh, I, maybe this instance happens in the us and I'm just not aware of it, this kind of coupling with the commercial, uh, business and, you know, research.

I'm sure it does that. I'm just not as ingrained in this field, but yeah, I'm fascinated by that. How does that, how does that kind of work, you know, do you work in with, uh, do you work with consultants or I just, uh, I'm intrigued by that. Yeah. So, so basically, um, we, uh, are as consultants, we, we try to be specialized, uh, company or, well, my group is a specialized group that does the CD modeling and helps designer design, better smoke control systems.

We, we do not do the mechanical designs. We do not do building designs. Um, when we get hired, our, our goal is either to verify the solution as presented by the designers. And then we get into the CFD modeling or. Be exposed to an preexisting design and, and help improve that design, um, with, with our knowledge.

So, so the role is, is rather specialized and, and, um, we, we really like it like this. We, we're not interested in, in growing the package into like a full design, uh, from, from scratch to a, to a project with Samsung. And, and then that you can send to the, uh, authorities, uh, we, we were not that type of company.

We are here to, to, to, to give, give the clients very, very specialized advice based on our experience. And that also means the types of the buildings we are involved in is kind of, of specific. We currently are involved mainly in road tunnels and, and, and railway tunnels, um, because there's a lot of.

Ongoing tunneling projects in, in Poland, we get involved in all types of like underground, uh, railway stations, stadiums, uh, skyscrapers, large shopping malls, basically the, the, the largest developments you can find in, in our country, but also in, in Europe. And, um, yeah, that, that's a, that's quite nice because we get to work on the most challenging projects.

And again, the, the scope that we are covering as the consultancy is, is, is fairly limited to the, to the smoke control and Oxy systems that will work with the smoke control. So, uh, it's manageable for the team to, to actually give that advice, um, for, for such a huge projects that usually require hundreds of engineers to, to, to completely pull off.

And then we are proud to take an important part in the development of these projects and for the research, um, That's like a second lag that we're standing on. Um, as the, as the Institute, the Institute is, um, is, uh, partially funded by the ministry of, of science and higher education in Poland. So there is, um, there are some money for research and given to the ITB every year.

So we compete for this, uh, internally with, with other research teams at ITB. Uh, we, we propose, uh, what areas of research are, are the most interesting to pursue. We design the experiments and if they get funded, we, we get to do them, uh, And the ethics are obviously papers, conference, materials, books, and stuff like that.

And we also compete for like external grants in like the grant agency of Poland, Europe. Uh, that one is a bit tougher because the competition is much bigger and, um, Sometimes you can, you are feeling like it's more, a random chance rather than a real review of the project contents and, uh, it's kind of awkward system.

Um, but yeah, we'll, that's the system, so we play it and, uh, we hope for this funding. We, we have just received a very, very large, uh, grant for wind and fire, coupled modeling. So I'm super excited to, to have this, uh, to have the funds, to, to continue this research research for the next two years. And, uh, in the end.

Yeah. It's like, um, it's 50, 50 some, some months there's more, more research, less commercial work. Some months are just full of commercial work and you just have to balance it out somehow. Well, I feel like you get the best of both worlds. The fact that you get to split your experience in these two, uh, vastly different fields.

I mean, some of the same tenants in. Fundamental building blocks, but to completely different fields, really. And, and guys, I, I, I often say that we do a selfish kind of science because, uh, the projects we are researching are usually the ones, uh, that. Means something in our consultancy, like there are wide fields with no data available, for example, or there are models that we know that are not the most efficient ones.

There are, um, magic numbers that we ha cannot track the origin of. And we are unable to, to engineer around them because it's it's number. And you have no idea how to, what will happen if you alter it, for example. So, um, these, uh, these, these practical problems, when we meet when doing the consultancy are absolutely affecting our science and in a way that are drivers for, for the new research ideas we have.

So. It's, it's not only like, uh, taking the, both of the, of the worlds, but in a way, crushing them against each other and, and, uh, yeah, using science, uh, to improve the engineering and, and using engineering to, um, to do meaningful science. I think that that's pretty cool. Wow. That's really exciting and fascinating.

I mean, I don't think that's selfish at all, wanting to, you know, I think that sometimes research or education can get disjointed from the real world or, you know, solving these technical problems. So I don't know. That's it sounds. Exactly. What I would be interested in is taking these, uh, complex research topics and sharpening them to a point to, you know, uh, help us be competitive, uh, commercially or, you know, just make the science more stress tested and, and viable for everybody involved.

So I, I would absolutely, I would absolutely recommend to any like CEO or a person in the position to drive a larger fire engineering company to invest some time and your best people into research, because you'll be absolutely amazed what they come up with and how greatly that can affect the business aspect of, of, of being a commercial company.

I, I, I believe that, um, it's really beneficial for engineer to look on a problem with an eyes of a scientist and be like completely, Hmm. Free to research the answer, um, to find the, to find the answer and again, be, um, Look, look through the problem to the problem through the, um, scientific method, like without, uh, without, uh, predicting what will happen, but measuring what will happen, um, testing your hypothesis, doing, doing like your real research and what you receive in the research.

That's, that's an outcome and you have to work with it. You cannot guess it. You cannot like make it up. And, uh, then you're faced with some intriguing problems. Maybe you can find out that some, that no one ever has found, and maybe you can figure out that a method we use for all the time we've used in the wrong way.

And I think that it's beautiful and it is, uh, if you do that, you not only improve your own quality of, of your consultancy, but you can make the, the whole discipline better and, and help every other engineer progress towards, uh, towards the truth. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that sentiment. Yeah. I think that large companies who are interested in doing business the most competitive way possible are interested in, in research.

And, you know, as a, as someone who works in the company who is interested in, uh, innovative technology and automation and, you know, some of these advanced BIM techniques, I see that, uh, in the future, I don't know how, uh, people will stay competitive at, at a large scale without investing in some of these endeavors.

But yeah, I think that's all great points OIC, and I just wanted to kind of proceed in our discussion of, you know, the built environment and, you know, some of your career experiments with, or, I mean, uh, experiences with, you know, I. Originally, when we were first talking, you had a, a paper that you sent me that you were a part of that went over some of the, the nuances and differences between like the us and some different, uh, building codes and for different nations.

And I'd love to hear some insight from, you know, what you see as the, the contrasts or similarities from, you know, how the building codes and standards work in Poland. And then, you know, um, obviously how they, uh, stack up to other nations. You're probably referring to that, to the philosophy paper. I've, I've sent that to you because, um, we've just met and you wanted to learn who I was and that paper probably, um, summarizes me as a person quite well, because it was, it was at a very particular time in my career where I, I just took, uh, some time off and, and just summarized everything done so far and then made some directions for the future.

And the, the paper was in a way an outcome of this, of this process. So I, I, I really like that, that paper, um, it's, uh, very focused on the Polish system and Polish system is, is, is rather complex. One in terms of, of how the, how it's built. We are obviously in the European framework, which defines a lot of things, but then we have our own building code, which, um, Rules how, how the building should be built.

We have a separate fire safety code, which, um, Which defines the, the principles of operations of buildings in terms to their fire safety. And that spans over all, all of the buildings, not only the ones that are just being built, but by, but all of them. So, so there are many overlapping, uh, lows and, uh, it it's good.

Funny because, um, for example, the, the whole building code in Poland is prescriptive to the bone. It's it just defines you what you need to have in your buildings. Like you, it defines everything distances with lengths of evacuation roots, the classes of your walls, uh, the type of your ceiling, literally everything.

And then in the same. You have one paragraph that says that smoke control systems should provide tenable condition on the evacuation roots within the safe evacuation time. And that's the most, uh, performance based way to define a system you can have within the same law. So, so it's kind of, um, full of contradictions and, um, and sometimes it's quite difficult to go through, but, um, with the, with having this code, we could observe how Polish environment changed, how, um, such aspects as smoke control.

And use of advanced modeling in, in the, in the design of smoke control that literally exploded it's. I would put a claim that we have some of the most advanced engineered systems for, for smoke removal in the world. Like truly every single building that's bigger than a, a house for a family. Every single building is going through some sort of modeling and advanced methods are used to, to, to design the systems in that building, uh, to meet that accountability criteria.

So, so I, I think that's quite unique because as I talk with colleagues from other parts of the world, it's not that common OB, obviously the, the, the advanced models are used, but not for every single project there is. Um, so that's outstanding. On the other hand, we, we have some. Ridiculous requirements in terms of, for example, fire resistance of walls, to give you an example, if you build a, a skyscraper that's taller than 55 meters, your walls should be, uh, for our fire resistant glass, which it's, which is kind of ridiculous requirement.

If you, if you know, uh, how fire resistant works and what's behind it. And, uh, how can the fire develop in an office? So, so, so probably there is no need for, for, for hour of the resistance. You could most likely provide the same amount of safety with two or three hour walls and, and, and pump up some other active systems to compensate for that.

And you would most likely end up with a, with a much safer system and building. So, um, in that paper, what we wanted to do with, with Dr. Soak Micor is we wanted to. Like summarize everything that's happening around the, the fundamental requirements of the European law re in regards to safety, because that's the one that tells you what the building should do in, in, in case of the fire that they should protect lives, that you should have, uh, evacuation, the fire should not spread and so on and so on.

So we wanted to summarize briefly what's happening in this areas in, in one paper that you could give to a civil engineer or architect or, or someone who's not a fire engineer. And they would immediately have an overview how, how this, uh, systems are connected to each other. Because, um, the thought that we have was that there are so many, um, decisions made by non-fire professionals that are fundamental to the fire safety of the building.

It's. It makes no sense that these people do not have even the basic knowledge of the fire safety concepts. They, there is no way they can visit the consequences of their decisions, which often can be profound, especially when we are talking about architecture of the building, the way, the way, how, how the building is shaped inside.

And, um, yeah, what we wanted to do with that, um, was to give, uh, nice introduction to non non-fire specialists on, on, on how complex the fire safety is and how many aspects play together. And now if, if you compare that to, um, all the law systems, it it's difficult to me to, to, to do a comparison because obviously I'm, I'm based in Poland.

And I, I, I am not an expert in, in the law of other countries, but. As we discussed this with colleagues from, from SF P Europe. Um, and we often have these, these types of discussions, every country has it has, has its own flavors and every country is, is fixated on, on something. Um, but, um, it seems that, that it still mostly prescriptive based everywhere is very rare that, um, a whole country would, would introduce fully performance based engineering into their projects.

I I'm aware of only a few countries that, that have that. And, um, I'm not even sure if that's, um, that's possible in countries like, like, like mine, like Poland to, to have it fully performance based. Um, engineered not that it's something that, um, that's wrong, that, that I would not cherish. I would love to have the possibility to, um, design the buildings to the best of my knowledge and experience.

It's just that I'm kind of afraid what others would do with this powerful, uh, tool. And there, there are risks involved, obviously with, with, with allowing people to do performance based engineering. And until we figure out the how to distinguish a good engineer from a bad engineer, how to measure competencies, how to prove competencies, um, it may be, um, unvisible to, to go fully performance based.

It's a difficult discussion. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I don't know. Uh, You know, the us is heavily prescriptive. Um, I would say, uh, much more so even than, uh, your description of, of Poland, um, as far as like in, uh, several hundred projects that I've been a part of in my, my five year career, I've not once had a design that was performance based.

So if that gives you any idea and wow, you know, what, as far as another thing you touched on that really kind of blew me away was the smoke control. Um, you know, you touched on earlier how most, the projects you're involved with, you know, these are all common facilities that we would see smoke control in the us.

Highrise buildings, ATR, you know, buildings with atriums, arenas, stadiums, uh, you know, tunnels. Uh, I don't deal with the construction of tunnels, but I can see easily how the tenability of these spaces would have, um, exceptional concern. Uh, so deep, underground buildings, you know, there are a set list of places where smoke control is required in the us.

And, um, You know, there's a, not a huge variety of these buildings, especially not in a state like Oklahoma, where I'm from is very sprawling geographically. And so there are not as many high-rise buildings, so it's even less so even fewer of these systems. So I was kind of blown away when you said that the smoke control systems were, or, you know, smoke control analysis and, and ventilation, uh, you know, and CFD was used on, uh, Uh, sounded like the majority of buildings.

I was just really kind of blown away. I, I I'm, I would be surprised if it was not used in, in, in a, in a bigger project. Like EV every single car park goes through CD modeling. Every staircase that's larger than let's say five, uh, floors is going to CD modeling. Every single H that requires smoke control will go through a CFD modeling.

Every tunnel will go through a hell of CFD modeling because these projects are very, very, they, they have huge requirements in terms of quality of the system you deliver at them. So, um, yeah, it's not even majority, I would say it's like almost all of them literal. that is wild. Yeah. And then another thing you said that that blew me away was the four hour wall and how that's for the exterior of the building.

That is a extremely significant, uh, fire resistant, re fire resistant requirement for the exterior of a building. You know, generally, uh, it's a very, uh, few cases with, you know, extremely dangerous hazardous materials in which we would require a four hour rated wall for that case. It's even, it even becomes more ridiculous when you look at it, uh, through the eyes of the scientist, because if you just consider a.

Compartment thermodynamic system that, that you have a fire in it. And it's a small compartment. Um, the amount of fuel in a typical office load. Even if you count off the sprinklers that let's say the sprinklers don't work and you just have that compartment, the, the fuel in it will most likely burn out within one hour, maybe 90 minutes after the fire started.

So that's the maximum fire duration of, of a fully fledged fire you could expect in, in a compartment. Obviously it's just a number. You can calculate that, but, but that, that's how it would end up in most of the cases. And if you have a very large open plan, Uh, compartment. Um, then it's also unlikely you'll have the, the, the exposure in one place for this many hours.

Um, I'm not sure if you're, if you know the traveling fire methodology, but it, it was developed in England, uh, sometime ago. And it's fascinating new way to design, uh, a structural fire resistance. Uh, but in principle, it, it, it, it means that fires. In a large open plan settings will be moving through the, through the compartment as, as, as the fuel is being eaten by the flames.

And you will either end up with, uh, low energy fire that lasts for a very long time. But then your temperatures are not that high, uh, or you will end up with a very, very large fire, but it will burn through the fuel very quickly within 20, 30, 40 minutes. So you end up with very, very aggressive fire, but the short one, and literally it, it's not possible to find a physical explanation of the fire in office setting that would, um, create as honors conditions as the standard fire for such long time.

And. Basically it's unphysical, it's, it's, it's, uh, almost impossible to happen in, in, in the modern building. And yet it's a, is a requirement of the law. This is why, um, looking, uh, through the fire science on these things is, is so valuable because I, I would never know. I would just obey to this, uh, requirement and then let's go, let's go deeper.

What does, what's the consequence of, of this requirement? It obviously means you have to have the walls much thicker. You possibly might have to use additional fire protection of these walls, which you would normally not use. Um, there's a very good chance. You will have to increase the rebar depth in your concrete to protect the structural steel from the fires leading into much bigger, uh, You would need purely from the structural, uh, resilience of the building.

And that adds to the wave of the building. So suddenly because your, your building is, is waiving more, you add more strain to the fundamentals. You probably require even more material in the bottom part of the building, making it even more heavy. Uh, and we had this project where the building was, um, going slightly above an underground, uh, subway system.

And we've reached the, the bottom line of the structural design of the building, where it was not possible to add anymore weight to the, to the building, because otherwise it would, uh, affect the subway system in a way that it was not allowed to. So you could not increase, uh, the weight of the building by an ounce.

It was just, just the maximum. And yet to add the fire protection, you would have to. So we we've went, uh, quite length, uh, to, to prove that, um, the building actually does require this, this fire resistance. And it is very safe as, as, as designed, uh, thankfully in Polish system, we have this delegation procedure where you can ask the ministry to, um, allow you to fulfill a, uh, a function, a requirement that's prescriptive in, in a different way that you propose and you propose a countermeasures for that.

And, and it was accepted and that the building is, is now being constructed. But if you just obey the law in the end, you would not be able to build the building. So, so that's like quite ridiculous. If you go purely poorly, uh, pres. Yeah. Wow. That's a, that's a fabulous illustration of an instance in which a variance from what the building code prescribes and what, uh, you know, you can show through, uh, performance based design and, you know, science rooted in reality, uh, what you can really do with the toolkit of, you know, being able to, to lean on performance based design.

That's pretty wild. Yeah. I'm, I'm super, super interested about your discussion of, you know, the, how you can either have, uh, a fire reaches flashover and kind of its peak heat release rate, which is probably the more common occurrence in today's society and how, you know, it'll basically starve itself out and, you know, not be able to last for this.

This four hour wall, like, yeah, that makes so much intuitive sense when you say that, but I've never thought of that. Uh, so since it's such a rare occurrence, uh, I've only ever seen like a four hour wall in construction in the us, like, uh, maybe like once or twice as a firewall is, you know, providing total building separation between two facilities.

but, mm. Yeah, I think that's FA that's fascinating. Yeah, it is. And then that's just one of the requirements and there are, there are many like, like this, uh, where if you crush them with, with physics, with, with, uh, way how fires work way, how, uh, how buildings work you end up with with requirements that do not make sense.

For example, the root of the, of the CFD in Poland, on of smoke control systems. And that's actually quite, quite funny story because, um, in, in early two thousands, we had a low that said that, um, in a smoke control system, you have to, um, place your exhaust, um, grills. Not, uh, further away than 10 meters from each other.

There was this, this, this one clause in the code that said that the maximum distance between the exhaust points is 10 meters. And, um, suddenly at some point the jet fan systems were. Introduced into to Polish market and jet fund system is a system for car parks, where instead of having an array of, of ducts in your car park that remove the smoke from underneath the ceiling, you use a bunch of, of, of horizontal blowing funds to move the smoke horizontally to a single exhaust point located somewhere in the car pack.

So it's a different philosophy. And, uh, the obvious benefit is that, um, you don't deduct at that point, the ducts were made with, uh, with fireproof bolts because there were no, um, steel ducts load on the market that would have that required certificates. So the ducks were very, very expensive, uh, to be built.

And then the jet people came and said that you don't need the ducks. You can just put this, this fence and you need the ceiling and it will work out. And then they were crushed with the law because the law said, you need to have grills 10 meters from each other. And you obviously cannot do that when you don't have ducks and grills.

Right? So these people were facing very, um, very big problem because in principle, their system was illegal. So they've, um, started doing this CD modeling to show that the systems are safe and that they can provide, um, expected conditions within the car park. As the system works, that's one thing. And then they were using this irrigation procedure to, um, ban the, the, that clause of the law for their project.

And, uh, they were getting approval that, okay, for this project, you don't have to meet this requirement of the, of the, um, of the grills. You can instead use CFD modeling to prove that the jet fund system is used instead and it's safe. And because it was at that point, it was such a big, uh, money saving for the investors to replace a traditional system with the jet fund system.

I assume there was dozens, if not hundreds of this, um, irrigation. Procedures floating the office of the, of the authorities. And at some point they, they most likely, um, figured out that it makes no sense to, to give a delegation for every single building they meet it's they, they just put, uh, the staple, um, uh, clause of the delegation into the law, which was this, uh, performance based clause that I dimension before that the system shall provide conditions on equation root within the safe equation time.

And with this suddenly the jet one systems became legal and, uh, the, the be we are benefactor of that because suddenly the performance based engineering was kind of, uh, maybe I maybe even accidentally allowed for all smoke control projects. So it all started with a ridiculous requirement of the, of the grills being so close to each other and a system that could not ever meet it because it didn't have grills.

And, uh, a scientific view on the problem, because you could prove with experiments and simulations that even though you don't have grills, you still, um, have a working system for your car park. And that led to the, to the big change in the low maybe, uh, similar stories will lead to changes in, in different clauses of the law.

Uh, in the future. I, I would actually quite like that if, if that happened. Um, but yeah, moving into a full. Full performance basis. As I mentioned, there's a different discussion and much more difficult problem. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. It's uh, I don't know. I don't know how that would work. Uh, I would be happy in the us if just, you know, uh, the authorities were more knowledgeable about performance based design as an option.

I'm sure there are many cities and entire states that, uh, have never seen these designs are very rarely seen this even as an option. So, uh, I hear, you know, other parts of the world and how frequently that, uh, performance best design is, is used. I, I think of that as something to aspire for, let alone total, uh, you know, all of everything being, having the ability to be performance based, but I think it's an interesting issue.

You raise about, you know, how. We need some way to verify competencies and, you know, modeling parameters and, and these sort of things. It's, it's always, uh, seemed to me as an outsider looking in that, uh, there's, it's such an art to be able to model a fire. I don't, I don't know if you have, uh, some more thoughts about that and for, you know, for the audience and for my curiosities.

Yeah. Well, it's, um, it's definitely a difficult subject. The field is full of magic numbers that, that are flying around and are being used by by engineers and then CFD engineers. Um, in our case, the car, the car parks are a really good example, for example, for Poland, because, um, they were the first ones to be modeled on, on such a massive scale.

And, um, in, in a car park, um, besides your ventilation parameters, obviously the thing that will drive the, the outcome is the, the way how you model the fire. Obviously as the, the hit rate, that's the factor of your fire. That's your hit of combustion of the, of the car. And, um, It also shows the dark side of this performance based engineering because as these projects were, were commonly modeled with, with computers and, uh, accepted based on a computer, on the results of computer modeling, we have also observed the trend that some of the companies, uh, to win a contract over a competitor where for example, using a smaller fire to, to, because it's, there is no act of load that says that your fire in a car park shall be this value.

Now it's, it's, it's all like engineering judgment. And, uh, there are resources that you can base, um, base your, uh, your, your engineering judgment on. But, uh, I, I know resources that, that say it should be like 15 mega megawatts. If you go into work of JOA from France and there are. Papers that that say it can be like two megawatts if you go to like, uh, alt Brunk experiments in, in Germany.

So, um, who is there to say, which experiment is, is, is more real than the other ones. So, so it's kind of difficult to choose between them and it, it was. Kind of nasty when the competition on the market started, not on the quality of systems delivered, but on the boundary conditions of the simulations that prove that the systems work, because if you are a designer and let's say you design your system to withstand eight megawatt fire in a car park, and I'm your competitor.

