High-Trust Business Podcast

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Rachel Lebowitz, EOS Implementor and COO coach, about the challenges leaders face and the ideas she brings together in her new book, The Empowered COO.

Rachel brings a wealth of experience to her work. From helping scale her family's business to working with a wide range of organizations as an EOS Implementor to her training in relationship and codependency management, she shares her expertise in aligning big thinkers and their COOs. We explore the paradox of a visionary "addiction" to ideas and a COO's need to assert boundaries.

This episode is a treasure trove of practical strategies, especially for those in COO or Integrator roles. Rachel's belief in COOs communicating their value beyond executing details is a key takeaway. We also delve into strategies for empowerment through delegation and questioning skills, providing some actionable insights.

Her approach is pretty unique, addressing both the strategies and the underlying issues of working across personality types. Her personal experience helps to illustrate the challenges felt by many, if not all, in a COO role.

We wrapping up delving into some of the benefits of using a conversation-starting book to introduce an idea into a conversation going on in the minds of the people you can best help.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/166

Rachel Lebowitz Contact Information:

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Rachel: You know the world is all into coaching CEOs right now. There's masterminds, like you know Dan Sullivan, Strategic Coach, Genius Network, Vistage, EO. I mean unending right. But How many masterminds do you know for COOs? The other thing is we you know a great CEO visionary will say, yeah, sure, get yourself coaching now.

The problem is that 90% of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking.

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today I have a great guest with us, Rachel Lebowitz. Rachel, how are you doing?

Rachel: Hi Stuart, thank you so much for having me. I know this is going to be fun.

Stuart: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too. It's always interesting. The last week's show that I recorded was with a guy called David DePula who I know pretty well. We've had lots of conversations outside of just the book, but you and I haven't had a chance to catch up yet. So it's always interesting to kind of do the discovery at the same time that people are hearing about on the show. So I'm interested to dive a little bit deeper. Why don't you start by giving a bit of background on you and what you do and kind of set the scene for the audience?

Rachel: Sure. So I grew up in a family business and a big family. My parents owned a business and I think I started working from the age of 10. I was punching a time card and I think by 12 or 13, I asked for a raise because you've got to ask for a raise. But the most important part of working in a family business was observing how employees acted very differently when the boss was around versus not. And then I decided to go for a degree in business behavioral science.

Fast forward many years. My husband and I bought a company called Polycraft Industries. We print on flexible packaging and we grew our business very fast. But then we felt like the wheels were falling off the bus and I complained to anybody that would listen. That's when a friend told us about the EOS. So that's the entrepreneurial operating system that you implement in your business and it helps you get clarity around your vision, accountability and a healthy culture. So we implemented EOS.

I really wanted to be the implementer, but then we were like you can't be a dentist on your own teeth, right? Because that's really behavioral science. So about three years in, we hired somebody else to do it for us. Three years in, my husband comes out and he's like you know, my life got to a point where we actually have more time, we're enjoying life, we're not feeling overwhelmed by the business why don't you go and become an implementer? And so I took him seriously and I went and I did it.

I've learned since then that you never take visionaries very seriously, but that process I discovered that I'm a visionary too. But when I looked at all my clients, I saw all these similarities and I was like gosh, this feels like they all have compulsive personalities. In some of the stuff that I've been doing over the years was coaching spouses of addicts in codependence recovery. So I was like this is interesting. Those entrepreneurs seem very similar to the addicts and then their COOs seem to be having all the traits of the spouses. Like what's going on here? Right, I dug in there, did some research. Huge fan of Dr Douglas Brackman's book Driven have you read book Driven?

Stuart: no, but I'm adding it to the list now you better add it to the list.

Rachel: So Dr Douglas writes in his introduction and he expounds in his book about people that are driven have a genetic mutation. It's the d2d4 alias that's mutated, which means that their brain doesn't register dopamine hits. So they're constantly looking for more and more because they're not getting the message that they've had enough does that that like make sense for you with driven people yeah, and without sending this into a therapy session.

Stuart: Then there's a number of things. So I've got two hats. I'm kind of the I see myself as the visionary implementer on 90 minute books because the the initial idea we were delivering to dean's clients as part of new information, which is Dean's business. But I wanted to spin it out into a separate company because I saw the potential and the scope. So for 90 Minute Books I kind of see myself as that visionary implementer side. But my natural background and tendency is as an implementer and on the new information side. So the kind of other hat that I wear is running the operations for Dean on the new information side and the way you've described that relationship and those tendencies is almost identical. So, yeah, that definitely resonates.

Rachel: Yeah, the thing with the visionaries is like they have a moving goalpost. So it's like if they wanted 10 million, they want 20. And then when they reach about 17, they're like, what 20? We want 50. You know, enough is never enough. They live in what's called a narcissistic fantasy, which is this fantasy of when I will get that, I will be happy, I will be content. And then they get close to that, and then they realize contentment is not there and they push it. It's not a bad thing if it's managed well.

That's what the great innovators in our world are, like Elon Musk and all those great driven entrepreneurs right, but what happens is they leave these big trails of smoke behind them because they view anybody that's coming in the way of their goal as a threat. And they have big personalities. They have strong personalities and they mow them down. So suddenly we see COOs that have been so strong and confident losing their confidence and shrinking in their seats. They start being yes, people. They start not being able to challenge a visionary, pushing back. They start losing their sense of self, forgetting what their passions are. They start becoming resentful and lonely, and I'm seeing this again and again. It's like an epidemic that nobody's talking about.

So then I said, what if I took all those tools of healing and confidence from codependence and I brought it into the business world and I helped COOs level up, because you know, at the end of the day, anybody that's in a relationship doesn't want to be in a relationship with somebody that is needy, doubting themselves and burned out right.

You want somebody that's assertive, decisive and discerning, and I always tell COOs that they have to get a little bit of ADD, and it's not the visionary type of ADD, it's assertiveness, decision and discernment. So this leads to I am a eos implementer right now. I am the founder of empower too, so I help coos get out of that rut. And I also opened something called the driven spouse forum and that's a forum for spouses of driven entrepreneurs. Because it's really all and the same, at the end we're dealing with the same, what I call relationship math, and this is the relationship math of having a driven visionary and anybody that they attract falling into that codependence trap it's interesting that bridge between, regardless of what the relationship is, but the relationships are, to varying degrees, suffering from the same psychological challenges.

Stuart: Do you know anyone else who has made that connection? I mean, geez, I'm 48, I've been in this world for like 15 years and it's the first time I've ever heard anyone make those connections in that way. Do you know of anyone else teaching things in a similar way, or is this a pretty unique and novel approach?

Rachel: in the business world. I have not seen anybody address codependent in the business workplace. I have. So I have a great friend, christy clayton, and she's the founder of the fem community, female integrated mastermind, and she's coming out with her own book. But and we talk a lot and we have a lot of similarities her experience is coming from pure experience, mine is coming from the background of codependence so I made that psychological connection.

Stuart: But I don't know anybody else that actually made that psychological connection yeah, I think the experience that you bring to it, having traveled through journeys and seeing those, those real-life examples in lots of different situations.

Again, it just helps you fill in the gaps between the kind of academic work that you've done and the experience that other people see and the your personal experience real, interesting way of bringing it together, the trying not to make this too much of a personal conversation because lots of questions are jumping to mind, but it's all about our particular situation, coming to it from an EOS perspective, the idea that that relationship between visionaries and implementers and the dynamic, the EOS model we don't have EOS in the business, but I'm pretty familiar with it.

We've got a number of friends and clients who are in that world that relationship is relatively structured and framework-based. Does that allow for bringing in this personal dynamic into that framework? Is there a very close correlation with the people who naturally gravitate towards EOS and those who would also recognize the psychological challenges and then there's a an appetite for those people to address them, or is it, is it more that those people who are looking for frameworks and the answers are still a little bit type a, focused in that structural and this is drifting across into an area that they're either not willing to or not yet able to address? What's your experience with people's receptiveness to?

Rachel: so I want to create some clarity. So there's visionaries. Then there is integrators. It's not implementers are the people like me, like I'm a coach that comes in sometimes. Integrators are self-implementing, so you can go and implement alone eos in your business and that's usually the integrator. Because the integrator? Because the integrator.

So here's what a visionary is. Visionary is founder usually. Okay, ceo drives the company vision. They have the big ideas. They have 20 ideas. 15 are almost probably really bad, okay, really good. They are low on follow-through. They're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries're high on quick start. Like if your audience knows about Colby, you know visionaries are high on quick start. They just start projects but they never finish.

Integrators are usually high on follow-through. They don't have that need to constantly do something different and move. You know worlds and all that. They're very good, they're very logical. So what happens is I would say like there is a plenty of the world that have integrators, some of integrator capabilities. What happens is what I realized is you get in the room as an implementer and you're like who wants to be integrator? And there's this one person that raises their hand. That person usually has some kind of history of enablement and codependence, because nobody willingly wants to put themselves in a position to just like be the one to bring another vision into reality and run and it's chaotic. So what happens is there are healthy integrators but there's. I think research is like only 2.5% of the world's integrators are actually healthy enough to qualify as integrators. Why is that? Because of all the people that have high follow-through, only 2.5 percent are assertive, decisive and discerning. So what that means is integrators often get crushed by visionaries. The visionary is like I'm telling you the sky is purple today. And they're like no, it's not purple. And they're like I'm telling you it's purple, you, it's purple. And then the integrator is like fine, it's purple, right, that is not a strong integrator. A strong integrator would go and say you think the sky is purple, show me evidence, let's go outside together, right? And then like oh, that looks purple to you, that's's interesting, to me it looks blue.

What happens so to be able to take a visionary's idea and bring self-awareness back to the visionary? Because somebody that is in that narcissistic fantasy they're running after a goal has very little self-awareness. They don't see themselves, they don't see the words. They talk so fast, things come so fast they don't remember what they say, they don't even like it doesn't mean that much to them. But if you put it back in their plate, they now have to think.

So when I sit with teams and a visionary is like, yeah, we can double our company by next year, integrator says it's not possible. I said I teach integrator. That is not the way to bring logic to the visionary. You got to talk to the visionary and the visionary's language. So you talk to the visionary, you say help me understand, how do we double? And he's going to say well, if we do X, y, z, then if we open up a whole new division and we buy 10 new trucks, then we should be able to double. So then'm like okay, so how long does it take to get to 10 new trucks? Well, last time took us about five months. How many people do we need per track? How long does it take to hire each person? And then suddenly they're like, oh, this doesn't make sense, right? And then they're like I don't think we can double, but we can definitely grow 20. And then everybody's like yeah, well, you can grow 20 percent.

Stuart: We get on board yeah, yeah, you circle around the edges of the debate to land on something that's a bit more realistic without coming across as negative. I remember that from rocket fuel talking about integrate, integrators, to put it my words, integrators being often seen as the negative person because always bringing the logic to the situation which comes across to people who are fast moving as bringing up challenges and objections. That element is that part of the relationship dynamic, of getting to the next level, deeper in their relationship and getting past it. Does that come into the yeah.

Rachel: So, going back to your original question, what happens is, I think, in in companies that are not running in eos, there is so much mercury that they don't even have clear definitions of what a visionary is and what an integrator is. Once you create that clarity around visionary integrator, then the integrator can suddenly fall into this codependence trap because they still don't have clarity on what the real healthy looks like. As EOS implementers, we help our clients get three things vision, traction and healthy. Healthy is literally emotional intelligence, right. So what happens is what you're talking about.

Integrators are seen as negative. That's because they're not exercising the ability to become the visionary's best friend, to show them how they are not an obstacle but they are there to help them and bring their visions into reality. If you as an integrator are constantly saying no, you are seen as a threat. If you say yes and or help me understand I say in my book I'm writing about that I say no is a cop out. No is when your child says can I have a lolly? And you say no. Yes, and is your child says I want a lolly, you say I wish I can give you a lolly, but it's 12 o'clock at night and you don't want holes in your teeth Right and then the child's like, no, that's a bad idea.

Stuart: That connection of the work that you do and the overlap with EOS. How much of it is a requirement for them, for your ideal client, to have a founding understanding of that model, because it's a baseline of understanding for you to then develop and help people get even more healthy, is it? I mean it is, but I have a particular visit to non-EOS people. Obviously it is, but are they just not aware of, do they not have enough understanding to appreciate the benefits?

Rachel: It's not a requirement at all. I have many clients that are CEOs and they don't run an EOS. They've never heard of EOS.

I keep it totally separate. The problem is deeper in the companies that don't have EOS, but the remedy is still the same. The issue is still the same. If you have EOS, it helps you. You're halfway there on the structure, on the company, on getting accountability, but as a relationship it's like marriage counseling. This is like it has nothing to do with EOS.

Eos uses the term visionary integrator, but in a company not running an eos, it's first and second in command ceo, ceo, right. So ceos often feel crushed. They feel like I don't have what it takes to stand back, what? Or they become so enmeshed that they have no life outside of their business, of the business, and the business is not even theirs. And then the sales and they're left without a job, no payout, and this person made millions.

I've spoken to so many people around that and that's because those coos are forgetting about themselves, creating a vision for themselves. What do they want? So when I work with co, what I do is I help them learn effective communication skills. So that's assertiveness. So, again, nothing to do with EOS. You can use assertiveness no matter where you are right. Assertiveness is helping them understand what they want, establish boundaries. Boundaries is a big deal in a CEO-CO relationship, being able to understand that you cannot change the other person and that having boundaries is a healthy thing and will help you grow the business not taking on other people's work. So I'm seeing a lot of COOs saying yes to their leadership team and then suddenly they're piled with a bunch of work on their desk that is beyond beneath their unique ability, right. So I help COOs find out what their unique ability is so they understand where their strengths are, so they can delegate everything else.

I help them figure out what's their leadership style like. What type of leader do you want to be? I help them figure out how they can mitigate resentment by creating a self-care plan. Many COOs neglect themselves, their self-care. They want visionaries taking time off, going on vacations. And they're looking and they say why can't I do that? When will I get that? Secretly, I know all the COOs listening on this will not admit that to their visionaries. But I know secretly you are thinking you're saying when will I experience that? And the answer is who said you can't?

The problem is, if you believe that you need to control everything and do everything yourself and you don't delegate, you will never be able to take a day off. But I'm telling you, the best COOs take as much time off as CEOs. They just know how to do it well. They delegate, they have a sense of self. They're not threatened or afraid they'll lose their job because they know how much their value is, because they know what their unique ability is right. So help them level up in that way and then, when you have that, you can tap back into your gift of intuition. That's discernment. That is what an integrator has, that a visionary does not have. That's the logic. That's being able to take all these ideas, separate the truth and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and the facts from the feelings. What's emotional? What do we really need to do? Look at the data, match it up and make great decisions.

Stuart: Those elements, do you find that there's one that stands out more than the others? Is there a commonality of people really struggling with the decisiveness around what they want, or the assertiveness element and being able to communicate it? Does it skew majority to one way and then there's a long tail of the other elements, or is each case really?

Rachel: I see two things that I see a lot is co's falling into being passive aggressive. So there are four types of communication. There's being passive, which is like letting the world, you know, do its thing and you're not interjecting, right, you're just sitting there. Passive aggressive is saying I have no needs, denying your own needs and acknowledging the other person's needs, which creates resentment. When a CEO sits in a meeting and says, whatever you guys want, I don't care, and like I guess it's me again, I guess I have to fire him, all these passive, aggressive remarks are resentment that's festering and it's a way of saying I have no needs, you have all the needs.

Now what happens is when a girl gets extremely resentful, they become aggressive. And aggressive is saying you have needs, only I have needs. And that's when they say well, I'm the CEO and I'm going to tell you what to do. And they say to the visionary and sometimes I see where businesses you can't tell who's the visionary because the CEO became so controlling, because they're like I'm the CEO and they feel like the weight of the world is on their shoulder and they have to keep this train train running and the pressure is too much for them. Or, on the other hand, I see COOs turning passive and then they become like just an executive assistant. So they lose their solid sense of self and they just do whatever their visionary wants. They have no discernment, they make no decisions.

Sure, you want to take out all the money today, we'll take it out. You want to invest in somebody else? Sure. You want to hire? Sure, you want to fire? Sure. And suddenly this business is going on this train and everybody else is getting very confused and you start losing morale. Everything gets bottlenecked in the COO because we're waiting for the COO to make a move and they become very slow at making moves because they're doubting themselves.

The best form of communication is assertiveness. Assertiveness is acknowledging the other person's need and your own need and then staying centered and doing what's best for the situation. The situation is the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company. Now, if you're not running an EOS, you don't know what the greater good of the company is. Maybe you've never sat down and created a VTO, right, but you can still have that conversation. So when your visionary says I want to take out X amount of money because I want to do that. You look at them and you say I hear you and that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, that's probably very important to you, but where we're standing right now, if you take out that money, we won't have payroll. Do you still want to do that?

And I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about my people, I'm concerned about my own paycheck. Now that visionary can make a better decision because it's depersonalized, it's acknowledging most people are looking for validation. That's the only thing they are looking for, right? The problem with COOs is, by the way and I'm going off tangent here is that COOs are looking for external validations. Well, why are that way? Why, because you know, when COOs tell me this all the time, they only feel that they had a good day or they're doing a good job well done, if the visionary tells them so. They depend. Their validation and their self-assurance depends on what their visionary communicates. So if the visionary gave them a compliment that day, they're high. If the visionary was angry because their wife yelled at them and they came into work, then now the CEO isn't a bad man.

And what I teach those CEOs is you can't let the visionary be your puppeteer. That's how I complete the book and I say who's your puppeteer? Because you need to know your self-worth. You need to know that you're doing a good job, no matter on which wavelength the visionary is today. And if you have the right systems in place, then you can have data to back up and know that you're doing a great job, right. We have a scorecard. If you have accountability, if your rocks are being met and your goals, then you shouldn't be doubting yourself, right?

So that's the number one thing that I see that CEOs fall into. Do this passive, aggressive or passive trap? The second thing is that I see them trying to pre-empt situations, trying to solve people's problems before they even have a problem. They feel that they must anticipate people's needs and that they have to solve other people's problems. And the truth is a real COO teaches a person how to fish instead of giving them a fish. They're great.

So they never solve their people's problems, they just ask the right questions. So what I do with my clients, I sometimes put them on a word diet, I call it, and that is, I give them a challenge that they can offer the next X amount of time and they pick one person to practice with, or maybe we decide on what the framework is. They can only ask questions and they cannot give answers. They cannot give solutions, and that's when they really have to get good at asking good questions, because you got to get the other person to come up with an answer themselves, and when somebody comes out up with their own solution. You create buy-in right.

Stuart: Right.

Rachel: It's not the integrator telling you what to do. You came up with this, so you're more than happy to do that. You know, my son's principal has this policy that when kids fight or anybody gets into trouble, he calls them into their office and he asks them what do you think your punishment should be? So if a child chooses attention, he's not going to protest against it because he chose his punishment right, like you said he's buying to the outcome exactly.

Well, my kid says well, I think I shouldn't get a punishment. So then the person says well, how am I supposed to let you go back to the class? Or what am I supposed to say to the other child?

Stuart: now that feels very hurt right so then he says well, and I guess I need to say I'm sorry right, yeah he got from him what he needed yeah because he stood on asking questions right, that kind of drilling down to the real, the real meaningful difference, the outcome of the solution that really makes a difference and it's not just a surface level punishment or a quick answer to a problem and then move on to the next thing. That's getting down to the real difference, which comes from asking questions, is a pretty big difference maker. How am I trying to ask the idea that COOs have this discerning element that makes them good for the job in the first place? But a lot of that discernment, as you said, only 2.5% of them are effective or healthy, as they could be. So a lot of that discernment maybe comes from discerning the answer to a problem rather than discerning the questions to get to an answer. So I think there is, as you said, a tendency to fix yourself and not delegate as much as you could do.

Rachel: It's misplaced discernment and what happens is when COOs learn how to recalibrate that they are less stressed out and used up and burned out, because it takes much more effort to come up with ideas than to ask great questions. And COOs are so burnt out because they're doing everybody's work, so you're doing less of the heavy lifting because you don't have to follow through, because you're not the one that came up with the idea yeah, and going back to the example of the kids and the kids fighting, the people are bought into the solution because it's their idea.

Stuart: It is such a short-term, short-termism thinking. It's the quicker route to just give the idea and fix the problem and move on. But it's interesting you're taking like that. It's a. It's just a different skill the skill of answering the questions and the skill of asking the right questions. Someone with a tendency to discernment could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do their answering rather than asking could do both. It's just the default. The path that's kind of built into our brains is to do the answering rather than asking.

As I say, it's always a risk of this turning into a therapy session rather than sharing the sharing the ideas with the rest of the audience. But this is fascinating, in part, I think, because it's just hitting home and resonating personally as we're talking about it. But also this idea that there's small tweaks to the way that you work can lead to such greater outcomes and that kind of pivot point and ending up in a much better situation. Many of the COOs that you work with. So, as you mentioned, not all of them, or even a small part of them.

At EOS, where the visionary is brought in as well, for the COOs that you're working with, is there any conflict with the visionary in that relationship? Are they there? Is there a concern that the CEOs are trying to do something that's at odds if the visionary is comfortable with how it is in the moment because they're ticking along and doing work in the way that they've worked? Is there a barrier to get started with the CEOs who work with because of the environment that they're in? Do they need to put on their big boy, big girl pants and decide that this is something that they need?

Rachel: to address before they actually get started. So sometimes it's a two-part sale. Sometimes it's the COO comes and they're strong enough and they have a healthy enough relationship to that the CEO acknowledges that the CEO could use coaching. You know the world is all into coaching CEOs right now. There's masterminds, like you know Dan Sullivan, strategic Coach, genius Network, vistage, eo. I mean unending right. How many masterminds do you know for COOs? The other thing is we you know a great CEO visionary will say, yeah, sure, get yourself coaching now.

The problem is that 90 of the coaches that are out there are executive coaches that cater to visionary thinking. They've not cracked the code of how do you? The wiring of a coo is very different now when you take a coo and I've spoken to many COOs that went to the wrong coaches it's like when spouses of addicts went to addiction specialists and they sat and they're like you don't get me, this is not my problem, I don't want to be amped up more. I am just like looking for a boost of self-confidence. Most visionaries don't need a boost of self-confidence in that way right.

And most visionaries didn't lose their sense of self because they've built huge businesses around their sense of self. They take their mission statement and they hire 500 people around it, right? Coos lose their sense of self and to be able to coach a COO, you need to understand their wiring. So I don't know really how many COO coaches are out there that are actually specialists in this and understand the wiring and are qualified to do this coaching. So when a COO reaches out to me, they've usually already had the conversation. If not, I offer to get on a conversation with a visionary and I use the tools that I use, that I teach my CEO clients, which is talking to visionaries in their language, showing them the win, showing them how threatened by their COO leveling up. I just look at the COO and I tell them now you know Right. They're like what do you want to do?

Stuart: There's no avoidance of what the situation is. The choice is, then, stark and in front of you Either continue, but it's not going to change, right.

Rachel: It's like staying in a marriage where one spouse doesn't want to go for therapy. So you ask your spouse to go for therapy. Your spouse says no. What are your choices? Either you tolerate it or you leave. And I'm like now you know? Now the good thing is, if you work with me, I can help you find your unique ability and strengthen your confidence so that you feel confident enough to leave and go somewhere else, because you know what you're worth yeah, yeah, which?

Stuart: that is a resolution as well. I mean getting past whatever elements are keeping you in a bad situation, whether it's in the marriage sense or in the business sense. It's still an awareness and if the only thing that you've got control over is you making those changes, whatever the outcome is, it still changes for the better. Sometimes, when we're talking to people about the idea of creating a book as a lead generation tool, as a business building tool, it's that there isn't unique ideas. People get a bit hung up on this idea of needing to create something absolutely unique to put out there, but oftentimes a financial advisor, for example there's not too many completely unique schemes that can be set up. It's a relatively fixed framework.

You're at the opposite end of the spectrum, bringing together this relatively unique idea in the way that you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. That you're bringing it together as the jumping off point for the conversation is that this information doesn't exist out there in the world in this way. So that's obviously the purpose for bringing it together, but the idea of using the book as to introduce the idea to more people? Did you come to the book project knowing that you wanted to use it in a particular way, or was it a case of here's the ideas that are in different places? In the way that I work, I wanted to bring them together and then see how to use it. Was it a tap to the ideas first or a definite way of using it first?

Rachel: Yeah, oh, that's a good question. So I wanted to write this book for a while and because I'm a visionary at heart, my follow through is not very high, so I just kept on starting, stopping. And then I read Diane Sullivan's book, the Four Seas, and he mentioned the book and I was like, oh shoot, I don't have to do it myself. That's awesome. I ended up doing this transcript and then rewriting the whole book, but it gave me a framework. It gave me a really good for it was that start.

I always like my website. I told my website designer when you give me a word document that has words on it, I can't see what this is going to be. I said cut anything up, publish it, I'll look at it and I'll tell you how I want to change it. So the idea of this book was literally to do like a tell all and put this information out there in the world. Working with 90 minute book gave me this idea of like hey, this is lead generation, create outcomes, create three. What do you call it? Call action yeah, yeah.

I wasn't. That wasn't originally my plan to create the call to action. I figured like I'll put that book out there, I'll talk about it to people that I know on, you know, social media, and people will buy the book. But I didn't connect it to lead generation. So then the book got stalled a little longer because I had to go set up a website and get everything in place so that when the book publishes it does lead to somewhere.

Stuart: So now I'm super excited.

Rachel: I set up a website. I'm working on a course, a self-paced course that you take online workshops, one-on-one coaching, which is really exciting. So I really appreciate that you guys pushed for that angle, you know.

Stuart: Right, it does give it. We talk a lot about the idea of traditional books versus conversation starting books and they have 90% of benefits crossover in terms of authority and credibility and putting the idea out there. But the downside to traditional books is that model is the book is the product, and the whole world is around book sales and the book being the thing, whereas for the rest of us, real business owners, where the conversation is the outcome, the conversation is the thing that we're trying to get to and the book is just a mechanism, a very effective mechanism, for starting that conversation. So it's just those little switches that change 5% maybe of the content, but at least it leads people in a path to help them get to that next step which ultimately leads to jumping on a call or whatever the discovery step is.

Rachel: Yeah, it totally changed for me, because I'm not planning to make any money off the book, I think, because what I'm going to do is print a bunch of copies, put them into pretty boxes and ship them to people. And it's a good gift to give to people, it's a good thing to bring to shows. It's the business card.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly, and those models if you've got. We talk sometimes about invisible audiences versus visible audiences, so invisible audiences, it's difficult to buy a list of people with knee pain because that list just doesn't exist in that way. But it is possible to get a list of COOs. So the book exists. Now you can change the format of it, do hardcover versions, put those in a box If you were trying to target, like line fish, some individual, specific people. The opportunity to do that now that it exists, changing the format, changing the context in which you use it. There's a lot more opportunity now that it exists.

One question I know that we're running up on time. It's turning into a standing joke at the end of all these podcasts I'd say how quick time goes, but it always catches me out. One question, and again probably from a personal perspective the implement, the integrator personality type of the element of kind of fact-based discernment, however good that is, and the visionary personality type of really driving something forwards almost to the exclusion of logic or sense, at the extremes of both of them. What's the? Do you have any advice for someone who is naturally in that integrator space, that's the, the thought process, but is also responsible for the visionary side of driving an idea forward and is very on board with the idea, has the vision, but what's the? You were talking about the having a different definition of add, but what are the elements of the visionary that are useful for a integrated based organization more than a visionary based organization?

Rachel: okay, so why do you think you need to change anything?

Stuart: Well, okay, so our organization? So okay, the example is me, so our organization is the product that we've got, I think, is very good because it sits in the nice sweet spot of very effective and not getting too carried away in the best seller BS of something that's not really effective. We've been doing this for 13 years now. There are a number of competitors around that external view first and internal view second. I think my natural head is the other way around internal first and external second, which is great from an operational point of view. But I mean that has its limit. There still needs to be more push on the outside. So very selfishly, I'm saying what? How many times I have to tap myself on this part of my head to get into switching into more of that external, that visionary forget about the operational side and into the driven side?

Rachel: is it that the business is not going fast enough?

Stuart: yeah, I think there's, yeah, two elements one it's the generally the growth and two, it's almost a little bit of the. When we started this, we were the only game in town at this end, this part of the spectrum. But now there's lots of people doing it in a more external way now, operationally, I don't know what they're, whether it is better or not, but still, whether or not there is a problem externally, I think that the I feel that there is a problem internally, that my natural tendency. If I get to the end of the day and didn't have the reminder to do something external, I would have focused all internally. So there, there seems to be a visionary trait that I'm missing that would be good to pick up on. I'm guessing that I'm not alone in that.

Rachel: I know, okay, I get it, I hear you so. So this is what I sometimes see that people that have more integrated traits, their businesses, don't grow that fast. Because you want an insurance policy for every step you're going to take. You're more free, you're more risk averse. And then when I sit with these teams, what happens is something I observed is visionary goes and says I want to make 10 million the next two years. Integrator says that's not possible because they're looking from where they go today. The visionary looks where I want to be and then they work their way back. So being more visionary is saying you know, when I sit with teams and I want to set their goals, they're like why don't we set 90 day goals before a 10 year goal? Because then I said, because that's when you want to go to Florida, you might end up in Canada.

Right, if you sit down, I say what's that ultimate goal? What do I want? And don't get distracted by what others should ands like what other people want for you. It sounds like you're stuck in that typical coo space where you're worried about what other people want for you instead of what you really want for yourself, and maybe you are perfectly okay with a type, a kind of business. You're just feeling, you know I don't know what the word is, but you're feeling like, oh, I should be doing x because everybody is doing x, right. So asking yourself, what do I truly want? What does that look like in 10 years? And then saying what do I need to do today to get there? Gets you more of that external view. If you're saying, I want 1 million viewers in 10 years, great, what do you have to do today? So you're going to have to start talking to different types of people and doing different types of activities, because it changes your trajectory.

And that's the difference between COOs and visionaries. And now a COO asked me how do visionaries take so much risk? And the answer is by the time they take that risk, they've mitigated all the other risk. So visionaries make calculations and decisions so fast that when they decide that they're going to jump in, what looks like a risk for you is already a mitigated risk for them Because they've calculated all the possible outcomes. They've decided that they are okay with taking that leap. Like, if they take a 10 million dollar risk, they've calculated how they're going to lose it, how they're going to make it back, what's going to happen if they lose the 10 million? They're sitting with it. They're okay to lose the 10 million, versus a ceo thinks of taking a 10 million dollar risk.

Stuart: They think they're gonna die right yeah so maybe yeah, that's an interesting thought, that idea of there's so many ideas and on the next, that the mitigation is almost that the next idea has popped in and is already crowding for space. Yeah, that's interesting way of looking at it. This has been fantastic really. Personally, and I think the people who are on the list that we send the email notification out to there's a big crossover between this cohort of people. So I think this unique idea and way of thinking about it no matter which side of the visionary integrated fence they are, or even if those words don't mean anything, but still the setup in the organization, whether they're a real estate agent who's responsible for their own book, or in a larger organization, there's still elements of this I think are really going to resonate. I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the book, and what's a good place for people to head over to to find out more?

