Forensic Focus

Phil Anderson, Senior Lecturer at Northumbria University, returns to the Forensic Focus Podcast to continue unpacking the mental health findings of the Forensic Focus International Well-Being Study. Host Paul Gullon-Scott walks through the clinical picture emerging from a survey of 179 digital forensic investigators, beginning with PTSD symptoms measured by the PCL-5: 47% reported hypervigilance at a moderate level or above, 45% difficulty sleeping, 44% difficulty concentrating, and 43% intrusive thoughts about their casework. Paul and Phil discuss the comorbidity behind those numbers — investigators rarely experience these symptoms in isolation — and how they follow people home, into short tempers, withdrawal from partners, and imagery appearing in dreams. They also examine the most clinically significant finding in the study: 20% of respondents reported active suicidal or self-harm ideation at a clinically meaningful level, roughly four times the estimated general workforce rate.

The conversation then turns to why so few investigators seek help, and what organisations are failing to provide. 49% of respondents receive no clinical or psychological supervision whatsoever, 54% have never taken part in a peer debrief, and 61% did not access support services in the past year — with lack of time, confidentiality concerns, and fear of career consequences cited as the main barriers. Paul and Phil discuss the PHQ-15 physical health data, why resilience is a depletable resource rather than a personal trait, and how coping strategies built around AI-generated CSAM are already breaking down as the material becomes more realistic.

#InvestigatorWellbeing #MentalHealth #PoliceWellbeing #CSAM #AIGeneratedCSAM #DigitalForensics #DFIR

00:00 Welcome and Study Setup

01:18 PTSD Symptoms Breakdown

05:27 Comorbidity and Home Impact

08:16 Case Volume and CSAM Reality

10:16 AI Trauma and Other Content

11:42 Depression and Suicidal Ideation

17:36 Stigma and Support Gaps

24:31 Mandatory Support and Priorities

25:59 Physical Health Effects Begin

26:37 Stress Hits The Body

29:04 No Respite In Casework

31:28 Resilience And Stigma

35:06 AI CSAM Coping Limits

37:20 Supervision Support Gaps

41:42 Peer Debriefs Missing

45:01 Barriers To Seeking Help

49:12 Reach Out And Resources

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/impact-coping-and-support-further-reflections-from-the-dfir-well-being-study/

📝 Show Notes

Forensic Focus International Well-Being Study 2026 Report - https://www.forensicfocus.com/well-being/forensic-focus-international-well-being-study-2026-report/

Forensic Focus Well-Being - https://www.forensicfocus.com/well-being/

If you have been affected by any of the issues raised in this episode, these organisations may be of help:

Samaritans – https://www.samaritans.org

Mind – https://www.mind.org.uk

Oscar Kilo – https://www.oscarkilo.org.uk/

Occupational health unit (OHU) – all police forces have access to an OHU providing a range of support services

Employee Assistance Scheme (EAS) – check with your employer to see what specific resources are available to you

GP – your GP can provide access to various local resources and make referrals to psychological support services

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Ben Dimmock, Police Well-Being Lead at Bedfordshire Police, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about psychological safety, trauma exposure, and the long-term emotional toll of working in policing and digital forensics. Ben shares his own experience of depression 12 years into his service, the stigma that made him hide it, and how opening up eventually led him to build and lead one of the largest full-time police well-being teams in the country. He and host Paul explore why well-being has to be treated as an operational necessity rather than a "pink and fluffy" add-on, and how a culture of stoicism has historically driven burnout, long-term sickness, and unresolved trauma.

The conversation digs into cumulative trauma — the gradual erosion that builds job after job until something small flicks the switch — and what genuinely psychologically safe leadership looks like versus performative box-ticking. Ben explains the day-to-day work of his team, from 80–100 welfare interventions a month and TRiM (Trauma Risk Management) assessments to peer support networks, and two services he believes are unique to Bedfordshire: dedicated welfare support for officers under investigation, and support for their families. Drawing on Paul's own background in online child abuse investigations and his current work as an NHS psychologist, the two discuss supervision, proactive check-ins, and why sometimes people just need to be listened to rather than "fixed."

