Haaretz Podcast

Israel’s military achievements in its war with Iran will mean little if they are not “anchored to a diplomatic agreement that will ensure that Iran will not develop nuclear weapons,” Shira Efron, research director of the Israel Policy Forum, said on the Haaretz Podcast. 

Without such a guarantee, she fears, the “fragile cease-fire” in place will not hold and there will be a regression into the “tit-for-tat war of attrition” that the Trump-imposed cease-fire managed to halt. 

Bringing the Iranians back to the negotiating table in good faith, however, she said, will be challenging. From their perspective, after they showed willingness to negotiate, Israel and the United States struck militarily. 

“What incentivizes them to trust the negotiation process again? How do you bring them to the negotiation table and make it clear to them that their situation without a nuclear weapon would be better than having a nuclear weapon? Because they can choose, theoretically, the path of North Korea and say ‘If we had a nuclear weapon, no one would have struck us, so getting one is what we should be doing.’ Our challenge is to make sure that this doesn't happen. And I think it's not going to come only from kinetic strikes. It also has to come from diplomacy.”

The quick resolution to the Iran conflict highlighted the depth of the quagmire of the Gaza war, she noted. 

“The juxtaposition of Gaza and Iran couldn't be more pronounced. You see an adversary that Israel actually feared and prepared for. There were actual goals of war that were defined and articulated, and we knew when to leave on time. In Gaza, we have very unclear objectives of the war like ‘total victory’ and ‘complete elimination’ of Hamas.”

Efron admitted that she had held out a “fantasy” scenario in which there had been a backroom deal that when Donald Trump committed to attacking Iran, he had conditioned it on Israel agreeing to end the Gaza conflict. 

However, she said, based on conversations with Israeli officials, “There are no indications that this condition was there. But there's no question that the president does want to end the war in Gaza. He wants to bring back the hostages.” 

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Israel's decision to attack "regime targets" in Iran like Evin prison, and its open desire to encourage an overthrow of Ayatollah Ali Khameini's government is misguided and potentially dangerous, a top expert on Iran said on the Haaretz Podcast.

"I have serious doubts that something positive will come out of it," said Danny Citrinowicz, a senior researcher at the Institute for National Security Studies' Iran and the Shi'ite Axis Program and a former Iran specialist in Israeli military intelligence.

The Israeli military has had "amazing" operational success against Iranian nuclear and military targets, he said, but expressed worry that there appears to be "no exit strategy that will help us preserve our achievements while ending this war" and that the decision to attack targets like Evin Prison, state television and other non-military locations "have been taken very lightly" and "actually might cause us to erode our achievements against Iran."

He warned that Israel moving to assassinate Khameini would transform the war "from a political to a religious dispute" and "find ourselves in an endless conflict" that would also fail to spark a revolution in Iran and "do far more harm than" good.

Also in this episode, host Allison Kaplan Sommer ventures out of the studio and goes underground into a makeshift tent city in the parking lot of a sprawling mall, where Tel Aviv residents seek nightly protection from Iran's ballistic missiles.

The voices from the encampment under Dizengoff Center represent the millions of Israelis caught without anywhere to securely spend the night under fire.

"It's humid, the floor is rock hard, there's no good circulation, and there's constant activity even when there's no siren," said Jeffrey Lubata as he settled into a tent for the night with his family. But, he noted, it is safe.

This episode was recorded before a cease-fire was announced between Israel and Iran on Tuesday.

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The sweeping military success of the IDF's surprise preemptive strike against Iran's nuclear facilities coupled with the devastating retaliatory ballistic missile strikes have left Israelis "feeling triumphant and scared at the same time," columnist Amir Tibon said on the Haaretz Podcast, adding that "the vast majority of the public in Israel support this war."

Tibon, Haaretz's former diplomatic correspondent, reviewed the progress of the war over the first week with host Allison Kaplan Sommer, along with the ways he sees the conflict potentially playing out.

"The best-case scenario for Israel is either an American attack on the underground Fordow nuclear site or an agreement that causes the Iranians to give up the uranium there," he said. "The worst case scenario is a war of attrition with Iran, in which we continue to bomb them but cannot fully eliminate some of their sites, and they continue to bomb us and wake us up three times every night with ballistic missiles."

