Discover the secrets to propelling your expertise-driven business to new heights with Ann Carden on the Hard to Market Podcast. Dive into transformational strategies that go beyond basic branding, leverage your full potential, and harness high-level marketing to close major deals and amplify your influence.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Elevate beyond entry-level offerings
• Specialization should be market-specific
• Leverage assets to build client relationships
• Avoid the "one-trick pony" approach to business
• Premium market strategies drive bigger profits

Resources:

• Expert In You Marketing & Media
• Podcast Chef
• Expert In You Podcast

Connect with Ann Carden:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 18:14 - McKinsey and Deloitte have said that like the consulting and the professional service industry is going to hit trillions of dollars in the next two years, in 2026 and 2027. But they also said that the premium market is going to be where the real opportunity is which is great news for me because that's where I help people play, right? So I'm like, oh, yes, sounds good. This great. Finally, now it's not a want anymore. Now it's a need, right? If you wanna stay relevant in the market, go high.
• 38:33 - Brian: What are the three biggest takeaways that you've picked up in your journey so far?
• Ann: The three biggest takeaways is get help from someone that can move you faster, really move you forward faster because business is not waiting any longer and it is, you really will become irrelevant very quickly if you are trying to DIY things. So that would be the first thing. A lot of people think they can DIY it, they can get the information, but information doesn't equate to being able to do it. So that's where I believe everybody now needs help because things are moving at warp speed. It's, it's just not like the old days. Right. Yeah. The second thing I would say, especially with AI coming onto the scene, is don't think AI can do it all for you. 
• 32:49 - It goes beyond just their online presence, but everything that we do is to drive revenue. So a lot of people start a podcast to put out value, to put out content that's not what we do. There's a more strategic approach in the way we utilize those assets so that they are either working through the people they're having on their show. To get to the right people, or they are actually interviewing the people on their show that could be clients for them or could be referral partners for them.
• 11:45 - ​​I am such a proponent of specializing, but a lot of people do it the wrong way, Brian, and this is, this is the problem. When people say the riches are in the niches, that doesn't mean you only show up with a portion of your value, because that's how you put yourself in a beginner category. 
• 23:34 - There was such a gap in the market. I call it the elevation gap. You've got startup and getting good at what you do over here, and then you've got scaling. Nowhere in the middle is anybody closing the gap, right? So people are jumping over the elevation phase in business. They're not, they're not going as high as they can. And then scaling that, they're trying to scale what they first did or what they originally did. And that's why they end up. A lot of the clients that I work with have tried to scale, and they have found they're unfulfilled. They, they're working with clients beneath their skillset. They don't feel like their value is really being seen or appreciated. 

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the dynamic world of digital marketing with the self-taught maestro Luke Eccles on this episode of "Hard To Market Podcast". From the roots of social media marketing to the blossoming tree of AI integration, Luke shares insights on authentic content, niche marketing, and the beauty of learning through failure.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Luke's journey from MySpace to SEO
• The blend of IT and marketing expertise
• Localizing marketing strategies for impact
• Content with personality wins audiences
• Embracing AI while keeping it authentic

Resources:

• Red Bearded Marketing
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Luke Eccles:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 08:30 - Luke: So one of the things I've really always pushed since I started was I would say I'm a unique individual.
  Brian: Why Luke? Why would you say that?
  Luke: Yeah. But  I feel like everybody's unique. Everybody has like, their little quirks, their little things about their personality, and content is one of those things where when you get really good at doing your content, that personality starts to seep into it. And sometimes it makes it the best content because it's surrounded by your personality. So I think that's one of the things I've really honed in on and really pushed with my clients is what are you into what.
• 06:20 - And most marketers are like, well, I can only really help you with this part, and like right here. Whereas, think of it like a spider web. I kind of understand, and I handle everything surrounding it. And I think that really plays off with the questions I ask my client. 'Cause when people come to me, they sometimes have an idea of what they need or they think they know, they know what they need. Sometimes they're right. Sometimes it's like the inkling of what they should know, but sometimes they think they need “A” and they actually need “F” You know, and I think having that diverse background of different services and different parts of the digital marketing field allow me to kind of say, okay, well yeah, like this is something that maybe we should, we should just do right now really quick. But like SEO is what you really need. 
• 24:18 - Be prepared and be excited to fail. I think one of the things that we overlook when somebody screws up or fails is like, how do you learn usually by failing, usually by screwing up. And, that's, I mean, like I said, that's how I learned web design. It was a, you go in, how do I do this? Google, okay, is there a video for it? Watch the video. And then you do it, and sometimes you mess up. Sometimes you've had some bad customer interactions where, you know, maybe you weren't completely wrong, but you know, like, you know you messed up a little bit. Or like, there's something new that you didn't know about, and they get pissed that you didn't know that. And it's like, like again, like I said, there's no open source, streaming, saying like, all right, this is what's going on in our industry. This is how you do it. It's like you mess around and find out, and sometimes, you know, like you're gonna fail, and sometimes it's gonna be really bad. And how you rebound from that and how you learn from that. I think that really pushes right into that topic of how you expand, how you learn.
• 22:05 -  It's people that are looking at it as like a negative thing. Like, you, you can take that approach, but you're just gonna get steamrolled. And everybody's like, the people that learn how to use it for their industry are gonna exceed. They're gonna way beyond everybody else. That's not. So if your industry is using AI, learn it, it's two years from now, this is going to kind of be like the conversation. Like you remember in 2014 when like the older guys were like, yeah, I don't do that email stuff. I don't do that internet stuff. Where are they now?Brian: Yeah, yeah.
  Luke: You know, it's like, it's like the transition from radio to tv. It's just, it happened, and all those disc jockeys were done.
• 19:54 - Luke: Ot's still the same principle. It's just that we were playing with a gun before, now we're playing with a nuclear, you know, a nuclear bomb. Right. You know, AI is, it's insane what we're gonna be able to do.
  Brian: So apart from the capacity side though, it's also flooding the sort of marketplace of ideas with content, and then differentiations harder and harder. Because again, just the volume of signal out there, you know, the volume of noise to signal is so, so much higher.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into entrepreneurship across continents as we chat with Andrew Morgans, a marketing expert with a mission. From a childhood in Africa to pioneering Amazon’s selling space, Andrew’s tale is nothing short of inspiring. Tune in for a masterclass on building brands, adapting strategies, and connecting through commerce.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Born in Africa, raised by missionaries.
• Dislike networking job, joined a startup.
• Grew toy company sales by millions.
• Top 10 world marketers on Upwork.
• Pioneered services side of Amazon selling.

Resources:

• Marknology
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Andrew Morgans:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 15:38 - And so whenever they get clients and they're looking for a larger agency or a partner to do some of the other work or things like that, I've just spent a lot of time creating great relationships there. I feel like that's what I brought to the table outside of being kind of a, just a geek around this stuff was relationship building growing up that way. Growing up the way I grew up is like relationships are everything. It's kinda what I was taught and I just leaned on that. I didn't definitely, I knew zero entrepreneurs when I started this journey. I zoom, I knew zero business people when I started this journey.
• 23:29 - I thought I knew yesterday, I don't know today, you know, we've had pandemics happen, we've had inflation happen, we've had new presidents, we've had all different types of stuff happening that just changes the temperature of your customers, the changes, the temperature of your buying platform and you have to be able to adjust and just, you know, try new things.
• 21:52 - Whenever you're first learning out to market, you just think like through the lens of you, you know? And if that can help you in your first idea, maybe your second idea about, as you start adding hundreds of brands or projects that you're working on, you have to quickly realize that you are not the target market of all times. And you can't always think like you do. So take a step back. A lot of times when you're thinking about a project, if you're helping somebody else or doing your own, there's a big difference. Marketing number one, marketing number two, keep it fresh and don't get stale.
• 13:37 - It's been a great way to grow and market my business and it's changed, it's pushed me to do podcasting and things like that as well as, you know, learning B2B marketing or B2B message is different than being amazing at Google PPC or Amazon ads or, you know, whatever it is. it's been iterations of websites. It's been tons of partner networking. 
• 06:11 - There’s more voices out there in the business community saying this is the truth. This is what you should be doing, this is the future of business. This is e-commerce. Amazon is not going anywhere. Amazon can make you have a profitable business. You can tell your brand story on Amazon. Amazon isn't just gonna cannibalize your website.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the influencer cosmos as Christian Brown unpacks Glewee's journey, a platform marrying creativity with commerce. Discover the art of attracting creators, working with brands, and the potent strategy that skyrocketed their user base by 900%. Tune in for a reveal of the top marketing lessons from Glewee's playbook!