And I design mine for four megawatts, there's a great chance that mine will be much cheaper than yours because I will use less fans. My fans will have different temperature, ratings and so on. And, um, that's a very bad incentive to give. And, you know, uh, money is king on the market, especially on, on, on cheaper projects, like residential developments where.

You have to force 200 people to pay for 200 flats and include the price of the, of the structure built, uh, into their, uh, square meter price, uh, of, of the building. So, uh, you want to have the whole process as cheap as possible, and if you can ha save, uh, $1 million on, on your systems, then you would be very happy to do that.

If you costed you just a simulation and the fires do not happen, right. So why would you care that much? And, um, in actually in 2015, or maybe even, maybe even earlier, we, we, we have noticed this trend in, in, in Copak fires and what we have decided, um, with, with my colleague KKI was to write a book on how to design car park, um, ventilation systems.

And in that book, we took a, a very brave, um, move to explain in great detail. How are we modeling the car parks? Uh, we gave like flat out what are the boundary conditions we use in the simulations? What is the fire that we use in the simulations? What's the suit yield? What is the heat of combustion? Uh, exactly the values that we are using in our common work that have not been changed since I, I believe 2005, we we've never, we've never, um, made them smaller because of a need of a project.

And we gave it to the market and it was not that we say, okay, from today, the ITB says, you should, you should use this numbers. What we did is we went to many, like dozens of conferences and we. Clearly explain the people, the differences that change of these parameters make. If we say that you should use, for example, four megawatt fire to simulate a single burning.

If you use two megawatt fire that is half of the smoke being released into the car park, that's something that, that layman can understand. And then it's like, uh, shines a bright light in their mind. If they see a simulation of, of, on the health heat release rate and they, they can then understand that the system is smaller, not because it's magically better, but because the, the simulation used to, to, to confirm it was, was done on a difficult assumptions and the same for the suit yield.

If you. Decrease the suit yield twice. You release half of the smoke into the car park. If you increase the heat of combustion twice, you decrease the amount of suit, uh, released to the car park by factor of two. Again, if you do all of the, these three things together, you release eight times less smoke into the car park.

And then it's very difficult to say that those two simulations are showing the exact same case and can be used to compare the systems proposed by different offices. So when we have, uh, flat out shown how it's being modeled and how this, uh, small, small choices of the, the, of the CFD engineer altered the results and the outcome of the CFD more and more, um, offices were, um, Were aware of the, of the issue.

And they were able to distinguish the, the two differences between systems, because they immediately knew that if someone approaches them with an offer, that they can make system significantly cheaper and then shows them simulation on, on like eight fold, less amount of smoke, they, they immediately realized that, okay, can you repeat, repeat the simulation with this kind of assumptions?

And then usually that office backed off. So in terms of, of, of car park, uh, fi of car park design, we, we somehow put a stop to this, um, to this practice with, uh, with showing the design scenarios. And if you ask people, um, who are professionally dealing with performance based design, This actually is something they do not really like because, um, the performance based design assumes a, a freedom of judgment for an engineer.

You are the engineer who can determine the hazard, who can determine the applicable scenarios, the tools to be used, the criteria to be, um, used in the assessment. And then the better mind if the outcome of your study is correct or not, that's performance based engineering. And then if you prescribe. Part of this, of this, uh, process like prescribe the hit release rate of, of your design fire.

You are kind of limiting this ability to, to engineer within the performance based engineering. So it's, it's putting some boundaries on it, which, um, for the most creative and competent engineers are not needed. But then again, there's the other part of the market, for which giving them a complete freedom is as dangerous as not having, uh, PBD at all.

So, um, Yeah, it's um, it's good to share the knowledge on, on how, how stuff like CFD modeling is being done. It's good to openly discuss it. It's very good to present this knowledge to other stakeholders in your process, um, who are not necessarily CFD experts, because there's not many C of the experts to be honest, uh, but show it in a way that, that, that, that they could understand how these small changes in the most critical parameters affect the outcome.

And if these people get educated, um, the work of all of us becomes easier because, um, you stop competing with, uh, with, uh, fraudulent. Engineers who, who would rather cut the fire in a half and win a contract, then, then design it properly and not win it. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm not, I don't know if it's a big issue in, in the us, but Poland in early 2000 tens.

Uh, and I was early this century. It was an issue and, and we came up out of this and today's, it's quite nice. I would say. Yeah, I think that there is probably, uh, since it's so not common, I would imagine that, you know, there's groups like society for fire protection engineers, that's, you know, working on trying to set some of these minimum parameters if you will.

But yeah, I think it's, uh, not a situation that's isolated to Poland. I imagined it's, you know, something that can be found all around the world. That, uh, this, this thing where people are not, um, even if it's, you know, if you extrapolate that outside of just CFD, I mean, and fire and life safety in general, you can find those who have chosen to not, you know, take the best case engineering judgment and provide the equivalent, um, you know, product or ability to protect fire and life safety.

So I think that, uh, this is a trend in the, in the industry at large that, uh, this, this minimum competencies and the, you know, this value that we all find acceptable as, as true for, you know, equivalent life safety measures. But yeah, I really enjoyed that. Um, I just wanted to ask about what, what projects are or pieces of, um, research or.

Or projects or research things. Are you working on now? I saw some, some pictures on your Twitter of some looked like some interesting, uh, things being constructed and you're looked like they were going to be burned. So I, I feel like I'd be, uh, I'd be kicking myself if I didn't get a chance to ask you about what you're working on now.

Yeah, we, we, we have a fire laboratory. There's always something being burned. That's the beauty of this, of this job. Um, currently we are, uh, the, the things that you refer to are most likely the, um, SDA S I, um, timber in fire project, which, um, there's an Alliance of timber manufacturers in Europe who wish to investigate, um, how exposed timber can change the, the compartment fire dynamics in, in a, in a very short way to say that.

So, so it's a RG on, on timber behavior in fire, in compartment, fire scenarios, which, which will be absolutely fantastic. And, and I'm really excited for this project, but that, that there's a lot of ongoing research at ITB, um, for the starter. I I'm just, I just start with the large wind and fire grant where we will.

Use risk based approach to quantify the wind effects on, on, on building fires and to what outcome, to, to what, um, to what level the, the wind affects the outcomes of fires. And what's unique in this research is that I, I'm not truly looking into the, the strongest winds or most honors wins. I'm looking into, uh, probabilistic distribution of winds on, on buildings.

And I'm actually interested in interested in the moderate winds and the ones that are most common. And yeah, we want to quantify what's the, what's the risk of, of both with wind and fire exposure at the same time. So I think this will, I, I think this will answer a lot of questions regarding to what extent to wind changes the outcomes of compartment fires and.

When should we put additional effort to model wind? Because modeling wind is, is a huge challenge. And, uh, yeah, we, we we've landed before that, that it's not in simple task to, to include wind in your analysis. Um, a second project that's that's really, really interesting is. Is the facade project with Imperial college London.

That's ongoing research with Dr. Bonner and professor Gamarra and then other students from CHEI and Benjamin co. Um, we are burning a bunch of, of medium sized facades with a Polish method to figure out how changes in materials impact the, um, outcomes of the fires, uh, to quantify the effects of the cavity.

Uh, Francesca is doing, uh, numerical modeling of, of failure of, of mechanical failure of facades. So that's also super exciting. So in general, that field of, of, um, of fire science is super, super interesting and, and, uh, very exciting to work on. Um, we're also researching smoke, uh, in corridors, we were building a large corridor facility to simulate, um, compartment fires with, uh, smoke exposure to.

Characters and yeah, we're doing much, much more. It's like, , you would be surprised how much parallel research projects are happening now. And all of them are, are exciting. These three are just, uh, the best ones for sure. Wow. That's awesome. Well, WOIC, I wanna thank you so much for coming on the show. I would love to proceed down the, some of the past of your research.

I feel like the win one is a whole podcast in itself. Oh, I know we didn't get into that. I really want, I want to talk to you about that and your ideas since I know it's near and dear to your heart. But, uh, we'll have to have you on again. And, uh, yeah, that's a lot of fun that that's, I hope that's a promise when we have the first results of the project.

I, I, I guarantee you'll be the first one to hear that we have a breakthrough and I will be, I would love to share it with your, with your audience then. That's awesome. Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

On this solocast, we’re introducing our standpipe systems series! The series dissects codes that require these systems and the standards that dictate the installation features. In the first episode of our standpipe solocast series, we cover the classes and types of standpipe systems, codes and how to determine when standpipes are required.

Don’t forget, if you’re interested in hearing a series bonus episode, head over to Patreon.com/firecodetech.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal I.

Hello. All welcome to episode four of the solo cast of fire code tech on this solo cast. We. Standpipes. So this is a really big topic and I'm sure I'll talk about it on multiple videos, but it's one that's near and dear to my heart. And so I had trouble understanding the requirements around standpipes.

Uh, when I first started to branch over into the. FPE part of my career. And so I want to kind of highlight the codes and standards as well as, um, some of the things that I've learned about BIM coordination and installation for stand pipes. So yeah, I'm try to start off very basic. And then, uh, she. How much I can get out of this topic since there's a lot, there's a, there's a huge amount to what standpipes are and, uh, when you need 'em and you know, the different varietals, so excited about this one.

So for preface, uh, I want to get started with the codes surrounding the stand pipe systems. So I'm going to start off with. The international building code and address the code section that talks about standpipes. So how do you know if you need a standpipe system? So if you live in the us. And you're working in a jurisdiction that adopts the international building code.

What you would do is take a look at section 9 0 5, which is stand pipe systems and take a look at the requirements for when these systems are required. And so essentially if you're building meets, uh, one of these criteria, then you are required to have a stand pipe. And so let's go over a couple of those criteria that might require your building to have a stand pipe system.

9 0 5 0.1 says stand pipe system shall be provided in new buildings and structures in accordance with sections 9 0 5 2 through 9 0 5 10 in buildings used for high piled combustible storage, fire protection shall be in accordance with the international fire code 9 0 5 2 dictates the installation standard, which is an FPA 14.

The other document that drives the install and the other applicable equipment requirements for stand pipe systems. So here's where we get into some of the criteria in the international building code, which dictate when these systems are required, 9 0 5 0.3 required installations starts to go over some of the factors, um, in which you might need, which some of the building factors, which might put you into a category of building that requires a stand pipe systems.

So the first. Factor is height. The 9 0 5 0.3 0.1 says class three stand pipe system shall be installed throughout the buildings where the floor level at the highest story is located more than 30 feet above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access. I'll be sure to put a picture of this up in the show notes.

Essentially, this means that wherever you have, uh, wherever your fire department access is, if your building has an applicable floor, 30 feet above this area, then your building is required to have a stamp pipe. This is important because this is probably the most frequent. Um, determining factor for, uh, throwing your building into a class of building, which re requires a stamp pipe system.

So that's the first and the foremost interesting that it's listed first, an interesting note about this requirement and just how it fits into the building code. Is there are significant requirements for your building if you have exits that are, I mean, if you have. Stories which are 30 feet above or below the level of exit discharge or the fire department access.

So there's, uh, big life safety implications. When you start adding significant height on your building and, you know, you don't have a way to immediately exit to, uh, an egress path on ground level. Or the level of fire department access in this case, furthermore, in this 9 0 5 0.3 0.1 section describing the height and how that requirement is there for buildings of a appreciable height to be required to have stand pipes.

There are some exceptions for what type of stand pipe is required. And so, uh, you could take a look at those, but I'm just gonna keep going on to the factors, uh, Building features that would require a standpipe. The next, uh, factor you could say in 9 0 5 0.3 0.2 is group a occupancies and it says class one, automatic wet standpipe shall be provided in nons sprinkler group, a buildings that have an occupant load exceeding a thousand persons.

Uh, that seems like a strange one, cuz I feel like if you have a, an, a occupancy with a thousand. Um, maybe there are some existing construction examples, but generally you would be required to have sprinklers at that point anyways. So in most, in a lot of instances. So that's an interesting caveat there. 9 0, 5 0.3 0.3 covered mall and open mall buildings.

So, you know, another requirement tying back to large amounts of people, um, covered mall and open mall buildings shall be equipped throughout with a stamp pipe system where required by 9 0 5 3 1. Mall buildings not required to be equipped with the stamp pipe system shall be equipped with a class one host connection throughout the automatic sprinkler system size to deliver 250 gallons per minute.

So here's a set of, so open malls are malls in general, have some. Extra occupancy requirements, just, um, due to the nature of the facility. So the next factor just below here is nine to 5.3 0.4 stages. So this can be a tricky one. It's a good one. To remember that stages over a certain amount, have life safety implications.

I was working on like a community center, um, and it ended up. A fairly large stage. So in this case, if it's greater than a thousand square feet, you have to have a class three wet stand pipe with the inch and a half inch, two, two and a half inch hose connections on each side of the stage. So, so, but it looks like there's an exception for automatic sprinkler systems, but if you have a small building with a big stage, which could happen, uh, this might, this might trigger you.

Here's that height thing coming back, um, into play that we spoke of earlier 9 0 5 0.3 0.5 underground building shall be equipped throughout with a class one automatic wet or manual stand pipe. Um, underground buildings probably has a very specific meaning in the definitions. And so I'm just gonna rip off the, the last couple of these, um, requirement occupancies, if you will, they're all kind of the same.

He stops and heliports 9 0 5, 3 0.90 5.3 0.6 marina. And boatyards 9 0 5 0.3 0.7 and then roof rooftop gardens and landscaped roofs. So let's go through, you know, we didn't talk about, probably should have talked about this first. What is a stand pipe? That's a great question. Let's take a look at the definition in N FPA 14.

I'm looking at the 2019 edition and this is 3.3 point 20. Stand pipe system, an arrangement of piping valves, valves, hose, connections, and associated equipment installed in a building or structure with the hose connections located in such a manner that water can be discharged in streams or spray patterns through the attached hose and nozzles for the purpose of extinguishing a fire, thereby protecting a building structure or, and its contents.

In addition to protecting the occupants. So the next thing I wanna talk about is what are the different classes and types of stand pipe systems. So I want to focus on. A little bit of some of these definitions in an FPA 14. And I think it's important because you know, the building code references, the different classes of stand pipe and when they're required.

And so I think it's a really good baseline to have as an understanding, to know what are the different types of systems and. What's most common. So I'll, I'll go over in my experience. Um, what systems are most common and the different types of systems, so let's get into it. So we have. First of all there's system classes.

So this is stand pipe system classes. So we have class one through three. So I just will read the definitions. It's just as exposition on different stand pipe classes. So we have class one, a system that provides a two and a half inch host connection to supply water use for fire departments. So the big difference between all these system classes.

Um, the valving is, is similar for all these systems, but the thing that changes is what sized hose connections are provided. So class one is two and a half inch. Uh, this is, uh, a fairly common class I'd say in my experienced, uh, one of the most common. So class two is a system that provides one and a half inch hose stations to supply water for use primarily by train personnel or by fire department during initial response.

Class three is a system that provides one and a half inch host stations to supply water for use by train personnel and two and a half inch host connections to supply larger volume water for use by fire departments. So I'd say I've seen class three, the least in, uh, class one the most, and then class two.

Um, probably second, most common. So generally, if you have class one stand pipes in your stairwells, uh, they're gonna be two and a half inch. And so class two stand pipes is instance in which you would have. Those are for high pod storage or, um, oftentimes in the ancillary portion of the facility for hangers.

This is where you would have class two stamp pipe systems. So these inch and a half hose lines provided throughout the facility to, um, basically help the firefighting personnel. So now that we've talked about the different classes, let's talk about. So just like fire suppression systems, so sprinkler systems, there are, um, wet and dry.

Uh, standpipes. And so there's a couple different varietals of wet and dry stand pipes, but the, the one, uh, thing that standpipe has that sprinklers don't have is the automatic and manual. So a manual standpipe system is where you, the pumper for the. Fire service has to hook up to a hydrant and then charge the system with water.

So, uh, or basically they don't have to charge it with water, but they have to provide the pressure and flow in order to make this system work. So that's a manual system, so there's manual wet and manual dry, and it'll get into more specifics on the definitions for these, but, um, in broad terms, um, Manual wet means that the system is charged with water, but the system is not intended to be able to provide the hydraulic characteristics that is required and then manual dry means there's no water in the system.

And the only time that you get water in this system is when you, uh, the pump hooks up to the fire ex or, uh, Fire Hy the pumper hooks up to the fire hydrant and then they hook up to the FDC connection where they will put water into the system in order to provide a charged line, um, where the fire service needs to attack the fire.

So automatic, what does automatic mean? Automatic means. That this system is, uh, attached to a means to provide the system hydraulic characteristics. Um, I'm sure I'll get into the hydraulic characteristics. I don't know if I'll do it in this episode, how they're, how it's coed. Yeah. So it's hooked up to a, a water source or a water supply that has the ability to.

Provide the capacity for the hydraulics required for a stand pipe system. So, um, generally this is a fire pump. Uh, imagine there could be other water supply scenarios in which, uh, I, I guess it would have to be a fire pump at some point, if not in the building then, um, it, uh, dis distribution level, uh, I guess you could.

Have a city with a stout enough water supply curve to, um, basically consider it automatic. But so that's it for the episode, four of the solo cast of fire code tech in our first episode about standpipes. Uh, as you can tell, I barely just scratched the surface of things that we could talk about, um, pertaining to stand pipes.

Uh, we still didn't touch hydraulic calculations. We didn't really touch, uh, location or coordination items. And so I'm gonna keep going into stand pipes and future installments. Don't know when I get back to it because I want. These varied to keep people interested, but yeah. Oh, and don't forget if you liked this episode, you can go get another bonus episode about stand pipe, where I do an additional 15 minutes, which are topics about stand pipes.

I get into NFP 14, a little bit more in the bonus episode talking about some of the different system types. And so. Get into that a little bit more, but yeah, if you wanna check that out, that's patreon.com/fire code tech. Hope you enjoyed it, and we'll see you next time on fire code tech. Thanks for listening everybody.

Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious. Business the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

Welcome to episode 3 of the Fire Code Tech solocast! On this episode, we dissect the Iroquois Theatre Fire, one of the highest loss of life incidents in the history of modern fires. We break down some of the pitfalls of this tragic event and discuss what led to these unfortunate circumstances.

If you enjoy these episodes, don’t forget to go check out the Patreon at patreon.com/firecodetech where you can find two to thhree additional solocasts a month for the price of a cup of coffee!

Below I’ve included some of the sources I reviewed in preparation for the episode. I hope you enjoy!

Chicago Death Trap: The Iroquois Theatre Fire of 1903 By Nat Brandt: https://amzn.to/2Pe6oaB

Video Book Discussion: https://bit.ly/3u5NHo6

Smithsonian Magazine Article: https://bit.ly/39ncEn7

Meyer Fire Blog Review: https://bit.ly/31s7GBf

Northwestern Law Article: https://bit.ly/2PdbyDC

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about like specific technologies, installation standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal, I.

Hello wall. Welcome to the third episode of the solo cast with your host, Gus Gagliardi. On this episode, we're gonna be doing something a little different even for the solo casts on this episode of fire code tech, we're talking about the EOIs theater fire. Don't forget if you are enjoying these solo cast episodes, go check us out at patreon.com/fire code tech, where you can get an extra two to three of these episodes a month for the price of a cup of coffee.

Oh yeah. I almost forgot it is the one year anniversary of fire code tech wahoo. Just wanna say thank you to everybody who has been a fan and shared, you know, I definitely see the people who have been involved. And I just wanna say, I thank you so much. It means the world for me. And so, yeah, really excited have, uh, a huge white whale episode scheduled to come out the second week of April.

So excited for you guys to hear that. And really excited for what the year two of fire code tech is gonna bring. So, um, get ready, cuz it's gonna be awesome. So I hope you'll bear with me. I want to start doing these. Historic fire solo cast in order to provide a different source of content and kind of gauge the listeners, um, enjoyment of these historic fire podcasts.

I feel like fire and life safety is a profession that is built on tragedy. And you know, the code process is embroiled in kind of reacting to. Historic fires and significant traumatic events in cultural history and, you know, reacting and trying to build a safer world in. Response to these tragedies. So this is my attempt at highlighting some of the fires and disasters that have happened in history and that we have taken great pains to learn from.

And, you know, I, I always tell the story that, or, you know, the fact that in school, it is a. Fairly common practice to, you know, highlight some of these historic fires. To bring a light to, uh, what we've learned, how technology has changed, how the codes have changed. Um, you know, where we were, I wanna highlight where we were historically and where we are today with some of these changes.

And so. Yeah, really. I just wanted to diversify the fire and line safety content, cast a broad net with this, uh, idea of historic fires. And so let me know what you think. So episode one, I read a book called Chicago death trap, which is about the EOIs theater fire. The EOIs theater fire happened in 1903.

What makes this fire so significant is it's one of the most, uh, significant life loss fires in modern history. Over 600 people died in this fire. And when I start to talk about the errors in the fire and life safety systems, um, it's kind of like what didn't go wrong because it's a, just a comedy of errors and there's so much that.

Could have been done better. Another reason why I think that these fires are still relevant is there are some thematic trends in why the fire and I safety didn't get installed correctly. And they're still applicable today. The book I read Chicago death trap is by NA brand. I believe I'm saying that.

Right. But, so I enjoyed the book and I thought it was interesting as a fire and life safety professional, um, in the, in the book they have kind of as a through line at the beginning of each chapter, or, you know, Numerous chapters throughout the book, they'll have a little snippet of code where they will kind of talk about some of the fire and life safety requirements.

One of the really shocking things about this historic fire is that the building was touted as you know, uh, essentially being fireproof. The building was of non combustible construction. And so, and it had numerous fire and life safety features, including sprinklers, uh, fire protection, water storage, tank, smoke, and heat venting.

So. You know, to put a preface on this fire, the great Chicago fire had happened and really, you know, this, this fire and some other fires in this time period had really kind of, uh, more modernized the code. So it's not. To say that the codes and standards at the time were archaic, there were measures in place to kind of curtail the loss of life from fire.

Um, what's yeah. Some of the things that make this fire, so, um, relevant today is that the construction was rushed in order to provide. You know, in order to have the theaters open for the holiday season, the fire took place around the holidays. Most of the lives lost were women and children just due to the nature of the theater occupancy.

