391 BCE is jam-packed with action, but the event that stands out is the arrival of the Gauls in centre stage. It’s time to surf the Celtic Wave!

The year began well for the Romans as they recovered from the pestilence that had caused such havoc the year before. Finally, they were strong enough to take down the Sappinates and the Volsinii who had tried to take advantage of their illness. Scoundrels! And it wasn’t hard at all – these guys barely put up a fight!

In spite of their success on the battlefield, there were signs of trouble ahead. A humble plebeian, Marcus Caedicius, heard a god speak to him in the dead of the night whilst he was on the Nova Via. The god (Aius Locutius, the speaking voice) told him that the Gauls were coming and that he had to let the magistrates know right away!

The magistrates showed zero interest in anything this lowly pleb had to say.  Um, why was this lowly man even talking to them? Didn’t he know they were patricians? And the Gauls? They were so far away, the Romans had barely even heard of them! Ridiculous.  

Arrogance continued to be a problem for the Romans. Having ignored a message from the GODS, they now turned on the best man who ever lived, Camillus.

The last thing Camillus needed was drama as his young son had just passed away. However, the tribune of the plebs, Lucius Apuleius, cared not. He was coming after Camillus over the way he had handled the spoils captured from Veii. Did he embezzle some of the booty? Were there suddenly two fancy bronze doors in his house that might have once belonged in Veii?

Camillus was outraged by these accusations, but after consulting with friends and clients, he realised that he did not have the support he needed to beat the charges. Rather than wait around to be convicted, Camillus went into exile – but not before asking the gods to make the Romans rue the day they had driven him away! Pretty please, gods of Rome, prove his innocence and put them in a situation which only Camillus could fix. Then they’d have to come back on their knees!

A Celtic bracelet, 4th century BCE, Courtesy of the Met Museum.

Envoys from the Etruscan city of Clusium now arrived in Rome, seeking help against some troublesome Gauls who had arrived in their neighbourhood. This seems like an odd turn of events for so many reasons. The Romans did not have a strong relationship with Clusium. This was an Etruscan city quite some distance to the north. Perhaps they had been inspired by Rome’s performance against Volsinii?

Although the exact details are questionable, there is no doubt that Gallic tribes had migrated into northern Italy. There are many stories associated with this Celtic wave, including some family intrigue, the lure of Etruscan fruits, wine – oh, and land! We wish we had more accounts from the Gauls/ Celts themselves, but we have to let the archaeology speak for them. The evidence confirms Celtic migration over the Alps and into northern Italy from the 5th century BCE and Livy seems to have been inspired by Herodotus in his own account of the varied Celtic peoples who crossed the Alps.

Livy believes that it was the Senones tribe who rocked up at Clusium in the early 4th century, one the last to make the move. Although there is little archaeological evidence to suggest contact between these groups, let’s not interrupt Livy’s narrative. The people of Clusium were freaked out by these strangers and decided to turn to Rome. Surely the Romans would remember that they had not helped Veii out during the recent war? That must count for something?

The Romans were not so sure. They decided to send the three sons of Marcus Fabius Ambustus as ambassadors to have a wee chat with the Gauls. They would issue a stern warning and hope that the new arrivals went on their merry way. No one wants a war, guys! In fact, the Romans would love to make new friends.

How did the Senones respond? You’ll have to tune in for our epic multi-episode coverage of 390 BCE!  

L. Lucretius – f. – n. Tricipitinus Flavus (Pat) Cos. Suff. 393, Mil. Tr. c. p. 388, 383, 381.

Ser. Sulpicius Q. f. Ser. n. Camerinus (Pat). Cos. Suff. 393.

L. (or M.) Aemilius Mam. f. M. n. Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 389, 387, 383, 382, 380.

L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c.p. 407, 405, 398, 397, 395, 394.

Agripp. Furius Sex. f. -n. Fusus (Pat)

C. Aemilius Tr. f. Tr. n. Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 394.

L. Apuleius

Quaestors

Sp. Carvilius

M. Furius Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381

P. Cornelius Scipio (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 395, 394?

L. Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 393, 392, Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 405, 403, 401, 398

Q. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 390

K. ?Fabius M. f. Q. n. (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 404, 401, 395, 390

Num. Fabius M. f. Q. n. (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 406, 390.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects thanks to Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad,

Dr G 0:32
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:58
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr rad,

Dr G 1:06
and I am your other host. Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:10
now. Dr G, we are emerging from a very dark time in ancient Roman history. 392 BCE is not well known to the general public, but we discovered it was a year of a terrible pestilence where, if you got sick, you might very well catch an itch that could cause you to scratch your way through your flesh to your very bones,

Dr G 1:34
horrifying, and the sort of thing that the Romans want you to forget, but we’re going to remind you About every time

Dr Rad 1:40
it happens, honestly, I keep getting the shivers every time I think

Dr G 1:46
disgusting. It has been a troublesome time for the Romans recently, despite what appears to be the stellar victory of a Fe and the Aequians being easy to conquer, but seemingly coming back every year anyway, like some kind of, I don’t know, zombie enemy.

Dr Rad 2:08
I was gonna say, like a Jack in the Box, just

Dr G 2:11
when you think they’re gone, they’re back, and we are now heading squarely for what appears to be a much bigger disaster. I would say that this year is a lead in to what is going to be an epic problem for Rome. I

Dr Rad 2:25
would say so I think we’re going to do an episode on 391 BC, which is this episode, and then it may take us, like five or six episodes to get through the next lot.

Dr G 2:38
Strap yourselves and listeners, we’re heading onto a bumpy road for the Romans. Yeah,

Dr Rad 2:43
please, please be forewarned. 390 BCE will not be covered in a single episode.

Dr G 2:49
It is unlikely, but even 391 I have to say, because it is a lead in to what is going to happen. Everybody is talking about it. And when I say everybody, I’m just going to give you my list of sources, not because I’m trying to show off, but because it’s confusing in my head, and I gotta have them all written down. There’s the Fasti Capitolini, no surprises there. I also have Valerius, Maximus, Plutarch’s life of Camillus, Cicero’s On the house, Pliny’s Natural History, Appian’s Italic wars, Dio Cassius, The illustrious men by the unknown author, Dionysius of Halicarnassus makes a reappearance, as does his epitomator, likewise, Eutropius, Diodorus Siculus is back with his ongoing series. Meanwhile, in Sicily, and this is way more sources than I usually have. Fortunately, most of them are saying very similar things. So I think that’s going to be the crux of the issue. When we get into

Dr Rad 3:54
it, I was going to say, you’re making me feel extremely sheepish, because my list of sources is Livy

Dr G 4:02
and I’m not sad about that. I think Livy is providing us with the consistent narrative that is anchoring all of our episodes at the moment. So I think you’re doing a very valuable and important job in tackling Livy, because it’s providing the groundwork for all of the sort of chaotic bits and pieces that I have little chips that I’m I throw into the bowl at the party and hope will one day make something great.

Dr Rad 4:27
I’m not gonna lie, when people think Fiona Radford, they think consistency.

Dr G 4:33
See, there you go.

Dr Rad 4:35
Yeah. All right. So Dr, G, as you say, this will be a big one, because it’s the lead up to one of the biggest disasters in early Roman history, if not perhaps the biggest disaster in early Roman history. So without further ado, let’s try and leave plague behind if we can, because we’ve learned nothing from analytic history. It’s that disease outbreaks only ever last. 12 months Exactly. They can’t exceed that time period. It’s impossible. Let’s delve into 391, BCE, Oh.

Dr G 5:20
Huh? 391 What a time, what a place

Dr Rad 5:32
now. Dr, G, I would wager that the list of magistrates is going to take us a good 10 minutes. So let’s get cracking. All right,

Dr G 5:40
we have a return of the military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 5:45
Yes, yes, just reminding our listeners that apparently the reason for the switch from consuls back to military tribunes with consular power was because it’s possible to have multiple military tribunes with consular power, as in more than two. And the theory is that if you have more than two less likely that they’ll all get gravely ill and scratch themselves to death.

Dr G 6:06
It does also mean, if you’ve got wars on many fronts, you’re able to send a commander in every direction possible, which is exciting news. So we have six military tribunes with consular power, which is really reaching the upper threshold of what the Romans are capable of delivering. In this magistracy, we have Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus Flavus, hmm. Now, this guy was suffect consul in 393 so he was around a couple of years ago, and I did trip over his name, I think, in the previous episode when we talked about him. So I’ve really practiced

Dr Rad 6:46
for this. He’s asking for it with that many syllables, outrageous,

Dr G 6:49
exactly, Latin. What are you trying to do to me? Exactly. He is joined by Servilius Sulpicius Camerinus, also suffect consul in 393,

Dr Rad 7:02
gang back together. The gang’s back together.

Dr G 7:05
Yeah, they’re like, we’ve served together before. It’s gonna be fine. We’ve got a guy who we’re not sure of, the praenoman. He could be a Lucius or he could be a Marcus, but he’s definitely an Aelius Mamercinus. This is his first time in the role. Congratulations.

Dr Rad 7:22
That won’t be his last, from the looks of things

Dr G 7:24
certainly won’t, but this is where it all begins. We also have Lucius Furius Medullinus, whoa, the Furii are back in town, he was previously consul in 413, 409, and also, previously military Tribune, about seven times, wow. So he has a lot of experience under his belt. Who knows how many gray hairs He is joined by Agrippa Furius Fusus, so from the same gens, and this is the only time that this guy appears in the Fasti. No other role, no other time. It’s a special year. A small round of applause for Agrippa Furius Fusus,

Dr Rad 8:12
we don’t often get the name Agrippa mixed in with the Furii clan. I feel

Dr G 8:19
this is an odd situation. I don’t think anybody is comfortable with it. Scholars have some questions,

Dr Rad 8:25
yeah. See, the only thing we’ve learned about Roman names is that they have a certain pattern to them. You just start to get a feel for it after talking about them this many times.

Dr G 8:34
That’s true, and definitely different genses have different preferences when it comes to their praenomens. So you start to see patterns there. I think the reason why he appears might become more clear as we get further down the list. Sure the last military Tribune with consular power is Gaius Aemilius Mamercinus. And if you thought I said his name already, you’re almost right, because two of those three names appeared earlier in the list. So this guy is definitely part of the Aemilii gens, and definitely the same branch of the family as the guy, Lucius or Marcus Aelius. They don’t have the same father, they don’t have the same grandfather, so they’re slightly different branches of the family, but they’re pretty closely connected. You would think

Dr Rad 9:20
a lot of patrician domination. Dr G, and I’m not thrilled about it.

Dr G 9:24
There is a lot of patricians in this list. All of them are patrician and Gaius Aemilius Mamercinus was also previously military Tribune in 394, okay, so he’s got a little bit of experience. So the only newcomer here is Agrippa Furius Fusus. Now things get more complicated as we move away from the military tribune with consular power. And this was going to lead into, I think, some of the discussion we have about the source material, because we have a tribune of the plebs listed a guy called Lucius Apuleius. We also have a Quaestor listed, Spurius Carvilius. We have the interregges, who came up in the previous year. They’re listed for this year as well, Marcus Furius Camillus, Publius Cornelius Scipio and Lucius Valerius Potitus. And then we get into our legates, slash ambassadors.

Dr Rad 10:25
Oh, the troublemakers. I like to call them Dr, G

Dr G 10:31
and well, listeners, if names are confusing for you, you’re in the right spot, because we’re these guys are clearly all related, and it appears that they must all be brothers from the names, the patterns of the names, we’ve got Quintus Fabius Ambustus. He is the son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. You’re like, okay, then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus, son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. Then we have Numerus Fabius Ambustus, son of Marcus, grandson of Quintus. So these three all related, all Fabian fabulous all from fabulous Fabians, all from the Ambustii sub branch of the family. So I guess we’ll see what happens there. Absolutely

Dr Rad 11:27
it’s going to be an interesting ride with these three Dr G if they really did what they are accused of. But I mustn’t get ahead of myself. Are you ready to dive into 391?

Dr G 11:41
Yes. Ma’am. All right.

Dr Rad 11:43
So it was on a sunny summer’s day in July, the first day of July, in fact, when our new military tribunes, with consular power, took over after that dreadful time of plague. Dr G now, lest we forget, the Romans had made a declaration of war from their sick beds, and now that they were feeling friskier, it’s time to fulfill on that promise.

Dr G 12:13
Yes, wow. We wouldn’t want the gods to be disturbed, would we?

Dr Rad 12:17
We most certainly would not, and so it’s just as well we have so many military tribunes with consular power because they can be split up into pairs and sent off to conquer some people. We have Lucretius and Aemilius being placed in charge of the war with Volsinii, one of the fabled Etruscan 12 Cities much further north than the Romans usually venture, but they started it, and then we have Sulpicius and Furius being placed in charge of the war with the city that we’re presuming is not that far away from the Volsinii. The Sappinates, I’m going to call them, they decide to deal with Volsinii first, as it is a bigger place, as you might imagine, given that we actually know where this place was once upon a time, but again, bit of a snooze as far as military campaigns go. Dr, G, I don’t know what is going on with these enemies of Rome, but apparently, once the Romans launch their attack, the Volsinii, their line just breaks apart pretty much straight away. The Romans use their cavalry to cut them off, and the Volsinii, their cavalry, wave the little white flag and defeated pretty quickly.

Dr G 13:38
Well, all I can say is that, from the way you’ve described them, they’re far inside Etruscan territory. They’ve been living that soft Etrurian life, surrounded by their buddies, other friends. They haven’t had to prep themselves for war. They haven’t had to defend their city. And now, all of a sudden, these angry little Romans turn up and like

Dr Rad 14:00
exactly giving them a taste of their own medicine after they dared to invade Roman territory whilst the Romans were scratching themselves to death, the smaller city that we don’t really know where it was, the saponates, they saw how things worked out for the larger, presumably more prosperous neighbor city of Volsinii, and they decided, You know what, I don’t think we want to fight the Romans

Dr G 14:29
run away. So

Dr Rad 14:31
they decide, much smarter to hide behind their city walls and just brace themselves for an attack. Shit Quick, get into the cupboard. Now, the Romans are on a high because presumably, you know how you feel after you’ve gotten over a serious illness. You know, they just, they just happy to be outside. Quite frankly, they’re skipping happily around, lootering and plunging. Ring their way through the fields of both the Volsinii and Sappinum, or whatever this place is called. Finally, the people of Volsinii get sick of this and say, You know what, whatever we took from you in the previous year, we’ll give it all back. If you could just stop. All right, you already won the battle. Please, for the love of God, would you just put an end to this once and for all

Dr G 15:28
you see this sheaf of wheat, have it back. Hang

Dr Rad 15:32
on a second. I can give it back to you. I swear. Just give me one second, which actually, I think, gives credence to our theory that a lot of the warfare that is going on in this time period is really just people constantly swapping sandals. Seems like it. They also say that not only will they give back anything that they took in the previous year, they will provide the salaries of the soldiers that the Romans used in this little campaign, because, after all, we are working under the pretense that there is such a thing as military pay at this moment in time. Roman sorts, that sounds like a good deal. Cha Ching and they agree to a 20 year truce, wow. Etruscan rascals,

Dr G 16:19
okay. Well, I mean, how did the Volsinii know that Romans are paying their troops? How do they know?

Dr Rad 16:27
Presumably, whilst they were plundering the Roman fields, they got wind of this amazing innovation of the Romans. Hmm, I’m suspicious. I am grasping at straws here trying to make this

Dr G 16:41
Livy, what are you trying to do to us? He really wants to embed this idea in his narrative. I could see where he’s going. Very clever, Livy.

Dr Rad 16:49
It’s not that it’s impossible that there’s something being provided to the soldiers of Rome, but as you and I have talked about, there are just so many problems with the way that it is presented to us. And look, this isn’t the first time this has happened after all, remember the whole filiscan affair. They also agreed to pay the soldiers, apparently, after Camillus won them over with his sense of honor. It

Dr G 17:13
does seem to be one of the innovations that has emerged in maybe the last 20 years of Roman history, which is that people are like, what if we just pay you to go away and stop fighting us and people like you know what? I agree,

Dr Rad 17:27
yes, and it’s something that will have a long history in many places, not just Rome now. Dr G, this is where your knowledge of Roman religion is going to be counted upon, because back in Rome itself, a portent appears by the name of Marcus Caedicius. What an unfortunate name. He went and told some of the military tribunes with consular power that when he was in the Nova Via or the Nova Via for those that like the sound of a V in the dead of night, he heard a voice. Now, presumably, this voice was very clearly divine, because he said it was even more distinct than a man’s. I’m imagining booming. I’m imagining stereo surround sound. And it told him that he needed to inform the magistrates of Rome that the Gauls were coming. Dun, dun, dun.

Dr G 18:31
Oh no, the Gauls. How would they even who are the Gauls? I’m

Dr Rad 18:37
not going to get into that right this second, but in Livy’s time, there was apparently a small chapel of some kind where this portent took place, presumably to mark the occasion, and it was located just above the Temple of Vesta. Very interesting, I thought that might get your attention. Look, I have a couple

Dr G 19:02
of Vesta things to mention in this episode, but that’s not one of them that’s really interesting. I do have this story as well, related by Plutarch in his Life of Camillus. And again, the guy’s name is the same, Marcus Caedicius, and he hears this voice, and he doesn’t see the person, but it seems louder than a man’s.

Dr Rad 19:28
It’s not a person, it’s a god. I made it very clear.

Dr G 19:35
Tell the magistrates that they must expect the goals. He goes to the tribunes, apparently, and tells them, and they laugh at him.

Dr Rad 19:43
No, that’s exactly what Livy says, things that the magistrates couldn’t have cared less, and, oh, so shameful. Dr, G, but it’s all because of his social class. They’re like, You disgusting, stinky pleb. We’re not going to pay attention to anything you say laughable. And then. Point out that the gulls are so far away the reference barely know anything about them. Ridiculous. Couldn’t possibly be a concern. Evil laughter, twirling of mustache, stroking of white cats,

Dr G 20:15
yeah, like we’re not going to be worried about the chicken people. They live over the Alps. As far as we’re aware, it’s like a completely different continent,

Dr Rad 20:24
yeah. So they’re very unconcerned, but this was obviously something that was marked later. This is apparently the only time when a voice like this was really heard before something disastrous happened for the Romans. So that’s kind of interesting, I

Dr G 20:40
thought, as an omen, yeah, that’s important. Yeah, I don’t

Dr Rad 20:45
know. I don’t know if it’s the only time in Rome’s history where they heard big, booming surround sound, James Earl Jones, Morgan Freeman style voices talking to them. But certainly, as a warning, you know that something was coming. And so they did, apparently, mark out this site, and it was something set up to the cult of Aius Loquens or Locutius. But I don’t believe that the exact site of this altar has been 100% nailed down. Okay, it is thought that this character of the lowly plebeian who gets laughed at is a later addition. I know you’ll be shocked to hear that,

Dr G 21:29
but in a way, it kind of makes sense. It was like, if we emphasize that this is a portent that is ignored by the Roman the powerful sections of Roman society, then you might then suggest that, well, the gods have realized that putting a message forward through the ears of a plebeian is worth nobody’s time, because the Romans don’t get the message because they just laugh at the guy instead,

Dr Rad 21:54
I know, and I love the fact that they set up This little thing to what seems to be a native God, which is the God of the speaking voice, basically.

Dr G 22:11
Well, I think that’s cool. I mean, the Romans do like things like that. They’re like, we’re not sure to who to attribute this to, yeah. And thus, it must be a new god that we’re not aware of.

Dr Rad 22:21
Yeah. Now look, Dr G, this is just the first of many times that we start to see why the Romans are about to face a terrible year in 390 BCE. And the overarching thing that unites all of these little incidents is that the Romans are brought down by their own arrogance. I mean, who could have seen that coming? I think, I think you and I have spent a long time focusing on this very quality of the room.

Dr G 22:49
Look, I’d like to say I’m shocked, but I can’t even summon up shock.

Dr Rad 22:56
Yeah, now I tell you what you are going to be shocked by, and that is the brevity of the next part of my account. The magistrates obviously have foolishly decided that they’re going to ignore what is very obviously a message from the gods. And then, to make it even worse, in Livy’s vision of things, not only do they turn against divine aid, they turn against the only human in Rome who could possibly have helped them in their time of need. That’s right. I’m talking about Marcus, Furius

Dr G 23:31
Camillus. Oh, Camillus, that guy, yeah, the old Golden Bowl Stuff up, man. Oh,

Dr Rad 23:41
yeah, that’s right. Camillus is going through a tough time in 391 BCE, Dr g1, of his young sons had suddenly and unexpectedly died, perhaps scratched himself to death.

Dr G 23:54
It’s quite possible. Yeah, we certainly don’t, well, at least my sources don’t provide the exact detail of what led to the death of the child, but given that we’re in a situation contextually, which is like high levels of pestilence and disease, seems likely that the young and vulnerable would possibly be targeted and die.

Dr Rad 24:13
Look, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say most likely plague. So Camillus is licking his wounds, dealing with his grief. It’s not a great year for him. Unfortunately, it’s exactly this moment that his enemies decide they’re going to pounce. Camillus is a hero to the Romans, but as we have seen, it’s not been all smooth sailing, and he’s certainly ruffled some feathers along the way, mostly plebeian feathers. Dr G now he seriously annoyed the plebeians because he was firmly against the idea of splitting Rome in two and sending half of the population to they. That didn’t go down well, because a lot of the plebs were in favor of that. Particularly some of the tribunes of the plebs, they were definitely down for that. And he also did not win any friends with that whole Oh, hey, I forgot to tell you about this crazy promise that I made after you all got your cut of the spoils of a turns out, I’m gonna need some of that back. Whoops. Whatever went on with that whole thing. Camillus Glory has been somewhat tainted in the eyes of some of his fellow Romans. So this is where the tribune of the plebs enters the story Lucius apollous. He indicts Camillus over the way he handled the spoils of Veii. Now Livy really does not give me many details, and this is the shocking part. This is going to be all about the trial of Camillus and how at least his exile, and Livy handles it in just a couple of sentences. Oh, boy. I know you would think this would be a huge set piece in Livy’s account, but I mentioned this to you before. He’s trying to build up a bigger picture here. He wants symmetry in what he’s dealing with here, and in order to achieve that symmetry, he just doesn’t have the time or the inclination to talk much about this episode, so I don’t get much detail. But what seems to be clear by piecing together multiple sources is that Camillus is essentially being accused, perhaps of it might have been something like maybe he didn’t pay his fair share of the tithe, maybe. But it seems far more likely that he’s being accused of something akin to sort of embezzling, like mishandling some of the booty, something along those lines, and the evidence it’s right there in plain sight. Dr G, two huge bronze doors freshly installed on his house the brazenness of this man. Now you might say, Well, surely the whole idea of taking stuff from vase that you can put it to some use. If you stole two huge bronze knockers, why not have them front and

Dr G 27:06
center? Well, exactly,

Dr Rad 27:09
but look, this is to maybe be some of the evidence that they’re pointing to. And so Camillus calls together his consillium, so group of friends that he trusts and family members and wants to hear their take on what is going on, because obviously he is going to have to go through a trial. He’s not really in the mood, the mindset, and he wants their advice. He doesn’t perhaps hear what he was expecting to for a man with such a career behind him, because particularly, some of his clients who are plebeians say, Look, man, you’re going down. It doesn’t matter whether you’re guilty or not guilty, you are going down. We can’t really say that we’re actually going to be voting to acquit you, because that would be career suicide. All we can say is that you’ll probably get a slap on the wrist and a fine, and we’ll help you to pay the fine, but we’re still going to vote you guilty. It’s going down, and Camillus decides that he should therefore just go into exile before the trial could take place. But before he leaves, he makes a very important vow to the gods. Again, he hasn’t learned his lesson at all. Dr G, he just keeps talking to them. No. He says to the gods, please, if you know that I am truly innocent, then make sure that my fellow Romans will regret bitterly that they have driven me away and that they will want me to come home soon. And with that, he’s off into the sunset, and in his absence, he is found guilty and fined 15,000 asses whilst he’s in exile.

Dr G 29:00
Goodness me, Camillus. He’s a controversial character in some respects, I think, because he does demonstrate military prowess all the time, and yet his relationship with the people of Rome is tumultuous, and it’s positioned this way in all of our source material and this story about how Camillus gets into exile crops up in just about anybody. Who’s anybody. This is why I have such a long list of sources. They’re all giving a certain version of this tale. Yes, so Valerius Maximus positions this story in a section which he is entitled On in gratitude.

Dr Rad 29:42
Delightful. Subtle hint,

Dr G 29:45
no, no, just, uh, there’s an agenda here, just letting you know. And in this account, Camillus is accused by Apollo’s, the tribune of the plebs, of embezzling spoils and. Not just that, but there isn’t a complaint made that there are 15,000 asses missing from the state treasury.

Dr Rad 30:10
Ooh, extra detail,

Dr G 30:15
the detail about him having lost a son, is here in this particular version, this idea that Rome and Camillus are laden with calamities right now, and that he’s condemned and sent into exile, that’s the substance of Valerius Maximus. But this idea is not he doesn’t mention anything about these fancy bronze doors. He talks about embezzlement specifically, and that there’s missing funds from the Treasury, and Camillus is found to be wanting in this

Dr Rad 30:44
particular case, and this is why the quaestors are involved. It may

Dr G 30:49
be possible there are different versions of this story, and in some cases, it’s the Quaestor that brings the accusation. So then we get into Plutarch’s Life of Camillus. Obviously, Plutarch sees Camillus as heroic enough to deserve a life in the parallel lives. So he’s seen, in some ways, as a moral exemplar. So that’s important. So a lot of the framing of the things that go badly for Camillus are going to be lessons about how to do things better. He gets denounced to the citizens as a hater of the common people, sounds very much like a tribune of the plebs move and begrudging to the poor and the enjoyment of their rightful booty. So they have that situation in the background of this accusation being brought by apalaisus. Again, the charge is theft of Etruscan goods, and here the bronze doors do make a reappearance. The bronze doors belonging to the booty had been seen at his house, not necessarily the front doors, but maybe he was keeping them inside. Look,

Dr Rad 31:52
I may have got caught up in my description.

Dr G 31:57
You see those doors over there? I’m going to do some improvements later. And he does get together with his friends to discuss the case, and they say we’re not going to be able to help you with this. So everybody seems to be convinced that he’s going down. Whether he’s actually guilty or not. Is another matter entirely. Hey, if the bronze doors fit, yeah. And they’re like, we got the bronze doors in your house, man, what are you going to do? They say, though, that if he is punished with a fine, they’d help pay it. And that seems like a pretty generous offer, but it’s the sort of thing that makes Camillus really mad, because that means that people don’t believe him enough to defend him against these charges. They’re just willing to help him out with the inevitable fine.

Dr Rad 32:40
He’s got bronze doors in his house. He doesn’t need help with a fine. He needs faithful friends

Dr G 32:45
Exactly. He’s like, Well, that’s not good enough. And it’s like, that’s not loyalty. You’re not on my side. You’re just gonna help me out when I get the fine, what does that say about you? You don’t believe my side of the story. I found the bronze doors. They were on the side of the road. It

Dr Rad 33:02
was a council cleanup. I swear

Dr G 33:05
I got them off the back of the truck. What are you talking about?

Dr Rad 33:07
Facebook, marketplace. I mean, everything’s

Dr G 33:09
just too cheap on there. Exactly what was I supposed to do? It was a bargain. So he can’t endure this, and he’s determined to just depart the city and willfully goes into exile. So there’s some stories say that he gets charged and he has to go into exile. Others suggest that he leaves before this trial takes place. So he’s preemptively engaging with the whole situation. And Plutarch also gives us this detail about the prayer to the gods. I’m just like Camillus, my buddy.

Dr Rad 33:42
I know. Stop it. Just stop talking to them. Talk to somebody else. Talk to your stuffed teddy bear. How

Dr G 33:47
did this work out for you last time? Man, not well, not well. You got into trouble with Apollo. You had to do the whole gold bold debacle. You sent a ship around Italy. It didn’t go well. There were pirates, and you’re telling me you’re going to pray to the gods again, all right, like get a wife. Well, I figure you must have one children, but you know, the guy can’t take a hint. So it’s like he might be a great military general. But is he clever? No, he is not. He prays to the gods that, if with no justice, but through the wantonness of the people and the abuse of the envious. He was now being driven from his country, the Romans might speedily repent and show to all men that they needed and longed for. Camillus

Dr Rad 34:34
got the ego on this guy. You’re

Dr G 34:36
gonna want me. You’re gonna need me. You’re gonna ask me back.

