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Frank and Stan Chats
By Frank Norris and Stan JohnsonEducation
Frank and Stan Chats episodes
- Frank and Stan Chat No. 188This week the gents are joined by a friend, colleague and keen follower of their weekly chat, Kendra Allen. This is the third time Kendra has been a guest and she never disappoints in being able to draw on considerable experience as a senior leader and adviser to get to the heart of the weekly education news. This week we chat about lecterns, rain, umbrellas, planning (or lack of it) and why did someone not step outside and offer an umbrella to the PM, or least hold one open for him? Stan considers whether three separate visits to a Croydon school by Ofsted can realistically be deemed a single inspection? Kendra then connects her interest in darts and National Numeracy Day which was this week. Frank then considers all of the proposals, consultations, reviews, publications, surveys and other activities that will now stop (and possibly not proceed) following the move to a purdah period. It's a fun and enjoyable chat with some humour so, we hope, a nice way to move into the Bank Holiday.
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41 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 187The gents are delighted Aelwyn Pugh, Former HMI, Senior Effectiveness Officer and Head of Music Service decided to return as a guest. His first appearance was in September 2023 and led to comments such as 'at last we get to hear a proper HMI chatting about education' and 'this is what HMI used to be like. Aelwyn gets things moving by explaining how his career covered a wide range of settings and experiences. Frank suggested this made him a strong candidate for HMI. He then goes on to give the reason why he never received a proper induction as HMI. A very different experience to Frank's. Stan then demands that the government create an award called 'The what doesn't happen that should be banned award' as he considers the release of recent sex education guidance that covers amongst other things, gender identity. All guests consider how poorly the Secretary of State conveyed the need for such guidance. Aelwyn then reflects on efforts to improve attendance and why his periods of non-attendance at school enhanced his educational experience. Frank then ponders how effective management is not all down to salary and prestige but is all about community and dedication. He explains who Kevin Maher is and why he won a major football award this week.
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42 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 186
When Frank and Stan held their first chat in May 2020 we never imagined others would be interested in them. We certainly didn't envisage that eminent thinkers, practitioners and respected colleagues would join us as guests. This week we are delighted welcome back Neil Jurd, author of 'The Leadership Book', former army officer and RMA Sandhurst instructor and now a business leader of a training organisation in leadership development and coaching. Neil has an MA from Cranfield University and a fellow of the Institute of Leadership and Management. He was appointed OBE in 2021 and awarded the British Citizen Award in 2020. Along with this impressive CV Neil is a very interesting and well informed colleague.
The chat considers how Neil's military training and experience influenced his approach to leadership. He gives some clear, practical examples with the discussion moving on to trust and humility as key themes. Stan then considers what's caught his eyes this week and focuses on an MA dissertation he received for comment from Lucy Truman, a regular guest on the Frank and Stan Chat. He reflects on how the period of COVID encouraged local authority staff to get on with decision making without having to consult. He wonders whether consultation is currently getting in the way of decision making. Neil then reflects on the impact of AI on essay writing and how it weakens the writing style and reduces individuality. Frank then ponders over the surprising news that the DWP had harvested some pupil data from the DfE to check on benefit fraud. This arrangement was not widely known. We all then considered what other data is being shared on citizens.
A varied and interesting chat. Hope you enjoy it.
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50 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 185It was a privilege to be joined by Jan Rowe from John Moores University for a chat about ITE and the latest education news. It didn't take long for us all to reflect on the teacher trainer market review and the impact it has had. It is fair to say we found it hard to identify many strengths, if at all. Teacher recruitment numbers remain low and existing providers have had to devote valuable time to the process when all available resources should have been focused on increasing recruitment figures. Stan considers the decision by a MAT to lose all Teaching Assistants from their Primary Schools replacing them with fewer positions with a different title and focus. He considers whether it was a good look for there to be a big increase in the number of senior colleagues earning over £100k while introducing the change. He also considers the different layers of leadership some trusts have adopted. Jan then explains why there was such an outcry when the government stopped funding the Now Teach charity. Jan explains that this charity does not train the teachers, they just identify potential candidates and pass them on to a training provider. Jan connects the charity's links with media outlets and celebrities as the possible reason for such an outcry over the loss of the £1.7m project. Frank ends by drawing attention www.thealternative big listen.co.uk and the success it has had in attracting much better than expected responses. Great chat. The best bit of professional development Frank and Stan get each week. We will always be grateful for the time our great gusts give us. Hope you enjoy it as much as we did.
