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  • We Grew Up On a Hutterite Colony, But We Had No Assurance of Salvation | Dan, Don & Derek

    Dan, Don and Derek Hofer grew up on a Hutterite Colony in Manitoba. In this interview, they discuss with Michael Penfold the history, culture and beliefs of the Hutterites and how, growing up, they had no assurance of salvation. Watch their fascinating stories and learn where the assurance of salvation comes from.

    Recorded in Manitoba, Canada, 24th Feb 2026

    Complete Series:

      We Were Raised Mennonite – Kyle, Tyler and Margaret
      We Grew Up in a Hutterite Colony – Dan, Don and Derek
      We Were Very Religious Hutterites – Silas, Adrian, Cody and Marissa
      Calvinist and Reformed – Hendrik, Kelsey, Leanne and Hendrik

      Further resources:

      Eternal security | Mervyn Hall

      Knowing for Sure You Are Saved | Michael Penfold
      The Assurance of Salvation | Michael Penfold
      The Sacrifice that Satisfies | Michael Penfold
      5 Poems About the Assurance of Salvation
      How Do You Know You Are Saved? | Michael Penfold
      The Remarkable Conversion of W.W. Fereday
      Are You Saved? | Michael Penfold

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      On that most holy morn - at Bethlehem
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      FULL VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:
      (00:00) There’s actually nothing to do with uh whosoever does good works or whosoever gets baptized, whosoever lives in the Hutterite colony. I rang up my brother Daniel. Bro, they have the truth. And he said to me, stay away from them. >> According to them, he is the mediator between God and man. >> You were joking.
      (00:20) >> He comes out of the the washroom and and he just rejoices. And I’m like, oh boy, he’s he’s one of those now. It says, “Whosoever believes or trusts or relies in Christ,” it says, “A light came to my life. Jesus died for me. It is finished.” >> That’s why Jesus died for. He died for me. >> Dan, Don, and Derek Hoffer, welcome to the Gospel Hall audio podcast.
      (00:48) >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you here. I know it’s a freezing cold day out. They opened the door earlier on and this cloud of steam came in from the minus 30 outside. >> Yeah. >> So tell us a little bit about yourself. Don, you’re you run your own business. Is that right? >> No, I’m electrician.
      (01:09) So I work for for somebody close to home. Okay. Mostly in Winnipeg. >> And you’ve lived here all your life >> in Manitoba. Yes. Yeah. >> Cool. >> Yeah. Now, for the benefit of viewers and listeners, you two guys are twin brothers, right? >> That is right. Yeah, correct. >> And you run your own business together? >> You run your own construction business.
      (01:27) That’s right. >> Okay. Doing what? >> Doing concrete. We do some uh carpentry mostly, but mostly concrete. >> And are you guys married with kids? >> Yes. Um I’m actually married to this is my father-in-law here. So, um some family dibs here. Um but yeah, I’m married to his daughter from England and um married a couple years a just uh last in 224 and um so I have two children, two twins, twin girls.
      (02:00) Um lovely little twin girls just recently a few months ago. >> And you have two boys, right? >> I’ve been married for close to 15 years now. U my wife is from Portage Prairie and I have two boys. >> Okay. >> Wonderful. Mhm. >> So, what we’re doing today is we’re doing four sessions, four episodes for the podcast.
      (02:22) We just had some Menanites in and you guys are all from a Hutterite background. >> Yes. Yes. As I was saying to the previous group, I was familiar with the Amish from being in Pennsylvania and seeing all that the buggies and everything, but the Hutterite thing was well until I met you. It was I was really >> had no idea. >> So, we need to kind of get a bit of a background into >> like with the Menanites, we went right back to the 16th century.
      (02:53) So, I guess it’s going to be a similar time frame for the right. So, what can you what can you tell us about how it started, where it started, and a little bit of the background to why it ended up in Manitoba? >> Right. Um, do I go on this one? >> Sure. >> Just a little bit of background. Um, it does go back to the 16th century, even earlier a little bit in the 1530s >> when they original Jacob >> Hutter >> out of um South Terroll or >> So, his surname Hutter, that’s where we get Hutter rights from.
      (03:24) >> That’s correct. Exactly. Um that’s where it originated initially and he was >> as far as their beliefs what they believed is they believed in so they were part of the inabaptist movement. >> So they would have been brought up in the Catholic church. >> Right. Exactly. >> Because they were the Menanites were telling us that Manosima was actually a Roman Catholic priest at one point.
      (03:45) >> Right. >> So what about Jacob Hutter? Um he was a very devout person and uh he was um exceedingly zealous and for his now he would have been from that that um religion that background and he but he received a lot of flack and when he he decided to be anabaptist one of those that believed in adult baptism not not um being baptized as a baby >> which um created a huge um like uh backlash for him and then he also So they also one of the main core beliefs that they had at least the early group initially to this day is something that
      (04:25) we a verse that they go off of which they all based based it on was was found in Acts that’s the main verse that they all use and it was in Acts 2 verse 44 to 45 where it says and they and all that believed were together and had all things common which means that community of goods and it says they sold their possessions and goods and parted them amongst to all men as every man had need.
      (04:56) So that was one of the main core beliefs that was the core belief of the hotter rice as far as and as well as um being sprinkled or baptized as a adult. >> Mhm. So did they again with the Menanites they were saying that originally they would have done when they broke away from the Roman Catholic Church they would have done baptism by immersion right >> whereas now it’s gone to pouring.
      (05:16) >> Mhm. >> So what would have happened? Would it have been similar? >> The rebaptizing would have been by immersion or >> Well that’s a great question. I I I it might have been in the early early part when they initially did it. >> However, of course that changed over time. >> Sure.
      (05:36) Clearly that was a big big change to it wasn’t too sprinkling now as we know it where I grew up in. >> Um but what happened is they were also pacifists. So they were they believed in conscientious objectors to anything of war or anything. They didn’t take up believe in taking up arms >> and so they would they had a few things that that of course inevitably brought perse persecution for them.
      (05:57) >> Mhm. they started going and then from from Terroll. Um >> so where is Terroll? >> So that would be in Austria. >> So it’s in present day Austria >> is in present day Austria but actually part of it is in present day Austria but but a lot of it was in is in present day northern Italy which is sutur south where they originated from a lot of farmland they all live together.
      (06:19) So if you went on holiday to that part of the world today, would you still find hutterites or are they >> Well, actually no, I you can’t find them there presently because I mean I I have been there and the language is still is still the same. A lot of language still similar cuz I was there and I was pretty surprised.
      (06:36) I’m fifth generation, sixth generation Canadian growing up speaking this dialect and going there and it’s still there and I’ve never been there before and it’s from that region as a spoken language not as much written so it’s from the area but they because of their strong beliefs in community living and and not taking up arms and Anabaptists being being persecuted by Catholics Catholic church >> they they had to flee and they fled from country to country they actually as a group they went to Czech Republic um >> Mhm. Chacha back then and then they went
      (07:10) they stayed there for a while settled there till they got persecuted again and then they moved north to Hungary and then from Hungary they moved they settled there for a period maybe 100 years and until they got persecution and they moved up north to Ukraine and that’s how we have a lot of Ukrainian foods >> that we eat and a lot of the same we picked up different foods along the way and then we moved to Russia as well and that was probably to late 187 1850 >> very similar to what the Menanite group were telling us they they they went from
      (07:39) uh Netherlands to Poland. They stayed in Poland for >> right >> two or 30 hundred years. Then they went to Russia and then finally so it’s sounds very very similar >> and that’s why there’s a lot of Russian influence or background but the Hutites remains distinct because they didn’t marry anyone outside of so they kept their their original um I I would say like their um >> I guess Austrian um at least >> culture >> culture.
      (08:08) Then they were kept the people as well like they were all they were all Austrians even though they’re in Ukraine and in in Russia they were all the remained Austrian people. >> So all along they’re growing bigger and bigger and bigger as but not by not by marrying other ones just by marrying and becoming bigger as families and then they moved in the 1870s60s they moved to North America >> and remember they got persecuted all all the way and then they move finally moved to the prairies where there’s lots of >> so they sailed across the ocean in the
      (08:34) late 1800s. >> Exactly. So 3 350 years they would have been in Europe. So it’s only been the last 150 years roughly where they’ve actually been in North America. >> Now the Menanite friends were telling me that they were given two tracks of land in Manitoba by the government to and that’s where the Menanites originally came and some of them went down to South America.
      (08:58) So, did the Huts rights get given land or did they have to buy it or? >> Um, >> nothing I’m I’m I’m aware of myself, but I remember they did go to it was North Dakota where the original uh colony was in the US. In the US, just across the border in from Manitoba South >> and then they settled there. Remember the first colony I think was Rosedale in in the States, >> Bonham Colony? >> Bonham Colony, right? South Dakota >> and then so South Dakota, North Dakota and then they immigrated to Canada as well to Manitoba and then Saskatchewan and Alberta and there’s different groups
      (09:29) within the Hutterites >> of different um there would be quite different some ways. >> Same with the Mananites. We were talking earlier with another group. They’ve got the old colony Menanites all the way through to kind of liberal manites. >> Yeah. >> So that would be similar >> similar.
      (09:48) So what happened? So they left have to leave Russia because the Russian government enforced Russian language, Russian culture into their their whole livelihood. So then they came to the US. But then World War I started in 1918 around there. So they got severely persecuted again for not bearing arms, not wearing uniform. >> Well, there’s a revolution in Russia.
      (10:07) >> No, in in in the US. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. So then the Canadian government still needed farmers. And then they started coming up to around Eli which is close to where I live. >> And that’s where some of the first Hutterites in Manitoba settled along the Cind River or close to it. >> Right. >> So the Hutites first came to where we are filming today in the early 20th century.
      (10:30) >> Yeah. >> Wow. So they’ve only been here 100 years. >> Right. >> And now there’s like 189 colonies or something in Manitoba. >> Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of them. There’s over 100 in Manitoba, I would say. And then and then there’s also some in Saskatchewan and and Alberta Hodites are in three different groups and I think that’s we need to mention that because we’re not all exactly the same >> like we would be called light would be our our background.
      (10:57) There’s a three different men that started these groups >> and so some going the lights which is our our Manitoba most of Manitoba and North Dakota South maybe some in Saskatchewan. >> Mhm. But then in Saskatchewan, Alberta would be more the provinces of of Canada there would be more like Darius Light which is another group and also Lite and so there’s they’re just three distinct groups but they all believe in the same core.
      (11:22) >> Okay. >> Same core >> community of goods having a common bank account >> exactly each other. >> So I want to just talk I’ll bring you in here. Um >> Dan I’m going to get these names in a minute. Yeah. >> Um, your accent when you guys when you guys came to the UK, everybody thought you were Irish. >> Okay. >> Because some of the words that you say, they sound like you come from County Cork in Ireland.
      (11:50) So, so where did this unique accent come from? Cuz you don’t sound Canadian, but you don’t sound British. So, what is it? >> That is right. Um, I remember like you said, most people who talk to us and I like asking them where do you think their accent is from? because they notice an accent and and they do usually say Ireland.
      (12:10) Um, and I’ve had people say to me, you’re specifically from Cork, like you said. Uh, now we got we we kept this accent because they were such a distinct group. So, they would pass it down from generation to generation and it is quite uh it’s German. It’s a German dialect, Austrian dialect. Uh, and we were speaking in our houses. So, we kept it quite distinct.
      (12:33) Uh, so it is it is German, Austrian, German. >> So would all hust be bilingual, German and English? >> That is correct. >> Absolutely. You speak German to each other or English? >> We would speak English and sometimes we would speak German like at the job sites for example, we would speak uh sometimes German, sometimes English.
      (12:50) >> Like that would be our terroll dialect. Yes. Not the actual German speaking. So, so if so if a German from Munich, let’s say in Germany, if he listened to you speak German, would he understand it? >> Hopefully, like I have German friends and I can speak to them somewhat, but that is distinct from our the dialect that >> So you have a particular like a German dialect which has it died out except in the Hutterites or it’s still being spoken in South Troll.
      (13:21) There is it is still being spoken in south troll. I was there last year with my wife and I spoke to them in in south in actually in troll which is in insbrook and they said I speak perfect trollian which is very fascinating because it would be here for that many generations and we’ve kept it because it was um kept within the confines of the community.
      (13:43) Um, but we do also learn German, like the high German language. Like in school, we learn from from 5 years old till we’re 15 years old. We have I I believe two hours a day at least of German school. >> So, we learn the language of the high German. So, because all the sermons that the Hutterites um preach from are actually all in high German because our dialect cannot be written down.
      (14:09) I I believe they’re working on that, but it hasn’t been a written language. So, we learn high German to understand the sermons that they uh wrote back then. >> So, when sorry when when we were talking to the Menanites, they were saying that they live in colonies. So, one lady said that in Bolivia they still have 89 colonies of Menanites to this day.
      (14:33) Um and and Mexico and so on. But their colonies were different to the Hutterite colonies as far as I can understand it because to them a colony is simply like a village of people. They own their own houses. They own their own cars. So they’re in a group. >> Yeah. But what makes the Harterites unique as far as I can understand from the other Anabaptist groups like Menanites, Amish, whatever is that you have this strong belief in not just living in a community but living in a community where every nobody owns anything. Exactly. That’s right. It
      (15:07) all belongs to this >> colony and >> so basically you don’t get wages, you don’t own any money, you just live in this group. >> Yeah. and they see that as a version of Acts chapter 2 and it’s it >> it also seems like it’s almost like a religious thing where that a commitment to that is part of their salvation.
      (15:28) Would that would that be right? Would that be fair to say? >> That is very correct, Michael. Yeah, they do believe that they have the best way. >> Okay. >> The closest way according to the Bible to get to heaven. So they basically think they have the inside track. >> This community thing is like the touchstone.
      (15:43) >> Yes, 100%. Definitely. Like for example, they believe it it’s like an arc. I’ve heard that analogy by by the ministers in the colony like Noah’s ark. So >> you’re within the ark. The ark is the the colony that and you have all things to come. You have a head start. >> Yeah. >> And everyone outside >> God’s going to judge, but we have we have the the we have the the best way because we’re following according to the scriptures to say.
      (16:10) And so the whole thing is built on this verse, these two verses there. So, so let’s just stop there a minute then. What would you say now? You’re no longer in the hutrite movement, although obviously you appreciate your background and your families and everything. H how should a person look at that verse? How did they get to the point where they think that’s part of their salvation? And and why why do you now think that verse is nothing to do with salvation? Well, um, if someone else wants to go, I can go.
      (16:45) Um, >> well, according to Acts 2, uh, 44 and 45, they miss, I believe, the main part of it all, which is it said, “And all who believed >> had all things come.” And now, if I understand the history there correctly, these people would have been persecuted. They would have been gotten saved, been born again and back in the Bible.
      (17:11) No, that’s too >> uh so they would have been um they would have believed in Christ and it being a Jewish um start >> they would have been persecuted from their homes and they would have been chased put out of the synagogues and so on. So they would have needed help from each other to even live. They didn’t have social programs like we have today.
      (17:31) So they would have they would help each other out as believers. all all these people that did this would have been true born again Christians who believed in Christ alone. So it says and all who believed and I I feel like that is looked looked over completely and they just focus on having all things common but not believing in Christ alone.
      (17:55) And also you’re saying because it was the the original days of the church, the persecution of the Jews, it was like a temporary situation where you where you have this need and so they decided we need to help each other out. But that’s not setting down a pattern that has to be followed nor is it part of anybody’s getting to heaven.
      (18:13) >> That is correct. It would have been only for a temporary if basically a solution to the problem temporarily >> but not not a not a way to get to heaven by no means. um it is just helping each other out as Christians but not a pattern to to get to heaven. It is Christ alone as we know from other verses and this would be more for functionality of the New Testament church helping each other out.
      (18:38) >> So let’s spend a few minutes on what it’s actually like. I I want to I want to talk to you um Don. What what is it actually like growing up in a hut? I mean, to me, it’s just like I just could not imagine growing up in a situation where you don’t own anything. You just do what you’re told. You know, if you’re told you need to work in the pig barn, you go and work in the pig barn.
      (19:01) And >> you go to church every day, I believe. And you’ve got to you you got to wear a certain type of clothing. And it’s just unfathomable in in in 21st century Canada that there’s 189 communities live like this. So, so what’s it actually like growing up like that? >> For me, I I really actually enjoyed it. I look back at my early childhood and I’m very thankful >> for my mom and dad.
      (19:27) I I have seven siblings. So, I come from a large family and yeah, like any other kid, we had lots of freedom. There was big wood lot around our colony and we spent hours and hours doing that. We could play sports, enjoyed hockey, still the best board out there. And >> yeah, and you went to school. You went to school. >> So like >> they have schools on the colony.
      (19:48) >> Yes. So they have the German school so we can learn German strictly for being used in the Had church setting and then you would learn English so you could function with the outside world. But so the English teachers would come from the the secular education system. So they would use the Manitoba curriculum.
      (20:07) So they they have a few Christian schools now, but it is solely based on the Manitoba curriculum. >> So the col colony is willing to hire >> someone who’s not a hutterite to teach. Yes. >> Anything else to work? >> Sometimes they’ve had to because now they’ve gone into more uh fabricating and doing different things, factory type settings.
      (20:29) So they bring them in reluctantly, but in order to survive, they’ve had to. So, as far as my home life, I’m very thankful for my mom and dad teaching me the Bible. I’ve never doubted it, never disputed in German. We did have English English Bibles at home. My dad wasn’t against it, but for most part, it’s in German and it’s encouraged in German and very much discouraged to read your English Bible.
      (20:52) >> So, family life would have been very traditional. >> You’d have had electricity and all that kind of stuff. >> When I came along, we already had that. Thank you. >> Apparently the day I came home from the hospital, they got running running water in. So that was 1976. So yeah, big change. >> And then so would you so you sit around the table for all your meals? Very traditional.
      (21:16) >> No. No. That’s that’s an unfortunate part when I look back at it now having my own family and sitting around a table with my beautiful family and being able to to read the scriptures together as a family to pray together as a family. But that had setting it again very communal minded.
      (21:32) So you would eat your meals in the common dining room. >> Oh wow. >> Segregation, men on one side, women on the other side, oldest to the youngest. >> So you have your coffee breaks and if you had company over, you would eat at home. >> Okay. >> But the family unit is very much not really in focus. It’s more the community, >> which is really strange.
      (21:52) Now that I have my own family, and I I don’t desire that. I’m glad we’re doing what we’re doing. >> Wow. So I always imagined that these groups were very family oriented. >> No. >> So you’re saying it’s more community oriented? >> Yes, very much. >> Wow. So what was it like sitting in a dining room with all these men? >> Yeah,
      (22:13) I guess. Yeah. Well, the thing is you don’t really visit. It was basically eat, get done what you needed to do and pack out so you can get back to work. >> Okay. >> So they didn’t really spend lots of time and that’s was my experience. Yeah. Not really socializing. So every So Derek, every day is the same. You get up at the same time, you go to work.
      (22:31) Do you have communal breakfast? >> You do. And that’s actually one of the biggest things. One of one of the biggest things if you ask a hutterite is you to be a good hutterite. You start with the breakfast. If you everyone everyone is encouraged to be at breakfast. >> Um it’s almost part of the religion, you know, to be at breakfast.
      (22:46) I know that growing up I can I can I can authenticate it. It’s very real. My dad was a minister. So he was one of the main guys um that would be over the colony >> in the religious way and he’d be teaching the from the sermons >> and that’s the highest one of the highest position. It is the highest position in the colony.
      (23:03) There’s two usually. So I grew up in a home where my dad was a was one of those. He was a minister and he was a great dad really good at what he what he did and he was very like he raised us with god-fearing >> um good life like a good good hut right to live by the rules. >> Mh. And so we would go we would go to in the morning to start go to breakfast at 7:15 or something.
      (23:26) It could be different for different colonies but for us it was quite >> like they ring a bell. >> Yeah. The whole bell of the whole colony rings and in each home I think it might go off as well and say it’s time to go. Everyone the whole colony goes together and eats in one common place. The the children from age age 5 to 15 are in the in one area segregated girls and boys.
      (23:45) And typically this will be like 200 people or >> uh it could be 150 around 150. >> Yeah. So anywhere 80 to 150 is a general size of a colony. >> And once you finish breakfast you go to work or school or you go to school if if your children you can go to either either German school. If you’re between the age of 5 to 15 you can go to German school for for a couple for maybe hour and then you start English school for the day. Okay.
      (24:07) >> And then but at noon and then if you’re of course if you’re adult you go to your work whatever your designated thing which me was pig barn. I had to work in a pig barn. Yeah, >> that was going to be my future. Um, and I didn’t I didn’t enjoy it particularly at all. And so for me, um, when I was 15 to 17, that was you’re considered adult at 15.
      (24:25) >> So you leave school at 15. >> You leave school at 15. Not not every colony does, but like for a lot of us, at least when I was there, um, I left from I had to get your own designated um, job. So it could be >> So the elders of the colony decide what job you’re going to do. So what were you doing? Were you in the pig bomb? >> I was going to be in the dairy barn.