Dr Rad 34:42
What you to want me

Dr G 34:46
exactly. And then, to top it all off, Plutarch then begins the next paragraph with after he had, thus, like Achilles, invoked curses upon his fellow citizens, he removed himself from the city.

Dr Rad 34:59
That’s quite an accusation, because Achilles is a very emotional, messed up guy who really screws up everybody’s plans with his mopiness.

Dr G 35:14
You can see where it might be going. But look, I also

Dr Rad 35:17
see this as a convenient, excellent stage left, because what all of this means is that Camillus is conveniently not around when disaster strikes. Now you might say, well, actually, Dr Rad, that seems inconvenient. No, he is a hero, and it’s convenient that he is not around when the disaster first strikes, and then he might just get to, oh, I don’t know, swoop in and save the day. We’ll have to see.

Dr G 35:46
Well, yes, exactly. So this is the kind of thing where Cicero’s positioning of this situation is a handy way to get a lens on how Romans might be thinking about this kind of thing, because he brings up some great characters in the same breath, Kaeso Quinctius, Marcus Furius Camillus and Marcus Servilius Ahala. And we’ve had Ahala come across our table before. Oh, and Kaeso, yeah, guys who go out of their way to do things which are exceptional outside of the bounds of the expected, but ultimately benefit the Roman people. But the Roman people can’t see it for what it is and get annoyed at them. So it’s like the Roman population is condemning the means by which great men achieve great things and punish them for not doing it in the proper way when greatness required moving outside of the rule set. And this is kind of the way that Cicero sees it, because obviously he’s talking about himself in a classic Ciceronian fashion.

Dr Rad 36:55
Camillus Cicero exactly the same, because

Dr G 36:59
he ultimately is bringing up Camillus to talk about the way that he had to leave Rome without any sentence being placed upon him. He had to go into a voluntary exile to be restored honorably later on, because people realized that he would done the right thing. And this is obviously a reference back to everything to do with the whole conspiracy that Cicero was a part of bringing down in his view. So Camillus is one of these figures that gets positioned as a hero out of the patrician tradition.

Dr Rad 37:36
Absolutely yes, and there’s a lot of details around this account which are questioned in modern times, the fine, the size of the fine, whether there was indeed a trial of this nature. It’s all a bit questionable. However, it does seem likely that maybe Camillus wasn’t in Rome after a certain point in 391 BCE, or thereabouts, because, as we’ve talked about, Roman dating is a little skewff,

Dr G 38:03
well, it’s also the situation where, depending on the sort of angle that you take with the scholarship, there is the argument that Camillus is not a real figure. This is true. A lot of this story is completely made up.

Dr Rad 38:17
I wasn’t gonna go down that path after G

Dr G 38:19
today, or that there is an amalgamation of a variety of people into this singular story. To give it more potency,

Dr Rad 38:28
absolutely, many Furii, many, many. What do you get when you combine many Furii? I

Dr G 38:35
So, as an additional detail, so we’ve got the idea of Spurius Carvilius. This quaestor comes up. Yeah. Now this is a very late source, so it can probably be dismissed as not quite as on the money as maybe some of the other stories. But Pliny the Elder in his Natural History talks about Carvilius, the quaestor, bringing the charges against Camillus, the accusation being about the doors in his house. But while I was reading that small paragraph, because this whole book, 34 of the natural history, is about metals,

Dr Rad 39:11
oh, I was gonna say it’s about doors, I was trying to think what the theme could be. It’s about metals. Of course, it’s

Dr G 39:16
about and a mere two sentences above that completely irrelevant to what we’re talking about, but I’m going to mention it anyway, because it involves the Temple of Vesta. Ah, so one of the things that said is that the Temple of Vesta should be covered with a coating of Syracusan metal.

Dr Rad 39:34
What does that mean? I don’t know what that means. Don’t know what

Dr G 39:37
that means. I’m not sure what metals do the Syracuse

Dr Rad 39:41
have? I wouldn’t know where to even start, and where did this

Dr G 39:45
ordinance come from, and when was it applied. And does that mean that the temple was shiny on the outside? Because that’s incredible. I’m living for that dream. Let us reconstruct the temple with a shiny exterior that bore. Finds people in the summertime.

Dr Rad 40:03
In the summertime. Ah, my eyes. All right, awesome. Okay, are we ready to advance with our tail?

Dr G 40:11
Are we ready to advance with our tale? I mean, that is a great question. I mean, I don’t think I have too many more things from this year. It’s more variations on the same detail. So if you’ve got other things on this year is probably a good time to move to them, because I’m willing to learn.

Dr Rad 40:25
Okay, well, let’s throw ourselves back into the histrionic way that Livy is positioning Camillus departure. Camillus is gone, and he was the only man who could have possibly prevented the capture of Rome, which is going to happen in 390 BCE, that’s right. Another spoiler. It’s really hard to tell the story of the preceding years without constantly giving away what’s going to happen in 390 BCE, yet more signs that trouble is a brewing, envoys arrive from Clusium. Ah, yes, Clusium, that’s right. Clusium is in the Etrurian regions of Italy, and they are wanting help because they have encountered the Gauls, Dr G

Dr G 41:14
horrifying. What are the Gauls doing in Etruria? Okay, well,

Dr Rad 41:18
this is where I’m going to tell you a little bit about the Gauls. It’s actually occurred to me that this would be a good special episode for us. Episode for us, actually, because I do not know that much about the Gauls, apart from the fact that they are going to be running afoul of the Romans For hundreds of years, and it’s not going to end well for them, although they do put up a amazingly good fight against the

Dr G 41:42
Romans. The girls,

Dr Rad 41:43
this is a very generic term. Sometimes you will also see reference to the Celts, as well as a particular brand of these people. To be honest, we wish we knew more about who these people that lived over the Alps really were. So as we can tell, they were a more loosely organized peoples than the Romans, but they are widely spread out, so that is really no shock. I mean, again, if you look at the amount of territory Rome actually occupies at this moment in time, teeny tiny compared to the areas that these people are going to conquer and take over, but tribes do seem to be the way that they mostly organize themselves. Most of what we know about them at this moment in time comes from the people that they are fighting against, and this is part of our problem. We are constantly going to be battling the racism that tinges Greek and Roman accounts of what these people are up to, how their society is organized, all of that kind of stuff. But what does seem to make sense is that there is some contact between them and other peoples through trade that seems legitimate, and that the dominant peoples in a Celtic slash Gallic society would be a warrior elite. Hmm,

Dr G 43:09
you know, I have some details about why the Gauls are in Italy. If you, if you’re interested,

Dr Rad 43:14
by all means, please. So

Dr G 43:17
Dionysus of Halicarnassus re enters the narrative. Nice to see you. Dionysius, I’m glad to be here. So it all starts, apparently, and I’m pretty sure this is a tall tale, but I like it, so I’m going to retell it anyway, so you can laugh along with me. Lucumo is a prince of the Etruscans.

Dr Rad 43:38
Ah, yes, I know this story, but please continue.

Dr G 43:42
He has a loyal man called Arruns who is acting as a guardian for his son. And Arruns looks after Lucumo’s son, even when Lucumo passes away, raises this child to power. You would think the child would be grateful. The child is not grateful. The child is a little

Dr Rad 44:02
power player. The theme is ingratitude. Dr G, the theme is ingratitude.

Dr G 44:06
It certainly is. And as this kid grows up, he clamps eyes on Arrun’s young, beautiful wife, and decides he wants her for his own. Arruns is pretty unhappy with that situation. And not only does he believe that his wife has been corrupted, but he has seen this young man talking to his wife in public, which means she is definitely not chased anymore. It is impossible, if you’ve had a public conversation with a man, you must have also slept with him. That’s the only

Dr Rad 44:41
explanation. That’s what I tell my stepdaughter.

Dr G 44:45
Never talk to a man in public unless you’ve already slept with him. Everybody will assume that you have. So I mean the Romans and their ideas, and also the Etruscans and their ideas. Yeah. So anyway, Arruns gets his dander up about this, and. And he’s deciding that he’s gonna leave Etruria, it’s gonna pack up his wagon and he’s gonna go. So he takes everything that is needful for an important and long trip. He packs Lots of wine, lots of olive oil and many baskets of figs, and packs it all up in his wagons, and he heads out of Italy all the way to Gaul and that is where he met the Gaulish people. And, you know, they’re, they’re kind of like, what’s in those wagons, buddy? And he’s like, Oh, sit down. Hear my sorry tale. Have a beverage. Have some figs, have some wine. Brought the popcorn. girl and The Gaulish people are flabbergasted. Their taste buds are exploding in this moment. They cannot believe it. They’ve been flavoring their food with rancid lard

Dr Rad 45:55
all this time, and now they’re tasting the rainbow,

Dr G 45:58
and now they’re like, olive oil. They’ve also been drinking bitter barley fermented beer, like the low of the low, and now they’re tasting this delicious Italian wine. And they’re like, oh my god, it’s it’s incredible. I just don’t even know what to do with myself. And this fresh fruit, these figs, they’re amazing. They’re like, where did you get this stuff? And Arruns is like, well, I have great news for you. It’s from Etruria. It’s actually not that far away, really. Yeah, we’re pretty close. And I can tell you that these people don’t know how to defend themselves for shit. They are. They are lazy, sitting around making wine, kind of people, and you could just walk right in there and take your share. And you know what the Gauls say we’re

Dr Rad 46:48
in? Yeah, absolutely. Although it seems a bit harsh to the horse here, trust guns, they seem pretty dominant for quite some time.

Dr G 46:54
Arruns doesn’t think so, and his heart has been broken, so he does not care. Is he telling the whole truth to the Gaulish people? Maybe not. Is he worried about the outcome? Probably not. But we do have our first example in all of recorded history of the French now being jealous of the Italians and wanting what the Italians have for themselves. And this is going to set up a narrative that will last 1000s and 1000s of

Dr Rad 47:23
years. Wow. Well, Livy actually does mention that story as well. However, he does cast a little bit of doubt on it by saying, Look, I’m not gonna contradict the story, which to me, kind of indicates that he’s thought about it and thought Is this realistic? I don’t know. He says that it’s generally agreed. And I’m quoting my translation there that the Gauls who attack clusium were not the first Gauls to cross over the Alps. And I’m kind of like, well, duh, Livy, because there’s a lot of questions in this story. First of all, Clusium. Clusium, of all places. Dr G, it would seem that perhaps this particular location might have been decided upon, because later on, the Romans and Clusium, they’ll have some affairs. But right now, it’s quite far away. Does it make sense as a place for the Gauls to be attacking? We can’t be certain. There is certainly zero archeological evidence to support contact between the Gauls and Clusium, of all places,

Dr G 48:37
and also the idea that the Romans have an alliance with Clusium, which is one of the other pieces of information that’s bandied about. And it’s like the Romans haven’t ventured this far north. They would have had to skip over a whole bunch of Etruscan places in order to get to Clusium. To be like, let’s be friends, and for the Clusians to agree and be like, Sure,

Dr Rad 48:56
exactly yes. Not a lot of this makes sense. You Latins

Dr G 48:59
from a little backwater. Why not? What we can

Dr Rad 49:02
say is that gold slash Celts, whatever you want to call them Celts, even they probably were migrating because they were after the usual stuff, land, well, and stuff, really. And by stuff, I mean, sandals, really, resources, animals, fruits, wine, whatever is going and it could be because they need more space. Maybe they’ve had a bit of a population boom. Perhaps, we’re not really sure, but there are waves, it would seem, of tribes, sort of coming over, and gradually they’re setting themselves up in the sort of northeast of Italy, sort of Po Valley area. And this would be something that would be interesting to Livy, because, lest we forget, he is from Padua, which is in Cisalpine Gaul. Yes, exactly. Look at him go. And this is one of my funnest little things true. Remember about Latin because we know I don’t understand Latin, but CIS Alpine Gaul literally means Gaul this side of the Alps, as opposed to trans Alpine Gaul, Gaul that side.

Dr G 50:12
Yes. Never listen to people who tell you that cis and trans have not been in use for 1000s of years, because they have

Dr Rad 50:18
Yes exactly. Yes, exactly. So we do have these waves of migration happening. And as you can imagine, that does lead to conflict between the people that are there and some of the people that are there are Etruscans. We do have some archeological evidence showing the conflict between Etruscans and Celts there are apparently, and I’m quoting my source here, which is Gary Forsythe’s book, horseshoe shaped sandstone tombstones from the Etruscan community of Felsina, dating to the early fourth century BCE, where you may See a noble Etruscan warrior on horseback doing battle with a nude Celtic dude on foot. Well, there you go. So this is going, we’re going to see increasing influence. And I actually did not know this. I can’t believe I didn’t know this. But a lot of the police names in this part of Italy actually come from the Celtic tribes and whatnot that set themselves up here, like bologna. I did not know that. I should have known that, but I didn’t.

Dr G 51:28
Oh, look, yep, the north of Italy. It is different from other spots of Italy. Yeah, there’s different influences going on

Dr Rad 51:36
now, as you might imagine, here in lies our difficulty, right? Because we have almost nothing from the Etruscans in terms of their writing. Most of what we have that sort of tells their history is, in fact, archeological their writing doesn’t really tell, like narrative histories, and it’s very, very limited, and so we don’t get much. And then, of course, the other people, they’re going to come into contact with the Greeks and the Romans, as I mentioned before, and they don’t necessarily have the understanding necessary, particularly at this early time, to understand all the subtle nuances between these different Celtic groups of people and tribes that they might be encountering. They do get to know some of the names of these different groups and that sort of thing. But as for giving us, you know, a nuanced portrayal of who these people are, I’m afraid we just don’t have it. Dr, G, oh, sorry. I know, I know we might be wondering, because Livy actually does something interesting here. He actually gives quite a lot of detail, though, about the history of the contact and where these people are coming from. And I have to say it’s unlike anything I have read in Livy so far. It actually does remind you a lot of the kind of stuff that Herodotus does, and that might be what he’s imitating here.

Dr G 52:47
Interesting. He’s getting into a bit of an ethnography. Is he

Dr Rad 52:51
a little bit? Yeah, he goes on this little disc like he doesn’t often do that, like he might go into a bit of a backstory, but as you know, Livy’s not always one for detail. He sometimes skims through things very quickly. He talks about the fact that, from his point of view, of view, from his sources, what other sources? Not really sure. We think they might be Greek, not really convinced. Apparently, there are a couple of potentials, like maybe some of our is writing and a person called Timagenes, but we’re not really sure. Seemingly, he actually was probably using more Greek sources than vara. But anyway, he says that 200 years passed between the initial crossing of the Gauls into, you know, the north of Italy, and their attack on Clusium, which is happening right now in this very year, and that the people from Clusium, the Clusinii, which sounds a bit like fangirls of George Clooney, were not the first Etruscans who had had to fight the Gauls, that there had been lots of conflict going on between the people of this region. And this is where we get some of the classic racist style remarks, I suppose, from Livy. He talks about certain tribes having, you know, incredible savagery. And we’re going to see constant references to the the temper of these particular people. What we think is actually happening is that these groups that are migrating into Italy probably coming via Switzerland and maybe South Germany, and not actually possibly Gaul itself. Now, one of the stories that Livy relates is that during the reign of Tarquinius Priscus, the Celts, one of three divisions of the Gaulish people, were being ruled by another tribe. And I’m going to butcher this pronunciation, I apologize, the Bituriges, the Bituriges, Bituriges are the better. Yeah, the Bituriges, the Bituriges, perhaps the Bituriges. And it’s from this tribe that a king was given to the Celts. This man’s name was Ambigatus, Ambigatus, very ambiguous of him. I know, I know he was. A man of considerable talent, but also had a lot of good luck, which meant that he became quite a distinguished leader, and the Gauls became extremely prosperous under his rule. They had just so much corn and so many babies being born. I mean, they were Scrooge McDucking themselves all over the place. They were just diving into their pits of money.

Dr G 55:26
It’s a tough life, but someone’s gotta live it.

Dr Rad 55:29
As Ambigutas becomes old, he didn’t want to see his kingdom remain so large, because that would be crazy. It’s too much prosperity. Gotta dish it out a little bit. So instead, he decided to send his nephews via his sister, Bellovesus and Segovesus. They’re the names I’m going for. I apologize for my pronunciation on a quest to find new homes which could be given to them by the gods and oh boy. Oh boy. Dr G, these nephews were up for the task. Now, the king assures his nephews that they’re going to be taking a large number of followers with them, so that no one’s going to be able to stand in their way. Now, this sounds kind of crazy. On what planet have you ever heard of someone being like, we’re just too prosperous. We’re going to share this prosperity around in this manner. It sounds

Dr G 56:24
like somebody having some difficulties with some nephews and being like, you know what? I’m going to arm them up and send them in opposite directions, and then they’re going to leave me alone,

Dr Rad 56:33
possibly, or it’s just a really weird explanation for the fact that, actually they need more land, they need more territory, and they need to conquer it. So they’re given various areas where they’re going to like, this is divvied up by lot like where they’re going to go. And it is Segovesus, who is assigned the Hercynian Highlands, which is the upland districts of South Germany, including places now known as like the Black Forest, Bohemia and so on, and Bellovesus, he is directed by the gods straight into Italy. Now he is leading extra members from the tribes, the Bituriges, the Arverni, the Senones, the Haidui, the Ambarri, the Carnutes and the Aulerci. I’m sure I just mispronounced a whole lot of Celtic names there. And they have a mixture of infantry and cavalry with them. And they, of course, then have to come across the difficulty of how they’re going to get across the Alps,

Dr G 57:42
I’d recommend elephants

Dr Rad 57:46
the little bit before that time, and I don’t think they’ve packed any elephants, unfortunately, so they have some difficulties. They’re a bit hesitant. They’re kind of intimidated by the sight of the Alps. And I do understand where they’re coming from. The Alps are pretty big, so it’s superstition that apparently makes them pause at this point in time the exact details of their crossing. I’m not even going to go into it, because, again, it seems like Livy probably has got it wrong in terms of what was possible, etc, etc, at this point in time. But once we have these guys across the Alps, because they do indeed make it across. They are soon followed by other goals, who start setting themselves up in various places in the north of Italy. So it’s a waterfall. Dr, G, it’s just being unleashed.

Dr G 58:32
Yeah, they found a path, and then they told everybody about it, and now everybody’s on the other side of the mountains.

Dr Rad 58:39
Yep, exactly. We’re told that it’s the Senones who seem to be the last to migrate, and the reason why I’m mentioning them is that Livy thinks it’s people from this tribe that went to Clusium and then eventually will go on to Rome. Spoilers. Again, you

Dr Rad 59:20
so the men of Clusium rock up to Rome because they’re completely freaked out by this attack by the presumably Senones group of the Celts slash Gauls. And it’s not just because it’s an attack, it’s also because they’re really strange people with crazy weapons that the people of colus have apparently never seen, even though they’re kind of in this area of Italy and the goals have been there for a while. I think so I question this Dr G, but let’s just move on with our narrative. You

Dr G 59:53
say move on, but I’m not sure that I can. What kind of weapons do these people have that they’ve never seen before?

Dr Rad 59:59
Oh, they just seem strange. I mean, I think we can definitely question Livy’s narrative here, because if the Gauls have been migrating for like, the last 100 years or so, would there be weapons that the people of clusium Haven’t seen? Are the Celtic weapons even that different from the kinds of weapons that the Romans would use. These are all legitimate questions. Dr G, I’ve never

Dr G 1:00:23
seen that handle before. Barbarians.

Dr Rad 1:00:27
You call that a knife. Why? Exactly, yeah. So there’s much talk about the disruption that is happening in this part of Italy at this point in time. And you might be wondering. Dr G, why on earth would the people of clusium turn to Rome of all people for help in their time of need? Because there is no alliance between any people in Etruria and the Romans at this moment in time. About the only thing that the men of clusium have to recommend themselves is the fact that they did not side with they during Rome’s recent war with they.

Dr G 1:01:07
Look that doesn’t score them big points, surely. Well,

Dr Rad 1:01:11
nobody did. Nobody did. That was kind of the point, wasn’t it? But anyway, now they’re seeking help from the Roman Senate. Roman Senate don’t want to rush into anything here, for exactly that reason. There is no formal Alliance here. They don’t really see why they should be helping the people of Clusium, per se, Clusium is very far to the north, after all, however, they do agree to offer a limited kind of assistance, and this is where our ambassadors come in. Dr G the three sons of Marcus Fabius Ambustus, are dispatched as ambassadors to Gaul and tell them off Officially

Dr G 1:01:54
in the name of Rome. Oh, yes. Well, there’s nothing like an official Roman telling off is there. And who better than the fabulous Fabii.

Dr Rad 1:02:01
precisely they’re going to dazzle the Celts with their fabulousness. So when they arrive, they say, How dare you pick on friends of Rome, particularly this group of people in Clusium who have done nothing to provoke you. Celtish people, the Romans do not want war. Dr G, this is what they tell the senes. Well,

Dr G 1:02:26
that’s a change of offense, isn’t it? Somebody should interrogate this more closely. I think

Dr Rad 1:02:31
it’s more they don’t want war with this particular group of people because they don’t even know who they are.

Dr G 1:02:37
Yes, it’s always better to go to war with your friends, people that you know

Dr Rad 1:02:41
precisely. They say, look, you’re strangers to us. We don’t know much about you. We would rather be on friendly terms with you, Gauls slash Celts slash Senones. And even though the response to this would kind of make sense sitting in 391 I would like to leave it on a bit of a cliffhanger there. Dr, G, but yes, this is, this is what we’ve got. We’ve got Romans talking to the Celts at this moment on behalf of their kind of friends, not friends, frenemies from Clusium. And I’m going to get into exactly how this exchange plays out. I think next time?

Dr G 1:03:20
Oh, oh, well, I look forward to finding out what happens next.

Dr Rad 1:03:26
One thing I can say is that Livy is probably relying on a source that relied on Fabius Pictor.

Dr G 1:03:35
Oh, okay. Well, that makes things more interesting. No wonder there’s so many baby I involved.

Dr Rad 1:03:42
Well, that’s exactly it. It’s probably the case that a lot of the stuff that we’re dealing with at this point in time, as it has been for quite some time, is drawing on like family histories and family traditions that have been passed down. And if those people go on to be some of the source material that Livy is using, well, some of their relatives get a spotlight thrust upon them.

Dr G 1:04:07
Well, well, well, okay, a point of Tension we have reached you.

Dr G 1:04:41
Meanwhile, in Sicily, I will try to cover this quickly, but there are some pretty fun things that are happening in Sicily at this point in time. According to Diodorus Siculus, he gets three of the names of the military tribunes correct and one of them terribly wrong. Him and two not mentioned at all, but be that as it may, what’s going on with the tyrant of Syracuse, Dionysus. He’s taken his army to Hipponium, which is a colony of the Locrian people. It’s in Calabria, and he’s hanging out there, partly because he is in favor with the locrians. And by in favor of the locrians, he likes them because they agreed to his marriage suggestion. The Rhegians

Dr Rad 1:05:31
refused. Finally, somebody sees sense. They were

Dr G 1:05:34
like, Sure, you can marry one of the nice girls. You’re my favorite people in southern Italy, I’m gonna do things for you. So now, when he starts taking over things, sometimes he gives a bit of the land to the Locrians, being like, you guys, here’s a gift. And they’re like, cheers, thanks. I’m sure that’s making the locrians very popular with all of their neighbors. Meanwhile, the Rhegians and their situation, because that’s made him really angry. He’s still stewing over that. So he decides that what better than to attack them directly? That’s really what needs to happen now. And he builds up to it with a sort of a sneaky, I’m just putting some supplies here. Don’t worry about it. We’re going to be moving on shortly. And the Rhegians, for some reason, are like, okay, it’s a transportation mover. That’s fine.

Dr Rad 1:06:24
Sounds like the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Dr G 1:06:28
I mean, the Rhegians, they should have, maybe they should have realized it gets to the point where so many supplies are building up outside of their city. They’re like, Excuse me, you said you were moving on. He’s like, Well, I’m not moving on. It’s a siege.

Dr Rad 1:06:45
Like, oh no, wow. A surprise siege.

Dr G 1:06:48
Well, yeah, one that they didn’t see coming for a little while. Apparently, even though all the stuff was arrived, I was gonna say another siege engine that’s curious,

Dr Rad 1:06:58
all these weapons, no surprise. What’s going on?

Dr G 1:07:02
Not smart guys. Not

Dr Rad 1:07:04
smart day for another several months. Yeah.

Dr G 1:07:07
What is this? The Trojan War, anyway. So aside from the Rhegian’s silliness in this moment, they decide, once they realize it is a siege and the target is indeed them. They wheel themselves into action. They sign up a guy called Phyton as their general.

Dr Rad 1:07:29
Once again, could be a character in the Marvel Universe. What is going on?

Dr G 1:07:33
I think, I think they got the Greek from these guys, so they went with it. And he’s well organized, and he decides that they’re gonna attack the siege engines. That’s the first plan, and it’s a good plan. They burn a whole bunch of the siege equipment, and this means that they’re fighting outside of the walls, which also means that they’re engaging with the Sicilian Greeks. Dionysus himself gets struck by a lance in the groin. Apparently, it’s more common than you’d think, because we’ve had other characters in history so far this has happened to it’s a weak spot, apparently. Well, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:08:10
I mean, to be fair, what I would say to most people out there, if attacked by a man is kick him in the crutch and run. If I had a lance, I’d probably use that too.

Dr G 1:08:20
Exactly, you know, go for the soft spot, yeah. So he barely escapes death, apparently, and has difficulty recovering from this wound.

Dr Rad 1:08:28
Well, yeah, fair enough. It hurts a lot, a lot of vasectomy. Nevertheless, the siege

Dr G 1:08:35
continues. So, you know, I imagine the case being that Dionysus, the tyrant, is sort of wheeled off to a tent nearby, and is lying there, sort of trying to recover, and is still like continue the siege. So he’s still in charge. He’s still around. The siege continues to happen. Meanwhile, there’s also the Olympic games happening. Of course, it’s a big year, and Dionysus decides to send a team to the Olympic Games. He’s like, I’m Greek. I’m allowed to go. And he’s very keen to have some professional poets recite his poetry. He considers himself a poet. Oh,

Dr Rad 1:09:15
of course he does. Of course he does. He just fits with the whole tyrant modus operandi, doesn’t it to write terrible poetry and force other people to listen to it. The

Dr G 1:09:24
entitlement does not end. He was madly addicted to poetry. So the trouble is that he sends his professional reciters of poetry to the Olympic Games, and people come along to listen because they’re like, Oh, well, you know, let’s see what he’s got to offer. And then they hear the verse them, and the verse is so bad, they start to

Dr Rad 1:09:47
be pleased to hear that actually, you know, I’m actually getting strong vibes from like the Barbie movie, like when they’re all sitting around the fireplace singing Matchbox 20.

Dr G 1:09:56
So people at the Olympic Games are laughing at. Dionysus poetry. It doesn’t matter that it’s being recited by professionals. That’s not enough to cover up the inferior quality of the verse itself. Ouch. Even worse, he has chariot tier teams involved that get involved in crashes so they get eliminated from the competition. So that’s a

Dr Rad 1:10:19
blow that’s fairly common, though, isn’t it? But

Dr G 1:10:23
not only that, other members of the team that get through that whole process, there’s a shipwreck on the way home. So he loses a whole bunch of his Olympic team in the return journey as

Dr Rad 1:10:33
well. Nobody talks about this in the history of the Olympics,

Dr G 1:10:37
exactly. Everyone’s just like, turn up. Do the Olympics win a wreath? Have a good time. We

Dr Rad 1:10:41
talk about Munich, we talk about all this other stuff, but where is the shipwreck of 391, approximately,

Dr G 1:10:48
exactly, exactly the shipwreck. And this, it’s devastating, because not only is Dionysus dealing with the fact that he’s lost a whole bunch of his team in the return journey, but the ones who managed to survive to get home start spreading the stories about his terrible poetry and how it was received, because that’s the story of the Olympics for them. And he catches wind of this, and he’s so annoyed and so frustrated, you can just imagine he’s trying to sit up, but he’s got this groin wound. He’s like, but my art poetry, my soft parts.