In retrospect, Tibon said, "the 10 days before the Israeli strike were a joint American-Israeli trap set for the Iranians" in which U.S. President Donald Trump deceptively declared he was pressuring Israel to stand down in deference to diplomatic efforts.

Also on the podcast, Professor Amit Schejter, one of the tens of thousands of Israelis stranded abroad after the war shut down Israel's airports, discusses the challenges of finding his way back home.

 

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In a special podcast on the new and devastating conflict between Israel and Iran, host Allison Kaplan Sommer talks to Haaretz senior security analyst Amos Harel, who assesses the initial military achievements, the high price of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s decision to launch a preemptive strike on the Islamic Republic and the likelihood of the United States being pulled into the war. 

Harel believes that while, as always, there were political and personal interests behind the premier’s timing of the attack, Israel’s top security chiefs widely viewed it as necessary.

“Not only was Iran on its way to becoming a nuclear power, but there were other parts of its plans in which they were making impressive progress in recent weeks. Their rate of production of ballistic missiles meant that within a few years, the Iranian arsenal that could hit Israel would probably rise to up to 8,000 missiles. The current assessment is around 2,500 missiles. That is quite a difference, and there was a narrow window of opportunity in which Israel had to act.”

Harel was skeptical that a cease-fire was possible any time soon since “not enough blood has been spilled.” He was also doubtful that Israel’s display of force and destruction could push the ideologically driven ayatollahs to the negotiating table to make compromises on nuclear enrichment. 

If the conflict drags on and “becomes a war of attrition that leads nowhere, then Netanyahu will be in deep trouble,” he predicted.

Judy Rowland, a former New Yorker also joined the podcast to share her harrowing experience when an Iranian ballistic missile hit her Tel Aviv apartment building. She lived on the 29th floor on Friday night, which she said, felt reminiscent of the 9/11 attack. 

When the missile struck, she and her family were huddled in their apartment’s safe room. “We thought about the people who were stuck on the higher floors” in the New York towers. 

“When we smelled smoke, I started thinking ‘Will we burn to death? Or will we jump out of the windows?’” 

The parallel arose again as the Rowlands and their neighbors were making their way down the tens of flights of stairs amid the debris seeking safety. “I couldn’t help thinking about all those people in the buildings walking down the stairs. All of us felt it and were saying the same thing. It was a total 9/11 moment. This was our 9/11.”

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Plans by anti-war protesters to disrupt the wedding of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s son Avner have turned the festivities into the focus of controversy in Israel, said Haaretz journalist Rachel Fink, speaking on the Haaretz Podcast. 

The protests reflect an attempt to send a message that holding such a celebration as war continues in Gaza, represents an “unacceptable” level of insensitivity, Fink explained. “At a time when so much of Israel is suffering for so many reasons – the hostages, soldiers who have fallen in the war, how much suffering there is in Gaza right now – it just feels so blatantly inappropriate to have this extravagant over-the-top wedding.”

Still, Fink noted in her conversation with podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer, there are many Israelis in the anti-Netanyahu protest movement who believe that personal celebrations should be off-limits for angry protests and the young couple should not suffer for their parents’ behavior. 

Some are also convinced that if the wedding is disrupted by the protest movement, there will be a backlash of sympathy for the Prime Minister and his family that will “feed into their narrative that we [the protesters] are anarchists, that we have no sense of common decency. This will only play against us” and a truly successful disruption of the Netanyahu wedding “could turn into a disaster for us, not them.”

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Read more:

Too Far? Debate Over Protests at Avner Netanyahu's Wartime Wedding Roils Israelis

From Sept. 2024: Israeli Ministers, Politicians Attend Joyous Wedding as Murdered Hostages Laid to Rest

From March 2023: Sara Netanyahu and the Salon Siege: Life-saving Rescue or the Plot of an ‘Evil Genius’?

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Israel’s new controversial aid initiative in Gaza and its support for the Abu Shabab criminal gang rivaling Hamas share the common goal of helping Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu prolong the war, journalist Nir Hasson said on the Haaretz Podcast. 

