Fortune's Path Podcast

What does it actually take to break into show business? Chris Barkley has produced three feature films, reads scripts for The Black List, and votes on film of the year for the Producers Guild — which means he sits on the side of the table where the answer is usually no. Chris and host Tom Noser dig into why that no is almost never honest, what separates the one or two great scripts Chris has read in fifteen years from the other five hundred, and why age matters less for actors than the people telling you it's too late. Plus: the police-uniform test for whether a performance is real, why the industry is hungrier for content than it has ever been, and the uncomfortable truth that the clip you saw go viral was paid for.

In this episode, Chris and Tom discuss:

• The Hollywood no — Why nobody tells an artist their work is bad, how that kindness costs people years, and the difference between a professional note and unprofessional honesty
• How spec scripts actually sell — Work for hire and what a writer gives up, The Black List and Franklin Leonard's reclaiming of a poisoned word, and Scott Myers' free catalogue of every spec deal since 1991
• Good versus great — Why Chris has read one or two great scripts in fifteen years out of roughly five hundred, why most fall apart in the first twenty pages, and why typos get read as character
• Structure versus character — What has to happen by page two, page ten, and the end of Act One, and whether Syd Field's architecture still holds up
• Write what you know — but know something — The advice the late Nashville songwriter Wayne Perry gave Chris at twenty-one, and what it means for anyone stuck at their desk
• What makes a performance land — Code-switching in Huckleberry Finn and James, the friend Chris trusts to be exactly who he is, and the police-uniform test for authenticity
• Abundance, not scarcity — Why creative envy misreads the market, what vertical micro-dramas and casting at internet scale have changed, and what fewer buyers actually threatens
• Making it versus selling it — Why virality is purchased, how clip farms manufacture the appearance of consensus, and why you shouldn't quit until you've exhausted the marketing half of the job

Greg Ceccarelli is Chief Product Officer at Spec Story, an AI-first startup building tools to make AI coding easier and safer. Before Spec Story, Greg held product leadership roles at Pluralsight (CPO), GitHub, Dropbox, and Google, and earlier spent years as a consultant at Alixpartners and IBM.

In this conversation, Greg and Tom cover:

Oliver Dauert is the founder of Wildya, a consultancy helping nature NGOs and nature businesses grow their impact by getting better at marketing, sales, and personal branding. A Berlin native who wanted to be an elephant seal at age five, Oliver studied business specifically to understand how to change the systems driving the biodiversity crisis. After two years of pivots — from eco-anxiety coaching to corporate consulting — Wildya has found its focus helping the people already doing the work get more attention, more customers, and more resources.

In this episode, Oliver and Tom discuss:

• The Jenga tower explanation of why biodiversity loss threatens everything we've built as a civilization
• Why Oliver chose business over marine biology — and whether he regrets it
• How he built a community of tens of thousands on LinkedIn by being a messenger rather than a marketer
• The business model behind Wildya, from free LinkedIn content to paid bootcamps and one-on-one consulting
• Why the CSRD rollback and Trump's reelection killed his corporate pivot — and why the timing was just wrong
• What "rewilding your backyard" actually looks like, and the three steps any individual or business can take today
• Why biodiversity is a long-term business investment, not a cost — and how compounding returns apply to nature just as they do to capital
• The IUCN tool that shows you exactly what's threatening species within 50 kilometers of your home
• The butterfly that nested on his Berlin balcony and what it taught him about positive feedback loops
• Why personal branding isn't self-promotion — and why the messenger matters less than the message

Resources mentioned:

• 1% for the Planet directory: www.onepercentfortheplanet.org
• IUCN Red List species threat tool: www.iucnredlist.org
• Wildya community: wildya.com

AI is fundamentally changing how SaaS companies should think about pricing. When your software makes teams 70% more efficient, charging per seat means you're literally shrinking your own market. In this conversation, product management veteran Lee Bridges explains why seat-based pricing is a burning platform and what comes next.