Dr Rad 1:11:27
There once was a tyrant from Syracuse, yes, exactly, really, really didn’t like to lose

Dr G 1:11:34
it’s that kind of poetry. You know, he invented the limerick, and nobody appreciated it. So frustrating for him. Anyway, the good news is that he has his advisors who managed to persuade him that he is actually the object of envy, and people are laughing at him because they’re jealous of his

Dr Rad 1:11:58
talent, of course, of course, now. And so the key

Dr G 1:12:03
thing is to not give up and to persist with your art until eventually, that envy transforms into admiration. So his devotion to his writing is not subdued by this devastating Olympic Games. And I imagine, you know, he’s in pain. He’s probably going back to writing his poetry as well. Now, the other small little detail that Diodorus Siculus provides about this year 391 is that the Romans fight a battle at Gurasium. Oh, Gurasium. Yes, I tried to find Gurasium. We don’t know where Gurasium was. It feels like another made up name by Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad 1:12:47
I was going to say, is it because it doesn’t exist? Well,

Dr G 1:12:50
I sometimes wonder whether he’s misreading a source that he’s looking at when it’s written down, or that somebody has told him a piece of information and he’s tried to remember it orally, and then misspelled it. And somehow the misspelling has come into it, because he says it’s with the Volscians, and that would not be out of keeping with where the Romans are at right now. Sure, like the Volscians are far closer than the Etruscans in the north or, yeah, and even the Aequii things like that, the Volsinii and they he says that the Romans slew a great number of the enemy, which is also the kind of thing that’s relatively believable for the Romans in this time period. It

Dr Rad 1:13:33
is. But Dr G, this is not where I’m at in my narrative. My narrative is telling me that the Romans are being given sign after sign, and they keep really ticking off the gods in return. Well,

Dr G 1:13:44
but I mean, the good news is that we’ve got six military tribunes for consular power this year, and one of them could be going against the Volscians.

Dr Rad 1:13:52
That’s true. Not all of them have been given a specific campaign,

Dr G 1:13:57
and that is my detail for 391

Dr Rad 1:14:00
Oh, well. Dr G, I think that means it is time for

Dr G 1:14:04
the partial pick.

Dr Rad 1:14:12
Oh, that was a long episode, Igor. Let’s get into it. What is the partial pick? All About? Dr G, ooh,

Dr G 1:14:19
the partial pick where we rate Rome against her own standards, with a possibility of 50 golden eagles, 10 across five categories. The first category is military clout, huh?

Dr Rad 1:14:34
Well, well, well, well, the

Dr G 1:14:39
Romans fought a battle at Jerusalem. I

Dr Rad 1:14:43
I’m just thinking hard. I’m not really feeling a lot of military clout coming out of this year. It’s really a lot more about the Gaul. There’s a lot of detail about tribes going here and there.

Dr G 1:14:55
Hmm, yeah, Livy got really wave laid by the detail, didn’t he?

Dr Rad 1:14:59
He did. But. We do have the conflict with a Volsinii, we do, and potentially the other place that just hid behind their walls. Don’t mind if I do. Yeah, we do have a little bit of conflict. So I guess maybe, like a three or four again, I don’t know.

Dr G 1:15:21
Look, I think we’ve got even less detail than we had for the previous year. So maybe a three,

Dr Rad 1:15:24
yeah, I’m just looking at my detail again. It really isn’t lot. At least there’s a bit more strategy here. The Romans used their cavalry to cut off their cavalry, and they surrendered, and then the other people were too scared, and then they plundered. There is a bit more detail. Now, you know what, four, because they get the salaries paid for. Oh yeah, that’s a bit fancy, isn’t it? It is a little bit I think they deserve a four for that and a 20 year truce.

Dr G 1:15:51
A 20, well, let’s save that for diplomacy, shall we? No, I

Dr Rad 1:15:54
know, but I just mean, like militarily, it says something. I feel, I feel it. All

Dr G 1:16:00
right? A four, okay, a four. The second category is diplomacy, okay.

Dr Rad 1:16:06
Well, they do agree on a peace settlement, which seemingly makes them like BFFs with the Etruscans all of a sudden, and they do send ambassadors to just talk to the Gauls. It’s probably not entirely true. It seems like the earliest versions of this story had two unnamed ambassadors going to Clusium, and they weren’t going there as ambassadors. They were going there to spy.

Dr G 1:16:52
Well, that sounds almost more likely, but from a diplomatic perspective, sending ambassadors somewhere, that’s diplomacy, getting a truce fixed up. That’s diplomacy,

Dr Rad 1:17:03
yep, yep. All right, so what are we going to give them, like a three, sure. Okay, that’s, that’s our next category, expansion. Not really. They’re traveling, but they’re not expanding.

Dr G 1:17:16
They’re expanding their horizons. They

Dr Rad 1:17:18
are. They are. They’re definitely looking much further north than they ever have before, but their gaze is directed there by others.

Dr G 1:17:27
All right, that’s a zero. Yeah, the fourth category is virtus,

Dr Rad 1:17:33
not particularly, I would say it’s a pretty grim year. Actually got military tribunes laughing in the face of poor little plebeians. You’ve just heard God speak directly to them. Sorry, yeah, a God speak directly to them.

Dr G 1:17:48
I mean, could he just be

Dr Rad 1:17:50
mad? Mad as a hatter, they say.

Dr G 1:17:53
All right, no, virtus. And finally, the citizen score,

Dr Rad 1:17:57
hmm, well, there certainly is a sense of lingering disease in the air that’s not great. We’ve got war with the Volsinii and another place, maybe, but it’s victorious.

Dr G 1:18:08
In both cases, it seems that Rome is posting a victory.

Dr Rad 1:18:11
Yeah. Is that good news? Because they’re still they’re still fighting. They’re still out there in the field

Dr G 1:18:16
well, but they’re also not saying that there’s been substantial losses. So as far as

Dr Rad 1:18:23
battles go, yeah, if anything, they’re indicating the opposite, I would say.

Dr G 1:18:26
So it’s probably as good as it can be for when you’re being very aggressive. It’s actually it’s

Dr Rad 1:18:31
making me realize just how much Livy spends time talking about the Gauls I have almost nothing about what’s actually happening in Rome. It’s all about the Gauls and their various waves of migration.

Dr G 1:18:44
And then these guys came over the Alps, and then these that

Dr Rad 1:18:47
is literally what he does for like he’s seriously invoking Herodotus. There is such a long passage where he talks about and then these guys, and then these guys, and then these guys encounter these guys, and then they take this pass, and they take that pass, and they go over here and they encounter these people. Honestly, I couldn’t keep it all straight

Dr G 1:19:04
on that account, I can say it must be a great time for the Roman citizens, because they’re not getting dragged into anything yet. They’re just sort of hanging around at Rome being like, didn’t know the goals existed.

Dr Rad 1:19:14
That’s pretty much it never loved yet. But the fact that the Etruscans are worried by these people? Hmm, I don’t know.

Dr G 1:19:23
Okay, well, it’s not having a direct impact on Roman citizens, though,

Dr Rad 1:19:27
not yet, but it will fairly dramatically and soon.

Dr G 1:19:32
Well, yes, but like, that’s, that’s a trouble for next

Dr Rad 1:19:36
that’s a 390 Roman problem. Yeah, okay, fair enough. All right, so citizen score. What are we saying? Then? Is it like a five? It like a five? I suppose it’s not too bad, yeah, but there is that playground, maybe a four, and Camillus is gone, which they might be happy about.

Dr G 1:19:51
Look, I think that’s a win. It’s back to a five.

Dr Rad 1:19:55
Actually, that’s true. Is Camillus being gone like a bit of a victory for them?

Dr G 1:19:59
Yeah, I think so that’s definitely what they wanted.

Dr Rad 1:20:02
Well, I mean, some of them, not all of them, all right, so are we going to say five? Okay, all right, in that case, Dr G, it is a total of 12 Golden Eagles for Rome. I don’t know why. I just said it like that, 12 Golden Eagles for Rome.

Dr G 1:20:19
Huzzah. Well, they did better than the year before. Let’s see if they can keep it up,

Dr Rad 1:20:26
that they won’t

Dr G 1:20:28
just be like, let’s be optimistic. People talk about 390 as being a terrible time, but we don’t know yet, because we haven’t

Dr Rad 1:20:35
done it. That’s right. I mean Gaelic sack. That could just mean Santa Claus, a tribal bag of some sort,

Dr G 1:20:43
exactly, yeah, turned up with the Christmas presents Exactly,

Dr Rad 1:20:47
exactly. It’s like the Celtic version of Santa Claus, exactly, all right. Dr, G, well, I look forward to spending, presumably, at least three episodes talking about 390 BC, with you. Oh, I

Dr G 1:21:00
look forward to it.

Dr Rad 1:21:12
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes, Our music is by Betina Joy de coosman, the partial historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive, to find more from the memory collective head to collectivemem.com. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by supporting us on Ko fi or by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to someone who always buys us a coffee on ko fi. Kent Johnson, however, if your pockets are a bit light on the denarii, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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392 BCE, the year that went down in history for “a campaign in no way memorable”. Ah, that Livy, he paints quite a picture, doesn’t he?

The campaign in question involved our consuls for the year. Yep, consuls! The plebeians were still in a blissful mood after receiving some of the land from Veii in the previous year and so they didn’t fight for military tribunes.

The consuls took care of a few domestic matters, such as holding the Great Games promised by Camillus during the siege against Veii and dedicating the temple to Juno (another of Camillus’ promises).

Once the gods had been satisfied, the Romans were off to fight the Aequians at Mount Algidus in the titular “campaign in no way memorable.” Come on Aequians, put up a proper fight! The decisive victory (and possible capture of the city of Liphoecua) earned the consul Valerius a triumph as he slaughtered so many of the fleeing enemy. His colleague, Manlius, was given the lesser honour of an ovation. Guess he didn’t kill as many men who were running away in terror! You can’t reward that kind of behaviour in Ancient Rome.

An image of a triumph from the Arch of Titus. Courtesy of World History Encyclopedia.

War found the Romans again in 392, this time with the Etruscan people of Volsinii and the Sappinates (which we presume was near Volsinii). The Romans could not respond with their typical vigour as they were hit by a horrific plague. Famine and pestilence were rampant in their part of the world, thanks to drought and a heatwave. These are the same environmental crises and disease mentioned by Dionysius of Halicarnassus for the previous year, which goes to show how the dating for this period is a tad confused.

With the Romans too ill to fight, they send angry messages to their new enemies that they will get their revenge… just as soon as they can stop vomiting.

No one was immune from the pestilence. Censors had been elected in 393 BCE, but now one of those elected, Gaius Julius, died in office and was replaced with Marcus Cornelius. Spoiler alert, but we are only a couple of years away from the Gallic sack of Rome. This happened in the same lustrum as events such as the death of Gaius Julius. Livy asserts that the way he was replaced caused issues with the gods, and that the Romans would ensure the partner of deceased stepped down from office and two brand new colleagues would be placed in office in the future. This may not be accurate, but it certainly shows that the Romans were committed to the idea of collegiality.

When the consuls also fell ill, they decided the Romans needed some fresh auspices. It was time for an interregnum! The consuls stepped down from office, and power was shared amongst the interreges until military tribunes with consular power were elected.

We know what you’re thinking – why interreges? This was a position created to deal with the transfer of powers between kings. It’s interesting that the Romans continue to use this position long into the Republic. The last time we saw interreges was only a few years earlier in 396 BCE.  

We do mention a couple of Latin terms in this episode, so here is your handy glossary in case you need it!

Coin of Syracuse (Dionysius I: 405-367 BC) – Head of the Nymph Arethusa between the dolphins; Quadriga and weapons – Naples, Archaeological Museum. Courtesy of Carlo Raso on Flickr.

Consuls

Censors

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Foreign Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad,

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:58
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial of his historians. I am Dr G and I’m Dr Rad, and together we make up the Dream Team.

Dr Rad 1:11
We do indeed Dr G, and we’re here to tell people all about what’s happening happening in ancient Rome in the early fourth century BCE

Dr G 1:21
I know, and it sounds like sounds like it might be old news, but for anybody who’s been paying attention to Roman history, it’s going to be exciting news, fresh, new, innovative, different.

Dr Rad 1:33
Indeed, it shall now. Rome has been going through very exciting times recently. Dr, G, I mean, the conquest of Veii still reverberates through every year that we have been discussing,

Dr G 1:45
and I think that will happen for quite some time. To be honest, the ramifications of Rome’s defeat of they are extensive and ongoing, and maybe not in ways that the Romans necessarily are going to enjoy, as we’re about to find out.

Dr Rad 2:02
This is true. This is true, but the last time we have been discussing this, there’s been some division within the Roman population over what to do with this brand spanking new city for them, obviously not in the scheme of the world city of they, because it’s a pretty substantial conquest, and they haven’t always agreed what they’re going to do with it.

Dr G 2:26
Yes, they have not thought ahead. I don’t know if they anticipated that they were going to win ultimately,

Dr Rad 2:33
but it does say about their confidence.

Dr G 2:36
But if they had, they haven’t really considered what they’re going to utilize the land that they’ve gained for, or necessarily what they’re going to do with what appears to be the ruins of a so it still seems to be perfectly serviceable as somewhere to live. And some of the Romans, particularly from the plebeians as we understand it, are quite interested in maybe making a small shift slightly north of the Tiber to take in the scenery of Veii and to start afresh, a new life with a little bit more land and space, maybe get away from those pesky patricians,

Dr Rad 3:15
indeed, and some people, maybe The patricians see this as horrifying beyond belief, the idea that you would leave Rome for a city that’s just been conquered, disgusting.

Dr G 3:29
Where’s your sense of morality? Where’s your sense of loyalty?

Dr Rad 3:34
Yeah, so it’s given us some nice, potentially kind of conflict of the orders, stuff, or maybe it’s just general, as you say, like lack of organization here, but definitely some tense times after the conquest of Veii which means Dr G, we’re ready to sail off from 393 BCE, and sail right On into 392, BCE.

Dr Rad 4:28
all right. Dr, G it’s 392 BCE, I’d love to hear who the magistrates are, and this seems to have become, by default, your job.

Dr G 4:38
I think it has, mostly because my source material has gone all screw with we have consuls for this year. What I know madness. This seems to be a trend now, if you like, because we did have consuls in 393 as well, but that was after a big gap. And. All of a sudden, we’re back in consul territory. What does this tell us about Rome? We’re not really sure, no, but we’ve got the Fasti Capitolini, which is this later document that’s put together, which purports to be the magistrate list for each year, and when it contains more than two in the highest slot, the assumption is that they can’t be consuls. Now, is this how early Rome was truly organized? It is almost impossible to know. But when we only have two names, the assumption is that we must be dealing with a consulship, this traditional divide of regal power amongst two Roman citizens in order to keep things in balance,

Dr Rad 5:42
and not just any Roman citizens, exclusively patricians. Oh,

Dr G 5:47
those guys, indeed. And so for this year of 392, BCE, we have Lucius Valerius Potitus, who was consul in the previous year, and also somebody who has a long history in the role of military Tribune with consular power in 414, 406-403-4013 98 a Titus. He’s been everywhere, yeah, showing up a lot. And his companion in the consulship is a guy called Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. But we are not so sure about this guy’s praenomen, so it is listed diversely amongst our sources. He’s also sometimes referred to as Aulus, and that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, and then also known as potentially Titus, which comes up in Dionysus of Halicarnassus. So we’re not entirely sure which Manlius Capitolinus we’re dealing with here, and it seems to be a little bit up for grabs now in terms of other figures that may be of interest, that is it for the list of magistrates, that’s all I have. But I do have some other notable figures that are going to come up from my side quest, “Meanwhile in Sicily”, so obviously, Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, is going to be out and about. He’s about to bring his brother Thearides into the mix, so that should be fun for all of us. And we also encounter a guy called Heloris who is from Syracuse as well, but ends up leading the army of the city of Croton. And I’ll get more into that when the time is right,

Dr Rad 7:41
I feel like we’re venturing into Superman territory or something with a place called Croton, either that or salads.

Dr G 7:52
Look I like a good salad, and when you’re down that way, I think it’s the best kind of food,

Dr Rad 7:58
all right. Well, Dr, G, I of course I’m returning to my ever faithful Livy. Livy’s account for 392 does connect a little bit with what had happened the previous year, with that debate about what to do with Veii so you might recall that because consuls were agreed on, as you’ve noted, was a bit of an unusual thing. We haven’t had consuls for a while, seemingly because when you have military tribunes with consular power, there is at least the chance that you might have a plebeian ruling. I mean, that really doesn’t seem to have been a consideration at all. It has not been mentioned in a really long time. But that seemingly is one of the things that the population are concerned about, and why we haven’t had consuls for quite some time. Is it perhaps, maybe more because Rome is at war and needs lots of people who can go and fight them. Who knows? But we ended up, after the consuls had been elected, they put forward a decree where, apparently, a parcel of land from the conquered Bay was given out, I believe to every plebeian, it was a little tricky to understand exactly who was going to be getting it, but I’m pretty sure it’s probably every plebeian, pre born Roman citizen. This

Dr G 9:15
seems to be to every free born citizen. So that could encompass patricians as well, yes, and if it did, I imagine the patricians would be slightly more happy about it. But I do find it fascinating, because for all of the argument against going to Veii in the first place, like, how dare you leave Rome, all of a sudden, this land is all parceled out to people. What are you supposed to do with it?

Dr Rad 9:39
In the translation I have of Livy, and I admit I did not go and check the Latin, which I probably should have, but it says to every plebeian, and not alone, to the heads of families. So in other words, I I’m taking that to be not just the pater familias of a plebeian family, but legitimately, to every plebeian. I mean the subtext here. Various men, I would say I’d

Dr G 10:02
find it highly surprising if the freeborn women of the plebeian class were offered seven iugera of land outside of Veii, although it would

Dr Rad 10:11
be nice. I know the little holiday home, they can set up little spas a farm of one’s own, yeah, but that’s because the plebeians were so happy by this resolution in the previous year. That’s why, apparently, they allowed for consoles to be, once again, a thing in 392, BCE. They’re just not angry anymore. You know, they’ve lost the fight.

Dr G 10:33
It’s fine by all means. Have consuls. I’ve gotten what I want

Dr Rad 10:37
exactly. Now, one of the guys that you mentioned, potentially Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, he is definitely going to be a figure to watch, and there is a bit of dispute about how he actually got the last part of his name as well. So Capitolinus, in some versions of his story, is a name that he wins. And I’m not going to tell you how, because that would give the game away. But, you know, it’s one of those special titles that a Roman could potentially be awarded in recognition of some sort of action, usually in a battle or something like that. However, it could actually just be because that’s where his family lived, yeah, yeah,

Dr G 11:19
because this is not the first time we’ve encountered a Capitolinus, I

Dr Rad 11:23
know, but there’s a particular story surrounding this guy. Watch this space. So, yes, watch this space, but that’s a bit of an explanation for why his name might have come about. It’s actually very boring when you think about it, in the sense that it could be a glorious military Act, or it could just be his address.

Dr G 11:42
Well, I guess we’ll just have to find out together. I’m sure when the time is right, you will tell me the details. I

Dr Rad 11:49
will. I will. Now we’ve got to tie up a few loose ends in 392, BCE, dr, G so the consoles decide that this is a year that they should hold the great games, because Camillus had made a vow that this was going to happen during the war with Veii if Rome was victorious, and it was so obviously got to make sure those promises to the gods are fulfilled. And it’s also in this year that the temple to Juno is dedicated. Now again, this relates to actions taken by Camillus during the war with they remember when the Romans are like, hey, Juno, why don’t you pack up all your stuff here in this loser city, move on over to some guys with way more style.

Dr G 12:34
And she’s accepted that offer. And so obviously she needs a temple now, exactly.

Dr Rad 12:39
So they’ve obviously been working on that, and it is officially dedicated. Officially dedicated in this year. So if this is all looking very promising, the Romans look like they’re getting very square with the gods. Consuls are back. Patricians are at the top of the tree. I mean, what more

Dr G 12:53
could you want? I was going to say it sounds like a patrician dream right now. I know now

Dr Rad 12:59
I love this little detail that I think you will also appreciate, because it’s not often we’ve got often we’ve got to speak about the ladies recently, apparently, Livy notes that there were throngs of very excited matrons present at the dedication of this temple. And he also says it in a way that I find intriguing as a historian, he says tradition relates that throngs of women were fangirling all over this temple, I know, says something about it being passed down,

Dr G 13:30
perhaps. Now, do we know which version of Juno we’re talking about here? Does this become Juno of the Capitoline, or is this another version of Juno

Dr Rad 13:42
initial? Initially this temple to Juno is placed on the Aventine, which is interesting, because that’s outside the pomerium, probably because at this stage, the Romans are a little bit suspicious of this Juno. She is, after all, someone who’s only very recently made the switch. You don’t want her inside the pomerium until you’re sure that she’s in for a long time, and not just a good time. Yeah,

Dr G 14:09
you gotta build trust, you know, foreign god until proven otherwise,

Dr Rad 14:13
exactly switching away from domestic affairs. Dr G there is a war with the Aequians, which takes place on Mount Algidus. Not very exciting, though, because even Livy gives me almost nothing and says it was a campaign in no way memorable.

Dr G 14:31
Wow, Well, if I recall rightly, the last few times that we’ve talked about the Aequians, you’ve assured me that they’ve been completely destroyed by the Romans, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t put in a good showing this time.

Dr Rad 14:45
I know, and apparently what Livy means by it was in no way memorable. The Romans had basically beaten them before they’d even started fighting. I never know how that’s possible, but maybe they just gave them a really dirty look, and the Aequians just shooken their little huh? Yeah, maybe sandals. I don’t know what the Aequians would have been running around

Dr G 15:03
in, wow, okay, the fearful glance and then the running away,

Dr Rad 15:08
yeah, the Aequians flee before the Romans after this non fight, and Valerius, the Consul, pursues them, and again, we see a mass slaughter of Aequians. How these people keep bouncing back? I will never know the women in this place must be constantly pregnant to keep this city going.

Dr G 15:26
It does sound intense every time they’ve come up against the Romans recently, it has not gone well for them. So how many Aequians Could there be left? Are they drawing from supporters from further south to replenish their lines? Goodness

Dr Rad 15:40
knows, I only wish Livy would give me some numbers here. All he tells me is that Valerius was given a triumph for this mass slaughter of fleeing Aequians. Manlius, the other Consul, was obviously also involved, but not as much, because he was given the lesser ovatio.

Dr G 15:58
Oh, I see Well, not quite as fancy as a triumph, but I suppose when the Aequians have run away, you’ve got to celebrate somehow.

Dr Rad 16:05
Now we also have a war developing with the people of Volsinii.

Dr G 16:10
Okay, where are these people? Are they related to the Volscians? Or are they slightly different?

Dr Rad 16:15
This is apparently the first time that we have come across this in Livy’s account. It’s weird, because I kind of feel like I have, I’ve mentioned it before, but maybe it came up in a different way, but it is one of the 12 fabled Etruscan cities, but it’s much further north than anything we’ve talked about before. Apparently it’s about 50 miles north of Falerii. And no, that’s not my own statistic there. Obviously I would never be talking in miles if it was, but it’s, it’s quite a long way away.

Dr G 16:46
Okay, okay, so that’s pretty deep into Etruscan territory.

Dr Rad 16:49
Yes, unfortunately, it’s at this moment that famine and pestilence strike against the Romans and their little mini empire that they are building, apparently caused by drought and a heat wave. And the Romans were so ill they couldn’t really field an army against this enemy, which made the people from this place, the volcsinians, ease. What a mouthful. Overly confident. Dr, G, uh oh, that doesn’t sound good. They joined forces with the people of Sappinates. Don’t ask me, where that is. We don’t know, presumably, not that far away. A typical Volsinii Move Yes. Now they decided that together, whilst the Romans were sick, they were going to start invading Roman fields. So the Romans pulled themselves out of their sick beds and very shakily declared war on everybody.

Dr G 17:56
Hmm. I really wish I had more source material for this year, because it sounds exciting on some level, and I wish I had something to contribute.

Dr Rad 18:04
Well, get ready for it, because we’re about to have the death of someone very important. Oh, yeah, there was a sensor in place at this time called Gaius. Julius. He obviously gets sick at this time and dies.

Dr G 18:23
Okay, so we had the census listed a couple of years ago. Now, I think it was actually only last year. It might have been the last year, yeah, and usually, although we’re not sure about this early period of friends history, caveat always that the censorship does take at least a few years to fully enact so it’s the kind of position that you might hold in an ongoing fashion over two or three years in order to get the job done. Now, would that be required in this early period of Rome’s history?

Dr Rad 18:53
I don’t know. Well, according to Livy, definitely yes, because this guy is still in there and he dies, and we actually have confirmation of this in the Capitoline Fasti. So they also indicate that there was a guy with this name who was a sensor at this time, and he died.

Dr G 19:11
Yes, these are all details that I have recorded for 393, where there is a suffect censor brought in to replace poor Julius.

Dr Rad 19:23
That’s right, because they basically just slot in a guy called Marcus Cornelius to take his place. Now, later on, the Romans see this as a dumb move. They feel like they were too hasty and maybe didn’t pay proper attention to the details, because they think this is something that maybe annoyed the gods, you know, got to carry all things out, yeah, because it’s during this particular lustrum that Rome is going to face some serious misfortune. So from then on, Livy tells us the Romans did not replace any censors who died. In office instead the partner who was elected alongside this censor, because, you know, the Romans love having multiple people sharing the same office, had to step down, and you had to bring in a totally new pair.

Dr G 20:16
I see, okay, so you couldn’t just have half the pair continue, and with a substitute in place, he had to get rid of everybody start

Dr Rad 20:23
again. This is what Livy says anyway. It may be something that Livy is saying as a kind of way of upholding the Roman notion of always having colleagues together, I guess, bound, as it were, by a sacred obligation.

Dr G 20:44
Well, the Romans do love that. They take that very

Dr Rad 20:46
seriously indeed. Now, our poor consuls, they also fall ill with the plague that is all around Rome at this time. Oh, no. And they decide that therefore fresh auspices are needed through an interregnum.

Dr G 21:03
Oh, okay, well, this is explaining a lot of the outstanding names that I had for 393, let me go back to that year, because I do have that sensor, surfactus. And then there’s also all sorts of things. Oh, actually, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I have some interreges that come up in

Dr Rad 21:25
391 Oh, that would be these guys. Yeah,

Dr G 21:30
okay, can I excitedly tell you their names? You

Dr Rad 21:33
may. I’m just going to explain the rationale for having them, of course. So

Dr G 21:36
please do.

Dr Rad 21:37
The consuls step down. So again, a bit of a you know, colleagues acting together, the colleagues that act together stay together. Dr G following the Senate’s instructions. And the concern seems to be obviously around the idea that if they have interreges Or perhaps military tribunes rather than consuls, then they’re not going to be left in the lurch, because there’ll be so many of them that they can’t all die of the plague. Look, there’s some logic to it. You’ve got to admit sure, like, yeah, the more people that are in office, the less likely it is that they’ll all die.

Dr G 22:18
Yes, yes, indeed. We won’t talk about disease theories or how viruses work.

Dr Rad 22:24
Sure. I mean, yes, they can all get sick, but will they all die? I

Dr G 22:29
think My bigger question at this point might be, why do we have interreges at all? This is a very old position that we haven’t seen since the very early days of the Republic. And even then, it’s a bit questionable, because what is really happening here, and interreges is meant to be a substitute, replacement, short term, for an absent king. And as we know, Rome doesn’t have any

Dr Rad 22:58
king, I know, but they do still revert to this whole idea of the interreges, I feel like it is just a still, the thing that they see as like a temporary placeholder whilst they’re sorting out magistracies. It doesn’t seem to be super long term this one, as you’re about to note, as we slide into the magistrates of 391 there are only a few of these interreges who kind of pass the hot potato to each other before they then elect military tribunes with consular power. Okay.

Dr G 23:24
Well, our Interreges, as far as I’m aware, are Marcus Furius Camillus, ding, ding, ding, star of the show, Publius, Cornelius Scipio, yep. And Lucius Valerius Potitus,

Dr Rad 23:38
exactly. And that’s exactly the order that they go in. Camillus is made the first interrex ,he then chooses Scipio to be the next interrex. And then Scipio runs like crazy around the forum before he tags Lucius Valerius Potitus. And then we have the six military tribunes chosen for 391 BCE,

Dr G 23:58
which is very interesting, because Lucius Valerius Potitus was Consul, so he’s been taken out of that position and then placed in this interim role as interrex instead. It’s all about the formalities. What’s going on in Rome. It’s a chaotic time for everyone.