#PoliceWellbeing #PsychologicalSafety #MentalHealth #TraumaInformedLeadership #Policing #DigitalForensics

00:00 Introducing Ben Dimmock

02:22 Depression and Breaking Stigma

04:46 Speaking Out

06:48 Why Well-Being Is Operational

10:12 Stoicism and Burnout Costs

12:00 Defining Psychological Safety

15:19 Proactive Support Culture

16:44 Building a Well-Being Team

20:57 Cumulative Trauma and Check-Ins

22:09 Supervision and TRiM Tools

26:45 Quick Check Ins

28:02 Cumulative Trauma Explained

30:13 Investigations And Welfare

33:45 Real Versus Performative

36:40 Inside The Well-Being Team

39:34 Supporting Families Too

41:47 Don't Suffer Alone

42:59 Listening Versus Fixing

44:03 Closing Thoughts

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/cumulative-trauma-in-digital-forensics-and-policing-with-ben-dimmock/

📝 Show Notes

Bedfordshire Police – https://www.beds.police.uk/

Oscar Kilo / National Police Well-being Service – https://www.oscarkilo.org.uk/

TRiM (Trauma Risk Management) – https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79e5f4e5274a18ba50f9cf/0392-12attachment2of2.pdf

Ben Dimmock on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-dimmock-6325b4316/

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David Shipley, Instructor at Anglia Ruskin University, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about the human cost of online safeguarding work and his fight to close a gap in UK law. Drawing on 16 years investigating abusive imagery and online child sexual offending, David reflects on what the work actually involves — from the scale of the problem and the relentless build-up of warrants and digital forensic backlogs, to the difficult triage decisions investigators must make when no team can examine every device. He's candid about what "safeguarding" really means in practice, and about the mental toll the role takes on the people who do it.

The conversation then turns to David's final year in policing, when his work on the David Fuller case led him to discover that much of the sexual abuse of corpses he was cataloguing was not actually illegal. David explains how he took that discovery from a Ministry of Justice rejection through a lost bill and a change of government to eventual Royal Assent — a four-year campaign that introduced a new offence and raised the maximum sentence for sexual penetration of a corpse from two to seven years. He closes with frank advice for the next generation of investigators on protecting their own well-being and holding onto an investigative mindset.

#OnlineSafeguarding #InvestigatorWellbeing #LawReform #Policing #MentalHealth #DigitalForensics #DFIR

00:00 Introducing David Shipley

01:20 An Unusual Route Into Safeguarding

03:23 The Scale Of The Problem

06:55 Warrants, Workload And Backlogs

08:40 Triage: You Can't Examine Everything

11:52 What Safeguarding Really Means

14:46 The Hidden Mental Toll

18:21 How Welfare Support Evolved

22:27 Questionnaires And Team Culture

24:58 The Session That Changed My Mind

26:15 The David Fuller Case

29:27 Retiring, Then Returning To Finish The Job

31:51 Continuity And Limiting Exposure

33:50 Discovering The Gap In The Law

36:38 Shock, Duty And Dignity In Death

38:24 Launching The Campaign

41:11 The Ministry Of Justice Says No

44:05 Setbacks, A Lost Bill And A Second Chance

47:00 Royal Assent And Mixed Emotions

50:31 What The New Law Actually Changes

55:32 Advice For The Next Generation

58:08 Closing Reflections

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🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/david-shipley-investigating-the-darkest-corners-of-digital-evidence/

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Marcus Rowe, Business Director – Public Safety & Forensics at Leica Geosystems, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about 3D laser scanning, forensic digital twins, and the role of LiDAR in modern crime and collision investigation. Marcus shares his path from military and civilian policing — including a career in forensic collision investigation with Devon & Cornwall Police — into industry, and explains how Leica Geosystems (part of Hexagon) is empowering investigators with tools that capture entire scenes for analysis, courtroom presentation, and cold case review.

