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Frank and Stan Chats
By Frank Norris and Stan JohnsonEducation
Frank and Stan Chats episodes
- Frank and Stan Chat No. 296Dave McPartlin is the Headteacher of Flakefleet Primary School in Fleetwood. He is an extraordinary colleague who has driven improvements at his school for the benefit of his pupils, but also for the local community. We last visited the school in November 2023, when he was just about to open a community cafe. We were delighted to walk around the school, chat with staff and pupils and finish off the visit by recording our weekly chat there. Dave is probably best known for leading his school to the Britian's Got Talent final...and winning. But, it would be totally wrong to make this his greatest achievement because he has committed his career to working in some of the most socially and economically challenging areas of the North West and has made a significant impact in raising aspirations and outcomes. He has used the recognition he has gained to comment on important education issues. This week, Stan considers the rather mixed messages being offered around the importance of attendance while Dave comments on the woes at Ofsted. Frank completes the chat by considering what Trust and Governing Boards can learn from the problems currently being experienced at Manchester City FC.
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37 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 295No guest has appeared three times in a year on the Frank and Stan Chat. Dame Kathy August is the exception. She has worked for over forty years in the public sector (Education) with three Headships and Director posts in LEAs. She was Principal of one of the first city Academies in Moss Side, Manchester, which opened in 2003 and became outstanding in 2008/09. Following this, she was Deputy Chief Executive and Acting Chief Executive of a large multi-academy trust and then helped a new trust establish itself in the East of England. She was awarded a DBE for services to education in 2014. More recently, she was a Board member at Ofsted and has written two books on school improvement and leadership. Her recent collaboration with Tom Clark saw the publication of the brilliantly informative and insightful book 'Voices of the Education Vanguard'. During the discussion, Kathy misquoted the description of John Patton. It was in fact, ‘arrogance mixed with lack of confidence’ The chat covers Stan's reflections on research undertaken by 'ICT Mr. P' on why teachers are leaving the profession. We all reflect on toxic leaders and the culture they sadly promote. Kathy then considers the PM's speech, and Frank closes the discussion with thoughts on the shift in approach that is required when a school is retracting, as against a period of expansion. A highly enjoyable chat. We are pleased to report that Kathy is keen to join us again in the autumn of 2027.
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39 min - Frank and Stan Chat LiveThe second Live Edition of the Frank and Stan Chat took place at Lacey Green Primary School in Wilmslow last week. We were a tad nervous about the technology but it all worked well. We asked delegates to submit questions in advance, but neither of us had sight of them. We randomly selected them and asked the author of the question if they fancied joining us. Some chose to. The discussion was fascinating. We are keen to give the live version of our chat another go, if someone will have us! Let us know what you think.
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41 min - Frank and Stan Chat No.294In February, Mel McMorrow was a guest on the chat. She had just published an amazing book called 'You've got me today!'. It draws on her extensive experience working in some of the most challenging secondary schools in the North West. We were keen to invite her back and were a little surprised when she informed us that she would like Sarah Highfield to join as well. Frank has seen their incredible work first-hand when he was the CEO at the Coop Academies Trust. Mel was the teaching and learning guru at one of the academies and Sarah was second in the Maths department. The big news they shared was that they had recently started a tutoring business and they were really enjoying it. So, that's what they offered for the 'What's caught your eye' section. Stan discussed the Seldon and Bunting report on AI and Frank reflected on some wise words offered by Christian Schiller in 1946. There is always a varied mix of topics on the Frank and Stan Chat. Enjoy
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39 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 293
This week, the Frank and Stan Chat is delighted to have Mark Phillips, a former HMI with expertise in music education, rejoin us after a highly enjoyable and well received guest appearance last year. Stan gets things moving by reflecting on the recent ITV documentary 7Up. He considers how many significant life changes and developments take place between the ages of 7 and 21 and how they play out in later life. Mark then considers the difference between knowledge of music and participation in music. He explains why engagement is so important and why some schools struggle to create a high-quality music experience for pupils. Frank then draws on some recent social media covering the OECD PISA results. He reads an X message from Prof Andy Hargreaves's (a frequent guest on the chat), where he explains why we need to 'get a grip on these bigger issues, together, and stop rearranging the nationalistic deckchairs on the glocal Titanic'.
We also explain how we are going to manage the second Live Edition of the Frank and Stan Chat in Cheshire on Thursday. It's going to be an interesting ride.
Enjoy.
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37 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 292Frank has known Mick for close on 20 years and had been keen to invite him to be a guest on the chat. He's a major figure in education, bringing a wealth of varied experience aligned with a strong academic background. His collaboration with Tim Brighouse, 'About our schools; Improving on previous best' is a seminal book. In this chat he doesn't disappoint. Stan opens the conversation, considering the difficulty (or not) of GCSE mathematics and why progress appears to slow in secondary schools. Mick then explains why he is such a strong supporter of 'The Open School' movement. Frank then considers why truth matters and why a strong ethical approach to leadership is essential for being honest with those being served and those being led. It was a privilege spending 40 minutes chatting with an education colossus. Enjoy. We certainly did.
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43 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 291
The Frank and Stan Chat which covers Education and Leadership issues, is back for its seventh academic year. Who said it wouldn't last?
Frank and Stan Chat feel privileged to have Dennis Sherwood as a guest. His career includes reading physics at Clare College, Cambridge, followed by an MPhil at the Department of Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry at Yale University, and a PhD in biology at the University of California, San Diego. Dennis is a Sloan Fellow, with distinction, of London Business School.