Dr Rad 24:17
It is. Would you like to tell us who else we have? Because whilst the list for 392 is very short, the list for 391 is as long as your arm.

Dr G 24:26
Well, I’d love to but first of all, I’ve got some things to say about 392 if indeed we’re leaving that year, we are leaving that year. Wow, things have not stopped in Sicily plague or no plague, yeah. You know, people could be dying in the center of Italy, but down south, well, they’re having a rollicking old time. So Diodorus Siculus does bracket this whole section, which I’m entitling Meanwhile in Sicily with some Roman information. So we do have this idea that we’ve got a guy called Lucius Valerius. Yes. And someone called Aulus Mallius, which is almost correct as consuls in Rome, and he dates this to the archonship of Antipater in Athens, which would place our date at around 389 to 388 BCE. And we know that Rome’s dating is a bit out of sync with other places, and we’re never really going to get quite back on track with that until quite some time later. But nonetheless, you

Dr Rad 25:30
honestly, you could be right. I think about that, because there definitely are a lot of questions about the dates of the events that we’ve been talking about recently, as you know, and as you know, they are thought to be out by three years most of the

Dr G 25:44
time. And it seems like on any given year, the Roman dating is out by 234, years. Yeah, really unclear. What’s two or four years? It’s just a whole Olympiad. It’s fine, exactly. So we’re down in Syracuse and Dionysus, the Tyrant of Syracuse. He has been having a back and forward time because previous to this, he decided he was going to do an invasion of the boot of Italy. He was like Sicily. Is not enough for me. I need the mainland. Not only that, he has what appears to be an exceptional array of forces, 20,000 infantry, what? 3000 cavalry, 40 ships of war, and 300 transport vessels for food supplies.

Dr Rad 26:32
And I believe these numbers for a second. Dr G, he’s

Dr G 26:35
loaded the way that the Romans never will be. So he gets to Messina, that’s the gelato, yeah. Just have a sneaky gelato for anybody in the world that is not based in Australia. Messina is a gelato brand, a

Dr Rad 26:53
very famous one. If you have a visit, please do try some.

Dr G 26:56
Yeah, come to Messina. Have some gelato so he gets to Messina rest his troops there. While he’s doing that, he dispatches his brother, Thearides We’ve never heard mention of before, but apparently has been around this whole time. Thearides is tasked with 30 ships, and he send to the island of the Liparians. Now they get sent there. So the Liparians are slightly north of Sicily.

Dr Rad 27:23
Are these the guys, the pirates we were talking about?

Dr G 27:25
Yeah, the Liparian Pirates, yeah, yep. They’ve got their own island.

Dr Rad 27:29
The most ethical pirates in the world.

Dr G 27:31
They seem like good guys, they do, but they are also harboring 10 ships of the regians. And the regians are the people who are in Calabria, which is Reggio Calabria, so you can basically see their city from Messina and Dionysus of the Syracuse hates them with a fiery passion, and he knows that the Liparians are harboring regian ships, so he is not happy about that, and he sends his brother with three times As many ships as he’s heard the reckons have. And he’s like, deal with that. So he does. He heads up there, seizes the ships, seizes the crew, brings them all back to Messina. Dionysus promptly throws them into prison and turns them over to the messenians. Being like, have fun with them. I don’t care about them anymore. And then he takes his whole army to a place called Colonia. And unfortunately, we don’t have any idea where Colonia is, but we think it must be on mainland Italy. Sometime, he lays siege to that city, and really starts to lay into them day after they siege engines, frequent assaults on the city itself. I

Dr Rad 28:40
hate to say it, dr, G, but I feel like they brought this on themselves with the name of their city for heaven’s sakes maybe just asking to be conquered.

Dr G 28:50
Come on. So the Greeks of Italy, and there are many, they are not happy about this. This is obviously a problem. And they’re like, What are we going to do? The city of Croton is nearby. It’s the biggest city nearby, and it also has the largest number of exiles from Syracuse, presumably people who are anti the tyrant. So the decision is made to give the crotons command of the war effort on mainland Italy,

Dr Rad 29:19
Crotons in command.

Dr G 29:24
They are. They’re in command. They’re doing their things. And they choose a guy called Heloris, who’s also from Syracuse, another disaffected individual, to lead their army. They’re like, this is going to be great. We’ll seek a man who’s angry in charge, and then we’ll go for Dionysus, and we’ll get that man. He’d been banished previously by Dionysus, so his hatred levels were pretty high, and everyone could tell he was a very angry man about it, and they’re like, this is the guy to lead the war effort. We need somebody with that kind of strong, passionate outlook who will not be deter. Third from what is needed to succeed, he is given a command of 25,000 infantry and 2000 cavalry. So this is slightly smaller than the sorts of numbers that Dionysus is fielding at the moment, but it’s still quite substantial. It is for this time period. For this time period, it’s massive. Do we believe it? I don’t know. I

Dr Rad 30:26
don’t believe anything. Diodorus says

Dr G 30:30
they end up meeting slightly east of this place called Colonia at a river, and you’re like, okay, so be it and Heloris being the angry, disaffected exile that he is with his nurtured hatred for Dionysius, he is riding in the Vanguard with 500 of his best troops. He’s like, I’m gonna have at him. Let me at him. This ends up being a bit of a problem, I would say, for Heloris, because they don’t realize that Dionysius knows that they’re coming, and so they do get ambushed. It is unexpected for the crotons. They are not happy campers, and it is not long before Heloris found himself in desperate straits, as Diodorus tells us, and he is trying to find a way to extract his troops with minimal losses. And he also sends out a messenger quite quickly for backup and reinforcements. But the trouble is that the time frame’s not it doesn’t work out for him. He’s sending for help. By the time help arrives, it’s kind of too late. Dionysus troops have closed in, surrounded Heloris, and the 500 men, most of them, have been slain, even though they’ve really tried to resist. I feel like the thing that you want to imagine here is a bit like that monumental battle that happens in Game of Thrones, where Jon Snow is nearly nearly crushed, yeah, in the whole situation, it seems of that order of magnitude, Dionysus just has so many more troops. It’s something that hilarious is not able to get over. So we’ve got this situation where the Italian Greeks are really trying to defend their homeland, or what they see as their homeland. The Italians might disagree, and it’s not going so well. So what are they going to do? Obviously, they’re feeling a little bit desperate. They’re feeling a little bit subdued after this loss, and because they’ve lost their leader, the whole armed force that has been put to the field by the crotons tends to lose its way a little bit. They don’t have the clear leadership that they need. They retreat to a hill, and immediately, Dionysus forces are ordered to surround that hill and to begin a siege. These are people that are caught out in the countryside with not enough supplies, and they’re now trying to fortify in a place that is not set up for their defense. They’ve got to construct it from

Dr Rad 33:09
scratch. I was going to say this sounds like it’s going to be a short siege.

Dr G 33:13
It may be a short siege. It doesn’t take very long for them to suffer from the heat or from a lack of water, like they have some food supplies, but they’re camping out on a hill, and we’re talking Southern Italy. It’s a nice, warm part of the world, even winter’s quite nice. So they sent a herald to diocese, and they basically say, we’re willing to surrender. You know, we would like to offer ourselves up for ransom, all of this kind of thing. He orders them to lay down their arms. And he doesn’t necessarily accept this idea of just sort of the ransoming. He actually wants them to feel violated in some way, huh? So we get Dionysius the tyrant, not a nice guy, just

Dr Rad 34:05
putting it out there. Oh no. I mean, I guess it’s all in the name again, isn’t it? He

Dr G 34:09
basically has them stand there having surrendered for another eight hours in the hot sun. Oh, my God. And then takes a staff and has places it in the ground. Has the troops come towards him and counts them as they come. The Count comes to about 10,000 what? So he basically is asking them to pass under the yoke, this idea of the you’ve got to pass under the stars. Oh,

Dr Rad 34:39
no, it’s more the 10,000 I was saying that about not the not the act.

Dr G 34:43
Well, they had sent 25,000 so the fact that only 10,000 had survived to be fortified on this hill in the first place, the losses already were quite significant.

Dr Rad 34:53
Did he get a Cornetto and he licks it in front of their face, and he’s like, Oh yeah, that tastes real good. Too bad. This is the last. Last 110

Dr G 35:02

Dr Rad 35:26
This is insanity. What’s the point of all this, if he’s just going to let them all go free with no repercussions whatsoever?

Dr G 35:34
Well, I think the thing to keep in mind is that his bugbear is not with the crotons. His problem is with the Rhegians, and you might ask yourself, well, how did he come to have a problem with the Rhegians? Because that’s never been clear why he’s got an issue with them, but the story is now told to us. Diodorus Siculus does reveal the reason why he hates the Rhegians, and it’s because at some point earlier on, he had wanted to marry well, and he had offered to marry the best of the Rhegian’s daughters, and the regians insulted him by only offering him the daughter of the public executioner. Wow.

Dr G 35:34
It’s like the rape of the Sabines all over again. So much heartbreak in history when men are not given the brides that they seem to think they deserve.

Dr G 35:52
Yes, there is nothing quite like the entitlement of a young man who thinks he deserves it so because of this slight that had happened, I’m not sure how long ago, but it still smarts for Dionysus, because obviously he didn’t accept to marry the public executioner’s daughter. You shock

Dr Rad 35:52
me. Dr, G rude. Let me guess he gave that match the axe.

Dr G 35:52
Oh no, yeah, it was dead in the water, if you like. He requires the Rhegians. In this moment, he asked for 300 talents, and because he’s in a superior military position right now, they’re not in a position to refuse. He also takes all of their ships, all 70, we are told, and he orders them to deliver him 100 hostages. And this is on the back of the fact that the Greek Italians have put all of their forces under the command of Heloris of Croton, formerly of Syracuse. And so the Iranians themselves have put forces into this so they themselves aren’t able to raise something to defend themselves. So when Dionysus marches straight up to them and says, it’s now time to pay up for your grievous insults, they’re like, Oh no, we can’t defend ourselves.

Dr Rad 37:49
They can’t really do that right now.

Dr G 37:51
So he takes the hostages, sends them to Syracuse, and then he levels the city to the ground and gives the territory to the Cauloniates. Oh, the territory of the Cauloniates. So these are the people who was fighting originally to the Locrians. So it’s getting very confusing.

Dr Rad 38:11
I was gonna say you’ve lost me completely with the geography. Now all I’m thinking about is the Crotons and how you really should be more concerned about them, because the closer they get to the sun, the more their powers of being able to see through things with their bare eyes, and the ability to fly. You gotta watch it get stronger, get stronger every time. But they move at super speed too. They can leap tall buildings if they existed in this time with a single bounce.

Dr G 38:37
I mean, it’s really quite concerning, but it seems that what Dionysius, the Tyrant of Syracuse is trying to do is to turn the Greek Italians against each other and to splinter them off into sort of subgroups, so that they no longer able to reinforce each other and you can sort of more easily take them over. Okay, that seems to be the gist of it. So he’s had a really big year, and we’ve also learned a little of his tragic backstory.

Dr Rad 39:03
So watch this space where the douchebaggery began.

Dr G 39:07
Yeah, everybody’s got a villain origin story. And when you’re a guy, it always relates to the things that you were denied, that you didn’t really deserve but you thought you did. Yeah, there you go. The other thing I’d like to bring to 392, because I had such a dearth of source material,

Dr Rad 39:24
like literally nothing. It doesn’t seem to have been a great year for Rome, either, to be fair,

Dr G 39:28
because I had so little. The only other thing that Diodorus tells us is that the Romans take the city of Liphoecua, which we don’t know where that is from, the people of the Aequi.

Dr Rad 39:41
Oh, okay, I was gonna say that just sounds like a really strange place name for the part of Italy that we’re in.

Dr G 39:49
I mean, I think he’s wrong, but I don’t know how to make that right, so we would know what was going on. And he does say that in accordance with the vows or the consuls, great games are held in honor of Zeus. Ah, there you go. So we do get that sort of link up. We’ve got some agreement, yes, there’s some agreement, which Romans had games and then got really sick, the great games? No, well, Diodorus doesn’t mention any of the sickness, so he’s on to the big ticket items that are happening in

Dr Rad 40:17
Rome. Squeeze me. Everybody got sick. It was a pretty big deal. They head interreges.

Dr G 40:25
But was it as interesting as what Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse, was up to? Apparently, not,

Dr Rad 40:31
maybe not. But that’s because they were too ill to be interesting.

Dr G 40:35
Well, there you have it. Guys. You heard it here first, the Romans, too ill to be interesting, just some of the time. So in the light of the dearth of information that I possess for 392 I was like, let us turn to the secondary sources. What do scholars have to say? And that’s how I ended up reading Bernard’s 2018, piece Rome, from the sack of Veii to the Gallic sack. Spoiler alert.

Dr Rad 41:00
Damn it, those spoilers, they just keep coming up. It’s usually

Dr G 41:05
me. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Don’t read it. Listeners don’t read it. I will just tell you some of the pertinent things, and it’s not going to be about the Gallic sack. So one of the questions that scholars have about this period is, what is going on with Rome’s economy, because we know it hasn’t been going well. And you’ve mentioned things like this pestilence there’s and this has been going on for a couple of years. It would seem as well. They’re not having a great time, but they’ve also just come into a whole new stack of land by taking they’ve gained a whole bunch of territory and booty, and presumably booty, and also potentially labor force, because whoever has been enslaved as a result of that conquest is now flowing into the Latin enslavement system, charming. So there’s going to be bodies to go around in a horrifying way. This is just the way ancient Italy worked. I don’t agree with it, but we do have this idea that there is economic disruption, decline, things, people aren’t thriving. If we think about this narrative of Rome against the Aequians for the last few years as well, it’s this backwards, forwards thing where, apparently the Aequians are always decimated, but Rome isn’t seeming to make great grounds. It’s not like they’ve had a significant conquest. These sorts of things suggest that what is happening at the moment in this early period of the fourth century is a little bit of a stress, because it seems like even taking they and having all of this new land doesn’t necessarily enhance the prosperity of the Romans to a significant degree.

Dr Rad 42:52
Oh, it’s a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I mean, that’s why they had to introduce the whole idea of military pay, which they almost certainly did not do.

Dr G 43:01
Well, exactly. And so we’ve got all of this suggestion that this is a struggle in terms of a military situation, there’s a lot of warfare, but not a lot of gains. They is a big exception to that. But even under the circumstances that Rome wins, how is that really being incorporated into Rome’s economic situation? You would expect it by

Dr Rad 43:27
being doled out to the plebeians. That’s how, yeah,

Dr G 43:31
you would expect it to be uplifting people, a little bit more than seems to be suggested by any of our source material, written or otherwise. And so this is the kind of case that Bernard is bringing forward, is that we’ve got labor and land, but we don’t seem to see ongoing benefits to those acquisitions by the time we get 30 or 40 years down the track, the initial injection of these things into their economy seems to have really worn off, and they’re back in what feels like an economic and manpower crisis again. So the whole situation with pestilence, the ongoing situation of people being killed in warfare, but not really gaining any traction. This doesn’t seem to be a flourishing time for Rome, or for any of their neighbors, and the interesting things that are happening in South Italy, where they seem to have less pestilence, that doesn’t seem to be going well for anybody either. They’re engaged in this tussle of warfare as well. So there’s a real pressure on people everywhere, it would seem right now to have the resources that they need to be satisfied with them. One of the drivers of warfare is not feeling like you’ve got enough, and there is a desperate attempt to gain more in order to do the needful. So there’s a pressure on resources, and everybody’s feeling the pinch, and this is leading to a lot of decisions that are making life more difficult for everybody.

Dr Rad 45:00
Be, as you were saying that last little bit, it actually really made me think of our own time to a certain extent, not that we live in anything like the hardship of a Roman in the early fourth century BCE, but when we look around and compare ourselves to other people, and we have this real aspirational mindset of where we need to be, and we feel like we’re we’re very pinched at the moment. You know so much talk about cost of living, crisis and that sort of thing, and, oh boy, there’s some foolish decisions being made in the world,

Dr G 45:36
definitely. And there’s this sense in which it’s just not, it doesn’t seem possible to really flourish. There’s just too many impediments, whether it’s related to the weather, whether it’s related to population issues, whether it’s related to the inability to capitalize on gains and whatever is up with Rome’s economic system, is something that is of interest to scholars, partly because we we’re going to see the emergence of coinage soonish. But how are they doing it? They still have concepts like debt that definitely exists by now, sure. And a lot of Romans seem to be in debt, yeah. How do you get yourselves out of something like that? And what does success for the Romans really look like in this period? And expansion doesn’t seem to necessarily bring the expected benefits.

Dr Rad 46:23
Well, it is one thing to take place. It’s quite another to hold it. And that’s, I think, why we see so much back and forth, sometimes between the Romans and their neighbors. However, to all of this discussion. Dr G, I think the Romans, if they were here right now, would say to you, listen, little lady, no pain, no gain.

Dr G 46:45
Well, fair enough, just putting it out there, is that it seems like a complicated time, and that some of those complexities might be shielded from us by the nature of the source material. Yeah, like, what does the archeological record look like? How much is Livy really reflecting what we’ve actually got in terms of the history itself, and these are things that we’re not sure about.

Dr Rad 47:06
Well, this is the thing we know that Livy is working from sources that are probably pretty patchy, or at least he’s working from sources which have had to put their accounts together from pretty patchy accounts, and looking back writing from their vantage point, I think it would make sense to present this time period as one of Roman expansion, and later on, expanding is what the Romans do best. So it seems like perhaps the beginning of something glorious for the Romans, and they is just such a conquest. You know, it would seem that this would have to be a period where Rome was doing really well, but perhaps, yeah, when you actually peel back the narrative a little bit, it’s like, oh, well, it’s a little bit more up and down than that.

Dr G 47:55
Definitely, definitely. Well, that is all I have to say on 392,

Dr Rad 48:01
well, I am shocked that my I think five sentences turned into quite this lengthy and episode. Dr, G, so Bravo for your Meanwhile in Sicily, and also, what’s really going on in Rome. Segments,

Dr G 48:14
what’s really happening? I have questions.

Dr Rad 48:18
That means that it is time for the partial pick.

Dr Rad 48:27
Been too long since I heard your voice, Igor.

Dr G 48:30
Igor, well, the partial pick our chance to judge Rome against her own standards. There are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs, 10 in each category, the first being military clout.

Dr Rad 48:46
Well, according to my account, the Romans win a very impressive victory, while apparently filing their nails. At the same time,

Dr G 48:56
I was going to say, all they did was raise their eyebrows. I

Dr Rad 48:59
know they just gave him a bit of blue steel, and those people went running for the hills. And from then, it was just a matter of Schwing, schwing, which is swords, it’s nothing dirty.

Dr G 49:10
Ah the schwing, schwing. Well, even Diodorus of Siculus says that I shouldn’t say Diodorus. I was gonna say Diodorus Siculus. I think it’s because I’m so used to say Dionysius.

Dr Rad 49:28
Oh, I’d like to actually expand the name. I think it should be Diodorus of fully Siculus,

Dr G 49:36
If only, if only, sometimes he does great. He does say that the Romans take a city of the Aequians.

Dr Rad 49:42
This is true. This is true. I think they do have a victory of some sort against the Aequians. So that’s something. But then, of course, we do have them being too ill to do much more than angrily declare war whilst vomiting into a bucket by their bed. Well, I mean, their fields are being ravaged. Dr G, and they’re just. Sick to do anything about it.

Dr G 50:01
Well, that’s true. They’re not able to stop the pillaging from happening. Not

Dr Rad 50:06
really. There’s a threat there. I mean, they’re not taking it lying down, even though they are taking it while lying down

Dr G 50:13
in good Roman style. That’s right, all right. Well, maybe it’s a two,

Dr Rad 50:20
okay, that’s a little me, like I was just trying to temper it a little bit. I wasn’t trying to go too crazy here. I feel like it maybe has to be like a maybe a four and maybe a four, yeah, well, I mean an effortless victory, where they barely do nothing but massacre the Aequians, a triumph, an ovatio Dr G, that does suggest

Dr G 50:44
something fancy did happen. And the other one got a triumph, which, you know, isn’t bad for raising your eyebrows on any given Sunday. All

Dr Rad 50:51
right, four, it is. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr G 50:54
Our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 50:58
Well, I would say definitely not. There’s angry staring and declarations of war all around. That’s a zero, yeah, even, even in “Meanwhile in Sicily”, it’s nothing but fighting.

Dr G 51:11
I’m not getting the Sicilians any points, never, expansion,

Dr Rad 51:18
huh? This is a tricky one. I don’t really believe Diodorus. It just seems to be more a encounter. It doesn’t seem to be about expansion. At this point in time.

Dr G 51:28
They take a whole city. It’s not diplomatic, no, I know, but I just don’t believe him. Wow, there’s going to be a day where you will rue those words.

Dr Rad 51:40
Look, I’ll give them a one on the odds that Diodorus is correct.

Dr G 51:45
I mean, I don’t think they’ve engaged in any diplomacy. Taking a city is not

Dr Rad 51:48
isn’t this expansion?

Dr G 51:51
Oh, yeah. Don’t mind me. Expansion, yes. How many points were you giving? I’m

Dr Rad 51:59
in the future. Dr, G, come join me.

Dr G 52:03
I’m right with you. I’m right with you. Temporary lapse.

Dr Rad 52:06
Maybe one, I don’t know, maybe one, it’s not mentioned in Livy, and if it’s not mentioned in Livy, it’s not a fact.

Dr G 52:13
Wow. All right, the bias is starting to show through.

Dr Rad 52:17
That’s our next t shirt, by the way. One, one, okay, one, Ah,

Dr G 52:28
okay. Weirdos. Do we see any signs of weirdos?

Dr Rad 52:32
Not really. I mean, I do admire them for maintaining their militaristic attitude whilst extraordinarily ill. But I don’t think you count that as weirdos,

Dr G 52:43
yeah, waving your pitchforks while vomiting. No, okay, that’s a zero, and then the citizen score.

Dr Rad 52:52
I don’t think this is very good either. I mean, sensors are dying and causing problems with the gods. The consuls get sick and they have to resign. Presumably, barbains are not immune to this disease. I don’t think it’s good. Dr, G,

Dr G 53:06
it doesn’t sound ideal. And having just finished off talking about this year with things aren’t great on the economic front, or the labor market front, or any kind of front that we’re aware of, I can’t make a convincing case. I don’t think for the citizens having a good time right now, I

Dr Rad 53:24
think it has to be a zero. Wow. Well, I mean, you know, it’s really serious, the pestilence,

Dr G 53:31
it’s all bad. Yes, this is a continuation of that one where I described, Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Described it as people scratching their skin down to the bone. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is, this is not a good time, all right, zero, okay. Well, they haven’t done very well, have

Dr Rad 53:48
they? They haven’t really. It’s a grand total of five Golden Eagles out of a possible 50. Well, that’s Rome for you. Look lady for giving me so little material to work with. I was gonna

Dr G 54:02
say sometimes the source material just doesn’t give us enough to be able to hand out any points.

Dr Rad 54:07
You know what? I think it’s because they feel like they deserve a sick day. No, history doesn’t stop when you get the plague Rome, clearly not horrifying stuff. There’s another t shirt for you.

Dr G 54:20
We’re gonna have a whole shop of T

Dr Rad 54:21
shirts. Podcast. I’m on a roll. What can I say? Well,

Dr G 54:26
it has been a pleasure. Dr, rad, and I look forward to our next conversation

Dr Rad 54:30
indeed. Dr, G,

Dr Rad 54:39
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians, you can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The partial historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the memory collective head to collectivemem.com. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to some of the newest members of our partial band, Robert Finch, Rachel Parker, Tom King and Jonathan Lance. You can also support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi. However, if you haven’t exactly been rolling around in that captured booty lately, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 164 – A Campaign in No Way Memorable appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We’re still in the year 394 BCE and we’ve seen Camillus has had a run in with the Falsican Schoolmaster. In this episode we move on further into the action of 394 BCE and look at 393 BCE as well. Is Camillus learning how to keep a low profile? He is praised from his success over the Faliscans and he doesn’t rush for a triumph this time. But the challenge remains, that Camillus’ forgotten vow to Apollo might be about to bite him on the bottom.

Rome is pretty intent on fulfilling Camillus’ forgotten vow to Apollo and this means a boat trip is in order. But sailing to Greece is not for the faint hearted, especially when you have such precious cargo as a golden bowl in tow. Tune in for adventures on the high sea!

The Aequians, a thorn in Rome’s side? Yes indeed. Do our sources agree? Of course not. It’s Diodorus Siculus against Livy, duking it out with Siculus having just a mention of trouble, while Livy comes packing details. We take you through the chaotic details. The conflict centres in the town of Verrugo but watch out for mention of Tusculum as well.

It’s time for the Roman census! We also see a return of the consulship in 393 BCE! The tussle about moving some of Rome’s population permanently to Veii is back on the agenda. There’s a faction in favour of a move to Veii and a faction against. Our sources seem to position this as a patrician/plebeian divide, but it might be more confusing or complicated than that.

Somehow, the Aequian forces, that were absolutely devastated in 394 BCE are BACK baby but their appearance seems only a flash in the pan compared to Rome’s troubles at home. There’s tribunes of the plebs to worry about, factional infighting over what to do about Veii, and some trials to contend with as well. It’s an exhausting time to be in Roman politics! Enter scene right: Camillus… How important was the tribune of the plebs right of veto? The question is raised in Livy’s narrative.

All reelected from the previous year…

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad.

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:58
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad

Dr G 1:06
and I am, Dr G

Dr Rad 1:09
Dr G, we are still stuck in ancient Rome in 394 BCE.

Dr G 1:15
When will we ever leave this time period? There must be other parts of history we must explore. But for now, there are too many details for us to move on. So 394 has been a pretty epic year. So far, yeah, Camillus has done some pretty fancy stuff with the Faliscans in order to get them to agree that Rome should have some sort of sway over them, but they don’t seem to have to go through a whole siege process to achieve that. But you tell me, there’s even more to this year than that incredible story.

Dr Rad 1:56
There is more than Camillus and the Faliscan schoolmaster, which sounds like a bad porno.

Dr G 2:02
I would pick up that erotic literature.

Dr Rad 2:05
Yes. Now, unfortunately, there is more to it than that. We have a little bit more on Camillus. But then I have some other people actually doing things in ancient Rome, if you can believe it.

Dr G 2:16
Other people? Doing things in ancient ROme? Oh, this is too much. We’ll have to start a podcast together.

Dr Rad 2:18
I know. Well, I mean, you know, it’s really been the Camillus show in the 390s BC, hasn’t it so far?

Dr G 2:26
So far.

Dr Rad 2:28
All right, let’s get into the rest of 394 BCE

Dr G 4:34
All right. I am very excited to hear where this is going. And despite what I said in the previous episode about having nothing left to say about this year, I believe I do have something more to say that’s very exciting for me.

Dr Rad 4:51
It is. And I mean, I’m, I think we’re kicking it off with a really good story. So strap yourself in. Dr, G, so as we know, because. Camillus is just the most awesome human being on Earth. He’s resolved that whole situation with the Philistines, which means that he’s allowed to come back to Rome, and there is no techie triumph for him this time. Dr G, he’s keeping it a little bit more under wraps.

Dr G 5:20
All right, all right. Keep a low profile, accept the praise, but don’t go all out with the horses,

Dr Rad 5:26
Yeah, he’s just getting on with his life. He just wants to live, Dr G, why can’t people just let him live? I’ll tell you why, because of that vow he made.

Dr G 5:38
That pesky vow.

Dr Rad 5:39
Yep.

Dr G 5:39
Yeah, look, don’t ever forget the gods. And also don’t put people in a situation where they now owe money when they didn’t have to before it’s rude.

Dr Rad 5:49
Look, it is. But as we know, the money side of it has kind of been resolved by this point in time. Remember those darling little Roman matrons giving over their gold jewelry and their ornaments. They’ve got the gold they’ve got a bowl. They know that they want to give it to Apollo, but it hasn’t happened yet. And the senators are worried because Camillus therefore hasn’t resolved this whole vow situation. So they are going to send that bowl to Apollo at Delphi. And this is where our special legates that we talked about our ambassadors in the previous episode when we were listing those magistrates. So Lucius Valerius, Lucius Sergius and Aulus Manlius. Now they all are sent with this golden bowl and present in a single warship. And just when you think that things are going to be resolved for Camillus, they’re captured by none other than pirates. Ahhahaha matey!

