Who is Servius Romanus you might ask? Well, in this episode we’re about to find out. But when we tell you it’ll be brief – we are telling only the truth! On the back of the putative introduction of pay for Roman soldiers in 406 BCE (a much disputed idea in scholarship), Rome is facing challenges from their neighbours. These challenges are coming from many directions, so it’s no doubt a relief when someone helps them out. Enter: Servius Romanus.

Episode 149 – The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus

Watch out Veii, Rome is coming for you! Veii seems to be well aware of the Roman threat, however, and might just be looking to call in the broader Etruscan peoples to support them. How will things pan out for Veii in the years 405 and 404? We consider the fairly limited details for your listening pleasure.

Rome is facing trouble on multiple fronts (perhaps indicated by the sheer number of military tribunes with consular power listed for both the years 405 and 404). It comes as no surprise that pursuing an aggressive policy against Veii opens the way for more conflict from the Volscii. Listen out for mentions of places including Ferentium, Ecetra, and Artena.

Aerial photograph of the modern town of Artena in Lazio, Italy.
Photo by FrancescoSchiraldi85 via Wikimedia Commons.

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Painted terracotta Etruscan antefix depicting the head of Medusa. From the Portonaccio Temple at Veii, c. 510 BCE.
Held in National Etruscan Museum of Villa Giulia, Rome.
Photo by Carole Raddato via Flickr.

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:02
And I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:04
Welcome back, everybody! We are getting so very close to the turn of the century. Here, we’re edging our way closer and closer with every episode. In fact, I think this episode, we’re going to do two years in one episode, I’m just I just have a feeling.

Dr G 1:21
Look, I definitely have that feeling. But that might be because I have so many gaps in my source material.

Dr Rad 1:28
You’re not alone. I don’t have much in my particular source material this time. But we’re excited to be talking once more about ancient Rome listeners, and what was happening at this particularly interesting time in their history.

Dr G 1:43
It is 405 BCE. And that’s where we’ll, that’s where we’ll be starting out in this.

Dr Rad 1:50
But before we do that, Dr. G, I think we need to do a bit of a recap, because the last year was pretty significant.

Dr G 1:58
It was, but I’ll level with you. I can’t really remember. But I think that’s my source material.

Dr Rad 2:04
That’s the best way to remember that something was important!

Dr G 2:08
It was all about the vibe. Wasn’t it?

Dr Rad 2:10
Okay. So whilst there are, obviously, you know, some questions that we had, if we’re going to believe the account that we have from Livy, who is our major narrative source at this point for ancient Roman history, it was the year that military pay was introduced. That’s what we were talking about last time. Finally, there was an actual kind of more or less state funded military pay that was introduced in the previous episode, and everyone lost their collective minds.

Dr G 2:43
They did, because we also have what amounts to a dual or triple military sort of pronged situation where the Volscii are causing an issue. The Aequians might be also a problem. And then there’s also the issue with Veii.

Dr Rad 2:58
Yes, the Etruscans once again, rearing their ugly heads in the north.

Dr G 3:04
And I think we should put a big asterisk next to soldiers pay, because this seems to be in at best, maybe a one off payment for some difficult conditions being faced, and potentially the need to overwinter in a location rather than return home, stay warm at home and nice and cozy, and then go back out in springtime, which is the usual way that Roman campaigning seems to have operated.

Dr Rad 3:32
Yes, this is a chilly money situation. It may not even be money –

Dr G 3:37
Show me that cold hard cash!

Dr Rad 3:39
Yeah because I will be cold. Yeah, no. It might not even be money. Obviously, it might be goods of some kind, obviously, food, food resources, food related resources.

Dr G 3:52
Nevertheless, it might set an exciting precedent for what soldiers might expect in the future.

Dr Rad 3:58
Oh, absolutely. As hard as we know, it’s always hard to put a genie back in a bottle, Dr G. So whilst there are a lot of questions about how are they getting paid? Why were they getting paid? Were they even getting paid? Livy tells us that they were and that they were just so excited about the idea. And of course, the only people that were holding back a little bit were the tribune of the plebs. They were suspicious from the get go.

Dr G 4:27
Probably rightly, so. I’ll give them that.

Dr Rad 4:29
Yeah, and that’s because we kind of started out 406 last episode with this conflict with they starting to rev up. But nobody really having the enthusiasm or the energy to go and deal with it because they were already, as you say, fighting other enemies and dealing with other issues, and they were just kind of over it. But this whole military pay scenario and the way that the patricians handled it in particular, has really won them over and they’re so excited that the Romans were able to declare war on they and have basically like a full volunteer army like there’s no talk about the levy and that sort of thing. Ready to go.

Dr G 5:10
People are like, ‘Payment? Sign me up, I’m in.’

Dr Rad 5:12
Oh, absolutely they were like, ‘Hell yeah. Because, if you’re going to pay me, I’m absolutely there.’

Dr G 5:17
Wait a minute.

Dr Rad 5:19
Yeah. I mean that to be fair, that’s that’s kind of my line as well.

Dr G 5:23
Fair enough. Yeah. All right. So that means it is time to turn our attention to 405 BCE.

Dr Rad 5:31
Certainly is.

All right, Dr. G. Now, I know that Dionysius has left you after some creative differences.

Dr G 6:09
We disagreed on whether he should leave his fragments behind for posterity and he just absolutely refused.

Dr Rad 6:16
I know that you probably know who the magistrates are, at least, so thanks to Broughton.

Dr G 6:23
Ah, dear Broughton, where would I be without Broughton’s superior work? So apparently, and things are starting to feel a little chaotic from a magisterial perspective. Because apparently, we have six military tributes with consular power for the year 405, which is a lot, maybe too many. And so I’m going to give you a whole list of Latin names and everybody listening – and us – are going to feel slightly bad. Get ready for it. Get ready for it, because none of these names actually mean anything. Because I have no other source material. So I don’t know what sort of weight to give them. Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus

Dr Rad 7:05
Familiar, familiar

Dr G 7:07
Previously consul in 421. So must be getting on a little bit now.

Dr Rad 7:12
I was going to say the Quinctii are definitely a family that we know well.

Dr G 7:17
They are. And we also have Quintus Quinctius Cincinnatus who previously military tribunes with consular power in 415. So two Quinctii already

Dr Rad 7:29
And not the famous Cincinnatus. This would be someone from that branch.

Dr G 7:35
Yeah, we’re done with famous Cincinatii for now.

Dr Rad 7:38
Yeah, he’s dead. Yeah.

Dr G 7:40
He’s gone. Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus

Dr Rad 7:44
Ooo a Iulii.

Dr G 7:48
Indeed. And a recent military tribute and as well from 408.

Dr Rad 7:53
True, very true.

Dr G 7:56
Aulus Manlius Vulso Capitolinus

Ahhh the manly Manlii.

Watch out for this guy. He’s on the up and up. Lucius Furius Medullinus.

Dr Rad 8:11
Excellent. Gotta have some Furii in there.

Dr G 8:13
You certainly do, and a very illustrious one as well. So he was previously consul in 413, and 409. And also military tribune with consular power in 407. And is in the middle of a career, so he’s going to come up again and again. And finally, we have Manius Aemilius Mamercinus, or Mamercus? There seems to be some confusion.

Dr Rad 8:40
There always is with this guy.

Dr G 8:43
This guy, yeah. Consul in 410. And we’ll also have some future since as well coming up. So some pretty familiar names, I would say, I don’t think anybody sort of stands out as being really unusual here, except maybe Vulso Capitolinus. But yeah, there’s just a lot of them, which suggests that Rome has got a lot of military issues where they want commanders in the field.

Dr Rad 9:12
I think that’s how we should probably read this, given what we know is happening in the background. But it’s also really interesting to say this, because it’s really like a who’s who of the famous gens – the clans – of ancient Rome at this point in time. These are these are families that have just come up again and again.

Dr G 9:29
Yeah, they’re all the big families. All of them have had previous positions. None of them are new families to these kinds of roles. So we’ve got a sense in which there is an elite that has really established itself over the course of this first century of the early republic, as far as our records take us. And we have to admit that they’re kind of sketchy, I guess. So. Yeah. For instance, the Fasti Capitolini is the big inscription that we tend to refer to to get these names from initial late, but we understand that the Fasti Capitolini was a late creation.

Dr Rad 10:06
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 10:07
And we’re not sure what documentation it was necessarily leveraged from? Was it from linen scrolls? Or is it from other inscriptions? Was it from family oral histories? So, I mean, the big questions are still there to be asked what is going on? And I feel like Livy is going to have the answers.

Dr Rad 10:26
Well, look, we do have a fairly big event for this year, but not a lot of detail at the moment. Okay, we’re gonna have a banner year in 403. 405 and 404 are important just for the build up towards that point. So basically, what Livy tells me is that we’ve got all these different military tribunes and these are the guys that start the siege of they the first siege of Veii, so Veii being this Etruscan city that Rome has particular beef with probably because geographically, they just come into contact a lot more than some of the other Etruscan city. So they start this siege, not long after the beginning of the sage, the Etruscans come together to have one of their federal meetings. Now, just a refresher, in case you have forgotten, the Etruscans not all ruled by you know, like one major city or one person or even one group of people. As far as we can see a trust can share, you know, kind of like a cultural, linguistic connection with each other. But, you know, they can come together and unite. But there are 12 major cities that kind of form the basis of Etruria to the north of Rome.

Dr G 11:53
Yeah, so they tend to have what we think are 12 kings, so 12 regal representatives. And in a way you can think of Rome having gone through a similar kind of process, with having a king very localized the king of the place. Yes, and what Etruria has done is to sort of harness that kind of leadership into a broad coalition.

Dr Rad 12:15
Exactly. Yeah.

Dr G 12:16
And you might see this as similar to the what the Latin people were also doing. So we know that Alba Longa, up in the mountains to the south east of Rome had a king, for instance. So this idea of really localized magisterial power is not new for the whole Italian Peninsula. But the way the Etruscans are able to harness it into a coalition does seem to be a little bit more fruitful for them than it is for other groups within Italy.

Dr Rad 12:45
Yes, exactly. And we have talked about them having these group meetings before, so I kind of like to think of them as being like Power Rangers. They come together, and they discuss, ‘Is it morphing time? Is it?’ So in this particular instance, we know that over the past sort of, you know, 50 years in particular, there have been some pretty epic clashes between they and drone. And we know there have been instances where the Etruscans have come together to talk about how involve everyone else should get in these clashes between their environment. This is again, one of those moments, where they meet at this place called the shrine of Voltumna. So again, we’ve mentioned this place before, when we’ve talked about these meetings, it seems to be their favorite hang. It’s their Central Perk, if you will. Now, you’re probably going to ask me, Dr. G. Where is this shrine? I cannot tell you.

Dr G 13:41
Oh, no, come on.

Dr Rad 13:43
I know. So we don’t know an awful lot about either the goddess Voltumna, who is associated with this particular shrine, we know she’s a very early Etruscan goddess, we know that there seems to be some sort of connection between her and the Volsinii or the Volscini. So presumably, somewhere in their region, their part of the world, but we really have no firm idea of where this particular shrine was. And we don’t know an awful lot about her as a goddess, we just know that this is obviously an important place for the Etruscans to come together and it gets mentioned a few times.

Dr G 14:23
All right, so they get together this shrine of Voltumna, goddess of the unknown, to see about what they’re gonna do. Sounds exciting so far.

Dr Rad 14:33
Yes, exactly. So there’s heaps of people at this meeting as they’re discussing whether they should get involved and make this a wider Etruscan versus Rome showdown, or whether they should just let they deal with it themselves.

Dr G 14:47
Do we come together and grind Rome under the Etrurian heel? Or do we just let they try to navigate this situation?

Dr Rad 14:55
Well, we can probably understand why they’re a little bit should we because lest we forget this all apparently started because the people have they suddenly were very rude to. And so maybe the dress codes don’t want to go to war because the people have a had bad manners.

Dr G 15:16
And that should never be rewarded.

Dr Rad 15:18
Exactly, exactly. So they’re very unsure. They’re going backwards and forwards and they’re, they’re really not sure what they want to do. Meanwhile, the siege that the Romans have started against Veii doesn’t really go anywhere, because some of the military tribunes as well as a portion of the Roman forces had to go and leave to deal with the Volscians. And it was like, ‘Come on, Volscians we’re sieging here, we’re sieging here!’

Dr G 15:46
Oh, Rome, nothing is gonna let down a siege more than moving your troops away from the siege position.

Dr Rad 15:53
It is siege rules of warfare 101. And that’s really all I’ve got for 405, Dr. G.

Dr G 16:03
Intriguing. Okay. Now, the things that I do have for 405 do not pertain to Rome in any way, shape, or form. I have Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad 16:14
Oh, okay.

Dr G 16:15
And as we know, he’s a little bit untrustworthy at times, but he’s trying to do a universal history of the Mediterranean. And Rome isn’t where it’s at right now. He knows that, the Romans don’t. And so he generally speaking doesn’t have a lot to say about them. But he does have some things to say about the unfolding situation in Sicily, and what’s going on with the Carthaginians. Because Sicily has on the eastern coast of Sicily, it is now under the control of a tyrant called Dionysius. And that’s fine, clearly a Greek. But he now wants to take the war to Carthage. Now the Greeks and the Carthaginians have been squabbling over Sicily for a while. And that’s fine. But now we start to learn more about this tyrants character, right. And he’s not just willing to take Carthage on, he wants to sort of launch an offensive rather than waiting for the Carthaginians to come to Sicily, he’s like that, we got to take the fight to that. And then he’s like, ‘how am I going to raise the morale of my people in order to bring this about?’ And so he gets down in the trenches, basically, and starts putting in the hard yards to help build defensive walls. And to put in the work required just in case the Carthaginians do turn up before he’s able to do the offensive. So there’s a sense in which he’s building his charismatic profile as a Greek tyrant in Sicily, and the people like he’s out in the field, he’s building a wall. Look at those, Look at those well oiled arms.

Dr Rad 17:53
Now, we should just say that generally people shouldn’t feel excited about a political leader building a wall.

Dr G 18:01
I wouldn’t recommend it generally.

Dr Rad 18:02
No, no, it’s very different in ancient times.

Dr G 18:05
In ancient times, the wall is a pretty good idea. In modern times, I wouldn’t, I’m not on the side of the wall. But nevertheless, he seems to recruit this reputation for one being willing to be part of the building process, which I can’t foresee in this modern period ever really quite happening. But yeah, that’s it. That’s all I’ve got. I did not know about the shrine of Voltumna, although I’m going to look her up because that sounds really interesting to me.

Dr Rad 18:36
Definitely.

Dr G 18:38
And that’s it, there’s nothing going on. There’s nothing going on.

Dr Rad 18:41
There’s nothing going on apart from a siege that has stalled and presumably, we’ve got some more conflict with the Volscii on the horizon, so let’s transition into 404 BCE.

So Dr. G, do we have as many military tribunes with consular power for 404 as we did for 405?

Dr G 19:29
Oh, Look, it’s a mess. There’s six more military tribunes with consular power. And again, I don’t have heaps of detail to give you but I mean, I do have slightly more than I had last year. So it’s good news. But like let’s get through this epic list of names. We have Gaius Valerius Potitus Volusus consul of 410, military tribune with consular power in 415. Manius Sergius Fidenas: we’re not sure about his exact name. So Livy apparently has Marcus as the praenomen. But the Fasti Capitolini lists the abbreviation M with the apostrophe, which is Manius. So there could be some discrepancies there in our source material. We have Publius Cornelius Maluginensis.

Dr Rad 20:25
Oh that’s a horrible name. Maluginensis.

Dr G 20:30
Maluginensis. Hmmm, yeah. When and we’re not really quite sure how this particular Cornelii fits into the broad again structure, either. Not really. It’s a bit of doubt about where this figure fits in. Nevertheless, we have a Cornelii in here. We have a second Cornelii in Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus,

Dr Rad 20:53
Ah one of the Cossii.

Dr G 20:54
Yeah, and very familiar as well, was military tribune in 406.

Dr Rad 20:59
Yes, yes.

Dr G 21:01
Then we have Kaeso Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 21:04
Ooo a fabulous Fabian.

Dr G 21:05
Yeah, so fabulous Fabian, and they still seem to be some discrepancy about the praenomen of this guy as well. Some people see it as Gaius. So that would be the C abbreviation. And sometimes it’s the K abbreviation for Kaeso.

Dr Rad 21:25
That is unusual.

Dr G 21:27
It is unusual. And it means that we might actually be dealing with two different people, right? Is this Kaeso? Or is this Gaius? Later on we’re going to have somebody with a very similar name, but a different praenomen. And so we’re not sure two people, maybe one person with two heads.

Dr Rad 21:44
One of these is just like the other.

Dr G 21:49
And lastly, Spurius Nautius Rutilus, who was consul in 411 and military tribune with consular power in 419 and 416. So a lot of a lot of names. But what is going on?

Dr Rad 22:06
I know, I know, it’s a lot. Okay. So there is definitely some military action in 404. Let’s start with the Volscians because of course, they had to interrupt this seige against Veii to go and deal with them. So there was a big pitched battle with the Volscians between Ferentium and Ecetra, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr G 22:30
Okay.

Dr Rad 22:31
And the Romans were victorious.

Dr G 22:35
Intriguing.

Dr Rad 22:37
I know they’ve been doing pretty well against the Volscians of late. The tribunes then decided they were going to besiege a Volscian town, one Artena.

Dr G 22:49
Ah, yes, now I do have some details on Artena.

Dr Rad 22:52
Excellent.

Dr G 22:55
Now, unfortunately, it is one of these places, like so many in the ancient world, where we do not know the location of it. But there is a modern town called Artena, which is about 40 kilometers south east of Rome.

Dr Rad 23:11
Okay, that sounds kind of about right.

Dr G 23:14
It sounds kind of about right. Yeah. And the reason it sounds kind of about right, is because that this place changed its name in the 1870s, based on the theory that it was the location of the ancient Volscian town. So this town was known as Montefortino for many years. So a completely different name.

Dr Rad 23:38
Oh, I actually have heard of that place. I have no idea why. But I have, yeah.

Dr G 23:42
And they got this idea that maybe it was the location of the ancient Artena. So then they changed their whole town’s name to reflect that. So it’s a bit of a furphy because we’re still not sure.

Dr Rad 23:56
Well, that’s confidence. Yeah.

Dr G 23:59
And it’s also the case that this modern town of Artena is also speculated to be one of the potential locations for the Volscian city of Ecetra.

Dr Rad 24:09
Right. Okay.

Dr G 24:10
So, we don’t – to add confusion into the mix. The geography is all over the place.

Dr Rad 24:18
Yeah. That seems to be the theme that we’re talking about places that we don’t know where they are. All right, so the Romans do this by doing a bit of a sortie against Artena. This this place that apparently does not exist. The Volscians were therefore driven all the way back into the city by the Romans, the Romans were able to penetrate the city and they were able to capture everything except the citadel of Artena.

Dr G 24:50
Wow, okay. That’s pretty devastating for the Volscii, I would say.

Dr Rad 24:54
It is, but it does mean that it’s not quite the complete victory that the Romans would want. They’ve got A bunch of warriors that are holed up in the citadel. So the Romans have to then besieged the citadel.

Dr G 25:06
Oh, no!

Dr Rad 25:08
I know no matter what they tried Dr. G, they just could not win. The people inside. I mean, what’s, what’s their motivation, I suppose for giving up at this point in time, they’re not going to surrender, they’re going to stay there until the end, they had very cleverly move the town’s green supply inside the citadel before the Romans had arrived. So they’re also not going to starve to death super quickly, apparently.

Dr G 25:37
Okay, this spells bad news for Rome. Not only do they have their ongoing yet kind of failing siege with Veii, they’re now in a situation where they’re trying to besiege somewhere else, which has got a really clear food supply. And when we’re thinking about the ancient world, I think we have to keep in mind that food supply and food security is a really big concern.

Dr Rad 26:02
Absolutely.

Dr G 26:03
So I think in our modern age of like, hyper convenience and food availability, that we don’t tend to think about this in terms of the the worry and concern and the ongoing engagement with food supply, that would have been part and parcel of the ancient world.

Dr Rad 26:22
Definitely. But I mean, I think the interesting thing is, as we often talk about that, that will probably change. Climate change is going to affect what we can grow, where we can grow it, I mean, it already I shouldn’t say is going to affect it is already affecting our ability to grow things. Like for example, if you’re a fan of wine, I know that there are certain regions in the world that have had to change the types of grapes that they use, because the previous types of grapes can’t grow in the warmer climates that now exists. But eventually, you know, it’s going to get too warm to grow things anyway. So it’s just going to be one of those things that we are going to have to I think engage with because, yeah, it is going to become part of our reality. And that’s also applies to things like the damaging fishing practices that we use are damaging agricultural practices that we use. We have at the moment, sure, plenty of food in certain parts of the world. But that’s not going to remain the case unless we start paying more attention to where our food comes from and how it is produced.

Dr G 27:21
Indeed, exactly. I echo your sentiments.

Dr Rad 27:26
Anyway, to return to this particular citadel with its grain supply. So the Romans obviously wanted to capture this place, lock, stock and barrel. They don’t want to give up with a citadel. You know, still being held on to that’s not going to be the victory that they’re after. So they’re in a terrible mood, because they’re like, ‘God, dammit, we’ve done so well up until this point. The citadel is just a thorn in our side.’ But then a slave betrayed the people inside the citadel.

Dr G 27:59
Gasp how dare they?

Dr Rad 28:01
I feel like we’ve had stories a bit like this before doesn’t mean that they’re not true. Obviously, it makes sense that things would play out in this way, but…

It is a bit of a literary trope as well, isn’t it?

It is it is. Yeah. So the slave apparently allowed some of the Roman soldiers inside by showing them Sure, a more difficult, steeper approach, but like an alternative route that they weren’t perhaps aware of, or thought that they could use because it was a little bit more challenging. And so as a result, the Romans were able to capture the citadel, they killed all of the sentries, and the rest of the people obviously, who were left inside the citadel, were just so freaked out that the Romans suddenly appear in their midst that they surrender without too much more of a fight.

Dr G 28:47
Wow. Okay, so the slave’s like, ‘So if you’re partial to being a bit of a mountain goat, yeah, I can show you the secret entry.’

Dr Rad 28:56
Exactly. I thought. Yeah, so this is obviously good news for the Romans. Perhaps this next bit explains why we aren’t entirely sure where Artena is because the Romans apparently demolish the entire town, paying particularly close attention to the pesky citadel in the process.

Dr G 29:16
Well, well, well, somebody needs to write a stern letter to modern Artena and be like, ‘Excuse me, you were destroyed.’