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Strategy for a dual-sided market.
• Achieving success with tailored outreach.
• Enhancing creator engagement through gamification.
• Maintaining equilibrium between influencers & brands.
• Scaling mass reach without payment barriers.

Resources:

• Glewee
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Christian Brown:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 22:14 - My next thing is be very true to who you are and what your team is. We've learned this quite a long ways down the road is that brands want to come to us, not only because we have a social media platform, but because we know social media and us as a founding team and as a team of mentors and leaders within our company, what we preach and what we speak to our brands and to our users is what we want the best for everybody. And so I think that there's such genuine intent with what we do.
• 03:11 - So with the double-sided marketplace, when we once had this platform ID on sticky notes, prelaunch, pre-beta, pre-anything, we thought with the question how are we gonna crack the chicken and egg? And we thought about it and we said, well we were 22 and 21 at the time when we first launched the platform. And we said, well let's leverage what we have. We have our network, we've worked with hundreds of creators already and we understand what creators and influencers want out of a platform. They want to be able to track their stats, they want to be able to see how much money they can make, they wanna apply for more campaigns and they wanna work with more brands to create these posts and get paid. 
• 18:51 - I think what it was, was the interest in activity on site. And so we have our platform that we obviously have our website and we call it the mother site. And we were getting so much activity on site and so many different clicks and views to our education guides, YouTube videos and that world around like what Glewee means from an influencer marketing perspective. That to us, the only way to actually count that as what we would think is like part one of a conversion is getting them into a demo form. And these brands, these businesses, these social media marketers, these startup founders were saying, I want to do a demo.
• 11:04 - In the middle, there's agencies that do this on behalf of clients that really have their own tech to power it in the backend. So not true SaaS. And then at the bottom was not many true SaaS platforms. And so we looked at it and we said, well we can play in the legacy brand landscape and the very competitive market where competition has teams of fifty to a hundred BDRs SDRs AEs built out with their sales program. And we tried to emulate something like that and it was one of the greatest learning experiences ever because that was definitely the first time that we were uber-challenged and nearly truly stumped in acquisition. And so with that, we went from just getting people interested in our platform to very quickly having to set up our CRM.
• 06:42 - Brian: And for folks listening that have an environment where you have the chance to screen your clients in that way, I think that's a really powerful strategy. What are the drawbacks of that though? Are there any, are there any issues with hitting that many people in and then telling them they have to apply? How is that working?
  Christian: Yeah, as a marketer I think I've learned an immense amount through this program in specific, 'cause they most definitely don't teach you this at the university level, how to actually build these email programs, how to execute at mass scale, how to identify not only your market but qualifications within the market. 'cause yeah, we want creators and influencers to join our platform, but there's a benchmark that they need to hit. There have been a bunch of drawbacks, you know, ebbs and flows. We've seen tons and tons and tons of creators that respond back or even just reach out to us 

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the vibrant world of startup marketing with Rebecca Fulton from Kliken. Discover the agility of startup culture, the art of crafting a brand's identity, and the intricacies of channel partnerships in this episode that’s packed with insider insights and strategies for fostering business growth.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Flexibility in startup marketing.
• Crafting a brand's identity.
• Tackling channel partnership growth.
• Overcoming marketing challenges.
• Insights on content strategy.