Dr G 6:50
Oh, no, yeah, it’s a real disaster. Okay, yeah, Plutarch does go into a little bit of detail about this. So to take a golden bowl to Delphi, you do have to sail around the whole shoe of Italy to head around to the other side to get to Greece. Well, I hate to break it to you, but there are lots of islands in the Mediterranean and lots of seafaring peoples, and they love nothing more than picking off a lone vessel heading on its way with a golden bowl to Delphi.

Dr Rad 7:27
Yes.

Dr G 7:27
So this is happening very close to Rome, realistically compared to the length of the journey proposed. It is off the Aeolian isles, which are just north of Sicily.

Dr Rad 7:42
That is what I am told as well. I’m told that these are pirates from Lipara. So I guess, given the you know, given the area that they’re from, maybe they should be more like Mamma Mia. Will you please give me the golden bowl?

Dr G 7:58
Maybe. But they’re very likely to be Greeks. And they’re like, I see your golden bowl –

Dr Rad 8:04
Opa Opa! Don’t smash that. That’s made of gold. Can I throw some more stereotypes in here?

Dr G 8:10
And you’re heading to Delphi, you say, well, how convenient. They’re our people, we’ll be taking that bowl. Don’t you worry about it. We’ll get it there for you.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. Now, Dr, G, there’s something about 394 BCE, there is a worrying disease which the Romans don’t usually suffer from circulating, which is morality. I think morality became contagious in 394 because not only do we have Camillus acting so nobly in the first half of 394, but they seem to bump into pirates with a heart of gold as well as their gold bowl.

Dr G 8:49
Yes. Kindly pirates, yes. Well, yes, it’s very Guybrush Threepwood for people in the know. These pirates – Dr Rad is shaking her head –

Dr Rad 9:02
I’m not in the know

Dr G 9:03
Other nerds from the 90s, join me in this moment, the Liparian pirates notice that there is something ritualistic and religious to this whole ship, and once they are close enough to listen to the people on the other vessel. They realize that prayers and supplications are involved, and they’re carrying very precious cargo for Apollo and nobody, not even Liparian pirates, want Apollo to be dissatisfied, because they’d be taking on the risk themselves. If they took the bowl, they could be seen by Apollo as interfering in the whole process. So they decide to not run the vessel down and not capture it.

Dr Rad 9:53
That is so different to the version of the story that I have. Do you want to hear mine?

Dr G 9:58
Oh, yes, please, because there are. Are other details I just haven’t gotten to them yet.

Dr Rad 10:01
Okay, all right, in my version, the pirates actually do capture them and the booty. And normally they would go home and just split it up amongst themselves, but they have a chief magistrate called Timasitheüs Timasitheüs Timasitheüs – look it sounds Greek, who apparently was much more like a Roman than he was anything else, okay, including these other pirates he’s associating with. And he respects the aim of the mission. He respects the envoys. He respects the gods. And his attitude is so ethical that it impresses the people around him very much as well. And he starts treating the Roman captured envoys like guests of state. He then gives them ships so they can continue their mission to Delphi and he also allows them to take those same ships back to Rome again. So impressed are the Romans with this treatment that they enter into a covenant of hospitality with timascius, and there are gifts given to him by Rome which say on the gift card. Thank you so much for not wrecking our lives and the life of Camillus, our main man.

Dr G 11:26
A beautifully told rendition of the tale. Now, some of this, some of this detail, is conveyed by Plutarch as well. So despite not running the vessel down, they do tow it to shore and have a good look at it. Okay? So they look at all of the items, particularly this beautiful golden bowl, and they are thinking about maybe they will take the goods. And this is when Timasitheüs intervenes as the general of the Liparians, and persuades his crew to let everybody go, and then provides additional vessels so that there is a convoy, essentially, so they’re not just a lone ship, desperate times Romans

Dr Rad 12:17
Ripe for pirates, yeah,

Dr G 12:18
yeah. Don’t just be like, stick to a herd. Like, yeah, where are your friends?

Dr Rad 12:23
What were the Romans thinking? I mean, why would you send this precious golden bowl out by itself in the world?

Dr G 12:29
Okay? But let’s for one moment. Let’s let us pause, because I think this might be the first time the Romans have ever sent a ship anywhere that we know about.

Dr Rad 12:38
No, they said those guys should go and check out the laws of the Greeks.

Dr G 12:42
Yeah, and there’s the grain supply situation, but that’s just up and down the coast. But like, how many ships are they ever sending anywhere? We don’t really, don’t really get a sense that they are great seafaring people at this point.

Dr Rad 12:54
No, surely they’ve used a ship or two in their time.

Dr G 12:58
Well we’ve got this one boat, that’s the one we use for everything. So I don’t think we get the sense that the Romans aren’t sea savvy. I mean, who sends one boat?

Dr Rad 13:11
That’s true, and they are more land expansionists at this point in time.

Dr G 13:16
Yeah. How long have they controlled Ostia? So yeah, I’m not entirely convinced that they’re a great naval power at this point. So, but perhaps this is also about generating this idea of we’ve got friends further afield. The Liparians, look at that, making friends at the same time that we’re making enemies elsewhere.

Dr Rad 13:41
Well, this is an interesting thing, because this is actually a formal agreement that they’re entering into with these people. And the idea of having these sorts of arrangements, obviously, is that it is scary to go out into the wider world. If you know, no matter where you’re from, whether you’re from Rome or elsewhere, you kind of do need to have, obviously, places where you can feel safe and be assured of receiving hospitality, and that’s really what they’re talking about with this sort of agreement here, because otherwise, yeah, you are a bit vulnerable. And where do you go when you need to make a pit stop or sleep somewhere for the night. It’s it’s a bit risky, isn’t it?

Dr G 14:24
Definitely, and this is tapping into very particular Greek ideas about hospitality and the idea that strangers can possibly be gods in disguise. And because you cannot be sure about the nature of a stranger, it behooves you to treat them well and to treat them perhaps better than you would treat just a regular stranger of your own town, treating them with the greatest hospitality that you can provide in order to ensure their protection and your own and that idea of a reciprocity developing between peoples over time is. Certainly something that has bounded the Greek world together since at least the Homeric epics. So to see this idea start to permeate into the Roman world, perhaps we shouldn’t be so surprised to see it. And I wonder if it is the leperians that suggest this hospitality element, or whether it comes from the Roman side.

Dr Rad 15:21
It’s hard to say. I feel like the Romans are won over. And the interesting thing about this story is that when the Romans eventually annex Lipara, where these people are from, which doesn’t happen until 252 they apparently respect the rights of the descendants of this Timasitheüs. So there is obviously some sort of historicity for this interaction for them.

Dr G 15:49
Well, this golden bowl is going on quite a journey.

Dr Rad 15:52
Isn’t it? I know, I know it’s crazy. So anyway, at least now the golden bowl’s delivered. Apollo can be happy he has something to eat his spaghetti in. Not spaghetti, I don’t know what vine leaf rolls

Dr G 15:52
Eating his dolmades, delicious.

Dr Rad 15:52
Olives something – taramosalata, yum. Okay, now let’s switch to what else is going on in Rome, as you alluded to in our last episode. Dr G, there is also war happening with the Aequians.

Dr G 16:24
Oh, yes, I’m excited for the details about this. All I have is this single line from Diodorus Siculus, like war was also waged with the Aequians. I was like, wow, okay.

Dr Rad 16:34
Well, let me tell you. Dr G as is often typical of this year, it’s very up and down. No one really knew in the city, or even those actually involved in the warfare who was winning while it was happening, the guys who were in charge of it, military tribunes, Gaius Aemilius and Spurius Postumius.

Dr G 16:53
Okay,

Dr Rad 16:54
Yes. Now they start off commanding the army together. Once they have managed to defeat the Aequians. They sent Aemilius to Verrugo with a garrison of soldiers, whilst Postumius was put in charge of destruction, yeah, rock and roll, to really take these people down, because the Aequians continue to be a thorn in Rome side?

Dr G 17:22
Okay, well, sure. I mean, I can see how the Aequians might continue to be a thorn in Rome side. That makes a lot of sense. It doesn’t necessarily gel very well with the other detail that Diodorus Siculus offers, not that he should necessarily be considered correct.

Dr Rad 17:41
I was gonna say, Are you seriously saying Diodorus should be trusted over Livy? Livy?

Dr G 17:50
I’m not saying that. I’m just saying for the benefit of pursuing our source material in these different directions, because the other thing that Diodorus talks about is that the colony that is sent to Sutrium, just north west of Rome, was expelled by people from the city of Verrugo, and that sounds like the city of Verrugo and its people might be being stretched in a couple of different directions if they’re also facing hostilities from the Romans as well.

Dr Rad 18:20
You will see where this all fits in in just a moment. Dr, G, you’ve got your little impatient pants on there.

Dr G 18:28
Oh no. Let me hold my four white horses.

Dr Rad 18:31
Postumius is feeling a little cocky, because it seems like they’ve got this whole affair wrapped up. Feels like Rome is going to conquer the Aequians once again, and so as he is journeying along his way, he doesn’t make sure that his soldiers are traveling in the proper formation.

Dr G 18:49
Oh, okay, that could be a disaster. That’s about efficiency!

Dr Rad 18:54
Could be? Is, Dr G, is indeed the Aequians cleverly managed to ambush him and his men. The Romans, of course, are not prepared for this, because they’re not in formation. Get in formation. What? How many times do you hear that in a military movie and they’re thrown into a complete state of disarray? They run into the nearby hills, and it seems like chaos is now the thing that is catching not morality. It spreads to virugo and the other Roman forces who were stationed there spreading like wildfire throughout the Roman troops.

Dr G 19:29
Wait a minute, how does, how does the chaos get to Verrugo?

Dr Rad 19:34
Because it’s chaos, Dr G, need I say more.

Dr G 19:38
I really want a map so I knew where all of these people were in relative distance to each other, because this sounds a little unbelievable, Livy.

Dr Rad 19:47
Look, we don’t really get told exactly where Postumius is when all this is happening. We only know that they were together, these two Roman commanders, and now they are separating. But how far apart they. Actually got before this happened, before the gay bodies? Yes, exactly. So Postumius starts to gather his men into a position where they’re going to be safe, and gives them a severe ticking off for panicking and running away. He’s like, didn’t you learn anything from the Faliscians earlier this year? Honestly, especially against the Aequians, they are not worth your panic. The army altogether, like a little chorus admit that they deserved that ticking off. They had really stuffed up and they were going to fix it. You just watch them. Dr G, take them to the Aequian leader, and you will see.

Dr G 20:38
Wow. Okay, so they get themselves into formation. They pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They’re like, I’m ready now.

Dr Rad 20:44
Yep, they say the army collectively that they would happily submit to any punishment if they had not been able to capture the aequian camp by that very evening. Stop questioning the details. Lean into it. Lean into my narrative.

Dr G 21:04
I have some questions.

Dr Rad 21:06
Postumius is very happy to hear this, and says, All right, I think you’ve got the right mindset. So go and grab a burger, and then we’re going to be ready to go. Got it now, the Aequians had stationed themselves in a way where they were trying to cut off any possible retreat from Verrugo. They’re trying to be strategic here, the two armies clash. The battle starts during the day, but because there is enough moonlight, there must be a relatively full moon, the battle continues into the night. In fact, Livy says they could see just as well as during the day.

Dr G 21:51
Okay? Well, if that’s not a sign of impending pestilence I don’t know what is.

Dr Rad 21:56
Now. Shouts were heard in Verrugo by the other army stationed there. The Romans in the other army thought that their camp was being attacked, and they were incredibly alarmed. Aemilius, their commander, tries to calm them down, and then they flee in a chaotic way to Tusculum.

Dr G 22:15
Oh, really?

Dr Rad 22:18
Yeah, there’s a lot of chaotic fleeing happening in 394, BC, on every side.

Dr G 22:28
By moonlight?

Dr Rad 22:29
Yeah

Dr G 22:29
Quick, flee up that hill.

Dr Rad 22:32
Rumour now makes it to Rome that Postumius and his army have been annihilated because I guess the people who escaped from Verrugo have just heard sounds. Now, Postumius, once day has dawned, and there’s no real fear of any more ambushes from the Aequians, he rides out amongst his troops, reminding them of their vow, and gets the Romans all psyched up by doing this. You know, they’re like, Yeah, we did make a promise. The Aequians therefore did not stand a chance against the Romans at their full psychological powers. They were killed as they ran away from a wave of Roman fury. Apparently, this is what always happens when the Romans fight more with their anger than their valor, according to Livy, oh, really, okay, the aequian army is completely wiped out. Dr, G, I know I’ve said that about 50 times during this podcast, but I mean it this time.

Dr G 23:36
Do you?

Dr Rad 23:37
I really do

Dr G 23:38
All right, so the Aequians really cop it. The Romans are too fierce to be resisted, and the chaos has now become contagious in the opposite direction, has been caught by the enemy.

Dr Rad 23:53
It has but luckily, as the Romans back home are all in despair, Postumius gets to ride on into town with the best news ever that they were mistaken, that nothing bad was happening. It was just a battle. It was just a battle that was overheard, and the Romans have won. And so he gets to parade around and his little laurel wreath being like, hey, look me up.

Dr G 24:16
Fancy pants, all right.

Dr Rad 24:19
And that is all I have for 394, BCE.

Dr G 24:25
Well, that is a great story, and I’m glad you told it to me, because I really was like the Aequians just sort of came out of nowhere in my source material, and then they were gone in a flash. But it sounds like, with more detail, that that’s also what happens to them in Livy.

Dr Rad 24:42
It is really. There is more detail, but it’s a lot of confusing detail, because you don’t exactly know where everybody is in this story, apart from the people in Verrugo, it is a bit unclear exactly what is going on, apart from a reference to some hills that they run into. That’s about as specific as I can be, but certainly it seems like an excuse for the Romans to smack down the Aequians.

Dr G 25:10
Wow. So they’re doing well. This year. They’ve fought two wars on two fronts, and it’s a two from two in terms of victory. Wow.

Dr Rad 25:20
Should we venture into 393?

Dr G 25:44
I think we should

Dr Rad 25:59
Okay.

Dr Rad 26:00
Well, 393, then Dr G tell me who are our magistrates.

Dr G 26:05
Oh, look, this is very exciting. We have consuls now. It was so long ago since we had consoles that I went to check the last time Rome had consuls instead of military tribunes. So consular power was 409 BCE, so it’s been a while, over 16 years ago. So I don’t sure if any Romans, uh, remember what it’s like to be a consul, but here we are. We have Lucius Valerius Potitus. Now he was one of the guys that was listed as a legate-ambassador the previous year.

Dr Rad 26:42
True.

Dr G 26:43
So traveling on the vessel with the golden bowl. And he has been military tribune so many times. And he is joined by somebody who were not sure exactly of the praenomen, could be Publius, it could be Servilius, Cornelius Malugunensis.

Dr Rad 27:04
My least favourite name.

Dr G 27:07
Such a tongue twister. And he was previously military tribune in 397, so we’ve got a guy, Potitus, with a lot of experience, and we’ve got a Cornelii with a little bit of experience in the role. He’s been around a lot, yeah. And to offer some immediate spoilers to this, we also have suffect consuls for this year.

Dr Rad 27:31
Controversial, yes,

Dr G 27:33
Yes, it is early in the piece for there to be suffect consuls, so early that it means that something has gone terribly wrong with the consuls.

Dr Rad 27:44
Yeah. So suffect consuls basically come in when the original consuls, for some reason, cannot fulfill the terms of their magistracy.

Dr G 27:51
Exactly. And people might be more familiar with how the suffect consul works in the imperial period, where people just step away from the role and other people come to fill it in, that’s not what’s going on here. There has to be a really good reason for the consuls to not serve the whole year. So I’m guessing we’re about to find out why that might be but, but we have suffect consuls. We’ve got Lucius Lucretius, Tri cip pin itnus, –

Dr Rad 28:21
Tricipitinus.

Dr G 28:22
Oh. Tricipitinus, oh, I’m glad you’re here to help me. Lucius Lucretius Tricipitinus Flavus, this is his first time in the role, so a new kid on the block, but I suppose everybody has to have their first time, don’t they, and it won’t be his last.

Dr Rad 28:39
No.

Dr G 28:40
And Servilius Sulpicius Camerinus also first time in the role. So that’s that deal. And then we also have censors listed for this year. So I kind of foreshadowed that-

Dr Rad 28:55
It’s been a while since a good census.

Dr G 28:58
Yeah, I foreshadowed that in the previous episode that there’s definitely a censorship on the horizon. So Lucius Papirius Cursor is one of the censors, as is Gaius Julius Vopisci Illus. Notably, everybody mentioned so far is a patrician, and there is also a suffect censor. I know,

Dr Rad 29:25
Whaaaat?

Dr G 29:27
It is bad news all around for people, I think. Marcus Cornelius Maluginensis.

Dr Rad 29:35
Again?

Dr G 29:35
I know, I mean they keep popping up, don’t they? Is the suffect censor and there will be a reason for this as well, as we’re about to find out, Dr Rad.

Dr Rad 29:49
And then, isn’t there also a tribune of the plebs?

Dr G 29:53
If there is, I don’t have it listed.

Dr Rad 29:55
The tribune of the plebs, we also should mention, once again, we’re going to be talking about Titus. Sicinius in this year.

Dr G 30:02
Are we? Oh, see, I have him down for the next year, pretty sure. But, uh, well, I guess we’ll see.

Dr Rad 30:08
You will see, indeed. So in 393 Dr G, we are back thinking about this idea of resettlement. So the tribunes of the plebs had initially proposed back in 395 that some of the Roman population moved to Veii. They’ve been, apparently trying to push it ever since. The patricians are very much over my dead body about this whole situation. But we’re returning to this issue now. The plebeians have been trying to keep the people who are for the move today in office, as we know. That’s why Sicinius keeps coming up, because he was the guy with the original idea. The patricians want to make sure there are also going to be people who are against this move. The plebs, however, managed to get more of their preferred candidates into office, so more people who are going to be pro than against it. So once again, it seems that we’re seeing that there is a bit of a divide amongst the tribunes of the plebs, where there are some amongst their number who are amenable to patrician wheelings and dealings and willing to use their veto power for what the patricians are pushing for, whether it’s because they also agree, because, as we talked about, this whole patrician plebeian divide, it’s not as hard and fast as it sometimes seems. They might have class interests in common or political interests in common? Who knows, but we have seen this as a tactic that the patricians use for.

Dr G 31:50
Alright, so things, we’re getting to this kind of sticky point where maybe we’re going to see some movement on this issue in favor of the plebeians.

Dr Rad 32:00
We’re definitely going to see some movement on this issue. Now, this is why we have consuls this year, because the patricians decide that they’re going to get their revenge, because they’re very concerned about the types of characters that have managed to get into the office of tribune of the plebs. So they’re like, You know what? Forget it. No more. Mr. Nice guys. We’re not going to have military tribunes. We’re going to have consuls, God damn it. And there’s nothing that the plebeians hate more than consuls. We haven’t had them for ages out of respect, but since you are being so callous with our feelings, we’re just going to go ahead and do it so we can try and book you that way.

Dr G 32:37
Wow. Okay, so I mean, it doesn’t take much for the patricians to be upset with the tribune of the plebs. I would say that anytime we see tribune of the plebs mentioned, they’re not happy campers.

Dr Rad 32:48
No, basically if they open their mouth the patricians are usually upset.

Dr G 32:51
It does seem like a bit of a power move to put some consuls in. Does it work?

Dr Rad 32:59
Well, we definitely have, apparently, a suite of tribunes of the plebs who are very in favour of this motion to move some of the Romans today, the consuls had been elected specifically because they were the kind of men that the patricians knew would launch a vicious counter attack against any such move. And so every single person in Rome is caught up in this gigantic patrician versus plebeian smackdown. Unfortunately, right at this moment, a place called Vitelia, a Roman colony, is captured by the Aequians. Apparently, this was a colony that was set up within Aequian territory. So it makes sense that the Aequians wanted it back.

Dr G 33:47
Okay, I’m not really sure what to make of this. I mean, it makes sense for the Aequians to make a military move at this point in time. They’ve just suffered some defeats at the hands of the Romans. They’re probably not happy about that. So making some moves while the Romans seem to be preoccupied with their politics at home, seems like a good plan for them.

Dr Rad 34:10
My question is, Dr G, I just said to you that the Aequian army had been wiped from the face of the earth. How were they retaking this colony?

Dr G 34:17
I guess it’s the women and children doing all that.

Dr Rad 34:22
Now, luckily, the Aequians decide because they are treacherous bastards that they were going to attack at night time. However, this ended up playing out to the advantage of a lot of the colonists, because they managed to all head in a particular direction, which was pretty much clear of any Aequians. So most of them are not slaughtered in the streets or in their beds, but they actually manage to make their way back to Rome and Lucius, Lucretius, one of the consuls, is put in charge of dealing with this. He manages to defeat the Aequians, who just seem to be a massive pushover at this point in time and returned to Rome in glory, but he couldn’t enjoy it because there was something very disturbing awaiting him in his hometown. I try.

Dr G 35:16
Goodness me, this is kept becoming outrageous.

Dr Rad 35:19
Yeah

Dr G 35:20
A trial?

Dr Rad 35:21
A trial. It is the trial of two of the plebeian tribunes mentioned from earlier on. You might remember that when we first met Titus Sicinius, we also heard mention of tribunes of the plebs called Aulus Verginius and Quintus Pomponius. Now you might be been thinking to yourself, why am I listing these guys if they don’t do anything? Because this Dr G, because what happens after they serve? I see so they’re not serving in this year, they are not. What seems to have happened is these guys are apparently the colluders. They’re the ones that have been won over by the patrician faction and had been persuaded to use their veto powers to kill the bill about they earlier on, or at least to argue against it very strenuously. So the Senate being mostly patrician, we think, although we know that that’s not always the case, but they come together and agree that they need to defend these men because they were representing patrician interests. They were not accused of not having done their jobs, but the problem was that they had taken this stand against the proposed move to they so that’s why the patricians feel like they have to come to their defense. Now, the plebeians, of course, hate them with the passion of 1000 suns.

Dr G 36:50
Yeah. I mean, they’re getting in the way they’re supposed to be looking after the plebeians, but they’re doing anything, but

Dr Rad 36:55
Exactly now, because the plebeians are so passionate in their hatreds, these guys end up being found guilty in their trial, and they are each ordered to pay a fine of 10,000 mighty fine asses.

Dr G 37:13
Wow. Okay, so even with the patrician support, they’re not able to pull off exoneration.

Dr Rad 37:21
Well, see, here’s the thing. Dr G, it seems like the patricians had said that they should defend these guys, but how good was that defense? Really? I have no details here. Livy personally says that this verdict is ‘shameful’, and I’m quoting from my translation there, so he’s definitely on the side of the patricians here, and this is where Camillus comes back into our narrative. Camillus is particularly vocal saying, how could the plebs turn on their own tribunes like this? Especially because there’s a very worrisome implication, which they seem to have overlooked. But Camillus being the sharp little cookie that he is, rule follower as we know him to be, strict man always, he sees it. The implications is that the plebeians had actually kind of gone against some of the powers of the office of the tribune of the plebs, because by holding these guys as guilty of doing something, they’ve basically said that they’re not allowed to use their veto, because that’s all these guys did. They’re just like, nope, we’re not in favour of it. We veto this whole idea of moving today and by then attacking them, going after them, putting them on trial and finding them guilty. Camilla thinks that they have essentially taken away what has been a cornerstone of the power of this office all this time. He thinks that the plebeians would now find that the patricians would not put up with the cheek of the tribunes of the plebs, because why would they when they don’t have to? And Camillus also ticks off the consuls saying that they had not done anywhere near enough to shield waginius and Pomponius, who had got into this whole thing because of the patricians in the first place.

Dr G 39:19
Well, there are so many things that need to be said in response to this debacle.

Dr Rad 39:23
I know.

Dr G 39:26
Goodness me. Okay, first things first, when does the tribunate get its veto? We don’t know.

Dr Rad 39:34
We don’t know.

Dr G 39:34
We don’t we don’t think it’s this early, though. We don’t have reliable evidence for a while yet. So that’s our problem number one. Problem number two is Camillus entering the fray here to offer his moral perspective, because he’s been positioned as moral guy, so now he gets to stand up and do moral stuff all the time.

Dr Rad 39:58
Yes, yeah.

Dr G 39:59
And this. This feels like a very convenient twist in the narrative. Certainly, I think we can say for sure that if it is the case that these tribunes were working in collusion with the Senate in order to bring about a particular result that involved them not voting in favour of something that it would be appropriate for the Senate to look after them in the trial. The fact that they are fined anyway suggests that nobody looked after them very well, yeah, at the very least. So it was not worth it. So then, what is the lesson that we learn here? Never trust the Senate. Don’t. Like they’re they’re not going to be, they’re not going to have your back.

Dr Rad 40:46
Seriously, have you not learned to not trust the patricians already?

Dr G 40:53
They do not have your back, and they will not look after you, even when you vote in their favour. So if anything, I think this should be an exciting moment for the tribune of the plebs to realise how free they are in order to just pursue a really progressive agenda. And that is what I would advise them if I was Camillus in ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 41:19
Well, Dr G, it will not shock you to learn that there are many historians who would agree with you that this seems like a really weird occurrence, and we have no way of knowing, obviously, what actually happened and what this really represents. However, let’s unpack a couple of things here. So first of all, if this were true, this would be the only time in which a plebeian tribune is actually called into a trial because of their just like normal conduct during their terms of office. So that’s strange. That doesn’t usually happen. We’ve seen it happen with consuls and stuff before, but it does not usually happen with tribunes of the plebs. It also is a little bit similar to some previous cases that we have talked about, from 423, and 401, when we’re talking about consular tribunes who were prosecuted and find similar amounts, yes, so it’s possible that those sorts of details are maybe being borrowed here.

Dr G 42:22
Yeah, the 10,000 asses is a familiar trope for a fine, but maybe that’s what fines are. Maybe that’s the going rate.

Dr Rad 42:29
We don’t even believe that there are fines being issued at this point in time.

Dr G 42:33
Do they even have money? We’re still not sure exactly.

Dr Rad 42:36
Exactly. So a lot of these details are red flag.

Dr G 42:39
Where are they getting the asses from? Nobody knows.

Dr Rad 42:42
From my pants that’s where.

Dr G 42:43
They’re certainly not minting them.

Dr Rad 42:46
Can’t stop myself. All right. So the other thing is, if this Verginius is from the same family as a previous plebeian tribune from 461, this is a real break in family characteristics, because, to cast our minds all the way back to there, there was Verginius, who served as a tribune of the plebs in that era, and he ended up being responsible for the prosecution of Kaeso Quinctius, the son of Cincinnatus, who was that uber patrician douchebag who got sent into exile.

Dr G 43:20
Okay, I mean, we’re getting deep into the lore here, of like, what is happening at a gens level in terms of political priorities, because that’s the kind of patterns that the Romans really like. And if he’s not conforming to type, something’s up here.

Dr Rad 43:38
Yes. Now, as you know, in the past 10 or so years, there have definitely been some questions raised about, do we actually have accurate lists of all the magistrates for all the years? And the answer usually is, no, we do not.

Dr G 43:56
Do we have lists? We do. We have lists.

Dr Rad 43:59
We have lists.

Dr G 44:00
Do we trust them? To a certain extent.

Dr Rad 44:04
Yeah. Now what is possible is that there is a basic record of some sort of trial involving men with the name Verginius and Pomponius, and because our later writers don’t have records for magistracies like military tribunes or consuls with these names, they’ve thought, Oh, well, these guys must be plebeian tribunes, and they’ve constructed the narrative that way. However, it is possible that they actually served in some other sort of capacity, like maybe as a military tribune, and that’s what this trial is about, because that would be in keeping with what we have seen previously.

Dr G 44:49
I like this theory. It makes a reasonable amount of sense, and certainly we get this mention of these tribune of the plebs just a couple of times. And. And we don’t really know much more than than what is in Livy. So I’m curious about where he got the material from, because certainly it doesn’t come up in it, in the sources that I have access to.

Dr Rad 45:13
Now, to get back to my narrative, Dr G, Camillus, pontificating and constant irritating speechifying really irritates the plebs more and more every day, they are starting to dislike him. They are turning on him once again. Doesn’t help matters that Camillus is also egging the Senate on relentlessly to take a stand against this proposed motion. He doesn’t like this idea of anyone moving to vein this way. He’s like, You know what? Guys we’ve got to represent, we’ve got to take a strong stance. That means you need to be in the forum every day, every day, so that you are there and ready when the vote finally happens. Because if you stay ready, then you don’t have to get ready.