Dr Rad 29:24
Exactly. Yeah, the Romans were so annoyed by that whole situation that they tore it apart brick by brick.

Dr G 29:31
Fair enough.

Dr Rad 29:32
So with that done, the Romans feel like they can officially leave Volscian territory and they can now fully dedicate themselves to this conflict with Veii.

Dr G 29:44
All right, okay, so the siege is back on.

Dr Rad 29:47
Well, I don’t know that this siege was ever off. It was more just said it was maybe it wasn’t getting all their attention and taking on they you know, the Romans know that they’re not a pushover, so they they probably need to throw everything they’ve got at it, you know?

Dr G 30:02
Yeah. And Veii seems to be in a pretty defensive position, it sort of jumps out on a bit of a ledge. So it’s not like it’s an easy place to just rock up and take, you’re definitely going to have to spend some time figuring out how to take it.

Dr Rad 30:18
Yes, exactly. Now, as for our slave who helped the Romans to achieve this victory, they were apparently, I should say, he was apparently given his freedom, and given the name Servilius Romanus, plus the property of two families as a reward for his betrayal.

Dr G 30:41
Oh, how strange.

Dr Rad 30:43
I know, I know. This is kind of an interesting little naming thing for us. Because that name, it’s obviously trying to make us try to give him a name so that he would fit in with the kids on the playground, you know, he’s got like a Latin name. But it is obviously signaling something about where he came from. In theory. Now, there’s, as we know, there’s huge amounts of discussion about the name Servilius, because one of the kings of Rome had that same name. And we know it doesn’t necessarily mean that you were a slave.

Dr G 31:17
But there are a hints, like, it’s that sort of thing where it’s like, you’ve got a like a little bit of a rhyme, you’ve got like a sound connection. So you might be able to say, strictly speaking, doesn’t mean that they’re a slave. But when you say their name, everybody’s gonna think it.

Dr Rad 31:34
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And it might be indicating something about the origin. You know, like, not everybody in the family obviously, is a slave. But it might be saying something about where the fame the family came from. So this particular name, Servilius, Romanus that’s giving a fairly clear idea of what this guy’s origins were.

Dr G 31:53
Like, ‘Sure, you can stay with us and be free. What we’re going to call you though, is a slave of Rome.’

Dr Rad 31:58
Yes, exactly.

Dr G 32:00
That’s your name.

Dr Rad 32:01
That’s your name now. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 32:03
Like, ‘Oh, gee, thanks, guys. I feel so free.’

Dr Rad 32:07
Now, there is a bit of discussion, actually, in Livy himself about the confusion about Artena and its location.

Dr G 32:15
Okay, well, that does not surprise me at all.

Dr Rad 32:18
Yeah, so apparently, some people thought that Artena was actually part of Veii’s territory, not Volscian territory.

Dr G 32:26
That would be awkward for the people who have named their modern town Artena.

Dr Rad 32:32
I know, Livy, however, does not believe this, because whilst there was a city, more towards the north that had the same name, it was apparently demolish under the Roman kings.

Dr G 32:47
Okay, well, that’s even more unusual.

Dr Rad 32:51
I know. I know. So there’s just a huge amount of confusion about this particular place. Some scholars have even suggested that maybe it shouldn’t be ARtena, but ORtena?

Dr G 33:02
Wow. I’m not gonna wait into that debate. OR not maybe.

Dr Rad 33:09
Yeah, exactly. I think we can just safely say, nobody has any idea where this is. We simply do not have the evidence. No, but I think it does make sense that, you know, this is a little Volscian conflict. You know, it makes sense that wherever they were fighting, it was the Volscians they were fighting at this point in time.

Dr G 33:30
And also that sense in which Rome’s forces are split. So they’re trying to do things on a number of different places. And that means that their chances of success in any place is compromised, because their forces are stretched thin.

Dr Rad 33:48
Yes, exactly. Now, that kind of wraps up for for, for me, they both pretty brief years, we can start 403 if you would like and it’s a pretty monster year.

Dr G 34:00
I think we should save 403.

Dr Rad 34:02
Okay.

Dr G 34:03
Because it is it is an epic time to embark upon. And I think the I want to savour that.

Dr Rad 34:12
Fair enough. That’s fair. No, it is going to be a bit of a gigantic year, I think but definitely

Dr G 34:16
Foreshadowing, foreshadowing

Dr Rad 34:17
For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think we can say by the sudden increase in the amount of military tribunes with consular power, we can see what’s happening for Rome at this point in time.

Dr G 34:28
So the only other detail I have to add to any of this is that Diodorus Siculus does hint that there is an increase in the number of colonists that Rome sends to a city called Velitrae.

Dr Rad 34:43
Oh, okay. We did we have talked about Velitrae, yeah.

Dr G 34:46
Yeah, so this is a Latin city. It’s in the southern foothills of the Albian Hills, which are the ones just just to the southeast of Rome. You can see them from the city and this means that maybe trying to like, establish a greater foothold in that area. It’s not at all clear why they would be doing that, at this stage, particularly when they’ve got forces stretched over a number of different battle fronts. But nevertheless, this is a little detail that we’re given. So Velitrae is part of the broader Latin league in 498. And then then it’s conquered by the Romans in 494. And from that point onwards, it’s a Roman colony, apparently. So even though there’s some tussles and disputes they seem to be trying to reinforce an area, which is a little bit closer to Volscian territory, as well, potentially.

Dr Rad 35:41
I remembered reading about that. And I just suddenly thought, Oh, my God, like, it’s just one of those things where it’s a timing that’s out, but I thought I was just quickly sneakily trying to, to check it. But

Dr G 35:52
Look, there doesn’t seem to be – it’s not adding to the narrative, particularly because I don’t know what, like I don’t have any sort of the puzzle pieces of like Livy’s narrative to hook this into. This is something that comes up in Diodorus Siculus, he might be off by a couple of years, that’s possible as well. But he does also name a whole bunch of the military tribunes for this year, and he gets most of them right.

Dr Rad 36:15
Well, yeah. And it does make sense because we know that Rome is suddenly becoming much more aggressive and expansionist, and they are, they are establishing more colonies and that sort of thing at this point in time and more control, sometimes, you know, they capture it, and then they lose it fairly quickly, again, but certainly the intention of not just focusing on their internal problems and defending themselves. They’re definitely trying to build something here. Definitely.

Dr G 36:43
Exactly. All right. So that’s – what – 405 and 404.

Dr Rad 36:48
That is 405 and 404, which means, Dr. G., it is time for the Partial Pick!

Dr G 37:01
The Partial Pick. So Rome has the possibility of gaining a maximum of 50, golden eagles. They are rated across five categories with 10 each. Let’s see how they do.

Dr Rad 37:17
Let’s see indeed. So what’s our first category Dr. G?

Dr G 37:21
Military clout.

Dr Rad 37:23
Okay, not so great in 405. But there’s some stuff happening in 404.

Dr G 37:30
I feel like they kind of balance each other out. It’s not like they’re successful of their seige of Veii. We know that’s going to continue on for a long time.

Dr Rad 37:38
That’s gonna take a while. Yeah, yeah.

Dr G 37:41
And they are eventually successful in Artena.

Dr Rad 37:44
They are.

Dr G 37:45
So…

Dr Rad 37:46
Artena seems to be fairly easy. It’s just a citadel that takes them a little bit of work. And even then it doesn’t seem like that much effort.

Dr G 37:54
Yeah, like, once they know the secret path. They’re all good.

Dr Rad 37:56
Exactly. So, look. Ahhh but I didn’t know what as you say, I don’t know what a big deal Artena is. Certainly the fact that they raze it to the ground, they’re sending a pretty clear message.

Dr G 38:07
It is, I probably give them maybe a four. Like it’s a pretty big thing to take something and then raze it to the ground. That doesn’t seem to be the Roman way very much in this period. They tend to take things and then leave again. Or they tend to take things and then put colonists in and hope for the best.

Dr Rad 38:24
This is true, but four? I mean, come on. That’s a failing mark, Dr. G. I think we gotta give them a six, surely?

Dr G 38:30
Well, it’s not like they’re really winning. I don’t even know where this place is.

Dr Rad 38:37
That’s because they razed it to the ground! No, I think it has to be a six. They did capture this place and they were also successful in the other battle.

Dr G 38:46
All right. I will I think we need to be careful here because if I let you have a six, I won’t negotiate later on a low score.

Dr Rad 38:51
Okay, that’s fine. I just feel like this one. This one needs to be a six, I think.

Dr G 38:57
All right. All right.

Dr Rad 38:58
Okay. I, I appreciate the six.

Dr G 39:03
Our second category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad 39:07
Okay. Well, yeah, not a lot of that going on with warfare on pretty much every front.

Dr G 39:13
Yeah, I mean, can you consider their discussion with Servilius Romanus as a negotiation? I think it’s a defection.

Dr Rad 39:23
It is. It’s definitely that yeah, no, I think that there’s no diplomacy to be had. I mean, we this would this wouldn’t be points for the Romans, we definitely see the Etruscans practicing some diplomacy, but I don’t think that right, we should get the score for them having a meeting.

Dr G 39:38
We’re gonna have to change the whole Partial Pick, when Rome has like substantial enemies who are doing better than them.

Dr Rad 39:44
Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 39:44
We’ll come back to that. So zero.

Dr Rad 39:46
Okay.

Dr G 39:47
All right. The third category is expansion.

Dr Rad 39:51
Well, as you say, like I’m willing to say that this could be a lower score because there’s no mention made of what they do with this Volscian city that they raze to the ground, it doesn’t seem like they have any interest in holding it.

Dr G 40:09
So they don’t seem to be including it as part of their territory…

Dr Rad 40:13
No…

Dr G 40:14
if they’re raising it to the ground, they kind of just getting rid of it and being done with it.

Dr Rad 40:17
Yeah.

Dr G 40:18
Having said that they send more colonists to Velitrae

Dr Rad 40:21
If Diodorus Siculus is to be believed.

Dr G 40:24
Well, how many options do I have up my sleeve?

Dr Rad 40:28
I agree. Okay, so maybe what like a two or three?

Dr G 40:33
Well, look, maybe a one. Look, let’s face it. They already had Velitrae.

Dr Rad 40:37
Right. Yeah. True.

Dr G 40:38
They said you’re just adding people to it. Maybe if we believe Diodorus.

Dr Rad 40:42
Okay, one.

Dr G 40:45
Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 40:49
Okay, not really, we don’t I mean, for all the military tributes with consular power that we have none of them mentioned by name apart from when they actually get the position.

Dr G 41:01
Yeah, none of them are coming through a standout characters who have led the charge lead the sage broken into the citadel, gained the glory gotten the triumph.

Dr Rad 41:12
I know.

Dr G 41:13
Livy’s letting us down. There must be a real gap in his source material as well, at this point.

Dr Rad 41:17
Yeah, well, and I feel that the next year is going to be a big one for personalities. So maybe he’s saving himself.

Dr G 41:26
Alright, so zero on virtus.

Dr Rad 41:29
Yep.

Dr G 41:29
And our final category is the citizen score.

Dr Rad 41:34
Very little detail on this front. Dr. G. I mean, they’re away at war, which they’re either winning or not losing. So, I don’t know.

Dr G 41:44
Wow.

Dr Rad 41:47
They’re still perhaps feeling pretty pleased with themselves for this whole military pay situation, but…

Dr G 41:53
This is true, but we can’t judge the citizens on their past efforts, really.

Dr Rad 42:00
No, I know. It’s an awkward one.

Dr G 42:02
I think we don’t know enough to really give them a score. So that’s, in a way, this is not Rome’s fault. We because we just simply don’t know. It’s not like there’s any detail coming through of a conflict of the orders, or a levy, or citizens falling a battle or poor strategic decisions being made that leads to the loss of life.

Dr Rad 42:23
This is true, this is true. I mean –

Dr G 42:25
We don’t have anything,

Dr Rad 42:26
We have the victory. And we have the fact that they capture the city and everything inside it, which presumably means there’s some booty to be had. But even then there’s no specific mentions. I don’t know how we want to handle that.

Dr G 42:40
Well, I would definitely be taking the grain out of Artena, that citadel so that’s going to be a win.

Dr Rad 42:46
Yes, exactly. That’s what I need. But where’s it going? Like who’s getting it? They dividing it up amongst the men, Dr. G?

Dr G 42:53
Hmm, these are the things that we cannot account for. And I think by that kind of standard, if we want to be really generous, we could assume that those things are benefiting the citizens, in which case we might give them a two or something.

Dr Rad 43:06
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. I’m happy to give them a two. All right. All right. So Dr. G, unfortunately, that means Rome, not doing so hot. They get a grand total of 9 out of 50 golden eagles.

Dr G 43:22
A solid loss.

Dr Rad 43:26
Not looking great, but next year will definitely be interesting, I think. So we’ll have to see.

Dr G 43:29
I suspect they might be on the up and up.

Dr Rad 43:33
There’s definitely going to be some action around they the question of Veii, yes.

Dr G 43:41
I’m looking forward to finding out what’s coming up in 403.

Dr Rad 43:45
I’ll see you then.

Dr G 43:54
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time if you’re keen to chip in. You can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book, ‘Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome’ at partialhistorians.com. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 149 – The Brief Life and Times of Servius Romanus appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Money, money, money! We’re in 406 BCE and although its well before ABBA’s pop hit, let’s this be a small hint of things to come. Rome finds itself in a bit of a tricky situation. Not only are they navigating the fallout of their conflict with the Volscians, but with the long running tensions with Veii seem to be coming to a head.

Episode 148 – It’s All About the Money, Honey!

There’s a distinct lack of enthusiasm for more fighting from the people who would be levied. Things are not looking positive on the morale front! Combine that with some meddlesome tribunes of the plebs and the recipe is ripe for a changing time ahead.

The big topic that makes the 406 stand out is the assertion in some ancient sources that this year is the first time the Roman soldiers receive pay for their service. That’s right, Rome’s been trundling along for centuries without offering those who risk life and limb anything but the potential thrill of booty. But is this claim to be believed? We consider some of the challenges.

Spoiler alert! Rome extends their sphere of influence further into Volscian territory in 406. Anxur is on the coast just to the east of Circeii. Map below for reference for just how afar afield Anxur is from Rome! Tune in for all the tactical details.

Map of Central Italy. Source Wikimedia Commons.

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The view of Anxur (known today as Terracina) from the sea. The cliff is VERY dramatic! At the top you can see the ruins of the Temple of Jupiter Anxur, which was built sometime in the mid-second to mid-first century BCE.
Photo by Gugli73 via Wikimedia Commons.

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:02
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians and I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:11
And I am Dr. Rad relieved that you know who you are, Dr. G.

Dr G 1:16
This time, for once.

Dr Rad 1:18
Call back to an episode a couple of months ago?

Dr G 1:22
Yes, well, you know, I mean, the thing is, so we are tracing the history of Rome, from the founding of the city. And we are in what I think is going to be a very exciting year, because we’re going to be talking about 406 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:43
We certainly are, but before we get into that, of course, Dr. G, I would like to recap where we were in 407 and I can do that pretty succinctly because not a huge amount happened.

Dr G 1:55
I was gonna say you really have to do the recap for 407 because I don’t know anything.

Dr Rad 2:01
Well, we got the hint that something was happening with me it was very peaceful, very diplomatic. But they is once again being mentioned which okay, I mean, there’s been some big conflicts with Veii and you know, issues with the Etruscans in the past, but it’s been a little bit quieter for the last couple of decades. But they did appear on the horizon in our last episode, but nothing very exciting really happened. And then we of course had the slaughter at Verrugo, which I’m sure you remember because I know you hate that place name.

Dr G 2:35
I do. I mean, it just doesn’t roll off the tongue nicely.

Dr Rad 2:41
Verrugo, Verrugo.

Dr G 2:41
Stop that, I’m shivering. Oh, okay. So Rome has this issue with Verrugo.

Dr Rad 2:50
It did.

Dr G 2:51
And that’s that’s kind of it.

Dr Rad 2:54
Yeah. Basically, they recently captured it. And they were feeling very smug. And then it got captured back by the Volscians, and the Aequians. And it wasn’t a great Look, it wasn’t a great Look, because they probably could have stopped that from happening if they’d been a little bit more on the ball.

Dr G 3:12
I was gonna say if they had sent a full military force.

Dr Rad 3:15
Yeah, well, I mean, they sent a military force, but they were just like, late. It was kind of the issue that they took their sweet time. And that poor little garrison out there. Killed.

Dr G 3:29
Well.

Dr Rad 3:29
All dead.

Dr G 3:31
Oh no, Dear Marcia, I write to you as I die on this battlefield.

Dr Rad 3:40
The blood is leaking from my veins, but my heart still pumps for you.

Dr G 3:50
The Romance.

Dr Rad 3:50
I know.

Dr G 3:52
All right. Well, I think that it is time then 406 BCE.

It’s 406 BCE, and we have military tribunes with consular power. There are four of them, which is a pretty standard number at this point in time. We have Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus.

Dr Rad 4:46
I believe we know that name from recent years.

Dr G 4:50
Perhaps we do, perhaps we do certainly the Rutilii Cossi as a group as a sort of gens and then that particular family line well own at this point. And we also have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. So some more Cornelii in there. We also have a guy called Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 5:18
Ah haaa

Dr G 5:21
Numerius seems to be the more preferred of the praenomens here.

Dr Rad 5:25
Okay.

Dr G 5:27
Livy might disagree. We’ll see.

Dr Rad 5:28
I’m not going to repeat my joke from last time.

Dr G 5:30
Booo! And Lucius Valerius Potitus.

Dr Rad 5:38
Another familiar name.

Dr G 5:39
Yes. Previously consular tribune in 414. And will also go on to hold that role in the future as well. Watch this space.

Dr Rad 5:49
Okay,

Dr G 5:49
So far what I can tell you so far is Potitus doesn’t die.

Dr Rad 5:55
Spoliers! Yeah.

Dr G 5:57
And we also have a legate who has survived. So a military legate, we don’t really know what they do right now. They’re in charge of troops.

Dr Rad 6:05
We don’t know what military tribunes do right now!

Dr G 6:07
We don’t really know a lot. All right. But here we are. And we have Gaius Servilius Ahala Ahala Ahala. And you will definitely recognize this name because he was a military tribute in regards to the power in 408 and 407. So as early as last year, he was hanging around.

Dr Rad 6:36
So the Ahala definitely making a comeback through this particular man.

Dr G 6:40
They are they definitely are. So that’s all the names that I’ve got. And I do have some details about this year. But I feel like Livy probably has a narrative to hook some of those details into so I’m keen to see what he’s got.

Dr Rad 6:57
Okay, well, Dr. G, get ready to strap yourself in for what is going to be an epic year. So epic. I may need two episodes to tell you about it. And it’s been a while it’s been a while since we’ve had a year I think quite this epic. I mean, 409 saw some big developments. But this is action packed.

Dr G 7:19
Stuff happens

Dr Rad 7:20
Stuff does, stuff does happen. It does, indeed. Now, a lot of the stuff that happens is connected with Veii. So last episode, we talked about the fact that allegedly, the truce between Veii and Rome that had been established in their previous conflict was running out. And so everyone was like, We got to renew it. Gotta get that least happening again.

Dr G 7:45
Hurry hurry!

Dr Rad 7:46
Yeah. But 406 is generally given in our ancient sources as the year in which war with Veii began again.

Dr G 7:59
Now, okay, that sounds momentous.

Dr Rad 8:02
Yes. Now, it’s not necessarily obviously all going to be the action of that war in this year, because this is going to be a 10 year conflict or so we are led to believe.

Dr G 8:14
Oh goodness, all right. Strap myself in indeed.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. Now look, obviously, as I highlighted last time, dates, the amount of time that the Romans are going to go to war. It’s a little bit, it’s a little bit questionable at this point in time. Do they want it to go for 10 years because the Trojan War allegedly lasted for 10 years? Maybe? Who am I to say? Who am I?

Dr G 8:38
You telling me Rome views its conflict with Veii in-? Like in Trojan War terms? It’s Homeric in its scope. Wow. All right. Okay.

Dr Rad 8:38
Yeah, there’s gonna be a lot of that. So I’m just I’m just highlighting that now. Just to begin, what will be a constant warning, every episode I’m going to have to say this or now on that. Maybe the dates are off. Maybe it didn’t last as long maybe it lasted longer really held this? Certainly not us, and certainly not Livy. Yeah. Anyway. So there are many ways we’re starting in 406, a conflict that apparently is going to go all the way down to 396.

Dr G 9:17
Okay, okay.

Dr Rad 9:19
So, because this is a big deal, I thought maybe we should do a little bit of a recap about Veii. Okay. So geographically, I know you’re very well acquainted with where Veii is now because it is super close to Rome.

Dr G 9:35
It is. So realistically we’re talking it’s about it’s less than, like 20 kilometers away from Rome, centre proper

Dr Rad 9:43
Which in Australian terms is basically next door.

Dr G 9:47
Well, and even in Italy, it’s basically like, let’s not kid ourselves. You could walk there on a good day, and be like, Oh, hey, guys, it’s the Etruscans a completely different people.

Dr Rad 9:57
Yeah, So because they’re so close, it makes sense that they are constantly fighting these people, because the Romans are constantly fighting all of their neighbors. But they, I suppose having those a trust and connections, I guess that makes them perhaps more ripe for conflict in some ways, because you know, the Etruscans are a major power, they’re a major player, you know, there’s glory to be won here, Dr. G.

Dr G 9:59
Yeah, and faith does have the capacity to leverage much more support than the neighbors in the other directions surrounding Rome at this point. So Rome has got this thing going on with the Volscii and the Aequii who are kind of to the south east-ish. And those people don’t seem to be interconnected into a broader empire of sorts, or a broader conglomerate. There’s kind of like, Latin peoples, and they’re all kind of milling around in the same sort of area as Rome. But they’re not necessarily power blocks, whereas Veii represents the most southern tip of Etrurian power. And the Etruscans are known for having quite a reach up through central into northern Italy.

Dr Rad 11:14
Yes, exactly. And on a more local level, they being so close, they probably have control of some territory, that’d be really handy for the Romans to have, not just so they can say, mine is bigger, but so they have control of, you know, like trade routes, you know, more access to resources that are pretty damn close by.

Dr G 11:36
Yes, it would be nice to knock Veii off its pedestal, wouldn’t it?

Dr Rad 11:44
Yes, it would. Just to do a bit of a recap of where we’ve been with a because Okay, I’m sorry, I have to do a bit of spoilers. This is going to be the last of the big conflicts with Veii –

Dr G 11:56
Oh, no! Close your ears listeners!

