From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies

After nothing but the uber-patrician Camillus for a long time, a plebeian hero seems long overdue. Welcome to what is essentially the first part in our mini-series on the rise and fall of Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. 

Marcus Manlius Capitolinus already had quite the reputation in Rome by 385 BCE (circa!). Aside from the usual patrician accomplishments, he had been the only one to wake to the sound of distressed geese when the Gauls attempted to ascend the Capitoline and kill the defending Romans in their sleep. Thanks to him, there was soon a pile of scrambled Gauls at the bottom of the hill and the Capitoline remained under Roman control. 

But that had been years ago. Was he feted everywhere he went now? Where was the endless confetti falling from the sky? Where were the statues in his likeness? And why did everyone think Camillus was so amazing? The green-eyed monster was driving the Manlius train, and it drove him straight into the arms of the plebeians. 

Manlius decided to befriend the plebeians, choosing fame over what was “right” (and by that, we are assuming our sources mean, right for an elite dude). There was always lingering tension between the patricians and plebeians, as our listeners well know. However, in 385, debt was once again an issue, probably as so many people had to borrow money to rebuild their houses after the Gallic sack. Manlius took up their cause, decrying the hideous situation that so many decent Romans found themselves in. The injustice!

The senate did not like the way this was going, so they decided it was time to appoint a dictator. And no, they did not choose Camillus. We will give you some time to pick yourselves up off the floor.

The dictator they chose was from a distinguished family – just the kind of guy who would be able to keep a lid on this Manlius situation. But it would not make any sense to openly say that was the reason for his appointment. Instead, the senate claimed they needed someone to deal with the many enemies the Romans were surrounded by. That would be the Volscians, and then a bunch of people who were SUPPOSED to be their friends – Latins, Hernicans, and even some ‘colonists’ from Circeii and Velitrae. 

Cossus and his trusty master of the horse, Titus Quinctius Capitolinus, quickly assembled an army. Nothing will keep people’s mind off their crushing debt more than a victory! With the gods on their side, Cossus and Quinctius secure just that, with remarkable ease – no javelins needed. 

With the Volscians put in their place, Cossus could finally turn his attention to Rome’s treacherous allies, who magically keep appearing in the ranks of their enemies. But things were getting out of hand in the city…

Ten points if you guessed that Marcus Manlius was behind the chaos that faced Cossus when he returned. Manlius had interceded when a talented centurion was about to be condemned for debt. The shame that a man who had given so much to his city should be rewarded with a life in slavery! What were those patricians doing, allowing Rome to operate like this? 

The gratitude of the centurion towards Manlius, who he dubbed ‘the father of Roman plebeians’, knew no bounds. He told his story to the rest of the people, including his rescue, which naturally involved him taking off his shirt so people could see the scars earned fighting for the state. You know the Romans totally lose it when this happens, so they needed no further convincing – Manlius was, well, the man!  

With the plebs firmly behind him, Manlius feels bold enough to call out the patricians. Just when you thought things could not get more controversial! Was Manlius just using the plebeians to get revenge, or was he really a hero of the common man? 

A Manlius (T. f. A. n. Capitolinus?) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 389, 387??, 383, 370

P. Cornelius – f. – n. – – – – – (Pat) (Mil. Tr. c. p. 389?)

T. Quinctius (T. f. L. n. Cincinnatus) Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 388, 384?

L. Quinctius (L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus?) Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 388, 377?

L. Papirius – f. – n. Cursor (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 387

(Cn. Sergius – f. – n. Fidenas Coxo) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 387, 380

A Cornelius – f. – n. Cossus (Pat) (114, cf. 112, and 113) Cos. 413?

T. Quinctius (T. f. L. n. Cincinnatus) Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 388, 386, 383

Marcus Manlius Capitolinus

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited to suit our Australian accents.

The post Episode 178 – Marcus Manlius Capitolinus, Plebeian Hero appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

What is Rome to do when they gaze out from the top of the Capitol and all they can see are the neighbours they don’t like or the neighbours that don’t like them? When the people of Nepete and Sutrium come down from the north to ask Rome for help, Rome jumps at the opportunity to be useful. After all, who doesn’t enjoy upsetting the Etruscans?

The Camillus Show continues in c. 386 and 385 BCE! But the Romans seem to be facing tensions not just from their enemies, but even from those who they used to count on as allies…

There’s nothing for it by for the Romans to send aid north. And who should be tasked with leadership for this support but Camillus. He’s not happy to go alone, however, and he’s joined by fellow military tribune with consular power, Valerius Poplicola. What will they find as they head into Etruscan territory? Tune in to find out the details!

Are the Latins and the Hernicians still friends with Rome? There’s building evidence that maybe the friendship is over and the best-friend necklaces have been thrown away. Rome needs some clarity and tries to have a conversation about the situation, but it doesn’t seem like the Latins or the Hernicians want to play ball.

We enter the year c. 385 BCE and it’s time to welcome Marcus Manlius back to the stage! He is already famous by Roman standards for his involvement with the sacred geese on the Capitol during the Gaul’s siege of Rome, but his story is only just getting started. Is he feeling jealous of some of his peers? We’ll find out.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents.

The post Episode 177 – Etruscan Evil Plans appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

It is 386 BCE (maybe?) in Ancient Rome and once more Livy is providing our underlying narrative for events. The timeline is pretty confusing in this decade. 

Whilst the tribune of the plebs were still agitating for control of the Pomptine territory, there was remarkable harmony between the patricians who were appointed as military tribunes with consular power. Camillus had been voted into power, and the rest of his colleagues decided to fall in line and follow his lead, especially once it became clear that war was on the horizon.

The Romans would have liked to teach their former allies, the Latins and Hernici, a lesson. The Etruscans also seemed to be up to something. However, it would end up being the Volscians who attracted Rome’s attention. According to some “fugitives” who showed up in Rome, problems were arising in Antium, a very important Volscian coastal town. It was time for Camillus to get down to business. The Romans were not ignoring warnings any more after everything that had happened with the Gauls! Lesson learned.

Camillus went into war preparation mode, organising three forces under his fellow military tribunes. One section of the army would serve under Camillus himself and his sidekick Valerius, one would keep a lookout for any attacks from the Etruscans, and the final section, made up of the men who were too old or decrepit to serve anywhere else, would guard the city itself. The Senate and the Roman people were filled with positivity, not only because Camillus was an angel sent from heaven, but because of this amazing display of teamwork. Why can’t elite dudes always be this selfless? 

With that sorted, Camillus and Valerius were off to Satricum, where some of the troublemakers from Antium were gathering up some Volscian forces and also a large number of ‘volunteers’ from the Latins and Hernici. Ouch! The Romans were devastated to see that their former allies would do them dirty like that! 

Roman military standards, courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

Camillus knew these sad sacks in front of him were not going to be able to secure victory – not unless they had one of the best pep talks in HISTORY! Jumping on his horse, Camillus delivered immortal words: “Everything is awesome, everything is cool when you’re part of this team!” But he could not stop with mere words. Actions are what count. Camillus ended his speech by leading the charge himself, either dragging the nearest standard-bearer with him into the fray or throwing the standard into the enemy forces. Baller move, Camillus! 

Well, the Romans could not allow the standards to fall into Volscian hands. Suitably inspired, a furious battle ensued. Even with passion on their side, the Romans were still vastly outnumbered. Would they secure another triumph for Camillus? And would he then be able to finally turn his attention to the root of the problem, Antium? 

Join us to learn all about Camillus’ history, and a bit about Rome too. 

M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 401, 398, 394, 384, 381

Ser. Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 384, 382, 380, 376, 370, 368

Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 402, 398, 395, 390, 388

L. Quinctius (- f. – n.) Cincinnatus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 385, 377

L. Horatius – f. – n. Pulvillus (Pat)

P. Valerius L. f. L. n. Potitus Poplicola (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 384, 380, 377, 370, 367

L Sicinius

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome, everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad,

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:58
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G,

Dr Rad 1:07
and I am Dr. Rad,

Dr G 1:09
and we are somewhere in the Middle Republic. Oh yes,

Dr Rad 1:13
it’s getting very iffy around the dates. The circas are jumping off the page,

Dr G 1:18
and because the dating is all over the shop, and the chronology is not going so well. Our sources are also very out of sync, I think, and I think might become apparent as we get into this episode. But nominally, we’re in the year 386 BECE.

Dr Rad 1:37
We are Doctor G, but lest we forget the monumental year that was 387. For a brief recap, in case people have somehow forgotten the crazy, stupendous events that took place in that year.

Dr G 1:50
Well, let us not forget, because I also have things to say about that year now that I’ve done more research. Oh, okay,

Dr Rad 1:56
okay. Well, look, for me, I think we were very much still in the rebuilding era, post whatever happened between the Gauls and Rome, bit of a mystery. But I think we can safely say it wasn’t a pleasant encounter. It might have got aggressive. It might have got violent.

Dr G 2:14
Yes, yes. And Rome’s ability to recover from things like this is this is the first time they’ve gone through something like this, it’s never been this bad.

Dr Rad 2:23
It has never been this bad. I think that that is definitely something we can agree upon. So, my account is definitely still showing the Romans dealing with that in terms of not just rebuilding, but actually just mentally processing what has happened and trying to move on with their lives,

Dr G 2:41
and apparently this involves the dedication of a temple, amongst other things,

Dr Rad 2:48
naturally.

Dr G 2:48
And I didn’t have much to say about that temple, and so I think the bulk of the things I’ll have to say in this episode are going to be retrojection back to that moment.

Dr Rad 2:58
Oh, okay. No, please tell me what have you discovered?

Dr G 3:01
Ah, so the temple to Mars. Yes, yes, yes. I’m glad you’ve asked. So when you mentioned it in the previous episode, I was like, well, I knew I knew we had two men for the sacred things at play, but I had no idea what they were really doing. And as it turns out, they’re doing something very important. And I do have some things to say about this now that I’ve done some more investigation because my sources just didn’t mention this temple at all, and this temple is situated outside the pomerium, as far as we are aware.

Dr Rad 3:34
Yeah,

Dr G 3:34
and so you head out of the Porta Capena, and in between the first milestone and the second milestone, there’s supposed to be this temple to Mars Gradivus, a particular version of Mars, distinctly associated with war, as opposed to the other kinds of things that Mars can be associated with:

Dr Rad 3:55
chocolate, nougat, caramel, etc.

Dr G 3:57
Exactly, and because Mars in, I think by the time we get to the imperial period, is definitely just a war god. Okay, we tend to overlook the fact that from an italic, archaic perspective, Mars has a lot more going on in terms of his divine associations. This is true. He’s got connections to the harvest. He’s got connections to looking after children. There’s a whole range of different things that go with the god Mars that then get separated out as we get further into Roman history. And so this temple really marks a defining moment of saying this is the Mars for war.

Dr Rad 4:38
Okay,

Dr G 4:39
and it’s really important that it’s outside the pomerium because if Mars is about war in this case, dare not have any weapons inside the pomerium. So everything needs to be outside. This also means that you can have the troops gather there as a final blessing before they go out in on camp. You can meet there and head out on the Appian Way once that exists, which it might not to a very large extent at this point in time. But we do have some interesting details that come out about this temple. So, from an archeological perspective, I came across a paper published in 2016 by Dubbini talking about the records that are held by the Italian Ministry that looks after archeology, and there was an excavation done on the Appian Way,

Dr Rad 5:34
yeah,

Dr G 5:34
in the right kind of location by the Soprintendenza, this Ministry for Archeology and the Arts and things like that.

Dr Rad 5:44
Yeah,

Dr G 5:44
because they had to create a new sewer system. Rome was expanding. It was the 1970s. They’re like, we need to put in more sewerage works, and they dug up this whole section next to the IPM Way and came across, surprise, surprise, ancient ruins, and they didn’t do a formal archeological excavation at the time, but they did draw pictures of what they found along the way

Dr Rad 6:08
before destroying it. Is that the subtext of this?

Dr G 6:11
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Rad 6:12
Oh wow.

Dr G 6:15
Well, as it turns out, the the local people at the time were like, “You need to get moving with this sewage system, well, sure, yeah, just needs to be finished.

Dr Rad 6:23
I do understand the practicalities, but wow, ouch!

Dr G 6:28
Yes, so there are diagrams and no particular write-up, and the diagrams are suggestive that we’re looking at a temple from the right kind of period, about the fourth century BCE, because it is using the kind of stone that comes from the Palatine. Right. Okay. And the tooth stone from the Palatine was the preferred stone for building early on in the early and middle republic, and it becomes less preferable over time because it’s not a great stone to build with. But it was locally available, so it was close.

Dr Rad 7:09
I was going to say it was close. Yeah, it was there.

Dr G 7:12
So in the beginning, Rome used what was available.

Dr G 7:16
The tufa of the Palatine was there. They’re like, we can use that. That’s fine. And later on, they expanded and realized they were better stone elsewhere, and they started to bring that stone to Rome to do the things.

Dr Rad 7:27
And as Rome becomes more crowded, I mean, you’re going to be lugging that stuff through the streets.

Dr G 7:30
Well, exactly, exactly. And you can’t just cut down mountains all the time, or can you? And so we’ve got this temple, or at least the remains of this temple that seems to have been documented from this sewerage excavation work in the 1970 s, which could be the temple to Mars. We can’t know for sure. It’s almost impossible to go back and check things like that. And the thing that distinguishes this particular building out is that it has two distinct rooms, which, from a perspective of archeology for this period of time, means that there’s potential for two gods to be worshiped, a room for each. So we can’t be entirely sure, but there is some archeological record to suggest that it is at least feasible, there was a temple from the right time period in around about the right location between the first and the second milestone on the Appian Way. So that’s interesting. So there seems to be archeological evidence to substantiate this idea.

Dr Rad 8:39
So wait, wait, wait, wait. What I’m hearing is that, in effect, this archeological evidence is backing up Livy’s highly accurate account of events. Correct?

Dr G 8:57
Look, I’m not going to say no to that. Yes. Yes, score

Dr Rad 9:03
one for the Livy team.

Dr G 9:04
Could Livy be right? Yes, yes, he could. So, these are the things that I thought were quite interesting. Is that we do have evidence that Mars is developing a God of War in this period. Yeah, we do have this idea that there is potential for a temple along the Appian Way in this time period as well. It’s built from the right kind of stone, even if we can’t get back into the area to look at the details in depth. Because I don’t know if anybody wants to dig up a sewerage works, but fair enough. So that was that was exciting to find, I think, because in terms of the way that this temple matches up to the other temples that we know about from this time period, there are a couple of temples on the capital that use the same stone and date from the same period.

Dr Rad 9:59
Okay. And this would seem to make sense, given that Rome has just been through some sort of military disaster, and also that we have been noticing for a little while, maybe like 10-20, years, roughly, that Rome does seem to be getting more militaristic. It’s definitely entering an expansionist kind of area, so that all would seem to, I think, gel very nicely with the idea of Mars as a god of war, and maybe not looking so much at some of the other aspects of him. It makes sense.

Dr G 10:39
Yeah, it does. And these are sorts of things that are backed up by our literary sources as well. So, for instance, we have Vitruvius, who, talking about the architecture of where you would place temples to certain gods, indicates that it is appropriate to place Mars outside of the city boundaries, precisely because of that warlike association, and you don’t want to draw in the risk of war into the interior of the city itself.

Dr Rad 11:07
Because God knows, Rome is so peaceful. I mean, do they ever fight? It’s unhealthy, Doctor G.

Dr G 11:14
Only outside. No fighting inside, guys. So you can have plenty of temples inside as long as it’s not about war, but if it’s going to be about war, it’s got to be outside, you know, just to keep things safe.

Dr Rad 11:27
Sensible. We’ll see how that whole feng shui works out for them, shall we?

Dr G 11:33
We’ll see. We’ll see. All

Dr Rad 11:34
right, Doctor G. Well, I think that means that we’re probably ready to get into 386 BCE. It’s 386 BCE, maybe, kind of, circa,

Dr G 12:04
possibly.

Dr Rad 12:05
Can you tell me, Doctor G, who are our military tribunes with consular power for this year?

Dr G 12:11
Well, we’ve got a list. Let’s see what it’s like. We have Marcus Furius Camillus. He’s baaack. The

Dr Rad 12:20
crowd goes wild.

Dr G 12:25
He is followed by Servius Cornelius Maluginensis. He is joined by in third place Quintus Servilius Fidenas. We’ve seen him before.

Dr Rad 12:37
Definitely.

Dr G 12:38
We’ve also got Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 12:42
Ooh.

Dr G 12:42
And. since I was like, where are we up to in this family of the Cincinnati? I went and did some delving, did some pos proofography. That also rolls off the tongue.

Dr Rad 12:56
That jet lag’s really hitting you.

Dr G 12:59
Pospo? Nope, I can’t do it.

Dr Rad 13:02
Prosgraphical.

Dr G 13:03
Thank you. I am smart, but I have jet lag, dear listeners. Yeah. Looking into family connections, essentially, and I was like, we’ve got our OG Cincinnati, the shirtless farmer guy.

Dr Rad 13:17
Yeah, very. This guy is

Dr G 13:19
a grandson, so we’re a couple of generations down now.

Dr Rad 13:22
Yep,

Dr G 13:23
I found him. I’m

Dr Rad 13:24
gonna go out in a limb. He’s not as good.

Dr G 13:27
Well, I haven’t heard any stories where he’s got his shirt off yet. So

Dr Rad 13:30
I know, right?

Dr G 13:31
Times are troubling. There’s

Dr Rad 13:34
ways to make yourself famous, and they are as old as time. Exactly.

Dr G 13:40
And he is joined by Lucius Horatius Pulvillus.

Dr Rad 13:45
Unusual,

Dr G 13:46
unusual, yes. And I also looked up this guy because I was sure you did. Pulvillus, little cushion. These are the looking for a soft spot to land. Easy guy.

Dr Rad 13:59
My my.

Dr G 14:01
So the the pulvillus is like the little cushion that sits on top of an altar stand, essentially. So oh,

Dr Rad 14:08
okay. It it

Dr G 14:10
has some significance, but it also comes from the hirati, very famous family.

Dr Rad 14:15
Yes, yes.

Dr G 14:16
And just to remind ourselves of how famous they are, there is the Horatii triplets.

Dr Rad 14:23
Naturally, yeah.

Dr G 14:24
First of all, who get into a battle with the Curiatii triplets, and that is a royal legend under Tullus Hostilius.

Dr Rad 14:33
Yep, and they all end up dead except for one.

Dr G 14:35
Yeah, look, and which one is it? Because it’s one of the Horatii, and then we have Rome’s first consul. One of them was Marcus Horatius Pulvillus, so little cushion again, back. So this is a family with some antiquity. Then we have Horatius Cocles, the guy who. Defends the bridge against Lars Porsena back in around about 508.

Dr Rad 15:06
He was an Etruscan dude. Yeah, and

Dr G 15:08
then we also have Gaius Horatius Pulvillus, the consul of 477 slash 457, and he

Dr Rad 15:20
wait wait 77 slash 57.

Dr G 15:24
Well, not yeah, like in both years. Not oh,

Dr Rad 15:27
I thought that in either role, and I was like, that seems like a bit of a gap.

Dr G 15:31
Not 477 dash 457. He doesn’t hold it for 20 years. Gotcha. He holds it on two separate occasions. I

Dr Rad 15:39
see. I see.

Dr G 15:40
But he also is famous for his military exploits against the Volscians, and so this is a family that has some reputation behind it. So even though we haven’t seen a guy from this family for a little while, and we’re like, little cushion, what do you what do you mean? He he does have a noble legacy for which to build his soft foundation upon.

Dr Rad 16:05
I thought it was a crack about his weight, to be honest.

Dr G 16:08
Well, maybe maybe the maybe the family is soft and cuddly. Who knows? Our final military tribune for this year is Publius Valerius Potitus Publicola.

Dr Rad 16:18
Oh my God, this is a very elite group of military tribunes with consular power. Another one that goes all the way back.

Dr G 16:25
Yep. So big names, big year. I don’t know what happens.

Dr Rad 16:33
Look, I’m telling you right now, warning everybody. I think this is going to be a multiparter. It’s we’re entering a very big time for Rome.

Dr G 16:42
Okay, I’m going to preface this by saying that I have some massive things that are coming up that spread over the next couple of years, and I wonder if they’re starting to come up, maybe in your account now.

Speaker 2 16:54
Possibly, possibly. The chronology is a mess.

Dr G 17:00
I’m intrigued when you say there’s a lot to be said for this year. I’m like, but is there? I’ve certainly got a lot of things to say for next year and maybe the year after that.

Dr Rad 17:12
Look, I just think it’s all this this whole middle 380 s period. I think is an interesting one, and it’s not just because of what Livy tells me it’s also because of some of the secondary scholarship I’ve been looking into. I’m not going to lie, so it’s not all Livy’s fault, but I am predicting a multi-party here.

Dr G 17:30
All right, I’m interested to see where this is going, so I see if I have anything to chip in whatsoever.

Dr Rad 17:36
Look, I just like looking intelligent, like I know what the future holds by saying this in advance, so that’s why I’m saying it. All right, so let’s set the scene a little bit, Dr. G. So one thing we didn’t flag in our recap was that we did talk a little bit about that marshy area, you know, the Pontine Marshes, which seems to be falling increasingly under Roman control in this time period. That was one of our big things that we talked about last time. How it would be absolutely hideous to live there because it hasn’t been drained yet, and yet people are fighting about control of that area because you know land is land, I guess. So the tribunes of the plebs are not going to let the issue of who’s going to control this territory, go. So we have a tribute of the plebs, Lucius Sicinius, bringing

Dr G 18:26
it up again. Okay.

Dr Rad 18:31
We don’t know much about this particular guy who is a tributary of the plebs, but as I think we flagged last time when we were talking about him as being one of the magistrates for he was listed, I think, in one of the one of the magistrates for the previous year. The family of the Sicinii are very much associated with plebeian leadership and activism and whatever else you want to apply to this kind of role that they tend to play. So we’ve got this guy. I think I smell trouble.

Dr G 19:02
Oh-O

Dr Rad 19:04
Yes. So there is a meeting that is therefore organized by the Tribune of the Plebs, and more people are starting shop now. Before the seems like the plebeians were a bit, you know, exhausted from all of the rebuilding, all the trouble that the girls had left behind, and they weren’t as committed to talking about land distribution and those sorts of issues, because they needed to find somewhere to live and survive, whilst Rome was still a shattered ruin of its former self.

Dr G 19:34
Fair enough. The

Dr Rad 19:35
people are now much more predisposed to get feisty with the patricians over the issue of land. Now, this is where I’m going to start flagging some of the secondary scholarship. You and I have had to deal with a lot of issues in the last 100 years or so, which we’ve often wondered: Is it real? Did it really happen? Or is this just some? Thing that seems a little bit like something that happened in the late Republic, and so our sources, which are written so much later, are kind of applying the knowledge that they have about issues that Rome was experiencing back into this time period to help it all make sense and you know flesh it out a little bit. However, as you have always reminded me, Dr. G, it has to be based on something. Like there must have been something in whatever records they were using or sources they were using that reminded them of the issues that they were familiar with in the first place. You would assume they’re not writing fiction here, technically.

Dr Rad 20:38
One of the things that we’re probably going to be talking about a little bit as we explore this narrative is how much we can say that this is something that is really going on, and I did come across this really interesting article, which kind of tied into what we’ve been talking about for a little while now with the early republic, which is that our sources make it seem like it was a relatively easy transition from the regal period into the republic. It seems like a lot of the institutions that we’re familiar with were, you know, set up fairly soon. You know, a lot of the positions and that sort of thing.

Dr G 21:20
Ah, yes. Like the question of like the consulship.

Dr Rad 21:23
Exactly. Exactly. Does the

Dr G 21:25
consulship really exist yet?

Dr Rad 21:27
Yeah. And there’s also been yeah. There’s also been so many things that have come up, and we’re like, well, are you actually doing that? Like military pay, for example, is that actually a thing? How much can we really trust our accounts and what’s going on here? And we’ve also talked a lot about the idea that perhaps Rome, particularly in the fifth century, is actually a lot more feudal than our sources would perhaps like us to believe. It’s not that they don’t have magistrates. It’s not that this is completely made up, but the state might have been a bit more loosely organized than our sources, you know, indicate basically, and there may have been more a situation where people were clients or associated with some of these really powerful families and strong men who existed around the place, and therefore the warfare itself was also maybe a little bit more loosely organized in the way that it functioned, we’ve talked about these sorts of things before. This also, though, may feed into these issues around land distribution and exactly how that worked. In the sense of, you would presume that these local families and strongmen probably also have some sort of relationship to the control of the land that Rome has power over at this point in time, and therefore the land issues, whilst they seem sometimes to be influenced by what happened in the late Republic, particularly post the Gracchi brothers, it may be something that was actually happening, particularly in this time period, because Rome is starting to expand a little more, and it does seem that we are seeing more of a transition as we head into the fourth century BCE, into maybe a different organization of the Roman state. So all of this stuff that we sort of talked about in the fifth century might be starting to morph a little bit as we get into the fourth century, and therefore I’m just flagging that now as something that we might talk about with the whole land issue. So my whole point being, is it fictional? Probably not entirely, but the reality of the situation is obviously very difficult to figure out.

Dr G 23:42
Yeah, it’s a tricky time, and I think we’ve got this landmark event of whatever is happening with the Gaulish incursion into Rome to really spark ideas around. Well, where are the boundary stones? Like, where is the common property versus the private property. Yeah, and if we have to rebuild this place, what does that really look like now? Yeah, and having that extend out further to thinking about family control, and particularly things taking this back to Mars a little bit as well. One of the scholars that I was looking at Serrati, who was writing a paper in 2019, talking about the language that is used, and the term Sodales, which is used to refer to the priesthood of Mars, is also a term used for a band of fighters that fights under a warlord, so there is a a connection to be made from a Latin perspective as well between what’s going on from this sort of like warlord feudal rampaging families type of thing to being like how do we make this. Something that sits within the realms of the state in a sacred and appropriate way, and be like, what if we make some of these guys priests? What if we had a god of war? Everybody,

Dr Rad 25:16
I like the way you’re thinking, expansionist Cap on,

Dr G 25:21
yeah. Those noble families, noble, may be trying to find ways to give credibility to the things that they have done and the things that they’d like to keep doing.

Speaker 3 25:32
Yeah,

Dr G 25:33
under a more under a system which is calling for larger formalization of like what is Roman, how does it work?

Dr Rad 25:40
Yes, and that’s I think what a lot of the articles I’ve been looking at are talking about. As we get start getting into the fourth century BCE, we do start to see a bit more formalization, perhaps, of the state, a bit more centralization happening as we are transitioning a little bit out of this kind of warlordish period. And as I say, it’s not that Rome as a concept or a state didn’t exist in the four hundreds, but it’s more that it just might not have been quite as cohesive.

Dr G 26:11
Yeah, and I think there is a sense in which there feels like there is a structure to what is going on in the fifth century because we get the names year on year. Yes, and the extent to which that might be an imposition on what is a far more chaotic period of Rome’s history is open to conjecture, really. But it does seem like we’re getting a slightly more solidified version of Rome as we move further into the fourth century.

Dr Rad 26:45
Yeah, and if you think about things like the 12 Tables, which obviously are supposedly a product of the mid fifth century BCE, we definitely get a lot of talk about patron-client relationship. We obviously get a lot of concern about agriculture and property boundaries and that sort of thing, which all makes sense for the kind of society that they would have had, and that gels though with the idea that patron-client relationships obviously might have been particularly important because you had a relationship perhaps with a local family who were very powerful and wealthy in your area, and that might have had something to do with the land that you had and where you lived, and if you went to war and in what capacity. So, but we’re starting to see that shift a little bit as Rome is at war more and more often, and does seem to be interested in really truly expanding and not just kind of raiding and terrorizing its neighbors, and having that done back to them. Let’s not forget that

Dr G 27:49
the Rome I know and love is over. I know,

Dr Rad 27:52
I know. So that’s what the people are up to. The Senate, on the other hand, are toying with the idea of going to war with their former allies, the Latins and the Hernici, and I have to have a little corrections corner here. And this is so alarming. I can’t believe I have been doing this for God knows how long. Honestly, I have somehow been mispronouncing these allies for so long. I just inserted an eye, and so I’ve been saying the Hernicians this whole time. I just inserted an eye. I just saw it, and it just kept being something that I saw, and I visualized, and I suddenly realized everything I’ve been reading has actually said the Hernicans, not the Hernicians. And so I’m sorry, it’s ruined every single episode because I don’t know how many times we’ve talked about these people, but it’s not meant to be the Hernicians.

Dr G 28:55
I mean, I don’t don’t blame yourself too much because I think when it’s written in an anglicized version, it gets turned into Hernicians. So it really does depend on whether you’re looking at the Latin versus the Anglicization.

Dr Rad 29:09
Look, very possibly. I’m hoping that because I was like, oh my god, have I just been inserting an I this whole time, and I never realized that this is not how it’s supposed to be?

Dr G 29:19
I mean.

Dr Rad 29:23
it’s crazy.

Dr G 29:24
I mean, this doesn’t seem like a good time for Rome to decide that maybe they don’t need their allies anymore. I’m just gonna put that out there.

Dr Rad 29:31
Well, no, but remember, there’s been there’s been some issues. Remember, there have been some issues. It’s been tense between their former allies and Rome. We don’t really know exactly the truth of the matter. The Roman accounts seem to be indicating treacherous behavior on their part. It may have been something to do with them renegotiating their relationship, but the Romans obviously are writing this very much like the. Guys, they got no honor. However, they decided that they were going to put this off because at this point in time, war with Etruria was seeming like far more of a problem.

Dr G 30:12
Ooh, ah, the old war with Etruria. All right, so I mean, in terms of like complexities, these are the Etruscans. They’re the Etrurians. They’re the Tyrrhenians. They have so many different names. They do these people to the north of Rome, who are different people, and I do have some details on this. There is an inscription of all things, and I even have a picture of the inscription, which is kind of amazing. An illustration, I should say.

Dr Rad 30:39
Yeah,

Dr G 30:39
and it relates to Camillus, so I don’t want to say too much.

Dr Rad 30:44
I’m about to talk about Camillus. Do you want me to tell you? Yes,

Dr G 30:46
please, because I have some things to say about this inscription, and I’m interested to see what Livy might be suggesting if Camillus is involved.

Dr Rad 30:56
Well, essentially, the Latins and the Hernici, Hernicii, whatever you want to call them. I don’t know what to call them anymore. I’ve completely confused. The people of H. They’re in one direction. They’re kind of in between the Aequians and the Volscians. Etruria, different direction. Even and as you say, it’s not just like one people that they’re fighting. But to the north is mostly where we’re heading here. The government is basically now falling under Camillus. He is one of the military tribunes with consular power. There are a lot of other super elite men from very prestigious families serving alongside him. But let’s be real, Doctor G. The five of them together mean nothing in comparison to one of Camillus. Such is his prestige at this point in time.

Dr G 31:49
He is very famous. It’s true.

Dr Rad 31:52
So they’re naturally just going to, you know, fall into line unto him. And so Livy’s Camillus show continues. So the Romans were not as worried about the war with the Etruscans. However, when some-and this is-I’m quoting my translation here-some fugitives. What exactly does that mean from the Pomptine area arrive to tell the Romans that actually the Antiates are kicking off now. This means people from Antium, which is a coastal town. It has bounced around a lot in terms of who controls it. It’s obviously in an enviable location, given the interest in this particular place. It was Latin. It then fell under Volscian control and does seem to become a very important Volscian location. The Romans have recently defeated it in around 408, so they’ve had some success against this place. So once again, we’re shifting gears a little bit in terms of where our attention should be, the Latins had sent some soldiers to assist in this war that was kicking off. But officially, their government policy was: we’re not a part of it. We have not come out in the open and said that we’re going to do anything. Therefore, Rome cannot be mad. We’re just saying that if some young men of around military age want to volunteer and help out in this conflict that seems to be arising, we’re just not going to prevent them. You know, it’s a it’s a free world, right?

Dr G 33:38
Fair enough. Yeah, get in there, guys.

Dr Rad 33:40
Yeah, the Romans no longer were going to just sit back and ignore these sorts of warnings when they arose. Doctor G, the Senate are eternally grateful at this moment, and they thank the gods that Camillus is there to help them in their time of need. Otherwise, they would have just made him dictator again because, c’mooon.

Dr G 34:02
Oh boy, not

Dr Rad 34:04
again! So it’s purely because he happened to be elected one of the military tribunes that we don’t have yet another Camillus dictatorship at this point in time. Now, as I say, the rest of the military tribunes openly say that look, when it comes to military matters, Camillus, you are the guy. You call all the shots. It is not an insult to us and our reputation. We acknowledge your greatness, and we are not going to try and steal the spotlight from you. You deserve it. And the Senate say, “This is what we want to see, guys.

Dr G 34:42
We want one man rule with all of the illusion of no man rule. That’s what we want. We want everybody to be falling into line with one guy, but we also want to be able to say we’re not ruled by one guy.

Dr Rad 34:58
Yeah. So the Senate. Incredibly impressed by this kind of behavior, and they’re obviously holding these military tribunes up as this is the example we want everyone to follow. No conflict, no fighting for glory. Thank you very much. And Camillus himself is also deeply, deeply moved and touched by their profession, and he thanks them as well. Camillus says that he feels very responsible for the Roman people and the Roman state at this point in time. I mean, he had to leave them just so many times. It’s basically his place now. They may as well rename it, call it after him. I’m just kidding. He didn’t say that. I’m suggesting

Dr G 35:46
an insertion from Doctor Rad sounds just like the source material, though. So exactly, exactly.

Dr Rad 35:52
And the Senate are definitely feeling this way about Camillus as well. However, he feels it even more heavily than usual in 386, and that’s because the other military tribunes have just openly said, “Hey, this is your show, pal. You tell us what to do, and we’ll do it. But we are looking to you for instruction. So it’s just really hitting him-the reality of his leadership. It’s a blessing, but also, what a burden, Doctor G.

Dr G 36:23
it’s hard to be at the top.

Dr Rad 36:25
Exactly. So Camillus says, you know, I just, I only hope I can live up to my previous great deeds, my amazing reputation. I need to make sure that everything stays right this way, and so we’re off war with Antium, Doctor G. Camillus, however, sees this as not a major problem. He doesn’t see Antium as a huge threat at this point in time, but he understands the Romans are feeling a little bit on edge. After all, Gauls, the trauma, the flashbacks, and the Romans had, let’s face it, always made their neighbors super jealous because it’s Rome who doesn’t want to be Rome. I mean, everybody wants to be like them. It’s no wonder they constantly have so many problems. So right now, he sees the strategy is being this: we’re going to need a few different armies and a few different generals to command them. So Camillus says, Publius Valerius, I need you to help me, and Quintus Servilius, I need you to set up your army camp near Rome and just keep a lookout for the Etruscans. Make sure they don’t try anything while we’re dealing with this other problem, and also our former allies, the Latins and the Hernicans. We need to keep a lookout for them too. They’re clearly up to something.

Dr G 37:54
Those guys, our supposed friends. Exactly.

Dr Rad 37:57
Yeah. Nobody’s trusting them at this point in time. Camillus feels very confident that Servilius is an incredibly capable person and would be able to distinguish his ancestors. After all, he has had lengthy service to the state at this point in time. I mean, it’s his sixth time as military tribune, Doctor G. It’s pretty impressive.

Dr G 38:18
Yeah.

Dr Rad 38:19
Now there’s going to be a third army under Lucius Quinctius. This is the Cincinnatus dude, and this is going to be made up of those who are too old or incapable of serving in the regular army, and they are going to stay in Rome itself and defend the city and the walls.

Dr G 38:41
Okay, good plan.

Dr Rad 38:44
He’s covering all his bases here. Yeah, keep

Dr G 38:46
the older and the infirm inside the city, but give them sticks just in case anybody approaches.

Dr Rad 38:51
That’s right. That’s right. Lucius Horatius, lest we forget him, he is going to be in charge of helping to organize the supplies. He is the guy you go to when you need food, corn specifically at this point in time, some sort of grain, missiles, arms and legs, anything you need. This is the guy you go to, and everyone swears to him. Camillus, we’re loving the direction you’re going, and we swear we’re going to do our best for you, pal. We want to distinguish ourselves for you.

Dr G 39:24
Yeah, look. I mean, this doesn’t sound like Roman history at this point. This sounds like the Camillus hagiography because the chances of all of these highly elite men, with some of them with, as you’ve noted, multiple military tribunates under their belt, just falling into step with whatever Camillus suggests seems so unlikely and so very

Dr Rad 39:49
un-Roman. I know it’s spooky, right? This is the power that Camillus has. He just sprinkles his fairy dust, and everything’s fine.

Dr G 39:56
I have concerns.

Dr Rad 40:00
Meanwhile, back in the reality that I’m living in, Valerius is on board with this. He’s very much seeing it as, even though it’s not an official title that’s being bestowed, that Camillus is essentially a dictator, and he is therefore serving as his master of the horse, given that he’s been chosen the prestigious role of assistant.

Dr G 40:22
Guys, I know nobody said it, but I am so master of the horse right now.

Dr Rad 40:27
So people are feeling very confident now. They’re feeling good about Rome’s chances. They’ve got all these guys in charge, and the Senate are saying, “Guys, I mean, there’s really no need for a dictator ever again if people like this serve as military tribunes. I mean, look at them working together, not caring about rank and glory. They’re just putting the well-being of Rome first, not stroking their own egos.

Dr G 41:00
This is the biggest red flag that this is a fictional story. I have to say, Livy

Dr Rad 41:05
wrote it, therefore it is true. Livy, what

Dr G 41:08
are you trying to do to me? This can’t be real.

Dr Rad 41:12
They’re just highlighting that this is the direction they really want Rome to go.

Dr G 41:16
That’s fine, but that is not the same as writing a history of how Rome went,

Dr Rad 41:22
Camillus and Valerius-they got to get busy, Doctor G. All legal business must be suspended. It’s time for a levy. We got to get this show on the road. Come on, people. Yeah, I think the fact that Camillus is doing this-it does show that they are taking this quite seriously. You know, they’re suspending business and whatnot. So they are heading out for Satricum first of all. We’re talking about Satricum. It is a little bit further in from the coast and Antium, as I understand it. Although you are the geography expert of of this show. I’m not going to pretend I really understand geography or directions.

Dr G 42:08
I do have some details for you on this, so I can jump in here. This comes to us courtes of courtesy of Diodorus Siculus, who really gives me nothing for this year, which is pretty on par for him, because he’s much more interested in what’s going on with Greece than he is with what’s going on with Rome. Nevertheless, he gets three quarters of the names of the tribunes right, so good for him. But he’s way more invested in Boeotia than he is invested in Rome right now. But he also says that the Romans dispatch 500 colonists who are exempt from taxes. Very important detail to Sardinia, and you might think that doesn’t sound relevant at all. But what we do know and what we do think is that Rome is not interested in Sardinia at this point because how could they be? One, it’s too far away, and they’ve got local problems, as you’ve well established already.

Dr Rad 43:06
Absolutely,

Dr G 43:07
and they don’t really become interested in Sardinia until much later on in the piece. We’re talking about the Punic Wars, but we think that this is a misreading of Satricum.

Dr Rad 43:18
Ah, okay,

Dr G 43:20
And however this story turns out, we end up getting some colonists sent there in the end. And Satricum obviously is in Latium, which is way closer to Rome, which makes more sense. And it is approximately 60 kilometers southeast of Rome.

Dr Rad 43:41
Yes,

Dr G 43:42
so it’s down in the Alban Hills region, and it’s just on the edge of the infamous Pontine Marshes.

Dr Rad 43:51
Exactly. So it seems to be this is the problem area, right? And it’s not obviously it’s not too far for the Volscians. It’s kind of close to the erstwhile allies, who Rome is now questioning: Are you actually at all? So that’s why we’re heading to this place, because this is allegedly where the Antietes are starting to gather up young men from the Volscians, traditional enemies of Rome, and also a large number of these volunteers from the Latins and the Hernicans, and it seems like they had lots of men at this point in time because potentially there hasn’t been as much warfare on their doorstep as traditionally there has been

Dr G 44:42
while Rome has been distracted with the Gauls for a single year. 20,000 new men have grown to full adulthood to the south. Watch out, everybody! That’s

Dr Rad 44:56
right. That’s right. The Roman soldiers. Are extremely concerned about this relationship that they see developing between their former allies and their traditional enemies. They don’t like it one bit, Doctor G. They don’t like it at all. The Centurions go to Camillus and they say, “Look, the troops are feeling a bit down at this whole situation. We’re not going to lie, Camillus. The morale has taken a serious hit. I mean, this is much worse than coming home and finding out that your wife has been cheating on you

Dr Rad 45:30
to see our former allies behaving this way. I mean, I just can’t take it. How am I supposed to fight a war under these conditions,

Dr G 45:41
Dear Marcia. I’ve lost all my morale.

Dr Rad 45:45
I thought Ted was my friend. We have fought side by side so many times, and then I see him on the battlefield with those Volscians, and I tell you, I was sick to my stomach.