And so it's just, uh, beyond tragic that, you know, this building had all. These life safety features that just did not function because they were not maintained and installed properly. So yeah, the book talks a lot about. Kind of the times, you know, what's going on, the measures that were in place, um, for fire and life safety.

At the time, there was a quite extensive, um, fire service in Chicago at the time. And so fires were not an uncommon thing, especially for theaters in this day and age. And, you know, there were a couple of gruesome foreshadowing. Near miss events that the book goes over that kind of led up to this, this tragic, um, fire.

Now, one of the biggest lessons learned from this fire was the fact that the doors were locked during the yeah. Afternoon matinee. And so, you know, this was a huge factor in the loss of life. And so having these doors locked, the reason the doors were locked was to prevent people from sneaking in and out during the show.

And so in the panic of the fire, starting people fled and weren't able to evacuate and, you know, the power immediately went off. And so, you know, not only did you have the. The billowing smoke and the panic and, uh, and the, you know, the fear that ensued, but you had, um, people scrambling to get these doors open.

So the fire started due to an electrical spark. The way it's described is that. The electrical spark has started. And then there is a kind of back of house theater technician that is trying to put out this fire with a by carbonate, like substance kept in a pale. Um, you know, basically like, uh, I forget what it's called.

It has a funny name, but a basically fire extinguisher powder, like substance kept in a Pao. Uh, this brings up another fire in life safety system that didn't work during the fire. They had a fire curtain and it didn't activate. So, uh, yeah, so the fire kind of starts up in the rafters where the, the tech, you know, can get after it.

It's a, it's a spotlight. And so, but he's unable to put out this fire with the bicarbonate substance. And so. yeah, it's, it's pretty astonishing. Um, one of the other HES in the fire protection system was that the fire sprinklers and the standpipe systems were not connected to the fire protection water storage tank.

Um, it's. Unspeakable to think about that this building could have passed inspections and, you know, gone through code enforcement to basically get their certificate of occupancy. I'll go over some of the, you know, litigation components and, uh, you know, how this was assessed after the fact. But, um, there was very minimal more.

Ability for the, you know, the city to pin this on the architect or the, you know, kind of companies that were involved in the construction of this building. Um, due to the, just the way that it was structured at the time, the, uh, liability. and so, yeah, this was a really significant loss of life, life incident.

They had just, um, bodies stacked in the street, approximately like 600, 2, 603, and the formal account. The book really focuses on some of the accounts from people who were in the fire or associated with the fire. Really could have probably lived without those personally, maybe they would interest others.

So that's one note as a, as a code nerd, I was really more interested in the code excerpts and, and how, um, things things changed or, you know, what wasn't followed and the book did cover that comprehensively, but, uh, obviously they needed to also. Get the emotion of the individuals who were trapped in the fire to paint a picture of this event.

Also, they had some really interesting pictures of the facility and a floor plan. Maybe I can find a way to put that in the show notes. So that's it for episode three of the solo cast. If you want to hear more about that EOIs theater. You can go check out the Patreon or you can take a look in the show notes and see all the resources that I've linked there.

Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time on fire code tech. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

Jamie McAllister is a fire protection engineer with a wide variety of professional certifications and extremely professionally qualified. Triple threat is an understatement with a P.E., a Ph.D., a C.F.I and a CSP, I have rarely spoken with an individual with this level of credentials. In this episode we talk about Jamie McAllister’s career, forensic toxicology and professional development. If you are interested in insight from someone who is a case study in hard work and professional achievement tune in on this episode of Fire Code Tech.

https://www.firetox.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-mcallister-1a377349/

Would you explain a little bit about your origin? 2:13

How did your experience in the fire service inform your time at Maryland’s FPE program? 6:11

Would you speak about your first several roles as a professional? 8:20

What is the work and services that FireTox is involved in? 28:07

Do you have advice for networking and maintaining connections in your varied career pursuits? 37:00

Would you speak about the different teaching roles you have maintained during your career? 40:28

Do you have a project or a specific case in your career that was impactful? 44:06

Would you speak about a trend you see in the fire and life safety industry? 50:13

What resources would you recommend to professional? 56:06

Transcription

Episode 25 - Jamie McAllister

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 25 of fire code tech. On today's episode, we have Jamie MC. Jamie McAllister is a fire protection engineer with a variety of professional credentials. She's a PE a PhD CFI and a CSP. That's pretty remarkable. On today's episode, we talk about Jamie's career and some of the various roles that she's held.

We get in depth on toxicology and her, uh, long standing work in forensics. Jamie has some really great, um, professional development advice. Uh, we talk about how to evaluate work life balance and how she has taken stock of her career at certain points. Jamie gives some fascinating stories throughout her career and how she has been able to make an impact as a fire and life safety, professional.

Hope you enjoyed the episode. If you like it, please like subscribe and share. If you feel so inclined, also check us out on social media and follow us so you can see all the interesting topics that we post about. Let's dive into the. Well, hello, Jamie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Well, I wanted to get started with a little bit about your background and how you found yourself in fire and life safety. Sure. Well, I attribute my introduction to fire and life safety, um, to when I joined the volunteer fire service when I was 17, um, it was the summer between my junior and senior year of high school.

And part of what we had to do in preparing for, uh, senior year was to pick a community service project that we were gonna perform. And it just so happened that that summer I was working about a block away at a coffee house, and it was about a block away from, from a fire station. And I would see the guys go by on the trucks and on the engines and.

They would come in and we would talk and, and it really just sparked my interest. It was something that I thought was really intriguing and, um, I had always kind of grown up. uh, I guess a little bit as a tomboy, I grew up working a lot with my dad on construction sites, um, and, um, helping build our family home.

So I was always somebody that was kind of intrigued and interested in getting my hands dirty. And I thought that, you know, that would be. A great opportunity for me to pursue being a volunteer firefighter as my community service project. Um, shortly after joining, I knew that I had made the right decision.

I immediately fell in love with everything that the fire service was about. And I really became interested in pursuing a career, uh, as a firefighter, but. I knew that my parents were going to want me to go to college. And, uh, I knew that I needed to try to find a way to merge together that interest I had in fire safety and fire science in some way into a degree program.

And I was at the firehouse one day trying to figure this all out. And make those hard life decisions that we have to make in our early years. Um, as we're trying to figure out where to go with our, our lives and our careers and my deputy fire chief just happened to mention to me about a program that he had heard about at the university of Maryland.

and, uh, he said, you know, it, it sounds really cool. You get to learn about fire and fire safety, and you can even live at a firehouse if you want to, while you're going to school. And I immediately knew that that was the, my path. I knew that that was something that I wanted to pursue and find out more about.

And. Uh, started to put all of the gears in motion to go to university of Maryland and to get into the fire protection engineering program there. And that's really where my, where my career started in fire and life safety. That's awesome. That's a really neat story about how you kind of serendipitously found your way into, you know, first the fire service and then.

You know, the, one of the, I mean, most premier fire and life safety degrees in the country. I mean, what a great program to stumble into, but, uh, that's great. So yeah, I mean, that's interesting. So what did you think of your time at, um, Maryland after you, you know, kind of had some experience in the fire service.

Yeah. Like, did you have some, what classes did you think were kind of fascinating since you already did kind of have that, uh, precursor to your time in school? Yeah. Well, I mean, what I thought was the most amazing part of, of the program. Um, and, and I don't know if this process still exists now, but at the time that I was in Maryland, um, there was a program run through the state that allowed.

To do full tuition reimbursement in exchange for volunteer fire service time. So I was able to get a degree in engineering, um, in a major that I loved, uh, in exchange for doing something that I also loved, which was being a part of volunteer fire service. So when I moved to Maryland, I joined, uh, department in prince George's county.

And I did my volunteer fire service time as I was going through my degree program. And I think, you know, I, I really loved every class that I took at university of Maryland. I think there was something interesting to take away from everything we learned, but the things that probably I would say were my favorites, um, with regards to the courses that we took, there would be fire dynamics.

He transfer. I really found the laboratory class interesting, um, being able to burn things and, you know, see how the fire evolved and developed and the types of things that were being produced as the fire evolved and developed and the different types of standardized test methods that are used to assess.

Materials and their flammability, all of that, you know, I think was, was most interesting to me in the program. Awesome. Yeah. I love hearing about that. Uh, I wanted to inquire about, you know, what were some of your, you know, initial roles in fire and life safety after your time at the university of me? So I started, uh, doing internships while I was still in my bachelor's program.

It was one of the things that the university encouraged. And I think it was an incredibly valuable experience for me because it allowed me to get out there. and see what types of, of roles are available within my profession, because one of the great things about fire protection engineering is there are so many different things that you can do with your degree.

So I did, you know, design internships where I was designing fire alarm systems and sprinkler systems and doing. Life safety assessments, things that I would would categorize as more traditional fire protection engineering. And in my, towards the end of my senior year. I also did a, um, internship for, well, I was a student intern with one of the professors in the university where I was doing laboratory experiments, um, and fire testing, and using the cone.

Imeter. And that was really cool to me. I really found that to be interesting. I liked working in the laboratory environment and then I went on to do an internship at a company called combustion science and engineering. And that was where I was first introduced into fire investigation. And, uh, I, I immediately, you know, was attached to it.

I thought it was the coolest thing. Being able to go out and dissect a fire scene and put all the pieces together and use all of the various different. Aspects of what I had learned in my program in fire protection engineering, to be able to understand not only how the fire started, what caused it, um, but also what led to the loss involved in the fire, whether it be, uh, a fire death or the property loss and.

Understanding how code deficiencies or lacks a lack of fire protection systems perhaps led to the extensive amount of loss that occurred in any particular incident. Um, and that's, that's really kind of where I started my. Role in, in fire investigation. Uh, while I was working as a fire investigator full time, I went back and I did my master's degree in fire protection engineering.

And, um, I focused most of my research at that time was focused on electrically initiated fires because they were so prevalent and so common, but there was a lot left to be known and understood about. Electrically initiated fires. Um, and the fire investigation community, you know, needed more information about that.

So I focused my research in those areas. Um, and then a few years after that, I decided that I wanted to get my doctoral degree. And initially I thought I was gonna go into electrical engineering. I, I wanted to kind of mix things up a little bit. Um, play off of my fire protection engineering degrees, but do something a little bit different.

so I looked into electrical engineering. I, um, at one point I looked into mechanical engineering, which is a common, uh, doctoral degree path that fire protection engineers go. And I decided that at the end of the day, I didn't wanna do another engineering degree because I wanted to be even more diversified.

I wanted to do something even more different and, and unique. Um, One of the things that I was doing as a fire investigator was routinely investigating fire deaths and injuries and unique to the company that I was working for at the time was that they really felt it was important when we were investigating these incidents to not just look at the fire data, but to also look at the autopsy data.

and to try to connect the dots and, and understand what the victim was being exposed to within the fire. So what kinds of things we would find within their blood that was measured at autopsy? What kind of burn injuries they had to their skin and what that all meant in the context of the type of fire they were exposed to and using all of that data to better.

Understand the origin and cause of the fire. And it was that kind of work specifically that that really intrigued me and was really interesting. So I decided that I wanted to actually go and get my doctoral degree. In forensic toxicology, because I wanted to understand more about the aspects of why people were dying in fires to understand more about fire toxicity and what's being produced in the fire and how it impacts our occupants and their ability to safely escape.

And that was what led me to. Go into, um, that degree program. So I, I actually did that while I was working full time. Um, continued on to get my doctoral degree. And I was at the height of my career. Uh, at that time I, I had crafted my degree programs about, you know, around the things that I found most interesting in the fire investigation world.

And. At the same time though, I was starting to enter into a period in my life where I was thinking about having children. Um, my husband and I felt like we were ready to start that next chapter. And it really, you know, was something that I, I had to try to balance because being a fire investigator and working in forensics, we don't know when fires are going to happen.

We can't predict. When we're gonna get a call to go on and do an investigation. Sometimes we can't predict how long we're gonna be on a scene. And when we get called to trial as an expert to testify in these investigation cases, we sometimes don't know how long we're gonna be there, um, or when we're even gonna testify.

So it occurred to me that it was gonna be very challenging. To manage a highly uncertain schedule, um, and raise children. And my husband is, is a career, uh, firefighter. So he is gone for long hours. So it was something where I really had to take a hard look at where I was going in my career and how I could continue to do what I loved or some version of it, but have a more stable.

Schedule. And that was what led me to decide to take a position at national Institute of standards and technology. Um, an opportunity arose and, uh, through a good friend who had, uh, told me about an opening there. And it was not something that I, you know, had ever thought I was gonna do. I had. At that point in my career, I thought that I was going to, was gonna stay in the fire investigation profession forever.

And I had crafted all my degrees around doing so. So it was a really hard decision to decide to kind of change paths and, and change course in, in the middle of my career. Um, and. When I thought about N um, you know, in the fire protection engineering program, we learn about N we learn about the building fire research lab and all the great work that the engineering laboratory does.

And I had always thought if I ever ended up there, I would end up there as a researcher, but this position, this opportunity that I had to go there was actually working for the office of safety, health, and environ. And I would be working as a fire protection engineer, doing what I call traditional fire protection engineering, where I would be, uh, working on, uh, assisting with buildings that were being constructed and making sure they were being constructed per code and, and really kind of working more in the role.

A code official and somebody who was working to ensure that the laboratories act activities conducted in this were being done in a safe way. And it was so different than what I had ever planned to do. So when I took the position, I entered into it really feeling like. I was going to do this for my family.

I was sacrificing, uh, what I had always planned to do to, but, but that, this was what I had to do at the time. And I was very pleasantly surprised, um, at what I learned when I entered the door as a nest, because what I hadn't appreciated. Was that N is such a unique place. And the laboratory activities that are conducted at NIST on a daily basis are run the gamut of all sorts of hazards that I had never even really had familiarity with.

I had never been introduced to in my previous experience. So while I thought I was kind of entering into this mundane world, um, I very immediately realized I was, I was wrong and on a regular basis, I would get exposure to all sorts of NFPA codes that I had never even opened, never even knew existed. Um, whether it be learning about hydrogen technology or gas turbines.

Or they'll, you know, doing more NFPA 30 and 55 related work and particularly NFPA 45 laboratory safety code. These were all things that I had not had a tremendous amount of exposure to, but I became very familiar with. So I was incredibly grateful for that experience because what it allowed me to do was become.

A very well rounded fire protection engineer. I got an opportunity to experience really all aspects of my profession and realize how cool all aspects of my profession are. And they all kind of feed back into one another as well. What I was doing at N working as a fire protection engineer on the prevention side of the.

And what I did as an investigator, seeing what happens when we don't do things the right way, you know, that knowledge of understanding what happens when, when we don't do things the right way, that feeds into a better understanding of how to prevent things from happening and being on the prevention side and being familiar with the codes and compliance requirements.

Um, and working as an authority, having jurisdiction allowed me to have a, an intimate knowledge of the international building code, the international fire code, um, and a, and a whole array of NFPA codes that gave me the knowledge that I needed as a fire investigator to really understand what kind of code deficiencies might be present when I was going out to these scenes now.

I didn't completely leave fire investigation when I left, when I went to N um, because I just couldn't, my, my heart was still there. So what I was able to work out was that I still continued to have outside employment outside of N. Um, and I was still working part-time as a fire investigator, um, with the company that I had had left.

To go to N for, and it was really perfect because I kept being able to do one of the things that I really loved. Um, but it was under my terms and. It was, you know, I could take cases as I was able to, um, if it didn't work with my schedule, then it didn't work with my schedule. And then on a full-time basis, I had the stability associated with my position at nest and that was working wonderfully.

It was working great. Um, but I was working a lot of hours. . And while I had the schedule stability working, all of the hours I was working was still proving to be a little bit of a challenge for me in my personal life. And one of the things that I, that I liked to do, um, is I like to do what I call hit the pause button sometimes.

And I like to do a personal assessment. Of where I'm at in my career, in my personal life, whatever the case may be. I think it's something that everybody should do every once in a while to make sure that they're headed in the right path and they're headed down the right track because it's very easy for us to get caught up in the every day.

Minutia of what we do and to just continue doing what we do and heading down a path and a lot of times fulfilling goals that other people have set for us, but not necessarily goals that we actually set for ourselves. And, you know, I was kind of thinking one day I said, Hey, you know, I'm gonna hit the pause button and I'm gonna think about.

where I'm at in my career and where I see myself in five years, 10 years, whatever the case may be. Am I here? Am I where I'm at now in five years? Is this where I wanna be? Is this what I wanna be doing? Do I wanna be working as many hours as I'm working? And I realized the answer was no, that, that, wasn't what I wanted to do.

As much as I loved what I was doing. Um, I wanted to be able to get a little bit more control over my life and my schedule again, and to work less hours, but continue to do all of these things that I loved. Um, and that was what led me to fire talks and the company that, that I now own and, and have created.

And. The idea behind the development of that company was that I would be able to take all of these things that I loved about my profession, the traditional aspects of fire protection engineering, the research aspects, the investigation aspects, and even the training of people. And I would be able to take all of this stuff that I loved, and I would be able to have it in one place under one umbrella that I controlled.

and that was how, um, it came about to start my company fire talk, man. Well, uh, first off that's a lot to unpack and man, I really enjoyed that. And I just wanna say your work ethic is, uh, outrageous. I can't believe all the things that you've, um, accomplished all those degrees while working full. That is just incredible.

Um, and then, you know, uh, there's a lot of things that I, I really loved about, um, your career and just stuff that I'd love to dive deeper into, but yeah, I really liked what you were talking about with the laboratory fire protection and some of those different unique hazards. With your time at N uh, I think that, you know, that's one of those unique occupancies that has a lot of nuance and a lot of, uh, is not so, um, Blatant in the code on, uh, best practices and applications.

And so leaning on those more obscure NFPAs is something that I'd definitely love to hear more about from you, but yeah, also, yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of things that, a lot of good points in there, but yeah, just trying to, yeah, that wasn't, uh, very cohesive response, but wonderful. You talked about a lot of good like professional and interpersonal things as well in that, um, first question.

And so I think there's a lot of points there that I think many people would resonate with. Like, you know, the note about, um, trying to balance, um, You know, work aspirations and goals and career, you know, kind of milestones, as you know, in, along with having a family. And then, you know, just that work life balancing is so difficult.

And for somebody who has, uh, you know, had so many unique and really neat roles and fire and life safety, I, uh, yeah, that's, that's great to hear about, um, As far as like, uh, the next question I wanted to talk a little bit more about, I know you kind of gave us your introduction and kind of how you cut your teeth in and fire an investigation and, you know, uh, found your passion for it.

Um, I have a lot of interest in fire investigation cuz uh, I'm a fire protection on the design. By by my career. So yeah, I just wanted to dive a little bit deeper into, you know, this very, uh, you know, fire protection is already very niche. So I just wanted to hear a little bit more about your role as a forensic toxicologist and kind of, you know, unpack what that looks like on a daily or weekly basis, uh, from your perspective.

Okay. Do you want me to talk a little bit about fire talks as far as, you know, the role that I play as a forensic tax college there is that sure. Yeah. No, of course. I mean, I think that, uh, yeah, I mean that dovetails nicely your role at what you do at fire talks and, and yeah. What that looks like, you know, um, you could pepper it in with obviously your experience from your other roles as well.

Yeah, I'd love to hear about what you do at fire talk. And so when I started fire talk, uh, in 2017, actually slightly before then the, the original vision for the company was really just to be a mechanism to highlight my combined degrees in, in fire protection engineering and in toxicology. And we very quickly after establishing the company, we got an opportunity to do a research project.

um, and I, I started to realize that perhaps there was more to be done with the company that we could, you know, really expand it, to encompass all of these different areas that I truly loved. So the structure became one that I called tier where we provide four core service. Areas we provide training. Uh, we provide investigation, we provide engineering and we provide research services.

And one of the things that I, I firmly believe is that all of those areas feed back into one another. Um, What I have learned in the field of, of fire investigation makes me a better fire protection engineer. And that's really ultimately how it's supposed to work within our profession. We are supposed to learn.

From our history in our past, through incidents that have occurred where we've had large loss of life or large loss of property, to be able to look at those incidents and to be able to help us make better standards and better codes and better designs and systems and technologies to reduce the occurrence of those incidents.

Um, So that's, that's really what we focus on at fire talk. Our research initiatives that we, um, develop are born from what we're seeing happening in the investigation field, or they're born from what we're seeing as being challenges. In the built environment in, you know, things within the code that may not necessarily be clear or things within the code that don't address unique types of occupancies or unique conditions where the design engineer is really left with trying to figure out how to solve this problem, but not necessarily knowing whether or not they've done it the right way.

So we try to focus our research initiatives on, on those types of areas of, of the unknown within our profession. And we really believe that, um, you know, it's important to bring all of these things together and to allow us to continue to play off of these different aspects of, of investigation and, and.

Traditional fire protection, engineering and research. And we use training as a way to communicate all that knowledge to the people that are out there in the field. We train fire investigators, insurance, industry professionals, um, attorneys, even in understanding fire science and fire behavior and spread and fire toxicity is, is another big area that we provide training.

And, uh, you know, I, I find myself to, to be very fortunate, to be able to really do literally everything that I have, have, have really enjoyed over my career. Those things that I found most interesting and most passionate, and to be able to do that every day, uh, in my line of work. now, as far as the forensic toxicologist goes, um, you know, the role that, that I play in that particular, um, side of my profession is really, again, understanding why people are fi fi why people are dying and becoming injured in fires.

So there are many instances where I will work on a case and the question will be, why did this individual not get. Um, in many instances, they're operational smoke alarms and people still aren't getting out. So we look, we look at that data and we look at what's going on. Unfortunately, in some cases, the occupant may be intoxicated.

The occupant may, um, beyond certain drugs that may affect their ability to escape from the fire or may affect their ability to make appropriate decisions in the process of evacuating. Um, you know, in some cases it's issues of auditability, in some cases it's issues of system MIS design or misapplication.

So, um, that, that is part of what I focus on in the forensic toxicology world. And right now we're working on a research project, uh, through the national Institute of standards and technology that we're really excited about. Um, and it is focused on evaluating close to a thousand fire deaths that have occurred in the state of Maryland over the last 15 years.

