In which John Heilemann talks with George Packer, staff writer for The Atlantic and National Book Award-winning author of The Unwinding, The Assassin's Gate, Our Man, and, Last Best Hope: America in Crisis and Renewal. Heilemann and Packer discuss Joe Biden's handling of the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan and how it spurred the first foreign policy crisis of his presidency; the twentieth anniversaries of 9-11 and the global war on terror, and how they changed America in ways large and small; and Packer's argument in Last Best Hope that, over the past forty years, the two dominant national narratives of the post-war era—the stories espoused by Democrats and Republicans to explain the country's identity and aspirations—have subdivided into four: Free America, Smart America, Real America, and Just America. Heilemann and Packer also discuss the January 6 insurrection at the Capitol, and whether it represents an even greater threat to the country than the horror at Ground Zero on September 11, 2001.

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