Dr G 45:59
Wow. It’s a bit like the lesson about walking in formation, isn’t it? You know, just it is, if you’re organized, it’s not ever going to be a problem.

Dr Rad 46:09
Boy Scouts all the way. Now he says you have to take a stand, because this whole motion is a strike against Roman gods, the Roman city, their very origins, which is really what the patricians said from the get go, but now it’s in Camillus mouth, after all, if Camillus were just thinking about himself, I mean, it would be good for they to be occupied. It would be a constant testament to his glory. If he was just concerned about himself, Dr G, he could be reminded of his awesomeness every day by gazing upon the representation of they that apparently would have been included in his triumph, if this were a triumph held many, many years later when that kind of thing happened and Livy’s getting confused, back on track, but it was sacrilege for Camillus to even think about that anachronistic detail. They after all, not only was it a conquered town, not only was it a loser, it had been deserted by its own gods. How could the Romans even consider leaving their own city for a place like that?

Dr G 47:20
I mean, it is the classic sort of rich person way of thinking, isn’t it, where you’re able to value things beyond the material world and your material situation, and to assume that those things are more valuable than people’s rights to have a life. Because it’s like, what people,

Dr Rad 47:41
What? What?

Dr G 47:42
What the plebeians

Dr Rad 47:43
Quality of life for all? I’m sorry I can’t make sense of the words coming out of your mouth right now.

Dr G 47:49
I know it’s outrageous, but the way that the plebeians are pushing for this is partly because they felt land strapped for a while. The whole last century has been an argument about releasing public land so it can be used once more by the public. So the idea that we’re now in a situation where some land has become available, like they went and conquered a whole other town.

Dr Rad 48:16
Why else would they be conquering this stuff, if not to use it?

Dr G 48:18
No, we’re just gonna let it sit there like a ruinous monument to Camillus’ glory. And it’s like,

Dr Rad 48:25
You see that? I conquered that.

Dr G 48:28
Yeah, that pile of rocks over there that was me.

Dr Rad 48:31
See that tunnel? That’s how I entered it.

Dr G 48:33
No!

Dr Rad 48:34
That’s what she said.

Dr G 48:35
Everybody just wants to have their own little farm and to do what they want, and now there’s this opportunity to have it more evenly distributed amongst the Roman population, and the rich guys are prancing around being like, under no circumstances will we ever allow this to happen, not in our backyard.

Dr Rad 48:56
Well, I don’t even know what it is they’re planning with it. I mean, is this because the patricians were sinisterly planning to make they their own. Like, what were they planning? There’s no counter to it, apart from the fact that this would be a grave dishonour to their own city. But, like, what else we gonna do with it? Guys?

Dr G 49:15
Yeah,

Dr Rad 49:15
Just leave it sitting there?

Dr G 49:16
This is like the classic. We assassinated Caesar, and now we’re not really sure what happens next?

Dr Rad 49:21
I actually, I really do think that the patricians must have been planning to take this over themselves, and they just irritated that the plebs want it anyway. Nonetheless, the leading senators, other rich dudes, so moved by Camillus speeches that they all come together, young, old. Doesn’t matter, Dr G, they unite. And so when the law comes forward, they are all ready in the forum, and they spread out amongst the tribes, because it’s the tribes who are going to be voting for this. And as we know, they vote tribe by tribe, like as a group, and say whether. They’re for or against this particular law now, they take a slightly unusual tactic for rich, powerful dudes. Rather than threatening, murdering, beating other people in their tribes, they actually try and talk them into it. They try and persuade them with their words, Dr G, and they even resort to tears and begging in their effort to convince them – don’t leave Rome. We’ve all fought so hard for it for generations. Look around you because we’re in the forum – look at all the temples, and they basically guilt trip the other people in their tribes. They’re like, guys, we belong here. This stuff, these gods, we all belong here. Don’t take this stuff to Veii. It will be like they actually conquered Rome rather than the other way around. You’re getting it all mixed up. It’s all backwards. This is not the natural order of things now, because the patricians did not resort to violence, as they so often have in the past, but begged and importantly, brought in the gods. The vote was defeated. However, it was close. Dr, G, apparently only one more tribe voted against it than for it.

Dr G 51:34
Interesting. This is definitely not the direction my sources take on this.

Dr Rad 51:40
Okay. Well, I’ve only got a little bit more detail here that I might quickly relate. Just to round this off, the senators are so chuffed, so elated by the fact that this law has been defeated. The consuls, the very next day, put forward a decree that is passed in the Senate that seven iugera of land from Veii should be given to every pleb, you know, basically to every freeborn man. And this would hopefully entice them, and this is a really left field detail to have children, because I guess they know that there’s something out there waiting for them, that they actually have the means to support them. But it’s just interesting that they throw the kids detail in there. Because I was like, are we talking about like a failing population here? And this is certainly what some of the later academics have interpreted. They’re like, is there some sort of manpower crisis going on here. Are we trying to create new family units or something to take over these parcels of land that are being passed out because to compare seven iugera is a lot more than what has previously been handed out. So for example, when the whole Labici situation was being sorted out, they were only given two iugera, so this is a lot more, and it also seems to be kind of what they wanted in the first place, which was some of the land of Veii.

Dr G 53:19
Well, this is the thing. And so, yeah, to jump in with a little bit of detail from Diodorus Siculus, he just goes into this description of the Romans portioning out allotments of the territory of they sure each holder is given four plethora, which is a Greek unit of measurement. And I assume, let’s assume, for the sake of convenience, that that’s about equivalent to seven Roman iugera

Dr Rad 53:49
Sure

Dr G 53:49
But they’re given a reasonable chunk of land, and the idea that there might be a suggestion of please make some babies, may be partly connected with the idea that if you have the land and you’re able to farm and you’re able to subsist, you will be able to also then engage in child rearing and production, because you have a sense that you’re able to survive and to create enough to do that.

Dr Rad 54:16
Sure.

Dr G 54:16
So that might be what’s happening there, but it does sound very much like the plebeians are getting what it is that they asked for. Because in order to farm the land of Veii, you would obviously have to go there to do it.

Dr Rad 54:31
Yeah.

Dr G 54:32
It doesn’t farm itself. It doesn’t sit there idly, and then you pop up, and it’s like some sort of remarkable paradise where it’s all produced itself. If you don’t go and work it, it’s not going to do anything. So does this mean that the vote was defeated by one tribe, or does it mean that Livy’s really clutching at straws to try and make the patrician perspective the dominant perspective? And to not have them have this loss partly, maybe in light of the things that happened later in the republic that he’s aware of, and he wants to position this in a really particular way, I do wonder.

Dr Rad 55:13
Oh, there’s definitely a lot of late Republican undertones to everything going on here.

Dr G 55:20
I suspect so. I suspect so. And having said that, the other thing that seems to come up is this idea of pestilence, which maybe feeds, in a little bit, to the concerns about children as well, if you’ve got a generational issue. Okay, so the Fasti Capitolini lists the four consuls, the two initial consuls, and then the suffect consuls. And the suggestion seems to be that, potentially, the first two were elected incorrectly and problematic. But the suggestion with the censors, because one of them gets replaced, is that one of them dies in office, which is a problem.

Dr Rad 56:07
Yes.

Dr G 56:08
And it’s such a problem that Dionysus of Halicarnassus actually mentions this idea and talks about this pestilence visiting Rome. There’s a lack of rain. There’s been severe droughts, and we know that Rome has been going through some of this stuff a few years ago now, but it seems to be back on the cards. Orchards aren’t producing fruit, grain isn’t coming to fruition for a proper harvest, and everything is a little bit suspect, and it seems like people are eating the food, and there’s something wrong with it as well. So it’s not just a pestilence that is spreading, but it seems to be something that people are getting from eating poorly as a result of the harvest not going well, right? So some people end up with pustules breaking out on their skin, and these turn into really large ulcers.

Dr Rad 57:07
Ughhh

Dr G 57:08
That kind of, that kind of pestilence, yeah, like plague, like pestilence, and people basically are scratching their flesh down to the bone is how it’s described.

Dr Rad 57:21
Uggh

Dr G 57:23
It is, that is how severe and painful this process is for people. So while this is happening, it seems like maybe either the consuls are elected incorrectly, or they die in office. Seems like a potential.

Dr Rad 57:38
Well, certainly it’s one of the suffect consuls who takes charge of situation with the Aequians.

Dr G 57:44
yeah, and so, yeah, whatever is happening there like Rome is not in a good way. So beyond the disputes and the protests and the speechifying and the Camillus standing up and doing his business, it seems like things aren’t going very well this year in a physical, fundamental way. And the only other thing that I have on this year is that there is a whole series of problems that Rome has that do relate to warfare. So the war with the Aequii, they take a city called Liphlus.

Dr Rad 58:27
Terrible name.

Dr G 58:28
It’s a terrible name, and we don’t know where it is. And they also apparently start a new war with the people of Velitrae, because apparently they were revolting.

Dr Rad 58:39
They are disgusting. I didn’t want to say, but since you said it.

Dr G 58:42
First, that’s that’s how they’ve been described. Velitrae is an ancient Volscian city, so it’s kind of adjacent to Aequian territory. It’s nearby. And there is also a city called Satricum, which revolts from the Romans as well. Satricum is nearby to Velitrae, just to the south of the Alban Hills near the Pontine Marshes. So there is a whole series of things that are going wrong for Rome. At this point, it would seem they’ve won Veii but they seem to be having problems to the south, all over the place, and they also send a colony to Cercii. Now –

Dr Rad 59:30
You’re welcome.

Dr G 59:31
Thank you. Thank you. Cercii a becomesCirceii, which becomes San Felice Circeo, which is known as a bit of a Roman getaway beach town these days, but it’s quite for further south as well. It’s on a southern promontory. And so whatever is happening in this southern area doesn’t seem to be great. So the desperate measures taken with Veii may be a response to other issues that they’re having.

Dr Rad 1:00:02
The manpower issue is suddenly making a lot of sense.

Dr G 1:00:07
Yes, a manpower issue does make sense. If there is a pestilence war on multiple fronts, they’re losing more men than they’re breeding. It’s not great.

Dr Rad 1:00:15
No. And dare I say it? Dr G, perhaps their attention has been on the north a little too long.

Dr G 1:00:22
Yes, it does seem like things are now starting to get out of hand to the south. And to close out this year, I also have some details about ‘Meanwhile in Sicily’, my side series. Meanwhile in Sicily, so there are pirates, there are. There’s plenty of them. And then there are tyrants as well, including this, Dionysus, the Tyrant of the Syracusans. And he has decided, on the back of his great victory, defeating Magon of the Carthaginians a couple of years ago, now that he’s going to launch an offensive against the Greeks in southern Italy, because he doesn’t like them either.

Dr Rad 1:01:02
Uh oh.

Dr G 1:01:03
Yeah, he’s got the manpower. He’s got 20,000 infantry, 1000 cavalry, and 120 ships. So let’s think about it Sicily, very small island, very close to Italy proper. The Romans sent one ship with a gold bowl. This guy is just sitting around with he was 120 ships in Sicily just waiting to launch them at somebody, and that’s not counting any of the other islands around there as well, with people who love ships. So the Romans, did they take a risk? They certainly did. One ship. We’ll just sail through the Straits of Messina. It’ll be fine. Nobody will notice us.

Dr Rad 1:01:44
Grab some gelato. It’d be great.

Dr G 1:01:45
Yeah, delicious. So Dionysus takes his first offensive against the Rhegians. Now, this is the city that goes on to be Reggio Calabria. So it’s basically the city that is in on the opposite side of the Messina strait. So very close you can see it from Sicily. You look over and you’re like, there are people over there. And if you’re Dionysus of the Syracusans, you’re like, I’m gonna kill ’em! So he sails over there, full pelt, crosses over there, then does a bit of a land attack as well, heads over to Locris, which is on the east coast of the same little bit of the foot of the boot, and he’s sort of flailing around in there, causing a mess for everybody. And while he’s doing that, the people of Rhegium are calling out for support. So then a whole bunch of ships, 60 ships, get launched from a place called Croton. Now, Croton is also on the east side of the foot of the boot, famous, mostly because it’s the home of Pythagoras.

Dr Rad 1:03:02
Get out of town. He was born in the boot of Italy?

Dr G 1:03:04
Yeah, that’s where he lived. Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:03:07
I never liked math.

Dr G 1:03:08
Pythagoras, everybody’s like, he’s a Greek. And I was like, Sure, but like, Magna Graecia, please.

Dr Rad 1:03:13
Yeah.

Dr G 1:03:14
So yeah

Dr Rad 1:03:15
So what are we just handing these citizenship cards out to anybody now?

Dr G 1:03:19
Apparently we are. Croton was founded by the Greeks ages and ages ago, around about 710. Pythagoras lives around, what, circa 530 and now we’re in this situation where, you know, 100 plus years later, it’s time for an attack from Dionysus, the tyrant of Syracuse.

Dr Rad 1:03:45
Guy sounds like he’s going to be an ongoing problem.

Dr G 1:03:47
Uh, yes, there is a reason why I’m telling you these stories, because eventually it’s going to matter. Eventually it will matter. He gets into a whole sea battle with these 60 triremes that are sent from Croton. He narrowly escapes in his own vessel eventually, but he loses a whole bunch of people during this naval attack, and the Rhegians are bringing their ships in, but he loses his ships in a strong wind, so he eventually has to retreat. So that’s a bit of a problem for him. He gets out of there. But in the meantime, what he has done is he’s managed to also set up an alliance with the Leucani. Before he’s had to take his forces back to Syracuse. Right now, the Leucani are the first Italic peoples that you encounter in Italy, if you’re moving from the south up, okay, they’re an Italic people. They speak Oscan, and they are sitting just above where this Magna Graecia stuff is going on. So they’re interacting with these people all the time. But they also consider themselves their own people, and they’re they consider themselves be native Italians as well. So. So he manages to form an alliance with this block, and while he’s still figuring out what he’s going to do with the whole shoe of Italy, now that he’s had to head back to Sicily with his tail between his legs. So it’s not over for him, I don’t think, but he’s he feels like he’s made some gains, even though it’s not quite as good as he would like it to be. And that is 393.

Dr Rad 1:03:47
Okay, well, Dr G, I think you know what that means. It is time for the Partial Pick!

Dr Rad 1:03:47
So, Dr G, tell us what is the partial pick all about?

Dr G 1:03:47
The partial pick is about seeing how Rome gets along when measured by its own sense of what is good and reasonable. So there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. We will see how they do.

Dr Rad 1:03:47
All right. Dr, G, what is our first category?

Dr G 1:03:47
Military clout.

Dr Rad 1:03:47
Okay. I mean, there’s a decent amount of this flying about. It seems a little confusing, but it’s there.

Dr G 1:03:47
Okay, I think it has to be balanced by the chaos. There’s the there’s the lack of formation, there’s the running away.

Dr G 1:04:54
Temporarily. Dr, G, I mean, come on, they were probably barely out the gate.

Dr G 1:06:31
Well, I mean, it can’t have. They made great victories. I’m not sure that they have. And we also have to take account of the fact that the South seems to be revolting,

Dr Rad 1:06:40
Yeah, look, there definitely seems to be issues that are not mentioned in this year, if the Livy for sure, but from Livy’s point of view, it’s a pretty good year.

Dr G 1:06:53
Have they lost more than they’ve won?

Dr Rad 1:06:55
I don’t think so. I think that they have managed to hold the line against the Aequians in Livy’s account and not in other accounts.

Dr G 1:07:09
Intriguing. All right, I’d be willing to give them a, I think I’d give them about a four.

Dr Rad 1:07:14
Yeah, okay, fair enough. It’s nothing stupendous. Let’s face it, yeah, it’s not great. It’s not, although there is that, you know, battle in the moonlight.

Dr G 1:07:23
Oh, well, yes.

Dr Rad 1:07:25
You can try to resist. Okay, but yeah, four, I’m happy with four. I don’t think it’s anything spectacular by any means. And really could have used a bit more detail Livy to make sense of how this all actually happened.

Dr G 1:07:42
Yeah, I think Livy’s clutching at straws. That’s what it’s that’s what it sounds like from your retelling of it. The second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:07:50
Okay, hmm, not really. No, no. There’s just a lot of warfare, people revolting, people being captured, again, new colonies, old colonies. It’s all over the place.

Dr G 1:08:01
Yeah, no, yeah. Third category is expansion.

Dr Rad 1:08:07
Noooo, but kind of if we believe Diodorus: Cercii.

Dr G 1:08:13
Oh, yeah, they do send out for a colony. I could give them one for that. I suppose

Dr Rad 1:08:20
it’s a new colony.

Dr G 1:08:23
I don’t know how. No, I don’t think it’s new. So the same place, it suggested that Tarquinius Superbus is actually the one who founds a colony there initially, and then it gets taken by the Volsci, when the Volscians are under leadership of Coriolanus

Dr Rad 1:08:41
Right

Dr G 1:08:41
So that’s going way back in time, and the Romans haven’t had a chance to really deal with that for for the longest time, because they’ve never been able, for 100 years, they haven’t had a chance to do they haven’t been able to get that far south again, so unless they found a new way down. But yeah, there’s this idea that it’s been about 100 years since Rome has had any influence there.

Dr Rad 1:09:08
Fine, one point.

Dr G 1:09:11
Okay, the fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:09:14
I don’t think so. I mean, Camillus is certainly taking a very high, mighty, mighty stance a lot of the time, but it’s not really the same as what he did in the previous episode with the Philistines.

Dr G 1:09:28
I think the question would be, would the patricians label what Camillus does in this year in terms of the speechifying and all of that? Would they classify that as virtus?

Dr Rad 1:09:43
You always tell me that I can’t count speechifying as virtus.

Dr G 1:09:47
Excellent. That’s and our last category is the Citizen Score.

Dr Rad 1:09:54
Oft. Okay, well, this really depends on whether you’re following your sources or mine, because mine, it doesn’t seem. Too bad yours. It seems absolutely horrific.

Dr G 1:10:04
The pestilence is not great, yeah, it is described in horrifying terms by Dionysus of Halicarnassus. But they, I do have some suggestion that they’re, they are allocated some land from Veii.

Dr Rad 1:10:20
That’s true. There is the land. So, yeah, it’s not all bad news. Okay, so maybe like five, I don’t know, I guess. How do you score scratching your skin down to the bone? Hmm.

Dr G 1:10:38
It’s a two. Could have been worse!

Dr Rad 1:10:42
Yeah, it’s not great look. It’s It doesn’t sound great, but the land would be important, because it does feel like they kind of got somewhat what they were after. I mean, I know that what they were after was really about actually moving half of everyone to they it wasn’t about having land allotments, at least in the way that it’s represented in Livy. So I do understand there is a difference, but at the same time, is there that much difference? I remain unconvinced of that.

Dr G 1:11:16
Yes.

Dr Rad 1:11:17
Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Dr G 1:11:20
Neither do I, but,

Dr Rad 1:11:22
Oh, we do have the victory over the treacherous tribunes of the plebs, if we believe that that’s what happened.

Dr G 1:11:30
So in a political sense, then we might be talking it’s it’s probably gone all right. But if you caught the pestilence, things have gone pretty badly, so maybe you’re three,

Dr Rad 1:11:42
Yeah, okay, three it is, which means, dr, G, that once again, I am safely counting on just my own hands, because the Romans have come out with eight out of a potential 50 golden eagles.

Dr G 1:11:55
Goodness me. Sad, sad.

Dr Rad 1:12:01
I think the question is, because, if you’re relying on Dionysius of Halicarnassus for some of these details, you know that Livy and Dionysius don’t always match up. And see, I actually haven’t read that far ahead of 393 at this point in time. So it’ll be interesting to see if some of the details that you’ve mentioned in this year come up at another point of Livy. That’s what I’m curious.

Dr G 1:12:22
Yeah, it’s quite possible that the pestilence comes up next year, maybe Livy,

Dr Rad 1:12:28
maybe we’ll see, and maybe Livy’s Just like, you know what? It’s too gross. I don’t want to talk about illnesses,

Dr G 1:12:35
I’m done with pestilence, not this time.

Dr Rad 1:12:35
I’m over it. I’d rather talk about Camillus. Camila is a great guy. He’s my hero. That’s who I want to talk about.

Dr G 1:12:41
Yeah, it is reading a bit like a hagiography. I have to say.

Dr Rad 1:12:46
Yeah, everybody’s talking about me.

Dr G 1:12:51
Well, it has been a pleasure, as always, Dr Rad.

Dr Rad 1:12:55
Indeed. And I’m really glad that we haven’t had massive technological issues like we’ve been having recently.

Dr Rad 1:13:00
Fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

Dr Rad 1:13:03
All right, I’ll see you in 392.

Dr G 1:13:13
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and transcript in our show notes. Over at partialhistorians.com. We offer a huge thank you to you, if you’re one of our illustrious Patreon supporters, if you enjoy the show, we’d love your support in a way that works for you. Leaving a nice review really makes our day. We’re on Ko-fi for one off or ongoing donations or Patreon, of course. Our latest book, Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire, is published through Ulysses Press. It is full of stories that the Romans probably don’t want you to know about them. This book is packed with some of our favourite tales of the colorful history of ancient Rome. Treat yourself or an open minded friend to Rome’s glories, embarrassments and most salacious claims with Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 163 – Camillius’ Conniptions appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

In this episode, we continue to follow the adventures of that most amazing of Romans: Marcus Furius Camillus! This is one of his real shining moments of virtus.

Although the Romans have just conquered Veii, there was tension on those mean city streets. The patricians and plebeians were locked in a disagreement over what they should do with this new territory.

However, Camillus had military matters to attend to. He was placed in charge of subduing Veii’s allies, the Faliscans. This was no easy task as the enemy was well-prepared and the city of Falerii was easily defended.

Camillus was making some headway, but it looked as though this conflict was going to turn into another length siege. Boo!

Fortune sided with Camillus as the leading school teacher in Falerii decided to betray his people. He was in charge of the children of all the most important families in town, and what better way for kids to get exercise than to be marched right into the Roman camp?

We don’t want to give too much away, but what Camillus does next will make you swoon like a love-sick teen. Oh, and it also gave us our next idea for a T-shirt, so thanks Camillus! You sure are a swell guy!

M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 386, 384, 381

L. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Medullinus (Pat) Cos. 413, 409, Mil. Tr. c. p. 407, 405, 398, 397, 395, 391  

C. Aemilius TI. F. TI. N. Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 391

L. Valerius L. f. L. n. Poplicola (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 389, 387, 383, 380

Sp. Postumius – f. – n. Albinus Regillensis (Pat)

P. Cornelius -f. -n (——–) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 397 or 395

[?] Catlus Verus

Q. Pomponius

T. Sicinius

A. Verginius

L. Valerius Potitus (Pat) Cos. 393, 392, Mil. Tr. c. p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398

L. Sergius (Fidenas) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 397

A. Manlius (Vulso Capitolinus) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 405, 402, 397

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects by Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:15
Music. Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:18
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr rad and

Dr G 0:33
I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:00
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G.

Dr Rad 1:08
And I am Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:11
We are about to launch in to the year 394, BCE. But before we do that, I think we just need a little bit of a recap. Where are we up to in Roman history? What has been going on? Dr, rad,

Dr Rad 1:27
well, it’s as usual, has been quite tense. Dr G, there’s been a lot of drama after the capture of a which you might not have been expecting, because it seems like that should be a happy time for everyone.

Dr G 1:39
Yeah, you would have thought so. But it seems that with every victory comes an additional cost, sometimes a burden to the physical self, sometimes a burden to the psyche of Rome.

Dr Rad 1:53
Well, they’ve definitely been fighting over the issue of the tithe that Camillus promised he had vowed that he was going to give a 10th of whatever they captured in terms of the booty and that sort of thing to the gods, specifically to Apollo. And this turned out to be a huge issue, because he forgot to mention that until after everyone had got their stuff and then gone out and spent it, or used it, or whatever it was they were doing with it.

Dr G 2:21
Yeah, it seems to be a huge issue. And part of the reason why it’s such a big problem is that the promise was based on gold value. So it’s not just the old exchanging of the leather boots that has been going on for decades now when we talk about booty, but Rome has come into some serious prize money, essentially through the sacking of Veii and Camillus has forgotten to mention to anybody that 1/10 of that needed to be reserved for Apollo because of his promise to the gods that if they helped him out, he would give them a gift in return. And all of a sudden, we find some very angry Roman soldiers on our hands, and they’re angry with reason, good reason, I would say, Absolutely.

Dr Rad 3:07
We also have this drama over the colonies. So the Senate had suggested setting up a colony on the border of Volscian territory and Rome, I believe. And the plebs were like, You can’t fool us. We know that that’s crappy land. You’re just trying to distract us. What we want is they. We want to make they an extension of Rome. We want half the population to go and live there. And the Senate were horrified by that suggestion, and so there’s been some fighting between the patricians and the plebeians over what is going to happen to the actual city of they

Dr G 3:49
Well, I guess I wonder if 394 will lead us any closer to some conclusions about the rising internal issues that Rome seems to be Having on the back of a very big military victory,

Dr Rad 4:03
I’m really looking forward to the hissy fits that are going to be thrown. Dr, G,

Dr G 4:08
Well, without further ado, let’s launch into 394, BCE,

Dr Rad 4:22
ah, all right. Dr, G, it is 394, BCE, and I would love you to tell me all about the magistrates for this year. Oh,

Dr G 4:49
we have a whole bunch of people in power, in various positions. We do. It is a big year. So we’ll start with the military tribunes with consular power. Hour. This has been a pretty common occurrence year on year for a while now that rather than having consoles, we have a slightly lesser prestige position that can be filled by more than two people. And the idea is, at some point, maybe we get some plebeians involved. But yet again, we find ourselves in a situation where it’s all patricians in the position of military Tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 5:30
I wish I could say I’m surprised. Dr, G, but my mouth is firmly closed. My jaw is very far from the floor. You’re

Dr G 5:37
like, tell me something I don’t know exactly.

Dr Rad 5:41
I’m just resigned to the fact that this is just how it is now.

Dr G 5:44
Yeah, not only are there more positions, but that just means we have to deal with more patricians. Great. Yeah, fantastic.

Dr Rad 5:51
Yeah. In fact, the plebeians have come up with a very good way of actually giving more patricians more power. Really,

Dr G 6:00
it’s working out really well. So we have first cab off the rank is the very famous at this point, Marcus Furius Camillus,

Dr Rad 6:11
dictator extraordinaire, from 396,

Dr G 6:15
Yep, he’s back again. We’ll see how that pans out for him. He is joined by Lucius Furius Medullinus, yeah, and this guy’s had a whole bunch of positions. His name is very familiar. There is also Caius Aemilius Mamercinus. This is his first appearance. Why? Hello there, young man. But from a distinguished family, a very distinguished family. The Aemilii are one of the oldest and best families. Thank you very much. Lucius Valerius Poplicola, also first appearance,

Dr Rad 6:50
again, distinguished family, though very distinguished family.

Dr G 6:53
The Valerii in particular, this line of the Poplicola. Yes, they’ve had quite a previous century. So good to see them hanging out still. They are joined by Spurius Postumius Albinus Regillenisis, also his first appearance. But again, the postumii, very, very prestigious family and also a this is where we start to get into the hazy territory we have a Publius Cornelius, but we’re missing part of the name. So because we’ve only got the prinomen pubulus, and we’ve got the gens name, the nomen Cornelius, this kind of leaves it wide open as to which Publius Cornelius we could have on our hands. And this has led to me consulting the digital prospography of the Roman Republic. Have fun, everybody. It’s out there online. You can check it out for yourselves. And so we have this Publius Cornelius, and the speculation is that it’s either Publius Cornelius Cossus, also a patrician or Publius Cornelius Scipio, who was previously in the role in 395, so doing a sort of a double duty there and then we also, in addition to that, have what might be a seventh military Tribune with consular power. I know an odd and prime number. I shall not stand for it Rome, a guy called Catlus Verus, who is only cited by Diodorus Siculus, which I know might make you think untrustworthy, probably not a real person. It

Dr Rad 8:41
sounds like a weird addition to have a seventh one. It does to be his name on top of it. Yes.