Lee, returning to the podcast after five years, recently led a pricing transformation project that forced him to confront an uncomfortable truth: AI-driven efficiency gains directly reduce the number of seats customers need. His solution? Outcome-based pricing that aligns incentives between vendors and customers while future-proofing against AI disruption.

Lee Bridges - Cheif Product Officer at Inn-Flow, father, audio engineer, and vibe coder who recently completed a major pricing transformation project for a B2B SaaS company in the field service space.

The Seat-Based Pricing Problem

• How AI efficiency reduces Total Addressable Market (TAM)
• The misalignment of incentives between vendors and customers
• Internal team conflicts created by per-seat models
• Why "reducing a team from 10 to 3" destroys 70% of your revenue potential

Outcome-Based Pricing Explained

• The difference between usage-based and outcome-based pricing
• How to identify and price meaningful outcomes
• The psychology of "you make money when your customer makes money"
• Avoiding the "nickel and diming" feeling of usage-based models

Real-World Implementation

• Case study: Field service sales teams (20 minutes to 90 seconds per quote)
• Tiered prepayment models with outcome "credits"
• Combining platform fees with outcome pricing
• When outcome-based pricing works (and when it doesn't)

The Future of SaaS and AI

• Why B2B SaaS isn't going anywhere despite AI hype
• The problem with expecting everyone to be a product manager
• Consistency, training, and the limits of LLM-generated experiences
• Vibe coding and no-code tools in practice

"If you create efficiencies that make a process so efficient that some number of people will no longer be necessary... you reduce the number of potential seats. You reduce the Tam."

"If I give you a dollar and you're going to give me $10 back, I'd be insane to not do that as many times as I can."

"You're really expecting everyone on Earth to be a product manager. That's just not going to happen."

"The most people don't have a high level of agency. They don't know what they want, when they want it, and they don't know how to describe it."

1. Evaluate your pricing model now - If you're charging per seat and building AI features, you're creating a strategic vulnerability
2. Start with new products - Test outcome-based pricing with new offerings rather than risking existing revenue
3. Identify measurable outcomes tied to customer revenue - What metrics does your sales team already use when discussing ROI?
4. Consider hybrid models - Platform fees plus outcome pricing can balance predictability with value alignment
5. The complexity trade-off - Outcome-based pricing must remain simple enough to avoid litigation-inducing confusion

• [00:01:00] Kerry's journey from personal adversity to leadership expertise
• [00:04:00] The book's target audience: new managers and struggling leaders
• [00:08:00] Growing up with six brothers and two sisters across blended families
• [00:09:00] The pivotal moment: losing her mother at 16 and moving in with her father
• [00:12:00] Good bosses vs. bad bosses: more than just opposites
• [00:15:00] Leading with gratitude and the power of compartmentalization
• [00:18:00] Navigating difficult conversations and layoffs with empathy
• [00:21:00] Leading different personality types: sales, product, and marketing teams
• [00:24:00] The myth of self-management in tech and the need for guidance
• [00:28:00] Working with entrepreneurs and managing multiple priorities
• [00:34:00] Learning "how men think" and navigating male-dominated environments
• [00:42:00] Creating inclusive cultures where emotions are acceptable
• [00:47:00] The power dynamics of leadership and asking for feedback
• [00:49:00] Kerry's speaking goals and helping organizations build better cultures

Key Takeaways:

• Leadership is more like parenting than marriage - guiding growth without coddling
• Every employee deserves empathy, clear vision, and understanding of their role
• The importance of preparation for difficult conversations, especially layoffs
• Creating psychological safety where team members can express emotions
• Leaders must recognize their power and influence over employees' lives

Ashley Kent - Founder & CEO of Clear Star Creative, a boutique marketing growth agency specializing in venture-backed health tech companies

• Managing a 15-employee company while raising two young children (ages 4 and 6)
• Finding joy in simple pleasures: working out, good food, and family time
• The reality of being a working mom in a small community where she's often in the minority

• Boutique marketing/growth agency focused on venture-backed health tech startups
• Two main service phases:
  • "Crawl Phase": Helping companies validate their target audience and go-to-market strategy
  • "Walk Phase": Building scalable marketing and sales systems beyond founder-led sales