Dr Rad 11:57
Well, I didn’t say who was gonna win. But I mean, you know, put two and two. So this is going to be the last. So the first really big conflict with a and I mean, obviously, there’s been issues with the Etruscans. We believe the sources which we we tend to because there’s nothing else to do. There’s obviously been some Etruscan questions in the regal period, notably, thanks to Tarquinius, Priscus, etc. But in terms of the Republic, there was a war with a that lasted from 43 to 474. And they definitely was pretty hot in that conflict did pretty well for themselves. And this is the time period in which we have that very famous moment of the fabulous Fabian strategy.

Dr G 12:50
Yes, they were fabulous. right up into the point where they all died. Yes.

Dr Rad 12:54
All, apart from one that would carry the name. Down through the centuries.

Dr G 13:01
But you were the chosen one!

Dr Rad 13:03
Yes, yes. So that didn’t end well. For the Romans. The people have they got to keep Fidenae which they are, which always has its greedy little eyes on and that sort of thing. They’d been embarrassed even though obviously, the Fabians seem to have just like gone out on their own bat and be like, yeah, if we just take our clients and our family and sort this out? Sick, bro. Yeah. Yeah, in spite of that, still embarrassing, because they still obviously come from Rome represent the room and interests, and that sort of thing. So that wasn’t great. Then more recently, and our listeners might remember this, we of course, had the conflict over Fidenae, which flared up again in the 430s. And the for 20 years, although the dates of course, were super confusing.

Dr G 13:53
Ah, yes. This is one of those instances where all of the events around Fidenae seem to either happen at one time, or they happened a completely different decades. Nobody’s really quite sure really, but it happened. This is where Lars Tolumnius comes into play.

Dr Rad 14:09
It is, it is, yes, the Etruscan King.

Dr G 14:12
I knew I remembered something about history,

Dr Rad 14:14
Indeed, slain on the battlefield. It’s very sad. So that obviously was a pretty big thing, because with the source material being so confusing, it seemed like that conflict was going on for like a good decade. And maybe it was maybe it was, but certainly there was a lot of changing of allegiances with Fidenae being like, you know, well Fidenae was the hot potato. They were throwing backwards and forwards and was also trying to pick what was best for itself, which was very difficult with Roman and Veii being like you should be with me.

Dr G 14:46
I think they chose Veii and that made Rome mad.

Dr Rad 14:48
It did, it certainly did. It certainly did. So we’ve had that. But it’s been fairly quiet, obviously, because of the way things ended. You know, there was a truce to know. However, hostility is about to recommence, Dr. G, and it really all begins because the Senate in they are just so rude.

Dr G 15:07
Really? Rude about what? They don’t want the new treaty they don’t want to renewal?

Dr Rad 15:15
So as we know, treaties running out Romans are dealing with this people may seem too interested in this too. But they had asked the Romans for a little bit of you know, timeout because they were dealing with some internal problems. When the Romans approached them in this year, allegedly, the Senate as they tells the Romans to get the hell out if they don’t want a taste of what Lars Tolumnius had dished out to the Romans before. In other words, death.

Dr G 15:41
Interesting. I wonder what provoked that?

Dr Rad 15:44
I know. I know. So.

Dr G 15:47
It seems to have come out of nowhere, really

Dr Rad 15:48
I know – they were so nice to each other last year, and yet here we are. Maybe they are, maybe they are being strategic. Maybe they just wanted a little bit more time to prepare lower them in exactly false pretenses. Anyway, needless to say, wherever this hostility came from, the Romans are living so insulted so they say to the military tribunes, could you please just go to the people and ask them to declare war against pay for I will not stand for such an insult.

Dr G 16:23
Fair enough. Yeah. I wouldn’t either.

Dr Rad 16:25
No. So the military tribunes do this, of course, but they meet with a less than enthusiastic reception. And this is an interesting episode, I think. Apparently, the young men are kind of like, ‘Oh, my God, seriously, like another war? Like, do you not realize that we’re still like fighting with the Volscians? I mean, every year were still fighting and it’s just so much war and you want to do it on like, multiple directions. I can’t even.’

Dr G 16:58
‘Guys, I’m still in therapy after Verrugo,’

Dr Rad 17:01
‘My trauma, my trauma.’

Dr G 17:05
Fair enough. I would be like that, too. I’d be like, it’s too soon. Guys, I’ve already seen blood.

Dr Rad 17:10
Yeah. Well, I mean, that is fair, because they are still engaged with ongoing tiffs with the Volscians every other year.

Dr G 17:17
Hmm. I was gonna say it’s not like things have settled down to the southeast.

Dr Rad 17:21
No, Verrugo just happened, you know, they remember that, you know, and so they really don’t want to go to war. And they particularly don’t want to go to war with Veii because they know from experience, that they’re tough. They’re really close. And because there is obviously an Etruscan power. There’s always the potential that they’re gonna call it all their buddies, all the other Etruscan cities and kingdoms, and it’s just gonna get out of hand.

Dr G 17:50
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don’t want to do that either. I mean, there’s got to be a way.

Dr Rad 17:54
Yeah. Yeah. So this is interesting. You know, as of time of recording, we just recently spoke to a magnificent guest, Bret Devereaux. He reminded us how little we actually know about military operations at this point in time. But I do think it’s interesting that there is the story of like, you know, the lack of interest, you know, people not wanting to sign up. Yeah, it does highlight, obviously, the volunteer, somewhat ad hoc nature of Roman military at this time.

Dr G 18:25
Yes, this idea that we’ve got a sort of a citizen militia that’s kind of can can be called upon, but also gets to express its viewpoint about what’s happening.

Dr Rad 18:35
Yeah.

Dr G 18:36
So they’re not just, it’s not just a state military apparatus.

Dr Rad 18:41
Certainly not yet.

Dr G 18:42
No, it is kind of like a group of people getting together being like, ‘Well, we really should poke sticks in those people over there?’ And, and people in the group being like, ‘I’m not sure I want to do that right now.’

Dr Rad 18:53
Yeah, exactly. Like, I can’t.

Dr G 18:57
I’m really busy.

Dr Rad 19:00
Really need to get some farming done, guys.

Dr G 19:02
Do you want to eat grain? I want to eat grain.

Dr Rad 19:04
I would love to have some bread. Yeah. So this unhappiness is made a lot worse by our old friends the tribunes of the plebs.

Dr G 19:13
Oh, no. Do we even know the names of any of those guys right now?

Dr Rad 19:16
That’d be silly.

Dr G 19:20
I was like, I don’t have any of the plebs in my list, but maybe you do know.

Dr Rad 19:24
Yeah, just generically troublesome in my account.

Dr G 19:27
Okay. Yeah. nameless, troublesome figures. I like it.

Dr Rad 19:31
Yeah. Well, which works kind of either way, I think for a little while. But anyway, so they of course latch on to this. They’re like, excellent. We’ll use this and they start making a lot of public declarations saying things like, the Senate don’t really want to wage war and the Volscians are they they’re really waging war on the plebs.

Dr G 19:51
Oh, this is actually a new line for them. I think I like it. Yeah. It’s a war on the people. That’s what it is and I won’t have it.

Dr Rad 19:57
Yeah. And then like, don’t you see, can’t you see the pattern, the way that they’re going about it is that they constantly keep running in a state of war, which means that the beings are constantly having to fight, which means that they get injured or die, or at the very least, it’s keeping them out of the city, often far away from the city. Whereas if they were allowed to just kick back, sit on the couch, once in a while, stay at home, not be distracted by the constant threat of death and battle, then they might have had the time to think about, you know, freedom, how they want it, how to get it, setting up colonies, where they can have land and that sort of thing. After all, let’s not forget that they are apparently the people who are winning these public lands, and they should be able to vote wherever they want, whenever they want, do whatever they want. They do everything!

Dr G 19:59
All right. Okay, I appreciate this argument. I really do. But I can also see how this is not going to fly with the elite in charge around here, who are looking at the horizon, seeing Veii beating some sticks together and being like, ‘Look, if we don’t do something, they’re going to take this place and then we’ll have nowhere to live. Guys, guys!’

Dr Rad 21:23
For sure. I can totally see that too. And when we’re there in Rome, I mean, the ancient city a very is now within the modern city of Rome. That’s how close these places are. And therefore, it is probably a bit of a, ‘Look one has to go eventually.’

Dr G 21:41
Yeah. There ain’t enough room in this town for the two of us

Dr Rad 21:47
There ain’t enough room in this top or valley for the both of us. But anyway, Look obviously into I agree with you, I get where they’re coming from I do I get whether the patricians are coming from I also get that this is horribly anachronistic.

Dr G 22:05
The best we can say

Dr Rad 22:06
Exactly. Probably didn’t actually happen. But anyway, let’s continue on because it’s a great story. We’re about to get to my favorite part. So they then start speaking to the old veterans in the group, get them to talk about their campaigns, what they sacrificed over the years. And of course, Dr. G. It’s time for a plebeian to get his shirt off.

Dr G 22:27
Whoohoo

Dr Rad 22:27
Oh, yeah. It’s be way too long since somebody ripped off their tunic and showed their battle scars.

Dr G 22:34
I haven’t seen anybody’s wounds on the front for ages.

Dr Rad 22:36
I know. I know. I was very excited. A little too excited. But anyway, so hey, rip off their tunics. They show their battle scars.

Dr G 22:46
I was in Fidenae. I saw it all.

Dr Rad 22:50
I remember when Lars Tolumnius was thrown from his horse by Cossus into the ground and a place where the sun don’t shine, if you know what I mean. Now the tribune is pointed out that there’s barely any space left on their bodies for new scars.

Dr G 23:11
We can’t send these guys they’re not gonna get through

Dr Rad 23:13
Which is a grizzly image. If you think about it. I mean, I think about people that are addicted to tattoos and get tattoos all over their bodies, but scarring is like a different issue. That’s, that’s a lot.

Dr G 23:26
It is. It is a lot. The tunic was taken off and everybody was like, please put that back on.

Dr Rad 23:31
Oh, my god,

Dr G 23:34
Stop.

Dr Rad 23:36
Does your skin stretch at all?

Dr G 23:39
Alright, we weren’t send you It’s fine. It’s fine. We’ll send somebody else.

Dr Rad 23:42
Given ancient medicine, you’re a frickin miracle. Anyway, they’re like, What blood could they possibly now shed for Rome? They’ve already given so much. There’s barely any left in that body. They basically blew and not in a good way. So the sorts of speeches and demonstrations naturally make the plebeians even more anti war than they were before.

Dr G 24:11
Fair enough. Yeah. Sounds about right.

Dr Rad 24:14
So our magistrates, therefore decide that you know what, why don’t we just wait before we vote on this issue? And a feeling that it might not go our way if we vote immediately.

Dr G 24:26
There are some clever ones in there. All right.

Dr Rad 24:28
Yeah. So feel like insult must be advantage but pick your battles. You know, pick your moments. It was decided, therefore, that the military tribunes should move into Volscian territory with an army.

Dr G 24:43
Hmm,

Dr Rad 24:44
yes. And then we’re going to leave Gnaeus Cornelius behind in Rome, you know, just to keep an eye on things.

Dr G 24:50
Okay,

Dr Rad 24:51
Yup. The Volscians: Not in the mood for battle today. No, thank you. They didn’t even have a camp. They were caught without their makeup on, without their clothes ready, without their hair done.

Dr G 25:04
Oh, no. Yeah. They were like, ‘Word has it that the Romans are gonna be moving north this year. So I’m just gonna sleep in.’

Dr Rad 25:13
Exactly. Yeah, I can take take a beat. Take the year off. Yeah, no, you can’t. Now. So we got one military tribune in in Rome means we got the other three add on campaign and the strategy that they use is that they divide the army up into three sections. And each military tribune therefore gets to plunder and destroy a different part of Volscian country.

Dr G 25:36
Oh, I have a few details about this. But I am willing to hear where how Livy’s structures the narrative.

Dr Rad 25:45
Okay,

Dr G 25:45
And then and then I’ll jump in with what may be some irrelevant extra detail.

Dr Rad 25:50
Let’s go with it. Alright, so I feel a bit like I’m telling the story, the three little pigs: Valerius went to Antium. Cornelius went to Ecetra, Ecetrae, et cetera, et cetera.

Ah et chetera

Et chetray

Dr G 26:08
I don’t know.

Dr Rad 26:08
Yeah. Something.

Dr G 26:11
It starts with ‘e’ guys.

Dr Rad 26:13
Etc Et ketray. It probably is Et cet-tray.

Dr G 26:15
Et cet-tray

Dr Rad 26:16
Yeah,

Dr G 26:16
Let’s say Ecetra.

Dr Rad 26:17
I like calling it et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, by of course, they do the usual you know, like attacking buildings attacking farms, whenever they find them causing chaos. What a merry lark. And our final tribute, he went to Anxur, and this is of course that fabulous Fabian tribune. Now Anxur was the major target for this particular campaign. Now, I think the reason for that, Dr. G, is I don’t actually know that we’ve even mentioned this place before. And it’s further-

I don’t think we have, no.

Yeah, it’s further south, I think then they’ve generally gone like, as far as I can tell, this is even beyond Antium. Still

Dr G 26:59
Oh, yeah, I can tell you all about where it’s located.

Dr Rad 27:02
Thank you. I believe that it’s currently, if you were to go and want to see this site now, it’d be known as Terracina.

Dr G 27:10
Hmmm, yes, it is. So this is a place that is about 56 kilometers, or 35 miles southeast of Rome,

Dr Rad 27:23
My, you are prepared.

Dr G 27:25
I am prepared. If I know anything, I’m looking at places where I haven’t heard of them before. So it becomes the place where the Via Appia extends all the way down to it not in this time period. But in about another 100 years time, the Via Appia will head all the way straight into like a deadline for Rome down to this spot, right. And it’s on a really strategic location. So Italy has all of these sort of like mountain ranges that are formed through the volcanic activity in the the tectonic plates and stuff that sort of go down the middle of it. And this is a spot where a set of hills becomes the cliffs that fall into the sea.

Dr Rad 28:11
Okay.

Dr G 28:12
So when you’re in Anxur, you’re on the top of a hill. And you can see in every direction, basically. So pretty exciting stuff, because it’s in what is known as the Volscian hills. And you can see over what is known as the Pontine Marshes. Now this is the really super flat area that sits in between these hills and Rome itself. And when you’re like driving around in Italy today, I recommend you do it. All the roads there are really straight, because it’s just flat land. But you’ve got these amazing hills on one side, and then you’ve got the marshes and it’s just flat. You’re like, Okay, so you’ve got like a really clear view for a whole bunch of things. And we think historically, way back even pre Rome, wait for it that this was an Etruscan area.

Dr Rad 29:07
Oh, okay.

Dr G 29:08
Yeah, back in the seventh century BCE, right. And that it sort of splits away and the Volscians come in and it becomes their kind of thing. And, and they’ve been hanging out there. But Carthage also has a history with this spot as well.

Dr Rad 29:26
They do. It’s coastal.

Dr G 29:27
Yeah. Yeah, anything on the coast. Carthage is interested. The Punic peoples, they are a seafaring peoples. So they’ve had a treaty setup there since about the early republic. So this whole situation is really interesting because it is you’re right, it is much further south than Rome has gone before with a military enterprise. And they’re now taking what is a highly strategic Volscian location.

Dr Rad 29:59
Venturing where no Roman than has dared to go before.

Dr G 30:04
A small step for man, a giant step for a Roman military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 30:10
That’s right. All right. So, as you’ve highlighted because of the way it’s positioned, this is not a place that the Romans are just gonna be able to waltz in and plunder. This is a siege we’re facing, people. Now, as you said, there are marshes nearby, like the city apparently kind of slipped in the direction of the marshes. So that is where Fabius is kind of positioned. He has no other choice.

Dr G 30:39
I was gonna say that is not the strategic location to start your siege, but okay, Mr. Mr. Fabius.

Dr Rad 30:45
Yeah, well, that’s where he’s going to, that’s where he’s gonna position himself and he’s, he’s getting a little punchy, you know, he’s got a little keen taste, taste for battle. However, this is where our legate comes in. So Gaius Servilius Ahala, takes four cohorts. And he starts to move around the hill, which overlooks Anxur, and he starts attacking the hills from that position, which apparently is a very good position to do this from because there are no real troops there to fight back. Maybe they thought that no one would take that line of attack. I don’t know.

Dr G 31:22
They’re like, ‘these hills are hard to climb. Nobody’s gonna come that way.’

Dr Rad 31:25
Definitely. No one’s gonna do that. They’re also making a huge amount of noise whilst they’re doing this. Okay, so a huge racket to the point where the people who are inside the city are like, Oh, my God, could you just keep it down with trying to wage a war state or rock concert? Jeez.

Dr G 31:44
I’m trying to think about what the purpose of the noise would be, and maybe to scare the people into thinking that there’s a bigger army and

Dr Rad 31:49
It’s a tactic. It’s a technique. So obviously, the people who are focusing on Fabius, who’s doing his little like, jab, jab, punch from down in the marshes.

Dr G 32:03
Come down here and say that, I’ll take you down.

Dr Rad 32:06
They’re confused by the noise. It’s very distracting. And because they are distracted by the noise that’s being caused by Ahala. It allows Fabius apparently to sneak in some scaling ladders.

Dr G 32:23
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Dr Rad 32:25
Exactly. And Anxur is soon swarming with Romans. And this is a pretty brutal conquest, Dr. G., they are slaughtering everyone and anyone citizen soldier, armed, unarmed, who cares. You’re on the end of my sword.

Dr G 32:45
Huh? Okay, so this issue, this moment in time between Rome, the Volscians and Anxur, yes, this is one of those rare moments where we have a fragment from Ennius.

Dr Rad 32:59
Oh, okay. Tell me more about this early, early source.

Dr G 33:04
Our, early early source. So Ennius is most famous for writing a poem called the Annales and he was born in 239 BCE, we think so he’s third century. So this puts him much earlier than Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, any of the sources that we’re reading really? Yeah. And so this becomes one of these moments that we’re able to locate, because we’ve got a much earliest written source, okay. So, Ennius is somebody who is not Roman, he is somebody who comes to Rome later in life. And he speaks a number of different languages. So he is from what is ancient Calabria, which is part of broader Magna Grecia. Right? So he speaks Greek. He also speaks Oscan. And he also speaks Latin, handy. And this seems to be like pretty typical for what is going on in Italy during this way.

Dr Rad 34:11
Yeah, you’ve got the Greeks in the south, you’ve got the Oscans on the – wait – you’ve got the Oscans to the east…

Dr G 34:18
The Oscans are kind of to the east a little bit, but they kind of spread like a little band that separates the Greeks and the Latin speakers if you like so he’s kind of got like this sweep of things from sort of south to center in terms of his languages. This means that he’s got not just a sort of an interest in Roman things. He’s got an interest in the broader region as well. And he mentioned this as he mentioned the Roman ladders in Anxur and he also mentions the way that the Volscians lose. So these are the two details that that we get from a different source for this.

Dr Rad 34:54
Okay. Well, okay. Let us corroborate: ladders – tick.So obviously with Romans all about their city, too dangerous etc, as they tend to be, the people who live there, they’ve got nothing to gain at this point by surrounding because the Romans are just too indiscriminate in their violence. And so it looks like they just gonna have to power on regardless which, again, it’s not going to end well for them that I guess at least I took a few Romans with them, right. But suddenly, the Romans are receiving instruction that they’re not to harm anyone, unless they’re holding a weapon. And so the people of Anxur are very quick to drop it like it’s hot.

Dr G 35:37
‘What are you talking about? Mah? That touched me, I didn’t pick it up.’

Dr Rad 35:43
‘That’s not mine. I mean sure it’s got my name inscribed on it, but whatever.’ So this is how this is how it ends? It means that the Romans are able to capture approximately 2,500 people.

Dr G 35:59
Okay, that’s a lot.

Dr Rad 36:00
Yeah. And I mean, considering that we haven’t really talked much about, you know, prisoners of war of late. But it wasn’t that long ago that they also captured, you know, a few 1,000. And so yeah, all of a sudden, we can see that, with the Romans being a bit more aggressive. Being a bit more expansionist in the region. We’re starting to see prisoners being taken again, allegedly, the numbers are very round. That’s all I’m gonna say.

Dr G 36:27
You telling me somebody’s not keeping a proper count. Goodness me.

Dr Rad 36:32
Anyway. So Fabius now comes in, and he tells his man, ‘Look, you need to leave the booty here until the other military tribunes arrive on the scene.’ Okay, after all, you know, this is this is a joint effort we’re talking about here. And also, you know, Ahala, he also was key, they managed to do the ladder thing, because they were just so damn noisy. So once all of the three military tribunes and Ahala represent as well sort of all converged on Anxur, the three armies and all get to lay waste to the town together, because the family that raids together stays together. And Anxur is a real win, not just strategically, although that is obviously a big thing. That’s the main reason why they want it. But it’s also a very rich place at this point in time, they’ve been doing pretty well for themselves. So, you know, it’s it’s a good time had by the Romans, it’s a good day.

Dr G 37:35
It does seem like they’ve gone in the very opposite direction, and quite far in the opposite direction though, from Veii.

Dr Rad 37:43
Yes, yes. Well, I think you’ll see why in a second here. So because all the soldiers were able to come together, and raid this very rich city, and they’ve had their success. This starts to make the plebeians think, maybe the patricians aren’t so bad. After all, there’s no better way to say that you’re sorry, then with goods stolen from the enemy?

Dr G 38:09
Oh, that’s true. I’m feeling buffed up by all of this booty.

Dr Rad 38:13
Yeah, and again, if we if we unpack this a little bit with what we know about the Roman army, or rather, what we don’t know, at this point in time, because it is made up with people who are volunteers, as far as we can tell, and they are people who obviously, therefore, you know, they go to work, and they need to, but otherwise they’re living their lives, and that sort of thing. Being able to raid like this makes sense. This is probably what warfare at this point in time is really about. It’s not huge state run armies. You don’t probably have magistrates, who get to say, who gets to keep what and who gets what, all the time, you know, it would have to be that these guys are, they’re not getting paid. So them being able to take stuff when they win a battle. That’s their pet. That’s what they get for doing this for risking their lives and for leaving their families and their farms.

Dr G 39:12
Yeah. And this sort of going out as far as Rome has, at this point, taking this place that they’ve never taken before. This would be a real, I don’t want to say cash injection, but it’s kind of what I mean is like there’s like a wealth accruing there from taking somewhere new and different.