Dr G 46:03
gonna have to rip his eyeballs out, and I’m gonna cry when I do it.

Dr Rad 46:08
I take no pleasure in this anymore. So they’re feeling outnumbered, outmanned. Camillus hears all of this and immediately, of course, jumps on his horse and gets ready to rally the troops because this is a Camillus moment. Yeah, yeah. Uh oh.

Dr G 46:51
Oh no.

Dr Rad 46:53
So Camillus says to the assembled Romans, “What the hell, guys? Do you not know who you are? Do you not know who you are fighting? Your Romans-they’re trash. What is going on here? The enemy is always just an opportunity for the Romans to kick ass and win glory. That’s what we do, guys. That’s what this whole reputation is based on. We’re gonna make history on this battlefield because that is what we have always done. And why should today be any different? And he starts to point out that when they have served under him, I mean, let’s listen, Doctor G. Why not against the Falerii, against the city of Ae, and lest we forget the Gauls, the Romans have proved themselves time and time again. The combination of Camillus and Roman forces is guaranteed victory. I mean, it’s a no-brainer. Lest they forget, it’s only just happened that Camillus celebrated a triumph for three victories that he seemingly achieved within almost a day.

Dr G 48:20
It was confusing that too. Not gonna lie. I mean, at

Dr Rad 48:23
most a week, he managed to triumph over the Volscians, very people they’re looking at right now, and the Aequians and the Etrurians. I mean, they’re basically fighting the same people right now. Or are they all freaked out in their heads? Do they have a problem because Camillus is somehow not a dictator right now? Is that affecting the way that they look at him, and therefore rattling them? I mean, Camillus is just such a superstar, Doctor G. He doesn’t want to have to have the power of dictator when he is commander. He’s the same guy, regardless of his title, and they need to understand that whether he’s a dictator, whether he’s in exile. Camillus is Camillus. Come on, he’s just awesome wherever he is. That’s his brand, Doctor G. The Romans should also feel the same about themselves, regardless of the situation. They are awesome, and Camillus knows as soon as the battle starts, they will show that, and they will be victorious, and the enemy will just flee. That’s how it always goes.

Dr G 49:44
This does not seem like the rousing speech he may have hoped.

Dr Rad 49:48
I don’t know, Doctor G. I mean, are you doubting Camillus? I

Dr G 49:52
am just a little bit, and maybe Livy’s version of Camillus as well. It just seems a little bit preposterous at this point.

Dr Rad 49:59
Temple of Mars. Just gonna say, always accurate. I mean,

Dr G 50:03
one example of accuracy does not an accurate historian always make. It’s

Dr Rad 50:11
all I need. So Camila Sen decides that he’s going to lead the charge personally, just to add that extra bit of inspiration. Yes, yes. This is what makes Camillus such a legend, Doctor G. And so he leaps off his horse. He grabs the nearest standard bearer and he races with him towards the enemy forces, crying out, “Forward, soldiers! Ah, the soldiers, of course, are like, “Oh my God, what am I watching just here? My commander is charging into battle. He’s got the standards, and I mean, lest we forget, Doctor G. Camillus, he’s no spring chicken anymore. For an old dude to be behaving this way, the Romans have no choice but to get all fired up and to follow his lead with the passion that he’s called for.

Dr G 51:06
Now this is a story which is also related by Frontinus, and I’ve just got a little very short excerpt which says that he seized the standard bearer by the hand, dragged him forcibly into the hostile ranks of the Volscian. The standard bearer

Dr Rad 51:25
is like, “What? What’s happening right now? Yeah, yeah. Why are

Dr G 51:28
you doing this? I

Dr Rad 51:29
signed up to hold the standard.

Dr G 51:31
My job is just this whole stick, guys. Why would you endanger the standard like this? You know, the sacred standard is now completely endangered by Camillus. Good job, but this. shames everybody into fighting because obviously, if you lose the standard, it’s an absolute disaster. So they need to get involved. So regardless of how they felt, and maybe they the morale was low, but for whatever reason they were hesitating. It seems like we have this story of Camillus going above and beyond, and also taking this huge risk because if he’s wandering into the enemy ranks, he’s like, “All right, guys, follow me. Stand a bearer beside me. Like, no, why?

Dr Rad 52:15
Why? Well, Livy’s does actually record that there is an alternative version to this story of Camillus taking the hand of the standard bearer and skipping gaily towards the Volscians, which is that he orders the standard bearer to throw the standards into the enemy forces.

Dr G 52:33
Even worse,

Dr Rad 52:34
yeah. Which means that obviously the Roman soldiers are like,

Dr G 52:38
oh man, now I have to. It’s like our ball

Dr Rad 52:40
going over the neighbor’s fence. Now we have to go and fetch it back. God damn

Dr G 52:45
it! I’ve been outwitted again. This Camillus guy really knows his stuff.

Dr Rad 52:50
Strategy, all the way. So the Roman enthusiasm and passion that has been stirred up by Camillus now freaks out the enemy forces, just as Camillus had intended. Doctor G. The Volscians are also naturally quaking in their little boots that Camillus is there at all because he’s been on a real winning streak recently, and they know that because they apparently were some of the people that he has just beaten,

Dr G 53:24
yeah. Look, I mean, they’ve probably been collecting the commemorative trading cards that have been going around, and it’s like, oh no, Camillus is here. He’s the special one. I don’t know. I’ve had him in my debt for a while, but I didn’t know he was going to be played at this event.

Dr Rad 53:39
Now, Camillus’s power on the battlefield can really be seen at this moment when the fighting has actually begun on the left wing of the Roman forces, because the Romans were struggling a bit there, even though obviously there’s no doubt that they’re going to win this battle. There’s a little wobble here, and so Camillus, of course, jumps on his horse, heads over to the left wing, and him just being there immediately turns the battle right around, and he’s able to tell them, “Hey guys, the rest of the army, they’re winning. What’s happening here? Let’s win here too. And the Romans say, “No problem, Camillus. We just needed to hear that from you. All good. We’re gonna win, don’t you worry. So the Romans are now doing very well. However, let’s not pretend that it was too easy. Still a challenge here because they are seemingly very outnumbered by the unity, I suppose, between the Latins, the Hernica’s, and the Volscians. So it is still challenging, and the Romans start to get a little tired. I’m not going to lie, Dr. G, and they realize, this is going to be a real slog if we’re going to continue fighting. Because they just keep coming. They’ve got endless supplies here. Apparently, how do they do it? Nobody knows. The math doesn’t add up. But then all of a sudden, a change in the weather, Doctor G. It becomes incredibly windy and super, super heavy rain. Not ideal conditions for a battle, and it meant that the battle had to finish there because nobody can fight in this kind of weather. Before the Romans could 100% be like, yes, we definitely triumphed on that battlefield. There is no doubt. There’s a little doubt. There is a little doubt. So they all have to walk off the battlefield, go get some shut eye. But it’s during this time period, whilst the Romans are sleeping, whilst time is passing, that the campaign starts to turn in their favor because those faithless Latins and Hernikans, Dr. G, they decide that they’re going to leave the Volscians and just go home. They didn’t sign up for this kind of weather.

Dr G 56:08
I thought it was going to be easier, to be honest, if they just change sides.

Dr Rad 56:14
You promise that Camillus like would not be here. I did not sign up for this, so yeah, an Audi. So the Volscians then have to wake up and realize that their allies, not allies, volunteer forces, whatever you want to call them, have abandoned them, and so they’re like, “This is a dangerous situation. I think we better leave our camp and go and retreat behind the walls of Satricum itself.

Dr G 56:45
This

Dr Rad 56:46
is Camillus’s specialty, Doctor. Now he can commence his assault on the city itself. So he is getting ready for a siege situation. However, the Volscians-they don’t kind of really try to stop him from assaulting the city per se. Okay. And Camillus is realizing, hmm, I don’t think these people are going to fight me tooth and nail right now. This seems like maybe this will be not too difficult a victory here. So Camillus tells his troops that this is not going to be another they kind of situation where it’s just endless resistance and a siege that never

Dr G 57:40
Years later, yeah,

Dr Rad 57:42
exactly, yeah. He’s like, I don’t think this is going to be too complicated. Therefore, what we’re going to do is take this nice and easy. He’s basically going to use the men that he has to approach the city from every single direction, and they manage to take it just by using ladders.

Dr G 58:03
What?

Dr Rad 58:04
And once they’re over the walls, the Volscians are like, “Oh damn, ladders!

Dr G 58:08
Wow, so clever! And they

Dr Rad 58:11
just throw their weapons aside and surrender. Okay, okay. I don’t know if I have much to add to that. That sounds almost wholly implausible, but here we are. Congratulations, Camillus. Well done, Rome. What can I say, Doctor G? I tried to tell you that he would be successful many a time, and you refused to believe in his greatness.

Dr G 58:39
Yes, I suppose that was a mistake on my part.

Dr Rad 58:43
Yeah, it really was. Now, this is actually an interesting moment. The Volscians allegedly just throwing aside their weapons and surrendering in this way. This is obviously meant to be indicating unconditional surrender on their part, and this would be seen as a very shameful position to be in. Like the Romans themselves would not enjoy being in that particular scenario. You’d also obviously want to be really certain that this wasn’t just a ploy on their behalf; that they’re not making a show of throwing away their weapons only to stab you in the back the minute that you start to let down your guard. So this is this is something that may be referring to a deditio, okay? Like basically accepting this kind of resolution of a conflict.

Dr G 59:52
Interesting. It doesn’t strike me that thereshould be a reason for that at this point in time. That seems like a quick turnaround from. Fighting with the possibility of victory to be just like I give up.

Dr Rad 1:00:05
Well, they’re allies. They they left them in the night, Doctor G.

Dr G 1:00:08
Well, sure, but it’s not like the Volscians aren’t interested in fighting Rome all of the time. Any time.

Dr Rad 1:00:13
Look, I’m not saying that this is going to be the end of warfare between the Volscians and Rome. It’s just in this particular moment, it might be the case that they are officially handing over their weapons. In other situations, they might be asked to hand over leaders. They might be asked to hand over hostages. All sorts of things, just to make sure that they are really surrendering, and it’s not just a trick.

Dr G 1:00:41
Well, I guess that remains to be seen. Well, I don’t think that there is any call for me to bring in my inscriptural evidence at this point. Epigraphy, it can wait because it’s got nothing to do with the story you just told me. Okay, well,

Dr Rad 1:00:55
I do have a little bit more to the story if you would like to hear what Camillus says next, because after Satricum has been taken, Doctor G, it’s now time to start thinking about Antium.

Dr G 1:01:05
Nope, that’s not what the inscription’s about either.

Dr Rad 1:01:09
This is what Livy’s talking about.

Dr G 1:01:12
Livy’s on a whole different trajectory to anything that I’ve got right now.

Dr Rad 1:01:16
Antium is to blame for the whole situation that just went down at Satricum, Doctor G, and therefore Camillus now has to deal with that place and the Volscians there. So you see, it’s just the Volscian forces at Satricum that he’s dealing with there. Now Camillus knows he’s going to need a huge amount of artillery and siege equipment to even think about taking on a place like Antium, it apparently has very strong defenses. So Camillus leaves Valerius with the army and goes back to Rome to ask the Senate to commit to taking down Antium once and for all. Because whilst the Romans seem to have obviously had previous victories there. It I think it definitely still seems to be under Volscian control, essentially. Now, as Camillus is talking to the Senate, envoys turn up from places called I think it’s Nepete and Sutrium.

Dr G 1:02:19
Okay. So this is

Dr Rad 1:02:21
modern day Nepi and Sutri. They are slightly to the north of Veii.

Dr G 1:02:29
Yes, we are now talking about Etruscans. Wait a minute, my inscription might be relevant.

Dr Rad 1:02:35
There you go. Now they are wanting help from Rome to deal with the Etruscans, and they say, “Look, Rome, if you do not come now, it might be too late altogether. Time is

Dr G 1:02:50
of the essence. Intriguing.

Dr Rad 1:02:53
So it seems that the gods were indicating that they do not want the Romans to take on Antium at this moment, and steal once and for all the jewel in the Volscian crown. Fortune herself is providing Camillus with a distraction, because he’s going to have to go and deal with those Etruscans after all, and the Volscians. I’ll have to wait for another day, Doctor G. The

Dr G 1:03:23
drama. All right. Well, I don’t think it’s time to bring in my inscription just yet, so I’m just going to leave that aside. I’m going to place that as a a moment of suspense for everybody. That inscription is coming, but this might be a good place to wrap things up.

Dr Rad 1:03:42
I was going to say there’s a whole lot more detail about what Camillus gets up to in 386, so that’s probably a good cliffhanger. What’s going to happen to Antium? What’s going to happen to the north of Rome? I can only assume it’s going to be more victory, Doctor G.

Dr G 1:03:58
More Camillus, more of the

Dr Rad 1:04:01
time. All right, Dr. G. Well, you know what that means. It’s time for the partial pick. All right, Dr. G. Please tell us how does the partial pick work.

Dr G 1:04:17
Well, Rome is judged by a number of categories, five precisely. They can earn up to 10 golden eagles in each category, and if they are successfully Roman enough, they’ll earn 50 golden eagles.

Dr Rad 1:04:32
I haven’t got close yet. No.

Dr G 1:04:33
Our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 1:04:38
Well, I mean, 10 out of 10. Need I say more?

Dr G 1:04:44
I don’t. I mean, it is true that they’re victorious, but they do have some struggles along the way, including morale and having to throw the whole standard slash and the standard bearer into the enemy to get the thing. A

Dr Rad 1:05:01
smaller price to pay for victory, Doctor G.

Dr G 1:05:03
It turned out all right in the end, but it could have gone really badly. And they are aided by the fact that their frenemies-I’m just going to still call them Hernicians. I think their their Latin frenemies run away and make it make defeat a potential, whereas it didn’t seem like it was on the cards before. So, I’m happy to give them something like a seven or an eight.

Dr Rad 1:05:30
Are you seriously going to punish the Romans for the wind and the rain? They would have won, Doctor G. They were so close.

Dr G 1:05:36
I am not. I’m going to punish them for one not believing in themselves, and two taking very risky actions with their standards.

Dr Rad 1:05:51
Hey, the Romans are people too. Can they help it if they got a little sad when they saw their former allies had hooked up with their enemies, their traditional and long-standing enemies.

Dr G 1:06:03
Why are you leaving the party? I have to. My feelings are

Dr Rad 1:06:07
hurt. All right. Look, I’ll agree to an eight. I’ll accept eight.

Dr G 1:06:12
Excellent. Let us move on then to diplomacy, for which I think is a big zero.

Dr Rad 1:06:19
Well, okay. Hang on a second. Just hold your horses, there, Missy.

Dr G 1:06:24
Who do they negotiate with? Nobody.

Dr Rad 1:06:26
Well, no, no, no, no. These people have turned up from the north, and Camillus is willing, and seemingly also the Senate are willing to put aside their own immediate interests in taking down the Volscians and Antium to help them against the Etruscans, I feel like that is somewhat diplomatic.

Dr G 1:06:53
I will give them one point for that.

Dr Rad 1:06:55
Oh come on! Camillus was on a roll. He’d just taken a city, and now he’s got to take another one. But he has to stop.

Dr G 1:07:04
Those Romans know they can’t take Antium. They need a strategic break while they build up their siege engine material. I don’t think so. Come on,

Dr Rad 1:07:12
two, one for each place.

Dr G 1:07:14
One for each place.

Dr Rad 1:07:15
Well, yeah, they’ve you know two two cities, two towns coming and asking for help?

Speaker 2 1:07:20
No. Fine.

Dr G 1:07:24
I must resist this. No, this is an intestine inflation.

Dr Rad 1:07:29
You’ll be sorry. The Romans don’t get more diplomatic than that. Sure,

Dr G 1:07:34
I’ll fight some people for you. All right, expansion.

Dr Rad 1:07:39
So I don’t feel like we can give them points for expansion in this year with the whole Satricum situation because at the moment I feel like it’s more a military defeat per se, and there might be more to come on that in future years. But I don’t know if I’ll give them points for an expansion just yet,

Dr G 1:08:03
so no points.

Dr Rad 1:08:06
No points for that, I don’t think. But there might be points in the future. Yeah,

Dr G 1:08:10
listen in to future episodes to find out if Rome eventually takes Satricum for itself. All right. This leads us to the fourth category, which is virtus.

Dr Rad 1:08:24
Ooh. Well. Okay. I feel like maybe Camillus and the standard bearer deserve some weirdus points. You know, running into the enemy like that. Crazy kids that they are.

Dr G 1:08:34
It’s the kind of chaos that Romans in when it goes well would be like, yeah, that that was pretty weird to us, and when it goes badly, they’re like, “We have to kill him.

Dr Rad 1:08:47
That’s how it works, and you know, it’s worked out in this particular situation. So I feel like, and you know, he’s old.

Dr G 1:08:52
How old? I mean, what are we talking?

Dr Rad 1:08:55
He’s Yoda at this point. Does

Dr G 1:08:59
he have gray hair? I don’t know.

Dr Rad 1:09:02
Livy explicitly points out that one of the things that shames Romans into action is that Camillus is acting in this way, and he’s much much older than they are.

Dr G 1:09:12
I see. Well, okay. So the silver fox is out there doing what the young ones can’t.

Dr Rad 1:09:18
Yeah. I mean, technically, I feel like Camillus actually should have been part of those forces that stayed behind in Rome, defending the walls. You know what I’m saying?

Dr G 1:09:26
Wow. All right. Yeah. Okay. So, in terms of virtus, maybe a five.

Dr Rad 1:09:33
Yeah, I think so. Because I take your point about the risk, but that’s kind of what virtus is, isn’t it? It’s

Dr G 1:09:39
well, you can’t have glory without the risk, can you? Yeah,

Dr Rad 1:09:42
exactly.

Dr G 1:09:44
And our final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:09:48
Hmm, I’m conflicted on this note. They are going to war.

Dr G 1:09:55
Not good.

Dr Rad 1:09:56
Not great. However, they’re going to war under Camillus. Is it that bad? And there is that hint of the land issues, you know, bubbling away in the background. There,

Dr G 1:10:08
they have low morale

Dr Rad 1:10:10
for a moment. For a moment, jeez, really halfing on about that. Just

Dr G 1:10:18
following Livy’s narrative here.

Dr Rad 1:10:20
They have low morale for a moment because of the whole former ally situation, backstabbing, treachery, and whatnot. I feel like maybe like a three. Yeah, it’s not like the worst. Like they’re winning.

Dr G 1:10:37
Yeah, yeah, they’re winning, but yeah, I’m not sure that they’re having the greatest time. So and yes, the tension to do with the land issue that seems to be in the background cannot be overlooked. So three, sure. All

Dr Rad 1:10:51
right, that means Dr. G that the Romans have got a total of 17 golden eagles. Not too bad.

Dr G 1:10:59
That’s pretty good for them, I would say.

Dr Rad 1:11:02
Indeed. Well, as you can see, Dr. G, there is so much more to come in the rest of 386, and I dare say you might hear the name Camillus again.

Dr G 1:11:13
Oh no!

Dr Rad 1:11:23
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious, and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collectivemem.com. Today, we would like to send our gratitude to our newest Patreons, Medea of the Palatine, Captain Ducky, Lee, Ropetric, Saph, and apparently the one and only M. Furius Camillus. If you would also like to enjoy early access to our special episodes and ad-free content, please consider becoming a partial Patreon too. However, if you are also in the midst of some complicated land redistribution, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five-star review. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 176 – Throwing the Standard appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

It’s 387 BCE and Rome is working on getting back of her feet. What’s even happening in Rome? It can be hard to tell because of the nature of the extant sources and just how much seems to be missing. The Gallic Sack casts a long shadow over Rome, it was just a couple of years ago but the consequences of the situation linger. Livy notes that Rome is continuing its rebuilding program.

If there’s one thing you can count on in this era, it’s the cyclical focus on war and land allotment. And we have a tribune of the plebs on the record, which is a hint that there’ll be agitation for agrarian reform. We know this has a literary legacy for our late Republican writers like Livy, but that’s not to say that there wasn’t a need to reform in the middle republic. Enter stage right: the Pomptine Marshes!

Back during the conflict with Gauls, the Romans had vowed to establish a temple to Mars. And we’re finally up to the dedication of the temple in 387 BCE. This is an exceptionally important event for the Romans as it is way of cementing their relationship with Mars. A temple requires some specific activities to establish and seems to have involved the duumvirs for the sacred things.

Did you know that Carthage invaded Italy in 387 BCE? Neither did we, but here we are! The rivalry between the Carthaginians and the Sicilians is starting to hot up but unfortunately a quick plague makes everything very unpleasant.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Additional sound effects:
– Pixabay

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

The post Episode 175 – Of Mars and Marshes appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Welcome back to Rome’s rebuilding era! It’s a year of reasserting dominance, crafting fancy hewn stones for building works, and getting the citizen body back in order.

After seemingly managing to defeat three of Rome’s enemies at once, Camillus was back in Rome, basking in his glory. Unfortunately, his success seems to have meant a life in slavery for many of the conquered people. Camillus auctioned these prisoners off, using the proceeds to pay back the Roman matrons and buy the city some gold bowls, engraved with his name.

The Romans were trying to get back to business as usual after the Gallic sack. This involved granting citizenship to any people who had switched sides during the conflicts of the past decade or so. Welcome to the cleerrrb.

There were also some reluctant Roman citizens still hanging out in Veii, and that just would not do. The senate issued a decree ordering them back to Rome – OR ELSE.

A section of Hadrian’s wall near Carlisle, featuring some modest hewn stones. Original image from zoonabar on Flickr, also located on World History Encyclopedia where it was uploaded by Jan van der Crabben on 26th April 2012.

The Romans had to do some rebuilding after the Gallic sack, as we know, but why not make some improvements whilst they were at it? Livy records that the Capitol was given a substructure of hewn stone, which he thought was still impressive in his own time.

Image

Never a city that revels in peace, the Romans decided to attack some of the people who had tried to take advantage of their moment of weakness in 390 BCE. The Aequians and some Etruscan towns found themselves the victims of sudden assaults. Payback is a bitch!

T. Quinctius (T. f. L. n.) Cincinnatus Capitolinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 385?, 384

Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 402, 398, 395, 390, 386

L. Iulius -f. -n. Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 379

L. Aquilius -f. -n. Corvus

L. Lucretius -f. -n. Flavus Tricipitinus (Pat) Cos. Suff. 393, Mil. Tr. c.p. 391, 383, 381

Ser. Sulpicius – f. -n. Rufus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 384, 383, 377?

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome, everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad,

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:58
Hello, and welcome back to the partial historians. I am Dr. G,

Dr Rad 1:04
and I am Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:06
And today we are going to be looking at 388 or thereabouts, BCE in Roman history.

Dr Rad 1:15
Yeah, so, but before we get into that, Dr. G, we need to recap the very important things that Marcus Furius Camillus, the star of ancient Rome, who perhaps nobody outside Roman historians has ever heard of. What was he up to in 389 BC? Because that’s really what my ancient accounts are all about at the moment. Everything else is just a backdrop.

Dr G 1:39
He was up to everything, if we believe Livy, he was here, there, and everywhere. He was a man who could just turn up at the scene of a potential battle, and the enemy would fall at their feet, being like, ‘You’ve turned up, we couldn’t possibly fight now.

Dr Rad 1:54
Yes, he did carry victory entirely before him against the many enemies of ancient Rome, who were seeming taking great delight in the fact that the Romans had just had their asses handed to them by the Gauls.

Dr G 2:09
Yeah, I mean, when better to have a guy with such fearful charisma that the enemy literally falls down at their feet at the very sight of him than on the back of Rome having its lowest of lows in the Gallic sack.

Dr Rad 2:23
Yeah, so we saw him deal with the Volscians, then the Aequians, and then finally the evil Etruscans, who decided to attack a very pitiful ally of ancient Rome, and I say pitiful just in the sense that the way Livy described their conquest was very sad.

Dr G 2:45
Look, Sutrium was saved in the end,

Dr Rad 2:49
exactly. I mean, it might hold the distinction of being, you know, one of the only places in the ancient world to change hands several times in the course of one day,

Dr G 2:58
a noble distinction, I am sure,

Dr Rad 3:01
exactly, and you know, I do really love the idea that you know in the morning you thought you’d lost everything, and nighttime you were back in bed with your hot coco and blessing the name of Camillus.

Dr G 3:14
What a time to be alive! It’s a chaotic period. We really don’t know what’s going on very much, because the Fasti Capitolini, our list of magistrates is missing for these years. We also have highly fragmentary sources. Currently, Livy is pretty much the only source in town that has a continuous narrative to share with us, and

Dr Rad 3:35
he’s mine. He’s mine. I suppose the one thing that’s kind of interesting, which we did highlight last time, and then we can move on from all of this, but even though we might have some serious doubts about how involved Camillus was in some of these events, and even though the chronology is a little different between my account and your account, at the same time Diodorus did also include a lot of these same conquests that Camillus was apparently involved in, so clearly there is some sort of association between him and dealing with Rome’s enemies in the area of central Italy at this point in time.

Dr G 4:15
Yeah, definitely, this is the story that seems to get passed down and recorded by all of our available sources, and even to the extent to which some scholars would like to classify Camillus as a literary figure rather than a historical figure, somebody’s got to be doing something at this point in time, because Rome does survive the Gallic sack, and this is almost – we’re sitting at what feels like is going to be a turning point for Roman history, because once we get out of this sort of hazy period of what’s going on with the chronology, Rome is going to start being on the up and up in a way that we have not yet seen since the beginning of the city,

Dr Rad 4:57
that’s right, and so Dr. G, please do. With me in my time machine as I take us back to 388 BC

Dr G 5:20
Wow, 388 BCE. What a time to be alive as a Roman

Dr Rad 5:35
Dr. G. Please tell me, what kind of magistrates do we have, and who are they?

Dr G 5:39
Well, it is one of the few things I can tell you about this year. Let me commence. It is apparently a year where we have military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 5:51
I shall try and conceal my surprise.

Dr G 5:55
We’ll be out of this phase of Roman history soon, but not yet. We still have some time to go. There are six, apparently, which is almost the maximum number we see for this group, and there are some familiar families in here. So we start off with Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus Capitolinus, a patrician, and this might be the first time we’ve seen him, but he will go on to hold positions in the future as well. We then have Quintus Servilius Fidenas. Now he was previously a military tribune in 402 also 398 also 395 also 390 So where anybody who’s listening who doesn’t remember this guy, get with the program, he has been around a lot.

Dr Rad 6:44
Well, he’s from the civili, or the civili if you prefer, and that’s a pretty famous family, and that name Fidenas, that would associate his family with the conquest of Fidenae, I suppose. Yes, yes,

Dr G 7:01
and so, yes, he comes from a family lineage of some distinction,

Dr Rad 7:05
exactly.

Dr G 7:06
Clearly, a patrician. We then have Lucius Iulius Iullus, also a patrician, but first time in this role. And then perhaps my favorite figure from this list, because I want to get into this guy a little bit later. Lucius Aquilius Corvus,

Dr Rad 7:25
Little red corvette!

Dr G 7:29
a man with two interesting bird names.

Dr Rad 7:33
Oh, okay, bird names:

Dr G 7:36
Aquila the eagle and Corvus the raven.

Dr Rad 7:40
Ah, I didn’t know Corvus meant the raven. Okay, cool, cool.

Dr G 7:45
And perhaps more interesting from our perspective, plebeian question mark.

Dr Rad 7:52
Oh, actually, you know what? I didn’t notice when I was writing all these names down that I didn’t have my usual little pat abbreviation after his name, intrigue, intrigue.

Dr G 8:04
Yes, put a pin in that. We’ll come back to this guy.

Dr Rad 8:06
Yep, yep, he’s

Dr G 8:07
number four on our list. Sitting squarely in number five is Lucius Lucretius Flavus Tricipitinus Patrician, previously a suffect consul in 393 and the military tribune in 391 and we’ll see him again in the future.

Dr Rad 8:26
Yep,

Dr G 8:27
he was the guy who famously waged a war against the aequians, and also proposed dividing up the territory of Veii.

Dr Rad 8:36
Controversial,

Dr G 8:38
and it remains controversial. We have not figured out what’s going on with Veii yet.

Dr Rad 8:42
No,

Dr G 8:42
and finally, last but not least, Servilius Sulpicius Rufus, also a patrician, and he’ll go on to hold some magisterial positions in the future as well.

Dr Rad 8:56
Excellent.

Dr G 8:56
Some debate about which Sulpicius Rufus this guy might be where we’re sort of in that period of time, where, and also, thank you, Rome, for always naming people with the same names, so when there’s any doubt about who somebody is, and it’s like, is it the brother, is it the other cousin, does it come from this line over here? So there are some question marks about which Sulpicius Rufus, but he seemed one of them was in there.

Dr Rad 9:20
It is kind of interesting, actually, because the Romans are so obsessed with being remembered, obviously, which I understand. I mean, I think all humans have that instinct in them for some reason, and I guess it kind of testifies to the way that for the Romans, even though, yes, your personal reputation means a lot, it also is about really, at the end of the day, the glory of your family, so it’s like, does it matter, the brother, the father, whatever, as long as it’s from the silpikii, that’s the main point, guys. It’s my family, we’re the ones that are awesome,

Dr G 9:55
somebody’s carrying the honor, and that’s what’s important

Dr Rad 9:58
around,

Dr Rad 9:58
exactly, exactly. Now, speaking of honor, Dr. G, Camillus is on his victory lap after his glorious triple triumph. He’s back in Rome. He, of course, gets awarded a triumph because apparently the Romans look at his conquests as being victorious in three simultaneous wars, which has got to be an accomplishment, simultaneous wars difficult to wage.

Dr G 10:26
Yeah, three at once as well. Goodness me, the myth, the man, the legend, that is Camillus,

Dr Rad 10:32
exactly. Now he has a huge amount of prisoners that he’s captured, particularly from the Etruscan peoples. Just thought that was something worth mentioning, that the Romans are imagining that they are already factoring into a triumph. We don’t often talk about the flip side of what the Romans are up to here, but, and it’s not just the Romans, to be fair, it is, I think, kind of standard understanding in a lot of ancient society is that if you lose a war, there’s a very good chance you’re going to end up being someone’s slave if you are not killed, which is a sad side effect of all of this. Now he decides he’s going to sell them under the spear, so that’s sub hasta. It’s basically the idea is that this a spear would be standing in the ground, and it’s like a representation of the authority of Rome as a state, and it comes to basically mean that he’s selling these people at a public sale, or at auction, is the way that we perhaps would understand it, and he makes so much money selling all of these Etruscan prisoners that the matrons in Rome have the value of the gold that they had contributed way back when the Gauls were around a couple of years ago given back to them. Oh, wow. Okay, they get a return on their investment. Camillus is like, you know, what? I pay my debts, and I’m going to do it in a horrible way by selling people into slavery. You’re welcome, Roman Matrons. He’s looking at you, kid.

Dr G 12:13
Yeah, okay, yeah. It’s hard to feel super positive about this.

Dr Rad 12:17
It is

Dr G 12:18
both good that the women are getting their money back, but it is unfortunate. Okay, so this is the undercurrent that runs through most of Rome’s history, and we’re starting to see its presence more and more, because Rome, through the nature of conquest, is taking prisoners. What do you do with prisoners? They become a resource that you sell.

Dr Rad 12:41
Yeah,

Dr G 12:41
so enslaved people are on the rise as soon as Rome goes through this process.

Dr Rad 12:49
Yes, and whenever we talk about the fact that people are fighting over the booty, or they’re keen to have booty, or the commanders aren’t dividing the booty up fairly, all of these sorts of references that we make, the sources obviously aren’t explicit at this moment in time about what that booty actually entails, and I know we joke that it’s just the one pair of sandals that’s being traded backwards and forwards in the area, but realistically it probably also does include humans who have been conquered or taken obviously, Rome’s warfare at this moment in time is not as gigantic as they would like us to believe. I mean, how else does a man wage three simultaneous wars at once if they’re not all in a fairly close geographic location in ancient times, but you have to assume that there is some conquest going on, and that slavery is sometimes a part of the deal. Hopefully, it’s not super large scale. I basically is what I’m trying to say at this moment in time, because it is fairly low-level warfare, and often it does seem to be raiding, you know, raiding each other’s fields, and you know, just actually genuinely being annoying most of the time, but it does show that there’s this shadowy undercurrent to these accounts, which, whilst we obviously have to question the, you know, how big these wars are and how important they are, and that sort of thing, I don’t doubt that there is some slavery going on at this early stage. That part I do believe it’s just a question, obviously, of how much, you know, how many people are we talking about, what kind of work are they being put to, and unfortunately that kind of detail often doesn’t make it into our source material.

Dr G 14:37
Yes, we will see this increase over time, for sure.

Dr Rad 14:40
To connect to what we were talking about before, actually, the reason why Camillus probably has so many Etruscan prisoners is that you might recall that one of the ways that he managed to deal with the situation in Sutrium, which the Etruscans had attacked, because it was a Roman ally, is he said he wasn’t going to kill anyone unless they were holding a weapon, and a lot of. People chose to, therefore, put their weapons down, and things resolved quite peacefully. But this is where we can see that, oh yeah, you didn’t get killed, but you still got taken prisoner. You basically had to choose life as a slave or death in that moment.

Dr G 15:21
Yeah, there is no just walk away, and we’ll leave you alone. There is still a price to be paid.

Dr Rad 15:26
No. And to be fair, I think, I think if the shoe was on the other foot, the Etruscans probably would have done a similar thing. You know, it’s.. I think it is kind of what a lot of people would have done at this moment in time. However, he makes so much money from the sale of these people that there is actually money left over. Dr. G, there’s extra in the till. Oh, I know it’s hard to celebrate this when we know where the money is coming from, but not only is he able to give the money back to the women. So, I mean, what an investment for them. They get to look like heroes, and they’re only out of pocket for two years. Well done, matrons, but there’s enough left over to make three golden bowls.

Dr G 16:09
Well, Camillus does like a golden bowl, we know this.

Dr Rad 16:13
He really does, it’s his thing. Yes, and they are inscribed with Camillus’s name, and apparently were stored in the Temple of Jupiter at Juno’s feet until there was a fire on the Capitoline in 83 BCE. Oh, those balls stick around for quite some time. They, well, I mean, they’re gold, Dr. G doesn’t tarnish.

Dr G 16:37
Okay, I this is a moment where I’d like to mention coinage,

Dr Rad 16:41
okay,

Dr G 16:42
because Rome doesn’t operate with coinage as far as we’re aware at this period of time, and actually doesn’t technically develop coinage until about 280 BC. We’ve got another century to go of, like, how is Rome doing economics, because when we say, you know, the matrons got paid, it’s not like they were handed a bag of coins, because that’s not how Ron did business at this point. They do seem to have things like bars of metal that they can sort of pass around, and it might also be the case that we’re dealing with a lot of economy in kind, so it’s like, what is something of an equivalent value that you could be given as payment for something else? I tell you what, Dr. G, if those matrons were given back the value of their gold jewelry in grain, I would have screamed. What am I supposed to do with this? I can’t wear this out on a Saturday night. How am I supposed to turn this into a pair of nice earrings?

Dr Rad 17:42
Exactly,

Dr G 17:43
I mean, you can, but it is more laborious because you have to take the grain around to a jeweler and be like, I will pay you five bags of grain for a pair of earrings, can you make it happen? The guy will be like, I can, but so this idea that there is limited resources and commodities and coinage is not quite a thing, but trading obviously is, and you can have, I think it’s difficult for us to imagine in our modern world, particularly because we deal now with imaginary currency in the form of like it’s a picture on a screen on your phone, you’re like, I have, I have money. It’s like, do you, though? Yeah, there’s numbers on a

Dr Rad 18:25
screen,

Dr Rad 18:25
definitely. Dan,

Dr G 18:26
so it’s become so abstracted for us in the modern world that I think we can anticipate that the idea of value exchange is one of these ideas that underpins how Roman culture operates. When they say they’re paying the soldiers, that’s not necessarily also handing them a bag coins, it again, it might be something like bags of grain or an allotment of some sort of other valuable material, and we’ve definitely had guests on the podcast in the past talking about things like fabrics,

Dr Rad 18:55
which

Dr G 18:56
take a reasonable amount of time and effort to manufacture, because there’s a lot of steps in that process. The final product is valuable, it holds value from all of the processes that have been done upon it. So, if you give somebody a bolt of fabric, that is actually quite valuable. So, those sorts of things are definitely things that we can keep in mind when we’re like, who’s getting paid, and just keeping in the back of our minds that how people get paid is actually maybe a more thorny problem that we don’t have all the answers to right now, in comparison, if we’re thinking about meanwhile in Sicily, they do have coinage already, we’ve got plenty of examples of their coins,

Dr Rad 19:37
the Romans really feel very late to coinage, and it’s weird.

Dr G 19:42
It is weird. It is one of these small, odd details about ancient Rome, where everybody around them already has currency.

Dr Rad 19:50
Yeah,

Dr G 19:50
and they don’t.

Dr Rad 19:52
So bizarre. Really cool currency with like owls on them.

Dr G 19:56
Yeah, like Sicily’s got a whole bunch of ones with like cool octopus. On them and stuff, and it’s like, like they’re way ahead of the Roman game. Romans are kind of like, would you like this egg I found?

Dr Rad 20:10
How about this fabric that I got one of my slaves to dance around in urine on? It’s great,

Dr G 20:16
exactly. So we don’t even tend to get into the sort of chunks of metal kind of stuff until a little bit later from where we are now, so it’s really interesting to think about, because they clearly have a functioning economy, and there’s clearly movement of value between people, and we just don’t quite know what that looks like.

Dr Rad 20:36
Yeah, animals, they would be another thing, wouldn’t they?

Dr G 20:39
I’d love your goat. Thank you for offering.

Dr Rad 20:42
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, now interesting detail here. Dr. G, Livvy now tells me that in the midst of all the conflict that’s been going on for quite some time, so we’re talking about, I think, about the past, you know, sort of 10 years, basically, of Roman warfare, there have been various people who, rather than stand by their original city, decided that they were going to switch sides to Rome. Kept that quiet up until this moment, Livy. So, we’re talking about people from Veii, people from Campana, people from Valerii. They have at some point decided that they’re just going to take up with the Romans at the right moment, and they are now made citizens and given some land.

Dr G 21:28
What

Dr Rad 21:29
I know,

Dr G 21:30
Diodorus is letting me down. There’s no detail at all about this year.

Dr Rad 21:34
Well, I find that really bizarre, in the sense that there’s so much dispute in Roman society, allegedly, about who has land, I’m like, you just gonna give this Johnny Come Lately from Veii some land because he happened to switch sides, and what it strokes your ego. What about the people that actually live here and don’t have land? What about them? Weird. All right, so I think

Dr Rad 22:00
this

Dr G 22:00
might be a retro fit by Livy, yeah, to try and explain some things that have been going on, because obviously Vae has been conquered quite recently. How many people would be switching sides is, I feel like a moot point. That place was done over, and it’s like it might just be some of the people in the northern regions of the countryside, just outside of Rome, and just south of a who were like sure, yeah, exactly,

Dr Rad 22:24
and like, what? He doesn’t give me any details, obviously. Like, when did they switch sides? How did they indicate they were switching sides? Some of these places were under siege. What do they do? Did they sneak out and join you? What happened?

Dr G 22:34
No, they made little badges that said I’m for Rome.

Dr Rad 22:39
Don’t kill me, I like you guys.

Dr G 22:41
Yeah, friend, not foe.

Dr Rad 22:46
Anyway, so very weird, but it’s interesting that we’ve got that little detail, and apparently they just get citizenship, which will become a much thornier issue later in Rome’s history about who gets citizenship and who doesn’t. Apparently, right now, though, it’s very easy. Just wave a magic wand and poof, you’re a Roman.

Dr G 23:05
Oh, Livy.

Dr Rad 23:07
Yeah,

Dr G 23:07
I mean, all of this struggle of the orders business, and now just people walking up, being like, what about it? And Rome’s like, yes,

Dr Rad 23:15
the answer is, you can stay. Yeah, now we apparently also have a lingering issue in that, as we know, during the Gallic sack, when there was that scattering that happened after Battle Allia, we had a bunch of people from Rome who decided that they were going to shack up in vain and just lay low until it all blew over. Smart move.

Dr G 23:40
Yes.

Dr Rad 23:40
Now, as it turns out, some of them decided I might just stay here. I’ve been here for a while, apparently. The siege of Rome by the Gauls lasted for many, many months, so I guess they got comfortable. Some of them might have been part of the group that thought it would be good idea to move to Veii before the Gallic sack. Who knows, but they never came back, so they’re still living there, and the people in Rome are not happy about that. As you know, Dr. G, we had a very lengthy speech from Camillus not that long ago about why you can’t live in Veii if you’re a Roman.

Dr G 24:18
Ah, yes, it’s problematic, at least from his perspective, I mean, I don’t really buy his rhetorical points about this, and it’s like, seems like a reasonable thing to do. Why not expand your territory? You’re happy to set up colonies elsewhere, Sutrium is one of them. Why wouldn’t you send some people to they?

Dr Rad 24:38
Because it’s sacrilegious, Dr. G, but there’s now an official senatorial decree saying get your asses back here now.