      (24:47) Okay. >> So, I was milking cows >> but a little bit better than a pig farm. >> That is correct. I think so. Agree. I would say don’t you I really enjoyed that. I was cutting the alalfa. Uh I was helping out with cow milking cows. Holene we had about 25 head of holstein and maybe 150 head of beef cows. Okay. >> So, we also had a pasture with all the beef cows.
      (25:09) So, we that was more going to be my job. >> And what about you? >> Same thing. Oh, >> I I was uh turned 16. I was uh done school. It was my birthday and I got a call. I started off in a pig barn. Started right on the bottom. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And then so the neat thing is you do so they move you around every year. >> So you do get an opportunity.
      (25:28) >> So then the next year I think it was a chicken barn, then dairy. So you do get to learn a lot of things and a lot of different uh skill sets working with different animals. Then I did carpentry. My dad was electrician, plumber. So you do learn a lot of need needful life skills that you’re going to use. >> Are they raising these pigs and chickens and cows just to consume themselves or do they sell them to other people or what what way does it work? >> Both. Okay.
      (25:58) >> Yeah. So they sell them to make money obviously but then Yeah, we do have a large avatar and we kill our own chickens and process them for our own. Yeah. >> So you have breakfast, then you work, then you the bell goes again, lunch. around 11:20 11:30 >> then the bell goes again supper >> right but supper before uh before supper >> you the bell rings and everyone goes to church >> so you go to church every single day that is the core one of the core things of the of the colony of course because it’s part of the religion of getting to
      (26:26) heaven by works >> um so you have to be a good hunter you have to be the breakfast at the to get all the comm community meals and everything and also go to church and and then that’s that’s before the supper before the sort of evening meal >> Mhm. M >> they would have everyone would go to church and >> then you have your meal and then the evening is free.
      (26:44) >> Right. Exactly. >> Yeah. So then we were I was talking to the Menanites earlier on about church. So they were saying it was a plain building, wooden benches. Uh they would sing some hymns and they were describing this kind of funny way of singing that they had one word could last 10 seconds or something >> like a chanting kind of thing.
      (27:05) And the preacher had a particular kind of intonation when they preached. >> Yeah. Um and so so in the Hutterite church is it similar? There’s no stained glass windows or you know it’s it’s like a plainish building with the forms and then so the this preacher guy there there’s one per colony or >> there could be two because assistant one usually there’s one one one senior one and one >> so he’s called a preacher or minister.
      (27:31) >> We do call it a preacher. He’s usually minister whatever word I guess you want to use. So yeah, it’d usually be an older one and then a younger one. >> So what does he what does he preach then in his sermon every day? >> Well, so going back to tradition. So they have these sermon books that were written back in the days of Diana Baptist by the forefathers and then for years they meticulously handwritten kept copying them down by hand but now I think they do it by computer.
      (27:58) So those are in German like Daniel pointed out. So sadly they actually don’t use >> Oh German. Yeah. All of them. So sadly and tragically, they don’t use God’s word in their church service. They re they read, they’re not preachers, they’re readers of these sermon books, >> right? Oh, >> that they have a schedule for >> Oh, so there’s like a liturgy where it’s all decided beforehand.
      (28:19) >> So they pull it out of their shelf. One guy called it a ready cut bread and then he goes up and in a very monotone singongy voice he reads it. And some of them are quite good in the German so they’ll add their own interpretation to it. >> So nobody opens the Bible in the church. There’s no Bible there. >> Wow.
      (28:35) >> And they start singing. So the the preacher will do one line and the congregation will sing once. And that’s >> Oh, I see. >> Very much enforced for by some some of the groups. Very much enforced. And the reason they did that because apparently that we were told back in the days of the Anabaptists, they didn’t have enough money for him books.
      (28:53) >> So they would have one and they would do it sometimes in dark places to avoid being arrested. >> So because it’s salvation by works and tradition has to be kept on even now when we have him. books and they’re very good singers. You love singing >> and just an interruption after every line.
      (29:10) You have to stop and get the next line. Even though you memorize these hymns by heart. >> Yeah. >> And just stall, read, go. >> So that’s half an hour every day. It should be every day. Sometimes it isn’t, but for most part it’s every day. >> And then evening. And then they would have a the preacher would then pray and it would be a recited prayer.
      (29:28) And they would pray for last 5 10 minutes. I’m not sure how long it was, but they would recite the prayer every day, all the time. The same prayer we’ve heard all of our lives. So, it’ll be recited prayer and he memorized this whole prayer. >> And how long’s the prayer? >> It would be five minutes. >> So, everybody kneels on the floor, you pray as well or just he does.
      (29:47) Same old same old prayer. >> So, do you say the Lord’s prayer as well or No, >> no. >> No. No. >> Wow. >> Not. So again to try and distinguish these groups in in Hutterite colonies do they have cars, electricity, computers, TVs, mobile phones, what what kind of what kind of culture is it? >> Right.
      (30:12) So so there that’s where the big distinction between the Amish or even some of those Manite colonies. The Amish would have more like they wouldn’t have the power or the electricity and they would have horse and boggy. a lot of them they believe in this sort of way. Whereas the hunter have a lot more of a like they have the modern technology.
      (30:28) They would have modern vehicles like often the very newest ones, beautiful vehicles and they actually love they love having nice new vehicles. >> Um and then they would have like very nice houses, beautiful houses and wellb built >> and like very modern often. And so they would be able >> even though they don’t own these houses.
      (30:46) >> Even though they don’t own them, but they live in them and it’s owned by the one one colony bank. So nobody like me person doesn’t I don’t own anything. I don’t I don’t own not I don’t own a vehicle. I don’t own a a house. It it’s given to me by the colony. But it’s almost like a temporary. This is mine.
      (31:01) It’s but it’s >> if if if I have if I leave the colony, >> it stays there and you don’t get anything. Mhm. >> And >> that’s very important to understand when you become a Christian or trust in Christ which we’re going to get into. >> Mhm. >> That is a very big thing you have to leave behind.
      (31:18) Leave everything behind >> with nothing. You leave with nothing. >> So as far as the um the family culture, it’s mainly about communities. Um so is is there a whole team of ladies in the background making these breakfast, lunch, and suppers? Oh yeah, I mean that must be that’s like that’s like running a whole event every day, right? How does that work? >> So yeah, so they have one head cook.
      (31:45) Some of the colleagues now have two. So they had so they get a break, but then every week there’s two different ladies from the colony. I think it’s age 17 to 45 that you have your slotted time during the year. It goes in a cycle that you have to prepare the meals. Yeah, they love their food and it’s really good.
      (32:02) Maybe not always the healthiest, but it’s it’s uh yeah, quite they love their their meats and yeah, processing all their meat and preparing it. Beautiful big gardens and uh there lots of fruit and vegetable. Yeah, they do it well. >> So, what we want to move on to now is is just talking about how you came to be where you are now.
      (32:23) So, you’re no longer in the Hutterite colony. >> There’s all different reasons why people may leave. Some may go back. So um as growing up as a hutterite boy, let’s start with you. >> Sure, >> Don. Growing up as a hutterite boy on as far as spiritual things are concerned, God, the Bible, whatever. >> What’s your kind of in your head you’re thinking I’m going to need to do this, this, this, this, and this, and then this is heaven at the end kind of thing.
      (32:52) So what what does that line look like in a hutterite colony? So for like we touched on some of it, it would be to basically live communally, go obey all the rules that you’re told, be a faithful member of the colony, work hard. They they do work hard and but they really emphasize that. And then basically once you hit the age of about 21 to 25, you’re expected to get baptized or sprinkled as they do it and become a member of the Hutterite church because only then can you proceed with your life really cuz you have if you
      (33:28) want to get married if you have a girlfriend at that point you have to jump through the hoops >> in order to do that. And then after you’re given more responsibility, like maybe you’ll get your own job. You’ll be the manager of the turkey barn for example or farm boss or whatever, >> whatever it is.
      (33:45) And then yeah, you work hard. You try to do the best you can and then if you die having kept the covenant with the hutter church, you can hope and never know for sure that you’ve made it. >> Wow. Okay. So it’s kind of baptism. So, do you go do you get like catechized in the run-up to your baptism? So, you have to agree to the >> to the beliefs of the church >> and you get baptized and then you join the church >> and then you basically try your best to live a good life after that.
      (34:18) >> That’s right. >> Um, so then do you do they have communion or confession or what other things do they do? >> They do have confession. So when it comes to going back to where when we were sprinkled or the catechism for so for six weeks you’d go to a member of the the elders and on Sunday afternoon you group and they would one by one admonish you so my personal experience one of my one of the elders would read a book in German no explanation just very humrum dry no joy to the group oh to a group >> to a group cuz you’re moving around in a
      (34:56) group house to house to the elders Okay. >> Another another one of them would read an Old Testament story to us which had nothing to do with salvation whatsoever. Did admonish you to live good lives, to be good, try your best, and God will in his riches, mercy, and grace maybe grant you eternal life.
      (35:16) Sometimes the word new birth was mentioned, but they really don’t understand it sadly because they put the event of baptism as being the new birth, which I found out later that it wasn’t. So then yeah. So then you have this long memorized poem which is actually really good. It is a confession of faith.
      (35:34) It’s it’s accurate according to the Bible like why are you call yourself a Christian? I believed in Jesus. >> So you have all that head knowledge like growing up >> because you do believe the Bible and you do believe the narrative and Jesus is a historical person >> and all those things. You you don’t dispute them >> and I never did. >> But it was never never personal.
      (35:52) So the Saturday before my baptism, I got to sit down with my uncle in a dark room and I had to confess his ter. It was a very stressful time. All the bad things I did and there was lots of them. >> Why to your uncle? >> He was the preacher. He was the ordained preacher. So according to them, >> he is the mediator between God and man, which the Bible Yeah, >> you’re joking.
      (36:14) >> No, I’m not. And the Bible is very clear that there’s only one God and one mediator between God and man, which is Christ Jesus. Mhm. >> But I’m I’m thinking of the history. So So the hutes came out of the Catholic church, the Roman Catholic Church, where you have confession to a priest. >> Yes. >> And the intercession of saints and all that.
      (36:33) >> So you’re even though you’ve come out of it, you have a very similar kind of thing going on, right? >> It is. Yeah. Yeah. >> So you went to your uncle who was the preacher or do you call him priests or preachers? >> Preacher. He functions as a priest. So he functions as a priest and he somehow is able to so every single sin has to be confessed to this man or you can confess it straight to God as well.
      (37:00) >> They don’t like you saying that cuz then they lose their power. >> So they confuse some of the verses in the Bible which clearly talk about church discipline >> to salvation >> because they they’re not saved themselves. So then yes. So, so they give you a grace period like if you and I guess if you don’t do it deliberately is what they tell you that you forgot certain sins you don’t want him to know then God does forgive you but you have more you can go if you wanted to go let’s say Sunday morning again and it
      (37:26) does happen you can quickly run home before you get sprinkled or baptized as they call it >> into the hutter church then you still have an opportunity but then they’ll say if you would actually die at that point you would be guaranteed of heaven >> because your sins are gone because dear ordained preacher, minister, priest, whatever you want to call him, has taken him for God for you.
      (37:48) >> So you have this confession before you get baptized. But then is there other confessions later like once a year or something? >> So they have once a year to do communion. So you have a twoe period before before Easter, same time as anybody else does communion who’s in the Christian world, >> that you can go home if you have grievous sin to make it right.
      (38:08) So if you need church discipline, it will be applied just so that you can be clean again to take communion. >> So So all Hutzerites can only take communion once a year. >> That’s right. >> And it’s around Easter. >> Yeah. And they follow again their sermon outline and no sermon books come up to the Easter time and that’s what they’ll use >> and then they all take communion and they kind of feel that’s them clear for another year.
      (38:32) Is it? >> Yes. Okay. >> It’s very almost Jewish almost >> during day of atonement. But we are very Catholic still some of it. >> Mhm. >> So then you got you you made the confession to your uncle who was the preacher. You then got baptized. You then got received into the church >> and as far as you knew at that point you’re good to go for heaven or certainly >> I was told that but I did not feel that Michael.
      (38:57) >> I was searching at that point. I had watched the lives of some of my friends being changed by the gospel. >> Okay. and they had actually gotten saved truly born again >> before any of their experience with the Hutterite church. >> Oh, I see. >> And their life had changed. Whereas some of the people, some of my cousins and other ones who had gone through the Hutterite church, there was no difference in their life.
      (39:18) Maybe they turn over a new leaf. >> Mhm. >> And they were remorseful and then they were good maybe for a week, a month after, but then they would fall back into all the hideous things we did before. >> Alcohol is a huge problem. I had a huge problem with it. And just the stuff you consume from >> alcohol on the colony >> big time. Yeah.
      (39:36) It’s the it’s the acceptable. >> Is that a known thing or is it >> Absolutely. It’s encouraged. It’s given it’s given to you. They make they’re great wine makers. They have Yeah. >> You actually get your beer. >> You actually get it as like every month or so they give you an allowance really of of alcohol. >> Yeah. >> It’s quite fascinating.
      (39:55) >> Is drunkenness frowned on? >> Sort of. But it’s so rampant. It’s Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It’s a real real problem. And it’s sad because I think some of them they’re just enslaved by it because they’re trying to please God and they ultimately can’t >> cuz the natural man can’t please God. >> Sure. >> So then they just use it as an excuse to maybe get away from >> the wrath of God or the dis disapproval.
      (40:19) >> So what age were you when you got baptized? >> So I was 23 years old. >> Okay. And what age were you when you got saved? uh shortly thereafter. >> Oh, really? >> Yes. >> Well, maybe we should just do that now before we talk to Dan and Derek. Sure. So, so >> what was what was going on between your baptism and when you got saved? >> Okay, let me back up.
      (40:44) So, when I turned So, talking about alcohol, cuz that’s the big vice. So, when I was turned 14, I was given my first bottle of beer on the colony and it’s Yeah. So, but once you’re 15, you’re considered an adult. So from 15 to about 22, I partied like I the restraints of God was gone. I was into the world up to my neck with some drugs.
      (41:08) I didn’t like drugs just a little bit. But as far as the world’s music, like they say, they’re not in the world. Geographically, they’ve removed themselves, but the world is very much alive in us. So >> to do this, did you have to go off the colony? >> No, no, it’s all there. >> Oh, really? >> We watch went to if we wanted to watch movies, which we did.
      (41:24) We knew all the latest releases. We’d go to the neighbors and watch them or we had a TV hidden away. Black and white TV, lots of snow in it, static. So that but from age 15 to 22 was a very dark period in my life. I part like the the Bible talks about the passing pleasures of sin. >> So for a while it was >> kind of enjoyable.
      (41:46) You did all sorts of crazy things. But after a while, the hangovers, waking up, not knowing what you did the day before, puking your guts out. But it was all part of the group I was with. And so we had lots of freedom. We had lots of friends, hundreds of hundreds, young people doing the same thing. >> And the and the elders of the colony just turn a blind eye.
      (42:05) >> They do. Okay. >> They know what’s going on cuz they did it themselves. So that period of time, Mike, is what they call your sewing your wild oats. >> So it’s kind of acceptable. You know what? They’ll smarten up. And then once maybe they’ll they’ll get older, they want to get married, then we’ll then we’ll deal with them.
      (42:22) And that’s basically what happened to me. Then like I stated earlier, but then I saw real change in some of these of my cousins who were but then others on the colony were saying, well, they have a different belief, a false belief cuz they were saying they had assurance of salvation. Their sins had truly been forgiven.
      (42:40) And that’s one thing they did. They completely abstained from alcohol, which was a real eye opener to me. And he would sing these hymns. Hutterates loved your country music. So there a lot of guitar playing and all this harmonica. So they would just exclusively deliberately just play Christian hymns. >> So these are these are fellow hutterites that you grew up with. Yes. Young men.
      (43:00) >> Yes. >> And they heard the gospel somehow and they were born again. >> Yeah. >> And they leave the colony or they stay? >> They stay for a period of time. >> They stay for a while and then then likely leave. >> Yes. Because they really have no choice. >> Okay. But you watch these guys and you’re thinking, >> “So instead of country music, they now want hymns.
      (43:20) Instead of getting drunk, they’re sober.” And this hasn’t happened to them because they’re faithful hutterites. It’s happened to them because they’ve heard about being born again and all this. So you could see you were beginning to think >> maybe I’m just in a religion that’s not actually generating spiritual life and these people have got something I haven’t got.
      (43:40) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So then I would tune in on the radio because at that point I was driving tractor and I was searching because I was sick of my life. >> Okay. >> Um and I heard different evangelicals on the radio. Okay. >> And they would tell the Bible stories. But then they would talk about being saved that we’re all sinners.
      (43:56) That we cannot please God. All we can bring to God is our sin. >> We have nothing to offer God. That by trying to >> to be good or trying to go to church and doing all the good things we call him, we’re actually trying to bribe him. Mhm. >> And that’s not possible because God is too righteous. He’s too just.
      (44:14) He has to punish him. And that really resonated with me because you do have the fear of God. You do want to please God, but you’re never really given the ultimate solution. >> Mhm. >> Just hopefully. And you know, then it’s tightening your the screws on you like >> this is your cross. You got to bear it. >> So it’s terrible. It’s depressing.
      (44:33) It’s it leads to a very dark dark existence. So then after I went through what the Hutterite system had to offer and I was sincere and there’s a lot of sincere people on the Hutter colonies who have done this step but yet they don’t have peace with God. >> So one of my cousins came by and I remember actually I was kneeling down one of the preachers had his hands open and put poured a little bit of water in the ordained minister could feel the water.
      (44:58) I sat up and I didn’t feel different and I’m not saying this was your baptism. >> That was my baptism on the Hutter colony. They poured water into your hands >> on not my hands but the guy above me and >> pou it onto your head. >> Yeah. >> Just a little bit enough that you feel it. That’s their method what they call baptism but that’s not baptism according to the Bible.
      (45:14) >> So any I remember sitting up and I said to the Lord this is not authentic. Like I still didn’t have peace. And at that point I was like Lord show me >> that I was like you know what I don’t really care what happens after this who my friends are. I need to find the truth. M >> and then my cousin came home and right after the baptism and gave me a big hug and said, “How do you feel?” And I lied to her cuz I didn’t know what to say to her. I was mixed up. I was confused.
      (45:37) I said, “I feels good.” But then thankfully, God in his grace kept revealing Christ to me and that it was a gift >> through the Bible through the radio >> and talking to friends tracks. I was given tracks to read, >> good Christian tracks that I can never be saved >> going on to where I was. But it that God, it’s not a prize.
      (45:59) It’s not something we can work for or have to. Christ said, “It is finished.” And what beautiful words those were, >> Mike, when you realize you can’t do anything. >> And I two months later, around that point, I got saved. And >> so just describe that moment. So two months later, you’ve been working through seeing the difference between works and faith.
      (46:19) And >> yeah. >> So on the moment you got saved, what what did you see? What did you learn? What did you What? Actually, >> I can’t really say that it was a moment in time. Salvation is a moment in time. I know that it’s not a process, >> but because of the confusion that was in my head from being indoctrinated all those years, >> I cannot pinpoint.
      (46:41) >> But I do know that I had an inward joy. I had an inward peace. I wanted to read the Bible. >> I I had started reading it in English. They don’t want you to do that. Mainly said they can control you. cuz they find out all of us who were saved were read in the English Bible >> cuz again they’ve indoctrinated you to some of the meanings that are in the German Bible like justification, sanctification, redemption, all these beautiful terms we love as believers.
      (47:09) So they’ve just they’re just completely confused by it. >> Mhm. >> So it was just >> No, I can understand that because what you’re saying is >> I was so in the dark. Yeah. I didn’t even know what it meant to be saying, >> but I’m reading the Bible and I’m getting light. And then at some point in that process, >> I think >> it was faith where you realize it’s finished.
      (47:31) The work is done, but but you’re at the time you’re not thinking I need to write the date down. >> I know. Yeah. No one ever told me that. >> Exactly. Exactly. Well, that’s wonderful. So, I’m conscious of the time. We’ve only got about 22 minutes left. So, I want to get on to Derek and Dan’s story. >> Which is totally different. >> Yeah.
      (47:48) because you were rebels and ran away, right? >> That is right. >> So, give us a little bit about that. >> So, Derek and I always had we we were more I would say nominal hunter rightites. We wouldn’t be fully convinced by the religion and we always wanted to have freedom. We want to experience the world both of us. And and I remember we want to go out and and and live the life of the world.
      (48:12) And we actually I remember thinking that I don’t ever want to stay in a colony. Maybe a little bit different than others like maybe Dawn here, >> but we would I think both of us would would say we never want to come back to this place. We we just had we didn’t really we liked growing up like that, but we wanted to have more.
      (48:30) >> That was that was how >> did you know that more existed? >> No, we we would have had something that >> for TV. >> We had a TV in our in our room which was totally frowned upon. My dad would have been so angry, but he had no idea. We secretly got a TV. So, we were kind of a little bit cultured to what’s going on outside because they try to keep you from knowing what’s going on outside in the world.
      (48:56) So, so that that you might be ignorant and so on. So, nowadays, I know they have cell phones and all that. they have they have internet access and so on. But we at our time we were able to get a TV into our house and we watched all the stuff that you can think of. We had five channels, farmers channels and so on.
      (49:14) And I remember we actually wanted to leave and we wanted to experience the world and we never wanted to come back. But going back a little bit further, I I do remember the colony not giving me any kind of hope. I remember going to Sunday school. I remember this very distinctly um until I was 15 years old. I remember going to Sunday afternoon to Sunday school.
