Frank and Stan Chats

In May 2020, Stan Johnson and Frank Norris recorded a 15-minute conversation and decided to 'store' it on YouTube. It was meant to be a record of our reactions to the Global Pandemic and its impact on education in England. After a few editions, Frank decided to invite a guest, and we began to realise that the extra person added a lot to our conversation. So, we decided to reach out to colleagues we knew to invite them along. These guests have included very well and less well known people undertaking different roles in education. In fact, it would be fair to say that some of the least well known guests have been the most interesting. We have never tried to make the Chat more than a simple conversation between people. We provide a small thank you gift for our guests and we do not monetise the chat. The reach of the chat has grown, and we are now achieving close to 1k downloads for some podcasts. With Stan away this week, we decided to continue the 300th edition with Frank being joined by Paul Ainsworth, the recently appointed CEO of NACE (National Association for Able Children in Education). It was fortuitous that the TES published on the day of the recording a piece about able children with Paul quoted at the start of the article. Paul explains how his new role is developing and gives some background to his new book to be published in early December that addresses the challenges of executive headship/leadership. Frank reflects on an online meeting about inclusion in Portugese schools. He noted how success in Portugal was based on cross-political agreement on the importance of local children being able to attend local schools. These are managed through supportive clusters where expertise is shared within classrooms. Oh, by the way senior leaders are elected! Now, that's a thought. The chat has guests lined up until last summer 2027. If you would like to join, just comment on a recent video on Youtube and we will get back to you. Thank you for your fantastic support. Frank and Stan

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This week, it is just Frank and Stan chatting for a change. No guest! It is like old times. We consider some recent research into the teaching of mathematics produced by the Nottingham University School of Mathematics Education. It suggests that many pupils feel the curriculum is progressing too quickly. This includes around 10% of the higher attainers! No wonder we are continuing to have many adults saying they can't do maths! Frank then reflects on his music education and considers why some pupils have the opportunity to engage in music while others never seem to get the chance. It was great to be back to where the Frank and Stan Chat started in May 2020; just two experienced educators sharing their thoughts and views. Next week, we hit the 300th edition. Who would have thought this when the chat started in May 2020.

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One of the major benefits of attending national conferences is that you often meet inspiring colleagues. When Frank attended an Association of Education Advisers conference in Manchester he had no idea he would end up chatting with Emily a Headteacher of a small independent alternative provision. The discussion focused on values, principles and aspiration and was fascinating in terms of how her career had led to her current exciting role. Then Emily dropped into the conversation that she was deaf! The conversation continued but I wanted to know more about her career journey, where she had taught and had she been deaf since birth etc. Well, all of these questions are answered in this inspiring chat. It made me realise even more how lucky I was to teach, to lead and to be able to work alongside inspiring people. In terms of the regular chat issues I referenced a recent article in the TES involving Prof Peter Etchells where he encourages us all to step back and reflect on the use of digital devices. Emily considers how effective the Access to Work scheme is in reality. She also tells us more about her love of riding and the struggles she has faced in setting up and leading an independent school. If you listen to only one Frank and Stan Chat this year (we obviously hope you will listen to them all) then this is the one that will leave your heart uplifted and filled with promise. Enjoy.

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With Stan unavailable this week, it is left to Frank to manage proceedings. The chat is fortunate to be connected with some amazing guests, and this week we welcome back Andy Buck, author, speaker, former headteacher, director at National College and Trust Managing Director. He is also the founder of Leadership Matters, BASIC 4 Schools and Cadogan Press. I'm always left wondering what I did with my career when I review the significant achievements of others. Anyway, Andy provides an interesting outline of his career and how he was encouraged by senior colleagues to take the next step forward and upward. He reflects on the reasons for stepping down and how exciting his current work is. Andy considers the importance of Lucy Powell's speech emphasising the importance of oracy and her commitment to reform at Ofsted. Frank then reflects on two recent visits when he met CEO Beryce Nixon and Headteacher Jonathan Berry and considers the power of understated (or not flashy) leadership, that is firmly rooted in shared piorities, honesty, respect and trust. Enjoy.

