Fire Code Tech

Welcome to episode 36 of Fire Code Tech. On this episode we have Michael Kinsey. This week we are talking about egress modeling, cognitive bias, and what it means to be a fire protection engineer in China. Michael has a truly fascinating and unique career being one of the only non-native fire engineers in China. Tune in to hear great perspective of fire protection engineering internationally and much more.

Additional Podcast Appearance:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/009-cognitive-biases-decision-making-in-evacuation/id1569099167?i=1000528787252

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-kinsey-%E9%87%91%E8%AF%9A-41650212/

What is your origin story in fire and life safety?

What kind of parallels do you find in computer science and fire engineering?

What egress modeling software are you proficient in?

How did you find your way to Shanghai as a fire engineer?

Would you speak on your expertise in egress modeling?

What are some of the cognitive biases and how do they play a role in fire and life safety?

How common is performance-based design versus prescriptive design in China?

Would you speak about your teaching role?

What trends do you see in fire and life safety?

Where do you like to consume information about professional development?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the.

You're in the right place. Hello. Welcome to episode 36 of fire code tech. On this episode, we have Michael Kinzie on episode 36 of fire code tech. We are deep diving into egress modeling. Fire engineering outside of the United States, interesting trends and topics in the industry, like how computer science and fire protection engineering overlap.

I really enjoyed speaking with Michael. He has a wonderful perspective and a truly unique journey in fire and life safety. We talked about prescriptive design performance based design and how that they are used to varying effect in, uh, Shanghai and other parts of China as compared to places like the us and the UK.

We also break into some really interesting research that Michael is involved with. That deals with evacuation procedures from a train don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. And please, if you could do us a big favor and rate us on apple podcast, that would help so much.

Let's get into the show anyways, Michael, will. I just want to thank you so much and, and welcome to the show. Uh, thanks for coming on. I appreciate your time. It's thanks for inviting me. Yeah. Well, I always like to get started with getting a sense of, you know, uh, I ask people how they got into the industry and, you know, it's always a kind of, uh, uh, roundabout path that, you know, unless you have family members and fire and life safety, but I always like to get started with, um, hearing a little bit about people's origin story.

Would you mind telling me about kind of how you found out about fire and life? Sure. So, uh, much like a lot of other people, I think who perhaps didn't do a fire engineering degree. Um, I kind of fell into fire engineering as it were. Uh, I was doing a, I've done a degree in computer science. Um, and during my final year project of my degree, I was, I was looking at encryption.

I was really interested in information security and, um, I was planning on going, doing a master's in, you know, um, that topic and my, um, supervisor at the time said. Would you be interested in doing a PhD? I said, oh yeah, I would be. Um, and then they said, well, um, uh, and this is at the university of Greenwich, um, where there is the fire safety engineering group, um, headed by, uh, professor ed Gallia.

Um, and they said, well, well, we have, we have some funding for doing a PhD. Um, would you be interested? Um, and I knew nothing about it. Um, so I said, well, can we, can we have a talk? Um, so we had a talk about what the kind of thing they were doing. Um, um, and eventually ended up doing a PhD, looking at, um, understanding how people behave in Highrise buildings, um, specifically with regards to using lifts for evacuation or elevators, and also.

Using escalators, um, for evacuation. And then how can we model that in a, an evacuation model? Um, and they wanted someone to, you know, to understand the behavior and then try and develop some, uh, computer models. Um, so that's how I got into the area, I guess, start with my first taste, a bit of fire engineering.

Um, although it was still very much academic and, um, Uh, focused on, you know, human behavior and, uh, computing. Um, and then after my PhD, um, I did a postdoc. Um, and then I thought, well, I, I really wanna start looking at how can I apply this, um, and work on some, you know, real building designs, um, and, um, That's when I, um, after, after attending a number of conferences throughout my PhD in postdoc, um, I've bumped into various people, um, from the, uh, company that I now work for called Arab and.

These, um, these fire engineers, um, seemed really smart, really passionate, and they had great things to say about Arab. Um, so after my postdoc, I, I applied to work for Arab, um, and as a fire engineer and, um, it was, I didn't really know a huge amount. Um, I, I certainly didn't appreciate the full breadth of, uh, things that fire engineers do.

Um, I was hugely naive, um, hugely ignorant, but I knew. Fire engineering involved or can involve the use of evacuation models. Um, but, uh, and that's how I came to work for Arab. Very cool. I'd like to, yeah, just double back. Uh, you know, the reason I got started with the podcast was kind of, cause I had started to, uh, kind of learn about, um, computer science.

and, um, a little bit of, uh, web programming. So I had to have a little bit of that programming knowledge. So I'm kind of fascinated that you started off with the, with the CS degree and then you stumbled into, to fire engineering. I think that's a kind of a remarkable, uh, through line, but yeah. What, what kind of, uh, I always think that the, the mindset of, um, people who.

Are involved with computer science and like the, the problem solving mentality of this, uh, this role or this, um, career is kind of similar to the problem solving nature. Of, um, engineers and how they're tasked with a kind of, uh, a different issue or a, a code problem. And they kind of have to figure it out and it's not always very well defined, but, uh, yeah, I don't know.

I guess that's just a general comment on, I think that's a fascinating part of your background, this, um, computer science path that you've, that you've had in your career. Yeah, I totally agree. Um, I think there's huge parallels with, uh, computer science, um, and, uh, fire engineering. Um, you know, we both, uh, both disciplines are involved with dealing with problems.

Um, they typically attract people who are curious and wanna find ways to solve them. Um, specifically when I think about my background in programming, um, programming is essentially. Looking at a system, um, deciding how we can break down a system into a series of instructions or in, um, to do something, um, and simplify it.

Um, so then we can do something with it. And I think, um, that's quite a lot. What engineers do we look at? Some very complex systems. We try to simplify it so we can make sense of it. And then we try to do something with it. Yeah. I love that process driven mindset. I try to bring some of that into, into what I, uh, you know, work.

You know, distilling the process of being a fire protection engineer down to it's salient points and, and try to have better documentation. And I don't know, I think there's just a lot of great lessons from the, the big tech industry that fire protection seems like it's kind of lagging or it's a little bit old school.

And so I, I always like kind of looking at, um, uh, industries that have kind of more cutting edge trends and trying to apply them. To fire and light safety. So I, I really am a big fan of that, that topic of the, the Zen diagram of the parallels between these two subjects. Absolutely. And I think, uh, very much now, so where many industries are particularly fire engineering are trying to look to adopt more digital tools and go through some kind of digital transformation.

Um, they become even more similar. . Yeah, and I wanted to, and I wanted to pick your brain since you do have some. Um, like coding background, um, you know, I always have like a interest in, um, where, you know, these different evacuation modeling softwares, and just like, you know, like FDS or the different egress modeling, softwares, like, um, kind of what.

Programming backbone that they have. I saw you had had some, uh, experience in C plus plus, but, um, and I have some like very rudimentary knowledge of, um, a couple different programming languages, but I didn't know if you had any insight to like, are these, um, different, um, life fire and life safety modeling programs, kind of all based on.

Some of the more, uh, low level, like sea languages, or I saw, uh, um, I forget on Twitter, you were talking to, uh, and I can't remember if it was or, uh, somebody else about that. Uh, oh yeah. Guillermo rain T was talking about, um, FDS being like some proprietary sort of, um, coding language. I thought that was really fascinating, but I didn't know if you had any exposition on that.

Yeah. So, um, as I understand, and I haven't programmed an FDS, FDS is open source, um, which means that anyone can go and have a look at it, look at the code, they can update it. Um, and that prevents a number of benefits. Of course, you need an active community to start updating it. Um, and I think there is a pretty active community in FDS, certainly in the research field where you get perhaps a PhD student come along, they wanna develop a sub component of the model.

Um, there is, um, an extension of FDS called FDS evac, um, which is supposed to be the evacuation model base, um, that is also open source and it's an extension of, uh, FDS. Um, but I, I don't think that's hugely used, not as, not nowhere near as common as some of the other evacuation models, which are effectively closed systems.

They're not open source. Um, so for example, uh, we have, you know, Pathfinder steps, mass motion, building Exodus. They tend to be. They're developed by, um, they're more classically developed. So they're developed by a, a software, uh, bunch of software developers. Um, and then you can't change the code. Um, interestingly, a lot of the evacuation models are incorporating things like, um, scripting tools, um, um, within them so that you can get access to the agent behavior and you can do some really quite powerful things with them.

That's very interesting. So do you have more experience with, uh, yeah. I just wanted to speak about like, uh, you know, the different programs that, uh, you have experience in or the ones that you've used most option, or is it more of the Pathfinder? I think I got to use that one in school a little bit, uh, very base level, like one, uh, something that you would be, you would cringe if you saw, but I think I've at least put one, uh, One of those models together, but yeah.

Which one do you have the, the most, uh, reps with. So within Arab, um, uh, the evacuation model and pedestrian model called mass motion is developed. Um, so we get access to that. Um, and that's probably the most common one that we use within Arab. Um, it's not obligatory that we use this and sometimes we do use other evacuation models, um, within the company.

Um, so for example, um, certain approving authorities may request that we use a certain model. So we also have used steps. Um, certain teams have used Pathfinder as well. Um, but certainly for my experience, um, considering I've been, you know, Arab a number of years, I've probably used mass motion the most before that I would've used building extras as that's what most of my PhD in postdoc were involved in develop.

I see. I see. So I wanted to talk a little bit more, you know, uh, you gave a great broad overview of, you know, your, um, time in college and your PhD. Um, but I just am still kind of fascinated, um, that you are, um, working out of Shanghai for Arab. Um, you know, how did you make this, uh, uh, in my mind it seems like such a big leap to go from.

Greenwich to, is that and all the way over to Shanghai, like how did you even find out did, was it just the position with the opening and you saw it and you were like, this sounds like it'll be a good fit or, yeah, I don't know if you had any thoughts about that. yeah, it's, it's a bit of a long story to be fair.

Um, uh, which I'll, I'll try and condense it. Um, I actually used to live in Shanghai, um, after my degree. Um, I, uh, I actually start initially started a PhD with the fire safety engineering group. Um, and I decided that I really fancied more of a break. Um, and, uh, I was really interested in Chinese history. Um, and, uh, I got offered a chance to go and, uh, to go on.

Going like a teaching holiday where I would help teach some kids and I would take them around China and it was a chance to travel. Um, and yeah, it was a, that was a great opportunity. So I went for two weeks, I thought, oh, this is a fantastic, really interesting country. Um, I'd love to come back here. Um, so then I decided, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna plan to come here.

Um, and, um, uh, and not really thinking about what I would do. I, you know, I came here, I taught English, I learned a bit of Chinese here. And then I decided that I, I. I miss the, the challenge and the interest of doing a PhD. Um, so I contacted my, uh, supervisor professor at gallery in the university of Greenwich, um, and said, look, do you have any, uh, PhD opportunities again?

He said, yep, we do. You can come back. Um, so then I, you know, I, I came back, um, and I always, really was interested in China still. So, um, then I did my PhD, my postdoc, um, I found Arab, um, and it coincidence that Arab has a, an office in. Shanghai and a number of other places within China. Um, and, uh, I, and my, my, um, my wife at the time, um, was, is Chinese and was very interesting coming back to be closer to her family.

Um, so that's when the conversations happened after working for while I said, well, do you think it's possible that I could transfer to our, um, a China based office? Um, and initially, um, it took a while to organize, to be. Because I think no other, um, no other foreigner has transferred to, uh, in, within the fire team has transferred to a mainland China office.

Um, most would typically go to, um, you know, Hong Kong where the working language is English, um, or perhaps another country. Um, but I, I, you know, I really request, I'd like to come here. So it took a little while to organize. Um, but Arab were absolutely fantastic. Um, the Arab UK fire leadership were fantastic as were the, um, east Asia leadership.

Um, and it was a bit of a, to be, so there wasn't an opening as such. I actually requested to come here. Um, and you know, there was a, you know, when I look back on it now, and this was over five years ago, um, there was, there was some elements of uncertainty because the, uh, the working language within the office here is Chinese.

Um, so there was a quick, you know, what, what would I do and, uh, what projects could I get involved in and things like that. Um, but here we are, you know, five and a half, uh, half years later. Um, and I'm still here. Um, and, uh, it's been an amazing whirlwind wide. Um, and I think, um, I think I'm perhaps the only foreigner fire engineer in the whole of China.

Um, not just within Arab, but within the whole country. I've never met another foreigner fire engineer in China. Wow. That's uh, beyond remarkable. I mean, uh, that is a pretty, it's a pretty wild story. I think that. Awesome. And fascinating did, uh, I'm sure that was, uh, quite an adjustment to come into, uh, department and, and have it, um, be so foreign.

And so, uh, you know, to be, you know, it's not like you're an, an outsider or anything, but it's. You're definitely. Uh, I don't know. I just, there are a few times in my life where I've had that feeling to be like, so engrossed in another culture like that. So it sounds really intimidating to me. Um, so I'm, uh, impressed, I guess, I guess is what I'm trying to say, that you were able to go into a situation like that and, and, you know, make it work.

It sounds that's awesome. That's cool to hear. Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly it. I think you need a bit of, um, I think whenever, whichever country, if you were gonna transfer, which I would say I would highlight Arab is really great for supporting you. If you wanna go and travel, you want to go to another country to work for a few years.

Um, they have a system called long term assignment where you can go to a country, say for two years to get some experience, then you go back to your home country. Um, I would say whichever country you go to, you're gonna need a certain level of courage and a certain level of ignorance. Um, ignorance may need to protect you.

Or thinking about all the things that could go wrong. Um, and, uh, I certainly coming to China. And when you think about the job of a fire engineer, our job is to communicate with people, um, to read codes. Um, like I come to China, the codes are in Chinese and people are mainly communicating in Chinese, which I can't do.

Um, or I couldn't do very much at the time. Um, I didn't even think about that. Um, so it's been an absolute, fascinating ride. Wow. So how, how fast did it take you to, to feel like that you were, um, navigating these waters with great proficiency? Uh, this like, uh, it's the whole, the whole role is so heavy, like you said, in communication and, and based on conveying like a set of design principles.

How long did it take you to feel like you, you had it licked? I don't think I've ever felt like I have it licked. Um, and, and you know what, even in the UK, um, I constantly felt I was presented with new challenges. There was so little repetition. I was, every building was new. Every design team was very slightly different.

Um, So even the, even where we had like a repeat item of work, it was different. Um, so I think that trained you up to be adaptable. And I think as a fire engineer, you have to be adaptable. And I think those trades just got magnified. When I came to China, I had to be adaptable. Um, the way things work, um, in China is very, very different in fire engineering terms.

Um, and. You just have to, um, I was, I should also highlight that I was supported by a fantastic bunch of fire engineers in the out fire China team, um, who were really, really helpful. They're not just my colleagues, they're my friends. They're affecting my extended family here. Um, because I don't have, you know, you know, the classical support networks that you have around you when you are in your home country.

Yeah. You know, I, I, uh, my only situation which I could even draw parallel to was I moved like north in the us, like seven hours. And I remember the kind of, uh, detached, like, uh, feeling I had when, you know, I had a flat tire or something and I couldn't call on a family member and I didn't have like a. A real consolidated friend group, but they still could, you know, drive and come see me.

So I, yeah, I don't, that's pretty, um, kind of wild to think about that, uh, whole support structure of your life kind of uprooting and. And, uh, finding your way someplace else. That's awesome. Um, I wanted to talk about, uh, and you touched on it a little bit, like the codes and standards process, um, in, in China and like the different, um, kind and how you navigate that, you know, I'm, I'm aware of how it works and.

Uh, the us, but I'm always fascinated to speak with individuals who operate in a different, um, set of codes and standards or different process. Cuz I've found that even when it's it's the same, it's different. So yeah. So I think, um, I, so just for my experience, obviously I've would worked in the UK. Um, I've worked on projects in the middle east, um, adopting, uh, you know, NFPA us standards.

Um, So, and then now I've got experience in, uh, China. Um, and I would say within China, uh, the broad principles of what we're trying to achieve, regardless of which country we win, um, is the same. We're trying to achieve life safety and maybe some extra, um, business continuity, um, within the fire safety, um, engineering process, um, the method on how they achieve that and the prescriptive requirements.

Vary. Um, and also the approvals process varies quite a bit within China. Um, you obviously have someone or a body that approves your, um, designs, um, but they operate in very different ways. Um, in addition, um, China is massive. Um, I, I think China has a population, which is twice the size of the us plus Europe combined.

Um, yeah. Yeah. So what that kind of means is that, uh, you might work on one project in certain location, um, and they'll require certain things, um, even adopting one stand at one fire safety code, but then you go somewhere else and they might interpret it in a slightly different way, or they might even have their own fire safety standards as.

Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. In the, in the us, and I'm sure in other parts of the world, there's a kind of, gradi inside the same code, but. Wholesale adopt different fire safety standards within, uh, within China. That's very interesting. Um, yeah, I definitely don't have, uh, the real scale for like the, the, the massiveness of China and like the population.

It, uh, is kind of baffling to me. I mean, just staring at the numbers of the, you know, the, what is it, the one point, uh, 3 billion or probably plus. Billion people in China, it's a kind of, uh, overwhelming to think about, but that's, uh, that's fascinating. Yeah. And culturally it's hugely diverse. Um, and I think once you begin to understand the language and you start communicating and seeing people, um, you really, you recognize how culturally diverse it is even though it's all, uh, China, um, there's actually lots of different subcultures within China.

Hmm. Very interesting. That makes sense. So I wanted to get into a little bit of, uh, and, uh, we just spoke about it a little bit, but my perceived, uh, special your, my perception of your specialty and kind of fire and life safety, which is like, um, evacuation modeling. Is that a fair characterization? Yeah, I would say I have a, an expertise, a level of expertise in understanding how people behave, um, and then applying that within the design process.

So for example, through the use of evacuation models or hand calculations, um, or just thinking about what people might do and using that to inform design, That's that's awesome. Yeah. I was listening to your episode with, uh, on the, the fire science show and I didn't make it through quite all of it, but I think like at least 40 minutes in, I was really enjoying the, you speaking about.

Um, some of the different, um, biases and, um, other topics that you have, uh, researched about as far as, um, people and how they behave in fires. So some of that, you know, I I've, I've had a, uh, Um, a class that talks about, uh, egress and human behavior and fire and, you know, pre evacuation time. And, but still some of these concepts, um, felt really, really new to me.

I didn't know if you would speak a little bit more about, um, just generally brought overview of, um, some of these biases and some of the other, uh, different, um, egress topics that you have researched. Sure. The bias research, the cognitive biases during, um, looking at human behavior and evacuation decision making, um, sort of came about through, uh, uh, discussions and being recommended to read a book called thinking fast and slow by Daniel Canman, um, which is sort of the grandfather of, uh, cognitive biases.

Um, and then we thought, well, how can we. This looks really interesting. And we think this, there could be something here and applying it to how people behave during fire evacuations. Um, so we got together a team, so it was, uh, myself. Um, we had, uh, professor Steve Quinn at movement strategies in the UK. Uh, we had Dr.

Max Eder. Who's now at the NRCC in Canada and Dr. Erica Kowski who wasn't N is. Now at our MIT in Australia. Um, and we thought, well, how can we, uh, let's put together some ideas and just think about, um, what we could do here. So we started looking at, we first looked at what is the current, um, what is the current literature and what the common things people do in fires that we know, and it's been documented.

And then we thought, well, maybe we could. Um, instead of just say these behaviors happen, maybe we could look through the lens of a cognitive bias, um, and that might help us decide why the behaviors occur. Um, so that was one of the first steps. Um, and then we start thinking, well, what are some of the other things we know people do?

And how could we link that to a bias? Um, And we eventually came to look at classifying them according to the protective action decision model, um, to try and identify trends in the cognitive biases. Um, I mean, to, to highlight what I think, um, cognitive biases are effectively aware people over focus on certain information at the expense of other more information.

Um, so it's a fallacy in the decision making process and generally it leads to a negative. It doesn't have to leave to a negative outcome. It can actually leave to a positive outcome, but there's a, a, the issue is with the decision making process itself. Um, so we identified a number of biases, which, um, we think could occur during fire evacuations, and we can link them to known behaviors and suggest some new behaviors.

Um, so we hope this might offer a new way. Um, certainly for future research to consider why people make certain decisions. Maybe they're being biased in some. Yeah. Uh, that's a great piece of, uh, exposition on you, you know, the incipients of your research. Um, I really, uh, took it to heart. And when you're kind of talking about the.

the primary bias of, you know, uh, if you have an exit that you always use, you know, what's the chance to, when something goes wrong, that you're not gonna use that exit. Um, and you know, or if you, when you try something the first time and it works out, then you have a, a tendency to always, uh, fail to that decision.

Or you stop thinking about, um, The choice. And I can just, uh, take a look at my life very quickly and see that I always use the same excess in that, you know, like even extrapolating it to, uh, you know, other parts of life, like, you know, you go to a restaurant and you have something you like there, and then you don't wanna change it.

It's like you can see very, uh, easily how these biases kind of, uh, seep out into all the different parts of your life. So, It made a very vivid picture for me when you were, um, speaking about that with . Yeah. I mean, the world is really, really complicated. Um, you think even the most simple decisions can actually actually under the underlying, um, mechanics can be really complicated, um, to come to a decision.

Um, so as you know, we can't process all the information as humans. So we have to simplify the world, um, much like an engineer. We need to simplify things to make decisions. Um, every day we, when we have decisions, we have to simplify them and we could do that using something called heuristics, where we develop rules.

Um, uh, like for example, if I look out the window and I see some clouds, I think it it's gonna rain. Um, perhaps I don't have time or I don't have access to my phone to check the weather forecast. Um, so we do this, um, this simplification can be, um, can take the form of adopting something called, uh, substitution, where you get a complicated question and you substitute it for a more simple one.

And then you answer the more simple one. Uh, so a good example is if I ask you how happy are you with your life? Um, this is actually. Really complicated question. You could consider all manner of things. Yeah. But what you might do in your subconscious is think, well, how happy am I recently? And if you're happy recently, you'll say, yeah, I'm happy with my life.

So you've done that substitution, um, to answer a more complex question. Yeah, I like that. That's good. I was really, um, kind of resonated with your, um, bit of information where you were talking about the difference between the, the active brain and the sort of subconscious brain. And something that I, I think about a lot in life is trying to, trying to free up the subconscious brain, which has, uh, all the metaphorical horsepower and, you know, the active brain being the, the one that takes more energy and, you know, is, is kind of more stressful for the body to engage.

But, uh, as a professional, like we were talking. Um, in the first five years of my career, I've been just, you know, trying to get to the point where some of these, uh, the more difficult paths or tasks of being a fire protection engineer have, uh, start to become more subconscious and kind of, uh, lightened the mental load of it all.

But. Yeah, I don't know. That's kind of a random tangent, but, uh, I was just thinking about that, uh, your discussion of the, the subconscious and the conscious and, and you know, how these, um, biases are, or these, uh, different, um, actions are really deep seated. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, um, so after initially doing our, looking at cognitive bias in, uh, fire evacuations, we, we decided, well, actually you could apply this to fire engineers, practicing fire engineering.

Um, so we actually wrote another paper, um, looking at cognitive biases in fire engineering and propose some potential ways. We might be able to mitigate some of these biases. Um, so we've, we've come up with a as well as identify biases, um, which, um, that fire engineers might exhibit, um, we then decided, well, how can we, how can we stop them?

Cuz I, I really like doing practical papers. I don't like just writing papers saying, oh, we've identified something. Thanks, bye. Bye. We really wanted to say, well, how can we, how might we be able to mitigate some of them? Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. I think. It's interesting to try to see the common pitfalls or the rule of thumb things in industry, or, uh, just a more baseline, um, implications or biases of what people do and, and common mistakes.

And I'm a big fan of, you know, research, not just for research, but to, uh, solve a practical, uh, problem and, and make the world better and, you know, further, uh, fire and life safety. But, um, yeah, I, uh, I wanted to ask about a little bit more of your kind of project work experience. Um, I didn't know if you had a, um, a recent or maybe historic project that you had worked on, that you would be able to share the listeners to give, uh, to give them and to give me like a, a greater sense of the kind of work that you're involved.

Sure. Um, so if I I'll talk about the projects that I've been in or some of the projects I've been involved in China, um, I would say by and large, the scales of the building, um, that I work on in China are, uh, some of them are absolutely huge. Um, they involve many superlatives in tallest biggest or something like.

Um, there's so much being developed in China at the moment. Um, that it's so big, it's so tall. Um, it presents some really interesting, uh, challenges from a fire engineering perspective, um, to be specific. Um, one of the most, one of the first projects I worked on in China was for the largest Starbucks in the world.

Um, at the time. Which was the Shanghai, Starbucks roastery, um, that presented a lot of interesting challenges, um, from fire engineering perspective. Um, most not be, I think, um, for anyone who's been to a Starbucks roastery and they're, they're, they're, they're developing more of them now. Um, they have this, uh, big piece of equipment, which roasts the coffee within the actual shop.

And you can see this. It's really interesting. It, it it's really fascinating. Um, but this equipment obviously, um, uh, is not typical for a Starbucks, uh, coffee shop. Um, so we had to consider how would, how does that factor in, within the fire strategy? Um, and how does it factor in, you know, how they want to use the space?

That's very interesting. I'm a huge, uh, fan of coffee and, and, uh, fan of Starbucks too, but. Uh, that's I was just, uh, speaking today about, uh, was somebody funny enough that was talking about a huge, um, coffee roasting process and some sort of, uh, uh, offset of, uh, some hazardous material with making a cold brew or something.

Um, if you had a giant roastery, but, uh, so that's interesting that you bring up, uh, um, that process of that, uh, Fire roast in those beans, but I, uh, a huge coffee fan, but that's very interesting. So you, I, you talked a little bit about like, Like a fire, like strategy. It, it sounds a little bit more informal than what I'm used to.

And, uh, I, uh, my sense of the fire and life safety codes abroad is that, um, a lot of other places in the world are far more performance based than the, the us. But, um, yeah, I. I don't know if you have some sense of like, uh, prescriptive, weighted verse performance based design. It sounds like with the scale of what you're dealing with in China, that you would, uh, almost, uh, have to be, um, well versed in performance based design, because it doesn't sound like these buildings can fit into any sort of, uh, easy prescriptive cookie cutter model.

Yeah, you'd be surprised actually. Um, I would say that, um, by and large, um, and I come from the UK, I would say performance based designs. Um, uh, I is far more common in the UK. Um, and perhaps Europe as a whole than say China. Um, there's a bit more, um, uh, there's far more, uh, Risk aversion to using performance based design.

I mean, this set, um, just to clarify, when I say performance based design, most buildings will be a combination of performance based design and prescriptive design. Um, and you'll perhaps use performance based design, um, for, for a very specific aspect of your building. Um, so if we think about China, um, Certainly compared to say the UK, it's not as prevalent to use performance based design.

This said, um, there are, um, there are certain situations where it's more common, um, or it's more standard to use performance based designs purely because of the requirements within the prescriptive fire coats. Um, so for example, um, Cert certain, certain things like, uh, airports, um, typically have large, uh, open plan areas with very big fire compartments.

Um, and a unique thing about the China fire code is its concept of fire. Compartments is different to the rest of the world. Um, so the definition of a fire compartment say, um, in the most of the rest of the world is a room that's enclosed in fire resistant construction. And we would refer to that as a fire compartment and within China, the concept of a fire compartment, um, which is, um, the Chinese as, uh, chaong tu, um, is actually slightly different is actually an area or group of rooms, which you enclose in a three hours fire resistant construction.

Um, and there are, there are limitations on the area. So it might be 4,000 meters squared, 5,000, whatever it is, depending on the use. Now each as well as divide up your building, according to these fire compartment sizes, each fire compartment is almost treated like a separate building in terms of egress and firefighting.

So each fire compartment needs at least two separate. Escape stairs or exits and also a firefighting lift. So what that means is that you're typically gonna get more stairs or requirement for more stairs, um, per building in China than perhaps you would in other places. Um, because every fire department have to be almost like a self-contained unit.

Wow. That's really interesting. That's, uh, uh, really different than how the us would. Uh, address a building of user, you were saying, uh, like 4,000 to 5,000 square meters, uh, for the, for the, you know, English unit users, that's like, uh, 4,000 square meters is about, uh, 43,000 square feet. So that's, uh, you know, like, um, we work on buildings all the time that are like to be limited.

Limited combustible construction that are, you know, uh, well over 60,000, uh, square feet, or could be in that similar range without any, uh, uh, rated construction like that. So it's kind of interesting for me to hear that there's only very specific situations in which you would ever have a three hour fire separation, which is a pretty significant fire separat.

a absolutely. Um, and that's for any class, um, I should say those, those numbers. I mentioned about the area limits. They change according to the building types. Sure. Um, so the higher, the risk, you know, the, the, the, the smaller they are, um, but in a similar fashion to, you know, us and UK fire codes, um, when you provide sprinklers, they provide, um, added benefits to your design.

So you can perhaps increase travel distances. You can increase your compartment size and things like. That was an interesting point. You made about, you know, how performance based design is used, but really in very specific situations that have, uh, um, well, I don't know if excessive is the right word, but more strict, um, uh, limitations on the, the use case, uh, maybe is a better way to say it, but in the us, like I.

Barely used any performance bases on my entire career with like hundreds of projects, uh, designed, I maybe have seen like, um, you know, well, I don't know, maybe one or two, and it's really only very specific in the us. Like, um, there's a big added benefit for smoke control systems, or if you have a really, um, tight.

Uh, egress component in a, you know, a historic building or something. Uh, you know, if you basically, if, if you need it in a pinch, uh, in some of the larger jurisdictions, you could use performance based design, but in some of the smaller areas in the us, they wouldn't, they wouldn't know what to do with it.

Dave, you brought 'em a report. I'm sure. Probably similarities for you as well, but, um, yeah, I've not had much experience with it. So it's interesting for me to, for, to hear about. Yeah, I think, um, to, to touch on performance based design within China, um, typically, uh, if we have a very complex project, um, or something which deviates from the code, then there is a standard method of assessing a performance based design.

And in terms of approval, they would have to go through something called an expert panel. and what that is is, um, and that's anywhere wherever you are in China, they have to go through an expert panel review, and that's a series of maybe seven experts. Um, maybe not from necessarily the jurisdiction where the project is, but they might be, um, there's a pool of them nationally.

