Hard Agree

Sumner welcomes legendary comics artist Brian Bolland (the definitive DC Comics artist, the definitive Judge Dredd artist and the co-creator of Camelot 3000 and Batman: The Killing Joke) to Hard Agree to talk about the great British city of Liverpool (and his recent Batman-in-Liverpool cover for Forbidden Planet); Brian’s 40 years creating the definitive versions of Batman, the Green Lantern Corps, The Flash & Wonder Woman for DC Comics; his creation of Camelot 3000 with Mike W Barr; the early days of Judge Dredd for 2000 AD; working with the great Alan Moore and creating their Batman masterwork The Killing Joke (including a discussion of Grant Morrison’s take on the book and Brian’s definitive, inside-track revelation of what really happens at the climax).

Buy Brian’s books:
https://forbiddenplanet.com/catalog/?q=brian%20bolland&page=1

Follow Sumner on Social Media & YouTube:
http://twitter.com/sumnarr
https://www.youtube.com/c/Forbiddenplanetdotcom/videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ/videos

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO
Follow DENIO on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/denioband/
http://soundcloud.com/denioband/
http://twitter.com/denioband/
http://instagram.com/denioband/

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/spoilercountry/
http://twitter.com/spoiler_country
http://instagram.com/spoilercountry/

Kenric Regan:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

John Horsley:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?
https://youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/spoilercountry

HA – Brian Bolland Interview

[00:00:00] Brian Bolland: For this special occasion, I bought

Sumner: this kind of store that’s.

That is, that is brilliant because you can see me and why wouldn’t you want to see me and be

Brian Bolland: the last conversation? You know, I was doing this because there was like a box on the

Sumner: screen that was covering, this was about 12

Brian Bolland: quid in somewhere like that.

Sumner: What do you want to talk about? And no. So, so, so actually my entire setup, it’s brilliant. What you can do in the era of zoom interviews and zoom conversations, because I set up all my lighting, mega my stand for my laptop, very inexpensive, very inexpensively by a couple of online purchases.

So it’s brilliant what you can do. Well, I want to ease into things just by talking for a second about something we’ve talked about a lot recently, which is you’re live, you’re building cover for Batman, the detective one, because [00:01:00] that’s again. Yeah, yeah. Just for me, obviously, you know that thing a mate it’s done, it’s done really well.

It’s really blown up the interest in it is very, very high level. Everybody on two levels comics funds of Batman fans have really. Grasped onto it and think it’s a beautiful piece of work, which it would, which it absolutely is, but it’s also been very much embraced up in Liverpool and that story has had real legs.

So, you know, we’ve had so far this week, the, the books of London instilled, we’ve had a bunch of people you know, ordering the books who are not normally comics purchasers. So, so really it’s achieved apps, everything we hope for it because it’s helped widen out the comics message. You know, beyond our use our usual customers, which is great.

Everybody in Liverpool loves it, the feedback

there, isn’t a single person. That’s right. Yeah. [00:02:00] Certainly not a single person is related to me. Somebody did

Brian Bolland: send me the photograph of the book. We call them books propped up in front of the statue of the Beatles.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. A little Batman figure as well. For sure. No, that was so that was the mighty cat Ash, Catherine Ash, who is actually the the the, the manager of of FP Liverpool.

Oh, yeah. Cat cat took those books out because there’s a brilliant  in what they called go golden hour back at home. On the, on the, on the water side, there’s, there’s a brilliant hour when it’s sunset the those buildings all massively because of the aspect, really catch the sunset and have this beautiful golden glow to them.

And she took, she took the books over at golden hour and took pictures of the covers in front of the three Gates crisis in front of the [00:03:00] Beatles. That was all cat. And when she sent the pictures back the next day, we were like, man, these are really lovely, you know? So, so yeah, no, everybody’s, everybody’s really pleased.

So thanks again for doing that. I don’t actually

Brian Bolland: know these three graces you’re talking about. There is the live of building.

Sumner: Yeah. The other two buildings are that there are three buildings and they’re all, they’re all next to each other. In fact, mate, if you have, you, won’t be my head slightly. Yeah. Can you see that there, that that’s the three graces at nighttime and and so it’s the live a building, it’s the building and it’s the pool of Liverpool building.

So  building ports of Liverpool building. And if you look them up sorts of from an architectural standpoint, they’re all very complimentary and w which

Brian Bolland: is the one that has the Tate in

Sumner: it. Now that’s his next question, mate? Yeah, that’s, that’s absolutely right. Tate Liverpool is in a [00:04:00] slightly different spot.

Yeah, that, that

Brian Bolland: is, I remember seeing the the statue of Jerry, is it Jerry Mazda as a step statue or one of the other.

Sumner: Famous rockers. Yeah. No, the  Liverpool is at the Albert dock, which is probably where you saw it. Now I’m going to tell you an anecdote about Jerry, Jerry Marsden, who left his recently, but yeah, but I knew.

Jerry Morrison’s bank manager for Leila of all things. Yeah. And the reason I know Jerry Mazda’s bank managers cause it’s my dad. So my dad was Jerry and I used to, I used to meet Joe Miles in when I was a kid, my dad had this banking. It was he worked for the Midland bank. He worked for the middle bank at Kirkdale and Kirkdale is, is, is slightly after the town center.

It’s like on the approach road, up to where the football stadium and this, this building is still there to this day. It’s not a bank anymore, but it was very imposing kind of granite building in the middle of what your traffic [00:05:00] islands on. For some reason, it used to have a lots of like furniture accounts there.

And he used to have a lots of music accounts as well. So it, my dad was Jerry Moses, but manager. He was also at the mountain and shifted the for the Epstein family. Brian Epstein. The beats was manager. So he didn’t work with him when Brian was still alive, but he used to work regular army used to work a lot with Clive who was Brian’s younger brother and passed long passed away now, but my dad’s still here alive and kicking.

But, but he used to work with all of that, the NAMS business, the Beatles publishing stuff and all that kind of, all that kind of thing. Yep. It’s a small world. It’s a small world after all, you know? So did Jerry have any money? Did he have much money? Oh yeah. He had quite a lot of money. Yeah. And up basically there’s a couple of things because of course he didn’t have the publishing royalties on, on on you’ll never walk alone, which he famously sounded.

It was just a huge hit. And it was also adopted as the, as the Anthem of Liverpool [00:06:00] football club. And it is a massive song because it gets song several times a week cause the footsie. But of course he didn’t have that. So song from carousel by Rogers and Hammerstein. And so yeah, absolutely. It gets, I think one of the key characters sings, it might well be Billy Bigelow, the key character in carousel sings.

I don’t know it. And it’s very interesting musical carousel. It’s very McCobb. And it’s about a guy who dies in about him then watching his family from the afterlife basically. Is that sad? It’s not, it’s an American musical. Is that true musical? Yeah. It’s what, like one of those American Midwestern musicals a bit like Oklahoma was, which is by the same guys actually.

But it’s also got very famous song, which is basically interpreted by a Frank Sinatra. It’s good. And McCray who plays lead character in the movie, not Sinatra and good, and McCray’s big strapping guide, but but the song is called soliloquy. And if you ever hear Sinatra’s verse and it’s like nine minutes long, You know, it’s pretty amazing wildly off piece here, mate.

So

[00:07:00] we’ve got to get your subjects. And also I, I I’ve I’ve I don’t want to take a hammering for doing 90% of the talking during a Brian bullish. And I come across as a Liverpool sort of publicity to live a poop. Well, you know, a lifelong Liverpool publicity campaign, but to, to really very quick answer your question about about Jerry.

Yeah, he did. He did right. Very cross the mercy, which is a big, best song, of course. And then he spent the last 30 years of his career. He kept on touring and he regularly toured Australia once a year. And I know that that was very lucrative for him. So, you know, he was definitely, he was definitely in good shape.

You know, we of course

Brian Bolland: did the ferry across the murders. I mean, I’ve only ever once in my entire life and it was just in the last three or four years. And of course we had to do the ferry and we got that tombs. We got that pipe that as,

[00:08:00] Sumner: you know, as we’re going along. Yeah. It’s, it’s quite beautiful though.

You got it on a nice day. It’s a lovely thing to do, but

Brian Bolland: are you sure there isn’t another statue of another, yeah,

Sumner: I know exactly who you’re talking about. I’m not the one that the other person at the, yeah, I’ll tell you it was a Billy fury.

Brian Bolland: Billy fury. I knew there was another guy there. Cause that was on the way between the Tate and the live of building.

Most of the Southern stature I did.

Sumner: Yeah. Billy filler and check this out when Billy fury was discovered, he was actually, he was actually working on the ferry. He was yeah, he was. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, so he’s got a, he was, but he was discovered when he was literally working on the ferry.

He was one of the, do you know his real name? We’ll look it up. Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to look at it. What I’m looking at while we’re took. It’s one of those things I do note, but I’m afraid that the the rusted door of memory, [00:09:00] even though it’s there in my memory, it’s like the hinges rusted real names will not fury

Brian Bolland: and wild

Sumner: Marty Wilder, Billy fury, Georgie fame.

I do know. Do you know Georgie fames off the top of my head? His real real name was Clive. Yeah. It’s I say it, I do know it, but again, it was

really any of them still alive. CLA Georgie fame is, is still alive and is still performing and is still brilliant. He is amazing. Yeah.

Brian Bolland: Audience for this video is what I’m assuming is it’s not people over 70. And it’s not just for people who live in

Sumner: Liverpool. No, it isn’t. That is so, so, so quick. Two, two famous Clive Powell and and he still performs any plays at Ronnie Scott’s once a year.

[00:10:00] I’m a member at Ronnie Scott’s by the way, Brian. So when the pandemic’s over you’ve if you fancy going to see him at Ronnie Scott’s, it will be my pleasure. See Georgie fame when he does his annual residency. Is he a jazzy? Is he a

Brian Bolland: kind

Sumner: of a Jasmine heavily jazz and R and B influence? He does a lot of jazz, but it’s quite sort of R and B, but he’s in great voices and there’s voices identical to it.

Yeah. So I’ve got my computer glasses on regular

Brian Bolland: glasses. Oh, that’s better. I can see

Sumner: you’ll read glassing. I’ll also tell you that Billy fury, his real name was Ronald . Yeah.

Brian Bolland: Now what about

Sumner: covering something that people under 17 and on that very note, I’m going to back us into real conversation. That people are tuned in to listen, to tune in, to listen to an hour with Brian bollard. I’ve literally got 15 minutes on a, on 1960s music [00:11:00] and Liverpool. So sorry about that folks.

But I am of course, here with one of my all time favorite artists. I don’t wish to embarrass you Brian, but, but it’s a fact one of my two or three or some favorite artists, not an example. One of the greatest British artists of all time, one of the greatest comic book artists of all time, none other than Mr.

Brian Bolland. How are you today, Brian? Well, I’m doing very

Brian Bolland: well in it. So again, a pleasure to see you and to

Sumner: talk endlessly about Liverpool. Absolutely. Yeah, I guess this is what we do from now on now. Now that I’ve transformed you into a, a great advocates of Liverpool and, and be a man who is almost emblematic of comics and Liverpool.

The file. The file is like, I’ll take that word. Scouse file. Maybe file. Yeah, I won’t get back into my, I did take a bit of a hammering on certain areas of social media, but the amount of time in our interview, I ended up talking about the recipe.

[00:12:00] I’m not going to do that this time, but she’ll have to tell you all about a great length, all about Boston links and the fans when we’re done, we’ll have another

special

Brian Bolland: video

Sumner: call all about that. I love it. I am actually, I’m actually very interested in that and would love to hear about it. So, so what I’d like to do is I’d like to start by talking a bit about your career and then really focusing on some of the things that you yourself are passionate about as pertains to that career.

You’ve had talked about perhaps some artists and other than yourself, but what we taught a lot of late about different aspects of your career journal, my day job with the bin planet TV. But one of the things that I, we’ve not got to cover off. And I would like to ask you about is, is when you made your transition from the UK, from, from illustrating for 2008 day and whatnot, and you first went over and started [00:13:00] working for DC, can you tell me about the Genesis of Camelot 3000?

Brian Bolland: Oh, well, I don’t have to go through how I made the leap into American comics by that green lantern, those few green light. I

Sumner: think we’ve covered that. We definitely talked about that when we had, with that, there’s an interview which are linked to, for anybody listening to this, which is a chat that I had with both Brian and with Dave Gibbons last summer for forbidden planet CVN.

I’ll put that in the show notes to this episode. So if anybody’s interested in that story can go and check that out. Well, I

Brian Bolland: mean, back at the time I needed. You know, full-time employment. I needed regular work and my heart belong to DC comics. It has to, it has to be said to my, my first comics experience experiences were buying early, well, not early DC comics cause they’d been going since the thirties, but for me, the earliest was in [00:14:00] 61 with several of the mystery titles and Greenland and atom and things of that sort.

And I loved it. I had a great collection of DC comics and

Sumner: the American

Brian Bolland: seemed like a very long way away and all of those wonderful stars of the American comics scene, you know, Gil Kane, you know, Julius Schwartz, all. Ross Andrew and Mike Esposito, all of those artists that I loved it was absolutely wonderful to go and actually be in their presence, you know, sort of feel very honored to be with these people.

Who’ve been doing this since the Dawn of time. So then to be given a proper gig, a full-time project with DC was a big step for me. And it did mean full-time serious hard employment for me. I had to work many hours to get that. I forgot how many pages per issue, but it was a 12 issue. Many suits were getting on front 300 pages of that series.

Now, what, [00:15:00] what do you really need to know about it? We had to determine it might

Sumner: bar I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you a jumping off point for me about this. I was, I was a big fan of Camelot 3000 and I I’ve, I’ve got, I’ve got all the issues of it. Or I did until I recently sold my collection on a cancer, my mum or dad downsizing, but was a crisis that I controlled.

So, so happy with it. So, so, but I seem to remember reading at the time that you had, did some experimentation with how you actually illustrated Camelot 3000. And I remember, and this isn’t a story I might’ve read 25, 30 years ago. Something about you experimented with a different kind of pen that might’ve enabled you to do essentially a combined version of pencils and inks.

Is that right? Well, I mean with issue number

Brian Bolland: two yeah, I, I mean, this was the first time really I had. Right regularly. You’ve been just the penciler and somebody else will be [00:16:00] inking the whole thing. And I was never really very happy with that. There were times, and back in the 2000 ID days, when, because of time pressures, people, friends of mine, Dave givens, Gary leech, various people inked my judge Dredd work.

But the idea of somebody regularly in my incur was something. I was a little bit hard for me to swallow, but there was no way I was going to get that many, that many pages drawn every month. So, To begin with. They gave me a choice of two, a two, Inc. As Mike DeCarlo was one of them actually, no, I can’t even remember what he did.

And if you’re watching this mic, I apologize. And Bruce Patterson was another guy and we chose Bruce to be the regular incur for the books. But he, for some reason, he only got through the first five issues. And when, by the time number six came along, we were in a bit [00:17:00] of a crisis. And the story is that those are people inked.

Issue number six, including Dick GL, Donna, who was quite an important figure at DC comics. I’ve heard stories that all kinds of people link that issue. You know, I think the cleaner had a go at some of them,

Sumner: but it looked, or I

Brian Bolland: wasn’t one of best, but by the time we got to number seven, we took on Terry Austin,

Sumner: the terrific,

Brian Bolland: terrific artist who I think he’d been working on X-Men prior to that, he had a very chiseled style, which was it. Wasn’t my style. My my lines are very scalloped. I come to a point this, again, very technical, but his,

Sumner: People are interested in with you, but

Brian Bolland: it’s a very much chisel.

He said, I used to ink with a brush. So at all times I could. Draw a line, which came to a point or point actually, and then [00:18:00] swelled his lines were done with a pen of some sort. I’ve never really understood this pens. They use Crow Quill or something like that. So the signs were quite Sisley, but I was

Sumner: looking at one

Brian Bolland: of the recent additions of the whole thing.

And they’re so chunky. Yeah. But

Sumner: I don’t lose that. I didn’t, anything I draw on

Brian Bolland: was lost at all. It was enhanced by his really chunky. I, in fact, there’s a lot of energy and that’s stuff, you know, between me penciling and inking that I really probably wouldn’t

Sumner: be able to do today. Ah, that, that that’s so interesting.

I always thought I always enjoyed his work and thought that he I thought he also, I, cause I. I Y remember about Camelot 3000 particulars. I never really saw the invasive effect of other inkers working on your pencil. Isn’t it, the time perhaps knowing less about, you know, artwork than I do now, and not from the sense that I’m, I, [00:19:00] myself, I’m an artist.

Of course, I’m a journalist, as you know, but I do love comics and read many of them. It seemed to me that looking at it, I thought that was something to do with the fact that your pencils are so tight and I’m not in, you know, so detailed in the first place that you’re not really giving the ink as much of a margin to interpret your work.

I

Brian Bolland: pencil them to death. You know, those, the reason why the last two issues was so ridiculously late was because I, I was penciling, you know, every ink line was there in pencil and I’m left handed. So the paroling has had to somehow turn the page over and, and draw all those lines as if they were left handed.

Yeah, you’re right. It wasn’t very much room for them to to go wrong really.

Sumner: But I mean, that that’s, that is very interesting to me because Austin of course had a great partnership with John Byrne on the X-Men for a long period of time. And and, and I remember when Byrne flipped from doing X men to then writing [00:20:00] and doing the art for fantastic four.

And at that that’s the point at which burns started thinking himself. I was actually preferred Berman using by Terry Austin and when burn actually his own work, you know, it’s suddenly, there’s a change in the quality of it. Whereas, whereas Austen’s work on, you reminded me, I’m going to name a completely different artists now completely different thinker, but reminded me of.

When you look at your pencils on Camelot 3000, and then you look at like your pencils ink by Terry, and then you look at say Kirby on the new, on the later new gods. And then you see Kirby ink by Mike Royer does he’s he, there’s no real difference. So Roy is like, really, you know, really respecting the spirit of Kirby.

There’s no interpretation that it’s just absolute loyalism it seems to me. And that’s the kind of the, that that’s very much, it seems the relationship that Terry had with your pencils. Oh, I think so. Yeah. I don’t

Brian Bolland: really think, I think [00:21:00] I have room to improvise. You know, there were bits where I sort of left it out and said, Terry, put it, fill in that bit the way you like, you know, even, even most of the time pencil is supposed to end up black.

They leave it white. But I think if I remember correctly, I actually sort of filled the whole thing with pencil myself. So, yeah, I think he was very respectful. I think the whole thing went well. Yeah. That’s for curb and ask for Kirby. I mean, he’s such a stylist. Yeah. I mean, I suppose it’d been Nicoletta or somebody like that, Tim, you’d be able to

Sumner: tell.

Yeah. Well, I think Collette is the most famous example of somebody who’s considered to sort of interfered with Kirby’s intent for want of a better description. Although I always heard that Kirby himself didn’t mind collectors, inks that much, that it was less of a Kirby issue than it was other people.

Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Brian Bolland: I was always, I was a huge Gil Cain fan [00:22:00] as a 10 year old, 11 year old. He was the artist. I was, I could, I could provide samples of my attempts to draw like Gil. Okay. And you know, those funny kind of, and I was able to, through the early sixties, through to the late sixties, I was able to see his.

Metamorphosis, almost from 30 naturalistic artists to almost like a Marvel style exaggerator of everything, you know, all that’s sort of distorted for short limbs, he

Sumner: used to draw,

Brian Bolland: And he always had Murphy Anderson. Well, he often had Murphy Anderson has hit his ink. Occasionally we haven’t felt it we’ll say green, who I was also a fan of Sid green was an artist.

He used to draw for Julius Schwartz in strange adventures. In the fifties, he drew pencil, the nature’s own work. And he always had a very strange barrel chested figures,

but his his thinking, so it was various, I don’t know quite what [00:23:00] tool he is, but I went through a phase early on in my teens when I discovered repeater groves of doing lots of little scratchy little lines. And he did a few green lantern.

Sumner: Can I edit this bit out? Yeah, of course, mate. No, I get it. I’m only going to be using the audio rather than the video, so you’re fine. You’re fine to get a glass of water or whatever. Yeah.

Brian Bolland: I think it’ll go away.

Sumner: We’ll just do it

in the wrong direction. Yep. I know exactly what that’s like. Brian,

I always

Brian Bolland: hate doing that in cinema.

Sumner: Yeah. It’s the worst [00:24:00] you sit there trying to suppress it and you can’t and it, and it just makes things worse. Yeah, absolutely. I sort of

Brian Bolland: go in the cinema or not, I think, Oh God, am I going to be able to get through this without having a coffee? Anyway, what I was saying was Sid green did ink to fuel, well, in particular, the covers on Gil Kane on green lantern.

Only recently I was reading how somebody who was complaining about his style of he used to use toothbrush, you know, the stipple effect. I don’t know whether a lot of other artists did that, but I had a period when I tried the, the stipple effect, you know, you’ve got your load load onto your toothbrush and just splash it on the page and you’d get stars or something like that.

Yeah. I like

Sumner: sit Green’s work.

Brian Bolland: I was just going to go on to site eventually Gil Kane. He was obviously fast enough that he could, he could then say, look, I don’t really need an incur. [00:25:00] And his work was.

Sumner: To my

Brian Bolland: view after seeing homie by Murphy Anderson, who was a very, who was a very smooth inker Gil Kane’s penciling and inking in his own work liberal was scratchy to me.

Sumner: I couldn’t agree more. And I think I think for me, Murphy Anderson had, had very much had a very strong identity. So, somebody who doesn’t have a star like case, but I would say the same thing about whose work I also absolute blood is Wally worth. And while he would Murphy Anderson, whoever they, they, whoever they ink.

They would say, you can tell it worked on the page. Right. And I think that Kurt’s one’s art work never looked better than when Murphy Anderson was his incur. So that early seventies, Danielle Neil’s scripted sequence in Superman, kryptonite Nevermore, the weird kind of sand DAPL gang group Superman.

Yeah, that, that whole thing was when Clark camp becomes a a TV anchor. I [00:26:00] just think Superman Kurt’s one, Superman never looked better than it did in that. I love, I

Brian Bolland: love Kurt’s ones on Jimmy Olsen. I

Sumner: really

Brian Bolland: liked his non-super hero stuff. So w when they were just standing around in their suits with Perry white in the office and Lois lane was there.

If he hadn’t

Sumner: had to draw.

Brian Bolland: Guys in skin, tight suits, I’m sure Curt Swan would have been a terrific like newspaper

Sumner: artist 1000%. In fact, you could say he might be too much. He missed his vocation because I think that’s a very good point. I, his, his to this day, when I think daily planet, I think the way that Curt Swan drew the Perry whites in my mind, his guts, one’s Perry white.

And as you say, it’s his lowest lane. It’s, it’s his Jimmy Olsen and it’s his car Kent w and I, I think it’s such a good point because I actually was found Curt one Superman to be relatively static [00:27:00] looking you

Brian Bolland: see, I sold my DC collection a good few years ago, but before doing so I scanned two and a half thousand covers.

Wow. So that I can look at them instantly. I was looking through a whole load. Cause you know, obviously on Facebook, there’s a sort of silver age comic fans group. And somebody was putting on this is my Jimmy Olsen collection, or this is my action comics. I’m looking at them There’s not a lot of action on those covers.

Is there, there are situations going on. There’s one where Jimmy Olsen is turning into a porcupine or something like that. There isn’t, there is none of this kind of soccer, soccer, soccer in the eye kind of action that you get from say a Kirby cup or a Marvel cover at all. It was just, you know, people standing in line.

Wait to see he was going to get to kiss Superman and that sort of

Sumner: thing. Oh yeah. Ma I, yeah, it’s great. But [00:28:00] it absolutely. The Superman you’ve hit the nail on the head. They super, I’m probably from the era of  TV show, almost really until a burn kind of revived it all. It’s very static for that 25 year period.

You see? I don’t mind that cause

Brian Bolland: because my, to be quite honestly, my work is static. I mean, one of my great failings or strengths, depending on which way you look at it is it is, I tend not to adore action. I mean, I’ll get into that, but yeah. I do find that most of my people are not really moving

Sumner: very much.

No, it’s interesting. It’s interesting to hear you say that. And I would like to get into that in a second. I’m just going to segue into talking a little bit more about guilt game for a second, because there’s a particular Cain run. I wonder if you’ve if you’ve ever seen and. You know that DC in the late sixties produced a very short run of captain action [00:29:00] comics, which it took me years to figure out on the backend what the concept of captain action was.

And I, at the time didn’t have being English didn’t have any real appreciation of the fact that he’s essentially a, you know, kind of action, man, that you could dress up in different.

Brian Bolland: Remember it didn’t have

Sumner: captains. Yeah. I had a great outfit that was designed that was designed by Hollywood. I think I had a great look to him, but but the.

But the concept of the toy is that you could dress them as a variety of other famous comic book and cartoon characters. So you get, you know, you get a Superman outfit even going to eat, but some really interesting ones, like you could get a Sergeant fury outfit for captain action, stuff like that. But of course the concept of the book is that finds a bunch of, kind of a.

Super charged. Doubloons all of which give him different powers depending upon what he’s got in his pocket at any [00:30:00] one time. And the book was written, I think, but by Jim shooter, but the reason I bring it up, it was, it was, yeah, it was, it was an early and very young Jim sheets. It was nearly four eight into into licensed comics for DC.

The guy who owns captain action. Now one of the two guys who owns Capitol action now is is a mate of mine called that Cato runs the, a, there is a professor if ethic, university, he runs the Ethicon stuff like that. It’s a great bloke, but the reason I’m mentioning this is that from issue three onwards, Gil Kane took over as the penciler.

I think it is. Yes. Yeah. There’s the villain in captain action is, is is Dr. Evil under, there’s a very interesting kind of family element captain action because his sidekick action boys, his actual son, not his water, his adopted son, it’s his actual son and his late wife is figures in parts of the story.

And Dr. Evil is his father-in-law and you know, so it’s got a level of family that you cause nearly [00:31:00] everybody in comics up to that point was like an orphan. Or if they had a teenage sidekick, there’d be the award. They wouldn’t ever actually be their biological son. Cut production kind of changed all that.

But one thing that really struck me about that fight about Tyrone is the fifth issue. Is just amazing to look at. And this was DC. It was that it was, it was, it was, it was DC. And can you think of what year we’re at? Almost 68 or 69, I think. And then the final issue is basically cut production and counts as a kind of schizophrenia dictator who on one side of his personality is a Crusader for good.

On the other side, is this Oswald Mosley type figure. But that one issue it’s Gil Kane inked by Wally wood. And when I saw that, it just completely blew my mind because I thought. What you would have this trick somehow of, even though he couldn’t people you think, well, his style’s not at all [00:32:00] complimentary and yet the work he did, the one you saw, it would just look amazing.

This one issue that that’s the only example I’ve seen of Kane and by Hollywood, even if there are others, I’ve not seen it, but I just think it looks amazing. And it’s like, whenever I would dip coat, he, that Ditko would combination looked incredible as well, even though it’s very diff different from how Dick can normally looks.

I know that Cole was a big fan of working with word. And I just wondered if you you’d have you encountered that would calm. Those would combinations yourself. Did what did would draw for Warren much? Do you think he did at one point? Yes, I think that’s correct.

Brian Bolland: I mean, I had a decent collection of creepiest in areas and there were a lot of artists and now I don’t have them anymore, so I couldn’t look up and see whether, while he would was in there.

But Well, I’ve got in my cupboard over there.

Sumner: I’ve got

Brian Bolland: a, quite a few underground sixties, underground comics, and I don’t even know [00:33:00] slow death or something like that. Or big city comics. I think it was cool. I’ve got no, I should’ve had it prepared. Really. It’s got some body wood in it and it was really poor.

Sumner: A lot of big boobs, pornographic

Brian Bolland: stuff is being done by a lot of those RCC, even Neal Adams did quite a bit of it. And I think we need to throw, throw some up on the screen.

Sumner: Yeah, no, that, that, that, that, that, that it on. If we do a YouTube person, this that’s exactly what I’ll do. I think, I think you’re actually, I think you’re onto something there because because wood did a lot of stuff.

If I recall, he did quite a lot of Playboy stuff. Like he does. He do like little Annie Fanny or something like that for Playboy. I think, you know, wasn’t that wrong? Oh, no, that was

Brian Bolland: a wicked one to Ron Appleton.

Sumner: I, yeah, I’m, I’m getting, I’m getting, I’m getting mixed up though. I’m talking about Rossi. Yeah. So it was re [00:34:00] it, Russ Heath did it for a bit.

Didn’t they? Cause have you ever heard that story about receive hit some deadline and and, and basically the Haffner half gets him over to the Playboy mansion. Right. And, and he’s got to do about five days of concentrated work. So they settlement put a room at the Playboy mansion when he finishes the work.

He realizes that he’s a single guy at the time nobody’s telling him to leave. And it’s like basically parties with Playboy bunnies every night and, and food on tap 24 seven. So he just stayed there and worked from the Playboy mansion. And it wasn’t, he was there for a considerable period of time. It’s like three months or something.

When finally, you know, at some point and half, no one of his OPOs kind of go say, must what are you, what are you doing here? He goes, Oh, you know, I’ll, I, you know, I’ll move them one. I worked on that and they’re like, What have you been here ever since? And he was like, yeah. And at that point he was politely asked to leave, but not accurate, [00:35:00] apparently got full value out of everything that was at the time from living in the paper.

That’s I’m afraid. I don’t think I’ve got anything close to that. So, so Brian, when you went from Camelot, so once Camelot 3000 was complete how’s time elapsed between Camelot 3000 and the killing joke.

Brian Bolland: What are the lapse into pre scripted stories? Because I’ve told these stories a few times after, after mom.

Okay. I’ll throw in a few extra details. Maybe. We give them Take Evans and Kevin O’Neill, Robin Smith and me, and one or two others, usually monthly in pubs and some such place isn’t that and have a meal together. And Dave showed us page by page some of the work he was doing on Watchmen, which was fantastic.

And you could tell it was going to be absolutely marvelous and something [00:36:00] really special

Sumner: when he was excited

Brian Bolland: about it. But when I was finished on Camelot, which was before a little bit before then it had done reasonably well and they out of the blue they just sent me a bonus of a little bit of money.

And I, I spend that on go to China, my wife and I went to had a month or so in China and China and places like that. And coming back, I know I really needed to get back to work. And so I just rang up Dick Giordano and said, look And you might be able to recite this with me because I’ve told him yeah.

So I do now. And he said, when you can do anything you like and you know, Alamo was you know, one of the 2008 D crap. And he was clearly a very, very, he was the big thing now, of course, because Watchmen was doing so well and he was my pal. And so I said, I’d like to draw a Batman graphic novel, and I’d love, love it if Alan could Bryce it.

And so they can’t have that. And he said, [00:37:00] yes. Now I, I have heard stories that the killing joke, which comes under a bit of criticism for various reasons from people. Was it really just some Batman annual story that Alan had got up his sleeve anyway, whether that’s true, I don’t know, but the whole point, the whole Genesis of the killing joke was made.

Being told I could do anything I wanted and I could choose who to write it. Fairly, so enough to returning after a month away. I I got the go ahead for that. And I spoke to Alan on the phone and Alan said, what sort of thing they have in mind. And I liked the idea of it being a joker. It focused on the joker more than Batman, because he’s more the sort of couch I can get my teeth into.

He’s got, he’s got, almost got more dimension to him, Batman. I mean, Batman is almost like this sort of, sort of shadow

Sumner: on the wall. I don’t really feel a need to know a lot about

Brian Bolland: Batman. He’s just this kind [00:38:00] of, sort of. Well, there’s not a vampire. Exactly, but I mean, he’s, he’s a sort of a cloaked, mysterious figure.

Whereas the joker, I think there’s more something to explore there. I mean, not only that, but there’s something more to draw. There are many more poses you put him in. He’s very, he’s very much a theatrical character, as I think is the penguin. I love drawing the penguin as well. I’ve said this before, but those two characters they’re sort of almost

Sumner: Sort of pre,

Brian Bolland: You know, silent movie.

Sumner: Yes, of course. A lot more to draw

Brian Bolland: there. So I think your question was, how long was it before we got onto

Sumner: that and blah, blah, blah. The reason I asked that is purely, so we could evolve into, into talking about what you’re mentioning now, and I think it is very interesting. Your take on those characters.

I think. I think what you’ve just said. I’ve I I’m, I’m sure you’ve said it before. Well, I’ve not read, I’ve not read that before. I just said, I think it’s very interesting. [00:39:00] The fact that that’s part of your inspiration for your take on the Batman villains, other the great silent movie era villains that would turn up in the Buster Keaton movies in the, in the child chapter movies and the silent Laurel and Hardy, you know, so you get these, get those, those very cause.

Pete is that this would cast, but nowadays actors are often quite homogenized. It all kind of look like each other all were incredibly good looking, very charismatic. But back then it was, it was much more like, you know, villains where, where we’re telegraphing the villainy would that these Rondo Hatton, for example, who, by the way, mate, one of my first references, one of the first times I ever saw Rondo Hatton was when you drew him.