Dr G 24:49
I see

Dr Rad 24:52
they basically, they’re basically saying, you know, you guys are quitters, you’re giving up on Rome, you’re lazy, because, of course, Rome is going through. This rebuilding process, after all the destruction and whatnot, so perhaps those people are kind of hanging out in Vay because they don’t want to have to rebuild their house.

Dr G 25:10
Well, also I think this is one way that you can increase your property standing. I would be very inclined to become a squatter in Veii, and be like, well, I’m the king of the castle over here now, so why would I come back to you guys exactly? Surely we could be friends, and I can only imagine that from a patrician perspective, understanding that they is now conquered territory that now needs to be divided up in a way that suits the elite, not whoever is currently sitting in an old house in Veii, being like, look, I’ve done it up nice. I’ve been here for a few months, and it’s looking really good.

Dr Rad 25:44
I went to Ikea. It’s all furnished. Why would I come back now? They are 100% unhappy about receiving this order from the Senate. They drag their feet, they complain a lot, they’re bitching and moaning, and it kind of seems like they’re just going to pretend the senatorial degree got lost in the mail. I never saw that messenger word the Senate try and make sure that they have no excuses, because they set a firm date, a very teacherly move, where they’re not leaving it up to interpretation of you had to come back from they, and then just leaving up to them when they come back, they give them a firm date, and they say that anyone who refuses to return will be executed.

Dr G 26:31
Wow,

Dr Rad 26:32
yeah, they’re taking this very seriously, and so they come back under threat of death. That’s how much they love Rome.

Dr G 26:41
Okay, well, I suppose being Romans themselves, they’d be like, “Look, I really don’t want the military might of Camillus turning up on my doorstep, because I’ll immediately have to fall down.

Dr Rad 26:50
Exactly, exactly, it’s no point resisting. So, Livy sees this very much as a time period, therefore, where Rome is expanding, it’s getting more citizens, getting bigger, there are new buildings going up all the time, going up everywhere. The state is, as we know, apparently very involved in the construction. It even kind of seems like we’ve got the aediles functioning in a way that we would understand from, like, later in the Republic, like, you know, they’re helping with these building works, which we know is something that an aedile later on would be involved in.

Dr Rad 27:29
Is this

Dr Rad 27:30
true? Is this something that just makes sense in Livvy’s time, and therefore he’s kind of mentioning it. Who knows? But the Roman citizens are very driven, because they obviously just want the city to be complete and finished, so that they can actually, you know, live again as a result. Livy tells me they are so intent on finishing that the entire city, in its brand new expanded version, is finished within a year, completely rebuilt. Dr. G, not a stone left to be put in place.

Dr G 28:04
Wow, that is incredible. All right, okay.

Dr Rad 28:07
That’s how analytic history works.

Dr G 28:09
Of the things that I have questions about, and I think you’ve already flagged the aediles. I think that’s a good flag. Yeah, we’re not very sure about a dolls right now, although hopefully we’ll start seeing them soon, but because we don’t have the Fasti Capitolini for this period, we’ve got no names to go with, and if there are magistrates in that position, there’s no, there doesn’t seem to be any way to back that up, and if Livy doesn’t mention them by name, it’s like they’re not real, and he doesn’t seem to, the fact that the building program only takes a year. I think this tells us how small Rome is, more than anything else.

Dr Rad 28:45
Well, and also, as we’ve highlighted many, many times, potentially how limited the damage done by the Gauls was, that mostly they stole their transistor radios and televisions, and then got out of there

Dr G 29:01
anything that they could carry,

Dr Rad 29:03
exactly, exactly,

Dr G 29:04
yes, even the sacred hut on the Palatine survived, so guys, just a wooden hut, precisely.

Dr Rad 29:10
Now the capital also has some renovations done, which is mentioned because Livy thinks that the work done on the substructure here was so impressive that even in his own time he’s still blown away by it, and that’s because it is put together with using hewn stone. Now I am not a Mason, Dr. G, so I had to check out what that actually meant. That basically means that the stones were specifically shaped and smooth, so that they could, you know, build a particular thing, so a lot of effort is what I’m reading into that.

Dr G 29:47
I think that’s correct. Yes, effort, time, and effort, and also stone masonry.

Dr Rad 29:53
Yeah, I mean that sounds hard. I don’t underestimate the work of masons here, but it’s more that I was like hewn stone, I. Have no idea what that means, anyway. It’s still around for Livy to marvel at many, many decades, centuries later. So, well done, Rome. It’s at this point that he mentions the elections taking place, so towards the end of the year, and this is where we get all the people that you mentioned. Now, they decide once they’re in place that they are going to lead an army against the aequians, not because the Aequians had somehow managed to start yet another war with Rome, they had definitely been beaten by Camillus, I mean, of course, as if anything else were possible, but it is purely a war of spite and vengeance, Dr. G, the Romans intend to completely devastate their territory, so that they can never ever start another war again until 387 BCE,

Dr G 30:52
that is next year. Wait a minute. Okay, so whatever the Aquians have done sounds like Rome’s pretty unhappy about that. So, how does that campaign go for them?

Dr Rad 31:05
Well, Dr. G, Livy, alas, gives me very little information about what goes on with the Aequians. I’m imagining it’s just a bit of, you know, fear and terror on the Romans’ part. What he does tell me is that there is another force that is sent to deal with the Etruscans, who also were a problem for the Romans and Camillus in the previous year, so they invade Tarquinii, and they’re going to focus their attention on two towns, Cortuosa and Contenebra, I believe. Now, I don’t mean to be rude, but as some more perhaps minor locations, shall we say, we don’t really know where these are in a modern sense. So, I can’t tell you much about where they are in a modern sense. I don’t know the answer to that. It’s possible that the last one I said, Contenebra, might be modern day San Giovenale, but really, really not sure.

Dr G 32:05
Big question marks,

Dr Rad 32:06
yeah, as usual with this point in time, really, really not sure. But Cortuosa is very easily captured. I mean, as you might expect from the fact that the Romans have just decided to do this out of spite, they had no idea that they were at war with Rome, and so they were completely taken by surprise. The Romans sacked their city and set it on fire. Yay!

Dr G 32:29
Thanks, Rome. Wake up one morning, you’re like, oh, this is not gonna go well. We were not prepared for this. I’m still in my pajamas,

Dr Rad 32:38
I’ve got the cucumbers on my eyes still. My coffee is over there. What is happening? Conten Contenebra Contenebra, it’s a little different. They do actually manage to resist for a few days, but the Romans are fired by a sense of injustice that few people understand in this world, and therefore they are not going to be put down by the resistance of this paltry little town. They overwhelm them to the point where they have no choice but to surrender.

Dr G 33:12
Okay, now the bad news about that is that does this involve more prisoners of war?

Dr Rad 33:18
Yes, probably there is booty talked about as usual, but as said earlier in this episode, it’s a little unclear exactly what that booty entails. The interesting detail I think about Contenebra and the conquest of this particular place is that the Romans take a particular strategy with this, which reminds me a little bit of one of Camillus tactics when he was trying to break the siege at Veii, where they seem to divide the forces up into even groups, and they take turns waging war against the town in like six hour shifts.

Dr G 33:59
Right. Okay.

Dr Rad 34:01
Now I think Camillus did that more with the construction of the, like, the secret tunnel that he used to get into Veii, but the same principle kind of applies, and the town is too small to do something similar to what the Romans are doing, and therefore they’re using the same men to just stand against the Romans, and therefore their men tire out before the Romans, because the Romans are doing it in shifts, and therefore getting a break, getting a rest, and this is why they are forced to surrender. Just thought that was interesting, because we don’t always get a lot of details about the tactics that the Romans are using at this moment in time. It’s just, oh, they set it on fire, and you know, steal all their stuff,

Dr G 34:42
yeah, and the idea that not everybody is involved all at once means that you can have this continuous onslaught, which would be very hard for anyone to resist, particularly if you weren’t expecting an attack, and you sort of see them in the distance, and you’re like, ah, oh. And you have to be on all the time, and they’re just sort of taking their time about

Dr Rad 35:04
it. Yes. Now, the last detail I have about 388 is about the booty, Dr. G, but not the specifics of what the booty entails, although I definitely think it probably does involve people. They are valuable, particularly at this moment in time when I don’t think Rome is exactly swimming in slaves, and they, they like slaves. The military tribunes had decided that the booty should go to the state, but they were little slow about telling everybody else that decision that they had made. So, in the meantime, all the soldiers who were with them had just helped themselves and divided it up amongst them, and the military tribunes were like, “Oh, oh, I was going to, you know, what? You just keep it, that’s fine. They realize that it’s going to be way too dangerous to try and take back whatever it is the soldiers have split up amongst themselves, because they’re obviously very happy with their new acquisitions. They’re like, “Yeah, you know what? You look great in those stolen clothes. Yes, you absolutely should wear that next week to the meeting. Keep it, it looks fab.

Dr G 36:08
Yeah, we don’t want to anger those guys, not after they’ve fought in six hour shifts. They’re like, I deserve this,

Dr Rad 36:15
and that is where 388 ends up for me, Dr. G. Basically, a lot of other, you know, rebuilding news, and another Roman victory, but with a bit of a sad tinge

Dr G 36:27
to it. Okay, well, I think piecing together a couple of things, the fact that you, that Livy seems to think that the rebuilding process in Rome takes so little time, but we also have this narrative of enslaved people coming into the city, being sold, suggesting this sort of trading.

Dr Rad 36:48
I see where you go.

Dr G 36:53
I see these things maybe weaving together. I mean, like, how did they rebuild so quickly? Well, conveniently they weren’t paying the labor, potentially everybody’s been handed their public tiles,

Dr Rad 37:05
yeah,

Dr G 37:05
and they’ve immediately passed them on to their newly acquired enslaved person, be like, “You build it for me.

Dr Rad 37:12
Yeah, good point, good point.

Dr G 37:15
So, in terms of what’s going on with Diodorus Siculus, I really have so little to give you. He gives us the names of most of the military tribunes, and he does get most of them right, which is quite telling, because sometimes that doesn’t work out for him. But he places this series of events for whatever events they are, because he doesn’t talk about Rome after he lists the tributes, is that the archon in Athens is a guy called Pythias, and his archonship dates to 380 to 379 which means we’ve lost almost 10 years in terms of the chronology, potentially at this point in time, but to take us through some of these names, so I mentioned this guy, Lucius Aquilius Corvus. We finally, after a long period of time, have what appears to be a plebeian in the military tribune with consular power role, which is hugely significant,

Dr Rad 38:22
and no mention, no mention of it in Livy, just slides right by,

Dr G 38:27
slides right by, but maybe he shouldn’t. Military tribunes with consular power nominally were created by the patricians in order to facilitate keeping the plebeians on side, who wanted to hold some sort of magisterial position, but they didn’t want to give them the consulship, so they’ve created this lesser position, nominally so that plebeians could hold it, and then we’ve rarely seen plebeians in the role,

Dr Rad 38:52
and as we’ve highlighted, that’s probably because that’s not at all why this position was created,

Dr G 38:58
doesn’t, yes, the more logistical, pragmatic reason would be because you’ve got wars on a number of fronts, and you want to be able to have people who have legitimate imperium to be able to lead forces against multiple enemies at the same time,

Dr Rad 39:12
and we also question when the consulship per se really becomes part of this conversation. Are we talking about praetors before then? It seems much more warlordy in the ancient Roman world in the four hundreds when this position was apparently created. It’s just a lot of stuff where it’s probably far more chaotic and almost feudal than the Romans would like us to believe.

Dr G 39:38
Definitely, definitely. And then we get this guy who just sort of pops up as seemingly out of nowhere,

Dr Rad 39:45
yeah,

Dr G 39:45
and he comes with this plebeian name, Aquilius is plebeian as far as we know, it also is sometimes considered patrician, but also the other note about this. Yes, which the writers of the Brill New Pauly talk about, is that it might not be historical either. So, in terms of hazy territory, this is where we are. But we do have some stories about previous Aquilii. So, there are the Aquilii brothers from the end of the sixth century BCE, and I don’t know if we mentioned them, I can’t remember. It was so long ago since we talked about that, would have been

Dr Rad 40:08
10 years ago.

Dr G 40:10
Yeah, of all the details that I may or may not have held on to, I have no idea whether we’ve mentioned these guys before.

Dr Rad 40:32
Yeah,

Dr G 40:32
but they apparently conspired against the newly established Republic.

Dr Rad 40:38
Oh, so this would have been part of the whole Brutus’ sons story,

Dr G 40:44
yeah, and they were executed. Those guys were

Dr Rad 40:47
done. Okay, then

Dr G 40:48
we have a guy called Gaius Aquilius Tuscus aftermark consul in 487 BCE, and he fights against the Hernucii, who at this point in Rome’s history have long been allies of Rome, yeah, but we’re not in that period, and received am ovatio, so that sounds like more of a patrician than a plebeian,

Dr Rad 41:11
yeah,

Dr G 41:12
holding the consulship, that sort of thing, and then we’ve got this guy Corvus, and that’s that’s it,

Dr Rad 41:20
and he does not seemingly accomplish anything individually.

Dr G 41:27
Maybe nothing is noted.

Dr Rad 41:29
No, that’s what I mean. Yeah, nothing is specifically.. I mean, to be fair, nothing that specific is noted about any of these guys for 388 in terms of what they actually managed to accomplish. There is some trouble brewing on the horizon for the following year, but I won’t get too much into that.

Dr G 41:51
And so the other thing is that I was just looking at some of the patrician names, just to sort of give myself something to hold on to for this year, and I was like, Who are these people? So Titus Quintius Cincinnatus Capitolinus. So the Quintius folk, they are a family of quite some distinction, and with a whole bunch of names involved, including Cincinnatus, Capitolinus, and later on Crispini and Flaminii, which gives you a sense that they might be end up moving into more religious positions over time as well.

Dr Rad 42:31
Yeah,

Dr G 42:31
but this is a family with a long history and connection with Rome that goes back to the kings.

Dr Rad 42:37
Yeah, well, I mean we had so much to talk about with Cincinnatus in his escapades, he was like the Proto Camillus,

Dr Rad 42:44
yeah, the

Dr G 42:45
original and shirt off man,

Dr Rad 42:48
exactly,

Dr G 42:48
par excellence, yeah, and this family seems to have been one of the families that came to Rome under the leadership of Tullus Hostilius,

Dr Rad 43:00
wow, okay, so that’s the third king of Rome for people keeping score at home,

Dr G 43:06
keeping track, and so this is a family from Alba originally, and he’s these are this is not the only family that crops up in this year that also has that connection, because the civili also are thought to have migrated to Rome in that same period from that same region, so it wouldn’t surprise me that there were a lot of interconnections between those two family groups based on that history alone.

Dr Rad 43:35
Well, and this is something that we used to talk about, I think, a bit more when we had consuls, allegedly.

Dr Rad 43:42
Mm. which

Dr Rad 43:43
is that you do see people from similar families often sort of running together, you know. We definitely see these associations between particular gens, where they, they are, they do have an association with each other, and it does seem like there is intermarriage, perhaps, going on. They do have these historic connections. We know the tradition is very important for the Romans, so we know there are allies and rivalries between these rival families, even though there aren’t that many of these clans.

Dr G 44:21
Yeah, even in this early period, and so because Romans are so interested in families and family history, the other group that’s worth mentioning here is the Julii, because again they are one of these families that seems to move into Rome under Tullus Hostilius from Alba, and so we’ve got these three big gens in this moment in time, and they’re all taking up spots in the military tribunate with Consular Power for this year, so it seems like we’re leaning into old families for the most part, except for our maybe our stray plebeian,

Dr Rad 44:58
so random, yeah. Yeah,

Dr G 45:01
I mean, I hope he’s a plebeian, but it’s hard to know. We have so little to go on, but certainly the name stands out for being a little bit different, and one that we’re not used to seeing.

Dr Rad 45:12
I was gonna say, I don’t recognize it. Yeah, not like the others.

Dr G 45:16
Yeah, and so all of a sudden I was like, oh, does this bear more investigation, perhaps, but that is about all that I have for this year, because I really, I don’t have a narrative to hang my hat on, and so that’s where I’m at, 388 BCE.

Dr Rad 45:31
That is great, Dr. G. I think that means it’s time for the partial pick. All right, Dr. G, please tell me, in case I have somehow forgotten, how does the partial pick work?

Dr G 45:48
Ah, the partial pick, so Rome is capable of winning 50 golden eagles, but only if they manage to score 10 golden eagles in five categories.

Dr Rad 46:00
All right, Dr. G, what is our first category?

Dr G 46:04
Military clout.

Dr Rad 46:06
Well, not a lot of detail, but it goes well for the Romans in this year. Not perhaps the most impressive conquest to capture a couple of cities that weren’t expecting you in the slightest, but nonetheless, it all goes well. Not a lot of death, it would seem, on the Roman side.

Dr G 46:27
Yeah, look, I don’t think the Romans would be fussy about was it just or unjust at this point in time. They decided it was just, so they

Dr Rad 46:36
definitely think they’ve got a cause. This is really just them saying, “Oh yeah, you want to start a war for no apparent reason. Guess what, you could play that game.

Dr G 46:45
You started it, but we’re gonna finish it

Dr Rad 46:48
exactly. So, what do we say? Like a, like a six, a five? I don’t know. I don’t

Dr G 46:54
know, maybe a five. It’s not like a glorious.. it doesn’t.. I think from our perspective it doesn’t feel just, but from their perspective it seems reasonable enough, and they seem

Dr Rad 47:03
it does, but there’s not a great sense of triumph about it. I guess it’s not like they’re adding heaps of territory or something like that.

Dr G 47:11
That’s true.

Dr Rad 47:12
Yeah. Okay. Five. It is

Dr G 47:15
all right. Then we move on to diplomacy

Dr Rad 47:17
again. When there is warfare, there tends to be little diplomacy. I don’t think so.

Dr G 47:26
Yeah, no mention of any ambassador at any point in time in this year, it’s a zero.

Dr Rad 47:30
Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 47:32
All right, expansion.

Dr Rad 47:33
No, there’s no mention that these towns that they attack added to their territory, per se. I mean, they capture them, but I think that just means they get to take all this stuff and set the rest on fire.

Dr G 47:49
Wow. Okay. Zero.

Dr Rad 47:51
Yeah.

Dr G 47:52
We’re tous

Dr Rad 47:54
again. In spite of the fact that there is military success, no one is really singled out for doing anything exceptionally daring or heroic.

Dr G 48:04
Yes, exactly. So, even though we’ve got all of these names, it’s not like they were like, you know, Lucius really stood out on the battlefield today because he did a thing, then everyone was like, “Wow,

Dr Rad 48:16
I don’t even hear who decided on the whole six hour shift tactic.

Dr G 48:20
Wow. Okay, so another zero. So far, so good. Rome, can you climb from the depths with the final category, the citizen score?

Dr Rad 48:31
Well, I think it’s actually quite a good time to be a citizen, because we’ve got a bunch of new citizens. So well done, them. They got land magic, the Romans don’t give that away easily. They’ve apparently managed to rebuild their city entirely and add some fancy things like hewn stone substructures.

Dr G 48:54
Very impressive. Okay, but what about those Romans that were living in Veii and were demanded to return?

Dr Rad 49:01
Well, look, they might be a bit grumpy, but let’s face it, they’re coming back to their home, and perhaps they managed to drag their feet long enough that everyone else did the rebuilding for them, and their tactic worked. They were threatened with death. Yeah, but you know what? I feel like the Romans are not shocked by that. They’re like, yeah, yeah, all right. I’ll be there on the 15th, or you’ll cut my head off, yeah.

Dr G 49:27
Oh

Dr Rad 49:29
my god, god senators, so embarrassing.

Dr G 49:34
Yeah, I mean, that’s not good though. I can’t.. we’ve got to take a few points off whatever the score is for that.

Dr Rad 49:39
Oh, yeah, look, it might not be a 10 out of 10, but I guess it’s just.. I don’t know, I guess I’m just.. I’m not shocked by the whole ‘you can’t live in Veii’ narrative, like for the 100th time. How many times do we have to say this? You can’t live in vain demonstrably untrue. Was doing it for ages until you threatened me with death. I don’t know. No, no, Roman lives in Bay. That’s our next T-shirt. No Romans live in Bay.

Dr G 50:12
On the other hand, and obviously we’re in murky territory, but the matrons get their money back.

Dr Rad 50:16
That’s what I mean. The matrons are getting their money back. There are gold bowls with Camillus name sitting around the city’s rebuilt in record time, and in an improved way. There’s just so much, and on top of that, okay, bad for the people that are captured, but as usual, we have to take it from the Roman point of view here, because that’s what this podcast is about. From their perspective, there is wealth coming in from all these military victories, even though it might be informed we find highly morally repugnant these days.

Dr G 50:50
All right. Well, yes. So I’d say we’re dealing with maybe a seven,

Dr Rad 50:55
an eight. Could you go an eight? Well, come on, like I mean, really, for the citizens, they often have a terrible time.

Dr G 51:04
That is true. Yeah, only some of them were threatened with death,

Dr Rad 51:09
and you know what? It was the lazy ones, the ones that hadn’t bothered to come back to Rome and help with the rebuilding effort.

Dr G 51:16
Did you even see what I did with that apartment in Veii? I don’t see if you’d seen it, you wouldn’t say I was lazy.

Dr Rad 51:22
Okay, come on. Eight

Dr G 51:27
fine. Yes, I accept.

Dr Rad 51:29
Thank you. All right. That means, Dr. G, that the Romans end up with a total of 13 golden eagles, surprisingly low. The funny thing is, I think often these sorts of years where like stuff is happening, but it’s not these pivotal moments. It’s often in those important moments, even when they’re bad for Rome overall, like the Gaelic sack, because they are such dramatic moments and such important moments in Rome’s history. You do get so many stories of how people reacted and behaved, that often they get higher scores, oddly, because of things like virtus and stuff like that. In peaceful times, our scoring system does not fare well.

Dr Rad 52:14
Rome

Dr G 52:14
is not designed for peace,

Dr Rad 52:15
that’s what I mean, that’s the problem. Yeah, Rome is not designed for peace, so they score low, and that’s the thing, I think, by their, we’re judging them by their own standards, right? So, by their own standards, this is a bit of a

Dr G 52:27
yeah, we haven’t done the things, you know, we could have been better on the battlefield, we were there, could have been waiters, there wasn’t. Oh, well,

Dr Rad 52:35
all right, Dr. G, well, that wraps up 388 for us, and I’m very excited to get into what happens next. I have to tell you, there might be a return to the conflict of the orders. All

Dr G 52:47
right. Well, I’ll look forward to that.

Dr Rad 52:57
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial historians, you can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The partial historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious, and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collectivemem.com You can support us by buying us a coffee on Kofi, but you can also support our show and help us to produce more amazing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon, in return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad-free content. Today, we would like to say Salve to our newest Patreon, Captain Ducky. Welcome aboard, Captain. However, if you are trying to save up for some hewn stone. Please just tell someone about the show, or give us a five star review. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 174 – We Built This City on Big Hewn Stones appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We return to 389 BCE to see just how Rome recovered from the Gallic Sack.

Camillus is dictator in Rome and Ahala is his trusty master of the horse. It’s time for Rome to make things right in their immediate area. There are a bunch of neighbours to deal with, including the Etruscans, the Volscians, and the Aequians.

We’re in a hazy period where our sources appear out of sync with each other. Livy offers the most fulsome narrative that has survived for this period whereas sources like Diodorus Siculus and Dionysius of Halicarnassus are fragmentary or have their focus elsewhere.

By this time, Camillus’ reputation is so cemented in the region that his mere presence at the head of a military is enough to leave their enemies shaken if not stirred. The Volscians are certainly not happy when Camillus and crew turn up on their doorstep. When Camillus turns up at the city of Bolae of the Aequians, will they also fall at his feet?

Linguistic map of Central Italy with the major locations marked for convenience. For the source of this map, see Wikimedia Commons.

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.
Additional sound effects:
– Pixabay
– Sample Focus
– BBC Sound Effects

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

The post Episode 173 – Nobody Beats Camillus appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

As we emerge, bleary-eyed and slightly peckish from the Gallic Sack of Rome, we find ourselves in a new era – a new Republic, one might say! It is 389 BCE and Rome is in its rebuilding era.

Livy would like us to see 389 BCE as a turning point. He has more sources, better sources than ever before, just you wait! Historians are less confident than he is about how reliable his material is, but there is no doubt that this century is going to see Rome enter a new phase in its history. In spite of the many battles we covered so far on the pod, it is really in this century that Rome’s territorial control will start to expand in a meaningful way. This journey will lead to other exciting political, social and military developments along the way, and we might find Rome starting to look more recognisable by the end of the 300s BCE.

It depends on whether you believe Diodorus or Livy as to what unfolded in 389 BCE. The dating is still shaky, in spite of Livy’s grand promises. However, we certainly get a sense that Rome suffered a crushing blow at around this time, and their neighbours, including their allies, tried to take advantage of that. It would the logical move. Thank God Camillus is still around to make sure that Rome hangs in there!

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
Everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:57
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am Dr G

Dr Rad 1:04
And I am Dr Rad, and we are

Dr G 1:06
Currently in the very, very edges of time, the end the liminal space of 390 BCE

Dr Rad 1:16
Yes. Dr G, boy, has this been an epic year! Gauls marauding around Rome itself, the Romans almost starving to death. Camillus. Was he there? Was he not? Lots of debate there in our last episode on the Gallic sack of Rome, and we’ve been barreling our way through 390 BCE, my account was basically just a gigantic speech from Camillus where he was trying very, very hard to convince the Romans that they did not want to just pick up sticks and move to ve because it was just, quite frankly, easier than trying to rebuild The damage to Rome the Gauls had allegedly been responsible for, and at the end of all of that, he managed to convince them, and the Romans did indeed start rebuilding, which apparently all happened in a year. And that’s why Rome is the way that it is today, a higgledy, piggledy, confusing layout.

Dr G 2:20
Yes. I mean, there’s reasons to poke holes in most of those stories.

Dr Rad 2:25
Poke holes? We do that at the partial historians?

Dr G 2:32
Not usually, but I’m gonna take this rare occasion to suggest that we’ve got some issues here. First of all, if a city has been destroyed, as they claim, that Rome has on some level, then surely the real building process is a great time to lay down some order, some straight lines, some roads that intersect with each other, but no chaotic. Rebuilding commences, and everybody gets their own public tile to stick in their house. It’s like they prioritize the pottery aspect, but not the planning aspect,

Dr Rad 3:05
which seems very un roman, I have to say. I mean, the Romans of the popular imagination are quite orderly folk.

Dr G 3:12
This is true, and I think Rome is trying to now explain to itself why their main city, their personal stronghold, does not replicate the Roman camp system and the Roman colony system that develops later on. It’s like they only get into straight lines in the future, and they have to kind of backtrack on this.

Dr Rad 3:31
It’s like when someone really immaculate invites you to their home, and it’s like, disgusting, and they’re like, oh yes, sorry. It’s just been a really chaotic way.

Dr G 3:41
It’s been tough. I haven’t had a chance to clean up. And you’re like, what?

Dr Rad 3:45
But why? How? How does this happen? You’re so put together. How is this where you live?

Dr G 3:50
Like every time I see you out, you’re looking great, and it’s like, oh yeah, I just threw that on. But at home, I’m just like a little gremlin. So that is how the Romans seem to be treating the story of their origins, and how the topography of the city really looks in later periods of history. And so for to some extent, I think I’ve mostly done with 390 BCE, and I know that in the previous episode, we talked about a whole bunch of things, or I talked about a whole bunch of things that the Romans were supposed to have done, particularly Camillus in the latter part of this year, which you assure me he could not possibly have done, because that is all still to come in Livy,

Dr Rad 4:33
he was too busy giving speeches. Dr G he had some convincing to do. There was some serious rhetoric happening.

Dr G 4:39
It was a lot. This was reminiscent of the moment maybe 20 or 30 episodes ago where I was deep in the bowels of Dionysius of Halicarnassus, and every single person in the Senate gave an epic speech, and you just have to wade through it and listen. And I’ve got my chance now, because Camilla’s boy can he talk.

Dr Rad 4:55
I know, like you know, it’s actually making me quite nostalgic for our old

Dr Rad 4:59
episodes. Words, where it would just be basically a speechifying

Dr G 5:03
back and forth, having an argument. So before we move on from this year and the general chaos that may be some of the events that cover more years than just 390 there is some detail that I’d like to bring in, which is kind of like my side series from Diodorus Siculus, which is Meanwhile in Sicily.

Dr Rad 5:27
Yeah, yes. Dr G’s side hustle,

Dr Rad 5:28
My side branching out from Rome, I know, like, let’s check out what the Greek colonies are doing greater I know well, I feel like it’s going to become important later on to appreciate what’s happening here. But also we have this supposed connection between Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse, and the imputation that he might be involved with the Gaulish force as well. And some of our sources suggest that maybe he had paid the Gauls to like swing around further into Italy than they were planning to initially and to do something about Rome. Now, why he would care about that is anyone’s guess, because he himself is really bogged down in minucii, in the toe

Dr Rad 6:13
of Italy. We see one of my accounts, I can’t remember, which did suggest that he had hired the Gauls to serve as auxiliaries in his own little shenanigans, so in the in the conflicts that he was caught up in. And it was just that the Gauls happened to be passing by see Rome and say, Hey, that looks like a nice place to raid. And so it was kind of an accidental sacking

Dr G 6:41
well to rub salt into Rome’s wound, we weren’t even planning on stopping here. Yeah, this wasn’t our game at all. We were just passing through and you looked pretty so another account. And again, because there’s so many sources for this, I legitimately cannot remember which source told me this, but the idea was that after the Gauls left Rome, one of the accounts has them heading south rather than North, and they get all the way down into the Calabrian region, and they do have contact with Dionysius of Syracuse’s forces as well, before they decide to swing back and head north and leave Italy all together, apparently. So there’s a lot going on that suggests that this potential interconnection, it sounds a little bit like a conspiracy to me, where people are like, doing the red string everywhere, being like they’re all connected. And whether that’s the case or not, I’m not sure that we’re ever really going to be able to solve but it is certainly the case that in this moment of time, Diodorus Siculus tells us that the tyrant of Syracuse has taken a whole bunch of his forces across to the toe of Italy and has been engaging in a very long siege of rhegium. And Rhegium is you can see it from Sicily. It’s on the west coast of Italy, and he has managed to cut off all of the supplies into Rhegium. So this siege has been going on for quite some time. This whole process has led to substantial problems for the population of Rhegium, apparently, obviously, they’ve eaten through their food supplies. First of all, then they start to eat their animals, beasts of burden. They also then start boiling up the skins and the leathers in order to get nutrients out of them. Yeah. Yeah. And eventually they’re forced into a situation where they feel like there is legitimately nothing left for them to eat inside the walls of the city. So they go out of the city and they start eating the grass. Yes. So this is a horrifying siege situation, much more devastating it sounds than the sorts of descriptions we had of the Gallic siege of Rome, and potentially because it’s just been going on for months longer, some of the suggestions in our sources about the Gallic sack of Rome is that the siege went on for about six or seven months. The siege of Rhegium has been going on for almost double that amount of time, and it has led to some really tragic consequences. So there is no way for Dionysus of Syracuse’s forces to find out what is happening. They’re clearly besieging this city. They have been for a long time. You would notice people in a really weak physical condition leaving the city in order to eat the grass surrounding the city. There is no sense of compassion that comes from the Syracusan forces. When Dionysius learns that this is happening, he basically brings out his own cattle to eat all of the grass in front of the city walls.

Dr Rad 9:59
Oh. My God, and see this is why he’s called the tyrant of Syracuse, not the cuddly wuddly Teddy Bear of Syracuse.

Dr G 10:06
Exactly. This is not a nice guy, and it is so grim what he is up to here, but he ensures that all of the surrounding land of the city is stripped of anything that could be edible, and as a result, the people of regium have no choice but to surrender.

Dr Rad 10:28
Sad after going to all those lengths to try and hold out against him.

Dr G 10:33
Yes, they tried to hold out as long as they could. They weren’t able to do it. When the Syracusan forces enter into Rhegium, they find heaped up dead bodies in the streets. People have just been starving to death, and the people that he does capture are completely weakened, very emaciated. He takes 6000 captives, and he sends most of them back to Syracuse, and they’re obviously going to become enslaved, that is, if they survive the whole process of becoming re nutritioned. Because that is a real issue as well when you’ve really nutritioned, yeah, so if you go into a period of starvation, there is a point where your body cannot handle taking in nutrition.

Dr Rad 11:23
I know I was just, I was just enjoying your word play re nutrition.

Dr G 11:27
I mean, it’s pretty horrific. And I suppose the contemporary example that is worth mentioning is what is happening to Palestinians in Gaza and the challenges that are there, and we’re seeing a very similar situation in the ancient world, in terms of people who have been so starved that it’s going to be very difficult to bring them back to a good, healthy condition, even if you were to enslave them, which seems to be The intent so beyond that, which is the horrifying nature of siege warfare and the devastation that wreaks upon people. The general of the regians, a guy called Photon, is also captured.

Dr Rad 12:14
Ooh, I remember this guy.

Dr Rad 12:15
This guy, and Dionysius, first of all, takes Photon’s son and drowns him in the sea. Bloody hell yes. And Photon himself is then bound to the siege engines and sort of driven around by the Syracusan forces so he can look upon the devastation of the city treated pretty terribly. And Photon says to Dionysius, reputedly, according to Diodorus Siculus, that he had been more fortunate than his father in one day about the drowning of his son, that his son had received a greater sense of peace and closure by being drowned in the sea than what was happening to him, and Dionysius then leads him around the city, flogging him in front of everybody with a herald announcing the vengeance of the Syracusans, and particularly against Photon for having lead, led the resistance movement against the Syracusans. And the Syracusans have turned up from a different island. They come from Sicily. What are they even doing in Italy? So it seems really legitimate that the regians would be like, This is our place. You cannot have it. So Photon really pays the biggest price for that in terms of his treatment by the Syracusan forces and particularly by Dionysius. So he’s now his legacy in terms of the historical record, is that he is recognized as a hugely brave General has endured a lot of pain and suffering, and this is suggestive of his high courage and spirit, and this doesn’t leave a good reputation for Dionysius of Syracuse, obviously, but he is gaining a reputation that people are going to fear, for sure.

Dr Rad 14:15
Well, thanks for that peppy little episode to kick off.

Dr G 14:21
Just in case we thought the galaxy of Rome was was bad. It seems it’s a time of sieges in Italy in general, and some of them are going pretty terribly. Yeah, all of a sudden

Dr Rad 14:34
it seems like the Romans were more having a pleasant vacation when it came to the Gauls, rather than what they could have been enduring Exactly.

Dr G 14:41
They still had their jewelry. They still had their sacred geese that they hadn’t eaten yet.

Dr Rad 14:45
You know, hey, gold stashed away somehow.

Dr G 14:47
Exactly. So there is what seems to be. The larger issue at play is that Italy seems to be increasingly unstable. Places are not able necessarily, to defend themselves. Themselves against invading forces, and we’ve got two examples in 390 or thereabouts, of foreign invaders coming into mainland Italy and making a real dent in local populations, which gels with what we’ve been talking about probably for the last decade or so, where it seems like Italy’s not doing great. There’s been a lot of pestilence, there’s been poor harvests, and it seems like trade is not at its greatest extent either. And we’re now seeing what could be some of the opportunistic moments that emerge from that process, which is people being like, now’s my chance to get in on Italy, and definitely what we get from Dionysius of Syracuse is a very mean and uncompassionate approach to siege warfare. This is probably of the descriptions of sieges that we’ve encountered so far in broader Roman history up until this point, this one sounds like the worst to me in terms of the nature of the suffering of the people and how the generals are treated in the aftermath of their defeat. So that that concludes 390 BCE, from me.

Dr Rad 16:24
What a note to end on. Dr, G, thank you so much for that. That will haunt me in my dreams later tonight.

Dr G 16:30
You’re most welcome.

Dr Rad 16:32
But I think what you said is really interesting. If we look at that wider view of you know what’s been happening in the period that we’ve been talking about, probably for us, over the course of a couple of years. But you know, in terms of Roman history and the history of Italy and this region, you know talking about the last sort of 10-20, years, if we are seeing hardship brought about by things like, as you say, poor harvest and pestilence and that sort of thing, these are exactly the kinds of trends that people who are trying to understand what history can teach us about what our future holds are studying. The idea is, obviously that in times of hardship, it would often be easier if humans could pool resources and also pool ideas, band together and work as a community in order to solve these problems and deal with hardships, you know, spread resources out and that sort of thing. But realistically, if we look at what humans have done in the past, generally, it’s actually kind of easier. It’s the easy road to just take, to just steal what you need and what resources you feel like you want, rather than to work towards a solution. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing with the impact of climate change. So often humans are taking that easy but incredibly slippery route, you know, and also giving money towards band aiding the damage, rather than investing in the solutions to prevent those kinds of things from happening in the first place, and and that’s the real concern, as climate change starts have more and more of an impact on resource shortage, particularly things like food and water, which is so crucial. Are we going to see more war as people are fighting for access to those resources because it’s easier to take than to work towards a solution, or are we going to take the other path, which probably is harder because it requires patience and dedication and and maybe a bit of self denial and those sorts of things, and, you know, hardship in the in the short moment, but in the long term, hopefully it would lead to a better solution. Now the good news is, obviously that the history of the future isn’t written. We can decide what path it is we want to take. But I do find it interesting to sort of look at these examples from ancient history, because I feel like they actually do have some bearing on our present moment, even though, for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in wealthy parts of the world. We might not be feeling it right now. It is something that I think in our in our lifetimes, we’ll probably have to

Dr G 19:08
start thinking about, yeah, definitely. And I think one of the great benefits of history as you know, is this, it gives us a whole bunch of exemplar where be like if this was the situation, and these are the ways that it played out. This is potentially a way that we could anticipate that this would play out as well. It seems a reasonable expectation that if we don’t make systems change, that people will be forced into a situation of reactionary change, where warfare and theft the predominant drivers in order to continue survival, rather than a slow implementation of systems change which will allow a more equitable distribution of resources for everybody. And so I think there is a sense in which being a historian is also tied very much into. To your political activism in the sense that you can see where these things have gone in the past, you have a potential to be an influence on what the future is like, knowing what those consequences look like if they play out in a certain way rather than another. And then you can think about how you’re going to push your personal energy and think about how that looks to create that systems change that you’re really interested in for that equality later down the track. So dear listeners, whip out your political activism. Stay strong.

Dr Rad 20:36
Stay strong. I’ve never been political in my life.

Dr G 20:43
We are an apolitical podcast.

Dr Rad 20:45
Absolutely never had an opinion. You know, objective, objective history. That’s what we’re all about here.

Dr G 20:51
It’s all about the facts, and only the facts.

Dr Rad 20:54
That’s why we’re called the objective historians. Exactly, exactly. All right? Dr, G, well, it gives me great pleasure to announce that I think that this means that we might be moving into 389, BCE, no, it can’t be possible. Did this day come? Were my prayers answered?

Dr G 21:15
I refuse to believe there must be so many more things that happened in that year. In fact, all of Roman history happens in 390 BCE, and I refuse to leave that year until we’ve done it all.

Dr Rad 21:26
All right, let’s do it. Dr, G, let’s go into the future. You.

Dr Rad 21:53
All right. Dr, G, it feels like way too long since I have asked you this question. But can you tell me who were the magistrates for 389 BCE?

Dr G 22:02
Oh, I’m so glad you’ve asked. I have a pretty long laundry list of people to get through. It is long. Yeah, it is so long. All right, we have military tribunes with consular power. First of all. And excuse me, dear listeners, it’s been so long since I’ve had to pronounce so much Latin one after the other that this might go terribly, terribly wrong.

Dr Rad 22:24
Doing our transcriptions, I must admit, has been a lot easier in some ways, for the Gallic sack of Rome, because without the magistrates, there’s been far fewer corrections from the generative AI Exactly.

Dr G 22:36
Well, first off the ranks is Lucius Valerius, son of Lucius, grandson of Lucius Publicola. He is a patrician. No surprises there the great Valerii Publicii.

Dr Rad 22:51
Yes. This is

Dr G 22:53
a very old name. This is a very old name at this point. Now, he was also a military tribune with consular power in 394, and he’s also going to hold the same role in the future. But I won’t spoil that for you by telling you those years yet.

Dr Rad 23:06
Please don’t

Dr G 23:08
We also have Lucius Verginius Tricostus. Now we think he might have been previously military tribune in 402, but frankly, in my mind, that was so long ago that I can’t recall well,

Dr Rad 23:21
Even Broughton has a question mark there. So I think you’re entitled to your lack of certainty.

Dr G 23:26
I have questions. Publius Cornelius, and we think he has a third name, but we don’t know what it is.

Dr Rad 23:35
Well, I mean, if he’s a patrician, he probably does.