Dr Rad 39:30
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, this is where we get a very big decision being made, Dr. G. And nobody had even asked for it, which we know as women. That’s what matters the most right that you didn’t actually have to ask. So the Senate makes this big decision that they’re going to start paying soldiers.

Dr G 39:55
What?

Dr Rad 39:56
Yeah, yeah,

Dr G 39:57
No.

Dr Rad 39:58
Yeah. So the state-slash-public treasury and now going to pay the man who are fighting for them, which is described by Livy as the most seasonable boon, which has ever been bestowed on them by the chiefs of state.

Dr G 40:14
Okay, now, I’m not sure, first, that I believe that this is going to be the start of sustained payment.

Dr Rad 40:21
I don’t think it is either. No, I don’t think so.

Dr G 40:25
The only other source that I have for this year is Florus.

Dr Rad 40:28
Mmm Okay?

Dr G 40:30
And Florus, he talks about this 10 year siege of Veii, the foreshadowing thing. And he talks about how this is the first time that a Roman army has to spend the winter in campaign. So all of a sudden, they’re out in the cold. So rather than usually the idea of the Roman campaigning season, as far as we theoretically understand that we have no idea how it’s actually working at this point in time. But the idea is that in spring, you get together, you do the levee, and then you go out, and summertime is battle time.

Dr Rad 41:09
Yeah.

Dr G 41:10
And when things start to cool down again, in autumn, you definitely want to bring everybody home. Things don’t happen in winter time, everybody’s busy trying to stay warm, to stay out on campaign through the winter, is a whole extra sort of layer of challenge. You would need different equipment, better equipment, perhaps more weatherproof equipment. But if you’re going to do a siege properly, and it’s going to keep being a siege for as long as it needs to be a siege, you kind of have to stay in the field. And this is the moment that Florus suggest that because winter service was required of the soldiers. And this is in relation to Veii so we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. They get compensated with a special payment.

Dr Rad 41:59
Yeah, so I think you I think you hit the nail on the head, you have jumped ahead a little bit in my narrative. But yes, you are right, it does seem to be tied very much with Veii with the fact that there seems to be a much more sustained campaign. Is it 10 years? Who knows. But it definitely does seem to be more sustained than what the Romans have recently been doing, which is basically, you know, running across borders. And running back again. And certainly, so we can believe that there is some sort of payment in terms of it being like cash, like we would think of it like cha ching coin.

Dr G 42:35
Yeah. You rock up and the coin store is like and that’s your check. Cash it wisely.

Dr Rad 42:41
Yeah, it seems unlikely that that’s what’s happening at this point in time. The Romans don’t have coinage in this moment, it’s more, it’s more likely that they’re getting paid in a sense of they’re getting certain goods and food would be the most likely source of payment, I would imagine.

Dr G 42:59
Yeah. And we sort of get that sense that prior to this, the informal way of compensating people is through the booty system. So the idea that you go out, you do the reading, you grab the other people’s stuff. And that’s how you compensate people because then people either use that stuff, or maybe they trade that stuff.

Dr Rad 43:17
Yeah. And as was very usefully highlighted by Bret Devereaux. I’m going to keep mentioning him because it’s just a very military episode. As he mentioned, when you have an army like this, the people that who are going out and fighting even though the whole accounts been very much swept up in this conflict of the oddest narrative, which we keep going on and on about, it probably isn’t the super, super poor people that are going out and fighting at this moment in time. It’s probably still people that are, you know, relatively well off. So they’ve been able to do this kind of warfare up until this point, but being away on campaign for a long time. Well, that is different. And also if you want more manpower, then you have to make it possible for the poorer people to serve.

Dr G 44:09
Yeah, there needs to be a way to make sure that it’s possible for them to take the time.

Dr Rad 44:14
Yeah. And for the state not to suffer you know, you do still need people to stay at home and farm. Yeah, anyway, so as you highlighted, this pay probably is linked to the future campaign per se, but there hasn’t been mentioned yet, Dr. G. But just giving it to people they just didn’t dancing it okay and are so excited. This is like Christmas.

Dr G 44:43
Oh Livy, this narrative is wild.

Dr Rad 44:46
So crowds start to gather together in the Curia. And this is okay, apparently, it would be amazing. Of course,

Dr G 44:53
In a nice public building if they’ve got one.

Dr Rad 44:55
Yeah, exactly. Men are shaking the hands of senators as they come out of this historic meeting. They’re saying to them, ‘You know what? We’ve had to call you, the fathers. But now you really deserve it.’

Dr G 45:12
Daddy,

Dr Rad 45:14
Oh my god you are my real dad.

Dr G 45:17
I feel like I’d be a real son now.

Dr Rad 45:20
It’s just like all these years. It’s kind of felt like you didn’t really care but you did. And you are my father. You are the patres. You are the patres.

Dr G 45:36
Wow, the emotion. They’re running high.

Dr Rad 45:39
Yeah, exactly. Everyone’s saying, ‘You know what, now no one would mind serving in the army. Blood shmud, death schmeth, who cares? I mean, Rome, as a state is just so insanely generous, that it’s just a pleasure and an honour to serve.’

Dr G 46:00
Guys, you’ve made it easy for me to say yes. Now you really have.

Dr Rad 46:02
Yeah, they really extra tickled, like the joy is really, you know, just gone. Right up there. Because not only were they not losing money anymore, when they went out of fight potentially, obviously, depends if you get booty and that sort of thing. But it’s really the fact that the Senate did this without being asked. They hadn’t even been pushing for this. It’s a spontaneous gift. It’s like when your partner takes the rubbish out without having to be asked, you know, when they put their plate in the dishwasher without having to be asked or they tidy their room without having to be asked.

Dr G 46:39
Well, I don’t know what’s going on in your house, but it sounds very exciting.

Dr Rad 46:44
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, are not pleased. They’re the only party poopers in this situation.

Dr G 46:54
I wonder why? They’ve been undercut, haven’t they?

Dr Rad 46:57
Exactly. Whose scars are going to show now? They felt like the plebeians were deluded. They’re like, ‘Guys, this is not going to benefit you quite this much like take it down a notch. It’s just one of those things that the Senate do, where I assure it looks good on paper, or whatever it is we’re using right now to record things. But it’s not going to play out that well in real life, or telling you this, this isn’t how the Senate is work. This isn’t how patricians work.’

Dr G 47:27
Yeah, ‘you need to be more suspicious, guys. A little bit more skepticism could go a long way right now.’

Dr Rad 47:32
Well, they do make a very good point, Dr. G. And it’s what a question that we still asked to this day, which is, where’s the money coming from? Follow the many people! Who’s going to be paying for this?

Dr G 47:46
I mean, if it’s bags of grain if they’re being paid in food, that food has been produced by the very people who it’s been given to.

Dr Rad 47:54
How dare you interrupt my delightfully anachronistic account of Livy? Where we are apparently talking about money?

Dr G 48:02
I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Dr Rad 48:04
He basically says, ‘Look, it’s gonna be the people that are funding this. The senators? Oh, sure. They’re so generous when it comes to making payments with other people’s money.’

Dr G 48:15
Exactly.

Dr Rad 48:17
Which, okay, let’s just take a break. Even if we’re not talking about actual money, it might be other people’s goods or grain that we’re talking about here. So I take your point. Yeah.

Dr G 48:31
Either way, I don’t think it’s coming out of the pockets of the rich.

Dr Rad 48:35
That’s the point. That’s the point even if whatever we’re talking about whether we’re talking about grain, whether we are in fact talking about some sort of valuable metal, whatever it is, we’re talking about, and I’m putting my money on the grain. It’s not going to be coming from they’re not privately funding this. The tribunes of the plebs also point out. What about the people who had already served? Right okay to be happy that people are now getting paid. There’s no back pay system. Come on. No, no, don’t like it’s going to be coming out of their pockets, but they didn’t get paid. That’s a bit of a you know, a bit of a nice to the heart right there.

Dr G 49:15
That’s a recipe for discontent.

Dr Rad 49:16
That is it is yeah. Now some of the plebeians are like okay, good points, fair points. I hear what you’re saying. and I are going to wind back my enthusiasm just a tad.

Dr G 49:32
Daddy, thank you. I’ll write you a card.

Dr Rad 49:36
The tribunes don’t come out and say – sorry, the tribunes of the plebs – I always have to qualify that because there’s so many tribunes at the moment. They say we will make sure that anyone who refuses to pay any sort of tax for soldier pay, we will protect you. We will look out for you because this is not a good system. This is not fair. This is not what should be happening.

Dr G 49:58
Interesting.

Dr Rad 49:59
I know So even though the senators are being very clever here, because as you highlighted, they’re totally thinking about very when they’re introducing this. They’ve been very clever not let on that. That’s what it’s about. The tribunes are also being very clever, and foreseeing that there’s a problem with this in that, where’s it all going to come from? However, the senators are determined to this is going to go through. So determined that they do put in some of their own money, and I’m using my flesh rabbits there, because once again, what money? There is no coinage. And Livy apparently says that the way that they pay is they bring in unclaimed bronze in wagons to the Treasury. Now, I did actually talk about this in another episode thinking I had already mentioned this. But this is where we have to be like, really? Is that what they did? I’m not sure like maybe, I don’t know, but it does seem-

Dr G 51:02
Where did they find this? This bronze?

Dr Rad 51:05
It just doesn’t seem like the way that Rome is operating right now.

Dr G 51:11
Okay, yeah. Look, I, I don’t have a perspective one way or the other or that I but I think I have questions.

Dr Rad 51:18
At least Livy knows that it should be uncoined bronze. But anyway, but they make sure that people see them doing it. That’s the whole point. Yeah, so like, oh, this wagon so heavy, my animals was straining to bring it in to the Treasury. However, wil I carry so much uncoined bronze?

Dr G 51:42
The blanket that’s covering it slips off and like, ‘oh, goodness, is that what’s in there?’

Dr Rad 51:46
Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I didn’t want anyone to know, this is meant to be anonymous. I wanted to hide my name. Anyway, so with the senators bringing in some of their own cash for lack of a better term – goods. They also want their clients I think to start bringing in contributions.

Dr G 52:10
All right, yeah. They have to raise funds somehow now. If you’re gonna pay people, you need to pay them with something. Yes, regardless of what that something is.

Dr Rad 52:19
Yeah. And it seems that they might be recruiting some of the wealthier plebeians to do this. Which is really interesting, because we’ve always talked about the nuance of the supposed Conflict of the Orders. So it is interesting to once again highlight that it’s not as clear cut as patricians versus plebeians. It’s probably wealthy people versus other people, much like every other society. Anyway, the crowd start to see a course that people are bringing in their own money, and that these people were being praised by the patricians for doing that. People of military age, who always are going to be the ones on the front lines, and who are going to be obviously benefiting from this. They’re like, wow, this is amazing.

Dr G 53:06
Sign me up, I’ll go anywhere, I’ll do anything.

Dr Rad 53:10
They’re doing their duty by making these contributions and allowing for this payment system to be possible. So this starts to turn them against the tribunes of the plebs here, and everyone starts competing with each other to make their own donations. Now, when I say everyone, I’m presuming again. Everyone wealthy.

Dr G 53:30
Every rich person.

Dr Rad 53:31
Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 53:33
Like this is how we’re going to get them on side.

Dr Rad 53:35
It’s at this point, that war is declared on Veii, because of course, they have no problem fielding an army after all of this.

Dr G 53:44
It’s time guys. were bursting at the seams with troops.

Dr Rad 53:48
Yeah. Now, as you’ve said, although we have to question a lot of the material from this early period. It does make sense that there was a payment of sorts involved in this campaign, at least at some point, maybe not straightaway, maybe straightaway, who knows. But it probably wasn’t something that the Romans kept in play consistently from this moment on. It was probably exactly because they is going to be a special case.

Dr G 54:19
Yes, I dare say so. So whatever is going to happen. And at the moment, in Livy’s, narrative, nothing yet has happened with Veii except for the decision to go to war. But it seems like whatever is going to happen in Veii is going to be significant enough that Rome has to change the way it does things in order to pursue its military objectives.

Dr Rad 54:41
Absolutely. And Veii is a valid military objective.

Dr G 54:46
Look they have been a thorn in Rome side pretty much since the beginning.

Dr Rad 54:50
So maybe even before, after all the Etruscans seem to have been earlier.

Dr G 54:56
That’s true. Yeah.

Dr Rad 54:58
Now that is where 406 actually winds up for me with the beginning, the beginning of conflict with Veii on the horizon.

Dr G 55:07
All right. Well, I think that’s probably an excellent place to then wrap up this episode. I certainly don’t have too much to add. I think I’ve, I’ve sprinkled in the little fragments of sources as they’ve appeared in relation to things. The only other thing that I could tell you is Diodorus Siculus does go into the broader Mediterranean politics a little bit,

Dr Rad 55:32
I’d love to hear that.

Dr G 55:34
And mostly focusing on Sicily at this point. So Sicily has been taken over by tyrants. We’re kind, we’ve got a guy called Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse. And he is now looking to expand his power and territorial influence. So he’s sitting in a pretty strategic location already with Syracuse. But he’s like, You know what I would like to dominate all of the east coast of Sicily as my like branching out process. He’s really interested in taking over Naxos, which is a little bit further up; Catane, which becomes Catania.; And Leontinoi, which is a little bit further north of Syracuse, but before you get to Catane. So he’s keen to do that. And he’s sort of like eyeing off how he’s going to do it. And facing some pressure from Punic forces, because a lot of these places are being contested right now. And the Carthaginians have a presence in Sicily already. So that’s kind of like this tussling going on in the south. And that’s it.

Dr Rad 56:55
Okay. All right. Well, let’s get into it. Dr. G, it’s time for the Partial Pick

So tell me, Dr. G., exactly how does the Partial Pick work?

Dr G 57:11
Alright, so Rome, could potentially win 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each out of 10. Let us see how they do according to their own systems of valuing themselves.

Dr Rad 57:25
But judged by us.

Dr G 57:28
We certainly wouldn’t judge the Romans. The first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 57:33
Okay. Well, I think this is a bad a year for that. I mean, they can’t get Anxur which seemed difficult. And yet, they did it with relatively little trouble.

Dr G 57:46
Seems to go pretty well, really, once they got the mountain caterwauling going on, and they were fine.

Dr Rad 57:55
Ahala they have it? I don’t it’s also the apparent year that military pay was introduced deep reservations. But this is what we’re told. And I believe it is corroborated by a number of sources. So gonna have to believe Livy here. So I kind of am tempted to give them 10 out of 10.

Dr G 58:16
Wow. Okay.

Dr Rad 58:19
I mean, I could go as low as eight. But I don’t think it can be any lower than that.

Dr G 58:24
Let’s say nine. I’m always the ever the diplomat. I think yeah, I’m wondering what would be a 10 now for me, but uh, I think it would be more than the taking of one place, and the putative introduction of military pay. But yes.

Dr Rad 58:46
Look, I think we can believe that they are introducing some form of compensation, potentially just for the time that they are fighting with me.

Dr G 58:56
Look, I think my concern is, first of all, that in the very fragments resources that I have the siege with they would have had to start in 406. Because it’s, the payment is a consequence of a military situation. Not the inducement to encourage a military force

Dr Rad 59:19
Dr. G., the patricians are way too clever. They knew they knew that this would win the pavilions onto their side again.

Dr G 59:29
I have a high degree of skepticism about Livy’s timeline here, even within the narrow bracket in which he’s providing so

Dr Rad 59:40
Timeline schimeline.

Dr G 59:42
it seems far more likely to me that military payment is introduced as a consequence of certain things happening. But yes, oh,

Dr Rad 59:51
Oh the patricians are far more devious and you give them credit for politicians par excellence?

Dr G 1:00:01
That is not what we have seen so far and you know it. Nice try. All right. I’ll give them a nine. That’s fine. Okay. And then we move on to Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:14
We may. I don’t know that there’s not even vague, vague.

Dr G 1:00:19
I was gonna say he doesn’t try to be diplomatic and Rome certainly doesn’t try to solve that situation with diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:25
The insults are for lying.

Dr G 1:00:27
That’s a failure on every level.

Dr Rad 1:00:29
Unfortunately, a zero

Dr G 1:00:31
Expansion.

Dr Rad 1:00:33
Yes.

Dr G 1:00:35
I assume at this point, it’s obviously hard to know. But the the assumption that seems to be built into Livy’s narrative, and the fragments that I’ve got as well is that they get to hold Anxur for a while if not forever.

Dr Rad 1:00:51
Yeah.

Dr G 1:00:51
So this is the moment where they do expand their territory. And it’s significant because it is much further from Rome than say something like for Verrugo and even Antium, which they have struggled to hold in the past.

Dr Rad 1:01:04
Well fairly recently it would seem. Yeah. Okay. So what are you willing to give them Dr. G?

Dr G 1:01:12
Look, I think a six.

Dr Rad 1:01:13
What, what? It’s of strategic significance!

Dr G 1:01:20
It’s one place.

Dr Rad 1:01:21
I know, but it’s going to be just one place for a while now.

Dr G 1:01:25
Which is, you know, I mean,

Dr Rad 1:01:27
how about a seven?

Dr G 1:01:31
Fine.

Dr Rad 1:01:32
Yay.

I’m on your side Rome. Together, we’ll get over 25 and 50.

Dr G 1:01:40
Meanwhile, I’ll keep giving them low scores. I just want to see more effort guys. All right. Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:01:51
Okay,

Dr G 1:01:52
Their idea of Roman manliness. Like, how courageous How significant is their expression of their masculinity right now?

Dr Rad 1:02:06
Well, I think there’s a bit of virtus in this episode.

Dr G 1:02:08
It’s been a while. We’ve definitely seen some scars. We have maybe too many scars.

Dr Rad 1:02:14
Definitely too many. I have scars for life.

Dr G 1:02:19
But I think as soon as anybody takes off their tunic to show their scars, I think we can safely say we’re in a virtus moment.

Dr Rad 1:02:27
Yeah. It’s not the best moment.

Dr G 1:02:29
It’s not the best moment. But it is an inducement. It is a display in public of how they’ve contributed to Romanness through their body.

Dr Rad 1:02:41
Yeah.

Dr G 1:02:42
So this idea that Roman manhood is embodied in a really particular way. And one of those really particular ways is through that military sacrifice, and the courage that it takes to not flee from battle, because the thing about showing your wounds is the wounds have to be on the front of your body. Or on the back in order to count for waiters. Nobody wants to see that you ran away, and somebody tried to stab you.

Dr Rad 1:03:09
I’m super curious as to why Livy’s Like there’s not even any space on their bodies. For most guys. I’m like, Well, they’d want to be on the back.

Dr G 1:03:18
Well, maybe, and maybe he’s talking exclusively about the front,

Dr Rad 1:03:23
I assume as much is the case

Dr G 1:03:23
Maybe it’s the case that some of the skirmishes do lead to a lot of other kinds of scars.

Dr Rad 1:03:29
This is true, but yeah, Look, I mean, especially for someone who is a Roman citizen, and although I might be projecting backwards a little bit, but I think that this is probably true for this time. In theory, also showing your body in public is not something that you do on a regular basis.

Dr G 1:03:49
Yeah, the Romans aren’t into that. They’re not very, they’re not very cool with bodies. This is where well before the time that they come into, like strong contact with Greek culture and really embrace some of that stuff. Yeah, but even when they do embrace the Greek cultural side, there’s a whole bunch of Greek things that the Greeks are comfortable with that the Romans are never never comfortable with to do with body

Dr Rad 1:04:10
The Romans as a people were there like there’s a time and a place and a status. Slaves are the ones you know, slaves and prostitutes and gladiators. You’re all the ones that show off your bodies in public, not I.

Dr G 1:04:25
The Romans are an awkward people when it comes to some stuff to do with bodies. So yeah, yeah. They’d be like, Oh, okay, all the scars are at the front. Verified. Please put the tunic back on.

Dr Rad 1:04:35
Put it away. So what like a three do you think?

Dr G 1:04:38
Ooh, maybe a four.

Dr Rad 1:04:41
Oh okay. Hey, big spender.

Dr G 1:04:43
Hello.

Dr Rad 1:04:45
All right. All right. Okay. final category.

Dr G 1:04:47
Our final category is the Citizens Score

Well they are very excited

The citizens do score don’t they

Dr Rad 1:04:54
They really do they do. They know what’s coming but they think they do.

Dr G 1:05:00
Like, Oh, hail the fathers.

Dr Rad 1:05:04
I mean, to think about all the times that the citizens have been so unhappy, and all of a sudden had to do was institute military pay.

Dr G 1:05:13
The solution was right there, guys.

Dr Rad 1:05:15
I mean, having said this, obviously, as we’ve, as we’ve talked about, this is presumably opening the door for a wider range of people to serve. So presumably, it’s people who haven’t served much before that might be super exciting.

Dr G 1:05:33
Yeah, Look, I don’t want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Yeah, no, we shouldn’t I don’t think this is evidence of a system of payment.

Dr Rad 1:05:41
Oh, no, it isn’t. Like at the moment, they’re just like, Oh, my God just came out of nowhere. took me by surprise.

Dr G 1:05:49
You know what, I’m gonna volunteer. That’s what I’m gonna do.

Dr Rad 1:05:52
So you know what, actually, this is very much this. I don’t know if you remember this scene in Sliding Doors, and it’s popped up in a few other comedies since the idea that men only buy flowers spontaneously when they’ve done something wrong. I feel like that is what is going on here, Dr G. The patricians only gave us so when they’ve got any evil plan working in their back pocket. Bad luck. The citizens are very excited. Presumably, this is affecting a wider range of citizens and we’re normally talking about

Dr G 1:06:26
Yeah, and it does seem that on the flip side, the military campaigning that Rome has engaged in in this year with Anxur has gone well,

Dr Rad 1:06:37
Absolutely. Booty.

Dr G 1:06:41
Very good for the Romans.

Dr Rad 1:06:43
That’s what we care about at the moment, we can deal with we can be sympathetic, but once we’re scoring, it’s all Rome.

Dr G 1:06:48
That exactly, so I think it’s a pretty good time to be a Roman citizen.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Yeah. Should we give it like a seven?

Dr G 1:06:55
Oooo Let’s.

Dr Rad 1:06:56
Oh my god. Dr. G., to you realize that that means that for the first time in a really long time, their variants have got just over 50% they’re on 27 Golden Eagles.

Dr G 1:07:12
Oh, well done, Ancient Rome. Yeah, all it took was a big military victory and paying your troops being nice to people who would have needed the basics, the basics, guys.

Dr Rad 1:07:28
All right, well, what a high day I can’t wait to talk about four or five with you. It’s gonna be another big year. I think. I’m excited.