• Shift from investing in "dreams and ideas" (2015-2020) to requiring tangible results
• VCs now demand sustainable, repeatable business models rather than relying on individual founders
• Importance of building "moats" and differentiation in crowded markets

• Three ways CEOs typically view marketing:
  1. Core revenue driver
  2. Sales enablement ("make things look pretty")
  3. Brand awareness generator
• Focus on impacting business outcomes, not just creating content
• Taking a whole customer lifecycle approach from acquisition to renewal

• Using AI as an efficiency tool, not a replacement for human relationships
• Current tech stack includes ChatGPT for ideation and image generation, AI note-taking tools
• Emphasis on maintaining human oversight and the relationship-driven nature of business

• Common challenge for companies in the $10-50M range
• Difference between lifestyle businesses and venture-scalable companies
• Building repeatable systems that don't depend on the founder's personal relationships

• Healthcare traditionally being sales-led but slowly adopting PLG approaches
• The complexity of implementing PLG - requires buttoned-up systems and user experience
• Warning about pulling product resources away from core development

Ashley candidly shared experiencing her "hardest six months ever":

• Lost entire core team within two weeks
• Lost major clients within two months
• Had to rebuild while maintaining operations and caring for family
• Learning to balance investment in clients' success with her own company's needs

• Focus on behavioral interviews and work ethic assessment
• 90-day probationary period to ensure good fit
• Emphasis on preventing burnout in high-paced startup/agency environment
• Importance of setting clear expectations and boundaries

• Exposing her daughter to the business world and strong working women
• Balancing being present for family while running a demanding business
• Teaching children about the value of hard work and financial independence

"I'm in the people business. We are in the services business where we are building relationships."

"If we turned [marketing] off tomorrow, would it really impact our business? Probably not... We have to make sure that we are impacting the business in every single thing we're doing."

"The strategic person climbs to the top of the ladder, looks over the trees and says, 'guys, we're in the wrong forest.'"

"Don't let the facade fool you. It is hard as hell to do this and it will push you in every single capacity."

• Clay (AI-enabled sales outreach tool)
• Apollo (sales outreach platform)
• ChatGPT (AI for ideation and content)
• Clear Star Creative website

1. Focus over busy work: Strategic thinking means identifying the one thing that will truly move the needle
2. Relationships drive business: Especially in B2B services, human connections remain irreplaceable
3. Transparency builds trust: Being honest about capabilities and limitations creates stronger client relationships
4. Systems enable scale: Moving beyond founder-dependent operations requires intentional system building
5. Resilience through adversity: Even successful entrepreneurs face major setbacks - persistence and support systems are crucial

Fortune's Path podcast helps service and technology businesses address root causes that prevent rapid growth. Music and editing by Ted Noser.

In this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast, Tom Noser interviews Anderson Williams, Principal for Talent Development at Shore Capital Partners, a private equity firm that partners with entrepreneurs and industry executives to drive growth in micro-cap businesses. Anderson brings a unique perspective from his diverse background as a classroom teacher, entrepreneur, sculptor, painter, writer, and corporate advisor.

• Anderson's role leading talent and leadership development initiatives at Shore Capital Partners
• How Shore Capital works with micro-cap businesses (typically small, family-run businesses) to help them scale
• The Shore Leadership Academy's approach to developing leaders at different stages
• How Anderson's background in fine arts influences his approach to business and education
• The importance of trust and communication as foundations for leadership
• The connection between art, education, and business leadership
• How Shore Capital evaluates potential business partnerships
• The growth strategy of consolidating small businesses to create mid-market companies