Resources:

• Kliken
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Rebecca Fulton:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 08:42 - Our CEO has been really instrumental in fostering those channel relationships and the partnerships throughout the years. So he's really kind of the frontline for that conversation. But we also, we have meetings or emails either weekly, monthly, quarterly with a lot of our business partners and say, okay, well what are you hearing that your customers need? How can we help that solution? Are you hearing that they need something we're not providing? And so we honestly are very interactive and we communicate a lot with our partners to make sure that what we're offering is solving a problem versus just assuming that everything is good as is.
• 20:47 - And the third thing is not to spread yourself too thin. Again, there are a thousand different ways to market something. Don't try and do every shiny new platform that's out there. Don't try and make every type of content that is possible. I'm personally more of a content marketer than anything else, and I've learned that trying to create content that is more spread thin than, you know, very helpful, is kind of the downfall. So know where you want it, know who your audience is, know the type of content that they want and don't, and don't be everything to everyone.
• 04:36 - And I found that if you go to the employees or the executives and say, okay, this is what I found. This is the trend that I see. These are the issues that I think that we can solve for, very easily. And this is kind of our low hanging fruit. It's very simple to get them all on board. The question, the more taxing problem, I suppose is that sometimes it's how we message it after that. So it's not as hard to get people on board with saying, okay, yeah, I agree that these are our problems or these are the things we can work on, or these are the things that are our strong suits.
• 11:31 - I would say that a majority of our business comes direct from those channel partnerships. And that's again, because we built our business working with channels. We built our business working with partners and making sure that we had a solution that they could use for their customers. So that is why a majority of what we've always done has been part of channel. Now the direct-to-market stuff is growing. As I mentioned, click and ads is a newer product. It's only been out on the market for less than a year. And so I expect that that will grow significantly over time.
• 05:32 - Rebecca: It's more of how do we then move forward and kind of adjust messaging or, you know, shift if we need to.
  Brian: So now you're working at Kliken and so what makes that business kind of hard to market?
  Rebecca: So Kliken is an online marketing platform. The thing that makes it hard to market is that it's an online marketing platform. There are a lot of them out there. People are often very confused as to who to choose, should they go with an agency? What's the difference between agency and a DIY platform, which is essentially what we are.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the crowded world of marketing with FiveRings Marketing's CEO, Shaheem Alam. Get insider tips on standing out, offering full-service marketing from cold calls to SEO, and selling in a tech-saturated landscape. If you're navigating a noisy market or craving marketing ingenuity, this episode is your playbook for success!

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Tackling a saturated market.
• Unique full-service agency approach.
• Crafting a robust go-to-market strategy.
• The power of cold outreach.
• Evolving sales processes & positioning.

Resources:

• FiveRings Marketing
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Shaheem Alam:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 03:06 - One thing is just with our service offerings, I'm not gonna say the only there, there might be more out there, but I haven't come across an agency right now that's doing full service, meaning we do the outbound sales stuff, your cold calling, cold emailing, LinkedIn prospecting, providing BDRs, SDRs, that kind of service. And then also doing inbound, you know, PPC, LinkedIn ads, Google Ads, SEO, content marketing. 
• 01:32 - Brian: What makes your business difficult to market?
  Shaheem: Got it. I think what makes our business difficult to market is the fact that there are tons of other agencies out there that are doing something similar or doing the same thing or doing bits and pieces of what we're doing. So there's a lot of competition
• 14:25 - Shaheem: So that's like the first challenge that they come with is like,  they need conversations, they need sales meetings. The other thing, which is something that they don't realize, which I'm starting to have more and more conversations with our clients about is while they think that if they get 15 meetings per month, they're gonna close, 20% of them, 30% of them, and then they're gonna get the revenue and they're gonna close these deals in two, three months and they're gonna hit their series A and it's all gonna be, you know, according to plan.
  Brian: Sunshine and rainbows.
• 12:11: I think PLG requires like a community, a strong presence online, right? Like a lot of that kind of stuff. A lot of buying from a community. And most startups that we work with don't have that. Like, we don't actually come across PLG being a very like, common tactic that like, that's being employed. We have had clients where they do use it because they had an open source product. And they have a huge community built out of that. We have other clients that will come and they had like, Hey, inbound is working really well because they just figured out ads really, really well. But you need all channels humming still, right? So even if you have your community or you have your inbound ads or organic or your referrals or whatever, you still need that outbound component because this is a channel again. And you wanna, ideally, as you grow, have all channels. 
• 17:32 - We have some documents we share with them too, to creating like a good discovery call, and then what's your next step? Advising them on what that next step should be, and then what should, what it should follow up with afterwards, how to follow up to keep moving these leads along your funnel. So we advise our clients and provide them with some guidance around that.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the marketing mind of Garrett Hammonds! From teacher aspirations to a marketing maestro, Garrett unravels his journey and spills secrets about standing out in digital marketing. Discover B2B success, conference ROI, and crafting relationships that convert. Get your notepads ready!