Marcus and Si also discuss the upcoming Forensics Europe Expo at Olympia on 1–2 July, which is set to bring together senior leaders, practitioners and solution providers from across the forensic community. To learn more and secure a free visitor pass, visit: https://www.forensicseuropeexpo.com.

The conversation also turns to Marcus's involvement in the world's largest crash test, featured in the Channel 4 documentary Pile Up. Working blind to the staged scenario, Marcus reconstructed the multi-vehicle collision from post-event scene capture and 3D modelling — at times surfacing detail that the 90 cameras filming the event had missed.

#LiDAR #3DScanning #CrashInvestigation #ForensicDigitalTwins #LeicaGeosystems #DigitalForensics #DFIR

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 Welcome Marcus Rowe

02:44 From Policing to Leica Geosystems

05:35 Leica Conference Highlights

08:43 Forensic Digital Twins Talk

17:55 What to Expect at FEE

22:29 Students and Career Pathways

26:08 World's Largest Crash Test

31:07 LiDAR Explained Simply

34:36 Courtroom Storytelling in 3D

36:02 Real Cases and Proof Standards

38:40 TV Production

41:20 Micron Accuracy Use Cases

42:25 Footprints Without Contact

46:56 From Microns to Kilometers

50:35 VR for Juries and Trust

52:04 Holistic Capture Beats Bias

56:02 FEE Event Invitation

01:00:36 Wrap Up

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/leicas-marcus-rowe-on-investigating-the-worlds-largest-crash-test-plus-what-to-expect-at-fee-2026/

📝 Show Notes

Leica Geosystems – https://leica-geosystems.com

Hexagon – https://hexagon.com

Leica DISTO – https://shop.leica-geosystems.com/disto

Forensics Europe Expo (FEE) – https://www.forensicseuropeexpo.com

Channel 4 "Pile Up" documentary – https://www.channel4.com/programmes/pile-up-worlds-biggest-crash-test

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Phil Anderson, Senior Lecturer at Northumbria University, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about the Forensic Focus International Well-Being Study. Phil and host Paul Gullon-Scott unpack the findings from a survey of 179 digital forensic investigators across the UK, US, Australia, Canada, Germany, South Africa, India, and beyond. The study used validated psychometric instruments to put hard numbers behind what the profession has been hearing anecdotally for years.

Paul and Phil dig into the emerging impact of AI-generated CSAM, where 60% of respondents reported finding it slightly more distressing than real material — and where victim identification is beginning to break down as the realism of generated imagery improves. They also examine the most clinically significant finding in the study: 20% of digital forensic investigators reported active suicidal or self-harm ideation at a clinically significant frequency, roughly four times the general population rate. Set against 61% of respondents lacking access to good-quality support services, alongside hypervigilance, sleep disturbance, retention risk, and physical health symptoms, the picture is one Forensic Focus is taking directly to the UK Home Office.

#DigitalForensics #DFIR #MentalHealth #InvestigatorWellbeing #CSAM #AIGeneratedCSAM #LawEnforcement

00:00 Welcome and Study Intro

00:38 Meet Phil and Motivation

03:23 Survey Scope and Global Reach

07:53 Who Responded and Why It Matters

09:38 Methodology and Validated Measures

11:38 Workload Pressures and AI Factor

15:21 Top Stressors and Management Levers

20:29 Burnout Risk and Retention Crisis

25:56 AI Generated CSAM Findings

31:36 AI Victim Misidentification

32:42 Investigator Stress Burden

33:27 Tech Outpacing Regulation

36:28 PTSD Symptom Findings

38:06 Judgment Under Trauma

40:14 Suicidal Ideation Data

45:16 Support Services Crisis

46:42 Physical Health Impacts

50:03 Report Next Steps

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/burnout-ptsd-suicidal-thoughts-the-dfir-well-being-study-results-are-in/

📝 Show Notes

Northumbria University – https://www.northumbria.ac.uk

Paul Gullon-Scott on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-g-0090605/

Phil Anderson on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/philip-anderson-a555377/

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Stuart Hutchinson, VP of Sales at ADF Solutions, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about on-scene digital forensics and empowering first responders during the golden hour. Stuart shares his journey from 23 years with the Met Police — including a chance encounter in a New Scotland Yard lift that led him into Mac forensics and the vendor space at BlackBag, Cellebrite, Oxygen, and now ADF. With 99.9% of investigations involving a digital element, he argues that mishandling digital evidence at the scene is as damaging as trampling through traditional forensic evidence.