Dr G 23:37
He probably does, but we’re not sure about it. Aulius Manlius Capitolinius, and we’ve seen some Manlii before, so I think none of these names are going to be surprising, but it is confusing because they all sound kind of the same. Yeah. Lucius Aemilius Mamercinus, Lucius Postumius Albinus Regillensis. So that gives us what 123456, military tribunes with consular power, which is kind of like the upper limit of what we’ve seen in terms of this cohort. Nevertheless, our trusty friend Broughton also has another couple of possibilities on this list a guy called Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.

Dr Rad 24:25
I remember that horrible Latin name – Mugillanus.

Dr G 24:32
And also big question marks are Marcus Furius, which sounds like maybe it would be Camillus, but maybe we’re not really sure anyway. Suffice it to say that Camillus seems to still be the dictator, or is reinstated as the dictator of Rome. So Marcus Furius Camillus is back in the role as dictator, but he does have a new master of the horse, which suggest that he’s come out of the role and then gone back into the role because he’s appointed a new guy to be his second in charge.

Dr Rad 25:08
He’s just your side kick Robin to his Batman, indeed.

Dr G 25:12
Indeed, And the Robin to his Batman is a guy called Gaius Servilius Ahala.

Dr Rad 25:19
We know this name. They so often crop up as master of the horse. I mean, one might be suspicious of what the historians are doing.

Dr G 25:27
I am concerned about the list of names that we have, yeah, but he is a new guy. Last year’s master of the horse was a guy called Lucius Valerius, either Publicola or Potitus. I’m not really entirely sure there. So there’s some confusion, but this guy has a sufficiently different name that we’re pretty sure it must be a different guy, right? We also have some really large question marks about censors. It’s been maybe a hot minute since Rome has decided to count its population.

Dr Rad 25:59
Well, they were, they were spread out everywhere. Dr, G, and then they weren’t there. They were.

Dr G 26:04
Some of them were hanging out in Veii. Some of them wanted to leave for they. Some of them were in the countryside, hiding from the Gauls in a tree.

Dr Rad 26:11
Yeah, don’t get any way. This is my tree house, mine.

Dr G 26:14
I’m pretending to be a statue, like, so realistic. And I say, like the statues. And so we have some question marks, one, because we don’t know whether there are later things that happen a few years from now that mean that they needed to have senses in this year for those things to be true, or whether those things that happen in the future could have been done without the senses and they just got around it some other way. So there’s a high level of doubt, but we have potentially Marcus Furius and Lucius Papirius Mugillanus again, because he was question mark, one of the military tribunes with consular power, and this Marcus Furius is obviously the other question mark on military tribune with consular power. So these two guys might have been the censors, but we’re not entirely sure. And we also have some interreges,

Dr Rad 27:13
oh yes, which

Dr G 27:15
it’s like stepping back in time, because I think to myself, the interreges are kind of like this lingering role from the kingship period of Rome’s history and interreges is the guy who fills in when you don’t have the king, but he must have a slightly different role at this point, because it does not make any sense whatsoever to be like we just got the interim King

Dr Rad 27:37
hanging around, right? I think it’s just about the transfer of power, because they have been cropping up all throughout this Republican period. So I think it’s just about those times when Rome needs a placeholder. Every now and then you need a placeholder. Dr, G, yeah, and they just

Dr G 27:51
haven’t updated the name. Yeah, they’re never going to have kings, but they’re they don’t mind having interim guys. That’s right.

Dr Rad 27:58
We’ll never have kings again, except temporarily in this weird shift system that we’ve got going every now and then.

Dr G 28:04
So there may have been a moment where they’ve yet to hold elections, which would make sense. They’ve had a pretty devastating year. They might not have gotten organized in time, and the previous magistrates have exited a role, and they just need somebody to cover the reins of power while they get the next election organized. Something like that would make sense to have interreges for. And according to our list, we have Pubilius Cornelius Scipio and Marcus Furius Camillus. Well, who else this guy’s everywhere. There’s not a role this man doesn’t hold. And so these two, apparently, are sort of getting things organized for a transfer of power, which I don’t know, conveniently ends with Camillus being the dictator.

Dr Rad 28:50
I was gonna say, from Camillus to Camillus as interreges, and then to Camillus again as dictator. On the other side.

Dr G 28:55
This man has sticky fingers, and we also finally, oh, no, not finally. Correction, I’ve got more to go. There is a named tribune of the plebs. Yay, Power to the People. Hey, yes, up until now, I haven’t emphasized this, but up until now, every name has been a patrician name, and the tribune of the plebs is Gnaeus Marcius, so we’ll see how he goes in the role. And we also have the name of a prefect who just so happens to be the son of Camillus, yes, it seems. And this prefect is Lucius Furius Camillus, so we suspect that he wouldn’t be the first son, because the first son would definitely be called Marcus, if this family has held on to the Roman traditions of always naming the first son after the dad, so he might be the second kid.

Dr Rad 29:54
It’s definitely evidence of a conspiracy against the Romans to make things difficult for. Of the people that would study them. Yeah, we’ll have these really complicated names, and then we’ll force the first son to always have the same name as the father, just to really confuse them.

Dr G 30:12
Which Marcus are you talking about? And this is why I suspect greatly that the Romans mostly operated in their day to day life on nicknames, because otherwise you would just spend your whole time being like Lucius and 20 guys turn around. It’s not okay. Everyone would have to have a nickname for their day to day life, even if it doesn’t make it into the inscription, I think all right, so that is my really long list of our players for 389, BCE, oh, it just, it doesn’t even roll off the tongue properly.

Dr Rad 30:48
I think you did very well. Dr G, it was hard to go back to and then to have such a long list as your first time in a while. Oh, it’s tough.

Dr G 30:55
So what’s happening in this year? That’s my big question.

Dr Rad 30:59
Well. Dr G, this is the big question, isn’t it? Because Livy, in this moment, I think, wants to paint the transition from 390 to 389 as somewhat of a turning point, as you shall see, historians do question the nature of the turning point that he highlights. However, there is no denying that there are some notable changes that we start to see in terms of Roman history after the Gallic sack of Rome, whether it happened in exactly 390 or maybe a few years later, who knows. But around this time, we do start to see a shift. And for some historians, this is really kind of the true beginning of the Roman Republic as we understand it, because so many of our sources come from later in the Roman Republic. By that, I mean we start to see Rome truly embark upon a period of expansionism, where conquest, conquest, conquest is the name of the day. They’re going to be engaged in a lot of warfare, as we will see. And by the time we’re getting towards the end of this century, we will start to see more of Central Italy under Roman control. Sorry, everyone, spoilers.

Dr G 32:17
Oh my No, goodness,

Dr Rad 32:19
I know I always forget to say spoilers before I say the spoiler.

Dr G 32:23
Can I just note as well is that we’ve talked a little bit about how Livy book one to book five is kind of like his setup for the rest of his history. And 389 I’m not personally reading Livy, but 389 sort of marks his shift into book six. Yes, which is so we’ve got this narrative turning point that we see for Livy as well, which is where we start to feel like we’re going to get more solid Roman history before. Up until now, we feel like we’ve been wading through a lot of question marks, and I’m sure we’ll still have a lot of questions. But the history of the fifth century, of the Republic and this early fourth century, has been tricky in terms of, how do we know what we know? We don’t have a lot of archeological evidence to sort of support one way or the other, the way that these things are operating. We’re not sure about the Gaelic sack at all in terms of stratification layers and things like that. So we end up in a situation where the literature is fundamental to our appreciation of what might be going on, but this means that we’re also limited by the narrative frameworks that our writers are interested in using. How do they want to see Rome themselves? And what does that also tell us about the history?

Dr Rad 33:50
Absolutely, and so we’re also going to see some changes for the conflict of the orders. I’m not going to spoil that. I’ll just say plebeian and patricians. There’s some big things that are going to happen in this century. So that’s going to change a little bit. And perhaps we also as a result of the expansion that Rome is going to undergo over the next sort of, you know, 50 to 70 years or so, we’re going to see a bit of a change in terms of the way that the Romans conceive of their government, things like citizenship. And we’re also going to see some military changes. It seems to be in this century that we start to see the inclusion of the Scutum and the pilum in, yeah, as weaponry. And we also see the transition from the hoplite phalanx to the manipular Legion. Oh, hello.

Dr G 34:41
Okay, so the Scutum is the fancy shield. It is the rectangular one. I believe.

Dr Rad 34:47
I believe so.

Dr G 34:48
And the pilum is the little javelin, which you can also, you can throw it, but you can also stab somebody with

Dr Rad 34:54
it, bop it, switch it, change it.

Dr G 34:58
It’s universal. Yeah, got a problem. Hit it with your pilum.

Dr Rad 35:04
Hit it with your pilum stick. And so, yes, it is that kind of shift to what most people probably think of like the as the Republican Army. You know, a lot of the things that most people would sort of know about. And so, yeah, it’s kind of an interesting phase that we’re getting into. So now I’m going to actually that was something I was borrowing from. Jeremy Armstrong, Thanks, Jeremy. I’m now gonna get into Livy

Dr G 35:26
himself also, Jeremy, come on the show.

Dr Rad 35:29
Let’s chat. I was, you know, we should ask him to come on the show. I was thinking that when I was reading this chapter, I was like, Yeah, this guy, he is on the same wavelength. So Livy, he starts book six with his big sort of transition speech where he’s like, Look, guys, I’m going to be real with you. It’s been tough to write rooms history up to this point. I know I’ve been doing it for a really long time, but I’m not going to lie. Didn’t really have great source material, not really sure how true. What I’ve told you is

Dr G 36:03
disclaimer, the last five books may have been entirely made up.

Dr Rad 36:07
And he says, you know, really, it’s because early in Rome, people just didn’t write things down enough those archaic knob heads rude and so that’s an issue. But also the sack of Rome. The sack of Rome meant that whatever little records he had, like, you know, things that priests were keeping track of, and, you know, recording their commentaries, all of that had been burned when the Gauls had attacked and sacked the city, but now everything is going to be different. Dr G Livy assures you that he has 100% reliable records from this point on. Did you say 100% I’m bringing in my Australian vernacular to our show.

Dr G 37:01
This is not a good sign. Livy, not a good sign. Yeah, look, I’m

Dr Rad 37:07
going to then immediately swell that by saying most historians think this is total bullshit.

Dr G 37:12
Well, exactly. I mean, if the city has been sacked, as you say, and things like the linen scrolls haven’t made

Dr Rad 37:18
it through the fires, well, they’re made of linen. Dr, G, I mean, it’s one of the most lovely materials. But delight,

Dr G 37:25
not sturdy, not fire proof, yeah. So the idea that somehow, from this point onwards, there would be immediately a great profusion of written material surprises.

Dr Rad 37:38
They’re writing everything down now they’ve learned they left.

Dr G 37:41
It’s got to be documented, and you’ve got to put it in the filing cabinet, and there needs to be a backup.

Dr Rad 37:47
Well, I do like the way that my translator has put this little quotation from Livy. He talks about writing as being the sole, trustworthy guardian of the memory of past events.

Dr G 37:59
Oh, that’s actually really beautiful. I don’t know if I 100% agree with that, but certainly it’s very useful when people write stuff down and it lasts and we

Dr Rad 38:08
can read it later, precisely, yeah. Look, most people don’t think as we know, because we’ve been through this in enough detail that Rome was set on fire, to the extent that Livy would like us to believe. So the idea that all written records in the city were destroyed questionable, but also probably not true, that Livy has really reliable records. There’s definitely still some development. I think that needs to happen before we can safely say that what he is reporting is probably really reliable.

Dr G 38:50
And you’ll see why, yes, and look and that’s okay, I think yeah, our doubt about the source material and where it comes from is going to continue for a little while, and I think this is where having alternative sources becomes really useful, because we can see to a certain extent, where they might have taken a piece of information from a similar place, or they’ve consulted a similar source, or whether they’re just operating in a sort of rogue fashion, or maybe have access to sources that other writers aren’t getting their hands on. So it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Dr Rad 39:29
Yeah, look and humans do look for turning points in their histories. That’s kind of natural. So I can understand how, in the way that Livy’s conceived of everything, particularly with his seeming obsession with Camillus, that he wants to see the Gallic sack of Rome, I think, as a real transition point. And he obviously has a sense that his records get better from around this time. And so, you know, when you’re writing things down, it’s nice to make a grand statement that, you know, we’re starting fresh guys, everything’s. To be different after the Gallic sack of Rome. Except it’s not because Camillus is still everywhere.

Dr G 40:07
Yeah. So Well, I mean, Camillus has a lot of places to be, and my sources went through them and thought that they all happened in 390 but Livy seems to think that he was a bit slower off the bat.

Dr Rad 40:19
I assure you, that is not the guess so okay, where we’re at at the beginning of 389 so Rome has obviously been heavily reliant upon Camillus. In my account, as we have seen, he’s a big deal in 390 they’re very reliant on him during this rebuilding period. And they basically say, No, Camillus, you can’t put down your dictatorship until you’ve held it for a full year, because we need you, buddy. We need your power. Now this is unusual. Perhaps it doesn’t sound crazy because of what we know of dictatorships that happen later in Rome’s history, but up until this point, even though we have had quite a lot of dictatorships, when you actually step back and look at what’s happened during those dictatorships, you realize that, like two weeks have passed. It’s not something that people have necessarily helped for a really long time. I haven’t actually added up the statistics, and I now I’m regretting that, but I reckon that the longest dictatorship we’ve generally seen, pre Camillus’ time, I reckon at most was probably a couple of months.

Dr G 41:22
Yeah, we’ve got this sense, and this comes from later history than where we’re at now that the dictatorship is something that you hold for six months. But what we’ve tended to see in these very early versions of the dictatorship that it’s about just getting a single job done, yeah, and as soon as that job is done, and it’s this emergency power, then the dictator steps back down. And we’ve got this really unusual situation now, because it seems like Camillus is being asked to continue well beyond a strict time frame. And they’re kind of saying you need to hold it until X amount of time, which is very different from the idea that as soon as the job is done, you step down, they’re anticipating that he will have to keep going, and they’re not letting him step down to a certain extent, or they’re reinstating him in a way that’s going to force the role to continue.

Dr Rad 42:15
Well, really, he got everything done he needed to in six months, but then that speech he gave lasted for six months, and that’s why they were just factoring in time for the

Dr G 42:25
speech. Yeah, look, that speech

Dr Rad 42:27
was a whopper. Now, eventually, obviously, camilius dictatorship has to come to an end, and this is when Rome decides it’s time to have an interregnum. Dr, G, now, the reason being was that it had been under military tribunes at Rome had been captured, and so they think, you know what, let’s just, let’s take a beat. We need to refresh, and let’s just have an interregnum and not hold the elections straight away. So the Roman citizens are completely oblivious to this, apparently, and just working away at doing their rebuilding. Chip, chip, chip. Dig, dig, brick,

Dr G 43:01
brick, brick. And I assume that Romans are trickling in from the countryside, returning to the city. They’ve heard the news people are randomly turning up being like, do we still live here?

Dr Rad 43:11
And so I’m told that Publius Cornelius Scipio and then Marcus Furius Camillus, are holders of the interregnum, and that eventually Camillus will arrange the elections. So, I mean, I’m like, Come on, guys, is this really necessary?

Dr G 43:27
I’m the guy, and then I’m the guy, yeah, and then I’m gonna be

Dr Rad 43:31
the guy again. Yeah, you thought I was joking when I said it goes from Camillus to Camillus to Camillus. I’m not joking.

Dr G 43:36
No, I can see it in in the list of people for the year. He’s in every

Dr Rad 43:40
role, yeah. But meanwhile, whilst all this election stuff is going on in the background, we have a trial on the horizon. So Quintus Fabius is no longer a military Tribune, one of the foolish Fabii, after the whole Gallic sack, helped to contribute to that whole shimozle, and he is indicted by a tribune of the pleb, one, Gnaeus Marcius. So he’s basically indicting him because he says, Look, you violated a Roman law because you got into a fight with one of the goals when you were just meant to be there as a representative, as an envoy. You really screwed the pooch, man. And so he was 100% going to be put on trial, but he died suspicious.

Dr G 44:33
Question mark,

Dr Rad 44:35
yeah, I think that even Livy believes this is far too convenient and that it might have been a suicide or something like that, because I think he knew he wasn’t going to be able to get out of this one. Yeah, he

Dr G 44:46
definitely stabbed somebody he shouldn’t have.

Dr Rad 44:50
Yeah, and this, this, I kind of love going back to that moment in the sense that this, I think, shows this transitional period where we’re perhaps starting to see Rome. Come out of that more sort of archaic Republican period and into maybe a new phase, perhaps, because it does seem like the fabii were maybe behaving like these sort of elite war leaders, and that’s maybe how all this began, in the way that they were conducting themselves with the Gauls and the Romans when they were writing the history, there’s hints of that behavior, but they’re not conceiving of it that way, and that’s where perhaps the confusion arises.

Dr G 45:28
Yeah, I do like this idea that we’re seeing what is potentially the start of a slow transition from Warband leaders doing what they want to heading up their family and Rome is their second consideration and maybe a small increase in understanding that Rome is the thing that has to come first, and your family is part of Rome, and that’s why you can’t just go out and stab somebody when you’re supposed to be a Roman ambassador. Yeah, yeah, stabbing

Dr Rad 45:56
someone when you’re meant to be an ambassador is not a good idea. I mean,

Dr G 46:00
it seems risky at best.

Dr Rad 46:03
All right, so back to our elections. Dr, G, so there are question marks around this because of Camillus repeated involvement in this whole process. As we know, Camillus seems to have been inserted into events where maybe he wasn’t originally involved, so not entirely sure if there was actually an interregnum or not. However, given that the Romans definitely have been through something traumatic, it wouldn’t be the craziest thing for them to be thinking about, like the renewing the auspices, trying to make sure they’re on, you know, the right path with the gods. So it’s possible that there was an interregnum of sorts at this time period to ease with the transition and sort of, you know, start afresh, basically, now our military tribunes, as you’ve highlighted, we’ve got Lucius Valerius Publicola in Livy’s account, Lucius Verginius, Publius Cornelius, Aulus Manlius, Lucius Aemilius, and Lucius Postumius in Livy’s account, the new military tribunes asked the Senate immediately about some matters concerning religion, because they also are on the Camillus campaign trail. It’s all about doing right by the gods. And so one of their first decrees is, all right, everyone, get your Sherlock Holmes outfits out. We need to find the Twelve Tables and some of the laws that were made by the kings, if it’s even possible, after our city’s been burned to the ground,

Dr G 47:29
somebody find the tablets we need to have law and order around here. They do,

Dr Rad 47:34
apparently, do this investigation, uncover some of the laws, and then some of the laws are even made public so that your average Roman citizen knows what they are. This is

Dr G 47:47
incredible stuff. This is a huge development in Roman history. Everybody, Alert, alert. People can read the laws for themselves.

Dr Rad 47:54
They actually know the rules that they’re supposed to be playing by. It’s outrageous, shocking. However, there is a very deliberate decision made that anything that touches on the sacred rights, and I’m directly quoting my translation there, is only allowed to be known by the pontiffs, basically because, and again, I’m going to directly quote this, they want to hold the minds of the populace in subjection through religious fear.

Dr G 48:29
Look, you win a point and you lose a point, these patricians really okay. So this, unfortunately, makes a good deal of sense for the ancient Roman mindset, particularly the patricians.

Dr Rad 48:43
Oh, look, it’s what we’ve seen time and time again. Dr, G, they really want to keep a stranglehold on that religious aspect. They do,

Dr G 48:50
and we know that religious positions tend to be filled almost exclusively by very elite patrician families. So there’s a sense in which they are holding those secrets very close, and they can decide in the moment what might be best, either according to the things that they’ve kept hidden, or potentially the things that they’ve decided not to reveal to the people. Yeah, so I

Dr Rad 49:16
like that they also start discussing which were going to be the days of evil omen?

Dr G 49:24
Oh, okay, so we’re starting to see the emergence of some calendar details. Which days will be fast, suitable for business, and which days will be nefas, unsuitable for business,

Dr Rad 49:36
unsuitable for business. So the 18th of July. No shock. This is known as a particularly awful day, because not only is it the day where the Romans were defeated by the Gauls at the Alia, but it also was coincidentally, the same exact day of that huge Fabian loss at the Cremera, like way back in the early republic. Hmm. Yeah, they decided to call it the day of the Alia. No public or private business to be conducted on the day of the Alia.

Dr G 50:07
Dr, G, yeah, terribly nefast will have none of that around here.

Dr Rad 50:11
Now, there are also some days that fell out of favor because of the conduct of Sulpicius during this campaign. So basically, on a day after the Ides of July. So like a full moon, sort of period, he had made a dodgy sacrifice, and then, without the divine approval to do so, had led the Romans against the goals. We all know how that turned out.

Dr G 50:35
Oh no, dodgy sacrifices.

Dr Rad 50:38
Good. Yes. Me, not good, not good. So it means that, and I am just going to read this part out, because I think it’s just easier afterwards, it became traditional that the morrow after the Kalends so after the first day of the month and the nones, actually, is it knowns or nones?

Dr G 50:58
I say nones, but don’t let that stop you.

Dr Rad 51:01
Okay, and nones that these should also be avoided because of the issues around the conduct of Sulpicius. Wow. Okay, so, yeah, it all is basically, I think, to do with like, moon cycles and whatnot.

Dr G 51:18
Yeah, interesting. Very interesting. The Romans

Dr Rad 51:23
are now, obviously interested. Now they’ve dealt with all this, the Romans are trying to get themselves back together, back on track, when the Volscians decide to kick off. Because what better time to attack the Romans than now, when they’re still down, and I think that they had come into your account last episode, I see that

Dr G 51:45
Livy is falling behind on the narrative history of Rome. This has already happened, Livy, this all happened in 390 BCE, yeah.

Dr Rad 51:55
And it gets way more sinister, because the Romans also hear through the trade grapevine that the elite from all the major Etruscan cities had met up at the old shrine of Voltumna, which we actually think was more a place of sort of, you know, religious and social and cultural importance, but it pretty much exclusively turns up in Livy’s account as a place of evil plotting against the Romans. They get together and they decide it is time to wage war against the Romans. There’s a lot of evil now we’re not even entirely sure. I’m just going to remind you exactly who Livy’s talking about with the major Etruscan cities. We can be fairly certain of some of them, so probably places like Kari, which is featured very prominently in our account, Clusium, Cortona and that sort of thing. But we’re not entirely sure exactly who would be included in this fabled Twelve. We’re not even sure exactly where this shrine of Voltumna is. Well, I hope it’s in

Dr G 53:01
Etruscan territory for what it’s called. What it’s worth.

Dr Rad 53:04
I think we can say that. I think we can say that. And while we used

Dr G 53:07
to be able to say that they was part of the Twelve, they no longer exists as an Etruscan. I was gonna

Dr Rad 53:12
say he’s on my list, but obviously it does

Dr G 53:14
not exist anymore. Does not count. So if there’s 12, it turned out that there was 11, and they immediately opened up an additional spot for another Etruscan city who was just on the outskirts, being like, why can’t I be part of the 12? And they’re like, No, we have 12. They lose Veii. And they’re like, a place has opened for another city to

Dr Rad 53:34
join us. Yes, only my opportunity. Finally I’m in and then to really cut things off and make 389 a terrible year when Rome really just needed some good news. Dr G the Latins and Hernicians also decide to revolt, which is bizarre, because they have been very loyal allies of Rome for almost a century at this point,

Dr G 53:59
wow, this is where you really find out who your friends are. First you get sacked, and then your friends decide that they’re going to attack you, frenemies at best, as it turns out.

Dr Rad 54:09
And look, there is confusion about exactly what was going on here. And there are a couple of different accounts. I believe Plutarch gives a different reason. It’s possible that there is kind of something else going on in the background here between the Latins and Hernicians, and it’s not really to do with, say, the sack of Rome. Plutarch gives some story about the Latins asking for Roman virgins from the their elite families, and they want to, like, intermarry with the Latins as a way of symbolizing the renewal of their alliance, but the Romans see this as well. If we give you some of our women, it kind of makes it seems like maybe you’re holding them hostage. I’m not sure about this whole scenario

Dr G 54:53
sounds a bit too much like what we did to the Sabines.

Dr Rad 54:57
Yeah. And then there is apparently a servant girl called Tutula, who says that the Romans should pretend like they’re agreeing, but really they’re going to trick them and teach them a lesson. How so the Romans are going to get together some somewhat attractive women of low birth, if such people even exist in the lower classes? Dr, G, I mean, but they dress them up, give them a pretty woman makeover, make them appear like women of high status, and then hand them over to the Latins. Be like,

Dr G 55:36
No, never. We found these women in a swamp.

Dr Rad 55:41
Yeah. And then it does become a bit Trojan War. I’m not gonna lie, the Latins are obviously partying. Be like we’ve got Roman virgins, we’ve got Roman virgins, and so they’re going to get drunk, they’re going to eat a lot, and then they’re going to sleep very deeply because of all of this. And then that’s when the girls steal their Latins. Tutula climbs up a large tree, she lights a torch to send a signal to the Roman leaders that it’s time for the Romans there and their soldiers to leave the city and they enter the Latin camp and slaughter them all and capture the camp. Wow.

Dr G 56:16
Okay, well, that is hugely dramatic. So we’ve got the volscian threat. We’ve got the Etruscans meeting at their secret shrine of evil plotting. And we’ve got the Latin and Hernicians, who have been sort of meek as mice for quite some time, being like it’s our time. Our time has arrived, and almost instantly

Dr Rad 56:36
regretting that decision. Look, even Plutarch says, I’m not sure that this really happened.

Dr G 56:42
Well, thanks Plutarch. I mean me neither.

Dr Rad 56:45
So regardless of whether we think there was indeed a savvy little servant girl called Tutula who managed to devise an ingenious plot based entirely upon the Trojan War to get back at the latinians, it is probably true that there are some issues about the alliance between the Romans and their allies, not that anything’s necessarily going hugely wrong. It’s more just the fact, perhaps, that it’s time, it is time to renew and maybe renegotiate this arrangement which has been in place for some time. So that’s probably what this whole thing is about. It’s actually probably not really to do with the Gallic sack, per se, although

Dr G 57:29
potentially the Gallic sack, having placed Rome in a slightly defensive position, sure means that maybe the Latin and Hernicians feel like now is a good time to renegotiate the treaty in order to get a better favorable deal than what they’ve previously had.

Dr Rad 57:43
Absolutely yes. So Rome is feeling incredibly sorry for itself. Dr, G, it’s sitting there with its head in its hands, saying, Does

Dr Rad 57:52
nobody like me? Do I have no friends, just enemies. I don’t know what I’ve done to deserve this?

Dr G 58:04
Yeah, look, I feel for them to a certain degree, and on the other hand, they did just send a whole bunch of low born women as a trick to their only allies that they have left. But did they don’t you? Well, apparently, look,

Dr Rad 58:23
Plutarch is writing much later than Livy.

Dr G 58:25
That’s true. That’s true. So, yes, it is a shocking time for Rome. They’ve had their city sacked, and it turns out that everybody around them sees this as an opportunity to take them down a peg, rather than lift them back up, and I can imagine that they’re feeling a little bit bereft,

Dr Rad 58:45
yes, and I think that even if we put aside evil plotting and Trixie servant girls, we can definitely see that the Gallic sack might have taken roam down a peg in everyone’s estimation, and that’s why there’s some room for movement, in Some people’s opinion at this moment in time. And it’s because of all of this that the Romans say, You know what, if I only have enemies, then it’s time to use my knowledge from history and go back to the plan that has always worked to put me back in the number one spot, and that is to make Camillus dictator.

Dr G 59:26
You know? What will solve our woes that man? And he’s like, yep.

Dr Rad 59:30
And I think that’s probably a really good moment to wrap up this episode, because, believe it or not, listeners 389 still has a long way to go in my account.

Dr G 59:39
Oh, goodness me. All right. Well, that means it is time for the partial pick.

Dr Rad 59:53
All right. Dr, G, tell us, how does the partial pick work?

Dr G 59:56
Please. Well, the partial pick the Romans, they’re really trying. Thing to win 50 Golden Eagles from us according to the categories that we made up.

Dr Rad 1:00:06
Hey, if look like and Livy are making up things, I don’t see why we should stop.

Dr G 1:00:11
It’s a great barometer of how they’re going. So they can potentially get up to 10 golden eagles in each of the five categories. And let’s see how they do based on what we’ve talked about in this episode.

Dr Rad 1:00:25
All right. Dr, G, what is our first category, please, military clout. Hmm, well, not really. There’s not really. I mean, there will be, there will be a lot of military action in this year, but at this point,

Dr G 1:00:40
no, no, I suppose we could count their sacking of the Latin and Hernician camp

Dr G 1:00:49
as true. If we think it is real, let’s,

Dr G 1:00:53
let’s say for a moment that it’s something that they might have done that probably gives them a two at the very most,

Dr Rad 1:01:01
yeah, yeah, I think so yeah, top those Latins lessons,

Dr G 1:01:05
yeah, all right. Our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:01:10
Well, again, Latin camp, probably not a great example.

Dr G 1:01:15
Well, and that’s that too lost. So who do they negotiate with almost nobody, yeah, not really.

Dr Rad 1:01:22
I mean, everyone is kind of turning on them, I think, and they have yet

Dr G 1:01:27
to figure out what they do in response to that. So that’s a zero, yeah?

Dr Rad 1:01:31
Expansion, definitely not. They’re still just hanging on to their own city and trying to rebuild it. Quite frankly, yes, it

Dr G 1:01:39
is a shattered moment for Rome. We’re to

Dr Rad 1:01:42
us, definitely no opportunity for that.

Dr G 1:01:45
All right, another zero citizen

Dr Rad 1:01:49
score, okay? I mean, they know some of the laws now. Camillus is basically been in power the entire time somehow, which they like, apparently,

Dr G 1:02:01
yeah, they’re into that. And they are in this, what is, what we think is a rebuilding phase, yes. So that’s better than being in a destruction phase.

Dr Rad 1:02:11
Yeah, they’re in their rebuilding era, building maybe like a five, yeah?

Dr G 1:02:17
I mean, it’s not terrible yet, although there are a lot of threats that are now clearly on the horizon.

Dr Rad 1:02:23
Look, there are, and I feel kind of bad rating Rome on just the first bit of 389 to be honest, because there’s just so much to come. But for now, for now, I feel like, you know, we’re not seeing the persecution of plebeians or anything like that. We’re seeing we’re seeing a clever lower class women at work, which is unusual.

Dr G 1:02:45
Yeah, that’s true.

Dr Rad 1:02:47
We know probably fictional.

Dr G 1:02:48
It is very unusual for us to get named women in Roman history in this period, so the fact that we have one is pretty impressive. We have a citizen who was not a patrician, who was also a woman who has a name, and came up with an idea that made it into somebody’s version of history?

Dr Rad 1:03:07
Absolutely, yeah, even though Plutarch might be like, Hmm, at the same time, somebody’s talking about it, if it survived down to plutarch’s time. I mean, he’s writing, God, what the second century?

Dr G 1:03:18
CE, he’s a lot. I’m so used to saying BC,

Dr Rad 1:03:21
I had to stop myself for a moment. There. Moment. He’s writing so much later.

Dr G 1:03:24
Yeah, yeah. So whatever this story is, and whenever it cropped up, it’s, it’s come up in such a way that Plutarch is, like, it’s worth mentioning, even if I have doubts about it, which I think is quite interesting. So it is and,

Dr Rad 1:03:40
oh, I always almost forgot foolish Fabians to account for all the damage that they unleashed. I mean, it’s basically all their fault. I don’t want to point fingers.

Dr G 1:03:53
Finally, there shall be justice for the people. Yeah, all right, five. I think five is good based on that?

Dr Rad 1:04:00
Well, I’m afraid that that still only gives the Romans seven golden eagles. And to be honest, they’re very shaky. They’re not on solid source material. But we have to keep in mind that’s just the first part of 389.

Dr G 1:04:16
There shall be more, dear listeners, shall be blood. Well, unsurprising to me.

Dr Rad 1:04:26
All right. Dr, G, thank you so much for joining me in a new era. It’s exciting.

Dr G 1:04:31
I’m glad to be here. I’m looking forward to Livy retelling the things that have already happened. Frankly, what Livy does best. I’ll catch you next time.

Dr Rad 1:04:50
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources, sound credits, and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, the Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi, but you can also support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to say somewhere to some of our newest Patreons, Meryl, Jacob, Cindy and Vivek. Welcome to our Partial band. However, if you are surrounded by enemies on all sides, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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We have finally reached the LAST part of our coverage of the Gallic Sack of Rome.

Once again, whilst there are similar elements in our sources, it is astonishing to see the different way the authors weave the details together.

Episode 171 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 6

It is not often that Diodorus Sicilus is praised for his accuracy, but this is one of those rare moments. Savour it, everyone! Dr G takes us through the details of his account, in which Camillus is on a military rampage. Forget the Rocky training montage that Livy includes. This is a Rambo montage, with Camillus kicking ass all over Italy. He’s taking down the Volscians, the Aequians, the Etruscans…. where does he find the time?

It is during his escapades that Camillus recovers the ransomed gold, not the rather more dramatic intervention included in Livy’s history. However, Diodorus and Livy are not the only sources to have different explanations for the return of the gold! Some sources claim it was the people of Caere who retrieve the ransom after defeating the Gauls in a battle, and others claim it was one of the Emperor Tiberius’ ancestors who won it back in a battle with a Gallic chieftain.

We will let you guess which version Dr Rad prefers…

Gold bullion, image courtesy of World History Encyclopedia. Original image by Andrzej Barabasz .

Unlike Diodorus, Livy is content to keep the focus on affairs inside Rome. Camillus gets a triumph and then keeps his dictatorship because things are not yet as they should be. Camillus needs to make sure that Rome remains on the good side of the gods. Purification and restoration of the temples was the name of the game.

However, most of the remainder of Livy’s account for this year is dedicated to Camillus giving the MOTHER of all speeches. The tribunes of the plebs were stirring up trouble by pushing for Rome to be moved to Veii. Urgh, the tribunes. They were the only people Camillus did not miss whilst he was in exile.  

Why go to the effort of rebuilding the city when there’s a perfectly good abandoned one right over there?

Well, Camillus can tell you exactly why and in a painful level of detail. To cut a long story short:

Camillus’ rhetoric was incredibly powerful, but a sign sent straight from the gods helped to seal the deal. The Romans were staying put! Time to get Bob the Builder on the phone.

Whichever historian you prefer, we both end up in roughly similar places by the end of 390 BCE (or thereabouts): the gods have been taken care of, the city has been rebuilt, the gold is back in Roman hands, and Camillus is the most awesome general… well, ever!

And THAT brings the Gallic Sack of Rome to a close.

OR

Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC Sounds and Orange Free Sounds.

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:56
Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad,

Dr G 1:04
and I am, Dr G, and we are deep, deep, deep in the Gallic sack of Rome.

Dr Rad 1:12
Is this our longest kind of series, if you will?

Dr G 1:17
Dr G, our longest mini series. It might be. It could possibly be rivaled by Coriolanus, but nevertheless, we are now in what is part six of 390 BCE, and that is a lot of parts.

Dr Rad 1:33
It is, I feel like the decemvirate, it lasted for a long time that dragged on.

Dr G 1:39
That’s true. I don’t even think forgotten, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:42
I don’t even think that the decemvirate it lasted as long as 390 BCE, but there’s just so much drama. Listeners, we have to explore every detail,

Dr G 1:52
so many of those details. And in our previous episode, it was a lot of Livy’s details, if I recall rightly.

Dr Rad 2:01
It was so to give a broad recap of where we have been, the Romans have been very rude to the Gauls interfering in something that really was, quite frankly, none of their business. Whereas maybe what actually happened is maybe we had some sort of Fabian rogue warlords who did something a bit trashy that they weren’t supposed to do, like, I don’t know, kill a Gallic leader and strip his body during the battle, sparked off some resentment between the Romans and the Gauls, if we are to believe it, although, again, alternative accounts would suggest that maybe Rome was just something that the Gauls encountered on their way to somewhere else, and they decided, Hey, that looks like a cool place to sack.

Dr G 2:46
Yeah, there seems to be competing theories. Either

Dr Rad 2:49
way, we have had a military encounter between the Gauls and the Romans. Didn’t go well for the Romans. The Gauls have then followed them back to Rome itself. They’ve set up siege. Lots of Romans have had to flee to various places, including just randomly, the countryside or other cities for safety. But we have a valiant band of Romans who remained in the city, Dr G and they were holding out for so long, but finally, in our last episode, they realized that they couldn’t hold out much longer in my account, they were waiting for Camillus to turn up, because Camillus had somehow been appointed dictator, even though the Romans are scattered throughout Italy at this point in time. And indeed, Camillus does show up, not in time to stop the people who are defending the Capitolini and the citadel of Rome from the Gauls from surrendering, but he shows up just in the nick of time to prevent the Romans from having to hand over this ransom that they were going to pay to the Gauls in order for them to go away, which was very opportune. And then Camillus proceeds to use the soldiers that he’s been training whilst in exile to kick some Gallic butt. Excellent.

Dr G 4:08
It strikes me that Livy is offering us a very convenient narrative that really positions Camillus as the Lord and Savior of our grand city, Rome, and yet his account does not tally up very well with Diodorus Siculus. And I have been flagging this for a little while, and it is, it is now time, I think, to see the great divergence that happens in our source material. Because up until now, they’ve agreed about a lot of things, stories like the sacred geese, stories like people approaching Rome from Fay being like, we’re here to help. There’s a secret force in another place, and all of that kind of stuff. The offensiveness that has happened from the Fabian side that has precipitated this insult, all of these details seen. Him to be part of various narrative sources. But when we get to the issue of what is going on with Camillus, we have Livy’s suggesting that he’s made dictator in absentia and has been preparing even though he’s been in exile for quite some time. And yet, when we turn to Diodorus Siculus, we get a very different sort of recount of the unfolding of these events. So I’d like to take you through some of them.

Dr Rad 5:31
I’m not sure I want to hear this. Dr G I would rather Camillus remained on his pedestal. But if you insist, I shall not be rude.

Dr G 5:40
I’m not sure that I’m going to tear his pedestal completely away, but just to add a bit of complexity.

Dr Rad 5:50
You mean, I haven’t added complexity where I basically questioned almost every detail. I mean, last episode, we basically agreed that there’s very little archeological evidence that the Gauls actually did sack Rome, even though we’re in part six of the Gallic sack, we’re going to

Dr G 6:06
work with the premise for now. Yeah, there was some sort of Gallic sack, yeah, but obviously, a lot of this is open to question, and from an archeological perspective, we’re a little bit confused, and particularly because our sources do emphasize this idea that there is a rebuilding phase, yes, so we have the Gauls take the gold, and the Romans do hand over this huge sum of money, and the Gauls do walk away.

Dr Rad 6:37
Do they agree on the amount of gold that was handed over? At least Diodorus and Livy.

Dr G 6:41
Oh yes, oh yes, yeah. It’s 1000 pounds of gold. It’s, it is a huge sum for this time period. I mean, it would be a huge sum at any time if somebody came to say 1000 pounds of gold, I’d be like, I cannot.

Dr Rad 6:54
I didn’t even have any gold jewelry to give you. Yeah, my

Dr G 6:57
earthly possessions, if you converted it to gold, would not tally up to anywhere near that. So it is massive what has been asked and what has been handed over. And in Diodorus Siculus, there is no Camillus on the scene.

Dr Rad 7:14
Well, suspect immediately, suspect.

Dr G 7:18
Questions need to be asked. So the Gauls start to leave. They take the gold with them, and the Romans immediately turn to rebuilding the city, because there has been plenty of damage created by the siege. And we get this idea that the Romans gather together, they decide that there will be a state funded rebuilding program,

Dr Rad 7:42
essentially sounds very formal,

Dr G 7:44
very formal. Yes. Sign on the line here, and you’re entitled to 10 Roman roof tiles which you can use to rebuild your home. Yeah. So these, this idea of roof tiles being manufactured and given out to Roman citizens seems to be part of the rebuilding program, and Camillus still nowhere to be seen. People are like, I’m just gonna rebuild my house. I got these public tiles. I’ve got my willpower, and I’m just gonna try to rebuild So fair enough at the same time. And I think I’ve mentioned this previously as well. The Volscians have seen this as a prime opportunity. Rome is at its most vulnerable, and they can see from afar that presumably there’s like a sort of a pile of trash where a city used to be, and there’s some people picking through it being like, I can rebuild. It’s our time to take the spot we can take them. So that’s what they decide to do. They roll up to Rome, essentially, and the Romans can see them coming, and they’re like, Oh, we better try and muster as many people as we possibly can. This is a Roman force that has just endured a siege. They’re probably not most robust in their physicality right now, but they do try to field an army to propel the Volscians. And it is only at this point where, and we don’t know where Camillus has been all this time, because it’s not entirely clear.

Dr Rad 9:21
Ardea, obviously, he’s been doing a rocky montage.

Dr G 9:29
He has been very busy with his rocky montage, that’s true, and he is now appointed dictator. So finally, he re enters the narrative way too late for the Gallic sack of Rome. He misses it all not there. Just want to underline that point. He missed the whole thing.