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• From teaching to marketing guru.
• Niche focus in digital marketing.
• ROI tracking in corporate events.
• Relationship building in B2B.
• Tools & insights for marketing success.

Resources:

• Nomadic Marketing + Software
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Garrett Hammonds:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 08:38 - We didn't need something as large scale like a Salesforce or you know, a larger plan on something like a HubSpot. So ActiveCampaign helps us be able to automate what we need to keep people flowing through the pipeline. And that's where we keep up with the lifetime value as well. Other things that we use as tracking measures, we do use Zoom Info as a tool. So we know if companies that we have been keeping up with have visited our website, connects up perfect to GA IV and actually passes those parameters into the reports that we can have there. And then we also use Mixpanel. That one's gonna be just kind of a secondary backup to some of our other tracking. So if something ever goes down, we have mixed panel that can, you know, kind of act as a act as another system to pull in.
• 11:47 -  Being a digital marketing agency, we have some different ways in which, you know, we've pulled in clients through free Google Ads audits and you know, there's all kinds of different pathways that we employ. But I think at the heart of all of that, even when looking at any kind of digital piece, it's always gonna need to come back to a core objective of how can I connect with these businesses, these business owners, the people, the humans on the other side, and really listen to the needs that they have and are we a good fit for helping them? And that's where that relationship piece comes in.
• 10:14 - Garrett: Most of the ones we've gone to have been a big success though. But we've gone to specific industry conferences for the verticals that we serve. So staying away from more general professional conferences and going to very, very specific industry vertical conferences.
  Brian: So you're using those conferences to nurture relationships, you're continuing to grow the referrals you already had and you're increasing your lifetime value for your current client base. And I think that's like,as a three-legged stool, that's a really a great approach.
• 17:45 - Other clients, people are just searching for very, very specific things on search engines you know, finding a very specific industry publication, we've crossed over at times with traditional marketing and magazine things. It really just depends and it's really important for anybody who's trying to market their business to know your market and what it looks like and know your audience. And it's gonna be one of my, one of my big themes that you may hear from me that, that relationship that links back to knowing your audience.
• 20:22 - It's central because the audience at the end of the day, drives demand and their needs, whether they are always initially aware of them or not, their needs are the thing that is going to make it to where you can actually provide solutions for them. Not make sales, but offer solutions. And I think that's key as well, knowing your skills and your tools. One of the most foundational things that have helped me grow in my career has been this one, knowing tools. I didn't of course graduate with a marketing degree

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the world of marketing with Ashley Behre as she unravels the knots of marketing hard-to-sell issues like a pro. From small-town authenticity to Las Vegas glitz, Ashley takes us on a journey through the dynamic landscapes of digital marketing, community impact, and the fierce world of engaging tech giants. Don’t miss this invigorating chat that's sure to stir up your marketing spirits!

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• SEO and content take center stage.
• Community impact defines agency ethos.
• Marketing plans are not one-size-fits-all.
• Inspiring leadership is marketing gold.
• Strategic community engagement is key.