Rachel: So they can go to www.empoweredcoo.com and all the information is on there. They can find me on LinkedIn.

Stuart: Fantastic. Make sure to report all the links to the places in the show notes so as people are listening on, they'll be in the podcast player or if people are on the website, there'll be a link there. It'd be great to circle back in a few months and see how the books go in the reception. Once it kind of comes to that, join together and finalize what the reception is out there, because I think it's going to be really kind of game changing for a lot of people. So if you're up for it, it'd be really great to get back later in the year yeah, I created an online free assessment that will show you on a scale of being empowered.

Rachel: You know, visionaries on the positive side, integrators on the negative side. The assessment is for integrators. It's from negative five to negative zero, so negative five is very enmeshed, very codependent. Negative zero, center focus self. You know, situation focused. I've been talking about it a little bit. I've got a lot of people that have already taken the assessment, so people are waiting for the book to come out.

I'm just a stickler and I wanted it to be perfect. So I'm putting the last finishing touches and hopefully it'll be out in the next few weeks yeah, and that's the thing I mean.

Stuart: that's the other good thing about this model is guaranteed. In two months time you'll see something else that you want to change and from the feedback that you get, there might be some deeper diving and elaboration that you want to put in there based on that feedback. But at least that's an option here and you can make all those changes at any point in the future. But I know what you mean about wanting to get that first one out of the gate as good as possible. Rachel, really appreciate the time Everyone listening. I'll put the links in the show notes to the website and Rachel's LinkedIn page, so definitely follow across there and then, yeah, we'll circle back in a few months and see where it's landing for people.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Stuart, for having me. This was a blast.

Stuart: Fantastic. Thanks, rachel. Thanks everyone for listening. We'll catch you in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with golf disruptor and author of 'Your Golf Club Lies to You,' Dave DePula, about his novel method of coaching golfers to improve their swing.

Based in Palm Desert, Dave shares his journey from real estate deals to the driving range and reveals his approach to helping people break bad habits by going back to fundamentals.

His book serves as a powerful tool, a testament to the value of joining a conversation that's already brewing in the minds of your ideal clients. Dave discusses the importance of identifying their motivations, understanding their challenges, and the unique value his book brings to the table, sparking meaningful conversations.

With an identifiable market, like golfers, we discussed marketing tactics, such as placement in pro shops or targeted ads, as well as practical methods for building rapport using books.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/165

Dave DePula Contact Information:

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome to the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here again, and today joined by Dave DePaula. Dave, how are you doing, buddy?

Dave: I'm great Stuart. How are you?

Stuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. Okay, today's going to be a great show because occasionally maybe 50% of the time I'm chatting with people who I haven't necessarily talked to before, because they've been through the process and for whatever reason we haven't needed to talk. But what I like about today's call is that you and I have talked lots, so I'm kind of coming to this with a little bit more insight into what's going on. So hopefully we can kind of dive a little bit deeper and bring some of that out. But I guess, to get everyone else up to speed, why don't you give a bit of an intro on you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit?

Dave: you and the background and then we can dive into the book a little bit. Yes, so I'm from new jersey. I've been out in california for about 14 years, former real estate agent, and I love that, and now I help people play better golf, lower their handicap and, more importantly and most importantly, have more fun. So I never work a day in my life. I'm out in the palm desert, california, and it's I hate to say it, but like living the dream. Everybody says that it's actually really true.

Stuart: So that's well, now that we've kind of made everyone jealous and they've turned off it's. I'm over in pennsylvania, just outside philadelphia, so it's, uh, chugging it down with rain here today and it's terrible, so you made the right choice in moving out west. The book is. It is really interesting because the whole premise of playing golf it's out there and doing it. So people wouldn't necessarily think of a book as a first thing to introduce people to the idea. But your specific approach to helping people reduce their handicap and play a better game it's almost introducing a slightly new idea. So give people a bit of a background on the product and the process and then we'll get into how the book is kind of bridging that gap sure.

Dave: So let's do a little backstory. I've been teaching, I've been playing golf since I was 30 and so that's about 34 years ago, and I've been teaching it for 14 years and fundamentally most, if not everyone's golf swing hat didn't really change like little fringe stuff, short game stuff. I was only always in the search for how to fundamentally change a golf swing, and not until I met my partner, dan Martin, and we came up, or he has this training tool called the pro, which replaces the shaft with a. So two major factors in not being able to change a golf swing. Number one is the way it's taught. So it's taught prescriptively.

In other words, stuart, you do this or don't do this, turn your hips, turn your body, do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that, and humans just don't learn that way. So you didn't learn how to walk that way and you certainly didn't learn how to ride a bike that way. So let's imagine for a moment that a little child I guess you're around one when you learn how to walk I guess I don't have any kids, but let's say that's the case and the child was able to understand the language of its parents, and can you imagine if they said okay, little Stuart, what I want you to do now is lift your leg up four inches, turn your hip to the left, make sure you're. I mean, we'd have the entire human race crawling on the ground because they'd be so frustrated. And that's what I found in the golf industry and it's nobody's fault, but it's the culture like the culture of things. So I had to break away from that culture and it would happen by accident, and that the culture is a prescriptive thing, where this training aid teaches a person A how to be free and B when you learn how to straighten it coming down, starting your downswing, it teaches the body how to move.

Without me saying a word. Matter of fact, the person who's training themselves isn't even saying anything to themselves. It's actually a visual process. And then the body's learning, learning. And again it's like a child eats a, you know, learn how to eat with a spoon or a fork. It's all over the face, it's all over the floor and then, like now, I can do it with pretty much out without dropping it, with some distracted or something. But once again, can you imagine if a baby was taught how to eat and they were told to move their elbow at 45 degrees, nobody would be. It would be sloppy everywhere or slop everywhere. So this, basically, is 180 degrees opposite of what's being taught out there, and the beauty is it's a fun process because it's actual learning and what I'm, my definition of learning is evidenced by a change of behavior, not some information. I can. I could know intellectually that cigarettes are bad for me, but until I stop smoking it doesn't mean a thing.

Stuart: Yeah.

Dave: It's the same thing. So I can read all about the golf swing and what Tiger Woods does. So, like Jack, nicholas wrote a book called Golf my Way. Okay, can't golf his way, I can't golf Stewart's way, I have to golf my way. And this process teaches a person how to literally have an elite golf motion. And once it's trained, once you're trained so it isn't endless golf lessons you train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point A to point train, just like you learn how to drive a car. Now you go from point a to point b, you already know how to drive. I'm sure stewart didn't wake up today and say, okay, I need to practice my driving so when I leave the driveway I won't hit somebody. No, so think about how ridiculous it is, but it's hard to. It's hard to see it when a person is inside of it yeah so so it's.

Stuart: I don't say it's my job, I'm just introducing something outside of the culture that actually works that real world feedback, the kind of interaction with the thing and learning by doing it, creates such stronger paths and it's it's interesting as you describe it. You kind of think of all the scenarios where you're trying to tell people how to do things and it's just not landing properly. I was actually thinking of the book business and a lot of what we do is trying to verbally share a message with people. But there's a few things we do around titles, workshops and things which are a little bit more interactive, that kind of get people to think, have an experience beyond just what we're saying. So I should probably revisit that and there's probably some more depth to it.

But from the golf swing particularly so I just want to dive quickly into the tool itself. So the the muscle memory connection in taking that swing and the visual, visual indication of seeing the rope on the device being straight all the way through the swing, that's the thing that is the break for people. It's that consistent golf swing which is replicated by the rope yeah, so I'll explain a little bit more.

Dave: So the golf club is a rigid object and, because it is leverage, can be put on the shaft, on the club, and what that does is that ruins the golf swing. So Bobby Jones, who might be one of the best golfers ever, if not the best, said if you want to learn how to swing a golf club, put a ball at the end of a rope or a string. So basically that's what this is. So in order for someone to have an actual swing we actually call it it's actually a swing like you throw a ball that it just replaces the shaft. I can't jerk this around. It has to be in motion. So it's one entire motion.

So two things. We're overcoming the rigidity of the shaft, which is the problem of every golf shot. So if I admit, if I hit it fat or thin and the golfers are listening to this, they'll know or it goes right or goes left, hooks or slices, all misses are because someone has put a leverage force on the shaft. And then, when I put a leverage force, the equal and opposite of newton's I think that's third law. Newton's third law for every action is an equal and opposite reaction. So if I put a force on the shaft here, my body's move over here differently. When I make this part of body and that's what the pro teaches you it's one entire motion and it's simultaneous, synchronous and balanced, all learned by the body's natural learning system, without Dave saying Stuart, do this and do that, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, and all you see on the driving range all over the world is pure frustration because you can't learn it that way it's impossible.

I'm not here to say you should or shouldn't do something, but if it's not useful and it doesn't work, yeah, find a different path. But once again, if all I know is prescriptions and you're a golf, if you're, and you're a golf instructor, and you're telling me something and it doesn't work, well, I need another prescription, and that doesn't work. Then I get another prescription, but it's not the prescription, it's the prescript process that doesn't work. So we're really transcending that yeah, changing the methodology completely.

Stuart: So this is an interesting transition into the book I did, and so obviously, the physical, the physical necessity of having the tool and practicing the swing and getting all of that, that feedback through the body. I think a lot of people might then fail to make the connection into a book, and that's what I really like about this project is it's tying those two worlds together. So talk a little bit about the book and then we can run into how we make that connection between the book and and the real world product.

Dave: But thinking about writing the book and the content that's in there and who you talk, who is being targeted or can make the best value from it, talk a little bit about that audience yeah, so it's basically any person who is a sincere enough golfer and has a desire to change their golf swing, and maybe one of the primary sort of looking for qualifications, if I can use that word, is frustration.

Stuart: Right.

Dave: And once again, if you look at a driving range all across America and the club club where I belong, everyone's frustrated because, number one, they're getting a prescription, whether it's from a YouTube video, the instructor at the club or some book. That will never work. Who reads it or who gets introduced to it? There's a better way. Okay, prove it to yourself. It's not about me saying this is the only way, but prove it to yourself.

One can learn how to do it. If they can literally just get a piece of rope, it would definitely help them. This is it's going to be more of an accelerator because it has a what do you call this thing? A little weight. At the end it's a little, but ultimately it's all about learning for yourself and in yourself and this training aid. Or if one had a rope, basically, if a person, a golfer, was on the driving range and no preconceived notions of how to swing the golf club, they would teach themselves to have a pretty good to swing the golf club. They would teach themselves to have a pretty good golf swing, even though if they, even if they put some leverage on it. But it's when the interference of prescriptions or me telling somebody how to do it. So the book is basically our way of saying there's a better way, check it out and then introduce them to what we have available, and then someone decides for themselves whether they'd like to try it or not.

Stuart: Right, that idea of frustration being the consistent element amongst all of the audience, taking it away from a qualification step of it's not just a golfer, it's a golfer who's frustrated with it. And they're frustrated because what's the saying? There's the unknowns, unknowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns and no knowns, those elements of the stages of frustration. So if you were naively just smacking the ball around and still having fun, well, that's fine, but that's not the audience, it's the frustration element. So the title of the book talk a little bit about the title, because I think that will resonate with people who are in that situation yeah.

Dave: So the title is your golf club lies to you why your golf swing never changes and what to really do about it. So it doesn't change. For two reasons again, and they're equally as important. One is I'm putting a leverage force on a shaft and I don't even know I'm doing it. And number two is everything is prescriptive and someone's telling me what to do or what not to do, and it just can't work that way. I can't.

Even so, if I had a whole list of what to do, the body's moving so fast and the brain is moving so slow relative to the body that I couldn't tell my body what to do in that amount of time. So that's another element of frustration. And let's put it, let's call it non, non results or no results is that I'm literally trying to tell myself how to move my body. So if we were in person and I threw a ball to you, you would just catch it, or if I threw something out, you would stick your arm up and catch it, but if you told yourself how to do it, you get hit in the face. Okay, so it's just amazing how the culture of golf and there's no criticism of it, it's just the way it is how the average handicap never changes, the average golf swing never changes and the professional golfers, despite how much they want to change their golf swing, it pretty much reverts back to what they've been doing. They make a little tweak.

Stuart: But once it's built, unless you have something that is non-prescriptive, that can, yeah, overwrite those pretty ingrained patterns. What I like about the title and the subheadings that you've got is that it really punches home some of the it's not. There's a level deeper, there's an emotional resonance with it, a level deeper than just the how to in another world it could have been how to improve your golf swing but the idea of people resonating with that, with the words that you're using, the description, I think it's as people are thinking about writing their own books. This idea of we do try and tell people to balance, the idea of not being too clever because you don't want to hide the message and not make it obvious. But yours strikes that right balance of you, the target audience. It's obvious what it does, it's not hidden.

But it also touches on those emotional pain points and and some of the language that is going on in their head already. There there's something's not right element of I'm trying these things but they're not working. We talk quite a lot about the call to action in the book and the fact that there is a job of work that it's trying to do. It's trying to lead people to the next step. So the content talking about the two main frustrations and opening people's eyes to a new way of thinking about something is one, but we do have some commercial intent in the project and the thing that we're doing, so stepping people through to that next step, with your next step being so kind of like physically based Talk a little bit about those where you're leading the audience to.

Dave: Yeah. So in a perfect world, the message that we're sending in the book would resonate so deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Deeply that they would immediately buy the pro. Or if I was rich and didn't need to pay my bills, I'd give them one for free, because having this in their hands is going to absolutely transform their golf swing in a relatively short period of time.

But I can't force that on somebody, right? So everybody's gonna only do it whenever they're ready, right? So whenever they're ready, so we offer that and that you know a scorecard. But ultimately, if and this is part of like honing my message so it does resonate and it inspires action, not just for me and be profitable as a business and of course I want to do that but for the person who wants to improve their golf swing and their frustration, get out of swing prison, hit the ball farther and straighter and have more fun and lower scores all that is possible, okay, I proved it to myself and my students. However, someone who's just hearing this they might have to hear it a bunch of times or whenever they're ready, they'll do it. But ultimately, honing the message so succinctly, coming from the heart, that, like bam, they get it immediately right.

Stuart: I think that's the thing as well, this idea that sometimes people need to hear things several times or in several different ways. The book has a tool to identify those invisible prospects that might otherwise be difficult to get in front of and then be able to share something immediately useful with them. The end result, the product, is easy to conceptualize. It's not like it's some random formula and pat themselves on the head and tap their nose three times. It's not complicated, but you've got the ability of, once you've captured those details, to share some of this ongoing information for those who aren't ready yet and with it being such a visual element that kind of adds to it, because it's a mechanical movement but there's a visual way of sharing stuff.

So I know you've got a lot of super useful videos and explainers and guides and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message, and tips that you can share with people in the meantime just to reinforce that message and share that passion, until they go out to the golf course for the last time and try the latest YouTube video that they've watched.

And then it's the straw that breaks the camel's back and they think back ah, dave, had something that I should try. The videos that you've got and the way that you kind of engage with people and share this information is that was that right first time out of the can. You kind of thought I know I need to shoot some videos on it's these three subjects and that will hit the mark. Or did some of it come from feedback from you've obviously been doing this for a few years, so did it come from feedback from all of the interactions over the time and it's more? It was kind of like more user-led content when realized that someone was struggling with a particular thing yeah, so everyone's in it for themselves, right?

Dave: so if I had a video that says the reason why you slice the ball, but you don't slice the ball, you hook the ball, and you wouldn't pay any attention. Okay, so there's people who slice it and hook it and hit it fat, hit it thin. You can use a general term like inconsistent ball striking, but ultimately it's connecting to that one person. So I mean I could shoot it. I could shoot a video and say, uh, are you tired of losing golf balls? And that's not going to resonate. But if somebody went out and played around the golf lost six pro pro Vs, which are very expensive title is pro Vs, a little plug for them. And then they saw a video that said are you tired of losing golf balls? Bam, I just connected with that person.

So each person is going to have their own affliction or problem with a golf club that's leveraged. So a golf club that's leveraged is going to produce all of the bad shots, but each person is going to put leverage on it in a different place, which will have a different result with the ball. So if I put leverage on the top, it'll more than likely slice it. If I put leverage on the bottom, it'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the bottom. It'll more than likely hook it. What's the answer? Learn how to swing the pro so you don't put any leverage on the golf club and it doesn't matter whether you hook, slice, hit it fat, thin. Those problems will go away after one is trained yeah, and that's a great analogy.

Stuart: I was actually talking with someone earlier this week about this idea. It was a new client we were working with so I was describing the analogy I used was imagine it's a like a strip mall with five different business doors or five different doors in there, but as you get to the other side it then opens up into the one business. So each doorway, each entrance is exact, as you said. Everyone's in it for themselves. So the doorway number one that talks about hooking the shots, that will resonate that group of people. Doorway number five that talks about losing balls, that will resonate with those people. But on the other side it all opens up into the same place, which is the don't need leverage on the club at all, and this is the way you do it. So I think once the a lot of of people we talk about creating the books in terms of a campaign. So I don't think about traditional books, think about conversation, starting books in a campaign sense. But then that kind of locks people's thinking into oh, it's good for this particular campaign. The next level of thinking around it, the next situation, is to think okay, we're thinking about it in terms of campaigns, but that campaign can have multiple entrances. So, just as you described, once the book is created as an asset that serves a number of those entrance points but within the same general problem, then you've got lots of different ways in. So the five facebook ads that talk about the five different swing problems, all leading to a book called your goal, complies to you, then that makes the asset much more leverageable to put over my words today makes it much more leverageable and useful in lots of different ways.

The fact that you can interact with people and the scorecard, as you mentioned, is one of the follow-up steps in the book. So as they're answering those questions, you see what the results are. You hear them talking about a particular frustration. Last week you recorded a video that was useful on that. Three years ago you recorded another video that was useful for someone else.

But this idea of being able to use all of these little assets within the overall campaign toolbox makes it so much more valuable and, like we say, a book has a disproportionate amount of value that's given to people, or people assign a disproportionate amount of authority to it compared with those exact same words just in a different format. The fact that you can follow up with a book, talking to people, give them a copy of the book as a next step. It's just very, it's very easy to use it as a leveraging asset. So on that point, I'm talking about the different ways of using it. Obviously, facebook ads targeted around golf courses to particular demographics of people who are likely to be the ideal customer is is the first way that springs to mind, but I guess you've got the opportunity to use it physically in some cases or in different.

Dave: Yeah, so I don't have the, so it's brand. So the book literally just came out less than a week ago, so I only have the electronic version and we are running Facebook ads Now. We started in the local area but now we expanded it to the 20 most popular cities for golf. We have the Facebook leads down to like $1 and 61 cents. It's amazing. And the ad is just, and we tried one with the picture of the book. That wasn't so great.

Now there's just a video of me saying your golf swing isn't broken, there's nothing to fix. It's lying dormant inside you waiting to be revealed and then offering the book. And that's just a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this, if a general thing to say. We're not even saying read this if you slice the ball. We're not even doing that. Yet. We'll try those, the physical books. I'll take them to cigar shops and literally, like you know, get permission to drop them off different country clubs and golf courses that will allow me to do that and give them to my current students, have them in their bag and somebody says, hey, how did you, how did you hit the ball so well, like you used to be terrible.

Stuart: And then he's handling the book yeah, that, actually that can imagine a scenario where someone's been playing with someone for years and suddenly their golf swing improves and someone says to them how the heck did you do that? And I can imagine a scenario where they're pulling the book out but then kind of tucking it away or giving it to their friend and ripping the back page out, or I can. It seems to be that I don't play golf but I've got friends that I like to wind up about things, so you can imagine this scenario where the, the referral, the referral world in the rest of the world is, is you haven't got the same opportunities to kind of give it to your friends in quite the same way that you do here. So I can imagine lots of fun stories coming out about that.

What you were talking about a second ago, though this car shop as an example, this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses where their audience is your audience I always try the default go-to when I think about this example is always kind of like chiropractors and physiotherapists and people in that space.

We've worked with people in the past who have helped cyclists and some other groups, but the idea of of chiropractors or I can't remember whether that's a UK term or a US term, but physiotherapists, that type of world, because what you're offering doesn't compete exactly with them, but their audience crosses over with your guys.

So I think I'm going to try and remember this as that example of competing, non-complementary, non-competing audiences, because there are going to be a lot of chiropractors or PTs who have got golf playing clients, who have potentially injured themselves on the golf course. You're not offering any competing service to them. You're offering a service that can for the, for the PT or the chiropractor can give them a copy of the book and say, hey, we'll get you sorted out. And actually this is Dave's book talking about the swing itself, because the problem that you've done is from putting leverage in and tweaking your back or pulling something and it just seems like such a nice it's a nice way of amplifying and adding value to their audience without being competing. So, anyway, that, I think, is a great opportunity and it's the example I'm going to use going forwards, because it's pretty obvious to people yes, which gives me an idea where I can actually go to different chiropractors and personal trainers and to have a mailing list.

Dave: Say, look, I want to send this out like it's totally free, it won't cost you anything. And then that gives them something to offer, yeah, as a added value, and it gets me out there when somebody already has a list yeah, exactly, you can imagine, I always compare it to, I always think about it in terms of, like the affiliate marketing world.

Stuart: That's not the world that I play in at all, but when you see good affiliate campaigns set up, they'll provide all of the assets to the people to make it as as easy as possible. So you can imagine drafting a email copy or a letter or a introductory thing that reinforces because you've got a copywriter's head on your shoulders you can reinforce the, their value, you can kind of play up them in a thing that is actually delivering your thing. So there's a lot of way of binding that message in to really give the benefits on both sides. We should do a kind of outside of the podcast but we should do a bit of a brainstorm idea on this complementary competing group of people. Sure, because it's so non-competing it's, it really seems like there's a big opportunity to open that.

Open that yes, I agree I was actually just got back from florida last night. I drove down there, had to see a client halfway down, so they boat manufacturer, super yacht manufacturer. So we were talking to those guys and they were going through a load of assets and there was a whole load of visual elements going through it, their brochures. But as we were leaving the town that it was in north carolina was this little cute little town out in east north carolina and, um, as we were leaving, michael the guy gave me the book it's downstairs, gave me the book on the town. So it's kind of almost like a little memorial book of the town, but it was actually generated by a realtor in town. So this idea of Michael adding value to the conversation I was having with him talking about the town, and this third-party realtor had written the guide and the history and some nice illustrations. So again, this idea of other people being able to amplify your message because what you've created gives value to that audience, so many opportunities to drill into that a little bit more.

Okay, off on a bit of a tangent there, sorry. So this we talked about the next steps and the idea of people will. We've got that hook that captures their passion and the frustration and the thing that resonates with them. We talked about a couple of the advertising marketing places to intersect with where that audience is. They kind of receive it and the next step, hopefully, is that they'll be very frustrated and order a pro in order to be able to fix this issue that they've got For that group of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who aren't ready to move today. So it's for most businesses. It's the minority of people who take action straight away. But then, if we can stay in touch with them over the longer period and intersect again when today's the day that they've just hooked it for the last time, what steps do you either have in place at the moment or think about putting place in order to stay in contact with people?

Dave: yeah. So, keeping in line with Dean and Jackson's stuff and your stuff, we have the first 100 days. So when someone gets the book, they immediately get an email and says thank you for downloading the book. If you didn't get it, here's a link. I didn't put that in there yet, but I'm going to Grab a cup of coffee. It's a great read. That was one of Dean's things. And then the very next day uh, I hope you're enjoying the book. How often you get to play golf. So the goal is to strike up a conversation. I have so far I have 46 leads in less than a week and I think four or five. I have conversations started and then after that, every seven days, an email goes out with a super signature which is a call to action. So whenever you're ready, there's four ways I can help you Come to a workshop, buy a pro, get the scorecard, or come see me one-on-one at the driving range. We'll splash in the tub. So that's what we have.

Stuart: Yeah.

Dave: And then it'll be the flagship where, again, once every week after that, there'll be an email. So where I am right now is the book is to have somebody raise their hand. It's already working beautifully. Now it's honing the process of converting those leads Right, and initially the emails are like a part of the book put in there.

But I'm actually gonna, I'm actually gonna hone the message so succinctly and it's going to be so short. A message like, for example, prescriptions, like the truth about the golf swing prescriptions don't work, that's it. And then ask then, like I want it to be more of a question and not even a question that's going to be answered to me, but to themselves Stuart, why do you play golf? That's the like, not me educating them on the swing. Every single email, maybe it's again. So I don't know what the process is. Let me rephrase that I don't know what the process that works is but a probing question. Then a little information about what we do and another probing question yeah, right, so, and so right now we're in the we're in the converting. I'm in the converting the leads process of seeing what works and what works best yeah and I always think.

For me personally, I think less is better right because people are time constrained.

Stuart: I mean long. I've never been a fan of long form landing pages because I don't know how far people get through them. The long form emails it just gets a little bit too much. The ability to consistently or regularly do less, because us as the insiders, we kind of see every email that we write and we kind of sweat over and give attention to it. So our view of our own outbound marketing is seeing 100% of the big picture. But the recipient, even the most engaged clients, you know yourself from your own mailbox, even the people who you really want to read their message and you're really in tune with it, and in a perfect world you'd consume every single one, even those people you don't open every single email because you're out on the golf course when one comes in and then three hours later when you get back it's gone in the stream. So I think more regular but shorter and more consumable is the better way around of doing it rather than just hoping that there's this one mammoth one that will do all of the work.

Dave: So, yeah, I completely agree. And also it's a matter of how well does the email connect with the person that's reading it? So, for example, I read every single one of your emails and every single one of dean's emails because it has value to me. Okay, and I've been getting dean's emails for years and years and I've definitely, like I bought email mastery and I bought the a profit activators like online program, but then it was years before I did anything else, so it could be literally a year or two, but as long as the content that's being sent that person has value to them, they're going to open it yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stuart: A funny story that we tell sometimes is one of the realtors up in, payann Kenny, who's a good friend of ours. He we've told this story before, but he purged his list once. So he's been around for I mean decades. He purged his list and said okay, anyone who hasn't opened a message in or hasn't haven't had any contact with in five years, I'm going to purge them off. I don't know why, because it's no more cost of keeping those people and purging them. But anyway, he was in a spring cleaning mood so purchased the list and then about eight months later got a voicemail which got a phone call which went to voicemail, so he was able to play it to us next time. He was down in fort lauderdale in uh, in winter haven and the message was hey, kenny's Bob here. I hope this is the right number. I don't know what happened. I must have done something so I got off your list. I used to get your message all the time. Anyway, my sister passed away recently, so we're selling her oceanfront home. We've got an oceanfront home that we want to sell and then we want to consolidate and buy somewhere a little bit further inland now that we're getting older. So anyway, I hope this number is yours. I actually had to find another realtor in town to get your number, so anyway, I'm really hoping this finds you.

There's kind of the backside, the back end of that story is everyone assumes that leads are dead after a certain point. But this person, just as you said, had been happily consuming the stuff for a period of time until they were ready. Ready, and then the point that they were ready because kenny had purchased the stuff months before. They had to jump through several hoops in order to get back to the person who they felt was their guy. It's just that kenny had no indication that he was their guy for them. But how many people on that list never went to those steps? Are we ready to sell our house? What was the name of that realtor guy? Oh, you know, I don't know, but I don't get his emails anymore. Okay, well, let's just pick up the yellow pages and call someone down the street.

So, idea of separating out the collecting of the leads from the converting of the leads and then the converting of the leads it's only either today or not today, and it's not. If it's not today, all we can do is keep putting stuff out there and hopefully on the day that is the day it will intersect. So yeah, great, great insights on the life of lead conversion. I always also like that story because I kind of imagine it from the point of view of the intermediate real estate agent that got the call. So he kind of answers the phone and the guy there says, oh yeah, I'm trying to sell my two oceanfront homes and buy another one. And the guy rubs his hands and say, oh, fantastic.

Dave: How my two oceanfront homes and buy another one, and the guy rubs his hands and say oh, fantastic, how can I help you? Well, do you have kenny's phone number? And then the other side of that story is and this definitely resonates with me, because I used to be a real estate agent or a broker and finding out someone that I sold let's say, I sold them a house, just sold their house, or listed their house, and they didn't call me, but I never sent them one single thing right, yeah, yeah, yeah, how many times the opposite of it yeah, yeah, you think that it's easy to think that, okay, I'm the person that they know I they.

Stuart: Why would they not call me next time? But if someone else, it's so in the moment, like even with people's best will and intention. If it's like with referrals you hear that all the time. Oh, you know what? You just mentioned something about the golf swing. I was with someone last week who was complaining about their shot all the time. I should have said something.

Well, we can't rely on other people to be as into our business as we are, so to be able to consistently send them something of value. The fact that we've got a tool that helps them opt in makes that invisible prospect visible. But now we've got something that we can refer back to. And I like your approach of linking back to things that are mentioned in the book because it does give that consistency and it doesn't have to be every message, but at least kind of re-anchoring it every so often. It helps people understand and remember what the message is like.

Point three on why that swing currently sucks. They might not remember it haven't just read it once, but after three or four messages where you're illustrating or iterating on the point. It just helps people kind of remember and that element sink in. So that just means that they're more likely to remember you at the day when it becomes the day, that is, today, or if they're talking to someone else. They've got a framework in which to remember you by um time. I say I think this is my standard wrap-up for podcasts. I always say that time goes fast, but but it really has done. Again, I want to make sure that people can follow along and see what you're doing and if they are a player, then do something to improve their swing themselves. So where's a good place for people to go to to find out more?

Dave: yes, so they can go to YourGolfClubLiesToYou.com, and that's where they can get the book. Or they can go to SlingTheClub.com, which is my personal website, which they can also get the book there as well, and some other goodies that they. If they see, uh, the value in that, I'd offer a little advice to someone or so anybody listening who's a golfer, whether you get a pro or not, learn to teach yourself without anybody giving you instruction, and you'll be far the better for it at least you kind of got that consistent message in your head and there's not kind of all of these different conflicting messages coming in if you do it that way around yeah, well, I would say, like, the person who's going to learn the fastest is one who doesn't have any preconceived notions how to do it right, yeah, yeah, yeah it's.

Stuart: I just remember I've changed vehicles recently and put a uv tint on the windows to keep some of the heat out, and on the company's website it was there was a price for doing it fresh, and then there was a price for doing it if you had an existing film on there, and the price for removing the existing film was like three times the price of the actual job. It illustrates that point that trying to remove someone else's work or trying to over bad habits, it's a lot harder than just going in fresh and learning to walk by taking the steps rather than, rather than, consuming which leads, which just reminded me of something.

Dave: So the truth, which is what we have here. So this is the truth about the golf swing, and my workshops are going to be called that. As a matter of fact, I'm going to shoot an email to the 46 leads I have and say, hey, we're doing a workshop. The truth about the golf swing. Would you like to join us? The truth is always a subtraction to the least common denominator, the simple, and that's what the pro does and that's what the swing is to get rid of everything. That's not your true swing, and what's left is your true swing.