Dr Rad 9:50
Livy has far too many rhetorical gems for this to be untrue. Dr, G, I mean, what are you suggesting that he can. Instructed most of the first of his 10 books, and almost certainly book six to 10, around the figure of Camillus, because he had such a grand reputation in the late Republic.

Dr G 10:13
Maybe, certainly, certainly Livy’s operating under the constraints that Diodorus Siculus is not and this might mean that for this portion of Diodorus’ history, for which he rarely focuses on Rome, because let’s face it, he’s more interested in what’s actually happening in the broader Mediterranean, which is Greece, naturally. But when he does decide to focus on Rome, he might be a little bit more objective than say, somebody like Livy putting it out there.

Dr Rad 10:49
You’re gonna be very sorry when I tell you what else Livy has to say about this whole deal, my friend. Because we haven’t even got to the end of this year in Livy’s account, there is plenty more Camillus to come.

Dr G 11:01
Oh, and there’s plenty more Camillus to come in Diodorus Siculus as well. So there might be moments where this all starts to make sense again. On some level, Camillus forces are able to take down the Volscians, and apparently they are slaughtered, almost to a man. So that’s pretty bad. And it’s at that point that Camillus then starts to go on what appears to be an all over Italy sort of rampage with his forces, because once he locks in the victory over the volscian he immediately turns towards the city of bola, which is thought to be the same place as modern Labici, 35 kilometers south east of Rome. So we’re in the Castelli Romani region. Something’s been going on there. Bola is being besieged by the Aequians. So, you know, while the Gauls have been doing things, all the neighboring people have been getting up to naughtiness. As far as the Romans are concerned, Camillus goes and clears them out as well. So he immediately heads 35 kilometers south. So we really need, like, a map montage for the things that are going to happen, because he starts off with the volscian He then marches south east, deals with the Aequians. He then marches all the way to Sutrium, 50 kilometers north of Rome, a Roman colony there is being plagued by the Etruscans, so they need to be dealt with as well.

Dr Rad 12:33
This all adds up. Now I see where Diodorus is going. And look, I think this has to do with our confusing chronology for the events of this year. Because, of course, we’re saying that the Gallic sack of Rome, Gaelic attack on Rome, whatever you want to call it, happens in 390 but of course, that’s not 100% certain. In fact, I would say it probably didn’t happen in that year. It’s just the confusing nature of the chronology of this time. And certainly in Livy’s account, Camillus is about to do all of those things, but not yet. Dr G, he has something else to deal with. And this is again, where you can see how Livy’s very much making this the Camillus show, and he’s focusing on something totally different to what you’ve just been talking about, because that’s going to come later.

Dr G 13:21
So he takes Sutrium back, because apparently it was a Roman colony and it needed to be returned to Roman control. So the Etruscans, they see Camillus coming and like, Oh no, Rome’s back, and it’s a disaster for them. And then it turns out that the Gauls have not really left Italy. After all, they’ve taken a small break at a city called Vascium, which is 125 kilometers north of Rome. Camillus hears wind of this, and he’s like, this is our chance we can get the gold back. And so it’s another quick march further up into Etruscan territory, they attack the Gaulish force. Slay them in huge numbers, because obviously the Gauls are also sort of suffering from the siege aftermath, and they’re not having a great time. And it is there, apparently, all this way north of Rome, deep inside Etruscan territory, that Camillus is finally able to take back Rome’s gold and return it back to the city. So this is a quick fire, sort of moving south, moving north, moving north again, attacking everybody. Camillus comes in like a train, and nobody can, nobody can resist the power of his militarism, and he gets back the gold.

Dr Rad 14:46
So Diodorus still has Camillus being responsible for the return of the gold, which is interesting, because we do have these snippets in other sources, like Suetonius tells the story about one of Tiberius’ ancestors in. Getting into like a duel with a Gallic character, and winning the gold back that way. We also have a little tidbit in Strabo, I believe, where he talks about the people of Caere which was the city you might recall, where the Vestal virgins took, apparently, a lot of room sacred objects when the siege was imminent. And it’s perhaps because of this and the people from Caere recovering the gold and giving it back to the Romans, that the Romans have this special relationship with them, which we’ll get to, I’m sure, in both of our accounts very shortly. So it’s interesting that Diodorus is still maintaining that Camillus is responsible for it, even though it happens in a very different order and a different way.

Dr G 15:42
Yeah, so we have a certain amount of consistency with Livy. It’s just that the timelines really don’t match up at all. And Camillus does all of these sort of really what sounds like fantastical, sort of military movements in quick succession, one after the other, and is kind of everywhere in central Italy, and then all of a sudden, is like, Haha, I found it. And then comes back to Rome,

Dr Rad 16:06
the goal at the end of the rainbow,

Dr G 16:09
definitely, as far as he’s concerned, he’s found the treasure. Yeah.

Dr Rad 16:13
Okay, so in Livy, the timeline is quite different. He gives a lot more detail to these, these military escapades that you’re talking about, and they happen in, I think, different years. So that’s why it’s it’s kind of a bit more spaced out. And this is, perhaps, again, as we talked about, like the the slight padding that might have gone on with some of the years in this time period, and the way things are, the way things are adding up, and perhaps also, as you have highlighted, the way that Livy may or may not have inserted Camillus in moments where Camillus did not actually belong. So we will see. But in my account, Camillus goes from basically killing all of the Gauls immediately so he prevents the gold from leaving Rome. He then uses the troops that he’s been training in exile once he knew that Rome wanted him back and wanted him as dictator to absolutely annihilate them. The Romans are thrilled. Everything is looking much, much better, even though, obviously it’s still not great because they still just come out of the siege and their city apparently has been burnt to the ground. However, this is where we need to switch to the classic conflict of the orders kind of material?

Dr G 17:24
Ooh, yes, yes, do tell

Dr Rad 17:28
we’re going back to an issue which has been flagged in some of our previous episodes, which is that ever since the Romans have conquered they there has been a group that think it would be a good idea to move at least some of the Romans to ve to live there. So this is where this issue comes back up. The tribune of the plebs, who we haven’t talked about for a while, decide to be bothersome ruin camilius good time, because they desperately still want the Romans to move to vain now they have a real reason to argue for that. It’s not just, Oh, hey, there’s this whole city just sitting there. Why don’t we move some people over there? Now they’re looking around and saying, Hey, did you notice that our city’s just been burnt to the ground by some invading Gauls, rather than hanging around here, which is depressing and there’s no shelter, etc, why don’t we just take this opportunity to pack up and move to they the plebs are listening because they can see the sense in this. Because they’re looking around too and saying, Oh yes, I see what you mean. Burnt city seems like a lot of hassle when there’s this empty city just sitting right there, not that far away from Rome. However, this is absolutely abhorrent to Camillus. He completely shuts it down. Won’t hear talk of this at all, and he actually gets to keep his dictatorship, even after he has dealt with the Gauls and massacred them, because the Senate feel that they need him in this position of authority in order to make sure that this whole crazy Veii plan doesn’t gain any traction. So he’s still got some time. He’s managed to accomplish everything very quickly, saying once he’s back on the scene in Livy’s account. So he’s still got some time. And so they want him around to oversee the process for Rome at this point in time, post sack by the Gauls. Okay?

Dr G 19:41
So he’s kind of in a disaster relief position,

Dr Rad 19:45
yes, and they the Senate feel safer because, again, this is lending, This is lending to that conflict of the orders narrative. We’re presuming that most of the senators, at least in Livy’s account, are meant to be, obviously, patricians, we presume, even though we know that. That’s not always the case, apparently, and Camillus would be protecting their interests and what they want to see happening at this point in time. So what ends up happening is Camillus decides that religion needs to be his focus as dictator. Because this is a very big characteristic of Camillus and Livy’s account, he’s extremely pious, and as I’ve been trying to highlight with Livy’s account, he is at pains to emphasize when the Romans have been displeasing the gods, and then to emphasize when the Romans are actually doing things by the book, and therefore kind of deserve the God’s favor. And what we’ve seen is that ever since the Gauls started attacking Rome, and things went bad for them at the Alia in that initial battle, the Romans have been trying to do things correctly. So we’ve had, you know, Fabians wandering about with seemingly not a care in the world in order to carry out family rituals. And we’ve seen Camillus, you know, refuse to be accepted as a refuse to be appointed as a dictator unless the proper procedures have been followed. So this is carrying on, this idea that the Romans are back on track. They’re laser focused. Dr, G, they’re not just to do anything to upset the guards. This time around, they’ve learned their lesson.

Dr G 21:19
It is a very bizarre time, and it’s a confusing time within the source material as well. So this is where I would start to have a look at plutarch’s Life of Camillus, because he is obviously trying to write some moral edifying biographies. And it’s like, what can we learn from people, and what would be the appropriate things to do. And he taps into some of this. And there is a sense in which Camillus becomes fundamental in certain narratives, and certainly in plutarch’s narrative, to the proper and right way of doing things when it comes to ritual practice in the wake of the Gallic sack. So we first of all hear about the priests all returning, so slowly the news gets out that the Gauls have gone and people can start coming back to Rome. That’s really important, because a lot of Rome’s ritual practice is dependent on the geography. So you can’t be a Vestal virgin in practice, unless you’re in the temple in the Aedes Vestae. Likewise, what would it mean to read the signs of the birds if you’re not standing in the right location? Because it would be bird signs for somewhere else, not for where you are. All of these things become dependent on geography. So having the priest come back, super important moment in terms of getting Rome back on track, and that seems to be facilitated by the Gauls leaving. And Camillus seems to also be involved in this, to a certain degree. He apparently starts to restore some of the temples that have been damaged in the wake of the sack. And plutek makes reference to one that we really don’t know anything about, called a temple to rumor and voice, which is a new temple, apparently.

Dr Rad 23:11
Yeah, that might be related to the, you know, how there was that plebeian who heard the voice warning? I think that might

Dr G 23:18
be that was ignored. Yes, quite possibly it’s called the Ara Aii Locutii, yeah, that’s the one, yeah, and we kind of don’t hear about it again, but it’s apparently very important, and Camillus is involved, so there is that. But we also have this continuing discussion, as you mentioned, between what about they versus what about Rome? And it seems to be an almost irresolvable question for the Romans about what do we do with this place that we’ve we took so long to take but now we’re not really doing anything with it’s

Dr Rad 23:57
Valuable real estate. It’s just sitting there.

Dr G 24:00
Yeah, I’m just gonna let it accumulate value in this late stage capitalism. It’s gonna be great. So they’re just sort of sitting on Veii, but not actually utilizing it. And I can see, from a plebeian perspective, why that would be such a waste. And I’m not sure that I understand the mindset of these very conservative patricians about nobody can go there, and maybe they’re just worried about having rivals, because obviously a new elite would emerge in a different location. So I find these things really quite interesting, because it’s all happening at the same time. We’ve got Rome expanding and then immediately contracting, and now having to deal with its expansionist legacy in a moment where they’re still recovering from the contraction, which is the Gauls arrival.

Dr Rad 24:50
Well, Dr, G, you could not have given me any more perfect a segue. You want to understand the mindset of the conservatives that don’t want to go to Veii. You’re about to get pages of it be. Because Livy’s about to give you a giant speech from Camillus. No, before I get into the speech, I will give you the exact details that Livy tells me Camillus focuses on first. So he goes to the Senate and he gets them to issue a decree so that he can actually go about the religious program that he thinks needs to happen in order to make sure that everything is square for the Romans. So exactly as you said, shrines and temples, they obviously need to be purified. They need to be restored after the Gallic sack. If we think of the Gallic sack as maybe being more about the Gauls seizing any portable wealth that Rome had as a city, that would make sense. Shrines and temples are places that the Gauls definitely would have gone to to see if there was anything valuable inside those buildings, which presumably would have been a bit more monumental or perhaps well cared for than some of the other dwellings that would have existed in Rome at this time. And I kind of do think that that’s probably what the Gauls were more after. I don’t think they were actually that interested in setting Rome on fire, and certainly there’s no evidence of that. And we also have this reference to duumvirs, who who are asked to look through the sibylline books to make sure that the proper rights are followed. And the sibylline books come up again and again in our histories of Rome. These are books that the Romans tend to turn to in times of trouble when they need to look to the answers for things in this collection that has been put together and and also make sure that everything is is going according to plan, as seems to be what they’re doing here. This is where Camillus also suggests that Rome needs to have this covenant of hospitality with car a now in Livy’s account, that’s because car a took in the refugee Romans, so the vessels who were fleeing with the sacred objects, carre took them in and kept them safe. And this is why it’s important to honor that. Because of that, the Roman gods have still been able to receive some worship whilst the galaxy was going on, which, as we’ve talked about in a previous episode, apparently, was like six or seven months, so quite a long time. However, it could be, as we were just talking about, that the people of carre are the ones that actually retrieved the gold for the Romans, and therefore that’s why they have this reputation. But that is not mentioned by Livy,

Dr G 27:33
yeah, we owe you big time.

Dr Rad 27:37
He also wants the Capitolini games to be held. So these are games that are set up in honor of Jupiter, because Jupiter did not allow Rome to completely fall. They held that tiny piece of territory amidst all the trouble, even though some modern historians don’t actually think that that is true, and that Rome was maybe captured in its entirety. We’ll run with the version that the Romans have, which is that they held that Capitolini Hill till their dying breath.

Dr G 28:09
They held out that little square where Jupiter’s temple also stands. They managed to salvage that. Thank you, Jupiter,

Dr Rad 28:18
yes, and in order for this to happen, he puts together a college of priests who are going to be involved in organizing and holding the Capitolini games called the Capitolini, once again, Rome with the clever names.

Dr G 28:36
They do love a clever name.

Dr Rad 28:37
These men are chosen from the men who were involved in holding the hill originally. Obviously, that can’t be true forever, but he chooses from amongst those men who had stayed behind in Rome the whole time and helped to hold the hill. Now, we actually don’t know for certain when the Capitolini games were first held in Rome. We, as usual, have varying accounts that show the Romans themselves are a little confused. Certainly, Camillus is a popular choice as the person who founds the Capitolini games or sets up the Capitolini games, but we do also have references to figures like Romulus organizing the first Capitolini games. What we can say safely is that they old. They real old,

Dr G 29:22
quite, quite old. Yes, okay, that’s really interesting. I think tapping into the idea of having held the Capitol line, and that being the foundation story essentially for the capitolini’s games is it feels like a nice, neat narrative. So I can see why it would be an appealing sort of backstory, so an etiology for what’s going on here. Yes, there are some weird sort of connections that sort of crop up amongst all of this, and I don’t want to destroy what might be coming up for you, but. But are we going to talk about the head?

Dr Rad 30:03
Yes, but not quite yet. That comes up in the speech, okay. Oh, building up. We’re talking about the same head.

Dr G 30:12
Wink Wink. Listeners, watch out if you already know about the head. This is a spoiler.

Dr Rad 30:19
So this is where Livy also tells me about the temple being set up to Aius Locutius. So that’s the God that is now recognized because of the omen that was given to that plebeian who was ridiculed and not believed before the Gallic Sack actually happened. And now, of course, Camillus also has to decide what to do with the gold because in this account, the Gauls never got it. The Romans collected it, but they kept it. Now, this is where it gets a bit confusing, because, as you know, Livy was very clear that the gold was somehow taken from state funds and also topped up by contributions from people like the matrons, this group of random women that we get to reference every now and then,

Dr G 31:04
oh, look. And Diodorus Siculus also backs up that idea that the women contributed to that fund. So that is a sort of an enduring, kind of repeated narrative as well, that the women were involved.

Dr Rad 31:16
Sure, I believe that the women were involved. Do I believe that the Romans didn’t borrow a little bit of their funding from maybe some temple treasury. I don’t know that I do. Dr G,

Dr G 31:30
it’s hard, you know, you’re stuck on a hill. What are you gonna do?

Dr Rad 31:33
Yeah, well, the Romans had gathered up certain temple treasure and stored it all in the temple of Jupiter, because, of course, that’s on the Capitoline, which is what they were defending. And now that the siege is all over, they can’t remember where it all came from. They’re like, Ah, I guess we should have labeled this. Oh, this is awkward. I don’t know what to do.

Dr G 31:56
Did nobody keep a spreadsheet for this guys? Guys, I

Dr Rad 32:00
know this is what Excel was invented for Jesus Christ, Marcus. So they decide that they’re just going to wave their magic wand and say, poof, all of this gold is now sacred and it’s going to be placed under Jupiter’s throne.

Dr G 32:18
Ta, da, ooh. All right, well, at the risk of making all the other gods that have their temples elsewhere in the city, that have had their treasure poor loin to go up to the top of that hill. Well, that’s bold move Rome.

Dr Rad 32:32
It didn’t happen. That’s why we don’t have to worry about it. Now this is where the Romans also decide they’re going to give a vote of thanks to the matrons for their contribution, and they are, once again, recognized in the traditional manner that matrons usually are when they help the other Romans out, which is they get to have eulogies at their funerals, like their superior men or something.

Dr G 32:59
This is big, all right, somebody’s going to talk about you after you die. It’s a special privilege, exactly.

Dr Rad 33:06
It’s very unusual for women to get this sort of honor. Again, we’re not entirely sure that this would have happened, but sure, let’s run with it. Give the women something in return for their contributions.

Dr G 33:19
You can have a gift, but you have to be dead first, so make the most of it.

Dr Rad 33:23
Well, I think that in See, this is the thing in Livy’s account, as you say, it is very neat. In Livy’s account, the Roman women contribute this. They contribute their gold so that sacred treasure can be left untouched. So they’ve got their state funds secured on the Capitol. They don’t have quite enough to pay the Gauls, so the Roman matrons chip in, and that way it’s all nice and neat. No sacred treasure is touched in Livy’s account. But as we say at this point in time, what is money? What is goods? What are we talking about? And it just seems really unlikely that these besieged Romans, when everyone else has fled the city, actually had this large lump of capital just sitting there that wasn’t temple treasure. But anyway, I’ve talked about this enough. Once all of this stuff is taken care of, Camillus can rest easy. Dr G he’s got all his piety out of his system. He feels like Rome is now in a good place. Now is when he can turn to properly deal with these troublesome tribunes and the question of they so he goes to an assembly, as do the Senate, and he’s about to give the mother of all speeches.

Dr G 34:38
Dare I ask? How many pages this runs to in the translation.

Dr Rad 34:42
Oh, pages. Well, I mean, for Livy, it’s long, like it’s nothing compared to probably what you used to have to go through with Dionysius back in the good old days. But it’s long as far

Dr G 34:51
as when I had a source. Okay, all right, I’m gonna strap myself in.

Dr Rad 34:56
Yep. Get ready for it. Yeah. Camillus is particular. Ly distressed by this whole situation, because the one thing that sort of made him feel somewhat okay about being in exile in Ardea was the fact that he actually he hated the idea that people even wanted to go to they kind of made him go, You know what? Maybe I shouldn’t be in Rome. Maybe Rome does suck. Maybe our deer is not so bad, because the Romans are actually considering going to Veii – disgusting,

Dr G 35:29
such a low move, he

Dr Rad 35:31
actually says he would never have even gone back to Rome, even if the Senate and the people had begged him just so he could avoid tribunes like this.

Dr G 35:44
I just this Roman mindset is baffling. It really is.

Dr Rad 35:48
He really only came back because Rome was just in such a bad situation. He felt like he really couldn’t say no. But I mean, if it had been a little bit better, maybe he wouldn’t Dr G because tribunes, they’re the worst. He then points out, annoyingly logically, why even bother to fight the Gauls? Why drive them out of Roman territory if you’re then just going to turn around and abandon the City immediately? Why did I do all of this? Why did I come out of exile? Why did I do the Rocky montage?

Dr G 36:21
But counterpoint, counterpoint. It’s not all Rome moving to Veii. It’s just some of the people moving to ve like we’re not talking about leaving Rome in the dust and pretending like it never existed. We’re just saying some people are now living on this hill over here.

Dr Rad 36:38
That was the initial proposal back before the Gallic sack had happened, you’re absolutely right, they were talking about maybe dividing the population and only sending some I think at this point though, Rome is so atrociously destroyed in Livy’s account that maybe it’s more we actually all relocate. Even worse, even be like,

Dr G 36:59
Guys, yeah, everything’s been burnt down here. Like, let’s Veii still has some building standing. Like, bite the bullet, just let’s move.

Dr Rad 37:08
Yeah, so Camillus so Camillus then says, you know, the Romans have managed to hold the Capitol and the Citadel all throughout this terrible time. Again. Why would you put yourself through that. I mean, basically the brink of starvation and all that deprivation. We can’t even imagine what those guys went through, and then they’re just going to walk away and leave it voluntarily, that patch that they defended for so long. I don’t think so. Camillus also brings in his religious side here. Of course, he feels like Rome’s gods, their religious traditions that had endured for hundreds of years at this point had always managed to protect Rome, even in this moment, there has been that level of protection. How could the Romans think of turning their backs on their gods now? Because, as you pointed out, there are certain things which are very much tied to the city of Rome itself. You can’t just move them to a new location, at least the way that the Romans have done them in the past. Camillus points out that if the Romans actually do their math, get out their Excel spreadsheet over the past few years, whilst Yes, they’d had some very high hives and some very low lows, but the highs had always coincided with moments where the Romans were listening to the gods. Need he say more? Dr G, this misfortune with the gods had all happened because the Romans had started turning their backs on the gods and not listening to the many warnings that were provided to them that could have helped them to avoid this whole situation. Once the chips were down with the Gauls, then the Romans started to get back on track again, get religious again. They had made sure that they held the capital and Jupiter Optimus, Maximus had helped them out as well. The Gauls had never managed to take the Capitol line. They’d also buried their holy relics, because the Romans were trying to make sure that such things could not fall into barbarian hands as mere loot, mere booty. It had all been protected. The earth of Rome itself had protected their holy relics. How could the Romans think of leaving the earth the soil? Dr, G,

Dr G 39:31
well, I feel like Camillus is getting carried away, because part of the trouble that Rome has faced is because he’s forgotten some of his oaths. Like, lest we forget that Camillus is part of the problem.

Dr Rad 39:45
Look, maybe he’s not trying to deny that. Maybe he’s trying to, I think the thing is, here’s the thing is forgetfulness. You know, once you realize you forgot something, he’s like, Ooh, this is going to be awkward, guys, but I need some of that booty back. Yeah, he always tries and does the right thing. He just sometimes he seems to be a little bit of a buffoon,

Dr G 40:12
debatable, but yeah, look here he is getting up and being like, you just got to make things right with the gods. I’m like, buddy, you need a mirror.

Dr Rad 40:20
Nonetheless, he’s very much on this bandwagon that once the Romans were facing danger, they did the right thing. They made sure that everything was safe, that was holy, kept the temple treasures safe, and due to this, it’s because of this that the Romans managed to get back their land, not necessarily because of him, but because the gods were now back on their side, and this is something that Livy also mentioned, that fortune was now back on the Roman side. When they were able to massacre every living goal, there are no goals left. Dr G, the Romans have killed them all, and the Gauls got their punishment, because when they tried to do their trickery with the scales, what happened? They didn’t get the girl, did they? No, no, the gods made sure that Camilla showed up at just the right time to make sure that they would be punished. I mean, do you need any

Dr G 41:21
certain scholarly accounts only for certain types of evidence?

Dr Rad 41:28
Camillus really wants the Romans to realize that they have only, just by the skin of their teeth, managed to avert total disaster, and yet, if they decide to relocate today, they’re just going to be running headlong into another one, and he is here to give them their wake up call. The entire city of Rome is completely shot through with their religion, their gods, the sacrifices that need to happen every year, the Holy Days that have to be observed every year. Are the Romans really thinking they can just leave? He comes back to this point a lot. Do the Romans really think they can just leave? Not just the state deities. Dr G, think of the family gods. So I presume he’s referring to things like the lares, which FYI we’ve done a special episode on archaic religion in Republican Rome that you might like to listen to to understand more about that. But they are definitely important to the Romans. He thinks, how does this stack up when you also compare the conduct of the Romans right now where they’re thinking of leaving to that of Gaius Fabius during the Gallic sack. I mean, he had risked death to make sure that the appropriate rituals had been carried out. He did not let the worship slip. Famine or no famine, Siege or no siege, and now the citizens we’re not even faced with any danger are again thinking that they can somehow be more cash about all these rituals when there’s no immediate reason for them to ignore what is going on? What are they thinking?

Dr G 43:20
Just a slight question, is it the case that when Livy is writing that there seems to be some concerns about people leaving Rome for other places? Is Is there some sort of contemporary anxiety around robe itself at this point in time when Livy is composing this history? Because this sounds like somebody who’s a little bit scared that maybe things aren’t going well in contemporary, late Republican Rome.

Dr Rad 43:47
Well, I mean, I think the Gallic sack is meant to be a pretty bad time, even if it didn’t happen exactly the way that Romans say it happened. I mean, we’re calling into question a lot of the details that we’re given, but I don’t doubt there was some conflict with Gallic peoples at this point in time. I absolutely don’t dispute that. There’s way too much evidence to the contrary, and not just in Rome. Definitely there are Gauls about they’re looking, probably for land. They probably are looking for portable wealth. So I’m not disputing that. It might be a bad time, but they, I think, is the big thing here about Romans sort of deciding its destiny, as we’ve talked about. It seems odd, given that the siege of Veil lasted for 10 years, and then when the Romans finally win, they seem somewhat surprised and don’t really have a plan as to what they’re going to actually do with Veii once and conquer it.

Dr G 44:36
But this is one of those classic lessons from history where people do not anticipate the consequences of their actions, and then things work out in the way that they were hoping, but they do not have any idea about the next step. And you’re like guys, you’re now in the position where you have exactly what you want.

Dr Rad 44:55
Now this is where Camillus also starts to try and anticipate some of the arguments that the tribunes. Going to throw back at him, of course, he says, you know, maybe the tribunes are going to say, don’t worry about it. You can just transfer all the rites and rituals and all the family gods to Veii. Or what if the pontiffs and the flamens, they just visit the old side of Rome when they need to for the rites. You know, they just fly in, fly out, they’re there and back in the day. No sweat. But to this, Camillus says, No, this will not satisfy the gods. It is not good enough. So don’t even think about it. The gods have high standards. You cannot hold the feast of Jupiter anywhere else but the Capitol period. Now, what he is referring to here is a banquet that was held on the 15th of November where a couch would be set up for Jupiter and Juno and Minerva had little stools on either side, and they would have this feast for Jupiter. So that’s what he’s particularly referring to, and you’ll like this. Dr G, this is where he brings up the Vestal Virgins. What about Vesta’s fires? They can’t just be moved. They belong to Rome itself. He also brings up, and I’m going to quote my translation directly here, the image which is preserved as a pledge of empire in her temple, which is a reference to an image of Pallas known as the Palladium, which was supposedly brought to Italy by Aeneas, so very much part of the Roman foundational myths, linking them to the Trojan Wars, something very important to them. He also brings up what he refers to as the sacred shields. Yes, these go back to the reign of NUMA Doctor G Another favorite of yours, indeed. Yes. So it started up with Mars Gradivus, or Gradivus and Quirinus, the idea of the sacred shields, and they’re sometimes, I think, called the ancillia. I believe, I think we probably actually referred to these things before, but supposedly the original one came from heaven. There were 11 replicas made, and each one was given to one of the 12 Salii Priests of Mars. No one knows which one the original one is, but there is an original. Dr G and Camillus is not happy about this situation.

Dr G 47:32
There is an original. And the priests of the Salii are the ones who look after that, right? And it is very important, and you do not want to lose any of the shields, because each one of them could be the one that fell from heaven. And Camillus is tapping into ideas here that Romans do have about location being a primary feature of their devotion to the gods, because there is no doubt, from a Roman perspective, that you would not be able to perform the rites of Vesta in a different location. Each city could have priestesses to Vesta, but if you went to Veii, they would be priestesses of Vesta in Veii. So it’s fundamentally not Rome anymore. So this taps into a kind of fundamental sense of like, what is Rome? In terms of like, the broader understanding of self and Rome is at least in part, fundamentally about the location. It’s that spot on the Tiber. It is those hills on which they have built those structures, and nothing is able to replicate that. And the real concern is that their understanding of their relationship with the gods is dependent on that location as well. So there’s no guarantees if you move to Veii that things will work out for you, because the gods are the same, but you are now different. And what does being in a right relationship with the Roman gods really look like? And because they have this sense that it’s tied to location, it’s impossible to leave, and we see that coming through in other things as well. So I think we talked recently on Let’s Talk about Myths, Baby podcast, about the triumphal procession, and that in two is geographically tied to the city of Rome. You wouldn’t have a triumph somewhere else. Romans up expanding a lot, but some things are fundamental to location, and so Camillus is tapping into a deep Roman definition of self, which is about this place, and only this place which is really quite fascinating. And I think Livy is doing something interesting here by tapping into that as well, definitely.

Dr Rad 49:51
And so even though this might be a speech invented for Camillus by Livy, maybe May, May. See at the same time the stuff that Camillus is referring to as examples of things that are particularly tied to Rome. As you’ve just say, they are definitely of tremendous antiquity to the Roman people. You know this feast of Jupiter that was held every year, it does go all the way back to a point where we can’t really trace when it started the Palladium. Again, there’s definitely question marks about how Aeneas supposedly brought this to Rome. But nonetheless, the idea of it is something again, that’s it’s quite old. It’s meant to be quite an old example, and it just goes to show some of the stuff that the vessels were put in charge of protecting the vessels themselves, obviously very ancient. You know that there’s a lot of stuff here that he’s tapping into that is so archaic we can’t be 100% sure of the origin these things. So he is tapping into those really, really archaic traditions, including like the lares, for example. You know, when we were talking about religion, the lares, the Romans themselves, didn’t even know exactly when that all began and when that started, and exactly where that came from. They have lots of theories, and some of them are probably tapping into something, but we can’t say for certain this is how it began and this is how it evolved. So he’s bringing in all of that kind of stuff, which makes sense, because at for this time period, obviously that stuff is a little less ancient than it is for someone like Livy writing many years later. And so Camillus goes back and points out there’s just such a contrast he feels between the Romans that he’s addressing now and the ancestors of the Romans who helped to establish these temples, these rites. I mean, they set them up as rituals to be passed down and to be carried out. And what are the current day Romans actually going to do with them? Just leave them, disregard them. He points out exactly what you said. How can they actually move cities and move all this ritual without it ending up being absolutely horrific. I mean, they thought the Gallic sack was bad. That was just after ignoring a couple of things and getting a few things wrong. What are you gonna do now

Dr G 52:13
when you ignore a plebeian, what if you ignore the whole geography of the city? Yeah, exactly, guys, it’s too risky. Yeah.

Dr Rad 52:21
And he also points out the effort they went to to entice Juno over when they conquered they’re like, why did we even try and tempt Juno over to Rome and then build her this whole temple on the Aventine? Why did I just build the temple to Aius Locutius? Why did I found the Capitoline and games if you’re all just gonna leave, because this is all stuff that’s obviously, you know, happening in the city. The vestals always stay in their same place, unless there is an extremely serious enemy attack, like the one that just happened that absolutely forces them to leave the flamen diailis, which, again, we talked about in our episode on religion. As you said, there are so many rules that the Flamen dialis has to follow, including they’re not allowed to sleep outside of Rome even for one night. So how is that going to work if you just want to move to they? Is he just gonna stay there by himself, all alone?

Dr G 53:23
Well, obviously he’s not moving, so, yeah, well, he’ll be there with his wife. So cute. Those two can stay. Everybody else has to move.

Dr Rad 53:34
Yeah, sorry. I probably should actually say, sorry, he Flamen dialis is one of the most important flamens In the Roman system, there are three big ones, and he’s one of the three big ones. Very important, very important. And he says, And what about all the other stuff? What about the pomerium? We have a sacred boundary. Have you not noticed it’s a pretty big deal. We have all these rules about what you can and cannot do inside, outside that line. You know, there’s all these rituals that have to go with making it bigger. What are we going to do about that? How is that all going to work? How does that work if we just going to move posh? What about how the declaration of war happens? That has to do with the pomerium. It has to do with where people meet. It has to do with the curious Comitia. Okay, all the rules around them. How is that all going to happen? How the auspices going to be taken exactly as you highlighted so you and Camillus, you’re not as opposed to each other as you think. We’re in sync, yeah.

Dr G 54:35
Oh, I’m not opposed to Camillus. I just think that you know his story has been overblown

Dr Rad 54:39
for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, once again, Camillus tries to anticipate what the tribune is going to come back with, because they haven’t been allowed to say anything yet. It’s just the Camillus show. Still, he thinks his enemies will say, look, it’s not that we’re saying that all of this stuff that you’re highlighting isn’t valid, but we really have no choice. Rome is completely. Be unlivable. Veii is untouched because of the genius way that you managed to take it by that sneaky tunnel and then basically everyone just sort of gave up. Veii is in pretty much perfect, pristine condition. We just have no choice. We have to leave because, you know, what’s the alternative that we rebuild actually go into construction? I don’t think so. But Camilla sees this as just a sneaky excuse, because this question of moving some people to they had existed before the Gallic sack, so they’re just being opportunistic, and he sees through them. He has a completely different perspective to the tribunes. I mean, a more redundant sentence has never been said. He thinks the destruction is actually less reason to leave. Okay? He’s like, no, wait, it would be basically admitting that the goals have won. You know, we we’ve managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, if we were then to turn around and leave. Now we’re basically giving it right back to them. You know, we’re giving them what they wanted. We’re doing what they were aiming for. It just doesn’t make any sense. He says, Look, I may have massacred all the Gauls that I could see because I’m Camillus, but rumor has it that the Gauls are incredibly numerous. There might be more of them out there. In fact, he’s pretty sure there are. What if they came back? What if another Gallic group came back and found Rome deserted and decided, hey, why don’t we live here? This is a pretty cool place. I can’t believe some idiots just left it here for us to take over, and the Romans would then have to live with the knowledge that they allowed that. Yeah, they let the Gauls just move in, pull up a chair, put their feet up in front of a fire, and live in Rome. He can’t even think of

Dr G 56:55
it very dramatic now, so dramatic.

Dr Rad 57:00
And this is where he also highlights some people that you’ve been talking about. Let’s not ignore the fact that Rome has plenty of enemies that are actually quite close by, the Volscians, the Aequians. They’ve been fighting them for ages. Again, abandoning Rome itself would be just handing them Rome what they’ve been after for seemingly centuries. At this point that cannot be allowed to happen are the Romans seriously okay with all of these suggestions that Camillus has run through just because they can’t be bothered to do some building. It seems insane. Dr G,

Dr G 57:38
it does seem relatively insane, but you could also read this as being like the biggest doubling down argument of all time. It’s like we’ve been here, we got to stay here. We’ve been here, we got to stay here. You know it’s okay to cut your losses, Camillus, so you could move to the next hill over.

Dr Rad 57:56
Absolutely no, no, no, no, never. Camillus thinks it would be more honorable and a preferable situation overall for the Romans just to go back to their roots living in simple, very old fashioned huts, because at least then they’d be near their family deities. They’d be near all the sacred monuments they wouldn’t be. And I quote a nation in exile, which is exactly what they would be if they moved to Vay after all, the Romans had managed to build their city up relatively quickly. Is it really that hard to just do that again. If the Romans, who were their ancestors, could do it, surely, the Romans of his own day, the people that had conquered Veii in the first place, could do it. And let’s not forget that the Capitol and the Citadel, they are still in perfect condition, Dr G, thanks to those valiant defenders of Rome. So they have a good starting position, you know, and they have this really important part of the city this kernel preserved. So that’s something to give them a bit of hope and inspiration.

Dr G 59:10
Surely, I kind of like the idea that Camillus is giving this speech amidst the ruins of Rome, and everybody about him is like, but, buddy, just look at this place. It’s been destroyed.

Dr Rad 59:23
Well, he’s starting, he’s really starting to, he’s starting to lose me a little bit with this part here. Dr G, don’t worry. We are getting somewhat near the end. He then says, Okay, let’s say that I allowed this to happen. Okay, that myself and the very conservative patricians said, Okay, let’s move to they. Is this going to be the way that the Romans conduct themselves all the time? Is this the way you live your life? Fires, not uncommon. What if somebody didn’t watch their fire carefully enough and they caught. Poured on fire, really badly damaged, and Romans all moved there. Are they going to just get up and leave again if he allows them to leave this time? Is it just going to always be on to the next and better thing that hasn’t been burnt down, having no real attachment to where they live? Is this really how they want to live their lives? Do they really value just having, you know, a roof over their heads, more than places with actual meaning to their culture, to their people? Camillus himself, he Dr G values the land, the landscape of Rome. These were the things that he actually missed the most when he was in exile in aedea. It wasn’t the fancy temples, although they’re important because of the gods and all, but he really missed the landscape most of all, and that is something that you cannot transfer. You would miss that in Wow.

Dr G 1:01:02
Now, I mean, Camillus is, it turns out, is a romantic and I had no idea, but you know, his love for the landscape, his love for place, it’s like he’s just stepped out of an early 19th century novel.

Dr Rad 1:01:18
Well, this is where I could spoil it a little bit, even though we’re so close to the end, and say that Livy’s Probably borrowing a little bit from some Greek examples that exist where there are people who give these sorts of speeches about, you know, the beauty of the landscape and, you know, ties to soil and stuff In other sources that would have been available to him at this time.

Dr G 1:01:44
This is shocking news. I know Alert, alert. Tell everybody

Dr Rad 1:01:49
the fact that he’s using his probable education to put this all together. Shocking news, indeed, that’s it, Livy. It’s over now. He also says the gods of Rome and Rome’s ancestors had not just stumbled across this location by accident. It had been obviously deliberately chosen for good reason. It’s amazing. Have they not noticed all the natural advantages that come from this particular place, I mean, the Tiber, dr, G, do we need to actually say the Tiber in order to convince these plebeians to do the right thing? It’s so easy for transport, and they’re not right on the coast. So it’s not super easy for, you know, pirates just to come and raid their city. They’ve got a little bit of protection, and yet, still, the advantage of a river like the Tiber for transport the hills, the healthful Hills all around them. I mean, Rome is just clearly an awesome place. They keep being able to beat the Etruscans, the Volscians, the Aequians, their track record speaks for itself. He also then talks about other important religious moments which really should have already proved that the Romans can’t just get up and leave. And this is where I come to the head, Dr, G, and I hope we’re talking about the same head here.

Dr G 1:03:15
Ooh, well, we’re about to find out, aren’t we? This is

Dr Rad 1:03:19
where he reminds the Romans of the discovery of a human head on the Capitol. Now, was this the head you were referring to? Yes, the head nodding doesn’t fly on a podcast. I’m afraid

Dr G 1:03:33
I know Yes, so yes, definitely the head that is on the Capitol. So this severed head is found when the foundations for the Capitol line are dug up, and this idea is then translated in Roman understanding in that Rome will be the place that becomes the head of Italy itself. It becomes a symbolic thing. So this is part of an idea that goes back to really archaic Roman times, that this is the spot where the city needs to be. It’s not just about the birds that Romulus saw. It’s also about the physicality of this place. And that idea is also tied to, again, that idea of the sacred fire of Vesta, where the fire has to be in a certain location the Capitolini Hill, has revealed a severed head, which helps us to understand that the Capitolini is incredibly important and must be looked after at all costs. And it was during the Gallic sack even and really honing in on that idea that physicality is everything to the Roman definition. So it’s just reiterating the same point. And Camillus has been doing this in this speech as well. He’s really nailing it with all of these details. It’s like there’s no way we could do these things anywhere else. What could possibly happen? If we leave, it will be a disaster. That’s what will happen. Yes, everything about Rome is about here.

Dr Rad 1:05:05
Yes. And he, once again, brings up the flame of Vesta in connection to things like the head that was found on the Capitol. Again, it’s not something that can just be moved. The Goddess wants it where, if she wants it, he can’t just move it around. It’s not a candle, guys. So he goes through all these sorts of things, and he and I think he’s finally run out of examples, run out of steam. You’ll be relieved to know Dr G Camillus speech is finally over. He has convinced them with this plethora of examples of why Rome is the best. Nobody beats it. You can’t just move to Veii. So the Roman people agree with him, particularly the points about religion. That’s what’s really swayed them. Their whole relationship with the state gods, personal gods, it’s all very overpowering for them. So he has won the day. I’m sure you’re not surprised after the force with which he delivered that argument.

Dr G 1:06:01
You were channeling Camillus. But the real

Dr Rad 1:06:03
clincher came during a senate meeting. So they were debating things in the curio hostilia and some cohorts of Roman soldiers came back from guard duty. What are they guarding? I have to ask. I mean, it’s a city in ruins, the population, I suppose whatever’s left all that gold,

Dr G 1:06:22
yeah, that pile of wood over there that was burnt.

Dr Rad 1:06:25
Yeah, they happened to be traveling through the forum. When they reached the comitium, one of the centurions was heard to ask the standard bearer. So the standards are very important to the Romans. They’re not just a marker of, hey, this is this group of soldiers, they come to have, like a sort of spiritual significance for the Romans, so very important, he turns around and asks the standard bearer to place his standard down in that place which he refers to as the best place to remain. The Senate see this as an omen that the gods are trying to tell them where they should live. So they obviously still had, even though Livy says Camillus’ speech was so convincing, they’re apparently still talking about this point they have the doubt.