      (49:33) Every Sunday afternoon there is Sunday school as well. So all the children from 5 to 15 go to Sunday school. Where is it? Is it even longer than that? >> 15 the older ones. 15 over 15. Okay, that’s right. And I remember they were talking about about um my dad my dad was the Sunday school teacher as well I guess cuz I remember him talking and I remember specifically feeling darkness a feeling of darkness in my soul after every Sunday school.
      (50:02) I remember going home walking out of Sunday school walking home to my house and I was like this feeling of dread and darkness that I could not shake until about an hour later until I forgot about everything related to God. and there was just this darkness there and that that I had personally and and so deep down I knew the hunter colony wasn’t the way.
      (50:23) Um my going back a little bit further my mom actually was a true born again Christian a lovely lovely Christian and she always shared with us that Jesus the colony is not the way to heaven. Jesus alone is >> Jesus alone is the way to heaven. Um she she would raise us with the hymns uh nothing but the blood of Jesus.
      (50:43) Um my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness and she would sing us this these songs all our life growing up. So we’re very blessed to have a Christian mom amazing Christian mom. Dad on the other hand so there’s a lot of friction in the house because he was the minister the headed minister in the Hutterite colony.
      (51:00) So there was a lot of friction. I remember that mom always we had a revival going through our colony woodlands there >> uh at I believe it was about 10 years before I left and there was a lot of uh like um uh friction going on there a revival was coming through where people have gotten saved okay >> and they and the gospel maybe 10 people or so got saved and there was a great people came my dad would call other preachers in the hut committee so there’s a committee over the they’re they’re somewhat autonomous but at the same time they’re under um the a
      (51:36) committee so they have to follow the rules of the committee. >> So uh I remember but this committee would come when Christians got when people got saved and come become born again Christians they would be called by the the preacher on the colony for the committee to come and and they would all come and have a counsel with the people at the church.
      (51:55) She would call the Christians together and have like a meeting with them and tell them what do you believe, why do you believe this and so on and so forth and try to reinforce them back to the hutterite system and they never could do that and I remember my dad so my mom would always stick up for the hut for the Christians >> and she always and she always fight they are right and dad would say no they’re wrong and so on there was a lot of friction in the house because of mom’s faith um so there was a lot of conf conflicted we didn’t quite know what to
      (52:20) believe >> so it was a little bit confusing although mom had a profound influence in our lives. We knew what she had was real cuz she was incredible. She was different than the rest. She was different. And then so we actually wanted to um wanted to leave that place. And I remember we were so we we decided to run away from the Hutter.
      (52:42) We were just 17 years years old, just kids still. And but we we so desperately wanted to leave. And and I remember my sister Amanda, she was talking about leaving because she she had gotten saved. And then so so she she was talking about leaving and we were like we have if we want to leave we have to leave now lest we are the last ones left and we completely destroyed dad’s heart cuz we knew he was going to be so affected cuz your sons are very >> it in a colony your sons are everything.
      (53:10) >> It’s your it’s like your posterity. They can get the big jobs in the colony. They can be the leaders and so on and so forth. And I think D can maybe continue from here. What do you >> So, how did you h how did you plan the escape then? >> Well, we we got a we we we had a little pocket money which you can make.
      (53:32) It’s frowned upon to have they say it’s for all for the colony. So, you’re not supposed to have any money for yourself. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, you want to have a little bit something for yourself, of course. And then so we we we had a trap line and my twin brother to make money for pocketing money >> for ourselves.
      (53:51) So we went out and we caught some furs and and sold them and all privately kind of >> and then you got a little puck on money. So it’s that’s how we did it. >> That’s not clever. >> Open secrets. Open secret. It’s open secret. I guess >> every generation does it. >> Yeah. And so what happened is >> So this is how you get your bus ticket to leave.
      (54:09) And so we we me and Dan were like, “Okay, well, we had a a flip phone.” So we went to the city one time for an appointment, doctor’s appointment. So you can go to to the city if you have an appointment. You have to ask the elders of the >> of the council and they can say yes, you can go or no, you can’t go. >> But if you have an appointment, you have a good reason to go and then can let you go.
      (54:26) So then we had an appointment and we go and we while we’re there, we would get >> with the little pocket of money that we had, we would, hey, let’s buy a flip phone cuz so nobody can track us if we’re calling for a phone. If we’re calling for a job, let’s say you want to go a job outside a colony, we want to run away. You want to keep it private.
      (54:42) >> So, what we would do is we’ get a we get a everything was secretive. Like we had this all thing planned. >> So, let’s get a a phone that we can um a flip phone so nobody can track us from the colony. There’s only one phone line that everyone can has can phone through. >> So, then that’s what we would do.
      (54:57) We go get get a flip phone and we we call some of the exhaust people that we knew that had left the colony and they had they had their own businesses. >> Yeah. And so we would try and get a job with them because they’re people that we know. We have contact with them somewhat. >> And so then we would get a little money and then we’d also arrange with some other friends in a different colony that we knew that had had access to a vehicle and they would be able to pick us up at a certain time and so we could coordinate all of this and get them to
      (55:22) buy buy us a ticket. We give them the money and they would buy us a ticket bus ticket. So all we needed to do is come go from our colony where we we were situated to the nearest city which had a bus which is Portage Prairie at the time from my colony. >> So what time of night did you run away? >> This is around 11 11:30 11:30ish and then so we had a bus ticket.
      (55:41) The guys would be waiting behind our house for lights to come from a distance. They’re coming at a certain time that was that we had planned it. We’d be getting a garbage bag or a garbage bag of clothes and we just wait till they come in and we meet them at a distance and they they would take us.
      (56:00) It’s like running away really secretive and you feel this rush and it’s like and and they pick you up and take you to the bus station. So what happened with us, we went to bus station in in Portage La Prairie and we had to wait in the it was such a fear because that’s where everyone knows if you run away and they find out you run away they go there to try and get you back. Mhm.
      (56:15) >> So, we were actually sitting in the back of that that Greyhound bus station in the trees. We dare not stay in front cuz it was delayed a little bit. They were scared. We’re like, “When are they going to come?” We’re looking always very anxious and then someone would would come and then the the bus would come finally a couple hours later and then we would go into the bus and it was like a 24-hour drive with the bus to to Cal a city called Calgary.
      (56:42) So it’s Manitoba where we were from through Saskatchewan into Alberta which is another province and then a city called Calgary. So we would go all the way there. That’s quite a distance. That’s a long long drive. >> So you you guys were 17year-old twins. You ran away to Calgary. Now I’ve already talked to you in the background so I know you spent some time there.
      (57:00) Living it up in the world. >> That is correct. >> Drinking, smoking, partying. >> That is exactly right. >> How long did that last? Now, this lasted only for I would say about five, was it four or five months. Um, it was quite a culture shock obviously cuz you’re coming from a farm. You’ve never really lived away from home and now you’re living in this massive city and you’re you you don’t even know what a credit card is.
      (57:26) So, you you have to get all that stuff sorted out. You get used to it somewhat fast. >> And and and so I remember we we lived in Calgary. I worked in Canmore and we were quite we we would actually party quite a bit. I I do remember for the first time in my life actually getting totally drunk and so on and and waking up throwing up and all that that trash >> and I remember feeling like this is I mean I didn’t expect to be feeling this empty. It was an emptiness there.
      (57:57) um that we but at the same time we were we we we did want that but we wanted to come back which is very unique. We wanted to come back to Manitoba. Now if I back if I back up a little bit we had this desire my brother Mark he was he got saved >> he’s older than you >> he’s older than us. He would be about 12 years older than us and he always came to the colony actually forgot to mention that earlier and he would share the gospel with us.
      (58:25) Uh, and I remember we were scared of him. We didn’t want to have anything to do with him because he would share he would talk openly about our sins and about hell and about Christ on the cross and so on. And we would be we didn’t we were just did not want to hear that. It was kind of terrifying to us.
      (58:44) And then so I remember we when we left we were like we’re not going to go to the Christians. We’re going to want to have our own way. But for some reason we wanted to come back to Manitoba. We had the dream out in Calgary and yet we wanted to come back to Manitoba and Derek and you can go here from here. You went back to Manitoba for a trip, right? So this is while we were in Calgary living a sinful life that like Don was saying the pleasures of sin experiencing that.
      (59:11) We I went back on a visit in between this four or five months uh with with my my boss at the time that I was with cuz he also was exile right going back to visit his family in the colony. But then I was going back and my brother Mark lived in Winnipeg and he was also runaway and he had also been saved like my brother Daniel was saying and he I I stayed with him for about four or five days while we’re met to for a visit in Manitoba and he took me out to uh a church meeting where he was going a local church that he was at where they preach
      (59:44) the gospel >> and I remember going to a a time when he was when they were to a breaking of bread meeting in the morning, a remembrance meeting at that church where he was at. And I remember sitting in the back >> Mhm. >> and being absolutely amazed and like it struck me so much that these people have have it. They’ve got the truth.
      (1:00:09) So much so that I was and I saw I was just observing them. I realized they know God. >> Amen. >> They’re speaking to God as if they know him. It really was like it was it’s such an eye opening experience and it convinced me. >> And you were just 18 at the time. >> I was just 17 at the time and and just by by observation and watching this >> Mhm.
      (1:00:30) >> uh with my brother Mark just the remembrance meeting by seeing these people they’re speaking to a real savior. They have a real person. I don’t I don’t have the savior. What I’ve had growing up and what I what I thought I had is actually nothing >> real. I don’t have the truth. And that started a little that started something in my heart.
      (1:00:49) And then I rang up my brother Daniel and I said to him, “Bro, they have the truth. >> They have the truth.” And he said to me, “Stay away from them. Stay away from because unless we’ve been infected because we were like, we want to have our life, our sin li. We know.” So we’re kind of torn in the middle there.
      (1:01:05) We realized what they have is true. What we don’t have, what we have is not true. >> But yeah, we we wanted our our sinful life, >> right? >> So we were in in this in this way. And then I went back to Calgary and I remember living there. I remember distinctly right now the Lord started working with my heart and I I was after this whole like drinking partying life.
      (1:01:25) There’s one time I went home for a walk. It was about an hour walk from my neighborhood where I was at in Calgary. >> And I was thinking this this thought came to my heart. Where would you be if you died today? Now it was so powerful that it it it it stuck with me. It did not leave and there was there was no answer and the answer would have been from my heart if I had to be honest is I would be in hell but there was no way out.
      (1:01:54) >> I realized thing I remember thinking there’s no hope the colony what I learned there my whole life there’s no hope. I don’t have any hope. >> Mhm. >> And so that was kind of the start where the Lord started working. I know from my heart by seeing the church there, seeing the people there in that church that Mark was at and seeing that they’re they have a salvation, there’s something real and I don’t have what they have.
      (1:02:15) >> So then I’m conscious we’ve only got sort of 10 minutes and we want to get a lot more in. So you then came back from Calgary in Alberta through Saskatchewan back into Manitoba and you started working for your brother Mark. Was that right? Now, I would I started working for my brother Mark, but shortly afterwards after we came back to Manitoba, I got a job working with him right away.
      (1:02:41) And I was only here for maybe a week, not even a week. >> And the church that my brother Mark was at >> had uh a special meetings. There was children’s meetings at the time, but then they also had a a special speaker the maybe the other week. I’m not quite sure, but there was a preacher from the UK here.
      (1:03:00) His name was Eric Parmentor, I remember. And my brother Mark was talking about asking us to come out to the meetings if we wanted to come out. He was very nice about it and he didn’t pressure us, but we were like we wanted to have our own life still at this point. >> And I remember we I went to that but then so Derek and I I remember my brother Mark this one Sunday specifically. It was November 11, 2007.
      (1:03:22) I’m never going to forget that date. >> It’s a precious date actually. And I remember he asked us to come out to to this church where he was attending. It was the end of these meetings and there was this one preacher and he preached on John 3 and 16. >> So this is literally a week after you got back. >> This is a week after I got back.
      (1:03:44) We we we avoided that church for a while because we wanted to have our own wasted. We said, I remember we were at the Blue Bombers game in the afternoon of that Sunday and and we said maybe we should go just to please Mark to get him off our back. Maybe we should go there. Uh just and then he’s not going to ask us anymore.
      (1:04:03) And so we said we decided yes, we’ll go and and I remember at that at that church hearing the go a clear gospel. >> Amen. >> Of Christ and our lost condition before God. What does that mean? Lost condition. >> Lost condition really means that we are ruined in sin. A scripture like Romans 3:23 says, “For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.
      (1:04:29) ” So, every one of us have fallen short of God’s perfect standard >> because of our sin. >> So, this preacher was explaining, >> this preacher was explaining this for the first time and and I remember him speaking for God and he it looked so dark and then he spoke on for God. so loved the world and he emphasized so what did he do that he gave his only begotten son that’s Jesus Christ that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life and I remember sitting in that meeting for the f first time in my life realizing where
      (1:05:02) I was that I was actually lost because up to up till now I kind of thought I might be make it to heaven I I’m not sure I’m I think I’m a good enough guy I didn’t know and this is the first time our lives in my life or spirit of God convicted me of my sin and I realized where I where I was going that I’m actually lost that I need to be saved.
      (1:05:22) I need a savior and I remember being I was sh I think I was even shaking in my seat there and and I remember after and I could not shake it. I’m like I this is for the first time I realized this is truth >> and I need to I need to get this settled tonight. And I remember from not hearing at all to all of a sudden being shaking.
      (1:05:43) And I remember that night afterwards, my brother and Mark and Derek would go out and would go home and I would say to my brother Derek, I they would kind of be laughing about something and I would be thinking, “How can they be laughing? I need to we’re we’re lost and we need to get this dealt with.
      (1:05:59) There’s no time to laugh.” I remember thinking that way. And I remember going up into that washroom there in Winnipeg in my brother Mark’s house and I would go straight into the washroom and I locked the door and I fell on my face before God. >> And I just cried out to God, please save me, Lord. I knew I need to be saved.
      (1:06:15) I’m lost. Please save me. And right at that moment, I remember a verse that came into mind, the same verse he was preaching on. It says that whosoever believeth in him, >> and I realized it’s all Christ. It is actually nothing to do with uh whosoever does good works or whoever gets baptized, whoever lives in the Hudite colony, it says nothing of that.
      (1:06:35) It says whosoever believes or trusts or relies in Christ. >> Is this John 3:16? >> That is John 3:16. Whosoever trusts in Christ alone >> uh and at that moment I got saved >> and I washed the floor and the Lord Jesus Christ saved my life. And maybe Derek can go on after and talk about that. >> So then what did you think of that? So he comes out of the the washroom and and he just rejoices.
      (1:07:00) I go, “I just got saved.” He tells my brother Mark. And I’m like, “Oh boy, he’s he’s one of those now. He’s one of those. He’s he did it.” Cuz I knew he was >> and he was the one that didn’t want you. >> Yeah. I remember he was he was the one that was just before like really want to be saved cuz I remember he turned to me in the car and said, “Derek, we need to be saved.
      (1:07:19) ” And I was like, “Yeah, you’re right. I feel uncomfortable.” But I hadn’t been struck like he had. And he was very much like like this is real. If I die tonight, we’re gonna be where are we going to go? And it’s this real almost panic in his eyes. >> And so when he came out actually now I got sealed and like oh boy okay well I’m the one out. I don’t have it.
      (1:07:39) And and so for me it took a little bit longer. It took a couple more weeks week and a half longer. And through that time was a very difficult time for me. Um, I I was still holding on to things of myself and holding on to to my friends and what I have to give up >> and realizing that this is this is real and I but not realizing that there’s nothing that I can do yet.
      (1:07:58) I said, I’ll get see you when I can when I want to. >> And over a period of of a week and a half, the Lord started working with me individually. And I remember being starting to be convicted of my sin. So I realized that I’m I’m lost just like he was saying, but trying to be saved. I realized I I can’t get this.
      (1:08:17) I because I knew he had just been saved like this since this is quite easy. I just but I just couldn’t get my soul was dark and I remember just being very in turmoil. I remember the the two nights before >> especially the night before I actually got saved. I was at home in my brother Mark’s house and I mean my brother Mark would ask me sometimes are you saved or would they challenge me? >> And I be like no I’m not or yes I am.
      (1:08:41) Just get him off my back a little bit. But he didn’t realize it wasn’t insincere. But then all of a sudden I would be like, “Okay, that night before I was really convicted of my sin and realized I actually am lost.” >> Amen. >> And it was a realization but not just dark, not knowing how to be saved. And the next morning I remember going to to a warehouse at work.
      (1:09:01) >> This is in Winnipeg. And I was I was a truck carrier. I was driving delivering parcels to different businesses. >> And I remember just almost scared of even going there cuz I was scared of dying. >> Mhm. cuz I’m like I’m in this lost state and I’m I’m desperate right now. So much so that when I went to the warehouse at 6:30 in the morning of it was November 20, 2007.
      (1:09:23) I went and I just was at the end of myself and I fell on my face in the the bathroom the sorry the washroom there. I went aside. I was I like I can’t work today. I I I rather not work. I’m just I’m lost. And I fell on my face. I remember throwing my gloves in the corner and just falling off. I’m lost and I’m going down and there’s not like just like the past but more this is now at the end of myself. No hope. No hope.
      (1:09:49) >> And all of a sudden when I realized this is it light came to my life. Jesus died for me. It is finished. >> Mhm. >> And like Jesus died for me. Where did that come from? That’s why Jesus died for died for me. >> So you’d heard that but now it was like >> it was I had heard this. I had heard this >> because you because you understood your loss. Now you can see it. Exactly.
      (1:10:08) Because I understood I was lost and and it’s I think you have to come to that place when you realize you’re hopelessly lost and you’re a sinner and there’s nothing you can do about it and you’re you’re desperate and it’s in that moment when God revealed to my heart Christ is the way Jesus died for you.
      (1:10:25) He paid for that. >> So did you know I am saved at that point? >> I knew for 100% fact >> there and nobody could take it from me. Yeah, >> I was beyond amazed. I was like, “This I’m saved.” >> Mhm. >> Jesus did it all. >> And then I told my brother Mark and Dana that that same day, that night. And Mark turned to me and said to me, “We’ll see.
      (1:10:50) ” >> And I remember thinking, “We will see. >> Nobody can take this from you.” Amen. >> Cuz Jesus paid Jesus paid for it. >> Yeah. >> He is my savior. Nobody can take that from you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I had him as I changed. Mhm. >> I became a different person. >> Very much so. >> So, let’s just take a couple minutes here. I finish with you, Don.
      (1:11:11) So, this video could be watched by anybody anywhere in the world, but let’s just say there’s a Hutterite person watching this video right now. >> Mhm. >> And they can resonate with some of the stuff you’ve been saying about the colony and their upbringing and whatever. Or maybe there’s one that’s run away and they’ve tried the world and it doesn’t seem to work.
      (1:11:32) What would you summarize in like two minutes? What do you What do you want to tell that person? >> What I would love to tell that person like God can save you. He loves you. >> Christ died for you. You can be free from your sin. >> You can know Jesus Christ as your own and personal savior. >> Get your get a Bible.
      (1:11:56) Get it in English so you can actually understand it properly and read it. the verses here that are very precious. First John 5, it’s very salvation work has been done. It’s actually really simple. It says, “He that has the son hath life. >> He that does not have the son has not life.” So, do you have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? And it says, “And these things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life and that you may believe on the name of the son of God.” So eternal
      (1:12:33) life is a person >> and that person is Jesus Christ. And I also want to say, I know we want to keep this positive, but yet do not trust men who are not born again who tell you that you cannot know. >> Amen. >> Yeah. Because that says that you might know, right? >> Yes. And the Bible makes it clear that men who preach another gospel are not from God.
      (1:13:00) >> Paul actually says in Galatians that they’re accursed. >> So don’t trust me. Don’t trust your preacher. Look to the eternal word of God. >> Yes. >> And like my brothers have shared, you have to come to the end of yourself >> and Christ will give you life. Amen. >> And then you’re justified. Mike, what an amazing thing.
      (1:13:22) He not only forgives you, >> but you’re put into the right standing with God. >> Being justified by faith, you have peace with God. >> So God sees you now in the perfect righteousness of his son. >> He has imputed righteousness. And what a beautiful truth it is to people who grew up religious. >> Thinking somehow they can please God. >> There’s millions of stories out there.
      (1:13:44) >> We’re not unique. >> Amen. >> But we’re justified. >> We’ve been reconciled. We were enemies. >> But now we’re the children of God. >> Hallelujah. >> Amen. It’s been really wonderful. I can’t tell you. We’ve been wanting to do this for so long and now we’ve done it >> and it’s out there. you you know the way you see things now through the scriptures is just like night and day compared with what and it’s all the grace of God.
      (1:14:13) >> Amen. Amen. >> We’re so thankful for the precious Lord Jesus Christ. It’s him and him alone. >> Amen. Amen. >> It’s him. We cannot emphasize that enough. It’s Jesus Christ and him alone. He is the only way to heaven. That’s who who we rejoice in. Amen. >> And then and sorry and the emphasis is not on anything you do. So baptism.
      (1:14:32) >> Yeah. follows salvation. >> Sure. But it’s not meritorious. >> Amen. Exactly. >> Dan, Don, Derek, thank you so much for being with us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much, Michael. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Wonderful.