Um, and then they would all review, uh, the performance based analysis or the design, and then they would give their feedback. Um, so, I mean, in the UK, we might call that something like a third party review. However, here it's, you know, seven people all independent, um, looking at this. Um, wow. So it's, um, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty heavy stuff.

Um, when you go through that sounds rigorous. Yes. Yes. Um, so it, it adds also variation. And I think this is a wider issue with adoption of performance based design. When you get lots of people involved, um, you know, you can get designs being pulled in various directions. Um, yeah, it is a very, uh, rigorous process, um, through checking, um, And I, and I think, you know, the adoption performance based design is, you know, there's some common challenges regardless of which country are in, um, ensuring consistency, um, and ensuring high quality, making sure that it's not being misused, whether intentionally or unintentionally, um, you know, challenges that we face here as well.

Wow. That's uh, yeah, sometimes I worry that, uh, enough oversight is being done. But in that instance, I would be worried about the, uh, the issue being taken too far, uh, with seven, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's difficult enough to get, uh, one very experienced authority having jurisdiction. You know, with the third party review to in a big enough jurisdiction to, to buy off on a co-design, but seven, it, that seems like that would be very difficult to, to get consensus on, uh, the methodology and the assumptions used, but, well, I think that's, uh, really interesting.

No, you're absolutely right. Um, it is, um, it's certainly interesting. It's been really interesting for me, um, because some of, some of the experts, the experts range in their backgrounds, they're not all, you know, um, people with expertise in evacuation modeling, um, and fire modeling and things like that. Um, so it does, it adds, um, another, um, string to considerations when we're looking at, you know, performance based.

So I've seen some, uh, pictures on social media of you doing, uh, evacuations, uh, and different, um, kind of different, uh, uh, simulations of evacuations from trains. I think that's super interesting. Uh, we were talking before the. The, uh, podcast got started about Brian Hoskins at Oklahoma state university and in school, he used to do, uh, some different egress, uh, drills on us in the student union, which is kind of a, a big building with, uh, and he would record the student's movements, given a set of instructions and kind of see how we all kind of took a different winding way out of the student union.

Yeah, I would love to hear about, uh, uh, what and why you're doing these, uh, um, evacuations from trains. So the evacuation train research is, um, It's quite, it's a really interesting project. I mean, it's a commercially funded project. It's not a, a government funded project or anything like that. Um, and, uh, essentially we're working with, uh, Chinese trained manufacturers to, uh, conduct evacuation research.

Um, understand a bit more about how people might behave. During an evacuation of a train, um, look at some of the influencing flack factors and then decide, well, um, now we know this, um, first of all, can we develop models, evacuation models of them that are fairly realistic? Um, because if, if we can, then that means that we can use modeling evacuation modeling as a tool to inform the design.

And then the next stage is, well, how can we, uh, how can we improve the design of these trait? Very cool. Very cool. I'm a huge fan of trance, even though the us is, uh, fairly lacking in, uh, that kind of transportation to at least, um, there's not been much of it done in, uh, a lot of the country and, uh, a long time, but always enjoy when I get to go to other places in the world that have more developed, uh, uh, train systems.

Yeah, it's um, I mean, I'd say, uh, you know, China is the Mecca of high speed trains development. Um, it has the biggest high speed train network, um, and it's developing, um, not only the network, but the trains on them as well. Um, it's, it's so convenient, um, living in such a large country, um, that you can get access to really fast trains.

Um, we have the fing, how going from Shanghai to Beijing, um, and that can do it in like four and a half hours. Um, and I think that's a top speed of 350 kilometers per hour. Wow. That is impressive. That's impressive. Well, I wanted to ask a little bit about, uh, I wanted to ask about, um, your research at the Shanghai Institute of, or not research, but your guest professorship at the Shanghai Institute of technology, um, what are you teaching some courses there, or, or what's kind of that role look like for.

Yeah. So, um, I am a, a guest professor at the Shanghai Institute of technology. Um, and I, um, lecture on the masters of safety engineering course, they have there, um, which is a general purpose, uh, safety engineering course. Um, it's not focused on fire. Um, and I, I give a lecture on, um, I give a number of lectures, a part of a, a wider fire safety module on human behavior and evacuation modeling.

Um, so we teach them about the things people do during fire evacuations, and then we teach them how to use, um, evacuation models. Cool. Very neat. Very neat. That's uh, always, um, interested in spreading the word about, um, anybody teaching safety or, or fire, uh, safety. Um, so I always like hearing about people who have teaching roles.

I enjoy, uh, just, uh, talk and spread the word about that stuff. Um, yeah, so I always like to kind of round out the interview with, uh, so a couple professional development topics. Anytime I get a chance to catch somebody who is passionate about the, what they do, I like to, to pick their brain about the, the resources they like and, and what they see is, uh, trending in the industry.

But yeah, I just wanted to start off with asking is. In your, in your role or just, um, more broadly, um, as a professional, uh, what kind of trends do you see in, uh, fire and life safety or business in general? I think I see, um, kind of two parallel strands of fire engineering. There's increased development in, um, refining and increasing the scope of prescriptive, um, requirements in fire codes.

Um, and we need this because we're, we're using ever new materials on projects. Um, the prescriptive fire codes are trying to be more flexible. To accommodate different building designs, which is fantastic. Um, at the same time, we're developing ever more sophisticated tools to conduct performance based analysis.

So, you know, uh, CFD models, evacuation models, structural fire engineering models, they're all becoming more sophisticated. Um, I think, uh, so there's kind of two things developing F, which is amazing. Um, I think there. Where there is a bit of, um, something which needs to be developed more is the interface between the two.

Um, so, you know, identifying, giving clear, tangible guidance as to when it may be acceptable to use performance based design. Um, there is, I still feel in certain circles as a bit of distrust for performance based design. Um, there's a fear of misuse. Um, there's also a fear of wide vari. Um, in, um, not in only using it, but also in approvals.

Um, so I think in the future, I would like to see, uh, a better marrying of the two, um, with more, um, tangible, clear guidance, um, cause at the moment it's quite high level and I think that creates some uncertainty. Um, and when you're face uncertainty, um, the, the warm, you know, the warm feeling of prescriptive guidance is typically what people veer toward.

Wow. That's a great perspective. I've not anybody heard that or at least worded in that way before I've heard a lot of people who are, you know, hardcore performance based design or, you know, some old foggy that are, you know, um, party line, prescriptive design, and that's just the way it needs to be. But, um, I like that sentiment that, you know, we need to find a better way to marry the.

And to, uh, you know, provide the, the best option, but not be per afraid of performance based design. If we can, um, be assured that there is good engineering practice involved. I think that's a wonderful sentiment. E exactly. I think it's about fitness for purpose. It's about being able to be, provide flexibility in the tools we use so we can help design these fantastic buildings.

Um, I think everyone's on the same page with our motivations. It's just the means by which we do that. I think that we need to do better at. Yeah, for sure. That's great. Um, yeah. On this, uh, professional development topic, uh, where do you like to go, uh, get your information as a professional, uh, where do you go to consume, um, content or, or just look for resources to learn about, um, fire and life safety or just business in general?

I think, um, when I first came into the field, um, I used, you know, um, looking at fire research journals, um, which were fantastic. Um, the, uh, you know, the magazines from say the S F P um, um, the. SFP handbook, which is an amazing resource, um, and various other guidance documents like that. Um, I would say more recently, certainly within the last few years, for me, there's a lot more informal.

Education and learning material online, which anyone can get access to for free, um, loads of researchers, um, commonly post, you know, links to their papers or things that they're thinking about on social media, like Twitter, there's now podcasts, you know, like yours, uh, and, um, the fire science show, um, Which provide a great, fascinating way for you to learn about or manner of topics that perhaps you wouldn't normally be exposed to in your everyday jobs.

Um, so I think the key is, um, You know, variety and, uh, find, find a source that really you can connect with, you know, on a personal level. Cause you have to find it. Interesting. Yeah. That's a great point. That's a great point. I love that. It's all about, um, in what way are you gonna be the most likely to sustain cuz that's the way that you're gonna keep up to date.

You know, that's a big reason why I wanted to start the, the podcast is because that is the way that I consume new information, the easiest, uh, I, you know, with your podcast with Boje, I, I listen to so many podcasts that I'll just turn it up to 1.5 times speed. And, and my brain just kind of Whis away, Whis away on my commute to work.

And I love, I absolutely love that. That that is something that's becoming more prevalent. Are these, um, kind of alternative, uh, more candid conversations about, um, what we do cuz I think it's, uh, so fascinating, but those are all great tips, Michael. Well, Michael, I want to thank you so much for, uh, spending some time today.

Speaking with me about fire and life safety. It's been an absolute. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening, everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

Hello all! Welcome to episode 16 of Fire Code Tech. On this episode we are talking about how to determine the hazard for an occupancy. We take a look in this episode about the codes and standards around proper occupancy classification.  Don't forget to check out an additional episode about hazard determination on patreon.com/firecodetech

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly.

Inside of the context of a normal interview. Hello wall. Welcome to episode 16 of the solo cast of fire code tech. On this episode, we're talking about hazard determination. So one of the first steps and most important steps of designing a fire sprinkler system is determining the hazard. When I was learning how to design sprinkler systems.

In my first role in the industry, I found this to be one of the most difficult topics. There are a couple different things and, you know, just parts of being a professional that there aren't a lot of hacks for other than time and experience and reps and sets. And I think this is one of them. So I wanted to break into.

How I learned to, you know, determine hazard some tips and where places, where you can look to learn more about the subject and also just to explore the process of it and to dive into the codes and standards around hazard determination, and some of the different approaches there are. Applying a hazard to a, a building or a portion of a building.

Don't forget to subscribe and follow us on social media. So you never miss an episode. Also, if you could please, please, uh, smash the like button and give us a review on apple podcast. That would be such a big help. Let's get into the episode. So we talked a little bit about hazard determination in our episode.

Hydraulic calculations. And I started to get into quite a long stint about, uh, how to quantify a hazard. And I realized that this probably needs to be in an episode of its own. So here we go. Here's that episode. So the primary document for installing fire sprinkler systems in the United States is N F eight 13.

Which is gonna be the document that talks about how to quantify hazards. Some of the different characteristics of said hazards and, uh, some of the pertinent definitions for the process that we're talking about. There are other places where you can find information about hazard determination, like the building code and the fire code.

But I'd say first and foremost, we start with NFPA 13. So when I was learning about hazard determination, NFPA edition that I was using was the 2013 edition, which was what was adopted in Omaha at the time when I was starting to work. But, uh, the 2019 edition of the standard no longer has hazard determination in the same area, uh, as it was reorganized substantially in the 2019.

So in the 2013 edition, we're looking at chapter five classifications of occupancies and commodities. So in the 2019 edition of the standard, it's in chapter four where it describes, uh, light hazard, ordinary hazard one and two and extra hazard one and two. So let's go over the differences and similarities between the.

2013 and 2019, uh, classifications of hazard for occupancy. So you could say hazard determination or occupancy classification, or you can, there's a variety of terms, but basically we are trying to quantify the combustible loading or the amount of material in a space. That can catch on fire and sustain combustion and sort of, um, quantify that hazard, um, in broad terms so that we can apply, uh, densities.

So how much water per square foot is appropriate for how much combustibles? So in the 2013 edition, there's a little bit more of a wordy explan. So light hazard is described as light hazard occupancy shall be defined as occupancies, a portion of other occupancies where the quantity and or combustibility of contents is low and fires with relatively low rates of heats of release are expected.

If we take a look at the 2019 version of. This definition, it stated a little differently, and I would say more concisely. It says the following shall be protected with light hazard occupancy criteria and this standard. Then it says spaces with low quantity and combustibility of contents. So, uh, a lot more to read in between the lines with this second statement in N FPA 13, 20, 19 edition.

So in either case that's a very. Definition, you know, how do I, what, who defines what a, you know, light combustible loading or what a low heat, uh, release rate is. And so, uh, the standard doesn't explicitly state these things, but they do offer NX material to guide your interpretation of these, these guidelines.

So if you look at the information. In the annex corresponding to this portion or definition of light hazard occupancies, you can find, uh, you know, 16 examples of, uh, in the 2013 edition of light hazard occupancies. And so in time you will learn, um, through application of. Hazard determination and, you know, uh, reps and sets and looking at different buildings, uh, what spaces constitute, uh, low combustible loading.

And so, you know, examples given in the annex of light hazard are animal shelters, churches, clubs, Eves, and, uh, Eves and overhangs. Hospitals, including animal hospitals and veterinarian facilities, institutional facilities, kennels libraries, and several large stack rooms, museums, nursing, or convalescent homes, offices included data processing, residential restaurant seating areas, theaters, auditoriums, excluding stages in presidium and unused addicts.

So I probably didn't need to read all of those, but I wanted to give a good idea of. uh, what these light hazard occupancies look like. So when I think of light hazard occupancy, traditionally, I think of, uh, business occupancy, uh, low combustible loading, kind of sparse, uh, you know, desks or seating arrangements, um, nothing industrial or.

so storage, like moving on the next two categories are ordinary hazard one and ordinary hazard two. When looking in a ordinary hazard and extra hazard, ordinary hazard one and extra hazard, one are less hazardous than ordinary hazard, two and extra hazard. Two ordinary hazard group. One occupancies shall be defined as occupancies or portions of other occupa.

Where combustibility is low. Quantities of combustibles is moderate. Stockpiles of combustibles do not exceed eight feet and fires with moderate rates of heat release are expected. Ordinary hazard group one in the 2019 edition is stated as the following, the following shall be producted with oh one occupancy criteria in this standard.

Number one spaces with moderate quantity of and low combustibility of content. Stockpiles. Uh, this is the second, uh, option stockpiles of contents with low combustibility that do not exceed eight feet. So when I think of ordinary hazard, one group occupancies, I think of rims that might contain stores of materials.

Um, maybe more than you might expect general storage and business buildings, buildings, maybe, uh, janitors closet with, uh, stockpiles of extra materials. Um, just some rooms and buildings that are more hazardous, uh, occupied and sparsely loaded combustible. And so it's really just the next step up and is also, uh, very common in a low hazard occupancy.

Here are a couple of examples of ordinary hazard group, one, occupancies, automobile parking and showrooms, bakeries, beverage manufacturing, canneries, dairy products, manufacturing, and processing electronics, plants, glass, and. Products manufacturing, laundries, restaurant service areas, pork caches, and mechanical rooms.

So what you can tell about most of these different examples of group one group, one ordinary hazard, one occupancies is that there are, uh, combustibles more than average in just a general sense, but they're fairly non combustible. And there is just a moderate amount of 'em notice that there is a storage height threshold of less than eight feet.

This is important. Remember that when we get in excess of 12 feet, we are in high powered storage, uh, classification by the building code. Moving on to ordinary hazard group two ordinary hazard group two is described as the following. The following shall be protected with oh two occupancy criteria for this standard spaces.

With moderate high, moderate to high quantity of spaces with moderate to high quantity and combustibility of contents. And the second part of this description is stockpiles of contents with moderate to high combust combustibility that do not exceed 12 feet. There are quite a lot of different examples of ordinary hazard group two, but let's rip off the first 10 agricultural facilities, Barnes and stable cereal mills, chemical plants, ordinary confectionary products, distilleries, dry cleaners, exterior loading.

Do docks. Note that exterior loading docks only use for loading and unloading of ordinary combustible Chevy classified as oh two for the handling of flammable and combustible liquids, hazardous materials, or were utilized for storage, exterior loading docks, and all interior loading docks should be protected based on the act actual occupancy and the materials handled on the dock.

If the materials were actually stored in that configuration, while I almost made it all the way through that without messing up. But. I guess you have to live through one mess up. And then the last two are feed mills and horse stables. So there are a couple more, uh, examples about 20 more actually. And so what you can think about ordinary hazard too, is we really start to get into some pretty situations, uh, some different manufacturing and, um, uh, high storage areas.

And we're really starting to get close to, um, uh, miscellaneous storage of fairly dangerous things. And so I don't have a lot of great, um, examples. I'd say a really good one is repair garages. I think that pretty much perfectly embodies what I think of at ordinary hazard group two occupancy. And yeah, so think of it.

It's, uh, definitely more dangerous. Could potentially have some, uh, flammables and combustibles, but obviously that has to be limited. So, yeah. So I think I'm going to end it at ordinary has a group two and in the solo cast bonus episode on the Patri. We will finish up extra hazard and break into classification of commodities, maybe.

So thank you all for listening and we'll see you next time on fire code. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

Welcome to episode 15 of the solocasts Fire Code Tech. On this episode we are taking a dive into the international building code. More specifically we are taking a look at the first couple chapters and accessing their importance and structure. Don’t forget to check out patreon.com/firecodetech if you would like to listen to more solocast episodes.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview.

Hello, all welcome to episode 15 of the solo cast of fire code tech. On this episode, we're talking about the international building code. So we spoke about codes and standards and the process of development and incorporation of codes and standards in episode two of the so acid fire code tech. And so if you need a refresher or if you're looking for more content, I'd invite you to go listen to that episode again, if you want to tag onto this one in a meaningful.

So in this episode, I wanted to double back on the international building code and talk about, more about how this code functions in, uh, the process of codes and standards in the us. As far as being a fire protection and life safety professional in the us for the built environment. The I B C is the most critical model code to understand and understanding how model codes work will give you a good context.

If you live in somewhere else in the world, and you have a different model codes and standards process, how to address, um, your system of codes and standards. Don't forget to subscribe to fire code text. So you never miss an episode. Also follow us on social media so you can see the different, uh, user engagements.

And different useful posts that we put out also in typical podcast or a YouTube fashion, I'm gonna implore you to go and give a five star review on apple podcasts. It helps out the podcast so much and it'll take a minute or two of your time. Let's dive into the show. So in this episode, I wanted to get started with the general composition of the building.

And so there are a couple of chapters that comprise the majority of the time. You're going to spend doing a code analysis as a fire protection and life safety professional. So there's a wide range of, uh, you know, work that you could be contracted to do as a fire protection and life safety professional.

Um, I work primarily in systems, so I spend a lot of time in chapter. Which is fire protection systems, but also there is a huge component of the building code, probably the majority that deals with life safety, which is, uh, chapters like 3, 4, 5, 6, and chapter 10, I would say are the big ones for life safety.

So let's break that down a little bit more in. So, this is a very common layout with many codes and standards that the codes start out very general. And then they kind of narrow down in on the specifics of a certain aspect of the building. So in the instance of the international building code, you start off with, you know, a very typical format like scope and administration in chapter one.

Um, I always think it's a good thing to talk about, which is scope. And, you know, the codes in standards process episode is kind of me given the scope, talk for the model code to begin with. So let's preface our whole statement with, you know, you have to understand your jurisdiction and if the international building code is applicable in the first place, So, uh, I'm sure if you've listened to many of the solo cast, you've probably heard me say that about a dozen times, but it's so important because I see tenured professionals trying to perform a code analysis without understanding the fundamentals.

Um, so if you don't have your fundamentals, rock solid, it's gonna end up in rework or wrong work or change orders. So. It pays to be diligent and understand the, the code track. So chapter one is scope and administration, and I always tell people, take a look at the scope of the code and our standard. And there's some interesting information and some telling information to be found for the international building code as well.

In chapter one of the building code, there's a section titled 1 0 1 0.2 called. Scope says the provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, relocation, enlargement replacement, repair equipment, and use and occupancy location, maintenance, removal, and demolition of every building or structure or any apartments connected or attached to buildings or structures.

So this gives you a very clear picture of when this code is used. . And so I've been in many situations in which I've had to try to determine, you know, when do I use the standard? Is the standard applicable for a gazebo? Is the standard applicable or is the code applicable for a gazebo or an exterior structure?

You know, when is the threshold to when these, uh, when you use the IBC or, you know, so is this a building? Is this a structure. There are, uh, keys in the very early parts of the I international building code that will tell you when to use, uh, the IBC also in chapter one, there are important references to other codes in standards, namely the plumbing code, the mechanical code, the international fire code and the international existing building code.

So. In time, we'll talk about all these codes, but for the purposes of this discussion, understand that the building code is just one piece of, uh, the requirements for a building. I guess that makes pretty obvious sense. But, um, much of these other codes work in a similar fashion. So, um, in time we'll speak about these as.

Moving on to chapter two, which is definitions. This is a very important chapter. We've talked about it, a bunch in our hazardous materials discussion, which is solo cast, episode number seven, when the building code is adopted by your jurisdiction, it becomes a legal document. And for all legal documents or lawyering types of professions, the definitions of the law is extremely important.

So knowing to go when you're looking for, I can't tell you how many times I've needed a little bit of clarification on a, on a code topic or a, a standard implication. And I've had to go check the definition of, you know, what is a building or, you know, what is a, an exit component or a stairway, you know what?

These seem like straightforward things. But when you're looking to, uh, apply. Requirements, you need to understand, um, the term in which you're referencing. And so this is a big help in time you get used to this jargon. So this very well defined jargon, and it doesn't become so difficult, but it's, uh, takes some time to become used to the exercise of going back to the definitions, reading.

And yeah, I guess this applies across the board with N FPA standards as well. So that's always a good point. If you know, it might not be the same between NFPA 1 0 1 or the international building code, depending on your jurisdiction. So NFPA 1 0 1 can be used in a similar fashion as the international building code.

For, uh, occupancies, like department of defense, you will have to use the NFPA 1 0 1 in conjunction with the international building code. And this gets very tricky because there are some portions of the life safety design, like means of egress that are NFPA 1 0 1. And there are some portions of the design, like occupancy classification in which you use both.

NFP 1 0 1 and the international building code. And then, uh, yeah, so it's just a little bit of back and forth and a big, uh, learning curve in itself as well. More on that in a later episode, the scoping of chapter two definition states, unless otherwise expressly stated the following words in terms shall be for the purposes of this code, have the meaning shown in this chapter.

There's another important section here, uh, linking to other codes and standards 2 0 1 0.3 terms defined in other codes where terms are not defined in this code and are defined in the international energy conservation code, fuel gas code, fire code international mechanical code plumbing code such terms shall have the meanings ascribed to them in those codes.

As in those codes, important definitions in definitions chapter. Well, there's a bunch of 'em, but, uh, like we spoke about before hazardous materials and what, how you define a flammable combustible, liquid, or a corrosive or a toxic versus highly toxic, it can all be found in chapter two, which is definitions also important.

Uh, Important caveats to what is, uh, a fire alarm or a fire suppression system can be found in chapter two, the egress components, which we talked about before, exit exit discharge access, the difference between net and gross floor areas for life safety implications. Here's an important one for life safety analysis.

Here's the definition of means of egress. Continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of the building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts, exit access, exit, and the exit discharge. So, this is an extremely, uh, important definition within the chapter two of the building code.

And within this statement, there are, uh, at least three to four other terms, which are also defined in chapter two. So when you are looking at, uh, life safety analysis and trying to determine if. The means of egress are compliant within a facility. You have to understand what does it even mean to say means of egress and what is a public way or an exit discharge and where do those things start and end?

So you can see how, um, these definitions can quickly become extremely important. Moving on to chapter three, which is use and occupancy classification. So even if you only design fire protection systems, you're going to have. Uh, know how to determine what occupancy that your, uh, facility is classified as, or what, um, multiple occupancies your facility is classified as.

So this is an absolutely, uh, crucial part of understanding fire protection system design and life safety design is how to categorize, uh, Use and occupancy of a facility, chapter three is extremely important. And one of the first areas that you're gonna need to know how to use. So probably even before you, um, are able to navigate.

Um, chapter three and in chapter two, uh, you'll be able to go in and take a look at these different occupancies and kind of relate them. And there's some play to these occupancies in which you'll need experience to know how to apply these I'd I'd call it. Uh, it's similar to like hazard determination and taking a look at, uh, NFPA 13 systems and, and, um, applying, uh, you know, a broad hazard category.

Uh, a facility there's some experience and, um, engineering judgment and discretion involved with classifying occupancies. So there are 10 classes of occupancies, and I don't know if you call it classes or what you would call it. Groups, I guess, would be a better phrase. That's how the building code describes it.

But in those groups are a, B E F H I M R S. And. So that's assembly business, educational factory, high hazard, institutional Meile, residential storage and utility slash miscellaneous. Each one of these different occupancies has varying levels of concern for fire and life safety. So when you start your fire and life safety analysis, you have to.

Determine there's a much, uh, different approach to fire line safety for an EDU, an educational occupancy as compared to a storage occupancy. And there may be a case. And generally there is where you have multiple occupancies in a building. So an example would be you have a business building, say an office building.

And within that building, you have storage closets, janitorial, closets. Um, and different functional areas within the buildings that might classify as an S one or an S two. Oh, okay. So, and we didn't touch on this point within these 10 categories or groups, there are subcategories. So there are five different types of assembly groups.

There are two different types of factory, uh, groups. Um, institutional has, uh, let's see, three, no four gradients. And so within these groups are further deviations from the classification. So if I say that we have a, a group, a three. This is a assembly occupancy, but more specifically, the building code goes to describe assembly occupancies that are a three as amusement arcades, bowling alleys, community halls, dance halls, exhibition halls, gymnasiums, indoor swimming pools, etcetera.

So it gives an example in, in much similar the way that N F P 13 for hazard determination gives examples of combustible loadings for different hazard groups. We give. In the building code, examples of, uh, facility types for different occupancies. So this is a little bit of an illustration of the different, uh, occupancy groups.

And it's very important because we have groups like H N I, which are on the, the greatest side of severity for fire and life safety. I'd say probably. I and our occupancies, depending on the one that you're looking at, um, are usually pretty high as far as fire and life safety. And we could go into that in depth, but yeah, I think that's a good place to stop, um, for the building code.

As you can tell, we didn't get too far. I thought that I was gonna get farther. But, um, we'll continue on the Patreon. Don't forget to go check out, uh, patreon.com/fire code tech, where you can get more solo casts. If that's something that you're interested in. And yeah. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

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Welcome to episode 35 of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we have Vishal Kashyap a career professional in fire alarm systems for more than a decade. In this episode we talk about how to learn about fire alarm systems and tips for those who would like to advance their knowledge on the subject. We also talk about Vishal’s fire book club which goes over a variety of fire protection topics on a weekly basis.

Youtube Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjfeeaZKKMuO6hS6pNUg8lw

Whats Ap Group:

https://cutt.ly/Kmu38wZ

Would you speak about how you got started in fire and life safety?

What is your project work background with fire alarm systems?

Would you speak about what is the fire alarm book club?

What kind of professionals attend the book club?

How did you find the inspiration for the book club?

What resources would you recommend to those who would like to learn more about fire alarm systems?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Hello, all welcome to episode 35 of fire code tech. On this episode, we have Michelle cashier. This episode is sponsored by WAER, but more from our sponsor a little bit later on in this episode, on this episode, we're diving deep into some fire alarm topics. Also, you can hear a first hand account of Al's fire look club, where he goes through NFPA standards on a week by week basis in bite size chunks and discusses it with a group of fellow professionals.

If you're interested in new ways that you can learn about fire alarms and online content for fire protection, you're gonna love this episode. Foral has over a decade of experience in fire alarms, special hazards and security and CCTV design. We also break into some of his project work, which includes new and existing construction in a variety of different buildings.

Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media Owen. If you'd be so inclined, please give us a five star review on apple podcasts. It really helps out the show analytics. Well, hello, haw. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. How's it going? That's going fine.

Thank you for guys, for having me. And I've been a huge fan of, uh, your, uh, podcast while driving to the office, or maybe just, uh, in and out of the office. I do hear to your, uh, podcast and your pump podcast is the one that I admire the most. Oh, wow. Thanks. I appreciate that. That means a lot. It always is, uh, interesting when I speak to somebody who's had any experience listening to the podcast.

Um, it's always nice to hear. Well, I wanted to get started in traditional fashion and, you know, ask you about how you found your way into, into fire and life's safety haw. I didn't know if you would mind, um, speaking about that. Yeah, sure. Uh, I started off my career as, um, do I'm an electronics and telecom engineer.

I started off my career as a computer instructor. This is 2001 I'm talking about, uh, at that time teaching computers and knowing computers used to be big, still is still, it is to some extent, but into the level of AI and ML and, uh, and whatnot. There are a lot of things out there. And, um, gradually I came into software industry.

I started developing softwares. Uh, we got to work in, uh, my company got to work in a, a project that was world bank, uh, initiated and funded. And, uh, that project also got, um, it was a privilege to leading that team in the, in the first place. And that project got national geographic, uh, innovator of the year, 2004 award as well.

Um, this was from, uh, some 2000, uh, some 2000 and, uh, to 5,000 entries that came all across India. And, uh, then there was a final battle, I would say and, uh, in new Delhi, the capital of India wherein, uh, we, all the content send came and we showcased our product. What we have done, what is the innovation that they have done.

And there is when we, uh, caught this award, uh, it was in 2004. Then I moved down to travel industry, uh, completely, uh, 360 degree you can say. And, uh, then after travel industry, I came to the controls industry when I joined Honeywell. It's there in, uh, where I came to the industry of electronic safety and security.

I was handling, uh, DM co panels, the Vista panels. If you may recall those, uh, the old ones, classic ones, they're still out there and they're very St. Fire and Bo panels. Uh, so that's, that's wherein, uh, I came into the fire and Bo panels, and then as I say, it's, uh, it's all history. Uh, I, I discovered, uh, or I got, I thought that I got my groove.

I should be going into, uh, this is the industry that I want to do. This is what I want to do. It's a good blend of, uh, software as well as codes. When I can say codes. I mean to say, uh, you have a structural way of designing something. Um, and it's a, you have a, everyone has the same ground to design. Okay, you, you might, there are many ways to do a design when it comes to, as far as an access control system is concerned, but when it comes to fire, you, you, there are building codes, uh, wherein, uh, you need to strictly follow.

So that is where I, I, I transitioned into Qatar and, um, since then I run about 2000 and, uh, uh, nine since then I've been in Qatar in, in the fire industry. Wow. That's incredible. I like hearing about, uh, your background and, you know, some of the different roles you've held. And it's interesting to me, the crossover between I've spoke with a couple fire alarm professionals now with the sort of, uh, software background and kind of, I guess it makes, uh, logic logical sense because, uh, all fire alarm is, is a very specialized, uh, small computer for fire and life safety, but.