Dr G 1:07:40
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there’s a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you’re keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book ‘Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome’ at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 148 – It’s All About the Money, Honey! appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

Back in 409 BCE, the Romans had captured the fortifications of Verrugo from their Volscian foe. Unfortunately, in this episode we must discuss the bloody fall of Verrugo.

Episode 147 – The Fall of Verrugo

The Romans had seized Verrugo after Carventum was retaken by the Aequians, allies of the Volscians. Verrugo was located in Volscian territory to the south of Rome. This had seemed like a huge triumph as they had secured lots of booty along with the fort.

In 407 BCE, the garrison that had been left behind sent an urgent message for help, hidden in a small droid. The Romans took their sweet time to send reinforcements. When they arrived, a terrible scene greeted them…

Join us in this short episode on the fall of Verrugo!  

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

This transcript has been automatically generated by Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And

Dr G 0:30
I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to another episode of the Partial Historians and ancient Roman history podcasts. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,

Dr G 1:10
and I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:13
Hey, hated Dr G, what’s happening?

Dr G 1:16
Oh you know, just sitting down ready to talk about Ancient Rome in all of its glory.

Dr Rad 1:24
We are in an exciting moment, Dr. G, because we’ve been tracing the journey of Rome from the founding of the city and we are slowly edging our way towards the turn into a new century, which I find very exciting. I don’t know why because of course, centuries are arbitrary that, hey,

Dr G 1:39
I think it is exciting. Partly because as historians, we tend to periodize things mentally. So it’s like, even though it might not just be another year, it holds a certain significance, because we start to think about, well, we’ll call it a different century. And maybe there’ll be some different evidence coming through and maybe events will shift who knows what we’ll discover.

Dr Rad 2:04
Indeed, now, if you haven’t been listening to the podcast up until now, I highly recommend you go back because we’ve been talking a lot about the conflict of the orders, which is between these two supposes groups, the patricians and plebeians. And quite frankly, we can’t read capital here.

Dr G 2:19
It’s long and arduous. And let’s just say the patricians are probably on the balance still on top.

Dr Rad 2:29
Indeed, and the plebeians are, on the whole, not. So Dr G. We’re up to 407 this episode, but before we get into that, what happened in 408 BC? Well,

Dr G 2:43
if my recollection serves 408, was marked by a little bit of military tribunes with consular power, then that gave way to a dictator and his master of the horse.

Dr Rad 2:58
Not without some slappy fighting though.

Dr G 3:00
No, there was there was some upset folk amongst that. But nevertheless, it went ahead. And they headed down to Antium, which is south of Rome, but on the coast. And they took back what I think Rome thought was theirs, which was control of Antium. Because Antium had sort of started to get into a little bit of a situation with the Volscii and the Aequians. And although it seems like they were laughing at those guys, at in any case, there seem to be a confluence of these groups of peoples in the south towards Antium. And Rome was not having that they were like, that’s gonna, that looks like collaboration. We’re not into that kind of thing. Let’s go down and put a stop to that right there. And they did,

Dr Rad 3:49
indeed, with remarkable ease.

Dr G 3:52
So easy that we have no details about the battle. Exactly.

Dr Rad 3:56
Which means that I think it’s time for us to dive in to 407 BC.

Dr G 4:18
It’s 407 BCE. What a time to be alive.

Dr Rad 4:24
It is now I did. I did give a bit of a spoiler last time, which is that we know that we’ve got military tribunes with consular power, which means there is a possibility for the plebeians. But once again, I did ruin it by saying that they weren’t going to be any elected. So we know it’s going to be all patricians. all the time.

Dr G 4:42
Patricians all the way down. So we get four of them voted in as military tribunes with consular power for 407.

Dr Rad 4:50
Indeed, now I also did let slip that they all have previous experience in this position

Dr G 4:56
they do which kind of suggests that Rome whether our animalistic sources are telling us or not seems to suggest that Rome in this period, maybe had some military qualms, and were concerned about things that were going on in the general neighbourhood. So maybe they wanted some experienced players in there. I

Dr Rad 5:16
think they had an evil plan. I think Rome was planning to take over the world and by the world I mean, some more tearing

Dr G 5:28
things next door at the very least.

Dr Rad 5:32
God dammit, I want those things next door.

Dr G 5:36
I see whatsoever on that fence. The grass is greener, and I shall have it

Dr Rad 5:40
that we mark we mark but by this point, Rome is actually the preeminent power in this area at this point in time.

Dr G 5:49
They are they seem to be consistently winning now. At least from what we’ve seen from the last few years. That wasn’t true before. No.

Dr Rad 5:59
And like the Etruscans are They’re more just there. They’re not like, you know,

Dr G 6:04
oh, well, let’s Look for that one too much. Wait for it, guys.

Dr Rad 6:08
Like they did they are there but they’re not like menacing Rome really.

Dr G 6:13
They haven’t come south for some rains for a little while. No, like, anyway, we’ll see. We’ll see. I’m looking forward to what happens in this year because all I have is a great passage to read out to you from Diodorus Siculus yet again. And in terms of evidence, literally the FastI Capitolini Which I’ve supplemented as always with Broughton, who I adore. Yeah, so our military tributes are Lucius Furius Medullinus. A Furii.

Dr Rad 6:47
Yeah. Now we have met this particular Furii before I believe we

Dr G 6:52
certainly have and very recently as well, he was previously consul in 413. And also in 409, which was not that long ago. No,

Dr Rad 7:02
and that was the big you and everyone was very upset because a plebeian being actually got somewhere. How

Dr G 7:07
How dare they? Very rude. Then we have Gaius Valerius Volusi Potitus Volusus.

Dr Rad 7:17
Another familiar name.

Dr G 7:18
Indeed. So he was previously consequent 410. Yeah. And also a military Tribune with consular power in 415. Hmm.

Dr Rad 7:28
So he swings both ways. He

Dr G 7:30
doesn’t mind what you call the position as long as he gets it.

Dr Rad 7:35
Oh, yeah.

Dr G 7:38
That kind of guy. We have a guy who’s praenomen is up for grabs, but only because Livy is wrong. I know.

Dr Rad 7:49
Shocking, shocking. So that’s fine.

Dr G 7:54
Majority of sources for this period suggest that he’s probable nomen is going to be Numerius. Okay, but Livy seems to think it might be Gnaeus.

Dr Rad 8:08
Well, I mean, isn’t that just fitting in with the whole idea that he has numerous praenomens.

Dr G 8:18
I have sad news listeners. I have to retire from this podcast now. So we’ve got Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Vibulanus, okay, previously consul in 421 and military tribune with consular power in 415. So an old colleague of our Volusus friends friends indeed are friends in indeed, yeah. And finally, to round out this group of four is Gaius Servilius. Ahala.

Dr Rad 8:53
Well colour me completely unsurprised.

Dr G 8:57
Yeah. This guy’s back for the second year in a row. Yes.

Dr Rad 9:00
But he made quite a splash last year. So yeah, I’m not surprised. I understand that the Romans probably like him very much. Indeed. It certainly would seem that way. Yeah, I mean, Livy’s explicitly says that Ahala was reelected because he was just so awesome.

Dr G 9:19
It makes sense. I mean, he done a great job being the sensible one of the military tribunes and 408 and was rewarded with his upgrade to master of the horse for being sensible. So everybody knows he’s a good egg and are very reliable at this point.

Dr Rad 9:36
Well, yes, everyone patrician but sure.

Dr G 9:40
ruin the illusion.

Dr Rad 9:44
I got my elite goggles on. I’m ready.

Dr G 9:47
So that’s basically all I

Dr Rad 9:50
know. This whole year. All right. Oh, good. Let’s get into it. Okay, so this is going to be a little bit confusing, I think for the next we’ll actually Probably the next 20 years, but maybe particularly now. So Livy tells me that this is the year in which the truce that room had with they runs out. As I as we’ve noted that after, you know, quite a lot of shuffling, things have been fairly quiet on the Etruscan front, you know, up until now, like it’s hasn’t been too bad. And they is definitely a part of that Etruscan northern people. They’re not united as we know, they are, they all have their own little thing going on there. But they obviously share culture. They, however, is the one that we keep coming back to probably because it’s obviously like the closest to Rome. Indeed.

Dr G 10:47
So Veii is considered one of the southernmost points of a Etrurian influence in terms of established city. Yeah. And it’s like they do have a sort of remit of influence that goes further south than that to a certain extent. But this is their last sort of big settlement to the south.

Dr Rad 11:06
Yeah. Now, the reason why I say this is going to be a bit confusing is that there is there I should perhaps say, questions about the dating of this. So as you highlighted, actually, in previous episodes, the timing and other sources like diet or set we’ve been seeing for a few episodes, now, it doesn’t really always match up with what Livy’s is saying. And it does actually say that levy is potentially wrong. It seems like they’ve maybe tweaked the dates a little bit, because they’ve wanted things to happen at particular time. Oh,

Dr G 11:46
what? interference with the source material? Livy, what are you doing?

Dr Rad 11:52
I Look, it’s it’s probably also the fact that as we know, there’s you know, like, not the best source material probably for this time period. So what’s the year here or there between friends when the source material is patchy and unreliable anyway? Yeah. So is actually quite likely that the truce, potentially doesn’t happen in this year.

Dr G 12:16
Like that, as in the truce doesn’t run out?

Dr Rad 12:19
Yeah, yeah. Okay. It doesn’t seem to quite add up. At this point in time. This is what we’re dealing with. So let’s just run with it. So the Romans want to, you know, find out what’s going on and probably renew it, I suppose. And they want to do it in a very formal way. They want to make sure everything’s correct. So they’re sending out ambassadors and the fetiales strategy. Oh,

Dr G 12:43
I think that’s a good idea. If you want to get something done properly, it’s got to be right in the eyes of the gods.

Dr Rad 12:49
Indeed, if you could, perhaps remind us what the fetiales are.

Dr G 12:53
The sweet fetiales? Well, we haven’t heard from them in a while, and haven’t but I suspect that that is not because they’ve not been doing anything, I suspect, it’s because our narrative sources have just sort of passed over them and assume that the reader understands that they’re turning up to things. So these guys operate as a pair, usually. And they’re very involved in making sure that if a conflict is likely to occur, that the signs are right with the gods, that Rome will be victorious. So they go out and they’re looking for things. And usually, if the situation is looking a little bit dire, and it looks like war is going to happen, they’ll get pretty dressed up, one of them will, where they’re very formal attire, the other one will be a bit more plain, and they’ll start doing eating again, sequence. Yeah, you know, a little bit of purple, a little bit of gold, you know, you gotta Look good. And they will deliberately walk towards me enemy territory. And they’re both looking for signs, and they’re also reciting certain things. So they’re making sort of a ritual gesture, everything about the sort of the speaking component of this is really important. If you’re a priest, you always wanted to have very clear and precise enunciation of words, it becomes one of the ways in which you communicate appropriately with the gods. So they’ll get to the edge of Roman controlled territory, and the enemy territory and they’ll recite appropriately be like, you know, this is a situation we call upon the gods, you know, bow down to Rome, etc, etc. If not, war is coming for you. And then they’ll proceed into that territory and keep reciting that kind of thing at intervals until they get to the city itself. So ultimately, the ambassadors are kind of like your diplomatic mission, and they probably have gone on ahead to sort of negotiate and work out some terms, and then the fetiales turn up and that’s kind of the time where negotiations should have been concluded by now. The enemy should have a good idea that they’re not going to make war with Rome appropriately and would respond in kind to the press. Slowly sort of incantations that are being offered to them, if they don’t wash alphabets, if the signs are good, and ruin doesn’t get the response that’s required, it’s time sending the armed forces. I think the very worst thing anybody could do would be to kill the fetiales. If they turned up in enemy territory, that would be a huge issue.

Dr Rad 15:19
Yeah, that’s like killing the Red Cross or something. Yeah.

Dr G 15:23
So we don’t have a report of that. At least not yet. But I guess we’ll find out soon.

Dr Rad 15:28
All right, well, I actually kind of love the way that this is all playing out. Because it’s very much like the Romans are like, cool. I got to renew my car insurance, better get ahead of that. Because the Romans trotting out with their little band of people. And when they get to the frontier of I guess they’re tearing their respective territories, because of course, there has been conflict between these guys in the past. And I think they know very well, where, you know, their sphere of influences are they actually run into an embassy from Veii? Oh,

Dr G 15:57
that’s convenient. Again,

Dr Rad 16:00
I just love the fact that they’re both like, Well,

Dr G 16:03
wait a minute. Are you coming to see me? Because I’m coming to see you. Yeah,

Dr Rad 16:07
it’s been 20 years now. Yeah. So they say, Look, would you mind not going to Vegas right now, we’d really like to speak to the Roman Senate first. Oh, interesting. So the Romans agree the Senate agree to say that because apparently everybody knows that they is having some embarrassing domestic problems.

Dr G 16:31
Ooh, somebody pooedtheir pants? Well, if

Dr Rad 16:35
we’ve learned anything from doing this podcast up to God, we have learned that room would kick somebody when they’re down. And so at least that’s what they seem to think about themselves. And so they’re like, there would be no honour in dealing with Veii right now, because they’re having internal problems. And we respect that

Dr G 16:55
as a place that has many internal problems ourselves.

Dr Rad 17:00
Indeed, yes. And now, apparently, this is kind of backed up with what we know. Now, as you know, Dr. G, we don’t have great sources from an Etruscan perspective. Like, there’s some archaeology and you know, there’s bits and pieces, and there’s stuff that rocks, you know, that turns up in our room and sources or programmers sources, but we don’t have like long narrative histories from an Etruscan point of view, which is a real shame. However, it does seem like there was potentially some internal unrest, and that this does have something to do with the fact that the Etruscans do start to peter out.

Dr G 17:41
Okay. So as far as we’re aware, at this point in time, the last time that we really, or at least the last time, I really remember Veii, it was the issue with Lars Tolumnius. And he’s one of the Etruscan kings, and he was his remit was included Veii. So the fact that they lost one of their key leaders, they don’t, maybe they’ve not necessarily bounced back from that in a strong way. Look, it

Dr Rad 18:08
could be that but apparently, a trust in society does seem to have been quite classist. And this may have contributed to additional internal problems, as well as the fact that you know, that King got pretty severely killed anyway. But for now, room is like, yeah, no problems. Well, we’ll chat we’ll chat you know, later, no problems. So now we switch to the other people with a V that we’ve been talking about, Volscians, ah, the Romans, as we know, have recently conquered a place called Verrugo.

Dr G 18:45
But that that name will never not make me laugh, Verrugo.

Dr Rad 18:51
Verrugo, I go! So the garrison that they had left behind to hold Verrugo sent a message saying, Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope. Yeah. Now, there was a chance that the Romans, of course, could have managed to tough this out, make it work. But unfortunately, the relief horses that they sent just didn’t arrive in time, which makes me think that the Romans when they received the urgent message, were like, Can I just finish my snack and I’ve only got like five minutes left in the TV show. And then I’ve just got to have a quick shower and change. Oh, my God, where did I put my shoes and umbrella, it looks like it’s going to rain and I can’t leave until I found my umbrella. But anyway, by the time the Romans show up, the Volscians, busy plundering away after having slaughtered the Roman garrison. That is not good. Yeah. Again, apart from my, my little aside, that actually the reason that caused them to be a bit slow, was to do with of course, the leadership, the military tribunes and this Senate, they had heard That, obviously they needed help, because well, they’re the people that the message was addressed to. But they seem to have kind of overlooks the fact that a garrison is just a small force and therefore, they weren’t going to be able to hold out, you know, indefinitely. Okay, so they just kind of were they were in a rush. Yeah, they will just go. Yeah, we’ll get around to it.

Dr G 20:21
Yeah, that’s a garrison there. That’s what really we have a military presence. It’d be fun. Yeah. Because the Volscii have

Dr Rad 20:28
exactly like, Look how easily we defeated them just a year ago, maybe not even a year ago.

Dr G 20:33
I see. So yeah, maybe a little bit of hubris, and maybe a little bit of miscalculation, perhaps.

Dr Rad 20:40
But of course, such a horrific outcome. Could not be overlooked up today. No,

Dr G 20:47
it’s embarrassing. I mean, if room wants to say face, they really do need to retake for rugo. Now,

Dr Rad 20:53
they really do. And that’s going to take me into 406 BCE.

Dr G 20:58
Ooh okay. Well, before we launch into 406 vc, yes. Let me introduce you to what I think is so far, the greatest passage of Diodorus Siculus. Oh, please. So he starts a new book, that oh, it comes into this year, okay. And this frames, everything. So he kind of is like putting a nice little present around this new book. So I just want to read the opening to you, which is it, it’s reasonably long, but I think it’s fine. And then I’ll give you a little bit of insight into like the sort of broader politics that are happening here. Okay, so over to Diodorus and I quote, All men, perhaps naturally, are disinclined to listen to obloquy keys that are uttered against them. Indeed, even those whose evil doing is in every respect, so manifest that I cannot even be denied. Nonetheless, deeply resented when they are the objects of censure, and endeavour to make a reply to the accusation. Consequently, all men should take every possible care not to commit any evil deed, and those especially who aspire to leadership, or have been favoured by some striking gift or fortune. For since the life of such men is in all things, an open book because of that distinction, it cannot conceal its own on wisdom. Let no man therefore, who has gained some kind of preeminence, cherished the hope that if he commits great crimes, he will for all time escaped notice and go uncentered. For even if during his own lifetime, he alludes the sentence of rebuke, let him expect that at a later time, Truth will find him out. Frankly, proclaiming abroad matters long hidden from mention. It is therefore a hard fate for wicked men, that at their death, they leave to posterity an undying image, so to speak, of their entire life, for even if those things that follow after death do not concern us, as certain philosophers keep chanting. Nevertheless, the life which has preceded death becomes far worse throughout all time, for the evil memory that it enjoys. Manifest examples of this may be found by those who read the detailed story contained in

Dr Rad 23:17
this book. I love that that would be quite the thing to read to, oh, I don’t know, all politicians,

Dr G 23:26
I think so. I feel like there’s a real resonance for the world as it stands right now. And there are many people who would have benefited from thinking about this lesson.

Dr Rad 23:35
You know, I’m gonna throw in leaders of large corporations and small ones and medium sized ones to

Dr G 23:44
in fact, anybody in a position of power will benefit from this advice,

Dr Rad 23:48
absolutely. Parents too, what the hell.

Dr G 23:52
So this is whatever is coming up in Diodorus. And it’s not going to be really about Rome, I would hazard a guess because he tends to lay it nearly gives them like one sentence every couple of years, and moves on to other things. But this is a really big time for Athens in particular. So in Diodorus is narrative we’re in about 404 – 403 BCE, and this means that although the Peloponnesian War is over, we’re immediately thrown into the situation with the Spartan oligarchy known as the 30 tyrants. Ooh, let

Dr Rad 24:28
me have talks about this. Yeah. Which is pretty

Dr G 24:31
bad. Yeah. And that’s the thing that’s happening. Meanwhile, in other gossipy news, for those who are interested in a little bit of Greek history, the really famous or infamous Alcibiades ides of Athens is put to death by Pharnabazus. A satrap of King Darius in Persia. So that doesn’t go well. Also, this is the year where We lose the philosopher Democritus. For those interested in nature and philosophy. He had a good innings, he got to 90, it’s not so bad. And also we do get a mention of, again, I’ll quote in Italy, the Roman garrison of Erruca in brackets Verrugo. He doesn’t know the name of the place. A city of the Volscii was attacked by the enemy, who captured the city in slew most of the defenders.

Dr Rad 25:29
This is very true. And that it has been well correct apart from the name of the

Dr G 25:34
plane. So correct except for not knowing where it is, what it’s called. But yeah, he gives one whole sentence to that situation.

Dr Rad 25:46
I love it.

Dr G 25:47
So we will say that it’s a cliffhanger episode right now.

Dr Rad 25:53
Yeah, so unfortunately, I know you’re dying to know how the Romans are going to deal with this situation in Verrugo. But I’m afraid you’re just going to have to wait to the next episode. Because 406 is so gigantic, that if we talked about it now, you’d be here for like, the next two hours, I think.

Dr G 26:09
We certainly don’t want to deprive you of that. But we’re gonna give it its own two hour slot in the future.

Dr Rad 26:14
We will all right, Dr. G. Well, that means that it’s time for the partial pick

Dr G 26:18
up boy. Miscellaneous ego noise here. It’s the partial pick, it is the time where we rank Rome, against its own qualities, the things that it values most. So there are five categories each are possible to get 10 Golden Eagles in so that means if room is doing its very best to be its best self, it’ll get 50 Golden Eagles.

Dr Rad 26:43
Look, I’m not gonna lie. I feel like we’ve kind of set room up for failure here. Not a lot happening. And four, seven, certainly not a lot to their advantage. And they’ve would I think, have had a more interesting score if we’d been able to do them together, but it’s just not gonna happen. We’re just gonna have to, you have to cop it on the chin.

Dr G 27:03
I think there’ll be fine. They’ll survive. Yeah. All right. So

Dr Rad 27:06
what’s our first category Dr G?

Dr G 27:07
Our first category is military clout? Definitely. No. That is a big no. What they do is what they dilly dally, and they leave their garrison unsupported.

Dr Rad 27:21
And they all get killed.

Dr G 27:24
Even Diodorus noticed, that’s how bad it is.

Dr Rad 27:28
Exactly, exactly. I feel like yeah, it being corroborated is reassuring. Okay.

Dr G 27:33
So 00 Okay, diplomacy.

Dr Rad 27:38
Okay. Now, there is something to work with here. Because the Romans actually seem to be trying quite hard to get along with they.

Dr G 27:45
Yeah, I think there is something to be said for them accepting that they will receive those ambassadors from Veii rather than just powering on with sending their own and talking at cross purposes.

Dr Rad 27:58
Yeah. And they’re also imagining that they are a kind and fair people. Cute. So I Look, I’d be willing to give them an aid for that. Well, I mean, it’s some diplomacy. Like we very rarely see this.

Dr G 28:10
Yeah. I mean, it’s some diplomacy. It’s not like they’ve conceded anything. They’ve just said, Sure. We’ll listen to you.

Dr Rad 28:19
But then they were like, Look, we know you’re having issues and you don’t want to talk right now. So we’ll give you some personal time.

Dr G 28:26
What more could one ask from a friend?

Dr Rad 28:28
Okay, I’ll go for like a six. How about a six?

Dr G 28:31
I think that’s far more reasonable. I can. Six. Okay. The third category is expansion. Definitely

Dr Rad 28:40
not. It looks like they’re facing some serious reverses. If anything, they’ve slightly contracted. Oh, they definitely have. Yeah. So that would be a zero. Yep. All right.