And judge dread. And I, you know, I was a kid at the time when I read that, I knew because of the context that it had to be a reference to some things, [00:40:00] I didn’t know what it was. And it took me a while to figure out before I actually, along with collecting these

Brian Bolland: comics, I was also a big fan collector of famous monsters of film.

There’s all those wonderful black and white, I mean, the interior pages of that were black and white people at Rondo hazard and all of those kind of black and white movie Horak, Lon, Chaney, and all of those characters. You know, I loved them and I was fascinated by what freaks actually, Todd Browning’s freaks was a bit of a fascination of mine, sort of morbid fascination, but also The elephant man, actually that came into that as well.

But Rhonda Hasson the Tor Johnson,

Sumner: you know, it was like a Swedish wrestler. Apparently. That’s

Brian Bolland: exactly what he was. It was only later in life that I discovered that the covers of famous monsters were painted by basil go Goss. I didn’t know that name at all. And the brilliance of Gogo’s [00:41:00] was that he was able to take it an entirely black and white world of the Warner brothers all have a black and white monster horror movies.

And.

Sumner: Render them in

Brian Bolland: and literally brilliant. They never had in the first place, those issues, I don’t have the rights to throw any

Sumner: of those aspects. Those are, those are very familiar to me. And, and you’ve just explained something. I thought what gave those to me about what gave this title is incredible energy.

So until you tell me now, I never knew the name of the artist, but what was struck by his work is incredible. Yeah. And he lived till quite very

Brian Bolland: recently. He was even on Facebook recently until the last few years. I think it must’ve lived in. Yeah. Nice guy by the look of it. I’m very tired here. That’s what I was.

I never got any other drew faces.

Sumner: I’ve not seen any of his other ones. So hearing you talk about this, Brian, I mean, I used to love it in the, in those early [00:42:00] days of your career. Like when Andre, he used to introduce, you know, Laurel and Hardy, I think appear in the, kind of, the, the oxygen board episode on the moon.

And, and I remember really super clearly, I’ve actually talked to you about this before thinking about it on one of the Walter, the Woebot backup strips, he’s on some kind of, Britain’s got talent type show and there’s a variety of judges. One of whom is a well-known actress. One of whom is a mammal Monroe thing I ever remember correctly, but one of whom is his adult.

Fittler the gag is that he’s, he’s, he’s introduced as Adam Schickel Gruber. And yeah. And I used to love the way that you dropped in, in, and real life characters like that. And there are some characters from movies that I’ve always thought I would love to see you, let you just do an illustration of a cover if you will, just to stand-alone illustration.

And I’ll tell you, some of them are. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with any of these films, [00:43:00] but if you have, have you ever seen the 1947 film kiss of death? Yeah, it’s got, it’s got victim mature and it’s got Richard Widmark in it in the role that made it, made him a star and he’s, you know, fourth or fifth down the down the, the cast list, right.

In terms of his billing, but he plays a kind of snickering laughing assassin called Tommy Udo. Who’s clearly hopped up on pills and whatnot, but it’s, it’s kind of a Batman villain performance. It’s definitely one of the factors that must have influence Frank Gorshin as the Riddler. Yeah. And, but with the homicidal energy, but whenever I watch that movie, I’m like, Oh man, I would love to see Brian Jordan.

I think never heard of that. Yeah. I mean, I

Brian Bolland: thought you were going to say kiss me deadly, which is the mix.

Sumner: Well, I mean, this is so funny. You should say that because I, in my hand to God’s ear, [00:44:00] that is exactly what I was going to say next. And I, I, cause I’m a huge fan of that film. And one of the things we may have, we may have talked about this.

He absolutely is. And one of the things I do on the side at Titan is I, I did Maxim in Collins, my camera novels that he completes the Mickey explains my camera novels. And I’m the editor on those books. Cause I’m a huge hammer fan, but what’s that Mike hammer and kiss me deadly easily character up.

Absolutely. And it’s so brutal. He’s incredibly bruised. Yes, exactly. Yeah. With his clients. Oh, yeah, no, for sure. And, and, and, and it’s a kind of, it’s quite an unbelievable performance actually, because how Ralph, Ralph Meeker still, you know, basically essentially Runs through that film, such a heightened peak of energy and emotion the whole time.

There’s almost, he almost shouts to everybody. He talks to you and threatens everybody talks there. [00:45:00] Even when it’s Valdor his secretary slash girlfriend, he just pushes is pushing everybody around. And the interesting thing is, is that the early hammer novels are basically hammer is his back from the war.

And he’s this vengeance fueled constantly angry character. Who’s clearly got some kind of PTSD has come back from it. Yeah. I’ve never read any, I don’t,

Brian Bolland: I don’t know the characters at all. Apart from that, I mean, I know the Raymond Chandler characters. Oh,

Sumner: of course. Yeah. Yeah, Chandler. Yeah. Mickey explain is like, literally the emotions are just dialed up to 11 the whole time, you know, and it’s real purple prose, but it’s an, it’s an amazing, very very faithful performance that Mika Gibbs.

But yeah, there are so many scenes again. And kiss me deadly.

The several kind of vignettes in that film. Robo is still w where he’s where he’s got the guy, who’s the the orchestra conductor and he’s threatening him. And he jams is his conducting hand in a drawer, or there’s a guy that he just throws [00:46:00] down a flight of stairs, or there’s the whole others, the whole time of opening sequence, which is actually what the very young Cloris, Leachman where he finds her sort of cause the film begins and he’s like driving through the Hollywood Hills and it’s nighttime.

And all you see is everything via the Know, I mean,

Brian Bolland: I mean, these films are so from so long ago, it’s probably been 30 or more years since I’ve seen these things. I don’t know whether you watch them over and over again. Do you

Sumner: the kind of brain that absorbs them? I’m not using, I wrote about films for a long time, so I guess it just keeps them at the forefront of my mind.

Yes.

Brian Bolland: I think, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m a real film buff, but I think my, I think the stuff I like tends to be a little bit more race night where I live here, we had a local film club and one of our members insisted on it only ever showing films from the fifties. And they all seem to have a Lancaster in them,

[00:47:00] Sumner: which kind of makes sense.

I thought I have made films since then.

Brian Bolland: One of my absolute favorite films was called Nashville. It

Sumner: was by Robert Hall. I love that movie. Fantastic. I love it.

Brian Bolland: Before I’ve watched that. I wasn’t really a country music fan, but I’ve since become one, but I

Sumner: love that for my love

Brian Bolland: and the fact that there are 25 lead characters in here.

All of us get equal time.

Sumner: Really? And that was something old when, of course they did. A couple of times he took that approach to a number of movies. He did, he did want to call it a wedding, which, Oh. And it was phenomenal. I saw that one. It was a kid in Crosby and Liverpool by himself in the cinema where I was the only person in the, the classic in Crosby, a matinee on a Saturday.

And I was literally the only person in this. Oh, really? Well, we’ve been, we’ve actually been to the

Brian Bolland: cinema locally here when my wife and I have been the only two people. I’ll tell you one thing. That last was it [00:48:00] last year they released tenant.

Sumner: Oh yeah, for sure. And

Brian Bolland: my wife and I were the only people in the audit in the, in the room.

And I’m afraid after an hour we

Sumner: left now. I’m glad you said that. Cause I was going to ask you what you thought of it, because I’ve got a lot of admiration for, for Chris Nolan. But I think sometimes, you know, sometimes he, he kind of almost strays into an emperor’s new clothes thing where he’s phenomenally talented, but I personally didn’t really like him to stellar that much, mainly because I don’t like the central MacGuffin, which is there’s this whole thing about like, finding that secret to like, the, the faster than light drive or what have you.

And of course that’s virtually fucking physically impossible. So the reason it’s built around this Miguel, although he loves all this science and everything and he tries to get all the theory of relativity stuff, right? He, this there’s a conceit at the center of that, which is that well, that just will never work, you know, very interested in

Brian Bolland: time.

I mean, I mean, memento was a terrific [00:49:00] idea. I thought that worked quite well. Yeah. And I could sort of see what he was doing with tenet, but I had to read about it because after an hour or so, I found the Kenneth brand very kind of Brown of being a Russia. And I just don’t know. I think I’m a little bit over

Sumner: Canada branded Holy and authentic.

I love kind Brown, but you’ve got to, he’s got to be in the right thing, man. I thought he was great in in Wallander on television through is amazing, but, but I think I agree with you completely. Your experience of tenants is exactly mine. Well, I think my problem was, I didn’t really like James

Brian Bolland: Bond. I don’t really like super spies and I just found it all a bit.

Oh, this, this whole world. And by the time they did that business with it. The truck, you know, when they had to sort of break into a truck that was actually driving my wife enjoyed it, but I found it incredibly

Sumner: staged. Yeah, I know it is. It’s absolutely a [00:50:00] set piece where the filmmakers essentially going look how clever I am the

Brian Bolland: whole idea.

I mean, I understand that by the time we get to the end of the field, we’re going to see the same film, but in reverse. Yeah. You’ve seen the whole thing. So you can confirm that. And I feel I ought to buy it from the Tesco’s or somewhere and just sit down and watch

Sumner: it. I mean, just to have the complete experience, I guess, but I D I do absolutely think that it’s my experience with it, but I enjoyed it the whole way through, but I enjoyed it the whole way through, with a huge book.

And that was the, at the end. I wasn’t really sure. What the fuck is going on. And I’m somebody who’s spent, you know, 30 years. And while I’ve watched your films for a living and writing about them, you know, not that, that means anything except to them. I’m used to watching films and, you know, getting pretty much what’s going on fairly, you know, straight swaps.

I am losing. I’m losing my [00:51:00] teacher. I watched the

Brian Bolland: film the other day called the handmaiden. Oh yeah. The Korean guy. And I’m afraid I came away from that thinking. What the hell went on in that, you know, why did he have his fingers chopped off? I mean, spoiler alert

Sumner: who was tricking ho and I think possibly if I’d have

Brian Bolland: concentrated hard or I might’ve got it, but

Sumner: did you get that one?

Yeah. I only know about that film and have not seen it. And I have to say, you’re not really selling it to me, so I’m not going to jump in at the most to watch. There’s another

Brian Bolland: Fidel, another film I saw recently that was a puzzler and it was called I’m thinking of ending things.

Sumner: Ah, now I hear good things about that.

What did you.

Brian Bolland: But at the end of it, it was a real head scratcher is what I would call a head scratcher. And I’ll actually have to go online to read what actually happened in the [00:52:00] film.

Sumner: Once

Brian Bolland: I’ve read what had happened in the film, I thought, Oh, I get it now. But I did. Yeah. It’s a little bit emperor’s new clothes.

You

Sumner: know, I might’ve been thinking well,

Brian Bolland: no, I suppose I shouldn’t really like this, but I won’t tell you any more because you, you will probably watch it one day.

Sumner: It’s this is so funny because I could go on about films and all sorts of, well, it’s funny, it’s one of the things I want to talk to you about, and this is a really nice segue, the concept of having to go away and look at another source to confirm what you think.

I just want to touch upon one final slice of conversation about the killing joke, because a couple of years ago Who was the chap like grant Morrison came up with his view of what is going on at the end of the killing joke. And I wanted specifically to ask you about that and to, to, to ask it for you just, you know, I had always just read and [00:53:00] enjoyed the killing joke and thought, well, it’s an ambiguous note on which it’s ending, but he had to completely on ambiguous take on what the ending of the killing joke is.

What is it to you, Brian? Well,

Brian Bolland: I have read that some of these, this conspiracy theory there

Sumner: was

Brian Bolland: nothing in the script to, to suggest there was anything ambiguous about it. The two, the two of them just have a bit of a laugh let’s have a think. When I was drawing it, the, there isn’t, there is a sort of, I have a hand that goes between the two of them that some people think there’s some sort of death stroke of some sort.

There was no, I think there was no intention. Allen’s part to have it as a death scene. And there was no tension on my part to have it, have it as a death scene. So in that respect, it isn’t a death scene. I was just watching this thing podcasts over here with Philip Pullman. And he was saying, when you’re writing something, you know, you what is what is the word he use?

You know, you’re an

Sumner: author or watercraft or something you,

Brian Bolland: you, [00:54:00] you are, but once you’ve finished the thing it’s then. In the hands of the readers and they can interpret anything the way they want. So they may know more about that final scene than we ever intended to put into it.

Sumner: How’s that pronounced?

I think it’s a great answer because I, that the interpretation that Batman is the grant Morrison interpretation that Batman is executing the joker and that the clues being in the title the entire time, the killing joke. Yeah. I had never considered it until he said it. And then when I, when I deliberately read at the book, just from that standpoint, I thought, well, actually, yeah, you can interpret it this way because there’s an interesting thing that happens also in the dialogue on the final page where, where the Joker’s laughter stops before Batman’s does.

And a lot of people put that together to set out right. Batman’s just, Batman’s just fucking killed it. That’s kind of makes [00:55:00] sense. You know, but probably rides for me to hear you talk about it, to hear you talk about what the intent was is, is very interesting. I

Brian Bolland: don’t want to spoil things, but the intent was not that on the, either on Alan’s or my part as far as I, well, if, I mean, if it had been he would have communicated to me that I had to draw it that way, but he didn’t.

Sumner: I think there are one or two others.

Brian Bolland: Examples where they’re drawn to characters together. And for some reason there’s a hand in shadow in between the two it’s. Maybe it’s just a way I draw. I mean, there are a couple of other things about the killing joke that I only grew to love afterwards. And one of them is the fact that the cover is a lot

Sumner: more horrible than you imagined,

Brian Bolland: because it is the moment when the joker is doing the worst thing of all is because, you know, what’s on the other end of that.

If you read the story. So although it’s a very friendly and very familiar sort of iconic because we’ve seen it so often [00:56:00] image, it’s actually an image of the moment when it is the worst thing happening, but also later on, there’s a moment that I love the most, regardless of all the eras. Apart from all of these things about the thing about the final page.

I love the bit

Sumner: where the joker

Brian Bolland: draws the gun, the gun that apparently has terribly harmed Barbara and points it at Batman and shoots the Batman with that gun. And out of it comes a flag that says, click, click, click. And he says, damage him team.

Sumner: It’s just mad

Brian Bolland: madness

Sumner: to that. I mean, you, you can imagine that the joker is just

Brian Bolland: he’s, he’s like he’s playing at it.

He’s a theatrical villain in a way. Isn’t he? But the look of surprise on his face that the gun is empty, but not only is the gun empty, but it’s got a bloody flag sticker.

[00:57:00] Sumner: That’s

Brian Bolland: almost my favorite bit in the whole story. Anyway.

Sumner: Oh, that’s that that’s, that is fantastic to hear. Thanks. Thanks for your candor, Brian. I really enjoyed hearing that. And just to, to carry on talking about the joke for a second, cause we started talking about the joke earlier. Uh it’s it’s very interesting and gratifying as a fan of your work and appreciative of your work.

So yeah, how much you’d like the joker as a character, because I think some you’ve often managed to do and the history of all those great DC illustrations and covers you’ve managed to redefine the joke has looked several times over during the time, your joke hasn’t remained static in one kind of place.

I think that, I think he, you know, I think you play around with the edges of his appearance quite a bit. Well, I mean, since.

Brian Bolland: I mean, I was doing the Neal Adams joker. I think. I mean, the, the thing that really made me want to draw the joke was a story that Neil Adams drew was, it would have been down your

Sumner: nail, the one, Oh, it’s the joke is five way revenge.

Right? [00:58:00] Is that the one you’re talking about the Batman? Is that the giant saying

Brian Bolland: giant? Yes. And there is another story attached to that, which is a bit long-winded, but there’s a moment. In that story where he’s just walking along the road, the pavement, as we call it the sidewalk with his Hench persons, his henchman, I don’t know quite what his henchmen does, but he, he just thinks it would be funny to push him in

Sumner: front of a bus.

Yeah. And

Brian Bolland: lots of, kind of dress joke, isn’t it. And I thought that’s a level of kind of comical insanity that I could imagine him at the end of the day, I’d had no say whatsoever in the writing of the collegiate tool. I had some of the say and the writing of Camelot. Yeah. Because my boss did

Sumner: ask me what I thought.

Brian Bolland: Could go on later on in the story. And I invented the mother the big, giant, mostly egg SAC, alien creature for the lesser stages of Camelot, but I had nothing, [00:59:00] I had no say in the writing of the killing joke.

Sumner: Oh, that’s interesting. Really interesting. And, and in that, in the last, I guess is I guess it must be since the killing joke, is it 30 years or so seeing that time you’ve been making well, it was

Brian Bolland: nice in 88, wasn’t it?

That’s

Sumner: a long time ago, long time ago now. So, so in your long career illustrating covers for DC, are there any that stand out as real favorites of yours? Oh, well, you have different

Brian Bolland: favorites on different days, don’t you? And I mean, I’ll draw animal though. You could probably, I mean, I don’t expect you to know everything about me cause you’ve got a lot of artists and writers in the comic world to remember, but I drew a, quite a few

Sumner: 60 odd consecutive,

Brian Bolland: Animal man covers.

And that was great fun because that was really grant Morrison, revealing himself as another special writer. I think at the [01:00:00] beginning when he arrived at DC, I mean, my theory is they didn’t want him on the big names. So let’s give him this kind of 10th rate character that has been retired for the last 20 years animal man.

And he turned him into this kind of matter. Charactered and it was, I think number four, we actually had my hand drawing him and he was in a sort of crucifix.

Sumner: Can you put that on the screen just then? Yeah, no, I mean, it’s, it’s very memorable to me. I got, I bought those issues in real time, month by month as they came out.

But I mean, I’ve got a comical. I, I

Brian Bolland: love kind of the, the, the thing you get from judge dread that often is lacking from American comics. It’s the combination of hard action. Even horror and comedy. I mean, you certainly get it with, you know, the Fink gang or whatever there, and people like that, you know, the league of fatties and yeah, yeah, it was

[01:01:00] Sumner: wonderfully horrific, but

Brian Bolland: the comical character.

And I think I was able to incorporate a kind of comical element dimension too. I mean, you know, I was on the cover artists. I mean, other people did the real hard work, Charles chalk, for instance, drew most of the early issues. And then later. Rick Veech. Was it

Sumner: various people? I think this approach is very much where you came into your own on, and it was great on animal mum, but I think, I think that confluence of kind of the macabre and action and comment, your invisibles covers are all about that.

I think,

Brian Bolland: Oh, the invisible is good, but will you see? That was when I went digital. You see, that was again, that was grant Morrison and his, his work is so psychedelic and sort of metaphysical and. Odd isn’t it that it was, and at the time I w Shelly Rosenberg, who was the who began Shelly bond was the editor of all of that.

And they let me really go wild on, on those. Some of those covers, I [01:02:00] remember the final 12 of those covers was supposed to be a countdown to the millennium. And we decided they decided to count them from 12 to one in reverse order. So that number one would occur the rush on the millennium because everything gets late and it was wasn’t finished on time, but it was great funds or incorporating the number 12, 11, 10, nine, eight, all the way back to one as some kind of elements, several, several elements, really within these covers.

I was given pretty much free range to do what I liked. I remember number one, I was especially asked to have an arm coming out of a Lake and I just took a photograph of my wife’s. I’m actually holding a gun. Oh, brilliant. Which high’s photo-shopped coming out of it. So I was really at the time mucking around with Photoshop, just, you know, Dave Gibbons introduced me to Photoshop because people were coloring [01:03:00] my line.

You know, I was trying to flash, I think as well. I know it’s probably a bit later, but a lot of the work I was doing for DC was just line work. And then Tatiana ward or a number of other colorists without the color. But then as the computer entered the scene the colorist would be using a lot of computery whizzbang effects.

And the original line work that I put down on the paper in the first place was getting a little bit swamped. And I thought if anyone’s gonna swamp my drawings with color, it needs to be me.

Sumner: Yeah. So you always kill your own covers at the moment. I do it.

Brian Bolland: I don’t remember the last time anyone ever recovered, ever color.

At the moment I produce, in every case, I produce completely full color

Sumner: work. I

Brian Bolland: also let them, cause you know, you do the work in Photoshop and you send it via some, I send it via WhatsApp, not

[01:04:00] Sumner: WhatsApp. We teach, we transfer.

Brian Bolland: And I also, I send them to the color file the best and also the lines. There’s always a line.

The line drawing itself has got to stand on its own for me because you know, we come out of a tradition. We Brits of comics in black and white.

Sumner: You know, they,

Brian Bolland: they had to work without any color. And I still like the I’m not a painter. I really can’t work with paint. And I like the drawing to stand on its own.

A good degree of line and detail and dark and shape, light and shade. So I will send the work in color and also in line so they can use that if they

Sumner: want. Yeah. I mean, I think your aptitude, a brilliance in financial aptitude, your brilliance with line is one of the reasons why your work is so popular.

And and it, this is the elements of your work. That to me as a fan and somebody probably started reading your stuff when I was about 10 It really stood out to me [01:05:00] from the get go. Particularly when I first sang, I first encountered you and Gibbons your artwork at almost exactly the same time, because I was a PE I was a paper boy issue.

One of 2008 D appears at news agents. I worked for, I bought it. I was immediately hooked and it was a big fan of American comics. That’s what I grew up on. And I didn’t read many British comics until 2008. Well read the odd one. And I did at that time, the NAB, but I wasn’t so into the wall books at that point.

But 2008 D was to me the first British comic that I had a kind of American sensibility. And for me, that ex that American sensibility was typified by your arts and Dave’s art. And then it’s the same way I felt about Steve Dylan’s art when they ultimately started doing like Nick fury, I think, and in the Marvel whole comic.

Yeah. But, but I thought you guys very much had. In different ways, had a flavor that I, as an American comics fan really, really responded to. And I think that clarity of line that you have [01:06:00] is the thing that, that I just remember your work being so impactful from the first moment I saw it remember being really fascinated by it because it didn’t feel very, it didn’t feel very British to me, even though that being British it’s part of who you are, you know, I think, I think it always made a tremendous amount of sense.

The minute you started working for DC, I thought, well, that’s the inevitable outcome for both you and Dave. I always thought that’s what would happen. Yeah. What are you seeing? The thing is before

Brian Bolland: 2008 D We grew up on wall picture library. I think my mom was particularly keen on those

Sumner: Hotspur and act, but what was the, what was the one that had hooked that had the shark action?

Brian Bolland: And a lot of those comics were drawn by Italians and Spanish artists. There was certainly not an American superhero dimension or look to any of them, but of course, Dave and I had spent two years doing this Nigerian superhero called [01:07:00] PowerMax. Because Barry Coker, we I’m sure we’ve covered all my screen’s gone blank.

We’ll switch it back on again. And so the Wilson,

Sumner: the super

Brian Bolland: heroes that have already worked, they had made the, that had been the

Sumner: spider. Yeah. You started out as a villain and then became a, I never read him. Jerry

Brian Bolland: Siegel wrote that.

Sumner: I don’t know if you remember this probably, but one of the first times that that we encountered each other was around the time that I was doing the first kind of reprints of the, I used to IPC, which is when I was the publisher.

And and I, I, I put together the first archive additions of the spider in the steel cloth, which were in fact published by Tyson worldwide. And and yeah, that’s, that’s, I used to, I used to love those strips, particularly as a kid, because for me, they played the most. Closely to the kind of American comic [01:08:00] sensibility in wheelhouse.

They did things that were, that felt to me as an American comics fan that were not dissimilar. I was, I was really

Brian Bolland: delighted by the way, with the recent

Sumner: collection of steel claw

Brian Bolland: rebel, it was it rebellion. I did the cover on that.

Sumner: It’s so lovely. It’s so it’s a bit, it’s a beautiful book. I

Brian Bolland: mean, I don’t think, I think the cover is okay because I was really trying to make it look as if Glasgow himself had drawn it.

I don’t really care how much I supplied as long as Glasgow himself is actually on the cover there. I mean, it’s under the head, I think. Well, I think probably the head I’m looking, I’m looking past you because

Sumner: I’m not attached to the wall. Oh, it’s a beautiful piece of work. And that was edited by, by Keith Richardson.

Who’s a great bloke. I hope they do

Brian Bolland: another one because yeah. And I’ve also volunteered to do the MiTek the mighty cup. Fantastic. I’ve probably

Sumner: got a much better

Brian Bolland: artist lined up

Sumner: Chris Weston or somebody who helped [01:09:00] me to do that. Westland is a brilliant artist, of course, but know. I mean, I don’t think, I think it’s pretty rich.

You’re saying they’re going to get somebody better. Cause I’d love to see. Well, I

Brian Bolland: would love to do it. I mean, Eric Bradbury was the original artist I loved as a kid in 1964. It was the DC comics, but it was also the weekly value which had all this, you know, it was such a treat really want you to know what my tech was going to destroy

Sumner: this week.

Volume was, was the cradle of all these great, all these great strips, of course. Of course, which are very close to my heart. I certainly, I hope, well, if Keith’s listening to this, I hope he will commissions you to, that might cover sooner rather than later you or

Brian Bolland: somebody else. It was probably somebody else who told me that Charlie Higson.

Of the Hixon sort of the fast show is writing the steel Chlor

Sumner: or writing. Yeah, it would, it would have been, somebody has got to be one of the rebellion guys, but he sounds exactly what I tell you. Funny enough, you mentioned Chris Western. So when I was [01:10:00] at IPC and I was involved with the, the, this is the early two thousands revival of those characters, which were published by DC and I cope obvious the Albion series with with which Dave did the covers forum was written by Leah Moore and John rappin.

And then I published co-published Dave’s Thunderbolt Jackson series, which was written by him and he did the covers and the interior art was done by John Higgins and that, and then we did a battle of Britain and who was finishing that. It was my, it was myself at IPC and DC comics while we did battle of Britain, which was written by Garth Ennis.

And the art was by Colin Wilson. So the next book that, the series that, that, that the line got canned after the battle of Britain, but the fourth book was going to be the steel claw written by Ian Edginton and and illustrated by Chris Western. And don’t, we’ve got to the point where myself and Bob Wayne, who you, you will recall.

And Hannah canals, we’d all been out for dinner in the West end [01:11:00] and in and Crescent, it was all gonna happen. And we’re all very excited about it. And it was the one I was looking forward to the most. So I was absolutely gutted when the line fell apart and, you know, Didn’t go any further. It’s always a shame when, you know, you’ve got a great book that’s in the ether and it doesn’t actually happen and must’ve been even worse for the creators.

But for, for me, it was just, I remember being gutted at the time. I was going to say

Brian Bolland: that when I first, when I started out there, wasn’t a 2008 and all of the comics before, I wasn’t sure what line of work I was going to be going into. So I tried out some DC Thompson war, two pages, you know, sort of mystery.

There was a sort of a creepy, airy kind of two pager. I drew, I even tried girls romance. There was sort of, I did even did pencil drawings for a kind of romance magazine of some sort, which I only found the other day, which I put on one of these Facebook things. So there wasn’t [01:12:00] really a suitable.

Location for my work. You know, I was trying to kind of nudge myself in the direction of drawing Napoleonic war stories and people on horseback. And I didn’t have to do that at all, but it was very convenient that well, star Wars came along. Basically. I, they say decided maybe we should try our hand again at science fiction myself.

And yeah, and I, I guess a general, I mean like a generation that included people like givens and me had grown up on Marvel and DC comics. So we knew how to do that. Kind of, we, we were, we knew about people at Murphy Anderson and Gilkey and all of those very smooth artists and that’s, those were our sort of mentor.

So I guess right from that period on 2008, he took on a slightly different look. Yeah. I mean, there were other people, obviously then David neighbor came along with this completely [01:13:00] unique style, which you’d know.

Sumner: Yes. As I asked as Dave and loads of people, again, Gibson. Yeah. It’s amazing stuff. That’s the beloved Nelly look very different from everybody else.

I felt at the time. Right?

Brian Bolland: Yeah. Yeah, it turning into an eye. This is turning into a rebellion in 2008.

Sumner: Yeah, Keith, again, if you’re listening to me, the please, you know, my address to send me a check,

I’m fine. I’m not no close out one more thing, which is, there’s a flip back to DC and account. We were often name-checked about, about illustrating the definitive version of, and it’s none of the characters we’ve taught. We talked about this far, but it’s somebody you’ve, you’ve, you’ve illustrated many.

It’s currently really straight in many of us and that’s wonder woman. [01:14:00] Everyone loves your iteration of wonder woman and it’s. So often held up as the kind of standard of how wonder woman should be illustrated. And I can’t disagree with that. I’ve always loved your wonder woman for awhile. Yeah. Yes. I I volunteered

Brian Bolland: to draw the one woman covers.

I was, I was on animal, man, I think. And pour a cup of what was it? A cup of Virgo or was it Tom Pyre? Who are the editors? I just, you know, something, I really like, yeah.

Sumner: She was, she she’s a sexy character.

And

Brian Bolland: I thought, well, I could do that. And the word, the one or two, I mean,

Sumner: it started with just, I did often

Brian Bolland: when you don’t have an idea at all, because I mean, I like covers that have good story suggested on them, you know, but quite often nowadays they just say, well, give us an action cover.

I think, well, yeah, but what are they doing? So quite often I’m drawing a cover without really [01:15:00] knowing what is going on in the story. So on a couple of occasions, I just did fairly iconic looking pictures of one-to-one. And one of, one of the was her standing on one leg seems to be, that seems to be an often

Sumner: reproduced image of, I, I, it really is.

I think you’re you’re wonder woman is the kind of perfect confluence of Power strength, confidence and beauty. And I think every time I see a wonder woman illustrated by you, she’s always all four of those things at once. And, and, and just the sheer power of the character. I mean, your, your wonder woman is absolutely second to no one.

And, and, and that, that that’s that extremely, she’s completely feminine, but completely powerful and in control. I think that’s a wonderful thing to see. And I think that’s something you’ve always really understood about the character. [01:16:00] Well, I mean,

Brian Bolland: I think Adam Hughes is the definitive wonder woman.

He’s such a good artist. He’s such a, such a good artist because he, he, he does manage to create that it’s not exploitative, you know, the image of wonder woman and the women that he draws. Cause I think it’s specialized and all kinds of Turner and all the other women that they’re not exploited images. I think the images of, you know, sexy, but very strong and identifiable with women, which I think even women, especially women, Nathan might be drawn

Sumner: to.

Well, I mean, back

Brian Bolland: in the early days Ross, Andrew and Mike Esposito had a long period of drawing wonder woman. And I think she was really very much in the doldrums for a long, long time. I think George Perez had a go at a good, good while. I don’t know whether he packed up or whatever, but I, I [01:17:00] stepped in and just did a few 20 or maybe 1520, I don’t know.

But thanks.

Sumner: No, it’s absolutely absolutely true. So what, what did you, what do you think of Gallagher dealt on screen?

Brian Bolland: I think she’s the most watchable DC super hero character. There’s something I can’t quite get my head around any of the males

Sumner: on screen. Yeah. I,

Brian Bolland: I think she’s terrific. She’s such a nice woman too.

I mean, when you see her being interviewed, she’s so down to earth and likable and beautiful. And, and when she does, then they do the action scenes. She seems to be getting into it. Yeah, I think she’s great. Yeah. Apparently she’s well-trained cause she was in the Israeli army. It

Sumner: wasn’t checked. He was no, that’s true.

Yeah. You wouldn’t want to pick a fight with her, but

Brian Bolland: she’s

Sumner: absolutely great. Yeah. I mean, she’s phenomenal. She’s almost so [01:18:00] perfectly cast that she’s one of those actors that, you know, you’d really have to, you’d really have to construct her in a laboratory for her to be that perfect for, for wonder woman.

She’s she’s she’s incredible. I think she’s just got this towering charisma as well, extremely likable charisma, supremely capable of she she’s everything you would want, wonder woman to be. And I think she’s a terrific role. I know she’s a terrific role model for people like my daughter for women around the world.

I don’t think they could have, I don’t think they could have cast her any better. And I think she was. I was just going to say that there

Brian Bolland: was a, there was a thing called international woman’s day, a few years ago. And somebody suggested that image. I drew a wonder woman standing on one leg that was suggesting wonder woman as an image for international woman’s day.

And then somebody said, no, I think possibly nowadays now that she’s on film, 

Sumner: having had Gallagher doc bring her, bring her to life having made such a success of it as [01:19:00] well and having been so, so rightly embraced in that performance, I think you’re right.

I think I’ll tell you who else I re who I really like.

Brian Bolland: I really love what’s her name? The Harley Quinn character on

Sumner: screen. Oh yes. Yeah, of course. Margot Robbie, Margot.

Brian Bolland: Robbie. That’s right.

Sumner: Yes. She’s fantastic. I mean, totally

Brian Bolland: different from the, I mean I’ve drawn Harley Quinn the way she was drawn by Bruce, Tim or whoever.

But she looks completely different on screen, but I think she’s so

Sumner: funny. Oh yeah. I mean,

Brian Bolland: she seems to be the one out front. I mean, suicide squad was one of the very early showcase that brave in the bowl, number 26 or something like that back in the late fifties. And they were other sort of dull bunch of adventurism.