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45 min - Frank and Stan Chat No 184BThis week the gents are joined by Neil Sheldon, Chair of the Teaching Statistics Trust, Fellow of the RSS and a Chartered Statistician Vice-Chair of the UK Linguistics Olympiad and Member of the Committee for Linguistics in Education. A teacher of pupils aged from 9yrs to 90yrs he's a fascinating and well informed colleague in the way statistics are used in society and particularly in education. Neil kicks off with a reflection on how we were connected through the work of Dr Dennis Sherwood and the accuracy of examination results. He explains how statistics is about insight rather than numbers. Stan then considers the government's response to the Coroner's Report following the tragic death of Ruth Perry. He highlights the inconsistencies and vagueness of their response. Neil then explains the enjoyment he gained from reading 'All that remains' by Sue Black. This is a reflection on questions or mortality by a professor of anatomy and forensic anthropology, who works in war and disaster zones, As Neil indicates it is a gripping and fascinating read. Frank then reveals the launch of The Alternative Big Listen which is an attempt to discover the views of professionals about Ofsted's work. It launches on 1 May. The chat ends with Neil reflecting on what he would change in education if he had the power. He focuses on the need to ensure all those reviewing data have a clear understanding of what it means. A riveting chat.
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3 min - Frank and Stan Chat No.184 Part AThis week the gents are joined by Neil Sheldon, Chair of the Teaching Statistics Trust, Fellow of the RSS and a Chartered Statistician Vice-Chair of the UK Linguistics Olympiad and Member of the Committee for Linguistics in Education. A teacher of pupils aged from 9yrs to 90yrs he's a fascinating and well informed colleague in the way statistics are used in society and particularly in education. Neil kicks off with a reflection on how we were connected through the work of Dr Dennis Sherwood and the accuracy of examination results. He explains how statistics is about insight rather than numbers. Stan then considers the government's response to the Coroner's Report following the tragic death of Ruth Perry. He highlights the inconsistencies and vagueness of their response. Neil then explains the enjoyment he gained from reading 'All that remains' by Sue Black. This is a reflection on questions or mortality by a professor of anatomy and forensic anthropology, who works in war and disaster zones, As Neil indicates it is a gripping and fascinating read. Frank then reveals the launch of The Alternative Big Listen which is an attempt to discover the views of professionals about Ofsted's work. It launches on 1 May. The chat ends with Neil reflecting on what he would change in education if he had the power. He focuses on the need to ensure all those reviewing data have a clear understanding of what it means. A riveting chat.
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37 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 183
We are grateful to Adrian Lyons for stepping in when the planned guest was unavailable. Adrian was one of Her Majesty’s Inspectors of Education, one of the most experienced HMI in Ofsted with a national lead for economics, business and enterprise. He regularly led the inspections of secondary schools, primary schools and initial teacher training providers. He led major national surveys such as ‘Getting Ready for Work’ in 2016 and in 2019 was the lead HMI for Ofsted’s research into initial teacher education (ITE) training programmes. His role for many years involved working with directors to find solutions to individual and organisational problems. Now he works as an independent consultant and is a frequent keynote presenter across Europe.
The chat begins with the gents considering the value of Ofsted's Big Listen. Adrian and Frank reflect on previous surveys of views from Ofsted and note that the closed nature of the questions leads to fairly predictable responses. Also, the survey doesn't cover a number of important issues such as whether a single word grade should continue, whether more emphasis should be placed on school self evaluation and whether it is right to excluded data provided by the school.
Stan reflects on the recent IFS report on Sure Start Centres, Adrian considers the recent Ofsted report on Religious Education and Frank shares some views on how work experience opportunities are changing.
An interesting and varied chat. We hope you enjoy it.
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40 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 182
Following a short Easter break the two gents are back this week with an amazing guest. Dr Vic Carr is a Primary headteacher on The Wirral, Reserve Army Officer; Chartered Manager; CollectivEd Senior Fellow; Chartered College of Teaching Fellow; Senior Research Fellow, Centre for Army Leadership; author and TEDx speaker who focuses on leadership and the power of language. She has lectured part time at Master’s degree level, has 3 MAs in Equality and Diversity; Leadership; and Modern War Studies/Contemporary Military History; and a doctorate in leadership and politics.