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Dave McPartlin is the Headteacher of Flakefleet Primary School in Fleetwood. He is an extraordinary colleague who has driven improvements at his school for the benefit of his pupils, but also for the local community. We last visited the school in November 2023, when he was just about to open a community cafe. We were delighted to walk around the school, chat with staff and pupils and finish off the visit by recording our weekly chat there. Dave is probably best known for leading his school to the Britian's Got Talent final...and winning. But, it would be totally wrong to make this his greatest achievement because he has committed his career to working in some of the most socially and economically challenging areas of the North West and has made a significant impact in raising aspirations and outcomes. He has used the recognition he has gained to comment on important education issues. This week, Stan considers the rather mixed messages being offered around the importance of attendance while Dave comments on the woes at Ofsted. Frank completes the chat by considering what Trust and Governing Boards can learn from the problems currently being experienced at Manchester City FC.

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No guest has appeared three times in a year on the Frank and Stan Chat. Dame Kathy August is the exception. She has worked for over forty years in the public sector (Education) with three Headships and Director posts in LEAs. She was Principal of one of the first city Academies in Moss Side, Manchester, which opened in 2003 and became outstanding in 2008/09. Following this, she was Deputy Chief Executive and Acting Chief Executive of a large multi-academy trust and then helped a new trust establish itself in the East of England. She was awarded a DBE for services to education in 2014. More recently, she was a Board member at Ofsted and has written two books on school improvement and leadership. Her recent collaboration with Tom Clark saw the publication of the brilliantly informative and insightful book 'Voices of the Education Vanguard'. During the discussion, Kathy misquoted the description of John Patton. It was in fact, ‘arrogance mixed with lack of confidence’ The chat covers Stan's reflections on research undertaken by 'ICT Mr. P' on why teachers are leaving the profession. We all reflect on toxic leaders and the culture they sadly promote. Kathy then considers the PM's speech, and Frank closes the discussion with thoughts on the shift in approach that is required when a school is retracting, as against a period of expansion. A highly enjoyable chat. We are pleased to report that Kathy is keen to join us again in the autumn of 2027.

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The second Live Edition of the Frank and Stan Chat took place at Lacey Green Primary School in Wilmslow last week. We were a tad nervous about the technology but it all worked well. We asked delegates to submit questions in advance, but neither of us had sight of them. We randomly selected them and asked the author of the question if they fancied joining us. Some chose to. The discussion was fascinating. We are keen to give the live version of our chat another go, if someone will have us! Let us know what you think.

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In February, Mel McMorrow was a guest on the chat. She had just published an amazing book called 'You've got me today!'. It draws on her extensive experience working in some of the most challenging secondary schools in the North West. We were keen to invite her back and were a little surprised when she informed us that she would like Sarah Highfield to join as well. Frank has seen their incredible work first-hand when he was the CEO at the Coop Academies Trust. Mel was the teaching and learning guru at one of the academies and Sarah was second in the Maths department. The big news they shared was that they had recently started a tutoring business and they were really enjoying it. So, that's what they offered for the 'What's caught your eye' section. Stan discussed the Seldon and Bunting report on AI and Frank reflected on some wise words offered by Christian Schiller in 1946. There is always a varied mix of topics on the Frank and Stan Chat. Enjoy

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Frank has known Mick for close on 20 years and had been keen to invite him to be a guest on the chat. He's a major figure in education, bringing a wealth of varied experience aligned with a strong academic background. His collaboration with Tim Brighouse, 'About our schools; Improving on previous best' is a seminal book. In this chat he doesn't disappoint. Stan opens the conversation, considering the difficulty (or not) of GCSE mathematics and why progress appears to slow in secondary schools. Mick then explains why he is such a strong supporter of 'The Open School' movement. Frank then considers why truth matters and why a strong ethical approach to leadership is essential for being honest with those being served and those being led. It was a privilege spending 40 minutes chatting with an education colossus. Enjoy. We certainly did.

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