Stuart: Right. That's such a great way of thinking about it and I think the majority of business owners out there who are on our list because they've thought about writing a book in some way, that's true for them as well. Less is more, in a certain way, and just taking that one step at a time towards being able to help someone. But the simplifying it's a busy world out there, so the more simplification the better. Dave really appreciate it. Everyone that's listening. We'll put links through to Dave's two sites in the show notes and in the podcast player, so definitely check out those and follow it through. Dave, thanks again for the time today. It'll be really great. Let's circle back in a few months and see how things are converting and what that follow-up sequence is turned into. Because I think what that follow-up sequence is turned into, because I think this will be valuable to share with people some of the ideas that we test out there thank you.

Dave: Story had a lot of fun. Thank you fantastic.

Stuart: Okay, everyone, thanks for listening. Again, as I say, check out the show notes and follow the links through to dave stuff and where. If today's the day that it's good to get your book started, then obviously just reach out to us and we'll be here to help. Okay, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Trisha Talbot of Doc Properties to explore the synergies of healthcare and property investment and how she's using her book 'Essential' to start a conversation with the investors she can best serve.

With over two decades of experience, Tricia shares the field's potential for both returns and social impact through facilities that elevate care optimized by telemedicine trends, and we cover why the asset class attracts stakeholders seeking stability and community benefit.

Trisha's book is an invaluable resource to the investors she works with, outlining the benefits of these opportunities, such as long-term leases and triple net arrangements.

It's a great example of understanding your clients' motivations and creating a book that provides value to start the relationship.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/164

Trisha Talbot Contact Information:

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Trisha: I wrote the book to sort of to provide it from an investment angle of this is how the asset class, like, this is kind of an overall description of the asset classes is why it's important.

And these are the mechanisms, the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long term leases are are the primary. Um, reason why this asset class is so successful

Stuart: eHy everyone, welcome back to another episode of the book more show. It's stewart bell here, and today I'm joined by Trisha talbot. Trisha, how you doing? I'm doing well, thank you. Thanks for having me. pleasure, I'm excited to share this journey with people.

As we get a chance to share author stories with people, I think it does a couple of hopefully it does a couple of services for people. One, it kind of reminds them that, hey, this is something that they should do as well. But two, it really kind of highlights the different paths and approaches that people bring to the project. We always kind of we've all got the same outcome of trying to start conversations with people and we're using books as that mechanism. But how we each get to that point, or or the the steps we take through the process, it's, but how we each get to that point or the steps we take through the process, it's unique for each individual person. So I'm excited to share your journey. So why don't we start at the beginning and give people a bit of background about who you are and the organization?

Trisha: Sure, my name is Trisha Talbot and my company is Doc Properties. It's a healthcare real estate investment and advisory firm. So I'm coming out of the brokerage side of the business. I'm having about 20 years of experience doing every type of transaction, but specifically well, I'd say 90% in healthcare properties, and I really like the asset class for a few reasons.

One, because I feel like the buildings and the facilities serve a great purpose. You know people, even though telemedicine has started to develop, it's not going to replace inpatient visits. You know there's, I think, remote monitoring and stuff like that are going to enhance and enhance health care services. But you, any critical care, any chronic care and any examinations or procedures always have to be done inside a facility, and so those facilities serve a need and a purpose that I think is good for society. So that sort of drives me to want to stay in the asset class. And then you know real estate. There has to be investors in order to have those facilities, and so I think it's a great investment for people and for people that are looking to have impact investing or purposeful investing in something that is going to impact others. I think it's a great way to not only have a mechanism to grow your capital, but also a mechanism to impact people in a real way people in a real way.

Stuart: It's interesting, isn't it? Because you think about telemedicine and the all the heat and light that's around moving things to remote. But the opportunity that it opens up is these facilities now are going to be dealing with a smaller volume of people. They don't have to serve quite such a broad purpose. They can really niche down to provide the, the specific care for the type of person that's coming in, without having to worry about catering to all those people who are covered by by telemedicine and that first stage kind of triaging. So it makes it a real um, the use case or the usefulness or the, the job of work. The purpose of those facilities can become much more targeted because they don't have to be so broad, and that seems like it's an opportunity both for better customer experiences but also for investors to really dial in and anchor into that the value that those particular types of buildings are providing.

Trisha: Yeah, I mean it benefits the whole healthcare ecosystem in a very big way. So not only what you're talking about, but people in like rural communities, you know, to have an initial triage over Zoom or whatever the platform is, and maybe some follow ups, or you know if it's, if they have one conversation and there needs to be other conversations with some specialists to really try to dive down so that when they do have to drive to an hour, hour and a half to a facility, they more or less know exactly what they're going in for, instead of having to go, you know, four or five times for some tests that may or may not be needed. So, or, and and I mean healthcare the industry itself is just plagued with, you know, being astronomically more expensive. Insurance companies are pushing back, um, you know physicians are are realizing um less on the reimbursement side, but you know that's not keeping up with inflation and so all of their other costs are going up.

And you know patients themselves now that they're burdening a lot of the costs of healthcare system, they really want it to be specific and precise.

And you know it's also good for the medical community because there's a lot of things that can get taken care of before you get to like a really high end specialist that you know doesn't see patients, that are and I say that's just, you know not a waste of their time, but that shouldn't be seeing them, that they should be seeing somebody else. And so all of these medical care clinicians, you know they can really operate at the top of their license and specific to what they're doing and that makes them better at what they do as well. So I think it's a small part of a bigger ecosystem in there and obviously this is, you know, the real estate, is this fixed asset, but if you think about the ecosystem that it serves, you know, I think these facilities can be really specialized, like to your point, and when people come in, they come in, they get exactly what they need, they have the right practitioners in there to serve them and, you know, and it saves everybody cost and time, which is, you know, valuable.

Stuart: Yeah, your clients in this relationship? Are they on the real estate side they're the either the investors or the property owners or are they the practices and the practice managers who are kind of kidding out and looking for the right facilities? Are you dealing on both sides? Yeah, so I work with both.

Trisha: So I work with. So the co-investors that I work with, they, they I do have a lot that are physicians. They tend to have a high net worth and they, you know, like to to have a mechanism to continue to grow their capital, and this is an easy asset for them to understand. They do, do you know? They invest in a variety of things, but, um, this is something that they can sort of sink their teeth in and really understand, so I think it's easy for them. Um, but I do have just investors that are interested in in real estate investing, and this is one asset class that they invest in it's interesting.

Stuart: We often talk about niching down and addressing that single target market as if you're talking to the one perfect client. But it's really a. It's a reminder that the world is full of huge niches that are very specific enough and as people are thinking about writing a book for their business and there's always this fear that I don't want to miss out on people by being too specific but the idea of a real estate investment area that's specifically looking at medical properties, as an outsider you'd think that that was very specific and and unique. But your experience and the clients you work with, this is a huge business that, just within this particular discipline, is more than big enough to support a business in its own right. So this idea of dialing down and being specific it allows you to talk the language, speak to the people at a level that they're comfortable and convenient with. Was that the case from the start? Did the business start out specifically with medical properties or did you dial that niche in over time?

Trisha: you know I've always I mean I worked some office, but mostly, um, I found the medical office more interesting. I felt, um, I was helping the clients better. You know they they're they're these busy practicing physicians and they want somebody to advocate for them. They need to understand the decisions and the financial impact. They have to have space. That, you know needs to be in a way that they can. You know that's a work that also has the not only like the basic functionality but, you know, allows for conversations and solving all those problems made my day more interesting than you know just traditional office users that need. You know a couple of private offices that are in a room, in a conference room, in a bullpen area. So you know it's just a personal preference.

Stuart: Yeah, and when you find that niche and it resonates and you kind of naturally tend towards that group of people, it's almost self-selecting in a way. Um, yeah, the investors that you're working with, um their motivations, um, there's the return on investment, which everyone, I guess, kind of thinks of as the initial thing that they're interested in. But as you've worked with them over time, that kind of superficial or surface level interest, does that go deeper into? You talked about some of the um the psychological uh, not psychological, the uh preference benefits of wanting to work in this industry because of its stability, and then the, the giving or the doing good element of working in this industry. The investors that you're working with, has there been that level of more deeper connection or their motivations, above and beyond just the? This is a good asset class to be in.

Trisha: So that's probably more my motivation and why I keep doing it, but obviously the numbers always have to make sense for you know, you're not going to get people to invest, you know, just on an idea and a hope, and nobody should.

But that's where. So that's kind of the. The reason why I put this book together is because you know that's that's why I do it and you know that's my why. But you know and obviously at the end of the day that translates into finding good investments that you know it's a win win for everybody. But the book I I wrote that you know it's a win-win for everybody.

But the book I wrote because you know it's not going to win any Nobel Prizes, but it's a basic introductory to what is a medical office asset, why is it so valuable? And people that and it can talk to both parties. So when clinicians sometimes want to occupy or invest in a building, when they're an owner user, you know, over the course of my career I've had, you know, very sophisticated clinicians that are very well versed in it and then some that come to the table just saying, hey, you know what, I'm a physician and I'm a really good practice and I should get like the lowest lease rate and I only want to do like three years and oh yeah, I want the landlord to build out the entire space, which is like half a million dollars. And you know I don't want to put any skin in the game and you know there's a reason why that can't happen. I mean a landlord, landlord just has to say no. I mean there's no way that that makes sense.

And because most of them have, you know, debt and then also other investment partners you know, that that doesn't work and so, you know, I wrote the book to sort of to provide it from an investment angle of this is how the asset class like. This is kind of an overall description of the asset class. This is why it's important and these are the mechanisms the financial mechanisms of why it can be so successful. And the long-term leases are, the landlord can fund a significant amount of tenant improvements because of the lease terms and the lease rates are a little bit higher than traditional office. I mean, they're not as high, I would say, as sometimes retail, but they are a little bit higher to account for that and they're mostly triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant triple net. So those operating expenses get passed on to the tenant. And that's better for both parties.

Because in medical, you know, there's different practices that use different levels of electricity and it's not necessarily fair, if one is a super high user, for the other tenants to pay for that. And then also each practice seems to, in my experience, have their own particular preferences for cleanliness, and so then you know, trip trip also allows them to hire their own janitorial company. So there's a lot of reasons that that's a good thing. But for investors, you know, in the book I kind of explain why these mechanisms are the way they are and how it, you know, adds to the value of a medical office building asset. And I do it in a high enough level where, you know it just sort of gives them an overview. It's a really quick read and I intended for it to be that way.

I'm in the process of finishing recording it, so to be on audio as well, and I think at some point you know on video and I think at some point you know on video.

But you know I wanted to be able to say you know, here's the mechanisms of how to look for a good medical office asset, like what are the mechanics of it. So when then you know, down the road, you know I hope that it encourages people to give me a call and, you know, be interested in hopefully investing in properties that I find, and then it will be easier for them to understand when I'm explaining why the asset is valuable. You know what financial aspects of it make it make sense for a good investment. And then hopefully, you know, this book will give them a little bit of enough education where you know they can understand what they're investing in, which is the goal. I mean, you don't want to invest in something you don't understand and you shouldn't, so. This, I think, at least gives them enough information, where then you know the additional questions that they have. It will help them finish their due diligence it's such a great point.

Stuart: I was just on a call with someone before we. We've recorded today and making the the point, or or sowing the seed of the idea that the book, the product of the book, that outcome of the the job of work, is to start that conversation. It's not a college textbook. You're not trying to educate people in the complete how to do it yourself, because for most of us that's not practical. I mean, the likelihood of someone taking all of the steps themselves is pretty much zero. So the opportunity of the book is to either A introduce a new idea to someone, someone who is familiar with investing but hasn't thought about medical as a specific niche, or, if they have, then highlight two or three of the key, um, the key elements of it that can make it a successful, a more successful project than another. But the outcome is always a conversation with someone. Now, as you say, hopefully that someone is you, and the book is a great way of identifying who those people might be in order to keep the conversation going right. But the outcome, the product, the job of work is that conversation and to write something that is a accessible introduction, that gives people enough value and creates that sense of reciprocity or relationship building that translates into a phone call. That's the real difference maker.

And I think the point that you said at the end is also a key one that often gets overlooked. It's this idea that when people do, then eventually reach out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is out and you have that call. The conversation that you're having with them is informed by the information that they've already read and consumed. So at least you know they've got a. Even if they just look at the table of contents, there's still some key signposts in there. At least they've got some level of understanding. And then if you're saying things, or as you're saying things, that echo the words that they read in the book kind of subconsciously, that's the it's not the first time they're hearing it you're reinforcing something that they already believe. So it really does. This idea of an introductory start to the conversation, I think, is the best way of thinking about books absolutely.

Trisha: And, um, you know, uh, for it's also, you know, for investors to that are maybe familiar with, with, you know, investing in real estate but haven't really ventured into medical office. And you know, for both target markets of mine. I've just gotten the question so many times like so what is so special about medical office, why is that important and what makes it so different? And it's you know, obviously I can have two sentences, but you know, doesn't really it wouldn't, so my two sentences aren't going to make somebody write a check. So this, you know, I think this dives into it a little bit more. And, you know, for those that are familiar with real estate investing, for those that are familiar with real estate investing or those that are familiar with the health care industry, you know it sort of brings both of them together to understand why this is an important asset class. And both from you know, I start with describing how it relates to the health care industry, but then also, and then, but it does have to have.

Stuart: So you know, it is a commercial real estate property, so it has to have certain financial fundamentals in order to and highlighting those elements for people, particularly in this um, in this arena, where people, even if they don't have a very good understanding, a lot of people have got a good reckon or think they know what their area is. So it's not, you're not introducing a brand new idea, it's the nuance of this as a subset of all of the properties you could choose. Here are some really unique elements to this as an asset class separate from the other commercial elements. So I think it's. It makes it then easy to, or easier to highlight a couple of those key takeaways and those key um difference makers in in property selection or investment selection. You can really identify a couple of things that are building on real estate investing as a general topic.

So, it does allow you to move that conversation a little bit faster towards positioning you as the expert, because you've got this niche understanding and, like we said at the start, putting it in a way that is accessible and friendly. And the introductory level, because no one wants to read anything where they feel stupid or that no, yeah, it's not an investment book and it wouldn't.

Trisha: it would be unfair to you know, even kind of describe, like I mean I could describe other investments that have been successful, but I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to.

I didn't want it to be um, numbers heavy and super jargon heavy, because then people start to tune out and they close it, they don't want to pick it up and so and I think people like to see numbers easy, like on one sheet of paper, and be able to understand it. And you know, trying to put it in a book over various chapters where somebody feels like they have to sit down and take notes or open up a spreadsheet to understand what you're saying Wasn't wasn't the point. And every single property is different. I mean there's no property that's the same. You know two properties can't occupy the same space, just in, you know, by physics. So you know there's, there's absolutely no, no property investment that would be the same. So it would be unfair to really sort of say, okay, you can talk about other successful ones, but I really wanted to stay away from that in this book anyway.

Stuart: Yeah, because, again, the job of work is to encourage people to reach out and call, because that's the real, that's going to make a difference for them having a tailored conversation to their requirements and their area and their specifications, and the deals that are available today and not the deals that were available yesterday.

Yeah, you talked at the start about the different formats for the book. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions. So trying to make it as accessible as possible in terms of an audio version and video versions, this idea of the book being the jumping off point of the conversation. But then there's it's people are either ready today or not today, and that not today might be tomorrow or it might be in 10 years time. So this idea of keeping people engaged have you, is there, anything set up in place at the moment? Or have you thought about that in terms of okay, once someone's requested a copy of the book, I know that not everyone's going to call me straight away, so what information do I have? What reinforcing or amplifying elements are there that I can share with people over the long run that keeps them engaged?

Trisha: Yeah, so, um, you know, the the book is free to download the the hard, the electronic copy, and so I'll give my email at the end at the landing pages. Um, just just gotten finished so I can email them the landing page, but it asks them for, um, their email and phone number, and then it they'll get another. You know, they'll be brought through to the download and so once I get their email and phone number, I'm going to call them, you know, and just introduce myself, thank them for being interested in my book and just offering myself to answer any questions once they finish the book. So to make that connection. And then I have a monthly newsletter that I send out. I send out one for clinician owners and one for just investors. They're welcome to sign up for both, but the information is a little bit tailored, so I send that out and then you know I periodically I'll send out, like, some educational marketing materials.

I try not to spam people's email. I know that the I think the marketing professionals would say that I have to send something out every week and maybe I should. But I just feel like my clients are very busy and when they get 200 emails in their email they just start randomly deleting and it doesn't, you know, they don't read it. So I think monthly has seemed to work. Um, my unsubscribes have gone way down and I think that's because my emails are are, you know, they're not spamming their, their system, and and they're pretty informative and easy to read, like the newsletters sometimes that I get. That it's almost like you have to sit down and kind of like, read a book again.

I'm trying to think that nobody has time these days. That didn't want to do that. So I keep mine very, you know, light on words, big on pictures and lots of places that they can click to, depending on what they're interested in. So I keep them engaged that way. And you know, as I have properties to invest in, if they're part of my community, then depending on what they're interested in, because then I ask in if they're part of my community, then and depending on what, what they're interested in, because then I ask them if they are interested in investments and they have another form to fill out to tell me a little bit more about what specific type and price range, and so I try to be very specific and targeted in my marketing the the right message at the right time.

Stuart: It's such a difficult balance, as you say. A lot of people recommend just keep going. I think it's Dan Kennedy, like the Dan Kennedy approach. It's something like the five-star prospects on the list of five-star prospects regardless and anyone who isn't a five-star prospect they're a waste of time anyway. So you might as well just keep hammering and hammering and people will self-select. But that's a very aggressive approach and particularly with the long burn, the long time frame of this type of investment. It's not a checkout purchase where you just hit a button and you can buy whenever. This is built on relationships and trying to find the right deal. It could be a multi-year approach.

Trisha: So it's a multi-year approach and it involves a ton of trust and you know, once they trust you and you know they've invested with you one time and it's successful, um, they, they trust you again. And so I don't keep that lightly and I don't need a thousand investors. Um, right, I, I need investors that believe in the product type that you know, trust me enough. I mean, their money is retirement money or it's savings, or it's generational wealth that they're trying to preserve, their, their capital. So you know they're all, they're all investing for, I think, a personal reason at least. At least you know the people that I've been talking to, um, and so you know, I, I take, I take the relationships. I'd rather have hundreds of intentional relationships than thousands of unintentional relationships.

Stuart: I guess that would be a good thing I think particularly the nature of the clients you're working with. It's a high ticket item that, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above working with it's a high ticket item, as you say, the numbers have to work. But above and beyond that, it's the trust and the relationship that the person's got that that you're the right person to manage and put together the deal.

Trisha: Not, it's unlikely that it's going to happen without having a phone call or a conversation. It's not just wiring some money. Someone sends me a check and I don't know who they are. That would be weird. So I would be finding out who they are pretty quick Because you know, both peace of mind and KYC requirements. That's my due diligence. I do need to know who you are too, right yeah.

Stuart: Likewise, if a suitcase of money turns up, you can ask some questions there yeah, the suitcase of unmarked bills shows up um yeah, my brother I've mentioned it before on the show my brother's a yacht broker, um, so obviously they're dealing with high-end clients and at the one end of the spectrum there's kind of lucky losing tire kickers and at the other end of the spectrum there's kind of the the long, long-term relationships to to get to a sale. But, uh, I often think that, um, I often think that he has to do a certain amount of due diligence as well, both from the the lucky side of it and not spending too much time on people who are just really not, um, not in the right place, but then from the other side as well. This is quite a lot of money and and you must see the same where people's assets come from it can get quite complicated. Some. It's like moving all things and combining them together. There's a certain amount of due diligence. Just make sure that you don't fall the wrong side of some later investigation.

Trisha: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of fraud and so you have to be conscious of that. I don't, I don't need that in my life and you know they're doing. You know now you're a small business, you know you have to report who you are, and the beneficial owners, and you know their wire fraud is on the rise.

Stuart: And then there's all of these anti-terrorist clauses and things like that, and so, yeah, you gotta, you gotta follow the money and make sure it's coming from the right place yeah, again, another reason why starting the conversation with the book that leads to the people who are interested in the subject, and then following through with the material that you're putting out. It's all relationship building over the long term. So those names on the list that you become familiar with and the emails over time as that builds into a relationship that ends in a transaction, it all helps to give that certainty that you aren't dealing with a real person with a real situation at the other end. Yeah, um, the ideal clients. We were talking briefly about the people who you work with, and some of them are investors and some of them are on the medical side. The ideal person is what am I trying to say, the ideal person within that group? Do they have certain characteristics? Is this likely to be their first deal, or are they seasoned investors? Or are they, more often than not, owner operators?

Trisha: Or talk to me a little bit about who the ideal person is Well, they need to be accredited investors, so they have typically hit a. If they are employed, they're high net earners. So if not, then they are just high net worth individuals. But so they have to. They, if they are, you know, employed, they're usually, I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists. I mean, I think they're mid to late careerists, but I don't think any. I think early careerists would probably invest in properties that their practice owns as a way. You know, I think that's the way they would do it.

But they're high net worth individuals of some sort to be accredited investors is the target.

Stuart: Yeah, interesting. Actually, I never really thought that because commercial residential real estate you don't really think about people having to be accredited. So that extra caveat, understanding things like that though, as I'm thinking about people listening to the show there's some people who fall into that category and this might be a market for them them they haven't necessarily had access to before because they haven't known a person. But then for other people who don't meet that criteria just the assessment that you've gone through and the understanding of who the clients are. So writing at a level, writing, writing the book and then reaching out to audiences at the level who are accredited, this idea of beneficial constraints this now in the scope of what you're doing. So understanding who it's not for is almost as important as understanding who it is for, because it just helps in the creation process, right?

I imagine there's a. There's a line between. It's easy to find yourself going off on a slight tangent and talking to groups of people who aren't the target audience. In your case it might be non-accredited, but that would be an easy line to see. But even where the line's a little bit um, not as explicit as that, it's easy to talk off on a on a tangent. So having this idea of beneficial constraints where you really know okay, I'm talking to this person in this scenario, probably coming from this position it just makes the whole creation process a lot easier. Did you notice that, as you were bringing it together, um, what was included and what wasn't included was was clear in your mind?

Trisha: yeah. So I didn't particularly address that, the high net worth accredited investor in this particular in the the book, and it doesn't. I mean if you're interested in the asset class, I mean there's different ways to become an accredited investor. You know you can create LLCs and you can pull money and you know there's, so there's there's different ways to get there if you're really driven to do it. But you know, I remember when I was, you know, early in my career and I sat down with a financial advisor and you know you're like looking at what you're going to do for retirement and you're like, okay, well, obviously, stocks and bonds over the long term, yes, yes, yes. But I said what is? You know, what is investments in a three to five year investment horizon that you can make money at beats the stock market? And he was like, well, that's the million dollar question that everybody asks. So you know, everyone has different buckets or should have different buckets of money and, um, you know, three to five years stock market.

You know, for people that like stocks, they like stocks. I like I understand real estate, I mean I understand, um, stocks, but I find it more interesting to understand a. I understand real estate, I mean I understand stocks but I find it more interesting to understand a piece of real estate from the right role and personal preference. And I enjoy the stock and bond market but that's a very long-term one and you know, while I'm you know I got I got a long runway left and I really like getting in there and understanding these, turning properties around and, you know, selling them for more than you buy them for and really adding a lot of value. So with that, you know, I've always it's always been like well, what do you invest in for a three to five year time horizon? And it really goes to.

You know you have to find private investments, but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people. You know you have to find private investments but that can be also risky. I mean I've heard horror stories of people you know investing with others that you know they they get are either like hit with so many fees that you know the investor doesn't make any money and then they never do it again.

So the private market it's I think it has a ton of wonderful opportunities, but you have I mean it's like you have to look at a thousand deals to find like maybe five that work. It's not just the investment part, it is also the person behind it. So a couple of things is one, you know, I wanted to introduce myself a little bit but then also introduce the asset class. And for people that aren't credit investors yet, you know they can very well be in any given you know, maybe next year. So it's more to educate people about the investing in the asset class so that they can be educated and if it's not now, it can be later. So it didn't really in the book, it's not just, you know, it doesn't really talk about the type of investor, it's really more about why is this asset class valuable?

Stuart: Right, and that's such a great point as well, actually, because this idea of not sifting and sorting there's a low cost of acquisition of people who are interested in the book and therefore you're able to get names and email addresses. So there's no need to try and filter at this stage because, just as you said, the person might not be, it might not be their time today, either because they're busy doing other things or they're not yet accredited. But six months, 12 months, three years down the track, that relationship has been built from today. So no need to sift and sort.

Trisha: There's no additional cost of having those people on the list's just all upside to build a relationship yeah, and then if they get on my email list and they, you know, do read my emails they'll get to know me a little bit more. Um, you know, in all of my emails I I took the advice of somebody to add a little bit of a personal snippet. I've never really done that before and, um, I'm like who cares about my personal life? But people, I think, when they're investing with you, they kind of want to know who you are and what your values are. So it's just like one paragraph and like a photo of some recent activity of some sort.

But you know, so if they get my emails, they will get to know me a little bit, and I think that's important because I think you really want to put your money, you want to spend your money based on your values. You know, I think um for a lot of people, and so, if you so again, like I said, the financial asset that you're investing in is just one part of the puzzle. It's also who are you investing with? Um, and it's as important as am I going to get my money back, which is the million dollar question, um, you know, and am I going to make money on that? So, so all of that goes hand in hand it's interesting.

Stuart: Um, in the last couple of weeks I've in. It's one of those things where you kind of uh, tune into something and then you start seeing everywhere, but the personal elements I, my natural position is the same who cares? Just crack on, let's do the work. But it's definite that people build a rapport and when I think about the podcasts I listen to or the YouTube channels or the books I read or the people that you follow, there is a certain sense of relationship there, even if it's very one-sided, right, even though I, when I talk about it, I undervalue those things, I think in my own experience I do value them and it's and it's probably we obviously encourage people to put stories and anecdotes and examples in the books to illustrate them, as mentioned before, but including some of the personal stuff.

I wonder, actually, on the landing page you were talking about going from the landing page to the thank you page, including a video on that page with a hey, thanks for downloading a copy of the book. It's one of the key points I really wanted to get across is X, y and Z, but it puts your face there and puts a real person to it. That might be an interesting thing to add there.

Trisha:

Stuart: Um, cam always goes fast on these podcasts, I think I know everyone by saying it goes so quick. Um, I want to make sure that people can get um find out more about what you and what you do. I know the landing page isn't up just as we're recording, but where's a good place to point people so they can find out more?

Trisha: yeah, it'll be up in just a few days and unfortunately it's like a perfect storm because my website's being redone and like the landing page and everything. So the easiest way to email me, trisha [email protected]'m very fast on email so I'll send you the landing page right away, as soon as I get it I'm not instant, but you know I would say within 24 hours or so I would send it to you. So just email me. I think that's the simplest. [email protected]. My website is docpropertiescom and it will be. It's up. There is one up, but there'll be a new one up fairly soon and from there there'll be a link directly to the book from the webpage.

Stuart: Well, I'm not sure that we've put so I think we're probably we're recording on a Wednesday, I think, so we'll put this up the following Friday, so by that point some things might have changed. But either way, recommend that people go across and take a look at what you're doing. I'll put links to all of these in the show notes so, as people are listening on podcast players, there'll be a link in the show notes, or, if people follow the email through to the website, we'll make sure that all of the links are there. And then, if you're up for it, it'd be great to reconnect in or get you back on the show in a few months and then see how it's landing, what, uh, what feedback people are giving, and then, from your own perspective as well, the different ways that you're now using it once it's out there and and in the world.

Trisha: Yeah, no, I would love that. That's great, thank you. Thanks for having me again perfect no real pleasure.

Stuart: It's a. One of the highlights of the week is getting to share people's stories with everyone else, because again, I mean subconsciously, I hope it kind of reminds someone. Oh yeah, I've been meaning to this for a while. I should. Today's the day that I should get around to it. But also just the opening up people's minds to this idea of amplifying your message, of sharing your message out there.

A book or another piece of content doesn't have to be absolutely unique. It doesn't have to be war and peace. People are people, are desperate for making those connections with the people that they can learn to know, like and trust, and if they can find trusted advisors or or people in certain spaces. You can be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the medical property side of things. Someone else is going to be in the veterinarian side. Someone else is going to be in the accounting side. Someone else can be in the book marketing side. So, yeah, just put it. Put it out there and it's. It doesn't have to be difficult.

Trisha: Well, and I think you know you never know until you try. So you know, I think, what happens. You know you're, you're this professional, and you're going, going and going. Then all of a sudden people are starting to say, wow, you really know a lot of stuff, you're like I guess I do, and people can read it or send it before a meeting. You know, get some of those initial questions out, just so that you know when they come they'll have even more informed questions that you know really we can sink our teeth into. And, you know, get a dive a little bit deeper than staying at the surface.

So yeah, and you, you know, you don't know until you try. And a book like this, I think it's like 60 pages. You know, I think you can get really disciplined and and, and you know, write a little bit every week and you get it done before you know it yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that Mike Tyson saying everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the face.

Stuart: The flip side of that is, uh is, put things out there in the world, because you never know what's gonna resonate and and take off. So, absolutely, um, thanks for your time. This has really been a pleasure. Everyone listening, uh, check out the show notes for links through to trisha's website and, uh, to get a copy of the book if this resonates with you. Um, this has been really great. Thanks again, and then we'll circle back in a couple of months and check in and see how things are going wonderful. Thank you, thanks, thanks everyone. We will catch you in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, I dive into the art of messaging with Global Credibility Expert Mitchell Levy.

Mitchell and I were introduced earlier this year, and in talking to him, I really connected his work with our approach to helping business owners start conversations with clients and customers.

In the show, we dissect the struggles professionals face in articulating their value and unique position in the marketplace and the power clarity and credibility have in personal and business branding. A challenge that could become harder in an AI-powered world, but where an abundance mindset means AI becomes a huge advantage in leveraging leadership.

We discuss the strategic use of books as credibility tools and the importance of an authentic presence, and I share my journey of dialing in the message and determining who we can best help.

Finally, we highlight Mitchell's upcoming, free CoachingFest event, which will bring together 14 leading speakers to help professionals grow their influence and define their message.

Though it's called CoachingFest, this event is relevant to everyone listening, not just coaches, as we're all here to refine our message and get more clients. It's well worth checking out the link above.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/163

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Mitchell: So, given the CPOP I plan, it made a lot of sense to pull some of the best coaching voices in the industry to be able to have a two-day summit. So it's a free event. It's called coachingfestcom. Stuart, put in your link in the notes right, and the opportunity here is some of the best voices who are talking about well, do what you love and the money will follow. Craft what you do, that you love doing. How do you provide a service in such a way and what do you charge for it?

Stuart: Hey everybody, Welcome to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Mitchell Levy. Mitchell, how are you doing?