Um, I suppose it's a interesting, uh, parallel between the two career paths, uh, that I talked to a couple people. Transition. It is like that because, uh, uh, there was, um, ASIS is one of the agency out there with, they have actually already predicted this way before that the physical security, the building built environment security and the fire detection industry, plus your structured cabling, uh, where in all data goes around in the building, uh, would be merging together.

I mean, it's taking time to do that. And if you see the, uh, N FP 72 code, uh, the 2022 addition just to around the corner is gonna be releasing next one or two months, uh, cyber security has, uh, come into it. So it's making its, uh, the software industry of all that matter, the computer programming and those, those mindsets, and those thought process is making, uh, inroad towards, uh, fire alarm as well.

Uh, um, class N is one of the other, other example wherein, uh, networking in, in the fire industry is being taken seriously as well. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I've seen a huge push in cybersecurity and fire protection. Um, and I guess it makes a lot of sense with all the integrated systems that have been a big push to integrate your building automation system, integrate your, um, just everything you could imagine with the internet of things that yeah.

There are liabilities associated with it. So sure. Think that's a great point. There's a, it's a big, big push in the industry right now. Um, some, some of the federal jobs I work on, I've seen, uh, the productions of, of new standards just to, um, accommodate this cybersecurity, uh, push. Um, you know, for how were the passwords handled?

You know, how many people have access. Yes. Uh, that sort of thing, just, um, across the board. So it's, it's new for me. Uh, I think it's interesting though. So you spoke a little bit about the, a couple of the different, uh, fire alarm roles that you had, but I wonder if you would speak a little bit, uh, more specifically on, uh, some of the different project work that you have done in fire alarms, so people can get a better sense of your, uh, specialty in the, in fire and life safety.

Uh, as far as fire alarms concerned, uh, the biggest one, uh, I would say it was just, uh, right into my first year of the, uh, getting onboard to my current employer. Uh, it was, um, for an industrial project. And, um, they had roughly 40 to 50 panel spread across, uh, a huge area and, uh, handling, um, again, I say a fire alarm system as a BMS that is a building management system of all the fire, uh, safety equipment, because they all kind of are report into it.

Uh, you have, uh, sprinklers, uh, water flowing. It reports into the fire alarm. You have, uh, clean agent releasing it reports into the fire alarm. So it's like a building management system for, for your fire alarm. In, in other words, pumps running, they also report. So, uh, that's the one wherein it was, uh, a good blend of, uh, visa systems as well.

Uh, aspirating smoke detection as well. And, uh, this is year 2010. And that time, uh, visa. As far as an FPA is concerned, uh, they used to treat it as, uh, a spot detector, each sampling point they still do. Uh, and, uh, it's only that very recently in the last two iteration, I think they have, uh, started talking about the travel time of the smoke from the last, uh, sampling point.

So, so there were challenges at that time and we used a mix of, uh, EAN codes at that time because the EAN code were much more, uh, I would say matured in, in, in terms of Western systems. Uh, they had very clear classifications, uh, if you're doing a localized, uh, detection, or if you're doing, uh, a detection, um, wherein, uh, you are just running a sampling point to the grid of the return grill, uh, detect, um, duct of your, uh, protected room.

Um, that is one, that's an industrial product project. Uh, we, we had easily, uh, 20 through 30 panels that I can just recall from that picture is I can still vividly remember the, uh, the graphic and ener of my head. I can see 22 panels just right there easily, uh, might be more as well, but I can't remember those, uh, at the moment.

And we, it was a huge campus and all those were being brought into a small room, uh, controlled station room. Uh, it was a proprietary system, uh, wherein all the panels were reporting in, um, very good, uh, very sturdy product that we were using. And, um, it was a, a, a greater learning experience as far as, uh, detecting the Hazars are concerned.

Uh, at times you had to go out of the code and, um, just use from this scratch, what would be the fire signature, if there's a. And then go out and search for the, uh, right type of, uh, detection. Uh, that's one and second is in, uh, from around about 55, uh, buildings, uh, of it's a gated community. Uh, we are in, uh, we have roughly some 8,000 devices, uh, detection, devices, and all these panels are, of course they, they, that it's a retrofit.

I would say that was not from the scratch. The industrial project was, uh, from the, um, from completely from scratch. So that's the, the kind of anonymity I've been involved into and, and not only that at the it's for or not, because being in, um, in the electrical division, I've done, uh, the other, uh, projects as well, uh, systems as well, like access control and CCTV, uh, were also a part of the industrial project.

So, um, that's with, uh, that's um, that's us. We used to help out with the reation of the, uh, the design doing load calculations to make sure just like the pumps. We need to make sure that, uh, uh, when it comes to pumps where we want to make sure that the flow and the, uh, pressure is there to the last point, same way we wanna make sure that the voltage and the current is sufficient enough at the last detector.

So, uh, that's that's the, um, and, and after that, there have been many, uh, projects, which, um, which have been like 40 floors, uh, Highrise buildings. You may say commercial buildings, some of them have been in, um, the rail industry as well. So mix and match of all the industries. Um, that's that's that's me. I see.

Wow. That's a, those are some big projects you were talking about. But I, I know what you're saying about being able to see the graphic Notator in your head. When you have a project that's, uh, very big and, and complex, it leaves an indelible mark on a, on a person. Yeah. You know, how much time and energy that takes out of you to be a part of a project that big, it definitely takes some life force out of you and leaves a permanent imprint.

So I know how that feels. Yeah. But though the, though the vivid image that I was having was black and white. I don't know why should be, color's funny. That's funny. I like that. No. Uh, that's awesome that you've had a wide range of wide array of experience and ranging from new construction and existing construction and, uh, kind of retrofit, but retrofit as well.

They come, they come with a lot of different challenges and it sounds like, uh, not just fire alarm, but also. CCTV and security and some other, uh, uh, low voltage systems or, um, just general, uh, electrical, uh, uh, design, electrical insecurity design. So, yes, yes. And not only that, even in clean agent systems I've been involved, but, uh, since we are talking fire alarm, I will keep myself through that.

No, uh, uh, all the clean in and suppression is good stuff too. And yeah, I like what you're saying about the Vesta. I'm a big fan of Veda. If the owner can stomach the, the sticker price. Um, I think it's a great option. Smoke detection. Yes. Yes. I would add onto it guys. I, I, I have the same feeling. Uh, I, I feel that this is one of the device, which is being underutilized in the industry, uh, just because, uh, people are.

Uh, just because there is, there is, uh, an impression in the industry that all the end user, that it is very sensitive and you're gonna have, uh, enormous, enormous nuisance alarms, uh, of false alarms, uh, for that matter, uh, days have gone for wisdom that those days are gone already. Now, there, there are visitor systems.

I know if you, if you've come across or not, but there is a visitor system from one of the mix out there. They have addressable pipes, just imagine. Wow. I mean, there used to be zones, network, uh, pipes zones of your, uh, uh, your turning mm pipes. Now the, these are small pipes, tubes, pipes, and they, they go into the field and, uh, they, they give you an addressable, uh, detection.

And the beauty of it is it's easy to maintain because you. Uh, have to look at the box at the end of the network, which is the detector, because it, what it does is it literally sucks the error of the hole and, uh, protected premises. So you just have to maintain that box and your tests are easy. Uh, if you're using, um, the non-ad addressable type wherein, uh, let's say you have a two zone, one, uh, two zone, uh, detector.

So you have one network going in, uh, one pipe, another network going in one pipe, you just had the end of the, uh, room. You can just need to drop a pipe and have a small hole into it. Have your testation makes life so easy. Your installation is also fast and retrofit areas. You can put these devices, uh, very quickly.

because you don't need any special supports for it, unless, unless, unless UN until, unless you have to do some kind of, uh, um, aesthetic, uh, beautification of it until, unless it's up in the, uh, the fall ceiling area, the ceiling void Orlen area, it's, it's easy to run. The, uh, the pipe retrofit also is okay then, uh, as far as your explosion proof, uh, areas are concerned.

You, you can simply put your, one of these in there and, uh, the detector outside in the safe area. How, how cool is that? And you eliminate all those ax requirement and you eliminate, uh, explosion proof requirement. How cool is that? It sounds like a good option and good points to know about VESA. Yeah, I'm a big fan.

I think that it definitely is a nice tool for. I always recommend for, uh, high value assets and people who are looking to step up their protection. Um, I would suggest Aveda, uh, uh, long before. Uh, I would suggest some, uh, more complicated and unreliable systems, but, but, so I think it's a great option, um, for people to know about, I wanted to speak with you about the fire alarm book club.

Bashal would you tell the listeners about what you've been doing and what is the fire alarm book club? Want to take a moment to talk about our sponsor today. Ter Waner is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm systems, the internet of things, digital transformation, and much, much more LTER is headquartered out of Lenexa, Kansas, but is decentralized in that they have technicians across the nation.

They're looking for good candidates for fire alarm technicians in a variety of locations across the us. You can find out the details of these jobs and much more about wa on waner.com/careers. That's w a C HT E r.com/careers. Let's get back to the show. Uh, this is a book club that we, uh, the idea behind is, uh, the core idea behind it is that we have, uh, we are working professionals and, uh, to some extent we need to refer and re refer the books.

The codes that we, we is like a bread and butter for us. And, uh, being a wo working professional and handling your, uh, other responsibilities, it becomes at times, uh, to daunting of a task, to sit, make sittings and committing for reading the code or refreshing the code for yourself. So the idea was that how about just take out 30 minutes a week?

Uh, and the pandemic was going on at that time. Uh, people were doing a lot of webinars. Um, so its strike me. Okay. Why, why not? We do, we do this and there were other colleagues of mine also. They said, yeah, we, we, we should do something like this. Uh, it, it makes, uh, lot of, uh, value add to people and 30 minutes is something in a week.

Uh, it's easy to take out rather than taking 30 minutes, uh, uh, uh, every day let's say, uh, for this kind of commitment. So there is we, we, we started and we, um, we formed the book club, uh, and we, the moment we formed the book club, we made sure that we have a mission vision and our values straightforward written so that tomorrow God willing down the line seven months, eight month, 10 months, it's only seven months.

Now we want to look back and see why we started this. So we don't forget it. So one of the mission, I, and I will read that out for you. Uh, the mission is to construe the code or the standard from various standpoint, reflect and learn in bite size during virtual life sessions. So we, we are committing ourselves to do in bite sizes, 30 minutes.

Uh, at this very moment, uh, our, uh, our choice of code is an FP 72, 2019 edition. We have already reached, uh, chapter number 14 and, um, I would be glad to sharing with you. I'm very happy to share it with you. And I feel proud when I say that, that my book club members, the, the cohort that we have, we have, uh, few of our, uh, members, attending members.

They have already sat for the CFA I TMS exam, uh, and, uh, they have treated the exam as well, and they have aced the exam. So that become, that gives the reation of the thought process that, uh, here is what we, we are doing. We will do. Little by little small basketball, we will discuss with each other, the, the code, uh, and the vision is to scale hundred participants in their code of choice with the investment of 30 minutes, weekly, uh, sharing, uh, off fear of unknown, uh, brainstorming and shared thoughts.

So that's what we, uh, uh, that is our vision. And the values that we set for ourself is be the cohort of individuals who nurture the practice of fire safety. So that's very important that we nurture the practice of fire safety and are willing to give back to the community. So we are giving back to the community also with, with the, this is one of the, uh, values, the most valuable commodity that is a knowledge, uh, with no monetary expectations.

So we don't expect any monetary expectations. We don't expect you to, uh, spend money on it. It's fine by us. Uh, the, the only thing is we, we are sharing knowledge and, and what we believe is when it comes to safety, uh, this knowledge should be easily and readily available, uh, which, um, there are, I know, initiatives out there in the, uh, in the industry, uh, are trying to do that as well.

That's my small contribution, uh, to the industry and the, and the fire safety community. Uh, we very recently have, uh, started polling. So what we do is we, we, uh, choose a slot. We were doing, uh, the, the voting for, uh, the CFPs, uh, after every session, every session of week weekly session, what we do is we, we send out, uh, uh, uh, feedback form.

We need advice from our members because they, they are one of the key, uh, part of the, the whole process. And they chose the next code or next book to be the CFPs book. And, um, that is what we have chosen. and the avoiding is ongoing. It's out there on my LinkedIn page. Uh, people listening to this, they, they're more than welcome to, to drop by my page.

And, uh, most probably, I don't know. Cause if we can put a link at your, uh, uh, at, uh, the, um, uh, in the podcast also, I don't know. Uh, so we can put there and word for, yeah. Thank you. So word for the slot that is suitable for you? Uh, I think it would be, uh, suitable for the audience. I mean, we, we are learning the book that is written in us, but again, it's, it's a small, uh, effort from our side and we are trying to, um, get back to the community.

That's incredible. Yeah. I love hearing about that vial that I found out about you through the fire alarm book club and that you were, uh, you know, going through NFPS 72. I find that it is, uh, fire alarm systems to me, for some reason are a lot harder than sprinklers, even though they work on similar principles, like you were saying before, you know, as far as, uh, voltage drop and pressure drop and current and flow.

But, uh, I think that the technology surrounding fire alarms are, uh, just constantly changing and extremely proprietary. And so, yes, I, I'm always looking for good resources to try and figure out how to, uh, navigate codes and standards better and learn more about fire alarm systems. So I was really excited when I found out that you were going through NFPA 72.

And really kind of like having a discussion about it, not just like, yeah, lecturing, you providing a community, building a community where people could talk and, and discuss codes and, and really kind of band together for the, for the pursuit of professional development. So, yeah. Um, I was really excited to see that you were, you know, starting something that I I'd never seen anything like that before for, uh, fire and line safety, you know, like, uh, kind of grassroots movement for, uh, community, um, of like minded professionals, um, going through the code books.

So I think that's a really a novel idea in, uh, something that I think is great. Thank you. Um, our LA over here, we, we have, uh, the, our audience, uh, they join in from as far as Malaysia. Uh, we get audience from South Africa. Saudi Qatar. Of course we have. From there, we have people coming in from Kuwait as well.

And a major chunk is also coming from India as well. So we have quite, um, uh, from, uh, quite a diverse location joining in, I, I believe that, uh, 2000 hours, uh, Qatar time that is, um, around about, I think it is, uh, 1700 hours GMT, uh, is suitable for all the time zones on a Friday. That's the reason I do the vote.

yeah. Yeah. I think that's around noon, uh, central standard time. Yeah. Uh, for, so that works in, it worked out nicely. I think, I, I can't remember. I believe I've been to at least one of your, of your sessions. I know I've watched clip. And I enjoyed the, the posts on social media as well. So, yeah. Um, yeah. So where can people, where can people find out about, uh, fire alarm book club, if they, if they want to join in or learn more about it?

Mm-hmm, , uh, they can, uh, we have, uh, a WhatsApp group and, uh, I don't have a webpage or anything so that, but you can always come out to LinkedIn slash I N slash M ne that's spelled as alpha Mike, November, echo, Oscar. Uh, you can come in there, maybe just, you give me a require connection request. Uh, most probably the first two posts would be, or first three post, uh, featured post would be, uh, of the book lab only.

And that gives me pointer here, guys. It's it's in my tool list. I need to put a link on, on maybe on my webpage so that anybody can join in. Thank you for reminding me that. Yeah. Oh yeah, no problem. Yeah, no problem. I just want people to be able to find it and I'll be sure to throw some notes, uh, for your LinkedIn and, and the book club and the show notes for this episode.

But yeah, so, so, uh, what, uh, what other standards have you thought about covering? I know that, um, you're covering 72 now and that you're working on. Getting these episodes also posted to, to YouTube so that people can view these, not just at the time of the book club, but also they can tune in, um, whenever they get a chance to, to learn about some fire alarm or other fire and life safety, um, topics.

But, uh, yeah. What are your, what are your ideas for the future? Uh, so far, uh, we, it's all driven through our members and, uh, the YouTube was, uh, one of the big, uh, demand from our, uh, members. And they said, uh, at times, um, and I click me as well at times. They say we are not able to attend, uh, because X was a reason fine.

And they wanted to go back and refer the, uh, the code on, uh, the recording. Uh, that's the reason I came up, uh, very recently we, I came up with my, uh, YouTube channel as well, wherein, uh, I am. Uh, posting all the previous recordings and, uh, how you progress through each iteration of the episodes. Uh, you would see how the quality of the, uh, uh, the people joining in and how they respond and how, how we interact with each other.

And many good ideas came, uh, comes out of that, uh, how we interact and, uh, comes through, uh, the challenge. So that's, that's the immediate thing. And, uh, we, like I said earlier, we, we do a feedback after each session of ours, uh, to our WhatsApp group, um, to the people in us. If, uh, WhatsApp is one of, uh, something like, uh, your iPhone chat, uh, something similar to that, uh, you can install on your, um, uh, on your Android and, uh, for that matter in now on iPhone as well, and it, it maps to your telephone number.

And, uh, you can have, uh, telegram, I believe gust had get telegram is good to go in, uh, us, I'm not sure. Sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know that WhatsApp is available, but I've never used telegram. I think WhatsApp is a, is a fairly common one, especially for students in the us. I'm pretty sure that it's, uh, that students use it for group projects and stuff all the time.

Yeah. So that's, that's what we, we stuck to. And if you feel like reaching out to the recordings and maybe give a feedback and how we can even better ourself, it's a tiny url.com/bookclub. So tiny url.com. Try new URL is one word.com/fire book club. That's the, uh, the YouTube, uh, channel and we are getting, um, subscribers every one or every day, roughly.

More than, uh, but, but the it's, the idea began behind. Again, I need to keep myself from, I keep myself reminding is that, uh, I'm looking for those a hundred individuals in my mission statement, uh, sorry. My vision statement who get benefit out of it. So let's say if one of the, uh, fi technicians are, uh, any fire practitioner, they go out there in the field and they're able to answer a question or tackle a problem in the field just because they were present in that book club.

Uh, we will feel that, uh, we have achieved, uh, our goal, our, our vision. We, we, that's what we want to do. That is, uh, what we are trying to do here. We are trying to empower each, each other. That's, uh, I think that's much better, much more so going forward. Um, um, I come back to my feedback. So we take the feedback from our, uh, members.

And, um, they have, uh, at this very moment, they won't CFPs. So most probably by the second, uh, week of, uh, or the early Jan, sorry, early September, we gonna launch our CFPs book, uh, the book club as well, maybe on a different time, uh, time as the trends are going on. Hopefully it's gonna be at, uh, some, uh, six, no, no, no, no.

$8,000. Uh, Kahar time. That is GMT plus three. Um, and it would be, um, the next is N FPA 1 0 1. So if I see it clearly the way it's gonna go for, uh, CFPs sometime April, next year, we are gonna do, uh, an FPA 1 0 1. I know it long times, but that's the resources I have. I , that's what I can commit of myself. Yeah.

And we, we are trying to do in bite sizes. We, we are not trying to rush those, uh, training sessions that comes from, um, I don't wanna take any names, uh, that comes from various institutions or institutions that do it, uh, that you sit in for three days, cram up all the things. And on the fourth day, you go and give up your, give your exam.

That's not the idea here. It's slowly building up. So you go through the, uh, code page by page, uh, line by line and understand that line from various perspective that, um, build upon your knowledge. So that's, that's what we are trying to do slowly. That's great for sure. I think that a lot of people out there that are looking to buff up on just general knowledge, I mean, the CFPs is really broad in its application.

And, um, that kind of brings me to my next question, which is like, uh, what kind of professions are you seeing people, um, come to the book club? You know, are they mostly in the fire alarm industry or did they work for other industries like insurance or construction or what kind of different, uh, individuals are you seeing?

Where are they working at? I would say that now, I, I was just reflecting on it a couple of days ago, uh, though the, uh, we don't have any kind of, uh, what's say profiling done because it's, it's you drop in within, uh, pseudonym in the, uh, on the zoom session and you leave, uh, But, uh, when I look at the questions, the type of questions from there, what I can drive and the feedback that I get, what I drive is, uh, generally the, the industry from, uh, India is, uh, most of the people are from, um, insurance.

That's a bigger chunk, uh, as, as far as the middle east concerned, it's a mix and match of consultants and contractors. Um, and, uh, and that's, that's the in South Africa, we have couple of, uh, people as well in Malaysia. Also, they, they are in, um, they're also contractors. No, no, no. One of them is, is a student actually.

And the other one, uh, is, is a contractor themselves. So this is the, uh, We don't, uh, have any, uh, name saved or anything it's, it's out there in, on zoom. People come in, they use a pseudonym. We do a quiz also in our, uh, session earlier, we used to do a reactive quiz like, uh, next, uh, if we have studied something today, uh, we will, uh, give it, give out a quiz midweek, and, uh, then we will discuss the answers in the next session.

But what we have done is now we have changed ourself and we are doing it live. It makes people more engaging and people enjoy, and we are able to, uh, discuss, uh, sometimes the, the, the word selection in the question is not right. Uh, and we discuss the question also, if the question is not right, so we try to make the question right as well, and we agree onto the, uh, the answer.

So, uh, that's the, the whole overall, uh, how the industry that is getting engaged. I see, I see. That makes sense. So you spoke a little bit about, you know, the origin of the book club, but, uh, and just with the pandemic and, and needing, you know, kind of a different professional avenue to gain experience in a regular basis.

That's not that too much of a burden, but, you know, how did you come to the idea of this, uh, in the, in the form that it has taken as the, as the book club? It's it seems like a very unique thing to me. Um, did you have any, have you been in any, uh, fit, like regular book clubs, and this is what kind of brought you to the idea?

Or I guess I'm still just kind of fascinated to, to how you got. This point and, um, you know, uh, we, yeah, how you got to this point for the, for the idea of fire and life safety in, in the book club to read the code out loud and try to understand it better with the group. I don't know how it came, but it, it strike to me that we need to do something similar that we're, I think I take the, uh, I can draw paddles.

When I say that when I used to, at times I used to go to coffee shops and sit down and read a book, not, not necessarily being an education book, maybe a, a novel or, or any self-help book or something like that. And, uh, I, I saw some students starting to over there. And, um, now this is pre. And then when I got this urge of, you know, sitting together, I wish I had more friends of mine who can do this, and my colleagues can do this then.

And, and this, there was this whole barrage of, uh, webinars and seminars, and I was also giving webinars out. I, I took, uh, some webinars for SF P chapter of Qatar at that time. And, uh, webinar for, uh, F S a I that's, um, similar to S F P of, of, uh, S F P as well. Uh, and, uh, then it came to me. So it, it just happened.

It's like, aha moment. Okay. Now, if we want to do this, this is the only way to do it at this very moment. So let's, uh, start going out and let's start pulling, uh, people, uh, And, uh, then there was this, another, uh, book club that I was, it was not a book club, actually. It was a study group that we were doing.

It was from, um, getting things done. Uh, I'm not sure if you've heard that getting done from, uh, it's one of the way of, uh, I'm, I'm one of the fan of that as well. And I was attending one of those, uh, sessions as well. It was, uh, and we were discussing the, uh, the book written, uh, C just one moment. Let, just look up, I keep forgetting his name.

David Allen, David Allen. You right. David Allen. Thank you very much. I just Googled it. Yeah. so, uh, for my office in, in my in-house work, uh, because I'm, um, managing a team, which is, uh, not only in Qatar, I'm managing a team, which. Has an extended office somewhere in India. So to manage their work, I, I, I was a big fan of, uh, getting things done.

Uh, I made a cross of the, these, uh, thought process or the getting your work done, uh, practices and the queuing queue system of, uh, the telecom industry and made a software on it so that I can handle, uh, multiple project, multiple systems, uh, and, uh, multiple people. And everyone are well informed what you need to do, and you need to do how much you need to do, uh, those kind of stuff.

So, uh, and I came across this group over a weekend and, um, and we started, uh, started studying every Saturday, I believe. Yeah, every Saturday. So maybe this gave an, uh, impetus at that time, or it just, again, Was an aha moment. And I said, yeah, this is how I can also do it. So Veronica is the name, uh, a shout out to her as well.

Um, she is, um, she's doing similar thing perhaps, um, for the GD world and she's building, uh, good product out there. Uh, some self-driven cars kind of projects as well. So shout out to her as well. So she was one of the, uh, I, I can say inspiration for me to come across this one. Awesome. That's cool. Well, I wanted to ask you Al since you have, uh, such a, a knack for, uh, trying to, to help others and, and find professional resources and kind of lift others up in the community, what kind of, uh, fire alarm online resources would you.

Recommend to those who are looking to, um, learn more and kind of, uh, uh, maybe, uh, sharpen their skills and, and fire alarm, uh, design and codes and standards. The best way to do is as far as us is concerned, I would say nicer is, um, is the best resource I, that, uh, books I wish I would had those 10 years ago, it was not available as they are available now.

Uh, uh, those books and, and the, I think they have now the, uh, because of the pandemic after they put their, uh, teachings as well, uh, they have on online sessions also going on. Uh, and so the best resources is stick to the professionals. Because you're building your base. Yes. It's a bit pricey. Save a bit because what happens is when, when you're trying to learn things out there, you get one gets, I would, I would not say you, one gets overwhelmed with the kind of information is out there.

You, you search for fire alarm or for that matter, any, uh, system on Google and you have, uh, so much of information out there, you get information overloaded. And then it happened with me as well. I started bookmarking all those things. And then by process of elimination, or this is not gonna help or fun one place, we start that, uh, things are going on, uh, to some extent.

And then all of a sudden that, uh, the information is not good enough. So in the beginning, as far as your basics are concern, it's better to stick to professionals like, um, N maybe now there are, uh, courses out there given out by, uh, professionals. Uh, try, uh, using their resources. Okay. And, um, NFP itself, of course, is one of the, the thing and SFP, I, I will, I will talk about SF P E as well.

They, they I'm in one of the, uh, committee as well to, for the course development. Uh, I'm a committee member for, for SF P as well. They are coming up with, uh, many courses, uh, online courses for, uh, for, for our industry. And, uh, it would be very economically prized as well. Um, that's what, what my belief is, the way they are taking themselves.

And, uh, as far as students are concerned that they have, uh, if a student has to start, I think nice is the best way to start it. They, they take you from, uh, the basics of your electronics, as far as, uh, your, um, fire industry, uh, suppression and your water based systems are concerned. I believe they should go for, um, uh, the, uh, plumbing and all, because at the end of the day, that's the, uh, that's the under the plumbing umbrella.

We have all these sufficient systems, correct me if I'm Ramas you, you, you're more worse on that part of, part of it. So yeah. That's yeah, so that's, that's my say on it, uh, go small, uh, take baby steps, get a basics, right. And then you can build on top of it. Um, and of course, if you can take a CFPs in one, go, nothing like it, otherwise break down the, uh, and, uh, break down the codes as per your liking and your, uh, bend of mind what you want to do and use those codes.

Yeah. That's the, the best way I would say. Yeah, I appreciate that. That exposition on the ni set books and resources. I've never had anybody, uh, refer those before, but I really like what you said about how people should, you know, rely on the very consistent professional resources to begin with. You know, there's so much information out there and so much of it is bad and it's really easy to get lost.

Like you were saying when you're early on in your profession, um, as much as I don't believe that you should, you know, rely on big organizations for all your information. I do think early on, it's a great place to start because you know, it's gonna be of quality. Um, because I can't tell you how many times I've read a white.

And Ren realized that it has nothing to do really with code required systems. They're just, uh, selling a product. Um, yeah. And, uh, and it's not of any benefit to somebody who wants to learn how to, um, determine when a system is required, determine how to install a system, determine the requirements for the installation of that system, you know?

Um, so I really like what you said about, um, starting from, uh, an organization that, um, helps certify individuals in these core competencies and how that is a great place to, to start. Yeah. I, I would, uh, um, I was so impressed with the, the curriculum of N uh, back in, uh, this is, so I'm talking 2004 or 2006, internet net was still.

DSL dial up in India. And, um, I, I took the courage of calling up nice office and a very fine lady picked up and I said, ma'am, I want to take this exam. She said, you need to come to us for that. I like, come on oh my gosh. Yeah. And I was like, what heck did I, at that time? I think primary test centers. I don't know if I can call those names in here.

Their test centers just begun their journey if I'm not wrong. Wow. So, and, uh, all these Microsoft exams were happening, uh, online for, at test centers. So I thought maybe they also have something like similar. Uh, but I don't, I don't think that they still have something similar for that. So I think NASA is a, is a very good place to.

Uh, for, um, to get your basics, right? Because once you have your basics, right, you, you can build on it, uh, more and more. And just to add on, uh, and maybe, uh, add on to the white papers, the two industries that are doing it at very, uh, are two type of systems that are doing at this very moment. And now all we're doing is, is the water based industry, uh, sorry, the water missed industry.

And the other one is the redox industry, correct? If correct me, if I'm wrong, you feel the same or not. I would just say that, uh, uh, as far as like the fire suppression side of things that I think N set has similar resources for fire or water based systems layout, um, is what it's called their, uh, certifications for, for, uh, layout.

And then, um, what you mentioned previously, some of the best fire and life safety courses I've ever had the opportunity to. Um, watcher from NFPA and their online resources, although they've just recently taken away their, uh, like membership to where you could get access to all the courses. Yeah. I was very, very disappointed when they did that.

Actually, they should keep it. I don't know why it's a bit pricey. Yes. But you have that, uh, library of your courses when you, you jump in whenever you want. Yeah. Now you have to think you have to budget yourself. Yeah. I know. I was, uh, I was sad as well. Um, you know, at those courses are good if you're learning, uh, strictly trying to learn the code.

I mean, they won't give you the practical application or the design as much, you know, I'm sure that's a liability thing and that they can't tell you how to design a build. Well, they'll give you all the steps to design a building, but they won't go over like. What construction, what construction documents will look like or what shop drawings will look like, or, uh, sure.

Some of the more minutia maybe of, uh, actually making, um, design documents or shop drawings, but, uh, they're excellent. Excellent courses for somebody who, um, doesn't know the fundamentals. Mm-hmm I think ISET fills in there. If I'm not wrong, you, you can tell me better. That's good to know. That's good to know.

I don't have as much, uh, information on the, the ISET stuff. I'd like to get some books now that you recommend them though, because I bet that I would like to learning some of the different, um, things that you've been talking about on the functional, uh, application of the shop drawings and whatnot. They probably do fill in a lot of the gaps, um, in that.

Since that's their area of expertise. Well, uh, Beal, I always, uh, like to end with, um, just like questions about professional development and we already kind of touched on our favorite some of our favorite resources, but, uh, yeah. What would you, uh, what advice would you recommend to professionals who are looking to, to better themselves?

