No pun intended. Big Oil has hit a number of setbacks recently, but there’s still huge demand for fossil fuels. Jason Bordoff, director of the Center on Global Energy Policy at Columbia University, gives us a more holistic view of the fight against climate change and fossil fuels’ role in it. Because even as electric cars and solar batteries become more accessible, massive industries like steel and cement still run through a lot of oil. So, too, will emerging economies in Africa and Southeast Asia.

Here’s everything we talked about today:

When you’re done listening, tell your Echo device to “make me smart” for our daily explainers. This week, we’re explaining the Pride flag, Section 18 and charcoal. You can hear them all here. And don’t forget to subscribe to our newsletter! You can find the latest issue here.