Mitchell: Stuart, I'm doing great, thank you, thank you.

Stuart: Me too. Me too, I'm looking forward to this. The last couple of shows that I've done have been with people who I haven't had quite such a relationship with in the past. So you and I have met relatively recently, but we've had a lot of time to spend together. So this is I'm coming into this knowing a little bit more than I've done, kind of exploring the conversations with other people. So I'm excited to be able to share this with the audience. Why don't we start with a little bit of background on you and what you do Share with everyone listening some of the things that you were sharing with me?

Mitchell: Let me so I'm. The title that I'm using for myself is Global Credibility Expert, and I birthed that title by interviewing 500 thought leaders between 2019 and 2020. So it was my Napoleon Hill journey and prior to that way, back in the dot-com days, I was working at some microsystems. I left there. Since there, I've been in Silicon Valley for 30 years. I've started 20-ish companies, including running multiple conferences. I've got four book publishing companies, so I don't hit the thousand mark, but we've hit 750. I focus on I'm part of Marshall Goldsmith's 100 coaches, so I actually am a executive coach and have a part of my business for that. And where I'm really excited now what I've been focusing on is I've sort of unraveled what does it really mean to be credible as a human, as a business person, and with that credibility, I've actually gotten the clarity on what does that really mean, and it was sort of the short answer. It's the missing step, but the bigger picture happily married for 35 years Is that right?

Stuart: Oh, let's say yes.

Mitchell: And she wrote what yeah, happily married 35 years, have a son who's 25. And we were generally. I'm in Silicon Valley and life is good.

Stuart: That's the. I didn't realize there was a stone history. My background is IC on the project management side, so it's a little bit of a. I think we bonded a little bit in the way that we talked and described things, so maybe there's a slight underlying engineering connection that's coming through there as well. This we connected.

Really, talking about the credibility piece, I think that was we were introduced on linkedin by a slightly random connection, but the credibility piece is what really resonated in what I'm doing personally in the business, but then for our clients as well and as we were talking more and going into it, your position, that credibility and the clarity that comes from that, being able to define it in a particular way and using that as a jumping off point for all other messaging that particularly resonated. And I think that's really why I wanted to do the podcast, because for the people who are on our list, that this will go out to the people that we've worked with, trying to amplify their message and get their message out there in the world in a kind of conversation starting way. It all comes back to that seed. So, with the people who you've worked with, that experience that you bring to the conversation, where are most people, in terms of both the clarity of their messaging and then the credibility elements that they bring into it.

Mitchell: You know, when I was doing the research and have found later, and so we're talking about over a thousand individuals and corporations. I'm going to give a number that's just absolutely preposterous 98% of everyone I've spoken with 98% do not have clarity on who they are and how they show up and can articulate that in less than 10 words.

Stuart: Right, it's such a. That was the piece and I struggle with it as well. Even being relatively, I mean the book project, we start by telling people that they need to dial in that single target audience. But even for the work that we do, and then, as I do more and more LinkedIn conversations, the introduction calls with people to be able to crystallize it in such a small way you find yourself tripping over the words or adding in extra elements that defining and refining the message down. Do people tend to start with a broad understanding and then it's just getting specific on it, or are they very scattered in? Well, I could do anything for anyone.

Mitchell: More than latter. We've been taught, so it's so funny. We've been taught something. I'm going to say many of the lessons that we've been taught are wrong. We were born knowing the answers right. So when you were born and the first time you go to a playground and other kids your age, you know that playground, that sandbox, is like the entire universe, and then another person that looks like you goes into that universe and you are instantly friends for life and you play forever, long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again. And you play forever long, you get to play and then you probably never see that person again.

Right Now, if you think about the metaphor of going into a playground because you have a common goal to go on the swing together or go on the seesaw together, whatever tools you're playing with what's interesting is we've been taught we'll stick with the playground metaphor. I've never done this one, so we'll see how it turns out that more is better, right, the bigger the playground, the more things we can do, the continuous enjoyment like more is better. So when you're serving an audience, yeah, no, I don't like the playground. I'll come back to the playground, but let's go back to human nature when we talk about who we are and how we show up. We've been told, well, I work with. And then we need to give 10 or 20 definitions of different audiences we work with, because the more things we do this is what we've been taught the more things we do, the better chance that we're gonna capture the intention of somebody and they're gonna go oh my God, I love you, let me use that service. The opposite is actually true.

The more narrow you could be in terms of how you present yourself, the more focused you could be on how you present yourself, the better the opportunity the person is going to say hey, you know what? I think I need this. Or I know there's somebody in my network that needs this and, by the way, can you do this other thing as well? Right, it's really now you have a choice, right? So there are people I work with who solely focus on men or solely focus on women.

It is clear that, as they're talking about who they are and they come across so strongly and so powerfully that the person of the opposite sex I know you say you only work with men, but would you work with me? Or I know you say you only work with women, but I'm a guy, I'm kind of feminine in my characteristics. Would you work with me? So the interesting part is the simplicity of us, and I'm going to go back now to the playground of articulating, a playground we play in. Because, by the way, stuart, if you don't love what you do, you need to play somewhere else. If you don't love your job, you need to find something else that you do love.

Stuart: Yeah, it's a great analogy and I think even more so it's amplified where we are at this point in time in society and technology and the overwhelm of all the messages it's almost, and again the overwhelm of all the messages. It's almost, and again analogy is going to fall over. But it's almost like the autistic. My wife's a kindergarten teacher and they've got a connected organization that looks after special needs kids and the autistic kids in those programs are quite often overwhelmed by the stimulation, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders, so they're out in nature, so that's not quite so stimulating. They're wearing ear defenders so they're not kind of overly overstimulated.

But I think all of us to a certain degree are suffering from the same problem. There's so many messages coming in that as your eyes are filtering however many messages are out there unless you're seeing something that you recognize and resonating with something, that message just passes by. So to be able to talk in the language that people use, to use examples that resonate with them, to be consistently present in that way, it just gives money more indicators that they are likely to respond to rather than just having to filter out because there's so much noise out there. I think also it comes from a scarcity point of view. There's a in business I mean in life generally there's a feeling of scarcity. The country's too small, the business is too competitive, there's not enough food.

There's a scarcity narrative that lies underneath everything which is we need to take and claim this, otherwise someone's going to get it, as opposed to the abundance framework of there's we were talking about uh, there's always a problem when you're talking with someone who you know well, because your mind kind of jumps all over the place to different conversations that you had in the past. But we were talking about the ai space and the narrative. There is around a lot of the the media at least taking jobs, causing problems, that the restrictive or the removing elements, rather than the abundance of this will create a whole new industry. That's never been seen before. And the fact that going into something with a specificity but knowing that as long as you pick a target audience that is big enough, then that can be the jumping off point for everything else. It's a much more effective way of thinking about something.

Mitchell: I even got to the point where I wanted to interview 500 thought leaders on credibility is that I had recognized for a long time that book publishing was, and currently is, democratized. Anyone who wants to, it's very easy to create an asset called a book. Well, something happened interesting in 2023. In 2023, not just book publishing is democratized, but thought leadership is now democratized With AI. Anyone can be a thought leader in a space by just having the right prompts. It doesn't mean they have the experience and capabilities the simplicity of focusing on an audience, being able to articulate with that audience words that they can relate to so immediately that they're like wait a second, I need to hear more. Right, and so for me, the I, I first I made a mistake and then, if you're okay, we'll talk about your C, your about your CPOP stands for customer point of possibilities. This is the methodology, the approach that I use. That it's a mechanical approach and I'm going to say that mechanical approach has heart and with that heart, it allows somebody to articulate who they are and how they show up in less than 10 words. So we will share that.

What happened when I was interviewing 500 thought leaders on credibility? What I kind of realized that or thought by the way, I was wrong that what I need to do is I need to actually sell credibility and to go into marketplace, and hence the title Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. Global Credibility Expert still a great title, and that needed to come first. And it turns out that many people sell credibility, many people are pushing at that, and let's go back to that number I gave earlier in the show 98%. Even the people who are selling credibility. When you ask them about their clarity and you ask them whether or not they're delivering clarity to their clients, the real answer is no.

Stuart: Right.

Mitchell: Right. So a massive aha for me was the recognition that clarity comes before credibility.

Stuart: Right from a kind of a hierarchy of human needs type perspective, that clarity. If you're trying to build credibility in something that you're not clear about, it automatically brings in variance and a lack of specificity and a breadth that can take you off target and going into a different playground. So that, thinking about that clarity first but then understanding that the credibility piece is immediately after it, I think together they really build to something that will help people engage more with the audience that they can help, because it's the line fishing approach rather than the trawling the seabed. It's the line fishing approach of knowing who those people are. It helps dial in all of the other activities and again, not to the exclusion of everything else, but there's only so many units of energy in the day. If you're going to do something and you've chosen the thing to do, then you can double down and really make it as effective and as efficient as possible. Yes, yes, do people have? Well, thank you, but I'm just replaying what I got from you the other day People have.

Sometimes, when we're talking about writing books with people, there's this idea that in part they're thinking about a book as a traditional book. So it's broad and covers a lot of things in some degree of detail. So there's a breadth perspective that people come with and we're often saying people, okay, it's depth more than breadth that you're interested in, particularly for this as a product. So, as far as the clarity piece goes and the job that we're trying to do is really to get that down to 10 words, so it really hits the mark. For people Is one of the biggest problems that they have this idea of dialing it in and being as specific as they need to be, and it's kind of philosophically the idea that they struggle with. Or is it more mechanical in the sense of they accept the idea but all of the language that we use and the way that they're taught is very difficult to be narrowing in the language. Is it more philosophical or mechanical?

Mitchell: I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. I'm leaning towards philosophical as the. There's a psychological thing. So let me talk about me and my CPOP for a second. We'll talk about you and your CPOP, right so, with who I am and what I do in my executive coaching business, I have seven slots allocated for executive coaching. The clients I work with are typically CEOs of companies that are running entities between 10 and a hundred million. Because I'm in Silicon Valley, that's a great fit for me.

I about I think it was three weeks ago, four weeks ago I closed my eighth slot, so I'm not actually aggressively looking for any more, although you know that's when the right person comes by and says and I'm like for you, yes, of course, right. So so that said my, my CPOP for that is not the one that I'm primarily using, but my CPOP when I was primarily focused on executive coaching and publishing, focused on executive coaching and publishing my CPOP was four words. It was CEOs flying like eagles. So those four words are powerful and very cool. And what makes me different than any other executive coach? What makes me different than anyone else? Right, and although I think I know what it is, it's not always easy for other people in the marketplace.

Stuart: Right.

Mitchell: So when I realized clarity comes first versus when I was really focused on the credibility piece, when I realized clarity comes first, I realized I needed an audience where I could absolutely show an ROI. And it was an audience I was already playing with because I'm part of the Marshall Goldsmith 100 coaches and I get to see how all these coaches operate like behind the scenes. And it popped in my mind. So there's an organization called ICF, the International Coaching Federation. They are the grand organization that gives certification to all these other coaching organizations that are certified authors, not authors. Sorry, are certifying authors, not authors? Sorry, certifying coaches. So the interesting part is they do a biannual survey and in that survey they had specifically said now around the world, they have studies I don't know the numbers in the UK, in the US, what they said is there are over 100,000 executive coaches with an average salary of $50,000. I couldn't get that number out of my head and when I started thinking about what should my CPOP be today, the word that came out of my mouth as the who I was going to serve is not the word that I ever expected to be uttering, because why would I narrow myself, to be just so narrow? The word is coaches. By the way, why would I be so narrow in terms of that? And the answer is well, it's easy to demonstrate an ROI. I'll focus on this vertical first and then move to another vertical, and so my current CPOP is eight words coaches who've created a job, not a business. And as you know, stuart, what we're teaching when we bring people through our clarity session is not only to have that CPOP, but to be able to do the tell me more. So let me spend a minute, or less than a minute. I'll do the tell me more. So what happens? And, by the way, if you're an author, particularly an author who has published a book from 90-minute books, almost by definition, you also have a part of your business. That's coaching. You're either directly a coach or partly your business. The product or service requires some sort of coaching.

What has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. What has happened with coaches is you've been trained a methodology. You've been trained a methodology to specifically transform a company or an individual and move them from A to B, but what you've not been trained is actually how to run a business as an entrepreneur, how to have a continuous set of conversations where you're building referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you referral partners who refer you, how you're continually having your customers refer you, how you basically have a calendar full of people who you're enjoying talking to and many of them turn into clients. We have a done with you program that does that with you. So that's probably about 40, 45 seconds. You got a good feeling of who I am and what I do, because the playground coaches, who've created a job, not a business, is very well articulated yeah when you oh, and by the way, to answer your direct question, I psychologically it took me a long time to go.

Yeah, okay, I'm just gonna say coaches. By the way, the eighth executive coaching client came after I was saying coaches. That didn't stop that person from saying, hey, listen, I'm still interested. So it yeah so, but psychologically I'm like, oh, I'm going to kill my executive coaching business. No, no, it still works yeah.

Stuart: I think as well that's for the people who it doesn't resonate with. So any risk of losing people, the likelihood of those being converting clients, is probably slimmer anyway. There's always this concern about losing a potential client but the reality of that person converting is probably pretty slim because whether or not you have that clarity, all of your actions and everything that you do leads towards a particular direction. Anyway. It's just without having that clarity direction anyway, it's just without having that clarity. It's kind of a shotgun in that general direction rather than a laser focus on a particular target. So this idea that people are going to lose out on this whole potential market, I think the reality of converting those people is pretty slim. And what I like about the c-pop that you've got there coaches who've created a was it a job? Oh?

it's a job job rather than a job rather than a business. I mean this whole, the nuance around that language, or the emotional message that is in the subtext. That's in that message is hey, you're doing all of the work, you're doing all the work anyway, but what you've actually created is something that isn't going to leverage your scale in the way that you want, and the thing to move it from A to B is not going and doing something else. You're doing the right thing, you're just doing it in an ineffective way. So to be able to have that, I think what comes from the additional benefit, that comes from the clarity, is the ability to layer in some of the emotional language or the resonator, the things that are really going to capture the attention. Like we started saying, gets the opportunities to hit the people.

Mitchell: Well, this is really interesting, right? So when I wear that hat not my publisher hat when I wear the hat, I look at the service you have right, and that service, but that price point is different than my service and my price point, and it is clearly something that some of the coaches that I'm working with actually need. So if I am of service to others ie coaches and they need that service, I'm going to bring you into the fold. It just makes obvious sense, right, and there's a couple of things to do. But can I share your CPAP or do you want to share your CPAP? I'll put it in chat, because this is what really resonated with me when you and I were talking, and do you want to say it?

Stuart: Because it's yours, yeah, so we're helping or looking for business owners using. If we edited the podcast, I'd edit myself, tripping over my own c-pop oh no, keep it as it is the authenticity business owners using conversation starting books. It's the the separation between books and people thinking of them in a traditional sense to the conversation starting book. It's the. Yeah, I like it because it shares some passion, it shares an outcome as part of the words.

Mitchell: If you don't mind, I will share your CPOP and tell me more, right? Because then?

Stuart: you have it on replay right.

Mitchell: So one of my superpower steward is when I know somebody's CPOP and it really is there, I could feel their energy. I can do the tell me more, regardless of what it is. In this particular case, I could actually do it with feeling, because I live this one as well. I just never articulated it this way when I was a publisher. It was very obvious. When we came up with this fee, I'm like, oh yeah, that is the right, that is exactly the right thing. But at the moment, that's your CPAP I don't need. That's not for me, right. So typically what happens is you could, if people know what the word CPAP is, you could say what's my CPOP? But maybe somewhere between 50 to 100,000 people know, so not enough. So what often happens is you could say something like clients that are attracted to me or clients I'm attracted to. Your case, it's clients that are attracted to me, business owners, using a conversation starting book. Let me tell you what that means.

A lot of people have been taught and we've grew up thinking we need to create the book, the be all end of all, the book that solves all problems, that instantly I get to appear on the major talk shows and clients will start flocking my way. The truth is, book publishing is democratized and that will not happen. The chances of that happening is like the chances of winning the lotto. So what do you use a book for? You're using a book so that, when you give it to your prospect, knows the word give. When you give it to your prospect, you've started a conversation and that conversation can end with the client actually buying from me. Well, that's what I do. I work with business owners who need another step up, an advantage, to be able to get the people they're talking to to want to buy from them, and we do it in a quick and easy approach.

Stuart: Yeah, and that level of obviously, like you said, the unique ability that you've got to dial in the tell me more the clients, the thing that stops people in their tracks, initially, and then that next level of detail, the language and the cadence and the the resonance that you bring to it is a unique ability that you've got and it's something that a lot of other people, including me, would struggle with. But to be able to go through the process to get it dialed in and then refine it over time, even if the words are right the first time, the delivery is important as well. But that visibility that it brings to what you do in a short period of time, that doesn't sound like an elevator pitch, it's not close, it's share. It's such a unique difference. And again, the reason why I really wanted to share this podcast with people because, as we've got all of the books on the shelves here, I've moved things around the office.

All of these books on the shelves here it's the idea that people can take that asset and then, if it's not created already, have the clarity first, but if it is created and we've helped them a little bit with the clarity, but now they've got a chance to revisit it and bring it into a collected approach to get out there and use it in the real world. So not just build it and they will come. Instead, we've built something. We can refine a message, and now we can get that message out there in lots of different ways, but it has that consistency to it well, so what?

would be the oh sorry I'm sorry, I was going to say, um, what would be the first? We're obviously going to point people towards a place where they can learn more and I want to make sure we definitely get a chance to talk about that because there's a great event coming up that people can learn a lot from. But as people are thinking about this idea now, we've talked some through the book process of dialing in a single target audience. So, at least as far as the book goes, they're pretty attuned. So it's not really a philosophical challenge that they've got, but in terms of refining that message. So, going into the mechanics of it, maybe what are some easy ways that people can do to start thinking about.

Okay, I've got a book that's talking about an individual group of people, a campaign, a target market. I've got the business that I know that I do, and now I hear Mitchell talk about dialing in these words and something called a CPOP. What's the easiest way for them to start taking this and acting on it, doing something with it? Is there a framework for going from accepting the idea to doing a first pass?

Mitchell: you have about four or five questions bundled into that question and and I appreciate that I just want to narrow it down a little bit so I could give you the answer that I think I heard, so so is it they already have a book and they're thinking about their c-pop and what's next? Or help me understand, yeah yeah, sorry.

Stuart: So there's two audiences who are listening. There's the people who have had the idea that a book is a good thing to do but they haven't necessarily done it yet. So for those people they can really go the clarity first route and dial in what their message is, and then a book is and out. The logical acts come further down the track. And there's a second group of people who have written something already. So we've helped them as far as kind of that single target audience goes for the book, but not to the extent of the clarity work that you do. So for both of those. One group has a broad idea and the other has a book already. But I think still from the perspective of dialing in either specifically their CPOP or their clarity message, what's a good way for them to start thinking about the language that goes around it, kind of narrowing it down to eight to 10 words. There's a thought process that goes along with that.

Mitchell: Yeah, got it. Well, I do clarity sessions with people, so that's one of the. You went to that last week. It's a 90 minute session. I guarantee everyone leaves their CPAP. We do have a course right. So we have an hour long asynchronous course. If you just join Credibility Nation, I think you can join it free. It's credibilitynationcom. You join it free for the first month. After that it's $35 a month. You can take the course.

The hard part is that we've been taught all these marketing cookie cutter things we do, and it's hard for us. We've been taught that the first thing out of our mouths need to be the elevator pitch. So think about this. Somebody asks you what you do. Let's be clear, they don't know you yet. They don't give a shit about what you do. What they care about is what can you do for them, what's in for me? We've been taught that when somebody says what do you do, that we talk about us. Well, I mean I do this and I do that, I do this and I do this other thing, and that's not the question they're really asking. So somebody says who are you? What do you do? Anytime you get a chance to pronounce yourself, please throw out the elevator pitch. The elevator pitch is potentially you're telling me more. It's not the first words on your mouth.

When somebody says what do you? Do you as cleanly and as articulate as, with as much clarity as you can articulate, the playground you play in. It's the who and the what. So, in your particular case, business owners, when I answered your tell me more. I was just thinking about what do business owners care about? Right, in your particular case, over a thousand business owners have been able to create a conversation starting book. Now, if you'll notice your CPOP business owners using a conversation starting book, it's a great tool. How much? So? First thing you're doing is you're creating the conversation starting book. Well, what else do you do? And that's what you and I have been talking about on the side, right? So the thing that's fascinating is, once you have clarity, how you get credibility is by how you speak and how you show up online. It's consistent with your clarity. Once you have that, then for those who don't have the book yet, then you go to 90 minutes books and you actually get your book done. Those that have the book you already have an asset that gives you that incremental credibility. So that what comes next is and I really think for those who have been able to have a book, they need to focus on their clarity. They need to have consistent credibility. Then they need to create a client magnet, a product that's in their framework. That's just too easy to say no to, so I'll share. Because I think you're leaning in this direction, I'll share the. This is a framework to think about for everybody and this is what we do with folks. So for those just doing the podcast, step one is getting clarity. 98% of people don't have clarity. It's kind of hard to buy credibility when you don't have clarity, although that's what everyone does. But once you have clarity, then you can. If you deploy clarity properly, you can get consistent credibility. And you do that by having the words coming out of your mouth and your online presence being consistent with your level of clarity. That gives you and those who may work with you confidence.

What comes next? If you know your audience, if you know who you're going to be playing with? You have your CPOP. You need a micro-commitment, so that is something that's typically $500 or less. That is just too easy for them to say no to, so you need to give them that micro-commitment. Now, in your particular case, stuart us playing together that micro commitment doesn't have to be yours. You could join your prospect in a clarity session so that they can get their CPOP. And once they have their CPOP, then they write the book with you. Right, that micro commitment doesn't have to be. We've been taught that we need to own our clients forever and once we get them, we don't let them go. But that's not how humans want to act, that's not how you want to act. So you can use other people's micro-commitment to then.

What you do, stuart, is to become that community superhero. Once people experience you step number three then they're going to want more. And when they want more, how do you make a more robust community where you're really playing inside the playground you play in? So the book is probably just the start of the conversation starters. And what comes after that, what comes before that? How else do you play in a community? And so, for anyone who has a book existing, what's your CPOP? If you now articulate your CPOP now, cpop's, who and what? Who do you serve? One, two or three words and the what is simply the pain point or pleasure point. They experience the whole thing. Less than 10 words, it doesn't matter who you are. Less than 10 words, period, okay. And I have people say, oh, but I do this and it okay, let's let's yeah I've never been able to.

Not be able to give it doesn't mean people accept it. Once you accept the, the place you play in, being able to then fine-tune your credibility, being able to then share the appropriate micro-commitment product, being able then to attract people around you because you're the right people who want to play in the community that you've created, becomes a whole lot easier.

Stuart:And that cycle of moving through each of the stages. I'll list them out on the podcast notes. I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. Them out on the podcast notes, I'll just list them out for people who aren't watching the video. But those depths of battling in the message of giving people an easy way of getting started, of building the community and leading them to the next logical part of the process, if the idea is that people that we can help the best are there and willing to be clients, willing to be five-star prospects, it's just for, for whatever reason, either there's a credibility gap, or there's a lack of understanding, so the clarity is not quite there, or there's a timing issue, so that they would be, but just not in this particular moment, or there's something that's holding them back.

Each of those elements just ticks off one of those points and it's do you remember the game Buckaroo Like when we were kids? It was like a little plastic donkey thing and you'd load it up with different picks and shovels and at some point would be the trigger point where it all flicked off. It's the same as that. You can never know. As a business owner, you can never know whether it's five buckets and three shovels or one bucket and two shovels, it's going to be the tipping point that kind of takes them over the fence into becoming a client. All we can do is be in control of putting more of those elements on the back of the donkey and want to pat myself on the back for some weird analogy that kind of played out. It's the thing, that's the only thing we've got control of. We don't know when someone it's going to be the day for them, we can. When it's going to be the day for them, we can just keep ticking these points. And that's what I really like about the framework, because the book is great at ticking two or three or five of those elements. But the rest of the framework then contributes to all the rest of it.

And the confidence element that is in there between steps two and three. That confidence element both in confidence involves putting the message out there and confidence from the clients that they're in the right place, because I often think that it's people make a pretty quick decision about whether they want to work with you or not. But then it's this confidence balance see-through of okay, yeah, I'm in the right place. Okay, I still think I'm in the right place, I'm getting closer to the checkout, but then anything that knocks their confidence will just reset them back to the beginning. So again, overall, that that circle, that lifestyle, it really brings it together. Make sure we have time to talk about the coaching fest that's coming up, because that the timing of this is is pretty perfect. I think that, as a place that people can go to to get more, more understanding, to get more learning, it's a pretty big event. Talk a little bit about that, because I really want to encourage everyone to jump on board and attend there.

Mitchell: Yeah, we should have said this at the beginning, but maybe you could just pull a clip out. So, given the CPOP I plan, it made a lot of sense to pull some of the best coaching voices in the industry to be able to have a two-day summit. So it's a free event. It's called coachingfestcom. Stuart, put in your affiliate link in the notes right and the opportunity here is some of the best voices who are talking about well, do what you love and the money will follow.

Craft what you do, that you love doing. How do you provide a service in such a way and what do you charge for it? How do you write content for your website? What should it look like? What should be? What should not be? What are content? How do you write good, compelling content? What's your brand? How do you show up as your brand? That and so much more. Now, if you're not officially calling yourself a coach, if you substitute, each one of the people I spoke with gave a half hour interview, and so, as I was thinking about the audience of someone who's created a job, not a business, the types of questions I asked were all focused around the types of things you can do. Now, if I was a marketing guy, I'd tell you to put your business on autopilot. But you don't want to put your business on autopilot. You want to be able to play in the playground where you're enjoying it every day right.

that's what the people I encouraged to to join me for speaking, and the people who the responses they gave were so powerful, even if you just went to one or two sessions. So it's coachingfestcom is a great way to learn and grow, and that's coming up at the end of this month. I'll do two other micro summits, but this particular one is focused on how do you show up in such a way that, particularly as a coach, how do you show up in such a way that is strong, is powerful, is something where people are not just being attracted to you, but you have a referring community who's referring you as well.

Stuart: I think it's such a perfect analogy for what we were talking about before, in the sense of you've picked the target audience. The CPOP is talking to the people who the playground that you want to play in, which is coaches, but the people who can also enjoy being on the swing or enjoy going on the side are all of the other business owners out there who are listening to this today. Everyone who's listening to this has raised their hand or expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can. Expressed an interest in writing a book to build their business, of amplifying their message and engaging more of their clients in a way that really resonates with the service that they can provide. So, just as you said, whether you're a coach or any other type of business owner, substitute out that word for the information that's being shared, and what you'll learn, or have the opportunity to learn, is a huge set of of frameworks and ways of thinking about things that can benefit whatever business that you're in now. You, the we'll put the link in the show notes as, just as we were talking, I'm not sure whether we talked about this before but, as we were talking, I think, if we can, we've got a link that shows people come from this call, so what we'll do as well, we'll be able to see who those people are. I'll reach out to those people afterwards and I'll probably do a call with those guys, just do like a q a call, where we'll talk about what happened in the event in the context of a book and really help people dial in those ideas and then obviously, they've got lots of opportunities to to learn more about you and what you do and follow that path as well, and those the two paths, are so complementary.

I think it really is a a pretty special opportunity and the timing has worked really well that we are a couple of weeks away from the events, so that people can if they've got a book already, they can just find ways to amplify and leverage it in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book but they haven't quite pulled the trigger, then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers in all sorts of new, consistent ways. And if they've been thinking about a book, but they haven't quite pulled the trigger. Then this idea of the credibility and the clarity and some of the other things that the speakers will talk about. They're dialing in this message and then using a book as a tool that again just amplifies and leverages all of the things that they've learned in the summit. Perfect timing, good summary, fantastic. Talking about perfect timing, I realized I didn't even look at the clock when we started recording, but I'm pretty sure we are we went a little bit over.

That's good, all good stuff. As people are watching and listening, I'll make sure that the show notes in either the podcast player or, if people are getting the email, there'll be the links to the show notes there. Any last words or advice for people? I'm sure over the years of experience you've had people who come back years later where they've thought about doing this but they haven't got around to it. The same happens for us. Any words of encouragement to kind of remind people to pull the trigger now and and not let this sit on the back burner, apart from the fact that the event is going to happen at the end of the month, so that ship's going to sail anyway.

Mitchell: In terms of pull the trigger on getting your book or pull the trigger on coming to the event.

Stuart: Well, I guess both, but the event was the main thing. I thought, kind of learning more about what you do and your world, yeah, you know, but yes, they should also write that book.

Mitchell: I think there's. We're all looking for the hidden secret we're all looking for and so many people are selling these pipe dreams of the easy button. And I'm going to say it's extremely simple, it's just not easy. And so by going to coaching fast, you're going to see a lot of people who are very successful. And when you hear fundamentally why they're successful and you start feeling that you see the playgrounds they're playing in, you see what they're doing and how they're doing it successfully and you want that for yourself.

And then, by the way, if you do make a decision to go to 90-minute books, just make sure that Stuart doesn't start step number three until he's worked with you or brought you along to get your CPOP. Because if you have your clarity first and you want to make sure your website, your social presence, is in alignment with it, then you have this asset right and the asset is just complementary to everything else. And, by the way, you can create a summary of your book and that could be your micro-commitment product that you get ready for free even before you write the book. So it's a very interesting opportunity here for you to focus on what's really important who do you serve, what is it and how do they want to be served. How do you reach them in such a way where they're excited about you and how do you get people who go? You know what I need to recommend you to somebody else, because that's exactly something they want to focus on, and focusing on referral partners really powerful.

Stuart: Yeah, such a fantastic opportunity and I really it was such a thin thread that connected us in the first place a month or so ago and really it's a sign that the universe kind of brings people together at the right point. So the fact that we're having this conversation in enough time for people to sign up and join the free coaching fest, I think it really is great. Perfect timing, mitchell. Thank you, buddy, I really appreciate it. Uh, everyone, thanks for listening. I'll make sure that all of the notes are in the, all the links in the show notes, so check those out and then we'll catch everyone next time.

Mitchell: Sounds great. Thanks for having me, Stuart.

Today on the Book More Show, Betsey and I discuss the unexpected longevity business owners can experience through book publishing. We share client success stories of doors kept open years later through meaningful connections fostered. Betsey emphasizes genuinely engaging audiences to elevate your expertise.

Our conversation also reveals the personalized approach we take with each author. While some thrive on meticulous planning, others appreciate creative freedom - our process caters to everyones needs.

We talk about book titles and first impressions. We explore choosing impactful words through various lens and learning from others' input. Betsy draws parallels to historical warning systems and titles' role signaling treasures within.

Overall, our discussion illuminated tangible ways publishing can continuously attract opportunities through meaningful human connections and insight-sharing, not just short-term sales metrics.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/162

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show, stuart Bell. Here and today we are joined by Betsy Vaughan. Betsy, how are you doing.

