What happens when your sense of worth depends on being better than the people around you? And what changes when you stop asking how you rank and start asking what kind of life is actually worth living? Brian Williams talks with theologian Miroslav Volf about the difference between excellence and superiority, the fragility of a self built on achievement, and the possibility of receiving our lives as gifts rather than projects of endless comparison. Drawing on Life Worth Living and The Cost of Ambition, they consider education, vocation, place, gratitude, contentment, and the communities that help us discern what we are for. Listen for a hopeful account of how we can pursue meaningful work and genuine excellence without making success the measure of our worth.

Along the way, Volf reflects on growing up in Yugoslavia as the son of a Pentecostal minister, discerning his calling as a theologian, the disciplines and delights that sustain his ordinary life, and the writers who have helped him think about contentment, vocation, and hope.

About the Guest
Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology at Yale Divinity School and the Founder and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture.  His many books include Life Worth Living: A Guide to What Matters Most, The Cost of Ambition: How Striving to Be Better than Others Makes Us Worse, and Glimmerings: Letters on Faith between a Poet and a Theologian.

Guest Links

Yale Center for Faith & Culture | https://faith.yale.edu/

Life Worth Living | https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/691260/life-worth-living-by-miroslav-volf-matthew-croasmun-and-ryan-mcannally-linz/

The Cost of Ambition | https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587437311_the-cost-of-ambition?srsltid=AfmBOopzP8KPhrxDR6EZM-VjIwfoeo4nhB36_Y-br3sffcYsk2BOWmQX

Episode References / Resources

Life Worth Living: A Guide to What Matters Most by Miroslav Volf, Matthew Croasmun, and Ryan McAnnally-Linz

The Cost of Ambition: How Striving to Be Better Than Others Makes Us Worse by Miroslav Volf

Education’s End by Anthony T. Kronman

The Sickness Unto Death by Søren Kierkegaard

Works of Love by Søren Kierkegaard

Hannah Coulter by Wendell Berry

Exclusion and Embrace by Miroslav Volf

Dante Alighieri, Paradiso, 

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What if mathematics is not merely a tool for solving problems, but a way of encountering reality? In this episode of Forged, Brian Williams talks with mathematician and educator Jake Tawney about the beauty of number and shape, why wonder belongs at the heart of education, and what we risk losing when technology begins doing our thinking for us. From Euclid and fractals to calculators and artificial intelligence, Jake makes the case that education should begin with real things worth knowing and loving. Their conversation ultimately turns toward a larger question: What habits, practices, and encounters help us become more fully human?

Jake and Brian explore why mathematics has so often been reduced to computation, how teachers can invite students into genuine wonder, and why AI raises deeper questions than efficiency alone. Jake also reflects on the practices that have shaped his own life as a husband and father, including prayer, cooking, wine, reading aloud, and the conviction that our first calling is to give ourselves for the good of others.

Books & Resources Mentioned
Another Sort of Mathematics: Selected Proofs Necessary to Acquire a True Education in Mathematics by Jake Tawney
Euclid’s Elements
A Mathematician’s Lament by Paul Lockhart
The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C. S. Lewis
Gaudium et Spes (Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World), especially paragraphs 22 and 24

About the Guest
Jacob Tawney (Jake) has been enamored by mathematics for as long as he can remember, from kindergarten to calculus. But he truly fell in love with it during his sophomore year at Denison University during a course on mathematical proofs. After completing an undergraduate degree in mathematics and computer science from Denison, he continued his studies at The Ohio State University. There he earned a master’s degree in mathematics, submitting a thesis on the mathematics of juggling. During his time in Ohio, Tawney taught at Upper Arlington High School and the Pontifical College Josephinum, including courses in Euclid and the philosophy of mathematics. In 2014 he relocated his family to Phoenix, Arizona, to join Great Hearts Academies, where he most recently served as the chief academic officer. In 2026, Jake joined the Institute for Catholic Liberal Education where he currently serves as the Director of Curriculum and Academic Resources.