Dr G 1:07:08
Yeah, there are things to chat about here. It’s a debate, yes, so the

Dr Rad 1:07:12
Senate come flooding out after they’ve heard this incidental remark about the best place to remain, and they proclaim right there and then that this is the way they have been shown the way. And all the commoners who are just flocking about, they also join in the celebration, and they’re like, yes, yes, this is the way. They’re thrilled with the decision that the Senate has made that they’re going to stay in Rome, and this is when, in Livy’s account, Rome finally starts to be rebuilt. I guess while they’ve been debating, they’ve been doing nothing. They’ve just been living in the ruins. Nothing like animals.

Dr G 1:07:53
We can’t We can’t do anything until we’ve made a decision. Guys, hold off on the rebuilding. We’ve got to decide where we’re doing that. So don’t waste your time. This story also comes up in plutarch’s account. So he gives this sense that Camillus gives this rousing speech, although I haven’t looked into all of the details of whether he recounted the speech itself, because I was focusing on Diodorus instead of Plutarch here, but he does have the moment where Camillus hands the floor over to the first senator, where it’s like, okay, well, that’s my speech. How are you going to vote? And it’s this guy, Lucius Lucretius, who sees the standard bearer walk past, is given the command to put it in the best place. And that’s the thing that turns Lucius vote essentially where he’s like, Well, the gods have revealed that sign to us. I’m going with the gods. And that makes that brings all of this together, because Camillus is really emphasizing the divine aspect here, and Rome’s connection to place. All of a sudden, the standard, which, as you’ve mentioned, is a sacred object and does have a ritual significance about it as well, seeing it being placed right outside where the meeting is happening, and having a sense that that’s the best place for the standard. And it’s like, okay, we all need to do this. And once one guy votes a particular way, there is no secret ballots in Senate voting. Everybody’s then openly voting. And usually the weight of the first senator is quite significant, because they’re usually the oldest or the most prestigious, and it just flows from there. So Camillus gets the job done. They’re going to stay in Rome, absolutely.

Dr Rad 1:09:43
And as you say, the first senator, if that’s the account that Plutarch goes with, that makes total sense. I mean, that’s where Augustus kind of draws some of his influence from, as well. This idea of being the first man to speak, because once you’ve spoken, and you’re the person with the most auctoritus, probably the most experienced, therefore. Or and you’re probably an old gent, people are going to bow to the weight of your opinion, because you’re obviously someone who’s highly respected in the Roman community. His name is not specifically mentioned in my account, but certainly the idea is that Camillus has given a very convincing speech, and they’re just wrapping up the details, and then this omen is given. This is where Livy mentions something which most people find hilarious, which is that he says that this is why Rome is very higgledy, piggledy in his own day. He says, Yeah, look, Rome is a bit of a hot mess in my day, and that’s because of this. Basically we have the reference to the formal state rebuilding program. Again, very funny, if you think about it, given where we’re at in Rome’s history, we’ve got the tiles being provided. The people are told they can just help themselves to whatever stone and wood they need. But in Livy’s account, they are given a very tight deadline of just a year. We’ve got to rebuild this whole city in just a year, guys, because otherwise, this analytic way that Livy’s writing just isn’t gonna work. We want to move on from this whole scenario. You’ve got one year and so snappy. Guys keep it snappy. Yeah, it means that the streets become overcrowded. Things aren’t necessarily set up in the most logical way. They’re not carefully planning out exactly how the city should look. Afterwards, they’re just basically grabbing vacant land and being like mine, I’m going to build here. This is my spot. Finders keepers, losers, weepers. And therefore, by the time you get to Livy’s day, Rome is a mess. Pretty much no one believes this explanation at all for why Rome is overcrowded or not particularly well planned, it’s probably to do with the fact that Rome just expanded in a somewhat haphazard fashion, and people who live in Sydney can appreciate how that might happen to a city, and the influence of, say, the Greeks, with their ideas of City Planning, probably hadn’t really reached Rome before. The core of it had been set up in this kind of chaotic way, and yeah, it was just kind of left to develop from there.

Dr G 1:12:10
Yeah, it does not ring very persuasively in our source material to be like we told the people that it’s a state run rebuilding program, but we didn’t actually tell them where they could build. We just said, here’s some tiles. Knock yourselves out, and it’s been chaos ever since. Now. You would think if it was a state run system, that maybe they’d be more systematic, but apparently not. And I think there is something to be said for the fact that Rome is way too early in its history to have a coherent sense of its own organization, and that’s not the sort of thing that the Senate or the elites have ever been particularly across that’s a very bureaucratic way to think about city creation. And if we’re thinking about examples from Australia, Melbourne is a highly planned city, yes, but Melbourne was also not the city that was started first when Europeans decided to turn up and pretend that Australia was inhabited by nobody, they started in Sydney, and Sydney has a very organic structure to it. A lot of the streets follow the lines of the traditional owners, paths that they used. So we know that it’s not following a grid like structure. And certainly we live in a city that does not present any kind of grid most of the time. But Melbourne, for instance, really does. And that has both pros and cons. In terms of both cities, there are some elements of an organically grown city that really work, and there are some that really don’t. And Rome is very organic, even today, it is very organic structure about it, if you look at the maps. So Rome never gets over this. And even when it does become more organized under imperial rule, the chaotic aspects are never really going to go anywhere. I think this might be the spot to wrap up this episode.

Dr Rad 1:14:08
Now, I think this might be the way to wrap up. I wanted to get through Camila’s speech so I can finally put 390 BCE behind me. Put it to bed. Yeah, the one thing I will say before we wrap up is just highlighting, again, how much Livy is probably drawing from other writers in sort of his inspiration of putting this speech together. This is obviously a big set piece for him, because Camillus is his hero. He wants to show how pious Camillus is, and so this speech is a moment to really showcase that, as if his actions don’t speak loud enough. So as well as those Greek examples I mentioned which he might be borrowing for parts of the speech there, but people also think he might have been influenced a bit by Cicero in terms of the speech’s construction and that sort of thing. And one thing which I did find interesting in the commentary that I was looking at is this idea that the move to ve might have been something. Thing that was perhaps added in a bit later in the traditions around the Gallic sack. It might not have been something that existed from the beginning, even though you’d think they might go together, because obviously the fall of Veii and then the fall of Roma so close together chronologically. But it might have been something that was added in a little bit later. And one of the reasons, perhaps, that Livy goes down the path that he does is that during the late Republic, there was this period called the Social Wars, where there was fighting going on between within Italy, basically. And it was about a whole range of issues, which I won’t bother to go into in full detail here. Certainly it was a contentious time where it was people were trying to decide, obviously, who belong, who’s going to belong in this system, and who wasn’t, and who was getting rights and who wasn’t. And in this time period, part of the Roman response to this revolt by other Italians was to really dwell on the significance of the site of Rome itself, to try and emphasize that that was so important. Because, of course, as you can imagine, in a rebellion, the people who were not on their side trying to establish like a rival place, you know, and have a rival center that was going to be disconnected from Rome in their own special place. I guess, if you kind of imagine any civil war, like if you think about the north and the south and the US Civil War or whatever, you can kind of understand how all of a sudden, different places take on different meanings when you’ve got people who are suddenly divided, who were once living in relative harmony. And so it may be partly some of the traditions that were developed in that time that have somewhat influenced the speech that Livy devises for Camillus in this moment here.

Dr G 1:16:50
Very interesting, well, and that is just a really early teaser listeners for the Social Wars, which we will come to in 20 or 30 years?

Dr Rad 1:17:01
Yeah, exactly. It happened till the first century. So, yeah, don’t, don’t even think about it again. I’m just telling you. It was a conflict. It happened in Italy.

Dr G 1:17:11
So, but yes, there are, like, relative historical concerns in the Roman imagination about what it means to be Roman and to be in this space. And I think it’s quite reasonable that they would influence something like this, largely potentially created speech by Livy.

Dr Rad 1:17:29
And there was also apparently a suggestion by one of the Gracchi, I think of doing something with Carthage as well when Rome conquered that so there are influences that are probably coming through Livy’s account, because he’s writing so much later, but we can’t be sure exactly what. But yeah,

Dr G 1:17:49
oh, well, this has been a very interesting conversation.

Dr Rad 1:17:53
It is you can really see the differences in our accounts coming out in this time period. Because, yeah, all the stuff that you talked about is going to take me another several because this speech, this speech is there.

Speaker 1 1:18:07
I mean, yeah, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:18:08
Livy said you can’t move on. Dr, rad, not yet. I

Dr G 1:18:10
mean, Camillus wasn’t even in Rome, so. Dr, G, that means

Dr Rad 1:18:15
it is time for the partial pick.

Dr G 1:18:23
The partial pick, we are going to judge Rome against five criteria in which they could possibly win 10 gold Eagles if they perform very well. And our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 1:18:38
Who This is tricky, because your account does have some military action, yeah, but mine does not. We are

Dr G 1:18:45
full of military clout over here. If diodosticulus is to be believed, it’s just one battle after another, and Camillus is a blazing glory of victory.

Dr Rad 1:18:54
Well, I mean, do we? We went with Livy’s account last time and we gave him high points in certain categories because we were believing the account. I’m happy to do the same here, if you would like Excellent.

Dr G 1:19:04
Well, Camillus smashed it out of the ballpark, didn’t he? Not only did he take,

Dr Rad 1:19:09
how long I’ve waited for you to say this word,

Dr G 1:19:12
I mean, he took down the Volscians. He stopped the Aequians from doing some stuff in the South. He stopped the Etruscans from doing something in the North. He got back the gold. It’s basically a 10 out of 10.

Dr Rad 1:19:26
Let’s do it 10 out of 10 for the possibly equally problematic account of Diodorus. Say nothing.

Dr G 1:19:36
Say nothing. Our second category

Dr Rad 1:19:39
is Diplomacy. I don’t think so really. I mean, if we go with your account, it’s just warfare. If we go with my account, Camillus is basically talking the whole time, and no one’s responding.

Dr G 1:19:52
He is, and that’s not really diplomacy, because he’s just talking to other Romans. I think has to be a zero, dr, G, well, that’s that. Okay. Hmm, Expansion, nope.

Dr Rad 1:20:02
Well, in your account, I mean, they’re retaking a colony, but I when, when was it last? Not theirs? Wait, that doesn’t make sense.

Dr G 1:20:14
When are they How long have they had this colony?

Dr Rad 1:20:16
Yeah, like, how long has this

Dr G 1:20:18
been an issue? I don’t know. I don’t know, and I don’t think it’s really expanding to take something back, but it’s like, this place is like a hot potato, yeah, they’re just playing catch up on something that they thought was theirs. Yeah? Okay, so I feel like

Dr Rad 1:20:32
that we’re gonna give them nothing for it, or we’re just gonna give them, like, our point. I suppose we could give them our point. I feel like it matters, you know? I mean, I don’t think this is something that was taken by the Gauls, for example. So this is something that they’re legitimately retaking, re establishing control over. Yeah, yeah, all right, 1.1 point.

Dr G 1:20:53
Okay, Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:20:57
I don’t think so. Because even though Camillus says some impressive things in your account, there’s no like, particular moment where I’d say it’s weirdos, it’s more just impressive generalship. Yes, there’s no detail. Where’s the detail Diodorus?

Dr G 1:21:11
Yeah, then there’s no particular story where Diodorus Siculus goes into detail about a moment that Camillus has in battle. So and in your version of events, he’s really just having a bit of a chit chat that goes on for too long. So

Dr Rad 1:21:30
I’ll have you know, I’ve worked myself up into

Dr G 1:21:32
quite a sweat. I can see you fanning yourself, yeah?

Dr Rad 1:21:35
Oh my god, it’s so hot in Australia. Guys, it’s summer here when we’re recording this probably may come out to winter, but just, you know, we are sweating through it.

Dr G 1:21:43
Yeah, I’m very shiny on the screen, but yeah, hopefully I sound very calm, cool and collected on the audio.

Dr Rad 1:21:53
I actually can feel myself getting dumber as we’ve gone through this episode, because I’m getting so hot.

Dr G 1:21:58
Well, I’d hate to say it’s the Camillus rubbing off on you, but

Dr Rad 1:22:04
All right, so that’s a zero. Then for virtus as well,

Dr G 1:22:06
it’s a zero, yeah, the final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:22:10
I feel like we have something to work with here. Dr G, I feel like the military victories on your side, that’s got to be good for the citizens. And then on my side, they seem happy with Camilius’ decision, even though they were all totally prepared to just walk away and go to Veii at the beginning.

Dr G 1:22:28
Yeah, certainly in the accounts that I have read as well for this is once the decision comes through that there will be no moving to Veii, everybody just sort of is like, okay, and starts to chip in with the rebuilding process, and doesn’t cause much of a stink about it.

Dr Rad 1:22:43
Yeah, look, I mean, if you think back to the previous accounts, where we’ve had this question about they it was controversial. It’s not like all plebeians were on the side of going to Veii there definitely was division in the Roman population. So I guess they’re just tapping into that. They’re only convincing a certain amount of people, the rest of them were already kind of on their side. Yeah.

Dr G 1:23:05
So I mean, obviously it’s a good time for Roman citizens, in the sense that the Gauls have gone and it seems to be a good time, because regardless of how it has happened, they’ve either retained the gold or they’ve gotten back the gold, and they have decided to rebuild, which, I mean, is probably good for citizen morale. I would say

Dr Rad 1:23:27
they can rebuild her stronger, faster, exactly. So, yes, I agree with you. I feel like it’s going to be fairly high. You know, the matrons are honored as well. That’s pretty cool. So I don’t know. I mean but, but, but, but they have just lived through a siege, and they are allegedly living in a heap of rubble.

Dr G 1:23:47
Well, sure, but like, there’s living in a heap of rubble when there’s no enemy around, and then there’s still being under a siege, and surely the former has got to be better.

Dr Rad 1:23:57
Yeah, and look with Camillus back on the scene, people must be happy. So I feel like maybe like a six.

Dr G 1:24:04
Yeah, I was gonna say a seven. So I think we’re pretty

Dr Rad 1:24:08
I could go with seven. I could be persuaded to a seven. All right, all right. Dr, G, that means that the Romans have managed to accrue a grand total of 18 golden eagles, which was not expecting, given that I thought I was pretty much just going to be speechifying at you.

Dr G 1:24:26
Look, I enjoyed every moment. It was full of drama and Camillus iterated some points very delightfully. And, you know, there were Vestal Virgins, I can’t complain.

Dr Rad 1:24:37
Look, if we needed any convincing that Rome is awesome and that we should continue to podcast for the next 50 years so we can tell her history. I’m convinced Camillus has done the job. There is no place for us in the room.

Dr G 1:24:53
Yeah, we Yeah. Whenever there is a doubt, we will return to this speech as Camillus once said, Yes.

Dr Rad 1:25:00
Yes, there’s no place like Rome that might have to be the title of this episode.

Dr G 1:25:05
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure, as always. Thank you. Dr G,

Dr Rad 1:25:18
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of The Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive to find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi. But you can also support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to Jonathan Lance who joined our Patreon one year ago this month. However, if you are trying to rebuild your home after a barbarian invasion, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. Until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 171 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 6 appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

The sacred geese have attempted to save Rome, but the siege of the Gauls is still not over! What could possibly happen next? We continue our deep dive into the events purported to all take place in 390 BCE.

Despite the Romans apparently being surprised by the Gauls turning up on their doorstep, the Gauls have been in northern Italy for some time as far as we can trace archaeological evidence. Rumour has it that the Gauls came to central Italy in the search for cooler weather, but instead what they find is a city of Romans, and as the siege drags on, hygiene starts to emerge as a problem.

The siege is getting tedious for both sides, so amidst the military encounters, conversations start about maybe bringing the siege to a close through mutual agreement. The details of the siege consequences include lack of food, issues with cadavers, and spread of disease. And it seems neither the Romans or the Gauls want to keep going with this situation.

Those Gauls are pretty cheeky in the moment of coming to a monetary agreement to ensure they’ll pack up their siege and leave Roman territory. Not only do they ask for 1000 pounds of gold, but they have the nerve to add some extra items to the scales to encourage the Romans to pay even more than this sum. Perhaps even worse, are our sources really telling us a story of Rome resisting the Gauls, or could it be the case that ALL the city was taken and the Romans were legitimately and completely defeated? We explore the possibilities.

Is he in Ardea pumping out a training montage with the locals in preparation to swoop in and rescue Rome? Or is waiting in the wings but misses his cue to come on stage leaving Rome to deal with the Gauls all by themselves? Our sources have some disagreements which we’ll delve into.

OR

Our music is by the superb Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Lightly edited for our wonderful Australian accents

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:16
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:30
and I’m Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:01
And I’m Dr G, hello.

Dr Rad 1:04
This is going to be a tough one. I think Dr G, in more ways than one, because for listeners who might be listening at a different point in time, we are currently recording in the midst of an Australian summer as affected by climate change.

Dr G 1:24
It is a heat wave, a tropical heat wave.

Dr Rad 1:27
Exactly. We’re having a heat wave. That’s a Marilyn reference, in case you didn’t pick up on that one,

Dr G 1:35
I knew you would figure that one out.

Dr Rad 1:39
But not only that. Dr, G, of course, we are in a year that seemingly never ends. As far as ancient Rome is concerned,

Dr G 1:47
the hottest year on Roman history’s record 390 BCE

Dr Rad 1:52
Yeah, I knew it was going to be a big one, but it’s it’s even surprised me.

Dr G 1:57
We are many parts into this effective mini series on this year, and the last time we talked about this, there were some interesting moments. There was visitations down the Tiber, aided by cork

Dr Rad 2:13
visitations

Dr G 2:14
visitations. There were sacred geese, and boy did they honk. And there were some people thrown down off the top of what we think is the Capitolini Hill rather than the Tarpeian rock, although we can’t be entirely certain. And some Roman bodies end up amongst the Gaulish forces, it seems.

Dr Rad 2:34
Absolutely yeah. So we’re right in the midst of this Gallic siege of Rome. We’ve got this stalwart band of Romans who have remained behind to defend the Capitol and all the sacred buildings and animals, apparently, that reside upon it. And when the Gauls tried to assault them, it almost worked, not quite, and that’s where we got people being flung off rocks, etc, etc, etc, yes.

Dr G 3:07
So this siege, we think, has been going on for quite some time at this point, our sources suggest that it’s anywhere between six or seven months at this stage, and everybody’s really starting to feel the effects of it would seem. So Plutarch, who I would not consider a close source to the action at hand, nevertheless suggests that the Gauls themselves are running into some trouble engaging and maintaining this siege, partly because they lack provisions, but partly because, in an encamped situation for a long period of time, outbreaks of disease are quite common. It’s hard to keep up sanitary conditions when you’re in a place where you’ve kind of constructed everything from scratch, but it’s all kind of temporary. And they’re also encamped amongst ruins of Roman buildings. Effectively, in some parts of this siege area, there’s also a growing extent of corpses because they’re engaging in various raids. And obviously some people die in those and they haven’t seemed to have dealt with those bodies necessarily in the best way possible.

Dr Rad 3:07
Well that’s just gross.

Dr G 3:07
Some of them, they’ve been able to cremate, but seems some of them, they haven’t, so they’re also amongst the dead at the same time. So this would be pushing disease outbreaks as well. But the worst thing of all, according to Plutarch, is that the Gauls came from a cool place, and as we know, one of the theories that brought the Gauls into Italy is that they were looking for somewhere even cooler. But boy, were they wrong, because Italy is hot, and even in autumn, apparently, when this siege is still continuing, it’s still quite hot, and they are unhappy campers about the weather.

Dr Rad 4:56
I could not feel more simpatico with the Gauls than right now recording this ridiculous Australian heat. God, I hope we do something about climate change so it doesn’t get any worse. Because I was going to make fun of this whole scenario and say, this sounds like anti-Gallic propaganda in a sense, where they’re like, they can’t function when it’s hot, when it gets above 35 degrees celsius, they just completely melt, like the Wicked Witch of the West. But then I’m like, You know what? I don’t think I function particularly well, when I get too hot. Mind you though.

Dr G 5:32
Yes, now, now, it comes down to it. Yes.

Dr Rad 5:36
They have been in Italy for a bit of time at this point. But maybe it’s because this is one of their forays more into, you know, central Italy, whereas when they started crossing the Alps, which I mean at this point, the Gauls are meant to have been crossing the Alps for a couple of hundreds years, like we think it starts around sort of 600 BCE, that we start getting Gallic peoples on the move and coming into Italian territory, but I think they have tended to stay further north, which for anyone who’s been to Italy, it is a bit of a different climate to other parts of the country.

Dr G 6:17
Very much so, much cooler, maybe more delightful if you’re you prefer the wintertime, but now they’re in central Italy and doesn’t agree with them, not not in their constitution. It would seem, physically, they’re having a tough time.

Dr Rad 6:32
Yeah, no. Look, this is what Plutarch has said. Is very much what Livy says. He says, look, the siege is obviously terrible because the goals aren’t making the headway that they need. They weren’t necessarily planning on this whole situation. It was somewhat foisted upon them. If we had to leave our accounts by the Romans, terrible behaviour.

Dr G 6:52
That’s right, you can’t deny an insult like that and just walk away,

Dr Rad 6:56
Even if we say like, whether we say it was the insult which, let’s face it, most people don’t think that that was probably what happened, or whether we say the Gauls were actually on their way somewhere else, maybe to do something particular, like serve as auxiliaries, or something like that. Either way, they haven’t planned for a lengthy siege, so they don’t, as you say, have all the provisions that they need. The Romans are certainly feeling it because they’re really lacking in provisions, because they can’t really leave the capital to get anything, and they just up there, God knows what kind of exercise they’re getting. Dr G, and this is exactly when, yes, a pestilence hits. Livy also mentions where the Gauls had set up their camp, that because it was low ground between hills, and there was also, like, polluted air, I guess in his in his mind, you know, because they’ve torched so many beautiful Roman buildings that barbarians, it’s just not good. And he also mentions the the corpses, and the fact that they kind of had tried to dispose of some bodies they’ve made, like, mass burial pyres. But when it comes to people who’ve maybe died just, you know, randomly and like a little siege, they’re kind of like, it’s just one body. I don’t know if I can be bothered sitting on fire.

Dr G 8:15
Bad choice. Bad choice. At least bury it.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. And so this is what drives the Gauls to seek out the Romans and to try and enter, introduce get some talks going, see what they can sort out here.

Dr G 8:33
Yes, this is an interesting moment, because it seems like the siege actually becomes a bit of a fizzer, and it’s like the Gallic sack of Rome, and here we are, and everybody’s tired, and we’re months into it, and the Gauls are like, we kind of want this to be over. And the Romans like, we’d like this to be over too. And the Gauls are like, how about you give us 1000 pounds of gold.

Dr Rad 8:53
Oh, well, it gets a little bit heated before we get to that point in my account. Dr, G, there’s a little detail in mind that I particularly like, which is that the commanders on both sides are obviously talking trying to figure things out, and I guess to drive home that they were in the stronger position in this siege situation, the Gauls start making fun of the Romans and mocking them for the fact that they’re literally starving to death in front of their eyes, which, after, say, six or seven months, I can understand. And they’re like, surely the Romans should just give in. I mean, you’re clearly going to die from starvation if we don’t kill you first. Now this is not the way that you negotiate with the Romans, as we know. Dr G, it’s not going to get them on side. It riled them up so much that they started, apparently, throwing bread down from the Capitol towards the Gallic camp being like that’ll show them. We rain down bread upon you. We’re not starving to death. We’re strong, stronger than we’ve ever been. Whoa. I think I’m feeling a little woozy from the lack of food. Phew.

Dr G 8:54
First of all, the Gauls are like, is this the hill that you’re willing to die on? And the Romans are like, yes, it is.

Dr Rad 8:54
Yes, the Capitol is the best.

Dr G 8:54
This is the the exact hill that I’m willing to die on. And not only that, it doesn’t seem in any way strategic to be like, how about you guys have some of the bread. We’re having a tough time, but you’re gonna have it tougher because you can’t handle this level of gluten.

Dr Rad 8:54
That’s right, yeah, exactly. We know how you guys are. You can’t handle the food here. You can’t handle the climate here. Get outta here.

Dr G 8:54
Yeah, good luck with this bread. The Gauls are like, I will eat it.

Dr Rad 8:54
My commentator believes that this little tidbit that Livy includes might have been something that’s trying to explain a development of the cult of Jupiter Pistor, which is the story that turns up in some other sources like Valerius Maximus, Ovid, etc, etc.

Dr G 8:54
Lovely.

Dr Rad 9:41
Well, I mean, this is the thing about the way that our stories are coming together at this point in time, as we’ve talked about, Livy’s drawing on multiple things. He’s using earlier analysts. He’s also using, probably family histories that have been passed down. They might be oral stories. They might be oral stories that became something that was written down or preserved in some other way. He’s using archeological sources like inscriptions, etc, etc. But one of the things that might be influencing him is this antiquarian tradition as well, where the Romans are obviously trying to explain all sorts of details about their culture, and that’s particularly flowering at the time that Livy’s writing probably because Rome has undergone such a troubled century in the sort of late Republic and early Empire, the Romans seem to have been inspired to figure out their origins, to find out, why do we call it that place name, and, where did that cult come from? And how do we explain this building or this monument? And sometimes they might have come up with things at some point to try and explain why something is the way it is. And obviously it’s really hard for us to trace exactly how strong their evidence is for these stories. They’re coming up with another example of that is the story that we talked about last time about the crucifixion of the dogs, which happened every year, obviously, with the whole thing with the geese and the dogs and the assaults on the Capitol, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you need to go back and listen again. It’s one of those things where it’s obviously a tradition that has survived. But is this really what happened? Is this really why the Romans had this cultural practice, or is this something that’s been woven into the account of the Gallic sack to try and explain a custom that people have kind of lost track perhaps, of exactly why they do what they do?

Dr G 12:56
Yeah, fair enough. There is a sense in which the Romans are definitely trying to figure out what their identity is like, and this is a landmark event in their imagination, at the very least, because we don’t have a lot of archeological evidence to back up.

Dr Rad 13:12
We certainly don’t

Dr G 13:13
This Gallic sack and so even this idea of a Gallic invasion that moves so far down into Central Italy is difficult to navigate from an evidential perspective as ancient historians, and the significance of this tale for the Romans is huge.

Dr Rad 13:32
Absolutely.

Dr G 13:33
There’s so much detail. This is why we’re in part five of this narrative, because they do focus in on every moment, and this idea that eventually, what it sort of boils down to is this embarrassing exchange where Rome gives up, essentially.

Dr Rad 13:59
Yeah.

Dr G 14:00
They do, they do pay the money to the Gauls. And even though both sides are looking a little worse for wear and neither are having a good time, there does seem to be a recognition from those who remain on the Capitol that they cannot stick this out, that if this does go on, ultimately they will be the losers from it. They’re not sure whether any of their neighbours are going to turn up with forces. What has happened with the messages from they has not necessarily resulted in something positive or tangible that they’ve been able to see. And there is still the looming figure of Camillus, who is in exile, and nobody really knows where he is, and nobody knows if he’s ever turning up. And even if he did, would he have any forces with him?

Dr Rad 14:42
Well, of course, at this point, they have sought him out. They’ve tried to go through the proper processes in my account, because for Livy, at this point in time, it’s the Camilla show. We know that, as you say, this story is such a big part of the way that the Romans imagine their history by the time people like. Livy were writing the traditions around it had been fairly well established. The narrative had been fairly well established. However, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t obviously these differences in exactly how the story unfolds. And certainly Livy works Camillus in in a very particular way, and he constructs the whole of his first 10 books kind of around Camillus, particularly now that we’re into this, this later period here we’re talking about, you know, books sort of five to 10, and 10 is where we unfortunately lose the detailed Livy for a little while. But yes, Camillus is a big part of that. And exactly as you say in my account, the Romans pelt the Gauls with bread, feel good about themselves and like that’ll show them. But then they turn to each other and they say, but I’m actually really, very hungry. Really, really hungry. I don’t know how much longer I can last. And you know what? I think we just used up the last of the bread to make an emphatic point, yeah.

Dr G 15:59
Do we have any grain stores on hand? No, we don’t.

Dr Rad 16:03
No, I think maybe, maybe I might have let my temper get the best of me.

Dr G 16:12
Rome – never!

Dr Rad 16:15
And meanwhile in Livy’s account, this is where we flash to what’s going on in Ardea, because that is where Camillus is in exile. Camilius-

Dr G 16:24
and now for a new chapter,

Dr Rad 16:25
Yeah. Now that Camillus has managed to have his proper appointment where he’s been properly selected as dictator, he’s getting into action. So he’s conducting a levy. He’s also selected a master of the horse, naturally, a guy called Lucius Valerius, and he’s asking him to bring his army from Veii meet Camillus in Ardea, I presume. Camillus is then starting to train the troops – Drill, baby drill! This is the time he wants to make sure that they’re going to be able to kick some Gallic ass. Yeah, gun show. Mwa Mwa.

Dr G 17:04
It’s time for a training montage.

Dr Rad 17:05
It is, yeah, it very much is. It’s a point where, if we could afford it, we would play Eye of the Tiger. He’s got them punching meat in butchers shops, in the animal warehouses. He’s got them in gray, sweatpants. They’re running up and downstairs.

Dr G 17:22
It’s all happening. Yeah, look, I don’t want to ruin Livy’s show just yet, but I’m just going to put a flag here to say that the stories that Dr Rad is about to tell you from Livy are highly contentious.

Dr Rad 17:36
Whoa, I can’t believe you’re throwing me under a bus in front of the listeners. Dr, G, they’re watching. They’e listening.

Dr G 17:45
Just putting it out there. Listen carefully. Listen well. Warning. Warning.

Dr Rad 17:50
Sorry. It’s very confusing, because we’re kind of video recording this as well as audio recording this. So I’m like, I don’t know who to address. Do I address YouTube? Do I address people who have just got me in their areas? I don’t know. Okay, so back in Rome, we’re switching back. Okay, we’ve gone from the butcher storehouse to Rome. So the army on the Capitol really is at their absolute lowest at this point in time. They are well worn down, not so much from fighting the Gauls, just just doing their regular duties that they have to do, which I presume means, you know, standing guard being centuries and presumably helping each other out to keep life turning as well as it can up there on the Capitol, because we know that some of them have family out there. It’s not just fighting men there and then obviously the level of starvation, that old chestnut, of which I’m sure it’s much worse by the bread display earlier, they are desperately wanting to hold out until Camillus shows up, because that’s the plan, as far as they’re concerned. You know, Camillus has been made dictator. They’re watching. They’re waiting. And nothing happens. There’s just nothing on the horizon. They don’t know what Camillus is up to. They unfortunately can’t hear ‘Eye of the Tiger’ from the Capitol, Ardea is just a little bit too far away, and so they’re almost getting to the point where they’re too weak to even wear armour when they’re on the lookout. They are at that level of starvation, which actually does sound pretty somber and terrible.

Dr G 17:50
That’s bad.

Dr Rad 17:50
Yeah. No surprises. So the Romans are starting to discuss, what are we going to do in terms of surrender? How do we handle this whole situation? Do we literally just surrender? You know, get us the whitest piece of fabric that we have left after being up here on the Capitol for seven months and wave it. Or do we do something like, say, ransom ourselves to the Gauls. The Gauls had said that they weren’t necessarily like looking for a lot in order to bring this whole situation to the end. Because, as we talked about, it’s not like the Gauls are having a fabulous time either. This isn’t like ‘Roman Holiday’ here. So the Senate have a meeting, naturally, process, process, yes, and they say to the military tribunes with consular power that are up there, look, just, just organise some terms. Have a meeting and somehow organising this, this can’t go on much longer, so a meeting is set up. A guy called Quinctius Sulpicius, one of our military tribunes, meets with the so called leader of the Gauls Brennus. Suspicious name, but sure, here we are, and this is where, in my account, the Romans agree to pay 1000 pounds of gold. Livy, at this moment is like, I’m wigging out, guys, this is crazy. Rome is about to become the greatest empire ever, and here they are on their knees agreeing to pay these barbarians. I mean, how hilarious and ironic, right? Guys, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Yeah.

Dr Rad 19:22
It is an interesting moment for the Romans where they’re like, okay, not only is that an outlandish sum to ask of us, but yes, we’re going to pay it. And we have Quinctius Sulpicius, as you mentioned, is the military tribune who’s sort of leading the conference with Brennus. And they agree that they’ll deliver that gold, and then the Gauls will depart, not just away from Rome, the city, but out of Roman territory. They’re just, they’re just gonna leave everything.

Dr Rad 20:08
Which sounds extensive, but isn’t really that.

Dr Rad 20:08
It means they have to get past right at the very least, I’ve got to go, at least, keep going, get out in here, it’s going to be at least a day’s walk. And this is where we start to get the stories about the interference with the scales.

Dr Rad 20:31
Yes.

Dr G 20:31
So the Gauls are like, you know what’s going to be fun if we just keep piling things on our side of the scales? And the Romans are like, what are you what are you doing? We’re weighing out a precise measure. You can’t just keep adding things to the scales.

Dr Rad 20:31
It’s 1000 pounds, not like, whatever pounds.

Dr Rad 20:31
Yeah, and the Gauls are like, we might be hungry and willing to leave, but we still got a sense of humour. And if you want us to leave, we’re just going to add this little extra piece to our side of the scale and be like, oh, well, that’s that’s not 1000 pounds of gold. The Romans are like, you’ve got to be kidding me.

Dr Rad 20:54
Yeah. And when the Romans try and point this out in my account, this is a very dramatic moment where the military tribunes say, I’m very sorry to be that guy. But I couldn’t help but notice that the mathematics of this situation, they just don’t seem to be 100% correct. I think you might be asking for more than 1000 pounds of gold, and this is where a Gallic soldier rips out his sword, throws it on the pile where they’re stacking up all their stuff to skew the weights, and says “Woe to the conquered”, which is a fancy way of saying tough titties, guys, we get to call the shots around here.

Dr G 20:59
Yeah, this idea of this phrase that variously translated as “Woe to the conquered”, “Woe to the vanquished”, and the Gauls basically standing there at this moment of a peace treaty being like some of these ones.

Dr Rad 23:52
Dr G is giving me two fingers up for those listening in audio format only.

Dr G 23:58
And this phrase passes into Latin proverb, it becomes a thing that they say to each other.

Dr Rad 24:03
It does. Well, and this, it’s no wonder the Romans go back to this supposed moment, because it’s obviously deeply shameful that not only was their city taken, not only did the Gauls steal a bunch of their stuff and set a bunch of their buildings on fire, allegedly, not only did they massacre the elderly patricians, senators, whatever you want to call them, and not only have they continued to siege for a number of months, but they haven’t been able to get themselves out of this situation, and now they’re actually having to pay to get these guys to go. I mean, I can’t really imagine much of a lower point for the Romans at this moment in time.

Dr G 24:45
This is a huge low point. I don’t think Rome has ever been so low. I put it to you because from the very beginning, they’ve been on a upwards trajectory with some little bumps in the road, admittedly. But always quite quickly back to an upwards trajectory, and this, this is a massive blow. Most of their population doesn’t seem to be in the city. It’s limited in supplies. They’re at their wits end. They don’t think they’ve got any help coming. If they know about Camillus, which is not clear from my source material that they do, then they really are having to make the best decision that they can for their own survival under terrible circumstances, and they’re just really lucky that the Gauls agree to go away for a sum of cash, because, I mean, any other enemy in central Italy at this time, and Rome has a few of them would probably not have gone, yeah, give us some cash and we’ll go.

Dr Rad 25:48
Yeah, well, and that, I think, shows the fact that the Gauls aren’t necessarily here because they want to establish, like a permanent settlement themselves in this particular location. I think that’s why they’re happy to accept this money. Apparently, in order to go away, they’re interested in having portable wealth. And this is, this is part of the narrative that we’re given about why Gauls are on the move at this time, they are looking for more land. They’re looking for more goods. And so with them being so far south at this point in time, they probably do want stuff that they can carry – cash and carry only, thank you very much. And that might explain some of the archaeology, the fact that we don’t find a huge conflagration in the in the records when we sort of dig down deep enough, there is evidence of a great fire that probably was fairly destructive, but it’s just not the right time period. And even though we might be a few years off here with the Gallic siege, obviously, people sort of speculate it happened sort of between 390 and sort of 387 386 because of the differences in dating. But it’s definitely at around this time that this supposedly happened, this encounter. So the dating is just off. It would make sense if the Gauls were more interested in stealing things, because that wouldn’t leave any trace in the archaeological records for us to see, and it explains why, in spite of the fact that the Romans think that the Gauls set most of their city on fire, there are, in fact, still buildings and inscriptions and statues that predate the Gallic sack of Rome standing hundreds of years later into Livy’s time.

Dr G 27:24
I think there’s also something to be said for the way that the authors of the sources that we’re able to access have particular ideas about the Gauls because of Rome’s engagement with Gallia in the first century BC as well. So there’s a very particular picture that has been built up about what Gallic people are like on the basis of things like Caesar’s campaigns in Gaul and so for a Roman writer like Livy and even for a Greek writer like Didorus Siculus, there is a sense in which there is a pre-established idea about what Gallic people are like. They’re a raid and plunder kind of people. They are not about firm sort of settlements, necessarily. They’re more about moving and raiding and being able to pick up and be on the go if they need to. And those kinds of ideas, I think, are partly what is feeding into this narrative as well, because the Romans don’t conceive of the Gallic people as a people that would want to stay in Italy, even though, historically, they’ve been in the northern parts of Italy for a few centuries already, and they got to have lived somewhere.

Dr Rad 28:49
Hey

Dr G 28:50
They’ve probably put down some roots.

Dr Rad 28:52
It’s well beyond where the Romans are at this point in time. Northern Italy, what’s that? Now, this is where I’d like to do a bit of a tangent, if I may. Dr, G, I mean, I know, I know, I’m making this series even longer, but I have been doing a bit of extra reading around these accounts, because it’s so complicated, picking apart the slightly different narratives that we get and the details that we get. And as we say, we’re dealing with this thing where we’ve got this very epic, detailed narrative history, and yet at the same time, we’re kind of like, did this happen though, Livy, did it? I have some questions, exactly, so I’m going to put it to you. Dr G, where the hell did this 1000 pounds of gold come from?

Dr G 29:35
Well, I would say if it came from anywhere, it’d have to be the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, because that’s on the Capitolini hill. Otherwise, not sure.

Dr Rad 29:47
Yeah, and this is exactly the problem. This is something that one of the academics I read has delved into. If you’d like to read the article, please check out our show notes. They have tried to figure out, okay, so where’s the money coming from? Because in our different accounts, we’re given slightly different details, which probably reflects the particular perspective of the person writing. So the account that we get of this whole galaxy each of course, is that most Romans have left by the time the Gauls arrive. You know they the Romans are defeated at the Alia. They know things aren’t going well for them. They’ve scattered. We know that a lot of the population has therefore left the city. The whole idea is you just have this band of fighting men and a couple of extras who are left behind, and then, of course, the older gentlemen who are all sorted so they don’t count.

Dr G 30:37
Yeah, anybody who reasonably could go has gone.

Dr Rad 30:41
Yes, exactly. And we know that because this was seen as such a monumental moment for Roman history. Obviously, this is a story that was told and retold, and, you know, we slightly reworked over time, depending, I guess, on what the Romans needed to sort of get out of it, I suppose. So, what this person has actually suggested is that what we’re witnessing here was, in fact, a total Gallic capture of Rome. So the entire city is taken. It’s not this situation where some of the buildings are set on fire, but then the girls say, You know what? We’re going to leave you just a tiny little bit of hope so that you’re going to pierce the ransom and leave some of the buildings, etc, etc.

Dr G 31:20
I like that one, leave it.

Dr Rad 31:23
I think this is a total takeover. And then we have to figure out where are the assets coming from? Because we only have this tiny group who are left behind and starving to death. Where are they coming up with 1000 pounds of gold? Now, in Livy’s account, he is very particular that they do not use temple treasure in the ransom.

Dr G 31:43
Oh, well, that’s a problem that’s my one source.

Dr Rad 31:49
Well, the reason being, of course, and this feeds into the other things I’ve been telling you, Livy is all about protocol at this point in time. You know, the Romans have got themselves into this situation, apparently, because of their lack of attention to the signs that the gods are sending them there, they got off balance with the gods. They weren’t doing things properly, not pious enough. And so now they’re in this situation. And once they’re in this situation, when the chips are down, they’re doing everything by the book. So even when they’re besieged, they’re like, We have to go through the proper procedures to appoint a dictator. Guys, can’t just wait for someone to come in on a white horse. You know how we feel about white horses, especially if there’s more than one of them, we really got to make sure we do everything properly. You know, cross every T, dot every I.