I know it sounds like you like me have some interest in self-help and, you know, just kind of like this learning mentality. So, um, what would you tell, um, a professional who's looking, looking to better themselves, um, uh, uh, have, um, oh, it's, it's a huge responsibility to answer that actually , uh but humbly, I would say that our industry has been.

Um, I would say the, the grand has been blocked by the grandfathers of, uh, fire protection industries. They have been keeping all the information very close to their chest, uh, gone on those days. Uh, now I don't think so. We can do that anymore. The new generation is very knowledge hungry. They, they, they want to learn.

They want to learn quick. Okay. And, and, uh, they are not interested in maybe returning the information also that is also out there. Uh, so, so, uh, even with the, a very, uh, if you can, uh, if there are people out there who want to learn, I think one, one needs to diversify them into the computer. Part of it, maybe have some computer, uh, programming experience as well, because if you.

If you have to do a hydraulic calculation though, you're not programming, but you are a data entry guy. If you look it that way. And uh, if you're doing a battery calculation, again, you are a data entry guy. You need to know that logic, what, what is happening behind it? So to some extent, computers are taking over, uh, it's not a threat.

It's, it's a, it's gonna be a helpful thing for us and gone on those days of, uh, all the granddaddies who used to keep their, uh, their experience and their knowledge close to their chest. You need to give back to the industry, uh, and, uh, the organizations, um, out there also, you know, they need to spend some money on to, uh, give out back to the, the community.

And as far as the proportionals who want to better themselves, sharing is caring. It's an old saying till the time you don't, uh, share with your colleagues, People are sitting next to you in, in your office or, or next to your, um, next to house. Uh, all those old values are being revalidated and are being, uh, people are thinking about it again.

Uh, those things are very true, need to share with each other knowledge is the power going forward. Yeah. And of course the data, the data, if you, if you re, if you remember, there's a, um, an FPA for, um, that is under development, the N FPA code for, uh, the remote testing, I think 9 1 5. Yeah. That is under development.

It talks all about, uh, remote testing. So IOT I'm pretty sure would be used big time in it. Uh, your skills of how to shoot a video. It's gonna be, uh, uh, would be tested as well. How you record your, uh, programs. And I was looking at one of the presentations the other day. Uh, I was so impressed, uh, that one of the challenges that they have mentioned is upskilling the, the technicians who go out there and do this inspection to, to, to speed that up.

They have video tutorials of the same facility. So what it tells is, okay, press the button here. Okay. And you should see this. Okay. That's a checklist on your checklist for your inspection and testing. So he, he takes his checks to protect mark on the checklist. So that's the kind of thing where we are moving, uh, towards.

So keeping information to yourself and knowledge to yourself is not gonna. That is to the older generation of the fire industry, to the new generation, uh, keep the hunger up and keep sharing. I like that. I think those are all great points. Uh, yeah, you, you know what, I think that people who are involved with calculations, whether they be, uh, you know, no matter what calculations have to be aware of, uh, garbage in, garbage out, if you don't understand, um, the data that you're putting into your program and the equations in which your program is running, you're not gonna be able to produce, uh, results that are worth anything.

And so I think that's a great point and yeah, I mean, it's already hit, um, so many other industries, this, uh, push for sh sharing and just kind of lifting the rest of the industry up and, and lowering the barrier to entry. Um, I always think of, uh, the, the fire code tech episode with Kelsey, uh, lawnmower in which she said that if the, if what we're trying to achieve here is, is safer buildings.

Then we should be making it as easy as possible to get this information. And I am Al and I was so touched when she, uh, said that, and I always think of it in, um, the way that I have, uh, you know, when I get the chance to speak to people who are, um, doing, uh, you know, looking for bettering themselves or producing content in this space.

Um, so I think that's great. So, um, yeah, I think that's awesome, Al, well, I want to. I want to thank you so much for haw for coming on the podcast. It was an absolute pleasure. And we'll have to do it again, sir. Sure, sure. We need to, I, I, I mean, we need to do this exchange on the other end as well. Maybe we will do a, a recording of, um, of yourself, um, taking one of the CFPs classes.

I don't know if you can put this on record or not, but uh, . I, I think we need to, uh, we need to do that. Maybe the inaugural session that we are gonna do, maybe you can chime in for a, a couple of minutes, a recorded session or a live, whatever suits you, uh, would be, uh, would be great. Sounds fine. Sounds fun.

We'll get it set up. And, and, and I was reading another book, uh, the other day and, uh, wherein they, they mention and, uh, about the cohort learning that we are doing in, in our book club, it, it mentioned that going forward, uh, this teacher and, uh, pupil kind of, uh, relation the classroom, set up the pandemic has pushed that set up into a danger zone at the moment because kids are not going school.

I don't know in us, but in middle east and India, uh, the kids are not going to the school. They, they are learning from home. So what is happening is that this is already a threat. So as far as the professional, uh, professionals are concerned and especially the working professionals are concerned, they prefer a cohort kind of learning wherein there is one subject matter expert.

Okay. And he. Takes the whole, uh, he just he's the host over there and he is driving the conversation and let everyone open themselves up because what happens is in a, in a school environment as well in a classroom environment. Also me being a teacher, I, I knew this people have their guards up, they don't speak up for a number of reasons, but when you are in a virtual environment, you turn off your camera, you love that amount.

Anonymity, you use a pseudonym and you ask questions and you enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. So this is one of the, this, yeah. So this is one of the, the, the, the way the learning is gonna go. And I, I only know an institution, a Vixa, uh, they've already done a trial, not on the so same end. They, uh, unconsciously, they did this trial.

And I was, uh, also taking those classes at that time and I really enjoyed it. There was one guy who was driving the whole conversation, and then we were asking, okay, if the voltage is here at Tony world, why not 20 volt? Why not 40 volt or something like that? These kind of questions we used to ask and it gave a lot of ity.

People put their guards down. Uh, they don't have this. Um, what do you call, uh, uh, a facade of, um, a facade, a made of facade in front of them. Yeah. That, uh, that we are this, they, they, they, they confide into the class very easily. Yeah. I think that a anybody in a technical role has the fear of being wrong or being judged for being wrong or not having the technical competency.

That is the currency of our, our trade. And so, yeah, I could see what you're saying about the being anonymous, uh, having big implications for people to ask questions and to, yeah. And to get answers, but that's great, Michelle. Well, awesome. It takes, it takes courage. It takes courage to ask questions that people think that, you know already.

Yeah. yeah. I think there's a huge strength in that is a, a very big strength. Yeah. But anyways. Alright. Alrighty. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

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Welcome to episode 14 of Fire Code Tech! In this episode we are talking about the great Peshtigo fire the deadliest wildfire in America’s history.  In this episode we are discussing another historic fire from over 150 years ago. We speak about the firestorm and the devastation caused to Peshtigo a lumber town in northern Wisconsin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4wi7ebOIWs

https://www.pbs.org/video/university-place-great-peshtigo-fire/

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview.

Hello, all welcome to episode 14. Fire code. On this episode, we're talking about the Pesh to go fire. Don't forget to follow us on social media and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Also, if you could give us a five star review on apple podcast, it would be a huge help to the podcast. This episode is sponsored by wa a little bit more from our sponsors later on in the show.

I wanted to do another episode on historical fires and, uh, there's been a lot of information in the news recently. Wildfire. So I thought I'd take a different turn on, uh, the structure theme usually of this podcast and talk about the natural environment and fires in the more natural elements. So the Pesco fire is the deadliest fire in American history.

Uh, the reason why you probably haven't heard of it is. It happened on the same day as the great Chicago fire, despite being much deadlier than the Chicago fire, the Pego fire had much less publicity because there were simply fewer survivors pictures of the town. After the Blas looked like the whole city had been bombed at the time of the recording of this podcast.

We are just a week away from the hundred and 50th anniversary of the Peshtigo fire. The fire occurred in October 8th, 1870. And the reason why it's called PECO fire is because the, the name of the town, which was a lumber town in which the, the blaze started near to give some context of where this wildfire was in the us.

That Peshtigo is just north of green bay, Wisconsin. About 45 minutes. North Peshtigo is right near one of the great lakes. Uh, more specifically lake Michigan. There's a river that runs through the town of Peshtigo, which is the Peshtigo river. Tired of me saying PGO yet. Well, we still got some time left.

The estimated death toll of this fire was anywhere from 1200 to 2,500 people making it without a doubt. One of the deadliest fire or explosion events in us history in 1871, the town was a boom town because of the lumber mills. All of the industrial operations centered on the great resource, which was the pine trees of the region.

The population of the town in specific was about 1700 people. Fire is always of risk in a lumber town, and there were many parts of peas culture that was well acquainted with dealing with fires. They even had pumper trucks for extinguishing flames. The town of Peshtigo had a factory, which created all sorts of goods with the lumber that was brought down the Peshtigo river.

They made brooms rolling pins and many other goods. And they, and, uh, from my research, I learned that there was tremendous amounts of sawdust from all the lumber activities I wanted to touch on this point, because we're all well aware of now in 2021. Of the hazards associated with, uh, combustible dust and wood milling operations.

And we can say with some surety that they did not have, uh, you know, housekeeping procedures or dust collectors back in the 1870s, generally this region was very wet. And so, and when there was a wildfire. They would not go for very long before. It would be extinguished. The year had been an especially dry one.

They did not receive the snow or rain that they generally expected within a given year. There were many burning operations such as clearing the forest with fire and, uh, open fires were a ubiquitous part of everyday life for these people that were on the fringe of society out in the woods with these lumber operations.

The floor of the woods near Peshtigo were littered with pine needles from the stress trees dropping their needles, as well as many of the lumber operations that were going on in the region. During this ation, the fire burned over 1.2 million acres of land. The town of Pesh to go was built almost entirely out of wood, including the bridge on either side of the.

There was an incredible cold front and warm front that came together only to exacerbate the wildfire that raged want to take a moment to talk about our sponsor today. Waner Waner is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm systems, the internet of things, digital transformation, and much, much more blocker is headquartered out of Lenexa, Kansas, but is decentralized in that they.

Technicians across the nation. They're looking for good candidates for fire alarm technicians in a variety of locations across the us. You can find out the details of these jobs and much more about Waner on waner.com/careers. That's w a C HT E r.com/careers. Let's get back to the show. Another really fascinating thing about the fire at Peshtigo was that it is one of the first firestorms in recorded.

For those of you who don't know about firestorms? I didn't really, until I started investigating this fire, it is a natural phenomenon. Um, and the easiest way I could describe it would be a tornado mixed with a large, uh, wildfire or a configuration. And so there are a couple common fire phenomenon involved with the fire.

uh, the first one would be stack effect. So, uh, this kind of buoyancy, uh, natural buoyancy associated with the fire in combination with the, uh, strong wind and, um, the front, that was a big effect in this instance. And so, as you can imagine, this is a very, uh, deadly combination. Doesn't really, uh, affect the spread of the fire as much as it does the, the brutal intensity of the, of the fire in the place in which there is a firestorm.

Um, so yeah, there was a bunch of studying done on the firestorm aspect of this fire. Um, and there are frequently referenced correlations to bombing in world war II and trying to recreate some of these firestorm effects. There are a bunch of grizzly accounts from this fire of people trying to hide in the river at the PECO river in order to escape the blaze and drowning or succumbing to hypothermia, uh, because the flames were so intense outside.

Of the water that people could still, uh, burn alive, even though they were partially, uh, submerged. I thought, uh, you know, I don't know how much to take into account all of these different, um, things from the, you know, over a hundred years ago. Uh, definitely I've taken some of them with the grain of salt on the accounts of.

Things burning and fusing, but I know that the temperatures and the, uh, fire effects for, uh, confirmation of this size are, um, pretty intense. There's an interesting theory about the PECO and the Chicago fire. That they were both started by a comment that was in the area at the time. The name of the comment in question was Bah's comment.

And it's pretty interesting. There are some people in who study space in aeronautical societies that discuss the possibility of be less common being the source of both the Chicago and Pesco fires. Uh, both of these fires were extremely fast, starting and happened. Uh, essentially simultaneously both of these fires don't really have an explanation for how they started the great Chicago fire has a interesting explanation with Mr.

Mrs. O'Leary's cows. Start in the fire, but I don't know if I buy that. There's not a lot of real credible resources that indicate that the meteor, the meteorite theory has much teeth to it. But I think it's an interesting idea effectively if the meteor was large enough to, uh, cause a fire probably would've had to be bigger than the, the one in Bilas case, the aftermath that the PE Togo fire was, I.

There was a mass grave with, uh, 350 up the bodies that were burned beyond recognition. Anyways, if you would like to learn more about the PECO fire, I'll include some links down below in the description. I think it's interesting that N F P only ranks ranks the Peshtigo fire as number three, um, behind, uh, two other, uh, explosions slash the number one being the world trade center, which I.

Necessarily, uh, categorize in the same, um, subject as, uh, wildfire or an explosion, but, uh, and they only count the number of deaths at, uh, 1,152. Um, so I find that interesting, but that concludes our discussion of the pest to go fire the deadliest wildfire in America's. Uh, hope you enjoyed that and we'll see you next time on fire code tech.

Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

https://www.wachter.com/careers

Welcome to episode 34 of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are having our first ever second appearance of a guest with Chris Campbell. This episode is focuses on the FPE exam and all the tip’s tricks and hacks for passing the test. This episode is packed full of great study habits and resources for the FPE exam. Also, we break into Chris’ new consulting practice and how he made the transition in 2021.

https://www.buildingcode.blog/pe-roadmap.html

https://www.meyerfire.com/pe-exam.html

Gives a breakdown of some of the changes and development of your last year?

What does a good study habit for the FPE exam look like? 

Will you give a breakdown of what the PE road map video series looks like?

Would you speak about the differences between computer-based testing and paper based exams?

What are your thoughts for the future and what you have planned for the PE prep offerings?

What is a piece of advice you would give someone on passing the FP PE exam?

Would you speak about your consulting practice and how it has been getting started?

What do you see as trends in the industry as a professional?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 34 of fire code tech. This episode is sponsored by wa check in later on in the show, and we will be thinking and talking about our sponsors and the opportunities with wa on this episode, we have. Chris Campbell. In this episode with Chris, we're talking about how to pass the fire protection engineering exam.

We'll be discussing hot topics. Like what does an effective study habit look like for passing the test? Also we'll break into Chris's new foray into having his own consulting practice and what it looks like to be an entrepreneur in fire protect. If you're interested in tips and tricks for passing professional exams and talking about everything involved with the test and what you need to do to make sure you pass.

This is the episode for you had a great time talking with Chris about not only his new ventures in the FPE prep space in consulting, but he also has some great tips for professional development. Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. Oh. And if you could give us a five star review on apple podcast, that would be a big help.

Well, hello, Chris. Welcome back to this show. Our first repeat guest ever on fire code tech. How's it going today? I guess I'm doing well. Thank you for having me again. It's uh, it's great to be here and looking forward to our conversation. Yeah. I've been, uh, excited to talk to you. I've gotten a bunch of, um, professionals, you know, reaching out on LinkedIn and other social media about the, the FPE exam.

And, um, I know you've had a, a lot of big changes in your last year, so yeah. Excited to talk to you about, um, all you've been working on, but, uh, yeah, I just like wanted to get started with, you know, um, you telling the listeners like a little bit about all the, the big changes in the cool stuff that you've been working on over the last year.

Just kind of like to kick it off. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and maybe we can just start in the, uh, the PE exam world. So, uh, last year, um, put out a product called the PE roadmap, which was really a, a study guide and study schedule that kind of broke down all the necessary topics on the fire protection P exam, and, uh, gave people a real week by week study schedule, schedule of, you know, review these things this week and do these practice problems, et cetera.

And if you get through the whole thing, you'll be in a really good spot for the exam. Uh, did that in, in collaboration with, uh, with Joe Meyer and, uh, he he's, Joe's got a number of different exam prep materials. He's got a prep book, as well as a, uh, a series of questions that you can subscribe to that, um, you know, really mimic the PE exam style questions.

So I did that last year. Um, and then sometime over the winter, uh, in talking with Joe, uh, we, we kind of decided that it made a lot of sense for that the PE roadmap, so that study schedule and the week by week guide. Uh, would make a lot of sense to put into the, uh, the MyFi prep book. So, uh, we came to an arrangement and, and starting this year in 2021, uh, that entire PE roadmap document.

So the full study schedule is now included in the MyFi prep book. So, um, anyone who has that for this year 2021, uh, can make use of that in the front of Joe's book there. And then, uh, I wanted to continue to, to grow my offering for the PE exam prep market. So, um, uh, this year have released a new product called the video roadmap, which, uh, you know, just kind of building on that roadmap name, but it's a, it's actually a completely different product.

So, uh, the video roadmap series is, uh, recorded videos of me going through, uh, 200 PE exam practice problems that Joe Meyer puts out and, uh, giving the full, uh, solution to those problems step by step. So, uh, what I do is I, um, I've got a, a one video camera on me and then I've got another downward facing camera, uh, on a pen and paper, and then I'm also sharing my screen and I've got this kind of four screen view going.

And, uh, just go through each of these practice problems, step by step and explain out loud how I do it. What are all the resources that I use to solve the problem? Uh, I actually show my work on the paper. So writing out all the equations, you know, talking it out loud. So, um, We're halfway through that. So, uh, this coming week will be week 10 of the 20 week series.

It's 10 questions a week for 20 weeks. And yeah, that's been really good. I've gotten a lot of good feedback on that so far. And a lot of people seem to really appreciate and enjoy, uh, you know, being able to watch me go through these problems step by step and, and kind of talk through my thought process.

So, uh, yeah, hopefully that is a, uh, a really good benefit to people who are studying for the exam this year. Man. That's awesome. I, that sounds like, uh, you know, people always ask for advice from me, you know, about taking the FPE exam and. You know, first and foremost, I always just tell 'em to do as many practice problems as they can.

And, you know, something that I believe that you've touched on with this new, like, um, kind of like PE roadmap video series is like how to show people the, how to do the most important thing to pass the exam, which is how to do the problems. Um, so I think that's like the, the biggest struggle. Um, you've touched on a couple of the huge struggles is how do I get started?

How do I know if I'm doing well? And then, you know, uh, how to do these problems is difficult. And there's really not very many options out there. I mean, there's more now than there's ever been, but I don't feel like there are very many, uh, in the space that are really doing this kind of thing. So I think you've touched on some big pain points for, um, the FPE, like, uh, prep space and people trying to get started and get studying.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I would definitely agree. Uh, just simply doing practice problems is a really important part of your exam prep. Um, you know, it, it's a, it's a unique environment where you've got a long list of problems and on average you have six minutes to complete the problem. So you really need to do a lot of practice problems to simulate that exam environment, where you have to quickly read the problem, determine what resources do you need to look for, or look through, uh, whether it's the NCS manual that's provided, or maybe it's one of the, uh, reference code or standards, and then, uh, find the correct, uh, resource or the correct equation and then actually solve it.

So. You know, in the work environment, we typically do not operate on, you know, six minute, uh, time limits per question. You know, if, if a client asks me a question, it's, you know, , um, they, they appreciate a, uh, prompt response, but usually it's not expected to be in six minutes. So, yeah. Um, I think it's important to just get a lot of practice time, like you said, just doing exam style problems.

So you're, you're comfortable doing that when it comes to exam day. Yeah. So I wanna, you know, break in more of this, like topic of the FPE exam and just different ideas around it. But one thing I wanted to ask you is like, um, and maybe this is inherent to the roadmap, but, uh, like what is. What does a good study habit for that FP exam look like?

Like, you know, um, yeah, I have, I have had people ask me and I have my own opinion on this subject, but, um, I'm sure you have, uh, well refined ideas about this by now after, uh, two years almost in the books in this space. Yeah, it's a good question. Uh, I think, you know, starting off, uh, your study, um, period, so, you know, hopefully, uh, that's it's well in advance of the exam.

Um, the materials that I put out as well as Joe Meyer's materials, um, and I think also the SFP review course, all of those start, uh, early June. So that's uh, about 20 weeks in advance of the actual exam day in October. Um, it doesn't mean you have to start that early, but I think it, it is advantageous to, to get an early start if you can.

But, um, from the beginning would be establishing a good study schedule. And, you know, that was actually the motivation behind the original P roadmap that I did last year was, uh, a lot of people would just kind of go into their exam preparation blindly and, you know, maybe they're just doing a lot of practice problems, which is good, but, uh, at the same time, um, I think there's a, a benefit to having a, a system in place so that, you know, you're covering all of your bases in terms of the, uh, potential content that's on the exam.

So, you know what I, I think that could look like for. Anyone who is, is planning to take the exam is, is reviewing the exam specification that NCS puts out, which goes over all the major topics that's on the exam. And it also gives you an approximate breakdown of the waiting of those topics, right? So a, a very common topic such as, you know, fire suppression systems, you're typically gonna have more questions on, uh, fire suppression systems than you would on let's say explosion protection, which is just a, it's a less weighted topic.

So looking through the exam specification, uh, and then evaluating where you stand with all those particular subjects. So, you know, for me, I do a lot of, uh, life safety. It means egress type consulting. So I feel pretty comfortable, uh, answering questions on that topic. Whereas I don't do a lot of, uh, explosion venting for example, in my day to day.

So I would probably need to spend a little more time studying, uh, topics like that. So going through looking at the exam specification, uh, identifying where you stand on it and then setting up a schedule, uh, based on that. And, uh, you know, if a anyone can obviously do that on their own, um, that's what I did in the P roadmap.

And, you know, there's, there's a few different ways to do that. I I've published a, a 20 week study schedule. I also have a condensed study schedule in the roadmap that's eight weeks. Uh, so a more abbreviated. Uh, schedule, but really setting that up for yourself, obviously tailoring it to your, uh, specific situation for, you know, what your prior knowledge is and your experience level.

And then also making it, uh, doable for your schedule. You know, most people are gonna take a vacation at some point during the summer. Uh, I would not advocate, you know, studying for 20 weeks straight and, and taking zero breaks. Uh, I don't, I don't think that's sustainable for most people when you're likely to, uh, probably get off track.

So building in some, some breaks building in time to review, uh, giving yourself a little flexibility, but, you know, that would be the first thing overall is, is setting up a study schedule. And then the second piece would simply just be executing on that. Um, you know, it's, you could have, you could spend a, a ton of time putting together a great schedule, but if you don't actually do it, doesn't do you a lot of good.

So, um, setting up the schedule, making it something that you think is doable for your, your schedule and your, you know, current lifestyle. and then just doing it every week when I took the PE exam, uh, it was before it was a computer based exam. So it was, you know, a pen and paper, uh, exam. And, uh, the way that I studied was I, uh, set aside a chunk of time, uh, typically on Saturday mornings.

And, um, I knew I was gonna hit probably a three to four hour block of studying every Saturday morning. So I would just prepare for that each week I knew which topic I was gonna be doing. And during that morning block of time, would. Cover that topic do as many practice problems on that topic as I could.

And just make sure I understood, um, you know, what they could be asking related to that given topic during the week, I had typically two evenings set aside to like a Tuesday and a Thursday evening where I would try to get in a two hour block of studying as well. And, um, You know, continue on with additional practice problems and additional review.

So that was the, the schedule that worked for me. I was able to stick to that, but I, I think you get the picture of, you know, set up a, a schedule and a routine that works for you. And then one that you can actually stick to and execute on week after week. I think if you do that, most folks are gonna be in a good position to pass the exam.

Wow. A lot of great takeaways in that last little chunk, you know, I think so many people get, um, stuck in analysis paralysis about like how much content there is to cover and how am I gonna get through it and, um, evaluating your strengths and weaknesses, and then setting up a plan to study and maybe hit those, uh, topics where you're not as strong in, um, you know, first and maybe, uh, repeat them is a great tip.

And so I think there's a lot of, uh, great, um, nuggets of wisdom in that last little bit of. Exposition about, you know, what a study habit looks like. Some people might not know. I, I honestly didn't really figure out how to study well until I started taking these professional, um, exams. So, I mean, I made it all the way through college without like having to be that detailed or analytical about the, the test subject or, you know, um, time management.

So I think that's great. Yeah, absolutely. On the topic of the course. Uh, yeah. Would you speak a little bit more about, I mean, you gave a great, I can kind of picture it in my head, the, the top down, like how you're working and the PE roadmap and how that couples together, but could you break down a little bit more about like what's involved with the course, you know, if people are, who are starting to study now or interested and want to get involved now, like, can they still do that?

Or like, you know, just go over a little bit more. The course and, and what's entailed and like, uh, what you're offering, uh, with these videos. Sure. Um, yeah, so people can definitely still, uh, register, um, you know, we're still over 10 weeks out from the exam. So, uh, you know, I I'm sure there are people that still have not yet registered.

So the courses definitely available, um, the, the roadmap video series is it goes hand in hand with, uh, Joe Meyer's, uh, prep series, which is that, um, 20 weeks of 10 questions a week of these exam style problems. So. Uh, Joe was the one that produces those questions. And then folks who subscribe to my course are able to, uh, watch me go through the solutions to all 200 of those problems.

So, um, I publish those videos weekly to, to coincide with, uh, the, the Myer fire prep series schedule. Um, so if you subscribe now, uh, weeks one through nine are available and then, you know, starting in week 10 and then each subsequent week, I release those on a weekly basis. Um, so it's meant to go hand in hand with, uh, with Joe's prep series, but the, uh, I, I think the real advantage of the, the videos is that, um, to my knowledge, there is not any other PE resource that gives you.

Live recorded solutions like that. There certainly are, uh, resources that give you an answer key such as the NCS practice exam. Uh, you can, anyone can purchase that on the NCS website. And that comes with an answer key in the back of the book. Um, and for many problems that is sufficient, like it's pretty readily obvious what they're describing in the written answer key, but almost everyone that I've met who's who's, you know, studied for the PE exam has had many practice problems where the answer key's really not enough.

They don't understand why a certain assumption was made or maybe why this equation was used. Not this one, something like that. Um, or they just don't understand a certain step within the calculation. Uh, My video series aims to bridge that gap of, you know, I am recording myself, reading the problem. I'm looking through the various reference materials, whether it's the NCS reference guide or one of the NFPA codes or standards.

Um, and I'm actually recording myself, you know, flipping through the document and recording myself, trying to find the right equation, you know, um, you know, you recently took the exam, so you, you, you can probably speak to this, but it's it, it's not always readily apparent what is the right equation to you?

So sometimes, you know, you spend a, a couple minutes just looking through, trying to find the right equation. So I'm recording myself, doing that whole process and I'm, I'm narrating it all along the way. So describing what I'm thinking as, okay, this equation looks like it might be the right one, but we don't actually know this input.

So we need to look for something else, you know, that sort of thing. Uh, and then also going from there to the actual calculation steps. So, uh, like I mentioned before, I have this downward facing camera and I'm actually writing out every step of the equation by hand. Um, and that's all recorded on the, on the video.

So you can see me writing out the calculation steps, checking my units. I actually record myself, you know, entering the numbers into the calculator, uh, getting the answer. So I'm, I'm doing all the steps that someone in the exam would have to do. I'm doing it on the video series and talking through it the whole way.

So, um, you know, to my knowledge, like I said, I don't think there's any other resource that has that type of, uh, guidance in terms of video and recorded solutions. Um, I, I think it's been a, a, a big benefit so far the feedback, uh, you know, so far this year has been pretty good and hopefully that translates to, uh, many or all of my clients, uh, passing the exam this year as well.

So hopefully it's a good resource for them. Yeah. I think, uh, what you've touched on and maybe you feel this way too, but I feel like if I wanna learn how to do anything, I just go and like, uh, search it on Google and like watch a video about it. And so, like the format that you're offering people is like the way in which a lot of people who are of the generation to be taking the test right now are used to, you know, absorbing information in that way, like watching a video, like rewinding it back, like making sure they understand it and kind of, um, so I think that that's really interesting and definitely resonates with the way that I, uh, like to learn.

So. That's cool to hear you speak about that. Um, yeah, for sure. And, and, and, um, yeah, I mean, like I said, the feedback so far has been good, but I think the real, um, you know, proof of its value would be in, in a very good pass rate for people. So, um, we'll, we'll wait to see on that, you know, the, the computer base exam was introduced, uh, last year for the first time.

And there was a, a historically higher than normal pass rate, uh, which, you know, we could certainly get into a a speculation contest on why that was. Um, but at any rate, the, uh, my, my guess would be that this year, the pass rate would be a little bit lower than last year, just because there seemed to be kind of this abnormal spike last year.

But at any rate, the, uh, the exam, I think is definitely passable, uh, to, to folks who do the type of preparation that we've been talking about here. So hopefully, um, you know, the people that have taken the time to go through my, my series or Joe Myers, uh, materials as well, hopefully they, uh, do very well this year.

Yeah. I think that's great. I wanted to speak with you about that. Like the computer based testing. Um, I'm I mean, I got to take the last paper based test, so I kind of missed out on, you know, the way things are gonna be from now on, uh, part of me wishes. I would've gotten to take that, uh, computer based testing.

So then I would have some idea. Uh, but yeah, I think it's so wild that. That anomaly of the pass rate being historically in the sixties or, uh, the low sixties, or maybe even lower, I think, um, then shooting up to like the eighties or something is pretty wild. Um, so yeah, I would love to hear, uh, like what you think about how, uh, C B T or computer based testing has changed the game.

And, um, I mean, like, I don't even really understand, uh, how the references and like interface and all that works with, uh, the new exam as compared to lugging in a toe of books, which I'm sure people are already tired of hearing me talk about, uh, my, uh, you know, card full of book story, but right. well, I, I certainly have a similar story.

Uh, you know, I took the exam in California and, you know, I had to fly to get to the exam site. So. You know, I had a, a regular bag with my, my clothes in it, and I had a separate bag, uh, you know, full 50 pound suitcase, full of books and standards and references. So sounds like we had a similar experience.

Yeah. Um, you know, one thing with that too, is that I spent so much time during the study season, uh, tapping. So putting in these tabs in the various codes and standards, you know, because you're literally bringing in a hard copy of those into the exam. So if you can quickly find the right chapter, you know, it can really help you.

Um, so that whole process of, you know, tabbing your books and carding in, you know, 8, 9, 10 different documents into the exam, you know, that's all gone away. And I, I think there's some pros and cons to that. The. If, if you go through that process of, of being very familiar with the hard copies, I think people who, who did that were generally pretty fast, you know, at finding what they needed to find.