Following the normal introductions Frank focuses on Vic's military training and the leadership development she has experienced through this work. This is just up Stan's street so the insight and examples provided by them both provide a powerful example of why honesty, integrity, consistency and consideration and love are at the heart of effective leadership.
The clarity of thinking and the way Vic draws in examples from her varied career make the chat compelling. There is just enough time to consider the rather bizarre idea the government has come up with recently which is to encourage scouts to become teachers.
It is a belting chat and we recommend colleagues sit back and listen to Vic explain her leadership philosophy. We are amazed that such wonderful guests are willing to give us their time. Frank and Stan, we hope, our watchers, listeners and followers are the real beneficiaries.
Enjoy
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33 min - Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT No.6
The next SPOTLIGHT Edition considers a recent blog written by Mark Innes, Dr Elizabeth Gregory and Dr Lisa Murtagh on the apparent marketisation of professional leadership qualifications. The three academics published a BERA piece to explains the development of national leadership programmes and how they have shifted through the DfE's control into six NPQs provided by nine lead providers. Their blog initially 'focused on job adverts which demonstrated how government policy had enriched a handful of densely networked players, put others in potentially precarious positions, and impoverished teacher development'. It's a cracking discussion which reflects on the lucrative market and the concerns about a 'golden thread' approach. The researchers are keen to hear from colleagues who have completed the various programmes to discover how useful they have been. Contact details are below:
Enjoy.
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33 min - Frank and Stan Chat No. 181
Frank met the amazing Sarah Davies at a conference last September in London. He was impressed by her insight, passion and commitment of Sarah so he reached out and luckily she agreed to be a guest on our weekly Frank and Stan Chat. She explains why Oracy is so important, how it unlocks doors in other areas of learning and is not just an English department issue. She also explains how she found the time to write 'Talking about Tracy' during the various Covid lockdowns.
Stan kicks off by questioning the view that was shared today in the press that young people should not have a mobile phone until they are 16. Sarah then ponders on the gaping holes in the government's teacher recruitment targets and Frank shares some research he's undertaken analysing the proportion of students who have progressed to graduate or L3+ qualifications across many Northern towns and cities. The figures are not what you would expect.
It's a great chat. We enjoyed it immensely and we hope you do as well.
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38 min
About Frank and Stan Chats
From the publisher's feed
Frank Norris and Stan Johnson have been friends since 1995. Both have had successful and lengthy careers in education. Frank was a very senior HMI with Ofsted for 11 years and was the CEO of the Coop…
Academies Trust for 6 years. Stan was seconded to Ofsted for a year and then returned to headship before working as a senior adviser with Lancashire LA. He has latterly led a successful education consultancy in the North West. Prior to Covid-19, the two gents would meet in Manchester for a pint or two but the pandemic put an end to that. On 1 May 2020, they recorded their first video chat as a way of recording their emotions and reactions to the pandemic. After putting the video on Youtube as a safe place to store it they realised that some followers began to appear. Now, with nearly 180 episodes and having chatted to Professors, CEOs, journalists, teachers, former HMI, education thinkers and Frank's Key Stage 1 leading daughter they have a loyal following and a rapidly increasing number of viewers. The reach of the Frank and Stan Chat stretches from Bogota to Ottawa to Greece and their first Live Edition was recorded in front of nearly 200 Headteachers in York. The Chats are not undertaken to attract followers or for financial reward (nothing is received and nothing will be received). It is a way of airing views on education matters between two professional friends with a focus on leadership. We are honoured to be invited to host the weekly chats on the Leader-connect website www.leader-connect.co.uk. The chats helped the gents get through the pandemic and they are delighted that they have been enjoyed by others and appear to have helped in developing leadership thought and actions. If you fancy being a guest then just reach out. We never post a video unless the guest is comfortable with it. So, it is a relatively risk-free environment. Thank you. Frank and Stan. PS. We were honoured to be identified as one of the Top 50 education and leadership podcasts in THE WORLD!!! We can't believe it, but it appears to be true.
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