He joined Deloitte Haskins + Sells as a trainee IT consultant, and spent 18 years. For 12 of those years, he was a consulting partner, pioneering business and financial modelling, and founded a centre of excellence in the use of mathematics and statistics in business. He then became an Executive Director with Goldman Sachs, taking up the role of Head of Management Controls (Europe), responsible for internal audit and internal consulting in London, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich and Milan. Subsequently, Dennis was appointed Managing Director of the UK operations of SRI Consulting.
Dennis is an accomplished public speaker, and has appeared on the platform of many conferences; he has written many articles, for journals such as London Business School's Business Strategy Review, Management Today, Accountancy and Accountancy Age. He is also the author of fifteen books, including Unlock Your Mind, Smart Things to Know about Innovation and Creativity, Creating an Innovative Culture, Seeing the Forest for the Trees, Creativity for Scientists and Engineers, Strategic Thinking Illustrated - Strategy made visual using systems thinking, and 'Missing the Mark' Why so many school exam grades are wrong, and how to get results we can trust.
For those who have followed our chat over the past few years, you will know that we always invite Dennis to join us in early September to take stock of the examination results period. Dennis managed to secure an extensive recent Observer piece about the vagaries of the examination system, making clear why so many grades awarded are wrong. He was also interviewed by Sky News recently. This chat covers much of this but also considers why a third of students feel they have failed their secondary education and the back story to the recent news that a headteacher of a small primary school who recently underwent surgery for cancer had a deferral refused by Ofsted.
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52 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 290: Dame Kathy August and Tom Clark CBEFrank and Stan reflect on some recent announcements by the new Prime Minister and the new Secretary of State for Education on vocational and technical education. We then get into the main part of this mid-summer break chat with Dame Kathy August and Tom Clark CBE. Over the past 20 years, education has undergone significant changes. The movement from maintained schools run by local authorities to an academy trust arrangement has been one of the most significant. During that period, governments have come and gone, but the legacy of prominent education figures who helped fashion that innovation has remained. Kathy and Tom were engaged in that work from different perspectives. They have joined forces to co-author an amazing new book called 'Voices from the education vanguard'. They interviewed just over 40 prominent education figures including, Lord Michael Gove, David Laws, Sam Freedman, Sir David Bell, Sir Michael Wilshaw, Sir Nick Gibb, Lord Ken Baker and many others to better understand their motivation for reform, what appeared to work well and their regrets, if any. The discussions are condensed into 3 or 4 pages, focusing on major issues. The second half of the book considers three themes that emanated from the discussions. These cover Culture, Governance and Architecture. We highly recommend this book. The quality of this chat gives an insight into what you get when you read their book. Enjoy.
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48 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 259
The joy of our weekly chats lies in the contributions made by our amazing guests. This week is no exception as we are joined by a former HMI, Mathematics subject lead and specialist adviser, Steve Wren. Steve has been keeping a keen eye on Ofsted's new inspection framework and has shared his insights on social media. Today he focuses on the problems around attendance and behaviour. Stan gets things rolling by considering how compliant schools and their leaders are, even when there is much to be disgruntled by. He considers what would happen if a school didn't go out of its way to work openly with inspectors. Frank closes the chat with his growing dislike of SUV drivers parking on yellow lines so that their children can avoid a two-minute walk to school. He also draws attention to two headteachers who regularly call this action out despite it not being in their job description.
It's a belting chat. Enjoy, we believe you will!
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45 min - Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No. 30
The SPOTLIGHT editions of the Frank and Stan Chat provide us with a chance to meet colleagues with one topic of conversation. The 30th edition is with Sian Hampton and Alice Gregson. They have created a System Leadership programme that is focused on a range of partners delivering services for children and families. It brings educators together with those from health, social care, housing and other partners to consider how jointly they can contribute more if they are better coordinated.
The chat considers how previous attempts have been marginally successful and what is currently being attempted. Sian and Alice get a chance to chat about their new programme. If you are interested this is the weblink you will need. https://elevatingleadership.co.uk/programmes/
Enjoy.
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34 min
About Frank and Stan Chats
From the publisher's feed
Frank Norris and Stan Johnson have been friends since 1995. Both have had successful and lengthy careers in education. Frank was a very senior HMI with Ofsted for 11 years and was the CEO of the Coop…
Academies Trust for 6 years. Stan was seconded to Ofsted for a year and then returned to headship before working as a senior adviser with Lancashire LA. He has latterly led a successful education consultancy in the North West. Prior to Covid-19, the two gents would meet in Manchester for a pint or two but the pandemic put an end to that. On 1 May 2020, they recorded their first video chat as a way of recording their emotions and reactions to the pandemic. After putting the video on Youtube as a safe place to store it they realised that some followers began to appear. Now, with nearly 180 episodes and having chatted to Professors, CEOs, journalists, teachers, former HMI, education thinkers and Frank's Key Stage 1 leading daughter they have a loyal following and a rapidly increasing number of viewers. The reach of the Frank and Stan Chat stretches from Bogota to Ottawa to Greece and their first Live Edition was recorded in front of nearly 200 Headteachers in York. The Chats are not undertaken to attract followers or for financial reward (nothing is received and nothing will be received). It is a way of airing views on education matters between two professional friends with a focus on leadership. We are honoured to be invited to host the weekly chats on the Leader-connect website www.leader-connect.co.uk. The chats helped the gents get through the pandemic and they are delighted that they have been enjoyed by others and appear to have helped in developing leadership thought and actions. If you fancy being a guest then just reach out. We never post a video unless the guest is comfortable with it. So, it is a relatively risk-free environment. Thank you. Frank and Stan. PS. We were honoured to be identified as one of the Top 50 education and leadership podcasts in THE WORLD!!! We can't believe it, but it appears to be true.
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