Um, whereas now it's all, you know, electronic resources that, you know, you do have a search feature, um, which could be faster, but at the same time, um, you know, I think there's instances where you don't know the right search term, but maybe, you know, the right ballpark to be in and, and folks, you know, could maybe do that faster with a, a hard copy, but at any rate, the, uh, you know, that whole way of preparing hard copy materials has gone away.

Um, so now it's, you know, being familiar with navigating through an electronic version of the, uh, documents and. You know, the, uh, the NCS reference is several hundred pages, and then you have, um, all, all the NFPA, uh, codes and standards, which are references on the exam. Um, you know, according to the NCS, uh, and I've gotten this straight from them, uh, you know, the.

The exam could give you a, a full copy of any of the NFPA documents electronically, or they could also give you an excerpt from any of those documents. And that could be in the problem itself, or it could just be an excerpt as a PDF file or, you know, using whatever electronic, uh, file viewer they're using during the exam.

So, um, you know, I, I think folks who took the first electronic exam last year had, uh, it seems like the, their experience was one thing. Um, but again, what I, I try to emphasize to my clients is that, you know, the NCS has left the door open, that it could be any of those ways of delivering the reference to you.

Um, so you, you need to be prepared for all of. But, um, a, a number of key differences there with the, um, the, the, the way you go about looking up your references. Another important change is the addition of these, uh, alternative question types and, uh, you know, so GU you and I took the paper exam. So, uh, basically for, you know, the entire history of the PE exam, um, it was all multiple choice with four answers and you select one answer, right?

Um, now, uh, there are these alternative question types where they can give you more than four answers and it could be select all that apply. So you might be selecting all five or all four instead of just one. Uh, they've also opened up these. Like ranking type questions where you might have to rank possible answers in order from greatest to smallest or something like that.

Um, you know, those are just a couple examples of these alternative question types, which, uh, I think it does. Um, it, it, it opens up the exam to be a little more to. Actual situations which an engineer might encounter. Right? So as you know, in the real world, it's, you know, you, you hardly ever encounter a situation where you're presented with here are the four possible answers.

Pick one, you know, usually it's a little bit more ambiguous than that. And I think these alternative question types might. Uh, simulate something like that a little bit better, but it also does make it more challenging to prepare for because, uh, now, you know, whereas previously it was, you had a one in four shot of guessing the right answer.

Uh, that's not necessarily the case anymore with these, you know, select all that apply or put these answers in the right order with those question types. Uh, it, it just makes it a little bit different and something that you need to prepare for while you're studying. Yeah. I think that's a great point. I remember that they were talking about that when they were, uh, really discussing the transition into the computer based testing and, you know, the differences highlighting the differences.

And, um, I think that sounds intimidating, you know, select all the, you know, select the point on this diagram that illustrates the flame jet or something to that extent where it's not a, like a very, uh, maybe just not like a, a to B type of question, but I think it poses definitely. A lot of interesting ways that the question could be asked or the types of questions that could be asked.

I feel like it kind of bust so wide open, but one thing I did want to touch on was, uh, you know, you're talking about the, the references and codes and standards, um, uh, I'd say good piece of advice for people, you know, uh, all kind of people in all kind of roles take the FPE exam. So, um, being comfortable with the NFPA documents and how they're laid out, uh, is a huge strength for the exam.

So even if you do have the ability to search, um, having that background knowledge of, uh, how the codes and standards are set up and, you know, knowing where the annex and the, and the indices and, um, just the different components and pieces of those NFPA documents is a huge, uh, way to give yourself an edge during the exam.

So. I like that point. I just wanted to touch on that again, probably just a general note of like, you know, wanting to like keep reaching people and keep growing the, the audience and the people who are taking the prep course is probably a big goal for you. But, uh, on top of that, I just am, you know, kind of curious and fascinated by the whole thing.

And just wanted to, uh, talk about like what your ideas are for the future, for the, the PE roadmap and just, uh, different kind of prep services and things. I'm sure you're in the thick of it now. So it might be hard to look outside at this, uh, round of the exam. But, um, I also know that you're, uh, not one to, to rest on the last, uh, move or project that he did.

So I'm sure that you have some ideas about the future and what you'd like to do with it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I, I do want to continue to, to grow the PE prep side of things each year. Um, and, uh, the goal is really to, to continue to put out good products that really help people to prepare for the exam.

Well, and, uh, you know, I think, uh, in the video series this year, I, I, I, I think at least so far, I've been able to do that with, uh, these video solutions that I have have been telling you about. Um, you know, there are a number of other prep, uh, resources available. I've already mentioned some of the mere fire materials earlier on, and then.

You know, obviously, uh, the SFP puts out a course and there's some other providers that offer a full course as well. And I, I have gone back and forth, you know, in thinking through, would I want to do a course at some point in the future. Um, you know, the, those courses that are, you know, live instruction over the course of, you know, 10 or 15 sessions are, um, often they're pretty expensive.

Right. Um, you know, I think some of those with materials can be over $2,000. So, uh, if, if your company is paying for that, that's great. Um, but many people are in a situation where their company isn't willing to pay for that, or they're just, you know, they, they would have to put that money up themselves. So.

Um, I would love to continue to be able to offer resources that are, are really valuable, but also at a price point that are accessible for most people. Um, and you know, if it seems like in the future that doing some sort of course I is, is feasible within those goals, then I'd be open to it. But, um, you know, haven't necessarily decided one way or the other, uh, one thing that I have also, uh, gone back and forth on is one-on-one coaching.

So last year, in addition to the, the roadmap study guide, I did offer a limited number of one-on-one, uh, exam coaching sessions. And those I think went really well. Got a lot of really good feedback. I really do enjoy working with people one on one. I think you're able to connect with them and assist them in a, a, a much deeper and more meaningful way than, uh, all pre-recorded content.

But at the same time, you know, there is a limit to how much of that you can do. And, um, you know, your time is valuable. So you, you want to try to make sure you're using it in such a way that's, uh, you know, making the most of your time. So those are just some thoughts for the future. Uh, you know, like I said, though, I do want to continue to, to grow it and, and try to find ways to offer more value to people.

Um, you know, one of the competing things that I've got going on right now is that, uh, I did just start my own consulting business, uh, in January and, uh, have been putting a lot of. Into that certainly is that's, you know what I would consider my main, uh, work right now. So, um, I got a number of things competing for my time.

I, I guess, would be a good way to, to summarize it. But, um, yeah, I do want to continue to grow the, the PE prep stuff as well as the, the building code blog in general. Yeah, I understand, sir. I understand. I think you're like me and that it's not a question of, uh, which you know, valuable pursuits do you have in your site?

It's um, how much time do you have to allocate to the already, you know, good ideas that you have, uh, Uh, trying to gain momentum and keep going. I kind of feel the same way as you, in that regard. There's just so much time in the day and you can only, uh, you know, um, trade in so much of it. But, um, before we move on to your, uh, professional space more, I guess, well, I guess they're both professional, but really more of the consulting side of things I wanted to just ask you.

I know that we. Had so many good, um, you know, tips, tricks, and just ways to dissect, analyze like an engineer and attack the FPE exam. But I just wanted to ask you on the tail end of this little chunk about, uh, fire protection, uh, engineering, PE exam, uh, what is, uh, what's a piece of advice that you would give somebody who's who's going into it?

Who's um, maybe feeling a little bit, a little bit daunted or, uh, Yeah. Want to take a moment to talk about our sponsor today? Waner Waner is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm systems, the internet of things, digital transformation, and much, much more LTER is headquartered out of Lenexa, Kansas, but is decentralized in that they have technicians across the nation.

They're looking for good candidates for fire alarm technicians in a variety of locations across the us. You can find out the details of these jobs and much more about walk on walk.com/careers. That's w a C HT E r.com/careers. Let's get back to the show. Sure. Yeah. Um, well I think just building on some of the items we had talked about earlier would be, uh, You know, set up that schedule early the study schedule.

And, uh, I would agree. I mean, the PE exam covers a huge range of content, uh, you know, between all the resources that are the reference standards, um, plus other resources like the NFPA and SFP handbooks, you've got thousands of pages of material that, you know, you could be tested. And that can be really overwhelming for people, but, um, you know, the good news is, is that even seasoned fire protection engineers who have been in the industry for 20 or 30 years, you know, they don't know everything.

They don't know everything in the NFPA or SFP handbooks. Um, but they are people who probably know where to go in order to find the answer to questions that are asked in the fire protection world. So, um, if you can set up a, a study schedule and just stick to it doing a little bit each week, you know, I think, uh, in, in my conversations with people who have done well on the exam, uh, folks who spend, you know, anywhere from five to 10 hours a week, uh, are usually in a good position to, uh, pass the exam, certainly that, uh, commitment might ramp up in, in the month before the exam, as you do more practice problems and maybe a full length practice exam, but, um, You know, I think if, if you're serious about taking the fire protection P exam, um, you should just be willing to, to allocate, you know, at least that amount of time per week.

Um, and if you're willing to do that, I think you have a good shot at passing. Um, you know, building on that, I would say too, is that it is a season and it's gonna pass. Um, I remember when I was studying, I mean, I had to give up a lot of time with my wife and, uh, doing other things that I would've loved to have been doing, but, um, you know, that time passes and, you know, when you pass the exam, it's definitely worth it.

And one of the great things in the, the professional engineering world is that once you pass the PE, you generally should never have to take it again, barring some, you know, crazy circumstance. So get it out of the way once. And, uh, you know, if, if you stay in the engineering field, your whole career, that could be the last exam you ever have to take.

So, um, you know, set that steady schedule up early and, uh, chip away at it week by week. And you should be in a good position to. Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah. I think that, uh, I took a prep course and yeah. I mean like the, the they're so expensive. I mean like the, the big, full link courses that you're talking about and, you know, uh, having that, uh, mentality of being able to sit down and schedule it out is a huge pro.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. I just think about, uh, people who are maybe not, um, as like organized in that regard, it's even more important to kind of write it down and keep yourself accountable. And, and one thing that I always like to mention is. You know, try to find that community that we've talked a lot about those mere fire problems, but there's a leaderboard and, you know, people getting together on those problems and discussing the problems.

And so maybe that could be a community for you too. It help you keep accountable and help you keep on track. Um, as far as the, the PE exam space. Yeah, I would agree the, uh, the community is important. Uh, I didn't mention that, but I definitely had, uh, some other people, you know, who were in the same boat as me, uh, getting ready to take the exam that I would do some study sessions with, or, you know, even call 'em up occasionally to ask some questions about, you know, Hey, I had trouble with this problem or this concept.

Um, plus two, I mean, if, if you're doing it alone, um, you know, if you stick to, let's say if you're even just doing five hours a week, um, and you start 20 weeks out, I mean, that's, that's a hundred hours. Uh, that's just a lot of time to be studying, you know, alone. In a library or in your basement or wherever you're doing it.

Um, so, you know, if you can find someone to do that with on occasion, it really, I, I think it improves the, uh, the quality and the, the, uh, the experience of your study time, but doubt it doubt it can be rough. It can be rough. And, you know, sometimes if you're just studying in a bubble, you might, you, even, if you are doing good, you might be like questioning it.

You're starting to get a, like a Stockholm syndrome from studying in a room too long. But, uh, wondering like, uh, if the, the test is, you know, turning on you, if you're just, uh, beating it up, but yeah. Right. That's ridiculous. But, uh, that Dick can definitely feel like that, but I wanted to, yeah, definitely to break into your consulting, uh, side of things that you've gotten into, you know, you've been in the.

Consulting field for, uh, I think like a decade or more. And so you just recently kind of started your own, started your own firm. I'd love to hear more about that. And what's, uh, what's been going on the last year. Yeah. So, uh, in January of this year, uh, I was previously with, uh, Arab, which is a large, you know, multidisciplinary engineering firm, uh, in their Washington DC office.

And, uh, I left Arab and started my own, uh, consulting firm and, um, doing the same services that I had been doing previously. So, uh, life safety and building code consulting, probably the biggest one, uh, but also doing fire protection design, uh, as well as performance space design. So fire modeling, egress modeling, smoke control, things of that nature.

And, um, yeah, uh, gust, I mean, that's, it's, it was a huge journey to get to that point. Um, you know, I think I've had an entrepreneurial desire, uh, for really as long as I can remember. And, uh, you know, prior to starting my own company, I, I had a number of different side projects, side hustles that, uh, I think were really good experiences to kind of scratch that itch and also, uh, test the water, so to speak.

So, um, you know, a few examples that come to mind is, uh, you know, a couple years outta college, I was, uh, got into this, uh, beef jerky side hustle where I was, uh, selling beef jerky on the side, so completely unrelated to engineering. Uh, but that was just a really good experience of learning about. Um, you know, sourcing products, delivering products to, to clients, uh, how to set up a website to accept payments and doing with, you know, dealing with customer service a little bit after that, I was also, you know, selling some things on Amazon.

Uh, I think a lot of people have at least heard of, of folks who do that, um, you know, creating a product or even just reselling things on Amazon. Uh, there's a lot of, a lot of information online about that, but, um, you know, again, that was just a interesting experience in, um, marketing as well as the, the business side of things and doing taxes for business and, uh, you know, some of the other administrative things that come along with the business.

And then, you know, most recently before I made this jump full-time I was doing the, uh, uh, the, the building code blog as a side project. And, uh, you know, that is, that really just started as a, an outlet for me to write about, um, code topics that I found interesting. And, um, you know, apart from the, uh, PE roadmap stuff that I sell in there, I, I wasn't actually, you know, monetizing that initially.

Um, but again, just a, a really good experience in setting up a website and kind of, you know, doing something where you're creating a, a, a new platform or a new, uh, source of content for your clients. Um, but, uh, all those things, uh, you know, kind of led me to this point of, of getting these small experiences along the way, uh, of doing little side entrepreneurial things, um, And then, you know, in this January and, and the, the period right before that, I, I, I came to this decision that I felt like I, uh, I knew enough in the fire protection world that I could go out on my own.

And, and that certainly doesn't mean that I, uh, don't have more to learn. I, I think, you know, you should be learning, you know, your whole career for sure. And fire protection is such a, a broad field that there's an endless number of things that you could learn about. But, uh, within the, the areas that I, I typically operate in, I felt like I, I was at a pretty comfortable and confident point with my, my technical skill.

That I could, uh, make that jump on my own. Another big piece that was really exciting for me is, is I really enjoy interacting with and serving my clients. And you certainly can do that when working for a company. Uh, but I think going out on your own, uh, you're really then relying on those client relationships because, uh, you know, your clients are who pay your bills.

Um, and when you're I, when you're on your own company, if you have no clients, you don't have a business. So, um, it, it, it went from, you know, a, a pretty important thing. Uh, when I was with a, another company in terms of managing client relationships to now, it's probably the most important thing for, for my business is, uh, to ensure that I'm serving my clients well, so that.

You know, sound like a daunting task. And at times it, it is challenging, but it's also a really exciting thing too. Um, you know, it means that I get to, you know, try to set up my business and operate it in such a way that it's, uh, really looking to serve my clients and give them a good experience. Um, and that's something that really excites me.

Like I would love, uh, all of my clients to, uh, really enjoy working with me, knowing that I provide certainly good technical service, but also a really G a great customer experience and that they know that they can call me that I'm gonna answer them promptly. I'm gonna, um, you know, give good advice whether it's on, on the, the building code or a fire protection question.

Um, and just in general that they're gonna enjoy working with me. So, um, I'm really excited to get, to do that and to, to shape my business in such a way that I can really focus it on doing those things. Yeah, that's awesome. It's cool that, uh, and it's appeared and it's like, uh, coming to my consciousness as well, you know, starting to, to have the podcast and, you know, all you are is this, uh, outward facing interaction with, um, the, the people who are the stakeholders, which is the audience, and then the, you know, the client, um, about how much different that is from when you work at a company.

And, you know, I might only work in production and might not even have any interface with the, with the client. And then, you know, like how different those two fields are and that sort of eat what you kill mentality of entrepreneurship is, is definitely something that, uh, I think is awesome and just have seen in, in my short stint with the podcast.

But yeah, I love hearing about that. It's cool to hear about, uh, you making your own way and I. Dealing with customers and kind of, uh, facilitating design on your own, on your own terms, but also being beholden in a different way than you were used to, uh, to the client sort of things. So, yeah, I think that's, that's really neat to hear about.

Yeah, it's, it's been a fun journey so far. Um, you know, and, and I think I'm off to a really good start and I'm excited for, uh, where the, the future holds and, and where it's gonna take me. Um, I, I would also though point out that I, I think that there are some, some definite challenges in starting your own business and, you know, any entrepreneur, uh, I think can relate to this and that, you know, it is scary to go out on your own.

Um, You know, uh, most people start their career working for a company, which means that you have a, uh, either a salary or some sort of hourly rate that you're making. And, you know, basically as long as you show up to work, uh, you are going to get paid, uh, that amount. Whereas, you know, when you go off on your own, you're giving up that guaranteed salary or guaranteed pay, uh, because for the first, you know, first many days, weeks, or months of starting your own business, uh, you could be working nonstop and you're not gonna make any money to start.

So, uh, giving up that security of a, a guaranteed paycheck is, is a challenge for sure. And, you know, definitely something you have to, uh, plan for. You know, I, I have a family. That I provide for, and, and certainly I'm not gonna put them in a position where I'm just, you know, gambling on, am I going to, uh, you know, be able to pay our bills on time?

So there, there is obviously a risk with, with any sort of entrepreneurial venture, but, um, you know, I think most people would do well to prepare in advance for that by, you know, saving some money in advance that you can live on for the first few months, while you get things off the ground. Another thing that's been a, a challenge is the, uh, the, just kind of the, the, the missing, um, resources that you have with a company, you know?

So, so one example for that would be, uh, you know, when you work for a larger company and you have a question, whether it's a technical question, or maybe it's a. Administrative question about, you know, filling out some form or something, whatever it is. Uh, there's typically a lot of people that you can go to and, you know, GU I, you probably have that at your company where if you have a sprinkler question that you don't know the answer to, you can call someone up real quick or type in a chat and typically get an answer fairly quickly.

Um, you, you lose some degree of that when you're an entrepreneur, because, uh, you, you no longer have coworkers, at least at the start where you can ask, you know, all these questions and, uh, that can be a challenge for sure. Uh, I, I think I've been really fortunate to be a part of, uh, a group of other fire protection entrepreneurs.

Um, you know, Joe Meyer would be one. I talked about him earlier and, uh, I think, I think you've had Dave Stacy on this podcast. Yeah. Uh, um, so Dave and I went to the university of Maryland together and, you know, he started his company a couple years before me, but he's been a great resource. Um, Uh, another guy's Brandon Wilkerson out, um, in the Midwest who, you know, started his own engineering company a couple years ago.

Uh, he's been a, an awesome resource. So, uh, you know, those guys, they're, they're not my coworkers per se, but they've in many ways have filled that role, uh, because those are the guys that I'll, I'll reach out to when I have, you know, random one off questions. So, um, it's, uh, it is a journey for sure. But, um, yeah, there there's some challenges, you know, like I was saying there that, uh, I, I think, you know, that they're hard at first, but ultimately they add to the, uh, that the satisfaction when you can, you know, work through those things and, and continue to, to grow your company and, and make it as an entrepreneur.

I think just something to, to point out. It's not all, uh, it's not all easy trails, uh, especially the first few months of starting a company. Yeah. I can imagine that. I was just thinking about the other day, like just, uh, like transmittals and just like all the construction administration, like processing and everything that has to go on for projects is like a huge task in itself.

Uh, so it's just like all those little tasks, tasks that you might have had a depart hold department for at a large company. And then you, you become, uh, accounting, you become marketing, you become, uh, you know, all of the above. So it's, it's definitely seems daunting for sure. To hear about just like, uh, yeah.

To have to encompass all of that. Um, but, but that's awesome. I like hearing about it and yeah, I know, uh, Brandon Wilkerson is part of my local, uh, SFP chapter. So he's one of he's one of the first people I had, uh, come speak about like, uh, what it is to be a fire protection engineer when I was going to school.

So that's funny that you mentioned him. Uh, I can remember, uh, Brandon Wilkerson, uh, shucking and Javin talking about a military hanger that he had done when I was still a student and I was like, whoa. I was like, this guy is incredible. I was like, what is going on? Um, yeah, so that's great now Brandon's, Brandon's a great guy.

That's, uh, that's, that's great that you got to hear from him, you know, when you were younger. Yeah. So I wanted to pick your brain here at the end. Um, uh, just talk to you about, uh, like what kind of trends do you see right now in the industry or, you know, you could take it from the PE prep space or just your consulting, like.

Um, just kind of what you see going on in design or just your life in general? Sure. A couple things that come to mind, uh, maybe starting in the, just the construction space, uh, would be, uh, a big push for, uh, sustainability. Um, and, and that's not a new trend by any means, but I think that it's a trend that's gotten a lot more traction in recent years, uh, from a building code standpoint in the, the 2021, uh, international building code IBC, um, the, uh, type four construction, which is historically just been heavy Tinder, heavy timber, excuse me, was completely overhauled.

And, uh, there's now, uh, a type four, a four B and four C construction, which allows for, um, mass timber construction. Um, and in the case of, um, Type four, a you can go up to, I believe it's 18 stories or 270 feet. Uh, don't quote me on those exact numbers, but that's the ballpark, uh, which is way taller than you could previously build a wood building.

So, uh, you know, that's the, the codes really catching up to this, uh, this push from, uh, a broad base of, of people, uh, wanting to see more, uh, sustainable construction practices allowed in the code. So I, I think that's, you know, now that that's been codified and as jurisdictions begin to adopt the 20, 21 IBC, uh, I do think you're gonna see more tall wood building.

Um, you know, the, the number of mass timber buildings in the us continues to, to grow. Uh, and, and I think it will continue to expand exponentially, uh, if I had to guess. So that would be a big one. Um, similarly with, uh, other ICC codes, like the energy conservation code or the green building codes, uh, there are, um, increasing energy efficiency requirements that are put into the code each cycle.

Um, and, and I think all that will really culminate in many jurisdictions. Um, if they haven't already putting forward these, uh, net zero requirements where, uh, new buildings that are built, you know, have to have a net zero contribution to, uh, whether it's putting carbon into the atmosphere or maybe just global warming in general.

And, uh, you know, some. Some cities have already set a goal for that. And, and I think, you know, many are doing it off in the distance. Let's say like in the year 2050, but some have put a, a much more aggressive goal, like 20, 40 or 2030. But, uh, I think as you know, the coming years, um, you know, as we get into the coming years and more and more codes are going to allow and, or require greener buildings, we're gonna see more and more of that, uh, put forth.

So, uh, definitely a trend to, you know, keeping keep in mind. And, uh, certainly folks who are in the, the code consulting world, you know, that's gonna be, I think a big part of what we do is, uh, you know, adopting our code advice to clients in order to help them meet, um, These various sustainability initiatives, particularly as it pertains to the, the construction of the building and the, the protection of it.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. I've seen a big surge recently, too in sustainability and, uh, so I can definitely resonate with that, uh, sentiment. Um, just seeing how the different, um, Alternative energies and, uh, materials for buildings has been, uh, pushed for sure. What have you seen as far as all of these, uh, escalations and material, how has been your experience with the, you know, like, um, the price of commodities, it's been such a whirlwind ride for all my projects and, uh, dealing with the, the escalations in steel, concrete glass, adhesives, uh, computer chips for fire alarm panels.

It just seems like borderline across the board. We've seen some miraculous hike in, uh, materials. Yeah. Certainly have experienced that. And, uh, you know, I I've actually had a number of projects that I'm working on. Go on hold because, uh, you know, seemingly outta nowhere, the, the cost estimates have gone through the roof, uh, particularly with, with lumber prices.

Um, Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that is kind of a crazy phenomenon to just have that happen so quickly. Um, you know, obviously a lot of that coincided with the, the beginning of the pandemic, but, uh, yeah, I mean, a really kind of, uh, Unprecedented, at least to my knowledge, uh, spike in the cost of wood, which is, uh, you know, really challenging, especially for, uh, smaller buildings, you know, like, uh, single family homes or, you know, just even smaller commercial buildings that, you know, the primary materials would, uh, I mean, that could, that can really crush the, the whole project.

Um, I've got some friends who, you know, were in the process of, uh, building a, a home for themselves and, you know, their, the price of their house went up, uh, over a hundred thousand dollars, you know, in the span of a couple weeks. Right. Which is just a, you know, for a single family home, that's like that might completely make it, you know, outta your price range for, for many people.

Um, you know, you're seeing the impacts even on a smaller scale, which is, is pretty crazy. Uh, hopefully that's, you know, I, I think that has died down some and hopefully will continue, you know, back to, uh, you know, kind of pre pandemic pricing levels. Um, you know, the, the impact of that is, is big. Um, you know, wood is, uh, it is a renewable material and it's, it's certainly much better for the environment than other, uh, non-renewable construction materials.

So, um, you know, kind of having that almost unavailable for a period of time due to the high price, I, I think is, is a challenge for really all parts of the, the construction market. Yeah. Uh, in terms of other, uh, materials, you know, I, I certainly have been, you know, I've heard on the news, the, you know, the shortage in, uh, computer chips and, and whatnot.

Um, I can't say that I've seen a direct impact of that, uh, yet, um, But, uh, certainly, you know, in, in other industries like the, like the auto industry, for example, uh, know of some production shortages and things like that, where it's been, you know, companies have had to reduce the number of cars they're making, cuz they can't get enough chips for the car, that sort of, uh, situation.

But, um, yeah, certainly. I mean, if that continues, uh, you know, a building has a surprising number of computers in it, whether it's just the, uh, the building automation system or fire alarm panels or uh, you know, even, um, you know, controls for fans and air handling units, those all have computer chips in them.

And uh, yeah, I mean, if, if that continues, certainly you, you might expect to see a, a price increase or a, a time delay in getting those things in buildings. For sure. That's all great points. Well, Chris, I wanna be mindful of your time. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really think we laid down some FPE prep gold here in the first 30 minutes, and then to got to round it out with some interesting, um, consulting practice, uh, information as well.

So just wanna say, thanks, sir. It's been a. Thanks guest. I appreciate you having me. Um, and, and just to, to follow up on, uh, what you mentioned at the beginning, um, if, uh, if, if folks listening are still looking for some, uh, PE exam, uh, prep materials would definitely recommend, uh, the, uh, Joe Meyers Meer fire prep guide and prep series, which you can find on his website, mere fire.com.

Um, and then the, the video roadmap series that we talked about at the beginning, uh, you can find that building code.blog/pe-roadmap. Um, so we would definitely recommend checking those out and, uh, certainly wish people who are studying for exam, uh, best of luck, uh, as they take that in October. Awesome.

Yeah, we'll be sure to throw some links down in the show notes for those who are interested and want to go check out more on the subject, but, uh, that's. All right. Well, thanks again, GU for having me, it was great chatting with you. Thanks for listening, everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes end standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

https://www.wachter.com/careers

Welcome to episode 13 of the solocast of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are talking about fire alarm essentials. In this episode we seek to touch on the fundamentals of fire alarm codes and standards, component architecture, and key definitions. Don’t forget you can get two more solocasts a month and extra bonus content at patreon.com/firecodetech.

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal I.

Hello. All welcome to episode 13 of the solo cast of fire code tech. On this episode, we're talking fire alarm basics. I wanna give a big shout out to our sponsor for this episode, which is Waner, we're gonna give some more detailed information about Waner later on in this episode tune in. Yes. I wanted to dive into some more detailed topics about fire alarm, and I realized that, uh, unlike the sprinkler systems that I had not gone through the basics and talked about, um, some of the things that are near and dear to my heart.

What is a fire alarm system? What are the codes and standards around fire alarm systems? Um, how do you know when you need a fire alarm system and many more of the basic topics that I've been trying to cover about all fire and life safety systems? So on this episode, I'm gonna do my best to lay the groundwork for many more discussions on fire alarm systems.

So bear with me. If some of this information is a little bit rudimentary or, uh, very initial. Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. Oh. And if you want to give the show a big help, you can go give us a review on apple podcasts, five stars, please. All right.

Enough with the setup info, let's get into the show. So I always like to begin our discussions with what are the codes and standards around fire alarm systems. I think it's important, uh, almost as important as the definition of what is a fire alarm system. We'll just start off by saying that the codes around fire alarm systems in the us in, uh, majority of the us is the, the international building code will tell you in which buildings or occupancies or facilities, which you will need a fire alarm.

You'll have to forgive me. If I belabor this point, I run into a lot of people in my day job as a fire protection engineer, who, um, there are misconceptions around codes and standards and how they function. So really one of the things that I wanted to drive home with the podcast is how codes and standards work.

So I like to start with the codes are the international building code as adopted by your jurisdiction in which you're doing work. And then we look at chapter nine, which is fire protection systems and the building code. And so within chapter nine, there is section 9 0 7, which is fire alarm and detection systems.

Another reason why I think this is so important is because. You know, you might go through the whole exercise of designing and implementing a fire alarm system for a building. And then the owner comes back and, and, and asks you, or, you know, and I don't know what situation you'd be using this information, but they might ask you if one is actually required.

And so if we don't start at the codes, then you might not understand when these systems are required and when they're not required. And as much as I am an advocate for fire and life safety. I don't want compliance or, uh, the misunderstanding of compliance being at the basis of, uh, the learning or information that the podcast provides.

So assuming you're looking at a new building and you're trying to determine if this building in fact requires a fire alarm system, you take a look in the international building code, which is applicable in chapter nine, section 9 0 7. And this is the section in the building code, which describes when and where these systems are.

So as we talk about when and where these systems are required, it is heavily based on what kind of occupancy that you're looking at, uh, protecting from a perspective of fire and life safety. So you're, you know, what kind of occupancy you have and the building features you have is always what drives the.

Fire and life safety features for a building. So we have to first start at the occupancy and the, you know, some of the other fire and life safety factors that drive the, um, necessity for these systems. I won't get too deep into the special occupancy provisions of fire alarm systems since this is our first discussion on the subject, but suffice it to say that there.

Um, a series of factors, depending on the occupancy in which you are working in that help you determine, uh, what type of fire alarm system and the features that are required on your fire alarm system in chapter nine, section 9 0 7, um, which is the section for fire alarm systems. Now let's move our discussion towards the installation standard for fire alarm systems, which is NFPA 70.