And we're looking at why these individuals didn't get out the N F P statistics show that two out of five, uh, victims that are dying in fires are in homes with operable smoke. So our interest is understanding who those who those two out of five are and why we have people that are not getting out when we have operatable smoke alarms and whether or not it's an issue of them being part of a susceptible population.

Maybe they're part of the elderly or their children. Um, or they're, you know, hearing impaired or perhaps it's because, you know, again, they could be intoxicated, um, or there could be certain drugs in their system that is impacting their ability to awaken to an alarm or to escape. and we wanna know who those people are because at the end of the day, we, I think as fire protection, as years, we've all gotten into this profession because we want to make a fire safe world.

We want to improve on, um, fire safety. and the way that we do that is by learning from these incidents and trying to better understand what we need to do or how we need to change or improve as a profession to minimize the risk of deaths and injuries in fire. Yeah. That's fascinating. It's interesting. Uh, those statistics about the fire deaths, you know, I, it makes me wonder if, you know, there's.

Some of that ties back into the, the misconception of, you know, how much time, uh, people think that you have to get out of a burning building. I mean, I think I did definitely didn't understand before getting into the industry that, you know, how quickly a flashover occurs in modern building buildings. But yeah, that's really interesting work that you're getting into with, as far as the research is regarded.

Absolutely. So I wanted to, uh, talk about, um, your, you know, just as somebody who's kind of, uh, learning how to, to navigate, you know, um, being a professional and, you know, professional development. Um, and it sounds like you've made, um, in order to have business and all these different, um, kind of. Separate sectors, really, um, research, you know, forensics, I mean fire protection engineering.

I mean, they're related, but separate. Uh, yeah. I just wanted to ask how, if you had any advice for, um, you know, uh, networking or maintaining relationships, I mean, it sounds like you have, uh, had a really fascinated career. So I feel like you might have some insight. Sure. Um, as far as networking goes, you know, I think that one of the things that.

is most important is, is obviously staying in contact with the people that you have found to be influential in your career and the people who you respect, um, within the profession. Keeping in contact with them and understanding where they're at within their lives and their careers. And, and, you know, as we all continue to grow and develop, um, as fire protection engineers, a lot of the people that I went to school with are people that I still communicate with on a regular basis.

And. um, while we all may be kind of out there doing different things, you know, they're, as you mentioned, a lot of these things, all of those seem like they're, you know, segregated within our professions. They're very interrelated and they've really all play off of one another. So I think I've spent a lot of time continuing to stay in touch with and continuing to be involved in the professional societies that represent us.

Um, being a part of the society of fire protection engineering and staying active in what's happening, um, within our field, whether it be, you know, from code development to, um, just being somebody who's reviewing literature, that's being published to see where we're at and what is new and what are the new trends and, and where are we going in our profession?

I think, you know, if you can be a part of a, a committee, whether it be an N F B committee or otherwise, I think that is also a great way to network and a great way to be involved and to stay current in your field. It not only teaches you the process that is involved in standards development, but it connects you with the leaders.

In that, in that particular field and, and connects you with all of the great and wonderful things that those individuals are doing within our profession. And then of course, social media is a big thing. Um, linked is probably one of the biggest ways that I stay connected to the people that I've I've, you know, known throughout the years and the relationships that I've built throughout the years.

Um, you know, keeping people aware of what you're doing and where you're at and the different things that may be changing and within your career, um, it, and is important. And social media is definitely one of the biggest ways to be able to do that. Those are some great tips. I appreciate that. So I wanted to talk about on top of, um, all of your roles and, and your education that you've also seems like maintained a steady, uh, career teaching as well is, uh, you know, maintaining your involvement in fire protection, engineering and forensics.

Yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit about your different, uh, teaching roles. Sure. Um, so I've, I've done a number of different roles, um, as an educator and on a part-time basis. These were all things that I kind of did, um, while I was working full-time, but teaching was always something that I felt to be very.

Um, important to me because I love what I do. And it it's a way to allow me to communicate, you know, my passion and, and my love for my degree program and the things that I've learned within the program. But it also, I think, allows me to stay current in what's happening in my field. And to stay fresh on the things that, you know, I've learned throughout my, um, degree programs.

So I've taught for university of Maryland. Um, I taught for university college where I was a adjunct instructor, um, for the fire science program. So I taught investigation there. And I also taught mathematics as well. I I've always really loved, uh, mathematics and had a passion for that. So, um, I started out teaching there and, and I also did, um, online instruction for Eastern Kentucky university for their fire protection and safety engineering technology program.

I was a instructor for basic fire dynamics and advanced fire dynamics, as well as, uh, fire statistics class that they have. And currently I am an adjunct instructor for university of Maryland college park for their graduate program. And there I teach co-teach co-construct um, with professor, uh, hunt and professor Gwen, a class on human behavior and fire.

and there, we kind of get into evacuation modeling people movement, and also the toxicological aspects of how the fire environment impacts people. Movement impacts, um, behavioral response and impacts one's ability to escape from a fire. That's great. Yeah. I love hearing about, uh, I feel like there is, you know, um, very limited options as far as, you know, fire protection engineering degrees in the, in the states.

But so every time I get a chance to talk to somebody who has, you know, direct experience with one of these programs, I just, uh, yeah. Love hearing about it. And for the people who I'm sure are interested as well, you know, like exploring the, the topic mm-hmm but, um, yeah, I wanted to circle back on, uh, yeah, I mean, it sounds like you've been involved in your time at N and you know, now with fi with fire talk, I've had, uh, really storied careers so far.

And so I just wanted to pick your brain for if you had like, One significant case or, you know, project during your career that really stands out as a huge, uh, teachable moment or just something that was really impactful on your, uh, career. Sure. Um, well, I mean, there's been a lot of, a lot of things that I've worked on throughout the years that have really opened my eyes to.

How much more work we really have to do as a profession, um, which is, which is not a bad thing. We as fire protection engineers, you know, our, our discipline, our engineering discipline is, is really young. It's still in its infancy. I think we still have a lot of work to do. Um, but I would say, you know, from an impactful standpoint, from the standpoint of something that I did or worked on where I really truly.

Like I made a difference in someone's life. Um, it would probably be the criminal case that I worked on early on in my career. Um, and that was the a case involving a woman named Christine bunch. Uh, she had already been convicted. Of arson and murder. Uh, she was convicted of having murdered her three year old son.

This occurred back in the early mid nineties. And, um, where, when I got involved at the point that I got involved, it was actually in what was called a post-conviction. Phase, um, where she was already convicted. She was already in jail. She was convicted to six years, uh, in prison. And she was in the process of essentially appealing her conviction.

And there's a number of different reasons why the court would allow somebody to appeal their conviction. One of those reasons is newly discovered science. So, you know, when somebody is convicted and then subsequently the scientific field advances or new information becomes available that would show or prove that the, the grounds upon which someone was convicted were erroneous.

That is one potential avenue for a legitimate appeal to a conviction. So way back when in 2004, I was just starting to enter my doctoral program and I got assigned this criminal case. Um, my boss said, Hey, you know, we got contacted by this advocate, um, of this woman that's in prison. And, and they'd like us to just kind of look at the case and see what we think and determine if.

You know, there's anything about it that we might be able to help with. And I, I was, you know, still, as I mentioned, beginning my doctoral degree, I was four years into my career as an investigator. Um, and I started looking through the photographs and the pictures and, and I immediately realized, um, that there was some things about the toxicology and the autopsy data for her son that didn't align with the theory of how the fire started.

And I, I really, um, as I continue to look into this and continue to investigate. began, um, to be more and more convinced that Christine had been wrongfully convicted, um, of this crime. So, um, after working for six years on this project, I testified on her behalf and I, I think it was even maybe two years thereafter that she was then exonerated for, um, For her crimes.

And I, I wasn't the only one that testified, there were two other individuals, uh, John Dahan and Jack Mully, who also testified about some other issues in the case that involved ignitable, liquid sampling and, uh, fire dynamics and, and, you know, really kind of understanding the types of patterns that were found at the scene and why they were found.

and, you know, for me, that was probably one of the highlights of my career because it was the point at, uh, of why I got involved in this profession to begin with, was to, to, you know, not only make a fire safe world and help improve upon that goal that we all have as fire protection engineers, but to help people and.

I think that that was, um, I would say probably a highlight of my career as far, you know, as an accomplishment, I was able to take what I knew, uh, as a fire protection engineer and as a, as a student toxicologist and to put it to good use within my profession to help someone. Wow. That's an incredible story.

I mean, I can't imagine how that, um, woman must feel about being exonerated, you know, for such a heinous accusation and, uh, man, that's an incredible story. Um, Yeah, I just wanted to pick your brain a little bit about, um, some professional development topics to kinda round out the interview, although you've had some great tips throughout, um, kind of pertaining to that subject, but yeah, I just wanted to inquire, you know, for somebody like yourself, you know, what do you see as a meaningful trend in, in fire and life safety right now?

In your estimation? Sure. Well, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different things going on in fire and life safety, you know, as I mentioned, we are. We are still a young profession when, when you compare us to some of the other engineering disciplines, um, whether it be, you know, continually looking to approve upon existing technologies, smoke alarm technologies, sprinkler systems, developing smart systems that can, uh, sense fires earlier.

And minimize the amount of damage that may be caused from the suppression activities associated with extinguishing the fire. You know, I think those are all areas that will continue to be. Um, of interest to the fire protection community and also introducing, you know, new technologies completely that no one's ever really explored or thought about and, and applying those to the built environment to enhance fire safety.

Um, I think that another important thing that we, as a, as a community continue to strive to do is. You know, community risk reduction initiatives, educating people about fire and educating people about, um, being able to, you know, understand, like you mentioned how quickly fires develop, how much time they actually do have to get out.

And the fact that it is not a lot of time, um, So I think that those are some, you know, some trends that we'll continue to see, um, as being trends in our profession with regards to the fire investigation, uh, aspects of, uh, and where we are at in, in that part of the profession. you know, we, several decades ago, we were a profession that struggled to enhance and embrace the idea that the investigation of sci of, of invest the investigation of fire.

Sorry, was a scientific process. We really. Many investigators struggled to embrace that, that concept. Um, it was really believed several decades ago that investigation of fire was an art, not a science and what we've done over these last several decades, um, within, you know, the fire protection engineering community is we've really tried to make sure that people understand.

That the investigation of fires is a scientific process. It is one that involves an understanding of physics and chemistry and fire dynamics and heat transfer. And because of that, we need to make sure that our investigators are trained properly in those areas, um, are knowledgeable. That we have solid research that we can rely on to allow us to better understand the types of patterns that we see within fires and what's causing those patterns.

We were decades ago, a profession that relied heavily on rules of thumb, and we relied heavily on. Things, um, that weren't necessarily always true or had no scientific basis. So what we've done is we've continued to try to improve. And I think we now finally see a shift where we embrace the investigation of fire as being a scientific process, and we embrace the idea.

That the scientific method is, is the methodology to use in the investigation of fire. And we continue to see more research initiatives being supported by, you know, institutions like the national Institute of justice to help further along what we, uh, understand within the fire investigation community, whether it be about fire patterns or flash over, um, Or even forensic toxicology, um, and fire toxicity.

So I think those are some of the trends, at least that I'm seeing on my side, um, of the fence. And, and I think they're all very important and very valuable. And I, and I believe that they will lead to a more robust, um, way that we address fire safety in the United. That's awesome. Yeah, it's really interesting, uh, hearing about, uh, fire and investigation.

It's, uh, really complex and it's kind of a wonder to me that the range of individuals that are involved with the. With the profession. So, yeah, it's really interesting to hear you talk about the, uh, trend towards scientific, uh, basis and evaluation. So that's awesome. Anyways, I wanted to end with, um, in your mind, what resources would you recommend to professionals?

You know, I asked this topic and it's broad, but you know, You know what it could be, anything from where you like to get your information or, you know, uh, web tools or anything that you might think would be useful for people who are in fire and life safety. Sure. Um, well, you know, I mentioned staying current with, uh, the profession and, and the ways in which I think we do that are.

Are being a part of what's going on and being a part of NFPA committees or S F P committees. Um, so that we are integrated into. The, the processes that go along with standards, development, and practices and policies that are used within our field. So we had a little audio trouble at the end of the interview, but I just want to give a huge thank you to Jamie for coming on the podcast.

So, if you enjoyed what you heard about Jamie's career, or you want to find out more about her or fire talks, you can, uh, check the show notes or you can go to fire talks.com. I'm gonna be throwing some links in there for how you can get ahold of Jamie, but yeah, really appreciate her coming on the show and we'll see you next time on fire code tech.

Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

We are back with our second solocast and on this episode we are diving into how codes and standards function. This is one of the most quintessential functions of working in fire and life safety, so I wanted to have this as one of the earliest topics. What are model codes and standards? How are they adopted? Where do you go to find them? I discuss all these and much more in the episode.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about like specific technologies, installation standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview.

Hello, all welcome to episode two of the solo cast with GU GA. I'm your host of fire code tech, and I'm going to start releasing these solo podcasts in order to supplement the already interesting interviews with the amazing professionals that we have had going for almost a year. Now, if you enjoy these episodes, don't forget to go to patreon.com/fire code tech.

You can get two additional solo casts a month for the price of a cup of coffee. In this episode, I want to talk to you all about the codes and standards, and just really take an overview of the codes and standards process in the United States and, uh, and globally as well. And so, yeah, this is a topic.

That I'm endlessly fascinated with. I think it's one of the fundamentals of how fire and life safety works for many jobs. Yeah. I think it's a good basis for any discussion to have a good knowledge of what is the codes and standards process, where you live. And, uh, or where you're working in, uh, more importantly.

And so I just wanted to explore how this works. It's a frequently asked questions or a frequently misunderstood topic, how this works. Um, you know, and I just. Want to have this as one of the earliest episodes, really, it should have been episode one, but, uh, as how these processes work in order to, um, have the basis or fundamentals for the rest of our discussions, don't forget to subscribe to fire code tech, wherever you get your podcasts.

Also, as a primer, we've started to release all of our content on YouTube and I'm doing my best to cut clips so that. People can get a taste of, uh, the most interesting portions of the episodes and I'll link back to the full link episodes, but you can find it there as well and follow us on social media, working on, uh, adding posts and, and resources and sharing things in order to keep you informed.

Keep a good finger on the pulse. So codes and standards, I think is a good preface for codes and standards. Um, this is, uh, through the lens of a construction professional. In the us and somebody who works in design. Um, so the way codes and standards work in the us is we have model codes, model codes are developed by an institution known as the ICC or the international code council.

Uh, so there's the building code, the international building code international mechanical code residential code. Um, it, it goes on there's even more plumbing code. And so having a frame of reference for how these different codes play together and, um, you know, how they reference other standards and criteria.

So that's kind of what I want to talk about today. And so as a baseline, uh, a code is adopted by. Certain jurisdiction. So I'll take for instance, uh, Oklahoma, since that's where I'm from. So I can speak with greater authority on the subject. But so if you look at the state of Oklahoma, it adopts the 2015, um, international family of codes.

So there's, there's different adoptions for pieces. And so 2015 international building code. Is what's adopted. So why is this important? Well, the code is what prescribes, what is enforceable by law? So the code is, uh, what you have to do and when you have to do it. So, uh, if you're looking for the overarching, when do I need a certain system, or if you are looking for how to know.

You know, specifics on building components, if you need them or not. The building code is where you're gonna start. I, um, when I've had the, the chance to, uh, mentor or instruct people in, um, you know, finding their way in engineering or in the process, I try to always make sure that there is a sound.

fundamental understanding of how codes and standards work. So, uh, for instance, sprinkler systems, you know, how do you know if you need a sprinkler system is probably the number one biggest, uh, question. I would say if somebody says, oh, we have sprinklers on this project, you know, I would. Council, uh, young fire protection designer or, you know, to ask the question or, or sprinklers code required.

You know, I mean obviously if the, if the building is of significant scale, there is a good chance that they are required, but it's good to do the research for yourself and understand. So, um, you know, that would be in chapter nine is where a lot of the different, uh, fire protection. Uh, chapters are so sprinklers is 9 0 3.

Fire alarm is 9 0 7. But so these different, um, pre-qualifies for when these systems are required are in the building code. So this is where you should start. And so. As a, just, this is one reason why codes and standards are so important for the first to say it again, it's, what's required by law. Secondly, it tells you when you need other building and system components and, uh, as a fire protection engineer, it is at the basis of, um, pretty much everything we do is something required by code.

Of course, there are other reason. In which you could need a sprinkler system that wouldn't have anything to do with the, the code requirement. You know, you could, but I'll save that for another episode. So codes and standards, um, above and beyond, uh, the. The model codes and their adoptions, you can look at.

Um, so let's talk about the standards piece. So how do you know when a standard is applicable? You know, uh, say you are looking at a sprinkler system and, and you are interested in, in knowing which version of NFPA 13 to, to design the sprinkler system towards, well, there are different, uh, there's a couple different ways you could find that.

but, uh, one I, I would invite you to go take a look at and explore is, um, first of all, first and foremost, find the version of the building code that's adopted. And then I, in the building code, there is a section called reference reference standards. And so it will list, uh, individual, um, NFPA documents. And what year is adopted?

In corollary to the year of the building code that's adopted. So if you go to the 2015 building code and you go to the reference standard chapter, and then you take a look at, uh, N FPA 13, you'll see that the 2013 version of NFPA 13 is adopted in the 2015, uh, international building code. So these are some of the most important.

uh, things to document and to understand at the, uh, incipient stages of the project, if you don't have an understanding in what the codes and standards are, you are getting on the wrong foot from the very, very beginning of your project. You know, if you don't establish these criteria, uh, you're your, I don't know, it's your approach is all wrong.

Um, you need to establish. What is the, what is the code requirements so that you can even begin to move forward? So that's kind of why, uh, I think this subject is so important. Because I see I've seen, um, designers in the early stages and, and I've been up guilty of it myself. Um, a project manager comes to you and, and asks you, you know, or somebody comes to you and, and asks you to design this building needs a sprinkler system or a fire alarm system.

And if you don't base your. Understanding of a project and the codes and standards. Um, you won't be able to fully analyze a building and really understand what truly is required. So, you know, somebody comes to you and says, this building needs to be sprinkled. And so you just, if you would take that on just their word and not do the research for yourself, you could not realize.

You know, oh, maybe this building doesn't require a sprinkler system or, oh, maybe this building not only needs a sprinkler system, but it needs the stand pipe system. And you know, so you can, uh, if you don't have good basis and codes and standards, you can miss things that are, uh, extremely important. So you need to have this rock solid foundation.

Uh, the codes and standards and how they work. So another thing I wanted just talk about was, uh, amendments, local amendments. So what's really important on top of the adopted codes and standards is, uh, local amendments. And so your jurisdiction, um, let's say take Oklahoma city, for example, um, Oklahoma.

Adopts the 2015 international building code. And then they append the international building code with, um, additional information, uh, permitting information, Infor criteria that they've changed. Um, take for example. Uh, you know, they might modify the language that describes the international existing building code and what the different alteration levels and the, uh, how those different scopes of the work pan out for.

Different projects. So, you know, not only is it paramount importance to understand the model codes that are adopted, but also you have to be extremely diligent about jurisdictional preferences. So if you take a look, um, jurisdictions may have, you know, Other portions of the code in which they are saying, we have modified these requirements.

You know, the fire department needs these threads, or we don't recognize this section of the international residential code. And, uh, these are almost, these are, uh, oftentimes, uh, as important or more important than. Um, what, uh, building code you're looking at, because if you just designed to the vanilla building code and you are not taking a look at, um, your local jurisdictional requirements, you are gonna get in, um, into trouble because there are so many different regional requirements.

Of course, some regions are more strict or less strict depending on where you're working. And so it's really important to know. Um, okay. So let's talk about how you would find out these different things. How would you find out where your, um, what your jurisdiction adopts for the, for the building codes? So if I was going to look up in a different state or a different county, um, I would take a look at, I would Google, you know, Oklahoma state building code adoptions.

So I would Google that and oftentimes the government or the jurisdiction will have that in what they require and what their adopted building code is. So that would be my first state. And then as far as. Local amendments there's, uh, it, of course it's a little different in every state, but in Oklahoma you can search.

Um, I was just looking at this information recently, but you can, um, it's all listed on the government website and you can go take a look at their list of addenda to the international building. Yeah, another good topic is where can you find the building code? You know, if you're hearing this and you're like, okay, well, everything is based on the building code, but how do I get to, you know, the building code or the correct building code and start navigating these codes?

Well, you can start at the, the company who generates these. Different, uh, building codes. Um, they have all their codes available on their website and you can navigate there and I can throw a link down to their website, or you can go to, um, I believe they just launched a new service recently for, uh, navigating the building codes online.

Or you could go to a company like, uh, up codes who has, um, the. Different local adoptions of the building code and they're, uh, easily readable and you can go check it out there. So, yeah, so you can find the building codes there and you can navigate which one you need. Um, it's worth talking about the overall layout of the building code.

So the building code is, is very similar to different NFPA standards in that they start out with, um, different business or citation materials, some definitions, and they start, uh, very broad the standards for NFPA documents for. Model building codes. They kind of all function in a similar way. They start out very broad and like talking very largely about the building.

And then as you proceed throughout the book, they get more specific. And then, um, each of these books usually end with some, uh, appendixes or some explanatory inform. As well as some more references and, uh, usually the index or how you can also navigate. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes in standards. Interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved. Fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

Rob is a professor at Oklahoma State University in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program.  Rob has a PHD in environmental sciences, a master’s in industrial hygiene and a undergraduate degree from OSU in fire protection and safety technology. In this episode of Fire Code Tech we get into Rob’s professional career in environmental health and safety as well as his time at Oklahoma State University. There is a ton of great information for professional development as well as exposition on where the program has been and where it is going.