      The post We Grew Up On a Hutterite Colony, But We Had No Assurance of Salvation | Dan, Don & Derek first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

      1 hr 16 min
    1. We Were Raised Mennonite But We Had No Peace With God | Kyle, Tyler & Margaret

      Kyle Voth, and Tyler and Margaret Warkentin grew up in Mennonite anabaptist communities in North and South America. In this interview, they discuss with Michael Penfold the history, culture and beliefs of the Mennonites, and how growing up they had no peace that they were right with God or sure of getting to heaven. Watch their fascinating stories and learn where the assurance of salvation comes from.

      Recorded in Manitoba, Canada, 24th Feb 2026

      Complete Series:

        We Were Raised Mennonite – Kyle, Tyler and Margaret
        We Were Very Religious Hutterites – Silas, Adrian, Cody and Marissa
        Calvinist and Reformed – Hendrik, Kelsey, Leanne and Hendrik

        Further resources:

        Eternal security | Mervyn Hall

        Knowing for Sure You Are Saved | Michael Penfold
        The Assurance of Salvation | Michael Penfold
        The Sacrifice that Satisfies | Michael Penfold
        5 Poems About the Assurance of Salvation
        How Do You Know You Are Saved? | Michael Penfold
        The Remarkable Conversion of W.W. Fereday
        Are You Saved? | Michael Penfold

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        (Recorded at the Sarnia Gospel Hall Conference, Ontario, Canada, May 2025)