Dr G 32:36
You know what? In our alternative history, it’s really fortunate that Camillus isn’t around, actually, because he would have talked them into giving over the temple treasure, and then it would have all gone downhill from,

Dr Rad 32:47
I don’t know, I don’t know if he would. He’s such a pious guy, it’s all very confusing. But anyway, in Livy’s account, it’s not the temple treasure, okay? Because that would be, obviously, it’s, I suppose, slightly offensive to the gods, you know, not perhaps exactly the picture he wants to paint at this point in time. And so it’s just state gold. I mean, I guess it’s possible that they just have some state gold with them, because, as I constantly point out, when discussing climate change, you can’t eat money, so you may as well use your money to fix the situation around. But yeah, so maybe they do, I suppose, have some state gold. They don’t have quite enough, and this is where Roman matrons apparently chip in some of their gold in order to make up the balance. This will come back to later, and it’s because of the Roman citizens pulling together, uniting, showing what Rome is all about, showing off those values that they’re able to make up the account. In other accounts, it absolutely is temple treasure that is used. However, we also have to question exactly the nature of this temple treasure, because, of course, we know that a lot of valuable objects have been taken. We had that whole story, Dr G about the Vestals fleeing in a cart meant for a family, and they’re far, far away, and they’ve buried some of the treasure as well, so they don’t have access to everything at this point in time, even Varro, who is one of these antiquarians we were talking about before, who we only have snippets of, he is one of the sources that we have that mentions that temple treasures were used, but also jewelry donated by Roman matrons.

Dr G 34:31
Look, it wouldn’t surprise me if they’re scrounging for every piece of gold that can get their hands on. Really, they’re confined to the Capitoline hill, so that immediately limits their physical accessibility to storage. So it’s either temples or if they do have a physical structure that houses the public treasury at this point, which is when I’m not sure archaeologists, please weigh in and let us know. Did they have a public treasury building at this point? Was it on the Capitoline? If yes, we can all start to make sense of this. But turning to the people themselves seems the ultimate answer to this as well, because once you’ve depleted all of the publicly accessible wealth, what do you do next? If you’re still falling short, and this is a very specific figure that we’ve been given 1000 pounds of gold is a massive amount to ask, and it’s the kind of round figure that that feels questionable, like many of the round figures that we get from ancient sources, but it’s obviously designed, from a literary perspective, to give us a sense of the overwhelming nature of what the Gauls require in order to go away, to perhaps lessen Roman shame around this idea that they had to capitulate, that it was a capitulation that was substantial enough to make sense, that they they did it, and it was possible, and it allows them maybe to save some face there. But I think it’s really, it’s a really interesting question that this scholar has asked, like, what gold?

Dr Rad 36:09
Follow the money

Dr G 36:10
Like where? Yeah yeah yeah. And it’s hard to follow the money when we have so little understanding of what’s going on in that archaeological record.

Dr Rad 36:19
Well, yeah, the more they pulled these threads, the more I was like, Oh, my God, they’re totally right. Because not only have all the Romans gone, not only have they apparently removed a lot of the valuables for safe keeping, the Gauls have then plundered all the rest of the parts of the city, apart from the capital. So it’s not like the Romans can sneak out and get their little piggy bank from their house that they left behind. It’s all gone.

Dr G 36:42
Although maybe that’s exactly what they did. I mean, we had that priest who snuck down into the forum…

Dr Rad 36:48
Not snuck he just walked out. He was just like, out of my way. I’ve got a ritual to perform.

Dr G 36:52
But if he could get away with that, maybe everyone’s like, you know what? I’m just gonna do a quick, sneaky run to my house. I’ll be back.

Dr Rad 36:59
I’m now come back, bring a Gallic warrior with like a spear held above somebody’s head, as a Roman, you know, pulls aside like a fresco, and it’s like, yeah, getting into their wall safe.

Dr G 37:10
Exactly. It was like, I know where the family jewels are hidden. I’ll be back, guys. Give me five minutes.

Dr Rad 37:15
I think this is the way this scholar is sort of imagining it. So basically, to preserve Rome’s dignity, as you were talking about, we have this scenario where they have at least managed to keep the Gauls off the Capitol, and even though that it’s extremely shameful to enter into these negotiations, have to pay the Gauls to go away, at least the Gauls, in this narrative, didn’t take the Capitol. You know, it was all protected. This scholar, I think, is suggesting that’s actually not the case. Everything was taken, and this is why the Romans find themselves in this scenario. And of course, they actually probably don’t have the resources. And if everything was taken, then maybe we are actually dealing with a ransom situation. Because if we think about that particular institution of Rome, the patron-client relationship, which, whilst we can’t obviously be 100% sure exactly how it played out at this point in time, it is a constant. We know it existed at this point in time, there would have been an obligation to help out. If you could, you know, call on your clients, or, you know, you know, call on your patrons. There’s an obligation there to help each other out. And so it’s possible that what actually happened in this scholar’s imagination is that the Romans are calling on outside sources, maybe even other cities. So like Caere has come up in our narrative, we know that Rome is going to, after all this is over, have a special relationship with Caere because they, you know, they were real, a real pal, a real solid friend in Rome’s time of need. And maybe this is indicative of a role that Caere played that has not made it into the narrative in the most accurate way, perhaps that you know the reason why the Romans have this sense of obligation to them, and with so many Romans sort of spread in the surrounding area, this scholar sort of highlighted that it would have been potentially possible to call on these outside sources To deal with this ransom situation, and it would explain why Livy can’t exactly pinpoint for us, where have these state funds been hidden this entire time? What’s going on with, you know, the matrons? You know, not, not even all the patricians, are in Rome. It’s not like, we’re talking about, like all the rich guys stayed behind to fight. No, they didn’t. It’s just a select group of people, so it’s just a question of, yeah, it doesn’t seem likely that they’re going to have everything that they possibly need, particularly if they are completely under Gaelic control, and the capital was potentially actually seized. At this point in time?

Dr G 40:01
Yeah, definitely. And thinking back to earlier accounts of this same situation, we know that even though some of the women stayed that the men weren’t happy about that, they thought they were just going to be a burden.

Dr Rad 40:18
Well, women can’t fight or do anything useful!

Dr G 40:25
Not from a Roman perspective, but maybe they were making the bread. Goodness knows, if I was a matron who had finally made some bread and then my fellow men had thrown it off the Capitoline, I mean, I would be ropeable.

Dr Rad 40:43
Talk about the mental load.

Dr G 40:46
And so even in the context where I think this is a nice, also a literary echo, the idea that the matrons are giving up their jewelry, because this is referencing another moment in history a couple of centuries later.

Dr Rad 40:59
Yes, well, we’ve had this happen before, not that long ago as well, like where matrons have given up, yeah, yeah.

Dr G 41:05
And again, probably that one also maybe a literary echo.

Dr Rad 41:09
You ruin everything, Dr G.

Dr G 41:12
And this idea that in in times where Rome is really in strife, that it’s actually the women who come forward and do the thing that needs to be done in order to get things across the line. And so Rome has this sort of ongoing narrative about itself, where, when it when push comes to shove, it is the matrons who stand up, and it makes all of their narratives around women being unhelpful or not useful, not in their place, blah, blah, blah, or the misogyny incredibly infuriating, because every time the Roman men have ruined it to the point where it’s not working anymore, those women stand up and say, fine, you know what? I’ll get us out of this.

Dr Rad 41:58
I’m getting a big scenario here. Okay, so these starving Roman men have just pelted Gallic soldiers underneath with the remaining bread that they have left. And then they turn around, their anger kind of disappears, and they’re like, What are we going to do now? And there are some women just sitting there on a couch, and they’re like, Well, who needs my help now, boys?

Dr G 42:25
Exactly – every time Roman women come through.

Dr Rad 42:28
Now, there is a detail that this scholar has highlighted, which I actually probably would have missed, because there’s a bit of a gap. We’ll come to it later, but there is a bit of a gap in between this moment and when this reference comes up in a few years, when we get to another moment involving our hero of the Capitol, Marcius Manlius Capitolinius, he’s going to become a real douchebag in a few years. And when he is being a douchebag, he makes reference to the fact that the patricians are somehow hiding the Gallic gold, and they’re somehow abusing public funds. And it’s thought that this could be a reference to the fact that it is definitely the plebs that have managed to escape with all their movable wealth, which might be more than usual, because, of course, we’ve just had the conquest. They things have been going relatively well for Rome. So who knows what the plebs managed to escape with? Who knows what they’ve got in Veii. But these people who have pitched in to pay this ransom, if they are indeed from outside of the city at this moment in time, they then obviously want that money to be accounted for in the aftermath of this ransom being paid. And there’s this very brief reference that sort of indicates that Livy knows, or at least he’s repeating something, and maybe he hasn’t even picked up on, you know, the significance of what he’s sort of saying here, but that there is something else that’s gone on here that’s been kind of concealed in his original narrative.

Dr Rad 42:29
Wow. Look like I said earlier. I think Livy’s account has some question marks over it, so…

Dr Rad 43:58
Well it does, because, of course, one of the things we’re going to get into in the aftermath, and I’m sorry to give this away, but there is going to be disputes about land, as we’re going to go back to that old chestnut in a few years. And it’s possible that one of the reasons why this pops up is because the plebs contributed to saving Rome in this moment. And therefore, when we’re talking about distributing land, which, of course, is a form of wealth, a base of wealth, and particularly in this sort of society here, that there is something to do with this moment of crisis in terms of why they feel perhaps they have a stake in what’s going on going forward after this particular moment. Definitely, I think it makes sense to raise all these sorts of questions, and we’re about to get to this moment in my account, and I’m sorry again for spoilers, because I don’t want to ruin the drama here, but I sort of have to highlight it now. I have no choice, Dr G, Camillus is going to show up in my account whilst this is all happening. Okay, this is where he makes his heroic return.

Dr G 45:17
Agent of chaos – back on the scene.

Dr Rad 45:19
Yeah, absolutely. And he’s going to set everything to rights. Don’t you worry. Dr G, here he comes to save the day. But it’s possible that the Gauls are the ones that actually get screwed over here. So we have this account, obviously, where the Gauls are being tricksy, because, you know, that’s what they’re like. Where’s their code of honour? But what if it’s actually the other way around, and Camillus showing up here? Maybe Camillus is showing up to make the payment, or maybe there’s, maybe there’s a band of Romans showing up to make the payment, and then they get all tricksy.

Dr G 45:59
I’m going to hold on to to what I’ve said earlier, which is that there was at least one other scholar in my corner who says Diodorus Siculus has the most accurate account of the stuff that’s going on.

Dr Rad 46:12
Look, I have read such things, even though it seems ludicrous.

Dr G 46:16
And the thing is that Camillus is in no way involved in the Gallic siege, beginning to end. He’s not there. He’s just not there, and he turns up not only after the Gauls have left, so they’ve received their payment and keeping to their word, although winking and laughing to themselves as they go, being like, wasn’t that a bit of fun. As they exit stage left, the Volscians enter stage right. And it is only when the Volscians have turned up being like, oh, Rome, this is the best thing we’ve seen. Look at you now, and the Volscians are gearing up for what they think is going to be a very easy takedown of Rome at this point, because the Romans are just sort of lying on the Capitol line Hill being like, I’m so glad the Gauls have gone and I don’t even know what I’m going to eat, because there’s nothing up here, and I don’t know if I can crawl down far enough to find a piece of bread that I threw three days ago. And while they’re doing that, the Volscians are like and it is only then, it seems, that Camillus sort of emerges out of the countryside with a fully fledged force that he’s been gathering for quite some time, probably made up from the folk of Veii and people he’s come across in the countryside who are also Roman, who like, oh, Camilius! Ah! Well! And he has turned up, and it’s the Volscians that he engages with initially, because that’s the most immediate threat that Rome is facing.

Dr Rad 47:59
Well, look, I am just going to say that Livy’s account is far more comforting than this rubbish you are spewing, Dr G, if we go with Livy’s account, then the Romans are not so impious or lame as to use their temple treasures in order to pay the Gauls. They hold onto the Capitol. There is no complete Gallic invasion the Romans at least, can say that they’ve done their duty to the city, and then they get Camillus to show up and put everything to right and put those freaking barbarians in their place. Livy’s account is the account to go for because, let me tell you. Dr G, this is the moment where Camillus settles up. Because, of course, the gods are not going to let the Romans be pulverized into the ground because they’ve been doing the right thing. They’ve been making sure that everything is appropriate. So it’s whilst there’s argument over the weight where the Romans keep saying, No, I refuse to believe that this is 1000 pounds in gold. I think you’re being a tricksy little Gaul. And the Gauls are saying, I am so evil. I have no interest in your concerns, Roman accountant.

Dr G 49:18
And it’s like, what are you gonna do about it? How you’re going to stop me?

Dr Rad 49:21
Exactly. So the stalling is when Camillus enters the scene and no money has actually changed hands. So the shame of Rome is somewhat averted by the entrance of Camillus, because whilst they’re about to make the payment, they don’t. No, instead, Camillus shows up and says, hey guys, why don’t you make like a tree and leave the Gauls say, I don’t think so, mate, we had a deal. Now this, of course, is the moment where maybe Camillus is actually showing up with the money the Gauls are just waiting to get the money. And instead of paying them, Camillus and his band start a war. And the Gauls are like, what the hell I thought we had a deal?

Dr G 50:09
I don’t want to say that this is almost unbelievable, but there’s a lot of holes in this story.

Dr Rad 50:15
It gets better. Camillus then says, pish-tosh, your deal is null and void because you made it with some other magistrate, some lowly military tribune with consular power. Whereas I am dictator. So put that in your pipe and smoke it King Brennus. Instead of a pile of gold, I’m going to be giving you a steaming pile of war. How do you like that?

Dr G 50:46
I do like how the Romans have turned into British imperial, aka Star Wars style.

Dr Rad 50:53
Entirely intentional, I assure you. I’m just following Livy’s account to the letter.

Dr G 51:00
Look. So problem number one the timeline. Camillus is not here. He’s just not here. He’s somewhere else. He doesn’t turn up. The money definitely changes hands. As far as Diodorus Siculus is concerned, the Romans give over the 1000 pounds of gold. The Gauls start to walk away. In Diodorus’ account, Camillus isn’t even appointed dictator until he turns up and the Volscians are already at Rome’s door. And Rome is like, We really need your assistance. And he’s like, Well, I need to be able to command troops, because I don’t have permission to do that, because I’m an exile. And they’re like, oh, right, right, right, right, right. Quick meeting. Quick meeting. Quick dictator title is offered. And so it’s this idea in this intense situation where the Gauls are moving off into the distance with all of the treasure, the Volscians there being like, and the Romans are like, okay, we’ll make it legal for you to lead this army that you’ve turned up with. Camilius, please, please, please. And he’s like, sure thing now that I have the legal right to do so, I’m willing to help out. And the moment of the dictatorship is post 1000 pounds of gold. It is also post the arrival of the Volscians and he’s very late in the piece. So his contribution, essentially, to the Gallic sack of Rome is zero, because by the time that he turns up the Gallic sack has happened, and he’s just picking up the crumbs and being like, I’ll help you guys out. It’s probably time that I did something. And everyone’s like, please do you’re the only one who’s been fed in six months.

Dr Rad 52:48
Look, I don’t enjoy these moments. Dr, G, but I mean, you’re just so wrong. Camillus is quite clearly coming in like the white knight that he is. He then turns around to the soldiers that he’s been drilling Rocky 1975 style, and says, throw your packs down on the ground, get your weapons. We’re gonna win Rome’s freedom through iron, not gold. Who’s with me? And everyone loses their minds, because in Livy’s account, the Romans now have every motivation to fight. They’ve got their city not in shambles, even though they kind of keep referencing the fact that it is partly in shambles, not well maintained, their families, but most importantly, their gods, their temples clearly still standing, at least in part. The Capitol, of course, not being touched. And so the grand temple on the Capitol is indeed still standing and of course, the soil, the soil itself from which they were birthed, not really, but let’s run with it. They can just see it all before them, everything that their faith, everything that their gods, everything that their land has allowed them to live for and now they get to defend, recover, avenge.

Dr G 54:29
Wow.

Dr Rad 54:31
Camillus then readies his forces and draws up his battle lines, even though this is incredibly difficult because Rome’s landscape is extremely uneven, and there’s crap everywhere because it’s been devastated, but he always makes sure that the Romans are in the best position possible to give them every chance of winning. The Gauls have no idea what’s going on. They didn’t expect this. Surprise dictator to show up with his rocky trained Sylvester Stallone forces at his back. They’ve got their weapons and armor and typically for barbarians, attack with more rage than judgment. Oh yes, we’re back into the racist territory here. But fortune was no longer on their side. So they can be as angry as they want. Fortune’s back with the Romans, Dr G, they’ve been punished enough. They’ve had to watch their city burn in part, kind of, not really. They’ve had to watch their families leave kind of, maybe not really. It’s Rome’s moment, and so the Gauls are very quickly overcome. I mean, considering the siege has gone on for as long as it is, it’s almost too hard to believe that they are so easily overcome. But this is “Alia Part Two: Judgment Day”. Rome gets to win this time. It’s all been fixed. But then comes a second battle, which is described as a more regular engagement, which I presume means that everyone knows it’s coming this time, and they’re, you know, properly attired and ready for it, and that sort of thing…

Dr Rad 56:14
Please please. I’ve got to put on my military boots.

Dr Rad 56:18
I didn’t even put on my eye makeup. My hair’s still in rollers. It happens about eight miles out on the Gabinian Way where the Gauls had withdrawn after their first disastrous defeat by Camillus. But I mean, with Camillus on the Roman side, do they even stand a chance? No, they don’t. Dr, G, they definitely do not. And they are defeated again.

Dr G 56:40
Wow, yeah, wow.

Dr Rad 56:42
I’m as exhausted as a Roman has been on the Capitoline for seven months.

Dr G 56:49
Well, look, I look forward to our next episode together, where I will tell listeners and your good self the true history of what happens with Camillus and the Gallic siege.

Dr Rad 57:03
I don’t think you can come back from this, Dr G, Livy is quite clear that the Gauls are massacred and there’s not a single survivor.

Dr G 57:09
So there is a lot of material to work with here.

Dr Rad 57:13
If that ain’t the truth, I don’t know what is. I mean, Camillus, this is like, you know, another second founding moment. He’s secured Rome, able to head back to Rome, victorious. I mean, just, everything’s just perfect again.

Dr G 57:26
Everything’s fallen into place.

Dr Rad 57:29
Totally is. I mean, is there a limit to how many times Camillus can save Rome? I just don’t think that there is.

Dr G 57:38
Yeah, look, definitely not. I mean, he’s done it again. Go sunshine.

Dr Rad 57:41
Yep. Everyone’s turning around and saying, You know what? We’re gonna start calling you Romulus, because you are the second founder of the city, Camillus.

Dr G 57:49
Dangerous, dangerous times.

Dr Rad 57:52
All right, Dr, G, now that I am spent with all that drama

Dr G 57:56
much like the Romans themselves, after these adventures,

Dr Rad 57:59
exactly, yeah, I think it’s time for the Partial Pick. All right. Dr, G, please tell us what is the Partial Pick?

Dr G 58:11
Well, we’re going to rate those Romans according to their own criteria that we made up. They are up for a total of 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. The first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 58:29
Well, I mean, can you really put too many eagles on the fact that the Romans have just killed all the Gauls that were besieging them for so long.

Dr G 58:41
You have to think about this in terms of the 80% of the episode where they were starving to death.

Dr Rad 58:48
I’m taking a Livian approach, where I just focus on the good stuff that makes Rome look better.

Dr G 58:53
Only interested in results, guys, results only. Yeah, look, I’m unwilling to overlook the 80% of the terrible times that they had where there was not a whiff of military cloud, there was, in fact, mostly the breeze of things going badly.

Dr Rad 59:13
Yeah, okay, look, look, I will concede that it’s probably likely that Rome didn’t have a good time at this moment. Whether it was 390 BCE or 387 or whatever, it’s probably not great.

Dr G 59:30
No, yeah, not ideal. I’m glad that they’ve made a comeback, if we’re just basing it on Camillus’ military clout, yeah, according to Livy, which – question marks

Dr Rad 59:39
Should we have two ratings this time where, like, one’s the Livy version was probably what really happened?

Dr G 59:46
Yeah, look, I think it might end up being the case that we give a really high score now because Livy’s version is so powerful, and then we might give a very different score later, when we get through Diodorus Siculus and what he has to say about the same situation.

Dr Rad 59:59
Okay. Let’s do it. Let’s look at the sunshine and lollipops version.

Dr G 1:00:03
As military clout, yeah. And if we’re thinking about what Camilo has done according to Livy, very powerful, yeah, very moving, yeah. I mean, just strategy, like, yeah, not just the surprise battle, but also the second earlier, the refounding, the Romulus thing, obviously, that’s, that’s a 10, like, it does not get better than that.

Dr Rad 1:00:24
I know. I mean, it’s like a total do over. It’s literally the sequel, but it’s, it’s better than the first movie. And that never happens.

Dr G 1:00:33
Yeah, don’t turn it into a trilogy, because then things go down, it’ll stay with the second film being the best.

Dr Rad 1:00:39
Livy’s not done with Camillus, yeah. He actually is a bit like Rocky in that he will keep coming back. Will keep coming back, even when he probably shouldn’t.

Dr G 1:00:46
As long as we get to the Michael B Jordan films later. That’s fine by me. So military clout, I’m happy to offer Livy’s account just on the basis of just how dramatic it is and how fulsome Camillus powers are. It’s definitely a 10.

Dr Rad 1:01:02
Thanks. All right, what’s our next category then?

Dr G 1:01:07
The second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:01:10
Ooh, okay, well, there is some negotiation going on.

Dr G 1:01:13
We finally have some diplomacy. We definitely people from different sides coming together.

Dr Rad 1:01:20
Yes, it’s not great, either the Gauls were very deceptive and using their power to exploit the Romans, or the Romans struck a deal and then stabbed them in the back.

Dr G 1:01:34
I mean, the good news is that we don’t have to rate the Gauls because it’s not their problem, and we only care about what the Romans are up to, really, I think.

Dr Rad 1:01:42
This is true either way. I think whichever account you look at that we’ve talked about today, I think it’s probably good for the Romans. The tricky thing is there are other accounts that we haven’t got to yet of how the ransom was actually recovered, which is not by Camilius or Roman army, possibly by the people of Caere or maybe even one of Tiberius ancestors in some sort of single combat later on, didn’t mention that.

Dr G 1:02:17
Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert.

Dr Rad 1:02:19
Yeah

Dr G 1:02:20
Yeah. We won’t get to those. So as terms of how the diplomacy has gone for the Romans, in the version that we’ve looked at, which is predominantly Livy at the moment, yeah, also a little bit of Plutarch, yeah, the diplomacy has been the Romans have done their best, and even when the Gauls have goaded them and poked them and being like, whoa, to the conquered and all of that kind of stuff. And uploaded the more items – uploaded?

Dr Rad 1:02:45
Get the t shirt, get the merch.

Dr G 1:02:49
Whack another shield on the scale, and are having a cheeky time about it. The Romans have matched them yes to get out of this situation. So the Romans, For the first time maybe have been pretty proactive in their diplomacy, because they’re at their wit’s end, and they know that. They don’t – they’re in a corner. They they must do something.

Dr Rad 1:03:11
How diplomatic thought is it there that their first round of negotiations ended up with them throwing their bread supplies?

Dr G 1:03:18
Well, we can certainly give them a lower score.

Dr Rad 1:03:20
I don’t approve of the throwing of baked goods in diplomatic situations, Dr G.

Dr G 1:03:25
It’s a waste of a good pastry, that is. And I disapprove from a love of carbs perspective,

Dr Rad 1:03:31
Absolutely.

Dr G 1:03:31
So I think diplomacy may be a five.

Dr Rad 1:03:34
Okay, all right, yeah, fair enough, yeah. I’ll sit with that.

Dr G 1:03:37
Then we move on to expansion.

Dr Rad 1:03:39
Okay. Well, no matter what account you look at, no is the answer.

Dr G 1:03:44
We’ll have none of that around here. It’s not the time.

Dr Rad 1:03:46
No, even if we go with Livy’s very sunshiny version of things, they’re just getting back what they had taken from them in a very humiliating way.

Dr G 1:03:56
This is true. This is true.

Dr Rad 1:03:57
Yeah,

Dr G 1:03:58
Virtus?

Dr Rad 1:04:00
Okay, well, I think maybe Camillus. Come on. You know, you wanna…

Dr G 1:04:08
What has he done? What has he done?

Dr Rad 1:04:10
He’s been there, Dr G as the dictator. He’s trained an elite force of 80s action heroes for your benefit.

Dr G 1:04:19
Doom do-do-dooo

Dr Rad 1:04:24
Yeah. I think Camillus definitely deserve some points here if we’re sticking with our pattern.

Dr G 1:04:33
But is that virtus? I mean, that’s military prowess. Sure, that’s training up some people. That’s getting people fired up. But does that constitute an understanding of Roman manliness in this moment? I’m not sure that it does.

Dr Rad 1:04:48
I feel like it does, because of what he says to them. You know, when he turns up and the Romans are trying to be diplomatic about the fact that they’re starving to death and the Gauls are piling shields onto the weights, and the Romans are like, I don’t really have the strength to raise my index finger, but I must object to these goings on. It’s just not cricket. Camilius shows up in this moment and is like, we’re not paying you a goddamn thing. You can take your crap and get out of here. We’re gonna win it back through military powers. I kind of feel like that’s got a bit of a virtus moment to it, you know, like, maybe not like a 10, but I feel like it’s, it’s something, and then he massacres them, kills every single Gaul.

Dr G 1:05:35
Every single one.

Dr Rad 1:05:38
Yeah, I mean, practically single handedly. Now I’m embellishing, my embellished account, but

Dr G 1:05:42
What a man, what a man, what a man, what a migthy good man.

Dr Rad 1:05:46
He’s a mighty mighty good man.

Dr G 1:05:49
Camillus, er, virtus, er…

Dr Rad 1:05:51
I want to take a minute or two to give much respect to, to the man that’s made a difference in Rome’s world

Dr G 1:05:56
I do love that song, one of the classics. Okay, so what would you rate this virtus? Because I’m still a bit on the fence, so I’m interested in your perspective on this.

Dr Rad 1:06:06
I know it’s not one of those sorts of moments where, like, the gods are literally shining a beam of sunshine on his head whilst he single handedly charges into battle in like, slow motion and all that kind of stuff. But I feel like it’s got to be like, maybe a two, you know, just something, because I feel like it’s a moment. It’s a moment. I mean, you get called the second founder of Rome. I feel like it’s, it’s something.

Dr G 1:06:30
Oh, yeah, I’m not sure that that’s virtus, though. I’m pretty sure that that sort of encapsulates other things. But, yes, all right, two.

Dr Rad 1:06:37
No, but I think, you know, the the title reflects the deeds, you know, like the look, I’m just, I’m just on a high right now, and I demand those points. You can’t quote Salt’N’Peppa at me and not expect me to fight for my man.

Dr G 1:06:53
Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah, happy for it to be. Thank you. I appreciate it. The final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:07:01
Okay, well, again

Dr G 1:07:03
It depends on which citizen you are really.

Dr Rad 1:07:05
Yeah. I mean, yeah, if you’re in exile, maybe it’s all right, but if we go with what was suggested by the academic I read, then they’re having to pay tax and they’re not even in the city.

Dr G 1:07:20
Yeah, not a lot of benefit there.

Dr Rad 1:07:23
No. I mean, the women are involved, Dr G, the women,

Dr G 1:07:26
Even the women!

Dr Rad 1:07:28
Yeah, that’s not a good sign. I saw gold jewelry. They don’t have any anymore. They don’t have any. I’ve given it away for a good cause, room itself. Even though I’m so weak from hunger, I need to have a statement necklace. Hold body upright, show off décolletage…

Dr G 1:07:50
Don’t make me give up the family jewels. I’ll die with this brooch.

Dr Rad 1:07:54
I need to have a shiny ring, so when I flip the gauze off, it sparkles in their eyes.

Dr G 1:08:02
So it’s not a great time to be a patrician matron, I would say.

Dr Rad 1:08:06
No, well, I mean nobody. I mean if you’re in the city, you’re starving to death and possibly taken captive

Dr G 1:08:11
Not ideal. If you’re in Veii, you’re kind of looking wistfully over yonder, being like, I don’t know if this is going to work out for us. And if you’re in Camillus training camp, you’re probably like, let’s get jacked.

Dr Rad 1:08:24
Well, I mean, let’s face it, is that a good time, not a good time in my books? Dr, G, that’s why I’ve never been fit a day in my life. So, yeah, I think if you’re in the whether you’re in the Rocky montage, or whether you’re in exile somewhere else, or whether you’re starving to death on the Capitoline, it’s not good, okay? Camillus is the only one happening in good time, right?

Dr G 1:08:43
He does count as a citizen as well, I suppose so. It sounds to me like we’re dealing with something between a zero and maybe a one.

Dr Rad 1:08:51
I think zero, yeah, it’s got to be zero. I think, yeah.

Dr Rad 1:08:54
Well done and dusted.

Dr Rad 1:08:56
All right, Dr, G, that means that, surprisingly, the Romans have, once again, managed to get a far higher score than I thought. But let’s face it, that’s mostly down to Livy. So Livy, this one’s for you. Rome gets 17 golden eagles. None of them probably deserved.

Dr G 1:09:15
Wow. The power of a good narrative, Livy, he’s really selling us a tale, isn’t he?

Dr Rad 1:09:20
Hey, what can I tell you? I mean this, this is a lesson in ancient historiography. You know, you got a right to please the people. Got to have some flair. Can’t just be fact, fact, fact. Yeah, have that space, that space, that Roman spice, that patrician spice.

Dr G 1:09:39
Well, I really look forward to getting together next time and maybe talking a little bit more about what Diodorus Siculus has to say about this whole situation, and just see maybe where the narrative lands.

Dr Rad 1:09:52
Then I’m going to put quite a limb. Dr, G and say I’m seeing a part seven in our future.

Dr G 1:10:00
Quite possible. In terms of my notes, we have made very little progress in this episode.

Dr Rad 1:10:05
Like a paragraph long.

Dr G 1:10:06
I’ve gotten through two dot points. It’s really not enough. I thought I’d get through maybe five.

Dr Rad 1:10:11
I’m sorry. It’s just, you know what? You’ve got to follow the money. Dr, G, you’ve got to follow the money.

Dr G 1:10:17
Yeah, oh yeah. Well, I’ll continue to do that in my research, and we’ll see where that leads us next time.

Dr Rad 1:10:23
See you. Dr, G.

Dr G 1:10:25
Farewell.

Dr G 1:10:32
Thanks for listening. If you’d like to support the podcast, you can find us on Patreon and Ko-Fi. We’ve also published two books on ancient Roman history. “Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome”, examines the different literary accounts of the earliest rulers recorded in Roman history. “Your Cheeky Guide to the Roman Empire” is full of the sorts of stories the Romans wished you didn’t know about them, and is guaranteed to make the interesting conversation. Thank you to all our Patreon supporters. We are truly humbled by your patronage.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 170 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 5 appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We’re back with more exciting episodes from the infamous Gallic sack of Rome. If you haven’t listened to our previous eps, make sure you go back to the beginning of this tale!

We have action in three different locations in this episode – Camillus in Ardea, the remnants of the Roman army in Veii and the Romans under siege on the Capitoline.

A recreation of the Temple of the Capitoline Triad on one of the peaks of the hill (albeit in a later period). Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

The siege had entered a fairly quiet stage where little was happening on either side. It was at this point that one of the Fabian clan decided that his duty to the gods was worth more than his life. Gaius Fabius Dorsuo calmy descended from the Capitol, past the stunned Gauls and went off to the Quirinal to perform an annual sacrifice that was part of Fabian tradition. His piety so impressed the Gauls that they allowed him to pass, unscathed.

The Romans in Veii had selected the centurion, Quintus Caedicius as their commander. They were growing in numbers as stragglers who fled during the attack sought refuge. Latin allies also joined the Romans.

It depends on which account you read as to what happened next. Livy claims that the forces at Veii decide that they have had enough beauty sleep and now they want Camillus recalled from exile so they can seek their vengeance. Other sources indicate that they were just trying to get word to their fellow Romans that they were, in fact, ALIVE! Either way, a sprightly young man named Publius Cominus was selected to travel to the besieged city and smuggle himself onto the Capitol to deliver his message.

Whichever version you believe, somehow Camillus worms his way back into our narrative, and our hearts. Naturally, Camillus would not set foot outside of Ardea without all the paperwork being in order, but once his exile was officially over, he was ready to step into the role of dictator.

However, Camillus was still packing his bags when the Gauls noticed a possible route up the top of Capitoline. It meant scaling up a cliff face, so surely the Romans would never suspect it. It’s so crazy, it just might work.

A bronze sculpture of goose from the Capitoline Museum collection. Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

Slowly, the Gauls helped each other to make the difficult climb. They were so quiet, the Roman dogs did not hear the coming. But the sacred geese sure did! They caused such a ruckus that Marcus Manlius woke up and realised what was going on. This allowed him to arouse the other Romans and lead the charge against the attackers. It gets pretty grisly at this point. Best case scenario: the Gauls were hurled to their deaths. Worst case… you’ll have to listen to find out!

On a serious note, please be aware that this episode does include discussion of animal cruelty.

Q. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat)

K. Fabius M. f. Q n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 404, 401, 395

N. Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 406

Q. Sulpicius -f. -n. Longus (Pat)

Q. Servilius Q. f. P. n. Fidenas (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 402, 398, 395, 388, 386

P. Cornelius P. f. M. n. Maluginensis (Pat) Cos. 393? Mil. Tr. c. p. 397

M. Furius L. f. Sp. n. Camillus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 401, 398, 394, 386, 384, 381

L. Valerius (L. f. L. n. Poplicola) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 394, 389, 387, 383

OR

L. Valerius (L. f. P. n. Potitus) (Pat) Cos. 393, 392; Mil. Tr. c.p. 414, 406, 403, 401, 398

?-390: M. Folius (Flaccinator?) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 433

Pontifex Maximus; slain by the Gauls

C. or K. Fabius Dorsuo (Pat)

439-390: Q. ? Servilius P. f. (Sp. n. Priscus or Structus Fidenas?) (Pat)

Successor: [—- Furi]us Q. f. P. nepos Fu[sus] (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 403

Dr Rad 0:15
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:19
We explore all the details of ancient Rome,

Dr Rad 0:23
everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle’s waged, and when citizens turn against each other, I’m Dr Rad

Dr G 0:33
and I’m Dr G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 0:57
Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr rad,

Dr G 1:05
and I am, Dr G, and I am excited. We are deep in the Gallic sack of Rome.

Dr Rad 1:14
You know, I knew this was going to be a big event. Dr G, but even I had underestimated just how much detail we have to get through today.

Dr G 1:22
There is so much. And this is episode four in this mini series, this limited series on the Partial Historians channel,

Dr Rad 1:32
just when you thought the girls couldn’t do any more to the Romans they do. So Dr, G, I feel it might be necessary to do a brief recap, because we’ve already covered multiple episodes, and I suspect this will actually not be our last on the Gallic sack of Rome. So let’s revisit where the Romans are at right now.

Dr G 1:53
It’s tough times for the Romans. They have encountered the Gauls. Taking us right back to the beginning, they’ve offended the Gauls. The Gauls have marched on Rome. The Romans have hidden in their own city, being like they’ll never fight us here, and the Gauls have found them there. And the Gauls are determinedly outside the walls of the city, and increasingly encroaching into the city space itself and pillaging the local area as well, because if there’s anything that 70,000 Gauls need, it’s food and supplies, and you can’t just sit down and have a siege if you yourselves are going hungry.

Dr Rad 2:33
No, and we’ve definitely seen some brutal deaths as the Gauls have undertaken this process of sacking Rome, most tragically, perhaps, the elderly senators. So it hasn’t been great.

Dr G 2:49
The Romans did decide at a certain point that they could only feed and look after so many Roman citizens on the Capitol, which is where they’ve retreated to the high point of the city. And in a very noble gesture, it seems that the eldest of the aristocracy have decided to give up their lives by sitting down in the lower parts of the city in their own homes and just waiting the Gauls arrival. And the Gauls do arrive, and it goes exactly as you might expect. Those old men aren’t physically tough enough to resist the Gauls, and they do get killed.

Dr Rad 3:25
I feel like the Brave Heart line kind of applies here. You may take our lives, but you’ll never take our freedom.

Dr G 3:33
They die as free men. They die as Romans. There’s weird to us. I suppose it’s a good thing, as much as we criticize the patricians constantly on this show, it might be one of our characteristics as a podcast.

Dr Rad 3:46
That’s one of our partialities. One might say,

Dr G 3:49
potentially Yes, in this moment, the aristocracy do show themselves as people who are willing to put Rome before themselves in that very last moment. So I do give them kudos and respect for that,

Dr Rad 4:06
I would, but I feel like this is the kind of story that the Romans like to tell about themselves to justify this elite nonsense.

Dr G 4:15
Never believe anything that the elite Romans tell you.

Dr Rad 4:19
Perhaps one of the big problems though, that the Romans are facing Dr G is that the hero of the day, Camillus, who has been such a character throughout the past episodes we’ve been doing, he has been exiled by the Roman people. And it seems like this, at least for Livy, is one of the reasons that the Romans are in such a pickle right now,

Dr G 4:44
the best guy’s been left out. Of course, we can’t win

Dr Rad 4:47
exactly if you missing one man, clearly, you cannot resist a Gallic invasion.

Dr G 4:53
Yes, the morality of Livy never fails to inspire

Dr Rad 4:58
but in our last. Episode, we have started to see the return of Camillus. He’s got his warrior act on. Dr G He’s making himself into a Marvel superhero, coming out of exile, starting to cause some headaches for the Gauls in the region,

Dr G 5:19
and this is a very confusing part of the story, and one that historians have wrestled with, because within the context of the various narratives that we have about this Gallic sack, Camillus plays a bit part at best, and he is in it

Dr Rad 5:40
A bit part? Camillus?

Dr G 5:43
I know, I know he’s got main character energy, but one of the variations on this narrative is that in vey the commander, there a guy called Quintus Caedicius is the one who puts forward the idea that they need Camillus to be able to get through this time of trouble, and that’s before we even suppose for a moment that they and Rome know about their split forces, which it is not clear at all in other versions of the narrative, but we do have This account of Quintus Caedicius Raising the call for Camillus to be recalled and instated as dictator, and it is something that is apparently agreed to by the Roman Senate in Camillus absence. So the suggestion seems to be in some versions of the story that Camillus is still in exile and ultimately receives word that he has been appointed dictator without his knowledge, and now must do the great things that are required by a dictator. Now, on some level, you want to believe a story like that, because it sounds incredibly characteristic of the way the Romans want to believe that their republic worked. On the other hand, what we see Camillus doing is leaving Ardea raiding a Gaulish camp that is a foraging and pillaging camp, and then disappearing from the narrative again. Well, the whole Gallic sack actually happens.

Dr Rad 7:13
Well, see, this is the chronology that Livy gives me, the sack of that Gallic camp that we dealt with last time that all happens before any talk of dictatoriness. So it seems like Camillus is more just concerned. You know, he’s a concerned on looker. He’s invested in Rome’s fate.

Dr G 7:34
He’s like, I see trouble on the horizon. I see some Gauls in my local area. I should do something about that, because that’s the Roman way,

Dr Rad 7:41
exactly yes. And so that’s kind of where we were up to, I think, in our last episode. And so I don’t know about you, Dr G, but I am. I’m ready for some Gallic sacking. Ah, ah,

Dr G 8:15
we’re up to seeing one of the great parts of this story in this episode, because at the same sort of parallel timeline that we have Caedicius, sort of seeking out the dictatorship for Camillus, we also have another figure from Veii, a guy called Cominius Pontius, who seems to wander down to the city on the premise that they need to give Rome the information that there is a whole additional Roman force. So we have this moment where the Roman forces in Veii come to the understanding that maybe, just maybe the Romans don’t know that there’s a whole bunch of Romans also in Veii, and we saw the fear that had happened in the aftermath of the Battle of the Allia, where people were just running away, sort of in any direction that they could to get away from the Gauls. And we know that some of them end up back in Rome and some of them end up in Veii but they do not seem to be aware of how many have ended up where,

Dr Rad 9:22
and that would, that would make sense, I think, in the panic of a truly horrible battle which really hasn’t gone their way, that people would just scatter and you wouldn’t know what had happened to various sides of the army.

Dr G 9:36
Yeah, definitely. So you’ve got this situation where you’re running for your life. You’re not necessarily counting who’s going in your direction and who’s going in another direction.

Dr Rad 9:44
Hey, Bill, Bill, are you heading to Rome or they? I’m kind of thinking they. That’s kind of my vibe right now. Are you thinking Rome? Oh, oh, this is awkward.

Dr G 9:54
I guess I’ll catch up with you later. Yeah. Like,

Dr Rad 9:57
we’ll, you know, like, have some exile and. You with some sages, and then I’ll catch you when I see you.

Dr G 10:03
Send me a letter. Dear Bill, I’m still in Veii.

Dr Rad 10:08
Dear Marsha, our love for each other will never die. We just have to endure this siege a little longer and this separation, my darling, please hang on. Ever Yours.