Would you speak about your genesis in fire and life safety? 2:36

Can you touch on a couple of the different roles you had early in your career?  6:18

What was some of the roles that you enjoyed when you attended college at OSU in FPST? 10:01

What does the role of an environment health and safety specialist look like? 12:16

Why would a employer or a employee want to invest in a CIH professional? 16:27

Is there a story about your career that you would share? 22:03

What is the fire protection program at OSU for those who do not know? 29:47

What is an overview of the coursework at the OSU FPSET program? 35:15

How has the program changed since you started your time at OSU? 42:15

What career advice do you have for professionals? 50:28

Where do you like to get professional information? 53:08

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Hello, all welcome to episode 24 of fire code tech. In this episode, we have Robert Agnew. Rob has a PhD in environmental sciences, as well as a master's degree in industrial hygiene. We also get into Rob's time at Oklahoma state as a student. In this episode, we talk about Rob's fascinating career with his origins in fire and life safety.

We get into Rob's roles in environmental health and safety, and some of the interesting project work he's been a part of Rob tells us all about the program at Oklahoma state. More specifically, the fire protection and safety engineering and technology program. We get into Rob's history with the program there as a student, as well as what O U's F P S C T program is doing today.

And moving forward, we get into some really great tips for professionals, as well as where Rob sees the industry going. And some topics that are new or emerging for professionals really enjoyed this episode. It was one of my bucket list episodes to be able to talk to one of my great professors from OSU.

From my time there as a student, they were hugely influential for, um, what I'm doing today. If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and give us a review on iTunes. Let's get into the show. Well, Rob, welcome to the podcast. I can't tell you how much, uh, I'm excited about having one of my, um, former professors at Oklahoma state.

Um, come talk to me on the show. It's uh, it's a real dream. Well, great. Well thank you. You're you're too kind. It's great to be. Awesome. So I just wanted to, um, start out in traditional fashion and ask you about your Genesis and fire and life safety and kind of how you found your way into it. Sure. Uh, it started all the way back in high school and maybe even a little before, uh, doing, taking CPR classes, uh, you know, junior lifeguard though.

I never was a junior lifeguard. I started taking the, the classes for it. My mom was a nurse and kind of just had a inkling towards taking care of others. And, uh, my best friend from all of grade school joined, uh, the county search and rescue team. It was a wilderness, uh, you know, search and rescue team.

And we were part of a Explorer post attached to the Sheriff's department. And I spent all four years in high school, uh, on the search and rescue team, you know, back back when we had pagers, uh, you know, the old Motorola Bravos, uh, we get called out and go and search for lost hikers, or sometimes we'd assist in evident searches.

Uh, unfortunately we, we had body recoveries. Uh, we went on and that really got me into, uh, this whole, you know, service of, of community and others. It encouraged me to take my. EMT my emergency medical technician. So I did that as, as actually I started the class before I even turned 18, but I finished, uh, after I turned 18.

So I, I had my EMT and did my ride alongs, uh, those sorts of things. And, and all along, I was kind of interested in fire. We worked several wildfires with county fire, uh, supporting county fire. Um, I got to, you know, help coordinate, uh, helicopter activities and manage radio, uh, channel allocations, working at a command post.

I've been using ICS and wildfires since, uh, the early nineties. So that was great. It really just got me into this. And so then it was, well, what am I gonna do? Uh, I kind of thought maybe I'd go fire academy. Um, again, my mother was like, uh, want you to want you to look at college too? And so I started asking around and everybody kept saying, you gotta check out Oklahoma state.

I got this great fire program. And so I went to the library. This is, you know, very much the Dawn of the internet at that time, went to the library, found some information, um, you know, made some, made some requests for info and decided to come out and take a tour. And at that time classes were in station two, the campus fire station, and, uh, just absolutely fell in love with it.

In fact, I didn't apply to any other college except OSU. Um, you know, coming from California was a 1500 mile move. Uh, but I did it and never looked back, man. That's incredible that you had such an early start with, uh, life safety and just, um, EMS and kind of getting a feel for what it looks like to be involved with, uh, fire and life safety.

That's, that's pretty incredible that you, that you found your origin and it so early. I think you're one of the few I've talked to that has a. A, uh, beginning of their career that resembles that. Yeah. I, I think, uh, I think the folks I went to high school with would, uh, would say, I, I definitely found the, the path that certainly matched my interest from, from that age.

That's good. That's good. You found your passion early. I, I see a lot of people struggle with that. So I wanted to follow up on that line of conversation with, you know, just a little bit more about your first professional roles and kind of what those looked like, uh, as your career or progressed. Yeah, Uhhuh , uh, one of my, my first, I guess, jobs in the profession, I, it was kind of a, an internship with, uh, the OU health science center.

Which I was still just wrapping up, uh, my undergrad at OSU and was starting to feel the pull towards the industrial hygiene arena. Uh, I, I had performed a, uh, waste anesthetic gas exposure assessment at OU as part of my, um, one of my industrial hygiene projects for class. And from there, I, I got an internship and would spend, uh, winter break and spring break and sometimes the odd weekend and parts of summer at the health science center, doing all kinds of stuff.

And that's where I first kind of got in exposed to the environmental side and waste management. Uh it's you know, being a, you know, 20 or 21 year old and getting called to the animal research facility for a waste pickup. And I, I walk in the door and I'm here for the waste pickup. I go it's over there in the freezer.

And so I opened the freezer and, and sitting in there, our. For animal carcasses. And I looked to the lab manager and I are those baboons. He goes, yep. oh my gosh. Yeah. That's incredible. That sounds like something that would throw any, um, yeah. Anybody for a loop. I was about to put the qualifier in there for a student, but no, I think anybody would be.

Yeah. And so I asked her, I said, well, what did you do to 'em? Well, we infected them with a virus and then we tried to kill it with radiation and it didn't work. Wow. And so, so yeah, I had a biohazardous radioactive waste to try to figure out how to dispose of, and I found one incinerator in the country that could accept that waste stream.

Oh, my gosh. So from the very, you know, early on in your career, you were tasked with, um, getting creative and solving some interesting, uh, health and safety problems. Yeah, absolutely. And, and right after that, my, my first, I guess, career jobs with, uh, Seagate, uh, hard drive manufacturer, and we built a facility in Mexico and we had a, you know, a series of small fires and we could never get the fire department to respond.

Um, you know, they had one station for a town of 300,000 people. Uh, and so if we were a bit down the list, so we had to go down there and build our own fire brigade. Um, and so trying to learn how to communicate. I, you know, I spoke a little bit of Spanish from, from my upbringing in, in California, but trying to go down there and, and coordinate and train and build a fire brigade, uh, down there and work with, uh, fire prevention laws in, in Mexico or the noms, uh, which are, um, Not not exactly what they are here in the us, but they're based on it.

Um, but trying to translate them, you try to, you know, put an American bent on it and you're not even sure if that's right. And so there's a lot of challenges there early on, uh, with trying to, to work internationally, uh, on fire prevention issues as well. That's fascinating. I always have a real interest in how, you know, model codes and standards work outside the us.

So yeah, there are multiple points there. Uh, I, uh, wanted to ask, I realized after you got started into your professional roles a little bit, you know, so it sounds like industrial hygiene and some of these more safety focused classes was kind of what, um, spoke to you when you at your, when you were attending OSU.

But yeah, I just wanted to ask, um, you know, what was some of your favorite parts of your experience when you attended OSU in the F P S T program? Yeah. You know, that was, it's an interesting transition, you know, I went from. Really thinking I wanted to be a firefighter coming here, looking at, at the really, I was very focused on the fire side, which even today, a lot of our students come here and like, you know, fire is, is on the, the forefront of their mind.

And then, then you start taking some of these safety and occupational health classes, you know? Wow, this is, this is a whole nother world I didn't know about. Um, and for me it was, uh, professor Jim Hanson. He's retired now. We're still friends, but he taught industrial hygiene. And boy, he was just a, an exciting, energetic teacher.

He got, got me excited about it. And one of the assignments he had us do was that, that one where you had to go find a real exposure in a real business and go and measure the worker exposure and write a report and take it to management and say, you know, here's, here's the results. And you know, that that working with, with people, uh, I really liked, uh, you know, Not not to discredit those that, that work on the engineering side, cuz God bless 'em they do a great job and, and I appreciate everything they do.

But for me personally, working on design, um, didn't, didn't appeal to me, um, working with people, you know, that hands on talking to them, trying to help them with, uh, you know, their, their health and their long term, you know, health outcomes, uh, really resonated with me. And so that, that's just kind of, uh, how it changed and evolved.

At least my outlook on, on what I wanted to do while I was here at OSU. Wow. I like that answer interested in, it seems like you're always interested in the challenge and interested in the, the human aspect of that challenge as well. So certainly that's interesting. But, um, so I wanted to, you know, move on and mm-hmm, talk about, uh, the, you know, the majority of your career in industry was.

As that environmental health and safety professional in, um, different gradients of that role. But yeah, always when I get professionals on the show and it's a, you know, kind of a career that I haven't explored yet, I like to get a sense of, you know, from somebody who's done it. Um, what that looks like. So mm-hmm yeah.

I'd love to hear about that. Yeah. So, so the most of my career was actually with, uh, with Raytheon company, um, you know, started out as a environmental health and safety engineer became a manager, worked my way up eventually, uh, to a, a senior manager, um, with big section of a business unit, multiple facilities, managing comprehensive environmental health safety asset protections is what we call the, the fire prevention side of things.

And all of those things deal with administrative law in, in one way or the other, either the, the OSHA standards, the EPA regulations, the fire code, and. My kind of elevator speech, you know, if the, you know, the CEO bumps into you and the elevator says, you know, what the heck do you do? I always like to say that that the environmental health and safety department maintains the company's right to do business.

Because if we, if we don't do our job, if we hurt people or we pollute the environment, or we burn the building down, uh, we're not in business anymore. And you know, this is kind of this, you, you have a foot in, in both sides on the, on the one side, you're very much a representative of the company. And again, defending its right to do business, you know, keeping the doors open on the other side, you're also the advocate for the employee, you know, protecting their health, protecting their safety, you know, convincing management that wearing a respirator all day is terrible.

And I think that may be the, the. Very small silver lining of, of, uh, the COVID 19 pandemic is that, uh, every manager in business, uh, in the entire globe now knows that wearing something on your face, uh, all day is terrible. Um, and so hopefully we can get more engineering controls and ventilation controls rather than putting everybody in, in respirators.

Um, and so that's kind of that rule. It's just that protecting worker health and safety and protecting the company's right to do. Yeah, I, you know, I, I have a friend who works in, uh, for a company that's, uh, in a mining operations and he's an environmental health and safety expert. And, you know, to your point about maintaining the company's right to do business, you know, he's unfortunately had to deal with, um, the costly implications of a, a business, you know, that, that has had safety in incidents.

Mm-hmm , I mean, it's, uh, it sounds like a, a nightmares scenario that he's had to, you know, go through with, um, you know, uh, injuries on the job, you know, um, being investigated by OSHA and or IHA and some of these other things that have happened. So yeah, I think that, uh, that's a great point. Yeah. Kind of the, the, the new kind of buzzword, or I guess that's a term really, uh, you're hearing now is social license to operate, um, that if, if your community.

That your business is in, you know, if you're polluting it's water or it's air, uh, the community will, will no longer tolerate your business. Um, and so it's being called social license to operate, same thing we're seeing with, you know, conflict minerals, uh, and those sorts of, of things that it's kind of started to expand the scope of EHS, uh, a bit looking at some of these supply chain issues, uh, how they impact, uh, human health and safety.

And then how, again, how that ties back to the company's right. To do business with social license to operate. Yeah. I mean, that sounds like, uh, it's indirectly in the vein of, you know, what we see in a more of the, the social or the like, uh, individual side of the, the news and the media with, you know, people getting canceled.

I could see that, you know, um, kind of having to overlap, overlap with the, you know, companies being canceled for not maintaining this, uh, mm-hmm social capital that is, um, doing business in ethical way. Mm-hmm absolutely. But so, yeah, also, um, in the vein of, of your career in, you know, things that I've never had the opportunity to ask a professional, um, I wanted to talk to you about your, um, industrial hygienist certification and what that looks like and why you would want to have a, um, certified industrial hygienist, um, designation.

Sure. Okay. Answer that general then specific that the general is just professional credentialing in general. I'm a big fan of particularly for early career professionals. You know, it's, if it's the C I H or the CSP, or, you know, the PE or the, or the FPE, you know, in our field, uh, what that, that says to, you know, employers, what it says to, uh, the employees that you may may be interacting with is that, you know, Hey, this, this person by.

Education examination and experience, uh, has, you know, the ability to, to perform this task. Um, so it, it's kind of a, a warranty in some respects that, that the person who holds these different credentials, you know, has obviously had education in the field, has taken an exam to show that they've retained it.

And they all have minimum professional years of experience requirements. And so while it's not a, you know, silver bullet, this person knows what they're doing. Uh, but it certainly adds a level of credibility, uh, to your knowledge skillset. Now, the, the C uh, in particular, why would you want to have, uh, somebody with that background, uh, is really looking into these more complex, um, issues of.

Occupational exposure. Um, when I was, when I was working at Raytheon at, at the time, Ken Tierney was the head of the, of the, of the entire global EHS group. And, and he said that the CS, uh, that worked for him, uh, were the special forces of EHS. Um, which, you know, when you're dealing with radiation, either ionizing or non-ionizing, you're dealing with, how do you measure silica exposure in the microgram range or barium?

Uh, these sorts of things requires a very specialized, uh, skill set. Uh, and that's when you wanna bring in, uh, a certified hygienist, you know, the complexities of mold sampling, uh, and if, if we even should do mold sampling, all these sorts of things, uh, that's where you're gonna wanna bring in somebody, uh, with a C H wow.

That's a absolutely fabulous. Exposition on, uh, why you would want to have a professional designation as well as you know, um, more specific commentary on, um, the certified industrial hygienist, uh, role, the next thing that's kind of coming, um, Or we should talk about the PE you know, for those, those in your audience are very familiar with the PE and the fire protect engineer.

You know, that's not a certification that's licensure, which is kind of that next level. You know, that the, the licensure says, uh, there's an element of the public trust that's being placed upon you and your work, you know, that, that you have to calculate, uh, you know, with the classic one, the bridge, the bridge doesn't collapse, you know, from the civil side, but you know, same thing with fire protection engineer, you're gonna design the systems correctly to get the smoke out of the building, to get the adequate water supply, where it needs to, uh, to protect the public's, you know, safety in their life.

And, uh, there's a big push within the industrial hygiene community. To move the C into licensure, uh, because you are dealing with, with health, just like you're dealing with the nursing professions, uh, all these other medical professions that the C uh, there's a push to move towards licensure because of that public trust element.

Uh, when we're out there evaluating, you know, the asbestos in your home or asbestos in your school or business, uh, that there is a public trust that needs to be maintained with that particular skill set. That's a great note. Yeah, I see that. Um, I see that a lot of communities are moving towards, you know, um, pleasant requirements.

And so, yeah, I think that as far as, uh, fire and life safety goes, it, it seems like, um, that people are more interested. Um, as time goes on in, in buying in on professionals who are, you know, accredited. because of, you know, I just think there's greater focus on safety. Mm-hmm in society as we're, you know, moving on.

Yeah. The, I mean, the, the thing about licensure is it kind of goes back to that community and that social licensed operate it's the, the community can remove your ability to work, you know, to, to be able to, to do what you've been trained to do that. Uh, if you're not living up to their standards of either ethics or competence, uh, the community can remove your ability to, to work, um, which really adds to that next level.

And, and really, you know, you, you have to be competent and check your work and, and make sure you get it right. Yeah, I think that's a great thing. And, uh, you know, I always encourage people and that's kind of the reason why I ask the question is I want to encourage people to seek these, um, not only for their professional development, but also, you know, to ensure that we have qualified competent individuals doing this sort of work.

Um, but yeah. So in order to, you know, kind of put a incap on our discussion of your, you know, the incipients of your professional career and some of those roles, I just wanted to ask, I can remember quite a few, um, different, interesting stories that you told about your time at Raytheon and some of your other roles mm-hmm um, in environmental health and safety.

And I just wanted to know if you had a particular, uh, project or a story about, uh, um, just to time in your career that you would wanna share. Sure. I, I think you look at challenges, you know, what were those challenges that you overcame and, and you can, you know, when you get through it, you do kind of a touchdown dance.

And, uh, for me, working with Raytheon, being in, uh, doing like a lot of aircraft, um, type electronics, aircraft parts, um, and anything in military corrosion is a huge issue. You know, you, you don't want your, uh, electronics or your weapon systems or anything like that, you know, corroding as they're, you know, getting salt spray on them from a, you know, while it's sitting on an aircraft carrier or sand and dust, uh, out in the desert.

And so to prevent that the, the, basically the gold standard technology is to apply various processes that use hexvalent chromium, uh, as a corrosion inhibitor on, uh, particularly aluminum. Uh, the issue is that the, the one that works the best Tron chromate, uh, and all CHRO mates in general are carcinogenic and Tron chromate is particularly strong, uh, carcinogen.

And so, uh, there's this again, this ongoing issue. Well, how do we paint these, these parts and put it on and protect the workers that are doing that. But then also when these things go into the field and they need repair work, and someone has to sand the paint off that they're getting exposed to these ch mates.

And so there's been a big push, both within OSHA and within the D O D to remove hexvalent chromium, uh, from these product lines. Um, or if you can't remove it, then you have to implement some, some incredibly, um, expensive engineering controls to protect the. And so I worked on a project to try to remove, uh, hexavalent chromium from a particular product line, uh, that we had, um, well in advance of when, uh, the regulations were changing.

Um, and, and it was a great thing from both a business perspective and a health perspective, because basically when, when the re legislation came out from OSHA and changed the exposure limit, uh, dramatically, uh, you, you kind of had a couple choices. You could either spend all the money and come into compliance, or you could stop doing, uh, producing your part.

And if it caught you off guard, then, you know, while you retooled, you were gonna lose market share. And so I worked with our engineers. There are our product development engineers to qualify alternative primers, uh, for corrosion inhibition. And so testing lots of different primers with different manufacturers, putting them in, in salt fog, baths, and proving into our DOD customers that they worked and proving to our management.

It was gonna work and implemented the change before the OSHA regulation changed. And so when that happened, our business never stopped. We just, we just kept running. We didn't have to install showers and change facilities. We didn't have to install massive ventilation systems and airline respirators. Uh, you know, we we'd done the, the hard work, uh, ahead of.

And so we were able to switch that product line over to a chromate, uh, a trivalent chromium, uh, much less, uh, toxic and keep the business up and running with no, no disruption in, uh, production. And so that was just one of those ones that I really, really liked, um, for my career. It was hands on. It was just, this was back when I was, you know, an engineer before I was a, a manager.

And you kind of, you kind of miss that when you, when you get into to management, you tend to do a whole lot more politicing and paper pushing than actually solving problems. Uh, and so that was, was one of the, the last real nitty gritty problems. I got my hands dirty on and, and was able to fix. And I really enjoyed that.

That's awesome. It's so hard as, uh, you know, safety professionals to, um, tie back into. The, uh, dollar amount of, you know, conducting business. Mm-hmm , I think that that's a great success story on, you know, how you provided value to the company and how you mitigated business interruption and, um, what, uh, somebody who excels at their role can do, I wanted to transition into your, um, time at, at OSU.

And I know from experience that you have, um, that you're, you know, a good order and that you're, you know, good at explaining things and, and that you have passion for it, but how did you find that out? So it's, it's kind of an interesting story. Um, and several, several years before, before I even really started thinking about it, uh, I had, you know, colleagues, um, not necessarily within, in the EHS department, uh, at great, but in, in the facilities department and other these groups that I worked with that, you know, Trying to explain, well, why are we doing this?

Why, why are we changing out all this Hexa chromium stuff? And, and, you know, so I go through an explanation and, uh, I ended up getting the nickname, professor wizard and people kept telling me, you, you know, you should, you should be a professor. Uh, and it just kept coming up. You know, I, I worked at different sites.

I moved around the country and just kept, you know, Hey, you should be a professor. And, uh, it was, it was one of those things. It was kind of the back of mind, you know, I, I do kind of like teaching. I mean, I obviously did a lot of training as a EHS professionally. You have to do a lot of training up in front of people and talking.

And, um, I enjoyed it. I also enjoy the, the aspect of being a professor where you do research, right? You ask questions and you try to solve these problems again, kind of getting back to being an engineer and not just a manager and. The two things kind of coincided together. One, uh, the amount of travel I was starting to do was getting, uh, ridiculous.

um, you know, when, when my son turned two years old, I had spent a quarter of his life in Australia and not even counting all my other business travel and it, so that was just starting to wear on me. It's like, gosh, you know, I kind of kind of wanna be home a bit more. Sure. And, uh, you know, I knew, uh, Dr.

Laga who was the, uh, department head at the time he's former department head, uh, of the fire picture program. He's also a C we knew each other from, from conference and, uh, things like that. And he called me up one day and said, Hey, I kind of hear you, you, you might be interested in being a professor. And I said, well, yeah, I kind of am.

I said, well, why don't you apply for the job and come to interview? And so I did, I guess, as they say, the rest is history, so nice, you know, gave up the, the corporate life and, uh, came up here to. To be an educator and a researcher and it's been fantastic. That's awesome. Yeah. I think it takes a special kind of person to, you know, I found this out of my professional career, um, you know, being an entry level professional that, you know, uh, the role of mentorship and, uh, somebody who wants to take the time to teach somebody is not innate.

And so I think it takes a special kind of person to want to be a mentor and also, you know, an even more, uh, extreme as, uh, somebody who wants to, you know, be a professor and really make that their, their livelihood. So, yeah. That's fascinating. Thank you. So, yeah, so I'm extremely excited to talk to you about, you know, just for those who don't know, um, what is the, um, fire protection degree at OSU?

Um, you know, what, yeah, what kind of does that entail? For somebody who might be looking to, you know, get higher education in the field of fire and life safety. Okay. Well, the, the program itself is, um, been around a while. It's actually the, the oldest, uh, fire protection program in north America. Um, the, the program itself started in 1937, though, kind of the, the beginnings of, of OSU involvement in fire and, and safety go back to the early thirties and started out as a, as a two year degree, kind of started training training firefighters, but really it was started to, uh, out of insurance and, and people wanting, uh, insurance, wanting some, some unified tactics for fire suppression.

And, you know, how do we coordinate some of these things for people coming from different places to, to fight fire, and then it kind of. Had a little metamorphosis from the insurance side to, Hey, how, instead of just being really good at putting out fire, uh, how do we prevent it? And so the, the program kind of took on that change that really started moving towards the fire prevention, what we think of now as fire protection engineering.