Dr G 8:48
Not only numerically, are we in uncharted territory in terms of how many military tribunes with consular power we have at this point, but also the name doesn’t quite stack up to anything we’ve ever seen before. So that doesn’t help us place this person, especially

Dr Rad 9:03
amongst like, we’ve got like, the Aemilii, we’ve got Servilii, we’ve got Cornelii, we’ve got Postumii, all names that I am very familiar with, Dr G, but throw this guy into the mix, yeah,

Dr G 9:15
who is this guy? Who is this Catlus Verus, and what is going on here? Who’s

Speaker 1 9:21
that man seven around with you?

Dr G 9:27
Apt, very apt, Diodorus Siculus has some questions to answer, but we can’t take him off the list because our evidence is so so little most of the time that we’re just gonna leave him there with

Dr Rad 9:40
a huge question mark, fair enough, dangerous.

Dr G 9:43
So far so good. Then we have the tribune of the plebs. Now these three names will be very familiar, because they all served in the previous year. All re elected, apparently, Titus Sicinius, Quintus Pomponius, and Aulus Verginius. This

Dr Rad 10:01
is something that was foreshadowed by Livy, because, remember, there wasn’t really a resolution to this question of a colony at Veii, or extending Rome into Veii, or dividing Rome in two and setting up another Rome at Veii. However, it was they were pitching it. These guys were integral to that, and you will see how this all plays out. Dr, G, it’s gonna be interesting. Because, well, you know, I don’t want to say too much, but they might not all be playing for the same team. Oh, I’m not speaking about their sexuality. I was gonna

Dr G 10:33
say, and I was like, who’s batting for the other side? And also, I approve wholeheartedly. All right, so the tribute of the plebs. We’ll see how that pans out for this year. I’m interested to see where that goes, because I’m pretty sure your it sounds like your evidence is trending in that direction, whereas my evidence might not be. And then we also have a category that is labeled as legates, slash ambassadors, people who have been delegated a specific task by Presumably, the military tribunes. And this relates to the infamous golden bowl of Apollo yes, that has been put together from the 10% that everybody has complained about so bitterly. This includes guys like Lucius, Valerius Potitus, who is a very well known military Tribune with constable power from previous years. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who served in 397 and Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus, also previously a holder of the military Tribune position. So they’re all people with deep political experience, all very well known. This may be why they’ve been delegated this very important task.

Dr Rad 11:52
Absolutely, it is all right. Dr, G Well, are you ready for the drama of 394, BCE, I really am.

Dr G 12:01
And do you want to know why? Why? Because I do have some source material, including Dionysus of Halicarnassus.

Dr Rad 12:10
Oh, really get out of town. Here’s Ben. Oh, my God. Well, this truly is a banner year for us. So, as you know, tents in Rome. And therefore we had the plebeians pushing hard to have the same tribunes of the plebs elected, because they thought that that was how they were going to get this whole division between Rome and Veiicity colony thing happening that they were keen on. But we also, of course, have the patricians who have literally said that they would rather die than see that happen. And so they also want to make sure that they’ve got people who are Uber patricians serving as military tribunes. So the senators, of course, push hard to get none other than Camillus elected, saying that they need his military expertise. I mean, it’s got nothing to do with this whole very issue. It’s just that there’s, you know so much war going on,

Dr G 13:01
we really just need somebody who’s got the chops exactly now,

Dr Rad 13:06
the tribune of the plebs, they clock this, and they make sure that they stay as quiet as little mices and restrain themselves until camillas has to go off and fight with the Faliscans, because, lest we forget, Dr G in the previous year, Rome had to mop up the whole vase situation by dealing with vase allies like Capena and the Falerii. And so that’s what Camillus is doing, because the people of capenna had surrendered, but the Falsicans, they had not. The Faliscans are holding out. Classic, they are holding out. They sound adorable, but they’re clearly no pushover. However, they didn’t really accomplish very much, apparently. And this seems very typical for the plebeians in Livy’s version of things, the people had kind of cooled off on the whole idea, after being very fiery about it the year before, where it seemed like they were actually going to murder people in the name of this bill that they were proposing. Instead, the tribunes of the plebs don’t make much headway. Meanwhile, Camillus is off earning further glory for himself against the Falsicans, and I kind of feel like his reputation needs this Dr G, because the whole triumph after they and then the whole tithing thing, he hasn’t done him any favors. Yes,

Dr G 14:25
people do think he overstepped with his very fancy triumph, and not to mention the whole situation with the 10% and forgetting the promise business. So he does need something at this point to kind of restore his reputation. So handily, he is quite a military expert, so maybe going against the Falsicans is a way for him to gain redemption.

Dr Rad 14:50
I think that’s the idea, perhaps. Now the city of Falerii is like they itself, also in quite a strategic position. Dr, G, I don’t know if you’ve ever visited that. Actually, I

Dr G 15:00
have not, but I hear that it’s sort of on a rocky outcrop, so it’s pretty easily defensible. Is that correct? I’m

Dr Rad 15:07
actually going to quote Ogilvie here, because I have also never been there, but apparently it commands both the Tiber highway and the overland routes to Etruria.

Dr G 15:16
Oh, okay, it’s at the crossroads. Very important then, yeah,

Dr Rad 15:21
but you’re right. You’re right about it standing on a narrow rocky outcrop,

Dr G 15:25
it seems pretty in keeping with this area. So in this similar situation with Veii, is that they’re they’re built on the top of these nice tooth outcrops that have a good commanding position, so they can look down upon anybody approaching them and have a view over the landscape to see what’s going on. So, yeah, makes sense, yeah.

Dr Rad 15:45
And that’s exactly why Rome wants it, I think, very much like they it’s in a strategic situation for trade, like, if the Romans control this, I think things will be better for them, and it’s also easy enough to defend once they’ve captured it. All

Dr G 16:01
right, okay, so it’s just the tricky part they need to do. Then it’s just a little bit of capturing,

Dr Rad 16:07
exactly, just the capturing. So at first the Faliscans do it sounds like a very sensible thing in this situation, given what we’ve just been talking about. And they stay safe behind their walls, safe within the city. Oh,

Dr G 16:20
well, hello. I think we’ll just stay over here and you can have fun wasting yourselves outside of our city walls.

Dr Rad 16:26
Yes, and Camillus, he knows what’s that. He decides that he’s going to try and provoke them into coming out to defend the territory around them, because he starts attacking the surrounding fields and farms.

Dr G 16:40
Okay, this is a pretty classic siege tactic, because you don’t actually want to do a siege. You would much rather have an open pitch battle that you can then win and then take the geography. So really, the key for the Faliscans in this scenario is to resist as much as possible the temptation to leave their city. But they do leave

Dr Rad 17:00
their city. Dr, G however, they don’t want to go too far away. They know they’ve got defensible walls behind them, so they set up their camp only about a mile outside the walls of their city, thinking that the Romans probably couldn’t get too close to them, because it would just be too difficult because of the way that the ground was. It’s described as being rough and broken, in other words, uneven, too difficult in the stiletto heels that the Romans would be wearing for such an occasion, and also, the roads up there would be too narrow and steep. So it wasn’t going to be easy to get to their camp if they just stayed close enough to the city. Okay? So

Dr G 17:38
for Rome to take this camp, they’d really have to spread their forces, really quite thin, to a degree that presumably the Falsicans could easily pick them off exactly.

Dr Rad 17:48
Now, Camillus has a prisoner, and he forces this prisoner to act as his guide. The Romans then leave their camp under the cover of darkness, and that enables them when the sun rises the second that it crosses that horizon, bam. The Romans are in a brand new position, and the Faliscans are like, What the hell. How did they get there? I blinked, and they moved, and it was a much better position for an attack. How dare they Yeah. I mean, it must have seemed like, you know, David Copperfield or something like,

Dr G 18:22
what is this sorcery? Now,

Dr Rad 18:25
this sounds very reminiscent of the tunnel idea. Dr G Camillus had his men working in three shifts so that there was never not work being done building a rampart. And if they weren’t building then they were on guard.

Dr G 18:38
Okay, okay. So far so good. Very siege, like, all right, yep,

Dr Rad 18:42
the Falsicans decided that they’re going to try and stop the building from going ahead. But he managed to defeat them, and the Faliscans got so panicked after this loss that they ran right past their camp. Apparently they didn’t even see it. They’re like, I’m not stopping there. I’m going all the way to the city. Just absolutely panicked, running, wait a minute,

Dr G 19:01
surely they would have seen their own camp. Well,

Dr Rad 19:04
look, it doesn’t say they didn’t see their own camp, but they were just like, Nope, that’s not good enough. That’s not safe enough. I’m heading straight to the city.

Dr G 19:10
I need real walls, not these wooden Palisades. Yes, I think

Dr Rad 19:15
they sensed that that was going to be the safest place for them, unfortunately, and they were wrong. It’s Camillus that we’re dealing with here, and many of them are killed before they managed to make it back to the town. Fascinating, I know now what this means is that the camp was captured, and of course, including all the booty, which is handed over to the quaestors.

Dr G 19:35
Okay, okay, so if we’re talking about a military camps booty, then we’re back to like you found a nice pair of leather shoes, again,

Dr Rad 19:42
maybe a new sword, although presumably they had the swords with them when they

Dr G 19:46
were running, I panicked. I wouldn’t be leaving the good stuff in the camp. You know

Dr Rad 19:49
now, the soldiers who are serving under Camillus are extremely annoyed by this situation, because first they’ve had to endure serving under. To Camillus, who’s, whilst he’s admirable and all, he is extremely strict, and I think we’ve been getting that sense from him this whole time. I mean,

Dr G 20:08
I suppose we could assume that, although it’s not something that immediately comes to mind, from what I’ve read about him so far, he seems very traditional there. Well, if he is capable of getting a military force to dig a complete tunnel underneath a whole city. In order to take it, as is the case apparently, with Veii, then you would need some real discipline with your troops. So exactly I’m willing to allow it. I’m not sure that the sources have necessarily emphasized it, because they do love telling you when somebody is harsh.

Dr Rad 20:38
Well, it’s not so much harsh. I think he’s just strict, and I definitely get that sense from him. I mean, the whole vow thing the way that he had to get the pontiffs involved, and he was like, do we include the land or not include the land? I don’t know, guys, you tell me it all seems very much. This is a man who was very traditional and conservative and likes to play by the rules. Okay,

Dr G 20:59
all right. Well, he needs to work on his memory. That’s all I can tell him. Well,

Dr Rad 21:03
the soldiers are extremely annoyed because they’re like, look, it’s one thing to serve under you in these conditions, but now you’re handing the booty over to the questors like you’re supposed to, instead of just letting us have it. That’s

Dr G 21:16
outrageous. Following the rules, I won’t stand for it. However,

Dr Rad 21:21
under Camillus command, they have, of course, now begun a siege against Falerii.

Dr G 21:26
Okay, so they’ve done the thing where they’ve encountered the military camp of the Faliscans, and they’ve managed to push the Faliscans back to the city. So we’re now getting into the siege proper,

Dr Rad 21:36
yeah, and they’ve got their rampart constructed thanks to Camillus, so we’re ready.

Dr G 21:40
And also maybe it makes sense, from Camillus’ perspective, to hand over all of the booty to the quaestors, because then he’s never again in a situation where he forgets one of his vows and has to try and recoup the 10% from the troops themselves, he can just recoup it from the booty that was taken as a collective and hand it over to the choir stores, and then what remains can be redistributed to the troops.

Dr Rad 22:03
Yeah. He’s like, hey, Marge, get over here. Take control of this. I can’t trust my memory. You need to keep track

Dr G 22:07
of this exactly. It might just be a safeguard for him. The

Dr Rad 22:13
way that this ensues is very much what you would expect for a siege. We see skirmishing going backwards and forwards. Sometimes the people from the town would raid the Roman outposts as they’re camping outside the city, and sometimes they would attack back. And it just led to, like, some low level skirmishing. And it seems like this could obviously go on for a really long time. Essentially, we are once again locked in a stalemate. Dr G, especially because the Faliscans were clever little cookies. They had made sure that they had enough food supplies to last them during a siege inside the wall. So it really could have been a whole another vase situation. Are you ready for another 10 years?

Dr G 22:56
Oh, always, yeah. Always up for a 10 year siege. That’d only be 20 years of my life that’s fine, however,

Dr Rad 23:02
Fortune smiled down upon Camillus as she is want to do. Dr, G, okay,

Dr G 23:08
well, I think this might be where our sources might begin to link back up again. So I’m interested to hear where this goes. Let me take you through the drama that I’ve got when it comes to Camillus besieging of the city of Falerii. I It’s been going on for a little while, not 10 years. Thank goodness we’re in the first year of the siege. But it seems like there is a particular school master who lives amongst the Falsicans, and he starts walking the boys of the prominent families outside of the city for their constitutional and as time progresses with this siege, these walkings with the schoolmaster become more and more wandering away from the city and Closer and closer to the Roman camp until eventually, he brings the school children to a Roman outpost and proceeds to hand over these sons of prominent families to the Roman soldiers at this outpost, which seems to be a little bit insane. Like, what is this guy doing? And it seems that he wants some sort of reward for giving fuller eye to the Romans. He sees this as a trade option, because these are high value hostages, the sons of the most prominent families of the Faliscans. What more could the Romans want? So these kids are rounded up by the Roman soldiers at this outpost. They’re brought to Camillus. And he looks at this situation, and he says, I’m not I’m not having this at all. He’s like, this is treachery of the highest degree. There will be no honor for me as. Roman military commander to take the city of Falerii through accepting this proposition from this schoolmaster. Ultimately, he thinks there has to be a better way, and what he does is he has the schoolmaster handed over himself to the sons of the prominent families and tells them that they’re allowed to do whatever they like with him, preferably beat him up on the way back to the city, and sends them all back to Falerii with the message that this is not how he ever wants to treat with another city. Under no circumstances is this the right way to do about it. Now, in some accounts of this, Camillus does seek the permission of the Senate in terms of what will be the best thing to do, and in other accounts, he makes this decision himself. Hmm,

Dr Rad 25:55
interesting in Livy, it is very much him making this decision himself and just being like, Hey, dude, to the teacher, this is you are a gigantic douche bag, and I have far too much respect for the honor of my enemies and their leaders to enter into any sort of arrangement with an asswipe like you.

Dr G 26:17
How dare you bring these children before me?

Dr Rad 26:20
Yeah, well, in my account, the only sort of additional detail this is all basically your account matches up with mine entirely. But in my account, the only additional detail that I really have is that the guy who was employed to work with these kids is apparently the resident smarty pants, the foremost scholar, as he has described, which is what you’d expect. He’s basically the best teacher with the best education. And what else would you expect for the children of the leaders of Falerii? Well,

Dr G 26:53
exactly. And this seems to be a situation where Camillus is given the opportunity to demonstrate his moral, upright self in a new military situation, which has all of the hallmarks at the moment, up until this point of looking like they 2.0 but we’ve got this brand new sort of situation unfolding, and it becomes such a prominent story that it starts to make it into all sorts of works. It’s one of the things that Camillus becomes really quite famous for. So this story also comes up in Valerius Maximus. It is dealt with in Plutarch’s Life of Camillus. Frontinus mentions it in his stratagems A guy called Polyanus.

Dr Rad 27:44
Sorry, what was that? Again?

Dr G 27:45
I wish I was joking, but that’s his name, polyanus in his stratagems, and it also comes up in much later sources like Cassius Dio and Eutropius, and also the kind of anonymous Aurelius Victor. So this is the kind of story about Camillus that the Romans really, really like. And I would say that this is a big flag in terms of, like, thinking about, who is Camillus, how does he get received later on, and we know that he’s got some sort of niggling troubles with how he is perceived in his life and times, but this seems to be a standout moment in terms of what he is capable of as a thinker and a military strategist, because this really does work out for him. Not only does he send the school children back with the school teacher in tow, with being whipped by the boys, which must have been fun for them, I suppose. But when they get back to the city, the Faliscans immediately want to go into a treaty with Camillus. They’re like, we will talk with you, like, let us not do this siege. We’re willing to figure out what we can do to get out of this military situation. Because actually, you’ve been really respectful. You could have just taken all of our sons and you didn’t. Let’s chat. I

Dr Rad 29:16
know it’s it’s so bizarre for so many reasons. I mean, first of all, let me just say that I’m sitting here quietly sweating as a teacher at the thought that I would ever have my arms tied behind my back and my students given metal rods to beat me with as we walk through some woods. I kind of like think you know, if you go down in the woods today, you’re sure of a big surprise. I

Dr G 29:40
mean, my only advice to you would be, don’t try to hand over the school children to their enemies. You’ll be fine. Look, I

Dr Rad 29:47
like to think that I have as much morality as Camilla does in this situation, but it is really interesting, because Livy, of course, really leans into this moment. He wants to make a big deal of it. As you say, the Romans love. That. And he when he’s talking about what it is he wants to do, he says things like, the Romans would never use their weapons against children, even when they’re storming a city, let alone take unarmed children in these sorts of circumstances, we only attack other adults who bear weapons and provoke a fight. And I’m kind of like, okay, Rome, all right, let’s be honest.

Dr G 30:25
Oh yeah, jets guys, the truth now, yeah, you want to say that you’re very fancy and you play by all the rules, and everybody knows that that’s not true. I

Dr Rad 30:34
love Camilla’s code of honor. It is absolutely how it should be, because Camilla’s very much sees this as a situation where the Romans and the Philistines are both people of honor, and that there are standards in place during warfare. He actually talks even about this being part of human nature. He says nature has implanted this on both sides. Is code of honor, which all sounds fantastic, and this is probably the stuff that right wing people who gravitate towards the Romans really froth over, but we know it’s actually not true in practice in Rome’s history, exactly,

Dr G 31:10
Rome is notoriously violent to anybody it encounters that it doesn’t like, and the fact Camillus is really an exception, rather than the rule here. And there’s also that sense that this story is held onto so strongly by the Romans that it makes you wonder if it’s more of an invention than anything else, like they’re trying to define themselves through stories like this. So to be honest, which Faliscan is going to open the gate of a siege, a besieged city for the school master to go for a bit of a wonder with the kids.

Dr Rad 31:45
I know it just sounds so strange.

Dr G 31:48
I mean, the city has been thoroughly compromised. If somebody has agreed to do that, I

Dr Rad 31:52
know my school would be like, I’m sorry you haven’t done a risk assessment. Or if you have, you clearly haven’t taken full stock of the danger. Yeah, like

Dr G 32:01
you’re gonna have to fill out more forms before I can let you out. You know, we’re under a siege right now. Gonna

Dr Rad 32:06
be way more paperwork. You gotta get parental permission. It’s all gotta go on the ball.

Dr G 32:11
So I think to myself, there’s something up with this story, and it’s definitely working in Camillus favor, and it’s working in a Roman definition of self capacity as well. The Romans want to believe that they’re like this, and what a perfect story to encapsulate the way that they want to see themselves as noble warriors who would never do anything to the young men of prominent families of the enemy. Well,

Dr Rad 32:37
unless we forget, there is a bit of a call back here to the whole situation at Veii. I don’t know if you remember, but once the Romans were more or less in control of a and they’d broken through the tunnel, remember that Camillus had tried to be relatively humane with the people there as well. Yes, in terms of this idea of you only fight with people who are also holding weapons, if people put down their weapons and they can just be captured, that sort of approach. So this is in keeping with Camillus reputation. But he does actually say in Livy’s account that he wants to win the way he won in Veii against the Faliscans, and he wants to do it with honor, the Roman way by dint of courage, toil and arms,

Dr G 33:25
very fine Roman qualities, yeah,

Dr Rad 33:28
which, of course, is something that the Faliscans also apparently value as a truan people. And as soon as they hear it, as you say, they are so flawed by Rome’s integrity that they just lie down, rip off their clothes and say, oh my god, Camillus, just take me. Now. We surrender

Dr G 33:44
the city. It’s yours.

Dr Rad 33:49
Camillus, of course, says, butcher clothes back on. Ma’am. I need to ask the Senate for permission to take this city. Well,

Dr G 33:56
the thing is that they don’t actually take the city. In the end, from what I can tell, what they agree is that the Faliscans will pay Rome a sum of money, and that sum of money will be considered to have closed the military deal. So effectively, the Falsicans are giving Rome the booty that they would have won through violence, and then Rome goes home.

Dr Rad 34:17
That’s true, as in my account, the way it all plays out is that Camillus says, well, thank you so much for surrendering to me. Really appreciate it. And they do a little fist bump, and then Camillus sends the request to the Senate. When the request goes before the Senate, they actually have envoys from Falerii who say, Yes, we are very happy to hand ourselves over. But let us be clear, it is all thanks to Camillus, because apparently all the people in Falerii, particularly the leading magistrates, were dead against this idea of ever surrendering to Rome. They said we would rather go down like they go down in flames, than willingly hand ourselves over to Rome or declare P. Peace against this particular enemy, but Camillus actions have completely changed their mind. They’re just like mind blown. This guy could have taken an easy victory, but instead, he put his ethics first. Just come and take whatever you want, arms hostages the city, it is all yours. We shall be faithful to you and live under your rule, because you guys are clearly awesome, because you produced this man. Wow.

Dr G 35:27
Okay, so how to get the Faliscans to turn from enemy to fan girl? And it’s like, just send the school kids back.

Dr Rad 35:34
Yes. Was it all a ploy all along? Did the Faliscans willingly send out the kids because they were like, You know what really goes for some fresh produce about now?

Dr G 35:47
Well, you are 100%

Dr Rad 35:49
right. Dr G, the Falsicans are indeed ordered to pay the Roman soldiers salaries for that year so that no Roman had to pay the tax, which apparently was what was funding the military, pair of soldiers, even though we’re not entirely sure that that was happening. Oh,

Dr G 36:05
I see. Oh, they’re starting to weave all of these details together into a fabric that might be just half truths. Interesting room interesting before I move on, because I do have some other details about this year. I’m wondering if there are any more details that you have about the Falsicans and what has been going on there? Well,

Dr Rad 36:23
certainly we can start to break it down a little bit more in terms of how this all came together. It is possible, as you say, that Camillus did capture Falerii, and that was the basic story that the Romans knew, and that at a later point, it got connected with this story of a Faliscan school master, and maybe that’s how this story came to be, because, as you say, doesn’t 100% add up in terms of the way everyone is acting and the way that Camillus talks about this notion of honor the details that are included in various accounts on the Roman side. It does sound to some academics like they are kind of Greek, and it might be something to do with the fact that the Faliscans did have contact with Greek people. You know, they’re in that region. It’s possible that they had indeed adopted a sort of Greek education system, perhaps, and that that’s what they’re talking about with the particular education system that’s going on here, where you have one learned school master in charge of everyone’s children.

Dr G 37:32
We’ve adopted the Greek school, and it’s peripatetic, and so they must wander. That is the rule. Yes,

Dr Rad 37:39
exactly. But apparently, if you think about what Camilla says about this whole situation, it kind of might be borrowing a little bit from Plato in his Republic. Okay, some of those ideas. Yeah, I’m open to that fascinating. But certainly what we’re seeing here, if we look at the larger story, we’re seeing Rome become more and more of a player in central Italy, because we just have more and more territory resources being opened up to them. And basically the Tiber Valley is kind of theirs now, yeah,

Dr G 38:11
and I think this is where a little piece of information from Diodorus Siculus does come in handy, because he says that in addition to this conclusion of the peace with the Faliscans. Simultaneously, Rome is also waging war on the aqui eye yet again, and that they’ve also sent out a colony despite the arguments about, will we colonize Veii, they have apparently also sent a colony to a place called sutrium. And this is an ancient town in what is now modern Viterbo. So we’re talking about a place that is to the north east of Rome. And we’re talking about Etruscan territory again. It also, like many of these southern Etruscan towns. Is located on a tufa Hill, and has a history of Etruscan culture in its archeology and then later Roman influence. So it definitely falls under Roman sway at some point. But he also tells us that this colony was expelled by the enemy, the enemy, being unnamed, but involving people from Verrugo, who is another one of these places that has come up for the Romans a few times, and there’s been tussles over verugo. So Rome has its military fingers extending in many directions at the same time at this point, and this seems to be an increasing change that has come about through the adoption of the military tribunes with consular power, because they’ve just got more top military men to command soldiers. But these other things aren’t getting anywhere near the same kind of airplay as what we’re hearing about some of these stab. Out moments from Camillus. So I think it’s interesting that it what you say about them controlling the Tiber Valley at this point, because they do seem to be actively extending and pressing to the north in various directions, both east and west, just trying to secure everything about that area for themselves. So really, taking all of that sort of southern Etruria and militarily, and whether they’re winning all the time, it’s not clear, but they certainly are pushing continuously at this point, absolutely,

Dr Rad 40:34
we can clearly see that Rome has become very expansionist in this turning of the century period, you know, just before we headed into the three hundreds. And now that we’re in the 390s we can very much see that that is their policy, whereas previously, it’s been very much about what is happening in Rome, and they’re more or less just fighting people when they have to interestingly. Dr, G, I’m going to point out a little detail here. I didn’t mention this once before, I think in probably one of our episodes on the conquest of a but did you notice that one of Camillus important victories during this campaign happened at dawn?

Dr G 41:10
At dawn? Yes, because

Dr Rad 41:13
remember, some academics have suggested that Camillus was actually a mythical character who became sort of humanized and became a human figure, because he is very closely associated with deities like Apollo and also Mater Matuta, who are associated with the sun and the dawn, and a lot of his major military moments happen at dawn as well. Well,

Dr G 41:42
you know, maybe he likes to wake up early. Maybe he’s one of these 5am bros. I don’t know. Look. I

Dr Rad 41:48
mean, he seems very traditional and conservative. So I would not put it past him to be a morning person, which I definitely am not. So I’d never be accepted in Rome. I am

Dr G 41:57
definitely a morning person. So I’m happy for Camillus success waking up and doing things before the sun gets up is great, and if he’s doing things on the cusp of dawn, even better. So, you know, people are starting to wake up, and then they’re horrified, being like, Oh no, he’s arrived already. I don’t even I’m still in my pajamas. Camillus

Dr Rad 42:19
also might be a figure in a wall painting that we haven’t mentioned for quite some time, because it’s usually a wall painting that we bring up in connection with the seven kings of Rome. But do you remember a tomb painting the Francois tomb at Volsci? Well,

Dr G 42:36
I’m not going to say that. I do, but I’m open to having it described to me.

Dr Rad 42:39
Well, basically, there have been several figures that have been theoretically connected with some of the people that we’ve talked about. So for example, Servius Tullius, maybe being the person in this tomb painting called Macstrna, the Vipinas brothers. And we’ve also got potential reference to a Tarquin family member on this tomb. It’s hard to know, obviously, because there’s so many question marks about a trust and culture and about how exactly these names would translate. But there is also a figure in this wall painting called Marce Camitlnas. Ooh,

Dr G 43:14
okay, I can see the similarities coming through now. Yeah.

Dr Rad 43:18
So certainly some people have wondered if this, again, if it represents something to do with, you know, mythological people, or people of legend, and Camillus maybe, is somehow woven into that. It’s really interesting. Certainly, the name Camillus suggests someone who is extremely pious, because that word, Camillus can also be used to refer to a young boy who served priests during rituals. So that connection with religion is potentially there. It might be that Camillus is made into a bit of a historical personage by being given the various actions of maybe some real furious family members, and that that is, again, how this sort of legend is created, but it is all extremely tenuous and theoretical. Here. Not everybody gets on board with this whole idea, but it’s interesting because the Francois tomb, of course, is Etruscan, and of course, we’re talking about his connection with conquering important intruscan cities and outposts.