The national fire alarm and signaling code. So I've probably already gone too long without, you know, talking about what is a fire alarm system. Uh, but I just wanted to get the, the baseline of the codes and standards around fire alarm systems so that if somebody was. Listening to this and trying to get a sense of how to evaluate the, the technology in question, they would get that information out there.

So a fire alarm dis system is described in NFPA 72 as a system or a portion. A system or a portion of a combination system that consists of components and circuits arranged to monitor and enunciate the status of a fire alarm, supervisory signal, initiating devices, and to initiate the appropriate response to those signals.

So. You can see that in the, you know, in the name of the, the installation standard, it's the national signaling code. So a fire alarm is a system which interprets signals and conditions and provides a response. So if you've ever had the opportunity to look at a input output matrix for a fire alarm system, it is very clear.

For a set of inputs, there are a variety of outputs. And so an example of one of these inputs and outputs. And initiate a device such as a smoke detector, detects the presence of smoke and initiates an alarm signal to the fire alarm control panel that we have a component of a fire alarm system that is providing an alarm signal.

So that's the input. And what is the response? The response is often a variety of things that the supervising station is notified. That, that notification appliances are activated. And so this is kind of one of the very fundamental aspects of fire alarm systems. There is a condition and a response. So let's talk about this a little bit more.

Let's let's, you know, discuss the term condition condition is, you know, as defined at NFP 72 as a situation, environmental state, or equipment state of a fire alarm or signaling system. So think of this as. A status. So a fire alarm system is a very specialized computer, a proprietary computer system. And so it is constantly monitoring the status of certain things, the status of initiating device, the status of, um, you know, uh, duct detectors, which is a supervising signal.

And we can talk about these. Different, um, conditions. So there's alarm conditions, supervisory conditions, trouble conditions. And then there's, um, a couple other others that are less common, but these are the main ones. So I'll go in order of severity, but let's start off with alarm condition. Alarm condition is defined in 3, 360 1, 1 1 in NFPA 72 as an abnormal condition that poses an immediate threat to life property, or.

You can think of these alarm conditions as manual pool stations, smoke detectors, heat detectors, water flow also is an alarm condition. Think of an alarm as, Hey, we definitely have a problem and we need to send the system into full alarm mode or let's tell the occupants that something is wrong right now.

Next step we have supervisory condition. Is defined as an abnormal condition in connection with the supervision of other systems, processes, or equipment. So the most common one that comes to mind is duct detectors for supervisory conditions. Um, this is where you're gonna find many of your integrated systems is in the supervisory supervisory section.

So if you're monitoring other systems, um, this is when you would get a supervisory. So I can think of like monitoring, uh, kitchen, fire, suppression hood. Or, uh, there's a, a litany of different supervisory conditions, but, um, that's to give you some sense of what those are. And so the last one is trouble condition and.

This is stated as an abnormal condition in a system due to a fault. And so this can literally be a ground fault in the system, uh, depending on your, uh, circuit type, it could be an open ground or a fault. Think of your trouble conditions as if you have power, uh, power issues or, um, problems that will inhibit the system from behaving in the way that it's supposed to.

So trouble is generally like, Hey, something's not right within the system. This needs attention. I want to take a moment to talk about our sponsor today. Ter wa is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm systems, the internet of things, digital transformation, and much, much more blocker is headquartered out of Lenexa, Kansas, but is decentralized in that.

Technicians across the nation. They're looking for good candidates for fire alarm technicians in a variety of locations across the us. You can find out the details of these jobs and much more about Waner on waner.com/careers. That's w a C HT E r.com/careers. Let's get back to the show. So let's talk a little bit about the different components of a fire alarm.

So at its base elements, you have the panel, which is the brains of the system. Uh, you can think about this as the, you know, just controlling everything for this system. Generally you have primary and secondary power to this, uh, computer. Um, these systems are generally proprietary, so. If you are working with an installer, uh, generally they will have some preference in what they install.

So they may not install, um, every type of fire alarm system. Along with the panel, you have, uh, initiation devices. In pretty much every system, I can't think of a system unless you have like a dedicated function system. Um, but, uh, if it would not have any initiating devices on it, the initiating device can be a variety of things.

And, you know, we could dedicate a whole episode to initiating devices, but think of anything that can cause a, uh, by alarm system to go into alarm. Uh, is usually the culprit for initiating devices. So manual pool station, smoke detectors, heat detectors, uh, beam detectors. Uh, so, uh, water flow switches, um, anything to initiate a signal or detect the presence of fire.

Um, generally. Falls under the category of initiating device. If you want to look in the building code and find where these devices are required. You can, and that would be in 9 0 7, where, uh, it would tell you in what specific instances, and there are other places in the building code that we'll talk about where initiating devices are required, uh, where smoke detectors are required or where manual pool stations are required.

The other big component piece of fire alarm systems is a notification appliances. So when you're, we're talking about. Protected premises, fire alarm systems. There are requirements for notification appliances. So these notification appliances can be in the form of horn STRs. Uh, so that's horns or shrubs.

A horn is. An audible device that can have a couple of different patterns of notification, but the most common is the temporal three pattern. So it's like, I don't think I'll do the, the vocal representation of it, cuz it's just too goofy. But um, it's like a three tone. You can Google it. You'll find it real quick.

Temporal three and then so. And then strobes are self explanatory, but they will flashlight. And so you have visible and audible signals indicating to the occupants of the building, that there is a emergency happening. So in voice evacuation systems, there are speaker STRs. So you can have speakers, you can have strobes, or you can have combination devices, which will have both much the same as horn STRs.

I think of fire alarm systems, these three kind of things. So mass notification systems, emergency voice communication systems, and then horn drug systems. There are a lot of different options. There are single and multiple family, uh, fire alarm systems, and that's what would be in your home most times. And then there are dedicated function, fire alarm systems.

So if you have a, uh, you can have a fire alarm panel that only does one thing. Maybe if you had a fire alarm panel that was only used. Emergency elevator functions or pre action, uh, monitoring and or releasing panel for pre action or foam systems. So there are a number of different types of fire alarm system.

So just to go over a little bit more about how the codes and standards function around fire alarm systems. So like we discussed before. The building code and the fire code will tell you when and where your fire alarm system is required and what features it should have. And then NFPA 72 will detail the installation, the requirements for shop drawings and design drawings, as well as in depth detail on the different varieties of.

Fire alarm systems. And so if you wanna look up the, uh, specific location criteria of initiating devices or notification appliances, you would find that in NFPA 72, but if you wanted to find out that if you are assembly building, if it needed a fire alarm system or not, you would find that in 9 0 7 of the building code, So I just wanted to touch on that a little bit more because I think that sometimes it can be confusing to, uh, understand where to go from these requirements since they work so closely together.

Next step, let's talk about the layout of NFPA 72. It's very common NFPA. 70 two's layout is very similar to. Many NFPAs in that the first four chapters are the same layout as all the other NFPAs. Chapter one being administration chapter two, being reference publications, chapter three, being definitions.

The beginning of the document is very similar, but if you have any experience with NFPA documents, you might notice that. If you take a look at an FPA 13, an FPA 72, an FPA 1 0 1, an FPA 20, they are all same and different, same in their general layout in that they have similar beginning chapters and, and in chapters.

So they end with the annex and the index, and they begin with the same, the first three or four chapters, but the, the meat of the standard or the middle. Is, uh, different and in FBA, 72 is a little bit different in that it has a bunch of reserved chapters. Uh, I believe it is because of all of the, um, technology and, you know, fire alarm system is a computer and there's kind of so much emerging.

And developing with fire alarm systems all the time, because technology is, uh, evolving at such a quick pace. So that's an interesting caveat to how NFPA 72 is different from other NFPA standards. You know, so if you're looking at NFPA 72, And you want to, um, learn about what required for these systems? I would say start off in chapter 10, which is fundamentals, always the doc, the definitions is a great spot to get a good idea of what's going on.

And then I use chapter seven, which is documentation a lot, because this is what tells the, the contractor and the engineer, what they need to provide. In their documents. And then also there is, uh, you know, all of these notification appliances and initiating devices need to be wired up. And there are different types of circuit I integrities and.

Different ways that pathways can be laid out. And so, yeah, it's, it's interesting. And I think it's different. And to me, fire alarm systems are harder than sprinkler systems because, um, they're computers and they have programming and they are very com complicated. They're very specific. And sometimes they can be straightforward when they're small.

But obviously they get very complex with complex fire alarm systems. So that's just a little bit about the layout of NFPA 72, but I just wanted to speak about that a little bit. Well, I think that's gonna cover it. We're already at 20 minutes here and there'll be plenty more on fire alarm systems, but I wanted to talk about some really base level topics about fire alarm systems.

I hope you enjoyed. We'll see you next time on fire code tech. Thanks for listening. Everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation.

Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

https://www.wachter.com/careers

Welcome to episode 33 of Fire Code Tech! In this episode we talk to Stan Szpytek a former deputy fire chief and fire marshal of a Chicago metropolitan area fire protection district. In this episode, we discuss disaster preparedness, life safety compliance and codes and standards for center for Medicaid facilities.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stan-szpytek-94300b9/

Would you speak about your career and how you got started in fire and life safety?

What further bit of information would you give about your background and the different roles you have held?

What kind of services are you involved with as a consultant?

Would you speak about the codes and standards around Center for Medicaid Services facilities?

How do the international building code and NFPA 101 interface for CMS facilities?

What is the difference between disaster preparedness and conventional fire protection engineering?

What resources would you recommend to professionals?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Hello, all welcome to episode 33, your fire code tech. Wanna give a big thanks to our sponsor for this episode. Walk. But we'll hear more from them later on in the show. On this episode, we have Stan spit tech. Stan is the president of the fire and life safety, Inc. Stan has been in the fire and life safety industry for over 35 years.

Stan runs his consulting practice now in which his specialty lies in risk analysis and disaster preparedness for board and care and skilled nursing facilities. I was compelled to have Stan on the podcast because I found him while watching a presentation online. Uh, center for Medicare facilities and common fire and life safety issues.

I'd never had a person before on the podcast who had a specialty in disaster preparedness. So I really enjoyed getting a different perspective from Stan on this episode. And we talked about some topics that, uh, I had never discussed before on the pod. Don't forget to give us a follow on LinkedIn and subscribe.

So you never miss an episode. So if you could give us a five star review on apple podcast, there would be huge. Well, Stan, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I'm so happy to have you today. Welcome to fire code tech. It's great to be here. GU awesome. Awesome Stan. Well, uh, you know, um, we were speaking a little bit before and having a lot of good conversation, but uh, yeah, I'm excited to have you on.

And um, you know, I always kind of like to get started with a little bit. Of your background and how you found your way into fire and life safety. If you wouldn't mind telling the listeners stand. Sure. Well, it's great to be here and, you know, with a last name like mine, uh, through the years I've been, uh, Given a nickname that nickname is Stan, the fireman.

Nobody can say those seven letters of my last name. S Z P Y T E K. You know, if I ever get a chance to go on wheel of fortune, the first thing I think I'll say is pat, I'd like to buy a VA, but I'm Stan the fireman because I had a wise old nursing home administrator about 20 years ago when I started consulting while I was still active.

In the fire service as a deputy fire chief in a fire marshal in a suburban Chicago, um, fire district, uh, she looked at me and she looked at my business, uh, card and she said, I'll never be able to say that last name. She says, I officially w stand the fireman. And at first. It felt a little corny, but you know what, if people can remember you by a nickname or a moniker like Stan, the fireman, and if it's not a bad thing, uh, I think it's probably a good thing, but I'm staying the fireman because I started in the fire service.

Now this is, what's a little frightening to me when I do the simple math I've been involved with emergency response, fire safety, education, uh, consult. For 44 years, I started in the fire service in 1977 as a Cade. On a fire district in the Chicago metropolitan area that had a, um, a fire department that was volunteer, paid on call kind of a combination department, like many of the departments in the Metro area, uh, through the years to present date, most of those fire departments are now either full career or combination departments, fully staffed.

But, you know, I think about the origins and my desire to get involved with the fire service. You know, we all know about the influence that, um, um, role models have on us. Now, my role model when I was a little kid, wasn't, uh, an athlete, wasn't a movie star or a person on a TV show. I remember being in first grade in Burbank, Illinois.

I remember the fire department coming to my. During fire prevention week. I still remember that firefighter putting me up on the side of that old, I think it was a 1956 Mac pumper and, um, putting that scary air mask up to my face. And I just remember what my response was. I'm like, I wanna be one of them.

And at 16 years old, I was able to, um, to kind of realize that dream because the community that I lived in had a cadet program, you needed to be 15 and a half actually. Uh, when I knocked on the door, the fire. Fire station in pay park, Illinois. And the next thing I know, I'm on a vocational path that led me to a career that gave me a, a wonderful experience in the fire service that ultimately allowed me to retire from the fire service at a relatively LA young age.

Uh, I did my 26 years. Part of those years were as, uh, a cadet and then as a volunteer, then as a paid on call. And then I was one of the communities first. Six full-time firefighter paramedics that were hired, uh, in 1983 and in a blink of an eye, a 20 year career on the fire department kind of came and went.

And at the rip old age of 42, In 2003, I did. I retired from the fire department and I did what all good Chicago area firefighters do. I moved to Mesa, Arizona. So I really didn't retire at all. Guys. What I did was kind of, um, shift gears and I started to follow a passion that I have, and that was to be a fire and life safety consultant.

Awesome. Well, I appreciate that bit of exposition on your background, Stan, and, and, uh, kind of the, the first formative years of your career and your, your background in the fire service. That's, that's very interesting. Um, I wanted to transition to, uh, you know, speaking, uh, broadly about your career. Um, you talked about a couple of the roles that you've held so far, but I also, um, wanted to, uh, you know, dig a little bit deeper into, um, More specifically what, how many, you know, the kind of hats that you've worn during your time mm-hmm um, in the fire service and kind of segue into?

Sure. Well, that's, that's a good question because that's, that's what I often, um, promote and project to people when I'm explaining my background is that. Being on a smaller suburban fire district or fire department. Uh, a fire district is a separate taxing body, similar to a school district. And in that district, um, there was a couple of different municipal and county jurisdictions, but the hats that I wore, you know, started from being a fire cadet to becoming an EMT, to becoming a paid on call firefighter.

But in my official professional capacity as an employee of the district, when I was first hired in 1983, I was a paramedic. I was an engineer. And in the fire service, an engineer is a, is a person that operates. The apparatus drives the fire equipment, operates the pump. So not to the level of engineer as you and many of your peers are, but a fire service engineer, meaning the chauffeur or.

Operator of the equipment. I was also a certified fire investigator, a certified paramedic. I was the shift commander on my shift. I moved up through the ranks from Lieutenant to captain, to fire marshal, to deputy chief and fire marshal. So not only was I responsible for the, uh, response. Components of the fire department and administrative functions, but I was also a bureau chief, meaning that I was in charge of the fire prevention bureau.

So with the hats that I wore in the fire prevention bureau, I did plan review. I did public education. I did building inspection. Um, Major incidents were kind of bubbling to the surface. And this is even before nine 11, but think about what it was like in emergency response or the safety sectors or emergency preparedness prior to the year 2000, a lot of people remember the anxiety and, um, apprehension that we had.

As a world when it comes to, or when it came to Y two K, which was a non-event that never occurred. But then there was a need in communities to have someone that would deal with the emergency preparedness or emergency management elements of operations. So suffice to Sega, I wore a lot of hats and it was really kind of the launching pad for me to get involved with consult.

On my watch and in my jurisdiction, uh, it was primarily a bedroom community, meaning that we didn't have any industrial areas. The jurisdiction was a mix of residential properties, kind of an affluent area. Bigger houses, bigger lots. Uh, I had some houses in my jurisdiction, um, that were built on my watch that were as, as big as, uh, 20,000 square feet for a single family private residence.

Um, but I had mostly, uh, you know, Schools. I had some churches, but I had three nursing homes that were built on my watch along with an assisted living facility, a senior retirement community, along with, uh, a memory care building and an assisted living facility and all of these long-term care type facilities that were within my jurisdiction that I was involved with from concept.

To design, to inspection, to build out, to signing the, um, you know, the certificate of occupancy to conducting inspections in those buildings, to responding to emergencies in those buildings. I remember one such emergency happened in the late 1980s at one of my nursing homes on college drive. And I entitled the article that I wrote about a fire that happened in that facility, nursing home fire.

A success story. And in that article, that. Published in fire engineering magazine, I compared and contrast the elements of my fire to several serious fatal fires that occurred around the nation in skilled nursing facilities, where dozens of people were killed. Whereas in our fire, everything went right.

Sprinkler system activation, fire alarm system activation, proper staff response, horizontal evacuation. It was a page six blurb in the local newspaper instead of being a front page or front cover of the NFPA journal because dozens of people died. So maybe you're picking up on my proactive perspective on the fire service.

I loved being a responder. Couldn't wait to be one, but I started as a consultant to refocus my efforts and probably more appropriately my passion on. The proactive side of fire and life safety, the, of trying to prevent those events that, uh, we hope never make the newspaper. I like that. I like that there was a lot of great points there.

Stan. I liked hearing about, you know, you, I feel like you started to touch on a little bit of your, um, specialty in fire and life safety. I always liked to get a sense of individuals and kind of. Where their experiences, uh, created a niche or a wealth of experience. And to me, it sounds like, uh, it was kind of the dipping, the toe in the waters of the, uh, more residential facilities or like some of the institutional occupancies, but yeah.

But, uh, I appreciate that. And, you know, um, yeah, maybe, um, for those who don't know, you, you could speak, uh, more directly at, um, the kind of consulting work that you're involved with now. And when I moved to Arizona, uh, I knew that my business model and my, my consulting business was gonna focus, focus on a couple of different silos.

Um, we. Um, fire and life safety, uh, surveys and evaluations of all types of occupancies. We've got connections. My company, fire and life safety incorporated, or FLS, um, has relationships with many, um, insurance companies where we do safety surveys of schools within school districts. We work with several different arch diocese around the country, connected with different, uh, insurance groups.

And I. Pools, but my main. Element of consulting is the principle of the company is, um, healthcare, uh, and senior services. And within that umbrella of specialty, I'm really focused on, um, long term care. I'm the life safety and disaster planning consultant for a couple of different, or a few different state associations, including the Arizona healthcare Associa.

The California association of health facilities and the Utah healthcare association. In addition to that, uh, I've been able to really modify and maximize my niche with long term care associations around the country. And I'd say I'd probably have been connected to at least half of the states. Healthcare associations, where I, uh, get engaged to do breakout sessions on emergency preparedness life safety.

One of my true areas of specialty are the CMS, which is Medicare Medicaid requirements for healthcare facilities, both on life safety. and emergency preparedness. Uh, I design and conduct tabletop exercises. I facilitate discussion based exercises and you know, I've had to do probably what you and others have done when it comes to the educational venues during a pandemic.

Uh, I've done a lot of webinars on life safety, one in particular life safety considerations. Uh, or, or life safety in consideration of COVID 19, you know, what were the life safety or what are the life safety consequences of transforming buildings with strong focus on infection, control and management. So even though I've worked with many different types of occupancies through my connections with insurance companies or stand.

Clients that we've been able to, uh, engage with, which includes general industry, public assembly, uh, board and care, um, Merck and teal. I'd say my sweet spot is the work that I do with long-term care and healthcare facilities around the country. That's great. I, I appreciate that. A little bit of added information about, you know, kind of the services you provide and some of the different types of work that you're involved in.

I mean, I guess, uh, this next question may be obvious, but, um, as somebody who, you know, uh, works as a consultant or somebody who gets into specialized work, I just have a fascination with, um, you know, somebody like yourself to go out and, and start a business of your own. You know, I, it appears to me that your specialty and your experience has kind of, um, dictated, you know, what kind of services that you've offered as a consultant.

But I wondered if you haven't had any more exposition on like how you determined what services to offer as a consultant. I just think it's, uh, you kind of had a, a wide open space. You could have put your time into you. You had to have some, some passion behind these to, to get into 'em. Yeah. You know, there, there was definitely a Genesis to this and it already goes, I mean, it goes directly to the article that I spoke to you about.

So there was an admissions director that was at the facility that had the fire, um, that I wrote about the success story fire. And you know, one thing that I prided myself on in my jurisdiction was that I made a connect. With these long-term care facilities, the occupants within the jurisdiction, whether it was the owner of a strip mall, the occupants at the strip mall, the operators of a nursing home, the community hospital that was in my jurisdiction, the churches, the schools, I was that fire marshal, um, that had a partner.

With those types of agencies so that when the fire came that day at seven 15 in the morning at that facility on college drive, we weren't meeting each other for the first time we had a relationship and we managed the problem. Uh, Together. Well, it was this admissions director that was at this nursing facility who went on to become an executive director.

So the, the leader of a, of an assisted living facility in another nearby jurisdiction, she came to me and said, Stan, listen, you know, all that great stuff that you did at my facility when I was the admissions director, the community that my new building is based in. Doesn't have those kinds of resources and, you know, can you come to my building and teach the people how to evacuate, how to use a fire extinguisher, how to shelter in place.

And vis-a-vie, you know, I had an entrepreneurial thought she said, and I'll even pay you to come and do this for me. So I remember staying up. Into the wee hours of the morning at the fire station when I was on duty or when I was off duty at home, putting together a business plan, coming up with the business that was really focused on just doing fire safety kind of stuff.

But through the years, just like my career in the fire service evolved at first. You know, going back to the fifties and sixties and seventies and all points before that the fire service really was all about what you get response. You put the wet stuff on the red stuff, and it was really all about putting out fires.

But then in the seventies, we became more involved with. You know, emergency medical services. We had EMTs. Then we had paramedics. Then in the eighties, it was all about hazardous material response. Then it was technical re rescue. Then it was being responders to weapons of mass destruction. You know, you think about your firefighters today.

It's all about an all hazards approach to emergency preparedness response, recovery and continuity of services. And I just took all those elements. And kind of incorporated them into a business where again, it started out on a fire safety focus, then it expanded to emergency preparedness. And today it's gone.

Even beyond that, I've gone into risk management loss control. Infection, uh, measures. I've got a relationship with an industrial hygienist. You can only imagine the kind of work that we've been doing in the midst of a pandemic, but it's kind of been a dovetail of services that really, you know, focus. At the foundational level of life, safety and preparedness, but there are so many elements of that.

You know, I think one client that I had characterized what I do for my clients, uh, in a very simple phrase, he said to me, do you know why I hire someone like you? Cuz I'm not an engineer? Uh, I'm not a PhD. I'm a technician. I'm a fire marshal that can work to the advantage. Of my clients, uh, and their operations.

He said, I hire guys like you, or I hire you specifically because I need you to be my conscience. I wanna make sure that we're meeting code, that we're doing things to the level of best practices. And when it comes to long-term care or senior services, like a retirement community, which I work with, many of them around the country coast to coast, uh, the net product.

Are the clients, the people, the customers that they serve, they're not, um, producing a widget or a gadget they're providing. And this is what I say in many of the presentations that I make to staff to educate, inspire and motivate them. You're not just selling a beautiful environment of care or service.

You're not, um, providing simply a wonderful. Culinary experience and activities. The, the basic thing that you're providing is life safety and security. And that's what I kind of enhance my clients when, when I get involved with them. I see. Yeah, I like that. That's a, that's a good point. You know, um, I was offered this, uh, you know, piece of, um, advice or somebody.

We had a salesperson come in to speak with us about, um, they were trying to sell their product and they were saying, you know, how they had trouble, um, conveying, you know, how they add to the Bo bottom line, cuz they are a, uh, something that's in fire and life safety. And you know, I had issued a piece of advice that I had heard on, uh, one of the previous episodes of this podcast.

It was, uh, you know, as, as fire and life safety professionals, we. Maintain the. Companies, you know, right. To do business in the eyes of the loss. So I love that point that you're talking about, about how, you know, you are providing a safe environment for people. When, you know, if the fire and life safety is, uh, Paramount to that.

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They don't have to hire someone like this, but the clients that do to me, they're the ones that, that get it. They are kind of hedging their bet by not only meeting minimal compliance, but they wanna provide optimal safety for the people. You know, that generally. Occupy their buildings. Now, when I talk about regulated healthcare, such as a nursing home that might receive funding from a funding agency, like Medicare or Medicaid, they do have regulatory requirements.

And, uh, I'm the person and my, my team or my company comes in and we kind of are the objective observers. We're the conscience of the facility. Um, we let them know what they're. Right. What they're doing, uh, wrong. Where are there opportunities for improvement? So when that. Or federal surveyor or local inspector comes in.

They're not gonna find the penetrations in a firewall. They're not gonna see that the provider had missed a quarterly sprinkler test. We find these things. So we do a lot of mock survey, mock life safety tours, um, mock emergency preparedness tours to make sure that the providers are meeting their codes.

And in many cases, they're exceeding them and that's, that's the kind of environment and that's the ki kind of client we like to work with. That's great. Yeah. It's always nice to see good maintenance records and to be involved with clients who are concerned with. Not just meeting the minimum requirements of code, which that's what they are, minimum requirements, but, you know, providing, going above and beyond.

But yeah, you touched on, uh, you touched on it a couple times, this, uh, CMS center for, uh, Medicaid and Medicare and, um, kind of the codes and standards around it. You know, how I found you, Stan was, um, looking on YouTube and I was working for a, uh, hospital and I was trying to. You know, navigate the codes and standards around, um, CMS facilities.

And I found a great presentation on, on YouTube, uh, that you were doing about some of these common fire and life safety features. And speaking about the codes to, you know, to some extent around these facilities, uh, I'd love to hear you speak a little bit on, um, the codes and standard structure around these kind of occupancies.

It's confusing because, uh, CMS. Obviously as a federal agency and they are going to, uh, they needed to adopt, you know, consistent codes and standards that are applicable and enforceable, uh, around the country. Um, CMS typically engages contractors to, uh, provide the enforcement. Leg of, of the regulatory requirements and in many cases, uh, the enforcement body or the contractor in an individual state is a state's department of health or similarly titled, uh, agency in Arizona.

It's the Arizona department of health services in Illinois. It's the Illinois department of health in California. It's the California department of health, but. There's a breakout in California where the county of Los Angeles is the CMS. Contractor. So state surveyors working as, um, a representative of the federal government, um, come in from a life safety and emergency preparedness perspective, and they, um, make sure that these buildings are up to a specific code.

Now, the addition. Of the code or the main code that they are focused on and are re regulating is the life safety code and FPA 1 0 1. But present. The addition of NFPA 1 0 1, uh, is the 2012 addition of the life safety code. This is often in conflict with other jurisdictions that may not enforce the life safety code or have a different, more commonly, a more current addition of the life safety code.

But. Getting down to the brass tax of enforcement, CMS enforces the 2012 edition of the life safety code. The 2012 edition of NFPA 99, the healthcare facilities code and in chapter two of the life safety code. As most code officials and, and code officianados know chapter two and NFPA 1 0 1 is the reference publications, codes and standards.

So whatever chapter two of the 2012 addition of the code references. Those are the other applicable additions, I believe. Um, the 2012 edition of the life safety code references, the 2010 or the 2011 edition of an FPA 13, the same for 72 for fire alarms. And a lot of folks will say, wait a second. It's 20, 21.

Why are they using such. Uh, an older addition of the code in codes and standards in publications. Well, it's the federal government and they've gotta come up with some standard. And in my experience, it's about every five to seven years. They'll go through, um, the. Process of Congress updating a, a more frequent or I'm, I'm sorry, a newer edition of the code, but right now we're in the 2012 edition of the life safety code.

And I would imagine at some point in the coming years, we're gonna see. Um, CMS adopt, uh, a more, a newer addition of the life safety code. And one of the things that that leads to GU is a lot of frustration. You know, I can only imagine, uh, in your practice when you're trying to figure out the codes and standards for one of your clients, you know, you've gotta look for those conflicts.

You've gotta look for those incongruencies and. In my experience with healthcare, uh, facilities, particularly long term care or skilled nursing facilities. Um, there's a ton of frustration when it comes to navigating all the different AJS that are out there. Yeah. Stan, it's definitely a struggle. It feels like, um, operating in a, in a very, uh, specific or a different state.

And like, you know, I I'd compare it to like the difference between. Traditional code and then like working on a department of defense job it's you gotta throw the book out the window and, uh, uh, assume a whole new, uh, rules of engagement and operations. Uh, one part, one part, uh, that was confusing for me.

And, and maybe you could touch on this a little bit was, um, you know, the. International building code is generally what's adopted in, uh, most of the jurisdictions that I work in. You know, how does this, how does NFPA 1 0 1 and how you know, uh, CMS, um, and how they adopt NFPA 1 0 1 and N F P 99. You know, how do these two documents, uh, play with each other because, um, you know, the state or the, one of the jurisdictions, that's not the, the Medicare, uh, facility, um, might, uh, adopt I B, C or IM C.

And so how do these two documents, uh, cohabitate, I guess, Well, they, they really don't because the CMS doesn't really dabble into building codes. They defer to the, uh, appropriate jurisdiction that has authority. And sometimes there's multiple jurisdictions. Uh, I go back to my experience w working with the fire district, I had three different municipalities within my district, along with unincorporated cook county.

Each of those jurisdictions had their own building code, their own electric code. And then if you factored in a school, the school was exempt from our particular authority. They had their own code. And even in the seventies, eighties and nineties, they were still using, I believe the 1967 edition. Of the AIA code.

So there's a lot of conflict, a lot of consternation, a lot of frustration. And that's when I would have to tap in my third party, reviewer my fire protection engineering company from a local, uh, fire protection engineer that was in the Chicago area to, to navigate some of these things. But CMS really does not address, um, The building codes at all, they defer to the ones that are applicable.

And then if, if, uh, any of our, our, our listeners, um, are thinking about an assisted living facility, you know, to the. Common person on the street, you know, you're, you're, you're driving by a Manor care facility, a sunrise facility, a Genesis facility. The assumption can't be, if there's elderly folks in there, that must be a nursing home because there's different levels of care and licensure that's out there that comes with different requirements.

But just to compare and contrast. Assisted living facilities are regulated by state regulations on board and care or assisted living. They are not regulated by CMS, nor do they receive CMS or funding from Medicare or Mary Medicaid. It's all private pay. So it's extreme. I don't know if convoluted is the right word, but it's cons it's very confusing when it comes to peeling back, you know, the depth of, of the different authorities that have jurisdiction on, on these types of facilities.