Jake is the author of Another Sort of Mathematics, available through Encounter Books, as well as a primer on teaching Euclid available through Cana Academy. Jake is the proud husband of Christina and the proud father of eight children, all of whom have something unique in their souls that can only be satisfied by wondering about mathematics.

Another Sort of Mathematics - Encounter Books | https://www.encounterbooks.com/books/another-sort-mathematics/

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How do fairy stories prepare children for a world of suffering, courage, beauty, and surprise? And what happens when adults lose the imagination to see rain, trees, music, and ordinary acts of making as anything more than useful resources? Dr. Junius Johnson joins Brian Williams to explore how fantasy gives us categories for facing real danger, recognizing evil, practicing courage, and remaining open to wonder. Drawing from Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, George MacDonald, The Neverending Story, and his own life as a musician and father, Junius argues that good stories do more than entertain us. They train our affections and help us become the kind of people who can enter the world with wisdom, desire, and hope.

Their conversation moves from dragons and unicorns to grief, beauty, friendship, music, and the work of making. Along the way, Junius offers a practical invitation: read stories that enlarge your moral imagination, make something beautiful even when no one is watching, and resist the habit of calling the world “merely” ordinary.

About the Guest
Junius Johnson is a writer, teacher, speaker, independent scholar, and musician. His work focuses on beauty, imagination, and wonder in the Christian and Classical intellectual traditions. He is the executive director of Junius Johnson Academics and holds a BA from Oral Roberts University (English Lit), an MAR from Yale Divinity School (Historical Theology), and an MA, two MPhils, and a PhD (Philosophical Theology) from Yale University. He is the author of 5 books and is a contributing writer for the Humanitas textbooks with Classical Academic Press. He is co-host of The Classical Mind, a podcast discussing the great books of the Western tradition.

Guest Links
Junius Johnson Academics | https://academics.juniusjohnson.com/
Junius Johnson Publications | https://www.juniusjohnson.com/
The Classical Mind Podcast | https://www.theclassicalmind.com/

On Teaching Fairy Stories | https://www.amazon.com/dp/1600514928/

Father of Lights | https://www.amazon.com/Father-Lights-Theology-Life-World/dp/1540964892/
Junius Johnson on Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/junius_johnson/
Junius Johnson on X | https://x.com/DrJuniusJohnson
Junius Johnson Academics on Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/JuniusJohnsonAcademics
Junius Johnson Academics on YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@juniusjohnsonacademics

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How can we prepare for death without becoming consumed by it? And what might the lost art of dying teach us about living with greater wisdom, agency, and hope? Dr. Lydia Dugdale joins Brian Williams to recover an older vision of mortality, one in which preparing for death meant tending to our relationships, forming our character, asking ultimate questions, and learning when medical technology helps or harms. Their conversation offers a practical invitation: rather than leaving our final decisions to fear, haste, or unfamiliar institutions, we can begin now to live the kind of life that makes dying well possible.

Lydia and Brian discuss hope as a virtue that can be practiced rather than a feeling we must wait to receive. Lydia identifies five practices that help us resist despair: lament, endurance, imagination, confidence formed through gratitude, and the sustaining love of community.

About the Guest
Lydia Dugdale, MD, MAR (ethics), is the Dorothy L. and Daniel H. Silberberg Professor of Medicine at the Columbia University Medical Center and Director of the Center for Clinical Medical Ethics. She also serves as Co-Director of Clinical Ethics at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Irving Medical Center.
A practicing internist, Dr Dugdale moved to Columbia in 2019 from Yale University, where she previously served as Associate Director of the Program for Biomedical Ethics and founding Co-Director of the Yale Program for Medicine, Spirituality, and Religion. Her scholarship focuses on end-of-life issues, the role of aesthetics in ethics, moral injury, and the doctor-patient relationship. She edited Dying in the Twenty-First Century (MIT Press, 2015) and is author of The Lost Art of Dying (HarperOne, 2020), a popular press book on the preparation for death. Dr Dugdale attended medical school at the University of Chicago, completed residency training at Yale-New Haven Hospital, and holds a MAR in ethics from Yale Divinity School.