Dr G 44:27
Yeah. I mean, I do have a slight degree of skepticism that at this point in Rome’s history, we’re still dealing with myth and legend, because we’ve had a century or more of various figures that seem to be clearly families, even if those families are sort of extending their lines back a little bit, we’ve got all of this evidence to suggest that there is a burgeoning political culture at Rome and. There’s clear evidence archeologically for expansion during this period that the idea that we’re still dealing with myth and legend seems maybe a little bit too much like if you had said to me at the very start of the Republic, if we were still in like 509, or the 490s and this figure came up, I’d be more inclined to be like, sure, we might be dealing with, like, a little bit of legend, a little bit of myth, some of the old stories coming through. But it feels like we’re in a much more firmly historical period at this point, even though our sources are still giving us what feels like moral tales and things like that. We’ve also got things that are going to come up spoiler alert for next year, the census, we do have real records by the looks of it, and at some point we have to decide, does it count as history, or is it just a story, or is it that hazy nexus between both where, just like we can’t know all of the details about most of these figures, should Camillus be any more speculative than the other people we’ve been talking about for the last 20 years? And I’m not sure that he should. He doesn’t seem out of kilter with other ideas about Rome and how it operates. Somebody had to have broken the siege at Veii. Why not this guy? Absolutely,

Dr Rad 46:27
I think it’s very much a chicken and the egg sort of situation with this particular tomb, because the issue is that it was created at around this time. So it’s interesting in the sense that we have so little from the Etruscan point of view. Unfortunately, most of the stuff that we have that is written down in Etruscan culture that’s managed to survive, it doesn’t tell us narratives about their past. So we really don’t know how they would have told the story of their interactions with Rome. And the reason why, I suppose you might associate it with the sort of myths and legends. Side of things is that it depends on how much you believe in what happened during the Regal period. Because if you kind of accept that this might be telling a story about interactions between Rome and Etruria, it depends on whether you think Servius Tullius and the Tarquins are. How real are they, you know, and having Camillus mixed up in that story. I mean, it makes sense, because he is part of the story of interactions between Rome and Etruscan places. But it is that question of, well, if the if you think that those people from the Regal period are mythical, though, does it mean that Camillus is also a mythical figure who’s figured into this story? Or can you have both, you know, historical elements and mythological elements. But then again, you could accept that Servius Tullius and the tarquins were also very real. We certainly felt like they became like the Roman kings became more real as time went on as well. So there’s a lot of questions about this story, and we don’t know what the meaning of these particular tomb paintings are. But certainly it’s just interesting to note that Camillus might potentially have been represented in some sort of creation of a story about contact between Rome and Etruria from an Etruscan point of view.

Dr G 48:14
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely fascinating. So thank you for reminding me of this piece of evidence, because I know we, as you were going through the names, yes, we have talked about this before, but it’s been a while. So

Dr Rad 48:26
it has been a couple 100 years. You know, returning

Dr G 48:28
back to Camillus, being a part of it, I think, is fascinating. So what it tells us? I’d say we’re not entirely sure. The fact that it tells us some things incredibly interesting, absolutely, and

Dr Rad 48:41
it’s also it’s just that possibility. It’s the same thing with Servius Tullius and the Tarquins. We have no idea if there is a definite connection between these people that we hear about in the Roman narratives and the people who are in this tomb painting. But it’s such an intriguing idea that there is a connection in terms of what you were saying as well. I think about the idea of dealing with myths and legends, I totally know what you mean. It feels very historical the time period that we are in now. But we also know that there is still a lack of perhaps reliable narrative material that people like Livy are using. They’re often having to connect to the dots themselves in order to construct its history. And Camillus becomes so important in terms of how later people want to use him and want to imagine him. We see people like scipionus, we see Augustus. We see Caesar take him as a role model, and so him becoming an exemplar. It’s not so much that he’s necessarily, I suppose, mythological, but certainly that his reputation becomes somewhat embellished, because he becomes this exemplar of particular Roman virtues at moments just like this one. Yeah,

Dr G 49:50
exactly. And I was thinking about this as well in terms of, we’re still in a period for the Romans of oral history transmission, rather. Other than historiography. So it is quite plausible as well that somebody like Camillus does some incredible stuff. Stories are told about him, and the retelling of those stories become more and more like exemplar through the process of them being retold to the point that when people do start writing down the stories, they have already crystallized into a kind of mythic tale through the process of ongoing, generational oral tradition. And I think that might be another possibility for Camillus, yeah,

Dr Rad 50:39
and that’s obviously something that’s so part of these elite Roman families that would have strong oral traditions as well about what their family members had done exactly. Let’s pause it here. Well, Dr, G, that means that it is time for the

Unknown Speaker 50:56
passion pick you.

Dr G 51:04
Mmm, the partial pick. All right, we’re going to be judging Rome against its own standards, and they can win up to 50 gold Roman Eagles through the five categories,

Dr Rad 51:20
and we’re only judging half the year because Dr G, I have got more information on 394 so this is on, like the first part of 394 the Camillus part. Goodness

Dr G 51:28
me. Well, that’s the next episode. Is going to be a wild ride for me, because I’m fresh out of evidence. So I’m looking forward to what happens next in 394 but for now, let us judge part one, the Camillus side of 394,

Dr Rad 51:42
what’s our first category? Dr, G, military

Dr G 51:45
clout.

Dr Rad 51:47
All right. Well, I mean, I think this is pretty good. It’s kind of up there with Veii for me. I mean, it’s not a 10 year siege, sure. And I wouldn’t say that Falerii is quite as important as they but it’s still significant enough. Now

Dr G 52:00
there is a military component to the Roman victory over Falerii. I but ultimately they take it through negotiation, I would say, rather than military force. I mean, they do set up a siege, yeah,

Dr Rad 52:17
but there was that whole moment where the Falsicans were driven screaming past their camp to the walls of the city, and lots of them were killed, and they got to take the booty.

Dr G 52:26
Well, we wouldn’t want to forget that part of it, but we wouldn’t. We also have to take account of things like they’re also waging war against the aqueai. Apparently,

Dr Rad 52:39
they are, and that’s that, but that comes in the next part of my year. Oh, the Camillus part for me. Okay,

Dr G 52:45
well, I’ve already mentioned their war, so I’ll give them a point for that. How about a six? Okay,

Dr Rad 52:51
well, okay, all right,

Dr G 52:55
feel like I’m being pretty generous, considering they the way that they won the Falerii situation, hey,

Dr Rad 53:02
hey, that took some serious military ethics for them to win against the Faliscans. Thank you very much. But

Dr G 53:11
wait, because I think the very things that you’re wanting to give them points for, for military clout, they’re gonna get really strong scores for diplomacy and weirdos. So just hold your horses.

Dr Rad 53:24
Diplomacy, my four white horses. Hold

Dr G 53:26
your four white horses, but don’t use the bit of triumph at the risk of offending people.

Dr Rad 53:32
That’s a deep cut for people who have listened

Dr G 53:37
to it is in jokes only for our very niche listeners, thank you. Thank you. That’s right. The second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 53:44
Okay, fine, tell me, what do you want to give them for diplomacy? I want to give them 10. Wow. Okay, well, yeah, I mean, I feel like

Dr G 53:56
I have never seen any Roman be so diplomatic. They sent back all of the potential hostages. Said This is outrageous. One kid didn’t hold on to a single kid. They’re like, send them all home, because that’s where they belong with their families, and whip that teacher while you do it, young men. So yeah, so much diplomacy. And in some accounts, Camillus does seek advice from the Senate about how to proceed, which you could see as a bit of a diplomatic moment for him. And also, we’ve got the envoys from the Falerii being like, well, we weren’t ever going to give up, but you’ve managed to persuade us

Speaker 1 54:38
they’re gonna give you. Never gonna let you down. Well,

Dr G 54:42
yeah, they’re so floored by what Camillus has done. They’re like this changes everything we we give you the city. Tell us what you need.

Dr Rad 54:53
Yeah, you’re right. This is probably about the best diplomatic moment we might ever have.

Dr G 54:58
I I’m happy to hang my hat.

Dr Rad 55:00
Hated the people of a because it had been a situation that had dragged on for so long, but he’s still restrained and respectful of human life as much as a Roman can be in those situations, in that example as well. So this, to me, is just in keeping with that episode. Yeah,

Dr G 1:00:15
exactly. So on that score, I’m probably giving this about a seven, maybe

Unknown Speaker 1:00:20
a seven.

Dr Rad 1:00:23
Wow. Okay, why not higher, dare I ask? Well,

Dr G 1:00:26
I mean, he’s not showing off any wounds in front of everybody. So, you know, it’s not, it’s not classic, virtus. He

Dr Rad 1:00:33
kept his shirt on. You heard it here first everybody. Dr, G doesn’t want to give Camillus 10 out of 10, because he kept his shirt on correct shirts

Dr G 1:00:42
Shirts Off for Virtus. print that should be printed on the T shirts.

Dr Rad 1:00:48
I was gonna say that has to be our next t shirt.

Dr G 1:00:52
That’s, that’s the slogan I’m running with, and I hope it works out for

Dr Rad 1:00:56
me. Yeah, I’m literally looking on to red bubble right now.

Dr G 1:01:01
Excellent, excellent. All right.

Dr Rad 1:01:03
Well, look, I still think, Okay, I’m still gonna fight you on this. I still think he deserves an

Dr G 1:01:06
A, all right. Well, I’m gonna be open to persuasion there, sure. Why not? Okay, thank you. You were outraged. I was like, why that’s a great score.

Dr Rad 1:01:15
Well, considering that we’ve been mostly giving zeros, sure, but nonetheless, I still think that this is not going to be repeated too many times.

Dr G 1:01:23
I think you’re right about that. All right. This leads us to our last category, the citizen score. Okay,

Dr Rad 1:01:29
now, perhaps not quite as good for the Romans on this front, because it’s a bit middling, to be honest, a bit I mean, they do

Dr G 1:01:38
have to go to war on a number of fronts. So for the average Roman who is asked yet again to leave their harvest to go and stab some of their neighbors, I mean, it’s not the best time. And

Dr Rad 1:01:51
they don’t get booty. They don’t get the booty. Remember, it goes to the quaestors first.

Dr G 1:01:55
Well, they don’t get the booty. But do they do get paid? They do and

Dr Rad 1:01:59
by the enemy. Could it be any,

Dr G 1:02:02
yeah? I mean, those, those dollars, are pretty delicious when it comes from the feller. So all in all, it’s probably a five, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:02:13
because don’t forget as well that we also have this ongoing issue back at home over this whole idea of a colony at Vay, which Okay, the pleb seemed to have cooled off on the idea at this moment in our narrative. But nonetheless, there is still conflict and tension about it. Yeah, okay, so we’re saying a five.

Dr G 1:02:33
Yeah, we’re in a situation where things could be better. Yeah, I’m saying a five, all

Dr Rad 1:02:39
right. Dr, G, that means that the Romans receive a grand total of 29 out of 50 golden eagles. Oh, that’s pretty impressive, I know. And I really honestly, normally, I count the score on my fingers, to be totally honest, because it’s so low, I never need more than 10. So that was really putting me to the test. Oh, they’ve had a shocker recently. But, you know, well, actually, they haven’t. I think it’s just, I think it’s just a fact, for a long time they haven’t. We had that brief moment with Veii where it was pretty good, but see, even then, because we had to split it up into multiple episodes, they weren’t getting high scores every single episode. So

Dr G 1:03:19
now Rome’s back. Camillus is back. Rome’s back. It’s all happening. It is all

Dr Rad 1:03:24
happening. So Dr, G, I look forward to talking with you again and closing off this surprisingly epic year of 394, BCE,

Dr G 1:03:32
looking forward to it.

Dr Rad 1:03:40
Music. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The partial historians is part of the memory collective creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualize, socially conscious and inclusive, to find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon or buy us a coffee on ko fi. In return, you receive ad free episodes and exclusive early access to our bonus content. Today, we would like to say salve to Naomi, Eric and Anders, who are enjoying their one year anniversary with us. Thank you so much for being part of our partial band. However, if you’re feeling like a crazy dictators, while policies have impacted your funds, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 162 – Shirts Off for Virtus! appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

It’s 395 BCE and we explore the events that are the result of the epic year of 396 BCE. The Romans ended 396 BCE on a high with their military success against the southern-most city of the Etruscans, Veii. But is all well in the Roman world? That may depend on which god you talk to…

The defeat of Veii leaves the northern peoples – the Capenates and Faliscans – open to Rome’s wrath. Their resistance to Rome means that war is on Rome’s agenda. This may also explain why we see military tribunes with consular power.

Despite the threats to the north, Rome seems intent on setting up a new colony down south towards Volscian territory. Does Rome really have the resources to spare for such an endeavour after a ten-year siege and problems north of Veii? Well, historians have some questions about that!

Camillus’ glorious leadership in taking Veii seems to be undermined by the his vow to Apollo which he had apparently forgotten. This creates real problems as the 10th portion to be offered to Apollo was not collected when the booty was distributed and now people OWE the gods… Will Camillus’ reputation emerge unscathed?

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents 🙂

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battled wage and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
And I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:05
And I am Dr G and I am super excited because we are no longer in 396 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:14
396 was clearly the best year ever. So I don’t know why you’d even say that. It’s quite hurtful. Frankly,

Dr G 1:21
The Romans are probably sad that it’s over, because they had a great time in the end, although it didn’t start out quite so well,

Dr Rad 1:28
although there were some ups and downs, admittedly, so let’s talk about it. Dr, G, why was 396 so great in the end?

Dr G 1:36
In the end, it is the conclusion of the 10 year siege of bae and a whole bunch of reasons the Romans have been really building up this moment in their written history centuries after the event. So this is viewed many years later as a hugely significant moment in Rome’s history, because it is their first major conquest of a significant Etruscan city.

Dr Rad 2:08
Absolutely, they have more than doubled the territory that they originally possess. So it’s quite impressive, and it’s all down to one man, Dr G, if we’ve learned anything from history, it is that conquering large cities and other nations can only be done by one man,

Dr G 2:26
a single man, a man called Camillus.

Dr Rad 2:30
That’s right, Camillus is the hero of the hour in the siege of they but there are signs of trouble ahead. Dr G even in his moment of glory when he led this victory against Veii, there have been some problems. He tripped to have he tripped when talking to the gods. I mean, is there any humanity left in the world?

Dr G 2:55
It’s like going to a party and spilling the drink all over yourself. Tragic times everybody kind of gasps, being quite concerned, tripping over while you’re talking to the gods is obviously a bad sign. But I think even worse is that there’s a whole bunch of promises that he makes to gods as well.

Dr Rad 3:19
Foolishly

Dr G 3:19
I wonder how that’s going to go for him. I really do.

Dr Rad 3:23
Yeah, well, because it’s required the people to come back and donate part of the booty that they took from the conquest of Fae in order to satisfy the requirements of this vow that he made to Delphic Apollo, who had prophesied Rome’s success against Veii. So obviously, the Rome, you know, Apollo, did them a solid, and they want to, they want to pay him back. And they want it to be something nice. They don’t want it to just be, you know, a supermarket box of chocolates. They want it to be something really special.

Dr G 3:57
They do. And so Camillus is promise to Apollo is really the crux of the issue for him, in the end, because despite the success of the conquest of they, they still have this outstanding promise to keep to Apollo. And apparently Camillus forgot. Awkward. So not only does he trip over, he’s a little bit forgetful, and he does have a moment as well, on a more positive note, where he asks Juno, who is the titular goddess of Veii, if she will switch sides, and she agrees. So that works out for him quite well, but this situation with Apollo may be going to come back to bite him on the bottom, as it were.

Dr Rad 4:48
And speaking of his bottom, Dr G, he sat it upon some white horses. No, not really. He would have been in the little thing behind it. But we did also have some issues with his triumph. He has not. To earned himself Good Will because his triumph was considered OTT in the worst possible way.

Dr G 5:07
Goodness me, what has he done now?

Dr Rad 5:12
So that’s basically the sticky situation in which we find ourselves. Dr G, there’s been lots of good news coming out of 396 which we had to cover in three episodes, but there have definitely been signs that it’s not going to be all smooth sailing for our hero, Camillus.

Dr G 5:29
I’m glad you’ve mentioned smooth sailing that will come up later.

Dr Rad 5:33
Indeed. So Dr, G, I think it’s time For us to dive into 395 BCE.

All right, it’s 395, BC, Dr G and I would like to ask you to take us through the magistrates for the first time in a while.

Dr G 6:28
Oh goodness me. I’m not even used to this job anymore. Everybody bear with me while I butcher some Latin for you. We have six military tribunes with consular power for the year of 395 now they’re all patrician. So way to return to form Rome, we have Publius Cornelius Cossus, first time in the role Publius Cornelius Scipio, first time in the role. Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Now, he has been a military tribune before in 404 and 401 so he’s got a little bit more experience. Yeah, we then have Lucius Furius Medullinus. Another Furii enters the fold. Now he was also previously consul, so he’s had the top notch job in 413 and 409 but he’s also been a pretty regular military tribune with consular power as well. 407, 405, 398, 397 so probably the most experienced of the bunch this time round, our Furius. Then we have Quintus Servilius Fidenas, also previously military tribune with consular power in 402, and 398, so Medullinus and Fidenas have served together before. They’re maybe their friends, maybe their rivals, and Marcus Valerius Lactucinus Maximus, he was also previously military tribune with consular power in 398, so we have a full compliment, if you like, of military tribunes. There’s a whole stack of them this year, and you think to yourself, you guys have just won a siege. Do you really have so many problems on so many other fronts that you need so many so many military folk? But I guess we’ll find out. I’m looking forward to what Livy might have to say about this year, and I also have the name of three tribunes of the plebs?

Dr Rad 8:41
Yes. Finally, it’s been too long.

Dr G 8:45
Somebody’s got to stand up for the common man. Let it be the tribune of the plebs. So in this role, we have a guy called Titus Sicinius, another man called Quintus Pomponius, and finally, Aulus Verginius.

Dr Rad 9:04
I, too, have these names strategy, and I’m very excited about it.

Dr G 9:09
I’m looking forward to learning what’s going on, because, as per usual for me, at the moment, I have few sources that will give me a breakdown on what’s going on, analystically, for this time period. So I’m going to sweep you away with other details instead, at some point in this episode.

Dr Rad 9:27
You always do, Dr G, well, okay, so let me set the scene a little bit. Now. I have mentioned previously that for Livy, Camillus is obviously a huge focal point, to the extent that academic think, he might have actually structured his first 10 books around Camillus appearance, as in, not the way that he looks, but like when he shows up in this.

Dr G 9:55
Don’t be like that,

Dr Rad 9:56
Although I’m sure he’s hot

Dr G 9:57
I’m sure he was a buff dude. He needs a tribute.

Dr Rad 10:02
Now they being captured is obviously a very big moment, as we have been saying in Rome’s history. But there’s something else that now lies ahead, and it’s very difficult for Livy to pretend that that is not on the horizon. Dr G, so I’m going to have to spoil it, even though I think I’ve mentioned it about 100 times already. Whilst Rome has managed to conquer they it is only years away from being conquered itself.

Dr G 10:32
Oh, no, the spoilers,

Dr Rad 10:34
I know, I know, but I can’t help it, because that is seemingly what Livy is now building to.

Dr G 10:43
He’s gotten this major situation with Camillus done and dusted, and he’s like, Okay, on to the next disaster.

Dr Rad 10:50
Yeah, pretty much. He’s obviously got details in the analysis histories and records that came before him. He’s probably got some dates, like when colonies were founded. He’s probably got some details about when military campaigns were happening for Rome, maybe some legal details. But as we always say, when it’s this early on in Rome’s history, he’s still trying to figure out how it all fits together, and so we have to kind of be aware that this is what he’s thinking about when he’s constructing the history that he’s writing.

Dr G 11:26
Definitely so Livy is operating from the shoulders of giants, as far as he is concerned, to write his own history, and this means that he has to navigate the tricky waters of whatever the sources that we don’t have privy to, but he did have left behind.

Dr Rad 11:47
Now you asked Dr G why so many military tribunes? Well, obviously it’s because you want to have military tribunes, because you want to dangle that carrot always in front of the plebs. You go, you could, maybe get a magistrate. Maybe you could, maybe you could. Maybe you would keep working towards it. Keep working towards it. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

Dr G 12:09
And rude. I mean, I mean, if you wanted to give people that sense that it’s possible, surely just have at least one plebeian in there each year,

Dr Rad 12:19
Never! I would rather die than see grubby little paws sully the office of the chief magistracy.

Dr G 12:29
I think this leads us deeper into the thorny problem of what does it mean to be an elite Roman in this very particular period of Roman republic? So we could say that we’ve just left the really early Republic, and we’ve started to step into what will be known as the middle Republic, but it’s a little bit hazy as to what is going on and where all of these very privileged, elite patrician people are coming from. And Rome has a whole history of bringing in new people all the time, and being quite accommodating, really, for people, right from the point of Romulus saying, this is a city of asylum, essentially. So we do have a lot of spread-outness of where family lines seem to come from in Rome. And obviously Rome emerging as a republic, those early, early patrician families get to say that they’re Roman, but obviously they have to have come from somewhere else, because Rome didn’t exist before, before. So exactly this whole idea of who counts as the highly privileged here and who does not is the sort of thing that has framed our understanding of the struggle of the orders, but does become an ongoing issue for how we understand Roman power, because it seems pretty clear from our source material that there is this simplistic division being offered to us when actually the nature of family life and who gets to progress into politics is far more complicated, as would make sense for the fact that Rome is an expanding power that’s open to absorbing people into it and also encouraging foreigners to come and stay.

Dr Rad 14:15
The little known fact Dr G that Livy actually inspired the Avril Lavigne smash, ‘Why did you have to go make things so complicated?’

Dr G 14:25
It’s all making sense now.

Dr Rad 14:27
I know, I know. All right, so the reason, potentially that we also have military tribune so is that there is still some war on Rome’s front. Now, lest we forget, Dr G they has been conquered, but these allies have not and so we have the two Cornelii amongst our military tribunes being sent off to war against the Faliscans. And then we have Valerius and Servilius at war with Capena, because they had both sided with Veii. So.

Dr G 15:00
Yes. Now both of these places, if I remember rightly, are to the north of Rome, and so they’re heading into that Etruscan territory situation, which is-

Dr Rad 15:10
Is it Etruscan territory anymore?

Dr G 15:16
Well, those Romans have changed everything, haven’t they? But certainly we’ve talked about the Faliscians and the Capenates as being people who are sort of further north than Veii and have realized at a certain point that this whole siege situation of they is going to be a problem for them, and now those chickens are coming home to roost by the sounds of it.

Dr Rad 15:38
Oh, they’re coming home all right. So the Roman commanders decide, You know what, we’ve had enough of attacking cities. Let’s just take it easy and completely devastate the surrounding countryside and take everything that the farmers who live in that surrounding area have to offer. In fact, and I quote my translation of Livy, they said they wanted to leave not one fruit tree in the land, nor any productive plant.

Dr G 16:04
Wow, yeah, it’s like the Romans have turned around after all of this siege work that they’ve conducted. And being like, you know what? I really miss pillaging, pillaging. I haven’t done that for years now.

Dr Rad 16:15
And you know what? I like apples and oranges. Actually, I can’t, I can’t remember if they would have been growing. Probably not.

Dr G 16:22
No, definitely not. If we’re talking about fruit trees. Oh, goodness, what would have been growing in Italy in this tim period?

Dr Rad 16:29
Pears?

Dr G 16:30
Listeners, weigh in and tell us, probably pears, yes, lemons, potentially, and olive trees for sure.

Dr Rad 16:40
Yeah. Anyway. So this works very well against the capitates completely subdues them. They seek peace. The Romans are like, Yep, sure, that’s what we really wanted. However, those pesky and adorable Faliscans continue to resist.

Dr G 16:57
How dare they?

Dr Rad 16:59
Now I’m going to take you back to Rome. Dr G where apparently there were, and I quote, again, disturbances of many sorts. Seems that the Romans are not sitting back and reveling in their victory. Now, what these disturbances are exactly? Who knows? Livy doesn’t tell me. He just tells me that there are problems and that the Senate needed to do something in order to shut people up because they were sick of hearing them complain.

Dr G 17:26
All right. I mean, these disturbances could be anything. Then it could just be an errant sign from the gods to weird things turning up in the water supply. Nobody knows

Dr Rad 17:36
it could be. Look, I suspect it probably has something to do with the fact that the Romans have just come into a large amount of territory and booty. I think this is probably all connected. They’ve not happy with Camillus entirely. He tripped. He had white horses in his triumph. It’s just all too much. Dr G, it’s very overwhelming. So they decide to put a colony on the Volscian frontier, and they need 3000 citizens in order to make it viable, allegedly. And so they set up a board of three to decide what how this is going to play out. And they determine that anybody who goes to this new colony would be given three juguera and 7/12ths in terms of their land, which I believe. So. I think a jugera is about 28,000 square feet.

Dr G 18:29
Oh, well, that doesn’t help me at all. I’m a metric kind of girl.

Dr Rad 18:32
Yeah, no, it doesn’t help me either. Look, it’s all it’s just space. It’s just space.

Dr G 18:38
I believe a jugera is supposed to be the amount of land that one can profitably farm to exist for yourself and your family. So three is a pretty nice gesture. It is. But Volscian territory, I mean, they’ve just taken Veii, the Volsci are in the other direction.

Dr Rad 18:56
Well, this is the thing, right? So first of all, let’s just have a quick reality check. There’s my sound effect. I’m putting on the brakes.

Modern academics have found it extremely dubious that Rome would have 3000 citizens to spare for said colony. They think that perhaps about 300 might be more realistic for this time period.

Dr G 19:22
Hmm, okay. Now, does this story in any way parallel the suggestion that people remove themselves from Rome and inhabit they instead?

Dr Rad 19:35
This does have to do with that. I’m going to get there in just a moment. So we probably got, yeah, we have probably got essentially just a small band of colonists who are going to set out and set up this new colony. Now, back to Livy’s account. The plebs are not at all impressed by this suggestion, because they feel this new colony is clearly just a diversion. They’re trying. Trying to buy off the plebs with crappy, stupid land and banish them to this stupid frontier when they could be going to Veii, which is right there, and they can see it and everything. They want to live in Veii even more than they want to live in Rome itself,

Dr G 20:24
Ooo okay

Dr Rad 20:24
In fact. And this is where what you said comes in. They even discuss at this point, why don’t we just all pack up shop, leave Rome behind, move today. I mean, after all, location, location, location, Dr G, it has a better location. It has nicer buildings. It has the theater, the museums, the art, the comedy, the promenades. Clearly, this is a genius plan.

Dr G 20:52
It also serves as cover for a plebeian secession that could succeed being like we’re out of here, guys, not only are we leaving Rome, but we have a better place to go. They is positioned on the top of a tufa outpost, essentially, so a sort of semi hard rock outcrop, so it’s easily defensible. That’s the idea. This is why it took Rome so long to besiege it and to take it over. But now that Rome possesses it, it should be theoretically easy for them to defend as well. So if somebody wanted to take they from them, you would expecting at least another 10 year siege, if not longer, because the Romans understand how sieging that place works, and probably have some ideas about how to combat that.

Dr Rad 21:45
No tunnels!

Dr G 21:48
Don’t let anybody build any tunnels. That is a suspicious trap door in the ground. Where’s that going all the way to they, my friends. So for the plebeians to sort of up sticks and be like, You know what? I just gonna move to this empty city over here. A whole bunch of them were probably involved in the conquest anyway. So they know what they’re getting themselves into. They probably realize the amount of rebuilding work that would need to happen there. I’d be interested to see how this pans out for them, though.

Dr Rad 22:18
Well, Dr G, this is where probably the most famous ad for tacos comes in, because the plan is that they’re going to send half of the plebs, but also half of the Senate to they so they weren’t planning on just sending plebs, and they basically asked the Senate, why can’t the Romans be in both cities? ¿Por Qué No Los Dos?

Dr G 22:42
Fair enough, yeah. Finally, we’ve conquered something. Let’s divide after conquering,

Dr Rad 22:50
the patricians were outraged at this suggestion. They literally said that they would sooner die than ever. Let such a suggestion even come to a vote, Dr G, let alone make it reality.

Dr G 23:04
Okay, so the senatorial faction is basically against this whole idea that half of them might have to live somewhere else.

Dr Rad 23:12
Yes, that’s what they say. This is a terrible idea. They say, look at us as Romans. We are constantly having internal problems in bickering amongst ourselves. If there were two Romes, it would be double trouble, so much worse. And how dare the plebs want to go and live in they? I mean, they just lost a war. Loser. Rome was the winner of that conquest, and everyone should want to live there, because it is clearly the superior place to be. Okay. The patricians would never be leaving behind their fellow Romans or their beloved city, no matter what you could threaten them with anything, Dr G, becoming too feminine, becoming too Greek, and they’d say, No, never, I’m not afraid of you. I am staying right here, okay, and this is where the tribune of the plebs comes in, touchy, okay?

Dr G 24:14
Yeah, I was gonna say somebody needs to stand up to this kind of mad rhetoric, because you’re not gonna ever be able to hold ve unless you put some of your own people in there, and it’s a matter of who’s it going to be

Dr Rad 24:27
Pish posh with your sensibilities.

Dr G 24:30
How dare you be military strategic in this time, I’m having emotions!