Yeah. So this, this crowd who are currently called a suicide squad or a bunch of villains.

Sumner: Yeah, that’s right. Well, it was, it was John Ostrander, the author, the writer in the eighties you’d [01:20:00] kind of repurpose them. So he took the concept of the suicide squad who were you’re dead. Right. Are incredibly bland.

I took the leader rip flack, and he, he put, basically turned it into the superhero version of the dirty dozen with an ever evolving cast because the villain, second, second string villains, just keep on getting killed off. That’s the point they’re genuinely kill them, you know, but I think the new suicide squad movie, the one being direct, written and directed by James Gunn looks far more in keeping with the wood, the, yeah, the tone and the quality level of the comic than the first movie was, I mean that the, the the trailer looks like it’s, it’s got that insane James Gunn energy that he brought to the guardians, the galaxy movies, but just, you know, Kicking into that whole concept of the suicides got said, there’s whole bunch of second or third string DC villains in that movie.

But it’s quite clear that not very many of them are going to make it to the end of the film. [01:21:00] So yeah,

Brian Bolland: they say, if you do something, you know, if you do this, you’re dead. If you get on the wrong side. And she says, if you’ve got a personalized number plate, you’re dead, but run over from the previous. But I did, I did like, Oh, the, the Marvel character, the one with Ryan Not Reynolds, was it

Sumner: right?

Reynolds, Deadpool,

Brian Bolland: Deadpool. I thought Deadpool was

Sumner: hilarious. That’s terrific. I completely agree. I completely agree. Yeah. Deadpool is a wonderful piece of work and and again, because it kind of breaks the fourth wall so much. So many, so many gags about comics themselves. I think we were very you know, a very well-read comics fan like you are, and you’re on the inside of the industry.

It’s a lot of fun. Well, actually, I’m

Brian Bolland: not a well-read comics fan at all. Actually, I’m a very badly because I probably have

Sumner: read any of them. Oh, I think I was thinking more about your, your silver rage years rather than yeah. I’ve

Brian Bolland: encountered a lot of them. A lot of [01:22:00] who the characters are. I’ll tell you another set of characters if

Sumner: you have time.

Oh, we totally got time, bro. I love the dude, but I love grant Morrison’s doom patrol. Yeah, I

Brian Bolland: mean, I love the original doom patrol Drake and brunette. I met Arnold Drake, Brie briefly, and I love Bruno pre-meal and he was one of my favorite artists. He did the original Def control. But the The incarnation of the doom patrol by grant Morrison and Richard Case, my phone.

I love that too. And that was very, very

Sumner: of, Oh, I D I just thought, you know, when we get, when you get characters like Danny, the streets or whatever, that’s just such, such, it was so rich that series. I remember when he reset it, or I think the, the first four-part arc is called crawling from the wreckage and he kind of resets it.

And at first it’s relatively normal. You know, and then he just takes it and he just goes and goes and [01:23:00] goes, and it’s like, he’s doubled down on everything he’s learned about doing animal man. And he just goes, fuck it. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna take this. I think that’s the joy of that. During that

Brian Bolland: period, when Simon Bisley was doing covers Oh yes.

Covers too.

Sumner: And when they

Brian Bolland: put the collective together, I pretty much begged to do the covers. I did five of those and and I did actually read all that stuff. You know, I didn’t always read a lot of the things I do covers four, but on this occasion, I, I pretty much bang to do those. I love the, was it Mr.

Nobody?

Sumner: I Mr. Nobody. Yeah, he,

Brian Bolland: he’s got an evil plan to turn every 12 inch ruler in the world.

Sumner: What better, what better moment to wrap up our conversation? We’ve got to stop. Yeah, the thing I I’m conscious of the fact that we could [01:24:00] do this for whole of the 90 minutes and what I’d rather do, Brian is different than non two minutes. Now. I’d love it. If, if we could, if you could come back and we’ll do a take two some time, not, not now, but maybe in a, in a couple of.

If we have a, we have a second storm, which by the way, this is exactly the way the conversation with Dave went. I think with Dave, I asked him one question to maybe, and then lo and behold, it was an hour plus later. I’m fine with a lot of people I

Brian Bolland: may is you ask them a question they ask, it goes on for about 15 to

Sumner: 20 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I, I fun. And I’ve got a very digressive conversation style anyway, and I’m a big fan of digressions. And I think it’s the thing, you know, if an interview, a conversation that it’s not the redundancy it’s conversation like this was literally just, I ask you a question and then you scroll that an answer to a question I’ve been asked a thousand times that would be very interesting pulling the string on the conversation.

And you end up talking about [01:25:00] Billy fury. His real name is Ronald witches. You know, that’s what I love about life, full stop, you know? So, so it’s been a real pleasure having you on hard degree and it’s been a real pleasure chatting to you as always mates.

Brian Bolland: Likewise, what can

Sumner: I say? Oh, well, that’s what I, that’s what I call a hard degree from me and a hard degree from Brian Bolland and Brian are very much looked forward.

Thank you for all your work. Thank you for the work. We began the show with where you are genuinely. It was one of those glorious times, and I wasn’t just thanking you for something that I picked up and read, but something that I had a hand in conceptualizing, which is your Batman live, we’re building cover.

That was a, I know a great pleasure for me and for Rob  planets. So thank you for that. And thanks as always for being such wonderful guests. I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you. Yeah, well you take care. I’ll see you very soon. Okay. Bye-bye bye. Bye. All the best. Bye.

Sumner welcomes Spoilerverse founders, John Horsley & Kenric Regan, to Hard Agree for a deep dive on the classic 1966 Batman TV show and the huge impact it had on his life. Well, that’s how their conversation starts and ends but, along the way, they detour into how Kenric & John met John Wesley Shipp, the brilliance of David Caruso, NYPD Blue, Sumner’s hugely-influential grandfather Pops Smythe, Sumner’s best-in-the-business Comic-Con booth crew, James Cucciara’s Stylin Online, gentleman actorPeter Scolari, gentleman super-agent Barry Greenberg, the one and only Adam West, the three faces of 1960s Catwoman (Julie Newmar, Lee Meriweather & Eartha Kitt), Zsa Zsa Gabor and Tim Burton’s 1989 Batman!

Follow Sumner on Social Media:

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:

Kenric Regan:

John Horsley:

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:

Sumner welcomes his old pal (and the three biggest names in noir fiction) – multi-award-winning crime writer Max Allan Collins – to Hard Agree, to discuss Max’s wildly successful career creating long-running series characters like Nathan Heller & Nolan, their work together on Max’s completion of the outstanding adventures of Mickey Spillane’s two-fisted PI hero Mike Hammer, Max’s writing style & working practice, Max’s adventures writing movie tie-in novels, the influence of music over both their lives and Max’s legendary all-star Comic-Con garage band Seduction of the Innocent!

Follow Max online:
http://facebook.com/maxallancollinsofficial
http://twitter.com/maxallancollins
http://maxallancollins.com/blog/

Buy Max’s books:
http://www.maxallancollins.com/books/

Follow Sumner on Social Media:
http://twitter.com/sumnarr

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO
Follow DENIO on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/denioband/
http://soundcloud.com/denioband/
http://twitter.com/denioband/
http://instagram.com/denioband/

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/spoilercountry/
http://twitter.com/spoiler_country
http://instagram.com/spoilercountry/

Kenric Regan:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

John Horsley:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?
https://youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/spoilercountry

Transcript

HA – Max Allen Collins Interview

[00:00:00] Sumner: Here we go, that’s it. So we don’t have to worry about how we look on camera though. You look great mate, because it’s just going to be the audio. So we don’t have to be out our usual, you know, um, uh, Sinatra, Martin standard of male beauty for this apiece.

Max Allen Collins: It’s audio sparkle, not video spark.

Sumner: Yeah, exactly.

That’s exactly right. Yeah. Spot on mate. Um, yeah, hard to green deed. Hardly agree. My friend. So, so max, how are you doing mate?

Max Allen Collins: I’m doing great. Uh, I mean, it’s very, very cold here and we already determined, we won’t even go out for drive through food today where it’s just staying in. Uh, it it’s disconcerting here because there’s a, there are a lot of people who are just completely throwing the caution to the wind and just pretending that this pandemic is over.

And, and so that’s, that’s unsettling.

Sumner: It’s highly unsettling and it’s of course, just a million miles away from the truth.

Max Allen Collins: Uh, yeah, it, it, [00:01:00] it has become something political. It’s become a symbol and it’s the dumbest, it’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen in a lifetime filled with viewing dumb things.

Yeah.

Sumner: Yeah. Amen to that. Now I couldn’t agree more. And in fact, we could follow this whole hour talking about the COVID situation and the pandemic situation, and you know, how poorly it’s been dealt with in the U S how poorly it has been dealt with in the UK at the time of recording, I would say that. Uh, w w at the beginning of, in the UK, what appears to be the one thing that our incumbent government seem to be doing relatively well, which is rolling out the vaccine quite quickly.

So I already know quite a few people who’ve had the vaccine. Um, uh, so my parents have had it, uh, my daughter’s had it. Um, my, uh, Dave Gibbons for example, has had it co-creator Watchman. So it’s, I, I think I know when I’m going to get it, not for a while now, but I think I know it’s all scheduling out.

Max Allen Collins: Well, I haven’t had the [00:02:00] vaccine yet.

And the thing that, and I’m, I’m old enough to qualify here and have enough underlying conditions to qualify here. Right. And yet, everybody I know who has gotten the vaccine is a Trump voter. And to tell you how frustrating that is to me knowing how much he cocked it up. Uh, I, you know, it’s so the very people that were.

You know, not wearing hats and are not wearing masks and instead wearing Maga hats or, uh, our head of me in line and that,

Sumner: and of course that includes Trump himself, the ultimate COVID deny and his whole inner circle of, of, uh, of, uh, morons slash, uh, dastardly, you know, liars and double dailies, you know, to me, it’s quite amazing to see.

Max Allen Collins: Yes. I, I don’t know if you feel in, I think you’ve been spared. I know, I know you’re not necessarily wild about your prime minister, [00:03:00] but I, I don’t know if you’ve had the level of. A whole segment of the population who refused to acknowledge the difference between reality and unreality, who, who thinks that lies are the truth.

That is the rampant thing here, thinking that lies.

Sumner: I think that is a, an almost uniquely American phenomenon as is the, uh, collusion between, um, uh, the con congregating, not wearing a mask and, um, uh, and celebrating your individual freedom. I mean, it’s batshit crazy. It makes no fucking sense in the same way that, um, in the same way that, um, gun ownership as a Euclid, uniquely American phenomenon know, it’s not, if you go anywhere else in the world, it’s not even an issue.

People don’t even talk about it. Right.

Max Allen Collins: Well, I’ll, I’ll say something interesting. I hope it’s interesting. But when I was, uh, in college, uh, summers, I worked for a [00:04:00] newspaper and the first summer I, I worked for this newspaper was, uh, I think it was 1968. So I was, I know, while I was, was working for this newspaper, I was in charge of, if you can believe it, it’s a small town newspaper, the front page, and choosing everything that came in over the wire.

So I, uh, I was there for everything from, uh, Martin Luther King and, and, uh, Bobby Kennedy’s respective assassinations to the moon landing. I mean, it was to Chappaquiddick. It was a wild time that pans. So, but one of the things that would happen in addition to checking the wire service, I would get mail from various political groups.

And I remember very vividly the day I had a letter, uh, that was, that was pro-life now towards anti-abortion. The sanctity of life. And I read about the sanctity of life then in a separate envelope, from the same address, I had a pro [00:05:00] capital punishment letter about how these, you know, how we had, we had to get, even with these, these people that had taken, taken people’s lives.

And so we’re going to take their lives. And I just held one in one hand and one in the other and thought, I mean, just, uh, is it logic? Is it apocryphally? Is it stupidity or is it a magnificent comp cocktail of all three?

Sumner: Yeah. I mean, it’s unbelievable. I mean, I think it’s very funny that anecdote, but it’s also fascinating and you’ve touched upon the one other example that was, I was going to say, which I think is a uniquely American issue.

Um, I’m want to say uniquely American. I mean, when you can, per all the, uh, developed, uh, essentially democratic Western nations. And I would say America stands alone on this whole kind of lies are the two thing and all which is a relatively recent phenomenon too. I know it’s been around for a while, but for it to grab holding the way it has, I think that’s a, that’s a by-product of the Trump years.

Right. And then the other thing is guns. [00:06:00] You know, and gun control and the insanity around that. And these are two things you’re talking about, the rest of the, the rest of the Western democracies in the world. They’re like, this isn’t even a thing anywhere else, you know what what’s going on? It doesn’t make any sense.

And then the third, the third leg of that of course, is what you’ve just mentioned, which is, uh, which is abortion, which is taken as read anywhere else in the developed world as being a good thing, to be able to offer, you know, young women w women who are in that situation, it’s not even debated. It’s just the law.

Yeah. Just the law. It’s legal, you know, you can avail yourself of those services. We need them, if you’re in an unfortunate situation where you need to, and, and, and, and it’s just simply not an issue. It, it, it’s such a fascinating thing to watch the debate around abortion in the U S where it’s such an emotive issue.

So can join with people’s faith and whatnot, which of course there is a genuine divide between, um, religion and government, [00:07:00] uh, everywhere else in the developed world. And there is supposed to be in the U S as well, you know, but it’s such a fascinating thing to watch, particularly when people can’t even use.

The fucking word abortion, it’s all these weird kind of like pro-choice or are you pro-life it’s like what? Why not people can’t it’s like Voldemort’s name people can’t even say a Bush and so weird everywhere else. It’s just like, so those I would say, and you know, me, and I say that the preface to this is, you know, as you know, is I look, I love America.

I’m related to many Americans. You know, my grandfather fought with an American unit. I’ve grown up completely obsessed with American culture. And in the normal course of my life, I spent half of my year in the USA. I fucking love the USA. Right? This is an, an anti-American run it by any means. I actually love the USA, but these three things are, you are absolutely unique among the developed Western democracies of the world.

And you don’t get them anywhere else. [00:08:00] You know, it’s fascinating. I think,

Max Allen Collins: well, am I right or wrong? But it has been a while since, uh, in the UK, uh, Ruth Ellis was

Sumner: hanged. Yes. Quite some time. Quite some time a friend. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Allen Collins: I know. I have to say that I have never been more ashamed of my country than I have been, uh, just since, uh, the, the, the Capitol riot.

Oh, wow. Amazing. Yeah. And, but I will tell you the saddest thing about that. Right. And then we can get off politics. Uh, cause it’s always kind of a, I tried to stay away from, you know, I never discussed that on my blog or if I do it, I just, it’s a glancing blow, shall we say? Yeah. But I was working on, uh, the new quarry book.

Yeah. New quarry novel, which is a violet and politically incorrect in every possible way. I’m sure there’s, there’s a, a hoard of liberals out there that would like to see me, [00:09:00] uh, strung up if they, if they only believed the capital punishment. Uh, and so. I’m working on this, this book, and I know it’s January 6th, then I know that that’s going to be a key date because of, of the, you know, because that’s the day that the, uh, the electors are going to be sanctioned, officially approved.

And I knew that there was going to be a big rally that Trump had had whipped up. I go downstairs at about two o’clock and turn on the TV. I’ve been working all day, ignoring it. Like if cuts, if I turned it on, I knew that that’s all I’d watch. And so I see these morons crawling over the face of the Capitol, basically like ants.

Yeah. And here’s the sad thing I just shrugged. I was just like, yeah, that’s about right. Instead of being outraged, instead of being, you know, uh, starting to cry instead of starting to [00:10:00] shout, instead of having some emotional reaction, any kind of surprise, I was just like, Yeah, that’s the next step, rush the capital.

Now then of course I had all those emotions come through when you actually see the footage of them inside, but it was a long shot. You know, the difference in a movie between the closeup and a long shot emotionally is, you know, it can be quite different just seeing them crawling up and rushing in and hitting with, hitting with the American flag.

How do you like that one? I mean, it’s just, you know, the thing about the Trump era in general is if I enter it, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re one of my editors. Yeah. And I came to you and none of this had happened and this was the book I pitched to you. Would you throw me off?

Sumner: Right. It’s just so much people will believe this is not believable.

This is American. Okay. Yeah. So very sad.

Max Allen Collins: I actually think we’ve gone around the, I lived through the Vietnam war era. [00:11:00] Yeah. And I thought that was our low app. Yeah. Uh, I mean, my father didn’t talk to me for like two years, you know, and it was, and this is worse. This is absolutely worse. This is, this is probably as close to the way we were right before the civil war.

Uh, which is something that always seemed very distant to me

Sumner: until lately. Yeah, because you have this rabid diluted base of people who’ve been consistently lied to for a very long period of time by essentially, you know, dastardly self-serving media, media, barons, and, um, on what they believe is just as, has no grounding in reality.

Max Allen Collins: Well, I don’t, you know, I think the only reason we haven’t had a civil war here, um, and we’ve obviously had armed insurrection cause we have that on January 6th, the difference between now and, and, uh, you know, [00:12:00] The middle of the 19th century is that the South was one unified area where all the people that thought that way were there and everybody who thought the other way were in another regional part of the country.

Well, now we’re a deck, we’re a shuffled deck. We’re everywhere. I mean, I have people living on my street that wa that, that, that have those, those beliefs that are so a hundred percent at odds with mine. So it’s harder for us to have, you know, we, it’s harder to have a civil war. Yes. Yeah. I mean, to the degree, we had a civil war in January six.

People had to go to Washington from all over the country and they did come from all over the country. Not, not a huge number, but enough to tell you that white, you know, this is, uh, this is like the wave, you know, fat marbles, a steak. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s just all through there.

Sumner: Yeah, no, I, I think, I think that’s a very good [00:13:00] analogy.

I think it’s a very good analogy and it’s, it’s a it’s, um, dealing with that and getting to the side of it is just, um, such a huge obstacle, you know, and it’s such a, you know, huge thing to, to need to do. And, uh, and yeah, it’s, um, I mean, I know that, you know, all my U S friends, um, Of which there are many I, which I have many, as you know, are almost unanimously concerned about these issues.

Um, quite rightly so. Yeah. So, um, so it’s yeah, I really feel FEMA.

Max Allen Collins: Yeah. I also have this interesting aspect of my career and you’re a part of this. You’re a part of this, which is that, uh, I’m Mickey Splain chose me to continue my camera. My camera is I think, somewhat wrongly, but it is widely considered to be a right-wing even fascist character.

And so, so this is one of the reasons why, [00:14:00] quite frankly, I don’t talk about this stuff in public much, and I don’t do any, almost nothing about it on my weekly blog. That’s every Tuesday I do a new blog because. They’re my customers. Yes. That’s what Mickey used to call his readers is his customers. So, so there’s probably a good number of Trump voters that, that read my camera.

Yeah. And God bless him for doing it. And to me, I mean, we could talk about the fact that I view my camera as a character so that his beliefs are not necessarily my beliefs. I’m just trying to be, uh, faithful to him as a, as, as a literary beast. And he can be a beast. Uh, but there’s, there’s another aspect of this that I reflect on sometimes, which is as I do, what little light go out in the public now where I go through a drive up and get McDonald’s or burger King or whatever, um, or somebody brings something to the door and I have that little bit of interaction with people.

[00:15:00] I know damn well that that some of them are Trump voters, but I don’t treat them disrespectfully and they don’t treat me disrespectful disrespectfully and we’re friendly and it’s, and when we say, you know, stay safe, we mean it. And so it’s, it’s almost like there’s the humanity box over here and then this crazy political box over here.

And it’s, uh, it’s sad. It’s just, it, it is, it is, it is possibly tragic, uh, that, you know, I have, I lost some of my best friends of it. This was one of the best men. Uh, the, one of the grooms men at my wedding, somebody I love dearly. And he believes in this stuff, I have a nephew who, you know, who, who bought into Q

Sumner: Anon.

Well, that, yeah, I mean, that’s fucking nuts. I mean, can you even rationalize any of that stuff?

Max Allen Collins: Well, I have, I have seen lizards who

[00:16:00] Sumner: pretended to be humans. Wasn’t that cool. Vivo, that TV show

Max Allen Collins: we’ll get off of this, but one of the things about reality TV is, um, I’ve a very good friend named Phil Dingle dine. Who was my,

are we back?

Sumner: Hey, Paul, did you pause there? So I didn’t mean to, I just realized that my, uh, my, uh,

Max Allen Collins: your pause visually too

Sumner: visually now I’m on Batman. Yeah,

Max Allen Collins: no, you’re

Sumner: back. You’re back. Okay, please continue. I’ll just, I’ll flip that in the edit

Max Allen Collins: of a very good friend named Phil Dingle, dine, who, uh, is my, uh, my editor and a cinematographer on, on the Indy pit.

Um, movies and documentaries that I’ve done, you know, I’ve done over the years and I forgot what point I was going to make. [00:17:00] Or are we talking about,

Sumner: sorry mate, I totally distract you that I’ll tell you what it was. I had to put my HTMI cable in cause I realized my wifi signal wasn’t robust enough. Yeah.

Um, yeah, basically you’re talking about Q1.

Max Allen Collins: Okay. We’re talking about killing on, uh, it’ll come back to me. I’ll I’ll come

Sumner: back to it. Yeah, no worries. I’m going to so I’ll, I’ll be editing it. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I’ll I’ll launch in with, uh, with another question. So, so as you’ve just alluded to actually max, you know, you and I are friends and we also have a working relationship and I’m privileged to be your editor on the Mickey explains my camera books, which are, which are published by Titan books.

And, um, And when I say I’m privileged to be your editor, I’m here to tell him to use listening that, uh, being max on Collins editor doesn’t really involve a lot of work because generally speaking, um, uh, what’s that? Yeah, no, no, just the sweat and pure enjoyment mate. Do you know what I mean? [00:18:00] Uh, and, uh, you know, you, you, you produce highly complete manuscripts and really, I guess, you know, the editing process, certainly on hammer.

My experience with you is essentially, you know, just, just me going through your manuscript, reading it, enjoying it. Giving the odd note about, have you thought about this that’s as that’s as much as that’s, you know, it’s not certainly not an, it’s not an answer in the sense of some of my experiences over the years where you’ve got to go into the DNA of every page and go, Hey man, look, this consensus construction is just not working.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. That’s not what editing max Allen commons is like,

Max Allen Collins: well, and you know, you know, this too, I run into sometimes because editors line editors and copy editors are used to having to do a lot of work. The mine comes in and they feel like, well, we better do a lot of work on this, even though it doesn’t need it.

And then I get into, I can get into some real jams on that. When I have a copy of her, two thinks a he or she ought to rewrite [00:19:00] the entire book. And it’s probably my pet peeve in, in, in the writing business. And I’ve allowed myself to get. More upset about it than I should.

Sumner: Yeah. But I think it makes a lot of sense.

I mean, I think part of the editor’s role personally, is that you have to go into the process, um, respecting what the writer themselves. Wants to achieve from that process, particularly if they’ve got a whole lineage of successful novels that they’ve written and had published. And, you know, in your case, you’re highly prolific, you know, award winning author.

You know, I think I know exactly what you’re talking about because I’ve seen it. Um, where, and, and I’ve heard you tell me stories of experiences that you’ve had, um, where, and I know other writer, friends of mine have had similar experiences where you work with XYZ editor and they’ve got the whole self justification thing.

If I need to do a lot of work on this now, some writers I’m sure. And I think, you know, there are fairly. There are some fairly big names who [00:20:00] feed need fairly robust editing, but again, that’s part of the conversation and part of the relationship. I think you really, if you’re somebody who’s had a lot of great deal of success and is very prolific, like yourself, 0.1 is you have to be led by what you want to get out of the editing experience as you open the door, you know?

And it’s like, no, I want to, I want to light at it. I do not want to structure it. I don’t want to get into the DNA of each sentence. Yeah. I wa if I’ve, if I’ve missed something or if I’ve been repetitious, you know, that’s what you have, uh, some, an editor and you’ve essentially got to, this is somebody because whoever it’s, whoever you’re working with at whatever publishing house, whether it’s me at Titan or Charles are there are case, but you’ve also got Bob your, what?

Your wife as well, your wife and partner, who is really your first editor right before I ever see the manuscript.

Max Allen Collins: She is, that’s absolutely right. Uh, It’s not that that writers, everybody needs [00:21:00] editing. Everybody needs some needs help. I mean, even if it’s just like Lee, just like, I don’t understand this.

Some Barb will say that there’ll be a paragraph and she’ll say, I just don’t understand this. And then I read it and I explain it to her and she says fine, but you know, you can’t go door to door explaining to people what you had in mind. And so, so that, that kind of clarity is necessary. There’s some terrific, talented people though, who, uh, need more editing.

I mean, Stephen King is one of the great storytellers. Of of our, our time of, of any time, but he’s not allowed himself apparently to be edited much. And in recent years he is the first thing he did with the stand was put another 30,000 words into it. He needed another 30,000 words of the stand. So, so you can get too powerful.

We just watched, uh, you know, I’m I like Quentin Tarantino, you know how much I [00:22:00] love, uh, once upon a

Sumner: time in Hollywood, we’ll talk about again.

Max Allen Collins: I love that, but we, you know, so, so, uh, Barbara and I revisited some of the stuff and she had never seen some of it. So we watched death proof the other night. That’s part of Grindhouse and it is wonderful, but incredibly self-induced

Sumner: yeah, the

Max Allen Collins: dialogue just going on for your conversations going on forever, just so he can hear himself talk and nobody stood up to him.

Yeah. Nobody stood up to him. And so he has. He has a movie that should be, that should be like an, a plus movie of its kind. And it’s about a B minus, which is crazy too. So somebody, if I come in and I’m just being arrogant, somebody has to stand up to me. So you’re not doing yourself any favors doing this, and that’s happened to me before and, and, and they’ve been right.

Yeah, [00:23:00] because every, I mean, if we weren’t self-indulgent we wouldn’t be creative people.

Sumner: Right. Of course. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s a very good point. I think, um, I, I personally, I think the thing thing about you that max is you tend not to write too long. Yeah. Um, for want of a better description, that’s sort of a ham-fisted way of putting it perhaps, but, you know, I don’t think you overwrite by any means and your style is quite lean and, and certainly you’ve named checked.

Somebody I think is a magnificent writer, Stephen King. But I generally don’t read that many Stephen King novel as these days. Cause I find them to be terribly over it. And to just, you know, I don’t personally like reading books, one of my prejudices, I don’t really like reading books that are more than about 250 pages long.

And I almost never read books are longer than 300 pages now. Clearly, I’ve got an English degree, I’ve read a ton of books that are way longer than that, but my preference is not to read books that are, that are overwritten. And, um, I, I, you know, I [00:24:00] I’ve tremendous fondness for, for Kings early at shorter works.

Yeah. The ones that he’s written later at tremendous length, aren’t my favorites, even though some of them brilliant and another person, I think a great example of somebody, I believe massively overwrites, who I’m not, I wouldn’t really read the series of books anyway, because it’s not really within my wheelhouse, but I know many people who love this also that’s JK Rowling, right?

Now J K Rowling. I could have perhaps read all of the Harry Potter books if they’d stayed the same length as the first two, which were around as I recall, two 5,300 pages. But from the point where it really blew out, I think from the third or fourth novel in the series, they almost like quadruple in length.

And at that point, unlike I’m just not down for reading this many pages about what is a relatively simple premise, you know, I don’t need to read it in this level of detail

Max Allen Collins: or you, you, you raised an interesting point, which is the frankly personal [00:25:00] preference, uh, people, I think sometimes don’t think through that the books are quite different from, from movies.

If you and I go to see a movie, uh, we are going to see the same movie. Now we, we may interpret it somewhat differently. We may like it or not like it because of the mood we were in that day or because just who we are. Uh, I mean, I find some times that I, that I dislike a movie that I, that I liked when I first saw it and vice versa.

Sometimes I like what was wrong with me? This is, this is terrific. And it can be as simple as what your mood was when you saw it. But your age when you saw it as is, is a factor, however, with a novel, any, any work of fiction, you have to bring a lot more as to the party, as the consumer, you, the reader has to be essentially a collaborator.

So, you know, I often feel like, well, sometimes I get to play, you [00:26:00] know, the, uh, I get to play Broadway and sometimes I’m playing the, you know, the three mile Island dinner theater, because what the, where it plays the brain that plays in. And what they bring to it is, is going to be a major factor. So it’s like, they, you and I can’t read the same, read the same book and have the same experience.

We, anything close to the same experience. Now, as a writer, I tend to be, even though I think I am pretty lean, I tend to be very controlling so that I can have use so that your experience and the next guy’s experience and the next gal’s experience will be similar enough that, that they all have, have had a similar experience.

Okay. And, and, and that’s one of the reasons why one of the things I, I am most criticized about Andrew is that I over describe, uh, setting and, uh, and clothing.

Sumner: And I find that [00:27:00] fascinating. I get

Max Allen Collins: that all the time. And particularly with this current generation who are, everything is moving so fast, but for me as an author, uh, Setting and, and clothing descriptions are key to characterization.

The room you live in the house you live in, tells us a lot about who you are. And it does it in a way that is, is, is not, you know, it’s not ham-handed is not, is not, uh, it’s not overdone. It’s just like, this is who lives here. And the clothing you wear tells you something about that person and it’d be welders and me.

And when people complain about, well, why? And I’m honest, I’m thinking, well, if you don’t like it, skip it. If you come to a, if you come to I’m describing the room and you’re bored. Yeah. Move on to the next Hunka dialogue. But I don’t like to have [00:28:00] characters running around naked in a book unless it’s novel, I

Sumner: guess.

No. I mean, I guess, I guess maybe my favorite novels for so many years have been written by authors who tend to be very descriptive about those points, that identity of a Baton Island. And I think also you need the lights and shadow between. Constant dialogue. I find pretty boring. I think you, but your dollar can be very propulsive and really moved, you know, scenes along.

But if it’s it’s fucking everything you’re reading in a chapter, you know, you want some lights and shadow, you need some, you know, we need dialogue to propel the narrative and you need to have some sense of space and who the people are and what they’re wearing, which of course is a big part of who a character is, is how, how they’re dressed and the kind of situation that they’re in.

So I find those things very important. I don’t think you can have. You know, one without the other, I think go to go too far. I mean, I am aware of some authors who I don’t think fiction of dialogue in the, in the work and do you know, and, you know, sometimes darling is like described, uh, you know, [00:29:00] almost within the narrative of the paragraph.

I don’t enjoy that particularly either. And, and I’m a big fan of, um, I’m really quite fan, I guess it’s because I’ve read so many piano was over the, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m a big fan of the first person perspective. I don’t think it needs to have it to, to write a great book. But when I look back, all of my favorite books are in fact written in the first person.

And that starts with being a huge, um, actually this not even with BI space though, I read a lot Chandler when I was quite young and it’s left a massive imprint on me as it would, as on there, it had to be yourself, but the other, my other, I guess, first. The first writer that I really fell in love with and couldn’t get enough of the work was Damon Runyon, Damon Runyon.

My dad can, is a big CA is a big, big Damon Runyon fan. And he kind of passed that onto me. And, um, and yeah, yeah, we just ended up, uh, he gave me all the books when I was in my early teens, I guess, I guess by the time I’d been a student, [00:30:00] I think I’ve cycled through the whole lot, maybe four or five times.

Max Allen Collins: Well, the, the first person that Damon you’re running uses is actually the, the, the Watson. Yes,

Sumner: absolutely. Yeah. Not the main character. No, that’s right. It’s so fascinating.

Max Allen Collins: Great Gatsby. But, but you still getting it filtered through through that first person style and I love Ranya and he’s my favorite short story writer.

And then of course, there’s Mark Twain with huckleberry Finn, which is now politically incorrect. Of course, of course. But, but I think Twain is going to outlive the people calling him, put politically incorrect, just maybe Mark Twain will outlive live them, but it’s, it’s, uh, I’ll give you a small example of, of what we’re talking about.

I’m working on a fun series. That’s just basically fun. And that’s this, this new series I’m doing for Wolf FAQ, which is, uh, about it’s about the secret agent who, who, who [00:31:00] James Bond was based on that’s that’s the conceit, his name was John sand, sand, John sand and, and Ian Fleming based everything on this, on my fictional spy.

So I could, so I could just do a James Bond novel basically. And so, uh, I’m working with my friend, Matt Clemons, who did all the CSI novels with me and did the three political novels. I did a Supreme justice, uh, that the reader and Roger’s series. So th this is for fun. All right. So these are venture. I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re absolutely.

This is absolutely. McDonald’s not, not, you know, not, not, not a steak house. All right. Yeah. And so, uh, we’re having the conversation about, is there enough action in here? It’s there. And so, so as we’re applauding the next one I’m I’m like saying, okay there, I asked him when we have a big action scene, then the next, next chapter, no action.

But then the next chapter, we got action scene, right? [00:32:00] So that you can have, you, you need, you need that break even in something kind of simplistic, which these books are fairly simplistic. Uh, but, but, but, and my, my wife, when she was reading the second one and th the second book, which hasn’t come out yet, which is called live fast, spy hard.

