Vice President Kamala Harris is hitting the campaign trail, but her talking points don’t shed much light on her approach to foreign policy. With wars in Gaza and Ukraine—not to mention increasingly hostile relations with China and Russia—foreign policy could easily define a potential Harris Administration. To get a sense of how Harris might approach world affairs, Josie and Max take a closer look at her current national security advisor, Philip Gordon. They talk to ‘Pod Save The World’ host Ben Rhodes, who worked with Gordon in the Obama White House on some of the administration's most consequential foreign policy issues, like the war in Syria and the Iran Nuclear Deal. Together, they look at how those moments shaped Gordon, and how they could shape Harris' approach, too.