The conversation covers ADF's preview mode and search profile methodology, which gives first responders advanced logical acquisitions in minutes rather than 45+ minutes for a full extraction. Stuart explains how one UK force cut lab submissions by over 40% using an intelligence-led CAID hash triage strategy, and the team discuss locked-down search profiles built at DFU level, managing collateral intrusion, building trust with victims and witnesses, and ADF's screen capture and OCR for Chromebooks, PlayStations, Xboxes, and anything with HDMI out.

#ADFSolutions #OnSceneTriage #MobileForensics #CAID #CSAM #FirstResponders #DigitalForensics #DFIR

00:00 Introducing Stuart Hutchinson and ADF Solutions

02:13 From Met to Mac Forensics

07:26 Why On Scene Triage

08:01 Golden Hour Decisions

13:24 What to Triage First

16:26 ADF Field Kit Overview

18:04 Preview Mode Workflow

22:34 Search Profiles and Staging

26:38 Investigator Over Automation

28:11 Impact and CSAM Hashing

29:34 CAID Hash Triage Strategy

32:45 Efficiency Versus Thoroughness

35:07 Locked Search Profiles

37:20 Training For Limitations

42:46 Device Security Pressures

44:45 From Triage To Full Forensics

47:44 Victim Witness Phone Trust

52:27 Screen Capture And OCR

57:49 Wrap Up And Resources

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/on-scene-digital-forensics-winning-investigations-before-the-lab/

📝 Show Notes

ADF Solutions – https://adfsolutions.com/

ADF Weekly Training Sessions – https://adfsolutions.com/weekly-training-sessions/

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Dr. Fazeelat Duran, Assistant Professor in Psychology at the University of Birmingham, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about the psychological impact of working with distressing material in law enforcement roles. Drawing on her recent longitudinal study — the first of its kind to follow newly recruited secondary investigators and analysts from day one through 18 months in role — Dr. Duran explains how repeated, indirect exposure to traumatic material shapes mental health over time. She walks through the trajectory her team observed at six, 12, and 18 months, the concept of "dosage of exposure," and why early warning signs often go hidden in the first six months when the novelty effect masks the emotional toll to come.

The conversation then turns to coping strategies, the difference between adaptive and maladaptive responses (including the trap of thought suppression), and the idea of a psychological contract between staff and the organisation — and what happens when that contract is breached through unmanageable workloads, limited staffing, and a lack of allocated time for well-being resources. Dr. Duran and host Paul also discuss what organisations should be doing differently, why a one-size-fits-all approach to support fails this group, and the next phase of Dr. Duran's work, including brain imaging findings and a new study on neurodivergence in this workforce.

#SecondaryTraumaticStress #MentalHealth #LawEnforcement #Wellbeing #PsychologicalContract #DigitalForensics #DFIR

00:00 Introducing Dr Fazeelat Duran

02:09 Secondary Trauma Explained

03:42 Research Gap and Longitudinal Study Design

11:17 Early Warning Signs

12:51 Proactive Tailored Support

18:02 Mixed Methods Evidence

19:49 Dosage of Exposure

22:59 Daily Volume and Attrition

25:16 Coping Shifts Over Time

26:45 Maladaptive Coping Patterns

29:05 Isolation and Social Strain

30:34 Workload and AI Pressure

33:08 Psychological Contract Breach

35:23 Building a Caring Culture

37:25 Early Support and Preparation

40:27 Signs, Symptoms and Self Care

42:30 Neurodivergence Research

44:51 Closing Reflections

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/how-distressing-material-shapes-investigator-well-being/