1. Shore Capital Partners invests in micro-cap businesses with the goal of helping them scale, focusing on companies where the founders want to remain involved and grow with a strategic partner.
2. The Shore Leadership Academy focuses on developing leadership at all levels, from first-time managers to executives, with a curriculum that progresses from self-development to team leadership to strategic business thinking.
3. Anderson attributes much of his approach to business and leadership to his background in fine arts, particularly how it taught him to see differently, accept feedback, and continually iterate.
4. Trust is described as foundational to leadership, with three distinct dimensions: personal trust, organizational trust, and strategic trust.
5. The best teachers (and leaders) combine authentic passion for their subject with the ability to make content relevant to learners' real-world experiences.
6. Anderson describes education as being about delivery, while learning is about what people do with knowledge - applying it in new and interesting ways.
7. Shore Capital's investment strategy looks for "barbell industries" where there are many small players and a few large ones, creating opportunity to build in the middle through strategic acquisition.
8. Business success ultimately comes from human relationships: "We're humans working together with other humans and human-created systems to provide products and services to solve problems for other humans. And we call it a business."

Anderson Williams serves as Principal for Talent Development at Shore Capital Partners, leading their talent and leadership development initiatives. With a diverse background as a classroom teacher, entrepreneur, sculptor, painter, writer, and corporate advisor, Anderson brings a unique perspective to leadership development. He holds a Master's in Fine Arts from Cranbrook Academy of Art and has been with Shore since 2021.

[00:00:00] - Introduction

• Tom: Setting up today's discussion points: establishing new standards in software, using tech for effective learning, and the possible conflict between educational system administrators and students.
• Guest: David Ells, Managing Director of Open LMS, an open-source learning management system provider.
• Overview of David's background in online learning with over 15 years of experience, including work with the Department of Defense on the Experience API (XAPI).

[00:01:09] - Early Career and Entry into Learning Tech

• David: Shares his accidental entry into the learning tech field after earning a master's degree from MTSU.
• Initial job at Rustici Software leading to a career in educational technology.
• Discusses the meaningful impact of developing educational tools and the transformative power of education.

[00:03:53] - Importance of Experiential Learning in Hiring

• Tom: Probes the significance of certifications versus experience in hiring.
• David: Emphasizes experience and practical application of knowledge as primary hiring factors over certifications.

[00:05:35] - Introduction to XAPI

• Tom: Attempts to describe XAPI.
• David: Explains XAPI's basics—data format and communication protocol for learning events, allowing detailed tracking of learning activities across various platforms and contexts.

[00:07:37] - XAPI's Vision and Development

• Tom: Shares initial skepticism about XAPI but appreciates its potential.
• David: Discusses the broader vision of XAPI, including data mobility and creating verifiable credentials for lifelong learning records.
• Insights on corporate and academic applications and interoperability with different forms of learning content.

[00:10:52] - Industry Adoption and Impact of Standards

• David: Describes efforts to establish XAPI, parallels with existing industry standards, and the critical role of adoption.
• Historical context of SCORM and the unique challenges and opportunities it presented.

[00:15:00] - Rustici Software’s Contribution to XAPI

• Tom: Questions about Rustici’s role in developing SCORM and transitioning to XAPI.
• David: Details Rustici’s research and industry contributions leading to XAPI’s development and its collaborative approach.

[00:21:00] - Launching and Promoting XAPI

• David: Discusses the practical and marketing challenges in launching a new standard and gaining adoption.
• Realizations and reflections on what might have been done differently for better adoption rates.

[00:28:10] - XAPI’s Broader Applications and Limitations

• Tom: Explores XAPI’s potential beyond learning contexts.
• David: Outlines XAPI’s flexibility, acknowledging both its strengths and weaknesses, and practical applications in data-driven contexts.

[00:38:08] - Managing Data with Watershed

• Tom: Discusses the potential overwhelming amount of data XAPI could collect.
• David: Describes the importance of filtering data to extract meaningful insights and the role of tools like Watershed in this process.

[00:43:42] - Transition to Open LMS

• David: Talks about his move to Open LMS and the shift in focus to higher education.
• Differences between corporate and academic markets and the commonalities in learning management needs.

[00:45:03] - Comparing Corporate and Higher Education LMS Needs

• David: Discusses the evolving needs of universities to prepare students for careers and the corporate focus on skills-based training.