Betsey: I'm great, stuart. Good to be here with you.

Stuart: I know it's been a little while we used to do every week. But I hope people don't think that you're replaced by other guests, but we just figured collectively.

Betsey: Oh, we've got some really great guests though, so you know I love to hear what the guests are saying and listen to those podcasts, you know more than listening to myself well, definitely about time that we were back on talking about things, because it gives us the opportunity just to tap through a few ideas for people who aren't familiar.

Stuart: You're obviously running the book business for us day-to-day, so dealing with a lot of clients and potential clients, so run through a lot of those common questions. So good to chat about some of that. And then I made a post yesterday on LinkedIn, so I thought we'd give an opportunity to dive into that a little bit deeper as well.

Betsey: Sounds good.

Stuart: Okay, so let's start with clients, I guess quickly.

So one of the things that's been super interesting I might title this episode Lessons Learned from LinkedIn, because we've put a little bit more focus on that recently than perhaps we have done in the past few years.

So one of the things that came up as I've been connecting with past clients, I was a little bit sporadic with making those connections as we were going along. So doing a bit of a job of catching up with people now and the thing that's been a real, I want to say, surprise is not only a surprise but maybe unexpected is the positive feedback. So, as I'm connected with clients who were there from maybe three, four, five years ago, I'm asking them how's it going with the book? And the response has been really quite interesting and there's quite a broad. We're going to have some people as guests in the future. There's quite a broad set of ways that people are using the books and want to remove to a certain degree compared with you. But that feedback if people really talking about how they're using them and the way that they're being received do you hear, hear that?

Betsey: Yeah, you know, that is such a I think the universe has a world, a way of sending those nice comments just when you need them. So if you're having a frustrated day, I'll just let the nice comment from a client who's just finished their book, you know, or you know somebody who shares hey, this is what I'm doing with the book and it's funny. We've talked about this in the past and we can talk about it again. People say, oh, I'm not selling as many books on Amazon as I thought I would, which is exactly what we tell them when they want to put it on Amazon. But wow, you know they're getting a lot of response. People are either downloading it or asking for it and you know, it's turning into real business for these individuals. So you know, yeah, selling your book on Amazon is great and it's, you know, impressive you know.

But really the goal is exactly that to, you know, reach people so they raise their hand so that they do business with you, and that's where the financial value is, and so we're a lot, you know. So that is really, you know, a positive thing. People don't know what they're doing when it comes to writing a book, so they're pleasantly surprised with how simple our process is. We get that a lot Like we're just easy and not to toot our own horn by any means, but we are a small team and we have, you know, so there's a. We're very personal. So, you know, I'm getting text messages and phone calls, you know. So we, I think we bring that advantage, and so I think the client really feels that personal customer service touch, you know. So it's positive to hear. So, you know, people use it in different ways Some free, do free downloads, some give them away at events, some, you know, charge a little bit for them, but the end result seems to be the same are having great success with their books it's that.

Stuart: It's funny, isn't it? The whole kind of bestseller bs type approach that we have? Is that so going into the project thinking that's the only option, that you're going to do it and then sit back and wait for the new york times to bring their award around to your front door, when the there's such a small use case where that's valid, and then it it's such an expensive and time consuming route. For the majority of us who are running real world businesses where we want to get in front of the 100,000 people within 50 miles of where the office is, it's a real different take. I had a comment come back. Someone put a LinkedIn note saying that they wrote their book first and then they'd referred us to a business partner and the comment was along the lines of hey, I'm. I'm more of a implementer type, interested in the process and the details a little bit like my personality, and the process worked very well for me. And then the person that I referred across is a very kind of visionary. If you're familiar with the Eos type language, visionary person rather than an implemented person is a little bit more scattered and a little bit more high level and less in tune with the details, but the process worked equally well for them as well, and they were just as pleased with the outcome. So, yeah, it's, it's nice to see that we're doing something right and it's resonating with the people we can help. Okay, so linkedin.

I put a post out a couple of days ago and titled it words are important, and I think this is worth talking about, because the same applies whether it's an email, which was the example that we'll talk about, or a book title, or a blog post or a letter, any way of communicating with people.

It's this idea that words are important and they actually mean something different. So the email that I received was from the Robert Kennedy campaign, but I'd signed up for something at some point and that's why I'm on the list, so got nothing to do the politics of the candidate I'm actually somewhat of a fan of the candidates, but the email that got sent out said the subject was the subject was bail into the sunset with rfk. Now, given that this person's a third party candidate and the media narrative is that third party candidates have an impossible job every point, now, with the republican candidates all dropping out the Democratic candidates I mean there were very few other candidates anyway and other people apart from the two primary nominees. The narrative is that these people are dropping out. Then an email titled Hill into the Sunset is a little bit of a liminal message that, hey, this is over now I'm off and good luck.

I'll see you later yeah, absolutely the purpose of the purpose of the message was a fundraising thing and it was actually some invitation to go on a sunset cruise, on like a donors type boat ride, whatever, the whatever they call it. As you can tell from the accent, I'm not that up on American politics completely, or not in the history at least. So, the language being important, given that there's an underlying narrative of hey, it's only a matter of time before this person has to drop out because it becomes unviable, it was just such a clear smack in the face of hey, what you actually mean here isn't what you're saying. As an example, it takes two seconds of thinking about it and I don't want to pick on this particular whoever wrote this email because, hey, I've sent out a whole load of stuff and looked back at it later and realized it wasn't quite what I meant. But hopefully this is an example for everyone to think about the words that they say.

Particularly obviously we're talking about book titles or subheadings, which is the thing in front of people as you present your book out there. But the Sailing to the Sunset with RFK has a very different vibe to the message. That is Setting Sail with RFK. I mean even changing those words setting sail has such a positive connotation to it. Absolutely, it opens up possibilities and potential setting sail to new horizons, which actually is also 100% on brand with the candidate. I mean, that's what he's trying to be there as the difference maker between the incumbent systems. So I thought it was worth just diving into a little bit and this idea of of wording important and they mean something and it's worth taking two seconds to put it to one side and come back and look at it again. Right, in terms of people that you're talking to and titles that people come up with, do you hear any? Is there any like common thread of people making title mistakes or things that they want to do that perhaps we advise against?

Betsey: you know, I think people that everybody knows their content, like they know truly what they want to put in the book and they have all that like in their mind. But the title is something that people really maybe not the title so much, but the subtitle. You know that I tend we tend to struggle with a little bit and it's sometimes it's it can be very. You just put a book up that says focus, focus. What does that mean? You know? I mean there's nothing. So you need, you know, some sort of, you know some sort of subtitle that says what this book is actually about, because the reality of it you're going to take, you know, I'm not interested in that, I don't know what it's about. You know, whereas saying focused, how to you know, focus your dollars so you have a great retirement, that's a bad example, but whatever, you know like saying just knowing what, that's a bad example.

But whatever you know, like saying just knowing what, okay, great, this tells me something. So I think we struggle a little bit with that and some people will tend to question a lot and sometimes some things don't make sense and you know we have to sort of I tend to pull, you know, ask your opinion, dean's opinion. Nobody else really wants to. They're like just doing their job so they don't get excited about it. Like you know wants to.

Stuart: They're like just doing their job, so they don't get excited about it like you know, like I would sometimes.

Betsey: You know, yeah, exactly god, when our designer he does, and he always. We have side conversations a lot you know about. I really don't think this would be a better subtitle. So we do that you know a lot and we'll kind of what's interesting?

Stuart: what's interesting about god's take on it is because he's coming from a design perspective. He's got such a narrow focus on just the cover so it doesn't have the context of the rest of the book. He hasn't worked through the outline. He hasn't, isn't at the front cover stage, at least isn't looking at the call to action. It's more hey, the only information I've got is what's presented here. So it's a really interesting take because from a receiver's point of view, a potential customer that's on linkedin and sees an ad for their book, scroll by. That's all they've got as well. So goblin's, almost the canary in the coal mine, if I'm not sure whether that does that same translate from uk to american I don't think so.

Betsey: Canary in the coal mine no.

Stuart: So they say I wonder if how many people listening, whether it means anything. So canary in the coal mine is a saying, for it's an early warning, like it's an indicator of something might be wrong and it comes. This is going to be one of those historic things that I used to question in 2024. Is that really what happens? So canaries, like like the little birds, canaries used to be taken live down coal mines because they were very susceptible to methane gas. So if you were down the mine with your canary and your canary died, that was a sign that you needed to get out there. So yeah, canary in the coal mine it's a thing, for it's an early warning that's great.

Betsey: Now see, I mean I should. I have coal mining family, like my mom's, west virginia. Her family's all mad.

Stuart: Okay, yeah, maybe something that you know she made, yeah ask him and then report back on the next podcast and we'll see where other people know.

Betsey: Yeah, like god he doesn't, unless he has more you know, unless for some reason he happens to get on a call. Sometimes he it really is kind of like a crapshoot, if you will you know with what he's doing, especially when you have such a vague title or subtype, particular title yeah yeah.

Stuart: So I think, tying that back to the job of work that we're trying to do, it is those one word titles became very kind of a couple of years ago for bestseller those types of books, and I think in that context, so if you've got, if you've got a book like clarity game, like he was, Jamie.

Smart. Yeah, I'm thinking of Clarity, the book that we wrote. He was the okay. This turned into a terrible example, the best-selling book there's something like Clarity, by someone who I can't quite remember, but it was a bestseller a couple of years ago.

That title. There's a lot of marketing effort put behind the fact that that title resonates. So it's a name it and claim it type title because the person's name is on the tip of my brain but it's fallen the wrong way, not out of my mouth anyway. That title has got a lot of marketing push behind the fact that it gets traction and people know what it means. It's like a company name. If you called your company google now it makes perfect sense, but for many years and any dollars that doesn't make any sense. And if you had a shop front that was just called Google, as people drive past they're not exactly going to get a lot of insights into what you do. So having that explicit, explicit does what it says on the tin type title is just way more effective as we're working with people, to start conversations with real clients.

The subheading actually. If people don't have a copy, they should get a copy of the book. Blueprint scorecard. I'll stick a link for it in the podcast notes. But the title that stops people in the track and makes people say I want that is one of the key, one of the eight building blocks we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading something that builds on the message of the key one of the eight building blocks that we talk about. And then the amplifying subheading, something that builds on the message of the title and amplifies it, not adds confusion by bringing in a relevant subject, irrelevant talking points or isn't. We're not trying to keyword stuff all of the different possible terms that you can just throw into a subheading rather than a title. Those two things it really does act like the headline and the subheading rather than a title. Those two things. It really does act like the headline and the subheading on a, on an ad, and that's a pretty clear way of thinking about it, this idea of the language being clear.

I think the other element that it triggers or touches upon is context. So, just as we were talking about, a bestseller type traditional book has a lot of advertising dollars behind it in order for it to be clear. It's being sold from bookshop bookstore shelves. So the ability for someone to go in and actively seek that book. If it had a very long title, there might be more cases where someone doesn't find what they're looking for because it's not as easy to remember. If someone's talking about it to a friend, then a short, one word title which is named and has a lot of advertising dollars behind it might resonate. It's sticking people's minds more than if there was a longer title.

But the context in which we're using books and most people listening are going to use books is it's in an ad on LinkedIn or Facebook. We're trying to stop people in their day-to-day activity and make them say I want that and hold their hand and raise their hand. Rather, it might be at a conference where you're talking about a particular subject and you're giving a copy to people. It might be as people walk in through the door. They're coming to ask you about a certain framework or methodology or service that you provide and you give them a copy of the book as a amplifying part of the closing process.

But again, that reinforces the, the problem statement, the issue that they came in with. Or you might be using it as referrals and asking existing clients if they hear of anyone talking about a similar problem. Let me know and I'll give you the copy of the book to help your friend or family member. All of those scenarios. You're being responsible for initiating that conversation with the other person. They're not going out and looking for it it so I think that's another key difference between the context and the way in which traditional books are discovered. This is the way conversation starting books are discovered. It's much more on a path that we control and we initiate, as opposed to something where we're hoping that someone will remember the title so that when they're in a bookstore or when they're on amazon, they'll have enough muscle memory to key in the things that we hope that they'll find oh, yeah, very good it's um well it was just real fast.

Betsey: This popped up in my head. Um, just I was talking to dean and he asked me if we'd heard about. We had a titles workshop recently and this gentleman has written a book about mold specific black mold, you know, in homes and businesses and stuff and his title is mold doesn't have to be a scary subject. And he said do you think I need to change my title? And I said absolutely not. Like it's exact. I mean that is exactly what you want people to know. It's exactly. I mean I've read the content. That's exactly what the content is. This is perfect. Like do not second guess, you know your title. So he just happened to pop up and it triggered my memory to think about him saying that I mean it says everything plain and simple, you know.

Stuart: It doesn't have to put a picture of.

Betsey: Black Malt in front of his book or anything you know.

Stuart: I mold in front of his book or anything. You know I mean words are enough. You know we were doing some ad testing on a call in the. In this thursday this week I was on a call where we were running through some ad tests and there's an image that goes along with every ad. So there was a subset of those ads that were the disturbing looking images and we were trying to. The copy was the same on all of them so we were seeing the response rate between, kind of like, friendly images and disturbing images. The disturbing images were slightly higher than the friendly images, which is interesting.

It's always interesting and it goes to show that right and it goes to show the your own personal bias against things. Just let the data tell you what the result is. You shouldn't go in with too much of a. You've got to go in with a wreck and an opinion to begin with, but let the real world feedback steer you in the right direction. I'm always resistant I think I'm always resistant to those types of images because it reminds me of those crappy adwords, ads or ad network ads you see on the bottom of some sites that have just got the worst looking pictures and seems to be like the real quick bait end of the market. But yeah, the I mean the numbers are the numbers I was going to say on that, that title and taking that as an example.

There's no ambiguity about what the book's about. The book's going to be used in a context in which it's being sent or placed in front of people who have to deal with mold. So it's not like the author's going on on a weekend news show and trying to introduce the idea that mold might be an issue to people. It's not. No one's ever heard of it before. So you're trying to enlighten people as to what it is. People know what it is, most people are scared. They're concerned that it's going to be either kill them or be very expensive. So having the book that starts to bridge that gap to this is a manageable, actionable thing that you can do. Here's a copy of the book and, by the way, whenever you're ready, I'm here to help you. That's exactly what we're trying to achieve with the project here 100, yeah, right on track, yeah, okay.

Well, we are time crunched.

Today I need to get to another meeting, but I really want to put put this out there, because that email that fail into the sunset example of someone well-meaning but just slightly yeah, exactly just slightly missing the mark and I think I'd close that linkedin post and I'll close here with a similar thing. Time is your friend in this regard. So writing something first but then being able to put it down for an hour a day a week and then come back to it and revisit it which is part of our process as well, the book writing process we give everyone the opportunity to get their first version of it and then make whatever changes they want to it. That's always included, but in terms, your friend, in that when you come back to it with a fresh set of eyes, they're not going to be as fresh as godwin's only seeing it from that isolated perspective. But still, you'll quite often catch things where you don't quite mean what you've written and that opportunity just to tweak it and improve it a little bit really can be a difference maker.

So that's true all righty well, thank you for your time. I am going to dive out to this next call. I'll leave a link to the book blueprint scorecards in the notes here, so if you don't have a copy of it yet, it's a free download. So go and grab a copy. And then the first um. The second and third chapter is really talking about this idea of a title that that gets people to say I want that, and a subheading that amplifies it and compels them to move forward. So definitely worth worth reading and getting some more pointers on tools and subtitles very good cool.

Thank you, Betsey, thanks everyone for listening and we will catch you in the next one be good, take care.

Today on the Book More show, we're talking with Chuck DeLadurantey, financial advisor, private family banking expert based in South Texas, and author of Protect Your Money Now.

His business is not unique; other people are doing similar work, but his approach and work style are unique to him.

We spoke about the opportunity to differentiate yourself in a crowded market, and Chuck shared his focus on strategies for building generational wealth, debt elimination, and retirement planning.

Chuck also stresses the importance of truly understanding what clients want and need and building trust through real conversations—conversations that start with his book.

He has some great insights into how writing books and using social media can help you connect with people while amplifying your expertise.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

LINKS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/161

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

EPISODE CHAPTERS

(0:00:01) - Unique Approach to Private Family Banking

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Charles. I was just reading the background. I know you as Chuck Chuck.

Chuck: Yes, chuck is great. Yeah, yeah, chuck works.

Stuart: It's one of those things that I was looking at the screen, the background, I kind of saw the word and read the word instead of the word that was in my head, which is always a problem on the podcast.

We know each other from a little bit from before you started writing a book. We had a couple of conversations before then, obviously, we were able to help you go through the process and now that's wrapping up. What I really thought would be a great opportunity would be to share your story with people so kind of the business that you're in. It's not a unique business in the sense of there are other people doing similar things, but I think your approach is pretty unique. So I think that's going to be quite interesting, both for the listeners and also if not specifically about the subject more about them as business owners thinking about their unique approach, because I think oftentimes we tend to think of things that have always been talked about in the past or other people are talking about this. So what do I have to say? That's unique and your perspective is pretty unique. So, with that being said, when we start off with the background and share with everyone kind of who you are and the business that you're in, Okay, great, well, thanks.

Chuck: I'm saying hello from sunny South Texas post Christmas 2023, loving it, having some time off and spending time with family, and we spend time with family. We get thinking about you know what's the future look like. So a lot of what I do with people is try to you know, if you can't describe your future self, you won't have very do a very good job of goal setting. Whether that be financially, whether it be you know what you're doing for a living, and so I think that's the major you know framework is sort of that vision of who you want to become, or what you want to become as a family or in your career or whatever, and so I particularly drill down on the financial part of it. But of course, that also involves for many career or business development, and so we talked to.

I do some coaching with small business owners and then I show them how to use the tools and techniques we do on the private banking side. But just a little bit of quick history. So I'm a little bit further down the road of life. I'm what would be traditionally known as retirement age, but that ain't going to happen.

Not only just financially. I like a nice lifestyle, so to do that, you have to have cash flowing assets, you have to have something going on. I have a number of businesses that keep me busy at the level that I want to be, but I didn't get here overnight and so to tell you that I knew how all this was going to map out no, I didn't know it was going to turn out this way. The Lord has opened a lot of doors and provided provision and zeal for new things for me personally. So I think, no matter what you do, no matter what business you're in, you've really got to take a self assessment first.

You know who am I, what are my skills and gifts, what makes me tick, and you know, I think a lot of people get burned out of that. I want to be passionate about what I do. You know you can be passionate about most anything if you can get the focus around it and you start to align your God given gifts, your talents, from education or from skill building or whatever. I mean. A good, excited plumber would be a great thing to have, right.

When the guy comes to your house, if he's dressed up in a three piece suit and he's got a very clean wrench in his hand, you might look at him and say I don't know if this guy's quite aligning himself with his trade, but a very courteous guy that maybe protects your wife's carpet from dirt and is well cleaned and has a uniform with a name on it.

You know that might be a good idea for the plumber coming to your house. The same thing with anything. That's how we present, it's how we come at it. The book I wrote was a real supplement to the work that I'd already been doing and I was starting marketing back to sort of the back to your business owner and your book writer focus for the theme of the podcast. You know, what I found is that I needed to market to a slimmer, more focused market channel. Right, I needed to very identify for the lack of a better term my avatar, right, who was I really trying to get to? And once I did that, my revenue went up 5x immediately in the first year and the book was just a way to introduce people. I give it away a lot. I have a PDF copy I give away and it sets the context, because what I do with private family banking it's not an open and shut, you know. It's a customized fit for every person and the ideas are counterintuitive, they don't just jump off the page.

So, back to you, stuart. I hope that was a good entree for where we wanted to go today.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely. I think it sets that scene, the idea of being specific in the target market so that you know who you're talking to and can talk to them in a way that kind of aligns and uses the right examples and talks about the right, comes at it from the right positioning, both in terms of where they want to go and where they are in their journey currently. So I think the idea of picking that single target market although it seems like scarcity and you're excluding some people to begin with, if you think about it from a campaign perspective, from a marketing campaign perspective, it's not the return of the way other people if they knock on the door or other people who identify themselves as interested, but in terms of you having 100 units of energy a month to do outreach to a specific group. Tailoring that 100 units of energy is far more effective than a scattergun approach of trying to be everything to everyone.

Absolutely Go ahead I was just going to say. You mentioned that the ideas of private family banking is perhaps something that people have heard of, but the customized solutions for each person are very individualized and I think that's similar. It's a similar conversation that we have with people as they think about writing a book for their audience. Well, my solutions it's not one size fits all thing. Every person is different, but at some level there is a commonality. So how did you go about picking the right elements to kind of do that initial engagement with people? Obviously, the end solution is individual, but there is that commonality at an information level.

Chuck: You know it's very interesting. That's a great question. I would parallel or make an analogy of this too. I used to own a VRBO property vacation rental by owner back in the day with before VRBO and all the internet and Airbnb's are what they are today. This is 20, some years ago and so I did a lot of marketing, and what happened in that scenario I will align to what I'm doing today. With private family banking, we hit the market just right post 9 11. The people wanted to rally as families, and so I had a very large place on a river. It was a beautiful spot, waterfall out front and the park for the kids next door was idealic. And but what hit? That place was so large that an individual couple, or maybe a couple with one or two children, probably wouldn't rent it. So we needed big groups. So what? We found? That multi families would come and rent our place for a week. They'd get away. It was off the grid, if you will kind of speak, off the internet.

I mean, we had power, but you know, there was internet was terrible, which people loved because they wanted to detach, you know. So I aligned what I'm doing with private family banking with. The time has come now, post COVID, the money situation, the banking failures, the economy, you know, do I do Bitcoin? Do I do this? What do I do with my cash? Is the dollar going to be digitized? Is a dollar going to fall as the reserve currency of the world? On and on.

So so I didn't strike out to drum up more fear, but I knew fear is, you know, you know, the fear of failure or the hope of gain, or to the motivating factors for anything in life. And people are fearful, they're concerned, they're a bit confused, and so I think what I brought to it is a discussion about hey, let's talk about you and your family. So I do have clients ranging from 18 years old all the way to 75, but the core group of my clients are probably young couples with a couple of children on up, from maybe early the late 20s to maybe mid 40s. That's clear, the prime area. And these are people that are thinking family, they're thinking multi generational how do I pass wealth on? How am I going to set my children up for success? So it just really hit a chord and I came out with that starting last April.

So it's been less than a year to where I started to really market and I wrote the book and got it published I think in May, probably June and it's just been a great supplement to push in the message of multi generational thinking and saving instead of spending and going into more and more consumer debt. And we address those things to. We help people get out of debt faster. So I kind of use the debt snowball technique a little variation on it, though a more powerful one, I would say and we also meet people right where they are. They're getting ready for retirement or they're concerned about losing, because you figure out the math is kind of easy when you think about it If you have a 401k. By the way, the government created a tax problem and then they created the solution with tax qualified plans, right.

So, really kind of interesting the way that works. But nonetheless, when you put money in a tax protector, tax deferred plan, eventually you're going to pay the piper. Plus, you're subjecting that money to market volatility and we think the market's probably going to take a big turn here, maybe depending on the election. Probably as well either way, maybe, and not to speak politics, but it certainly is a fact in the marketplace. But what what we say is that let's get you some protection, let's get you a guaranteed win, a base platform where you always win and you're in control of your cash and you get some bonuses like dividends and things like that, and you get the month we call the money multiplier effect, so that that if in a 401k that volatility, if you lose 40%, which a lot of people did during COVID or the 08 crash, it takes 100% improvement to get that bet back to zero.

And you know you're not going to get a 10 or 15% return year after year in the stock market, unless you're an insider and you're, you know, hoping not to go to jail, I guess.

Stuart: But so that's the interesting point that bridge from Pete things that people know and have some degree of understanding and comfort around. A lot of people are probably well aware of the idea of getting out of consumer debt and how expensive that is. They might be aware of the snowball ideas. They might be aware of their various retirement opportunities. So bridging that into the concern that people have got around and increasing awareness of things aren't the same anymore that they were right, it's the great way of starting that conversation into something that's ultimately somewhat more complicated or requires some support, like private family banking, but yeah.

Chuck: I would say back to your other right before. The other question that you asked is what it is is about starting a conversation. If I could have any pointers to the people in your crowd, if you will, it's quit, quit marketing and start a conversation and make an offering. You know it sales comes before market marketing. If you don't make an offer of to somebody, you're not giving them any, you're just giving them more noise, right? People have so much stuff coming at them and so my target market. I was able, through just a situation of how I knew these people and how to market to them through other channels or sell to them. I put forth a proposition. In my ads and my email boxes, my calendar gets booked out. I mean I have 20 to 25 appointments. I have a great close rate, even the person that's in the most difficult situation. I'd write an article every week or more. I get it out on Instagram and you, my daughter, does on my social media. Thank God, because I have no clue how to do that.

But if you can get somebody to help you with social media, you write the content. But don't worry about knowing it all. Don't try to be all things to all people. I guess that's a key message.

Stuart: It's starting the conversation. We refer to the book as conversational starting books. It sounds like a difference from traditional books and I talk a lot about the product of the book not being a book sale. But the product is a conversation with someone who's likely to become a client. Because for all of us listening here, that's the real difference maker. We're not authors, we're not going to make a, we're not even really looking for speaking careers. For the most part it's introducing the idea to someone who's likely to most likely to become a client at some point further down the track. So that conversation starting element is something that we hammer home with people all the time.

Chuck: Well, you know, and me, like many other people have always talked about writing a book, right?

Stuart: And even.

Chuck: I mean, I did my doctoral work. I got all but dissertation. So I'm a doctor, abd all but dissertation. And the reason is you get stuck, you get writer's cramp, you can't think of something you're excited enough about to write a book on, and so for me, this book was not only very natural, but your process was so facilitated that you know and I think you talk about it in that other podcast how do you keep it going? How do you set achievable goals? Well, you know what? Don't? You have to do that with your business. So just apply that good discipline and it's just another piece of your work.

But I can't say enough about and I mean people. Just, it is a credibility thing. I mean not to say your book should be well written, I think it should. You know, if you're using it to educate people on what you're offering, you have to do the due diligence, you have to do the hard work. But getting it out there is so key, and getting it in people's hands that I find that plus, I put a lot of my story about my life in there and again.

I'm in the classical above retirement age bracket, but I'm not a classical common kind of guy. I'm still popping it out and I'm more energized now.

I just turned 70. I am more energized now than I was 10 years ago and it's because of focus, it's because being excited and helping people it's a ministry, you know. It's about reaching the core of somebody and even if you're only making a small profit, it's so exciting to know that you help somebody. I think if you do that and you get away from your you know beeline to, you know wanting the three vacations to Aruba, and just do the work, you know, maybe those vacations will come, maybe they won't, but you're going to get more out of your life and you're. You won't have to sell your enthusiasm, your love for people and the desire to close a gap. I mean, I guess that's the way I'm made. I was a consultant for 20 years, freelancing and did a lot of work with clients, ceos all over the country in healthcare space, but I never went in with a brochure. I never went in. I always looked at those people and got them to tell me what they were struggling with.

You know the old, find the pain and then scratch the itch or whatever you know, and so you giving a monogam of information is really not very effective. That's back to the conversation.

Stuart: Yeah, and the passion that you bring to it is the same whether we start off with a plumber example, or whether you're a vet. My brother's getting married in January. His wife is a surgical vet. He's a yacht broker. I can talk all day long about creating books. My wife's a kindergarten teacher. She can talk all day long about early childhood education and the approach that Waldorf takes, the schools that she works in. All of us are in business for ourselves. We specifically don't have traditional jobs because we are passionate about our subject and if we can share that one piece of information that really helps someone, whether or not we get paid for it, I think the majority of us are feeling good because we're, just as you say, out there helping people, and a book is a great way of starting that conversation in a non-threatening way, with a very clear call to action, and lead to an easy next step.

Chuck: I think another thing, stuart too, and you know this the real power in that conversational and relationship building. Right, you're building a relationship, you're trying to build trust early on. Without trust, you really got nothing. One guy told me there's three things. They want to trust you, they want to know that you're an expert and they want to know you know what if you're bringing in another company, like I do, to actually do the product, they want to trust that company. So all of those are trust related. But that doesn't happen.

So when you start talking to people, I think what you have to do is not only set them at ease, but use the power of questions and that could be my next book. You know I read a book years ago when I was consulting, called the Question Behind the Question. I don't even remember who the author was, but was a powerful idea that you know you ask a question, you need to think through what is behind your question, because you're trying to get to something, and when people start asking you questions, you also think that too. But just the power of asking a person to articulate you know where are you today. You know what are your hopes and dreams. You know what if you were to solve one or two problems, what would those look like? What would those be? Tell me a little bit about you Now. If you go too fast and you go too close, you go too deep, people are going to back off and you know just human nature, right, they're not going to.

You know you can't get into the deep, dark secrets of people's lives overnight, but when you're dealing with their finances that's a touchy area to begin with, and so you got to build that relationship through conversation.

Stuart: And, like you say, it's positioning it at the right level at the right time, understanding where you use in the book, in the funnel, what the call to action is the next step, what I sometimes refer to it, as I'm sure I heard this from someone else but relationship capital, like you can't ask, you need to ask the questions that are balanced against the level of relationship that you've got. I think particularly that, as you said, in your industry, where there is a lot of baggage and sensitivity around finances anyway, going in too hard, too deep is either going to make people feel uncomfortable or threatened or they've done something wrong. So if you can keep that conversation going until they're at this point of no like entrusting you enough to be able to dive into those deeper parts, it really is a good thing and it's interesting.

Chuck: I've had clients, you know, again, some of it seems to be magical. I mean, you never know right, but you get a client coming in and within 10 minutes they're telling you their life story. The best thing you can do is shut up and listen. And you know, give some body language. I used to zoom a lot. Zoom is so powerful, or whatever mechanism. You know video conferencing, but you know, if somebody to turn over $150,000 to you based on two meetings on zoom man, that's a pretty powerful message that you've done a good job of gaining their trust and explaining the mechanism and then showing them the pathway.

And I get that. You know, at least once a month, a contract, if you will, an arrangement at that level or more, and so it is. It's very, very important and again, I try to you know another thing is language right, not the language of finance? If I tell you, well, we're going to arbitrage this rate, and then you know the net present value of futuristic, you know yada, yada, yada. Well, you've lost them on square one and sometimes many of us are too close to our own work to understand and the decoding that's necessary. So back to you.

Stuart: That's such a great point and it comes back to this conversational start and not making an assumption that either people know everything that we could possibly tell them or just because they've heard it before, that it's actually sunk in and it makes a difference.