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        FULL VIDEO TRANSCRIPT:
        (00:00) If there was a vehicle coming to the colony, they would definitely look where where that vehicle was going. >> Oh, I see. >> They [music] would spy. I think it’s called the midnight game, finding out who knows who and who they’re married to. >> I was asked at [music] work one of the lunch hours if I was saved.
        (00:15) >> Mhm. >> I said, “Well, I’m baptized.” [music] >> The man just responded, “That’s not what I asked.” >> A man from I think he was from Ontario. He showed up on our yard. I guess the Holy Spirit had told him, “This [music] family is searching.” He already said, “It is finished.” Well, what else are we going to do? >> Yeah, there’s there’s nothing more to do. It’s already done.
        (00:40) >> Kyle, Tyler, Margaret, great to have you with us today. Uh, we’ve been looking forward to doing this for a long time. The idea to put all these people together and discuss the communities here in Manitoba. I don’t think anybody could possibly guess what the temperature is outside. It is minus30.
        (01:02) How do you guys survive in this weather? >> We adapt. [laughter] >> As soon as I got here, I had to go and buy a new jacket in Marx that was good for minus 25 cuz my other jacket that I bought from England just like tissue paper and just the wind just cut straight through it nearly killed me. So in Manitoba, you have a number of religious communities that we don’t have in the UK.
        (01:28) So I was familiar with the Amish because I’ve seen them in the US before, but Hutterites, Menanites, Dutch Reform, these are people that we’re not familiar with and I thought it’d be a great idea to get some of them together and just talk about your background, what it’s like to be. So you you you’re all three Menanites.
        (01:46) So, we’re going to do a a session on on the on the what what it is to be a Menanite, what it’s like, what does it mean, where did it start? Cuz what what I found is just going around like Polo Park in Winnipeg, you see all these different people dressed in different ways, which is very unusual for us with veils and and it’s like I really want to get to know what these people are like.
        (02:11) So, maybe we just start just a very brief introduction to yourself, Kyle. I’m Kyle Vloth and uh I have a wife, six children, been saved for 10 years. That’s important. >> Mhm. >> And yeah, I do paintless dent repair for work and >> Yeah. >> So, VH is is that like a German name? >> Yeah, it would would be. >> So, would Menanites generally have German original German >> background names? technically Netherlands Dutch.
        (02:46) >> Okay. >> Um but yeah, we are lowger German speaking or what we call plot each. Yeah. >> Oh wow. >> Yeah. So Tyler and Margaret, you’re you’re a married couple. >> Yes, we >> um so what’s introduce yourself? I know you have a a newborn, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My name is Tyler Workington.
        (03:09) Uh we have a seventh month old boy. His name is Nathaniel. And uh yeah, we uh live here in Manitoba and um I drive a delivery truck around in Manitoba for work and >> with winter tires on at the moment. Eh, >> with winter tires on at the moment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s >> See, that’s another thing we don’t have in England or in the UK. Winter tires.
        (03:34) Never heard of them. But I mean without those it would be a mess, right? it. Uh, winter is um I I love the four seasons here in Canada and you know winter it’s just something you get used to. I grew up here. You just get used to it. It’s uh I mean I’ve been driving truck now for um for like 9 years and uh the hardest part about driving in the winter is all in the head. I like it.
        (04:10) Actually, yeah, there are those cold days and there are days where where it’s windy and it’s poor visibility and it’s snowing, but once winter’s all over, uh you think, “Well, that wasn’t that bad actually.” And it’s all wrapped up in the head is where the hardest part. >> Another thing I’ve never seen in Manitoba is you open the front door and this cloud of steam seems to come in.
        (04:32) It’s amazing. So, you’re you’re stay-at-home mom, right? >> Yes. >> Looking after Nathaniel? Yes, that’s mostly my job. But I Yeah, that and then look after housework. They do the cooking and >> wonderful >> whatever else needs to be done. >> Such a beautiful place, Manitoba and all covered in white at the moment.
        (04:52) So, let’s get into the let’s get into the the whole history thing here. So, when we think of Mananites, Kyle, where does that name come from? Does it go back centuries? Did it start in Canada? just give us what you can a kind of a brief overview of that. >> Sure. So, um, Menanites came out of the Anabaptist movement of the res reformation.
        (05:17) >> So, so what is what does Anabaptist mean? >> Rebaptizers. >> Okay. >> Yes. So that started uh early 1500s is when sort of that group formed and and the man who it’s named after Meno Simon he sort of joined and began teaching mid 1500s about then so there was already a group established and >> so what was his name >> Menos Simons >> so he would have been born Roman Catholic >> yes he was a priest >> oh a priest >> he was yeah >> in what country >> that’s a good question Netherlands I I think is where he was originally from.
        (05:53) So the Menanites sort of northern Belgium and Netherlands is where that all started. >> So he would have been baptized as a baby in the Catholic church. Then he would have gone to seminary and he would have trained as a priest. Yes. >> And then would he did he have like a religious conversion? >> Yes.
        (06:15) And I’m I’m not necessarily familiar with his testimony, but he realized the error of of what the religion he was involved with. >> And um he began teaching >> um well the name rebaptizers I guess sort of gives it away. So a conversion, a believer’s baptism and then separation of church and state would have been involved in his teachings.
        (06:38) Um not taking up arms, this sort of thing. So, so he would have got that from his own reading of the Bible. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So, he must have had a Bible in by then the Bibles were available in in in German, let’s say, cuz it was always in Latin for centuries. >> Yes. Well, likely he would have known Latin if he was a priest, I’m assuming.
        (06:59) >> Oh, yes, of course. >> But yes, his writings were in Dutch, I think. >> Yeah. >> So, then his surname, no, his first name, Menow. >> Yes. So Meno is where we get Menanites. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So he did he begin preaching once he had seen the light of salvation and and and believers baptism. >> Yeah.
        (07:25) So I I guess he was sort of in a role like that in the Roman Catholic Church already. So he transitioned to just teaching and writing about the truth that he was seeing in the scriptures. So how he got joined up with the groups maybe that were already there. I’m not sure how that all worked out but >> so this was this was quite a thing right back >> yes >> back in 15 roughly 1550 or something >> around that time. Yeah.
        (07:49) So, so back then to actually claim that the church which had been the one church for a thousand years, let’s say in Europe, the Catholic Roman Catholic Church >> to actually say they’re wrong about something as because they take Christing or sprinkling as as a sacrament, right? It’s all part of getting to heaven, right? >> So to actually say you don’t need that or it’s wrong.
        (08:13) And actually the Bible teaches first of all you need to be be saved. Then as an adult you then get baptized which of course to the Catholic Church is rebaptism and a baptism. So so that’s like that made the Catholic Church extremely angry. >> Yes. Yes. >> And and so his followers then started getting persecuted. >> Yes.
        (08:38) And so um of course there were many martyrs of that day. >> Mhm. >> Um people gave their lives for what they believed and their faith in Christ. Um, Menos Simon wasn’t a martyr, but he was a wanted man. Yes. And of course, the persecution made the group move. That’s so that’s where it began. Northern Belgium, Netherlands. And that first big move, I guess, was to Poland or Prussia at that time.
        (09:05) >> So they moved to avoid being burnt at the stake or whatever. >> Yeah. Persecution from the Roman Catholic Church. And as they moved, did they find they were welcome in certain places or did they just keep moving? >> Yes, they they ended up staying in Poland for I think 400 years or maybe not quite that long, 300 years till about >> Oh, so they were in one country just all that time.
        (09:29) >> Yeah. Okay. >> Until actually it was about I think mid700s and then they moved to Russia. At least the group that I’m from. >> Okay. >> Um they would have moved to Russia. It’s now Ukraine, but then it was Russia. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> And that again was because persecution broke out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
        (09:50) And they so they wanted to sort of maintain autonomy from politics and government and they wanted their own schools and their own language and their own churches and be separate from bearing arms for the country. >> And so Russia at that time promised them that. There were some stipulations when they moved. They weren’t allowed to prostilize the Russians.
        (10:12) They weren’t allowed to share their faith with with the the Orthodox people around them. >> Yeah. >> Because again, when you think back to to the pre-reformation times, the Catholic Church, there was no separation of church and state that that they were together. and and the the church could deliver a a heretic over to the secular arm to burn at the stage.
        (10:40) >> So >> there was no what we take for granted now freedom of conscience, freedom of religion. You can believe whatever you want. It’s very difficult to even take your mind back and think what must that have been like for a for Menow Simon to actually say I’m going to risk my life for what I believe. >> Yes.
        (11:00) Yes. and that and and those that listen to him as well. >> Yeah. >> So, I know Margaret, you’re you’re originally from Bolivia. >> Yes. >> Now, that really shocked me when I found out there’s menotes in Bolivia and then I looked up online and it said there’s 90 colonies in Bolivia, there’s 25 in Paraguay and then it sort of goes down Brazil and whatever.
        (11:22) So, when did this migrate? Do you know when the migration happened? So, we’re you’ve gone to Russia now in the 1700s. When did they end up coming to South America? >> I wouldn’t know exactly the date, but >> would that have been in the 18 was it the 1800s when they came across to Canada? Yes. >> And then would they gone down to >> Yeah.
        (11:45) >> South America from there? >> Yeah. I think the first group would have been 1870s and they they all came to southern Manitoba because the government had given >> we are filming today. Right. >> That’s right. Yeah. >> The remnants of that are still here. >> Yeah. >> Um so they they were the Menites as a group were given two tracks of land, the east reserve and the west reserve by the government.
        (12:08) >> Oh wow. >> And so they all settled here >> again not wanting to bear arms. They wanted separate education. >> Yeah. >> And in early 1900s that started to change here. The government wanted formal education and and many of them didn’t like that. So that’s when they started moving south. So northern Mexico, South America, Central America.
        (12:34) >> So that’s in the 19th century. >> Yeah. Like 1920s. >> Oh, 20th century. Okay. >> Yeah. So then that’s when Margaret’s uh grandparents, greatgrandparents would have moved to Mexico from Canada. >> Okay. Right. In the early early 20th century, >> your your great-grandparents were born here in Canada, right? >> Yes.
        (13:00) >> Yeah. >> Yes. And then from here, I guess since like what he said, like they didn’t want to >> like No, they didn’t want separate bear arms. Yeah. They didn’t want >> separate school. >> Separate school. So >> that would have been during the first world war. There would have been Canadians would have been sent over to Europe to fight.
        (13:16) So they didn’t want to have anything to do with that. >> That’s right. >> Yeah. >> There were um conscientious object objectors from the Menanites. So >> I would have had a great-grandfather that had to work in a logging camp for that was World War II, I think. But >> Mhm. >> they didn’t uh most of them didn’t actually fight. >> Oh, yeah. I know the Canadians.
        (13:38) I remember going to uh the battlefields of World War I and there was a lot of Canadians killed there. >> So yeah, [clears throat] so that that that brings me to look at the kind of spectrum of the Menanites because I’m led to believe there’s there’s not just like this one way of being a Menanite. So you’ve got before we came on air we were we were you you described it as you were in a liberal manites and Kyle was in mediocre I think is what you called him and then Margaret was from a traditional conservative horse and buggy
        (14:13) type manites. So so tell me about that. So, adding a little bit to what Kyle said, um, of the migration, my great-grandparents came here to Canada [gasps] just over 100 years ago now in 1925. They came to to Canada from uh, Russia, now Ukraine. they uh immigrated here to Canada because like Kyle said of the persecution and the bandits coming and the the Red Army and so my great-grandparents decided to make the long uh trip over to Canada >> and uh so I’m fourth generation here now in Canada already and I’ll say that I
        (15:05) was I was born born a Menanite but uh no longer hold to the Menite um traditions. >> Okay. >> And and religious system. Uh but yeah, that’s where >> so so what we like in England and Ireland, Scotland, back back in the UK, we would have a lot of people like if they went to hospital and it says, “What religion are you?” they would write Church of England.
        (15:33) But they actually only go at Christmas. you know, they’re nominally church of things. So, you’re saying you were like a nominal Menanite. You basically went to church, but it didn’t really affect your everyday life. >> Uh, I guess, yeah, went to church. Uh, went to church. Um, yeah. What should I say about my upbringing? Church.
        (15:53) Um, I’ll say I was consider myself a pretty much normal Canadian. um from family, go to church on Sunday morning and uh yeah, listen to the preacher and go home and and that’s about it. You you keep on you keep on living life. But uh you we didn’t uh we didn’t know the gospel at at the Menite Church and and like you were saying before >> um that was a a liberal liberal Menite church.
        (16:28) They weren’t holding to any um things that you had to do in order to be part of of the church. >> Okay. >> Very liberal. >> So you that so you didn’t the the ladies in your house didn’t dress a certain way or you didn’t have to wear what we call braces. I think you call them suspenders. There was no dress code for you. >> No. No. Nothing like that.
        (16:50) Nothing like that. And at the church were they preaching all the sort of distinct things like anabaptism separation church and state you mustn’t bear arms you you need to have separate education was that a big thing or no nothing no it was more like the preacher would preach from the Bible but more just I’ll say um that God is love and and uh you know thinking about it uh when there was a funeral.
        (17:21) Um, an old person died. >> He went to be he went to heaven. Went to heaven. >> But, uh, really there there was no gospel about being saved. Okay. >> That that uh that we never heard. >> So the kind of sermons that you would have gotten Sunday morning would have been talking about the love of God or some Bible story or something >> something or other like that. Mhm.
        (17:46) >> Um, you know, I was uh quite a lot younger than I am now. Um, I was like 10 years old, 11, 11, I guess, when we would have left from that Menite church. One thing I do remember that I still find kind of funny is I remember the the pastor um talking about the football game that was on the weekend and I thought like really like sports is one thing but why talk about it in church? Um so yeah there wasn’t uh much truth at all >> okay >> at at the church.
        (18:26) >> So it wasn’t like heavy Bible teaching. It wasn’t heavy Bible teaching. No. No. >> And this is in southern Manitoba. >> Yeah. Yeah. Also also in southern Manitoba. Just just around 2 hours east here. >> Yeah. So I typed into Google what are the most religious towns in Canada. And it’s the two most religious were Winkler and Steinbeck.
        (18:48) >> Yeah. >> And >> so that’s near where you grew up. >> Yeah. That’s that’s very near to where I grew up. when when we would go to to the city shopping, we would have gone to Steinbeck. >> So in those days, there have been no Sunday opening, >> stores not open on Sunday. >> Yeah. I would have grown up the the store in town would be closed.
        (19:09) I think even the gas station was closed. >> If if you wanted gas, then you should have filled up on Saturday. But like you have to think ahead. >> Mhm. So would the Menanites have believed or do they still believe that Sunday is like the sort of Christian Sabbath? >> Yeah. >> Um I don’t know what what the liberal Menanites believe now nowadays.
        (19:34) Then that would probably be something more for the conservative Menites. >> Okay. Okay. Cool. So and so in in the Steinbeck Winkler area, it’s Winkler, right? >> Yeah. Right. So in that area it’s it’s very much like what we would call the Bible belt. It’s a very does everybody know everybody and they kind of all know which church you go to that kind of thing.
        (19:57) >> Well there is this thing um talking about knowing everybody. The Menites they like to know what is it called? What is it called again Kyle? I think it’s called the Midnight game. Not >> it’s been referenced >> finding out who who knows who and who they’re who they’re married to and >> Oh, I see.
        (20:19) And so when you meet someone, it’s all who are you related to? >> Who who are you related to and and who’s who’s your dad and granddad and >> so there’ll be a lot of intermarriage I guess because you’re all wanting to marry. So a Menanite would want to marry another Menanite, right? Um basically >> I don’t know basically generally how generally because it’s your only people effectively.
        (20:42) >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Excellent. So um you’re liberal so let’s move to the middle of the road um version of the Menanites. I mean do they have very specific name? Are you like or is it very much it just settles down into how you want how serious you want to be? Yeah. So we were part of a group of churches and there was variation even within the group.
        (21:11) >> So I I think that where we were attending as a young boy at least it was probably more of the on the conservative side of the group. So we would have >> And does that have a name that group? >> Yes. Um we were part of the Somerfelder Menanites. >> So what does Summerrfelder mean? >> It was just the name of the town where it started I think.
        (21:32) >> Okay. Right. Yeah. >> Um, so my understanding is that group is quite a bit different now than when it was 30 years ago. So I can’t speak to what they are now, but what I grew up with, it would have been you walk into church Sunday morning and you’d have men on one side of the the church and then ladies and women and the the young children on the other and you would have had preachers up front, song leaders up front.
        (21:59) And >> so, but in your church, the men and women would have sat all intermingled >> all together. Yeah. >> Okay. So, what’s the idea of of separating the men and the women? >> I couldn’t tell you. >> Okay. >> I don’t know if that was ever taught or why or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, services were in low German.
        (22:16) >> So, what is low German for the benefit of viewers and listeners? >> It’s, you know, I couldn’t tell you the origins, but it must have come from Dutch or Fian or something. and and it remained because of their separation from the world around them, it has remained pretty true to what it is. >> So in so so so you are all bilingual.
        (22:38) You can all speak German and English, right? >> Not me. >> Not you, but you two. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. And that’s because you want to maintain that in the home. >> We haven’t. Um Okay. But growing up, >> not that it was necessarily taught, but English in the church wasn’t really allowed. But it was looked down on.
        (22:57) So >> Oh, so your church services were all in German. >> Yes. >> Oh, wow. >> Um, more so probably from the older generation. >> Um, so and in the home we spoke English. I went to public school. So Okay. >> Once I hit that age, it was 100% English in the home pretty much. >> So it’s a bit like some Catholics believe the mass should be said in Latin.
        (23:17) >> Yeah. >> So you believe that the church So would would the church services still be in German in in the group? No. So they made the change. Yeah. >> Okay. Interesting. So, um, compared with, uh, Tyler’s church where you’re just getting sermons that are sort of anemic, let’s say.
        (23:42) What kind of preaching did you grow up under? It’s hard to define. Um I as I was thinking about this the past week, the best way I think I can describe it is self-centered teaching. >> And what I mean by that is everything from that was taught from the scriptures was revolving around self. So, uh, for example, if Abraham and Isaac was taught and Abraham taking Isaac up onto the mount >> to sacrifice, it would be taught that we should have that sort of obedience to God.
        (24:18) >> It was more about us rather than a father giving a son. >> Mhm. >> Uh, which obviously points us to God and to Christ. >> And so, we wouldn’t we wouldn’t have had Christ centered teaching, but self-centered teaching. M >> um and that would that would go for anything. I mean even >> uh I know this story has been brought up before, but um the good Samaritan, it was taught that we needed to be the good Samaritan.
        (24:44) We >> we needed to be that good person rather than Christ being the good Samaritan and we being the one falling in a ditch needing the help. >> Mhm. >> So that’s what I mean by self-centered. >> Mhm. So compared with Tyler, did you did did you have the dress code? >> So So I’ve noticed when when when I’ve been in in Winnipeg, I’ve noticed >> the Hutterites are very distinctive.
        (25:15) So they have this kind of black veil and and maybe a long blue dress with flowers on it. It’s like very very distinctive. With the Menanites, it’s >> the Menanite ladies. They look very wholesome with long hair and and and and modest dress, but they would just have like a small cap or a little bonnet on the back of their head.
        (25:36) Would you have gone gone for that? >> Depending on the group, um the women from where I came from did wear what they called a head covering. Okay. >> So, it wasn’t a circular bonnet type thing. It was more of a kirchief is what we called it or >> Mhm. sort of a small veil and uh going to church we would dress up we would dress respectfully but outside of that that didn’t really affect the home.
        (26:02) >> Yeah. >> So then in in we’ll come to we’ll come to the um old order in a minute in in in your home life. So were you homeschooled? >> No. >> So the Menanites have their own schools? >> No, I went to public school. >> Oh, of course you said you went to public school. And what about you? Were you at public school as well? >> I started at public school.
        (26:23) >> Okay. >> And then my parents uh started homeschooling. My um we we started homeschooling. We started homeschooling. Uh but that wasn’t uh anything to do with Menite. That was my my parents own personal >> um decision. >> Okay. So then again coming from a UK perspective we often think of the Amish you know they don’t have electricity and they don’t have um cars and you know for you life was otherwise pretty normal >> fairly. Yeah.
        (27:04) We >> we would have looked the same as people. >> I mean as far as that goes we wouldn’t have gone to the movies or to the ball game and this sort of thing. I guess we were sort of separate from that in that way. >> But as as far as just if you would see us walk down the street, you wouldn’t necessarily differentiate.
        (27:24) >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So then let’s come to the to the to the old you were from the of the three of you Margaret you were from the more strict group. >> Yeah, I would say >> which is called old order. Is that right? >> Old old colony what I would say. Yeah. So you you were brought up in Bolivia. >> Yes.