Okay.

Sumner: Fantastic title of it.

Max Allen Collins: And it, and she’s reading a chapter at a time. And she said to me, because it’s almost a, you know, a 60,000 word chase, this, this book, it’s, it’s a, there’s all kinds of action going on. And she said to me, Very diplomatic. Like, is it possible that you could have too much action in a book?

I said he probably is. I’ll look at that. Maybe we’ll mock up back a little, uh, you know, cause we had, you know, it, we had like a gunfight on the beach and then the same chapter, we had a gunfight during an earthquake. And so maybe we [00:33:00] stepped over the line just a little bit, but of course these books are to some degree, obviously tongue in cheek.

They’re not satires. No, they’re not sad tears there, but you know, look at Fleming. I think Jane Bond is the pretty well. He spent an awful lot of time telling you what brands of

Sumner: things that he used

Max Allen Collins: to smoke, what cars he drove and what clothes he bought at that. So did we not need that? Yeah. Do we not need to know that he’s in a tuxedo?

Yeah. I mean, come on. That’s who, that’s who he is. Do we not need to know my camera’s in a trench coat and a fedora? Do we not need to know it’s raining? You know, that that’s one of the things that you had Elmore. Leonard was great, but his, his like 10 rules for writing are told bullshit. The first one is never write about weather really, really right.

About [00:34:00] whether

Sumner: we think this

Max Allen Collins: film in a noir, sorry. Yeah. At times, I mean, it’s just, but this is what writers do. Writers come up. They learn how to write their books, that what they do, because it’s, it’s a totally self taught. Art, you can go. Yeah. I went to university of Iowa writer’s workshop, which was the best one in the country.

And I still taught myself everything. I got some tips, some I got some support, but I taught myself how you know how to do this. But what I learned to do was how to write a max Helen Collins book. I didn’t learn how to write an Andrew Sumner book. I didn’t learn how to write an L Merlin or book. So if I start to teach you how to write, all you’re going to learn is how to write one of my books.

And there’s already one of me. Yeah. Like there already was an Elmore Leonard. So when Elmore, Leonard went out there telling everybody how to write like Elmore, Leonard, That’s one of the dumbest things I ever heard a smart

[00:35:00] Sumner: person do. I, I, I agree with you. And I think this is a to flip over to movies. This is, I think the issue with somebody like say Robin is clearly, you know, very analytical, clever guy, but I, you know, putting aside some of the obvious flaws about his work with regard to editing and whatnot, I’m going go back, talk about Tarantino.

It’s quite clear that Tarantino absolute doesn’t give a fuck about any of the structure that Robert Makia spouses whatsoever. And of course, what has that led to it’s led to Tarantino? Being the most influential filmmaker of his generation, um, his work always being warts and all, some that you really look forward to.

And not only that, you know, he’s delivered four or five, truly great groundbreaking pieces of work. You really can’t fault reservoir dogs, you can’t fault pulp fiction. You can’t fall. In my opinion, Jackie Brown, you can’t fault. What’s product, amazing film. You can’t fault. Once upon a time in Hollywood, I’m also very fond [00:36:00] of the, uh, of the hateful eight thing.

That’s a great film though. It’s very long. I think that’s all part and parcel of what it is.

Max Allen Collins: The bastards

Sumner: Inglorious bastards.

Max Allen Collins: Yeah. I mean, uh, I had trouble with them at first. I had trouble with him at first and, and it was, uh, interestingly when my wife, Barbara and I, uh, watched kill bill, she, she had never seen them and I hadn’t liked either one of them at the time.

Yeah. And I watched him now and slot, these are terrific. Yeah. I love them. But I know what happened to me was when I first went to see him, because I am a film buff and I am a TV buff. And that included Asian movies that include well road to perdition obviously is a nod to, uh, you know, lone Wolf and Cub and John Wu and, and all that stuff that my son, Nate and I were watching on gray market [00:37:00] VHS because none of that stuff was out yet.

I just had friends who said, you gotta read, you gotta watch this. And so I saw all the John Wu before it hadn’t been released in, in, in the United, in the United States. And when I would watch him, I know where he was getting everything. Yeah. And it was annoying the hell out of me because he was, I felt that.

Uh, you know, like all the music he was using, all the music cues he was using, I knew

Sumner: what the music cues were. She recognized the music from my inside. Yeah. That’s exactly, exactly

Max Allen Collins: right. Rides a horse. And I was just sitting there being pissed off. And I think probably on some level I was jealous that I, I hadn’t gotten to stealing from these people before, but what I have come to realize is that that stuff is in there.

Not because he’s picking the bones of, uh, other filmmakers, but [00:38:00] because he loves this stuff. Yeah. And when he uses it, he does it in a way that doesn’t resemble anybody else’s movies. And that’s what I understand now that he had, he, he, he used what he needed to use. But there’s much more originality in his work than there is borrowing.

Yeah. And come on, we all borrow Shakespeare. Didn’t think up any of those stories. Yeah.

Sumner: Yeah. No, it’s so true. And um, I find it very interesting that you referenced kill bill because I had a similar but dissimilar experience. And, um, of course after, after reservoir dogs, you know, blow everything apart and after pulp fiction doubled down on, then Jackie Brown troubled down on things.

I was by that point, huge rabid, um, Tarantino fan as it was every other, every other movie journalist working in the UK at the time that I knew

Max Allen Collins: interrupt just for a second. And that’s just the say since I dissed [00:39:00] Elmore Leonard, it’s not an accident that it was an Elmore Leonard book. The structure, the, you know, the whole thing that took Quentin Tarantino up a notch because I think it’s above the other two.

Sumner: Oh no. It’s, I think it’s a masterpiece. And, and, um, I I’d like to return to that in a second because I love that movie and I particularly love the two lead performances. I think they’re incredible. Amazing. Let’s talk about that in a sec. Cause cause kill bill, just to go through my experience with kill bill.

So I was a huge fan and at that point I was, um, at the time. Killbuck came out. I was the publisher of uncut magazine, which is a magazine that still runs to this day. And it’s essentially classic rock and roll classic Americana music and movies. Yeah. Very, very, uh, very, it’s a British publication. But in addition to being about the classic sort of British invasion acts and the classic British music acts of the seventies.

And so it’s got a very, very American focus in, you know, we did a lots of long form journalism on [00:40:00] Bob Dylan, you know, on the band, et cetera, et cetera, dropping them, Janice Joplin, whatever. But a lot of them film and a lot on say the classic film of the 50 sixties and seventies, whether that’s Sam fuller or whether it’s a Scorsese in his health department, all that kind of stuff.

So. Why go and see the preview of a, of kill bill. And I’m there with, uh, two old friends, colleagues of mine, a guy called Michael Bonner, who is the film editor of uncut magazine that was published at the time. But I, but I used to, I used to still write for the magazine and then the guys got called a Duncan, basically, who’s the managing editor of loaded another magazine that I published.

And at that time I was writing a bit franca and I was writing a bit for the enemy and the enemy is the new musical express. It’s like the rolling stone of the UK. So we all go to see it along with every other kind of movie journalist and music, class, moon, maybe jealous. Then what a screening with is maybe $200.

So kill bill one rolls and everyone goes fucking [00:41:00] bananas. Everybody loves it right at. You could just tell it’s got its grip on the whole audience. It’s, everybody’s having a brilliant time. And then that sequence at the end of the movie where the last beat is where you hear, where you hear a bell and a buck.

I think his brother is called the Michael Madsen character where you hear them talk about the fact that her daughter is in fact still alive, which she doesn’t know at this point. And that’s the last moment in the movie. Right. And there’s an inaudible kind of gasp. Yeah. And I’ve never been to see any film.

That was the interrupted the narrative in the same way that say, say the empire strikes back dead and ends essentially on a cliffhanger. I’ve never been in any, any screening where the movie ended on a cliffhanger and you had a room of not regular punters, cinema battled, hardened, cynical journalists.

Yeah. Who have had the bear in their sandwiches and don’t have to send a nice about the movie. What haven’t we seen, right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. What the fuck, who cares? [00:42:00] You know, that, that all pervasive sentences, which I know you don’t have. I know, I know. I know that I don’t have, but I’ve spent a lot of time around.

Some of my fellow journalists, who I’m exactly that often the more prestigious the organ that they write for the more empowered their actual love of cinema seems to be. Right. And there’s a whole conversation I can have about this, where I generally prefer the, the, the movie and music journalism over the people who write for the monthly magazines devoted to those forms.

Then the people who write for say the, uh, the prestigious newspapers, who I think are completely out of touch with what people actually love about cinema personally, but to flip back to kill bill. So, so has the ending, and if, if they ever, if ever, we could have stood up and say said the second part right now, they would have done.

If they could, if they could have somehow got the hands on part two in that moment, they would have fucking write it. It was all anybody could talk about. And it was one of those evenings where we all went to the pub afterwards [00:43:00] and were there till closing time. And everyone is just dissecting the movie complete euphoria.

And the interesting thing was. A year later when I then went to re review part two, and I remember we went along and assorted, we, my brother and I walked down to part two with the profound sense at that time of utter disappointment, I was like, Oh man. Uh, just a hack. Just didn’t give me what I thought I was coming in to see, because it’s very, very dialogue based, which is something I love about Tarantino.

And, but it’s, it’s, there are action sequences in it, but I, I just felt like, uh, almost like part one, this sort of felt at the time was like kind of perfectly conceived in terms of it’s doubling down action beats. And these there’s these huge, very lengthy pieces of discourse in part two, which on their own merits are kind of brilliant, like the whole bill talking about Superman thing, but I was profoundly disappointed and felt that way for a long time, in retrospect.

So, [00:44:00] whereas my part one review is like a five-star rave, um, part the part two reviews, like three star. Well, you know, it’s great in parts, but right. But the interesting thing is I then didn’t see either part for about five or six years and then watch them with my son one day back to back one Saturday at home.

And then when I watched it the second time around. Both here. And I thought part two is fucking brilliant. I really, really enjoyed it. You know, it’s like, and I think Tarantino is one of those guys that his work is so rich. Actually you can go back and revisit and find all these things in it that you didn’t see the first time, as much as you might go to the cinema and be a seasoned movie view and therefore use the tricks of cinema and the fact that it can have that emotional effect upon you.

I think with him, even though you might be just as sophisticated in terms of your movie knowledge, although probably not as Tarantino, you can watch his movies a second time and get yards and [00:45:00] yards of stuff, ask them that you didn’t see the first time around. Right.

Max Allen Collins: Can, can you pause for a

Sumner: second? Of course.

The camera. Yeah. Okay.

[00:46:00] Max Allen Collins: sorry about that.

[00:48:00] [00:47:00] Sumner: I took the opportunity of that commercial break to make a cup of tea. All right. Yeah. How are you doing? You’re doing fine. I’m

Max Allen Collins: doing fine. We can pick right back up where

Sumner: we were. Yeah. Right. So, so basically, um, are we recording again? We’re recording again now. Yeah. I just let it roll actually. I’ll just  so, so yeah, so that was my experience with that was my experience with kill bill.

It was part two for me was almost a completely different experience when I came back to watch it second time.

Max Allen Collins: Well, we, we watched it, uh, Barbara and I watched it one, one, one night, one the next night. And that worked perfectly well, but he did, he did reassemble it and it was shown a few times as I think it was called something like kill [00:49:00] bill, the whole bloody thing.

Sumner: Yeah. That’s the whole bloody affair where it’s all cut together in one go. I mean, I would, I would love to see that there’s also a Japanese version where the, all of the action sequences in color, you know, there’s that whole black and white sequence that worked where, you know, you, you do say close with somebody is either blanket and it goes black and white for about 10, 15 minutes, right in the Japanese.

Got that’s all in color.

Max Allen Collins: Well, I, I, I think he must have decided that he didn’t like it that way or because you would think he would have brought it back out. Yeah. And I know there’s a couple of versions of hateful eight.

Sumner: Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah. I actually S that I, did you go now? Did you ever see that?

Max Allen Collins: I saw it in, I saw it in the high definition.

Sumner: Me too. That was the longer version. Yeah, because this there’s three different versions. There’s the main release version. There’s the, there’s the kind of a road show version, which would the, in the [00:50:00] Panavision, super whatever, or, and that, that, and that is longer and has more of these extensive shots of that beatable countryside that he shot in.

I too went to see that, and it came with the program and all that kind of stuff myself and my son went. And then there’s the version, which is on, um, which is on Netflix, which is the four-part version, which is I, if you haven’t seen that, I would recommend it. I really enjoyed it. So, so if you watch more footage, more footage.

Yeah. And it’s the whole thing cut together into basically four. Our longer thereabouts, um, uh, episodes. And there is definitely more stuff in it, but it actually works, you know, works. Is this kind of four episode, four episode thing, if you can, it’s definitely on Netflix USA.

Max Allen Collins: Well, one thing that I’m really, uh, find very amusing and you’ll understand why, but you probably know that he has announced that he signed to write a novelization of once upon a time in Hollywood [00:51:00] and his is apparently working on it right now.

Uh, it, it comes out later, I think later this year, which fascinates me because it just shows his perverse love for movies and everything to do with movies, because he’s doing a novelization of, of, of a movie that won’t be out that will have been out for two years or something by the time they’re not, but that’s not what novelizations were for.

Just having it be packaged. I understand to look like it had come out and. You know, the seventies and I just think it’s, it’s hilarious. And, uh, of course, you know, that I have written many novelizations, that was just for about 15 years, sort of my side gig too. Uh, and I don’t know if you know why I got into novelizations, but if

Sumner: not, I would, I would love to hear them max.

Well,

Max Allen Collins: I will just say briefly that this cause it’s a separate story, but I, I did do that. Dick Tracy [00:52:00] novelization for the Warren Beatty film was the first one I did and I lobbied to get it because at the time I was the writer of the Dick Tracy comic strip. Well, About three years later. I, and that book sold by 800,000 copies that’s to date.

My best-selling book is that Dick Tracy novelization. And about three years later, uh, this editor, I didn’t get along with speaking of editorial, uh, disputes, uh, got me fired from, from Dick Tracy after 15 years. And after I revitalized the strip. Yeah, of course she did. We did the curb and, uh, and I am still bitter.

I am sorry.

Sumner: Can I ask, had that editor always been your editor on since you’d worked on Dick Tracy? No. No.

Max Allen Collins: And that’s partly why I, that the guy who, who, uh, Hired me. He was replaced maybe, Oh, maybe a year, two years before the [00:53:00] Tracy movie. So, so from 1977 to 1988, I had the guy who hired me. Then this guy came in and in my opinion, had this attitude about, well, I’m not going to like anything the other guy did.

So I was on, I was on the shit list from day one and I did what I could to, you know, to please him and nothing. I did pleased him. And there were also, I think was a, um, I think there was an agenda to get rid of me just because they ended up hiring somebody who was on staff, who already had a salary and just added the Tracy.

Got it. Clipped onto that guy’s workload. Whereas, uh, I was, I had a contract and of course, uh, so I did it for 15 years. Ultimately it was really a good thing that I. That I got fired. Cause then I did road to perdition and all kinds of good stuff. Yeah. Because I just tried to stay alive. But, uh, one of the first things I did at [00:54:00] one after getting, uh, getting fired was I told my agent, um, Hey, I had a, I had one of the best selling, uh, movie novels of all time, go out and tell people that I’m up, you know, I’m available to write movie novelizations and nothing happened for a while.

And then I got a call that my agent said, I think, you know, you may know this story. Uh, my agent said, uh, I’ve got good news and bad news. The good news is they want you to write the novelization of the new Clint Eastwood movie. And Clint Eastwood had just one for, uh, for the, Oh, what’s the

Sumner: wonderful and forgiven

Max Allen Collins: forgiven.

And so, so I said, great. And he said, well, now what’s the bad news. He said, they need it in 10 days. Uh, and I said, well, in seven days I’m going to San Diego Comic-Con and he said, well, maybe you should cancel [00:55:00] it. And I said, I can’t, you know, so, so I wrote it in seven days. Wow. And, um, I burrowed in, and of course there was no, there’s no real internet at that point for, for me to draw on.

So Barb helped me. She, uh, you know, cause that’s a story that goes all around the country in the line of fire is what it was. Oh

Sumner: yeah. Ryan,

Max Allen Collins: I shared the story has, you know, maybe 15 cities in it, you know? So she’s on the phone, calling anybody we knew and you know, St. Louis or anybody we knew and asking questions and going to the library and getting anything she could.

But, but I delivered it and it did real well. And then after that I got, um, movie novel gigs. Sometimes, unfortunately it was like call Collins. He could do them fast.

Sumner: Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Max Allen Collins: But I did. I was probably, I don’t think it’s immodest to say I was probably the top novelization writer. I would [00:56:00] exclude science fiction because I was, I did not do anything like star Wars or I would have loved to, but I did didn’t and in that period, there still was a lot of, uh, there were a lot of.

Movie novelizations being done for straight pictures, you know? So I did things like American gangster and, uh, I did Maverick and I mean, I done all kinds of stuff that, uh, in, in, in different genres. So, which was fun for me. Cause I. I liked being able to operate outside of my, you know, my comfort zone.

Cause

Sumner: I learned things well, Maverick, of course you sometime ago, very kindly, um, gave me a copy of the, uh, of the, your Maverick novelization, because we found that one of the many, many things that we have in common is, uh, unlike a lot of English, people of my generation. Um, I’m actually a big Maverick fan.

Um, it’s not that well known. So people who are kind of. Any younger than me. Yeah. For obvious [00:57:00] reasons. I mean, I know that told Stu for the, for the U S as well, but, but, but yeah, now it does, but, um, but I actually grew up watching, watching Brett Maverick. I spent my entire, almost high school years watching the Rockford files on Monday nights, they would screen it on BBC one and then we’d wrote for files finished.

They, the BBC just flipped straight to screening Brett Maverick and my brother and I particularly used to love that show. But one of the, uh, one of the great things about your novelization of course, is that it actually has a ton of Brett Maverick law in it. That is not in the movie, which I thought was fantastic.

Max Allen Collins: Yes. Uh, you know, there’s stuff about Bob, his brother, Bart, and there’s references to episodes of the original Warner brothers show. Uh, that’s what I grew up with. Uh, you know, I, I I’ll tell you a story. That sounds, that sounds like it doesn’t have anything to do with anything, but it does. It’s a story of why I quit the boy

Sumner: Scouts.

Oh, I want to hear this. Yeah. [00:58:00] So

Max Allen Collins: I never was an outdoorsman. I mean, I always, I always said that the first thing that, that, that Americans did when they moved West West was build a cabin and get the hell inside. Yeah. When they got there, they got inside. And so I’m, I’m an interior, uh, kind of, kind of kind of person, but I got pressured into joining the boy Scouts.

And so there was a, uh, and there’s a longer version, which I won’t tell you, but th the guy who was in charge of the boy Scouts was he had been in world war one and was still. Living it. Yeah. And Andy, he, so he, it was very paramilitary, extremely paramount. And so we went out for tea for tea for three days, and we’re doing all this stuff that you do.

This tree is this, and we’re going to, we’re going to have, we’re going to have the eggs made from powdered eggs. And it was just the most horrible experience I had. And a friend of mine sees me, comes to me and I’m on, I’m on the [00:59:00] edge of a, of a bluff. There’s a little farmhouse down there within there’s a Lantana.

And you can see into the living room. And my friend comes up to me and, and I say, I’m quitting any sort of, well, why are you quitting? I mean, come on, give it a chance. I said, and I pointed down the Hill and I said, they’re watching Maverick down there.

There was no VCRs, nothing. I was, I was up here eating powdered eggs and they were down there watching my favorite television show. And I learned a very basic lesson about making the

Sumner: right choices in life. Oh, aye. I, I, that resonates with me so hard. That is the hardest of hard degrees for me. And I’ll, I’ll, I’ll tell you why, because, um, I, I I’ve had, my family has quite a musical bent.

Right. [01:00:00] And, um, and, uh, you know, everybody’s reasonably adept at playing instruments and whatnot. My dad was a, my dad. He was a, his career as a bank manager, but he was, he’s always into the drums. And he used to play the drums in various big bands. Right. He was massively into sports, which I never was. And pretty much when he got a bit too old to play the bone crunching sports, he was best at because he was a very good rugby player.

And he was such a good rugby player that he’s, he’s had a, he ended up being like, um, like Bruce Wayne in the dark Knight rises, you know, he’s got no cartilage in either of his knees. To me, his knees are absolutely wrecked. And so, uh, and they’re both in fact, you know, not his original knees now. So they work a lot.

So he, uh, around about the time that he, uh, he really couldn’t harm his life by playing rugby anymore, which is very violent, but he kind of transitioned into embracing more of the musical side of himself. And, uh, and he ended up playing the trombone at this point in my life, which is the transition between primary school and being at high school, I kind of [01:01:00] played the Cornett, but after lobbying to play the Cornett after about a year, I was like, No fuck this noise.

I don’t want to play the corner. I don’t actually want to play an instrument. I did use like singing a lot. Right. And, um, and I’ve got, you know, I got a reasonably good singing voice, not a great one, but a reasonably good one, but I didn’t want to sing. I don’t want to sing in a choir. I just didn’t want to play an instrument anymore.

Unfortunately, my playing in the corner and my dad picking up playing the trombone, that it inspired him to found the local brass band in the part of the Liverpool suburbs, where we lived. And he got massively into that. And I got it really. I had no choice other than to play in the brass band. Um, and my, my sister was in it and she is genuinely a good player.

She met her husband playing in that band and he can also play really well. I, on the other hand, it was like, Wednesday night band practice was for me a two hour out of body experience where I’ll be there for two hours thinking about fucking anything else apart from playing in the [01:02:00] brass band, but it quickly got a whole ton worse when the BBC, throughout my childhood.

Constantly on a loop, endlessly repeated a couple of key things. One was Sergeant Bilko. So Sergeant Bilko, right? As much among Englishman my age is everybody knows it. Right? English, women, and men minds. Everybody knows it. And the reason for that is from the moment it first arrived in the UK until the early two thousands bill co was constantly repeated on the BBC and they would play it just before what used to be the close down of broadcast twice a week.

So, you know, they would play bulk out like 1130, midnight on a Tuesday and on Thursday, all throughout my childhood, all throughout my high school years. And of course, you know, once you’re a nocturnal kid or you’re coming back from the pub, when you were a young man, you watch it. So everybody knew it.

Everybody knew it and loved it. Right. The other thing that was constantly repeated, but two of the things were earliest Smith and Jones. Have you [01:03:00] ever remember that? Which is much more popular in the UK that ever was in the U S it’s like a massive here in the UK and it was repeated for years, right? We both with both Annabelle Hayes’s and then, and then the other thing of course was star Trek and I constantly, and so I was having this out of body experience, going to the brass band internally, hating it and feeling cut off from everything.

While knowing that my dad would be disappointed if I didn’t go and not wanting to let him down, because I love my father, you know, so I’d go and go sit through the pain. But within about six months of that, of that band practice being set up every Wednesday night, they started to repeat. Star Trek right in the middle of me being at that band practice.

And that honestly felt like how on earth to me? Yeah. You know, I used to miss, I used to miss, um, star Trek every week because I had to go to band practice. And then the other thing was they would have, that would be on at 10 past eight, on a Wednesday night and BBC one. And then at nine [01:04:00] o’clock on BBC two, when that, when it finished and the news will be on a BBC one, you’d then flip into having mash, which I also loved nine to nine 30.

So I would get home from band practice halfway through mass every week having missed Archer. And that really felt like some kind of prison sentence to me, if that makes sense. Well, well,

Max Allen Collins: don’t understand today that in those days we did not know. And I go back to my really go back to my childhood, which would have been the late fifties, early, very early sixties, up to the mid sixties.

The idea of being, having home video was a dream. Yeah. I mean, you would, you would kind of fantasize about it. Reality was if you didn’t, you know, they would do 39 episodes of a TV show and then a certain number of them would be rerun. Not everything, certain number will be run in the summer. And [01:05:00] that was your only chance to see these.

Sumner: Absolutely.

Max Allen Collins: And so, so it was just like my favorite show. I’m never, it’s, it’s, it’s gone, it’s gone. Uh, but I do have to, I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about this, but I, I, I’ve just, I’ve got to tell you that my father, I did, I told me about him. My father was a guy into two things, sports and music. Oh, wow.

Sumner: And he not had this conversation before me. Well,

Max Allen Collins: my father who was, as you know, was in the Pacific in world war II. He, he went to a small college, uh, near Des Moines, uh, on, on a combination sports and music scholarship, which is very unusual. I mean, in particularly here, I don’t know how

Sumner: it is. No, I’ve never heard anybody have it having a combination of

Max Allen Collins: what you do.

And, you know, th th that is not, there’s no crossover there. So [01:06:00] he went on a con and he, he was in the band and chorus and played football and played basketball and baseball. And that was his scholarship. Uh, so when we, when I grew up, I never was into sports. I w I, uh, I’ve never liked to follow sports. Um, I did like to play sports.

And was that as, and that was the only time my father and I were able to bond on that part of his interest because I did, when I was in high school, junior high and high school, I did participate in sports, but I never wanted to watch anybody else play. I mean, I wanted to play, why do one want to watch, you know, uh it’s uh, to me it’s like, I just was ridiculous.

And so, uh, but, but that was the same. That was the same split between me growing up with him, that, that I would motivate toward the music. Cause it was the arts and I was interested. And so he was a high school music teacher for, for a long time. And then when he went into and worked in [01:07:00] industry to, uh, bring some real money in, because I think they were getting something like $1,800, $1,500 a year to teach.

I mean, that’s what it was. And I guess $1,500 was worth more than, but it was still $1,500. I mean, it was, yeah. It was terrible. And, uh, so he, he broke off from teaching and it was a brilliant teacher, but he started, he was the director of a male chorus in here. And, uh, I got drawn into, uh, all of the, you know, I wasn’t in the male chorus because it was too young, but they would, they did a show, big show every year and the kids would be in and I’m sure he’d only put the kids in so that I could be in it.

And then eventually came to the point where I should have joined his organization, but it’s that I have my rock and roll band. And, uh, but, but it was music and he could relate to that, that, yeah. That it was music. So it fascinates me that you had the same thing, uh, [01:08:00] a father with that, that split between these two, because they’re kind of contradictory.

Sumner: I know it it’s, it’s so exciting. Last thing I’m fortunate. My, my, my dad is still with us to this day is in his very late eighties now, but he’s always had that. He’s very, very, my dad is very, um, statistically driven. So he’s one of these sports fans, uh, who has a wealth of knowledge about sporting stats and, you know, every day of his life, he’s looking up the latest, um, the latest, you know, sporting set center.

He’s not just into UK sport. So he a massive fan of, uh, rugby football and cricket. But he is also a huge fan of baseball and American football and athletics as well. You know? So, so he’s into all of that. So, I mean, he, he he’s read all of the books about, um, the romance and the mythology of basketball. So the boys of summer, [01:09:00] all that kind of stuff, I’m one of the great.

One of the proudest moments of my life was when, um, my brother and I in the early two thousands, got to take that to Yankee stadium, to see it, to see, to see a baseball game and, you know, sit on the bleachers and, you know, have art talks and all that kind of stuff. It was amazing. Um, but yeah, it’s, but he’s got that.

He’s got almost that kind of sensibility is how he approaches art and music as well. So he’s very, very interested in somebodies over and what they’ve written and what they’ve done. And, um, an interesting, my dad’s not really into rock and roll at all, you know, he’s into every other kind of music apart from that.

I’m for him rock and roll. So, so the, the fascinating thing about talking to the old man is he’s, um, you could put Elvis Presley and then go. What the fuck is that racket, right? Or you could put out cast on, or Jay Z and he’d go, what the fuck is that rocket? And to my dad’s ear, he can’t hear the difference between the two of those, [01:10:00] which is, would you just admit to him it’s just a noise and it doesn’t matter if it’s classic rock and roll, or whether it’s hip hop.

It’s the same noise to him, which I find fascinating, but, but he’s, he’s tremendously, um, uh, sophisticated in his music tastes outside of, of, of, of that very large area outside of that, though, if it comes to jazz swing, uh, classical music, brass band music, he, he knows everything about it. It’s amazing

Max Allen Collins: what I, I think it’s interesting that the, um, The sports art combination that your father has.

And the, my father had enable them, gave them a place to go when they couldn’t be athletes

Sumner: anymore. Absolutely. Right. Because you can

Max Allen Collins: continue to be a musician the entire rest of your life. Absolutely. And I think that that had had a lot to do with it, but we, I used to tell him my father, he would, I’d see him watching stuff.

I’d say, you’d watch, vendor’s a Waylon log rolling. He would look at anything if what was considered a sport [01:11:00] and I just didn’t get it. Uh, now when we had, uh, we w we had the top team in my high school, in the, in the state, which is a big deal. If you’re the top one in the state to go to state championships, I was into that.

Cause I knew everybody on the team, but I always knew that at the university of Iowa, there was nobody from Iowa and the university of Iowa team. They went here, they went there and they, you know, they got this guy and I couldn’t transfer that. I can’t get, I can’t get excited about a town’s about, about a, city’s a hired sports team.

I don’t see how that we won. No, no, we didn’t. You didn’t win. You had a beer and a hot dog. And then what? I don’t know. I, it never worked for me, but if I could do it myself, you know, it’s like, I probably have been to in my life as post post dating my wife, I can’t, I probably have been to [01:12:00] maybe three dances and I’ve played probably, you know, 500 dances.

I want to, I would never ever go listen to other bands. I mean, national bands. Right. But I mean, local combos. Sqirl they’re the competition. I’ll go to my gig. Yeah. I have that same

Sumner: attitude about writing. I know you do. I absolutely know you do. That’s something we’ve, uh, Talked about quite a bit, actually, to flip back down to writing because as with every conversation we ever have made, there are so many avenues we could go off here and fill in hours of recording time in it talking about.

I I’m, I’m kind of, I just want to go back to something that you and I talked about off camera, by the way. Um, uh, as you’ll have heard in the us, I’ve heard what, uh, you know, max is famous writing in my intro to this show. Uh, what I will also do in the show notes for this episode is attached some of the previous interviews that max and I’ve done for my day job, uh, presenting forbidden planet TV, where we get [01:13:00] into, and we get talking in detail about some of Max’s work, particularly the stuff they hear and I’ve worked together on, which is the Mickey splines, my camera books under the whole history that is laid out in one of those interviews.

And it’s very interesting if you’ve not watched it before, and you’re interested in this conversation, I would urge you to listen to it. But something I wanted to ask you about, um, is something you mentioned before, which is. So one of my classic descriptions, if I’ve ever got to introduce, uh, introduce, um, max at a panel.

And when I say classic, uh, descriptions, I it’s a classic in my mind, not the society hasn’t bought into it as a classic, but it’s, uh, it’s, it’s something that I believe is, uh, I will always introduce Max’s. Um, the three biggest names in war fiction, max Alan Collins. How did you get, how did you end up using that name as your writing name?

Max Allen Collins: Well, we were talking about my father and, uh, I’m max, Alan Collins, Jr. Yeah, my father was [01:14:00] obviously Maxolon Collins senior. He was max Collins. He was very well known in this community. Uh, having been a teacher and having any was the, the, uh, personnel director at, uh, at, uh, the major company here in town.

And so he was max and I went by my middle name, Allen. Yeah. And, and to this day, my friends, a lot of my friends call me out. Ah, interesting. And, uh, so when I, when I sent my book in my first bookend, uh, it was by, by Alan Collins. All right. And then when I got the book in the mail, not, uh, it, the byline was max Collins, which was the name I signed on the contract.

Right. Max, Alan Collins. And when I, and when I had very little contact with editors at that point, when I asked you to call me and say, why did they put mats on? And he said, I’ll find out. [01:15:00] He said, well, and he came back and said, well, they thought it sounded more like a mystery writer. Yeah. So suddenly I’ve got my first book with my father’s name on him, not my name.

Yeah. Making it making it even more of a problem. There was a, there was a mystery writer named Michael Collins. Yeah. I mean, Michael Collins being a name. We all know. Of course that was, and it was a pseudonym for a guy named Dennis Linz.

Sumner: Okay. Right. I’m aware of his

Max Allen Collins: work. And he came and he came to me and I got to know him a little bit.

And at a certain point, he came to me and said, you should change your name. And I said, why is that? And he said, because you know, I’m Michael Collins. And so I’ve got that. I that’s my, and I said, Oh, okay. Then I tell you what, I’ll, I’ll start writing as a Dennis lens.

That’ll be my pseudonym. And then he never said anything about it again, but what, but, but, but we still it’s still [01:16:00] careened into a problem because I wrote a novel quarry novel called the slasher. Yeah. And about the same time he wrote in his series, which is, I think about a character named Dan fortune, a book called the slasher.

And then when, when they, when, when you, there were bibliographies libraries had lists of books and everything, they go M Collins, M Collins. So my book and his book kept getting confused. And so, uh, I, I thought, well, maybe I better start putting the middle name in. Yeah. So that at least it goes M a Collins instead of an Collins, but I started using the middle name and, uh, then it began being misspelled because.