[00:50:14] - Conflict Between Learners and Administrators

• Tom: Expresses views on the inherent conflict between learners and administrators.
• David: Compares this to IT departments versus end-users, discussing the potential synergy with modern SaaS and cloud-based solutions.

[00:58:16] - Future of EdTech and Learning Systems

• David: Envisions a future where learning is skills-based and highly personalized, breaking the traditional degree format.
• Discusses the potential for more granular and modular learning experiences.

[01:00:10] - Collaborations Between Academia and Industry

• Tom: Asks about formalizing partnerships between universities and industries.
• David: Discusses the potential for these partnerships, acknowledging existing informal pipelines and the mutual benefits.

[01:02:17] - Personal Goals and Vision for Open LMS

• David: Shares his aspirations for the growth and success of Open LMS.
• Emphasizes the adaptability of Open LMS and its potential leadership in emerging educational trends.

[01:02:54] - Conclusion

• Tom: Thanks David Ells for the conversation.
• David: Expresses enjoyment and appreciation for the dialogue and Tom's writing.

• JJ: "My my dad was in the music business. He did this thing called mobile recording, where he had this 18 Wheeler truck, in the back of it was a recording studio. And so he would go around the country recording, you know, all kinds of live concerts and albums. And so by the time I got to maybe, I guess, seventh grade, my summers, I was a roadie. So I did that for my summers. And that was really fun for maybe like a week or so. And then I quickly saw that oh, this is pretty hard."
• JJ: "To be like a techie it was all about you had to be real good at math or something. And so you had to be kind of a math nerd. And I just pictured. "Okay, I'm not that.".. But as it turned out a lot of tech is about at least I've found is more about creativity."
• JJ: "We've gotten deep into AI. The attitude internally we had at our company was, okay, this is both a threat and an opportunity kind of thing."
• "Tom: I don't think large language models are going to be with us as, like, a permanent thing. I think eventually they may turn into just like a parlor game. Sort of an amusement. It's just statistically predicting what might come next. That feels like a fatal flaw.  There's a structure problem that is fatal. "
• JJ: "We went years with  no formal marketing. We were working and lucky to be in a field where there's been some demand.  So just trying to do a good job and live off of referrals. Over time, as we  grew, you  want to shift from being reactive to being proactive. That's what I felt would be good to do. That's when we started investing in  marketing internally. "

• "8% of the male population is colorblind, especially to red and green. And so think about the stock market and how that reads, or any kind of financial or big data company and their prevalent uses of green and red.  People see those colors in shades of yellows and beige. ...I think accessibility design is still up and coming.  I think user experience as an industry is still in its infancy... incorporating it into corporate spheres, companies, what does that mean?  I make it a business to help build toolkits on how to define what it is that we do." 
• "Generally people put out surveys at the beginning of a workflow or when someone first drops into their site before login or after login. But where I find that type of survey being really beneficial is after they do something.  So they come there with a certain thing in mind that they want to do.  That is exactly when you should throw up those two questions: a rating scale or an open ended."
• "Nashville is a place of connectors: "Hey, you know what? I know this person, let me email them for you. There is that love here of  meeting, meeting people  organically."
• "Design principles are  value statements that describe the most important goals that a product delivers for its users."
• "With with product led growth, focus on customer acquisition, your expansion and keeping your clients. There's four ways to do that. First: it's with user experience and an intuitive interface. Simplify the user journey. When someone's onboarding, consider how  they quickly understand the value of the product just because of the interaction they're having with the first page or the first few pages, and then make sure that it's a consistent experience across all devices. 
• "The second one is UI. You user interface is really the visual appeal of designing for attention. We touch on this with graphic design. It's bringing clarity and language to guide people through features.  Think of things like feedback, how do you know this is working?"
• "Another one that helps with product led growth is interaction design. Micro-interactions, you know, something that has minimal steps to complete the task or reduce friction and encouraging people to use the product later. A notification  saying, hey, you forgot something! Those are all ways that, you know, kind of brings growth. You don't necessarily think about it."
• "The last one is showcasing  something that you can use for free. But then explaining: 'hey there's these other features that you might like!' And being exploratory with that."