        (27:47) [clears throat] >> Would all of the colonies in Bolivia be old order? >> No. >> Okay. >> There’s new colonies now, too, like that has recently started, but >> Okay. So, there’s a whole spectrum even in South America and Mexico. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah, that’s true. >> So, what what was it like growing up in in an old order Menanite church, old order Menanite family? Just generally, how would that be different from how your husband grew up? >> Like for me, I I I wasn’t I didn’t grow up like being in going to church.
        (28:20) >> Oh, okay. >> I was only like you were only allowed to go to church once you were done school, >> like after school. >> So, you grew up not going to church? >> No, I think the only the first time I was at church was like what was I maybe 10, 11 years old. >> Okay. But that that was my my mom’s relatives or I guess they came and picked us up like with a they lived in a different colony.
        (28:46) >> Okay. >> And then they came and picked us up and brought us to their church too >> that we were >> So your parents were not religious Menanites. >> Yes. >> Yes, they were. But I guess for for us like they didn’t have children at church. Just the older >> I see. >> Like once you were 13 or >> I see right.
        (29:06) Your parents, your parents were going, but because you were children, you were not. >> No. >> Oh, okay. >> No. >> Wow. Interesting. >> Girls would go to church uh school like till they were like maybe 12 years old. They start at 5 and until >> 11 12 and then the boys would go a year longer. >> And that’s in a Menanite school. >> Yes. >> Okay.
        (29:25) >> Yeah. Now I, as I say, I looked online, it talks about um 19 menite colonies in uh Bolivia. I didn’t think Menanites lived on colonies. I thought that was a Hutterite thing. So, is it a colony or what way does it work? >> Yeah, I would say colony. Yeah. >> But do you do does each family own their own house or >> Yes.
        (29:48) >> Okay. >> Yeah, they all have their own house. >> So, you’re not sharing everything like the Hutterites do? No. No. No. But you’re living basically living in a village or a group of Yeah. >> Yes, that’s right. Yeah. >> So, what was what was church like then when you finally went to church as as a as a youngster? What are your memories of that? >> I was like I was amazed like at home you they would never tell us anything about church.
        (30:15) >> Oh, okay. >> They would never tell us what they did at church like especially if there was a if they would do the breaking of bread like like just they they never told us and I started like wondering what is happening there like why don’t they tell us like why can’t we know >> but we they just didn’t they just >> So when you went this was like the first time you’d ever even seen what church was like.
        (30:39) >> Yeah. >> So what was church like? Did the women and men sit separate? >> Yes. >> And was there a big choir or nothing like that? >> No, nothing like that. But this wasn’t like that the Yeah. No, I the preachers weren’t sitting at at the front or No, not the singers either or like the song leaders or whatever you would call them.
        (31:01) But I just remember like when they were all kneeling down like >> what what’s happening now? >> Mhm. >> Like that’s how we grew up. Like when at church every like every Sunday you had you have to kneel like at >> for the whole service. >> For prayer? Yes. >> Oh, just for prayer. Okay. >> Yeah. The whole service or Yeah.
        (31:17) I mean the yeah just for prayer they would all have to kneel and pray. >> So your buildings your buildings would be all plain like no stained glass windows and >> Right. >> Yeah. So it’ be a very plain building with like wooden benches maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> And then the singing is no no music is it? >> No.
        (31:38) >> So it’s ac capella singing. >> Yes. >> And it’s all beautiful harmonies isn’t it? They >> they have like a >> fourpart harmony or something. I don’t know how to how to say their singing. It’s just so long. Like one word that can be almost like a minute long till they’re done singing one word. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah, it’s maybe not as nice as you think.
        (31:57) >> Well, I mean I’ve heard online beautiful Menanite singing, you know, like choir pieces and that really really nice. But maybe And so you sang in Latin, right? Sang in um German, right? >> Yeah. And is there a particular sort of way of singing that’s that’s unique to the Menanites when you’re is it almost like a chanting thing? Because I know my son-in-law who was a Hutterite he says that when the Hutterites sing there’s a very specific I’m not musical but the very specific intonation or whatever and and in the
        (32:32) Armit there’s a very specific way of preaching. It’s almost like the preacher goes into a kind of a chanting almost like a translike kind of >> do you remember that? >> So it’s not just like a natural voice where they’re just talking. >> No, >> there’s a whole preaching >> kind of like a little I don’t know how to how to say it, but just different.
        (32:54) >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And were you happy like growing up in in and all of that? >> I guess we didn’t know anything else. We didn’t know any better. Yeah. That’s just how how it was and just how you >> how you live. >> I mean, I can imagine there’s there’s an appeal to just living in this idyllic community and you all go to church and you’re all you’re all one kind of homogeneous.
        (33:18) You all know what each other believes and you meet at the stores and from a in the crazy world in which we live, you can see the appeal of that that it’s like family centered and that you know you don’t even need a police force or anything like that cuz they’re all law-abiding citizens. It’s like it seems like this ideal world from the outside.
        (33:39) Mhm. [laughter] [clears throat] >> So let let’s get on to let’s get on to um your own individual spiritual journey. So K um Carl, you wouldn’t have been baptized as a baby then. >> That’s right. >> Because because that’s been rejected ever since the reformation. >> Yeah. >> But but you would have gone to church.
        (34:04) So, so, so as you as as you grow up, so let’s just think of someone from an evangelical church like a Baptist church or a or or whatever community church from an evangelical point of view. They’re thinking, right, we’re not just bringing you up to go to church. We want to see you come to Christ. We want to see you believe in the Lord Jesus to be born again and then be baptized and then become a member and marry another Christian.
        (34:32) And that’s the kind of evangelical pathway and yeah that’s biblical but from your point of view what’s the aim how does how does a Menanite child look look ahead spiritually what’s kind of expected of you or what did you expect to happen >> well we weren’t or at least I wasn’t familiar with terms like born again and being saved >> but the goal would have been yeah to settle down have a a Christian, what we would call wife and be part of the church to be what they call baptis baptized and and then join the church and >> and be just be faithful, be regular,
        (35:17) >> um live a good life. >> And so how maybe I should have started with the uh more liberal ones, but I’m going from left to right. So, how um how does a Menanite youngster what’s the process for sort of joining the church and becoming a a full-on adult Menanite? >> Well, a baptism would have been expected. So >> late [clears throat] teenage years it’s sort of gets to be that time >> and and just from observation it seems like because you had to to go through that process to be married in the church that many would have just done that been
        (36:03) baptized uh to get married and and get on with life. Um >> so you have to be to get married in a Menanite service. They won’t do it unless you’ve been baptized. That’s what I don’t know if it was taught that way, but that was the impression that I had at least. >> Okay. So, so there’s no such thing as in in your group as an unbaptized married Menanite, >> right? >> Okay.
        (36:25) >> Yeah. >> And so, did you have to prepare for that baptism? Did you have baptism classes or >> Yeah. Well, we would have called them catechism classes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, we we went through that. And is there so Presbyterians would go through the Westminster Confession of Faith which is a catechism.
        (36:44) Did is there a Menanite catechism? >> Yeah. Yeah. So it has articles of faith in there and answers and questions and answers and so that was that had to be gone through. >> So you have to memorize those. >> Um it was encouraged. Okay. >> I didn’t. Uh some of them did that. And then is there a moment when you sit down in front of the church elders and you you you have to answer the questions or is it just like homework? >> No, we were visited by the bishop and a preacher.
        (37:17) Um but that was done in front of the whole church the question and answers that was done in in [clears throat] front of everybody. >> Yeah. >> And do they baptize you when you want to be baptized or is it like once a year they just do everybody together? Yeah, once a year right around Pentecost, I guess. Um, Easter, that time a year. >> Springtime.
        (37:38) >> Yep. >> Okay. So, that’s going to be in a typical church that could be 30, 40 people. >> Oh, no. When I went through, I say five or six. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. So, how do you make make it known that you want to be baptized? Was it does it not work like that? Um, yeah. Well, you would just I I don’t know how I went about it.
        (38:03) Likely just ask one of the preachers. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you mentioned bishop. You mentioned a bishop and you mentioned preachers. >> Mhm. >> That’s that’s just uh something I hadn’t thought about. So, so in your particular group of menite church, is there one bishop over the whole thing? >> Yeah.
        (38:23) Yeah. Over the >> And is anybody above him somewhere? >> No. >> Oh, okay. >> He would be. And how does he get to be bishop? >> He’s voted in. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> By all the churches in the group. >> Yeah. >> And then each church has one preacher. >> Oh, it would vary. It wouldn’t necessarily just be one. It could be one or two. Okay.
        (38:40) >> Depending. Yeah. >> So, what powers does the bishop have? >> He’s sort of I mean, they wouldn’t say it this way, but he’s sort of the ultimate authority if there’s disagreement or he would make that final call. >> Okay. um often they they’d have brotherhood meetings and things would be decisions would be made by just voting and this sort of thing.
        (39:05) But if I guess if it came to it then he would he would have that authority. >> So you were saying that a lot of people tend to get baptized just because they want to get married. >> Yeah. >> So that strikes me as it’s that’s a bit of a giveaway that quite a lot of what goes on is just religious formalities. It’s not really.
        (39:27) So, so going back to reformation times, they’re actually dying. >> They’re being imprisoned. They’re being burnt at the state because of their rebaptism. But wind the clock forward 500 years. Now, it’s oh, I need to get baptized cuz I’m getting married. So, that’s a bit that’s a big shift, right? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Um my my experience wasn’t that I didn’t go through that process to be married.
        (39:49) I was single. >> Okay. >> I mean, my my story includes a lot more than that. And I don’t know how much detail you want to get into, but >> well, I’d like I’d like to I think what we’ll do for the sort of second half, we’ve got another 35 minutes. What I thought we’d do is just look at each individual story. I mean, we can cross we can cross talk as it were.
        (40:13) So, let’s let’s well let let’s give you a rest, Kyle. Let’s turn to you, Tyler. So, did you also come to a point where you wanted to get baptized or you needed to get baptized cuz you’re getting married? >> And I was a whole lot younger when when u my parents my parents made the decision to leave the church. >> Oh. >> So, uh I um wasn’t at that point of being baptized or or I would call now I would call it being sprinkled >> in the Menanites.
        (40:43) You don’t do immersion. >> No. No. >> At all. Not even in the old order, Margaret or they No, >> but surely way back when in the in the in it that was the whole point, right? When when when Menow Simon split off from the Catholic Church and started saying we need to do what the Bible says, it would have been immersion back then.
        (41:04) >> It’s my understanding that it was. Yeah. So back in the UK in in in the uh state church which is the Anglican church I think you call it the Episcopal church here there is a font. So this is a stone um base and then a a small round stone basin on the top and you you hold the baby over and you literally just pour a few drops and it runs off the back of the baby’s head.
        (41:36) So des um when you got baptized Margaret, what did that look like? Was it done in church? Was it done in a font? How did it happen? >> It happened in church like just pouring or sprinkling like it h Zion’s church. >> Okay. You weren’t you weren’t baptized at the old colony church? >> No, I wasn’t baptized at the old colony church. No.
        (41:55) >> Were you baptized at all in the Menanites? >> Not not in the old colony. No. >> In another one? >> In another church? >> Another church. Yeah. Okay. That was here. >> Okay. In Manitoba. >> Yeah. >> So you So on a certain day in the spring, would it have been a group baptism? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So you came to the front of the church, did you kneel down or >> Yeah.
        (42:18) Once it was up to that point, they they tell you one you’re supposed to kneel and then they do the whole group and then the um bishop comes along and reach uh pulls you up or with your hand or Yeah. and then he welcomes you into the to the church. That’s how you be with the baptism then you become a member of the church too or part of their church.
        (42:39) >> So this is a big day cuz the bishops come in. >> Yeah. The bishop. >> So and he >> he has a little jug or something and he >> and he you said I before we came on air you were talking about >> they do it three times in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. Yes. >> Okay. >> So there’s it’s not just a few drops.
        (42:59) It’s quite a >> Yeah. you get a bit wet. >> Yeah, that that’s true. Yes. >> So, when all three of you were baptized and you became members, did you all at that point think now I’m definitely going to heaven? Was it was that how you felt or or or did you even think of it in terms of that? >> That was the impression I when it comes down to the personal level, I didn’t have peace in my soul.
        (43:28) >> Mhm. Of course, you can’t have peace by your own works. We know that from the scriptures, but that that was generally thought that the baptism was sort of salvation, baptism, and reception into the church all in one go. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And that really So do you think the average Menanite, again I don’t want to paint >> all these wonderful people with with with a with a a >> broad stroke >> a broad stroke that’s not fair, but do you think it would be fair to say that within the Menanite community once you’ve been baptized and received into
        (44:08) the church and all of that, the average Menanite would think, I’ve done what’s needed to get to heaven. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Um I was I was never >> You were never baptized? >> Yeah. I I was never baptized in the Menite Church. Okay. >> So, yeah. >> Okay. So, let let’s just delve into that a bit more, especially what you said, Kyle.
        (44:34) I didn’t have peace. So, what what do you mean? So, you’ve done all this. You’ve done what all Menanites do. you’re in this historical group that goes back hundreds of years and yet you still don’t have peace. >> So So what how did that manifest itself? >> Um it really manifested itself before I even went through their baptism.
        (44:58) >> Um so um there was a time in my late teens where I really just rebelled and and I just left >> that alto together. So >> you left the whole Menanite religion. >> Yeah. Okay. And I I Yeah. >> You did what teenagers do. >> I enjoyed the pleasures of sin for a season. >> Sure. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And you had been baptized at that point? >> Not at that point. No.
        (45:24) >> Oh, okay. >> This is re >> Okay. So, you had a rebellious period in your teens. >> Yes. And so when I came through that and the Lord dealt with me in various ways and I I didn’t recognize it as such, >> but looking back now I can see his hand moving in my life. >> I thought I’ve cleaned it up. That’s done.
        (45:49) And so it was it was that decision and then it was the following spring where I was like I’m setting my my mind now to the things of God and and likely people looking on would have thought that that was my conversion. >> Sure. >> Because wow what a change. >> Yep. >> But I I I was not saved at that time. >> So you kind of had had a a personal reformation, >> right? as in you gave up smoking or drinking or whatever it was and you >> so you did good or what is it they say became >> um became religious let’s say >> yeah I cleaned up my life >> you cleaned up yeah
        (46:24) >> as best I could >> yeah so your mom and dad were like thrilled that >> yes of course >> he’s gone through this rebellion now he’s a good manite and >> okay [laughter] but you still didn’t have peace >> no >> okay and then did you think your baptism and membership would bring that peace >> well I I just thought that that was being obedient to God and and sort of I was just doing what I ought to do.
        (46:46) >> Mhm. >> And whether what the outcome of that was, I I I didn’t know what I expected, >> but there was unrest in the soul and that would that would reveal itself again. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, so after that, you then found I’m still the same old Kyle. Is that is that what happened? >> That’s a good way to boil it down. Yeah.
        (47:07) >> I still struggle with sin. I still not sure whether I’m going to heaven. >> Yes. No, no security. >> Okay. >> Um eternity. Obviously, there’s no there’s nothing settled in the life to say, well, now I’m going to heaven. >> What what’s going to get me there? It was just I thought that I was okay because I was doing the things that I was supposed to do or I was taught to do.
        (47:31) So, so, so effectively, you’ve done everything that the Menanite religion has taught you, but you have no personal assurance that your sins are forgiven, that you’re going to heaven. You have no what some Christians call eternal security. You’re not. >> So, then how did you then go about or how did the Lord intervene to to bring you further on? Uh there were some difficult years.
        (48:04) Um I I don’t know how better to put it. Uh I was married. I didn’t have a girlfriend when I was baptized in the Menite church, but shortly after >> um met a young lady. We got married and the whole time doing the things we thought we were supposed to do and yet it seemed like the marriage was not good. Okay. >> In fact, I can say that confidence that it was falling apart really is what it was.
        (48:32) >> And we had young children and and of course some of the old self was rearing its ugly head and this sort of thing. So that’s where I was at obviously in that state. >> How can you have peace with God? >> So you’re looking at you’ve been through everything. Now you’ve got this marriage that’s in difficulties and you’re thinking I need help.
        (48:59) I need I need to find answers. So where did you go looking? Or how did you go looking? >> I should have just read the Bible is what I should have done. Uh it wasn’t my habit. >> I can say even through childhood we knew Bible stories as far as that goes. But a daily reading of the scriptures just was foreign. >> Mhm. And so, um, we had intended, my wife and I, to move to where I was from, which was Steinach.
        (49:25) >> Mhm. >> And somehow I ran out of work there and we were brought to Winkler area where she was from. And I happened to get a job where where there were born again believers. >> And so I say that’s the working of God. running out of work in Steinbeck where we’re like we’re just ready to get married two months away and I’m out of a job and scratching our heads of what what now? But the Lord brought us this way for a purpose.
        (49:57) >> So your first introduction to biblical teaching on salvation and justification by faith was through work work colleagues. >> Yes. And did they just talk to you at work or did they bring you to church services or >> It was it was just through conversation. >> Um, without a doubt they shared a gospel the gospel with me.
        (50:18) >> Mhm. >> Not that I would say that I remember any of it. I think I was just so dark that that >> it didn’t dawn on me. >> Mhm. >> Um maybe to a humorous degree now looking back, but it was a real hindrance to me then. I was asked at work one of the lunch hours if I was saved. >> And I mean, not coming from that sort of wording at all, I said, “Well, I’m baptized.
        (50:49) ” >> And then the man just responded, “That’s not what I asked.” >> He was blunt. >> Yes. [laughter] And that there was an issue at the time. Not that I brought it up to him, but >> yeah, >> that the Lord used that to speak to me greatly. >> So, you were kind of offended at the start, but then when you thought about it, you said >> there’s >> So, then did you go searching in the Bible or was it more and more conversations? >> Probably both.
        (51:18) >> Mhm. I didn’t I still didn’t really dive into the scriptures um until uh one of the preachers in the church we were part of, he sort of challenged the congregation to set social media aside for a month and just read the scriptures. >> Wow. >> And so I I did that. I think he told me afterwards that I I was the only one.
        (51:39) Wow. >> But >> anyways, so so I I think I read through the whole New Testament and again looking back you would think, oh then you knew everything and it >> it was just a veil of darkness. Like I can’t I can’t sit here and say that anything stood out to me. >> Wow. >> I read it but >> there was no bearing or >> So you’ve still got the kind of glasses on of I’ve been baptized.
        (52:09) I’m a church member. You didn’t know what the missing thing was. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, when did the light start to first kind of really penetrate light of the word? >> It was I think the combination of because I had read the New Testament and I and I was still continuing on in the reading and the burden of my own sin.
        (52:36) So where that conviction came from I I mean I can’t tell you a verse that just >> shocked me but it it was the lifestyle where first of all no peace and so this internal struggle that you can’t can’t even explain. >> Mhm. And your conscience too, right? >> Yeah. And so it was it was that it was really the my burden of sin.
        (53:01) And then I take it that through conversation at work, it was made clear to me that there was forgiveness of sin >> through the Lord Jesus Christ and faith in him. And and it’s not even that I would have been a stranger to that sort of wording. >> Mhm. >> I mean, I grew up knowing that the Lord Jesus died on a cross and he he died for sin. Yeah. Pay make a payment for sin.
        (53:29) But uh when the night the night that that I was saved, it the story from Luke 18 was really on my heart where you have this Pharisee and this publican and >> Mhm. >> and now I can say the Pharisee was a picture of me pre-con conversion and I had to take the place of a publican and where the Pharisee was self-centered.
        (53:54) That’s just what I what I knew. I was looking in here for peace. I was looking in here my good works for salvation for peace with God and I wasn’t finding it. >> Mhm. >> And uh the night I was saved that that story was in my head of the publican where he all he did was he did not even lift his eyes up to heaven and he he cried out to God, God be merciful to me a sinner.
        (54:19) >> And so I I did. It was under the burden of sin. It was 2 in the morning maybe. Wow. >> In my living room and I cried out for the Lord to save me and and uh well, I can for sure say he did. We know that the Bible says salvation is of the Lord. >> And uh it was this knowledge that yes, Christ died for sinners.
        (54:43) >> Yeah. >> But I was actually the sinner that Christ died for. Mhm. >> And when you come to that realization, you you can’t help but have peace with God. >> The burden was rolled away. >> So you you you you basically saying so how how long did that take that whole sort of process of where you felt the burden and all that? Few months.