I mean, they don’t get Edgar Allen Poe’s spelling. Right. So they’re not going to get my spelling. Right. Correct. Everybody uses Ian cause they tend to do whatever Alan they know in their life. That’s [01:17:00] the festival they use. So I’ve seen a L a a, and I’ve even say C a L E N with one L so, but, but then I became max, Alan Collins, and I do think it has a nice ring to it.

And what Don Westlink approved of it. He, that was his vote for what I, my byline should be was Maxwell and Collins because he told me, he said, Alan Collins is just another name in the phone book. Yeah. But max, Alan Collins is, it sounds like,

Sumner: and it does work for you mate. It’s very, very distinctive.

Max Allen Collins: Well, and that people started calling me max.

And then, so now about. Probably 75% of the people call me mats. And I’m only people I went to high school with or whatever. And some of them come up and say, I don’t know what to call you. Yeah. I just say not late for lunch. And I laugh.

Sumner: It is very interesting how that works. Right. Um, because I [01:18:00] would say about 75% of the people that I know. Call me by my surname on that’s it just like my, by my surname. And, um, and, uh, and that’s, that’s, uh, you know, that’s, that’s followed me around my whole life. This must be just something, but the cadence, my surname that people like.

Yeah. And so I’ll call you Andy. Um, I nobody’s ever called me Andy with one or two exceptions primarily because I don’t like that version of my name. So, so, so I, I never, it always felt kind of, it was felt kind of soft and babies to me. I know there are a lot of Andes in the world who aren’t like that at all were, you know, but it was, it was just not for me.

So I’ve never had, you know, people had to call me Andrew or Sumner, and I guess it’s about a 25 75. Split people away call me, I’ll be out.

Max Allen Collins: My wife calls me out. Brilliant. And so, so there, there is sometimes a confusion because when she’s talking, if you were to call her on the phone, [01:19:00] she probably referred to me.

She wouldn’t be thinking that well, he, you know, he, he knows him as max. Yeah. Uh, but I do have that. I have the situation of like when we do Christmas cards. Yeah. She gives them to me so that I can say I can write max on the ones that know me as max and I can write Al on the ones that OMI is out. Now, my agent always calls me, Alan, because he’s, he’s British and he’s very formal.

And so yeah. He’s always Allen and he always refers to me as Allen when he deal deals with people in business who don’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.

Sumner: That is brilliant. Mike, Hey Matt, it’s a mess, Andrew. I love it. I absolutely love it. Um, we are, we are racing towards the end of, uh, of, of this conversation.

So I just want to art back to something we were talking about before, um, our movie, we both love and I’ve talked about at length, you know, off camera, which is once upon a time in Hollywood. Now, interestingly enough, I recorded another episode of the show recently with, uh, Garth Ennis, the [01:20:00] creator of preach on the boys.

And, um, and he is also a fellow lover of. Once upon a time in Hollywood. And, uh, and as I mentioned in that episode, so it’s a great bloke. I know who works in the, uh, the movie licensing industry, a friend, a good friend of mine called Chris Lou, Sarah, uh, who is kind of Burbank born and raised. And, uh, and it, that movie had a whole ton of resonance for him.

But, uh, but what I wanted to mention was. Once upon a time in Hollywood was a specific way in to a band. The tired nev I was aware of, but had literally never heard any record, um, was a huge hole in my music bigger than that in, in, in in fact. And some of you helped me research quite a bit and, you know, I learnt quite a lot talking to you about them and it was Paul Revere and the Raiders, I thought you were going to save them all.

Fuck. Yeah. Cause Paul were, even though it was a of them, I had poor. Yeah. Right. Radius, I guess in the same bracket as my mind is the Batman 66 show I’m while I love [01:21:00] Batman 66, I just thought they’re essentially some kind of clown act band and they didn’t really make much of a dent in the UK charts. So it wasn’t like I’d heard them when I was a little kid in the sixties, you know, I don’t, I don’t think had any hits in the UK.

I’d have to double check that. So I’d always been aware of who they are. They were the crazy like revolutionary get-ups, but that was it. And, um, One of the things that I took away from once upon a time in Hollywood. And one of the things you helped help me learn more about was how good poor Avila. Oh yeah.

When the Raiders actually are.

Max Allen Collins: Yeah, they were a, and they were a bar band and the, um, I don’t know, at what point they adopted the, um, you know, the, the, the get-up the, the revolutionary war get up. I mean, obviously that was a response to the British invasion. Of course. Yeah. That was the gimmick. And, uh, it was a time where you did, you did have to have, have a gimmick because there were so many bands.

Andrew, when I was, [01:22:00] uh, when I had my band in high school, in the sixties, there was a point where there I live in a town of, we still are a town, not quite 30,000. It was probably probably 23,000 people. Okay. We had 38 rock and roll bands in this town. Wow. 38 and, and, and, and none of us were old enough to play bars.

So we’re all chasing the same prom gigs, the same homecoming gigs, all at the same house, party gigs. And so getting a gig was, I mean, if you, if you played in a year five times that you, you know, you were, it was amazing and, uh, so-so you needed something to, you know, to, to stand apart. And that’s one of the things they did.

And they were funny. They were, they, they knew they were sending it up. They were never we’ll work revolution. I know it was all crazy and they did steps and, but there were funny, it was, it was, it was, uh, [01:23:00] But they, they play really strong rock, you know, they did Lou, Lou. Oh,

Sumner: yeah, just .

Max Allen Collins: Yeah. And they were, they were all wet.

They’re all a Washington state bands and playing a lot of bars and, and playing a lot of R and B, a lot of R and B stuff. Uh, and so, you know, they, they, they were really, really good. They got slicker because what happened to so many of the bands was they, they, once they got popular, they, they send them out on the road on just incredible, like, you know, they do 251 nighters in a year.

And so they, they, they couldn’t work in the studio. So that’s the wrecking crew came in. Yeah. Right. And so they, they would. They would only come in and do vocals. I mean, the association were the same way. I saw the associate there. They were an incredible band and they still aren’t in the rock and roll hall of fame and they had amazing hits.

Uh, and they, they [01:24:00] could perform them beautifully. But after the first, I think two albums, it was all recorded by studio musicians except for the vocals. And then at a certain point, when the band got less popular, then

Sumner: I went back. I started doing their own stuff again,

Max Allen Collins: but that’s why there’s all that sameness.

And those guys were great. The wrecking crew was great. Yeah. Uh, you know, there’s all kinds of stories about things like, uh, You know, going into to record, I forget the woman’s name, but this woman bass player who was phenomenal, who they they’d go in and Sonny bono would come in with, the beat goes on and he’s like, well, what kind of bass part should we have?

And she goes, BOM, BOM, BOM, BOM, BOM. Yeah. I go into that studio and like, do, uh, we got to get out of this place and, and, and come up with that bass part. Yeah. But she, again, pretty much the whole song. And, you know, so you can’t, [01:25:00] you can’t take away from those studio musicians, but on the other hand, they slicked at up, and that’s why I have a real affinity for the one hit wonder kinds of bands, you know, like I love question Mark and the Mysterians are just, yeah.

Barely

Sumner: competent. Yeah.

Max Allen Collins: It’s barely

Sumner: competent. But, but the thing is, I guess, I guess the thing about the one hit is such an unusual and distinctive piece of music that it doesn’t sound like anything else. Right? That’s that’s, that’s the beauty of a lot of those one hit wonders. They deliver something.

Max Allen Collins: Son Lennon said that 96 tears was the greatest rock and roll song of all time.

Now I don’t know what he’d been smoking or imbibing at the time, but there’s something to that they actually had about five hits, but they didn’t have anything to compare it tonight. 60 years.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. W w who was [01:26:00] that female bass player? Was it Carol? Kay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She’s caring. Okay. Yeah. She was amazing.

Yeah. She, she was amazing chooser. I think she’s, I think she’s still alive actually. Carolyn so well, they were,

Max Allen Collins: they were fantastic. The wrecking crew.

Sumner: Oh, mate, that, that, that is again, I know the supremely hard degree. And I think, I think given the fact that that is such a rich topic of conversation, um, why don’t we park this right now and why don’t you come back and join me on another episode?

And we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get much more into the music conversation. I was always intending as to have, and we talked about so much other stuff as we always do that we never even got there and opened the door.

Max Allen Collins: Well, I’ll try to work in, you know, I am a member of the rock and roll Iowa, Iowa,

Sumner: two time member deservedly say mates.

And

Max Allen Collins: don’t don’t think that when I do perform and I haven’t because of COVID for a year, but when I perform with my current band who were also got into the. [01:27:00] You know, rode my coattails into the rock roll hall of fame. When I’ve been using the band and saying that everybody’s in an IOL rock hall of fame, don’t take, I don’t remind everybody.

That I’m in twice and that’s for the benefit of the other guys in the band. So,

Sumner: um, and also make just to close that and you, of course, um, had your famous, uh, San Diego comic con band as well, seduction of the innocent and selection, and soon as you and, uh, Billy mummy. Um, and, um, yeah, Miguel, others.

Max Allen Collins: Great.

And go for it. Well, I love and, and, and, and then also, uh, Chris Christiansen, who’s drummer and kind of fill in man, and then the great Steve lay Aloha.

Sumner: Who’s a, Oh, wonderful make. Did you ever see the things he did on, he did spectacular, excellent inks on Dick. I want, I think it was for, um, I think it was for a project it’s called dark dimensional, something, I think where, um, that, uh, it was relatively late in case career [01:28:00] and, uh, it was a project for Jim shooter and, um, and the combination of, of, of Steven and Steve Ditko.

It’s really quite magical. Well, uh,

Max Allen Collins: I’m going to tell you to go searching for something and everybody, anybody who’s still listening to this, uh, seduction of the innocent. Yeah. The truth hurts. The truth hurts on YouTube. Okay. Look for that because that’s the only music video we made for our album and watch very carefully.

And you’ll see Brandon Lee

Sumner: in the background. Oh, fantastic. I will I’ll find that. And I’ll stick the link in the show notes for this episode, mate. That was wonderful. Brilliant on that, on that, uh, most, most, uh, Supreme of our degrees. I think that’s where we’ll, uh, we’ll park completely for today. Mate. It’s been max.

It’s always such a pleasure chatting with you. I could do it for hours. You know, work. I could go on a recording, another two hours of this easily. [01:29:00] Well, I’ll

Max Allen Collins: tell you, I’ll tell you as my parting shot that as you can imagine, since I’ve been at this a while, I’ve been at a number of conventions and had a number of people interview me.

Yeah. And nobody compares to you, Andrew,

Sumner: you are very kind, mate. You’re very kind. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, you know, whether the truth is we’ll be on the road with some great stuff in the future and we’ll get to do it again. Absolutely. And

Max Allen Collins: again, I want to go back,

Sumner: uh, and, and I know that we’re working together on some great plans for the Mike hammer, 75th anniversary for next year, 2002.

And we will no doubt be back again, talking about that on the road, up to those publications. But if you’re a Mike hammer fan, um, and you know, max and not myself, of course are the ultimate MC hammer fans. And you don’t get a bigger Mick. I’m a fan of max Allen Collins. You you’re going to really enjoy what, what sort of, what max is cooking up.

It’s going to be something to look forward to. Yes.

Max Allen Collins: And can we mention a mass grade [01:30:00] for murder is still out there. Is it coming out in

Sumner: paper pretty soon? I think it’s, I think it’s going to stick in hardback for awhile, but it’s definitely available everywhere in that beautiful hardback edition

Max Allen Collins: we have, uh, we have, uh, we have a book coming out that.

It has been previously published, but has the, uh, Oh yeah. Previously censored version of

Sumner: the ending. Yeah. I mean, I can’t wait for that actually. Uh, and that’s coming out actually in a, in a really nice, um, a really nice trade paperback edition. Uh, yeah, I actually, uh, that’s that’s I think it’s coming out.

I’m just trying to buy a bit of time here where I’ll look at the, uh, well, look at the D look at the details when it’s actually published, but it’s very soon it’s coming out in about two months time and, um, yeah, that, that is, uh, that’s at the that’s coming soon. Masquerade for murder is available now. And so, uh, yeah, so it’s um, what is it?

It’s a

Max Allen Collins: goodbye.

Sumner: Yeah. Kiss her goodbye. That’s it. [01:31:00] Goodbye. Yeah. I’m trying to find, I am trying to find the note. I don’t know. I’ve got it. I just found it then as I was scrolling down, let me go back. I might cut a bit of the Shelly, Shelly and gout. Here we go. Right. I will do. Yeah. So that’s absolutely right.

Max. We’ve got, um, Mickey Splain and max Allen Collins kiss her goodbye coming out and paperback from Titan books on the 6th of April, 2021, and a really lovely, um, trade paperback edition with, as, as you just mentioned, max, your, um, previously sensitive.

Max Allen Collins: Yes, my, the, my previous editor who was a good editor, but he insisted that I do the, the ending over because he felt it was too much like the ending of one of the classic, my cameras from the early fifties.

And, uh, I have not restored it to what I

Sumner: had in mind. Yeah, and it’s a great read actually. And, um, and, uh, masquerade for murder, which is a small spur. Your blushes by saying has been very well [01:32:00] reviewed and continues to get really great reviews. I’ve got a great one in the daily mail in the UK the other day.

And, uh, and masquerade for murder is out. Now I’ll put the links again in the show notes, if you’re my camera fan and you haven’t sampled, I might come recently or you haven’t sample one of Mickey and Max’s books. That’s a great one to check out. And I’m not just saying that because I was the editor. It’s fantastic book.

Very, uh, max is quite rightly very proud of it. And so my that’s around me today. Hey mate, it’s always great to see you, man. Always great to see it. And I’ll look forward to speaking again soon, max. Thank you, Andrew, take care brother, all the best bye-bye

Sumner welcomes The Boys creator Garth Ennis (creator of Preacher, Hitman, The Punisher and Crossed) to Hard Agree to talk about Garth’s latest comics projects – Jimmy’s Little Bastards and Marjorie Finnegan: Temporal Criminal – before exploring their mutual love of war comics, war movies and Quentin Tarantino’s Once Upon a Time in Hollywood!

Buy Garth’s books:
https://forbiddenplanet.com/catalog/?q=garth%20ennis&sort=relevance&page=1

Follow Sumner on Social Media:
http://twitter.com/sumnarr

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO
Follow DENIO on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/denioband/
http://soundcloud.com/denioband/
http://twitter.com/denioband/
http://instagram.com/denioband/

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/spoilercountry/
http://twitter.com/spoiler_country
http://instagram.com/spoilercountry/

Kenric Regan:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

John Horsley:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?
https://youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/spoilercountry

Transcript

Hard Agree – Garth Ennis Interview

[00:00:00] Sumner: Yeah. That’s that’s that gun right there. And what he’s done is he’s walked throughout the land. Brilliantly coming, crosses the, the affable side of the rule in class, getting everybody to call him by his first name, embracing that and acting the lovable buffoon. But actually he is truly, truly fucking dangerous to me.

Garth Ennis: He’s a nasty piece of work. I remember after the coalition ended, one of the two liberal members of Cameron’s cabinet, not the leader of the liberals, but the other one said that when he was, he was asked was asked about the Tories and what it was like to serve alongside of this particular generation of stories.

And he said, you, he said, you could take David Cameron as an example, but really it doesn’t matter which one. He said that individually they’re quite charming, but collectively they’re appalling

when those people [00:01:00] get together and those nice polite smiles and the debonair and mannerisms and so on go by the wayside and you see what they’re really like, they’re monsters.

Sumner: Yeah. And that’s fucking right. All those Bullington club cuts. All of them. , they’ve all been that they’ve all had this worldview inculcated in, but they’re better than everybody else.

And they believe that they absolutely believe it to the core. Yeah. They’re genuinely unpleasant. It’s like these people here go, wow, that was more mostly once. Actually we had quite a nice chat, you know, you know what I mean? You can always take any of these people out of that environment because that’s the human way is that when you meet people, one-on-one very few people, even if they’re truly a monster are going to call you a conceive face or slap you or something, it’s just a lie that you have an instinct as you want a positive response.

Who was

Garth Ennis: the guy who used to do letter from America? Was it Allister, Allister cook, good cider from America. He had an anecdote about being at a party at the American [00:02:00] embassy in Berlin, in the thirties, and somebody knocking into him and spilling his drink and apologizing my dear chop. But let me get you another drink.

I quit. And it was Hitler.

What’d you say? Oh, I’m so sorry. So sorry, please. Where do I get this smile?

Sumner: Okay. Let’s just get straight into it, mate.

Yeah. So go ahead. Pretty good. Andre. How about you? I am very well. Thank you, mate. Very well. Indeed. Braving the cold to have this conversation and and just being highly amused by the the conversation about the global political catastrophe. Fuck that we’ve just been having before we started.

Garth Ennis: Yes, yes.

Love what you’ve done with the place.

Sumner: Yeah, that’s fine. You know, thank you very much. So yeah, kudos. Kudos. Not to me, but to some of my fellow country persons who I won’t get into resuscitating all that again. So, so, you’re working on a whole flotilla of new books at the moment. What can you tell me about some of them [00:03:00] I’m thinking that could we start with talking about some of the aftershock books?

Garth Ennis: Sure. I’ve got two new. Books for aftershock that I’m working on. One is SQL Jimmy’s bastards. Yeah. Which it’s called Jimmy’s little bastards. Yeah. More GM’s bone type shenanigans. And the other one is a worse story called the lion on the Eagle. And that’s one of the tendons in Burma in 1944 which is one of on, at the tackle for awhile.

So those will be I’ve only just started them. I might to they’ll they’ll both be out sometime next year.

Sumner: Oh, amazing. So, so, obviously I’m, I I’m like a big fan of what you do with your wall books and that’s part what we’re going to talk about in a sec Jimmy’s bastards. Of course, had that. I really enjoyed the first series of that, which had that, that I don’t want to give it away for when he hasn’t re read it, but it has that brilliant sort of narrative flip part of the way through.

Yeah. How did, without spoiling too much, how did that world come to you? What was the jumping off point for, for [00:04:00] creating that in the first place?

Garth Ennis: I, I think it all revolves around exactly the turn that the story takes it you’re talking about. Right. Because when you think of James Bond I wouldn’t say I’m a huge fan of the character.

Every couple of years, I go and see the movies and then I kind of forgot them. And then I carry on. It’s fun to see it’s nonsense. It’s highly enjoyable nonsense really, but there is something interesting in the idea somewhere. And of course, with, with the idea I had for the first series, which is that all his legitimate offspring, all of Jimmy’s bastards come together at once and they have that particularly unpleasant plan to get them to the thing revolves around that.

I won’t, I won’t actually mention for anyone who hasn’t read the book, that was really the starting point. You know, what, if all of blondes. Kids who is, you know, abandoned. He probably was like the window the next morning. What if they all grew up [00:05:00] and came to get him? And if they did hardwood, they get them, you know, and it was very much a let the punishment fits the crime kind of thing.

Yeah. And apart from that, you know, it’s a, it’s a chance to sort of take all the GM’s bond troops and

Sumner: have fun with them. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I think the thing that works about it it’s it starts off very much like what you’d kind of expect your take on the, on the bond genre. It’s a B, and then of course it’s it’s And those are well versed in reading your work.

I think the great thing about what happens in that book is that was not, that’s not a term that I would have guessed, you know, and and actually it can be a bit of a rough read in some respects, you know what I mean? And and I say this to somebody you know, it, wasn’t approved, approved and is not easily shocked, but I did very much enjoy it.

Can you, can you give us a flavor of what Jimmy’s little bastards is, is, is gonna, is going to do what’s that going to explore it for? Well, you

Garth Ennis: you’ll see if in fact, you look at the end of the first series, you get a hint about what happens [00:06:00] in the new series, but essentially someone else has decides to have a pop.

Jimmy of course, Jimmy is not in great shape anyway, because you know, the first series left a bit of a diminished character and his his partner, Nancy, she had the kind of tick over well that’s, that’s where we see them at the start of the new series as a new threat looms for Jimmy. More than that I’d say in the same way, as I can’t say too much about the first series.

Because it, it blows the big reveal. It it’s the same as that really. I can’t tell you too much about the new one or the twist that the whole thing revolves around we’ll we’ll be given away.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes, that makes complete sense. And then and then of course, you’ve got your, your other kind of a big new series, I guess, is Marjorie Finnegan, temporal criminal that’s right.

Which is a wonderful title. So, w w w

Garth Ennis: well, that, one’s what it sounds [00:07:00] like. It’s a bio of this girl, Marjorie Finnegan, who is a temporal criminal, who just races up on that, on the timelines, stealing stuff. And it’s, it’s a comedy it’s, it’s pretty action packed. The artist is Garonne Suzuka. Yeah, it was a terrific artist.

I worked with them on a very different book called a walkthrough hail, which was a very bleak horror book, but gran’s one of those artists that can really turn his hand through anything. And he’s done a terrific job on this. So plenty of action. Plenty of laughs. Marjorie herself is quite a character.

She’s maybe a little bit touched Marge. Really she’s out for fun. She likes to treasure Lamees as she calls them, but, but really she’s out for fun. You know, having, having access to time, travel technology and being able to go anywhere and do anything. I was maybe going through her head a little bit.

Yeah. And she certain fines the temporal police departments, number one agent on her tail and of course, high jenkson [00:08:00] shoe. And there’s there’s a an evil plot and evil scheme underway by unimaginably appalling villains to which two of them

Sumner: stumble across. So it’s, it’s, it’s all the classic Ennis ingredients with some time travel.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. I remember, I think actually what provoked it more than anything else was I was watching let’s show Vikings. Have you seen that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff. And I was watching a scene where, you know, it was a long ship show was up in the fuel word on everyone’s shirts themselves. Oh, no Viking. And I find myself thinking one shot.

One shot from a decent sized gun, and you could blow that thing out of the water in seconds, which is a completely irrational thing to think when you’re watching a story about Vikings, but sometimes when I’m watching historical dramas, I think that, I think, you know, if you could just hurry up and invent the machine gun, the airplane, [00:09:00] the heavy artillery, all your problems would be solved.

And the scene that then played out in my head kind of formed the basis for Marjorie Finnegan. Yeah.

Sumner: I get that. And of course it will be such a satisfying thing to be able to do in that moment to pull out the Gatling gun, to pull out the rocket launch.

Garth Ennis: Yes, of course. And, and, you know, B people have done that.

I I’m, I’m aware that, you know, stories like that have appeared before. I just wanted to do my ITA call it. And I also wanted to explore the notion of how do you fix it if. If there’s a nutcase, like Marjorie running around stealing things and you know, blasting anyone who tries to kill her well, while she’s, she’s up to her her fun and games.

What if you’re the one that has to come along afterwards and kind of put time back together? So that say, if she shoots somebody in the fourth century, their entire bloodline isn’t wiped died, and our present day is, you know, you know, the old [00:10:00] saying like, yeah, you go back to the time of the dinosaurs stamp on a baby Brontosaurus and IEPs never develop in demand.

You know, what, if you have to, what if you’re the one who has to fix that, you know, to clean up the maths behind the temporal criminal. And I got quite a bit of fun out of that, but you’ll see when

Sumner: it comes out. So who’s, who’s publishing the book of

Garth Ennis: it’s upshot, which is I believe the The actual company name for the arteries, artists, writers, writers, and artisans.

Yeah. They’ve gotten quite a few books. It’s axle Alonzo.

Sumner: Yeah. Okay. It was an old part of you as a coach.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. Is in fights, you know, myself and Rob Williams and a couple of others who Health titles with it. Just tend to think of it as oxygen’s thing. Yeah. Like it takes a minute or a few seconds.

Oh yes. That’s right. Artists writers are designs upshot. Yeah. But really you’re just thinking it’s Axel’s thing.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. Got it. I spoke to Rob the other day, [00:11:00] actually. Funnily enough, it was the first time I’d met him. You know, I’d never run into him before, you know, we now and again, you have those people knocking around the industry and you know them, but you’d never actually, it was just one of those things, but you know, he’s a good bloke.

He does either.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. And a good writer.

Sumner: I know. Yes he is. For sure. So, Marjorie Finnegan. So the guys that did it, when is it coming out? Do you know?

Garth Ennis: It starts in may. Right on grounds drawn about half of the run. That’ll be it issues. Yeah. And he’s working on an issue five now, so we should have planned the, on the bank by the time, the thing actually, ships,

Sumner: is it going to be one and done or is it designed so that it can be

Garth Ennis: it could go on, you know, it could at the minute I’m kind of happy with it, but with it as it is, but not impossible that it could continue.

Sumner: Yeah. And, and to go back to the line and the Eagle. Right. So, so that’s your after shock a Burma book. So [00:12:00] interestingly that you mentioned that my, my oldest friend who’s the The now retired like five boss and Liverpool who I grew up with. His dad was in Burma and was actually in a, in a, in a Burmese prison camp and really went through the ringer before we like came back home.

And I’ve heard some of those stories on as a kid and it’s pretty harrowing shit, to be honest. So, so, how did, what, what, why, why, what, what was it about the conflict in Burma that spoke to you about that series? Why was that something you wanted to, to look at?

Garth Ennis: I think it’s, it’s been on my mind for quite a while.

Most of my war stories world war II stories have involved the the European war. You have touched on it before I wrote one called dear Billy. I wrote another one called the Tokyo club, but this is this one, which is directly about the war in Burma between the British and the Japanese. This is one that I think I wanted to do, because I want, I want [00:13:00] to cover as many of the kind of disparate elements of that war aspects of that war as I possibly can.

Not just the kind of almost multi-national elements that made up the British army, but also the Indians on the GRCA. And there was a Nigerian unit, I believe the Americans and the Chinese who under Stillwell who who are getting involved as well. So there’s that, there’s the sheer savagery of it.

But at this point, Yeah, the Japanese had behaved with a kind of a brutality and that was rarely seen elsewhere in the war. You mentioned the prisoner of war camps. It’s interesting. When you read the memoirs where the guys who went through those comms, inevitably you get to the bit where, where the guy will say something like as bad as we had it, as bad as the Japanese treated us, it was nothing to the way they treated the locals.

Yeah. The Burmese or the Chinese or whoever. It was unfortunate enough to have been invaded by the, by [00:14:00] the Japanese. I mean, they, they treated them worse than animals. And what the, what they got up to in China in particular, which is one of the things that story touches on is horror beyond imagination.

Yeah, really. So these are all the things that went into this story and briefly the chin that’s. We’re a British unit recruited from the regular British army to be a long range, penetration force sort of embryonic special forces unit who would go behind the Japanese lines cause havoc.

And there’s always been a good deal of controversy over exactly how much they achieved. There, there have been questions about the notion of special forces from the very beginning, essentially re revolving around the idea or the question. If you go to all the other units in your army and you take the very best troops for your special forces, a check, what does that do to those other units [00:15:00] at the end of the day, make up the vast majority of the army on halftone instead of the.

Cool black ops and secret missions at the special forces guys do. They’re the ones that have to do the unglamorous, but frankly, more important work of meeting the enemy army on the battlefields and smashing it. What are you really doing with the special forces thing? And it’s not balancing out that the very notion of SF has, has kind of revolved around ever since its inception.

Sumner: That’s very interesting. And that’s something I want to

Garth Ennis: look out in the story as well. Yeah.

Sumner: That’s, that’s very interesting. Now, now, now war quite rightly is, is one of the one of the genres and one of the, you know, kind of, narrative sources that you’re, you’re, you’re very well known for in an era when there aren’t that many people within the comics business, certainly writing about, you know, brighten up by the war anymore.

You and I grew up in an era where, and in the UK, there was a shitload of war comics. [00:16:00] And and what, what’s the Genesis of you identifying so much with that Shauna and, and, you know, being so interested in writing about it. What was your kind of first exposure to world war two? And where did your interest in it come from?

Garth Ennis: I think that just as. Almost everyone else in the industry read their superhero. Comics, loved them were up. And then when they got into the industry wanted to write the word, draw them. I didn’t read superhero comics as a kid. I mostly work home. It’s also 2008 D but it was mostly war comics. So it’s just that same notion of wanting to do the things you read as a kid.

But as an adult, the difference being that with war comics, of course you find out that these stories are based on reality. It’s not like Superman and Batman and Spider-Man, which are fantasy and always will be. You’ll never meet anyone like that. They will never, [00:17:00] you find out that the stories and things like battle commando and war, picture library, and so on, actually.

Alive for the massive hyperbole that was applied to those stories were based on things that happened. You, you come to understand that you see the movies, you see the documentaries, you read the books for me, it, it sparked an interest in military history that sort of. I, I think we a bit in my teenage years, but reappeared in my late twenties.

Yeah. So that when I’d enjoyed a bit of commercial success with preacher and Punisher and so on, and people were saying whatever you want to do next, we will take, it was more stories. I’ll do war stories. That was my thing from childhood. It’s just that it had been more of a roundabout route than it is for a lot of people

Sumner: in the business.

Another that’s very interesting. Of course, since then, since having that opportunity and doing like the war stories, books for vertigo, and then [00:18:00] you’ve managed with various publishers too, you know, it’s the analogy for me would be dude to like create blockbusters and then take some time out to do the personal projects.

That’s essentially your relationship with a war zone right now. Isn’t it?

Garth Ennis: Yeah. That’s that’s right. I mean, a lot of it is opportunism. If a new publisher comes to me or any publisher comes to me Independent usually and says we would love to get a project from you. Well, I’ll, I’ll typically say to them, okay, if you want to wait for the next, what would you say sort of broadly speaking, preacher, ask at adventure, you know, the stuff I’m known for the kind of crazy over the top action packed stuff, or the grim is hail horror material you can wit because those come along rather infrequently, you know, I, I have to wait for the thing to percolate in my head.

Like Marjorie, like a walk through hell. Yeah. Or I have a blood [00:19:00] half, a dozen worst stories that I could start tomorrow. Yeah. Generally. Yeah. What they’ll do is they’ll take a war story, knowing that if we can establish a good working relationship on that, I can I can then bring them something else later on.

That’s the way it was with aftershock. They began with dreaming Eagles, which is my Tuskegee airman book with Simon Colby. And from that we established the relationship that that gut Jimmy’s bastards going on, the walks through hell going and so on.

Sumner: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think, I think that’s a great way to, it’s a great way to do it.

And with the success you’ve had, you’re, you’re in that lucky position of being able to, to use that chip, which gives you what you want. And, you know, in fact thinking about it, that we first met working on a, on a war book, which was the battle of Britain series that I did with WildStorm when I was at IPC.

Right. Which I love the way that turned out. I remember you saying at the time that you had a second story in you, it, it didn’t [00:20:00] come to pass. Well, I would have loved to have

Garth Ennis: seen them. Yeah. I mean, I suppose. Rebellion must have it now. Right?

Sumner: Definitely got it. Now mates have definitely got it.

Garth Ennis: So I mean, I could, I could do another bottler.

I could do more jobs

Sumner: know. Yeah. I would love to see more Johnny red. I thought the I thought the Johnny read that you did, which she did for my current place of work tighter. That turned out really well. Actually, if you, if you know the character, you must have been pleased with, with what you did there, because I know he was always a favorite year.

Garth Ennis: I was delighted. I really was. I mean, I couldn’t have worked out better largely because of Keith Burns name on it. He made it because if you’re going to do Joanie red, I think you’re going to need an artist who lives and breathes that stuff. The CMY I do. And who’s going to be able to produce our work.

On the same level as Joe Cahone and John Cooper, you’re going to have to have something that lives up to them and Keith, through that, you know what I mean? He aims, as I’ve said before, he’s the artist I was [00:21:00] waiting for all those years. Really. You know, the guy who, who thinks about that stuff the same way I do the, he has this stuff living in his head the way I,

Sumner: yeah, I, I, what I loved about that book and I, this isn’t really a spoiler because of the nature of what that book is.

I love the way you kind of, gave Johnny a happy ending of sorts, which is, which is basically similar, Kyle’s assumed would delude him. You know what I mean? As, as a reader and as a, as a, as a big fan also, also I think the thing about burns is he gave he gave Johnny arc brutishness in his appearance, which was absolutely spot on the minute I saw it.

I thought, yeah, that’s right. You know, that feels right to me. Yes, I think so.

Garth Ennis: I mean, Kowloon always drew him as a sort of little box street scrapper, which is what it was, you know, he was a scholar, he went into the air force with a chip on his shoulder and Cooper made him more of a, kind of a tough guy, traditional hero, like a bigger blow.

I think he found a [00:22:00] nice halfway. Between the two. You might see some more journey read soon, as much as I can say on that.

That,

Sumner: that, that makes me, that makes me very happy. Mommy. That that’s awesome. Well, now that we’re talking about war on comics, how much did you ever do much of a, of a retrospective dive into the DC war books?

And the reason I’m mentioning those is, is that, is it clearly that the Marvel war books are nonsense? They’re essentially as are the Marvel westerns. They are basically superhero books that just happened to be set with Alan command. I love subject pure and it’s Alec commandos, but it’s not really a, it seems to me that the DC war books are much more of a, kind of a legitimate attempt at telling serious war stories than the Marvel books were.