📝 Show Notes

Ongoing Exposure to Distressing Material is Associated with Worsening Mental Health in UK Law Enforcement Staff: a Longitudinal Interview Study – https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11896-026-09809-2

Dr Fazeelat Duran, University of Birmingham – https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/psychology/duran-fazeelat

National Police Chiefs' Council (NPCC) Academic Centres of Excellence – https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/npcc-creating-nine-policing-academic-centres-of-excellence-p-aces

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Si and Desi discuss a range of digital forensics topics, from writing forensic reports that juries can actually understand, to whether AI is coming for "button pusher" DFIR jobs. They explore plain language standards, the classic confusion between forensic "images" and pictures, and Brett Shavers' provocative blog post on AI and job security — leading into a wider discussion about the distinction between technicians and analysts in digital forensics.

Si shares highlights from the Leica Geosystems Conference, including fascinating audio forensics research by Henry Vega on deriving vehicle speeds and weapon calibers from sound recordings, and Swedish police reconstructions of a mass shooting using audio evidence and Unreal Engine walkthroughs. The pair also explore the forensic challenges of AI-generated code, agentic processes on endpoints, and the security risks of consumer AI tools.

#DFIR #DigitalForensics #AI #PrivacyParadox #AudioForensics

00:00 Welcome

00:34 Writing Clear Forensic Reports

01:20 Visual Timelines and Storytelling

06:52 Jargon Pitfalls and Glossaries

10:50 Old Media and Blu-Ray News

12:16 UPS Backups and Failing NAS

16:58 AI Will Replace Button Pushers

18:58 Technician vs Analyst Debate

25:54 Backlogs, Privacy and Evidence

34:39 Privacy Paradox and Distrust

42:45 AI Writes Podcast Intro

43:52 Copyright Lawsuit Talk

45:24 Claude vs ChatGPT Coding

48:48 Forensic Traces of AI

50:16 Agentic IR Attribution

53:43 Consumer Agents Security Risks

59:13 Leica Conference Highlights

01:01:09 Audio Forensics Breakthroughs

01:06:44 Image Forgery History

01:12:58 Chunnel Travel

01:17:36 Wrap-Up

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/dfir-in-2026-ai-button-pusher-forensics-writing-courtroom-reports-audio-breakthroughs-and-the-leica-geosystems-conference/

Show Notes

'If you suck at your DFIR job, AI is going to take it.' (Brett Shavers) – https://brettshavers.com/brett-s-blog/entry/if-you-suck-at-your-dfir-job-ai-is-going-to-take-it

'Sony shuts down production of recordable CD-R, DVD-R and BD-R discs' (Azernews) – https://www.azernews.az/region/228058.html

Ross Ulbricht (Wikipedia) – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht

'Regulator contacts Meta over workers watching intimate AI glasses videos' (BBC) – https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0q33nvj0qpo

'Why people don't demand data privacy – even as governments and corporations collect more personal information' (The Conversation) – https://theconversation.com/why-people-dont-demand-data-privacy-even-as-governments-and-corporations-collect-more-personal-information-262197

'Evaluating privacy - determining user privacy expectations on the web' (Science Direct) – https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167404821000651

'The privacy paradox: Stay one step ahead of it' (Data Guard) – https://www.dataguard.com/blog/privacy-paradox/

Oxford Guide to Plain English (Amazon) – https://amzn.eu/d/09dj8Gr8

Placing the Suspect Behind the Keyboard: Using Digital Forensics and Investigative Techniques to Identify Cybercrime Suspects (Amazon) – https://amzn.eu/d/08fpfTny

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Dr Sarah-Jane Lennie, Associate Professor at the Centre of Excellence for Equity in Uniformed Public Services at Anglia Ruskin University, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about mental health and well-being in policing — and the often-overlooked toll on police families. Drawing on 17 years as a police officer before moving into academia, Dr Lennie shares the moment her own mental health forced a career-defining decision, and how that experience shaped her research into the culture of silencing, stigma, and emotional masking that still pervades policing today. She explains why the context of policing — the trauma, threat, and violence — is not what harms officers most; it's how they're treated by the organisation afterwards.