Dr G 10:26
It’s a tragic time, but they’re not letter writing either. They literally don’t know anybody’s anywhere. So it seems, at some point into this whole process, and we’re of the understanding that the siege of Rome is something like six to seven months worth of siege. At some point in this process, the Roman forces that have gathered in Veii are like, maybe we could help and maybe

Dr Rad 10:52
second, wait a second, we’re here, but nobody knows we’re here. Oh my god,

Dr G 11:02
we could be the secret backup force that breaks the siege. We could.

Dr Rad 11:08
I’m sensing an opportunity, guys,

Dr G 11:13
is it strategy or is it tactics? Nobody knows. So we have this moment they come to this realization. The Romans in Veii are like, Wait a minute. We could be we could help. And they decide to send a delegate, just one person, it would seem, maybe accompanied by a few others, but only one is named,

Dr Rad 11:32
oh, he’s definitely by himself in in my account. In fact, I particularly appreciated the detail that Livy gives me that he managed to get to Rome by floating down the Tiber on some cork.

Dr G 11:48
Wow, that is not the story I’ve got. That’s amazing look.

Dr Rad 11:52
I’m all for sustainable materials, but that just seems flimsy to me.

Dr G 11:56
I mean, the cork would float, but it would have to be a very large piece of cork to work to float a human

Dr Rad 12:01
picturing him being like, you know, if everybody had an ocean, then everybody be surfing.

Dr G 12:12
Just amazing. All right, so, listeners, picture in your mind Cominius Pontius floating on a piece of cork down the type

Dr Rad 12:21
of river look. I should also add that in Livy’s account, he is described as a sprightly young thing. So surfing would be in his wheelhouse. I have to assume,

Dr G 12:32
yeah, look, I mean river surfing, it’s a whole new wave, isn’t it? So Cominius Pontius, he decides to be the one he’s the delegate, or maybe he chooses off his own back. We’re not sure, to take the happy news that there is an additional force really in vain that could surprise. We’re all alive. We lived. And so he heads towards the Capitoline Hill. And in my account, which is maybe less exciting than Livy’s. He is starting out alone, swimming the river by night, and doesn’t seem to have a cork.

Dr Rad 13:09
He’s swimming okay. Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

Dr G 13:14
Exactly he’s gonna be fine. He reaches one of the cliffs that leads up to the Capitoline, and it is a very difficult climb, but it is night time, and he manages to get himself up this cliff, and he gets to the top, and everyone’s like, what are you doing? He manages to convey the message to the Romans that have placed themselves on the Capitoline for defense, that there are troops at Fay and they are waiting and watching for an opportunity to attack the Gallic forces. The Romans on the Capitoline hill are like that is such good news. Thank you so much. But maybe you should go home. Don’t stay here. This is not a great place to be. So he climbs back down the cliff in the middle of the night and swims back up the Tiber.

Dr Rad 14:07
That is all very difficult in a time period without much street lighting. He’s doing some Cliff climbing and swimming in the Tiber.

Dr G 14:16
It’s a one night journey to swim from day night only

Dr Rad 14:21
one night only, really just there’s so many songs that can be added to the story.

Dr G 14:27
I’m glad you’re here to lend the sense of drama that is appropriate to this moment. He goes out for one night, swims down the Tiber, climbs a cliff, leaves a message, climbs back down the cliff, swims back up the Tiber, which seems to be more difficult, I would assume, because the tire is working against you now. Yeah, heads back into Veii

Dr Rad 14:48
well, see that’s where the cork thing makes sense, coming down. But what about going back?

Dr G 14:54
You get tired. You stop kicking your legs for a bit. You hold on to the cork board, and you lose all of your progress, but when you start again, you haven’t sunk.

Dr Rad 15:03
Livy gives me a few additional details in the lead up to this Dr G and look, I think this actually goes to show the awkwardness of this account, even though it’s obviously such a notable event, perhaps because it’s such an important event for the Romans, there are obviously going to be various things that people are trying to sandwich in for various reasons, and one of the things that they are trying to sandwich in is Camillus, because who doesn’t love a Camillus sandwich? Oh, no. How does Camillus end up in this story? Well, okay, so I’m going to start at this moment of the sprightly young thing that is Pontius Cominus, and explain how this works with my Camillus narrative. Because you know that Livy in particular is very invested in Camillus story. Pontius caminus is not actually going to Rome in my account to tell the Romans who are besieged by the Gauls up there that we live. There are people in Veii. You might not have known this, but you have this secret surprise extra force that’s reasonably sizable on your side. He’s actually there to tell them that, hey, there’s this collection of us at Veii, and we’ve decided that we need Camillus. That is His sole purpose to be like you guys need to summon Camillus, but we have to go about this the right way. And we knew back in Veii that the right way to handle this was to ask the Senate, because they’re the only ones who can really initiate this whole process. And Livy’s like, what men are the Romans. I mean, even in the darkest of times. They know that you have to follow the proper channels. You know there’s a line of communication here that must be followed. Doesn’t matter if you’re under siege. Doesn’t matter if there’s a gigantic Gallic army that’s just burnt down your city and murdered all the patricians. You still need to go to the appropriate people and get permission before you

Dr G 17:01
do anything, we will always follow protocol, and

Dr Rad 17:05
that is what he is there to do. So in Livy’s account, it’s not night time, as far as I can tell. He doesn’t explicitly say that, but what he does is, when he arrives, he sneaks up a very steep part of the Capitoline, which the Gauls had thought, meh, we need to guard that. There is no way any Roman could possibly get up that way, and that’s how he reaches the Capitol. It’s not under the cover of night. It’s just because it’s a part that the Gauls had been like. I think we need to guard that interesting.

Dr G 17:37
All right, so I mean the insertion of Camillus classic, I suppose, yeah.

Dr Rad 17:43
And basically he then he gets the permission the magistrates hear him, and the Senate decide that the Curia Comitia, or the Comitia curiata, would indeed end Camillus exile. And they decide at this moment that he would be appointed dictator. And so Pontius Cominus, then has to get back to ve to tell them, right, we’ve got permission. Everything’s happening in the proper way. The proper bodies have been performed. They’re voting, they’re talking, they’re debating. And then they have to send messengers off to Camillus, who is still in exile in Ardea, to tell him to go to they as his first point of call to, obviously, meet the men there. And Livy even explicitly says that he likes to think that Camillus would never have left Ardea until it had all been confirmed that the proper law, etc, had been passed to, like, end his exile. Because, you know what Camillus is like. He’s the straighty-180, keep it legit, man. You got to get the people’s permission. You can’t actually be a dictator. You know, take the auspices in the army until it’s all very official. Put a ring on it, guys, Wow.

Dr G 18:54
Just wow. I’m just going to put it out there. I don’t think this narrative is very plausible.

Dr Rad 19:02
Dr, G, I’m disappointed in your lack of imagination.

Dr G 19:07
First of all, it’s the people in Veii, the Romans in vain, that decide that they would like Camillus to be dictated. That does seem to be a consistent thread in most of the versions. Why would it matter for Camillus to then travel to Veii, because it’s still the Roman Senate in Rome that is making the decision to place him in that position. So if he needs clarification from anybody, it’s not the people in Veii who were like, we think this would be a great idea. What do you reckon Rome?

Dr Rad 19:36
No, he’s not going he’s not going to Veii. For that, he’s going to ve because those are the forces he’s going to use to help them. Yeah, okay, summon there, because basically in my account. So this is where I’m going to backtrack a little bit. So I actually have a little bit of build up to this moment. Livy explicitly tells me that at they the Romans have spent some time recovering. You know, they’ve been going to the spa. They’ve got cucumbers on their eyes. They’ve got the. Their hair wrapped up in little towels. They’ve got the bathrobes on, and because they’ve had a little bit of downtime, they’ve been getting stronger and braver. They’re feeling regenerated. They’re ready. And they also have additional people constantly joining them. So obviously, with the sack of Rome, there are various Roman people who are just wandering aimlessly throughout the countryside being like, Oh my God, I don’t have a city. I don’t have a home anymore. And they’ve managed to find their way to ve because, as we’ve talked about, they actually isn’t that far away from Rome. So they’ve been joining so they’ve got growing numbers there. Interestingly, Livy also tells me that there are volunteers from Latium who are joining the Roman forces at Veii, because they are after plunder. They smell a battle, and they’re down for it. Now my commentator who I consult, and sadly, this might be one of the last episodes I actually have this commentator to refer to, points out, I think, quite rightly, that this is most likely actually supplies from the Latin treaty, who are turning up. They’re not necessarily volunteers. It’s just the Latins who are obliged to give Romans military service, probably even though the Romans are down in their luck, and this probably seems like a suicide mission, they are there. I also have a really interesting detail before all of this happens, that the Roman soldiers, at they had actually spotted some Etruscans trying to do a bit of raiding while the Romans were down in their luck. And because they were at they and I guess, apparently nobody knew that they were there, they’re just sort of looking out, and they see the Etruscans, you know, being all predatory. And they’re like, oh my god, we’re in this situation, in this exiled city, because we tried to help you Etruscan people. And where has it got us sitting here in Veii watching you trying to take advantage of our situation? I mean, God, these people, these people. And this is where I first get the mention of the centurion Quintus Caedicius, seemingly the commander of they because he organizes an attack on these people. And it’s after this attack, when they sort of dealt with these predatory Etruscans, that he’s like, look, you know what? I think it’s Camillus that we need really, because he’s following, he’s following the example that Camillus has set for him before, like attacking at night and that sort of thing. And so he sort of realizes that this is the moment where I think that we need Camillus. We need a hero.

Dr G 22:37
Look, this is quite similar to the stuff that Diodorus Siculus tells us, but there are nuances of difference. So we don’t have Quinctius quidictius, for instance, attached to this idea of leading forces against Etruscan opportunists. That doesn’t seem to be a thing. The idea of the Etruscans taking the opportunity is definitely covered. So it seems that as the forces, the Roman forces in Veii are trying to look after the area that they’re locally attached to, in this moment, they notice that there are raiding Etruscan forces, and they do disrupt a number of Etruscan camps and steal the booty from them. So classic raiding mentality going on, being like my shoes. Finally, they have returned to me.

Dr Rad 23:27
You know what? My city may have been burnt to the ground, but thank god I’ve got my sandals.

Dr G 23:32
Goodness me, I’ve been waiting years to get these sandals back from the Etruscans. And so they end up in possession of a whole bunch of additional arms, essentially, which allows them to then feel a sense of confidence, being like, Okay, we could raise an armed force of some substance in this moment, which could help break the siege of Rome.

Dr Rad 23:55
Yes, and that’s, that’s exactly, I think, the point of that story in my account as well. It’s about confidence. Dr G, the Romans need to believe in themselves. Again. They’ve suffered quite a blow.

Dr G 24:06
Yeah, they do. And now they’re holding a sword in their hand. They’ve got their sandals back on, and they’re like, I can do it now.

Dr Rad 24:12
I’m ready. I can. I can. I also have this really interesting little story. Dr G, which involves people who used to be called the fabulous fabii, but who I have now dubbed the foolish fabii,

Dr G 24:26
probably a better classification for them, really,

Dr Rad 24:29
yes, although this is not a moment of foolishness. And again, I feel like Livy’s really trying to constantly build up throughout his narrative of the siege. This idea that look the Romans definitely screwed up in the lead up to this event, they ignored portents. They didn’t look at the signs properly. You know, things were not as they should have been. But once the siege begins, all we seem to see is Romans behaving correctly. And there’s this moment in the siege that Livy. Tells me about. So there’s a lull. Nothing’s really going on. The Gauls are kind of just hanging out watching being like, God so dull, just trying to make sure that the Romans really aren’t escaping at this point. And they’re obviously all up there, you know, Citadel, capital, whatever. But then suddenly, both the Romans and the Gauls are astounded to see a lone Roman leaving the area where the Romans have secured themselves. And wouldn’t you know it, it’s one of the fabii. Dr, G What? Yeah. Gaius Fabius Dorsuo, hmm. This is a

Dr G 25:41
narrative which I have never come across in any other source, so I’m fascinated to hear how this goes.

Dr Rad 25:46
Okay, so the family of the Fabii allegedly make an annual sacrifice on the quirinal hill. Okay, okay, I take it back. I do have a source on this. Okay, and it’s this moment that Gaius Fabius Dorsuo is like, well, Siege or no siege, sacrifices must be held, so I’m just going to leave by myself in the midst of this siege, and he’s all ready for the sacrifice. We can tell this because Livy tells me he’s in the gabinian Cincture, which basically means that he’s like, belted his toga so that His arms can be free. Because, as we’ve talked about before, the toga is an unwieldy garment not really made for doing anything but gesturing with one arm emphatically,

Dr G 26:29
yeah, Heaven forfend, you have to grab a jar off a shelf with two hands, because that would be impossible in your toga, exactly.

Dr Rad 26:34
And he’s having to carry sacred vessels, so he needs his hands.

Dr G 26:39
These are sacred vessels that have not been removed from Rome. I note,

Dr Rad 26:43
well, exactly. I mean, these are presumably something to do with his family, I guess. Anyway, so he leaves the Capitol. He just walks straight through the pickets erected by the Gauls, and they obviously start hurling threats at him. He completely ignores them. He’s in the zone. He cares not for these Gallic threats, he just goes straight to the Quirinal hill and starts carrying out the rights and then returns seemingly entirely confident that because he is doing the right thing, he would be unharmed. He would not let death scare him away from the proper worship of the gods the Gauls have their jaws on the floor. They are completely confounded, kind of impressed by the level of his religious dedication. And there is maybe a little insult here in Livy’s account about the Gauls being like an overly superstitious people. I can’t really figure out if it’s meant to be a compliment that the girls were impressed by the Roman but I think it’s probably more a bit of a backhander where he’s like, you know, the girls, overly superstitious, foolish people,

Dr G 27:54
fascinating, given that the whole story, and the premise of it is that the gods must be upheld at all times, and the Romans must do it in the face of All troubles. Yeah, that’s

Dr Rad 28:02
why I can’t I couldn’t quite figure it out like, I think it is meant to be a little bit of an insult, or at least, sort of playing on this idea that the goals were a very superstitious people, and so were likely to be impressed by religious dedication, which is perhaps why they didn’t do anything to this guy. They just let him pass and that sort of thing. Now this is obviously a very curious story, and there are other explanations for what is going on here. There is a fragment from Cassius Hermina, and I think this will intrigue you, Dr G who says that Fabius was not actually carrying out some sort of family sacrifice, but was instead actually tending to the cult of Vesta.

Dr G 28:46
Oh yes. Now this is where it ties in very nicely with a small fragment from Appian, because this is mentioned and the priest isn’t given a designation as part of the Fabii. The name Dorso is part of it, but he is called Dorsonote

Dr G 29:07
I think there are variations in the name, yeah.

Dr G 29:09
And apparently he does go down from the Capitol because the annual sacrifice that is required of his priesthood is required at the Temple of Vesta. And he goes down into the city. He’s carrying all the sacred utensils that he needs. He goes through the ranks of the Gauls, and they seem. It’s described that the Gauls are either awed by his courage in going through with this act, or they have a high level of respect for the piety that he’s demonstrating, which would suggest that the Gauls recognize what sacred dress and sacred utensils for the Romans even look like, which is myself, I think, a big assumption, and the fact that he looks venerable in his appearance, all of these things are enough for them to be like. Well, this. Is curious. Let’s just watch and see what happens. And so he goes and he does the sacrifice in the Temple of Vesta and returns back up the hill. So be it. And that seems to be the end of the story. Why this story is told to us is less clear,

Dr Rad 30:19
I think in Livy’s account is definitely meant to be showing the piety of the Romans, given the fact that the Gallic sack of Rome seems to be a result of their lack of attention to things like omens importance and and that sort of thing. So I feel like that’s what Livy is trying to build up here. And it is a bit of a weird story, because we don’t necessarily have that much evidence to suggest that the fabii as a gens did have a very strong connection with the Quirinal there is some sort of connection, maybe, in the way that the family set out for the battle of chimera, where most of them are apparently slaughtered. But there’s no archeological evidence to show that any of the fabii ever lived in this location. We don’t really have any other mention of this sacrifice, as far as I’m aware. So it is a bit of an interesting one.

Dr G 31:19
It is, and the quirinal is not where the Temple of Vesta is, either. So these are two different versions of a story, and it’s hard to know what might be going on here. I do suspect that, given there are variations on their story, that there’s something to it, that at some point, perhaps there was some sort of agreement made with the Gauls that it was important for this religious right to take place, and they’d only be sending one man down the hill, and would it be permitted, and some agreement had been reached which allowed it to take place. But aside from that, this doesn’t seem to be the big ticket item that leads to the next thing that happens in this siege.

Dr Rad 32:03
No, I feel like it’s just part of the redemption story of Rome. But basically, once the chips are down, all of a sudden, the Romans remember how they should be conducting themselves and start, you know, polishing their shoes, making their beds.

Dr G 32:19
I suspect that might present a kind of literary foil to what we’ve seen with camilius, journey of accidentally promising things that he couldn’t keep to the gods whoops. And in this case, if there is a Fabian connection, the idea that they have acknowledged that there was wrongdoing on their part when they were in Clusium. And this is an attempt to write things and square things with the gods in this instance.

Dr Rad 32:46
Well, yes, lest we forget, that one of the earliest analysts of Rome was from this family, yes.

Dr G 32:53
And so this could be a redemptive arc as well, but for the Gauls and what is happening with this siege, it is really the situation with Pontius Cominius That seems to spur on the next act, because at least in the account of Diodorus, for all of the fact that he goes out under the cover of darkness to make contact with the Capitoline, the Gauls do see him. Interesting.

Dr Rad 33:24
See in Livy’s account, they see the footprints that he left behind, which is weird, because allegedly, they weren’t watching this part of the cliff because they thought nobody could possibly climb it. And yet they notice his footprints.

Dr G 33:37
I do like the we’re not looking. We’re not looking. Is that a shoe? What?

Dr Rad 33:44
Nobody’s been walking up this side of the cliff. We’ve all agreed it would be insane. Quick Get me my Sherlock Holmes outfit and my magnifying glass

Dr G 33:51
exactly like, what is this? I’ve seen something suspicious in a spot I was never looking

Dr Rad 33:59
Yeah, they even actually tested out themselves. They’re like, Oh my god, maybe there is a pathway up here that we haven’t noticed. We better try it out ourselves. And, oh my god, it does seem possible.

Dr G 34:13
And this is, I think, leading into what I think is the best part of this whole story, yeah, is that the Gauls do then send a force up the Capitoline, up this notoriously difficult cliff that maybe they were watching or maybe they weren’t watching. It’s no longer clear.

Dr Rad 34:30
I think it’s probably like kind of near the most difficult part. I don’t think they’re necessarily going up exactly the same path that our sprightly youth took, but yeah, they certainly are looking at the Capitoline and being like, oh my god, I think there’s a pathway that we hadn’t detected.

Dr G 34:47
But they do take this opportunity to sort of mirror what Cominius Pontius has done, which is, under the cover of darkness, send up some men to find a pathway, a secret way up the cliff, and be like, yes, well. Well, if one man can get up to the top without being spotted, dude who gets to the top, what if we send our men?

Dr Rad 35:05
Yes, and I’m actually given a precise location. It’s the cliff near the shrine of commentus. Now this is a reference to someone, I think, more commonly known as commenta, the mother of Evander. Evander is a character we have mentioned from time to time, because he’s kind of a bit of a alternative character to Romulus, I guess, an important character to the mythical foundations of Rome.

Dr G 35:33
Yeah, Evander comes through very strongly in Livy’s writing as an alternative sort of founding figure, and perhaps this idea that it’s near this place of carmenta will reveal some meaning over time as we get further into this story.

Dr Rad 35:51
Well, yes, I mean, I presume that there apparently Evander landed at Rome on advice given by his mother, Carmentis, Carmenta. And I presume that the shrine, obviously there is there for there to honor her part in the whole story, and him being able to establish himself on the Palatine. So I wonder if maybe it is something about, something to do with, you know, like the foundations, the establishment of Rome, and, you know, like sort of connecting to those ideas, that Rome is going to survive and going to be re established, perhaps, but I might be reading too much into it.

Dr G 36:27
I think it’s useful to think of this as a foreshadowing, because definitely some of these ideas are going to return into our narrative as we get further into this story. But the Gauls do this great moment of like, well, we’ll climb up this cliff. We’ll get to the top in the middle of the night. Nobody will know, but unfortunately, and most unfortunately, they do escape the detection of the guards. Apparently, they have landed upon a relatively unfortified section of the top of the Capitol line where the guards, for whatever reason, are either not paying attention or haven’t been looking there very closely, even though somebody of their own team just climbed up there the other day.

Dr Rad 37:09
Well, look, I presume it’s because, given the way that Livy’s sort of painting this, we’re well into the siege by this point. And we have talked about these moments where there’s been a real lull, nothing much is going on, therefore Fabii, I are just wandering around the place, seemingly ignoring all the signs saying, Stop Danger, danger. So maybe it’s just because, as would happen, I think with a siege, the really tense adrenaline kind of moments have passed, and maybe they’re just, you know, getting used to life on rations, yeah,

Dr G 37:41
and it’s hard to pay attention all of the time for sure, particularly when nothing has happened for a while, and it seems that maybe nothing has happened for a while, but lo and behold, the sacred geese of Hera aren’t having any of that. They’re paying attention, and they might be the only ones on the Capitoline paying attention. The sacred geese are what raises the alarm, and it’s the honking in the nighttime that really wakes everybody up and alerts them that the Gauls have climbed up the cliff face of the Capitoline Hill. And I love this moment. I think it’s such a beautiful way of thinking about the way the gods can interfere with people’s lives. And I do like that the geese get to have a starring role in this

Dr Rad 38:32
Well, see, I’m very intrigued by all of this, so I’m not a religious expert, as you know, when it comes to ancient Rome, so I hadn’t really ever thought about this story before, in terms of questioning exactly how the animals play a part. So this is actually part of one of my least favorite stories about Rome, because in my account, in Livy’s account, it’s the dogs that are supposed to wake everybody up if there are goals approaching. So presumably it’s part of their contingent, even though they’re so desperately short on food, they have dogs up there on the on the Capitoline, and the dogs don’t wake up. They sleep through and it’s the geese, as you say, that are sacred to Juno who, who wake everybody up. And the Romans, even though they were so desperately short on food, had not eaten animals like the geese because they were sacred. So again, their piety is kind of part of the story here. Unfortunately, the fact that the dogs didn’t wake up and they were supposed to means that the Romans are going to crucify a dog every year. It’s kind of like a remembrance and a punishment of this failure, which is absolutely my least favorite thing ever to have heard about the Romans. It’s just that is horrifying. I understand how important this moment is to them. I understand it could have led to the total collapse of their civilization, but crucifixion is just the most horrific way to kill. Kill any living creature. And the idea of putting a dog that knows absolutely nothing about what is going on into that position, like, I just can’t like the fact that when animals can’t understand what is going on around them, you know, they don’t understand war, they don’t understand these, these sorts of things, crucifying them. You know, when they have absolutely no choice in it? It just, yeah, it’s the same kind of thing. I don’t understand about our world these days. I don’t understand how people can be horrible to animals, particularly animals like dogs, who just want to love and serve human beings like they just have no malice towards anything. It just, I hate this story so, so much.

Dr G 40:43
Yeah, I agree with you, and this is part of the account that doesn’t come through in the source material that I’ve looked at. And so I have, I don’t know, upwards of 15 sources for this Gallic sack, and not once has the story of the dog being mentioned. And I find that interesting as well, because I’m hearing it for the first time from Livy’s account, and it’s it is horrifying, and I think we need to take on board that this is also just one of many horrifying acts of sacrifice that the Romans engage in. And because animal sacrifice is clearly very much part of their culture, and this is a particularly cruel way to engage

Dr Rad 41:28
in it true. I think it’s the thing of, I don’t like the idea of animal sacrifice, you know, I’m very much about just treating other living things with the dignity and respect that we would expect for ourselves. I don’t believe there is a difference between humans and humans and animals, because humans are animals, but I think when it comes to animal sacrifice in Rome, it’s my understanding. Correct me, if I’m wrong here, dr, G, that when you are sacrificing an animal, you actually don’t want it to be panicked at the moment of death. It is meant to be a relatively calm procedure. So whilst it isn’t my favorite thing, at least, I can kind of understand that the animal hopefully didn’t really feel much fear. You know, I think it’s actually probably certainly a kinder way to be killed than what millions of animals around the world endure at the hands of factory farming, where they’re literally lined up like on a conveyor belt, and have to watch other animals be killed and smell the blood and smell the fear and the urine and the feces that probably goes along with that whole process. Like what we do to animals is definitely, I think, far worse because of the scale and the fact that we actually should know better by now, but at the same time, and so I guess that’s why I can kind of overlook the animal sacrifice part of ancient Rome, but this particular thing I can’t really overlook, and look, Livy, doesn’t give me the full story right at this moment. It’s actually putting together other sources that I’ve read that I understand the ongoing impact of this moment for dogs and geese. The other side of this story is that the geese are on it every year, so you do have that side of the story. But the interesting thing I did come across about the geese, and this is where they say my lack of religious knowledge sort of came into play, because I wouldn’t really have actually questioned this. But apparently, geese are not really known to be sacred to Juno. They’re not really depicted, generally on monuments connected to her. And so it’s interesting that it is geese that are mentioned at this moment. And one of the sources that I read suggested that actually maybe there were birds on the Capitol, because we know that there was an auguraculum where birds would be watched for divine signs by just how they ate their food. You know, like, do they eat a lot? Do they eat greedily? Do they not eat a lot? And you would ascertain what the gods wanted from watching that. And we apparently don’t really know exactly which birds might have been used. Of this, we know that later on, hens were used, but maybe not always hens. So maybe the geese were there because they were a part of that,

Dr G 44:11
quite possibly. And yeah, you’re quite right. I mean, if we’re thinking about Juno’s Greek counterpart, Hera, often associated iconographically with the peacock, and we seem to have a real lack of peacocks in this story.

Dr Rad 44:26
It’s a different bird altogether. Yeah, you wouldn’t

Dr G 44:29
make the mistake, I don’t think. But anyway, the sacred geese very handy in this moment one because, as we all know, geese are great guard animals, and they raise the alarm. And it’s at this moment that we get to have a new hero enter into our story, because once the geese are off and running, being like, Alert, alert, something’s going wrong, flapping the wings, honking around Marcus Manlius or Maelius, he has variations on his name. He seems to be the first and the only named figure that rushes to the defense of the Capitoline hill in this moment. He’s definitely the one who encourages others to take up their swords in this moment. And what he does is horrifying as well. He starts cutting off Gaulish hands. So as the hands of the Gauls reach over the top edge of the cliff to finally achieve the ascent that they’ve been working on all night, he starts cutting off hands. Oh, my

Dr Rad 45:34
God, I don’t have that detail at all in my story, even though he is the one who wakes everybody else up, gathers all the weapons and is like, come on, slapping people awake. Get your act together. We’ve got some stuff to do. When he spots a Gaul who had almost made his way to the Romans, he uses his shield to sort of push him and beat him back. And when this Gallic person then slips and falls, it creates this domino effect where all the goals are kind of knocked down, like, and the goals are like, Oh my God. And the goals are obviously taken by surprise that they have been spotted, even though, surely they also heard the geese, but apparently not. And so they kind of drop all their weapons, and they are just hanging on to rocks. Now this would be the moment where you’d think, okay, he could come in and slice off some hands. But all I am told is that he kills them all. So just as they’re sort of dangling on the cliff face there, he kills them all, which is horrifying, but oh my god, the hand thing. Yikes.

Dr G 46:34
Yeah. Apparently Diodorus tells us that he goes for the hands first and then pushes them back. And so some of them start tumbling off the cliff. And he keeps going with that, and he encourages others to keep going with that, because it seems to be working. He’s like, go for the hands and then push him off.

Dr Rad 46:50
I mean, look, logically, that makes sense. If they’re scaling a cliff face in order to reach the Romans, it would absolutely make sense to be like stomping, stabbing, cutting their hands, yes.

Dr G 47:01
And once you fall off a cliff face, like the Capitoline Hill is high enough that if you fall off the top of it down a cliff face, it’s going to end badly for you. You’re either going to be very severely injured with not much longer to go, or the fall will kill you. So this places the Romans in a position where they’re feeling a little bit superior. They’re like, we’ve knocked back this attack. And this is sort of opens the door for some negotiations to take place.

Dr Rad 47:33
Okay, interesting. Before you get into the negotiations, I just have to add my favorite inconsequential detail about this whole story. So as you say, Manlius is attacking all these Gauls. The rest of the Romans join in. They’re using their javelins, they’re using stones, and all the Gauls are hurled to their death. And once all the Gauls have been killed, who’ve been trying to scale this cliff, the Romans are like, ooh, bit of adrenaline pumping through them, but it’s all kind of dying down now that they can see that there are no more attackers. And the Romans turn to each other, and they’re like, finally, we can get some decent sleep, and let’s go back to bed. Amazing. I’m also told by Livy that at dawn, the Romans are woken up, you know, like the trumpet sounds, the soldiers are all called to assemble before the tribunes because it’s time, Dr G to reward the good and the bad performances of the night. Manlius, of course, is the hero singled out for his bravery, and he is given gifts, not just from the tribunes, but all the soldiers had, somehow in the space of a night where they slaughtered some goals and got a decent amount of sleep, managed to get together, and they’ve each brought half a pound of spelt and a gill of wine to his house, which was handily enough on the Citadel, which is obviously meant to be a huge sacrifice, because the Romans don’t have a ton of provisions at this moment in time, so he would presumably appreciate this more than anything else, but the bad performance is, Dr G, uh oh, what to do with not just the dogs but the men who were supposed to be on watch? I mean, guys, guys. Guys. How did you let this happen? This is kind of your one job.

Dr G 49:25
You telling me you delegated to the geese.

Dr Rad 49:30
So a tribune named Quintus Sulpicius said, I’m going to punish you all in the military fashion. Now I’m not really given any more details than that, but I presume that might mean something like decimation.

Dr G 49:45
I didn’t know they had decimation at this point in time, but it doesn’t sound pleasant look.

Dr Rad 49:49
I’m not sure exactly what that means. Is it? I mean, maybe it just means death, like in the military fashion,

Dr G 49:54
it might be a whipping of some kind. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re being scouged with. Odds, for instance, that might be a military punishment at this point, because we don’t have a formalized military that’s true. It does make it hard to know what the military punishment would be, because this is not something that has tended to come up so far. It might be too early for decimation, but it also

Dr Rad 50:17
might not look decimation was just my guess as I was reading this because I was like, What does in the military fashion mean? I mean, look, I think we can safely say not pleasant, not something you want to happen to you.

Dr G 50:28
Yeah, obviously, yeah, if you think about the military, what’s something that you don’t want to happen to you as a military person? Many things.

Dr Rad 50:36
Yeah, exactly. But all the soldiers protest and say, no, no, no, that is, pardon the pun, but overkill. You don’t need to go that far. And they basically decide that they’re going to throw one guy under the bus completely. Wow, yeah, they’re like, it’s all his fault. All his fault. Don’t worry, listeners, Livy assures me that he completely deserves it. It definitely was entirely this guy’s fault, and so he is held off the top of a rock in punishment. Wow.

Dr G 51:09
Throw him down on top of the dead Gauls. That’s where he deserves to be. Look.

Dr Rad 51:15
I presume that is what Livy means. But I must admit, there have been some accounts that I have read that also seem to suggest that maybe Livy is referring to being hurled off the Tarpeian rock, which does happen to people as punishment in ancient Rome. But Dr, G, you know the geography of Rome, and you, I don’t think will believe this.

Dr G 51:38
I find that unlikely. I mean, yes, we do have the Tarpeian rock. Is a classic rock to throw people off, but the Romans are in a siege situation, and they’re confined to the Capitoline hill. So the idea that they would be able to get through the Gaulish forces all the way across to where the Tarpeian rock is and throw this guy off the specific rock that they like to throw people off, rather than the rock that they have that they’re on top of right now, which they’ve been defending for their lives. Seems unlikely at best.

Dr Rad 52:08
Well, I guess it would be very symbolic to hurl a Roman who you regard as having really broken his trust with the people to like, throw him down on top of the dead.

Dr G 52:19
Gauls, yeah. Serves him right. Yeah, you’re as good as the enemy to us, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, after the fall of the rock, yes.

Dr Rad 52:29
So this whole section of the account wraps up for me with Livy noting, as one might expect, that the guards for the Romans and the Gauls are now on much higher alert after these nighttime shenanigans.

Dr G 52:41
Well, well, well, maybe we do need to pay attention.

Dr Rad 52:44
Yeah, and the Gauls have definitely picked up on the fact that there is, I think, some communication going on between they and Rome. They’ve picked up on that. They saw the cork, and they were like, hang on a second. There’s only one reason for a piece of cork to be floating in the Tiber. And the Romans, of course, have almost just lost everything, so they’re like, We need to, like, pick up our game, guys. We need to get the show on the road.

Dr G 53:10
Yeah, look, I swear. Look, I’ve seen some cork, and I’m pretty sure it’s from Veii. What, man, but we’re besieging Rome. I know. Isn’t that virtus?

Dr Rad 53:23
In your account, it may be this that opens the negotiations, but in my account, we’re all about to be in for famine and pestilence. Oh, goody, yes, yes, no one shall be spared.

Dr G 53:41
Chapter Two, a siege is not a siege until you have famine and pestilence

Dr Rad 53:45
indeed, and that Dr G is where I would like to lay my hat. Ooh, the suspense. I haven’t been podcasting for 13 years without learning a trick or two about suspense.

Dr G 54:00
Well, I guess that means it is time for the partial pick.

Dr Rad 54:10
It is indeed, Dr G, can you please explain to our listeners what the partial pick is all about?

Dr G 54:15
Well, Rome has their chance to win 50 gold eagles, 10 Eagles each across five categories. I would say that the Romans made up these categories, but they didn’t. We did. We thought about them when we made them up, and maybe that will help.

Dr Rad 54:31
So what is our first category? Dr, G,

Dr G 54:33
our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 54:38
This is very tough because there has actually been a little bit of military success on the Roman side, in some ways, it just depends how you look at it. They have apparently dealt with some marauding Etruscans in the region of they and been victorious there, largely because they follow the Camillus blueprint and then. They have also managed to beat off an attempt by the goals to break the siege.

Dr G 55:06
That’s true, cutting off a few hands, pushing people back with shields. Yeah, yeah. I mean that in a siege, that’s kind of as good as it gets, apart from busting out of the siege itself is resisting the attack on your location. So I guess maybe a five,

Dr Rad 55:25
wow, a five. That is uncharacteristically generous.

Dr G 55:29
Well, I’m thinking like, how hard is it to have a military clout moment when you’re in Siege conditions? And I’d say it’s probably pretty difficult, because one you’ve either got to summon up the courage to do an attack yourself. So leaving your defenses and going down and engaging directly, that would be more military clout, I would say, but to sort of take on the sort of the pillaging roaming camps of the Etruscans when you’ve got a split force, and also to defend yourself successfully, although, I mean, you did have to rely on the geese. Yeah?

Dr Rad 56:06
Yeah. I was gonna say, I feel like I can’t believe I’m saying this, me of all people, but I feel like five is too generous.

Dr G 56:12
I feel like the geese deserve 10, yeah, but maybe the Romans deserve less than five, now that I’m thinking about it, yeah.

Dr Rad 56:19
I kind of feel like maybe a three or four, because, like, it’s something, but they are still kind of slowly starving to death on the capital,

Dr G 56:29
okay. Well, if we’re measuring it by that, it’s a three,

Dr Rad 56:34
all right, so three, it is, all right.

Dr G 56:36
The second category is diplomacy,

Dr Rad 56:39
hmm, well, I think we agreed that diplomacy has to be something in between Roman foreign powers, because whilst there is definitely some secret messaging going on between the Romans and their fellow Romans, I don’t think that counts.

Dr G 56:55
No, that is not diplomacy. That’s a zero, yeah. Zero, okay.

Dr Rad 57:00
Expansion, I feel like this is going to be a continual zero for some time. That’s a no. Wirtus, huh? Well, I think Manlius definitely would meet some of the criteria for that with his actions in bravely waking everybody up and thrusting swords into their hands and then single handedly cutting off the hands, of course, until the Romans are awake enough to join him and help him.

Dr G 57:32
Yes, that is that is definitely a classic military style weird to us. I would love to give Cominius Pontius some points for virtus, but I’m not sure that sneaking around in the middle of the night and not being seen and having a cork board as a bit of a floaty counts as weird to us.

Dr Rad 57:49
Okay, well, what about in my account? Gaius Fabius Dorsuo, hmm. I mean, it’s more piety, I suppose, than virtus.

Dr G 57:57
But yeah, I don’t think it counts because it sits in the wrong category.

Dr Rad 58:02
He does have to walk through, apparently, an entire Gallic army to get to the criminal.

Dr G 58:08
Yeah, it’s awkward, but what you got to do, I suppose, is it weirdos. I don’t think so. Okay, fair enough. So that leaves us with Manlius as our standout character.

Dr Rad 58:17
And then it seems very appropriate that his name is Manlius when we’re talking about when we’re talking about weirdos.

Dr G 58:18
But he’s only capable of demonstrating that in the face of the geese. So it’s not like he spotted the Gauls coming up the

Dr Rad 58:32
cliff. Well, once he woke up, he spotted them.

Dr G 58:36
I see it all now. Thanks, Juno. I don’t know, maybe a four, what?

Dr Rad 58:44
No, I’m sorry you were gonna give the Romans a five for military clout when all they’d really done is fend off an attack whilst they were under a very serious siege. And they also happened to spot some Etruscans like raiding when they were at Veii and under no real threat. Absolutely not. It has to be a five,

Dr G 59:07
okay, all right, fine. I will accept five. Thank you. Our final rating is for the citizen score. Well, there aren’t

Dr Rad 59:19
really any citizens left it. They’re all in Veii or somewhere in the countryside.

Dr G 59:25
Yeah, it’s not looking great or dead. So I guess it’s a it’s a zero.

Dr Rad 59:31
I think it has to be a zero for now, hopefully things will start to turn around for the Romans soon.

Dr G 59:36
Yeah, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that the citizens are having a good time in any way. I mean,

Dr Rad 59:41
look, the only consideration I will throw in here is that, I guess with Camillus technically being appointed dictator in this episode, I can’t believe that hasn’t come up in the partial pic, maybe there’s some hope, because there are some Romans at Veii. They’re probably having a good time. They’re at the spa rejuvenating.

Dr G 59:59
That’s right, yeah, yeah. I can’t forget those guys. Yeah. It’s not clear to me that anybody’s having a good time as a citizen. So and it’s hard to when it’s a siege, yeah, and your city is basically, yeah, you’re either there on rations or you’re out in the countryside hoping that somebody will take you in without killing you. You’re very vulnerable.

Dr Rad 1:00:20
Yeah, yeah. This is true, yeah. I mean, like the people at a might be okay, but they’re still not at Rome.

Dr G 1:00:27
This is true, and though, but though maybe they don’t want to be foreshadowing, foreshadowing, foreshadowing, all

Dr Rad 1:00:32
right, so it’s probably zero, then, yeah, okay, well, Dr G, that means that I have only had to use my two hands to count again, because the Romans have finished with eight out of 50 golden eagles.

Dr G 1:00:46
Wow, congratulations, Rome scraping in at the bottom of the barrel. Not a surprise, given they’re in a siege.

Dr Rad 1:00:53
I was gonna say that guy wasn’t really expecting high scores throughout 390 BCE and I have not been disappointed.

Dr G 1:01:00
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure to discuss Ancient Rome with you. Dr Rad, as always,

Dr Rad 1:01:06
thank you. Dr G and I would like to finish up because we have talked a lot about animals during this episode, just reminding people, please be kind to your pets. They are part of your family. And also, if you feel like it, maybe donate to help some pet rescues. They’re really under increasing pressure these days, particularly in Australia. Right now, as we’re recording, it is kitten season, and they’re being absolutely inundated. A lot of these people have full time jobs and help out with these sorts of rescue operations in their spare time, whilst they’re juggling families and all the other responsibilities that we all have. And of course, there are also lots of working animals in the world that don’t have great conditions to live in and maybe go a little bit more plant based in your diet, because Factory Farming isn’t great either. The Romans may not have been fantastic when it came to animal welfare, but I’m not always sure that our society is much better.

Dr G 1:02:02
Yeah, I would definitely advocate for including more plants in your diet where possible. That is, I’d say number one, the easiest way to support animals. And yeah, I think we both donate to Cat shelters and things like that.

Dr Rad 1:02:16
So I definitely do quite a number of them. But yeah, I do sense the desperation for a lot of rescuers, and I really feel for them. So speaking about the crucifixion of dogs, just got me in mind that, yeah, if we all pitch together, hopefully we can stop these kind of places, to be honest, being necessary, because they’re really only necessary when human beings are irresponsible, all right. Dr, G until next time, I’ll catch you soon.

Dr Rad 1:02:51
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of the Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive. To find more from the Memory Collective, head to collective mem.com you can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko Fi. But you can also support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. Today, we would like to send a special shout out to Kent Johnson for not only supporting us on Kofi, but Patreon as well. However, if you aren’t feeling particularly patrician these days, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome.

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