Guest Links
The Lost Art of Dying | https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Art-Dying-Reviving-Forgotten/dp/0062932640/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=dJyQ3&content-id=amzn1.sym.352fa4e9-2aa8-47c3-b5ac-8a90ddbece20%3Aamzn1.symc.40e6a10e-cbc4-4fa5-81e3-4435ff64d03b&pf_rd_p=352fa4e9-2aa8-47c3-b5ac-8a90ddbece20&pf_rd_r=ZS5VF87D3067V5WKN4X0&pd_rd_wg=CgWsb&pd_rd_r=48553bce-b241-40ab-8dd5-93fc63e7fdb3&pd_rd_i=0062932640

Dying in the Twenty-First Century | https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262534598/dying-in-the-twenty-first-century/

Columbia Center for Clinical Medical Ethics on X | https://x.com/columbia_ccme

Columbia Center for Clinical Medical Ethics on Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/ColumbiaCenterforClinicalMedicalEthics

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How does a father help his son become a good man? In this episode of Forged, Brian Williams speaks with Marine veteran, novelist, and journalist Elliot Ackerman about the small habits and embodied patterns that shape a man’s life and form the next generation: wearing a suit with intention, writing a thank-you note, keeping a friend, caring for meaningful objects, reading deeply, and learning to live with purpose. Drawing from Ackerman’s series “A Man Should Know,” the conversation explores why fathers, coaches, mentors, and male friendships matter in a culture where many young men are left to make it up as they go. For fathers seeking to lead their homes with wisdom, steadiness, and hope, this conversation offers a clear reminder: formation often begins in the little things.

Ackerman also reflects on the Marine Corps, the influence of his own father, the meaning carried by inherited objects, the discipline of writing, and the quiet work of raising children with both acceptance and standards. Together, Brian and Elliot consider how fathers pass on more than advice. They pass on habits, stories, loves, friendships, and a way of seeing the world.

About the Guest
Elliot Ackerman is the author of the novels Sheepdogs, Halcyon, 2034 (coauthor), Red Dress in Black and White, Waiting for Eden, Dark at the Crossing, and Green on Blue, as well as the memoirs The Fifth Act: America’s End in Afghanistan and Places and Names: On War, Revolution, and Returning. His books have been nominated for the National Book Award, the Andrew Carnegie Medal in both fiction and nonfiction, and the Dayton Literary Peace Prize. He is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a Marine veteran who served five tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, where he received the Silver Star, the Bronze Star for Valor, and the Purple Heart. He divides his time between New York City and Washington, DC.

Elliot Ackerman at Penguin Random House | https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/2133889/elliot-ackerman/

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What kind of person is formed by songs, stories, gardens, books, and the patient work of making? This episode is a living picture of classical education beyond the classroom. In this conversation, Brian Williams speaks with singer-songwriter, author, and Rabbit Room founder Andrew Peterson about how truth, goodness, and beauty are carried through embodied practices: reading aloud, making music, gathering around tables, learning from creation, and practicing a craft over time. Andrew invites parents, educators, and ordinary makers to recover the courage to begin badly, the discipline to keep going, and the joy of telling the truth as beautifully as we can.

Together, Brian and Andrew explore the Rabbit Room as a “wayside inn” for artists and readers, the formative power of handmade work, the goodness of amateur creativity rooted in love, and the danger of bypassing craft. This conversation offers a hopeful vision for homes, schools, and communities where beauty is not an extra, but part of how children and adults become fully human.