Yeah. I think that's where, uh, a lot of my confusion comes from too. Stan is working for, uh, uh, a hospital with a myriad of different authority, having jurisdictions and. You know, stakeholders at hand, um, kind of makes the issue, uh, not so clear. So I appreciate that. Um, some more insight on, um, these kind of occupancies I'm, I'm fascinated with, uh, any little, you know, or it's not little by any means, but any different, um, kind of, uh, pond or, you know, different place in fire and life safety, where there is a lot of value to be added.

And, um, these occupancies, uh, obviously are one of those, but. Uh, well, lemme tell you this, when it comes to healthcare facilities, you know, anyone familiar with the life safety code and in particular, the 2012 edition of the code, they know that chapters 18 for new construction and chapter 19 for existing, you know, that's, that's the main area that we're going to when it comes to life safety compliance, uh, uh, in, in these facilities.

But like I said, there. The focus is the means of egress. The focus is, um, those life safety provisions. It doesn't really acknowledge a whole lot on building construction. Certainly building construction and construction type minimally is required for these types of buildings. But then if you factor in I B C or Boca or AIA, there's gonna be conflict.

And, and, and that's usually where it becomes a pretty. Pretty dicey, uh, proposition for many of these types of properties. Yeah, definitely. I, I, you know, the other thing too, the point that I wanted to make was when it comes particularly to the D the domain that I work with, skilled nursing facilities. I don't know if this is a badge of honor, or if it's a cross to bear, but skilled nursing facilities are the most highly regulated type of occupancy in the country.

Only second to the nuclear power industry. GU you mentioned that you do work, um, with hospitals, even hospitals, aren't regulated to the point that a nursing home is, and maybe rightfully so, but here's an example, you know, when you design or review a system, you know that there are certain areas within a hospital, maybe it's a closet.

Patient room that's less than 12 square feet may not require a sprinkler head, but in a nursing home, if you had a one by one square foot, um, closet, and it was, it met the definition of a closet or a space, you're gonna see a sprinkler head in there. These facilities are fully sprinkled sometimes.

Completely consistent with local jurisdictions that are proactive and, uh, up to speed with modern codes and standards. But you know, there is no standard across the country when it comes to individual jurisdictions, but. Nursing homes are put through the ringer, uh, in a hospital, you only have to, um, test and evaluate your smoke and fire dampers every six years in a nursing home it's every four years.

So it it's things like that. That help me kind of clarify the niche of. Health services that I wanted to focus on from a fire and life safety perspective. Whereas in a hospital, they might engage in engineering firm like yours to, um, support their in-house fire and life safety folks. But when it comes to a nursing home, It's usually the maintenance director who is also responsible for turning rooms, painting rooms, taking temperatures, who's responsible for life safety and emergency preparedness as well.

So I just saw an opportunity to be a third party supporter and provider for these kinds of facilities that just don't have those in-house resources. I see. I see. That makes a lot of sense. I, uh, that's an, I appreciate you illustrating the, the differences between the two, uh, you know, occupancies and their similarities and differences, but mm-hmm, , uh, I wanted to move on to, you know, you have a specialty in emergency preparedness and kind of, uh, planning.

Uh, different events, uh, like this, and I've never had the opportunity to speak with anyone with, um, an area of expertise, uh, in this, uh, field, if you will. And so I wanted to, uh, talk to you about, you know, like, Kind of what emergency preparedness is and, um, you know, uh, maybe contrast that to the kind of, um, traditional, uh, fire and life safety for, for buildings that I'm used to, or that you're, you know, aware of.

That's kind of more the fire protection engineer specialty T well, like I said earlier, it it's kind of all dovetailed together. One of the things that I. Stress when I'm presenting either on life safety or emergency preparedness, um, is that compliance for compliance sake is something that a provider should never focus on.

They should never just focus on checking the Bo the boxes and meeting minimal compliance, subsequent to some major. Disasters that have happened in our country since nine 11 through Katrina, through major wildfires, uh, and the impact those disasters have had on healthcare and particularly long term care.

Um, CMS again, along with many other states, um, have put a lot of focus on regulatory compliance for emergency preparedness. Uh, in California, a few years ago, they passed a bill that made assisted living. Um, that required assisted living facilities to be better prepared for all the different disasters and emergencies that can happen in a state like California.

One of the reasons that life safety compliance and emergency preparedness has kind of aligned in my practice or my scope of practice is because when CMS comes in and regulates a facility and assesses their life safety, they issue K tags or diff deficiencies. If something is, is out of compliance, but.

In 2016, CMS adopted some very stringent emergency preparedness requirements for skilled nursing facilities, hospitals, and 17 different CMS provider type recipients that receive federal funding to operate healthcare facilities. And this includes inpatient hospice, dialysis centers, behavioral care facilities, and so forth.

Um, they put some. Very specific requirements. Uh, and they developed, what's known as E tags that, um, identify the different levels of preparedness that are required to be in these facilities. Typically in most states, it's the life safety surveyors that now also look at the emergency preparedness elements of an operation.

So it was kind of a natural pairing that my. Focus evolved from just life safety to emergency preparedness. And some of the main elements of emergency preparedness in healthcare facilities is the same as emergency preparedness from a community based perspective. Emergency preparedness needs to have an all hazards approach, meaning facilities need to know what the hazards and perils are.

so that they can appropriately, uh, prepare for those types of events to occur. Now, in my experience, Emergency preparedness was very geocentric prior to these regulations. Meaning if I was working with the facility in the Midwest, their emergency plan typically focused on the obvious fire flood power failure, but then a lot of focus on severe weather when I'm working in the bay area or a seismically active area.

The plan seems to be. All about seismic activity. If it's a coastal region, it's tropical depression or hurricane, I know you'll feel sorry for me, GU, but I've even had to go to Hawaii and do work with some of the nursing homes, uh, around Pearl Harbor in Pearl city. And their plan was all about tsunami and title search.

So the shift has been a focus on an all hazards approach. It's regard. Of what the type of emergency occurring facilities need to have a plan to deal or manage these types of emergencies with an all hazards approach. What typically equates to hazard vulnerability assessment and the implementation and integration of the incident command system into their operations.

Very interesting. Wow. I like that. Uh, your take on that it has become, uh, more holistic in nature, emergency preparedness. I think that's a very, uh, very cool insight on, uh, the field, you know, uh, it's, uh, not always very, um, Uh, apparent to me how all that works. I do. I've seen people who are employed is like that's their entire job function is, uh, emergency preparedness and, you know, facilitating this kind of, um, uh, these services.

Where, you know, you're helping communities, or sometimes I'm sure that I've seen it for people who specialize for schools or college campuses. So I really think it's a, a big emerging field. I think, uh, fire and life safety and safety in general is kind of gaining steam all the time. So it's, uh, very interesting for me to hear you speak about, uh, this, uh, subsect of, uh, safety and, um, more like, uh, I don't know, it's a safety and, uh, more, uh, broad sense than, uh, just the building.

I guess it's more of, uh, safety, maybe on a similar level, like you were saying, you've had experience with, uh, insurance companies and how they evaluate risk. They evaluate risk, uh, more holistically in, uh, earthquake, you know, flood and some of these other factors that you're talking about, but. I'm not so involved, usually on the nature perspective of, of safety and maybe for some mass notification systems and having a button on the panel that says, Hey, there's a, you know, a weather event or a tornado or something, but that's about it.

Yeah, well, you use the word. Um, holistic. What I like to say is we, we focus on a programmatic approach to fire life safety and emergency ENVE, uh, preparedness. It's not just all about the built environment, which is clearly one of your specialties. It's not about the hydraulics or the voltage. Uh, it's about the plan.

It's about the training. It's about the drills, the exercises, um, the stuff. The supplies, the contingencies, the relationships that providers need to develop with their competitors, which might be the nursing home or the hospital down the street. And everybody under normal conditions is focused on putting heads and beds and competing with the other entities, but in a true emergency or disaster scenario, uh, it's gotta be an all in all together.

Programmatic approach, you know, just putting this into action. When I sit in my office, um, doing, uh, reports and paperwork and research, uh, in the background, uh, Go on a, an app. And I will listen to my department, my old department back in Illinois, running out on calls all day. Well, yesterday while I was in my, uh, office, I heard them dispatch to what came in as an smell of gas in the area when units got on the scene.

They discovered that they had a high pressure underground, uh, gas leak. Uh, the situation was caused by a cable crew that was trying to bury some TV cable. They punctured this high pressure gas line. And one of those nursing homes that I talked to you about earlier that were built on my watch was a hundred yards down wind from.

This high pressure gas leak that was gonna take up to six hours to remediate. Uh, the gas company said it's gonna take us till about this came, the call came in around 10 or 11 in the morning. They didn't think that they would have the situation rectified until about five or six that evening. Um, I heard the response upgraded from just a simple single engine response for a gas leak to what we call a.

Still in box alarm where multiple fire units and ambulances were dispatched to that nursing home to initiate, uh, relocation and potentially evacuation of the facility, because that natural gas was, you know, Right there. So it never got to the point where they had to evacuate, but they had to relocate people from the closest area of the building.

This multistory nursing home to the furthest area, crews were on standby for several hours. But the point I'm trying to make is that that nursing home. Identified, um, you know, things like that as part of their emergency plan. And when the fire crews showed up, it wasn't a foreign operation to anyone. It was.

Kind of business as usual. Uh, the incident commander within the care center likely worked seamlessly with the incident commander from the fire department, uh, and they were able to deal with the operation in a proactive way where, um, you know, the. Maybe saying business as usual is a little bit of a stretch, but it was a well orchestrated operation where no one was hurt.

Uh, the people of the facility were safeguarded. The operators of the facility knew about pipelines and hazmat trucks that, um, drive right down the street. So it didn't come as a huge surprise that they had to go into the emergency operation. I like that. That's interesting. I always enjoy it when people give, uh, real world accounts of, you know, when these plans are, you know, when pieces of their projects or operations are, are put into practice, I think it really drives home the, the meaning of what we do and.

You know, real world example, which all sounds kind of nebulous when you're speaking about, you know, uh, this, uh, these lofty ideals of, you know, having being prepared and having everybody know their role. But when you explain it, like, uh, you know, people being able to protect their, their facility and, and the, and those who are, uh, part of the building, um, in a real world application, I think that always helps drive the message home of why we do what we do.

So I like. Well, you know, this is what I've always said. It's a normal day at your facility until it's not. And yesterday at about 11 o'clock in the morning, it was a normal day at that nursing home until they got a knock on the door from a local police officer saying prepare to either evacuate a. Or relocate because this incident had just occurred, you know, the same is true with whatever the peril might be.

The process of hazard vulnerability assessment is a specific process that all healthcare providers under CMS regulations are required to go through. There are some tools that are out there. One such tool that's commonly used was produced by Kaiser Permanente in California. And it's a simple spreadsheet that lists 85 different perils from technological failure to mechanical failure to systems, failure to fire, to flood, to active shooter, to.

Civil unrest. Uh, it even includes zombie apocalypse as the final peril that, um, the facility, uh, as a team would rate, what is the probability. What are our levels of preparedness so we can determine what is our risk. And now these facilities are no longer arbitrarily speculating. What could happen. They know that there is, uh, an underground gas line within a quarter mile of their facility.

They understand that tornadoes could be a threat in a place like Oklahoma or Kansas or Illinois, or just about anywhere in the country, but to what. And that's what the HVA process does. Is it scales, you know, with an algorithm after you input the data, what is your probability of these things? And then what CMS says is that facilities, whether it's a hospital.

A nursing home, a hospice, or when it comes to best practices, any kind of business, you need to focus on your high probability of threats and perils. So if you are in the Midwest, yeah, you should focus a lot on tornadoes, but if you've got that gas line, you need to focus on evacuation. Uh, you know, it just can go on and on figuratively speaking that way, but you need to know what you don't know, so that you can plan.

Appropriately and it comes to, no, it comes as no surprise. When the officer knocks on the door and says, there's a gas line leaking down the street and you say to yourselves, what, what gas line or, you know, whatever scenario you can think of. Yeah. That's a great piece about, uh, probability and severity and yeah.

Doing a risk analysis. I like that. That's, that's essentially what it is. It's a risk analysis and that's what CMS says in its regulations. Facilities are required to do a risk analysis. Their plan needs to be. Based on that risk analysis. And they also have to develop continuity of operation plans or business continuity plans to continue their service and their operations through a disaster.

Cuz you know, when it comes right down to it in any healthcare facility or maybe any occupancy for that matter, it comes down to, you know, two questions. Should I stay or should I go, are we gonna shelter in place or are we gonna evacuate? . Yeah, that's great. Well, Stan, I always like to, uh, kind of wrap up my interviews with, um, you know, professional development questions.

Um, and I just always like to ask from people who are really plugged in, um, you know, what kind of resources or, uh, professional societies, um, would you recommend to professionals that are interested about, uh, uh, your area of expertise? Well, certainly, you know, being a member of, uh, the national fire protection association is something that, that I would recommend.

And I would assume that many folks with an interest in this field are already connected to, uh, state fire, marshal, or fire. Uh, inspector associations, fire chiefs, associations, um, other professional organizations that are out there even though I'm retired 18 years now, you know, I stay connected with the international association of fire chiefs, uh, the fire marshals associations, uh, and different.

Um, you know, organizations and agencies that can provide me with educational updates and things that I can stay connected to the industry without just always focusing on, you know, my own clients and what their needs are. Um, I like to be aware of, um, you know, one of the parts of my practice is that I do now a lot of.

Shooter training, armed, intruder, active shooter, uh, work with many schools. I work with people who've experienced these shootings. So as much experience as you can get to help you drive your passion. And I gotta really focus on passion because GU I get the impression you not an impression. I know that you've got a passion for what you do.

I hope it's clear that I have a passion for what I do. You know, you've gotta follow your passion. With professional development, don't get stuck in your own silo. It would be easy for me to, uh, just focus on healthcare. But as an example, uh, I'm gonna go to right here in Arizona next week, the Arizona fire chief's association conference, and sit in on a few sessions that are, are, uh, that, that they'll be presenting.

So it's like, you know, you can never learn enough when it comes to this stuff. And when it comes to emergency preparedness, You always learn something new after every event, after reviewing every after action report, reading every critique, every article that's out there. Uh, it's a continuous process.

Awesome. Well, I think, uh, I can't think of any other better way to wrap things up. Stan. I just want to thank you so much for your time and, um, yeah, I really enjoyed, uh, speaking with you today. Um, thank. Gus. It's been my pleasure and I hope we get to talk again. Sure. We will. Thanks for listening. Everybody.

Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again. And we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

https://www.wachter.com/careers

Welcome to episode 12 of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are talking about passive fire protection.  This episode explores the differences and similarities around fire walls, barriers, and partitions. This episode I discuss common misconceptions and the very difficult topic that is proper application of fire separations. Don’t forget that you can get two more solocasts a month at patreon.com/firecodetech.

What are Fire Walls, Barriers and Partitions?

What are the codes and standards surrounding fire walls, barriers and partitions?

What is a firestop?

What are fire protection ratings?

Transcription

Hello. Welcome to the solo cast of fire code tech in these episodes. It's just gonna be me, your host, Gus Gagliardi. There's gonna be a range of topics, but I'm gonna talk about specific technologies, installation, standards, codes, and how they work as well as some other interesting topics that don't neatly fit inside of the context of a normal interview.

Hello, all welcome to episode 12 of fire code tech, the solo. On this episode, we're talking about fire barriers, fire, partitions, and firewalls. Wanna take a moment and thank our sponsors for this episode. Waner but we will be giving more information about Waner and the opportunities associated later on in this episode.

Yes. I wanted to talk about fire and smoke dampers, but I realized that you can't very well. Talk about fire and smoke dampers. If you haven't laid the groundwork for. What the different types of rated separations are in construction. So on today's episode, we're gonna talk about what are firewalls barriers and partitions, how are they rated?

What are the codes and standards surrounding firewalls barriers and partitions, and answer the question. What is a fire? Don't forget to subscribe. So you never miss an episode and follow us on social media. Oh. And if you could give us a five star rating on apple podcast, it would be a big help to the show.

Let's get into the show. So I wanna start with what are firewalls barriers and partitions. And so I'm gonna go through these in order of, um, most complexity to least complex. So we're gonna start out with firewalls. Another reason why I thought it was important to go over this subject is people frequently, uh, exchange the terms, um, firewalls barriers and partitions synonymously, and they are anything, but, um, synonymous in the building code or the standards, which address these rated separations.

So. As always, we're going to, you know, start with the basis of our discussion in, you know, the codes and standards surrounding the subject. And, and, you know, as always, we're going to discuss it through the lens of the United States codes and standards, even though the approach may be similar despite your, um, geographic location, um, to understand these terms, they are, uh, likely going to be, uh, very similar, but always remember to base your interpretation of the subject.

In the codes and standards that apply to your jurisdiction and then to seek in those codes and standards, the definitions and criteria as they are defined in the document that is adopted by law. So for the purposes of our discussion today, I've pulled some. Definitions out of the 2015 international building code, which is what, um, Oklahoma as a state adopts and what Oklahoma city adopts.

But, um, they'll be very similar in other versions of the international building code are the I B C and um, other versions of. Different, uh, guiding fire and life safety documents. So let's start with firewall. Firewall is defined in chapter two of the international building code as a fire resistance rated wall, having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extend continuously from the foundation to, or through.

Without either collapse of the wall with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow the collapse of construction on either side, without collapse of the wall. So this is the most important part of firewall and why my ears always perk up when people toss this term around, um, just kind of nonchalant or casual.

Uh, a firewall means this rated separation is structurally independent from the rest of the building. So that means, um, through the, the slab, you know, um, and then also penetrating extending through the roof. And so this is a, a considerable, um, construction. And, uh, considerable cost. So anytime I hear people say firewall, my, my ears perk up and I, you know, I ask, do you really mean firewall?

Um, oftentimes they don't, but, um, I think it's very important. Firewall is the most, um, I don't know if intense is the right word, but, um, it's the most expensive. It is the, um, most challenging to design, uh, around. And so it's, uh, it's a good one to start with because it is probably the most difficult one to accommodate in the building code.

There are only a couple ways in which you can define a building, uh, you know, like two separate buildings within one larger building, or, you know, the, the question is commonly asked to me, how do we determine. You know, these two structures are the same. So in the eyes of the fire and life safety tabulations of the building.

And so there are two common ways for you to determine if these buildings are sufficiently separated. One of 'em is if you have a firewall between the two buildings, then this is a way in the eyes of the building code to. Separate these. Uh, so if you have building a separated by a firewall from building B, these are two separate buildings and two separate fire and life safety calculations.

Um, in regards to the building code, this is an important distinction because neither a fire barrier nor a fire partition have this effect. So the definition we just read was in chapter two, section 2 0 2 and definitions of the international building. but more specific requirements for firewalls can be found in chapter seven, fire and smoke protection features, and more specifically section 7 0 6 for firewalls.

So now that we've touched on a firewall, uh, let's talk a little bit about, um, how these firewalls barriers and partitions are rated. Um, before we move on to barriers and partitions, and there's a lot more to cover on firewalls. Um, we'll see how this episode goes. And, um, there could be a situation in which I dedicate an entire episode to firewalls.

They're so challenging and, uh, important to the building code and the way that we construct buildings, the fire protection rating is defined as the period of time that an opening protective, it will maintain the ability to confine a. As determined by the test specified in section seven 15, furthermore, it states ratings are stated in hours or minutes.

So further on our discussion of, uh, this fire protection rating. Um, w let's talk about NFPA 2 21, which is a very important document when talking about fire walls, fire barriers and fire partitions. NFPA 2 21 is the standard for high challenge, firewalls, firewalls, and fire barrier walls. So NFPA 2 21 is a great document.

If you are confused about firewalls, fire barriers and fire partitions. It goes in depth more into this subject than the building code does. Um, the building code will tell you when you need these, um, how to construct them and, uh, some of those requirements. But I feel like if you are just diving into this subject and having a little bit of difficulty.

Understanding the differences between the three, um, N FPA 2 21 is great for, um, providing a little bit more information on the subject. Wanna take a moment to talk about our sponsor today? Waner Waner is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm.

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That's w a C HT E r.com/careers. Let's get back to the show. Another great note about N FPA 2 21 is it is a reference standard in the building code. So depending on what version of the building code is adopted. You can go take a look and see what version of NFPA 2 21 is adopted. So this standard does have the, um, effect of law, depending on what portions are adopted in your, uh, applicable building code.

So I bring up NFPA 2 21 because I wanted to talk about the standards, which describe the fire protection rating. So what standard do you have to test your listed assembly or structure? Um, to get it rated at a certain, um, hour rating or minute rating. So you can find these, uh, standards, these listing standards, um, in both NFPA 2 21 as well as the international building code.

So the first one is. C slash UL 2 63, which is the standard for safety of fire tests of building construction materials. And the second one is a S T M E one 19 standard test methods for fire tests of building construction materials. And then, and if you look at MF B a 2 21, it also says any other approved test methods, um, in regards to a section 4.3 point.

4.3 0.2 describes the analytical methods, which are acceptable in order to evaluate a rated separation. Just a bit of example, information, or I guess, exposition on the subject. Firewalls and fire barriers are generally in ratings of 1, 2, 4, so that's hours. So generally, uh, most of what you will see is probably in.

Uh, one to, to two, and, and sometimes you will get in the extreme scenario in which you see a three or four hour, um, firewall. And so, yeah, these are these start to get very expensive firewalls are, um, very difficult for structural engineers to design and, um, it, it presents a lot of. Difficult, um, design and construction, uh, dilemmas.

So these are really things that unless they are extremely necessary are to be avoided. Let's move on to a fire barrier. A fire barrier is described as a fire resistance rated wall assembly, a materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained. Fire barriers is addressed in section 7 0 7 in the international building code.

We want to talk about this, uh, topic of continuity. It's mentioned in the definition of fire barrier and fire partition. So these firewalls barriers and partitions are listed and rated assemblies. So we want to keep the integrity of these listed and rated. So when we penetrate these assemblies or when we have an opening in these assemblies, we need to protect these, uh, openings slash penetrations.

Say you have a piece of duct work going through a rated assembly. Or a piece of pipe that is going through a rated assembly. You need to provide a listed fire stop product in order to, um, retain the continuity of this listed assembly. All the different rated separations we've talked about today. Are a component of passive fire protection.

Fire barriers are much more common than firewalls as, uh, most, uh, facilities or buildings are not large enough or of significant of enough, uh, fire and life safety challenge to need the use of a firewall. There's a list at the beginning of 7 0 7 that describe some common places where you might find fire barriers.

I'll just list a couple shaft enclosures, uh, interior, exit stairways and ramp construction. Um, exit passageways, horizontal exits, uh, atriums atriums, incidental uses control areas. All these are examples of, um, places which have fire barrier requirements. And so, uh, all these things are a lot more common than needing to provide a totally separate building.

At least I guess I should say these are more common in the, in the occupancies, in the. Types of buildings that I'm used to dealing with maybe in large cities or in, um, exceedingly high hazard. Um, if you did business in a lot of just extremely hazarded locations, then you would, um, be more, uh, have more frequent use of firewalls, but they're expensive.

So owners typically don't want em, so there's mixed use, not separated, which I was speaking with the fire Marshall justice last. He's saying that, uh, 95 plus percentage 95, plus percentage of all the buildings that he deals with are, uh, mixed use, not separated, but, um, if he did have a, uh, mixed use separated, um, occupancy, then fire barrier would be the way that you split up your building in order to, um, give yourself a larger building allowance.

We could do a whole episode and probably will do one over occupancy and, and use it's a very, uh, deep topic. But, uh, I thought I'd offer that up for another area in which these listed separations are common. The last one on the list is fire partitions. Fire partitions is described in the building code as a vertical assembly of materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which openings are protect.

So here's the big misconception point. Here is the difference between fire barriers and fire partitions. Here's a good excerpt out of the 2021 edition of an FPA. 2 21 says fire barrier wall shall be continuous from one of the following or combination thereof, an exterior wall to an exterior wall, a floor below to a floor or roof.

One fire barrier wall to another fire barrier wall firewall or high challenge firewall, having a fire resistance rating of not less than that required for the fire barrier wall. So these are, uh, a list of ways in which you have to have continuity for, um, fire barrier walls. Um, fire partitions are. A little bit less restrictive as far as where they can terminate fire partitions are listed in chapter seven, said chapter chapter seven, section 7 0 8 in the international building code.

Here are a list of a couple different areas in which you can find, uh, the requirements for fire partitions. Separation in walls as required by four 20.2 for groups I one R one R two and R three walls separating tenant spaces and covered and covered in open mall buildings as required by 4 0 2 0.4 0.2 0.1 corridor walls as required by 10 20.1.

Elevator lobby separation is required by section 3006 0.2. RIS balconies is required by 10, 19.2. So as you can see that these are not as common of, um, types of partition, so specific occupancy. So they have a list of institutional and residential occupancies, where you would have these, uh, separations around, uh, different spaces within the building.

And then, uh, yeah, so this, uh, illustration of where you would find these, these partitions, and for me, the location in which these separations are used is the most telling part of how they differ between each other. And also the, the continuity where these, um, Listed separations start and stop are also a huge way to determine how to, uh, describe and differentiate between these two.

Just a recap here at the end of this episode, we discussed what are firewalls barriers and partitions? What are the codes and standards surrounding firewalls barriers and partitions? What is fire? And also we spoke about how these systems are rated and listed. That's it for this episode, don't forget if you are liking this content and you want to hear more solocast episodes.

You can go check out patreon.com/fire code tech. That's Patreon, Dott com slash fire code. For two more of these episodes a month for the price of a cup of coffee. We'll see you next time on fire code tag. Thanks for listening everybody. Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business.

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes and standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional. If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

This Episode is sponsored by Wachter.

https://www.wachter.com/careers

Welcome to episode 33 of Fire Code Tech! On this episode we are speaking with Alexandra DeLucca who is a current student at the University of Maryland. We speak about Alexandra’s extensive internship experience, coursework at the University of Maryland, and much more. Tune in if you would like to hear from a student who has an immense amount of experience in professional development and how to succeed as a young professional.

How did you get started in fire and life safety?

Would you speak about your time so far at the University of Maryland?

What have been your favorite classes in your bachelor’s degree?

Would you speak about your internship experiences?

What has your experience been in research as regarding wildfires?

Where do you see your career going as of right now?

What advice would you give to individuals looking to get hired for an internship?

What do you see as trends in the industry right now?

Where do you go to learn about fire and life safety?

Transcription

Hello, all welcome to the show. I'm Gus Gagliardi, and this is fire code tech on fire code tech. We interview fire protection professionals from all different careers and backgrounds in order to provide insight and a resource for those in the field. My goal is to help you become a more informed fire protection.

Professional fire code tech has interviews with engineers and researchers, fire marshals, and insurance professionals, and highlights topics like codes and standards, engineering systems, professional development, and trending topics in the industry. So if you're someone who wants to know more about fire protection or the fascinating stories of those who are in the field, you're in the right place.

Welcome to episode 32 of fire code tech. This episode is sponsored by Waner more information on Waner later on in the show. In this episode, we have Alexandra DeLuca, Alexandra talks to us about her extensive internship experience, as well as her time at the university of. We get into some very interesting topics like wildfires and what it means to become a professional and learn how to network.

If you are somebody who is looking to hone your soft skills or find out how to get an internship, I think you are really gonna enjoy this episode. Don't forget to follow us on social media. So you never miss an episode and subscribe. Oh, and one more thing. If you want to go give us a five star rating and review on iTunes, that would be a big help.

All right. Let's dive into the show. Well, hello, Alexandra. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me guys. This is a really exciting opportunity. cool. Well, I wanted to get started in traditional fashion and get a sense of how you found an interest in fire and life safety.

Yeah, so I am from Maryland. I'm from Columbia, Maryland. And when I was growing up, I always kind of excelled in my stem classes like math and sciences, and I liked them a lot in high school. So. I kind of just figured I would go into the stem field cuz that's what I was good at. That's what I like to do.

And engineering, um, was just such a huge field. I mean, it, it still is obviously, but everyone was kind of telling me to look at engineering and I did a few project lead the way courses in high school. So I was pretty familiar with it and I just decided that that's where I was gonna start at least in college.

But. Every time that I went on a college tour, like I looked at the different engineering disciplines that the colleges had, none of them necessarily stuck out to me as something that I would love. Um, I think most of the other colleges I applied to, I applied undecided or mechanical just cuz that's so broad.

But then I went on a tour of Maryland and that's my state school. So it would, would've been like a really good like deal, like, um, instate situation stuff. And I would've been close to. And I went on a tour of university of Maryland. I went to their, uh, engineering department and they were giving a presentation on all the different disciplines.

And I remember going up to the table and it was all the classic ones, like chemical mechanical and civil, but then they had one flyer that had a bunch of flames on it. So I was kind of like, oh, this is different. I've never seen it before. And I picked it up and I started reading about fire protection engineering.

I was like, wow, that sounds really cool. And, um, they did the poll presentation on fire protection. And then I think it was Dr. Milky that I went up and talked to and I was asking questions and him and Nicole Hollywood, I had like met them a bunch of times before going, deciding fire protection, but they were super, super supportive and like, they did a great job.

Showing off the department and kind of explaining how all the different opportunities that fire protection gives you and how it's a really small community. And they like showed me the fire tornado and it was really, really cool. So after just getting excited for like the first time about. What I could be doing in college.

I decided to go in and apply to university of Maryland fire protection engineering. Um, and I got in and I started off with that and I never really looked back. Like it's been a really great experience entire time. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. I have a similar experience, uh, kind of with the general inclination towards a stem degree, and then falling into a, you know, a great program.

Fire and life safety. That's so awesome that you got a chance to, um, get involved with the, a program that is renowned, uh, really all over the world for fire protection engineering. And, and it was in your home state. I mean, that's about as good as it gets really, but that's awesome. Yeah. I got super lucky.

I was really happy about it. That's great. Yeah. So I totally resonate like that. You kind of know that you like doing math and science stuff and you're like, whoa, what is this fire protection thing with such promise and, and interesting things going on, but that's great. I love that exposition. Thank you.