“Netanyahu must preserve the radical right-wing fantasy of ethnic cleansing in Gaza for political survival. For this, he needs the war to continue,” said Hasson, who covers the humanitarian toll of the war for Haaretz.

Hasson said that until “we have any other proof” of who is behind the shadowy Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, he regards it as “a proxy of the State of Israel.” Therefore, he said, Israel’s leaders are responsible for the “humiliating” and “dangerous” scenes at GHF aid distribution sites.  

In his conversation with host Allison Kaplan Sommer, Hasson also discussed his Haaretz investigation into the failure of Israel’s evacuation warnings to protect civilians in Gaza. 

“In Gaza, there is nowhere to run. Even the IDF safe zones are not safe,” he said. “Israel has really pushed the civilian population of Gaza to the edge.”

The unprecedented level of destruction and human suffering there, Hasson said, has reached the point where “I can’t find the words anymore to describe the way I feel about what we’re doing in Gaza. And I'm not alone in this feeling. [There are] more and more Israelis around me that think that it's gone too far. 

“If we had the excuse of not taking humanitarian issues into consideration because of the trauma of October 7 – it's about time to start talking about it. …I hope we'll see it more, but it's not going fast enough.”

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Read more from Nir Hasson:

Armed Gaza Militia Rivaling Hamas Hands Out Aid in Israeli-controlled Zone 

Testimonies: IDF Responsible for Lethal Shootings Near U.S.-led Aid Site in Gaza

Hunger Games: Israel Forces Gazans to Choose Between Starvation and Risking Their Lives 

An American Doctor Visited Gaza and Saw the Horror Up Close. Five Cases Haunt Her

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As Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu began facing cross-examination by prosecutors in his criminal trial, the majority of Israelis are much more focused on “life-and-death” issues as the Gaza war wears on, Haaretz columnist and public opinion expert Dahlia Scheindlin said on the Haaretz Podcast. 

The subdued level of public interest “highlights how Israelis have become resigned to the extraordinary situation of their prime minister being on trial for corruption during the longest war and the most devastating war Israel has ever had,” Scheindlin said. 

While polls show a majority of Israelis frustrated and “furious” over that situation, “they feel helpless to do anything about it,” Scheindlin added. 

Deeply upset about the continuing hostage crisis and IDF casualties, and with reservists and their families exhausted, the Israeli public has little patience for courtroom banter regarding issues like the size of a Bugs Bunny doll that a Hollywood tycoon gave to the Netanyahu children in the 1990s which, Scheindlin said, “trivializes the proceedings.”

In her conversation with host Allison Kaplan Sommer, Scheindlin also analyzes the brewing political crisis in Israel as the ultra-Orthodox party Degel HaTorah threatens to bring down the government over its failure to pass a law exempting Haredi men from military service and assesses the odds as to whether the country will soon be heading into new elections. 

“When governments fall in Israel, they usually fall over religion and state issues,” she said. 

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Read more:

'I Did Not Commit a Single Crime': Netanyahu Calls Indictments 'Persecution' on First Day of Cross-examination

Explained: Why Is Benjamin Netanyahu on Trial? 

Yes to Transfer: 82% of Jewish Israelis Back Expelling Gazans

A Grim Poll Showed Most Jewish Israelis Support Expelling Gazans. It's Brutal – and It's True

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Internal political debates between American Jewish organizations have ground to a halt following the violent attacks in Washington and Boulder, with the community united and focused squarely on safety, Haaretz's Washington D.C. correspondent Ben Samuels said on the Haaretz Podcast.

"Acts like this are just so unimpeachably antisemitic that there really is no gray area," he said. "We're seeing a real unanimity from the community. Whatever disagreements they may have with [U.S. President Donald] Trump's crackdown on pro-Palestinian protesters, or on what definition of antisemitism to adopt regarding criticizing Israel – these sort of attacks leave absolutely zero room for debate."

If, after the shootings of two Israeli Embassy employees in Washington D.C. two weeks ago, "panic was at a fever pitch" among American Jews, following the Boulder attack on a march for Israeli hostages "it is a five-alarm fire." Government money for police protection, increased FBI capabilities and better online monitoring are among other demands from American Jewish leaders "that needed to be met yesterday."