I was saying to someone a couple of weeks ago on a show that in my previous corporate life I used to work for the Financial Services Authority in the UK. So we would go out I was on the IT side, not on the regulation side but we would go out and do presentations in London to workplace. They was like employee education side of things and around finance, particularly although someone pointed out that doctors are the same around finance, particularly that use of like in-house language and just thrown out there because we have to deal with it day to day, we just don't even think about it, but the people receiving that the words mean nothing. So if you can bring people along on the journey using language that is familiar and doesn't sound daunting or scary, all make them feel like they're, that they're well stupid, for one of a better word for not understanding it, which is so far from the truth. Yeah, I really think it's about building that rapport and starting a conversation in a way that helps them.

One point I want to say. I asked you talk about running ads and making sure that you specifically ask the ask for a next step. Those ads that then lead to appointments, are they social media channels or are they print channels? Are they more asking people to schedule a meeting or are they related to the book?

Chuck: Yeah, so what I do? I run ads on very specific podcasts and YouTube channels. I've done my social media is just reels and stuff that go out on Instagram and I get some draw. I've done other podcasts like this. I did one with iHeart Radio that gets me some traction, that's broadcast nationally and all of those again, for the small entrepreneur they're basically quote unquote free. I mean, it's just your time. People are. People don't realize how much you and other people like me that run a podcast are looking for content, right, they're screaming for content. So they're not going to charge you. Maybe some will, but my ads are running. Their paid ads are running on YouTube and very specific podcast and address that audience that I'm targeting and I get mostly. I get now about 20% will book directly to my calendar off the ad, which is powerful.

Stuart: Right.

Chuck: So what I do I grab that calendar invite and immediately send them a read ahead because I've got to have the read ahead so that we get a jumpstart on that zoom call. So they had the schedule is to schedule a zoom call. I send them a read ahead. If they send me an email, in my ads I have a link to a free book. They'll go out. Sometimes they get the book. Sometimes they just go out and look at my website. But I'll know they've been in there and I get their email. I've got mechanisms in place to get their email. Then I'll get back to them and about 30 or 30 or 40% of those will book a meeting. And then I've got people that will call me. So I put my phone number out there a number of times.

One of my great, most opportunistic opportunities opportunistic opportunities, one of my most a huge deal that I have in the work right now came from a phone call a guy gave me when I was on holiday in northern Maine, barely in cell phone range, and this guy calls me and we're still having a dialogue. It's too much to go into right now and I got an NDA so I can't say too much, but it's a big deal and that came from one ad from one place and one phone call. And it's just you definitely never know, you know. And then I get people who are just struggling and you know, guy with three kids and he's 32 and he doesn't have any money and but yet, you know, you rang up all this credit card that we can help them to. So I have a very wide range.

I take all comers. I don't. I'm not, you know, I trust that this will all work out. I have you know volume is helpful and the more I calls I take the more volume. So back to your question. I get people. The offer is, you know, book a call or call me. I give them the ad copy I wrote and it's rich with language that hits people where they are and it I seem to get. That gets me lots of traction. So, but I'm in about four or five podcasts and a YouTube channel.

Yeah, my ad spend is ranges per month. You know so many dollars a month.

Stuart: Yeah, and when you said in that answer the fact that you never know the opportunities to be out there across multiple channels and even if you're hitting the same people at a different on a different day, there's that saying you never stand in the same river twice. It's really the fact of presenting multiple opportunities to be out there, in the understanding that you can never know exactly which day is going to be right for the person listening. But if you're there on the day that is right for them, then that's where the opportunity is to take it to the next step. Absolutely the. I've got a copy of the book title up here.

Chuck: Yeah, there you go, protect your money now. Yeah.

Stuart: And I love the hat as well. So keep on with the branding. That's right. You mentioned when we were talking about the audience that you were looking to dial in. If you had to pick that single target audience, and it's the people who have got some awareness that they need to do something. They might not know what they need to do, but there's all of these messages that they get from out there, so they're subheading in the book talks about protecting from upcoming financial financial meltdowns or banking meltdowns. The audience who comes to you how educated are they in terms of the solutions versus how interested are they in the problems? They've got an awareness that they need to do something different. Great question.

Chuck: They come to me knowing more about the problem than they do. My solution, our solution, and that's rightly so, because we're not mainstream or counter cultural, counterintuitive. But they grab on quickly because I have a method. I use physical movements, I have some graphics that I'll throw I just share a lot of screen but I don't throw a lot of numbers and they got a concept. But they come knowing that what they've done hasn't worked.

Number two, they know that if they got their money tied up in a 401k or a 403b or an IRA or even a Roth, they're going to pay taxes on the gains eventually All of our in our system. If you go by our rules, if you will how we train you, you're going to grow this tax free for the rest of your life. That's a huge advantage. People don't understand the decimating character of taxation on wealth, and so you could pass this along tax free to your heirs as well, but so they come knowing what didn't work, and so they're really already piqued to learn something new, and so that's why I use a very educational step by step process.

Stuart: I think that's a key point for anyone listening as well this idea that people have some understanding of some solutions, but not the full picture and almost certainly not specifically the way that you do it, but they've got quite a wide. It's the problems out there that are triggering them into taking some step, because the inertia that everyone's got of not making a change or just letting time go by, that's a powerful thing to overcome. So I think starting that conversation by highlighting what the problems are in presenting the idea of the solution really helps start that conversation and move it forwards.

Chuck: Right, and I think that two things happen in most of the people I get not only do they understand what they weren't doing, or what they didn't work is really more precisely it, but they're hesitant to try something new and they don't want to get desperate. The other people have already gone the full route of getting desperate and lost more money. And so those are the ones that say please help me.

You know because, they're just fed up because people. What happens is people feel they're getting taken advantage of or they're fear of missing out, fomo or whatever they do. Or my neighbor did this, or this guy told me that at the end of the day it doesn't work out for them. They're looking for sanity. They're looking for something structured and something that's more certain certainty. You know, a lack of uncertainty. You'll never close a sale when you have lack of uncertainty. That's a key, another key driver. You've got to get certainty in that person's mind, because that's what they're trying to overcome. They're so uncertain because they've been ripped off through. You know if you will not rip it off, but certainly affected by the market swings.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah. And once that fear comes in, like I said, the option of doing nothing is the easier option for most people. No one gets. No one gets sacked for buying IBM or whatever that ad used to be. No one gets. It's never their fault if they do nothing and the circumstances change around them. But also they're not going to get the benefits of that if you just sit there and hope that something's going to change.

Chuck: Absolutely.

Stuart: The term always goes quick on these shows. I want to make sure that we give people a chance to follow up and find out more about you and the book and what you're doing. So if people are watching along on video, there's your background is fantastic because it's got the contact details straight away. But for those listening, where's a good place to follow up and find out more about you?

Chuck: Yeah, the best thing to do is send me an email. Chuckchuk at private family, chuck at private family banking dot com. That'll get me an email. Send me an email and then I'll send you a calendar invite. I'll send you a free ebook to read and some other resources. I've got a free e course that I just finished. It's brief, about 20 minutes, but it'll really take everything we talked about briefly today and I didn't get dived down and obviously into the detail. I know that's not necessarily the purpose of our podcast, but I love it. I love what we talked about today and I believe in it. I mean, I can tell you getting the book done was a big deal emotionally for me, because it took one of those burdens off right, and so do the book man, do the book.

Stuart: And now that you've got it, it almost frees up that brain space to look for all those opportunities to use it. Often say that once that asset is created the use cases even if you go into the project with some good ideas, the use cases down the track is just an idea of what you can do and so on the track, it's just an opportunity. It's something else to advance the conversation and reinforce the authority time after time whenever the opportunity arises. But that only comes from having it complete.

Chuck: Absolutely.

Stuart: One quick one just before we wrap up. I don't want to go off on another tangent, but couldn't help but ask. You mentioned the online course, the email course that's just finished. Is that related to the book or is that on a complimentary subject?

Chuck: It's on this subject, how to. It's a how to what this is and then how it works. Right, and that's private family banking yeah.

Stuart: That's such a fantastic opportunity to advance that conversation even further. So, from the top of the funnel, people have a problem. Here's a broad manifesto of a solution down to okay, here's some practical steps you can take if you're not quite ready to jump on a call yet. Yeah, fantastic, yeah, perfect. Well, again, thanks for your time, and particularly thanks for your time in between Christmas and New Year. Here will release this in a couple of weeks or just be into the new year. So, as anyone's kind of recovering from Christmas and thinking about doing something about their finances as January gets going, this hopefully will hit at the right time for them. And the email address the way to get in touch with you will make sure that it's in the show notes. So if people are watching on the website or on a podcast player, then I can send you a link to.

Chuck: on my calendar, I can send you a link or, if you want, to put that in a show notes to oh perfect, yeah, we'll do that.

Stuart: Yeah, make it even easier for people. So anyone who's listened to this and is interested in find out more, just check out the show notes and we'll put a link straight to Chuck's calendar and that.

Chuck: Excellent.

Stuart: Fantastic, Chuck. Thank you so much. Looking forward to checking in with you again in 2024. See how things are going.

Chuck: Thank you, my friend. It's been a blessing to get to know you and your team, and they've been excellent, always on top of things, so I can't give you enough accolades there. It's been great.

Stuart: Fantastic. Appreciate it Always good to hear good stories like that. Thanks for listening as well. He's wishing you a great new year or hope you had a great new year when this goes live and we will catch you all in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, I'm talking with Grant Gooding of Proof Positioning about the secrets of market research for small businesses.

Starting his career in mergers and acquisitions, Grant was a customer of market research provided by some large organizations. Realizing they were great at providing data but not insights into what the data practically meant, Grant started Proof to bridge that gap and provide actionable market-driven intelligence.

We focused our conversation on how market research can help small and medium-sized companies determine what questions matter when growing their business.

Having personally had preconceived ideas that market research was only an option for big companies with significant budgets, it was revealing to see just how accessible it is and how Proof's methodology marries with our approach to creating books.

Both aim to answer potential clients' most pressing questions and start a conversation.

There are a lot of valuable ideas here as you look to use a book to build your business.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

LINKS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/160

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

EPISODE CHAPTERS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Grant Gooding. Grant, how you doing, buddy?

Grant: Very good how you doing bud.

Stuart: Good, good, okay, this one's going to be an interesting one. So we are usually talking with authors about their book and kind of frame and get around that. Grant and I were introduced through someone else on LinkedIn I think it was originally. I'll get Grant to do a proper introduction in a second, but I went into the conversation with the expectation that this would be an interesting connection. But really their business is too separated from what we do day to day. But in the conversation that really turned out not to be the case and I really wanted to get Grant on to share what they can do or their industry with our audience here, because I think it'll be an eye opener for the potential. So, saying that to the side for a second Grant, why don't you give an intro to you and then proof positioning and what the organization is?

Grant: Sure thanks. I just appreciate that you associate the word interesting with market research. In any capacity, I'll take that as a win, no matter what. No, I appreciate it. Yes, we're a market research company, which is just the sexiest business of all time, I think. Didn't do this on purpose came from the mergers and acquisitions world, so I was a business analyst and was a consumer of market research.

I had to consume market research in order to do my job and was always, to put it lightly a little disappointed in what was done, what I had to work with and how it would actually translate into helping me understand the businesses that I was charged with analyzing. So sort of you know. You ask the never intending to be an entrepreneur, really just asking stupid questions like why don't?

people do it and kind of ended up where we are, which is something I never would have expected, and we have a very unique capability and we it's kind of a fun gig. So we work with all kinds of different sizes of organizations and we've worked with the federal government and agencies and we worked with tiny little startups that are trying to make their way, and it's a fun gig, for sure.

Stuart: I think that's what was interesting, again, being a consumer of market research in a much smaller context than as a business analyst. But you see pieces around and about and have some perceived notion or preconceived notion on what that means, and most of the I guess it's the access to that information. Most of it is coming from big organizations who are trying to nudge people in one direction or another and there's a, I think the book is called. It's either the tiger that isn't or one of the undercover economists books in the UK. They were talking about the nudge unit in the UK which was a government body test with trying to nudge.

Right, yeah, yeah, I've got that kind of social change to nudge people in the direction that the policy wanted, and a lot of that was based off market research of what the current preconceptions were in the area that they were trying to nudge and then what message can they can send out. So this idea is we were talking that market research is something that's accessible to smaller organizations, not just ones with six, seven figure market research budgets. The audience here, as I mentioned, is mainly small, medium sized business owners or people who are responsible for kind of filling their own book I think that realtors fall into that camp financial advisors. What access do they have to either existing market research that's out there that maybe they can utilize and maybe think about it from the business analyst perspective. And then, moving into, okay, I'm a business owner, I'm launching a product or tweaking a service, and maybe I haven't even considered market research. But what's the easy entry into this world for those people?

Grant: Yeah, that's a good question. When we first started, we worked with bigger companies, because that's who had budget and that's who knew what market research was and sort of knew how to use it. And then we sort of realized like well, the only reason that market research is used by big organizations is because it's so unbelievably challenging to translate. That's the reason why. So what if we just made it simple to understand?

Stuart: and really anybody could use it.

Grant: And then we also had to come up with this like sort of good enough type of mentality there's no such thing as perfect research anyway, so why does that have to be so expensive? We utilized software and process a lot to be able to have really affordable prices that allow us to work with just about anybody really, which is part of the challenge of building any business really. But then applying it in a way that made sense to any type of business owner was challenge number two, and the way that we solved for that is we created something. Well, we didn't create that. It's not very creative, but we call it burning questions. We just say what do you want to know? I mean, most of the time no one knows what to do with market research because they get an industry report and it tells them macroeconomic or even microeconomic data and they're like, okay, what am I supposed to?

Stuart: do with. How do I turn this into?

Grant: money, yeah, and it's really hard for that into money, and so therefore it's probably not a good investment for a lot of companies to invest in that type of thing.

But if you have a company like ours that says, well, what's standing in your way from getting to the next stage of your business, there's something, there's a barrier that's keeping you from growing, and typically those barriers are mental things that we need to get past customers or customers and prospects. So why are they not buying this product? We made it for them, they told us they wanted it, we built it and now they're not buying it. So why are they not buying it? Or we thought we would take this existing product and move it into this market. That was really similar and we thought it would totally translate and it's not working. Like, should we abandon this or are we just missing a nuance? And the reality is most people are missing a nuance. They don't understand the competitive landscape. Like they don't understand.

Well, yes, your solution might work, but, like, say, your software business, your solution might work, but your biggest competitor might be Excel right, which is a free solution, so it's an available alternative and that might be good enough for them. So, even though your solution might make sense in your market, you may have very low probability of being able to sell it in the way that you thought you could. So we can analyze, well, what are the elements of Excel that they like and what are the weaknesses that exist there, and maybe we can translate the weaknesses into an emotional value proposition that will entice someone to buy your product. So we approach research in a way that's highly targeted towards whatever the business wants to get accomplished, and when we do it that way, it's substantially more valuable and people can take action. So when we combine like that sort of ethos with an affordable pricing model, it works.

It's like 10 years, so it's not like that we got there.

Stuart: Yeah, it looks like a quick journey when you look back, but in the depth of it it takes a long time to get that refined. Refined and approach and actually that's a great point because that probably goes further into the biases that, as an outsider, or preconceived notions that, as an outside, you think OK, market research it's almost just an execution of. I have these questions to ask and responsible for coming up with these questions and delivering the package of questions to someone who then just executes on it. They're interpreting the data at the back end and they're really refining that. What the problem is at the front end Is that perception of a lot of that lands with the business. Is that just the wrong perception or is that how it used to be, or is that what a lot of other big companies do? And then the difference that you're really making is that intelligence around it.

Grant: So it's true to some extent, but we do a lot of hand holding through the process, because you only know what you know, I mean there are a lot of companies that we work with. They're doing research for the first time ever. So, you know, they're just trying to figure out who are we thinking of, who our customers are. We think they like this Are we missing the boat or should we go? You know, and so what we'll hold on to is that we're going to be able to help guide them through.

Stuart: Well, you don't really want to know that. You really want to know this.

Grant: So this is the question that we should be asking and then we do all the translation into, like, the types of questions that need to ask. So here's a, here's something we figured out. Most research is done as far as, like, survey work and any type of interview or interpersonal type of research fall is typically done in correct and it's not. It's our natural instinct to engage in interpersonal communication, so it's inductive analysis. I ask you a question, you give me the answer.

Right, and then I'll take that answer and I'll process that answer with other answers and then I'll find the truth. Well, the reality is that's not a good way to do research at all, and the reason is because people lie, and not necessarily to be deceitful, right, they're not mean or trying to, you know, mess with you. They're giving you a socially acceptable answer, or something that they think you might want to hear, or just the saying the first thing that pops into their head. The nuance is what people buy. People don't buy big stuff, they buy small stuff, they buy the little nuances. That and the way that those little nuances make them feel, and those things can be really lost if you engage in interpersonal methodology for research.

So we use a methodology called abduction, which is sort of the exact opposite and well, not the exact opposite, but very different and it's more like crime scene investigation. We don't really want to ask any questions, we want to analyze every variable and then we'll reverse engineer the solution. So, as a, for instance, let's say, I want to know why someone is not buying a product. I don't, I may not even ask them that question, I may not which would be like why wouldn't you ask them why they're not buying it? They're like well, because they're going to, they're going to give me an answer that's not, oh, it's too expensive. Well, that's not true. Right Like that means you've not been able to provide strong emotional value and that value is not translated into a sale. So instead I want to analyze what's important to this person.

Who are they? What's their role? What's their what? Where are they in a buying matrix? Who are they? A decision maker, are they an influencer? And then I'm going to analyze all this stuff around them and then I can very accurately infer why they're not buying. And it's a little bit weird and uncomfortable for people and there's and it's very challenging for someone to be able to do that if they're not familiar with the methodology or how to do that analysis. So we kind of walk them through really, what do you want to know? We kind of handle all the nerdy back and stuff. We don't even tell them as much as I just told you.

Stuart: Right.

Grant: Right, they don't they don't they tonight yeah.

Yeah, and you know most people really don't care, and that's something we test, by the way. No one cares how the sausage is made. If you talk about what your business does and how it works, I assure you you are losing money If you do that because no one cares. We had an article we wrote called your customers don't care about you, where we analyze that mathematically and have very accurate results. And it's sadly true, no one cares. And so and then on the back end, all we have kind of this rule. There's like this rule of three.

I don't know where this came from, but I don't know who said this, but it's sort of true and brilliant in its simplicity and that's if you give someone three things to do, they'll do all three, and if you give them four, they'll do zero. So so we analyze all their burning questions. So why aren't they buying this product? Who are the? What's a competitive matrix look like? What should we be saying to them? Right, can we upsell them this product?

We analyze whatever they want and then we look at the biggest areas of opportunity that exists and then we make those recommendations at the end. So it's not just handing somebody a bunch of data, it's saying, hey, this is a, this is one of your questions. Here's the answer, and these are the three things that you should do in order to activate on that and and make and to change behavior. If you want to get someone to buy, do these three things and they will start buying. You know, and so you. If you put output like that, the average person will knows how to consume it. They can even hand it to someone else on their team that wasn't involved in the process and they know what to do.

Stuart: Yeah, it's actionable and useful. It's not just giving someone homework to go and interpret and add in another layer of, of, of perception or whatever position they're in. It's actually just giving them some steps that they can follow through and then test the results of those. Yeah.

Grant: It was getting simple stuff like that right that made a really big difference in, because I remember years ago we would give someone stuff that was right, we like here's the output, and they wouldn't do anything and we thought it was their fault. They're like I think it's our fault. I think we're not giving this to them in a way where they can understand it simply and easily take action. And you know the old rule of thumb where, like the most, the things with the most value are the most simple Right. And I was like we were too complicated so we just constantly try to.

Stuart: There's a need, and we've all found this as well. There is a need to over complicate things and try and give perceived value through complexity, whereas the reality is, if you can get their outputs as simple as possible and then, if they actually execute an action, take action on it. We have it with. So the book set up in most of our models is pick the single target market, decide what the quarter action is, what the next step is that you want them to do, and the book is then the mechanism for getting to this output, whether or not people read it or not, and the way that they get from A to B, from cover to cover, is just, almost.

Just think about the table of contents and if someone just saw that as signposts, is that communicating the right language? Is it giving them the friendly feeling? Is it moving them in that direction or taking that small next step? But it's so easy to get caught up in the production side of things, and when we look back at some of the completed jobs and if far too much of their effort has been on the from the point that they record the content on the production side, if that takes way longer than the getting to the content side, then it's a sign that I went a bit awry. And if there's, as an emails to, or not a thousand, but 10 emails just to do the production steps, which really should be one email, it's the effort is in the wrong place.

Grant: That's Anybody. How we trick ourselves into thinking that complexity equals greater value.

Stuart: Right, right yeah.

Grant: It's just opposite.

Stuart: Yeah, particularly now. I mean I think maybe 20, 30 years ago there might have been. When you think about, I mean, I can remember working in I think we're a similar age I'll use this if I'm aging but I can remember being in a job pre email. Someone had email addresses. There were no websites, it was all phone based stuff, and there was an element of that kind of technological transition where more really was more, as new things came up in new capabilities, landing pages, email sequences, chatbots, all of these things where more could be more.

I think there was an element of okay, we need to do new stuff, but now, at a stage where the noise is so great, there's so much stuff that could be done, you really need to simplify and then dial in on the stuff that moves the needle, which I think then ties back to what you're doing. A company, I imagine, would come to you with a problem and the answer could be 50 things Maybe they could have a good shot and narrowing it down to 25. But through the research, really finding the three that move the needle, I guess that's what makes the real difference. It's not just an academic exercise.

Grant: Yeah that's if you really nerd out about what research is. It's not if people say, well, they think we find the correct solution, but the reality is we try to give options that are all correct so the company can take the path that is most aligned with who they are. There are values and how they wanna grow their company. There's just one solution. We are actually a variable eliminator. So you're right. At any like, the most challenging business problems are the ones that have 50 correct solutions, and we just have a really interesting mechanism that allows us to say that's true, but these 46 aren't gonna yield you as much money, or they're just not. You know, the messaging stays like a word. So here's four options. All four of these are going to work to some extent. This one's gonna work better than all of them, but that doesn't mean you have to do that, and it's much more. This is something that was we took us a while to figure out as well, but we would always say well, let's really show the highest mathematically performing strategy intact.

Stuart: Right.

Grant: And again people wouldn't do them and we were like, well, why not? You're like, well, it's because people are people and they're gonna. You know it's like it's their company. They can burn it to the ground if they want. Give them options and let them make that. You know, make that justification on their own, because they may not wanna do that thing right.

Stuart: Maybe like that.

Grant: I don't like the way that feels no.

Stuart: That's the interesting piece, which almost ties into the whole market research. Element of it's the answers that people give if you're doing the direct asking unnecessarily, the answers that are the right answers or the answers that there are the truth. I guess giving people the three or four options that make sense. You don't know why someone doesn't picks one over another. It might be some completely unrelated business reason that they just don't wanna do it. But at least given them the options of the mathematically best answers, it means that they're more likely to be successful than anything else.

Grant: Well, the reason is the same reason that we do research in the first place, and that's people are different, right, you know? And in many ways we are barely different from our 13 year old selves. A lot of the social biases and beliefs that exist are concreted in our brain around the age of 13. So what kind of the product of our parents in many ways. And those beliefs are changed only through immersion or trauma. So immersion would be like college, for instance. You are in an immersive environment where you're there all the time and you're surrounded by different viewpoints and those viewpoints can change your belief system. Trauma, either emotional trauma or actual head trauma, can change your beliefs as well, but that's really it.

So we make irrational decisions. This is sort of the basis of our research is around emotional resonance testing, which I don't know if that's ever nerdy enough to go into. People care about that, but we didn't figure this out. But the fact of the matter is we make almost every decision, and I say almost because there are some detractor neuroscientists that believe approximately 3% of our decisions are made with our smart brain and those are the detractors.

Stuart: So those are the ones that are like we're not emotive creatures.

Grant: We don't make emotional. We don't make 100%. I personally believe approximately 100% of our decisions are made with our emotive brain, and part of the reason of that is I see irrational things all the time in our data that make absolutely no sense at all. But then also look at the world. You think we're a rational species. I mean, come on. I mean, basically, what happens is information comes into the amygdala of the brain, it's sent back to the limbic system, which is where our social belief system is, it's where a lot of our instincts are, and then we go.

If we don't understand something, it's too complicated. It's a very good rule of thumb for any business owner. If the information is too complicated, it will go from the decision making part of the brain up into here. So Antonio DeMascio, who's the most cited neuroscientist in history, now basically concluded that the brain, the frontal below here, which is what we do like engineering and mathematics with His estimation is that 0% of our decisions come out of that part of our brain. What happens is the limbic system talks to it when there's something complicated that doesn't understand it. It gives output back to the dumb emotional brain and then the emotional brain is like okay and it does whatever that's on the way.

If you're looking at a salad in a cheeseburger, I mean, look at human beings. We, you know it's just, and even you would say, oh well, the, if we chose the salad, that's a rational decision. But like, no, it's not. That's still emotional, Right, You're doing it because you want to improve yourself image, or you're doing it because you know what I mean. There's some emotive reason. You're doing that as well, or anyway. So we have a metric that allows us to identify if someone's making an emotional decision or if they're making a logical decision. And if they're making a logical decision, our advice is don't do that thing, Because you're literally talking to a part of the brain that is not going to output a decision. So use the emotionally resonant messages and you're going to be more successful is a mathematical certainty.

Stuart: So that's an interesting point Because when we say again, turn it back to the book audience, it's easy to think about the book as an academic project because all of our experiences around books being academic I mean particularly I mean maybe fiction at one end, but even fiction you go back to, like English lessons and having to write things in and get marked, so it's naturally sits in that camp.

And then when we're talking about how do people resonate and get that conversation going with people in order to they want to make the next step. We then layer on the point that we said before about everyone thinks they're more complicated is better and want to demonstrate how clever we are and how are things unique and different. But really the emotional connection to the problem and the emotional resolution triggers in the chapter titles that move people towards that next step, which is the call to action and the reach out and call me or fill out this form, whatever the next step is having that connected with emotional outcomes way more than technical solutions or superior solutions. That seems like it would be far more effective tool.

Grant: People are very frustrated when we show them that they're incredibly sophisticated fancy pants thing is irrelevant, but the fact that someone will answer their phone call, they're like that's the thing. The idea how long this took us to make that, yeah, like what are you doing for them that allows them to improve their life? And if you're not focused on that, you're focused on the wrong thing. I do think, speaking of that sort of targeted message, your books do that. Well, we always try to do what we call probably not all that appropriately punch somebody in the face. If you punch somebody in the face, you got their attention and there's no better way to do that than to have a highly specific, highly niche conversation.

The problem with how our dumb brain works is that anytime we're especially going to put a book out, I like that you talk about how it's like sort of an academic, like we throw note as an academic thing when textbooks are big and they cover lots of subjects.

But that's a four way like your brain wants to do that, because you're like well, if I'm going to write this book, but it's only right if I'm going to write a book and it's only going to talk about how to transition my business to my children, like, oh my God. But there's so much more like, let's just look at our client base, like that's just a part of our business model. Those are great clients, those legacy clients are great to have, but my God, look how much we're leaving on the table. So we should have chapters that are about other stuff too. And they start increasing the scope and increasing the scope and increasing the scope and the next thing you know, you got a textbook that no one cares about. So having a highly niche product that speaks to a very specific audience and punches them in the face will be substantially more effective than just poking a whole bunch of people.

Stuart: If I can get your phone number so we can send them, all our clients, through to you to reinforce that message first, that will go along.

Grant: It's not me, it's a physiological certainty, Like that's the way we work.

Stuart: It's so interesting I mean, tying back to that point of simplicity is the solution that everyone's looking for and almost the product, particularly, I think, with the majority of people that we're working with the books on a fiction product to a no one's buying a book to be entertained.

The job of work of the book isn't the words in the page. The job of work is to move people to the next step and help them get one step closer to the solution, whether they're doing that themselves or whether they need you to do that. So, with that in mind, making those steps as simple as possible and the fact that this piece of the puzzle is one in a multi-step stage, how do you find the clients that come to you and the work that they engage? Is the scope relatively constrained and they're trying to get you to fix one problem but maybe not the rest of the business? Or do a lot of people think about the emotional triggers that you're uncovering? They then look at that as information that can flow through to the rest of the business. Are they trying to fix just a marketing problem or just a product problem, when really the triggers are applicable across the board?

Grant: Most of the time, we're going to force them even if they don't want to look at a moralistic environment around the business.

Because like I said, it may not be the product, it may be how the market is looking at an available alternative and that could be devastating to the business. So we may look at, like the Excel example I gave, we may go all right. So the biggest issue people have with Excel when they're trying to solve this problem that your comprehensive software solves is X. So we know that we will have a higher mathematical probability to create interest if we talk about X. So that is not only a marketing solution but it's also a product of development solution, like when you're talking about your product. That needs to be the first thing. And, by the way, if you talk about a second thing and a third thing and a fourth thing, every time you do that you're actually decreasing the value in their head because they may not need that, like I just needed to do this and so to only talk about that one thing. And then you need to make sure that the product is engineered in a way that allows them to take advantage of that particular characteristic as soon as possible.

So it may be that we'll come out of this with a very comprehensive, very accurate messaging or marketing strategy, but it might touch several other instances of the business because we might go well everybody's. You know, we also see that everybody gets stuck at a certain point. You need to make sure that you have people that are there to answer phone calls, even if that has absolutely nothing to do with the business model. But we know people want that, so just give it to them. And we have to have customer service. People, like we don't even have customer service, to be like it's a sales tool, right, like so we never know what the heck is going to go on. But we, but you're definitely better off assessing the holistic environment, and if you're doing a study anyway, you can do it.

You just got to make sure that who you're working with knows that can analyze your entire unit to some extent and help you figure some of that stuff out.

Stuart: That piece you mentioned about the competitive analysis often being a kind of a reveal for people, in that they think they've engineered a perfect solution, but there's other products out there that they maybe haven't considered or they consider in a different way that the research then reveals that this is the real competitive and the pinch points. How often is it that people get that results as opposed to? I guess a lot of people go into it with pre-desived expectations of what the results are going to be before they actually come out. Typically are people surprised by the results or do they reinforce what they were thinking?

Grant: We'll do a few things. One of them we call a true share wallet, and what that does is it shows them who else their clients that are competitors or indirect competitors, who else they've hired.

It could be in management, consulting, it could be in software, it could be in accounting, it could be, in almost any business service in this type of example, and they're typically shocked to find out how high the number of their customers it's typically a very high. We delivered one this week and their actual share of what was 83%. So that means 83% of their customers were also using a direct competitor and it gives them a lot of like.

Their initial reaction is oh crap, and I got to stop them and go not. Oh crap, oh good. And they're like what do you mean? We're like well, look, what that means is what you do is important to that person, so that's a good thing. Just because they're using another solution provider does not mean they don't like you. It means they really like the thing and that's great.

You need more of those people and you shouldn't look at it as, oh, we're losing money and a share of wallets is other organization. You should be counting your lucky stars that you are able to identify customer that loves what you do so much that they're willing to hire multiple providers to do it. So that's typically a shock when we show people that analysis, because they don't. You know, it's the same thing is true for us. You know. Many of our especially larger customers have several market research providers that do various things. We have one very specific thing that we do really well, and so we do that thing. But they also like industry researchers and other types of things that they do, and I don't care, I love if they like research. I want to be friendly.

