Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 00:22 - What percentage of people would vote for Joe Biden if the question put to voters were, shall Joe Biden continue to be president? Totally different question than who do you want to be the president, Joe Biden or Donald Trump?

Narrator | 00:35 - Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:42 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Chesa Boudin. He is the executive director of the Criminal Law and Justice Center at the University of California Berkeley Law School. He's also the former district attorney of San Francisco. Chesa, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 01:57 - Great to be here with you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:59 - Now if we can talk about your successor, Brooke Jenkins. In 2022 convictions were up 37% under her administration. Then 2023 convictions were up 43%. This was something that they were touting putting people in jail to fight crime, but we know that that is not the solution. How do we get people to recognize that it's better to invest in solutions that are proven to work, Chesa?

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:26 - Yeah, I mean, here's the problem with, with those statistics in a vacuum. The problem with those statistics is that we were not seeking to maximize conviction rates when I was in office. We were seeking to maximize accountability. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:37 - When I put those stats out there, that can be twisted either way. She might tout that and I might be horrified by that, but…

CB | 02:44 - Yeah, but let me tell you what's problematic. If we were saying what percentage of cases that go to trial result in a conviction, that might be marginally useful to evaluate whether or not a district attorney is doing a good job choosing trial cases and presenting evidence to juries. But if you just look at overall conviction rates, what's missing that's critically important is cases that are dismissed because of successful completion of diversion or treatment programs. 

AW | 03:13 - And resources are limited. 

CB | 03:15 - Exactly. I got a phone call last night, literally last night out of the blue from a prosecutor who used to work for me, who's still in the office. And this prosecutor said to me, you know, I wasn't a true believer when you were the DA.