In his conversation with podcast host Allison Kaplan Sommer, Samuels also discussed the details of the growing diplomatic chasm between Washington and Jerusalem on the direction and future of the Middle East: in Gaza, Syria, Yemen and – most notably – Trump's apparent determination to hammer out an agreement with Iran over its nuclear capability.

"It's become abundantly clear from Trump that there will be no Israel carve-out in his 'America First' policy," Samuels said.

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Early on, it was clear the Beinin-Atzili family was not a typical hostage family, filmmaker Brandon Kramer, director of the new award-winning documentary “Holding Liat” said on the Haaretz Podcast. 

After learning that his relatives, Liat and Aviv Atzili, had been kidnapped from Kibbutz Nir Oz on October 7 and held hostage by Hamas, and that Liat’s father and son were traveling to Washington, D.C. several weeks later with other Israeli-American hostage families to lobby on behalf of their loved ones, Kramer knew he had to document the visit. 

As he began to film what would become “Holding Liat” – which won Best Documentary upon its debut at the Berlinale Film Festival  and is about to make its U.S. premiere at the Tribeca Film Festival – Kramer noticed that their family’s experience “didn't fit neatly into any box.” 

Yehuda Beinin, Liat’s father, was openly calling for peace and reconciliation, and opposing the forceful military response the Israeli government was planning - from the start. At the same time, Kramer explains, “His grandson Netta – who had barely survived the attacks and was traumatized and very angry – and his other daughter, Tal, didn’t want to speak about politics at all. So within this one family, we saw a microcosm of the debates and fractures, and we felt we had a responsibility to try to make sense of this moment through this one family's lens.”

Also speaking on the podcast, one of the film’s producers, Libby Lenkinski, noted that the authenticity of “Holding Liat” held it apart from the slew of October 7 documentaries designed with a political agenda that comprise “hour-and-a-half long visual op-eds” focused on making either a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian case. 

At the same time, Yehuda, the film’s focus, “is a really great example of something that we see often on the left – a person warning about what might be coming and initially being thought of as alarmist or paranoid, and it turning out to be true.” 

When Yehuda was filmed in the first months of the war, warning that Netanyahu would pursue a brutal and endless war to serve a far-right political agenda, “I don’t think any of us could have imagined the kind of devastation that we would be seeing in Gaza, the endless killing and destruction. I think so many Israelis wanted to believe that this was necessary to bring back the hostages, and now it's just so clear that that was never the point. …Yehuda called out Bibi's bluff early on, and it turned out to be truer than we ever would have wanted to believe.”

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The shootings of Sarah Milgrim and Yaron Lischinsky as they stepped out of an American Jewish Committee event in Washington D.C. was “the realization of our worst fears,” the organization’s CEO, Ted Deutch, said on the Haaretz Podcast. 

In his conversation with host Allison Kaplan Sommer, Deutch said he hoped the tragedy would mark a “turning point” and send a message to world leaders that “this is what happens when you don't speak out, when there isn't moral clarity, when you allow language like ‘globalize the intifada’ and ‘from the river to the sea’. People espousing these things while wearing Palestinian Islamic Jihad headbands and marching the streets in support of Hamas - this is where it can lead.”

In the U.S., Deutch said, he called on politicians and other leaders to “stand up and say Jews should not feel afraid to gather together in a synagogue, community center or anywhere just because of who they are. It's crazy that we've accepted checkpoints and armed guards and metal detectors and tactical SWAT teams standing outside of synagogues on Shabbat as normal. And that's what we need to hear from our leaders. Have we heard enough of that? No.”

Asked about Israeli ministers who pointed fingers of blame for the killing at European leaders supporting sanctions against Israel for atrocities in Gaza, Deutch said “We need the world to stand with us, and I'm not pushing anyone away right now. I want them to try to learn from this, to be our allies and take a firmer stand than they might have previously.”

“The person that I blame for what happened is the shooter,” he added, “but the environment in which it happened? That's something for which I blame the entire world.”

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