About the Guest
Andrew Peterson is a singer-songwriter, author, and founder of the Rabbit Room. Andrew has released more than ten records over the past twenty years, earning him a reputation for songs that connect with his listeners in ways equally powerful, poetic, and intimate. As an author, Andrew’s books include the four volumes of the award-winning Wing feather Saga, which have sold more than a million copies, along with his creative memoirs, Adorning the Dark, and The God of the Garden. He’s also an executive producer of the Wing feather Saga Animated Series, which is currently in production on its third season with Angel Studios. In 2008 Andrew founded the Rabbit Room, a nonprofit organization based in Nashville, Tennessee that nourishes Christ-centered communities by cultivating and curating stories, art, and music.

Guest Links
Andrew Peterson | https://www.andrew-peterson.com/
The Rabbit Room | https://www.rabbitroom.com/
The Wingfeather Saga | https://www.wingfeathersaga.com/
Adorning the Dark | https://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/product/adorning-the-dark-2/adorning-the-dark-2/
The God of the Garden | https://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/product/the-god-of-the-garden-2/

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What happens when young adults have been taught how to achieve, but not how to work, love, and rest like whole persons? In this episode of Forged, Dr. Brian Williams speaks with Dr. Anna Bonta Moreland about The Young Adult Playbook and the ordinary habits that help men and women build lives of purpose. Their conversation moves from Argentine family dinners and a different relationship to time, to the loneliness and risk-aversion many young adults feel around dating, vocation, and leisure. Along the way, Dr. Moreland offers a hopeful vision for recovering agency through embodied friendship, honest conversation, good work, Sabbath-shaped leisure, prayer, and practical courage.

This is a conversation for young adults, parents, teachers, and anyone who senses that achievement alone cannot form a life. Dr. Moreland helps name the fear many students carry into adulthood, then points toward a better way: not escape from responsibility, but a deeper education in how to live.

About the Guest
Dr. Anna Bonta Moreland is the Anne Quinn Welsh Endowed Chair and Director of the University Honors Program at Villanova University. A full professor in the Department of Humanities, her academic expertise and research include medieval theology, interfaith dialogue, and comparative theology. She is the author of Known by Nature: Thomas Aquinas on Natural Knowledge of God (Crossroad/Herder, 2010), Muhammad Reconsidered: A Christian Perspective on Islamic Prophecy (University of Notre Dame Press, 2020), and The Young Adult Playbook: Living Like it Matters (CUA Press, 2024). She has received grants from the John Templeton Foundation, the Lilly Foundation, and the National Endowment for the Humanities.

She received her B.A. in Philosophy at the University of Maryland, College Park, and her M.A. and Ph.D. in Systematic Theology from Boston College under the direction of Michael J. Buckley, S.J.

Guest Links
Anna Moreland | https://dspt.edu/anna-moreland
The Young Adult Playbook: Living Like It Matters | https://www.amazon.com/Young-Adult-Playbook-Living-Matters/dp/0813239206

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What does it take to form a life with roots, discipline, and courage in an age of distraction and drift? In this episode of Forged, Brian Williams talks with R. R. Reno about the ordinary practices that shape the soul: family dinners, church, books, marriage, friendship, cooking, architecture, and the demanding craft of rock climbing. Reno reflects on growing up in Baltimore, learning endurance in Yosemite, finding stability in marriage and worship, and pursuing excellence as a teacher, writer, and Christian. Along the way, he considers why beauty trains our affections, why embodied disciplines matter, and what it means to “do battle without hatred.”

The conversation moves from childhood rhythms and the gift of rootedness to the spiritual trial of physical risk, the public nature of architecture, and the vocation of First Things as a guide for readers seeking clarity in a fractured cultural moment.

About the Guest
R. R. Reno has served as Editor of First Things since 2011. He received his PhD in
theology from Yale University, and taught theology and ethics at Creighton
University in Omaha, Nebraska for twenty years. He has published in many
academic journals, magazines, and newspapers. His most recent books include The
End of Interpretation, Return of the Strong Gods, and Resurrecting the Idea of a
Christian Society.