Dr G 28:51
We’re to us now. Yes, good old fashioned Roman virtue is not on display here. I don’t think we get enough sort of characters coming through in our source material right now to make an assessment. So I think we have to give them nothing. Exactly. And finally the citizen score.

Dr Rad 29:11
Well, Look, they’re not technically at war, but I don’t feel like citizens would feel great about the whole vertigo situation. I mean, it’s their countrymen that are being slain, seemingly because the Senate and the military Tribunes forgot that a garrison is not a large army.

Dr G 29:31
Wow. Oh, maybe they just thought oh, who knows?

Dr Rad 29:36
I probably more being overly confident in their room and numbness but you know,

Dr G 29:42
alright, so it’s not a great time to be a citizen. But it’s not the worst time there hasn’t been like a forced levee. Some people have died, but not a lot of people have died because they didn’t send any backups. So

Dr Rad 29:57
not yet. But Look, I’m willing to only give it like too seriously, because we just don’t get enough information like it’s what’s to say, Yeah, I’m fine with that. Okay. That means after Dr G that the Romans have finished 407, on a grand total of eight out of 50 Golden Eagles. Oh,

Dr G 30:14
now that is, yes, this is what happens when you only Look at a single year without a lot of source material. It’s

Dr Rad 30:22
true. But you know what it was worth it to hear that passage from Diodorus

Dr G 30:26
Diodorus. I I’m like he’s given us a really sort of nice sort of moral outlook for what is to come. And I know, although he’s not very interested in Roman history, necessarily, that it stands as good advice to all those who achieved positions of power. How do you want to be remembered for your legacy? How do you want your memory to come through in subsequent times? Those things that you think you’re getting away with? Now, we’ll come back to count against your memory?

Dr Rad 30:57
Unless, of course, because world leaders and corporations are failing to do as much as they need to on climate change. History ceases to exist with humans.

Dr G 31:10
Yeah, Look, let us pray and hope and take a local action wherever we can to do our best to ward off such a fate.

Dr Rad 31:20
There definitely like let’s face it, climate change doesn’t mean that, you know, if we fail to act enough, which we are, it doesn’t mean that humans are going to be extinct like that. And therefore miss deeds will be remembered, at least for our future.

Dr G 31:36
They certainly will. And we can we can see the globe changing all the time in terms of its climate. So yeah, and

Dr Rad 31:43
the good news is we actually have all the technology and all the science that we need, what we the only thing we’re really lacking is action.

Dr G 31:52
Action. Yeah, moral leadership.

Dr Rad 31:56
Indeed. Well, on that very philosophical note, Dr. G

Dr G 32:00
it has been a pleasure to chat as always.

Dr Rad 32:13
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy de Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. We always like to thank our beloved Patreon but today we would like to give a special shout out to some lovely people who bought us a coffee on cofee. Tina, Jackie and Anne Marie. Thank you so much for your caffeinated thoughts. However, if you’re feeling like your currency has been devalued by an evil Emperor, then please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for our book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 147 – The Fall of Verrugo appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

In this episode, the people of Antium start provoking the Aequians and the Volscians into war with Rome by calling them COWARDS. How else could they respond but to say, “Nobody calls me chicken!”

Episode 146 – Nobody Calls Me Chicken!

With the Antiates, Volscians and Aequians ganged up against them, the Romans decide it’s time for a dictator! Not all of the military tribunes were terribly happy with this decision. Ahala seems to have been the only magistrate who could put the state before his own ambitions.

As a reward for being such a dazzling military tribune, Ahala was chosen to serve as master of the horse, the assistant to the dictator.

Leaving his grumbling colleagues behind, Ahala and the dictator headed off to face the foe.

Tune in to hear how the Romans fare against THREE of their rivals.

Want to revisit a previous clash with Antium? Check out Episode 99 – Tusculum and Antium.

A mosaic of roosters fighting. Nobody calls them chicken! Courtesy of Amphipolis on Flickr.

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of Orange Free Sounds.

This transcript was automatically generated by Otter AI.

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the partial historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And

Dr G 0:30
I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:04
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of your favourite ancient Roman History podcast. The partial historians I am Dr. Rad

psych it’s a new year.

I’m Dr. G

Dr Rad 1:30
Excellent. And I am Dr Rad. I am a very confused little Dr Rad.

Dr G 1:36
I was just thinking, you know, new year we’ll switch it up. We’ll see if anybody notices you notice straight away though.

Dr Rad 1:43
Well, you know, it’s a fairly distinctive name. I’ve had it all my life.

Dr G 1:48
Well, well, well.

Dr Rad 1:52
Well, welcome back. Dr. G. We are indeed in a new year. It’s 2024.

Dr G 1:57
At time of recording, yes,

Dr Rad 2:01
it is a time of recording. And in terms of tracing the journey of room from the founding of the city. We had a very big episode last episode where we were talking about 409 BCE.

Dr G 2:16
Yeah, not only is this like the landmark year that marks this first century of the Roman Republic, but oh, boy, was it full of plebeian action.

Dr Rad 2:28
It was indeed, I believe that after some lengthy handwringing, and some classic conflict of the orders narrative, we did finally get a plebeian into the quaestorship.

Dr G 2:42
That’s madness. It’s crazy. I won’t stand for it.

Dr Rad 2:46
Please, well, just going to end I mean, that’s all equality ever really needs, isn’t it?

Dr G 2:51
It’s all over guys. I don’t know how the patricians are going to hold up anymore. There’s not enough fast cars or enough muscle to get them through this.

Dr Rad 3:00
They certainly did Look at it as a sign that the world was about to end,

Dr G 3:04
indeed, but I don’t think it has fallen apart completely. Because we’re here to talk about what happens after 409.

Dr Rad 3:11
We will the privilege maintain their position of privilege? Or will they have to concede more to whoever mysterious people that will be? And actually,

Dr G 3:25
I guess we’ll find out. The other thing that’s running parallel to this whole situation is what appears to be an expanded conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians. So Rome is going through a bit of a military upheaval.

Dr Rad 3:39
They are indeed I mean, we’ve talked about these guys on and off, you know, for a while now, but it does seem to be particularly flaring up at this point in the century.

Dr G 3:51
Indeed. So with that sort of background in place, I think we might be ready to step into 408 BC.

Dr Rad 4:00
408 BCE. Now, Dr. G, I’m presuming Dionysius is still keeping his distance from you.

Dr G 4:27
That man is hiding from me in his fragments, and I don’t know what is going on.

Dr Rad 4:33
Oh, Dr. G, has no narrative source material once again. I’ll bet you anything. She can tell us who the magistrates are for this year.

Dr G 4:42
Yeah, Look, I mean, it’s not so bad. I can tell you things like who’s who? I do have the Fasti Capitolini, which is the ultimate guide to who’s who as far as most of us are concerned. And I have some little snippets from Diodorus Siculus as well. So we’ll get to those in due course. Okay. Okay. But we start off with a year where military tribunes with consular power appear to have been voted in. Yes. And we have three of these guys this year. Yes, we have Gaius Iulius Vopisci Iullus. A patrician. We have Publius Cornelius Cossus a patrician. Yeah. And a Gaius Servilius Ahala, a patrician.

Dr Rad 5:31
Well, Dr. G, I can’t say that I’m surprised. But given the way the patricians were carrying on last time, I really thought that maybe this was going to be the year when finally we were going to slee or see a plebeian elected into this position. But now, once again, I am amazingly disappointed.

Dr G 5:53
It’s too soon. The quaestorship is one thing but how dare the plebeians attempt to make a grab for anything beyond this station?

Dr Rad 6:02
That’s clearly what the patricians were worried about last episode, they thought that, you know, the quaestorship was, you know, just a stepping stone and it was all going to be downhill from here, as far as they were concerned, whereas for the plebeians it seemed to be very much uphill from here.

Dr G 6:16
There does seem to be a sense in which there might be multiple issues at play, though, because usually, when the patricians become quite scared of plebeians rising in influence and power in an official capacity, they opt for the consulship as a deliberate move, to lock out plugins. So we’ve got this kind of understanding that’s given to us through our annalistic sources. Obviously, there are some question marks there. But the consulship is still the preserve of the leads, and that if a plebeian were to get into a high position, that would include a military command, it would be as a military tribute with consular power. That’s, that’s one of the rationales that’s been put forward for why this position developed in the first place. Yeah. And yet, on the back of 409, where we see a rise in plebeians coming into the quaestorship, we now see that 408 has military tribunes with consular power. So is it there’s military issues on the horizon that Rome is concerned about, and they’re going to take a risk because they haven’t opted for the consulship? Here.

Dr Rad 7:24
Now, remember that last episode, that was a point of contention, and the patricians were dead against this idea, because of the reasons you have outlined, but at least I suppose the plebeians had the opportunity. Someone elected once again and yet, didn’t take it. It’s

Dr G 7:44
like how you had your chances, plebeians and yet fluffed it?

Dr Rad 7:49
Well, I mean, Look, this is where we have to get back to the voting system, of course, as far as we can understand it, which of course, we may not be able to, because we may not really have an accurate record of what exactly was happening in order to get elected at this point in time. But I think we’ve talked before about the fact that the voting system is also rigged against people who are poor. Now, plebeians aren’t necessarily poor. That is, but if we’re talking about there being a more nuanced class divide, as we have before, where you may have wealthy plebeians who are actually voting along with patricians because their interests actually align more with the wealthy, regardless of whether they’re patrician or plebeians, and then you’ve got maybe a sizable group of plebeians who aren’t as economically stable or whatever. Yeah, that might lead to issues in the voting system, which might have been simplified over time. That’s one possible way of looking at it.

Dr G 8:53
For sure, and I think this is the sort of thing where networking and your allegiances through society become one of those things as well. The patricians have a very particular network. And I would say that the plebeians are probably trying to build those kinds of networks, but maybe aren’t necessarily getting themselves across the line with the amount of influence they need for these electoral processes to work out in their favour. Oh,

Dr Rad 9:19
absolutely. And that’s really I think, what this whole suppose and conflict of the orders is all about really, it’s not really about whether you’re patrician and plebeian in a sense, it’s about the level of privilege that you have and the amount of opportunities that are open to you. Hmm,

Dr G 9:34
well, on that note, yeah, not only do we have military attributes with consular power, but I have to assume that something does happen this year. Because we also get a dictator and their companion a master of the horse. So Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus Hmm, possibly a relation of the military tribune with consular power, Publius Cornelius Cossus.

Dr Rad 10:08
Disturbingly similar,

Dr G 10:09
very similar, very similar. It comes into the dictatorship. Now, I’m assuming that you might be able to tell me the story about how and why that will come about. Oh,

Dr Rad 10:22
live, you might have told me a thing or two.

Dr G 10:25
Well, well, well. And he also brings with him one of the military tributes with constellar power, guys. Servilius Ahala, the armpit brings him across from that roll into being his master of the horse, just

Dr Rad 10:41
in case people haven’t listened to that episode, which was a while ago. Now. She’s not just calling this guy in here. It’s not like a horrible slur. That’s what made me that’s

Dr G 10:52
that’s definitely yeah, I’m just running with the Latin guys. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s put the armpit in power. Sure. Why not?

Dr Rad 11:01
Well, this is interesting, actually. Because I mean, if we go back in time, briefly, Dr. G, it wasn’t Ahala. He was involved in a very dramatic series. I can’t even remember how long ago it was, was it last year? Was it even the year before? I think I think it might have been the year before 2022, that we were talking about the Ahala that really put this family on the math? Yes,

Dr G 11:24
I think it’s around about 439. BCE, or 431, somewhere in there, at least, nearly 20 years ago, by Roman standards, and maybe a couple of years ago by our own.

Dr Rad 11:37
And it kind of makes sense that this family is, you know, starting to creep back into the records a little bit because just to give everyone a very brief overview, the Ahala that we enjoyed talking about so much before, was involved in the scandal around the nacho king of Rome

Dr G 11:54
Spurius Maelius. Yes, yeah,

Dr Rad 11:57
there was this whole issue. To be honest, we couldn’t really figure out what on earth was going on. But it kind of seemed like an attempt by someone who wasn’t from the patrician class to curry favour, or, or he was maybe given power, and the patricians were like, oh, hell, either way, this guy ended up being essentially murdered in broad daylight. And the guy that seems to have done the murdering was Ahala. Well,

Dr G 12:23
and there’s some speculation that he got his name from that moment, because he had gone into the forum with a hidden weapon under his arm.

Dr Rad 12:32
Indeed, indeed. And the upshot of that was that he had to leave room. It’s interesting that he’s, I mean, this isn’t the same guy, obviously.

Dr G 12:43
No, but the family is clearly back. Yes, but yeah, definitely

Dr Rad 12:47
after that whole incident and the leaving of room and that sort of thing. We definitely didn’t mention that name, you know, for a while, but now it’s starting to creep back in a little bit.

Dr G 12:57
Yeah, they’ve returned and they ready to take their place in the top tier of political spots.

Dr Rad 13:03
They have spawned a generation has passed in Roman times.

Dr G 13:07
So what does happen this year? How do we get a dictator please tell me I’ve like I’ve been like tenterhooks of suspense being like, Oh, I got two names.

Dr Rad 13:18
What an excellent question. Well, let’s go back to the elections for a moment, shall we? This question of military Tribune with consular power. So Livy very smugly says that although technically, in 409, the plebs won the battle to have elections for military Tribunes, rather than consuls as you outlined for the various reasons. The patricians were the real winners in the end, because of course, only patricians got elected. Ha, ha, ha. actually knew I need to make that more upper class. Chortle Chorle Chortle.

Dr G 13:50
I was gonna say, I would like you need to be holding a glass of whiskey give me Oh,

Dr Rad 13:54
I definitely am. I sparked up a Cuban. Yeah, so obviously, we have our tribunes he got elected. So the way that the way that this happened, it wasn’t just what we’ve seen before, which is that Livy keeps telling me that, well, sure the plebeians are technically able to elect a fellow clap to this position. But why would they? I mean, how can they be persuaded to do that when there are all these amazing blue blooded candidates standing out there that dazzled by the blue blood, Dr. G, and the diamonds on the soles of their shoes? Well,

Dr G 14:29
Look, I mean, if somebody had diamonds on the soles of their shoes, I would be bamboozled.

Dr Rad 14:33
So instead, what had happened in this particular case, is that the patricians being worried obviously, because of course, they’re probably in getting this position would be the actual end of the world, not just a sign that the end of the world was coming. They and I’m quoting directly here, mix some unworthy competitors with the deserving. So yeah, basically, it was like a ruse to to choose and people that clearly weren’t going to appeal weren’t going to get elected and sort of confuse the voters. So they didn’t, they didn’t just put forward rubbish candidates or like allow rubbish candidates to run. But they made sure that it was confusing enough that a puppy and would not to get elected. Okay,

Dr G 15:19
so you want to stick with the safe bet? You’re like, oh, there’s a lot of names in here. I’m not sure if I know these people. I’m just gonna go with the ones I recognise. I think

Dr Rad 15:30
they actually do know these people. I think they know that these people are crap. And so because I presume I mean, this is where knowing a little bit more about how elections actually work would be helpful, I guess. But I think it’s by mate. Somehow the patricians and I don’t really understand how they did this, but I guess they must have some control over organising the election. I guess they just made sure that all of the plebeians who were running when not great choices. Interesting.

Dr G 16:02
All right. So this would make sense. On some level, I think you’re right to assume that the patricians are largely in charge of organising elections. I think this is a delegated function. How that actually looks right now, in this very early period of the Republic, I don’t think we’re quite sure. But it would make sense for magistrates to organise and lead that and that’s certainly how it develops later on. Yes. Hmm. Interesting.

Dr Rad 16:34
The plebeians aren’t fooled by this entirely. I mean, obviously, they’re full enough, not for beginners. But when I say plebeians, I mean the Iciii. they reenter our story, Dr. G, excellent. Yes. Now the Icilii are a very prominent plebeian family who apparently were like the only people worthy of being named the plebeian side of things last fsra because they tend to pop up in our sauces when there is a particularly big moment or a huge development in terms of patrician plebeian relations taking place. And last episode definitely was what with you know, a plebeian becoming auaestor, and, you know, then all the conflict of the order stuff that ensued as a result of that. Yeah, they do become

Dr G 17:23
synonymous with probably in uprisings and sort of movements and shifts for power from the plebeian side.

Dr Rad 17:33
Yes, but the patricians very carefully had arranged it so that we apparently had three of the Icilii as tribunes of the plebs last episode.

Dr G 17:44
I mean, I don’t know if I believe that, but okay.

Dr Rad 17:49
Yeah, I mean, this is what we’re told that I mean, I like to believe it, because if we don’t believe it, then who’s trailing the senators or the consuls you know, trench coats and spying on them? Yeah, exactly. Which is apparently what happened. But anyway, so the Icilii are aware of what’s going on. But the patricians had made sure that they couldn’t be tribune to the plebs, again, in 408. And they’d also made sure that these particular men couldn’t run to be military Tribune. So they’ve made sure that these very popular plebeian leaders weren’t going to be on the ballot as its were

Dr G 18:30
interesting. Okay. So the capacity for the plebeians to be able to vote in people that they know are effective, that sort of sit within their social mileau is off the table. So not only is the the voting allocation confused, and there’s some weird names in there, but the names that they would want to vote for haven’t made it on?

Dr Rad 18:51
Well, yes, I mean, the Icilii, the Icilians, whatever you want to call them, they certainly strident and they’re not afraid to obviously stand up for puppy and rights, etc. So I think taking them out of the running certainly is a bit of a blow because obviously, they would have pushed for something quite radical, if we’re going with the storyline that we presented with, which is that faces a family trait this runs, you know, throughout all the members of their gens for generations, you know?

Dr G 19:22
Yeah, the Romans are very much into that kind of thing. Like what you pick up through your family line to find your character in many respects.

Dr Rad 19:30
Yes, so they clearly I know what’s going on, but there’s not much that they can do about it at this point in time. Let’s segue now Dr. G. To a rumour that arrives in room External Relations. The Volscians in the Aequians have got back together and apparently stronger than ever. I mean, I feel like I say that every time

Dr G 19:54
they’re back.

Dr Rad 19:56
Yeah, now it’s levy very helpfully tells me that maybe This is related to the fact that we did have the scandal of Carventum that we’ve talked about in the past where there seems to be trading hands between the Romans and their enemies at this point in time. We don’t know where it is, but it’s somewhere in here. And it’s going backwards and forwards like a hot potato. At the moment, the Volsican and I guess some Aequians forces have managed to get that back from Rome. So they are perhaps feeling you know, a bit smug, good about themselves strutting around, you know, or it could be that they are livid Dr. G, because they lost a place called Verrugo. Yes, either way, they’ve got fire under their asses.

Dr G 20:48
Yeah, so we’ve got this situation where we think these places are east of Rome, and sort of SE and sitting on the juncture between what is Roman territory? What is Aequians territory and what is coming up from the south the tip of Volscian territory. So this kind of contested area between the three groups is now hot potatoes. Hitting 408. Yes,

Dr Rad 21:14
definitely. Now, this is where we got another location coming into the story. The people from Look, I’m gonna say is Antiates? Antiastes?

Dr G 21:27
Are they some people from antium? Yeah,

Dr Rad 21:30
I think so. Yeah. The Antiates. The AnTIates.

Dr G 21:36
I’m just gonna say the people from Antium. I’m not gonna try that one.

Dr Rad 21:42
The anti 80s? Yeah. Anti 80s. Yeah, the anti 80s. So they send envoys to the Volscians and Aequians, which basically says this

in case you miss that very subtle explanation. They were calling them chickens. Because they were like how and embarrassment that? Okay, sure. You have Carventum back in your possession. But you did that by remaining behind the walls? Safety. Safety seriously? Where’s the bravery in that? And they allow the Romans to capture Verrugo? All right,

Dr G 22:31
so So you’re telling me that the Volscii and the Aequians are copying some derived version from the people of antium? Is this what’s going on? Okay. All right. antium is sort of directly south of Rome on the bay? Yes, yeah. As you’re heading around towards Campania. So it’s got this kind of section where, if we’re talking about antium, and I think we are Yeah, Rome has had this sort of conflict with the Volscii over time around control of Antium. And they had that moment where they put some settlers in there and stuff like that. But antium is a bit of a live wire, and really just sort of picks and chooses whose side it’s on, depending on what’s going on. And this means that the volsky is getting laughed at by people a little bit to the west, and a little bit to the south. But they’re also facing a situation where they’ve gotten back together with the Aequians. So, you know, there’s some mixed feelings here. They’re feeling bolstered up and strengthened by their renewed friendship with the Aequii, but they’re also feeling a little bit like antium is not respecting them the way that they should. Yes.

Dr Rad 23:41
And I think that they’re concerned. I mean, as we said, there is a bit of a trend happening in Rome at this point in time after being actually kind of a little quiet on the expansion front for actually a number of decades. And is and this would make sense, because we’ve talked about the fact that economically, it seems to be in a bit of a tough time in that sort of middle to late century that we’re in. But at this point in time, as we’re getting more towards the tip into a new century, it does seem like Rome is not just you know, finding people when they have to, or dealing with kind of like territory control, it does seem like they are more interested in actual expansion adding to their territory. And that’s kind of what we’re seeing over time here. And that’s, I think, what people in the air supposedly picking up on as well. So they’re saying, how low Are you not seeing the warning signs, guys? The Romans are clearly just going to keep sending out armies and then once they’ve managed to secure a triumph, they’ll just set up more colonies. And they’re like, did you know that the Romans have got all your stuff? Did you know that they’ve divided it all up? Did you know that they had taken Ferentinum and just given it away to to Hernici, did you know this? Did you know this and the Volscians?

Dr G 25:04
Are you paying attention? Wake up, she

Dr Rad 25:07
Aequians Like, you know what we did know this, because live, he told us.

Dr G 25:13
I read that book. You know what, when you put

Dr Rad 25:15
it like that, and you put it all together, I’m pretty angry, we’re all pretty angry. So the envoys start travelling around and enlisting young men, and people from antium, the Volscians, and the Aequians, all eventually meet up Antium and establish a camp there and then they just sit back and wait for the Romans to arrive.

Dr G 25:44
We just gotta kick out heels back when near the seaside, it’s gonna be nice. It’s gonna be nice.