Stuart: Thank you. So, understanding that the industry, the solution is important to them, and then niching down to the real service that you can provide much better than the competitors, that's such a huge advantage and simplifies even when the business owners point of view, simplifies the whole model and way of thinking, because it does constrain the scope to being an expert in this area. And now you've evidence that the area is big enough, that there's a market there that you can serve. It's trying to be too many things to too many people. It just is very, it's very thin. The book business, I mean there's. We've been doing this for over 10 years now and in that time there's many competitors have come up, but our unique approach to the way that we do it is pretty distinct from the others and the others. If someone wants a New York Times bestseller, then our solution isn't best for them. It's a different offering.

Grant: Yeah, that was one of my favorite things about your brand is that you very much know who you are and you communicate it overtly. And one of my first takeaways is everybody, if we're being really honest with ourselves, a book is a solution to a mental barrier. It's. This person has credibility and they know what you're talking about. And you said it earlier about how it's a step to get someone to the next thing. It's exactly right. And if we're being honest with ourselves as potential authors, that is what we want. What else do we want? We want to make millions of dollars selling a book. It's not going to happen, but if it can get us in the door or provide some differentiation from other service providers, that's an insanely valuable tool.

And most people that would be a competitor of yours. I don't think they'd have the balls to say that, even though it's exactly true and it's precisely what the author is thinking in their head. They're just not saying it out loud. You know why? Because we lie right, and I said earlier, we lie Because we don't want to say hey, look, man, I don't really care if this is a New York Times, I don't care. I don't even care if people read it. I want them to read the title, see my name and I want them to go. This person has credibility. Therefore I'm going to take a meeting or therefore I'm going to have them come speak at my event. That's all I want. We don't say that to the book people Because it sounds like it's so socially acceptable. It is a white lie that hides the real nuance of the value of the product.

Stuart: Of what they're trying to do, that ability, I think, the discipline that you bring to the conversation around cutting to the chase of what's the actual outcome that we're interested in and understanding that everyone's what actually comes out of their mouth isn't necessarily the truth, even if it's not quite a lie, but that really is the ability to cut through to what's important and what moves the needle, and I think that was what really stood out in our early conversation and bridging the gap in my head at least, between market research which I'd always previously thought of as a big surveying people on the phone or on the street, and hundreds of thousands of dollars, through to a smaller project that's trying to answer one particular question or one particular set of questions that really moves the needle. On the business front, we started off by saying that market research or you were saying market research isn't the most interesting of subjects. But four minutes in and I can think of another 40 minutes worth of questions we should do a follow-up show, maybe a little bit further down the track, maybe actually maybe we'll get some feedback from the audience and pick up on some of their questions and follow up there. But one of the things I definitely wanted to touch on before we run out of time was this idea of the audience listening to this are going to be business owners in real locations dealing with 100 to 1000 real customers.

Their ability to use market research or to kick off a market research project where they may be trying to I don't even know that it's so much rolling out a brand new project, because we don't tend to deal with that many startup type organizations. It tends to be more organization to maybe try to pivot or get a better market message, kind of tie their message in with what they're doing. Are there any clients you've worked with before who are maybe at the end of the spectrum, who are real, not real businesses, but not big organizations with big budgets, but they're small organizations that are trying to fix one particular problem. I'm trying to put the scope of it in to really get the penny to drop for people as they listen to this and how it could resonate and work for them.

Grant: Yeah, even when we do work for big companies, we're typically only tackling one situation, so a lot of times we think of things in situational terms. By the way, a lot of people buy in situations as well, so it's an important distinction to make. When you're thinking about your customers, that's going to die a tribe, but people think like demographics and psychographics.

These are important things, but no, they're not. We think of them as coincidences. If it were that easy, we wouldn't need to come up with value propositions. We would just say dear female between the ages of 25 to 35, that's not. They happen to be like there's something about their life stage and how they view the world, or what they believe or what they're trying to accomplish that is driving them towards. Your product has nothing to do. The demographic characteristics are only a reasonable targeting mechanism that allows us to like easily wrap our head around. You know, we should go talk to this group of people and we're going to be more successful.

Stuart: Right.

Grant: But we're typically only tackling one kind of idea and that's how people work. It's not like when we meet someone they're like well, we're trying to grow and scale. You know, we're at we're $5 million right now and we're trying to get to 10. So here are the eight things that are keeping us from getting there. Most people don't even know that there's one thing that's really driving them nuts. They're like if we could just figure out why people aren't doing this, or if we could figure out how to get people to do this, we can get there.

So that's a type of that's the type of thing we typically work on is all right, well, we'll go tackle that for you. We'll get some stuff around the periphery, but that, if we tell you that answer, you'll know what to do. You either can't do anything right, it's uncontrollable variables and we can figure that out or we could say do this, do that, and you're the needle's going to start moving. So it is. It's not comprehensive. I would say that. But I think being comprehensive is a weakness because, again, if I gave you eight things to do, you're not going to do them all.

But, if I give you a solution to one thing that you think is really keeping you from growing, you're going to execute on it. That's start moving the needle.

Stuart: What about in terms of organizations or industries? So there are any. When you think about your ideal clients or the people you can help the best, are there any types of businesses or types of questions that they're trying to resolve that you can best help them with?

Grant: Yeah. So I would say somebody like me should know that answer. But the reality is no. If you have something that is keeping you from growing, moving your business to the next level, pivoting, launching a new product and you believe that the answer lies in understanding people and if you understand people you can be more successful then you're probably our target market and some which sounds weird you'd be like well, why wouldn't you think that's important? Some people don't. Some people we found we'll tell them exactly what to do. Here's a funny story.

We had a guy that had a business that had. It was a retail type of business. They had like 10 locations and the math was starting to not look so great. So we figured it out. We said this is what's going on, this is what you need to do. Here are the three things you need to do to course correct. And if you do those things, this will work. And I said but I do have bad news. I don't see another solution. So if you don't do this, you're probably it's probably going to be bad news.

He chose not to do it. He chose to do what he wanted, what he was thinking of doing before engaging in research, and it didn't work. I'm not going to tell you what business it was in, but he called me because he was in bankruptcy. And he called me and he said you know what? You told me what to do. I should my ego was big, I should have listened. I'd like to send you this. It was a very expensive product, which is what the company sold. I'll send you this as a way to say I'm sorry and I'm like you're not going to do that and but I was going to take it. And then he called me like a couple of weeks later and he goes. My lawyer just told me that I'm not allowed to give away any product. All of our assets are in bankruptcy, so I can't even do that. But it was so. People choose to ignore the research because we're human beings.

You can burn it down, do what you want.

Stuart: Right and with that, people are human beings and us as business owners fall into that category and our customers fall into that category and the partners that we work with fall into that category. So having a way of slicing through, which is, to a certain degree, what we try and do with the books, but it's nowhere near as it's a record and a kind of a direction that we try and push people, but it's still a record to have access to your tools and insights and the ability for you guys to go out there and actually test and get some data that supports that which, of the reckons we should pick it really downs in. So, hopefully, as people are listening to this they're already listening and on our list because they've got a predilection for being a little bit more targeted, going for that single target audience, understanding that there's stepping stones in the campaign. So to be able to now layer on a framework for the. It's the emotional decisions that people make that drive all of their decisions, on 97% of their decisions, depending which camp you're in, but all of the decisions in see taking those next steps.

I'm just really excited to be able to share this with people and give them the opportunity to learn more about what you guys do and hopefully it reinforces the message that we're giving in that the single target market is the way to go and specific single job of work is the best approach. But then, as I say, people now have a resource to reach out to you guys and engage you with when they've got that really pressing problem that they want to solve. So, with that being said, want to make sure that people do have access to you and the team over there. Where's a good place for people to check out more if they, as they resonate with this, and want to find out more?

Grant: Our company is called www.proofpositioning.com or you can Google my name, Grant Gooding. I have a weird name, which is good. There is another, Grant Gooding, that apparently is a very talented swimmer, I think in Virginia, maybe close to here. Anyway, I'm not a swimmer.

Stuart: On the other one, If they're Googling and see the picture of the guy in the trunks, it's not you.

Grant: I'll be the one, probably in the dress shirt, not in the, that would be.

Stuart: Good way of telling. Well, we'll put links to. I'll put links to your LinkedIn profile and the company site in the show notes, so that's definitely going to be the easiest way of people getting straight through. So make sure that people can find out. You mentioned before there was an article you wrote that was talking about the psychological element. So I'm guessing that's a lot of the articles, but one particularly Is that on the blog on the site. Is that where you put a lot of the content, or is that usually on LinkedIn?

Grant: That? What Are you talking about? The Atonio de Massio word?

Yeah, I think so that should be a book, in my opinion. No one has written that book. It's a very compelling story. Maybe in our follow-up I could talk more about the neuroscience behind our process and because it's kind of the whole thing. Yeah, so people do find it very intriguing. We reference his work, but there's like three books I can give you a link. There's like three books that he has written kind of in this space. He was a consciousness theory guy, but I can kind of give you those links. The one that was maybe the most famous is called this Car's Air, and that is where he basically proves out this idea that we are a motive in our decision-making and not logical.

Stuart: Okay, perfect. I'll put a link to that one as well, because sometimes people just want to read up more on the subject and progress today on actually making a decision as someone that has to read some of this stuff.

Grant: It is really hard to read the work of a neuroscientist. Right and for other neuroscientists, of which I have not one, and so even reading the executive summaries can be very painful.

Stuart: I'll tell you what, then, instead of killing people with that, if I'll jump around on the content that you guys have put out in the past and try and link to something a little bit more useful just talking about the high-level framework as a first step for people to take, so style six and links to the more useful, the less academic stuff in the show notes, we try to simplicity equals value.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a better way, and then people can do their own. If they want to spend a weekend reading some academic stuff, they can do that elsewhere. Fantastic, as always, these podcasts go fast. It would be really interesting to follow up. This show is going to go out in a couple of weeks from the point that we record, so I'll gather some feedback and, if people got questions but as you're listening to this, really encourage headed over to the proof site, because not only is there the stepping stones for taking next steps, there's also some really interesting information on the approach and there's just some graphical representations that it's difficult to get across in the podcast. So definitely recommend people following through on those links as well. Thank you, buddy, it's really been a pleasure. As always, we'll cycle back for sure in a couple of months and I'll make sure that people can link through to you directly and really interested to hear what conversations come from it.

Grant: Do what I appreciate, you brother.

Stuart: Okay, well, take care, stay warm, and then we'll talk soon.

Grant: Thank you.

Today on the Book More Show, I'm joined by my good friend Aalok Y Shukla, Cofounder at Implement AI, as we discover the potential of voice AI.

I've known Aalok for more than a decade. He's always been fast to adopt new technologies, so it was no surprise to see him, along with his cofounder Piers Linney, launch Implement AI, an organization dedicated to helping companies adapt to the new AI world.

They have just launched an amazing interactive voice agent, and our discussion traces its evolution into empathetic systems, exploring tone, accent, and personalized experiences.

We talked about Aalok's mother's encounter with their AI agent, and we shared my interaction and how impressed I was at the AI's seamless conversation skills.

Wrapping up, we examine Agents role in redefining lead capture and management through fast follow-up tailored to each customer and reshaping customer service, sales and personalized outreach.

Early in the show I've inserted my audio with the AI. The recording is from the server side, and it's amazing to hear how conversational the AI is, even with my bad cell phone connection. It's well worth a listen.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

LINKS

Show notes & video: 90minutebooks.com/podcast/159

Questions/Feedback: Send us an email

EPISODE CHAPTERS

(0:00:01) - Amplified Expert Podcast and Voice AI

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Anyone welcome to what I think I've just decided I'm going to call the amplified expert podcast. Not, this is important enough for a new show all by itself, so I'm going to put this in the normal 90 minute books feed. So hide all the 90 minute books crowd. But I think this, where we're going, is worthwhile to create a whole new show by itself. So I look at Shukla Great to see you have you as a first guest. We go back a long way. I'm excited to share what we were just talking about with people. So why don't you give everyone a quick introduction in case they haven't crossed pass with you before?

Aalok: Of course, always a pleasure to catch up with you, Stuart. So my name is Aalok and I'm co-founder of Implement AI, and in the UK, my co-founder is Piers Linney. He was on Shark Tank in the UK, so if you're English, you might know who he is and we're helping businesses implement AI. And, stuart, we've been talking about technology for many years and we've done, you know, different things in the past. And, yeah, just our conversations about, like, where technology is going, and voice AI in particular, and the whole reinvention of interfaces and the way we interface with technology and how things make it easier. It's super fascinating. So I thought it's great to catch up with you and go through, because there were so many use cases we were literally talking through just a few days ago.

Stuart: Yeah, and that's it. So I think having access to such a broad customer base on the book side of the business gives us a thousand different use cases where all of these ideas, this opportunity to amplify your voice and implement these AI tools is such a good jumping off point for conversations, because it takes you out of your immediate thought zone on your own business into all of these different clients who have written books and their individual cases. So let's we're as we do.

This is the yeah, this is the dive in and the raw, the raw example of the idea that we're sharing with people. So I think for the podcast we'll insert some video and some clips afterwards, but maybe the first one that I'll insert is your LinkedIn post from a couple of days ago that had your mom talking to the voice system. So maybe give a bit of a background on the voice system generally. And then, yeah, absolutely.

Aalok: : Yeah, absolutely. So basically, we work with voice AI and we create voice AI agents which can be at the end of a phone line or on a computer screen, like on a website, and you can literally just talk to it. And I gave it to my mom to basically see how, how she would feel about interacting with it, the technology, and it was literally acting as a sales assistant and she found it very empathetic and it, you know, responding in a nice way, and she found it quite intuitive and easy to use as well and she said it was much friendlier than a lot of the bank ones and things which tend to only ask you information and don't give you anything back. So that the difference in the interface now is the generative AI. You can actually be more personal and convey some warmth.

I've got some little of the distinctions where I feel that tone is more important than accent. She was using one which still had an Australian accent, but it was still, you know, very warm. Now we've got an English accent one. But I would ask you, sture, you did a call with our AI, isn't it Right? Like, why don't you tell everyone like how you found it, because you also tried to trip it up a few places as well, isn't it?

Stuart: Only in a nice way I was trying to feel to where the boundaries were not necessarily push it over. So you tell me the link a week or so ago and then, just before we spoke the other day, I dialed into the system. Can you get access to that audio recording as well, or do you just get the transcript.

Aalok: : I'll give it to you.

Stuart: Yeah, shoot me that audio and then I'll insert it here and then, if I get the time right, people can now just listen to it and then I'll talk about it and they can join a couple of seconds later. So understand what we were talking about.

AI EXCERPT

Jess: Hi, this is Jess from Implement AI. I'm an AI specialist here to help you discover the best opportunities to implement artificial intelligence in your business. Can you tell me your name?

Stuart: Stuart.

Jess: Great, it's nice to meet you, Stuart. Stuart, please can you confirm your company name?

Stuart: It's Nightmare Books.

Jess: Sounds great. Could you tell me a little about what your company does?

Stuart: The company name is 90-Minute Books.

Jess: That's interesting. 90-minute Books. I assume you specialize in creating books quickly, Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. That's impressive. Creating books in such a short amount of time can be a game changer for authors and businesses. Are you looking to use artificial intelligence to grow sales or reduce costs?

Stuart: Yeah, potentially just have more access to the more touch points for the customers so people can phone and get through to a voice rather than just an email.

Jess: That's a great idea, Stuart. Using AI to enhance customer touch points can significantly improve customer experience and engagement. May I ask what your role is in the company?

Stuart: Yeah, in the company.

Jess: Thank you, stuart. As the head of the company, you're in a prime position to steer its growth. Could you tell me a bit about the challenges your company is currently facing? Thank you for sharing that, stuart. It sounds like one of the main challenges your company is facing is the need for more touch points with customers to build confidence and encourage them to move forward. With writing a book, speeding up the process from idea to execution is crucial. Where, specifically, do you see the opportunity for artificial intelligence's potential applications in your business?

Stuart: From our perspective, it's definitely the case that we can use it in our sales funnel. So calls like this, but then also helping people with their ideation and refining their thoughts into a more compelling funnel. So there's two sides for us and for their clients.

Jess: Interesting insights, Stuart. Using AI in your sales funnel and to help with ideation can certainly streamline processes and make them more efficient. Have you or your team undergone any training in AI or related technologies?

Stuart: Yes.

Jess: That's helpful to know, stuart. Having some training in AI or related technologies can definitely give you a head start in implementing AI solutions effectively. One last question Is your goal to stay informed and ahead in your industry, or are you looking to be a leader and leverage AI for a competitive edge? That's great to hear, stuart. Being a leader and leveraging AI for a competitive edge can truly transform your business. When were you looking to implement AI in your business?

Stuart: Since it makes sense.

Jess: Thank you for these valuable insights, stuart, based on what you've shared. Implement AI can assist you in streamlining your sales funnel, enhancing ideation processes and, ultimately, helping you become a leader in your industry by leveraging AI for a competitive edge. Would you like to schedule a consultation with our experts to explore this further?

Stuart: That's okay. I've got a call with Alex this afternoon Scheduled already.

Jess: Perfect, Stuart. It sounds like you're already on the right track. We're looking forward to speaking with you and Alex this afternoon. We'll be in touch and remember you can hang up at any time. Have a great day ahead.

Stuart: Thank you.

Jess: You're welcome, Stuart. If you have any questions before the call, feel free to reach out. Goodbye for now.

END EXCERPT

Stuart: So, knowing that it was an AI, I went into the conversation trying to be as testing it in a real scenario, so as if I'd in, as if I didn't know. And I think the two things that jumped out at the end of the process were one how good the voice is. I mean, I think now we're past the point where you can really detect the difference between a live human voice and an AI voice. I was on separately on the call yesterday. There's a quick AI also as part of over the last couple of days and one of their examples. They just started talking about generative visual models and they said okay, here's a quick quiz. Click on these 10 images, tell me which one's generated and which one's real. And I mean, you really couldn't tell the difference. In fact, that got funny because, as we were talking in the group, we were saying, well, the AI on that image looks a little bit off. But then we suddenly realized that well, that means it's probably real because the generated one is probably a little bit perfect. And now it feels like we're just picking on someone's picture. So, anyway, from the voice perspective it's the same. You really can't tell the difference.

And the thing that stood out to me as the use case was its ability to interpret the answers and not just go down a very scripted yes or no answer. So I gave it some very short answers and it elaborated on what I'd said in a meaningful way. I gave it a couple of very long answers, or answering one question with two different perspectives, and it was able to respond and give a response just as you would expect a human to do, by understanding that there were two different things and talking about them in that context. So when I think about it and the use case for people listening now, they might have thought about voice prompt systems, as I can say a bank, press one, press two, press three, which is very. Do you want this?

Aalok: : Yeah, exactly Like a complete robotic.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly, robotic, scripted, very narrow. For most of us as business owners in the audience that we're talking to now, it's not really that relevant because we're just not trying to push that much volume through those small pipes. But this was really an eye opener to say okay, whether you're a dentist and trying to schedule appointments, or whether you're a beautician salon and you've got some open appointments and you want to make outage back you know you want to call back leads for your, like your, heating.

Aalok: : You know, you know, pretend to know what the stress the VAC stands for like relation and air conditioning.

Stuart: Well, the UK air condition does exist, but that's why you don't know what that is.

Aalok: : But yeah, or even at real estate ages, like we talked about, or even you know people who maybe are inactive customers. They want to be reactivated. I think the different, the differentiation of distinction between those kind of automated systems which is like press one after the tone to this is this actually is the AI playing the role of what you want it to play? So we literally set it up to be almost a sales assistant for implement AI in that example that you interact with there is asking you questions about where your pain points are, what you're looking for, and also you know whether you're looking to be a leader or just you know, stay ahead of the curve and all those answers where you're having a conversation back, you get way more data and way more analytics than if you ask someone to fill out a form which might be are you looking to do this or that.

You lose all the bandwidth in the nuance of all of the intent and with this I think it's amazing for capturing all the intent, and I'm not even going to get into the fact that you can run it through analytics afterwards for advanced sentiment. You know tone across 48 emotional, emotional dimensions to analyze that even more. There's all sorts of stuff you can do, but the bottom line is people actually, when they're talking back and forth, and would you like an appointment to you know, would you like to do this? I see it as a nice step between the purely digital online world or the print world and, like the real person, online consultation or in person consultation or whatever. It's a hybrid step that you can access digitally 24, seven, any place, any time, but it will reply to you with the personality of the business and you capture a lot of intent. So I just felt that's another nice step in that whole process, isn't it basically?

Stuart: And it really makes it more, more real and more human, in the sense that you've got much more of a two way conversation and although I think still it maybe makes sense that people identify that it is AI versus a human Although I mean that's borderline, you can really get away with not doing that but I think from the overall, where this fits in your fun, it maybe makes sense to suggest that this is an agent doing a particular role and not an open ended conversation. I don't think. But to be able to extract that, I mean even going into this. So there was, maybe I was on the phone for maybe three minutes. Again, people will have listened to it by this point in the conversation, but by the end of it I don't know that I'd say that I'd completely forgotten that I was talking to an agent. But it certainly wasn't fun and centre in my mind, because maybe the tone and pace of the conversation was very normal. I mean, maybe if you were really dialed in and being picky, the response where it's waiting to know if I've stopped talking, it's kind of holding off a little bit. But I mean this is really going into it, knowing that it is and looking for where the edges are, rather than just answering a phone call and seeming to be speaking to someone. So what might be useful is give.

I can think of two examples that really immediately sprung to mind for the audience listening here of how it could fit into that funnel. So the first one talking about book clients. So for anyone who's written a book, I'm going to use Paul Ross as an example. So he's a podiatrist up in the north, the northeast. We've done a couple podcasts with him in the past, so I'll link back to his previous show as well is just in the show notes If people want to get up to speed with what he does. So his latest book he's written several with us, but his latest one is my Damn Toe Hurts and it's about non surgical interventions to toe pain, not quite arthritis, but that kind of. Again, I'm immediately forgetting the exact specifics of what it is.

Aalok: : I get it though.

Stuart: One is going to see that ad in their Facebook feed, running a Facebook ad against it. Think to themselves oh, I'm suffering from this problem. That'll be interesting. Opt in through one or two clicks to get a copy of the digital version of the book. An email would be sent out with it. Within Facebook, you've got the opportunity to capture a phone number as well. So let's say that's the setup. Someone receives the copy of the book and then the next day receives a phone call from their agent to say correct, all, straight away, even actually. I mean, I'm saying the next day, but you could be straight away. I'm always kind of on the edge of how creepy do you want to be about? So I've just been watching you and saw you click this button, so I'm calling you. So anyway, 10 minutes.

So 10 minutes later they get a call saying hey, it's okay, I work with. Paul, just emailed you a copy of the book. I just want to make sure you got that. But also, if you've got a minute, ask you a couple of quick questions. How long have you had the pain for? Is it just isolated to that area? Have you tried any treatment before? Oh, that's great.

Aalok: : What's it stopping you? Is it stopping you from doing anything like something like this? How is it affecting your life? All those high band with emotional motivation questions? The only place you normally capture that stuff is in a live consultation. Normally people will not emote that they're stopping me going dancing or my daughter's wedding or this. They will never put those things into a form. But this if you architect the conversation properly and there's a whole art to that and along with the AI persona, you can extract that and then you can then know who's highly motivated. Basically, right.

And ultimately, they could even potentially sign up for the service before they receive the book, isn't it Right? So they can send it to their ships, or digital, or whatever.

Stuart: Yeah, exactly by the time they've got to their email or by the time they've made time to, particularly when they're in the moment of being peak interest because they've just expressed a desire to see your family.

Yeah, exactly, the AI agent asking those questions you were talking there about eliciting the answer that says oh well, the problem is that it's stopping me from moving around and my daughter's weddings in six months time and I'm concerned that I won't be able to move there. The immediate response is that compassionate, immediate response by the agent was able to pull out those elements of the conversation and kind of replay it back to someone, so it really does reinforce the points, and then the call to action at the end of that conversation, having collected that information, could be hey, that's great, it sounds like we can really do something to help you. The next step is to come in for an appointment. So are you available on whatever the time is, or the next step will be to call. Thank you, yeah, exactly.

Aalok: : Or it could even WhatsApp you the booking link, for example, right, and you can just, you know, choose that yourself or whatever like that. So the technology is like moving on quite a lot, basically right, you know, and it just unlocks so much potential.

Stuart: And the speed and convenience and even the friendly way of doing it, because it is non-threatening, it is very conversational. To a certain degree it is kind of rapport building with the brand, because it does feel like it's.

Aalok: : I'm getting upset. I can't go off-peast.

Stuart: Yeah, it's not going to have a bad day. So it sounds like oh, I've got a phone with another customer up and be frustrated with it. It really is. The perfect implementation of this is what you would do as an individual if you had all the bandwidth in the world. It's just now that there's a capability to make sure that it happens in a timely way.

Aalok: : Even, for example, like I'm just making up now, but let's say you have some kind of planning service, like even like a wedding planning service or even like a kind of design service or anything like this, and normally your expert time to have that conversation, have that meeting, is highly bespoke and expensive. But then in between you've got some materials, but you still need to kind of understand what's their vision, what they're trying to do and all that stuff. You can almost have this as an AI guide. You know, talk to my AI guide and they will give you some tips and give you some advice. But at the same time also it's like just screening in a concerted way so that they can understand OK, you know what level of recommendations can you go to and what will you go beyond.

So, for example, we did, we built one for a pharmacy and we built it so that it doesn't cross the line into medical recommendations. It will only stay on the side of over the counter stuff, basically. So it will save anything which is crossing that line. You need to talk to a medical professional so you can set the parameters to what you want and how helpful you want it to be. Basically, isn't it Right? Yeah?

Stuart: both active on LinkedIn, and there are LinkedIn services out there, the sales BD type services that charge a lot of money to do the analysis of clients or potential targets, and those services go out there and collect all of this information so that when you make a sales call, you're making it more informed. But the thing that we've just described turning up to a call as you as the individual, with the information from the agent and the analysis around the conversation and the conversational information that comes out from the person answering I mean that's very valuable. By the time you as an individual actually then speak to the person, you know everything.

Aalok: : Because what I find so interesting about this is when I listen to calls with the AI and the person, I can actually get a lot of understanding about what that kind of person, that person is from how they interact with it and at the same time also I can see the full transcript, I can see exactly what the answer they did and I can also see, like my summary, which has the key points of whatever there is within it.

So you have the ability to almost like step the ability to step into their eyes if you want to say that you know, or there is, and have the full analytics of whatever there was, because it's basically a perfect note taker, it's 70% cheaper than an employee that you can read, direct your employees to do more high value tasks and things like this, and you know it's consistently working, doesn't go off script, and then you can also then use data to understand.

Ok, I had these four questions. I'm not getting the kind of answers I wanted back on this. Let me change that question to this question and then let me see how does that come back with my answers or whatever like this. Or we were talking about consistent commitment and consistency and I was saying that if you get someone to say, yes, I do want to be a market leader or yes, I do want to be, that we know we were both saying that there is something physiologically different in the communication of the person saying that versus just taking a box or writing something in a checklist on a box, basically.

So I think, if you make it easy for people to basically just interact with your business by phone and they could just literally just talk their ideas whenever they wanted to even for your book, to be honest, right, you know, like even just to get some of the ideas and stuff like that out then it could almost help them organize their thoughts in a way, isn't it? It could always be a partner where they could just talk when they've got time to do the things and then go from there, basically, isn't it?

Stuart: Actually, you've just blown my mind. This is why I love doing these calls, because it's such an opportunity to kind of spark a thought. We were talking yesterday about the idea of having an agent in our funnel as part of the lead flow. So, from identifying that they're interested in the subject to almost going through the school card methodology or we've got the five book title types methodology and those, both things lend themselves to an agent prompting people through, but actually from existing clients. From the onboarding perspective, the first step in our process is what we call the. I'm forgetting what we call our own forms. Now. Anyway, the first form that we send people on how you've signed up as a client. You're going to talk with Susan or Christie in the first instance, but they send a questionnaire just to get the high level ideas of what your book's about so that they join that call. Yeah, exactly, set that up as an agent to run through and have it as a pre onboarding call.

Aalok: : It could be a resource, and you could have a resource which is would you like to hear an example?

Stuart: So you could be like a so each bit.

Aalok: : if you don't want to hear an example, they can just say what they want, but would you like to hear an example as well? They could add those into the mix as well, isn't it?

Stuart: Yeah, things like scheduling appointments for. Going back to that HVAC example, I mean, we know someone actually connect you afterwards because it's maybe worth having a conversation with them. So they're in a big, healthy home in Tampa, they're a big HVAC and water remediation and they do a lot of that home install type service. They spend a lot of time outreaching to clients just to reconfirm appointments, get the understanding of what the issue was. This would be a perfect example for those guys. And then the call centre people that they've got, like you say, can work on just more high value stuff where there's a lot more discrepancy.

Aalok: : But the other thing is that the agents, like humans, have a one to one capacity that I can call. I can have one conversation at once, right? Right, ai can have multiple conversations in parallel. So 20 people wanted to call it 11 30 AM. 20 people can have that perfect call 11 30 AM, basically, right.

Stuart: So it's to try and synchronize both parties.

Aalok: : You basically AI gives you capacity and it also gives you productivity. So productivity is getting more stuff done. Capacity is getting more volume done, basically right. So it enables you to scale your outreach or your collections or whatever you're going to call it basically in that way, and I just think it's just and it's 70% cheaper than a human right. Right, yes, and it's not exactly.

Yeah, exactly, and it's just like where could you add it in? Which would then add the touch point customer success, customer support, online, asking for reviews, happy customers, different things. There's so many ways that you could leverage it in a nice touch point, isn't there, ian?

Stuart: Yeah Well, we're in a world now that the people I've spoken to and I'm sure the UK is still the same as the US has been over the last year or so post-pandemic the biggest complaint I hear from people is the ability to find staff, or find reliable staff. It's not so much that they're not willing to pay, it's not that they don't have the work for them, it's just that it's very Just short to show yeah.

Aalok: : And some tasks and some businesses have fractional roles where they don't have enough full-time work maybe, but they'd still like somebody good, isn't it Right? And then the question there is I've got three, four hours worth of work a day for somebody, but I can't get someone that would do that, and I want it maybe at the peak time, I don't know 4 PM till 8 PM, to call people, because that's when they would be reached. But how do I reach? So there's all sorts of issues and peculiarities and different things, and even for e-commerce you've got people that checked out but didn't fully check out. You could call them and say was there a reason you didn't finish the order? Can I help you complete the order? Was there something different you were looking for, or whatever like that. I mean, if you've got anything selling of value and you've got lifetime customer value, which is you want to keep them, I think all these things just help increase trust because also, if they're hearing a very articulate voice and explain things, it also increases trust and they actually have support.