        (55:09) >> Well, the the unrest would have been years. >> Okay. Yeah. Um, but I started that job when I [clears throat] in 2010 and I was saved in 2015. >> Um, so >> likely through conversation and and the scripture reading, right? The the month that I took to read the scriptures would have been >> shortly before I was saved.
        (55:36) And and I obviously come from a group where they don’t teach a day of salvation. So, it’s not like I’ve marked it on a calendar. >> No, >> it’s is very vivid in here. >> You remember it? >> And I don’t have a date for, but it was spring of 2015 is is when the Lord >> So, so you were looking at at getting to heaven as a kind of a process of growing up in the Menanites, eventually getting baptized, becoming a member, and then after that being as faithful as you can till you die, and then but you’re never really sure.
        (56:05) >> You’re never really sure. You’ll find out. >> Yeah. >> After you you pass. The night that you’ve described was a night you realized from from what I can understand, it’s not about what I do. >> It’s about what the Lord Jesus Christ did for me on the cross. He died for sinners. I’m a sinner.
        (56:22) Therefore, that means he died for me. And if he died for me, it’s not up to me. It’s not So then I got so much stuff coming in my head now, but we need to We got about 20 minutes left. >> So, let’s just stop there and and we’ll move it. So, which one of you, Tyler and Marggo, got saved first? >> I think it it would have been me.
        (56:43) [snorts] I think it would have been me. >> Okay. So, let’s let’s uh let’s give you 10 minutes to to sort of tell us that story. So, you you grew up in this nominal Menanite upbringing and you weren’t particularly religious. So, how on earth did you come to the same place that Kyle came to? What was the sort of buildup to that? So, I was still a a youngster at at the time.
        (57:13) So, I’ll make reference to my parents. My my parents were were searching for more truth um from from the Bible than what they were hearing in the church. Uh, I think what Kyle said before about self-centered messages, I think is a good way for describing the messages, but but really no depth in the messages at all.
        (57:40) So, my parents had some uh some Bible studies over the years uh just at at home with with a couple other families just studying the Bible uh which was always good. Um but uh then one time in uh this was in 2002, we uh got a invitation in the mail to some tent meetings uh in in Mitchell, Manitoba, just 20 minutes away from us. And uh well, my parents were searching for something something more truth.
        (58:14) And so then uh well we went we went and uh it was summertime so uh me growing up on a dairy farm milk milking cows that that is um summertime is always a busy time busy time >> on the farm. Uh but uh by and by we went week after week after week and that’s >> so these were like every night. >> Yeah these were every [clears throat] every evening.
        (58:40) Every >> this is in this tent. >> Yeah. first in a uh tent in the in the summer time. >> Couple of guys preaching every night. >> Couple of guys preaching every night. It wasn’t it wasn’t uh with the snow outside and minus 30. No. No. In the summer time this was >> and uh that’s >> so so so they would sing a couple of hymns, preach and and go home.
        (59:01) >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Basically basically that’s what it was. And uh um that’s where my parents first heard about uh salvation, about being born again. And uh so yeah, me being a youngster, just only uh 10 years old, I went along with my parents and I I heard the heard the gospel message and and uh I didn’t get saved at the gospel meetings, but uh that uh following winter, the evangelist came came over to our uh house once a once a week for Bible study.
        (59:44) >> Oh, so one of the guys that preached in the tent. Yeah. >> He then started visiting your home. >> Yeah. He he started visiting our home just for a Bible study just talking over the over the truths in the Bible >> um revealing more stuff to us from God’s word. >> And uh one evening he was uh talking about hell.
        (1:00:07) What what’s hell? >> Oh, hell. And there’s more than two places people go to after the death. Never heard of that. >> Well, no, not not really. I’ll say new in the Menite church, someone dies and they go to heaven. >> Oh, >> they go to heaven. Like everybody everybody goes to heaven. That that that’s how it was.
        (1:00:26) So So yeah, there was there was hell. And then I think what really struck me was that hell, no, I thought hell, you go to hell and then you burn up and that’s it. But but but I found out no hell that’s that’s forever and ever. And even even now when I think about about forever and ever uh with our minds of just yeah we have to be here then and it’s going to be over uh or I was born such a date and I didn’t die.
        (1:00:56) But we don’t we don’t even understand what forever and ever means eternity. Um so that really was uh something for me. what if I go to hell, I’m I’m going to going to burn there forever. And uh I guess that was uh the the night I was saved that I came to to trust trust Jesus Christ as my savior. >> So how old were you then? >> I would have been >> um 11 years of age.
        (1:01:26) >> Oh wow. So So were your mom and dad already saved at that point? My parents were saved at that point for for approximately 6 months. >> Right. So this 10 came, >> they heard the gospel and they got saved during that time or shortly after? >> During during the time. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. Both of them. >> Both of them.
        (1:01:47) >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> And what did you did you see a big change in them? >> Um not not particularly. I wouldn’t say right aways. It was it was a very big thing for my parents from going to this liberal Menite church just knowing about I wouldn’t say that they taught you have to do good works but just do your normal thing go to church be faithful and at the end of life you go to heaven >> and this teaching about you’re a sinner you have to be saved in order to go to heaven that was completely different from what what I grew happen even though
        (1:02:29) >> in fairness uh Tyler where I come from there are millions of people whether it’s Church of England Roman Catholic um Orthodox Methodist um you know there’s an awful lot of people have exactly the same view it’s not like a particularly Menanite thing but it’s the same idea that as long as you’re a good person and you try your best and you go to church you might get to heaven.
        (1:03:00) It’s just a standard package in Christendom. Uh so what you’re describing is is very typical. Um but it’s just fascinating to me that this this this movement that came out of the reformation with all this light and you know salvation, believers baptism, they all been martyed at the stake and now all these years later it’s really become in many ways just like the very system it came out of.
        (1:03:27) as far as offering, you know, obviously Rome is is still very different, but as far as how you get to heaven, the music hasn’t really changed very much. So, so you heard about hell and you were terrified of going there. >> Yeah. >> Forever. >> Forever. [snorts] Um, >> so previously the solution to that would be try harder, be a better manite, go to church, be baptized.
        (1:03:55) So you’re saying the solution is put it put it in your own words. What’s the difference between the track you would have taken to avoid hell before and what what brought you to assurance you’re not going there? >> Um yeah I guess exactly like you said try harder and um what Jesus said from the cross it is finished are two very different things.
        (1:04:21) It’s finished and try harder. Do do more. It’s all done. Those two things when you see the way I think when you see that there is more to do that’s seeing that Jesus is a liar because he said he already said it is finished. Well, what else are we going to do? >> That there’s there’s nothing more to do. It’s already done.
        (1:04:44) >> So So all you have to do is trust Christ. And and we were talking about baptism before. Um, baptism is not about getting to heaven at all. It’s trusting Christ. Then baptism is just identification. And also, baptism doesn’t have to do with being a member at any at any church. Um, baptism isn’t well some um like Kyle was talking about that uh in the Menite church where he was from, baptism is part of membership.
        (1:05:21) But that’s not that’s not what the Bible actually says. Baptism is identification with Jesus Christ. >> Mhm. >> In that symbolic act. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Identification. Identification. That’s what I That’s what I see baptism as. Identification. >> So you mentioned you mentioned what Jesus said on the cross. It is finished.
        (1:05:40) So he’s not >> I’ve often heard it said he didn’t say I’m finished. So he’s not saying this is the end. I’m going to die. He’s saying it. So put that again into your own words. When when when he said it is finished, how did you now understand what does that actually mean? It what’s finished and what does that mean for you? Um that means for me that what God sent his son to this earth to do the all his his responsibilities uh were were done.
        (1:06:19) The his his deed of coming to to being born of a virgin living his life of 33 years but actually what he came to do was to die. Mhm. >> Uh all of that what God had given him his responsibilities here were fully completed in full. >> Mhm. >> So he so in particular in dying he’s he’s not dying for his own sins. He’s bearing he’s bearing Tyler’s sins. Yep.
        (1:06:50) >> And he he he finishes the work of atonement as in he gives his life in a substitutionary way for you. God accepts that. >> Yeah. >> And you’re just coming into the good of it 2,000 years later realizing it’s all been done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wonderful. >> Yeah. That’s a big thing to to realize that it’s all been done.
        (1:07:12) There’s nothing more to do. It’s just calling God a liar. saying saying we have to do something yet in order to merit what he has already done. >> Mhm. So you’re just 11 at that state, did you say? >> Yeah, I was 11 years old at that at that point in time. >> So where were you when he was 11? In Bolivia. >> When was that when you >> in uh 2003? >> Yeah, he was still in Bolivia.
        (1:07:35) >> Wow. >> Yeah, we my parents moved here in 2004. So, how did that how did you go from being a kind of a baptized Menanite to coming to salvation as you understand it now? >> Yeah, your parents were searching. >> Yeah, I guess my parents were already church searching when we were still living in the colony. >> Oh, okay.
        (1:07:55) >> And they were searching already. >> My dad was a school teacher and he started to explain the Bible Bible verses here and there like to the children >> and that was and that created trouble. And he was then they were saying he was scaring the children too much. >> So you so your dad started reading the Bible in English or German? >> German.
        (1:08:16) >> And he started doing that in the home to you kids. >> Yeah. Like at no at home and then at school. >> Oh. As a school teacher. >> Yes. >> Oh. So he started teaching the Bible to the school kids. >> Yes. >> And he got in trouble with the authorities at the school. >> With the bishop and the preachers and deacons, whatever else they have >> because he was scaring them.
        (1:08:37) In what way? >> Like because they were not know they should not know about the Bible. The more you know, the more you’re responsible for it. They would say if you don’t know the Bible, then you just don’t know. >> Wow. >> You don’t have you don’t live it. But then I guess my parents never gave up. They just continued.
        (1:08:55) And then there was more families that then we started to have studied the Bible like on one day and a week like in the evenings and then >> several families. Yeah. >> You’d meet in someone’s home. Yeah. on the colony. >> What What day was that when you would meet? >> On a Wednesday. >> Wednesday evening. >> Yes. >> So, this is amazing, right? This is like the Holy Spirit working in the colony.
        (1:09:15) And even with the pressure from the bishop or whatever, you’re you’re sort of No, we need to get to know the Bible. So, and you got no one to teach you. There’s no evangelist. There’s no gospel tent. >> No. >> And there’s no even a colleague at work. You’re just literally on your own >> looking at the Bible. >> Yes.
        (1:09:32) >> And what were you looking for? I guess for the truth or like for more Yeah, I guess. And then all of us like I don’t know what was it in 2000 maybe and all of a sudden there was just a vehicle of of a man from I think he was from Ontario. Okay. >> He showed up on our yard. >> Wow.
        (1:09:53) And somehow I guess the Holy Spirit had told him this family is searching [laughter] like just like he came and told he and then we had Bible study with them like then he was he was the one that explained and more and more and then that was just created just more and more trouble like >> so now now it’s got word has got out in the community that >> Yeah. Oh yeah.
        (1:10:15) They would if there was a vehicle coming to the colony they would definitely look where where that vehicle was going. >> Oh, I see. So, okay. >> So, you can’t just drive in and out and nobody knows. So, you So, this guy’s coming in from Ontario and everybody’s talking. What’s he here for? What’s he doing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Neighbors have nothing.
        (1:10:33) >> Oh, wow. It’s fascinating, isn’t it? So, so then you >> he tells you what Kyle and Tyler have told us. He tells you the gospel. You need to be saved. There’s a heaven. There’s a hell. >> You can’t get there by your good works. It’s only through Jesus. So, >> so did people start getting saved? >> Yeah, I guess some Yeah, I would say yes.
        (1:10:58) >> But then I guess my parents but they had it like on a on a Thursday if they >> So Wednesday evening was a Bible study, right? >> Yeah, Wednesday evening was a Bible study and then on a Thursday morning or was it even afternoon? And then on a Thursday, the brethren would have the discussion at at their church.
        (1:11:14) Like they would get together and see, okay, what do we do with this man now that’s not obeying our rules? >> Referring to your husband or referring to this guy from Ontario? >> No, referring to my dad. >> Oh, okay. So, the brethren meaning the kind of elders of the church or just the general the elders of the church? >> The elders of the church.
        (1:11:32) And then maybe they’re they’re good people like that. They would look on like they would Yeah. >> The faithful ones. >> The faithful ones. Yeah. There we go. >> So, they’re getting worried about your dad because he’s now getting involved in this. >> Yeah. He’s >> reading the Bible and listening to this. >> He’s not obeying our rules anymore.
        (1:11:47) >> Oh, wow. So, did did he come >> and they would get together, okay, what do we do with this man now? >> And they came to the discussion. Okay, just shunt him or take him kick him out. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And he wasn’t. Then >> and he wasn’t was he saved at that point, you’d add? >> Had he already actually been born again or that they >> I would say yes.
        (1:12:10) >> Okay. Okay. >> But then I guess he then once they do that then you can’t go to church. You can’t hang out with nobody. You can’t go to the store and buy anything. >> So I’ve heard of this. There’s actually a film called The Shunning. I think it’s about the Amit. >> Yes. Yes. >> So what is this shunning? It it it’s like so he’s still living in the Menanite community. Yes.
        (1:12:32) >> But nobody talks to him. Nobody >> No. Nobody talks to him. >> He’s like across the across the other side of the street. >> Yeah. >> Trying to make him feel so excluded that he’ll come back begging for forgiveness. >> Yeah. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. >> Wow. Psychological drama, isn’t it? >> That’s how >> it’s sad.
        (1:12:49) >> But then I guess my parents decided to move out of the colony. >> Okay. >> Start a different colony. But I guess that never really started or we never got >> Yeah. So they wanted to start like a born again colony. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Start a new colony. >> Start a new colony. Yeah. >> Okay.
        (1:13:09) So that didn’t happen, right? >> No. >> So then what sort of age were you at that time when your dad left or got shunned? >> Not exactly. But were you a teenager or early? >> No. Yeah. You were probably around 13. Yeah, probably. Yeah. 13, 12, 13. >> So, what did you think of this? Did you were you thinking, “Dad, you shouldn’t be doing this.
        (1:13:32) It’s making life difficult.” Or were you on board with his >> I guess we were kind of just on board with him and kind of like following along. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Did you have a lot of siblings? >> Yes. >> You’re from a family of eight? >> No. >> Six? >> No, 12 with me. >> Oh, 12. Wow. >> Yeah. My parents had 14. >> So, we had 12 disciples alive. Yeah.
        (1:13:53) [laughter] >> Okay. So then did you get saved around about that time or did it take you much longer? >> No, it took me much longer. Only like once we got here like when I >> Okay. So that was in Bolivia, was it? >> That my parents >> that they they left the colony or was that in? Yes. >> So then when did they make the decision to come up to Canada then? Oh, that that had to do with years already like when they started with that because we because my parents were poor they had to search for something like to get income
        (1:14:29) or >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So eventually you you you moved north you came to Winnipeg or this Manitoba? >> Yeah. >> And did your parents start going to a Bible believing church at that point or >> No, not at first. We were not I guess we’re not so familiar with this year. >> At the first church we were here was an was old colony.
        (1:14:50) >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> So, we just carried on going to the Menanites. >> Yeah. Also to the old colony again. >> Yeah. Because that’s what >> that’s what you knew. >> Yeah. And then >> No, we didn’t feel at home there. And then we went to the Rylander. No, didn’t feel at home there. >> Okay. >> And then there’s the Gort Colony.
        (1:15:08) Then we went there. No, that doesn’t didn’t make us feel at home either. >> Yeah. Then I guess somehow we found the Zion’s church. I guess we stay were there like for numbers of years. >> Also a minionate church, right? >> Also Zion Menonite church. Yes. >> But then when did you personally understand the gospel for yourself? I’m not looking at a date.
        (1:15:31) What what what was the sort of roughly the time? Were you late teens or early 20s or >> I probably in my teens. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And this was this just through your dad telling you the gospel or did you >> No, it was at the Zion’s church. There was a revival meeting revival meetings I would say. >> Yeah. >> So you you were saved in the men in the Menanite church.
        (1:15:53) >> Yes. >> So that that again shows you the spectrum eh? Yeah. You’ve got all the way from liberals or whatever right the way through to you’re hearing the gospel in the Menanite church in the Zion church. So there’s there are evangelical Menanites. >> Is that right? Yeah. >> Yes. >> Um was there any particular Bible verse or any particular story that that made an impression on you like it is finished for you and the good Samaritan? No. No.
        (1:16:21) The Luke 18. Was there any particular verse or >> I I don’t know if I would have a particular >> thing just like what Tyler and Kyle would have. >> Yeah. Yeah. But there came a moment when you knew you were saved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then you guys then met. >> Yeah. Yeah. We met. >> And how how did you meet when you come from completely different backgrounds? >> No. No. Same background.
        (1:16:48) We’re still Menites. Still >> Menites. [laughter] Yeah. But but she’s from Bolivia. You’re from >> Well, yeah. I’m from here Canada all the time. >> Never never moved anywhere. Actually, to tell you the truth, we met online. On online. Okay. >> A very modern way. >> Yeah. Very modern way. Very modern way. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Now, we’re almost out of time.
        (1:17:11) Uh I’d have liked to gone on to so much more. Um let’s just take a couple of minutes because I’d like to ask you a question, Kyle, >> in relation to all of this. So here we have a church come out of Rome and they’re they’re Protestant and they believe in believers baptism and they have services and they sing and you know now we’ve heard all three of you talk about being born again, being saved and you’re sure you’re going to heaven and you’re sure your sins are forgiven.
        (1:17:46) To me, if I was one of your former friends in a Men Menanite church, my first question would be, well, then that means I can just live as I like, you know, so you’re saved. Um, but you know, what if you go out and murder somebody? What if you go out and break the Sabbath? What if you what if you, you know, abuse your wife or something? Can you just still say you’re saved? So, just help me talk that through for a couple of minutes.
        (1:18:14) How would you have you heard that objection? And how would you answer it? >> Yes. Um that is a concern from yeah people that we know. Um so simply just if you boil it down and take what’s left we don’t and we haven’t done good works for salvation. >> We can live in newness of life because of salvation.
        (1:18:44) Um there’s verses that in the scriptures that say, “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.” >> And uh >> maybe I should just >> Yeah. >> read for clarity. Yeah. >> Cuz it cuz the Bible does make all these things clear. >> Sure. [clears throat] So Ephesians 2 and verse 4, but God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened or made us alive together with Christ by grace ye are saved, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in
        (1:19:30) the ages of to come, he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace ye are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, >> which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
        (1:19:59) And so the power to to live like we ought and how the Lord would want us to live is only again in Christ. >> Um and it’s not for our salvation is because >> this God of eternity has made a way for us to be in a relationship with himself. >> Mhm. >> And um Tyler was I was thinking when he was talking about the Lord’s words on the cross, it is finished and what that means.
        (1:20:25) It’s a really great thing and and maybe we can’t fully comprehend it but but our sin had actually separated us from God. >> That’s what the scripture tells us that that there’s this big gap and we in ourselves we can’t bridge that gap. We can’t go to heaven on our own. So what the Lord has done is is sent his man his perfect man from heaven and he bridged that gap and he lived this perfect life that we couldn’t live and because of our sin and and separation from God obviously God has claims >> upon sin and and there’s judgment for
        (1:21:00) sin and he poured out his judgment on his son while he hung on the cross >> and that’s what was finished. God himself is satisfied with the work of Christ. And and I I think I can speak for us three that that we’re satisfied with the work of Christ. >> And I am. >> And and if anyone were to ask me, “How do I know? How do I know I’m going to be in heaven at the life end of life?” It’s only because of Christ.
        (1:21:28) >> It’s all him. And and if I don’t end up in heaven, that means Christ can fail >> and he can’t. And I’m confident in that. So, >> so, so before you were thinking it was kind of faith plus works equals salvation. >> Yes. >> Now your understanding is faith in Christ equals salvation. And the works >> naturally follow.
        (1:21:55) You want to live for the Lord, not to earn salvation, but because you have it. >> That’s right. And if you fail, it affects your communion with the Lord, but it doesn’t affect your union with the Lord. That’s right. You know, you you’re linked to him as a son to a father. >> But confession is not to get saved again or to confession is just simply to maintain that daily relationship with the Lord.
        (1:22:18) >> Yes. >> Thank you for coming on the podcast and uh we’re going to get some more different groups on today, but it’s been wonderful to have you. Thank you so much for making the time. May God bless you all. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. [music]