Uh, and it did that for many years, um, until, um, the early seventies, uh, when the OSHA act was passed. And, um, you know, some, some leaders in the program had some, some foresight and said, you know, this is, this is the next thing. And it's important and we should, we should adapt to it. And at that point, uh, a four year degree, um, was put in place and it blended, uh, both fire protection and safety.

And so when you look at the name, uh, a lot of people just shorten it to fire protection, but you know, it's fire protection and safety engineering technology. And so it blends both which. In some ways people go, well, why wouldn't you wanna just be, you know, really good at one thing. And I, I think what we see is that the, the diversity of these two are very complimentary that in all cases, if you are dealing with fire, you're gonna be dealing with safety and, and vice versa.

Now your, your particular roles may be different. You know, like for me, my fire background or what I, I did industry for fire was from a owner's perspective. How do we maintain systems? How do we inspect them? You know, making sure they're installed, you know, correctly and affordably and all that versus doing the design side, uh, flip that around, you know, if you look at like Dr.

Charter who's here, she was on the fire engineering side, but when you're out doing, um, Qualifications, you know, when you, when you install the system and you're out doing the, the acceptance testing and stuff, you know, there's lots of safety aspects have to be taken care of. There's people up on, on ladders.

You can get, uh, Legionella inside the, the water of the sprinkler pipes you're need to do smoke, dispersion calculations and things like that. Uh, you end up doing a, a real blend of fire and safety. When you're looking at your, uh, hazardous materials, inventory statements, you know, you have to know where all the chemicals in your facility are, what are all those hazard, uh, categories, sum them all up, figure out occupancy limits, all these sorts of things for the fire code.

And then you turn around and EPA wants to know all of those for your toxic release inventory and for your tier two. And, uh, and those sorts of things. So it doesn't matter which career you pick as your emphasis. You're gonna be doing a, a lot of crossover into both. And so I think that's the real.

Advantage of this degree versus a pure safety degree or a pure fire degree, is that diversity? Uh, it, it adds more value to your employer. I think it helps, uh, helps you when it comes to, uh, recessions and layoffs. Uh, you know, the more skills you have, the more things you can do, uh, the better position that, that puts a person in to protect them from those things.

And, and in general, I think it just makes you a better professional. The more well-rounded. Without a doubt without a doubt. Yeah. I mean, to your point, uh, I'm on the design side of things, uh, in engineering and construction design, and I've had so many instances in which, you know, we have to, uh, assess hazardous materials and, you know, determine if we are in the, you know, maximum allowable quantity for a facility or a control area and provide documentation of that, um, hazard.

So yeah, like you said, you really can't escape it if, even if you are just on the design side of things, mm-hmm, , there is a lot of overlap. So I think that's a great point. Yeah. Also in just like the, the job resiliency aspect of it. I mean, there's, it's a huge, um, I mean there, there are two good job markets and I mean, yeah, I think having options is an excellent, um, pro to the program at OSU.

But so I just wanted to, and I mean, you don't have to go into, uh, in depth on it cuz I know if somebody really wants to find out they could Google the, you know, the course description and find that online. But I just wanted to ask you to, you know, speak about a little bit more in detail, what the, um, different courses are inside the program for somebody who might be interested in looking at going to OSU.

Sure. Uh, so we, we start you out with base a survey class, uh, it's our intro class, and you're gonna learn about fire safety, uh, industrial hygiene and just study the historic fires and why we have fire codes. You'll study the historic safety incidents and, and why we have process safety management standards and, and things like that to kind of first let you know, like, this is why we're here.

This is the type of stuff you're gonna be working on and trying to prevent, uh, introduce you to codes, uh, because if, if you can't, you know, I don't wanna say handle, but if, if the idea of spending a lot of time examining, uh, the fire code and, and the OSHA standards, uh, drives you absolutely bonkers, uh, we want you to know early, so you can find something that matches your skill set better, but we're gonna give you that survey and say, you know, if you're here, you wanna protect life, property environment, uh, this interests you then, okay, let's, let's move on.

And then the next class you'll take freshman year, your freshman year is our systems fire protection systems class, get in there and, and work with sprinklers and alarms and, and really learn like the hardware. And this is really part of the technology degree. This is engineering technology, not, not pure engineering.

Uh, we want you to have that hands on experience with the equipment, uh, not that you're gonna be an installer. Uh, but we want you to be able to know what quality workmanship looks like. We want to teach you ways that a contractor might cheat you. Um, and so when you're also so that when you're reading the codes, you understand what it means when it's talking about a jockey pump, right?

And, and what does it do? And you can actually see it and understand it in a very tangible way that kind of sets your foundation. You'll take an introductory safety course too, which will, you know, we'll put you in a confined space and we'll put you in a fall rest lanyard. And those sorts of things, again, introduce you to the OSHA standards and, and how to read them as well as get some of that hands on application of what do these things really do in, in, in real life.

And you know, why your, your six foot lanyard, uh, you know, how far you're gonna fall and, and how high you need to be before fall. Protection's effective, things like that. That kind of sets the, the foundation there in your, your lower, um, division classes. And then from there, we, we keep ramping up, uh, you know, you get more math, you get more engineering, uh, either be on, you know, you're gonna take statics and, uh, thermodynamics, uh, then you're gonna on the, on the, the core side, you know, industrial hygiene is a very mathematic, uh, heavy class, uh, with exposure assessment and then process safety, you know, getting into more, uh, complex safety things.

Then you'll take fire dynamics to really understand how fire moves. And I think that's probably the, one of the bigger changes from, you know, some of our alumni from, you know, 10 or 20 years ago, you know, moving away from a lot of the system stuff into these bigger ideas of fire dynamics and how smoke moves in a building.

You take smoke control class, uh, getting into the more advanced engineering. And then you'll take a, uh, we used to call it the loss prevention class. Uh, now it's, uh, a risk engineering class where we're gonna pull it all together and put you out into a facility and look at comprehensive. What are the fire issues?

What are the safety issues? What are the hygiene issues? What are the environmental issues and a real building? We do numerous tours of actual factories and hospitals and libraries, other commercial buildings. You have to put your eyes on and see what are the risks? What are the controls, uh, really trying to get you ready, uh, to go out the door in how we finish that off is with the senior design project or the capstone where you and a couple O other students are gonna be on a team for two semesters, trying to tackle, uh, a kind of an entry level research project.

It's not, it's not just something we can go to the code book and you've got a, a cookie cutter solution for it's. Well, we need to go find out some things. We need to do some small experiments and read some scientific literature and be able to come up with a solution so that when you are out in the workplace and you know, that hex, Ava chromium issue comes up, uh, you have those skills to be able to go out and evaluate a problem, come up with solutions, work through some validation that it's actually gonna be effective.

Uh, those sorts of things. And that's really where we kind of, at that point, we think you're ready to go out the door in the industry and be a, you know, a really good con. That's great. Yeah. A couple points I, I really resonate with is, you know, personally I have a huge interest in systems. And so the technology piece of the program at OSU is, is proven to be, uh, really invaluable, um, during my time as, uh, doing design for a fire suppression contractor.

And also now as a fire protection engineer that does construction documents, you know, having that, um, entry level knowledge of the system components and how they interact and kind of, uh, what the overall architecture looks like for, uh, fire protection system is that puts you leaks ahead of somebody who comes into that role without the, you know, the background of the program.

So I think that's great. And then, yeah, also to add on to what you said about the capstone, um, I think the Capstone's really great because not only is it, uh, something that you get to have, uh, Somewhat of a say in determining, you know, uh, what you're investigating and kind of the problem that you're looking to solve.

But also you can use that as a, a, a component to sell yourself to, um, your employer, um, that you're looking to get a offer from on the way out of school. You know, if, if that corresponds to the field in which you are looking to, uh, find a job in. So certainly, yeah, I really like that too. I wanted to also ask about, um, yeah.

How have you seen the curriculum evolve at OSU since your time there? You know, I'm, I feel lucky. I got to be, uh, you and Virginia. Uh, I got to be, um, one of the first round of students that had you as professor, I think, yeah, I think I was entering some of the classes on your, uh, first go through 'em mm-hmm but, uh, I really enjoyed you both, but yeah, I just wanted to.

Uh, pick your brain on the topic of kind of how the curriculum and, you know, the professionals that your help training for the next generation of fire and life safety professionals, how that's kind of changed. Yeah. The, the curriculum is, is always evolving. Uh, you know, I think, you know, some of our alumni probably are listening and, you know, they have a idea of what it was like and, you know, they, they think it should never change.

And, um, you know, and another alumni who are, you know, definitely out there that are on our advisory board, you know, they're out there in industry and they're hiring our graduates, say, Hey, we need, we need this skill set. We need to add this skillset. And I think the hardest thing to do that we really kind of struggle with between the faculty and the advisory board is, yeah, we need, we need to add these skill sets.

What do we have to get rid of? You know, uh, we can't, we can't just keep adding hours to the curriculum. We have to choose what's there. So I think what you're seeing is, uh, less. Emphasis on, uh, I would say more the daily kind of tasks in environmental health and safety. You know, we're not gonna tear apart an extinguisher and, and inspect the inside of the, of an extinguisher anymore.

Uh, you know, that used to be a huge part of, of 12, 13. Uh, and at the time it was absolutely necessary. It was, I was all, you know, a big part of the, the role. Uh, but now employers are, are looking for, um, something a bit different, you know, they want, you know, fire extinguisher inspection. They want that turnkey from a vendor.

Uh, that's not something they want a, an in-house, uh, person to be doing. And you know, what they want really is, uh, the ability to evaluate risk, uh, in, in whatever kind of nature that risk may be. Uh, it could be a fire risk. It could be a safety risk. It could be a business continuity risk, or a business interruption risk.

Uh, and they want someone that can come in and evaluate risk across many domains, uh, and be able to develop solutions for that, uh, to, to mitigate it. And so even on, on the design side, you know, if you're designing a system, uh, that fundamentally still holds, you know, we're, we're evaluating risks now on the fire side using modeling, you know, we're looking at evacuation models, we're looking at smoke models, we're looking at fire growth models, uh, which, you know, 20 years ago, we didn't even have any of the tools to be able to do that.

But now, as, as computers have gotten, uh, much better as we've our programming of those computers and our tools for numeric methods have gotten better, uh, we're able to go in and, and simulate things in the virtual space with pretty good accuracy. Uh, obviously there's a lot of universities out there that are trying to validate those models.

Uh, more and more so that we can use them, but that's what we're looking at. It's how do we have graduates that are up to date with the latest technology that are using the, the most current tools to be able to manage, uh, these risks that are out there in, in the real world? That's great. Yeah. I like what you ended with on that last part about, you know, uh, being able to pick up these, these new tools and technology.

I mean, I, I've seen a lot of, uh, increase or uptick in, uh, people speaking about performance based design and kind of some of these, um, modeling technique techniques as a, uh, tool in your belt to be creative when problem solving mm-hmm for some of these fire and life safety, uh, hazards. So I think that's a great point.

So also I wanted to say, you know, um, or just kind of, uh, touch on as well about, you know, What you see as trending in, you know, those who are hiring, um, fire and life safety professionals right now, I'm sure there are, um, a lot of people who are interested in that topic, uh, with the current climate of the, the pandemic and just, you know, um, businesses in general kind of struggling mm-hmm

Yeah. So I think employers, what, what we're seeing, uh, they, they want, uh, a few things out of graduates. Um, one that that's always, um, or at least we always hit the comment back that our graduates are able to hit the ground running the first day in the job that we don't have to spend a year training them to do their jobs.

And that's the commodity that I think employers want, you know, training is expensive. Um, and I'm not saying that our graduates don't go out and get on the job training. Uh, it's just that they want. A new hire to be productive as soon as possible. And so doing things such as these industry tours and, and writing reports to, to the people that, that host these tours, doing these senior design projects, being able to present a product gets you so much closer, you know, on day one and being able to go out, evaluate a problem, come up with a solution, present it, you know, being turnkey.

That's what they're, they're really looking for. And you need to, to couple that with work ethic, you know, they, they want people that are gonna show up and actually work. Uh, you know, I understand work is a four letter word that ends in K. Uh, but you gotta get it done, you know, uh, and so I think the third piece is they want you to be as error free, uh, as possible.

You know, you you've gotta check your work. You need to have somebody peer review your work. Um, Which is one of those things that, that in your career, people need to really develop those relationships that you can have somebody check your work. Uh, so that we, you know, we don't have a, uh, a satellite probe that goes to Mars and crashes into it because we use standard units instead of SI units.

Um, you know, there, there's a whole list and list of these, these, you know, very high profile goofs, uh, but even small ones, you know, I, I kind of qu to my students when they take my industrial hygiene exams, that it's okay. If they get a wrong answer, no, one's gonna get cancer at this time. Uh, you know that, but when you're out there in the real world, these calculations have to be right, or someone will get, you know, potentially get hearing loss or cancer, or, you know, the sprinkler, system's not gonna work as, as needed.

And so, yeah. You know, that's what the employers are looking for, you know, be able to hit the ground running work hard and, and be as error free as possible. Yeah. That's great points. Yeah. It, something that I saw, uh, In, uh, fire suppression, you know, the okay state program, uh, kind of helped me not need as much, um, teaching for, you know, what is an FBA 13 and how is it laid out?

And mm-hmm, , you know, what are those components? So I can see how, um, being able to hit the ground running and, and not needing, um, months or of training in order to, you know, at least take steps in the right direction would be incredibly valuable. Mm-hmm I wanted to touch on some professional development topics because, uh, in, in my short career, I've definitely, um, had some good advice from you.

Uh, you know, I think I was looking at, you know, accepting my, one of my first jobs and I was talking to, we were taking a, a field trip with you and, uh, uh, Brian Hoskins, uh, and, uh, we were talking on the bus. I was looking at a couple different offers for getting outta school. And I was like, well, you know, uh, what, what should I do?

You know, this one is worth X dollars and, and this one is worth, you know, Y dollars. Um, you know, and you guys both kind of looked at me and you were like, well, you know, you really need to, you know, address these things for what's the, what's the best, um, place to learn. And you know, what the structure around you is gonna be, you know?

Yes, the dollar number is compelling and you gave a speech about, you know, where you start in your career is important, but, um, yeah. So I just wanna say, thanks for that piece of advice. It, it didn't serve me wrong in my career. And then also ask, uh, you know, what is, uh, do you have a piece of advice for, um, fire and life safety professionals that you would like to issue as well?

Sure. So, yeah, so I'll definitely emphasize that point that for our new grads, new hires, even people, you know, if you've been at your job for a while and you're ready for something new. And you, you have multiple offers that, you know, it's always, it's always tempting to just look at the money. Um, but you know, sometimes those jobs that pay a lot of money are, are doing so because they're, they're gonna be, you know, maybe incredibly demanding or they can't get people to, to stay.

And so what I encourage, all of, all of my students to do is when they're, when they are fortunate to have, you know, two or three offers is I say, location can change, right? The money will come, but it's your boss, which of those three, do you wanna work for which one's gonna mentor you, which one's gonna help advance your career?

Uh, you know, that's, that's where you want to go. Uh, because if you get the right mentor, They're gonna try to help get you promoted, right. If you're doing the job right. And they're doing good, a good mentor, a good boss wants to see you Excel. You know, when I was at, at Raytheon, I was always worried about trying to move out of the way of the people that were underneath me that were coming up.

And so that's what you wanna look for, uh, that just, I think the, the best career advice, cuz you know, if you've got a terrible boss, your life's gonna be miserable. You know, you spend, you know, most of your waking hours, uh, at work. And so if it's a miserable experience, then life is miserable. Uh, so really focus on, on, who's gonna be your boss and, and what are they gonna be able to, or do they have the right attitude to say that attitude of a teacher, the attitude of a mentor, um, take care of you, uh, you know, kind of in that.

That's great. Yeah. That, uh, definitely, you know, especially in your early career where you're gonna be spending a lot of time learning, um, making sure that you're in a position to have somebody who can, uh, facilitate that, um, uh, startup energy that it takes for every professional to, you know, kind of come to fruition.

Uh, it's important to have that. So I think that's a great point. Also. I just wanted to ask, um, you're someone who is well informed and just like, what kind of resources would you recommend to, um, students or professionals, you know, um, it could be technical or just kind of, um, business driven. I always like to ask this, um, ask this question because everybody kind of has their place where they get, um, professional information or, you know, kind of their, I don't wanna say news, but, you know, keeping.

An idea of what's happening in the industry, but right. Yeah. So I, I encourage my students. I encourage this for professionals and all of your listeners as well is that you need to be involved in your professional society. So if you're on, on the fire protect engineering side, society of fire protection engineers, you should be a member.

If you're a safety person, it should be, uh, you know, the, uh, society of safety professionals. If you are an additional hygienist, it's the American Hy association. You need to be involved. Uh, you're gonna get at a minimum, you know, email alerts about what's happening. Uh, you'll probably get some kind of periodical from them.

They may also have an academic journal that you may want to, uh, subscribe to, but they all put on a conference as well. And I strongly encourage you to go to a conference. Even if you're not certified, everybody with certifications needs to go to these things for their professional development points. Uh, so you're kind of forced into that, but even if you're not forced into it, I encourage you to go to the conference and participate.

Don't don't just pay your money, go, go there. And then, you know, sit at the Tiki bar, uh, the whole time go to the sessions, learn what's coming up. What's new, what's what's challenging. Uh, and the reason is cuz you're gonna figure out where you can leapfrog your, uh, your peers, not, not just even just your peers, those that have a lot more experience than you.

So this is, this is really apt for, for early career professionals. You know, I figured out early on, uh, in the additional hygiene realm that, you know, asbestos is a big deal, but there's no way I'm going to catch up to these experts that have spent their career 30 years dealing with asbestos. Um, you can't overcome that learning curve.

And so it's not a fair fight to try to, you know, advance along that path. However, if something new is Ari, a new hazard or a new issue, uh, arises, uh, now you're on a level playing field. And so for me, it was arc flash, uh, arc flash started becoming a big deal. It really had not been something that, that had been addressed very well across industry.

And, you know, I saw it at a conference and then I went and took some professional development classes on it, started working with our electrical engineers and, and maintenance personnel electricians, and became, you know, the arc flash guy. And, you know, you pick a few of those, you know, kind of with hexavalent Chrome was, was the other one.

And with arc flash, you pick a few of these, um, electromagnetic energy was another one, uh, RF, uh, Where sometimes these things are, are perceived as hard. And so some of your peers, new, new young professionals don't wanna take it on because it's hard. The older professionals they've already got their, their, their niche and they're happy and they don't wanna necessarily, uh, take on anymore.

And that's where you can, can latch onto these things become, you know, that subject matter expert within the company. And that's when you're gonna start getting sent, you know, traveling to other sites, being that SME for them, getting that exposure to corporate. And that's how you're gonna be able to, to make yourself known and, and climb the ladder.

And so that's where I think the real, the sweet spot is, is, is looking, going to conferences, finding up the up and coming risks and hazards or threats, latching onto those and becoming that SME for your organiz. that's great. That's a great point because, you know, I see a lot of professionals and now is this way as well, you know, really hungry to, uh, make a difference and, you know, kind of level up in their career.

And I think that's a solid takeaway for what you can do as a professional to make yourself competitive. So I really like that point. So Rob, I just wanted to, you know, um, end with, uh, something that, uh, has always kind of interests me in the same vein of what we just talked about with, um, knowing about what's happening in the industry and keeping your finger on the pulse of the kind of, not really up and coming hazards, but the new hazards that we're finding out who, how to address and, you know, Manage better, but yeah.

What do you see as a, a meaningful trend in, in fire and life safety? I'd love to hear about that. So I, I don't know if it's a, if it's a hazard, uh, per se or upcoming hazard, but it is something I find. Um, I used thematically interesting, uh, in the, on the fire protection side. Uh, even though that's not my, my main emphasis, you know, from a, uh, an owner operator kind of perspective in, in fire protection.

Uh, one of the things that just destroys your budget are the periodic inspections. You know, if you think about, if you have a, you know, facility, you know, I was at Raytheon, we had several facilities with over a million square feet under roof. That's a lot of fire extinguishers to inspect. Uh, so there's a lot of cost in those.

And what I'm seeing that I find interesting is the trend towards the automation of fire protection inspections. You know, there are, you know, and. P 10 was changed. I don't know. It's more than a dozen years ago now to allow for self inspecting or automated inspection of, uh, fire extinguishers for their monthlys.

And we're seeing it now on, uh, the water, uh, water paddle switches, water flow switches in fire, uh, protection systems that they can, they have a, you know, a little screw worm drive that can push the paddle and, and initiate the signal. Uh, and so this increasing automation that helps with reliability, but also at the same time is reducing, uh, labor and cost so that, you know, not that I'm advocating that we go out and, you know, lay off everybody because we now have automated inspection, but it then allows that, uh, labor force then to go do other risk mitigation, uh, activities.

And so I find that as a, a real boon, uh, you know, as, as we're, you know, always trying to become more efficient, uh, with our resources, you know, in industry that, uh, if we can get some of these tasks automated, uh, then we can do things that require, you know, human know how, uh, to be able to do that, to mitigate risk and make things, you know, essentially better.

Uh, and that's a, I think is a really exciting trend and, and I hope it continues, uh, in that direct. Oh, yeah. I have no doubt that automation and the, uh, kind of remote inspection, tidal wave that's coming down, the pipeline is, uh, not stopping mm-hmm . I had the opportunity to speak to somebody who was on the new NFPA committee for remote inspections and, uh, yeah, it's, it's really interesting what, um, people are doing, um, to, uh, you know, basically add an advantage of, um, cost effectiveness to the, uh, required ITM.

And I think it provides more reliable ITM in a lot of instances. Mm-hmm I think it's a win all around. There's a lot of pencil going on out there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I think that, uh, if we can automatically do it and then also what you said, you know, there's a time and a place for, um, remote inspections and it's, it's not for, for every, uh, instance and it's not for, for every, uh, ITM task, but certainly I think in the right application, it's really powerful.