Dr Rad 25:49
Yeah. Now, as you’ve highlighted, definitely antium It is a place of interest. It has been a while since we have explicitly mentioned it. If listeners want to check out some stuff on our team in the past, please go back to our episode on 459 BC. But it does kind of make sense that there would be potential conflict over this area, as you said, at this point in time, given that it seems like the Romans are making a concerted effort to once and for all, get the Volscians the Aequians out of this area and make sure that their hold on territory in this region is secure, because and it’s obviously it’s part of this narrative that Livy’s constructing because it doesn’t really make sense that the people from antium would potentially be that concerned about like, say, Verrugo, no, I think they’d probably not be concerned about Verrugo at all. Really? No, but it’s obviously being constructed so that we understand why I guess these people are coming together.

Dr G 26:55
Hmm, I think I also before we move on, I’ll offer a small correction on the location of antium. So it is where modern Anzio Yes, so we’re talking a little bit south of Rome, but it’s on the coast, not that far from modern Rome, if you’re driving a car, but like a reasonable March if you’re on foot. So these people historically considered to be a different linguistic group. They’re not Latin speakers necessarily, though, there’s bound to be some of them by now. But this whole sort of area that sort of forms or ring around Roman influence in every direction is starting to come under more pressure. That’s pretty clear. Yes.

Dr Rad 27:36
Yeah. And that’ll make sense because the Volscians in the Aequians are also not Latin peoples either. So yeah, well make sense. So anyway, the room is of course hear about all of this and they are abuzz with the news of what is happening the Senate decide that the fact that three peoples have came to this is clearly an emergency Do many people are against we must Yeah, we can deal with the Volscians and Aequians, but you throw Antium in there. I don’t think so.

Dr G 28:07
Especially after they’ve already gone out of their way to conquer antium at least what they

Dr Rad 28:12
definitely have. antium is definitely meant to be there.

Dr G 28:17
Yes, I’d say Rome sees antium as part of its broader sphere of influence and the idea that antium doesn’t agree is not okay,

Dr Rad 28:26
absolutely. So the Senate decide that because this is an emergency it’s done for a dictator.

Dr G 28:33
Well, that results that narrative quick for me,

Dr Rad 28:36
thank you. However, it doesn’t go as smoothly as the Romans might have been hoping because to the military tribune is decided they didn’t like this decision

Dr G 28:50
is that the two that got left out and weren’t chosen to be master

Dr Rad 28:54
has something to do with a pony. But So Julius and Cornelius okay, they decide to have a right old bitch session about the fact that they’ve just been elected into this premier magistracy and outs being seemingly taken away from them.

Dr G 29:13
I was gonna say it’s all lemons over there for those two years.

Dr Rad 29:17
Their unhappiness was so palpable, that the leading senators complained that the military tribunes were not being very respectful of senatorial control. Rude goodness, hi, nay, oh, dear. So much so that they even turn to the tribune of the plebs, and they say, Hey, would you mind weighing in here and using some of your powers?

Dr G 29:39
I mean, this is a big moment. I’m really sad that I don’t have any narrative material now for the Senate to rock up to the tribune of the plebs behind you. We don’t know who those guys are. So this clearly doesn’t work out very well for them. But what did the Senate think that the tribune of the plebs are going to do? I’m not sure that they necessarily care about this petty infighting amongst patrician le Well,

Dr Rad 30:00
I mean, they can in that they always like to see the patricians divided amongst themselves. In fact, they’re actually ecstatic that the senators are fighting.

Dr G 30:10
I mean, it’s good to see a bit of an internal collapse over there. But

Dr Rad 30:15
you’re right, you’re right in the sense that it doesn’t seem to really be within their remit to deal with

Dr G 30:19
this. I was gonna say so this is not really something that the tribune of the plebs would necessarily deal with. I mean, they’re allowed to sort of step in for plebeian matters. And obviously, they might contentiously make a situation where the patricians aren’t getting along worse by siding with one or the other. Exactly.

Dr Rad 30:39
I mean, there’s this like weird reference to the fact that they’d use their powers before against consuls had gotten out of hand. And I’m like, well, but in what context, like to do with uppity consuls who were causing issues for the plebeians like,

Dr G 30:57
yeah, I was gonna say, generally, it’s an interference on something like the levy, or, you know, turn a turn up when the consuls are giving speeches to be disruptive. I’m not sure how they how the Senate thinks the tribunes are going to support them. It’s

Dr Rad 31:12
one of those moments where like, I had a brass back through and I’m like, I don’t remember what this could possibly be referring to. Unless it’s like something that hasn’t been mentioned, because we have talked about the fact that the tribune of the plebs aren’t always actually on the side of the plebs, or at least, I should say, the dispossessed per year.

Dr G 31:35
Yes, they might be on the side of the very elite. plebeians, who in many respects are indistinguishable from the patricians. So

Dr Rad 31:44
Look, if anybody else has a clear recollection of what an earth LIvy is talking about here, please enlighten me because I couldn’t figure it out. Yeah. Offer a

Dr G 31:52
comment on our website. Tweet us or send us a message on Instagram. Anyway, so

Dr Rad 32:00
apart from getting some popcorn ready, and sitting back to enjoy the show that tribute is refused to have anything to do with this situation. Because they’re like, you know, what? Why should we help people that don’t even think we’re purpose citizens or even human beings as you made very clear last year snap? Yeah. They’re like, maybe, if all the magistracies were just open to anyone, you know, like a patrician could be attributed the class, which actually we have seen. So technically, that’s true. Oh, you know, a plebeian could be a consul and there wasn’t any distinction, then maybe the tribunes would be I don’t know, remotely interested in helping out the Senate here and making sure that the magistrates are doing what they’re supposed to do and behaving. But you know what? That’s fantasy land. Again, as you made very clear in 409, the patricians just do whatever they want. They don’t even care about the laws. And so you know, what the tribunes are going to do whatever the hell they want to, oh, boy.

Dr G 32:58
Okay, so we’ve got a little bit of like chaos rules in Rome, meanwhile, on the fringes of Roman territory of influence, all of their non friends slash neighbours, banding together with some sort of dastardly plan. And

Dr Rad 33:16
so because there’s apparently no help from the tribunes, although dubious, the Romans still very much caught up in the internal drama, even though they’re facing a huge external issue right here. And that’s what they should be focusing on, because Julius and Cornelius are still going on and on and on about how unjust it is that they couldn’t just run the campaign themselves. I mean, hello, it’s in the title, military tribute and with constant power, we were elected to the position. I’m in Hello, they could totally do it, put him up put him

Dr G 33:55
I think this may be indicates that even the patricians did not have confidence in the outcome of this botched election process, where they threw in a whole bunch of names. And they got a whole bunch of people coming out the other side, including and Ahala, who seems to be the only one who’s making it for himself as well, sir. But nobody was expecting that family to make a comeback. And then the other two are like we come from illustrious families. Why are we getting the gig? I can only imagine the dinner table conversation between Publius Cornelius Cossus military Tribune with consular power, and he’s possible cousin of some kind, Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus, who becomes the dictator and just being like, why why would you do this to me? was so close

Dr Rad 34:43
to have my name and could you? Why are you always doing this to me? I hate you. Any anyway, so speaking of Ahala this is where he enters our story. So you might have noticed that he’s been very silent on these matters, even though he is also a military tribune with consular power. If

Dr G 35:01
I assume he only talks by doing armpit movements

it’s just a little a little trumpet going on.

Dr Rad 35:11
Then he finally breaks his silence. And he says, Look, it’s obvious what I think about this situation. Any decent, good. Roman always puts the state ahead of himself. And he was just sitting there, with his head in his hands, hoping that his colleagues would come to their senses. concede to what the Senate has decreed is the best course of action. But now, it’s got to the point where the tribunes of the plebs, the plebs, Dr. G, are being asked to keep them in line, and it’s obviously gone far enough. Oh, Look, I

Dr G 35:51
feel like that’s a very safe and easy position for this man to take considering keys benefited from an upgrade. Shoo, shoo.

Dr Rad 36:01
So Ahala is like, Look, if it was up to me, I would just let them talk themselves out. I wake up to themselves and they’re in good time. But there’s a war on people. This is urgent, hence the dictator situation. And he’s like, I have to put Rome first. And if the Senate thinks that a dictator is the course to take, then a dictator should be chosen that very night,

Dr G 36:28
huh? The drama.

Dr Rad 36:30
Now, of course, everyone is very impressed by this because we know that the Romans cannot help but swoon for someone who allegedly is putting the state before any personal motivations.

Dr G 36:45
Women fainting in the streets, like

Dr Rad 36:48
Oh, in the streets, I think Nefertiti in the privacy of their homes. Now, this I might just add, really ties into a theme that has been detected in this particular section of Levy, which is that of modern Rottier. Yes, just a little side note anyway, so Ahala choosers Publius Cornelius as dictator and then Cornelius says, You know what? Ahala, You’re allright. And therefore, he is chosen to be master the horse because of course, he wants to make a point. The dictator is like you see, power comes to those who don’t actually seek it, which again, is another thing that the Romans cannot get enough of. Yeah,

Dr G 37:33
there’s nothing like the reluctant leader.

Dr Rad 37:35
Honestly, whenever anybody starts going to town on Gladiator. I’m like, You know what? I can’t help but love that movie. Because it is so right. That the hero is like, what me? You want me to do this job? I couldn’t possibly Yeah,

Dr G 37:53
it is embodying some really particular Roman values. Now

Dr Rad 37:58
as it turns out, this whole War and emergency situation was very anticlimactic. It was a very easy battle and it was very quickly over which

Dr G 38:06
where did they end up fighting antium I mean, this is how little little detail I have. Oh, okay, so they they head out to antium do the

Dr Rad 38:15
rally where the people from Antium and the Volscians in the Aequians were just like a now we wait.

Dr G 38:21
We’re just gonna sit here and see what happens next. Oh, no, the Romans turned up. Now

Dr Rad 38:26
the Rome is obviously because they’ve had such an easy battle. They had lots of energy for pillaging and rampaging through Volscian territory. Not only do they manage to steamroll the enemy, but they also apparently managed to capture a fortress at Lake Fucinus.

Dr G 38:44
This is outside the ken of my knowledge.

Dr Rad 38:47
I think this this occasion will come up a bit actually, I remember it because of Agrippina the younger and Claudius having a bit of a thing here later on. We’ll get to that you know 20 or 30 years it stands mentioning that only do they capture a fortress but they also apparently capture 3000 men as their prisoners of war. Yeah,

Dr G 39:07
okay impressive.

Dr Rad 39:09
Yeah. The remainder of the of the enemies just try and hide behind city walls where they can and just really leave that territory to the Romans I was like yeah, we’re not gonna we’re not gonna stop you

Dr G 39:20
All right, so a resounding victory for row

Dr Rad 39:22
it is now that geography is a little off again. So it doesn’t 100% seem to add up if you just like looking at naps, etc. Yeah,

Dr G 39:35
I was gonna say I’m like one why the Aequians all the way over in antium for instance,

Dr Rad 39:40
because the Antiates called them chicken.

Dr G 39:42
Well, it’s true. Anytime somebody calls me the chicken I immediately go over to where they are like OI.

Dr Rad 39:50
If Back to the Future has taught us nothing, it’s that calling someone a chicken is the worst thing that you can do it but it doesn’t entirely make sense that why, winning at Antium, the Romans would be like with capture that fort by the Fucine Lake.

Dr G 40:05
the Fucine Lake, the Lago Fucino it says that it’s going to be in Abruzzo? So, which is the region that is sort of next to and south of Lazio?

Right. Right. Right.

But the trouble with that is that still seems like it’s too far away from where we are. Right?

Dr Rad 40:28
Exactly. It does seem to be too far away. And given that Verrugo, and Carventum seem to be about Latium, the geography. Yeah, I would expect that like to be somewhere nearby as well. Yeah, exactly. It just doesn’t entirely add up in the account that we’ve got here. It may be because Livy is using a different source material, or at least he’s in transition with his source material, and therefore, is trying to pull various things together, or he’s been following one source for some period of time, and now he’s switched to another source. And therefore, the details are kind of contradicting themselves. And this is the kind of stuff that people cite when they say, That lady is not a great historian, because he’s not necessarily stopping and thinking in himself. Wait a second.

Dr G 41:20
Yeah, Look, I mean, if you’ve only got three books to read, they’re all good books. Well, I

Dr Rad 41:24
mean, for example, I think we have got to this part so far. So I’m going to mention it. There has been a point where, where Livy’s is, obviously labour, the fact that the patricians are wealthy because of the land that they control and own all that kind of stuff. But in another part of his narrative, he talks about the patricians being able to like rock up with waggons, full of bronze. So you know, just a few things here. We’re like, I don’t know if this is all applicable to this time period. I don’t know if this all makes sense. It we can’t be sure, obviously, of what’s going on. But yeah, they’re just like little things like that, where it seems to be, you know, maybe a bit of confusion in terms of the details that he’s got here. Well,

Dr G 42:05
and fair enough. I mean, he’s dealing with a period that’s well before his own time, the source material is bound to be quite limited. And I don’t know about the process of authorship either. Like, generally speaking, we understand that writers like Livy are probably not putting pen to paper themselves. They’re probably dictating to somebody who writes it down.

Dr Rad 42:29
A young woman with spectacles. Yes.

Dr G 42:33
And she’s doing shorthand the whole time. But to what extent they might go back and read over the things that they dictate. Yes, exactly, exactly. I don’t know, like, what are the processes like within that? So there’s lots that we don’t know, which might explain some of the sort of changes in details and the odd anomalies that come through that wouldn’t fly with a publisher nowadays? Yes,

Dr Rad 42:57
exactly. Exactly. We can’t help them to the same status, because what they’re doing is inherently more difficult than typing something up. That

Dr G 43:03
is true. So are there any more events in this year from Livy’s? Perspective? Okay. All right. Okay. I will, I will hold tight on my little clump of

Dr Rad 43:17
detail. So obviously, after Yeah, after all the raping and pillaging and all that kind of stuff. The Dictator heads back to Rome. I mean, he was hardly in charge. Dr. G. It was a blink of an eye really, after all this fuss, and he resigned his position as any good day dictator would do. Now, there was nothing said about what was going to happen the next year, as in, we’re going to have military tribunes. Oh, we’re going to have consuls it just goes straight to an election for military tributes, which is interesting, given all the concern, you know, that was, has been exhibited, historically, by the patricians over this particular type of election. Livy is wondering if maybe it’s because there has been a dictator I’m not really sure if that’s like, I don’t know, mess with people’s heads or something like that. But the patricians are certainly worried they like are all patricians on board here. Shouldn’t we be worried about this? The whole tribune of the plebs thing, and this year, that seems concerning. I feel like we’re not a unified force anymore guys.

Dr G 44:28
Rome is politically falling apart. So

Dr Rad 44:31
as in the election for the year that we’re currently in, they make sure that the worst plebeians are chosen to run alongside some worthwhile ones, to make the people hate the plebeian candidates as a whole, and then only chose the very, very best people to run from the Senate and patrician, who live he lumps in as being like one group basically. And therefore, spoilers. We’re going to have all patricians for the next year as well. out. But also people that had also served as military tributes before, which might say something about their family, you know, being on the rise. But it might also say something about this, you know, combative, aggressive expansion kind of place we seem to be in right now.

Dr G 45:19
Yeah, I think this tells us something about what is going on with Rome and her neighbours at this point in time that they’ve decided that they need more people who can command armies, although they did make an interesting choice this year to just subsume all of those into a dictator. Yes. Okay. So I don’t have any details to do with anything to do. Sad, sad news. I have Diodorus Siculus. Great. And he gives us the names of the military treatments with consular power. And they’re

Dr Rad 45:51
all correct. Well, girls, for you Deidara.

Dr G 45:56
Nice work Diodorus. Now, he places these events in around 405 to 404 BCE, which makes sense because he’s chronology is running at a slightly different pace to be Roman chronology for these things are a few years out, and that’s fine. But this means that we’re in the last phase of the Peloponnesian War. So to put the broader situation of Rome in its Mediterranean global context, the Peloponnesian War is in its final phase, it’s about to wrap up. And things are still holding up in Sicily as well, with the Carthaginians. So they’ve done some raising of some cities, they’ve jumped in there. And they’re, they’re still sort of milling about people in Sicily, which are mostly Greek settlers at this point in time, and like the Carthaginians, North Africa. So there’s a lot of that going on. And then part of what Carthage decides to do. And this might tell us something about their reach in this period of history. They decide to embark whilst they’re also having this conflict in Sicily to embark on another campaign against this Gideons which are nowhere near Sicily,

Dr Rad 47:08
I was going to say that seems random. It

Dr G 47:12
does on the face of it. But then I think about Carthage as being one of these Punic colony settlements. And so the Punic peoples in general, and the North Africans are a very seafaring group of people in this period of history. That’s how they do all of their trade. They’re very much interested in being all across the Mediterranean and as far as they understand it. So Scythia is going to be around Greece, keep going up, get to the top of that part of the Mediterranean, which is going to be near where we have modern Istanbul, for instance. And that kind of region to the to the north, and to the west of that is going to be ancient skills. Yes. So they embark on this sort of quest, like a war on two fronts , two Naval fronts? Why not, we’re Carthaginians, we could do it. And while, that’s going on. The Sicilian Greeks get together with the Libyans, another group of North Africans and the Iberians, who are the coastal people in the Spanish peninsula, and they decide to then also get involved in this Scythian conflict, to try and sail behind the Carthaginians and just create disturbances for them to ruin their supply chains and things like this. So while Rome is very near actually placed, fighting it out with their very close neighbours trying to figure out who they are and how they’re going to run themselves. And it always sounds like at this point in time, Rome is on the brink of a really big collapse where it doesn’t get it together in time, and will get overrun by everybody around them. The broader peoples in the Mediterranean are doing lots of big things. The Peloponnesian War is huge. What the Carthaginians are doing, if we believe Diodorus Siculus, with their multiple naval fronts is massive in terms of its undertaking. Yeah. So Rome is a really small player right now on this Mediterranean stage.

Dr Rad 49:16
It definitely is. And on that note, Dr. G, I think it might be time for the partial pick.

All right, Dr. J, tell us what is the partial picker that

Dr G 49:32
the partial pick, we are going to write Rome by its own standards spoilered I think it’s going to do great. And there are five categories of which they can gain a maximum of 10 Golden Eagles. So for a total of a possible 50 Gold eagles, which would mean Rome is at the height of all of its powers. We will see how they do this time round for the year 408 BC to

Dr Rad 49:59
tell me Dr G, What’s our first category?

Dr G 50:02
Well, first of all, we have military clout. How well have the Romans equip themselves in battle? I always

Dr Rad 50:09
say, like pretty well, according to this. I mean, it’s certainly not like the best battle because we don’t get any details. And it apparently was really easy for them. So I’m not sure I want to give them too much credit. But

Dr G 50:21
well, that might be a sign that they’re great. Well, yeah, no, that’s

Dr Rad 50:25
what I mean. Like, sure. I’ll give them something but like, I don’t want to go really any higher than like, I think a seven or an eight. Because it seems okay. Just seems too easy.

Dr G 50:35
They did also take what 3000 people captive, that’s a huge number and

Dr Rad 50:39
allegedly captured a fort, although, who the hell knows?

Dr G 50:42
We don’t know where it is. We’re not sure

Dr Rad 50:45
we know. We know where it is. But it just doesn’t seem to quite make sense. So I’m not sure if this narrative entirely adds up. All right,

Dr G 50:54
well, let’s say a seven is pretty impressive. Yes. We don’t get any of the dramatic details, which would make it even more impressive.

Dr Rad 51:03
I’ve gotta I’ve gotta hold it back for when we get those really impressive ones. Yeah.

Dr G 51:07
Yeah. Okay. Our second category is diplomacy. negotiation?

Dr Rad 51:12
Well, as we always say, I don’t know that you have much of that going on. When you’re at war,

Dr G 51:19
I don’t think they asked antium to stand down. We didn’t get a narrative where they sent any embassy out to be like, Guys, have you considered

Dr Rad 51:27
exactly not doing that? And internally, they’re also not doing great. So I think I’m gonna give it a zero. Actually.

Dr G 51:35
I agree. Expansion. Well, okay.

Dr Rad 51:38
I mean, we have got some capturing, you know, happening here, control team, you know,

Dr G 51:44
yes. But does that count as expansion? It wasn’t necessarily clear that they decided to reestablish some sort of colonial outpost in and

Dr Rad 51:56
this is the thing I feel like, I feel like the implication of the narrative is that they they’ve had a relationship with this place in the past. And I feel like this is really like, reestablishing that they are, in fact, in control of this area.

Dr G 52:12
Yeah. All right. Give them a one for that.

Dr Rad 52:15
Way. What about this apparent fought apparent for it?

Dr G 52:19
Where is it? You know,

Dr Rad 52:20
how big is that? Well, it’s a few saying, like, I don’t know how big it is.

Dr G 52:25
I mean, to feel like we should give them a two Yeah. To the fourth category is weird to us. Not really.

Dr Rad 52:33
I mean, you know, Ahala has a moment but it’s more speechifying kind of moment. Sometimes. speechifying can be weird. It is but I don’t feel like it’s that grand a speech, you know? No.

Dr G 52:45
And it doesn’t have any of those sort of classic. We’re tourists kind of elements to it, of like displaying wounds and things like this and and then we’ve definitely got the other two military Tribune’s who don’t quit themselves, well, it’s sort of like, they’re kind of just like whinging a little bit about their situation.

Dr Rad 53:06
Even Livy’s says the dictator kind of had a very easy time. He was like, Yeah, you know, he’s actually probably kind of lucky, he didn’t really face any major action just got to return home alive.

Dr G 53:16
You know, quietly. Nice, nice. All right. So

Dr Rad 53:20
I think also is a Zero. All right.

Dr G 53:24
And the final category is the citizen score. Look,

Dr Rad 53:27
it’s not the worst we’ve ever seen. But again, I don’t feel like it’s a great time to be a citizen because there is still this conflict of the orders stuff nagging away, they’re, you know, they’re not get able to get any pavilions into power, not that a citizen is a plebeian. But to be honest, we’ve actually kind of treated it that way.

Dr G 53:50
Well, and also the way that these elections are described by Livy as unfolding with a deliberate sort of confusion in order to create a particular outcome. I think that’s in a way that’s a dishonest approach to the citizen body.

Dr Rad 54:08
Yeah, well, that is an identity again, they’ve done it twice. Yeah,

Dr G 54:13
how dare they?

Dr Rad 54:14
Yeah. And so I mean, Look, the war is not the worst, it doesn’t sound like lots of Romans died, there is no fight against the levy,

Dr G 54:22
I think maybe a five then so like, on the balance, it’s not well, it’s it’s not terrible, but it’s not great. It’s kind of just like the halfway house with like, you know, what this person calls to being a citizen around?