        The post We Were Raised Mennonite But We Had No Peace With God | Kyle, Tyler & Margaret first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

        1 hr 23 min
      1. Problem: If I Get Saved My Life Will Have To Change | Brody Thibodeau

        Brody Thibodeau had opportunity after opportunity to be saved, but at each point he always found the Devil tempted him away with the thought “If I get saved my life will have to change”. Whether as a sports following teen, or a partying University student, or a busy married man, there was always a battle between carrying on in sin, or repenting and trusting in Christ. But God in grace pursued him and Brody was eventually saved at 23 years of age through reading the book Safety Certainty and Enjoyment (Recorded in Sarnia Gospel Hall, on 14th Feb 2026)

        Get in touch: [email protected], or message us on Facebook.

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        (Recorded at the Sarnia Gospel Hall Conference, Ontario, Canada, May 2025)

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        The post Problem: If I Get Saved My Life Will Have To Change | Brody Thibodeau first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

        20 min
      2. What Is Ahead for Our World? | Michael Penfold

        Michael Penfold gives an outline of the main events that are ahead for the world in biblical prophecy, from the rapture to the eternal state. The chart accompanying this sermon is available below. Readings: Isa 9:6-7, Dan 9:24-27, Eph 3:3-6, 1 Thess 4:13-18, 2 Thess 2:1-12. (Recorded in Straffordville Gospel Hall, ON, Canada, on 8th Jan 2026)

        Click here for the chart in PDF

        Or see below for the chart in JPG:

        Complete series:

          Countercultural Christianity
          Courtship and Dating
          The Principles and Purposes of Marriage
          Confidence in Parenting
          What is Ahead for Our World?

          The post What Is Ahead for Our World? | Michael Penfold first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

          1 hr 15 min
        1. Parenting with Confidence | Michael Penfold

          Michael Penfold preaches on biblical parenting, in contrast to Dr. Benjamin Spock’s “gentle parenting” approach. He outlines 10 powers that all parents have to help them see their children grow up in the ways of the Lord. Reading: Prov 29:15. (Recorded in Straffordville Gospel Hall, ON, Canada, on 7th Jan 2026)

          Complete series:

            Countercultural Christianity
            Courtship and Dating
            The Principles and Purposes of Marriage
            Confidence in Parenting
            What is Ahead for Our World?

            The post Parenting with Confidence | Michael Penfold first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

            1 hr 11 min
          1. The Principles and Purposes of Marriage | Michael Penfold

            After explaining how marriage in Western society has collapsed, Michael Penfold outlines what the Word of God has to say about it. Marriage’s definition, design, devotion, duties, dangers, delight and destiny. Readings: Gen 2:18, 21-24, Gen 3:16, Heb 13:4, Eph 5:22-33. (Recorded in Straffordville Gospel Hall, ON, Canada, on 6th Jan 2026)

            Complete series:

              Countercultural Christianity
              Courtship and Dating
              The Principles and Purposes of Marriage
              Confidence in Parenting
              What is Ahead for Our World?

              The post The Principles and Purposes of Marriage | Michael Penfold first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

              1 hr 1 min
            1. Courtship and Dating | Michael Penfold

              Michael Penfold preaches on the subject of courtship and dating under 7 headings. Desiring the Lord’s will; obeying the Lord’s command; seeking the Lord’s face; waiting the Lord’s time; growing in the Lord’s likeness; trusting the Lord’s guidance and, keeping the Lord’s word. Readings: 1 Cor 7:7-9, 32-34, 2 Cor 6:14, 1 Tim 5:1, Ruth 2:11, 3:10, 18, Prov 31:1, 10, 26-31. (Recorded in Straffordville Gospel Hall, ON, Canada, on 5th Jan 2026)

              Complete series:

                Countercultural Christianity
                Courtship and Dating
                The Principles and Purposes of Marriage
                Confidence in Parenting
                What is Ahead for Our World?

                The post Courtship and Dating | Michael Penfold first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

                56 min
              1. Countercultural Christianity | Michael Penfold

                Michael Penfold preaches on what it means to live as a countercultural Christian. This is what the Bible expects, but what does it look like in the 21st Century – the age of Dawkins, Taylor Swift and Amazon.com? Reading: 1 Cor 1:23-24. (Recorded in Straffordville Gospel Hall, ON, Canada, on 4th Jan 2026)

                Complete series:

                  Countercultural Christianity
                  Courtship and Dating
                  The Principles and Purposes of Marriage
                  Confidence in Parenting
                  What is Ahead for Our World?

                   

                  The post Countercultural Christianity | Michael Penfold first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

                  39 min
                1. The Wrath of the Lamb | Ian Gibson

                  Ian Gibson preaches on the topic of 6th seal in Revelation Ch 6, where there is a “great earthquake” and the Kings of the earth and all others hide in dens and caves from the wrath of the Lamb. Reading Rev 6:12-16. (Recorded in Parkview Street Gospel Hall, Winnipeg, MB, Canada on 20th Oct 2024)

                  Sermon series:

                    The 7-Sealed Scroll
                    The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse
                    The Wrath of the Lamb

                    The post The Wrath of the Lamb | Ian Gibson first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

                    40 min
                  1. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse | Ian Gibson

                    Ian Gibson preaches on the topic of the ‘Four horsemen of the Apocalypse’ and the souls under the altar in Revelation 6, which comprise the first 5 of the 7 seals of judgment. Reading Rev 6:3-11. (Recorded in Parkview Street Gospel Hall, Winnipeg, MB, Canada on 13th Oct 2024)

                    Sermon series:

                      The 7-Sealed Scroll
                      The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse
                      The Wrath of the Lamb

                      The post The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse | Ian Gibson first appeared on Gospel Hall Audio.

                      37 min

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