Dr Lennie describes the isolation partners face, the vicarious trauma they absorb while debriefing their officers, the intergenerational patterns that pull children of police into the same job with the same emotional rules, and the practical support families are asking for. She also discusses the Leapwise National Police Wellbeing Survey, the shift away from "resilience" messaging, the role of the academic working group at Anglia Ruskin, and why properly evaluating interventions is the only way to secure lasting change.

#PoliceWellbeing #PoliceFamilies #MentalHealth #PoliceMentalHealth #VicariousTrauma #DigitalForensics #dfir

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 Introducing Dr Sarah-Jane Lennie

02:40 From Policing to Academia

03:51 Mental Health Breaking Point

06:54 Culture of Silence

11:13 Evidence Into Action

12:44 Biggest Challenges Today

13:59 How Families Are Impacted

18:38 Why Families Are Overlooked

19:29 Support Families Need

22:31 Kids and Hidden Trauma

26:42 Stress at Home

28:07 Emotional Silencing

29:23 Punitive Help-Seeking

32:46 Investigations and Isolation

33:32 Academic Working Group

35:32 Evidence Into Practice

46:41 Research Trust Barriers

51:57 Final Message

👉 Visit Forensic Focus: https://www.forensicfocus.com

🎧 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/policings-well-being-problem-stigma-isolation-and-the-retention-crisis/

📝 Show Notes

Centre of Excellence for Equity in Uniformed Public Services (CEEUPS) – https://www.aru.ac.uk/research/our-research-institutes-and-centres/centre-of-excellence-for-equity-in-uniformed-public-services

Dr Sarah-Jane Lennie (email) – [email protected]

National Police Well-Being Survey 2025 – https://oscarkilo.org.uk/national-police-wellbeing-survey-2025-deep-dive-psychological-safety

Oscar Kilo Thank You Film – https://youtu.be/f-WUJeQG_E4?si=1PgwYD24n58T0M3z

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Rob Fried, digital forensics consultant, author, and assistant professor at Hofstra University, joins the Forensic Focus Podcast to talk about the evolving challenges of forensic practice, AI in investigations, and his latest book. Rob discusses his annual publication cadence — now in its fourth edition — and how each year's content is shaped by real cases, collaborations, and emerging topics in the DFIR community. This year's edition tackles AI policy, data culling strategy, and the documentation practices that keep forensic work defensible in court.

The conversation also covers the growing complexity of remote collections and the soft skills required to manage them effectively, the tension between targeted and full file system approaches, and what happens when those decisions come under scrutiny in litigation. Rob shares his experience building a forensics practice from the ground up within an established e-discovery firm, his work teaching the next generation of examiners at Hofstra, and his upcoming symposium — now in its fifth year — which this year will focus on open source intelligence and corporate investigations.

#mobileforensics #digitalforensics #dfir

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 Introducing Rob Fried

03:48 Why Rob Keeps Writing

07:33 AI Policies and Teaching

09:39 AI Tools and NotebookLM

11:42 AI Spam Call Story

14:33 Forensic Lab and Data Strategy

22:30 Targeted Collection Risks

26:10 Remote Collections and Soft Skills

33:41 Building a Forensics Practice

35:14 Academia and Closing Skill Gaps

39:17 Forensics Network

41:26 Learning and Collaboration

45:42 Planning the Annual Symposium

50:36 Tech Roots and Career Values

54:49 Swag, Challenge Coins and Future Plans

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🎥 Video/Transcript: https://www.forensicfocus.com/podcast/rob-fried-on-new-challenges-in-digital-forensics/

📝 Show Notes

Forensics By Fried – https://forensicsbyfried.com

Rob Fried's Books – https://forensicsbyfried.com/books

AI Spoof Call (Instagram) – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DVOXY5MiGNT/?igsh=N3J0cDJwaXk1bW5o

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