Did you ever get into those very much? Do you familiar with any of them?

Garth Ennis: I didn’t know them as a kid. [00:23:00] For the same reason. I didn’t know that the other DC titles, I wrote a couple of things towards the end of the nineties. I wrote enemy and I wrote unknown soldier. Yeah. And I’ve done a couple of Marvel characters as well.

There was the fandom Eagle.

Sumner: I remember that really

Garth Ennis: once I was able to do my own war stories. Yeah. There didn’t seem to be as much need I mean the DC titles are interesting. The art is fantastic. Canada. Yeah. Cuba.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Garth Ennis: But the books themselves, because they were done under the code counter is sort of.

He’s constantly constrained by not being able to show really the reality of what’s going on in a way that they were able to do on bottle and Armando. Not saying that those were, you know, X-rated Gore fests or anything, but were able to, you know, [00:24:00] push the boundaries a bit more. Once I got into doing my own more stuff, I was, I really kind of left out behind the acception.

Funnily enough would be with the Punisher who I was able to do Vietnam stories with and Nick fury, who I did a kind of a cold war book with with them, with those two, I was able to write war stories that I think were. Every bit as near the knuckle as anything I’ve done in independent comics.

Sumner: Yeah. May as a reader and you know, a fan. I, I agree. I mean, I, I love those series. I thought I really I’d see more of those fury books. You did any time, you know, they, they worked out really well.

Garth Ennis: You might just be seeing something. So, I mean, I’ve, I’ve mentioned this before, so Marvel won’t be too upset if either there will be another Vietnam Punisher book, which Nick fury will feature in.

And it will kind of pick up after the events of the fury [00:25:00] series from a few years ago.

Sumner: That’s fucking brilliant, mate. What my hope is that every time I mentioned someone, I want to say that you are then going to go. Yes, that’s the, that’s the that’s the talisman you go. Yes. I’m actually doing it. Yes.

I’d love to see it. Did you, by the way, did you given how close you were to Steve Dylan, someone I’ve always been amazed. Hasn’t been reprinted by Marvel us in some way, shape or form. Is that Nick fury strip? He did for the whole comic when he was 16. And he did like, it’s like, it’s like, I think it’s about 20 weeks worth of two page stories I presume.

Garth Ennis: Oh yeah. I’ve, I’ve seen it because every, everyone points to that and goes, Christ, look what he could do when he was 16. It’s amazing. Right. You know, I, I do not know. I don’t know, maybe because it’s Nick fury and there’s only ever limited interest in that character anyway. And maybe because he’s the old Nick fury, rather than the sun.

And one, a little, to be honest with you, I have no [00:26:00] idea where Marvel is at with that stuff anymore. Anyway. I do

Sumner: not know. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s, it’s interesting because that is a series. That’s a series. If you haven’t speak to a, you know, a hardcore Marvel fan of a certain age, who’s American, they’re nearly, always shocked by his existence and they don’t know an exit, you know, it’s generally really unknown outside of like people.

I like my age, your age, you might have actually read that book when they’re a kid over here in the UK. Nobody else knows it. You know what I mean? But the story’s not brilliant. Yeah. Peaceful. Yeah.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. That’d be worth rebranding just on that basis alone.

Sumner: I think just for this, you know, significance of, of Steve’s career and to, to, to flip into the I would, I don’t know, like DC Warbuck I was just going to ask you about is if you’d ever read it was so there’s famously there’s the the can Kanagawa and Cuba slash John Severen series, the losers, the original iteration of the losers itself was a [00:27:00] conglomerate of three different war books that had sort of come to an end.

And they put the lead characters of each of those, if not books, they’ve series into, into a disparate unit together. So you’ve got like a, so you’ve got captain storm and Johnny cloud, the Navajo erased gunner and Sarge permanent series together. And there was quite a lot of incidents in that book.

Right. And there’s beautiful artwork by several. But then I want to ask you about is there was an app the time unpopular, 12 months of that strip, where can I go? And all the regular world guys came off it and and it was actually written and drawn by Kirby. Okay. Have you ever seen that series?

Garth Ennis: That’s that’s the kind of thing that.

I’d have been unlikely to see, you know, the more secure you get in American comics, the further

Sumner: you, you it’s.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. Generally I tend to know the stuff best that, that I’ll learn more. And people [00:28:00] like that we’re working on back in the nineties. That’s where my variances of American comics begins. The war stuff.

You know, I, I looked at a few old ones when I was doing the IES and, and unknown soldier. Yeah, but and while, you know, I admired what I saw in terms of the artwork, at least I haven’t really gone into it in any great

Sumner: depth. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That, that, that, that makes a lot of sense. I think what’s, what’s interesting about the reason I mentioned that series is because it’s really unlike anything else.

Kirby did. Because Kirby of course said like some follow Wars was a frontline from trauma during the war. And, and it’s him trying to accurately document that experience via writing a drawing, the losers. He can’t take the Jack Kirby bombast out of it. So it’s not exactly realistic and it’s not even hyper-realistic, you know, it is, it’s still essentially, you know, at owes a lot to [00:29:00] his CPO work and that, that would wild framing, you know, book there’s.

You can tell there’s a level of authenticity in the witches. Not necessarily it, the stuff about the category work that I found fascinating years later is I always assumed reading Carnegie’s work, that he fought in world war II and he didn’t, you know, he, he was in the coast guard, right. Cuba and uh, Joel under the editor, they fought.

But but I always assumed you were T you were seeing the they’re kind of they’re exaggerated, like memoirs of somebody who’s there, you know, that’s the kind of voice it had to me, but I guess it was their influence, but it’s just interesting watching Kirby.

Garth Ennis: Paul, was it bald Hani painted? Yeah, for sure.

He he wrote a piece I read and once he, he talked briefly about his own war experience, I think he was an officer on a us destroyer. In the Pacific, but he talks about coming to DC after the war and getting a job there. And he says something [00:30:00] like I’m paraphrasing here, but he says something like I met the man in charge of their war comics department, who I saw a half and seen little man who I soon realized for war service.

He had come up with a formula for war comics that had nothing to do with the reality of war, but it was a formula that worked guess he’s talking about which I thought sung the whole thing up quite nicely. I mean, reading kind of your stuff, reading all those comics your, your description is.

Is one that rings true for me. I mean, it’s, it’s full of bombast and hyperbole and unlikeliness on. I just can’t really get into it for that reason. I think because of work home anxiety, I read as a kid, my idea of what a war story should be.

Sumner: And of course those UK books, particularly ones, a bottled water, they’re much more humble, you know, they’re exaggerated, but you know, and come [00:31:00] with the commando stories, they’re much more humble and reserved and like British in their depiction and still rooted in the reality of everything.

Right? Yeah. They’re a lot more

Garth Ennis: brutal to generalists. Absolutely. Yeah. I protect with the commander and the picture library books, because those are self-contained stories. You cannot be sure at all that our hero is going to make it I’m quite a few times. He doesn’t It’s not to say that these are verite.

It’s not to say that these are the true face of war. They’re just a little bit closer to it. I think that in the American stuff which we must remember was constrained by the code. That’s why counting come up with this formula and the first split what he might’ve done otherwise it, well, that’s an interesting speculation.

But the British, the British books of the seventies and eighties, I think were a little bit, they were closer enough to reality. I think to make them not bit more interesting for someone like me.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that’s well said before moving on, I actually you’ve made me [00:32:00] think of something which is Bob Haney is actually responsible for probably the wildest Sargent rock story ever, which I don’t, if you’ve ever seen this, but there’s a, there’s a, there’s a famous issue of brave and the bold, the Batman team up title that was always written by Haney and has amazing artwork by Jim

Who could, you know, he is, captain is always super masculine and he could draw any hero and make him look good. Right. And there’s a, there’s a Batman and Sergeant rock Teamup, which basically has a bunch of terrorists realizing that Haney and a Paro are creating the book. So they actually get involved with Haney and Apollo in real time during the story and and basically take a pyro hostage and, you know, Haney’s got to figure out how to like, stop them, taking the pirate hostage so he can finish it, finish the art on the book.

And it’s, it’s, it’s it’s, it’s genuinely enjoyable. [00:33:00] 22 pages of nonsense.

Garth Ennis: I think grant Morrison, let her read that at some

Sumner: point. Well, yeah, I think you’re right. I think you’re right. I think you might have based 30 years of writing history on reading that story. So, so, you know, given, given your interest in the genre do you have any particular favorites or

Garth Ennis: I mean, just thinking back. So the first war movies I would have seen as a kid there were always the, on the one hand you have the larger than life ones. The ones that Tarantino referred to as guys on a mission movies that everyone knew exactly what he meant. Yeah. But in this context it would be word Eagles there Kelly’s heroes I’m saying, and then you have the ones that they make a decent stab at trying to capture the campaign or the bottle there.

That they’re concerned with like the longest day. Yeah. Like a bridge too far, like a battle of Britain, [00:34:00] like the battle of Britain. These of course were where the cast of thousands. One is where they get every movie star who’s who’s around at the time to do five minutes and then they cut up a movie together out of it.

You know, so John, when Richard Burton, you know, those would be the ones I started with. It was two sort of veins of war movies. And you know, I love those to this day. And then in, in more recent times, I suppose, things like discovering some old classics, like, ice cold and Alex.

Sumner: Yeah. It’s such a great film.

Garth Ennis: It is. But also some of them, the movies that were made in more recent times, long, long after, you know, the events, concern like a midnight clear, which came out in 92 or 93, or when trumpets feared these, these movies are much smaller in scale, but they’re they’re good movies, you know, they’re I would love to see someone try to do a decent, a British war movie of this kind, [00:35:00] because that’s something that that’s something that it seems to have been lost.

That idea. The British will complain constantly about American war movies and the portrayal of the Americans as the only vectors. But, but the British film industry does absolutely nothing about this. It’ll turn out stuff like darkest or, or the MTA, which, which are just costume dramas set in, you know, nicely appointed Oak panel, dining rooms and so on.

They’re also not exactly accurate, but that’s another story, but I would love to see the British, have a crack at a decent or movie, you know, the way they used to in

Sumner: the fifties. I completely agree with you because I think there are some story I’ve thought for a long time. There are some key stories.

Yeah. Which is brilliant. I know I’ve only ever been told as either part of one of those big old cast world or all star cast, world war two movies, which I also love. And I, I think I wanted to explore was the [00:36:00] demarcation between those two, all singing, all dancing, big cast movies, and then the flights of fancy men and men on a mission film, which I also loved both of those things.

And I think the interesting thing is that. Within some of the scenes within say a bridge too far within the longest day, particularly there is a complete movie in though, which if you made it now in the present day, you could adapt properly something like Pegasus bridge, that’s crying out for a movie to be made of it, but you can make such a great movie with contemporary, British actors about Pegasus bridge.

You know,

I

Garth Ennis: mean, if you, if you go to Pegasus bridge and I was in Normandy about three or four years ago and spent a week in the, in that area, you know, looking at the various different battlefields and beaches. And so, Pegasus bridge is amazing because you see how close together they managed to put the three delighters done on her, close to the bridge and the comparatively small.

But a [00:37:00] space in which the, the bot alternate players with the British running out of ammo, you know, praying for the tanks to arrive you know, fortunately they do in the Nick of time. Yeah. That would, that would be a terrific. So, I mean the the scenes in a longest day with Richard, Todd. Yeah.

Who, interestingly enough, was a British paratrooper on the day. And I think. You know, plays a senior officer in his unit, in the movie, in the actual unit, the servant you see, you know, you see the enormous pressure on him as he’s exhorting his man to hang on a bit longer. And he’s thinking hold until relieved hold until relief, because that was, there was one of the orders he was given.

I mean, that’s, that’s just such a fantastic set up. Like you could

Sumner: hang a whole movie off. Yeah. I, I, I couldn’t agree more. I, I, I really couldn’t do, are you, are you a fan of the the recent space of Russian war movies?

Garth Ennis: I have not, I think I know you’re talking about things like the white, white target.

Sumner: Yeah, yeah. The battle for what is it [00:38:00] like the battle for Sevastopol, all those kinds of things.

Garth Ennis: I, I mean, I’m aware of them and I’ve seen bits of them, but I haven’t really gotten into them properly to

Sumner: be honest with you. So I think, I think you’d enjoy those of you check them out because what the Russians are able to do, but some extent coded in their relatively bleak nature.

I think, you know, is, is that is that their war movies are genuinely anti war in a way that there are in a way that even the best anti war movies that have come out of. The UK out of Hollywood, it seemed to me I never truly untoward because they’re still exhilarating. And quite often people you identify with are still alive at the end of the movie, and then seem to meet the trick to making some extraordinary antiwar is you’ve got to see the people you identify with go through a pooling times and not survive because you need to feel that sense of devastation and loss, but [00:39:00] the, the Russians XL in what in Indiana.

And so when you watch these movies, they are truly antiwar in a way that thing, other Mo and movies about world war two, I’ve never experienced that sensation where I’ve switched the film off at the end, and pretty much say the same frame of mind that I might’ve had watching like Requiem for a dream or something where he’d gone well, That was brilliant.

And I never want to watch it again. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which I think there’s a whole genre of movies in itself, which are, you know, great films that you can only watch once because they’re just too emotionally bleak.

Garth Ennis: I mean, one Russian film that I did see, although it’s, it’s from quite a while back is common.

See if you’re familiar with that. It’s it’s about a young boy who joined the Russian partisans behind the lines in world war II. And it’s very grim, very bleak. There’s a lot of frankly, dead space in it, but there are a couple of sequences you see [00:40:00] that exhibit a kind of brutality I’ve, I’ve never experienced NFL before or since vicious, vicious stuff and handled very matter of factly to which somehow adds to the horror.

So, yeah, come and see. That’s that’s one that I think it fits the idea of what you’re talking about, because I don’t really want to set strict that one again.

Sumner: Yeah, no, it was actually come and see you. Is that at the forefront of the ones I was thinking of in terms of, I don’t think, I think that is a great film.

You can’t watch more than once really, you know, unless you’ve got some, it’s not quite connecting in your brain, you know, because it’s just too horrible to fucking watch. And again, I think the dispassionate, the thing you’ve touched upon the dispassionate almost matter of fact way in which it is put together is precisely why it’s so powerful.

Yeah.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. I mean, no one thinks of the scene. I won’t say what, what happens exactly where the boy and the girl are running, like hail out of their village. Terrified because of the, yeah, I think the Germans had just shown up w the boy looks over his shoulder [00:41:00] and sees a site and what we see, which is a site he’s going to take to his grave.

And then he, that it’s face from that. He’s got to keep running. He has no time to process that he has no time to stop and stare. So the director doesn’t let us do it either, but it’s in your head just as it’s in his head. And you can just imagine that churning away really for the, you know, from that home for him,

Sumner: for the rest of his life.

Yeah, for sure. I think, I think that particularly is one of those things that once you what’s that Sr, it’s always that you’re never going to leave that alone. I think, I think that’s very true. Were there, did you see Dunkirk. Yeah. So w what did you think? You

Garth Ennis: know, I liked it I realized straight away, or almost straight away that it was not going to be kind of a factual representation of what happened at Don Kurt, because to do that really, you would have needed CGI, which I believe he was determined not to use.

Yeah. You would have needed to fill the air with smoke, the beaches with [00:42:00] smashed vehicles, the sea with ships, many of them singing on the sky with aircraft. You know, there was never something not happening at Dunkirk. What he did and said was he emitted something that there was very much a, kind of a representation of what happened there.

You had the courage, you have the card issue, you had the betrayal, you had the dates and see you have the salvation. It caught the spirit of Dunkirk. With necessarily being a definite, proper representation of everything that happened. I liked it quite a bit. Plus, you know, the Spitfires.

Sumner: Yeah. Well, of course the splits are brilliant. I agree with you. I think it was really quite accomplished and definitely my eye. Cause I, I alternate between being very impressed by Christopher Nolan and then thinking, ah man. Yeah, that’s us. That’s the emperor’s new clothes really? You know, I particularly don’t like interstellar, which essentially is, is hooked around the [00:43:00] MacGuffin that he’s too lazy to explain because he can’t.

So, you know, the whole thing hinges upon, you know, this mythical like faster than light way of going around the universe, but which they never explained. Cause you can’t explain that because you know, it’s pretty much impossible to come up with and, you know, th th th the mystical elements of it, of, you know, of Matthew McConaughey hiding out in a bookcase and all that kind of stuff.

At that point, I was like I’m not really feeling this. And I wasn’t really feeling. A tenant, because even though it was so ambitious, I think, I think normally he’s so assiduous about the rules of the universities he puts together. But I thought there was quite a lot of holes in his representation of funnily enough time travel, something that you’re you’re working on at the moment.

Whereas there are films of his that I sit and watch them golf. Like that was really, I mean, I really enjoyed inception personally. I really liked the way he put the rules of that universe together. And I thought Dunkirk was just a masterclass in how you ratchet up tension and [00:44:00] interest by simultaneously portraying three timelines without it becoming confusing.

I mean, that was such a lot to do to go first that someone had took two weeks to submit two days, two hours and have them play against each other in real time. I think

Garth Ennis: it helped that he had, he had a good cast there for sure. You know, obviously The two young lads. I think one of them, I might’ve touched because I’d been out of the UK for so long, but one of them was applied star.

Sumner: That’s absolutely right. Harry, whatever his name is. Yeah. From one direction, but

Garth Ennis: then you had know the child, the Spitfire pilot was you know, and even though he wears the oxygen mask and the goggles and the helmet for the whole thing, you know, he just, he just brought a cross that he channeled that kind of calm, well, trians RAF pilot thing, you know, like not professional at work you know, constantly having to recalculate his fuel, a lot kind of stuff.

I thought, I thought all that really helped, you know, getting the right personalities in there to help [00:45:00] move this.

Sumner: Yeah. Yeah. Funnily enough, you absolutely took the words out of my mouth. About my next point would have been about that Tom RD performance, which I think it’s, it’s that highly accomplished and, and everything you’ve just said it’s true the way, the way no one put that together, because you would think that essentially a very sort of compelling art to like him who has his complete face covered for the whole thing.

So all the usual box had Trixie, although he has done it before, when he played bane, I guess, but all that box of tricks, he radiates exactly what you’ve just said, that high level RF training and your heart’s in your mouth. I think at the end of that movie, when it ultimately resolves with the sequence that involves him thinking, Holy fuck, you know, you’re going to crash.

Are you going to, are you going to get the plane down? Are they going to kill? You know, you’re really in it by that point. And when,

Garth Ennis: When he, he does take the mask off and we do see his face and he’s watching the Spitfire burn. [00:46:00] And you see that when he’s captured, he doesn’t even din to notice them because they’re not worth his time, drag him away and he’s a prisoner, but they’re beneath them.

I thought he, I thought he accomplished something pretty special in that little moment there. And that

Sumner: was good. Yeah. I, I agree completely. I mean, he, for years, he, he was one of those actors and thought, well, you know, is, is all this stuff about Tom hall? Art is kind of hyperbole, but then each performance of his, I would watch, I would think.

And I have this framing about Leonardo DiCaprio by, by the way, can be a different actor. You aren’t, I would always set a couple of years ago. I’m not really a big fan of his, but every time I watch him in something I’m like completely absorbed with what he does. You know? And even though I wouldn’t describe myself as a fan, I think, I think those two guys, two very different actors I’ve put together kind of a breadth of performances that are.

So accomplished you can’t help, but respect them. Do you notice? I

Garth Ennis: agree. Once upon a [00:47:00] time in Hollywood.

Sumner: Yeah. I fucking love that film

Garth Ennis: now. That’s my favorite movie of the last couple of years. I’ve enjoyed last few movies anyway, but that one that was icing on the cake. I, I can’t think of anyone else making movies today, who so expertly communicates the absolute joy he has yes. In filmmaking and being able to do these things, you know, in in getting actors to do stuff and getting, getting these lines of dialogue out there are putting them on people.

It’s Mazi. Putting these scenes together, these highly unlikely, ridiculous over the top scenes. There’s no one else who seems to be thinking in those terms except

Sumner: him. I know he, he he’s, he’s an army of one. I couldn’t agree more about that film that is far and away. My favorite film of 2019, actually nothing comes close and I think it was the first time I saw it.

[00:48:00] I’m actually in a second. I’ll tell you about the second time I saw it. It was just kind of a similar deal, but the first time I saw it was. One of those times where you, you experienced genuine euphoria in the cinema. You know what I mean? And I was like, I would love to be there in that moment. Like with one of my mates driving that car around LA in 1969, I would fucking love to experience that.

And I so completely enjoyed it. The S such a, I mean, I’m sure we could do an hour of one of these things, just talking about that film, because it is so rich and there are so many beats and there are so many moments for me. The chemistry, every it’s so beautifully cast alpha, but their chemistry is so spot on.

And that to me is a complete distillation of, you know, when you have those, those friends, when you’re, you know, I’m a bloke. So I can only talk about it from a male perspective. But when you have those, those male friendships that does yours have shorthand [00:49:00] encoded in it, and you genuinely like each other’s company and you’re different, but there’s a mutual respect there it’s there’s a lot of joy to be had in those moments.

Right. And you can see them just savoring each other’s company, whether it’s good times or whether it’s bad times or whether it’s moments of extremity. And I think one of the things he does really well because it touches upon things. I’m very interested in like the old Western era at Warner brothers and whatnot in the fifties and all those movies.

He does the recreation’s so well. And if they’re not exact recreations that they’re re they’re created in a way that you just really want to save it and enjoy it. Yeah,

Garth Ennis: because he, because he lives and breathes up, he wants to bring it alive

Sumner: in that way. Well, one of the things he does is the way he puts a tanty, you know, stamp on everything.

So the scenes from banty law are completely authentic. When you look at any of those old Warner brothers Westerners, at one point, I think one of us had seven westerns on the go at the same time, including [00:50:00] things like Sugarfoot and Maverick of course, and all that, literally seven westerns on there.

And it looks a lot like wanted dead or alive the Steve McQueen show, but he puts that Tarantino twist on things. So there’s actually a lot more death in those clips than you would ever see on network television in the fifties.

Garth Ennis: It’s just exaggerated to the point that it makes you laugh. But. But in the sense that all he’s done is taken something very familiar, a little bit further, you know, four guys fall off the horse, the horses he, he nailed that perfectly.

Sumner: Yeah, absolutely. Right, mate. And what I love about when you say it the first time, because you know, you, you don’t know what he’s going to do, but you know what it’s based on, you know, the Manson killings so that it like he always does. He is an expert in mixing tones on screen and, and is, is, is proficient at it in a way I’ve never seen anybody be able to do it.

Like he can do it and the way he can rock it back and forth with all these emotions. But you’re watching that [00:51:00] amazing extended scene where Brad Pitt goes out to spawn ranch and everything takes a very sinister w tone of foreshadowing, you know, Suddenly, you don’t know if he’s going to get out of there alive.

Yeah. And as you’re watching it in real time, it’s like, Oh, Holy fuck. What’s going to happen. Things have taken a doctor and then it becomes, and that starts out. Amusing becomes very dark suspenseful. It ends on an amusing note, but that sets you up for the, for the final scene where you’re thinking things again, stop feeling darker and darker and darker, which he then resolves with this incredibly violent humor and, and acts of violence that outside of that are heightened world is created.

You begin, Oh, Holy fuck. That’s too much. You can’t watch Brad Pitt briefly beating a woman to death. But, and yet I was sat in a cinema full of full of young women, you know, full of a mixed audience who are, who are laughing their asses off at that [00:52:00] scene. As it went down, you know,

Garth Ennis: it’s a brilliantly made saying, you know, we’re left in no, Doug about the incredible sinister evil of those characters, you know, they may come, they may come off like bungling idiots in the car.

And I do like it when one girl gets out and just runs and likes

Sumner: it. Yeah.

Garth Ennis: These are very bad people who deserve what they get, you know, you just with Charlie had been with some

Sumner: nice. Yeah, yeah. Right. I know you do for sure. It’s supremely cathartic when you see that happen. Because up until that very moment, you’ve got this fear gnawing away at you that you’re going to see something Pauling on screen and you know, and it washes over you would that, cause it’s funny when he did the same trick in in Inglorious bastards, which is up for me, a movie that I half, like, I really wants it.

I really, I really wanted to see Tom and Tino’s men on a mission movie. And if it had been that I would have just been jerking off in the cinema, I [00:53:00] would have loved it, you know? And, and I, I w if, for me, it always kind of ground, so halt with the Paris scenes and the, and the cinema scenes and all that as proficiency as they are.

It wasn’t really what I wanted to see. Right.

Garth Ennis: Yeah. I had the, I was, I was almost the opposite. I, I liked the movies too long as the Inglorious bastards weren’t in it. Right.

I like the stuff with the, you know, evil SS officer that he was brilliant. I liked I particularly like the scene in the basement, you know, with, Oh yeah. Ordering Meghan and McKesson.

Sumner: He was phenomenal. Right.

Garth Ennis: He was the best thing. It watching that movie, it made me feel like. If you were enjoying a particularly good issue of hell blazer or something, and you flip the page and fuck the, put the justice league. Yeah.

[00:54:00] That’s what it was like. That, of course that is an experience that you could not enjoy. Yeah. Thank you. Or at least what, you know, you were able to around that time. But it was, that was the last movie he made that. I didn’t enjoy. After that, John go on, then the hateful lid. It’s amazing there, you know, those, those three in a row are

Sumner: excellent.

Yeah. I, I completely agree. They’re supremely accomplished, I guess, to close out and Inglorious bastards. My issue with that was among the ones I’ve just mentioned is that the thing about him changing history, and once upon a time in Hollywood, I found super cathartic and a relief and I was like washed over with, Oh, thank Christ.

We’re not going to seal up fucking horrible shit. Oh yeah. Brilliant. Great. So everybody is like, why I remember watching everybody get fired at the cinema and everybody who was on a high at the end of that movie at [00:55:00] the end of what’s wrong with Inglorious bastards. Once he went into Terentino’s verse history, my issue with that was every other war movie I’ve ever seen.

Even if it’s insanely over the top and cartoonish, like where are your stuff? Which I love unlike Kelly, Sarah, which I love, I love like the dirty dozen, which they still don’t change the basic fucking facts of the war. Right? So I, it felt like such a narrative cheat to me because I was aware of the fact that the movie had to be ending in the next 10 minutes.

We’re in that fucking theater under there with Hitler. And I’m like, this film’s going to finish any minute now, how the fuck are they going to get out of this? How are they going to do? I, I don’t, I just don’t get it. And then when they, when they, when they waste Hitler, which is enjoyable to watch some machine got in his face, I was like, okay, that’s a nice beat, but it’s like, Oh, I see.

The way you resolve this is just by changing fucking history. Okay. So [00:56:00] everything I’ve been expecting, it was just a much less clever resolution than I would have previously expected from him. I thought he was going to do something, you know, where I’ll be like, Holly cuts off, man. That was very clever. It was just like, Oh, I see.

So you’re just going to kill Hitler. That was a massive disappointment to me.

Garth Ennis: There’s Christoph waltz, whose character is, you know, evil incarnate, who they could’ve legitimately killed instead. Okay. They brutalized them. I bet they kind of swore. So again, there’s that, that’s no fun that I wouldn’t like it to happen.

But at the end of the day that guy’s made a deal with U S intelligence to go and live in, in the States presumably enjoying the life of Riley. And I said, well, plastic surgery sort data. And that’s that to me is this weird. Sort of pointless twist that the film takes where I’m thinking that you have set this character up as unimaginably appalling he’s tortured and terrorized all these poor [00:57:00] people, you know, he’s responsible for so many murders and so on, but.

Ultimately, he gets away with it. Yeah. When you’re going on there,

Sumner: I couldn’t agree more because I really thought that what they were, what he was setting up is that, you know, you have a character called the G wanta. Yeah. And you have a character, the Eli Roth character. Who’s the bird you, who is, who is who you’ve shown.

His thing is physically beating Germans to a pulp. I thought, I thought that the conclusion was going to be watching Christoph waltz in gruesome detail, get beaten to death. And then liquidized on camera by Eli rock. And that would feel amazing. And you’d be like, that fucker got everything he deserved, you know, you’d feel good.

Right. You don’t need skill hit, but you know, so I, I completely agree. And yet that never happened. Nope. Yeah. So it’s, it’s very disappointed just to flip back to once upon a time in Hollywood. So, I’ve got this the [00:58:00] second time I saw it, I got this friend who works for the studios in in LA. He he works in licensing.

He’s a dude called Chris Lou, Sarah, like really, really good really good Italian American bike and days worked in the movie business for quite a long time. And he he he’s one of these guys he’s really into cinema. And I say, he’s gone to the tailors in London where he’s got, he’s got a replicated version of like, Sean, Connery’s three piece suit, Goldfinger, all that kind of stuff.

Right. You know, it’s a level of movie fandom. I would never personally that’s too much for me, but, but that’s his thing. Right. But I said, after a story, he’s LA born and raised. And in fact, he’s, he’s like born and raised in in Toluca Lake in Burbank. And I was like, man, you’ve got to go and see this.

And he was like, you know what, I’m not going to bother because. I’ve kind of gone off Tarantino. I don’t really like Brad Pitt that much. And don’t really like Leonardo DiCaprio that much. I was like, mate, I’m telling you you of all people, this is like a love letter to Burbank, [00:59:00] like a love letter to Hollywood.

You just got to trust me and you’ve got to go. And he’s like, okay, I’ll do it. And then like, literally three months later in the middle of the night, it’s about four in the morning, London, I get a phone call from man. And he’s like, Holy fuck. I’ve just been, see once upon a time in Hollywood, it is amazing.

It’s the film of the year. You’re dead. Right. It’s fucking brilliant. And he was just Ray or me on the phone for about half an hour. The next time I went to LA for work purposes, he was like, I want to take you out and do something. And he took me to see the movie for a second time at the new Beverly, which is like Tarantino cinema in Los Angeles.

Yeah. So we go see that. And then he takes me for dinner at one of the Mexican restaurants that features in the movie, you know, not booth where they sit when they get shit faced before they, before they have the, yeah. So that was my second time seeing it, which was, you know, for different reasons as you fork is the first time.

But I really think it is one of those films that [01:00:00] really like lights that fire of, of absolute devotion, a certain brand of genre fan, you know, I mean the

Garth Ennis: kind of thing that honestly because it is. Much as I enjoyed them, it is better than as last two as well. Like it takes things to another level, the kind of thing that I didn’t think I was going to see again, anytime soon that is used to lights the fire that way.

Yeah. I wasn’t expecting, I wasn’t expecting to see something like that again

Sumner: at all. No, mate, I couldn’t agree more. And I think on that note, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a good place to wrap up this time around. And yeah. Thanks for, thanks for joining me. Thanks for joining me for high degree GAF and thanks for getting into your new projects and the subject close to both of our hearts, which is a world war two world war two, entertainment, war movies.

It’s been great chatting to you, mate. All right. Thank you. Take care of yourself, brother. I’ll see you soon. Cheers. And [01:01:00] that wraps us up for that. Thanks mate. That was great. That was awesome. I mean, you know, if you enjoyed that chat, I’d love to do another one and get some of the, I mean, I realized that I think there’s a lot of this movie stuff and a lot of those other genres that we could talk about.

I actually, I wanted to get into some fuller, which I don’t know if you’ve seen any of his so

Garth Ennis: the big red one years ago. Yeah.

Sumner: So I mean, Brigid, one’s great. I would recommend if you ever get a chance to check it out, you should check out the two Korean war movies he made, like back to back. In roundabout 1950 under the first one is the steel helmet, which is often referenced by Tarantino.

Well, yeah, and the second one is fixed beignets and the fixed beignets happens in winter. And and they both started a guy called Jean Evans who was a well-known like utility player, like character actor, but that the steel helmet, the shot are minuscule budgets. I think somewhere out in California.

[01:02:00] But the, there, the thing about followers like a Kirby, he was a frontline infantry man. And and, and, you know, famously he never shouted action. He used to fire a pistol at the start of every single way, and all this films are at high, extreme melodrama, but they’re also rooted in a kind of realism of his like GI experience and the both about white fucking, I don’t know, 70, 80 minutes, long

Garth Ennis: steel helmet and fixed

Sumner: bayonets.

Yes. Check them out, make, cause I’m sure you’d enjoy them. And in fixed painters, Evan’s character is his lead characters, Sergeant rock, funnily enough. And and, and it’s got a similar name, not dissimilar name in the first one. They’re very much of a piece, but they have a kind of bleak emotional reality that you know, given the fact that it was shot within the Hollywood system in 1950, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So if we, if you’re up for doing another one of these or another couple of these in the future, we will. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Great mate. I’ll I’ll, I’ll be in touch about doing some forbidden planet TVs to line up the knee [01:03:00] books. All right, mate. You enjoyed the rest of your Sunday. Thanks for joining me.

I appreciate cheers. Take care, brother. All the best. So yeah. Yeah. Cheers mate.