So I like that point. Um, well, Rob, I just wanted to be, uh, mindful of your time and just say that it's been an absolute honor to talk to you and I really enjoyed it, but, uh, yeah. Thank you for coming on the show. It's been great. It's great. Catching up with you. I appreciate the invitations and, uh, wish you all the best.

This is a, this is great, great podcast. Glad you're doing it. Thanks. Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

It’s the first solocast episode of Fire Code Tech! In this episode, we talk about the codes and standards involving duct detectors. We discuss how to determine whether duct detectors are needed, what codes and standards may be involved, pro tips and lessons learned from an FPE.

If you like these episodes, be sure to check out Patreon.com/firecodetech for the continuation of the Duct Detectors episode! You can expect these solocast episodes to be released twice a month.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about like specific technologies, installation standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly.

Inside of the context of a normal interview. So this is the first solo cast, and I just wanna give everybody an update on what's been going on with the podcast, how I've been doing we're coming up on our first year with fire code tech. And I'm really excited because there's been so much growth and good feedback from the community.

I got my PE last October, I had passed almost a year before last October in acquiring my experience and. In the application process, uh, it took almost another year for me to get the application. I don't know when this episode will come out, but I have some really stellar guests coming up soon. Couple professors that I have been waiting to talk to as well as some.

Really interesting guests from the, um, fire and line safety industry. So I'm excited to share those. Anyways, let's get to the episode content for the solo cast. In this episode, we're gonna be talking about duct detectors. I wanted to talk about duct detectors because. I always sense, a lot of confusion about them generally from mechanical engineers or from also fire protection engineers.

A lot of times we'll get it mixed up duct detectors. So I wanted to narrow in on this specific technology and talk about the codes and standards surrounding it. Some of the common. Pro tips for, um, dealing with some of these devices. Yeah. So I just wanted to explore the topic. Let's get into it by the way.

If you're enjoying these episodes, you can go to patreon.com/fire code tech, and for the price of a cup of coffee, you can get an extra two of these episodes a month. You'll be supporting the podcast and allowing me to do more and put out more content. So, um, go sign up if this is something you're interested in.

So with duct detectors, it's a good starting place. One of my mentors lean always, anytime we talk about a, a code or a topic, she says, um, you know, gotta start. The applicable codes and standards and what those look like. So if you're in the United States, that's probably a good preface for everything.

Almost everything I put out. This is through the lens of somebody who's working in the construction industry in the us. If you're in the United States and you're working with the international, uh, family of codes, the international building code and, uh, you know, international mechanical code, et cetera, you're going to be using international mechanical code.

Um, by and large to determine when and where you need to locate duct detectors. I'll go over the code section a little bit, just as a baseline at anytime you are using the international mechanical code, unless you get into a, um, air handling unit with a particularly large CFM that it's rated for that.

You're just gonna be putting duct detectors in the return side. So add this caveat because. There, if you are working on government jobs, like, uh, the company I work for works on a number of government jobs. And so if you're working on a job that complies with UFC, you are going to be using NFPA 90 a also that means that you're gonna be locating your duct detector in the supply side.

Duct. That's a common misconception that I see that trips people up, cuz in some instances, if you're, you know, using NF 90 a and the international mechanical code, you can get tripped up. So let's start out with the code section in the international mechanical code. I'm using the 2 20 15 version. We can just start out with, uh, 6 0 6 0.2 in IMC.

Chapter six is duck systems, um, 6 0 6 0.2 is where required. It says smoke detectors shall be installed where indicated in sections 6 0 6 0.2 0.1 through 6 0 6 0.2 0.3. Basically there is a list of conditions in which, you know, the, if you meet these conditions, then you will be required to have a duct detector in your, um, H V a C system.

And to add onto that, there are some exceptions in which you can kind of put a caveat on, you know, the requirement for the need of a duct detector. So 6 0 6 0.2 0.1 says return error systems and the passages smoke detectors shall be installed in the return error systems with the design capacity greater than 2000 CFM.

This is usually what everybody remembers. 2000 CFM is the threshold. And, you know, but they don't quite remember where or how these duct detectors are supposed to be located. And in the passage goes on to describe this a little bit more. It says in the return air, duct plenum, upstream of any filters, exhaust air connections, outdoor air connections, or decontamination equipment and appliances, you know, a very powerful exception is right below.

And then basically states that, you know, smoke air smoke detectors are not required in the return air where all portions of the building serve by the air distribution system are protected by area smoke. Connected to the fire alarm system in accordance with the IFFC the area smoke detection system shall comply with section 6 0 6 0.4.

There's not too many instances in the vanilla, uh, building code in which you need area smoke detection. This is one of those instances. I am not a huge fan of area smoke detection, but there are situations in which it can't be avoided due to ceiling plenum height, or, you know, uh, physical construction of a mechanical unit.

There can be situations in which. You know, you can't physically get a duct detector in a unit or in a, a return duct. So in some instances, there are no ways to get around having area smoke detection. When you have a, a system, a H V a C system that has the design capacity greater than 2000 CFM. And. You know, is not separated.

Uh, if you forget where this is located, you know, always remember international mechanical code, and then if you have a searchable document, I would, uh, always search detector and usually you can get to 6 0 6 pretty fast. So the other most common, um, exception to the rule of when you need smoke detectors, I missed.

Up at the top, but you know, it says smoke detectors shall not be required where air distribution systems are incapable of spreading smoke beyond the enclosing walls, floors, ceilings of the room or space in which the smoke is generated. This is a great exception. You know, if you have a large unit that is just, um, dumping air into a space, like a big warehouse space or, um, you know, for the company that I work for, we have, um, you know, hangers in which we.

Dumping large volumes of air, but it's just serving one space. You don't need a duct detector. However, I will say, as a cautionary tale, there are jurisdictions that don't recognize this provision. You know, I was working in California on a job late in the design period. I got bit on, you know, not having, uh, duct detectors in.

That would normally be omitted with this provision. So it's, it's worth noting that, you know, check your local ordinances. Um, if you're in California, of course, you can just kind of throw the standard international mechanical code out the door and you need to read the code. Like you've never, you know, designed a system specific system application before.

It's worth noting that duct detector is a supervisory signal. So this is not an alarm condition. There is some really interesting information about the supervision condition for duct detectors and 6 0 6 0.4 0.1. Says the duct smoke detector shall be connected to a fire alarm system where a fire alarm is required by 9 0 7 0.2 of the international fire code.

So 9 0 7 in the building code and in the fire code are the fire alarm chapters. So basically this point, you. To, um, how you determine where a fire alarm system is required. And, and so this code section is saying, if you are required to, you know, have a fire alarm system and you have a duct detector, you need to, you know, have a supervisory condition.

When the duct detector is activated. So, and then there's some interesting exceptions below reading. This it's kind of interesting. It says, uh, the supervisory signal at a constantly attended location is not required where the duct smoke detector activates the buildings, alarm indicating appliances. Uh, you have never used this provision.

That's kind of interesting. Generally, if you have a fire alarm system, that's monitored. And so I guess this is a way you could short circuit that and then, uh, exception number two is in, occupancy's not required to be equipped with fire alarm system, actuation of a smoke detector shall beta visible and audible signal in an approved location.

Duct smoke detection, trouble conditions shall activate visible or audible signal and approved location shall be identified as a duct detector trouble. So basically this is another unique provision for a building that is not required to have a fire alarm system. But is required by the IMC to have a duct detector.

Yeah. I imagine there's some specific use cases in which you would see this, but I've not had, uh, any experience with buildings, um, with this unique configuration. Usually if the building's that small, they're not gonna require that much air. Yeah. I guess there's some unique cases which I might not be aware of, but so that wraps up our first solo cast episode of fire code tech.

Um, really excited about these. Don't forget. If you like these, and you wanna hear a couple more of these a month, go check out patreon.com/fire code tech. The first episode on the Patreon is another, uh, similar length of exposition on duct detectors. So if you enjoyed this little dive into duct detectors, then there's more of that where you can find on, uh, patreon.com/fire code tech.

So check it. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

In episode 23 of Fire Code Tech, we speak with Michael Kilby the Associate Director for Fire Protection at the Smithsonian Institution. We discuss high-value asset fire protection and some of the unique challenges that Michael and the team of fire protection engineers at the Smithsonian Institution tackle for the more than 600 facilities under the organization’s jurisdiction.

Tell us a little bit about your background?  2:38

What is your role at the Smithsonian Institution? 5:42

What do you do on a day to day basis for provide fire and life safety compliance for the Smithsonian? 12:55

How does the Smithsonian handle documentation for the numerous construction projects? 15:12

How does the Smithsonian deal with management of change and rotating the exhibit? 19:42

What are some insights on protecting high value cultural assets? 23:19

Would you speak a little more about storage and how the Smithsonian tackles the challenge? 29:00

What is your take on the Preaction sprinkler system versus traditional wet pipe sprinkler system? 35:43

How have you been involved with the codes and standards process? 42:42

What do you see as a trend in the industry? 50:14

Where do you go to find solid resources for fire and life safety? 54:10

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the.

You're in the right place. Hello. All welcome to episode 23 of fire code tech. In this episode, we have Michael Kilby. Michael is the associate director for fire protection at this Smithsonian Institute. In this episode, we talk about fire protection for museum occupancies and collection storage. This episode is really fascinat.

Um, Michael talks about his career and some of the really unique challenges that he deals with, uh, being in, uh, corporate fire protection for the Smithsonian Institute. There's some great information, uh, learning about that. The Smithsonian Institute, not only houses, uh, museum facilities, but also, uh, numerous amounts of research, uh, occupancies and different.

Laboratories this interview is about museum and storage collections, but I think that this interview is applicable for anybody who wants to protect high value assets. Michael gives some great insight to some misconceptions about fire suppression and how we can tackle this public education piece for building owners and for everybody involved in fire and life safety.

Also, Michael talks to us. Codes and standards. He sits on the committee for NFPA 9 0 9 and nine 14, uh, both museum related and FPA standards. Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. Let's dive in. Hello, Michael. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Well, thanks, Gus. Really pleased to be. Awesome. Well, I wanted to get started with, um, telling the listeners a little bit about, um, your background and how you got into, um, working at fire and life safety. Would you mind telling us a little bit about that? Okay. Yeah, sure. Um, well I think like a lot of people, my career field is happened somewhat by chance.

Um, I wasn't going school for mechanical engineering. And just through a family friend, I found out about, uh, university of Maryland's fire protection engineering program. And I said, wow, that sounds a lot more interesting to me. Um, you know, they had classes like biometrics of materials and fire dynamics, uh, which just sounded fascinating and.

So I went to into the department, talked to the chair for about an hour, found out, you know, the whole mission of fire protection is, you know, it's all about saving lives and saving property, which really struck a chord with me. And, um, so I switched over into fire protection engineering. Um, got my degree from university of Maryland and, um, you know, pursued my career in, in fire, fire protection, man, what a beautiful program to stumble into the university of me, Maryland.

Arguably one of the, you know, the foremost in the nation. You know, if not the most, one of the most foremost fire protection engineering programs in the nation. So that's incredible that you got your start, uh, somewhat by a happenstance. Uh, yeah, it's, it's not, uh, an uncommon story I found in fire protection to, um, find yourself in, uh, in the field, um, out of, uh, not, maybe not pre-designed, but.

I found that it usually sticks, sticks to the ribs once people, uh, get into the field. So that's fascinating. I'm happy to hear about that. Yeah. And I, I noticed that, you know, in, when I was a student in fire protection, probably between a third and half the class, um, had some firefighting background. So you had some that were just engineers that switched over into fire protection, and then you had another group of students.

We're already in fire, a fire protection field. They were either professional or volunteer firefighters that, um, you know, wanted to get a technical degree and do something in fire protection. Yeah, I think you're right. I've, uh, spoken with the number of people who have either family members or people in their life that.

We're in the fire service or some inkling that they would like to be in engineering and then kind of, um, found their way into it in that, in that regard. But I wanted to, uh, uh, speak a little bit more about, um, you know, your career and kind of, um, how you found yourself at the, at the Smithsonian, or maybe, uh, speak a little bit about the.

The, uh, transition from your education to your role at the Smithsonian. Okay. Yeah, sure. Um, well, let's see, I graduated from university of Maryland back in 1988. So it's been a, and I've been with the Smithsonian ever since. Um, just coming as a new engineering student coming outta school. I wasn't really sure where I was.

Ended up working. Um, but it was a good time back then, you know, for looking for a job. And I got multiple job offers with, you know, different government agencies, private sector oil industry. Um, but when I had my interview with the Smithsonian, I think I knew that's where I wanted to go. It was just, um, you know, such an place.

Uh, you know, for our listeners, you know, if you've been to the Smithsonian as a, you know, as a school age kid, you, I think most kids are really enthralled with the exhibits. Um, and I've remembered that from when I was a school age kid, I was like, wow, this is a really cool place. I wanna, I wanna work here.

Um, and I've really liked the mission of the Smithsonian, which was their mission is the increase in diffusion of knowledge. And, uh, I said, wow, that's, that's something I could work for and, and try to protect, you know, that mission. So right outta school, I ended up landing a job at this Smithsonian as a, uh, sort of entry level fire protection engineer.

And, uh, fortunately when I started, um, I was working with, they had like four other fire protection engineers working at the institution. So, um, you know, Definitely had experienced people to, to learn from that's nice that you had some mentorship and some people who you could, you know, learn the craft from.

Yeah. I could understand that this Smithsonian would be, you know, I mean, pretty much. Uh it's uh, yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's an extremely well known Institute in the, in the us, I mean, and probably the world at large. Um, I mean, it's incredible. I had the opportunity to go as a, as a young man, as a couple of the Smithsonian museums in, and I feel like, uh, it's a place of, of wonder for a lot of people who get to enter it and be a part of it.

So yeah, I could understand why you would be drawn to such an organization and, uh, you know, a pursuit like. Yeah. There's and there's just so much going on, um, that, you know, so I've been there 30, I guess this is my 32nd year. And, uh, I've never gotten bored. There's always new challenges. Um, I think what a lot of people don't, you know, everyone knows the Smithsonian as, you know, the forts museums, but, um, I think a lot of people don't realize.

That it's actually a really large research organization. So we have nine 19 museums and research centers. And while most of them are in the Washington DC area, we have, um, other museums and research centers scattered around the country and even outside the country. Uh, we have, you know, mu two museums up in New York, in New York city, uh, an American Indian.

American Indian museum and the, uh, Cooper Hewitt national design museum. And we have observator in Boston, Arizona, and in Hawaii. And we have, uh, Environmental research centers in, in Maryland and down in Panama, multiple sites in Panama. So there's, there's a lot to keep you busy and a lot of variety, man.

That's incredible. I did not know about all the research pursuits that the Smithsonians involved with. That's pretty, that's pretty fascinating that man. Yeah. I, I have no clue about the. Diversity of the range of, uh, you know, different facilities that you're involved with. That must be, you know, I knew I was just thinking, you know, just with the, um, complex hazards and, you know, valuable assets that you're protecting and in, uh, you know, the main locations with the museums, that's plenty of, you know, um, challenge and.

Interesting fire protection systems in itself, but outside of the, I mean, in Panama and other places, you know, that's pretty incredible. I'm sure that you have, uh, a wide variety of fire protection systems and codes and standards that, uh, you have to navigate in order to. Provide, um, life safety solutions for these facilities.

Yeah. It's kind of interesting because you know, we are working in different jurisdictions, you know, different states, even different countries sometimes. And so, you know, we had to work with other, um, fire marshals, you know, other governments. Um, but we, because the Smithsonian is a federal entity. Generally, um, my office serves as the, basically the fire marshal for the Smithsonian or the code official for the Smithsonian.

Um, but we still, you know, have to work with the lo local jurisdictions to make sure, um, you know, cause we depend on their fire departments to save us if we do have a problem. So we wanna make sure that, uh, we're cooperating with. Wow. That's an extremely interesting position that you know, that to be the authority, having jurisdiction for, uh, you know, an international, you know, a program that has international reach and scope and, you know, um, probably it sounds like dozens of buildings, um, that you're.

Um, in involved with, from a fire protection and life safety standpoint. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. I think, um, overall I think we have about six, 600 buildings. Wow. And it's 16 million square feet of space, um, Mo moley. So yeah, it's uh, anyway, some of those buildings. You know, a small shed somewhere and the other ones are buildings like the natural history museum, which is a 1.5 million square feet.

So a real wide variety of, uh, spaces and, and types of occupancies. So with the, with, with the scope, that's that, um, wide and, you know, just a range of facilities. What does it look like for you to provide fire protection and life safety for these facilities? What are you doing on a data day to day basis essentially to, um, um, review, uh, uh, you know, documentation or, um, whatever it is, you know, to provide, um, compliant, life safety for these buildings?

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, from day to day, I'd say. And, and let me say also, it's not just me. Of course. I got, um, right. We have seven right now we have seven fire protection engineers, um, plus myself, um, working at Smithsonian. So I'd say, you know, as a group, we probably spend about 70% of our time when reviewing projects, you know, reviewing designs and providing construction over.

To make sure, you know, these projects are built according to the, you know, our standards. Um, and then we've probably spent about 20% of our time just doing facility inspections, you know, going out and. Working with each individual, the management and others staff at each of these facilities to make sure we understand what the processes are that are happening in that, in that facility.

And that, you know, all the fire prevention and fire protection, um, requirements are being met. And then the, the last 10% we're providing staff training, um, you know, whether it's on things like hot work or. How to protect your collections, those type of things, um, and developing policy for the, for the Smithson.

That's very interesting. Yeah. It, it makes sense that you would spend a, a large portion of your time verifying that, um, any of the number of, you know, uh, new construction or existing construction work was being done to the standard of the Smithsonian. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense, but yeah, I wanted to touch on, you know, uh, for.

An entity that protects 600 facilities. I mean, how do you, how does the Smithsonian tackle like, uh, documentation or, you know, verifying that these, um, very critical facilities stay up to date on, um, you know, just, uh, this state and the compliance of their fire protection and life safety systems. Oh, yeah.

Okay. So yeah, it does take an organized approach to be able to do that. Um, fortunately Smithsonian has a sort of an established process for all new construction. You know, whether it's a small remodel or it's building a, you know, a new wing on a building. And so we have a process in place. Just starting from scope, you know, uh, scope of work all the way through to construction, uh, all stakeholders and, you know, fire protection being one, but there's lots of other people have, are interested in what's happening with.

With these projects, um, whether it's accessibility or it's, you know, electrical or mechanical, you know, all, all the other fields that need to be, uh, reviewed during, uh, design are involved. So there's a set process and it's a sort of a stepwise process where you start from scope of work and you go to, you know, 35% design, 65% design, a hundred percent design, and each step.

All the reviewers get to, you know, review the drawings and specifications, make comments, get those resolved. Um, you know, until you have, you have a final sign off when the design and, um, one of the people have to sign off when those final drawings and then it moves to construction. Um, And then we're involved in, in reviewing all the construction submittals and, you know, do all the acceptance testing for new new systems, uh, final inspections.

And then fi finally it ends with us issuing, issuing a, uh, certificate of occupancy for that new space, all that information. You know, every comment that everyone makes during the design, uh, all the construction submittals are captured in a database. So that we have a record of it. Um, yeah. Is it perfect? I would say no, it's not perfect, but, um, it's pretty thorough.

Yeah. I mean, no, no. Uh, nobody's perfect. And no documentation process is perfect, but yeah. I just know that, you know, for any, um, facility owner, that's a big challenge. So yeah, I just wanted to talk about that because I know that for, you know, I deal with owners all the time and. You know, it's one of the hardest things to do is have a set of construction documents or, you know, specifications from when the building was built or when, um, different changes within the building has happened over the years of, uh, you know, 50.

You know, 60, 70, a hundred years, you know, buildings can be around for us. So yeah, that's kind of the reason why I was prob in that direction. Yeah. That, yeah, you're absolutely right. GU and um, I mean, I guess the one advantage we have is that generally our properties aren't changing hands. You know, they, they belong to the Smithsonian and they stay in the Smithsonian.

So we ha we basically have, you know, our hands on those records. Uh, for the, you know, for the life of the building, whereas in, you know, say a commercial property, it might, you know, over a hundred year time, it may change hands five to 10 times. And you never know if those documents are gonna get forward it to the next owner.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I guess it doesn't change hands. So that would help the standardization of the. Keeping the data in the right place. Oh yeah. Yeah. So in this, in a similar vein of, you know, uh, documentation and just kind of, uh, the, uh, management of facilities I wanted to talk about, um, how does, you know, the Smithsonian.

Uh, deal with like management of change. You know, I, when I think of this Smithsonian, like you said, I kind of think of the museums and exhibits and, you know, like I just, you know, was wondering about, you know, when you do have a new exhibit or, you know, a new collection come into place, you know, how are you.

Or how does this Smithsonian like, keep up with the, with the ever changing, uh, you know, fire protection and life safety complications of kind of rotating these different, um, exhibits around. That's a great question. And it is a challenge. Um, well, one, you know, just having that review process does help us.

So no matter how. Small project. It still goes through this review process. So we get a chance to see it. Um, you know, even like when we change out an exhibit, it still goes through that review process. But, um, there are other changes that are real, a little bit harder to catch, you know, it could be, um, for example, you know, we have a collection storage space somewhere and they decide that they need to change all the shelving.

and, you know, sometimes it's just, uh, an awareness like, oh, well that might actually affect how you protect the, the collections. Um, you know, you might change the shelving and now you need indirect sprinklers or, or you're blocking the sprinklers with the new shelving. Um, so that just takes trying to raise awareness with all our.

All the staff at the Smithsonian as to, you know, what kind of changes might impact fire protection or life safety, and then making sure that they contact our office, uh, to let us know when they are making those kind of changes. Um, and then also, you know, we have our. Facility inspections that we do. And we do those annually for, you know, all the buildings across the Smithsonian.

So there are times where something gets missed and then, you know, we're out doing a facility inspection and then we catch it at that point. Uh, but certainly our preference is to catch it ahead ahead of time. Sure that makes sense. Yeah. I understand, uh, about the education piece of, you know, helping, uh, people know when, you know, what things imply, fire and life safety, um, consequences.