Resources:

• The Abbi Agency
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Ashley Behre:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 15:47 - Ashley: I think the key thing there is the big hearts. We need to find those people because we're the ones who can bring bold to life in a way.
  Brian: That's awesome. So that sort of charity or community engagement-driven approach to marketing is something that's pretty, a pretty strong differentiator I think for you in the marketplace. 
• 19:29 - I think the biggest thing that I've learned is that you have to make time and space to allow yourself to be inspired. And that like it has been a journey for me. You know, you get into the weeds of everything and time goes by and you kind of forget to stop and smell the roses  per se. But you know, put time on your calendar to read into articles, to walk and listen to a podcast, to find and put yourself in spaces where you can be inspired because that inspiration is what leads to good marketing that matters.
• 07:56 - The best way we're trying to do it in 2024, if I had to boil down our marketing plan in 2024, is show don't tell. I am much more interested in spending time achieving an award that shows the excellence in services rather than telling everyone that I'm really good at what I do, right? So we're doing a lot of that and then I think the next biggest pivot is it's super hard to market to marketers. They're the, we are the biggest critics, right? And I think that's one of the hardest things I find with my job is that my target audience is myself. So I have to really think about and sit down like, what would be of interest to me to learn about? Why, why would I care about that? I I am probably served to the most out of anyone content.
• 17:19 -  The person that we're working with, our partner, and bringing things to life. And I think there's, you cannot forget about the emotional connection with your main point of contact or the people that you're working with because they that might be the draw for you. I will say that the agency also has other elements that may resonate more with potentially the tech clients and that would be our kind of more performance-driven mindset. The test and learning situations that we, build and drive performance from. We try to be as tied to goals and outcomes as possible. Not all industries are as tied to goals as some others are, but making sure that we are as not aggressive is the word, but fierce is, is kind of the word we like to use. 
• 13:26 -  Brian: How are you identifying those?
  Ashley: Yeah, again, it depends on the market honestly. It's really important to have an authentic approach to each market and to make sure that you're received by the audiences in that market, how best you can be. The best way for me to share that is an approach into the Las Vegas market is very different from how you approach Montana. For example, Las Vegas is a little bit flashier. We have to make the biggest impact we can.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into a dynamic chat with Beth Trejo, CEO of Chatterkick, as she unveils the transformative journey from boardrooms to the digital world. Discover marketing insights, evolving business strategies, and the social spark igniting company growth.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Beth unveils Chatterkick's origin story.
• Powerful SEO tips hidden in plain sight.
• Social media's role in business hiring.
• Venturing from local to national circuits
• Strategy shift: from high-volume to consultative sales.

Resources:

• Chatterkick
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Beth Trejo:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 19:16 -  Number one is be curious. Always like want to learn more. I think that's really important. Another is to be kind. You never know what someone's going through on the other end of that conversation, whether it's a real conversation or it's a social media conversation. And I think the third is to make sure that you respond, call them back. When they call you, call them back, whatever that looks like. I think too many businesses just ignore their digital phones and they're real people on the other end of this. And I think if you really wanna make business work on social media, you have to form those real human connections.
• 11:27 - I think right now just our field in marketing as a whole is shifting. And I think it will continue. It has, it's always evolved and we're still gonna need people to help tell businesses stories. Like, I don't think that there's going to be a fall or demise of marketing, but I think the way that we're doing it on behalf of businesses is changing at a very, very fast pace. And social media is still a big category of how individuals, especially individuals under the age of 40, want to interact with brands, but businesses are not embracing it at the pace that they really, that their customers want.
• 15:08 - There is all of this other stuff that comes up. And if you don't create that presence for your business, someone else will. Your employees will create it on Glassdoor, your customers will be posting about you on TikTok, you're gonna get out there. But it's just a matter of like, who do you want to tell that story? And sometimes businesses make the strategic choice not to be in that spot, and that's their call. 
•  15:43 - What drives me crazy is when businesses are using preconceived notions or assumptions about their customers without actually going through that journey themselves. Like, have you tried to apply to your own jobs? Have you tried to go through your website and be a customer? Can you find your phone number? and it's those type of things that I think are the big biggest misses that a lot of businesses are just blindsided with.
• 09:51 - You need to make sure you know how to hire the right type of salesperson. In the beginning, we hired high-volume salespeople. And I always call, that's like the hunting dog mindset, right? Just like, go get 'em, go get 'em, go get 'em. And those individuals were great, but because they like need that constant drip of dopamine from a sale, they would sell things that sometimes we didn't even offer, or they would sell things incorrectly because they just wanted the sale. And so we kind of got into a spot where we had to say, hold up. We need someone who can really consul, consultative sell this service. We need them to really understand enough about digital marketing and the tools that we're using. And really they need to want the sale not just for the money, but because they know it's going to be a long-term partnership.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult

Dive into the dynamic world of podcast marketing with Ilana from Heard of Media and host Brian Mattocks. Uncover the secrets of audience building, relationship forging in B2B podcasting, and the subtle art of podcast promotion. Explore media landscapes and tactics that turn the microphone's magic into a thriving listener base.

Here are a few topics we’ll discuss on this episode of Hard to Market Podcast.

• Boost podcasts by swapping promos.
• Audience growth is a slow burn.
• Use YouTube for podcast SEO.
• Audience indicators for podcast growth.
• Testing content for audience appeal.

Resources:

• Heard of Media
• Podcast Chef

Connect with Ilana Susnow:

• LinkedIn

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email

Quotables:

• 24:56 - You bring up an important point and I think it's something to be mindful of for our listeners and that is that even in many ways what's defined as a podcast is now changing, right? It's no longer just an audio that people can listen to while they go for right. It's now an audio plus a video channel plus a TikTok stream plus this, that, and the other thing. And with all of those sort of silos coming down, you have to understand that you're now playing in a media landscape. It's not just that niche conversation and in a media landscape, there's folks that have been in that a lot longer than you have out there doing this work. There are some things that even experienced podcasters can learn about the way media operates to help grow and engage an audience in a meaningful way. 
• 9:13 - Advertising data shows that people traditionally are more likely to buy from a host red ad that they hear in a podcast from a, you know, someone they follow regularly. And by follow, I mean their podcast, necessarily their socials or whatnot, right? They're hearing it in their ears or on the YouTube, on the YouTube channel. Like, I love this product, buy it because that's one of the reasons advertisers love podcasting and that sort of share of ears so much.
• 22:15 - And in success, you'll be able to go on those bigger shows where you can get bigger hits at once. The other thing I think is just a misconception and again I think I did mention this earlier, is social media is great for brand awareness, really hard for it to bring in actual new listeners and downloads. I do think YouTube is changing that a little bit, changing that game. So that's the other big conversation right now in podcasting.
• 30:52 - Brian: In your marketing journey so far, what are your three biggest lessons that you've learned?
  Ilana: Don't be afraid to test. If you have the bandwidth to do it, be very mindful of how your paid, earned, and owned. Opportunities inform and play against each other. So be ready to continuously optimize and scale those to raise your profile and also your audience not duplicate efforts in the different spaces. 'cause they do overlap a lot and you know, I think you don't need to be on every social platform, but finding the platform that you get the most engagement from with the audience you're targeting or knowing where your audience is, is really where you should be investing your time and your content and adjusting it specific to that audience.
• 13:34 - One of the things with brands that I didn't really focus on earlier, but is a strategic way to think about podcasts especially if you're videoing your podcast, you can break that up and use it as content across all the platforms that your brand exists on. So, you know, you can take this interview and cut it up into moments add subtitles, I mean add copy to the screen and put it in it, it shows up in people's feeds, right? And you highlight whatever you're talking about again and see what is resonating and what people are following.

Connect with our host, Brian Mattocks:

• LinkedIn
• Email
• Schedule a Free Podcast Consult