Sumner welcomes incomparable British super-artist, co-creator of Watchmen, Martha Washington, Rogue Trooper & Kingsman – the one and only Dave Gibbons – to Hard Agree, for a freewheeling chat about Dave’s career (from the early days until now) and their mutual love of comics, with plenty of stops/detours along the way, digging into comics history & celebrating the industry titans who inspired (and continue to inspire) Dave!

Find Dave online:
https://twitter.com/davegibbons90

Buy Dave’s books:
https://forbiddenplanet.com/catalog/?q=dave%20gibbons&page=1

Follow Sumner on Social Media:
http://twitter.com/sumnarr

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO
Follow DENIO on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/denioband/
http://soundcloud.com/denioband/
http://twitter.com/denioband/
http://instagram.com/denioband/

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/spoilercountry/
http://twitter.com/spoiler_country
http://instagram.com/spoilercountry/

Kenric Regan:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

John Horsley:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?
https://youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/spoilercountry
Transcript

Hard Agree – Dave Gibbons Cut Interview

[00:00:00] Dave Gibbons: Andrew asked me anything, basically it’s the best I’m sure. I’m sure. I’m sure I can still bat it away into the long

Sumner: grass. Well, I’ll do a little bit of an intro. Do a preamble intro. You know, we’ll do a little bit of an intro now. So I I’m privileged to be joined by none of them, Dave Gibbons. How are you, mate?

I’m very well. Andrew, how are you? Yeah, very well. We were just talking off camera about the about the whole the whole scenario with the pandemic. And I’m pleased to see that you were forging ahead through that

Dave Gibbons: mate. I am. I am. And I have had my job as I’m a respected elder citizen, and I’m very relieved to have it, to have had it.

And I I urge all your listeners to get their job as soon as they possibly can.

Sumner: Absolutely. I’m looking forward to getting mindset in, rather than later, some of my family I’ve had those already. My folks are still with us about this, and I’m very pleased that you’ve had yours and I’m sure the world of the comics [00:01:00] faithful.

I’m very pleased that you’ve had yours as well. Mate.

Dave Gibbons: I feel like I have super powers now,

but caution is the, is the watch word, but it’s certainly a strange on quite a profound level. It’s funny. It’s like a lot of things that you, you can become anxious about. It’s there, but you don’t see it until it goes. And I actually felt generally relieved and thinking, well, that’s a step in the right direction.

We’re now moving away from that. Or B slowly. I mean, I wouldn’t want to overstate it because in many ways I’ve been very lucky as far as the whole lockdown thing is concerned, you know? As I may have said the last time we spoke and lots of my professional colleagues have said the life of a comic book artist is a fairly locked down thing.

Anyway. So to sit in a room on your own and work from home is something I’ve done for the last 50, 50 years or more so, and you know, we, we live in a reasonable part part of the [00:02:00] country, so we’ve had it fairly good here, but I I’ve just got that feeling of optimism and that if we all just keep study for a bit longer, you know, it’s gonna be okay.

Sumner: Yeah. Amen. Amen to that. I think it’s just a keep on playing the course wrong and you know, get the vaccine when you can. That’s the absolute key. Absolutely. So Dave, I saw some in the day that made me think of you. And it was, it was a piece of yours that I’d never seen before. And it, it was it was from the, it was from the British weekly anthology comic and, and I’m, and I’m putting that description in front frame, but he’s listening.

He is American, you know, because of course, anthology comics is how we all came to comic books in the UK. British comics are weekly and had multiple stories in, in, in black and white printed and mano. But I, I ran into a story. It was, I didn’t even know existed. And it was the spike in the Sputnik from, from the Hotspur.

It’s I didn’t even know you’d done anything for, and like the [00:03:00] mid seventies.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. Well, when I broke into comics, I mean, if we’ve already covered this before, cause to be honest with your Android to so many of these zoom calls, but I think, Oh my God, am I telling that guy, the anecdote that I told him the last time, but just briefly, the way that I broke into comics was by hanging around fleet by who the major publishers of.

Co comics next to the DC Thompson in the sort of early seventies. And I got to know a few people there and I got to know an agent by the name of Barry Coker, who said that having seen my fanzine work and odd little filler stuff that I’d done, that he thought he could get me regular work. So I threw my lot in with him and he was very well connected to DC Thompson up in.

Dundee. Yeah. And he, and they published a lot of kind of science fiction, adventure kind of stories, which he could see was meat and drink to me. Yeah. [00:04:00] And so I worked on a number of really quiet, obscure titles for DC Thompson. A fan was kind enough to scan in and send me kind of PDF versions of nearly everything I’d done for them.

And there was the spine, the Sputnik, there was the wriggling wrecker, which was about a virus that ate concrete. It was the year of the shark man, which was about an invasion by sharp man from under the sea flying tripe pound, which was about spotter planes in world war two Lysander high wing mano planes that were used as spy planes, into drop people in and out of occupy.

Occupied France. It was the cat and the mouse, which was another world war two thing, spring Hill Jack. It was a kind of an updating of the old Victorians, new Jack character. But in this case, he was a Victorian policeman whose secret identity was the sort of spring Hill Jack. And the great thing about working for Thompson’s was they [00:05:00] didn’t pay very well, but what they would do is give you really good guidance, really good critiques.

I used to take the pencil pages into my agent who would then spend them up to Dundee and they’d come back with notes and scribbles and post-its on them saying how I could improve the storytelling. That was mainly what they were. Focused on. And I got such good practical unpretentious, you know, actual craftsman teaching from them that it was an invaluable experience.

Along the way, I did ghost a series that Ron Smith, who later went on to work 2008 that he drew called Nick jolly the flying highway, man about this reincarnated highway, man who had this robot horse that could fly. They’re just such mad stuff. And if you look at a lot of the stuff that DC Thompson did, it had that real, almost hallucinogenic, you know, impossible nature to it.

And also a lot [00:06:00] of the stories were actually repurposed from texts stories that had run decades earlier. So a staff member would retire a pros story into a, into a comic strip sequence. So they were never in a way great comics, but they were great stories, great oiling stories. And it was really there that I learned how to consistently tell stories in pictures on a weekly basis.

Sumner: Now that that’s really very interesting because I, we, you and I definitely haven’t talked about that before and you’re absolutely right. The, the thing about the DC, all the DC Thompson adventure books compared to the fleet way, IPC ones, they’re really quite pedestrian. But as you say, they have this very off-kilter imagination sort of running through them, like light like marbling.

And also to a point before, as I recall, fleet Wayne IPC had really got into embracing science-fiction and, and the kind of [00:07:00] storytelling that, you know, appeared in battle and then became the storytelling template for 2008 date, which you were very much part of before that they DC Thompson were doing things like.

Creating their own superheroes and whatnot. Yeah. Cause you had a King Cobra is one of those,

I

Dave Gibbons: think that was also drawn by Ron Saigon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There were lots of things that would sort of on the, they weren’t kind of American, but they had a kind of. Slightly British feel to them. You know, they, they, they did focus on things that you didn’t get in Fleetway, which was much more traditional.

That was all school stories in sportsman and world war two. And you might get the odd science fiction thing. But I mean, the strange thing is I haven’t spent most of my life quite successfully joined essentially science fiction. It was always held to be very unpopular, which was why when they came to launch 2008, it was a real uphill struggle [00:08:00] because the kind of common wisdom was science fiction doesn’t sell.

But I think that the 2018 proof there was an appetite for it. And I think there was something about the DC Thompson approach. That was it wasn’t attempting to be worthy or great literature. It was just young. It was just tall trail. That was the kind of thing. And they also. Had great people working for them.

I mean, it was a non-union outfit. It was very much a patriarchy, you know, that if your face fitted and you were prepared to do the work, you had a job for life, but you did what they said at the right state. They paid. But you look at the artist who they had working for them, people like Leo Baxendale and, and Dudley D what can Sue is one of the most amazing artists ever to work in comics?

So versatile, you know, and when you think of his desperate Dan, which was, it’s such a bizarre thing, he was a cowboy and he had a, like a little six year.

Sumner: Yeah. But he lived in a town in the North of India.

[00:09:00] Dave Gibbons: It was just crazy, really crazy. And so this, I think there’s something very endearing about the kind of you know, pop boiling, and sort of really weird stuff, I suppose, because it was low rent, nobody cared, which of course has always been one of the things about comics, you know, that wow. They just can’t make, so you can, you can do do anything just as long as you fill the pages up, you know,

Sumner: Yeah, no, it’s so true because I, I definitely remember when I was first exposed to DC Thompson comics.

And a lot of them was when I was at primary school. And I guess when I was about, let’s say when I was about 10 years old, that’s when warlord first appeared right there, Wilbert. And definitely at that time, having the, having the choice, age 10, between warlord and between battle now, backlit, is it by any stretch of the imagination?

Actually a much better comic, but for the 10 year old me, I remember clearly pro preferring the more [00:10:00] homogenized adventure that was in warlord backer was too edgy for me, age 10, age 15. I loved it. But back then, those kind of very straightforward wary Northern English tales really appeal to me.

Dave Gibbons: It’s. Very strange.

I mean, this is perhaps a slight diversion, but I was, I was reading something about Carlos Iscara the, the light color, Cara. Unfortunately, you, I knew a bit and who actually worked through the same agent Bard and press features and the, and he was a hugely successful, very, very popular comic book artist.

And I think part of the key to his success was it was you saw what looked like a kid could draw it now. No kids. Yeah. As well as Carlos Carlos was a wonderfully talented, very capable artist, but there was an informality about his work. There was no barrier. There was no kind of, Oh, look at this artwork, you know, this is beautiful.

It was just, I’m not even, I’m looking at the [00:11:00] artwork. And it was, it used to remind me of, yeah. Why in your maths, rough book is school. You know, you draw like a, a Stoker or something and you drove a bullet’s cup coming out of it, a lot brand dotted line of tracer shells. And that was kind of Carlos’s approach.

And I seen Carlos draw and I visited his studio and he used to draw with the kind of tools that you would draw in the back of your maths, Ralph, but with you and I like, yeah, A bit beaten up old fountain pen with it with a bit dingy, old ink in it, and, you know, scribbled out on the page. But of course, when it was shopped for reproduction and printed, it looks absolutely great because he knew exactly what to do.

And I think maybe the DC Thompson thing kind of fell into that camp as well. There was nothing off putting about the surface of it. It was quite welcoming and he was very informed. And also, although to my taste now it was very overwritten. There was a lot to read in it, you know, picture had a capture, each picture had a couple of word balloons and quite [00:12:00] tiny mechanical type.

And, and so, you know, I think, I think it was a great place to work because it was the. The sort of real ground floor of comics, it was nothing pretentious, nothing aspiring to be art. It was good. It was good. Simply told stories with imagination. And obviously because of the, you only have to look at the sales.

I used to get. A huge crowd pleaser.

Sumner: Yeah, no, for sure. What’s I think interesting was I was super worried of this the first time I encountered your work. And now that you’ve laid what I realize now, now that you live through some of those stories that you did for DC, Thomson is some of those are familiar to me.

So I must’ve read them at an early enough stage that I hadn’t really clicked. It was, it was you. And what I mean by that is. When when 2008 D started now, I bought it from the first issues. First this year I was, I was a paper boy back at that point in the, in the Liverpool suburbs. And I, you know, I, I remember it [00:13:00] leaping off the cancer that, you know, when I got paid my wages and I took it back home.

But from the very first moment that I read Harlem heroes which I think started in issue one. Right. What was obvious about your artwork is that you had what felt to me like a very American sensibility compared to, from the moment I saw your stuff. I thought, man, you know, I, you, for the first time, I, I remember thinking I could really see your artwork in a DC comics book, for example, which, which is ultimately where it went.

And I was that within you? Was that something that, that had you been, had you had a lot of access to U S comics in addition to the British ones.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. I mean, growing up, I read lots of English comics and lots of American comics as well. And I suppose that’s why my style was kind of adaptable to English eyes.

It looked kind of American, but I think to Americanize, it didn’t look American, which of course was one of [00:14:00] the, well, just to step back and take a look at the whole thing. If you were drawing for DC Thompson, what they wanted very much was for you to draw in a kind of house style, a fairly unobtrusive style, a style that was all about storytelling, not about artistic flourishes.

So in a way you were encouraged to be vanilla. You’re encouraged to be. Straight forward in the way you approach things and the way you laid laid work out 2008 D the brief was that everything looked different and exciting. And there wasn’t a house style that everything had new, fresh, exciting artwork, but I got the gig doing Harlem heroes because they got a lot of artists to try out a lot of English artists, artists called Barry Mitchell, who was a wonderful football illustrator.

Great, great artist, wrong Turner. Who’s a science fiction artist. He was one of my favorite artists when I was a kid and they got a lot of Spanish and Italian artists to try, and [00:15:00] nobody could give the Harlem heroes, the look they wanted. So it took me, who’d been schooled in. Superhero comics to draw them flying through the air.

Like superheroes flew, flew through there with very sleek costumes, with no re wrinkly bits or no bunching up or no, kind of to practical looking details. You know, they look like a vision of a flying gold or something like, like that. So that kind of worked to my advantage. And then when DC comics came along, I think what, what they found, what they were after was us British artist who drew, who understood American comics and could draw in a way that wouldn’t be too shocking to the Americans, but still we’re a fresh flavor.

You know, they had a particular flavor and a particular DNA that the indigenous American comic books didn’t have. And I think also just to continue on my thesis for a bit longer, that we were looking at the U S [00:16:00] from outside. So the things that took our imagination and our attention. Well, the things that were every day objects and size to Americans, I’ve said this before, you know, things like the fire hydrants in a New York street with objects is huge fascination to me, although they wouldn’t even be noticed by the average new Yorker walk down the street or the wall street

Sumner: that was on the 10th.

Yeah. Which I,

Dave Gibbons: as far as I knew that COVID made up like right. Yeah. The rest of it. So we were able to look at the the American web silica America and American characters with a slight outside his view. So in a way, this being sort of translated mid Atlantic or able to go either way, I’m sure it was one of the.

Big positive factors, you know, in my career, but also what was a big, positive factor just to stay. Once again was the wonderful grounded training I got from D C Thompson who really were the school of, of basics. Really. You know, [00:17:00] we must see this character’s face. We need to see the action here. We need to see this key, you know, these things that tell, tell the story.

And then if after that, you want to give him a bit of artistic style fine, but that wasn’t the point of the

Sumner: exercise. I think that’s so fascinating to hear you say, because the interesting thing about DC Thompson comics of course, is if anybody’s listening to this and you’re an American fan of Dave’s America comics fan, while you might have some passing knowledge of the IPC and Fleetway comics, because they include 2008 D and because they include the wool books that have so heavily influenced Garth Ennis, for example, I think.

There are very few American comics fans who will have ever been exposed to a DC Thomson book, or even, or even know what they are, you know? And and it, it, it’s so interesting to hear you talk about that period of time.

Dave Gibbons: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s a very interesting thing because not only did I sort of get, I start with my first [00:18:00] rate, regular work from them, but Brian Bolland did quite a bit of work for me.

Not quite as much as me even make McMahon, he went on to draw dread. He did at least one, maybe two of their science fiction, pocket digest books called star blazer. Quite a lot of us. And I think Graham Morrison. Yeah. You used to write for those science-fiction books as well. So they were, they were where you started, if you were starting out and you weren’t completely there, that was a way you could.

Yeah. Kind of like in the States, if you work for something I’d know, like Charlton comics,

Sumner: I think that’s great

Dave Gibbons: analogy, you know? And so it was, it was just great, but it wouldn’t have been without for me without an agent, because obviously they were up in Scotland and my agent had a very good relationship with them and was able to get me right.

Break in the work from, from day one. So yeah, so that is a fairly little known, [00:19:00] but a hugely formative part of my comics career. And I suppose it’s true for many people. My career began with 2008, probably even DC comics, but I mean, I worked for DC Thompson’s for good three years, you know, So it was a considerable chunk of my early time.

Sumner: No, it’s, it’s very interesting to you. You talk about Dave and I think the, the Chelton analogy is a good one because. I, if I remember correctly, the deal with charter Chelton is it was essentially owned by a printing company. Its existence was down to keeping the presses rolling in between commercial jobs.

Dave Gibbons: Absolutely apps. Absolutely. That, yeah. I mean, they were primarily printers and comics were a good cheap way of keeping things going, but people like John Byrne had his first stuff and he went on to be a massive star in American comics. Where is he now? But anyway, and I, I, [00:20:00] I have to say that because I know John a bit and I love to tease him.

And Donna of course was on up there and Joe state as well, he went on to work.

Sumner: So, and, and it was a big refuge for Ditko each time he was between doing jobs for the majors. Right. So he wasn’t working with diesel model. You always defaulted back to shelter. Yeah.

Dave Gibbons: And it’s, it’s rather interesting because in that case, and again, the thing that happens with low rent staff is that sometimes I don’t care what you do, as long as you fill the pages up my guests, that was the deal with John.

So Dick CO’s able to. Rattle through this stuff, drawing just the kind of thing he wanted. And I think by that time, I mean, he went in and out chart on a few times, but even after he fell out with Stanley, he knew that he had somewhere where to go, where his work could be published and he creates some great stuff for Jami.

Did. Captain atom who loved the artwork. And of course we slightly [00:21:00] rode on that for a doctor Manhattan in a Watchman, particularly the little nod of the hat where they try and put a costume on Dr. Manhattan. And he’s actually got that kind of chain mail, Dick co-captain atom thing, and the little helmet as well.

So yeah, I mean, yeah, it’s, it was strange. I used to think of Charlton comics at the time as being a bit weak and not really worth bothering with, but the more I look at the stuff now, the more intrigued I am by it. And I suppose that is a parallel, even though with the stuff I did for DC

Sumner: Thompson. Yeah, for sure.

I, it, th they are very interesting job and comics. I think that in some respects, they’ve got a kind of a sort of dark energy to them. And because there’s, the, their distribution was so spotty. It was like some of my favorite single issues of comics come from the Chelton era. There was a. There’s actually a brilliant run that they published on the Phantom, it started out and it was Jim , who [00:22:00] I’ve always loved.

And, and then it flipped to Don neuter and and the Don Newton era Phantoms, I’ve got these beautiful airbrush covers, but if you, if you read the comics, they’re actually very dark and they kind of unlike any of the Phantom stories I’ve ever

Dave Gibbons: read. Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. I completely forgot about gym apparel.

And of course he went on to be a mainstay of DC comics and Don Newton who unfortunately passed away when he was quite young. He had a real kind of muscular illustrative quality to it. So, yeah. Yeah. And I find, you know, Andrew, let me finish that shot. I’m going to have to go over to my drawer and pull out some of these challenges because you’re giving me

back

Sumner: my high school.

No, it’s wonderful. I think you’re, I think both what Newton and pyro had in common, even though they’ve got very different styles, is they both had a kind of hyper-masculinity. So the. Characters that they drew. And if you look at the male, I mean, Gemma Paros like male figures are really super male. [00:23:00] Like he’s Bruce Wayne looks very, very masculine, you know?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like somebody from a kind of fifties old day Ray movie or something, you know what I mean? Hey, he’s not a guy. Who’s, who’s his Batman doesn’t facially doesn’t exist in the 1960s or seventies. He’s definitely a kind of, he’s a Sam fuller leading man type, you know, to

Dave Gibbons: me.

Yeah, that’s true. The other thing I still like about Jim powers work. Yeah. I can sort of identify with that. Is he used to do his own lecturing as well. Oh, not to me. He always gave his work a real integrity and it’s always been a great advantage to me to do my own lecturing as well. So apparel again, I mean, he has had a revival along the way, but he was one of these work horse artists who just turned it, great stuff, die off to die.

And I remember reading an interview with him and he would do a page a day. He would get up in the morning, pencil it out, electric by lunchtime, ink it in the afternoon on the pile and other [00:24:00] page done. Ready to go. So I admire. I admire that work ethic, which is like the work ethic I used to have before I became semi retired, but then other auntie come on.

Sumner: Exactly, exactly. Or you’ve got to enjoy your icon status mates. I mean, you’ve got the gaps, but as much as you can out of it, I think I think with the, with gem particularly in later life, right towards the end of his career, I guess the last decade or so he there was a period of time when he no longer ranked himself and he didn’t do his letters, but that very lengthy period, maybe 30 years of work, we did his own inks and letters, all of his run on brave.

And the bold, for example, I think the great thing about him is. He did all of those brave and bolts with Bob Haney, you know, a hundred plus issues or whatever. And there’s no, he there’s no hero. He wouldn’t make look good. Yeah. He never found anybody in the DC Canon that he couldn’t draw, you know, the same way that, you know, you get Kirby, he’s a genius, but he couldn’t draw a Superman.

Right. I couldn’t actually do a Spider-Man either, you know, Jim Porter could literally [00:25:00] do or anybody. And they were always in safe hands with them. I thought,

Dave Gibbons: yeah, he was very much. And I mean, I’ve always aspired to be the kind of artist who just rolls his sleeves up and gets on with it, you know, and. I mean, Alan Moore famously said to me, and I have had it said by other people that once they realized I could draw or anything, they asked me to, they felt they were in safe hands.

I’ve always taken a great pride in adaptability or perhaps having a style, which is sufficiently informed by the general world of comics that you can, I, or you, can you, you understand how different artists work? I would also have to say, I mean, he was an inspired writer at times, but Bob Haney was probably not the easiest writer to work with because some of that stuff was crazy.

I mean, I’m talking about DC Thomson and their stuff was occasionally a bit kind of hallucinogenic, but Bob Amy’s stuff was, you know, but I guess Jim apprentice just rolled his sleeves up. Okay. This I can go that [00:26:00] next page, you know?

Sumner: Well, Haney was like famously dismissive of the like the nascent DC continuity, right?

And so back in that area, and then all that stuff was first fans were first making their imprint felt and continuity was becoming important. He knew he always ignored that in his brave and bold stories. And I think one of the stories you must be referencing on one level, Debra re I was talking to Garth and it’s about this thing in the day.

Do you ever remember reading that crazy Batman and Sergeant rock team up that they did embrace them? The pole? I certainly read that. Yeah. Yeah. W where Haney and the pyro actually appear in it. And what happens is the protagonists, the villains in the piece, like take Jim hostage. Yeah. I’m

Dave Gibbons: trying to his drawing board having to draw

Sumner: that’s right.

Yeah. Or a different outcome for the story. Yeah.

Dave Gibbons: Do do remember, I’ll have to pull that out of the Jewish world, because that was my, but then I always used to love those [00:27:00] stories where when Stan and Jack showed up in fantastic four number, was it nine 11? Something that this is, this is brilliant. And then there was a little run of sea devils where there was Q but, and no, Rick in the story.

I absolutely do love that kind of stuff, you know? Yeah.

Sumner: Oh yeah, me too. Me too. You’re making me think of somebody else actually that often throughout Israel did that quite a lot. Somebody I know you’re a big fan of, is it happened quite a lot with Eisner and his shop producing the spirits, right. It particularly in the heyday, you know, kind of the 1945 to 1951 era.

And and somebody I meant to ask you about, you’re talking about lettering before, are you familiar with a mechanics and the guy who was the, the letter on the spirit. Yeah, I

Dave Gibbons: am. Yeah.

Sumner: And he’s just, just an amazing guy. He, and you know, the thing with him is he kind of, did he read this at all? [00:28:00] They, you know, he disappeared.

He basically left the strip in about 51. Eisenhower never saw him again, nobody ever heard from him ever again. And in recent years, one of those, like tomorrow’s, tomorrow’s publications figured out what had happened to him. And he, he left art and design all together and he became a a line dancing color, you know, in our country dancing color.

So the guy that was his job, he calls out the plays when people do their various dances and whatnot.

Dave Gibbons: Well, I mean, I mean, the thing that I’d heard about him and it may even have been in one of those tomorrow’s magazines, which I used to absolutely love was he never used to rule out guidelines for his lecturing straight on the board of my very first lecturing job for Fleetway.

I did it one lunch hour when w when I was up there and I was ruling out the lecturing lines and a guy called John old, rich. He was a very experienced comic lecture, came up. So I shoved him, said, Dave, what are you doing? I said, I’m [00:29:00] ruling out the, the, the guidelines should, are you measuring them all out?

I went. Yeah, you went to not just do it free hand, sorry. Free hand ruled out all these guidelines and it was awful. Cause all the letters ended up the editor of the Comac blew a fuse. They skin who was the assistant editor and it was a comical cor

Sumner: cor to guess. Right?

Dave Gibbons: Exactly. Well, this was something in interior strip and those got real bollocking in about it, but I did get paid for it.

And I actually, I did come across Xerox as the, of the check that I go for my very first professional checks for two pound 50 for a page of lecturing. So I really admire the skill it takes to let her. With, without a safety net. Yeah. I

Sumner: mean, it’s an amazing, it’s an amazing thing to do for sure. I mean something that you, so you and I had [00:30:00] quite a long conversation with Brian Bolland over the summer for the forbidden planet TV channel.

And within that, within that interview, which I’ll probably post the link to, we actually talked quite a lot in a linear sense about yours and Brian’s career. And we covered off, you know, with some of your major high points, including including watch men. So I’m not going to ask you in any detail about that today.

I thought you’d appreciate that. May I’d just like to, I’d just like to ask you the one question is what you thought of the Linda

Dave Gibbons: off show. Oh, yeah. I thought that I felt that was great. I mean, I think you know, w when I first heard about it, when they first met up with me and told me about it, I thought, Hmm, I’m not so sure about this.

I don’t know, but they were very respectful. I’m out with Damon Lindelof and a guy called Jeff Jensen. Who’s done all sorts of things. He’s a journalist was what he was doing when I first met him. And they were very [00:31:00] reverential to me and they kind of laid out invite terms and I was kind of, well, it sounds good.

I appreciate you guys taking the time. Talk to me. I, you know, I’d be interested in hearing more and anyway, they started to send me screenplays and I thought this is just brilliant. I mean, even before I seen the whole thing working, I thought that now this is taking a really strange and unexpected angle on it.

And I think what became apparent to me, there were several things that I read where my feeling was. Why didn’t we think of that? So obvious, you know, it’s like the best fiction is always so unexpected, but so obvious at the same time, you know? And then I actually, it was when I was over in Los Angeles and I went to the studio where they were making, making, and I’m out with the writers and I got shown under conditions of strict secrecy in a locked room with a guy watching me [00:32:00] I was showing the first episode and even then with, you know, not the final music track and with the special effects with.

Placeholders. I thought this is just amazing. It starts in a way that I never could have imagined. It’s told me something about America that I didn’t ever know. It’s so far away from what Alan and I did yet. So faithfully linked to it that it feels really fresh and new. And as a thing, I said a couple of times it felt not like a, a sequel, which I’m generally not in favor of, but it felt like an extrapolation.

It was like, okay, I’ve dropped this, this stone in the, in the I’m like over here, what’s the pattern going to be like, by the time it’s bounced off the shore a few times. Yeah. And so I absolutely loved it. And I think my experience was very like, you know, fans and. And people who’ve seen it on the TV.

They came into it, not really expecting very much expecting to be disappointed, [00:33:00] but actually finding that it was one of the best TV things they’d seen. And I certainly felt that there was one episode I’d done it for this episode, five or six. And I had got completely lost in it. You know, how a good film or a good TV, just forget everything.

I would have to say that it really is one of the best hours of television that I’d ever see. I thought that the whole thing was fantastic. I also admired the way that it was nine episodes and that was enough to tell the story. Once diamond had told the story. He finished. And as far as I’m aware, he’s re resisted overtures to do a sequel.

So again, that was like watch when we, we did the 12 issues and it was done in that, and we never felt any desire to add anything to it. So, you know, it had the spirit of Watchman as well, and I got to meet the cars too brilliant. And again was so nice to me and so respectful and was [00:34:00] just such talented people and nominated for 24 Emmys or something like that.

Very well deserved. So yeah, it was, it was a great experience, much better than I ever would have imagined.

Sumner: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you’re speaking for everybody watched it particularly everybody’s a comics fan. You had that sense of ODI, you know, can this be, and it’s, it’s one of those beautiful experiences where they pull off everything against all the odds against the weight of negative expectation, but for that’s one thing, me watching it and thinking that, and being blown away by it, but for you to genuinely have that experience and it’s your baby, that must feel incredible.

Dave Gibbons: Oh, yeah. I mean, I I’m sure by this time these ones see it has seen it, so I don’t think I’m going to particularly spoil it, but there were things like, well, the first one making her to justice black, that was so obvious. It was because he wears a mask.

Sumner: Yeah. And the news.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. [00:35:00] It’s just, it’s just so resonant and what they did with nostalgia as well, where we had it as a kind of a perfume.

It was a, it was a kind of mind altering drug in this. So it, it, it, it literally took you back to the days of yesteryear, you know? And that was an inspired thing thing to do. Yeah, I mean, I th I, it added, it added everything they did added to watch, rather than what can be risk with a sequel or a prequel is you actually dilute and subtract from it.

Yeah. So, yeah, so I was, yeah, I, I was, what is, you can tell I’m really enthusiastic on most times anyway, but I was completely and genuinely swept away by it. I think,

Sumner: I think that’s great. I mean, speaking speaking event, , I’d just like to when we touched upon clearly at some comic creators that you admire, but for you personally who would the, who were your personal favorite writers and artists or the, [00:36:00] the ones who inspired you?

The most of the ones whose work you simply enjoy the most?

Dave Gibbons: Well, I’m tempted to say the usual suspect, cause you obviously have to go in England. Hamsun Bellamy people like Brian Lewis, people like Ron Turner in the States, obviously Kirby deco, Eisner, Cain infancy, you know, you know, Those those people, but there are a couple of little favorite things.

And again, I think I talked a bit about this before, and I’m sure I have talked about it elsewhere line was I used to love a comic called race for the moon, which was drawn by Jack Kirby, ink by Al Williamson loudly, which was just the most mindblowing artwork I’d seen when I was a kid, because I had all of Kirby’s dynamism and white, but all of.

Williamson’s finesse and subtlety to it. So that was a real favorite. Also just kind of freewheeling, such things pop into my mind, British newspaper strip called Jeff Hawk, [00:37:00] which was in the daily express, which was a kind of right-leaning newspaper, the very left leaning woman, but she still used to get the daily express every day, just cause I love Jeff or I would cut it out and stick it in my exercise books.

And that had a magical quality to his drawn by an answer school, Sydney Jordan, but written by a guy called Willy Patterson who came up with the most incredible mixtures of adventure in science fiction and humor and a real eerie feeling and a real sense of the bizarreness of existence. And he also wrote things in other companies.

I mean, I didn’t discover this two years later. He used to write a thing called Roth of the gods, which the wonderful British artist, Ron Ableton drew, which was in a boy’s world. And again, these stories based on great meth had a real magical feeling to them in American comics. As I say, there was the Jack Kirby at Williamson [00:38:00] race for the moon, but there was another short series called the man in black fight man in black coupe fight, which was drawn by Bob Powell, who was a real jet journeyman American artists, but a wonderful draftsman.

And again, those stories had this kind of worlds beyond you know, weird workings of fate kind of failings. And I always like those kind of stories when I come to think about it. So they gave me particular pleasure and of course I’m lucky enough to have most of this stuff in reprint now. So I’m still able to, to enjoy it.

But yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s weird. Cause although you haven’t asked me directly about watching, you know, when Alan and I were doing watch, a lot of the long conversations we would have were just about such things as what were your favorite comics and what was that flavor that these things used to have that you found?

So Morrish as a kid that was so magical to you and actually made you want to tell stories or made you want to [00:39:00] explore the weirdness a bit. So, I mean probably if I wasn’t doing this Adelaide, I could think of many more examples, but they’re quite often the things that are just off the main street, the most fascinating, you know, and of course, things that used to mystify me as, as a kid, like with Jack Kirby, cause Jack, you couldn’t mistake Kirby’s artwork, but sometimes he’d being buyer Williamson, in which case it looked very artistic and textual and you know, quality other times it would being by Dick Ayers, who was a very prolific anchor, but he had a kind of squidgy sort of slightly flabbier kind of line.

Yeah. And then sometimes he’d be inked by wooly word, who at that really sharp, hard, hard age star. And I thought that, that he maybe was depending on what sort of mood the analysis was in how well he drew or something like that. It took me years to fathom out that, ah, you have a separate incur within these flavors of things.

You [00:40:00] like, there are odd little tweaks to the recipe that fascinate you because they slightly changed the experience. So.

Sumner: I think, I think that’s very interesting. Somebody you and I have talked about quite a bit in the past is deco. And I’m a huge Ditko fan. And my belief most of the time is that Dick CO’s one of those guys that he confounded most inkers on.

Most people inking, Dick CO’s work and which sounded great money because he did a lot of his own stuff. But most it’s, it’s not very successful. I think personally, one of the exceptions to that is somebody just name, check. Per person with a star, you wouldn’t think with mesh mesh with Ditko, but when you see it, I think it delivers beautiful results.