Guest Links
First Things | https://www.firstthings.com

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What would it mean to practice festival at home, in school, and in church? In this episode of Forged, Brian Williams speaks with Father Nathan Carr about the posture and practice of festival as a way of living with joy, gratitude, and holy attention in the midst of ordinary time. Drawing from his work as priest, headmaster, husband, father, and author of Festive School, Carr reflects on Christian calendars, prayer books, school feasts, household rituals, and the slow formation of children who learn not merely to observe the good, but to receive and name it. This conversation is an invitation to recover joy as discipline, delight as formation, and celebration as a serious part of Christian life.

Together, Brian and Father Carr consider how homes, schools, and churches can resist anxiety, urgency, cynicism, and suspicion by learning to inhabit time differently. From Benedictine hours and red-letter feast days to hidden Wise Men during Advent and children serving in the liturgy, this episode explores the small, concrete practices that teach us to see the world as gift.

About the Guest
Father Nathan Carr serves as Vicar and Priest-in-Charge of St. John’s Episcopal Oklahoma City, Missioner for Strategic Development for the Diocese and Bishop, and Headmaster of The Academy—an 1100-student Christian School of Classics with 3 campuses throughout the OK  metro. He and his wife Sarah co-own Commonplace Books OKC, chase six children around day and night (one of whom is now married!), and are now willing to take naps in the middle of the day. Nathan is author of Festive School, watches far too many car repair shows in his spare time, and serves as Chairman of the Ralston College Board of Governors.

Guest Links
The Academy | https://theacademyok.org
Commonplace Books OKC | https://commonplacebooksokc.com/
Festive School | https://classicalacademicpress.com/products/festive-school?_pos=1&_sid=665198961&_ss=r
Student Prayer Book | https://classicalacademicpress.com/products/student-prayer-book?_pos=1&_sid=674d00509&_ss=r

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What does beauty have to do with the spaces where we learn, teach, worship, and gather? In this shared bonus episode of Composed and Forged, Christine Perrin speaks with Brian Williams about Templeton Hall, the home of the Templeton Honors College, and the deep work of making a place that feels whole, hospitable, and human. Their conversation moves from architecture and furniture to poetry, asking how beauty forms us before we can fully explain what it has done. This is an episode about attention, creation, community, and the grace of places that help us breathe more deeply and live more faithfully.

Brian reflects on the making of Templeton Hall at Eastern University as an act of stewardship, one that honors the old while creating room for students and faculty to dwell together in the pursuit of the true, the good, the beautiful. Christine and Brian consider why beauty is not a luxury, why material places matter to Christian formation, and how the experience of a beautiful space can awaken desire for God. The episode closes fittingly with Hopkins’s “Pied Beauty,” a poem of praise for the dappled, particular, and creaturely world.

References and Links
Templeton Honors College | https://templeton.eastern.edu/
Templeton Hall | https://templeton.eastern.edu/life-community/templeton-hall
Christopher Alexander, The Timeless Way of Building | https://www.amazon.com/Timeless-Way-Building-Christopher-Alexander/dp/0195024028
Gregory Wolfe, Beauty Will Save the World | https://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Will-Save-World-Ideological/dp/1610171004
Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Idiot | https://www.amazon.com/Idiot-Penguin-Classics-Fyodor-Dostoyevsky/dp/014044792X
C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy | https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Joy-Shape-Early-Life/dp/0062565435
Charles Williams, The Descent of the Dove | https://angelicopress.com/products/the-descent-of-the-dove?srsltid=AfmBOop0_4ZZscz8U6o_ldEPhSYpkPOBsrJotPNumtbWjmzkJWtypzrJ
Gerard Manley Hopkins, “God’s Grandeur” | https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44395/gods-grandeur
Gerard Manley Hopkins, “Pied Beauty” | https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44399/pied-beauty

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