Dr Rad 54:35
sure that that’s how we’ve given citizens scores.

Dr G 54:40
I’m allowed to change my mind.

Dr Rad 54:42
Sure. Look, I still feel like it’s got to be weighted on the downside because of the election thing. Like, I don’t you mean, like it’s not the worst, but I feel like it’s still not great. I would be more inclined to give a three How about we cut it in half and go for four years and that’s why I said three All right, Dr. G, that means that we have wound up with the Romans on a grand total of 13 out of 50 possible Golden Eagles

Dr G 55:12
13 Oh, well, that’s unlucky. But

Dr Rad 55:16
I think it’s because our rating system is quite frankly, all over the place.

Dr G 55:22
I Look, I mean, I, it depends on how I feel on the day. I don’t claim to be consistent and Rome is always changing. So

Dr Rad 55:31
it’s true. All right. Well, I Look forward to seeing how this whole you know election fraud. I get that it’s not that but I Look forward to seeing how this election strategy plays out and 407 BCE. Looking

Dr G 55:43
forward to it. I’ll catch you soon Hi.

Dr Rad 55:54
Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today we would like to say a special Salve to Arne, Sally, Desmond, Lisa and Peep, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much guys for your support. However, if you’ve just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review. And that goes for a book as well. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Episode 146 – Nobody Calls Me Chicken appeared first on The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies.

We’ve all been waiting for YEARS for this… more power to the plebs! Yes, you heard us correctly. For once, the patricians will not get exactly what they want.

Episode 145 – Power to the Plebs

It is 409 BCE and another exciting year in the conflict of the orders (allegedly). The plebeians were enraged when elections were held for consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power.

The plebeians decided to channel the advice of the First Wives Club. Don’t get mad, get everything! Denied the chance to elect their hero from the previous year, the plebeians rallied together and secured THREE plebeian quaestorship.

The quaestorship had technically been open to plebeians since 420 BCE. However, it took a decade for the plebeians to finally take the plunge. They were assisted by several tribunes of the plebs from the Icilii family. The Icilii often appear when something important happens for plebeian rights. Don’t you just love the grand narrative of Roman history?

Hungry for more, the plebeians decided to push for elections of military tribunes with consular elections. They were determined to elect a plebeian candidate in 408 BCE.

The patricians were already aghast at the prospect of plebeian quaestors, so they were hardly going to let that happen.

Once again, we find ourselves in a stalemate, with neither the patricians or the plebeians willing to back down.

Join us for another action-packed episode!

Need to catch up on 411 and 410 BCE? Check out Episode 144 – Where in the World is Carventum?

Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 13.80.1.

Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.54-55.

Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)

Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)

Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 

Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.

Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC, Pixabay and Fesliyan Studios.

Courtesy of Otter AI.

Dr Rad  00:12

Welcome to the partial historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad. And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the Hello, and welcome to another episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,.

Dr G  01:04

and I am your other host, Dr. G.  Hey,

Dr Rad  01:08

Hey, Dr. G. Welcome to a history of Rome that’s being told in excruciatingly painful detail,

Dr G  01:17

Just as the Romans would have liked it, I think.

Dr Rad  01:19

Exactly. I mean, we’re just fulfilling their wishes.

Dr G  01:22

Yeah. Their fame lives on as long as we talk about them.

Dr Rad  01:26

That is correct. So Dr G, last episode we were dealing with 410 BC. Today we’re going to be dealing with 409, it all makes chronological sense.

Dr G  01:40

Yeah, it looks so far. So good. I do not quibble at all with that logic. And 410 was an interesting year because we got introduced to a new location that we hadn’t heard of before. Called Carventum. Ah, yes, we still aren’t entirely sure where it is, the mystery remains. But we do think it might be part of a important strategic location that sort of forms the edge of Roman territory and Hernitian territory. And obviously, the Volscians and the Aequians want to get their little dirty paws all over it.

Dr Rad  02:19

Like they do everything.  Indeed,

Dr G  02:22

Indeed, that’s just the way those guys

Dr Rad  02:24

Oh, I know, don’t they knew that Rome is destined to be the superpower in this corner of the world.

Dr G  02:29

Not yet. Not yet.

02:33

So what we had last time was some classic conflict of the order stuff, I think, hmm, yeah. So we had our command commander called Valerius, who ended up being quite an unpopular, man.

02:51

Wow, how so? Is it even possible for Roman to become unpopular?

Dr Rad  02:56

Well, he was so harsh, I think after the conflict that had happened between the patricians like himself and the representative of the people, the tribune of the plebs, Menenius, that he kind of alienated them just just that much. They didn’t like him at all. And they really liked Menenius. Yes, well, that’s the kind of the way it goes at the moment, isn’t it? There’s a lot of backwards and forwards with this kind of class political struggle, which is really evidence as far as we’re concerned, I think the nature of our annalistic sources, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, whenever if ever he put us back into the scene, really trying to figure out what it meant to be a Roman in this very early period of history, where they don’t have a lot of good written accent evidence from the time in question. Exactly. So basically, we ended up with this situation where because Valerius had made himself so unpopular, and Menenius, the tribune of the plebs looked even better by comparison, that the patricians were incredibly nervous because they were sure that if they went with elections for military tributes with consular power, that Menenius would end up being the first plebeian to actually get elected to this office, which is technically open to anyone.

Dr G  04:26

Quelle horreur, we cannot possibly have a plebeian and charged around here. I

Dr Rad  04:33

 It simply cannot be tolerated, it will not be tolerated, and therefore we’re going to have concealer elections and concealer elections alone.  Well,

Dr G  04:41

Well, this all makes sense for what comes up in 409 BCE.

Dr Rad  04:46

It does I think it might be time to dive in

Dr G  05:06

It is 409 BC A exciting time in Romans history as is every year I have to say. And I have some excellent news for you, Dr. Rad. Oh my god. Am I about to fall off my chair? Have you rediscovered Dionysius of Halicarnassus  Oh sadly no. But the Fasti Capitolini is back, baby.

Dr Rad  05:30

Well, I’m glad you have something.

Dr G  05:33

Literally two names

Dr Rad  05:37

it’s better than a big fat nothing you bring into these episodes. Oh,

Dr G  05:42

yeah, like a historian is only as good as their material. You

Dr Rad  05:46

always do your research.

Dr G  05:48

I try but it’s hard to cobble together things for me at the moment.  Yeah, Yeah, to be honest, I think I have the easier deal, actually having something to read. Oh, Look, you bring the narrative and I give you a whole bunch of names. And I don’t know what happens to any of them. And that I think is fine. That is how we’re sharing the load right now. Well, there

Dr Rad  06:06

certainly are a whole bunch of names for the year for now. So why don’t you tell us who they are.

Dr G  06:12

I show we have two consuls, which is very much in keeping with that fear in 410. About anybody coming into position as military tribune with consular power. You can solve that by just having consuls. So we have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. We have had him in our mix before he was a military tribune with consular power in 414 BCE. And we also have Lucius Furius. Medullinus. I know ,a Furius back in the mix. One of our favourite genses right now. Now he was previously consul in 413. And he is in the middle of an upwards career trajectory. He doesn’t know it. But foreshadowing we

Dr Rad  07:01

do think

Dr G  07:05

we certainly do. Thanks a lot.

Dr Rad  07:09

It looks like yes, we

Dr G  07:11

are. And we’ve also got in addition to the consuls, we’ve got three possible tribune of the plebs. And to make things even more interesting on this front, every single name that I have attached to the role of tribune of the plebs is an Icilius. At least three named possibly different. Icilii in the tribune of the plebs mix.

Dr Rad  07:37

Okay, hilarious. But it does make sense because if we’re ramping up the conflict of the oddest narrative, this duel between the patricians and the plebeians, who better to have in office than an Icilii?

Dr G  07:53

it does present us with some problem so. So the tribune of the plebs position it’s been talked about in previous years, we’ve definitely talked about it where it seems like our sources are written sources are assuming that there’s already 10 of these characters. Yeah. We don’t have any good evidence to establish that the body of the tribune of the plebs was that large this early inroads history.

Dr Rad  08:21

How are you? He’s just had a very large dinner.

Dr G  08:25

What do you mean this 10 of him? Just one man, where are you very large coat. So we’ve got three possible Icilii as tribune of the plebs, no other group is named, but that would be a substantial faction within the tribune of the plebs, if they were a group of 10.

Dr Rad  08:43

It is. But as we’ve highlighted, this is a family that has a very strong association with the office of the tribune of the plebs, they often pop up just when things get dramatic,

Dr G  08:53

They do. And this gives you a sense that maybe something dramatic might be on the horizon this year as well. So I guess we’ll see motion. If you times your Icilius by three, do you get three amounts of drama three times, I don’t know, I guess we’ll find out together. The other group that I have names for quaestors.

Dr Rad  09:15

you might say this.

Dr G  09:18

And in lieu of the fact that I have very little actual evidence to provide you. What I’ve done is I’ve gone through the names of the quaestors to try and sort of place them in the broader scheme of like, what might be going on in Rome, with Roman families.

Dr Rad  09:34

I always love when you do this, because as you know, anything to do with Latin, including names is not my strong point.

Dr G  09:42

And Look, I don’t think it’s really mine either. But I do enjoy sort of building a picture for myself, like where do all these characters fit? Yeah, because the names often end up sounding a little bit samey because the names all have the same kind of endings. And then, after a while, you’re like I’m sure I’ve heard this name before. But is it a different guy? So for just for like the sake of like trying to keep everybody straight in my head, I enjoy sort of delving into the family side of things. Absolutely. So our first quaestor is Publius Aelius. Now I Aelius is known as a plebeian gens

Dr Rad  10:24

I’m not going to give too much away, I’m just gonna react calmly.

Dr G  10:28

Calmly, calmly. And they do have a recorded history from around about this period. So the fourth century BCE, so jumping head just a few years into the next century, and all the way through into the late imperial period. So this is a family that has real longevity in terms of their history and legacy across generations. Now, we might be getting this name now, because of the associations the family takes on in the late Republic, okay. Now, I don’t know, I like I’m just, I’m talking really slowly because I’m waiting for you to be like, I’ll jump in and tell you what’s going on.

Dr Rad  11:13

I’m not gonna jump in at any point. I’m just gonna let you talk through all of these names and shock you.

Dr G  11:19

Okay, okay. I’ll prepare myself for the shock. Okay. So we have some figures, like Quintus Aelius Tubero, and this is heading into the this late Republican period who’s the nephew of Scipio Aemilianus. And he’s infamous or famous depending on which side of politics you’re on  as an anti Gracchan figure. So somebody who’s like on the conservative side of politics, yeah, the Gracchi a very progressive and not everybody’s into that. And then there’s also a Quintus Aelius Tubero, same night name different guy. Yeah, who is a jurist and historian. And he wrote a 14 book Roman history from the foundation of Rome to the Punic Wars

Dr Rad  12:12

Suspicous.

Dr G  12:15

Well, this is really interesting, because we think that this Aelius Tubero is a common source for Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Aelius Tubero himself. Those books are no longer extant. Yeah, so anybody if you find a manuscript hiding in a monastery, you get in touch, yeah, get in touch. We’d be very excited historians everywhere would be very excited to find ideas to grow, but we think he’s utilised by both. So there’s a sense in which living and Dionysius are being influenced by an Aelius in their own writing. And so they probably have particular ideas about what Aelius’ are like in terms of their character and disposition. Okay, we move on our second quaestor is Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Definitely a patrician, a fabulous Fabii. Yeah. And likely related to Quintus Fabius Ambustus, Vibulanus who was the consul of 412,

Dr Rad  13:19

I was gonna say this, this name feels like more familiar territory.

Dr G  13:24

Yeah, yeah. And I think the expectation is that you would assume that the quaestor was would be patrician at this point. So it is quite interesting that we do get a mix of names that seem to suggest that both patricians and plebeians were in the quaestorship this early on.

Dr Rad  13:42

I’m not gonna give in I’m gonna say

Dr G  13:46

just keep putting a little hoping that your bite. Okay, all right. Now third quaestor is Publius Papius. Now, this gens, the Papius gens is an italic gens. And you might think to yourself, yeah, but surely all genses are Italic genses us we’re talking about the Romans here. But when we’re talking about italic peoples, we’re generally talking about people beyond the Romans. Because we tend we tend to classify the Romans as their own thing, even though they’re clearly part of the broader italic community. But the Papius gens has connections to the Samnites and Oscan speakers. So this is thinking about the sort of the hilly region to the east of Rome, but also South heading towards compania in the same sort of mountainous region. This is really the Oscan speaker kind of territory, they’ee plebeian, considered to be plebeian. And then we also see the Papii family go on to hold positions of tribune of the plebs. So there’s some spoilers for you, dear listeners, coming up in a podcast near you, but the Samnites I think we We’ve mentioned them maybe just an episode or so ago, well, they

Dr Rad  15:04

are going to become a regular feature this time. Now

Dr G  15:08

that they’ve sort of entered in to being mentioned, they’re going to continue to be mentioned, they are going to grow to be quite important to the way the Romans understand themselves. And

Dr Rad  15:20

they must be crushed up to G. Let me make that clear, they must be crushed,

Dr G  15:25

we may have a series of conflicts known as the Samnite wars coming your way soon, in the next century.

Dr Rad  15:32

It does make sense we have talked about the fact that they are possibly on the move a bit in this time period, that there’s a bit bit more of them coming into rooms or bet in this time period, which is I think, the kind of stuff that’s been coming up so far more complex. Yeah.

Dr G  15:50

And I think this gives us a sense that Rome and its influence is not just constrained to Latin speakers, this idea of the foundation of the city, which although we might think of it as being quite mythic, this idea of Rome as a place of asylum, it does seem to be the case that people are moving around, bringing their family history with them retaining their identity, and then also becoming integrated into a Roman social mindset and then gaining political currency within Rome. Yeah. So Rome itself has this history of cosmopolitanism that stems back really quite early into its history. Yes, it’s not. So it might help explain some of the things that happen with Roman citizenship later on. Absolutely. Our last quaestor Quintus Silius. Though the temptation to pronounce it as Silius is quite high,

Dr Rad  16:48

I was gonna say, I’m disappointed in you, you’re not the co host I thought you were.

Dr G  16:54

really missing all my opportunities. Quintus Silius, as we shall call him. Silius is a plebeian gens  Well, of course, he’s Silius.  This is how the patricians keep you down.

Dr Rad  17:12

What’s in a name? I’ll tell you what’s in it.

Dr G  17:15

It’s ridiculous. I tell you, he’s very silly. And I refuse to call him anything else. We’re not really sure about this guy. I put it to you that Livy seems to be our key source here. And

Dr Rad  17:29

I think I’ve been proving that fairly emphatically.

Dr G  17:35

I’m agreeing with your Dr Rad. That was me agreeing with you. I think I think maybe we’re misleading each other. So the trouble with this is that the Silius gens seems to only really come into prominence in the first century BCE, which is a good 300 400 years away from where we are now. And the question might be asked, What the hell is a Silius doing this early?

Dr Rad  18:11

I’ll tell you, he’s got late Republican ancestors, and I’m like, quick, put my family like way back as an ancestor somewhere,

Dr G  18:21

please. I mean, the phrase insert an ancestor does, it leads me down dark paths, but I’m not gonna mention what I’m visualising.

Dr Rad  18:30

Romans are always open for that Kind of foreplay.

Dr G  18:37

Well, that is all that I have on the names. I’ve got other things to talk about. But I think I should defer to you and what is actually going on in this year with any of these people. Can you help me now? I

Dr Rad  18:48

think I set this up really well. And I’m loving the family details here confirms a lot, I think. Excellent. All right. So here we are. We’ve got consuls being elected. Now Livy tells me that never before have the plebeians been so upset that they were not allowed to elect military tribunes, which implies that the patricians were correct to suspect that this was going to be the year when they were finally angry enough to go for a plebeian candidate over a patrician candidate. If that kind of thing were allowed. So the audience therefore, act out that they have to share their frustration in some way. And the way that they do this strategy is that for the first time, they elect plebeians to the quaestorship we been talking about the conflict of the orders for so long. Finally, finally, allegedly, and probably mistakenly we have plebeians in the quaestorship. Oh,

Dr G  20:03

wow. Okay. I mean, I was just so confused. I was like, What are these plebeians during it here? Everybody knows this is not for them.

Dr Rad  20:11

Yeah, you are correct. You are correct that there was one token patrician was elected alongside little bands. That must have been a comfortable election for him.

Dr G  20:23

Every time he goes into the room to sit down with the other quaestors, he’s like, Man, this is a travesty.

Dr Rad  20:29

Exactly, exactly. And Livy does note that it is simply crazy that these three Plebeians Silius, I will adhere to your superior Latin. Aelius and Pupius, Papius is whatever his name is.

Dr G  20:48

Papius, I’m going with

Dr Rad  20:49

it. It does sound wrong to say Pupius. A lot of fun. It was crazy that they were selected over the years from and I quote, distinguished families, which is code of course for patrician family. Yes.

Dr G  21:08

How cruel. Yeah, well, when you put in some names in here, I can see that.

Dr Rad  21:16

Now Livy, therefore had to investigate how it was that the three men finally came to be elected. And he has uncovered that it was indeed the Icilii who were behind the whole plan. They were the men who motivated the plebeians to vote in this insane fashion. Wow.

Dr G  21:39

Okay, so this might help explain. We don’t have a complete list of tribune of the plebs. But the idea that there are many Icilii swaying the situation. It’s like a political coup is

Dr Rad  21:52

going on. I know. Well, as as we know, a couple of years ago, we were talking about an Icilius, who got elected to be tribune of the plebs, and he was pushing what may have been a very ambitious agenda. But It got cut short, because there was an outbreak of illness, and therefore he couldn’t really do anything. He was stymied, Dr. G. Hmm. And now however, when everyone’s Well, bouncing around being angry with the patricians, now is the time for them to revisit their radical programme on equal rights for all.

Dr G  22:33

Look, I wish them all the best. I don’t think I don’t think the patricians are gonna enjoy this at all, or let them get away with it for very long,

Dr Rad  22:43

man not enjoying this. So the Icilius as we know, as a family, one of their character traits, hatred of patricians

Dr G  22:53

classic

Dr Rad  22:55

Passed down in mother’s milk. Now the reason the reason why there is confusion, as you say is that Livy’s Does explicitly say that there were three men from this particular gens who are elected so that’s why I guess we have the question marks and Broughton where it’s like is it Icilius, Icilius, Icilius?

Dr G  23:15

that’s what I’ve got one of them is potentially Lucius, question mark, Icilius. And the others are just question mark, Icilius.

Dr Rad  23:22

No one who is rich should Look into a mirror and say, Icilius, Icilius, Icilius three times because it could get dangerous in there.

Dr G  23:30

You will summon the quest for equal rights

Dr Rad  23:34

and a more equitable world. So the Icilii I, I presume all of them, apparently made a lot of big promises about what would happen if plebeians could be elected. And the plebeians being stupid, just ate all of this up, as they always do, according to Livy. Now, I questioned this account, because if the plebeians did just lap up whatever promises were sent their way by Tribunes of the plebs, and you know weren’t at all critical of it and all that kind of stuff, then surely we would have actually had this happen in quite some time ago because they would have elected people a to be quaestors, but be to be military tribunes with consular power, that would just make sense. So I think Livy’s Being a douchebag Dr. G.

Dr G  24:28

Well, I’m glad that that came from you this time. Because I yeah, this. This is tricky. I mean, why the quaestorship instead of the military tribune with consular power. Like I can see that ultimately, you would want people in all of the positions, those positions to be all available to people regardless of their family background if they can accrue the support for their election, which would include definitely rich plebeians. families who can spend the money to Canvas and put together a kind of election sort of promotion of themselves. But the quaestorship is at this stage very much we think attached to the Treasury. Yeah. And the idea that the politicians would let this out of their sort of hands, I think is a little bit questionable. Like are you going to let the plebeians get their hands on the money?

Dr Rad  25:30

Well, this is where I think you see Livy’s or in time period, perhaps coming in and I think you’ll see what I mean in a moment, certain, the way that the Icilii had persuaded the plebeians, I think to elect one is that they basically said, Look, there’s three of us serving as tribunes. And we’re not going to lift a god damn finger, unless you people finally vote plebeian into office now, I’m just going to highlight once more, that doesn’t sound like a bunch of crazy promises. To me. It sounds like a hostage situation.

Dr G  26:04

Sounds a bit like a threat.

Dr Rad  26:08

Yeah, that’s how they really, I think, got the plebeians over the line and got the plebeians to elect someone from their own class. I hate using that word to describe the bands. But

Dr G  26:21

I think this reflects a big deal of our issue with this whole period of Rome’s history, which is we don’t understand how the society is structured, necessarily, except that we know that some families are more prominent than other families. But the idea that there is a sort of a class unity doesn’t seem to be borne out by our evidence, like Livy and Dionysius have been trying to promote this idea of the class struggle, because clearly the way that class works in the late Republic, it’s pretty intense. Yeah. But the way that things are working here, we get the suggestion in most of our written sources that there is this struggle happening, which is failing to manifest as proper struggle, because the plebeians and I’m using my flesh rabbits, that plebeians fail consistently, to vote for their class. Exactly. So I think this leaves us with a situation where maybe class isn’t the best way to read any of this. And what Livy and Dionysus are doing is trying to shoehorn these things into a narrative. And I think then the further trouble if we’re looking even like more 1000s of years ahead, is that then we get a scholarship from the modern period that tries to read all of this within a Marxist lens as well, because Marxism is very much about class struggle. Sure. So that’s a whole nother layer of sort of class confusion, if you like, because people seem to be interested in their families getting ahead. Absolutely. It’s about it’s about their gens. And what we might be seeing is the real struggle that some genses, gentes in the Latin but I always say genses, because I like it. Some genses is having one accruing the sort of leverage that they need in terms of popular support in order to get elected in the first place.

Dr Rad  28:30

Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s been a while since we’ve talked about this, I think but there certainly has been times when we’ve been talking about consul, I think particularly so it really has been a while but I remember there being some names that we mentioned, for Consular positions. And there was definitely some question marks about whether they were actually patrician family names. Hmm, yes, yeah. And we talked about that. So go back and listen to it because I’m not gonna do it now. If obedience, I feeling pretty chuffed. They feel like they’ve really accomplished a lot, even though they haven’t elected everybody in to the premier position in the state at this point in time. No military Tribune with consular power has been pulled in officially, they still feel like they’ve won Dr. G. They’ve won the larger battle here.

Dr G  29:26

They’re chipping away at the seats of power. They’ll get there just your weight yet