And that’s why he would, I think while he would on Ditko weirdly works, even though he’s almost the antithesis of what that code does, but yeah. Well

Dave Gibbons: you say, I think it comes back to the whole thing about inkers, you know, there’s that slur about? Inkers it just traces. Yeah. There’s that, there’s that whole riff about [00:41:00] that?

The thing about it is I’m going to go a bit intellectual now. I’m sh I’m sure you can handle it, Andrew, but there are two schools of thought, which is either the Cami cup is this pencil learning is either. The inking is just making the pencil work, clean and legible. So in other words is essentially a kind of tracing, which, which is very faithful to the pencils and doesn’t add much personality, or you can view it as the pencils are merely the scaffolding, they’re the sketch and the actual drawing or the inks.

Now, the way I tend to draw is I nearly always ink my own stuff, and I’ve always been slightly dissatisfied when my stuff has been inked by other people, even wonderfully talented. Inkers it’s I, I find it difficult to finish the work to the degree that. No, I’m not putting that, that quite right. [00:42:00] I never finished the pencils to the degree that you could just trace them.

There’s always drawing work left to be done because as I’m mainly in my own stuff, I would get bored if I just drew the line in pencil and then draw again in ink and looking at what Pence was, I’ve seen a Dick coast, he didn’t do a lot of drawing in the pencils each he get the proportions, right. And the general attitude, but a lot of what makes a Dick co drawing is done with a brush in the process of inking it.

So probably the fact that his work looks a bit uninspiring running by the people is because they miss the deck code. It’s got nothing to do with the pencils. They even with this powerful an artist as, as, as Kirby. You know, he’s work can be weakened by some inkers and strengthened by others. And so I, you know, I’ve never liked just penciling because I actually find to get it to the degree that I can be sure that the inks will please me.

I [00:43:00] have to actually do as much as if I just drew it in. Anyway, it’s a, it’s a, it’s just a strange thing. I’d much rather do the complete job, or I would like to ink other people. It’s quite relaxing to ink other people because, well, for star, if, if it, if it turns out crap, well, it wasn’t my fault. I just finished it off.

But if you’re working with a, with a good penciler, you can learn so much. I mean, I did a couple of books with Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, who is my favorite draftsman in the hammer. And it was an education. So in case stuff, and what he gave me was not the final line, but such a well-drawn line, but it’s just like, Oh, I can relax.

I can ink. I can flourish. I can, I can bring my personality to this because really all the hard work has been done. So yeah, so there’s a whole thesis there as to the, kind of the, the, [00:44:00] the intellectual process of penciling for others or inking other people’s work.

Sumner: I think that it’s, it makes total sense.

It’s fascinating. Dave, the books that you inked for Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, what were they?

Dave Gibbons: It was a series called legacies, which was published by DC. And it was a history that they see the, the overall history of the DC universe. And he did an eyeing the silver age, which was brilliant because I got to anchor his version of some of my favorite images in DC comics.

You know, like the two flashes with the wall in between both running down the side or star over the conqueror with all the JLA coming in or recreations of some of the JLA covers, like where they’re all pins in a bowling alley and the atom is in a little bowl. And when we divvied the artwork up, it’s done completely.

And partially, I think they just go on for you. One for you, one for you, one for you. [00:45:00] I ended up with a lot of those best pages, so it was a wonderful experience. And I also ended up with some great original artwork by one of my favorite artists of my favorite moments in DC comics history. So that was good.

And it was weird because sometimes you do so much drawing. You can remember what you were listening to. While you were drawing it. And because it was inking when you’re inking, the verbal part of your mind is isn’t really used at all. When you’re writing, you can’t listen to anything very much that even singing because you’ve got burden, but when you’re drinking, you can listen to dramas, plays, anything you like.

And what sustained me through thinking all that was the girl with the dragon tattoo. I listened to them while I drew these however many pages of comics. It was, I listened to that the whole way through. So there’s this weird juxta juxtaposition of looking at the artwork and remembering what I was listening to on the day that the image.

So, yeah, that, that

Sumner: is [00:46:00] fascinating. And Jose Luis Garcia Lopez was famously. He was DC style guide guy for a long time. Right? So if you ever see particularly up until about 10, 15 years ago, and he licensed images of, of Batman, Superman wonder woman that flashed at out, it it’s always his draftsmanship

Dave Gibbons: right.

It is. And actually I was, I was up at DC one day. It must’ve been in the eighties and I actually picked up that style guide. I know they’re quite sought after now, but they are, they are the definitive. DC characters. That’s how, that’s how they look, which I think is why they called on him to do this silver age episode, because he’s bang on model anyway.

And he does draw the best version of all the DC characters. There is absolutely no, no doubt about it. And I did get to work with him another time I wrote a thing called cowl, which was an L swirls story. That’s Superman coming to earth in medieval times in England. Yes. And

Sumner: I’ve [00:47:00] read that book. I own it.

In fact.

Dave Gibbons: Good. And he drew that and Mike Carlin, the editor was kind enough to send me art size Xeroxes of everything. And he’s drawing even when he’s just doing his first lap of the pages, his draftsmanship is so on the money and so expressive and so well proportioned. And he does the thing that all the best artists can do is just to make.

You know, it’s okay to draw action scenes and battles and aliens and things exploding, but to draw people just walking down the street or just sitting down talking, and he can make that stuff exciting as well. And that’s the real Mark Mark of an artist that he can transform the mundane into the special.

Sumner: Yeah. Who else have you collaborated with? Who was the artist on run San Diego?

Dave Gibbons: That was Ivan rice. I mean, some of the jobs from, in comics nowadays, I [00:48:00] just amazing. I Ivan rice, it’s got such a grasp of action and anatomy and such an appetite for complexity and detail and everything like that. And it was a really complicated story that, and that there was a whole big cast of characters and the two planets at war with battle fleets and soldiers.

And and one of the first things that I. Right in my second go round at DC. And he really made me look so good because, you know, he took the almost impossible things I was asking him to draw, which I suppose made me appreciate, as I was saying earlier writers said to me that, Oh, that when I realized you could draw anything, I wanted that, that felt great.

And certainly he went above and beyond to draw what I’d ask for. And I also worked with Steve rude on

Sumner: well, you are, you are beating me to my questions, right? Because that that’s that. So I’m not saying this just because we’re chatting, but that is my all time. [00:49:00] Favorite iteration of world’s finest, I think and you know, I, I mean, I I’ve, I’ve read a lot of comics and, and I love the way you portray their relationship and you and Steve put it together.

And I would particularly look, I think you’ve got Clark and Bruce. Exactly right in that book. Anybody listening to this absolutely needs to check this out. It’s collected in some lovely additions. World’s finest by Dave Gibbons and Steve rude. But what was your, what were your thoughts going into that project?

Dave Gibbons: Well, I mean, I, I got the job because my Carlin had seen the thing that I’d done for a sort of small press magazine in England called Awan. And I I’d written this story called survivor. And it was obviously was Superman. It didn’t anywhere in it say that it was Superman because it was all seen through his eyes.

So you never saw yourself apart from your hands, stretched out in front of you as you flew. And obviously originally going to write and draw it, but [00:50:00] in the end I didn’t have time. And an artist called Ted McKeever. Who’s a wonderful artist, but diametrically opposite to the way I died. Who’s, who’s a good friend of mine, him, and I’ve known him for many, many years.

He, he drew it and it was basically what it would be like to be super that you would. You’d be kind of, it would be a bit of a prison really, because you’d never grow old. It’s a bit like being immoral. You never grow old or die, but everybody around you would, and you could read every book in the world in an evening and you, you know, you didn’t particularly fail anything.

Nothing could harm you. Nothing could particularly please you. And it was about the own way. And I’m going to sound of being the world’s nicest man. And basically the story is he engineer’s away for his arch enemy to apparently kill him and kill himself. So that ties the. So as the whole thing. Oh, and Mike Carlin had seen that and he rather liked the kind of voice that it was done in all those completely opposite [00:51:00] from world’s finest, but he thought I could do something with Superman anyway.

So he phoned me up and said, I’ll, you know, we understand you’re looking to write things. Would you be interested in doing world’s finest? And despite the fact that for your initial story to be called world’s finest, you know, it’s like, this is the best thing ever, ever, ever written. It’s the first thing I’ve ever done.

Same seemed a bit strange, but I always loved it as a kid because when I was a kid, the only team up you would get would be Superman and Batman. And and they appeared in most funniest comics. And I said, yeah, I’d love to do that. Who’s the artist. And he said, Steve rude. And I said, absolutely because Steve is a.

Brilliant brilliant draftsman and really gets into projects. He really lives in Brisbane. Very passionate man. Like a lot of really passionate, I would say he’s he’s perhaps lives in a slightly different world. But in a, in a wonderful and amazing world, and I’ve had many, many enjoyable [00:52:00] interactions with him over the years.

And he took what I wrote just absolutely made it kind of classic. He did the classic Superman, the classic Batman. He got all the nuances of their body language and, and it’s, it’s amazing with things like playing Clark can offer back against Bruce Wayne. Obviously it’s in what they say, but a lot of it is in the body language and the way they physically relate to each other.

And Steve did all that stuff and made it absolutely live and added touches to that. I had never imagined. And I think it does hold up quite well. It’s basically playing you and against yang, you know, it’s the sort of dark, mysterious yin of Batman against the bright, positive yang. Of Superman and how those two things contrast and enhance each other and then using their environments in a similar way, you know, the, the sort of Gothic, crowdedness of Gotham and the sort of bright futuristic [00:53:00] spaciousness of metropolis, and, you know, the joker, who’s a clown against Luther.

Who’s a hard age scientists, you know, and it just. I just managed to weave all these things together and then take Batman and put him in metropolis with the joker and take Luther and put him in Gotham with Sue and it all just, you know, so it was an enjoyable thing to do. I wouldn’t want to go back and do it again because actually to put Superman and Batman in the same story is a little bit problematical thing.

It’s hard to see them existing in exactly the same work world. I think that much has been my limitation as a writer, but I suppose like lots of things that I’ve done in my career, it’s been my fanboy dream come true. Like, Oh, I’d love to write Superman and Batman, but not forever, but just enough to say, ah, I’ve done it and express what thoughts I’ve got.

And I think that was so with You know, many things I’ve done, like the chance that we got [00:54:00] to meet Alan Moore and I to work on the spirit for well eyes and, you know, so, and then I did Batman vs predator, which was very well liked, but I didn’t want to do another one because, you know, you’ve seen that fight, but yeah, but, well Well’s finest.

Yeah. It was a was a, was a great thing to do. And I know a lot of it’s a Steve Rouge talent of making people very, very real.

Sumner: I think, I think it’s a beautiful book. And you just touched upon something that that I think you, you guys pulled off and so many people didn’t, and that was a that was a, a new iteration of the spirit or a take on the spirit that was, was very was very Respectful to Eisner and you, your, your book of course, was produced while he was still alive.

And we’re very respectful that twice a while, while sort of grabbing the heart of what he produced, which is what I think a lot of people miss, because I guess Eisner is essentially a [00:55:00] no Henry figure. You know, spirit, the spirit himself is often a cipher for a brilliant short story, which he only plays an incidental part in.

And I think there’s been a move to, with a lot Spirit’s adaptations to put him at the center of the narrative, which is not, I think it seems to me as a big fan is not how he’s best deployed. But no,

Dave Gibbons: I mean, no, he’s quite often a walk on in his own stories. Certainly the three stories, Alan, I didn’t that first issue that was essentially it.

I mean the labor kind of his origin, or they were the events of the night that he, he became the spirit told in three different ways, because Eisner had done three different persons of it. But certainly in a couple of the stories, you only briefly see the spirit or he’s the investigating detective. Who’s observing the action, but that is the nature of the spirit.

But as I say, I think a lot of that is to do with like I was saying that there’s stuff that I like that I would discuss at length with Alan, [00:56:00] or he would discuss his favorite should me. And I think Alan, in particular, if you look at a lot of the things he’s written, he’s really good at getting to the essence of something.

And the three stories that he wrote for the spirit to me were. Classic spirits stories exactly identified the mood and the feeling and the weight of them and the degree of humor, because the spirit was not totally serious. Character. There’s always a bit of humor in there. And a lot of the supporting characters withdrawn in a somewhat cartoony way.

And it gave me an interesting chance to kind of do, although it is the same artwork, three slightly different types, using the sort with decorative borders, all those kinds of graphic effects that ice never Jews. And then doing a thing that was a slightly moodier story. And then one that was quite rigid.

Ridiculous and constantly. So yeah, I mean, it was great to have done that with a writer like Alan, who absolutely got it. And it was good to do something that I know eyes in the light, [00:57:00] because he sent me a note to say that he did really like it. And he, and he did when I had to meet up with him before we started on it, say really interested to see what you and Alan do, but there’s just one thing.

Please don’t make the spirit a drug addict. I mean, I don’t know if he was influenced by Alan’s haircut or something that, but we’ve been never, ever going to do something like that with the spirit. But, yeah, so, but again, as I say the real key to my car, I’m a, I’m a fan boy who always says yes to the thing that I’ve wanted to do since I was a kid.

And certainly the spirit would fall under that. And it was also great as well, because I’ve got the DC archives of disparate. Yeah. And there’s 20, they’re all matching volumes. There’s 27 of them. But then dark horse did the 28. But which was the stuff from the new adventures of the spirit. So my work is there on the bookshelf at the end of Eisner’s.

So, yeah, that was a great experience.

Sumner: Well, yeah, I’m the proud possessor of [00:58:00] that set and that volume as well. And it’s got to feel great. I’m thinking, you know, in addition, I think what, it’s always great to talk to you about comics David’s, in addition to being, you know, I, I much respected artist and creator.

I’m being a fanboy yourself. You always strike me as a very articulate comics, evangelist, which not all creators are, you know? I mean, I think you’re always, you know, you’re, you’re always very studied in your, in your analysis of, you know, your peers and the people who influence you. And it’s just such a lot of fun to get into that and listen to what you’ve got

Dave Gibbons: to say.

Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s such a large part part of my life. I think it’s really possible. And you know, isn’t the Liverpudlian expression of . I mean, I do, I can’t  and, and, and so, I mean, I do love to talk and talk about and discuss things with, with people. And as I say, I spent many happy hours just talking about comics, nothing to do with the work that [00:59:00] Alan and I were doing.

And, and you know, there are things, there are things about comics, which work on re on an obvious level, but there’s lots of stuff that is on a subtle level and a lot of things. I, I think just the I’ve always been fascinated as well by the mental processes of creating comics and seeing how people work and seeing what their processes and realizing that, although we draw in different ways, we all have the same pressures.

We all have the same miss misgivings, most of the really good artists and creative people I know have great self doubt are all beset by imposter syndrome, you know? And so it’s, it’s, I find it really interesting to explore that kind of inner world of doing comics as well. And you mentioned that.

Tomorrow’s books and magazines earlier. I really love the looks that they’ve given and that unfortunately, they came along while still quite a lot of the golden age creators. And certainly the silver [01:00:00] age creators were alive and, and did really good in-depth interviews with, with them. And I learned a lot from that about the artists that I admired, and I’m always really happy to talk about comics to people.

And I, I quite often find all those. You very kindly say, I’m a, I forget what the complimentary term was. You can learn so much by talking to other people, not just you in passing your wisdom, but their fresh take on comics and, and Their, their views of what makes con make comics exciting

Sumner: fish. And that’s a great thing about these conversations.

You know, comic books is a living, breathing art form and perspective is always fascinating, right? Whoever that perspective, you know, cause it re it requires you to invest to enjoy it. Comics are things you have to absorb, you know, funnily enough, that the very reputation they had when people were growing up in the fifties that were disposable, [01:01:00] actually, I believe it takes quite a lot of investment to really savor a comic book because it’s existing in a number of different dimensions, right?

You’re reading the words, you’re reading the art. It’s a glorious symbolism of both of those things. And so every, a lot of comics, fans like comics, craters, who are comics, fans of course have just fascinating opinions.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. And I mean, there is also also the thing, I mean, what’s what, what’s that famous question.

When, when was the golden age of science fiction and the answer is 12. So, so many of us come across these things when our brains and our thought processes and our tastes are still being formed. And again, isn’t there a UN Noel coward or something who said about the power of sheet music, you know, there’s even quite bad, badly done.

Things can have a tremendous emotional power music, images, movies, comics. And I think they get to a stage like [01:02:00] the Jesuits, you know, if they got you at nine years old, they probably got you forever. So yeah, it’s it’s and of course, I mean, I think it’s always been a thing that slightly offended me.

Probably moving that should have the comics is sort of looked upon as low culture and are kind of, you know, this disregarded or felt to be margin. I mean, in fact, for a lot of people, cool, it is their first exposure to hand-drawn images and story and, you know, adventure and interest in magic and all the things that, that you go from a literary experience and an artistic experience at the same time.

So I think I’ve always been a great proponent for discussing them in the depth that any other art form would warrant. And I think there is plenty to be said, and I think there are some very. Original talent. I mean, the other thing [01:03:00] about doing comics is that it’s the relentless amount of creativity. I used to know a guy who was a visualizer at an advertising agency and I’d showed him, he came around my house and he looks at a page, a comic art that said, so.

How did the  months work? Is that? I said, no, that was the day. He said day. You true that in a day? He said, God, it would take me a month to draw anything near that. I mean, he was ready to get us. I’m really good at being a visualizer, but even being that he didn’t spend anything like the amount of concentrated time that a comic book artist spends.

And also just because of the amount of time you spend in the intensity, you, it actually accesses your subconscious because you’re having to pull this stuff up from somewhere. And we talked about Caribbean debt code. A lot of their stuff is unfiltered from their subconscious. And so it’s got a tremendous interest in charm just because it’s somebody.

With their pants down almost, you know? So [01:04:00] there’s, there’s that whole aspect of it as well. And, and I mean, I wouldn’t want comics to be completely respectable because I think there’s something about this adversity, which is part of the charm, but I’m really pleased to see that they are, and indeed have, for some time approached the level of regard that most of the other popular art forms seem to have like movies, like music like dance, you know?

And I think that French call it the ninth hour. I actually don’t know what the other eight arts are, but even if we’re ninth I’m very happy that comics are seen in that way nowadays. Yeah. W

Sumner: well said, mate, that is, that is a hard degree from me. And the thing about the ninth art is I have not heard that expression before, and I don’t know what one to eight are either, but the nighttime sounds very cool.

Dave Gibbons: It does. It does. It almost sounds like a Mobius, but doesn’t it

or something like that. [01:05:00] Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so it’s good to, and of course in my later years, it’s possible for me to have these discussions, which, which is great. I mean, When I wanted to draw comics, I thought it would just be, you’d sit in a room and draw pictures. But the fact that you get to travel the world, you get to meet interesting people from all over the place that your work is seen all over the world, that you’re able to have discussions like this with other people who are passionate and informed about comics and that it’s available to anybody, it can be bothered to logo on.

It is a wonderful thing. So I don’t draw so many comics nowadays, but I’m always very, very happy to talk about them.

Sumner: Yeah. And I’m very happy that you chose to join me today. And thanks very much for your time, mate. I really enjoyed it. You’ll be pleased to hear that. I think I asked maybe three of the questions I had in my mind.

None of the others, which is I knew that’s the way I knew it would go. But if you can find the time in the future, I would love to have you back on to get [01:06:00] into other stuff I wanted to talk to you

Dave Gibbons: sure. I’ve got at least another episodes worth of stuff. Launceston was always a pleasure to talk to you, Andrew.

And we, we are with the profiling circumstances. I think we said before, a bit overdue for one of your nice lunches, but yeah. Yeah. Let’s, let’s talk like this again and hopefully talk in person with the drinking hand before too

Sumner: long. Sure. Yeah. When I’ve been jabbed as well as you and when things open up, we’re doing that for sure.

And I’ll look, I’ll look forward to seeing you again soon, mate.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah, or actually last accident. Thanks. Thanks very much for the interesting questions. So

Sumner: much take care of that. Yeah. I’ll see you soon. Cheers. Bye-bye thanks, Dave. Our rappers out there. Thank you. That was brilliant. That was just the job.

Yeah. Yeah. Great to see you, mate on. Thanks. Thanks very much for making the time for me. I do appreciate it.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. I mean, I hope I didn’t ramble on too long cause I can ramble on and on and on and on,

Sumner: but Oh no, I, I I was hoping that you’d I knew you [01:07:00] could fill an hour quite easy, easily. I was hoping that you would.

And and I, and I know with you, I’m in safe hands in terms of, I can queue up the questions. We’ll go somewhere interesting. And we’ll keep on going somewhere. Interesting. You could

Dave Gibbons: piss off for watch the football,

Sumner: right? Yeah, exactly. Pull the data at the moment. You know, it might start me, might meet a few tears,

Dave Gibbons: so where’s this going to

Sumner: appear, Andrew?

Okay. So, so basically there’s a bunch of guys who run a kind of a. A podcast hub in Seattle, it’s called spoiler averse and they do a bunch of things. The main the main one is called spoiler country. And I’ve like been a guest talking about comics and movies on that for about two or three years that I pop in every couple, every couple of episodes and every, or every time I’m in town for work, I record three or four and they run them throughout the year.

And they were like, do you want to do your own podcast where you just get to interview the people, you know, and talk about the things you’re interested in and passionate about. I was like, yeah, shit, I’ll do that. And then I [01:08:00] thought, well, since I’m recording all this stuff, we’ve been planning these days, you know, it’s very easy for now.

I’ve got the setup. It’s very easy for Anna not recording video. I’ll just, you know, the people I really liked chatting to whenever the free I’ll record one. So, so yeah, I, I that’s, so it’s called hard degree and and the podcast launches at the end of this month. Yeah. So it will probably go live the last week of February and then it will just roll out on a weekly basis.

So when it, when it, when it goes out there, I’ll send you the link. So you can put it out on your social media and whatnot

Dave Gibbons: explains why your emails were titled hard to agree. I thought you were saying, Dave, you got to agree to this, by the way, you did slip it in into the, into the interview. But I would like to see the podcast called heart disagree.

That’s yeah.

Sumner: Oh yeah. That’d be awesome. The thing is I might run this bit of extra footage by the way, because the thing is, I’m a. I’m essentially a [01:09:00] positivist, you know, I’m not, I’m a lover, not a fighter, you know, but but but I do like that concept of a fisticuffs dorm ticking over who your favorite artist is.

Well,

Dave Gibbons: well, yeah, because, you know, I thought I might like to do a podcast as well. And who knows? I may, and I might’ve mentioned it before, but I’d like to do one that was along the lines of that wonderful eyes, the book. And Colin used to have, which was called shop tool.

Sumner: Oh man. Yes. You’d be perfect at that.

Yeah. That’d

Dave Gibbons: be great writers artists just about the process, not, not about their wider career, but just, you know, literally what sort of pencil do you use? What sort of pain you use? What music do you listen to? What, what inspires you? What do you do if you, if you get stuck, blah, blah, blah. You know, that, that kind of level of stuff.

And of course, I mean like you, I’m rather lucky and I’ve got quite a good address book. You know, I could get some really interesting people on there. I already asked Frank Miller and he’s absolutely up for it because [01:10:00] he loves all that process crap as well, you know,

Sumner: that is crying out to exist and you should get it done.

Now. It just a thought, have you ever needed any work? To, to host it. So all the hard work of editing gets and like hosting it is done. These guys that I’m doing my podcast, well, they’ll just do it all for you if you wanted to. And if you wanted to control that part of the process yourself, that’s also, that’s also fun, but hang it’s given me the bandwidth to do this is they’re gonna, they gonna host it on their platform and it’s going to be one of the strands on the, on the, on, on the, but it will all be like copyright me and, you know, credits it to me, but it’ll sit within that strand, but that led you to it and host it.

And that just so don’t have to worry about doing that. So these guys are, I’ve worked with these guys for a couple of years now, and they’re honest and they’re massive comics funds. So if you ever carry on there,

Dave Gibbons: Not to keep you too long. Andrew not, not in the technicalities, but you’ve got a pretty straightforward, simple set

Sumner: up.

Have [01:11:00] you, I mean, yeah, I really have, so what a goal right is, so I’ve got, I’ve got my, if, if we, if he, if it was recapturing the video like you do for forbidden planet, I’ll show you me. Some boys kind of do this. I have no, I have, I have a ring light that’s here. Right? And I have like a I have this, I have a microphone and I have a, a pop-up photo and that’s it.

And it runs off my Mac. It’s dead easy. And we’ve got it. I’ve got a ring light here. The ring light has these things cost about 15 quid from Amazon and they run different settings. So. So I use the warm setting and the different levels of brightness when I’m doing forbidden planet. Cause we’ve got the backdrop, I dial it all up to 11 or whatever,

Dave Gibbons: and he’s also a very kind light as well.

I like coming full on it, using it. And it was weird because to do with the publicity on the game that I last worked on, do some audio for that. And they [01:12:00] actually bought me like one of these baffles, one of these sort of semicircular things, which is really interesting because of course it deadens the sound.

You don’t get the bounce. Right. Cause otherwise, I mean, where you are is in a pretty normal. Sort of ,

Sumner: but you’re, you’re in a studio

Dave Gibbons: furnishing, so get a little bit bouncy, you know, but, but yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. I, it’s a thing I really should have done during LA lockdown because obviously we’ve all got loads of spare time, but I’ll, I’ll have some thoughts about that.

And, you know, I, I may well get back to you and see if you could you could place me in a, in a spot to.

Sumner: Yeah, 100%. I’d be my pleasure to help on these guys, these guys who simply D these guys I’ve done it for me simply because they like me and they’re like chatting to me and they were like, Hey, if you want to do this, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll give you all the infrastructure and we’ll just do it for you.

They’re like tech guys who love comics, you know, to me. And [01:13:00] they would do the same for you.

Dave Gibbons: Just give them like an MP3 or something of the sound and they just work it all out. Do they? Absolutely.

Sumner: Right. So there’s, there’s two things. So zoom, if you set the zoom, what zoom will do is as we’re talking, it will create three audio channels.

It will create a joint audio channel. Then one is, that’s just you. And one that’s just me and it dumps them down as MP3s. And it’s in it’s in whatever, the level of clarity of input you’ve got at your end. Right. It’s brilliant. But then also. What I also do doing gay during gay using an app called audacity is when I, not now, but when I do my intros and whatnot, I record those using the audacity app as a wave file, which is about five times larger.

So say if I’ve talked on MP3 and it’s 60 megs worth, the wildfire will be about 250 max, but it’s in a much greater degree of crystal clarity for if you’re doing solo [01:14:00] stuff on a ration. So something I don’t know over sent to you, but it will do you just seek and listen to a bit of it. You don’t have to listen.

The whole thing is I, I recorded for charity flat, give comics hope organization. I recorded a, a, a, a narration of reading of Dickens’ touring version of a Christmas Carol. When we release that over Christmas time, just to, you know, get raised some visibility for that cause right. And it’s me narrating and performing the different characters, doing Bob Cratchit as a scouter, by the way.

Yeah. And and these guys, all of us produced it. But if you listen to that, that all of that audio is recorded on as wildfire rather than MP3. So it’s much Iris, so I’ll eat it. So it’s up everywhere, all the podcasts up and I’ll send you the link. Well,

Dave Gibbons: it’s, it’s really interesting because my son has done a podcast from many, many years to think of red barrel UK, which is a gaming podcast.

And I haven’t spoken to him about his podcast, but what I used to have to do [01:15:00] was to recruit their own video and synchronize it, him and his mates would that they’d have to clap someone to clap. And that would be like, you should like your clapperboard and then they’d have to record their own audio and then put it together.

And I didn’t realize that zoom did it as a joint channel. And it’s two separate channels, which is great because it means if anything goes wrong, you can.

Sumner: Cut it out. That’s exactly why it’s so good. And you’ve hit the nail on the head. When I first used to record with these guys, that’s exactly how we did it.

We recorded locally and then what, then I downloaded the file and we transferred it over to them nowadays. You can just record it in zoom and it does all the work that’s great. And you,

Dave Gibbons: and you don’t have to mess around having headphones or anything

Sumner: I’ve got is I’ve got air pieces. What I personally find people were in the cans, very distracting, you know, like, like, yeah, I don’t know.

You go around the track in top gear or something. So, so, so what I worked out was that actually, if I had just [01:16:00] you know, a black pair, I had airboats you actually unlike say the white ones, or you could get our black clothes anyway, you can’t see them. So I just use these and they were undead. So, this is jacked into my map book, which I’m looking at you on now that the, the the microphone is jacked into the, into the map book.

And so as the light it’s, it’s so low fight some believers.

Dave Gibbons: And so that keeps me out of your audio as well. Doesn’t it? By wearing those, it

Sumner: means that you’re always just, there’s no echo. Yeah. I mean, generally speaking, because I’ve got quite a loud, booming voice, I have this experience when I’m in meetings.

Cause all my meetings are via zoom these days where I can hear my own voice echoing back through somebody else’s all day audio, which is why most people in zoom calls now nearly always wear a ear buds and all of them work hands. But I think that looks ridiculous. You know, it’s like a DJ or something.

Dave Gibbons: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Well, that’s all interesting stuff out. I’ll I’ll think on about that. Yeah.

Sumner: It’s so easy to do. It’s so easy to do, but anything I can do [01:17:00] to help you. I think it’s a brilliant idea. I mean, I think you’re the right person to do it and you’re the natural successor to will for talking about that stuff.

And it’s crying out for podcast mate, particularly with the superstar artists. That’d be amazing.

Dave Gibbons: And it will be a good chance for me to work on my listening abilities rather than my talking, because I actually quite like asking other people questions. So I think I would enjoy doing it even though it would be about them and not all about me.

Sumner: Well, that, that’s the, that’s the that’s the downside to a commercial success, particularly commercial creative success is everybody wants to talk to you about what you create and everybody wants to talk to you about you. And for, of course, for 30 years, All the 20 years, I was a journalist. I was the guy asking those questions over time.

You know what I mean? So, so, so I, I get it, but but you’re a good listener as well, mate, you know, to me, it’s a fact. Yeah.

Dave Gibbons: W well, that’s good. All right, Angela. I’ll just, yeah, so I think we should, but it’s been been great. I’m [01:18:00] pleased to see you looking well, K-12 get the job and we’ll have a pint in the sunshine.

I’m looking

Sumner: forward to it, mate. You take care of yourself and I’ll see you soon. Thanks, Dave. That was great. Thanks mate. Bye bye-bye.

Andrew Sumner’s Pops bought him his first comic book in Liverpool, England when he was three years old. Sumner spent the next fifty years hurtling around the pop culture kaleidoscope – first as a fan and then as a journalist, editor, publisher & presenter. Along the way, he met a bunch of interesting people who’ll be joining him here: creators, performers, professionals & public servants.

We live in divisive, fractured times but art & popular culture connect people from all viewpoints and from all walks of life. Sumner’s fascinated by the passions people share & enjoy, that they can set aside their differences for and agree on, whatever those passions are (whether he shares them or not).
And that spark, that moment of instinctive connective agreement, is what Sumner calls a Hard Agree.

Follow Sumner on Social Media:
http://twitter.com/sumnarr

“Golden – The Hard Agree Theme” written and recorded for the podcast by DENIO
Follow DENIO on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/denioband/
http://soundcloud.com/denioband/
http://twitter.com/denioband/
http://instagram.com/denioband/

Follow the Spoilerverse on Social Media:
http://facebook.com/spoilercountry/
http://twitter.com/spoiler_country
http://instagram.com/spoilercountry/

Kenric Regan:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

John Horsley:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Did you know the Spoilerverse has a YouTube channel?
https://youtube.com/channel/UCstl1UHQVUC85DrCagF-wuQ

Support the Spoilerverse on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/spoilercountry

It’s the eve of Christmas Eve! This year, we’re supporting pandemic comics charity GiveComicsHope.org, who are doing great work helping our family-owned comic book shops stay alive during this bleakest of midwinters. Please join John & Kenric and Hard Agree‘s Sumner as they accompany Ebenezer Scrooge and the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present & Future for this very special production of Charles Dickens’ performance version of A Christmas Carol. It’s time for Christmas and it’s time to Give Comics Hope. HAPPY HOLIDAYS FROM ALL OF US AT THE SPOILERVERSE

Very special thanks to comics artist supreme Kelly Yates for his festive illustration of John, Kenric & Sumner (colors by our very own Mr Horsley)

Follow the voice behind this, Andrew Sumner:https://twitter.com/Sumnarr
Art by Kelly Yates (https://www.kellyyatesart.com/)
Colors by John Horsley (http://y2cl.net)

Welcome to the first episode of Hard Agree! This is a joint episode with the boys from Spoiler Country as we talk about our 2020 A Christmas Carol in support of GiveComicsHope.org.

Find Sumner online:
https://twitter.com/Sumnarr

Find Spoiler Country:
http://scpod.net/podcasts/spoiler-country/

Find John:
http://twitter.com/y2cl
http://instagram.com/y2cl/
http://y2cl.net
http://eynesanthology.com

Find Kenric:
http://twitter.com/XKenricX

Music: “Old School Punk Rockers” by The Young Presidents, used with license.