Uh, every time I get, uh, you know, the opportunity to speak with somebody who has an experience with like a different educational program within fire protection, life safety, cuz there's so few that actually. Are out there, you know, there might be a half dozen across the nation and you know, those vary from technology degrees to engineering degrees and there's, uh, even fewer master's programs out there.

I like to try to get some insight about, you know, what's going on at these schools so that people can hear about 'em. Um, yeah, I just wanted to ask, uh, if you would give some. High level overview of kind of your coursework and, um, what you've enjoyed so far about your time at Maryland. Yeah, of course. So going in as a freshman, you don't do a whole lot of fire protection.

Um, like any other college, it's a lot of gen ed and you take your basic stem, weed out classes, like the math and the physics and chemistry, stuff like that. But you do take a one credit course with Dr. Milky. And, um, he kind of just teaches you like about what is fire protection at university of Maryland.

And this course is super great, cuz it's offered to people who aren't already in fire protection. So. People. And like on the side in the engineering school can take the course if they find it interesting. And then, um, if they really like the course, then they'll switch into fire protection. So I think this class is really good for recruiting people into the program.

And then when you get into your sophomore year, it's kind of the same thing. You take a lot more. General engineering classes like Thermo and mechanics, stuff like that. But you start off with one class, um, your first semester, sophomore year, that's on life safety and it's with Ken Isman and he kind of just takes you through NFPA 1 0 1.

And again is like introducing you to the NFPA, um, codes and stuff. So I think that was really helpful for going into my internship after that. And then once you get into your junior and senior year, it's all fire protection classes. So, so far as a rising senior I've taken classes that have gone to depth teaching on fire alarms, smoke control, uh, sprinklers, life safety.

And in a lot of those classes, it's dissecting the NFPA codes and getting really familiar with NFPA 13 and 72 and 1 0 1. So I think those are super helpful for the students when they're transitioning from the school, from like education to the workplace. And they're actually going to be using the NFPA codes.

It's just super helpful that like you're so familiar with them and you've looked through them like cover to cover. and then there's other classes like I've taken heat and mass transfer in fluid mechanics, and next semester I'm taking fluid dynamics. So it's kind of those classes that are like theoretical stuff.

So not as much what you're gonna use in the workplace, but kind of the background behind all of it. Yeah, that's great. It's uh, it sounds like you already have a pretty good perspective for, uh, the courses and how they'll apply to what you wanna do. Um, it's interesting. Yeah, we just, we just got our, uh, our first fire protection intern at the company that I work with, uh, this just yesterday.

So we'll date the episode, but. Yeah. And so I think it's interesting hearing you speak about how you, you know, kind of learn to apply the NFPA codes and standards and how that's a big part of the curriculum. I just wonder, um, at the degree program at Maryland, cuz I, I had this, uh, sense about my time at O.

Did it was a little bit more NFPA focused in like the, the international building code and mechanical code and, um, fire code. I mean, we did talk about 'em, but, but not, uh, nearly as much as like, uh, 1372 and 1 0 1. Um, what's your sense of that at the university of Maryland? Is that a, a similar thing or is it different in your experience?

No, we we've really mostly only focused on the FPA codes. I know we did a little bit of the international business code in my life safety class, but, um, definitely not as much as we did 1 0 1 and that's kind of what I found in the workplace is a lot of it is the FPA codes too. So I think it's helpful.

For sure. Yeah. You definitely need that rock solid basis in the, in FPA codes. Um, yeah, but I, I spend a lot of time in, uh, the international codes just due to the, um, the FPE design work that I'm in. I think it's great to have that basis, but yeah, I appreciate that. Uh, That insight. But, um, so you talked about a couple of your classes, but, um, so far, what have you enjoyed the most about, about school?

Like, what's kind of been your, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of classes you really enjoyed, but which one has really piqued your interest the most? Um, I really liked my human response to fire class. It, I think I liked it mostly because of the project that we did. um, the project that we did was we were given a building or a, a dormitory on campus.

So it was a building that most of the students were familiar with. And a lot of them had actually lived in and we had to find the egress time for the whole building at full capacity to evacuate. And we did that through Pathfinder. So we had learned a lot about Pathfinder in that class and used a lot.

And for the project, it was just really cool because the prompt said stuff like. Students in this study lounge are wearing soundproof headphones. So, you know, you kind of had to add like extra time to them, according to that. And, you know, there were like certain like, uh, rooms that were, uh, handicapped. So it was like people in these rooms had, were in wheelchairs.

So there was Pathfinder settings that you could change it to that. And I'd never worked with Pathfinder before, but I think it was really cool cuz it was just such a realistic situation that the students could relate to. And also. The Pathfinder program. I just, I really liked watching, like even the simulation when you run it, it shows the actual people walking down the building and it was really cool.

And then that's awesome. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say for, um, nonengineering classes, I've taken a few special education classes, uh, through gen EDS. And I think outside of engineering, those classes are just super interesting to. Sorry, you said special education classes. Like what, yeah. What, what does that mean?

Kinda, I don't think I understand. Um, it's learning about kind of different disabilities and like just being educated on like the history of disability and stuff like that. Um, it is just so different from my engineering classes and something that like, I would've never taken in high school or anything.

So I don't know. It's really cool to learn about. Okay. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I can see the direct overlap from your experience with Pathfinder and your interest in, um, learning how to make, uh, make things more accessible for those who have disabilities. Um, that's awesome. That's cool to hear about, uh, performance based design is something that's so neat and I have a big interest in it.

I don't get a chance to do much work involving, um, using. Performance based design in regards to egress systems for buildings. But yeah, I really have a big interest in that when I was in school, we did this, uh, my teacher was doing some research. I would think it was in our life safety class. And he had, he gave us all the same set of instructions or he would like change 'em a little bit with Cardinal directions and have us try to egress out through the.

To try and test, you know, like the effectiveness of a voice system and we all kind of did different things. It was funny to see how the students all kind of reacted, uh, differently during the, the lab. Yeah, that sounds really cool. But, um, yeah, I wanted to, uh, move on and speak a little bit more about your college career and just, uh, yeah, I didn't know if you are involved with any, uh, professional societies or organizations at school.

I'm sure that the university of Maryland has some, uh, great groups to get involved with. Yeah. University of Maryland has a bunch. Um, for me personally, I'm involved in theta TA, which is. A professional co-ed engineering fraternity. So it's a really good mix of, um, a social aspect of being able to meet other people who are engineers and you can hang out with them and do stuff, but also.

Just the having like 90 engineers of multiple different disciplines. Plus all the alumni is such an amazing networking opportunity. Like I know people in the fraternity that have reached out to the alumni and gotten jobs at Google and SpaceX, and it's just really cool that it's a very casual way of networking.

Um, but also it's really fun. Just, you know, you have like normal events like barbecues and stuff like that. So I would definitely recommend theta taught anyone. Who's interested engineering at university of Maryland. Um, I'm also involved with Clark school ambassadors and kind of what I talked about in the beginning of why I got involved in fire protection is I went to a presentation from Clark school ambassadors.

So they had people there speaking about each discipline and that kind of got me wanting to join it so that I could. Promote fire protection. And while it's like, I'm still an ambassador for the entire Clark school. Um, since there's not many fire protection engineers, I really like to kind of promote that when I'm doing the presentation, say I'm fire protection.

Like these are all the opportunities and educate people about the department. Cuz a lot of people don't know about. Yeah, that's so great. I think that, uh, people in, in all levels of the industry are trying to find ways to connect with the next generation of fire protection engineers. So I think that's awesome that you are, um, taking the opportunity to get out there and spread the word about this great field.

It sounds like you have already had so much great opportunity, um, in regards to, to working in this space. So I love hearing that. Thank you. Yeah. I'm very thankful for the opportunities that I've gone through fire protection. And, um, yeah, I like that note also about networking and how it's so important to join professional societies because of the invaluable connections and the just fun experiences you can have.

I, uh, I was involved with some groups, but I, I wish I would've done more when I was at school. So that's a great point for people to hear. But, um, yeah, I wanted to kinda move forward and, and talk, uh, about your internship experience. You've had some wonderful internships so far. Would you speak a little bit on the, uh, the different jobs you've held so far at ATS your time at, uh, during your time at the university of.

Yeah, of course. So after my freshman year, I interned at wedding Turner, which is a huge general contracting company. Um, they're nationwide. And so this internship was definitely more, it wasn't fire protection. It was definitely more like general engineering. Um, a lot of the other interns there were mechanical or civil.

But since I was fire projection, I kind of thought it was a really cool opportunity to just be introduced to the built environment. And, um, so for the first half of it, I spent it, um, in the office and I was planning. I was helping plan for another project that they were doing in the future. So I was doing the bid calls and.

I would call up the different subcontractors and I would kind of tell them about the project that we were doing. And just through that, I gained such good speaking skills, like over the phone. Cause I'd never really done cold calls like that before. And then also we were working a lot with the budgeting for the new project.

So it was really just cool to see like what went into a project before it even gets put on the ground. . And then, um, the second half of the internship, I was on a construction site and I was kind of just making sure that everything was running smoothly and I would like go down and I was assigned to, you know, the painting and the insulation subcontractors.

So I would keep going down and checking their progress to make sure that they're completing what they need to do for the day and staying on schedule. And that was also just really cool to see, you know, the project being put together and like how much can like actually go wrong in construction and how everybody can fix it and like work on their feet.

Um, so I think that was the, as a first internship, it was perfect, cuz it really introduced me to general engineering, the built environment. And then after my, um, so my second semester, sophomore year, I ended up getting a co-op at Walt Disney world. So I wasn't in school for that semester. Um, and I went down to Florida and I got to work with the fire protection team, and that was my first real fire protection experience.

So it was a lot of, I was introduced to Revit and AutoCAD and, um, I'd never worked with them before, so I was kind of just figuring it out, but I was doing a lot. Design planning and like kinda making the drawings like up to date. So I would have to like go into a building and like, if stuff was changed around, I'd like go market and come back and change it.

And then, um, A lot of, it was also, I was doing, uh, smoke testing work. You would go in, and it kind of taught me like about the fire alarms and the smoke detectors and like how you do all the testing and stuff for that, which I found to be really cool. And then I also learned a little bit about fire dynamics through the internship, which I'm not even taking that class until next semester, but I think just being in the workplace and being surrounded by fire protection kind.

Elevates you like even more and like it's learning on the job. So it was super, super helpful and just such a cool opportunity to be, um, working for Walt Disney world, which had always been a dream company of mine. It was also one of the reasons why I joined fire protection, cuz I knew that it was huge at Disney and um, yeah, their internship program.

Absolutely incredible. Um, they have like 300 just engineering interns, uh, working together. It was really, really cool. And wow. So that the semester that I did that was, um, when COVID hit. So unfortunately we all, we didn't finish our internships. Um, and I went home around, uh, April May-ish. But, um, there was a posting for another project management, uh, internship that was locally in Maryland.

So I applied for it and it was for Doyle construction company. So I went back and I was doing a little bit more with them on, uh, I was doing more project management, construction work, um, and it was cool doing it a second time around cuz I felt like I had a lot more responsibilities. And the project that I was doing was like, just starting.

So again, it was like a lot of the planning and like making the schedule for. I can't believe you got some great experience, like getting a general sense of, uh, you know, how the construction process works, getting the opportunity to work with some general contractors and then also getting to work with some fire protection engineers and see some inspecting testing and maintenance and some fire dynamics as well.

It sounds like that's all great experience. Yeah. They're really awesome experiences. And, um, this summer I'm gonna do something a little bit more similar to what I did at Disney. It's a fire protection internship for Arab, um, and they're a international company, so they have locations all over the globe, which I found to be really, really cool.

Um, so I'm gonna be working specifically with their Boston office, um, and I'm really excited for that. That's gonna be great. Yeah. We were talking a little bit off air about, um, your next role and, and how you're excited to, uh, get into the, to the BIM and the modeling and rev it a little bit more. That's that's great.

I think you're gonna really enjoy it. I do a lot of BIM work at the company I work for now, and I, I have a lot of fun with it and it's great. Cuz uh, every day is a, a different challenge. But yeah, I wanted to, uh, talk a little bit about, and, um, you could share whatever you would like about, uh, your research that you've been involved with.

Would you speak a little bit about, because I always hear about, um, wildfires and you know, how we're trying to learn. Fires in nature and, and, uh, really kind of closed a gap on this, um, natural phenomenon, but it's, uh, kind of outside of my wheelhouse as far as, uh, um, like what I do on a day to day basis.

So I saw that you had some experience with that. I didn't know if you would like to. Want to take a moment to talk about our sponsor today. Ter Waner is a family owned business to provide services in many commercial and industrial market sectors, including electrical and fire alarm systems, the internet of things, digital transformation, and much, much more LTER is headquartered out of Lenexa, Kansas, but is decentralized in that.

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I had never really learned anything about wildfires, uh, either in my classes or like, I didn't know that much outside of, um, my research, but, uh, I started doing this research project with Dr. Milky and the research that we did was on occupant evacuation behavior and wild land fires. So we focused on people who lived in wildland, urban interface area.

and originally, uh, we wanted to create a timeline kind of, of how long it takes the average person to go through the pre movement steps of evacuating once they hear the fire signal. Um, but we learned as we started, uh, gathering information that there's really not much information on the actual timing.

Um, So what we kind of focused more on through the research was we were gathering data from existing articles and we were interviewing different people like professionals, um, in the field. And people have also done research on that and we kind of focused on what pre movement actions people actually took.

And cuz you know, when like there, when you get the signal that there's like, you need to evacuate. There's so much going through your mind, like there's a fire and it's, you know, it can like take down your house, your whole livelihood, like people who own farms and ranches and stuff like that. So it was a lot of what goes through people's minds when they get a signal.

And also what, um, what evacuation signal works best, you know, is it like. Like a alarm or is it sending just a text message to people's phones? Like what is the most effective in getting people to evacuate? And, um, what we kind of learned about this is like, well, what I learned, cuz I don't live in an area with a lot of wildfires.

Um, and like, so if I, if there was a wildfire, like I would absolutely evacuate, but I learned through this research that a lot of people want to stay and defend their property. Either because, you know, they don't wanna lose their house or they have animals there. Like they have a farm or they have crops.

So the people who do wanna stand, defend their property, what can they do to make it safer for them? Like how can they set up their land or what resources can they get that would make it a better situation for them to be able to like, fight this fire. Wow. Yeah. I don't have much experience either. I feel like I would wanna, even as much as I know about fire, I think I'd be pretty, uh, pretty driven to want to protect my home.

And this thing has all of my, uh, things that are important to me and like, uh, such a huge investment of, uh, A huge piece of your net worth is probably your house and all the things inside of it. So I don't know. That's kind of an interesting, uh, thing to think about your head telling you, Hey, we probably should get outta here in your, in your heart telling you, oh my gosh.

You know, like I can only really get what you can. Shoving the car or whatever to get out, but yeah, absolutely. That's a wild scenario to talk about. So I wanted to circle back to that, uh, your time at, uh, Walt Disney, even though it sounds like you kind of, uh, had a, a wild ride, um, with the pandemic and whatnot and no pun intended, but, um, Uh, so like when you were doing this inspection testing and maintenance, like, so were you walking around, like with the, with the can of smoke on a pole and like actually applying it to smoke detectors or like, what kind of were you doing when you were, um, you know, kind of looking at, uh, smoke in the different areas and you talked about it for rides, but yeah, I'd love to hear more about that.

I think that sounds really fascinat. Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what we were doing. Um, so there, I didn't, I usually wasn't the one that was spraying it. Uh, but sometimes they would let me, which was cool. Um, but a lot of what we were doing was spraying it and then you kind of see how long it takes to go into the, um, notification and then to go into the alarm.

So they have specific times. That, um, and it was all through computer programming. So you had to time, like at what point does it go into that? It was, it was notified that there is smoke. And then at what point does it go into, okay. That was like enough that it it's an alarm and we need to like shut down.

Um, so that was a lot of the testing that we did. Interesting. Yeah. I've had the opportunity to do some of that testing myself. I have, uh, got the chance one time to get up in a boom lift and, uh, use like a can of smoke on a duct detector and aircraft hanger. So we were up like 80 feet in the air, like trying to get the test port open on.

Duct detector and, uh, try to spray it into this, uh, this detector and this unit that's, you know, super high off the ground. And the thing is swaying in the technicians. trying to move around and get a good angle to get the smoke into this, um, this port. And so, yeah, it was really cool. Yeah. Another thing we also did testing for, um, the wiring of the pole stations and the fire alarm.

So you'd kind of go around and you would do the poll station and then you'd have a walkie-talkie and someone I would be like, okay, that was number this. And then you'd be like, yes, that was the right number. Or like, no, that's the wrong number. Oh, I got you. So your tests, the poll stations and check in the ID on the pool station, in the mm-hmm programming for the fire alarm panel.

Yeah. So it was cool to kinda learn. I was gonna say, it's cool to kind of learn about the fire alarm panel. Cause I'd never like gone experience with one man. Uh, the more experience I get as a, as a FPE, like the water and the sprinkler systems makes a lot of sense to me. But, uh, the thing that I get more confused about on a daily basis is, uh, fire alarm systems and how complex that they can get, uh, in the proprietary, uh, you know, programming for each of these systems.

It, it seems like, uh, there's so much depth there. I feel what you're saying about learning about 'em is, is cool. Yeah. But, um, so. I wanted to, you know, talk a little bit about, uh, your career and, and kind of where you see yourself going. It seems like you already have, uh, so much perspective and drive for somebody who is so early in their career.

Um, I wanted to ask, uh, like kind of, where do you see yourself going? I know it's hard to say. Sounds like you're gonna get, um, your first, like, Full on, uh, hopefully no more pandemic all summer, like fire protection, engineering, design, uh, internship this summer, but yeah. Where do you kinda, where do you see yourself leaning towards as far as, uh, a career at this point?

I think at this point, I'd probably see myself going into the built environment. Um, you know, the research I did with wildfires, I thought that was really cool and different. , but I definitely see myself in more of a construction based role. I think that's what I find be the most fun and interesting. Um, through my internships, I realize that I find design work and like rev AutoCAD to be pretty rewarding.

And I, and enjoyable. I really like doing that, but also through like my project management, construction internships, I know that I love being on site. I don't really like being at a desk 24 7. I like to get up and walk around and see what's happening. So I think hopefully, um, in like my career that I go into, I'm hoping to have a role where, you know, it's like 50 50 where I'm doing the design work for.

Different like fire suppression systems, but also I'm able to go out onto the site and look and do inspections or testing, stuff like that. Um, as far as like what company or what location, I have no idea. That's something that I'm still trying to figure out. And I, I don't. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to have it figured out.

And you know what? I had a college, I, uh, had a job for a fire suppression contractor for a while doing design before I switched to about a year in, I switched to working for an architecture and engineering firm. And, um, so you don't have to, it's just your first role in the industry. And if you find out, Hey, I, I think I want to spend some.

Time on the construction side and, and work closer to the, you know, the, the actual building part of the process. You'll have the opportunity to, but also I'm sure you could find that experience working for, um, a firm that does, uh, just fire protection engineering, because, you know, in one of these large states that you're talking about or large cities that you're talking about, potentially working in like a Boston or DC, you're gonna get a lot of opportunity to get on site, to, you know, see things firsthand that it.

That'll be a pretty unique environment. I kind of, uh, I don't know, that's just kind of my perspective, uh, being at middle of America, um, FPE and, you know, there's, we do work kind of all over the nation, but, uh, it's, I've always, uh, been super interested and, you know, big cities kind of do business in. their own special way.

Like, especially Boston has really unique codes and standards. Yeah. I think I've never worked like in a city before, so I'm very excited to see how. they handle like skyscrapers and stuff like that. That's just something that I've never worked with. Oh yeah. I'm sure you'll get a chance to high rise.

Construction is it's a whole different ball game than general construction for business occupancies. Um, I've had some projects recently, recently, where I've gotten the opportunity to work on Highrise construction. And so you'll get to probably work on some smoke control systems and steroid pressurization systems, you know, in addition to the, um, more common.

Sprinkler and fire alarm systems and definitely some standpipes, if you get a chance to work on some high-rise buildings and, and fire pumps, you know, and depending on how tall, you know, fire pumps at multiple levels within the building. So high rises are more challenging and more complex. And, and, uh, I think, uh, more fun probably too, but , uh, as long as things go well, but yeah, that's awesome.

I'm excited for. Me too. So you've had such, uh, great. I won't call it luck because obviously you have a wonderful ability to communi communicate and, you know, to really go out there and, um, uh, hustle to get work. So I just wanted to ask. um, what, what advice would you give to people who are looking to, you know, get internships as a, as a young professional?

You know, what would you tell people to do since you are, are, are an expert in it? You've done it like three, four times now. I think just the key to getting opportunities is networking and kind of just at every opportunity, you know, mentioned. Either that you're like fire protection or like talk about your career goals or what you wanna do, because you know, like when you're meeting new people in like the professional workplace, if you say like, oh yeah, I'm fire protection.

I really wanna go into like arts investigation. They could know someone in arts investigation. Like if you never mentioned that, then you wouldn't get the opportunity to go into that. So even I I've talked to so many people. Who have been like, oh yeah, my yoga instructor got me this job and it was super cool just because they mentioned that this is what they did.

Um, so I think just networking and putting yourself out there, uh, LinkedIn, I think is an amazing platform. Just the fact that you can look up from either, you can just even start at, you know, people who graduated from your school and especially with Maryland, there's so many fire protection graduate. So people who graduate from your school, and if you want a specific company, then you can like narrow it down to that company and people who graduate from your school.

And then those are people that you can just message on LinkedIn and reach out to. And I most people that I've done it a few times where. If I was interested in a role, I just messaged them on LinkedIn. And most people in fire protection are so nice, especially because like you said, a lot of people want the, the industry to grow and they're always looking for a new generation of people to come in and work.

So if you just kind try and like message. I don't know. I think you'll people have more luck than, than they expect. Um, especially with cold calling people. I think they're a lot more, they're a lot more likely to answer than you would think. Um, I also think it's really smart to start at a bigger company, at least in my experience.

I think, um, when, when other companies either big or small, see. Like a nationwide or like, um, international company, like wedding Turner, Disney, or Arab. Those are companies that people recognize. And they're more likely to ask you questions about it. Or even like, I know I've talked to, um, uh, consultants who have worked with like both white Turner and Disney, and then that gives you a common ground to kind of talk about.

So big companies, I definitely think are a good starting point. Um, and lastly, I would just say like, don't count yourself out, just cuz you're young. Um, cuz I know like a lot of internships will. I mean I think almost every internship, like. I know, even when I first started off as a freshman and I tried to get an internship at wedding Turner, they were like, the first person I talked to was like, oh, like we don't hire fire protection engineers.

But then I went and talked to another person. They were like, oh, that's really cool. Like that's different. And they gave me an interview. So I think just like don't necessarily take no as an answer. or like if they, if the application says you're too young, like we only hire juniors and above then if you still just apply and like, they might give you an interview and or if they, they might give you an interview, they might not hire you, but the next year, like they could hire you.

So I think just kind of go for opportunities and you'll get more than you think. Wow. You had a lot of great pearls of wisdom in that, uh, In that little, I, that sounds dramatic, but, um, being serious, like as somebody who has been to a bunch of career fairs and, and done that same work of going up to people and saying, Hey, you know, I'd like an internship, you know, I'd love to hear about your company.

And then people saying, well, you know, we don't really need sophomores or freshmen at the time. And, and you then, you know, coming back and being like, Hey, Paul, you know, I remember you from last year. I, you know, I've I had another internship in the meantime and I still am super fascinated about what you're doing, you know, and like that is a skill and, uh, something that is some people never kind of obtain that ability to be, uh, affable and, and try to make connections and be persistent.

You know, operating in, in any business capacity is, um, you have to have persistence and you have to have a drive to get things done. So people see that and people recognize that. And I think that's, uh, you know, a great piece of advice, even though I sound, I could sound corny at times being like, wow, you, you really got it going on, but now, you know, I'm serious.

People need to hear that. Um, it's important to, uh, keep putting yourself out there, you know, Absolutely. I have a. Yeah, I have a sister-in-law that's in school right now. And, um, I'm trying to being a, a code nerd and being somebody who has a big interest in professional development. I'm always trying to tell her to, you know, reach out to people on LinkedIn or, or, uh, you know, like connect with people who you think that what they do is cool.

because, uh, people want to talk about like, if they have a great job and they're passionate about, they want what they do, um, they want to tell people about it and they want to help out somebody who is early on in their career and is really trying to make something of themselves. So, yeah, absolutely. Even if like, you don't wanna message someone on LinkedIn and be like, Hey, I want an internship at your company, but because like, you don't, even if you don't even know that much about the company, but if you reach out to them and you're.

Hey, like, I think what you do is really, really cool. Can you tell me more about it then? They'll be like, yes. I would love to talk about what I love to do. Yeah, I think you need to be, uh, you need to be careful about your ask and like you said, make sure your ask is not too big that the ask of, Hey, would you mind telling me about, you know, what you do?

I think that's interesting. That's, you know, a phone call of five to 30 minutes is. Is nothing. That's a very minimal investment for anybody, you know, to, to give out. But if you come off too strong, I see this on LinkedIn, sometime from people there immediately, they have no rapport. And their immediate thing is to do, is to ask.

And, um, you wanna get a, a baseline of rapport with people and, and, uh, you know, connect to them. Like they're a human being, not an opportunity for you to get something absolutely. And you'll have a lot more success. Um, cuz I've seen it both ways. You know, I, I have to do it all the time for the podcast and, and talk to people and I, and I have people who will be like, do you want this certification that I'm selling?

Do you want it? And just blow up my inbox with five messages. I'm like, I wanna block you. That's about the other thing I want from you. But, uh, yeah, so that's great, but, um, yeah. Um, I love talking about, uh, professional development stuff. So you have to excuse me if I geek out for a minute, but no, you're totally fine.

Yeah. Seeing as you're like. In school and kind of in the thick of it, as far as like learning and, and getting an idea of, of what's going on in the field, I just wanted to pick your brain and see, like, do you see any, uh, what do you see as trends right now in the industry? And this could be broad, you know, like this could be business wise or, you know, fire protection wise, or, uh, you know, just construction involving construction, like.

Yeah, of course. Um, so I think fire protection wise, uh, there's a lot more emphasis on like, even when I was just doing the research on wildfires, almost everything resource that I was looking at was a recent resource. So I think definitely a lot more people are looking into wildfires and kind of switching over to that, which is really, really needed right now.

With everything going on. So I think that's a super good trend in the fire protection community to have that rising. Um, I think from like a general business or like engineering standpoint, people are trying to be a lot more sustainable and, you know, like practice, uh, stuff that's more environmentally friendly for when they're doing buildings.

I know. Air up the company that I'm gonna internet this summer. That's what they told me, like in the interviews, like that's what we're focusing a lot on this. Like we wanna be more sustainable and kind of like keep a, the world that we have and not make it worse. Um, which I love, I think that's super important.

I think every company should be held to standards of doing. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I've had, uh, they're not as common as they were when I first got in the industry, but these, uh, these jobs called lead jobs, um, which is basically like, um, uh, you basically it's, uh, like a certification for your building and you check off all of these different points for like using renewable materials or like, um, making your building more sustainable.

So I've had some experience with that. Um, you can get your building certified at different, um, degrees of, um, lead, if you will. And it's, uh, so that's interesting. I D it's hard, uh, as a fire protection person, uh, I don't understand a lot of the ways that we can buy into that sustainable movement other than, you know, The materials is really the only way I know of, or maybe, uh, we could capture like the testing liquids that could be considered, you know, like if you have to do a fire pump test, you're discharging back into the fire protection, water storage tank or something like that.

You know, it's not as linear as, uh, uh, for architects, you know, have they can just make their roof out of some. The renewable that material or something and have big impact on the, the making the whole building construction more, uh, sustainable. But it's an interesting, interesting prospect for sure. And, uh, as far as wildfires, yeah.

I keep seeing a bunch about 'em in the community. It seems like it's definitely a subject that's blowing up as far as research. Yeah, absolutely. Much needed. Oh yeah. Yeah. We gotta understand it better cuz it's uh, impacts thousands of people's lives. But um, yeah, so we're getting close to the end here, but uh, I just wanted to pick your brain on, uh, Where you like to get information about fire and life safety?

Like, um, I know we've, uh, talked a little bit about your experience so far and, um, how you've managed to succeed, but, um, yeah. What, where do you like to go to, to learn about fire and life safety? Well right now, since I'm in school, um, you know, every day that like I'm going to my classes, I'm learning more and more about fire and life safety.

So just being a student is like I'm taking in so much knowledge every day. Um, and also, you know, through my internships are just talking to. Professionals in the field. If you say like you ask them any question, like, oh, like what do you do? Um, then they can like, go on and on. They'll be like, oh, like, I'd love to like read this.

And like, you should definitely, you know, if you look at like N FPA like this, then you can find, you know, whatever. So just talking to people in the field. Uh, my professors, I think the NFPA handbooks definitely super great resource for everyone. Um, and J I don't know. I think they're, once you get, uh, once you understand how to read them, then each one is like, gets a little bit more easier to read.

So I think if people use that as a resource, it's super helpful. Right now it's mostly I'm, I'm just being a student and I'm learning from my teachers and from people in my workplace that I'm working with. Yeah. I mean, I definitely resonate that. I mean, you, you gotta soak up as much as you can while you're in school.

Cuz you have these great resources at hand and, and uh, making. Relationships with your professors and, you know, having the ability to, to get to know them and, and really get some insight and perspective about their great careers is, is probably one of the most invaluable assets you have at your hands right now.

Um, and so I, I'm a really big fan of the people component of, of learning too. So I hear what you're saying. You're gonna be able to learn probably. 10 times more than you would be able to. Um, by speaking with somebody who's an industry expert, then by trying to go find some obscure blog article about, uh, you know, fire protection or, you know, something specific that you wanna learn about, you know, better to go talk to the person who's made it, their life's passion to know about this thing.

Absolutely. I just, uh, want to thank you for your time, Alexandra. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure and, um, I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. I think, uh, uh, it seems like you, uh, Got it figured out. Thank you so much, GU this is super fun. Thanks for listening, everybody.

Be sure to share the episode with a friend, if you enjoyed it, don't forget that fire protection and life safety is serious business. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are by no means a professional consultation or a codes end standards interpretation. Be sure to contact a licensed professional.

If you are getting involved with fire protection and or life safety. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.