And so, yeah, I often joke about, um, wanting to create. Like a frequently asked questions for, you know, called like how, you know, when you need to involve fire protection, you know, working for a firm that does architectural and engineering design, um, you know, it could be, you know, somebody in interior finishes is you designing shelving, like you were kind of talking about and, you know, it's, if you have solid shelving over X height, you know, you might need fire protection or, you know, those sort of things.

So I understand kind of the. The, uh, education piece that you were speaking of, maybe that could be your next endeavor yeah, the, that would be good. Yeah. But, um, yeah, so. Wanted to talk a little bit more about, you know, I found you through, um, a great presentation you did about museum and, uh, you know, fire protection for museum and collections.

And, you know, I just wanted to speak a little bit about some of the great stuff you talked about in that presentation. Um, just a little bit of a high level overview of, you know, What are some good strategies for, you know, fire protection for these high value occupancies, where you have these assets that are, um, historically and culturally, um, extremely valuable, you know, how does this.

Differ from, uh, a standard, a more standard occupancy if, uh, that's not too nebulous of a question. No, I think that's a great question. Um, and that certainly is one of our, I guess you could call specialties is, you know, protecting collections, um, you know, for, for our mission, our division's mission. Yo I think certainly life safety is always the highest priority.

And then right behind that is protecting collections. Because, you know, if we don't have collections, there really isn't us Smithsonian. So, um, and certainly we put a lot of focus on collection storage areas, protecting collection storage areas, because, you know, that's where we have the highest density density of collections.

And that's where we have the potential for greatest loss is in our collection storage spaces. Um, and. I'd say we take sort of a, like, like to call a multi-prong approach to, uh, protecting collections. Um, you know, we use, you know, fire rated construction to isolate our, our collection spaces from adjacent spaces, you know, using, you know, fire and smoke barriers.

And then, um, you know, We almost almost a hundred percent use, you know, automatic sprinklers for fire suppression. Um, in some specialized collection spaces, we also have, you know, gassiest, total flooding, gassiest suppression systems, like, like FM 200 or Egen. Um, and then, um, you know, we always provide fire detection.

Typically it's either spot type smoke detectors or, um, more recently we're, we've begun using a lot of, uh, air sampling, smoke detection in those collection spaces. And then on the other side of the coin is, you know, we try to really have strict fire prevention protocols in place for all our collection storage spaces.

And then that's where we have to work with our collection staff and provide training. And, um, you know, make sure they're aware of, you know, don't bring extra combustibles into the collection storage spaces, you know? Try to have them do all, all their conservation work and other types of work outside of the collection storage space, and really have those collection storage spaces dedicated just for storage.

Um, and of course, you know, these are very secure spaces, so. Which, you know, works in favor of fire protection as well, because you have the less staff you have going into these spaces. The, the less likely, you know, something's gonna happen. Some type of accident's gonna happen. That's gonna start a fire.

That's an interesting point about a housekeeping note about, you know, I think of, you know, housekeeping in the, in the regard of, you know, keeping the aisles clear and you know, like a combustible dust and things, but I haven't, you know, thought about, um, the note as much about housekeeping and not, you know, loading up a space with, um, extra.

Uh, extraneous combustibles, but I could see how that could become a concern, uh, fairly quickly with the, the amount of collection work and the, you know, the, just the, um, you know, the value of the collection work that you're doing. That's, that's an interesting note. Yeah, there's a lot of just awareness training.

I think that we, we try to do with our, our collections collection management staff. No, we might go into a collection space and perhaps there was a single roof leak somewhere. So then, um, you know, very well meaning they went and covered all the collection shelving with, with polyethylene cheating, right.

To protect it from a roof leak, you know, any future roof leaks. And we're like, well, one, if you have a fire that, that stuff's gonna burn and it's gonna melt onto your collections. And two, it's gonna shield, um, the, the collections from getting wet, which will prevent the sprinklers from doing their job. So, you know, it's raising awareness about things like that, so that, um, you know, they make careful decisions that don't, uh, detract from, from fire protection.

Oh, that's interesting. So they're unintentionally, uh, like encapsulating the, the storage arrangements. Yeah. I could see how a well, meaning, you know, something like that could cause fire protection complications. But, um, yeah, so I wanted to get into a little bit more of, yeah, I love the seems like storage is a huge topic in the, in the industry.

Um, just as a overall design hazard and, uh, just a, it's a really big problem. And I think that a lot of people have, uh, misunderstanding about. and just, uh, how to adequately, um, deal with storage, you know, um, of the high powered variety, but also just the, you know, of the miscellaneous, um, sort. So, yeah, I just wanted to, you know, talk to you about, um, some of the, you know, I know you spoke about the different.

Strategies of multiprong fire protection for these collection spaces. But yeah, I just wanted to pick your brain a little bit more about, um, storage and how the Smithsonian deals with storage, if you had any more, um, food for thought on that subject. Yeah. Um, another thing is just the choice is made for storage equipment, you know, shelving cabinetry, and those type of things can go a long way.

Either protecting the collections or, or making them more vulnerable. Um, certainly we encourage our collection staff, uh, when they're making decisions about, about storage to, to look at using closed cabinetry, you know, metal cabinets that are actually closed. Um, so, you know, we have some clutch and storage spaces where everything is in a closed metal cabinet and, you know, it's.

Very difficult to even imagine a fire spreading through a space like that, where everything's in enclosed metal cabinet. Um, so that's a great fire protection measure. Um, and then we know we have other areas where everything's on open rack shelf, say, say it's furniture collections on, on open rack shells with, uh, with like a metal mesh shelving.

Uh, and then, you know, We find that the, the collections staff are putting in solid plywood on top of the metal mesh, so that the feet of the chairs don't go through the mesh, you know, you have something to hold the furniture up. And then that creates a whole issue, right? With, uh, distribution of the sprinkler water.

So we try to work really closely with the staff so that, um, You know, we make good decisions, right from the beginning about, you know, how to store store the, um, the collections. Um, and then I notice, you know, the past 10 to 15 years, there's been a real move to use compact shelving, you know, the mobile, mobile shelving, um, because you can store more.

Collections in a smaller space with this compact shelving, but that also, you know, creates challenges for, for protect for sprinkler protection. Um, you know, you have to make sure that the compact shelving has adequate space between the units so that the sprinkle border can get down between the shelving and prevent a fire from spreading from, from shelving unit to shelving unit.

Yeah, I, that's a definite challenge. I've seen, you know, uh, mobile rack storage or not rack storage, but mobile storage. And then, you know, automated storage now is I've seen in a couple facilities. Um, but it's hard to know what to do with those. Cause I mean, uh, you know, if you're dealing with something like a vertical carousel, you know, that's stationary, um, but is a, you know, a more, uh, compact.

Um, concealed sort of storage. Um, you can put a sprinkler in it, but with these, you know, mobile storage, um, configurations. Yeah. You can't really put a sprinkler pipe in a moving storage cabinet. So it's interesting hearing you talk about, uh, this spacing being the critical factor yeah. In, um, you know, NFPA 13, the code for.

Sprinkler protection, um, provides some guidance on mobile shelving, but it's interesting cuz then if you look at, um, the code for protecting cultural resource properties, NFP 9, 9 0 9, they give different guidance on how to protect compact shelving. And the reason it's different is because the goal was D.

With NFPA 13, the goal is no prevent your building from burning down with the N F P 9 0 9. The goal is to minimize the damage to your collections. So you, you want to have, uh, more robust protection for your collections so that your, you know, your goal isn't. Keep your building from burning down it's to contain a fire as quickly as possible.

And, and for in this case with mobile shelving it's to contain the fire to a single shelving unit so that you minimize your loss of collections. Wow. That's a great note about the nuances between the different NFPA documents. Yeah. I, uh, I really like that. It's, it's really fascinating for me to, to hear about, you know, you get to see a line of text in one of these NFPA codes, but some of the best information from the people who were involved with the codes and standards processes, the getting to hear the logic behind.

Why that, you know, we do some of the things that we do and you know, what the Genesis of some of these provisions in the, in the codes are. So, yeah, I, that's a great note on, um, you know, the, those, uh, differences in the standards, codes and standards. Yeah. When you, when you're working with the codes a lot, you realize sometimes you just need to talk to the people who actually develop the code.

For sure. Without a doubt. So yeah, on the, on the similar topic of suppression, you know, um, for the project I was working with, I was dealing with the, uh, museum occupancy. When I was looking for the information that led me to your work. Um, I was dealing with the museum occupancy and I was struggling with the topic of, you know, that the owner had, um, suggested that they had wanted a, um, they said the email that I received said dry pipe, but it was actually a pre-action system.

And, um, I was struggling with, uh, you know, kind of, um, some of my knowledge about, you know, the differences between. Um, what and pre action systems and which one I would prefer from a engineering and, um, reliability standpoint. But yeah, I just, um, wanted to speak with you a little bit about, you know, suppression and.

Um, what you see as the, the pros and cons for, you know, pre action system, um, contrasting to, um, what pipe sprinklers for, you know, high value assets. I mean, it doesn't just have to be in the context of this Smithsonian, but in just property protection in, in general. Well, that's a, that's a great question.

Especially in the museum world, that's a that's. Big question and, and a sensitive question. There's a lot, you know, across museums, you know, at least in this country. And I think elsewhere, um, the, I, even the idea of sprinklers, um, worries, a lot of museum professionals. When you talk to museum professionals, um, a lot of 'em are more worried about water than they are fire.

Um, so, you know, wet pipe versus pre action is a big question. Um, for the Smithsonian, I'd say probably nine out of 10 of our sprinkler systems are wet pipe. I'd say certainly the majority of our building spaces are protected with wet pipe sprinklers. Um, but we do have pre action systems as well. Um, you know, and you're right.

Each one has their pros and cons. Uh, certainly wet pipe is the simplest type of Sprinklr system. Right. And, um, and the most reliable. It's it's, you know, it's a beautiful thing. It's so simple, you know, you just put pressurized water up into a sprinkler system and you wait for a head to, uh, fuse and, and the system's working.

Um, but we have used pre action systems and some are more sensitive areas. Um, you know, some collection storage spaces, um, Some, um, like it server rooms, we, we ha use pre-action systems. And actually right now we're, we're doing a survey of all of our, um, art collection storage areas, where, where we have like, uh, paintings on open racks.

Because that's a really vulnerable type of arrangement for, for collections, uh, where they could be impacted by, you know, an accidental sprinkler discharge. So we're, we're surveying all those spaces to, and we're gonna take a look and see, you know, where we might want to switch from wet pipe to reaction for those type of spaces.

That's interesting. Yeah, I could, I would imagine that I know that for the preservation of some of these, uh, paintings, they have to be coded with different, um, chemicals and just different preservatives. So, um, having them stored open, uh, and just in, uh, you know, arrangement like that, I could see how that could be hazardous.

That's interesting that you say that. Uh, you know, if you had one sprinkler leak or one sprinkler discharge over, you know, open racks, it could certainly affect a lot of paintings. Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, I was kind of like, uh, an eyeopening, uh, moment I was listening to, I think somebody asked a question during your presentation, you know, about bleeding.

Pre action systems or, you know, kind of, um, flushing pre-action systems in order to get the, the water clearer out of the sprinkler systems. And it, and it's as a fire protection professional, I'm just kind of. You know, cringing inside, but I know that, you know, the, the lay person wouldn't know about, you know, why you wouldn't wanna do that, but yeah, I just, uh, how do you, how do you feel about, um, like nitrogen and, you know, the use of, um, that and like, when you do have to use reaction systems, Yeah, that's a good question.

And I think that's something that's really, um, a lot of people are thinking about now. Um, you know, we've certainly had some locations where we've had issues with pipe corrosion, uh, owned both wet pipe and pre-action systems and, um, We've begun looking at using nitrogen systems to, you know, try to slow down that, that corrosion process in our systems.

Um, yeah, actually, in fact, right now we're in the midst of installing a nitrogen system, um, at the national postal museum in, in Washington DC. So, you know, I certainly think there's the nitrogen systems, uh, Have merit, you know, and can help provide longevity to your systems and, and make them more reliable.

So I guess it's really on a case by case basis is, you know, if, if you have systems where you have corrosion issues, then, um, certainly the expense of putting in nitrogen system, you know, maybe worth, maybe worth it. Yeah. I think that's a great point. Uh, you know, as a, somebody who. Design systems or, you know, tries to give guidance to facilities owner I'm constantly straddling the line of, you know, making a, uh, cost effective, you know, code compliant solution, you know, while struggling with the, uh, needs of the owner, as far as, um, you know, uh, asset protection and you know, where they have additional concerns.

So I think that's a great, um, sentiment. If you have known corrosion issues with your water supply, then it might be worth the investment to, um, extend the lifespan of your system. Yeah. You know, and we're always, we're cost conscious too. And you know, we're always battling. The other forces of, uh, you know, we have people who are looking out for, you know, keeping costs down where, you know, we're, our goals are more in line with, you know, protecting the Smithsonian and protecting the collections and also, you know, getting as much longevity out of our systems as possible.

So it's, it's, it's weighing all of those forces and, and seeing which one wins out, I guess. Yeah, for sure. I hear you there. Um, so I wanted to talk about, um, a little bit of your work for work in the, uh, codes and standards process. I'm always fascinated about hearing from individuals who are involved in the process, cuz I, uh, I'm a code nerd myself.

So I, you know, I'm just interested in hearing about the different. Codes and standards that people are in the process of helping, um, promulgate and just be involved with. But yeah, I just wanted to hear you speak a little bit about your work on, um, 9 0 9 and nine 14, if you wouldn't mind. Oh, sure. Okay. So, um, well just for everyone, these two codes probably aren't the most well known codes out there.

Um, But NFPA 9 0 9 is the code for protection of cultural resource properties, museums, libraries, and places of worship. And then NFPA nine 14 is the code for protection of historic structures. I've been on the N F P a cultural resources committee. Um, Over 20 years, I believe. Uh, I think it was in the, in the nineties when I joined.

And so this committee, uh, develops these two codes and, um, know for those that don't know a whole lot about N FPA, um, all their code to me codes are developed, uh, by consensus. So each committee, they try to have a balance. Uh, of people on each committee from different sectors of fire protection. You know, when, when the committee I represent a user, right.

Um, we use the code to, uh, ensure our buildings are safe, but we also have others who are either like a fire marshal, or we ha we have people from the insurance industry. We have all the committee members from, you know, from other museums. Um, I'm trying to think what other groups we have, uh, when the committee special experts, did you say this?

Absolutely you're right. Special experts. People like you, who, you know, are coming from. The architectural engineering side or consulting side installers maintainers, right? Installers maintainers. Thank you, GU, having a brain cramp there. so that's okay. It gets, uh, it gets, it's hard when I'm having you do all the heavy lifting for the whole interview.

You know, I'm just leaning on you for these complex answers. Michael, give us, give us the, you know, the dictionary for all these codes and standards, but I appreciate your exposition. Uh, I mean, I've been, I feel like I've been so lucky to be on this committee, just cuz there's such a wide variety of, of uh, experience and, and depth of expertise on the committee.

Uh, so I've learned so much from, from being on this committee. Um, and so, you know, these, this, this committee develops these two standards and updates them every few years. Um, but really like if, for people in the museum world, um, these codes are, are such a great resource because it, you know, it's just not a set of standards.

There's just a lot of information in these codes. Um, like NFP nine and nine has multiple appendices on a, you know, they have statistics on, on fires in museums. It has. The whole appends on the fire ratings of archaic materials. Um, there's just a lot of very useful information for museum professionals and for, you know, fire protection professionals who are, you know, working in a, in a museum world.

Yeah, I think that, you know, uh, these might be, you know, not as in the, the cultural zeitgeist as, uh, some of the other standards for NFPA, like a 13 or a 1 0 1 or a 72, but you know, when I was working on my project with the museum occupancy, I was taking a look at, I think it was. Um, 9 0 9 and it had a wonderful table on like the pros and cons of different fire protection systems.

And, you know, as far as some of those factors that Michael and I were talking about with reliability and, you know, um, so it was a really great resource that, you know, I didn't even know existed. And so, you know, even though these might not be, um, referenced standards in the building code, Um, I think they're a fabulous resource for, um, individuals and also, uh, just a great, I mean, the, his, you know, there's a lot of, uh, great history in these code books about the codes and standards process and just, uh, fire protection in general.

So, Yeah, I'd say definitely something worth the time to go and take a look at these codes and they have some great insight for fire protection and life safety. Well, I think, you know, that was, I'm really glad you, you found that code when you're working. Um, when you're a museum project and, you know, I think there's a lot.

People out there, a lot of even fire protection professionals that may not even realize that that code exists and is, is a good resource. Um, so, um, you know, we certainly want to raise awareness that these codes are out there and that, um, They are a really good resource and, and they're really written, you know, not just for the fire protection professional, they're also written so that, you know, someone in just the museum world with no fire protection background can, can use them.

Yeah. That's a great note. You know, it's easy for me to get, uh, tonal vision on, you know, providing, uh, you know, fire protection systems, but. It's an important note that these codes and standards are available to the public and, you know, are available to people who are, um, more on the layman side of things, or maybe just less involved with this process than we are.

So that's a great, that's a great point. Yeah. And now they're actually free, right? Because NFPAs, um, you know, put their codes one line and provides free access. Yeah. You can go and take a look at 'em at any time. I've definitely had to Google NFPA documents while I was on site before to try and find something out on my phone, but that's a great, yeah, it's good to know that you can access those whenever.

I didn't know that for a long. Yeah. And it didn't used to be that way. If you know, you go back 10 years, 15 years, if you wanted a code, you had to buy each code individually or buy the entire set. Yeah. Mean that's a pain. , it's hard when they it's hard when they keep changing too. Yeah. Even though they didn't used to be as robust as they are now, but.

Yeah. So I just wanted to, um, kind of end the interview with some professional development topics. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to ask, um, what you saw as a meaningful trend in, you know, fire and life safety right now, I'm sure was somebody who, um, has their finger on the pulse. Um, in regards to fire and life safety, like yourself has some.

Yeah. Ideas of what that could be. Hmm. Okay. That's a, that's a good question. Um, sort of a overarching trend that, you know, I've seen for the past at least 15 years, I guess, is, you know, moving from a, a prescriptive, purely prescriptive approach to fire protection. Just, you know, employing the codes and that's it to, um, you know, looking at things from a more performance based approach, uh, you know, especially with the advancement in, uh, fire modeling, computer fire modeling, um, and actually being able to use different models together to, um, you know, be able to predict what's gonna happen.

In a space, if there's a fire and, and what kind of measures you can take to, um, you know, safeguard the people in the building. So I would say, you know, that's certainly a trend that's gonna happen. I mean, I don't think we're ever gonna go to just pure, uh, performance based approach. At least not in my lifetime, but, um, but there definitely.

And we do use, uh, a performance based approach from time to time. Not, no, certainly not for every situation, but, um, I think that's, you know, if I, if I was a young engineer, I'd certainly would make sure I, um, was up on computer modeling and performance based engineering. Definitely. Yeah, it seems like, uh, as the complexity of, um, buildings keeps increasing and, you know, we get more into the, the digital age.

Um, people are more and more comfortable with computer modeling or of some sort to backup these, um, you know, alternative approaches if you will. But yeah, I think a more flexible, um, you know, we. The performance based approach is when we need additional flexibility. You know, we have some, for example, we have some buildings that some of our museums are in buildings that are over a hundred years old, 150 years old.

And, um, you take a building like that and you try to apply the life safety code you know, of these buildings were built before life safety code was even around. Um, and we, and they're historic. So we can't just, uh, you. Blow holes in the side of the building and put additional exits. So yeah, so we, we, we need to take a more performance based approach and, and find other solutions, um, that don't fit neatly with the, uh, prescriptive code.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that, that, that's a great point. Um, the, the flexibility and approach and when you have, uh, more challenging, um, existing construction and I mean, that's not to mention, you know, uh, like site considerations with historic buildings, I'm sure you're dealing with some extreme, um, site constraints.

As well as, uh, you know, just dealing with historic structures and that sort of thing. So that's a great point. Um, I wanted to end with, um, you know, what kind of resources would you, would you tell people to. Go seek. If they wanted to learn more about, um, fire protection for, uh, museums or collections, or you could just keep it more broad in general, um, if you would like to, but yeah, I just wanted to pick your brain on where you go to, to find good information on those topics.

Well, probably the, the broadest, and if, you know, if you. If you're not a, if you're a fire protection person, but maybe not a fire protection engineer, I would start with the fire that NFPA fire protection handbook, um, you know, the handbook's written for, you know, people with in all different types of fields that have some interest in fire protection and, you know, it has incredible amount of information in, in the handbook.

um, so I think that's a great resource. And then, um, for the, for those in the, in the engineering side, I'd say the, uh, S F P E the society for fire protection engineers. Um, they have a lot of good resources and you can go on their website. Um, certainly their handbook is, uh, I think it's a two volume handbook now.

Um, Has incredible amount of information. And we, we certainly use that, that handbook. Um, you know, certainly, and we talked about NFPA 9 0 9, 9 14. Uh, that's a great resource, uh, for museum fire protection. Um, and then, you know, the, for those who are on sort of the engineering tech side, um, I think, you know, N set has a, a wealth of information and training.

Ed is the, uh, let me see if I get this right national Institute for a certification in engineering technologies. And, um, yeah. So if you're more on the tech side of fire protection is I think NY set is a great resource. Yeah, those are all, those are all great references. Yeah. I think that you can't get, uh, much more of premier fire protections, uh, you know, educational and, you know, just informational resources than SFP and, and FBA.

And. Yeah. As far as installation goes, it definitely seems like, um, N is ubiquitous with, uh, qualifications and just industry standard, um, competency. Yeah, we have, uh, Oh, I was gonna say, just at Smithsonian, we have a, a whole separate division that just maintains all of our fire systems across the institution.

And, uh, I know they, you know, they get nice at certified, uh, whether it's in, you know, fire alarm systems or sprinkler systems or, or, or special suppression systems. So we certainly rely on N. Cool. That's very interesting. Well, Michael, I just wanted to say thank you so much for coming on the show. You, you absolutely made my day for talking to me about the, the Smithsonian and the, and the different, uh, you know, um, the different topics about, um, your career.

I just wanna say, thanks. Well, Gus, thanks you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure talking with you and, um, I'm just thrilled that, uh, you invited. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.