Stuart: Yeah, the ability to get someone at the end of the phone, even if, for certain use cases, it's not a real person, it's a pseudo real person.

Aalok: : But you can say that I will pass the message to my team member or my supervisor and they'll be in touch, and then you know that that was sent. Basically right, so it's logged.

Stuart: Yeah, the reliability that the message does get passed on to the right person and that feeling of confidence that it gets somewhere. And if that human is then freed up from some of the more mundane duties so that they have got the ability to call those people back, I mean you know how frustrating it is your phone and leave a message for a company and they just never get back to you. If you can free up that capacity, I mean that makes such a world of difference.

Aalok: : This is better than voicemail. So this is better than a voicemail number one and number two. It's also better than a web form number two and number three. It's almost like a replacement, for it's an interactive, free, recorded message in a way, if you understand that. So it's a much more, but in a much more artful, skillful way, which can actually use some psychology and interact with it, with your customer, the way you want it to.

Stuart: Yeah, get that for an engagement going on sooner in the process. The other example I thought about so this I mentioned Paul and how he could use it in the funnel going from the book to the agent to the appointment or person. But the other example that immediately spun to mind was the realtor's that we work with. One of the big complaints I hear is the zillification of the real estate world and in that scenario people are on Zillow, they're clicking the button to say they want to reach out to someone, but Zillow will send it to multiple agents and it's kind of whoever gets there first. So the agents really feel like they're now on call 24 seven, because that lead goes cold very quickly. Imagine being able to have their agent call on your behalf and hey, it's Eric on behalf of Aalok, so that you're interested in one, two, three main street. Are you able to see it this week, or is it only townhomes you're interested in, or are you working with another agent at the moment?

Aalok: : Yeah, Do you have your mortgage approved already? Is there anything special consideration? Because this property is very popular and whatever it is basically, isn't it yeah?

Stuart: And then wrapping up by saying I'll get Aalok to give you a call back, or pointing people to online resources, or offering to send them a copy of the book.

Aalok: : Or yeah, Well, here's the diary link. You can schedule the thing in right now, basically to visit the place, so you skip a step. Potentially, isn't it Depending on whether the thing is Because it could pre-qualify them in that kind of way? So, hey, can you just? Can you just, can you WhatsApp me or just email me or this, that stuff like that, and then we've got your list as a confirmed buyer on our database or whatever. It is like that, isn't it? Yeah?

Stuart: And that expectation or building the relationship with that person immediately. If another agent then phones them, it's far less likely that they're going to go off. They're going to say I'm working with someone already, so to create that gap between someone raising their hand and establishing that relationship with you, this is the perfect example. I mean, we were talking about having the agents in a different voice, which I guess kind of makes sense, but another use case would be to record it in your own voice. I don't know how practical that is within the system, but yeah, have it in your own voice.

Aalok: : You can have it in any voice Like the voice that we're using right now is actually one of our team members. I like her voice, basically right, so we you know we're using a voice.

Stuart: She was very happy to have that.

Aalok: : And so, but also even accents, right, it's been shown that, like Scottish accents or Irish accents, that proceed is more friendly, and so you can go to a whole other level if you know what your customer avatar is, or this, that, and you're like okay, I want to have a friendly, you know Canadian or you know Midwestern or whatever you want. Basically, you know you can have all that basically.

That level of specificity I mean talk about Dianne and Gheon having a female voice with a Northeast accent Going to the group of people who you know come from that area and Texas accent It'll come more over time, but like level one, you could at least as a mass customization, say, okay, I want to have a Florida accent or whatever like that for my voice, for my business, or whatever like that, and then, and I want it to speak in a rhythm which is going to whatever different cadences and stuff like that. So, so that can be personalized and customized, and so it is almost, you know, in the way you want it.

Stuart: Someone there? Yeah, what about the process? Someone listening to this thinking, oh, this is a great opportunity. I can see where this might sit in the funnel or worth a conversation. Someone a business owner's commitment or how much effort they need to put into. Obviously, it's not just a flicker button in it and it's turned on.

Aalok: : But basically what we provide this service right. So we will work with the business to like, set it up, customize it, all that kind of stuff. So our job is to make sure you've got an AI employee which will answer the phone 24 seven or reach out 24 seven or do what you want, and we would set it up in the role that you wanted for that particular workflow. And our recommendation is start with one in one workflow and then you can have it in that voice and then you know you can use other, you can do other ones in different roles with the same voice or a different voice or whatever you want. Basically, right. So it's however you want to Literally think about it almost like a, that's a you know an agent in that sitting in that chair and they will just do the job. They will just do the job and that task thing and stuff like this. And it's okay, you're the booker, you make, you can you deal with inbound or you call people and you make appointments Great you know somebody else who's been okay.

I'm the confirmer, for example, or I'm the upsellor, or you're coming in tomorrow and I saw that you're booked for this, but did you also want this or did you know? That's a different thing, isn't it right? You know like, so that can be a different. You know, bit like this, so it's just optimizing the workflow. Or you know, you were a customer of ours last year but you've not been back.

I'd like to offer you know, first of all, was there something that we did wrong? You know, get that feedback. And then number two okay, if there wasn't, that's great. Is there something that we can do to get you back? Basically that we've got this new special or whatever like that. But they'll say the same thing every time. They will never be like well, but she Pesh, or this, that like. They will capture the system. And if someone says that and someone says the most, you know I don't know vitriolic feedback. You know, like back. They'll just be polite, say I'm sorry for your experience. You know that it takes the. It almost acts as a frustration buffer. It's like a crumple zone. So it's like. You know you crash into the AIs. So by the time you actually talk to humans, your frustration is gone.

Stuart: And when you think about that as an employee retention point of view, I mean dealing with frustrated clients must be a negative to certain roles, Particularly if it happens a lot. So to be able to take fun pools on that out, I mean that's going to help make the client feel like they're being one of my friends who worked in a GP practice, a doctor practice.

Aalok: : He's got 800 phone calls coming in a day, 800 calls a day and the majority of people cannot get an appointment because it's just not capacity.

And he said they have massive issues with staff members talking to patients rudely.

And also you can say that if staff just burned out, they don't have time, they do different things or they just got new on the job and then you got to go to listen to the calls and understand who talked rudely and there's a whole minefield in that. Versus if you had like first level AI filtering for everything, almost basically, then it'll be like okay, we've got all your details and we will be in touch, you know, within the next 15 minutes or whatever like this. Then you could have some kind of algorithm which is filtering like does the sea merging or not, whatever this and what's that? However, you want to filter a tree are, you can, as long as people know that they're in the loop, they communicated fully and and you can even email them a summary of the call if you wanted to, saying thanks for logging this. And here's a copy of your call. So you've got everything recorded for you, whatever like this and it's been logged, so I think that just adds trust and credibility to you know that level of communication with the business.

Stuart: Basically, yeah, yeah, that's a great point and we talked a lot about the kind of the setup and that first stage, but what you then do with the data and the next stage in the process. I mean there's so many options further down that track. We should perhaps do another, do another podcast to let me down the track and talk about the use cases and how people are really streamlining those processes to make those steps, the processes, to make the whole thing as effective as possible. And so what? I always go too quick in every podcast that I do. It's crazy.

What's the way? Can people find out more? So I really want to give people the opportunity and I think as well really suggest that people just take a second and think about where this can sit in the process, because so often we hear that I have created the book and I've got this setup, but now I don't have time to deal with the rest of it. So from a book perspective or from a day to day business perspective, this is really worth just a second to think about how this could sit in. So where's a good place for people to find more?

Aalok: : Yes, so they can get in touch on LinkedIn, so hopefully you can have my LinkedIn details below there but then also via our website, which is implement AI, so www.implementai.io, and you can get in touch with us there. We work with businesses and we know, both for training their team, but also on transformation programs, and this forms part of what we call our AI Activate Program, where we actually help businesses get kickstarted to become AI transformed and we literally help them implement a particular workflow and we're finding voices very popular at the moment.

Stuart: basically, yeah, such a great opportunity to amplify your message in something that's consistent and really speeds up that process of moving the whole conversation forward. I look always a pleasure if I make sure that your LinkedIn details and the implement AI ones in the show notes so people can just click through and then I'll put a link to the site as well. And really, as people are listening to this, just take a second to think about how it could fit in and then let me know as well. I'm always interested to see how people are using this to amplify their message. So, yeah, let me know how it goes as well.

Aalok: : Thank you very much.

Stuart: No problem, thank you. We will speak again soon. Cheers.

Today on the Book More Show, we are joined again by Heidi Ardis, founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a Mississippi-based financial services company helping people all over the country plan a better retirement.

We got to dive deeper into her story, from a corporate advisor role to starting her own company, and how that gave her the flexibility and time to really understand each of her clients and their unique situations.

The conversation then turned to the opportunity of amplifying her voice and how that underpins her quality client relationships.

In a competitive space like financial advisors, it can be difficult to stand out, but her books, emails, and really all the ways she interacts with people allow her to share her approach and let potential clients say, 'Yes, I want to work with Heidi'.

In a world where the barrier to creating content is getting lower every day, amplifying your perspective is the only way to separate yourself from the crowd.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

EPISODE CHAPTERS

(0:00:01) - Retirement Planning Conversations With Clients

(0:07:10) - Importance of Confidence in Financial Advisors

(0:12:48) - Engaging People in Financial Conversations

(0:19:25) - Written Communication in Financial Planning

(0:23:50) - Engagement and Follow-Up With Clients

(0:32:18) - Leveraging Assets and Orchestrating Referrals

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here and today, excited to be joined back again by Heidi Ardis. Heidi, how are you doing?

Heidi: How are you?

Stuart: Very good. Thank you, I was just saying before we recorded. I still have some kind of COVID. Reign in that time is a flexible elastic band and it seems like it was ages since we spoke, but actually it was only a couple of months, so excited to check in and see how things are going.

Heidi: Things have been going well and, yes, it's that time of year and everybody seems to be sick.

Stuart: Do you know, my folks were across from the UK and we're up in Pennsylvania, the offices down in Florida, my brother's down in Florida as well, so parents managed to survive flights flying in here but get down to Florida and everyone was sick down there. So then the left went back to the UK and people were sick there and it's definitely that time of year in the northern hemisphere.

Heidi: That's correct.

Stuart: yes, yeah, it goes fast, okay, so let's give people a quick update or circle back. Not everyone listens to all of the past shows, so let's start with a quick recap of you and Agape in the business, and then we can go into the book and talk about what's happened since we last spoke.

Heidi: Yep, so I've been in wealth management financial advising since about 2006. And this year, in 2023, opened my own firm, agape wealth, really as a faith based decision to kind of move into the realm of having a business that focused on my faith, family and finance and doing that for my clients. So, in turn, here we are with this, and so one of the things we really focus on here is retirement income planning and distribution of wealth. And how do you do that efficiently for Texas, for estates, and so you know it was recommended to me to write a book on that. So so we did. We wrote the simplified strategies for retirees how to defend and distribute wealth with proper planning and so that led me to the 90 minute books and into you.

Stuart: And here we are. That so 2023. When in this year did you start and prior to that, was it more corporate based financial planning for one of the bigger firms?

Heidi: So this coming started in March of 2023. Prior to that, I had worked in an independent firm for about four years, but before that, yes, was mostly corporate.

Stuart: Yeah, I think it's always an interesting journey that leads people through kind of realises. You hear kind of like a similar story of increasingly more going more and more independent away from the bigger houses, financial visors. It definitely happens for those people who have got that by the kicked out of the nest sometimes, who are kind of drawn to being more independent. I think last time we were talking we were diving a little bit into that benefit of being on your own and stealing your own ship and just having more time for individual clients, relationship based, the opportunity to be more relationship based with people. Kind of eight months down the track now, is that really what you found? You do you get that extra time with people, unlike a bigger firm.

Heidi: Yes, I mean, it has been not only a lifestyle change for me, because you think, when you go to open your own company, that you're going to be busier, and what I have found is that my life in general has gotten better and therefore I'm able to give more to my clients, because if my daughter, who is in you, know soccer and she's on a travel team, if she has a game, I don't have to think about whether I'm going to be able to go or not.

I get to be a part of their lives and, in turn, I want my clients to feel that. And so, yeah, it's been an amazing transition that you know I'm building something that is personally rewarding in terms of my own household, with my kids, who are my son is almost a teenager and my daughter is a teenager, so you know we're in those years. But also we drink coffee together and I tell them I'm like, listen, I am not booking out tons and tons of appointments every day. I have open space throughout the day. If you want to come by and see me, I'm available for you. So they don't feel that I'm not attainable to them.

Stuart: Right. It kind of breaks it from that nine to five. This is office hours in see, we're trying to be flexible both for family and for clients and do what works for them. Such a great opportunity. It kind of disconnects that just arbitrary clock into something that's more kind of flexible. And he says I think people across the board appreciate it more because they're not necessarily just on nine to five customers now. They're just not on nine to five timeframes either. They're just much more used to working or having access to people in a place and and manage it fits them better.

Heidi: Or feeling like they're in, can be their advisor by coming by and wanting to chat with them. You know I don't want people to feel that way and so we've really created that environment and even if I am in a meeting, They'll come in and they'll sit down and you know the girls in the office will go out and hang out and you know they don't feel like their jobs are sitting at their computer. You know their job to be a part of the clients and know who they are.

Stuart: It's so funny, is there when you think back. So I'm out of my 48, so 28 years, 20, 30 years working that kind of timeframe, and I can remember the early jobs before email. I mean even working for pretty big companies back in the time it was really the first job, at least, was pre email. So you think in the cadence of that work and the activities that were done day by day it's definitely not connected to a device. So I think an immediate reply it's much more having that little bit of extra time to deal with things as the day progresses.

Yeah such a better lifestyle choice and more rewarding than being locked in a cubicle for certain Correct.

Heidi: Exactly.

Stuart: So the work and the approach. So the retirement planning and that being a big element of people's interest in financial planning generally, it's obviously their end goal. For most people is they're thinking about it, perhaps after houses, taking care of and as people's, people's interest in financial planning towards that stage, the conversations that you have with clients and their understanding of retirement planning. I'm always interested to people. Are you having conversations with people where they're a knowledgeable audience and it's very technical, or is it going to introduce the ideas to them and almost a holistic, broad perspective, give them the guidance and help steer the ship, but they're not necessarily interested in the technical details, or is it, as I say, more technically oriented and they're kind of diving into the details? What's your experience?

Heidi: with clients they're probably 80 to 85% is more of a holistic, non technical approach, because that would be the population at all. They really just want to know where am I, where are we going and how is it going to function and does it work for my life? So you know, looking at the broader picture, you know we run a lot of reports. Obviously that'll be really in depth, but then it's. You know we're not going to go into those reports. If you want that data or more than happy to give that to you. But really my approach is to show them okay, here's where you're currently at, here's when you want to retire, this is how much you can have in retirement and never run out of money If we do these things, and this is how we're going to draw the income and this is how we're going to live off of it.

And that's what most people are looking for is really just the roadmap. They don't need to know how the internal workings of Google and the Google Maps is. They just want to know that when they put in a destination, they're going to reach it. But then you know there are some clients who are very technical. You know more of the engineers and people of the world, and so with those people, you, as the advisor, need to be knowledgeable enough about what you're presenting to be able to answer their questions and to be able to back it up with the data.

Stuart: That's actually a great point. It's the confidence that people are looking for. There's a certain expectation, I think, that everyone no matter whether they're a doctor or marketing company or financial advisor there's the expectation that everyone's got when working with someone that you know your job and you can do the outcome. I think that having confidence and the personal connection that you're the right person and of all the people that they could choose, they're happy and comfortable that they've chosen you. So being able to not necessarily start off with those details but have them there to hand if people question and drill down, that really kind of bridges that gap between not getting stuck in the weeds and scaring the majority of people away, but also providing that value and guidance and helpful resource for the people, no matter what their level is, either the introductory or the detailed.

Heidi: Yeah, I think it's probably the number one biggest problem in this industry is that financial advisors do not know what they are doing, and most of them are just doing what they're told. They don't research for themselves, they just trust that when their owner of the company or the owner of the corporation says here's this what you should sell or here's what you should do because this person's 35 or 45 and they have this much money, and you know, they put everybody in a box and they don't go out and read the contracts or look through the data for themselves and truly understand what they're doing. And then when they have that hard client that starts asking them questions, they can't answer it and so but that's probably a lot of people in the world they just kind of they're told.

Stuart: Right, I just kind of I don't know if this is insulting or derogatory, but I was going to say it's kind of like the paycheck mentality of just going in and doing a job and I'm here to just follow the instructions and not necessarily have the interest or the exploratory nature to go in and find out what the real situation is behind the scenes.

Heidi: I wonder if that's self-selecting About money, so you can make a lot of money and not really have to work as hard.

Stuart: And so that's what I'm saying Self-selecting across the kind of people who are in those financial advisors versus the independent guys who are more interested in the subject and not just executing on paycheck and rolling through clients within a small window and then just getting on to the next one.

Heidi: Yeah, and there's even independent firms. That I think it's a problem, because you have a large independent firm and you got, you know, seven or eight or nine advisors in one office and then it becomes pretty similar to a corporate office. Right, that's true, so you know it's like you just really, as someone who are out searching for the right person, need to make sure that you are confident in the person sitting in front of you, that they are knowledgeable.

Stuart: Yeah, do you find that with clients who come in? Is the clients understand that problem and know the challenges of working with someone who's just kind of a cookie cutter trying to put them in the mold, or are they more coming in and kind of expressing a dissatisfaction maybe not getting the personal attention that they need? What am I trying to ask, kind of like from the client's perspective? Do they know what the problem is or do they just have a feeling that it's not quite working with other places?

Heidi: I think it's both. I think they feel like they're trying to communicate with their current advisor, or they've sat down with a few people and they're just not feeling like that person's giving them what they need. But also they may not be able to pinpoint exactly why or what that is, but they just kind of know that something's not right. But then they also people don't like saying no. So then you know you're sitting in an office and you're like well, these people have a thousand clients, like what's wrong with me?

Stuart: that I don't have a good fit.

Heidi: But just because a firm has a lot of clients or has a big operation does not mean that they are good at their jobs, I mean, or that they're going to give you a one on one personalized financial plan. It just means that you know they've done good. I mean, walmart brings in a lot of clients Doesn't mean that they're the best place to go.

Stuart: Right, it's such a great point, isn't it? People's kind of perception of, well, everyone is the crowd mentality, everyone else is doing this. It must be me, not them. I think the other thing, kind of being on the side of, I might have mentioned last time my background is in IT for financial services organizations. So there was a period of time that I was doing the financial services authority in the UK would do some financial education workshops in and around the country. I did some in London.

So we go into workplaces and then talk to a group of 15 or 20 people just about some of the basics nothing too in depth, but even trying to talk about so savings accounts, the IRA equivalents in the UK, pensions generally, just the fact that employers might be matching contributions and the certain restrictions, but the main different definitions of defined contribution and defined benefit plans. Even at that relatively straightforward level we try to keep it easy to consume. You can still see people glazing out because, although technically it's not complicated, I don't know whether it's a lack of confidence for people and they just feel like this is a complicated thing and I can't handle it, I'm not equipped, or whether it's a lack of interest and it's too scary or daunting and they almost put in the shutters up. Do you find that as well, talking to your clients, or your clients tend to be more engaged because they are looking for someone with a more personal connection and an educated view on things.

Heidi: So what I have found is generally, especially if people are married, one is very engaged and the other one is completely non engaged. So it's like if you're sitting in front of a group of 15 people, maybe three or four of them are going to be really paying attention and the rest of them are thinking, well, my spouse does that, or this isn't something that I need to worry about right now, and or I'm terrible with money, so I'm not even going to listen, because it's this internal struggle of well, I'm not going to do it right anyway.

Stuart: So I'm not even going to try, it's not even trying.

Heidi: So I think that if know what I try to do, especially because normally you know, I live in South Mississippi, so normally the male is the one who runs the finances, and I just think that's just kind of like a generational thing, where the guy works and the wife works, but not necessarily on the same level or whatever, and so the man will come in and he just thinks he's going to dominate the conversation of what we're going to do.

And this is where we're going, and for me it's extremely important to engage the wife. Listen, more than likely he's going to die first, based on data and statistics, and then this is going to be on you. Even though you may not feel it's important, it's going to be important to you. So we at least want you to be engaged in the conversation, know what we're doing and why it's for your benefit, so that, because we do have a lot of males around here, especially we have a lot of military bases, so there's a lot of pensions and we need to make sure, if there's not a full survivorship benefit, how are we going to make up for that? So I think you need to engage those people that do not feel that this is their problem or are uncomfortable, because in doing that you really are able to make the dynamic of the conversation and the plan better.

Stuart: And, as you say, particularly with those statistics on who's likely to be the surviving spouse. It's very real. I often think that we moved house two years ago and there's kind of bits and pieces of things I've done around the house that I know where the switches are and the breakers are, and even just the physical incarnation of if anything happened to me. There was that sudden realization that I need to make sure that Lucy knows where all of the skeletons in which closets are hidden and where the switches are. From a financial perspective, even more so because it's such a real and can be complicated thing to sort out at the moment of a painful event, of trying to deal with all of the life elements of a spouse passing just to make sure you've got your docks in your row and at least you know the person to go and speak to, which your personal connection with people. Again, that's just adding to that, adding to that service that you provide or the support that you provide for people.

Heidi: Yeah, and with the baby boomers. I mean, we're in a generation where they are now dealing with this on a level from their own parents, who their parents did not necessarily talk to them about money or any financial situation. So their parents pass away and then it's them trying to figure it all out, and so it's a good conversation to have. Are you having these conversations with your spouse? Are you having these conversations with your own children? Not that you have to tell your children specifically how much money they're going to inherit, but are you having the conversation? Hey, if something happens to me or your mom, reach out. This is our financial advisor, this is who we deal with. This is our lawyer, whoever the person is, so that they know who to contact and who has the plan. That it's not all on them, because when someone does pass away, it becomes this big burden on the family if they have no clue what's going on.

Stuart: Yeah, to try and dig through the details at that moment and with all of the conflicting reckons that people have of what conversations they've had with people in the past, it just makes it so difficult the ideas that we've brought together in the book.

So the simplified strategies, the simplified retirement strategies, those starting points for the conversations I was this week's coincidentally been a week of podcast, so I was just recording with someone yesterday and the conversation we were having there was around the fact that the asset now exists. It's a jumping off point for many conversations. So, even if the subject specifically isn't mentioned in the book, it's still the opportunity to use the book as a backup piece, as a as a deeper dive or as a broader context piece. Now that it's been out there for a period of time and you've used it in different ways, do you find that actually I've got a cover let me just make sure that people know what we're talking about. So the cover's up on the screen there for people watching rather than listening. So do you find that now that the book is out there, that there's more opportunities to use it and refer to it then perhaps, when you first were thinking about creating it?

Heidi: Yeah, actually, you know, I've had clients who are existing clients, who come in and they're like, hey, I really want my kids to have your book. And they've actually been coming in and getting them. Or, you know, you can download them from our website, agapewealthcom. But because of that, they're getting their kids now actively engaged in their conversations, because they're like, look, you know, this is my advisor. These are some of the things that she thinks are important and one of those is, you know, starting early. So if you have a client who's 50 and they got kids in their 20s or early 30s, it's a, it's an opening, that dialogue for them. It's also made it where you know people are actually downloading the book and then they're reaching out to us and say, hi, I'd like to come in for a meeting. So it's done that for us as well. But I think it's also with existing clients, given them a level of confidence that you know, while she put these things in writing, she obviously means what she's done.

Stuart: I think that as well, that psychological cues that it gives people. It's not something that we talk about I don't think we talk about it that much but the fact that people will get a copy and then, even if they don't read it word for word or understand it word for word, it still gives them the indication of the direction that you're trying to guide people. And then when they come in and meet you face to face and you're saying the same things, it almost has an amplified power because they're not hearing it from you for the first time. It's almost the fact that what you're saying is reinforcing what they read in a book, even though it's your book. So I think that reinforcement is such a powerful, subliminal element to the fact that people are writing something in the way that they say things, in the way that they believe in the structure, that it really does reinforce it.

And the other thing that you've said that was interesting as well is this idea that it starts other conversations, so with the one person in the relationship being more interested than another, using it to kind of highlight or point out or use that as an introduction to a conversation with a partner or, as you're saying with the kids, introducing the idea to the kids that they want to start early, and there's such a big advantage and this idea that it can be a jumping off point for a conversation and an easy way in just really is a huge advantage to the equivalent of trying to do it. I mean, you could put the same words on a page on a website, but that doesn't have the same authority or it doesn't communicate the same meaning or it doesn't give the opportunities for those conversations in the same way. So let me think about it. Now it exists, it's got an extra benefit.

Heidi: Yep, and I think it has helped you know, just solidify that. One of the main focuses of the book was to empower you as the individual to ask questions of people, get more than one opinion, make sure you're confident, and it also gives you some strategies for those conversations. Hey, if I'm your client, will I be getting X? You know, the point of the book for me at first was really to empower people to ask questions and to be able to say no and understand that this is your money. You know your money. Even though you're entrusting me to guide you, at the end of the day, you have the right to say I don't think this is working, and you shouldn't be embarrassed by that and you should not ever feel guilty for being honest with the person that's working with you.

Stuart: Right, particularly when there's such an important outcome at the end of it. I mean, this is people's for the most part. I think this is people's one main shop. They may have other assets elsewhere. The house is obviously a big asset for some people, but in terms of disposable income to support you through the rest of your life, these decisions made around here, it's not something that ideally you just kind of give away and never think about again and turn up at the end and hope that it all worked because it would be great if it did. But if it didn't then the ship sailed a little bit. So good to check in with.

This idea of having clients who are in it for the long run and maybe aren't as enthusiastically engaged with the subject you mentioned before, about this whole raft of reports that you could share with people, some of which might seem overwhelming. Do you have a feel for what's the right level of information, or have you been able to bundle it together in a way that's easy for people to consume and then, of course, give them more details if they want it? But at least at that first level, in the review meetings that you're doing with people in the check-ins, is there a way that you feel like you've come up with that way of positioning it at the right level so that it is comfortable for them?

Heidi: Yeah, so we have an actual app that people have access to on their phone where all their accounts, whether it be with different companies or wherever they are, can link. You can even link your own personal stuff, so your bank account or your mortgage. You can put all your stuff in one place. And so that particular app, I can go in and we can update your plan. Or you can even go in and do what-if scenarios what if I purchase the camper, what if I want to buy a new house or a second home and it'll help you along the way and so and it's pretty user-friendly. So we have that for our clients, which they like. People like stuff on their phones, but also when you come in.

You know I'm not giving you some hundred-page report. We're going over one or two pages of you know. Here's where we were last year. Here's where we are this year, based on what we predicted last year. Are we on track? And if the answer is yes, has there been any changes that we need to be aware of? You know, until we update, and some people want to come in once a year. Some people want to come in, you know, every three months. Some people want to call me every month, you know, but it just kind of depends on your level of engagement. But for those people that you know, don't really they're like, please just take this and do it. We still are going to make you at least come in once a year At least.

Look at it, you know over the finances and say, hey, here's where we are, things are looking. Okay, you know, let's stay on track. Do you need more money? Do you need less money? How are things feeling? And so we try to keep it simple.

Stuart: Yeah, we often talk with people about you mentioned that people downloading the book and then it's showing employment kind of independent of any other any other action on the team's part. But we often speak to people about when they think about creating a book. Is that path through? So, talking about those reports and the experience that people have when they are clients, always trying to look for ways of replicating that in that journey when people are self selecting themselves. So illustrations are something which is big in the UK for financial planners but they're pretty restricted on what you can show and of dubious value. Sometimes it gets a little bit same. But those people who opt in for a copy of the book and then you have their email details, do you have a follow up sequence with them so that they are receiving additional things until they the points right for them that they raise their hand, or is it a pretty short path where they're downloading a copy and then just coming in pretty quick?

Heidi: Well, I mean typically, if you're downloading the book, well, you're putting in your name, your email address, your phone number and then there's a comments section, and so most of them are asking at that point for us to reach out.

Stuart: Yeah.

Heidi: So, but if they don't, if they just download it and all they do is give us their information, then we will email them thanking them for downloading the book and let them know. We'll call them in a week or so to see how they liked it and if they would like to set an appointment at that point. The next step?

Stuart: yeah, do you have. It's super interesting actually that people are requesting it and a meeting in that they're like immediately thinking about taking that next step. I think that's probably.

Heidi: We had two just in the last week that downloaded it and requested meetings at the same time.

Stuart: Actually that's super interesting.

So the majority of time that we're talking to people, we're talking about those digital downloads in a kind of name address, download it and then follow up with an email sequence and, within that email sequence, make some offers then or suggestions that they take next step and come in.

But wording the form that includes a comment or which area you're most interested in or what can we help you with or what you're struggling with, adding that as a field to the form, might well be an accelerator to that journey, which I'm going to start stealing and I'll give you credit for the idea. But yeah, that is really something that we haven't. I don't think. I mean, I know some people do it, but it's definitely not something that we talk about because we're really thinking about this longer term. But maybe the expense of those people who are immediately ready to go now, for those ones who are immediately ready to start or respond to something when you reach out, it's the first step that they really need to come in. There isn't really a self-serving step in between coming in. Is the first interaction meaningful interaction? Really they need to have a meeting with you as an impersonal on Zoom to actually go through some numbers, or is it more of a kind of theoretical conversation where you're just talking about general direction?

Heidi: So the first conversation is typically with one of the other people that work in the office and they're contacting them, asking them questions that you know and then that kind of prompts would you like to have a meeting with Heidi and the advisor to discuss your concerns? You know, and we can either set that up as a phone call or a Zoom or an in-person meeting. You know whatever they want. We have a lot of clients that are out of state, so they usually will do a Zoom meeting. So for us I think it's kind of just contacting them and saying, hey, well, we know you've read the book or you've done the book. You know what was that about it, that you had concerns, questions, comments, that kind of thing, and so that's one of the team members that will do that, and then after that they'll set a meeting with me.

Stuart: Yeah, you mentioned that out of state ones we were. I think we were talking last time about the military families because of that kind of disbursement effect of people getting relocated, redeployed elsewhere. How much of a challenge is it, or is it no challenge at all? The difference between those local clients versus the remote ones? Is it pretty seamless? Or is there a difference in approach, apart from the fact they're not going to pop in?

Heidi: So I think the only differences we need to be more actively engaged a little bit in terms of when they do become a client, that process of when the money's transitioning, because that can be a four to six week process. So if you don't have any interaction, you know physically, and you've never, like actually sat down with a person in person, sometimes that can be a little scary. So I think keeping those people a little bit more actively engaged you know, making phone calls and making sure that we're more engaged on the process of hey, everything's fine. You know this is just a process, it takes a little bit of time for transitions to happen would be mainly the difference. But other than that, you know we try to keep things pretty much the same.

Stuart: And such a great point of identifying where those pain points are ahead of time and kind of getting ahead of the curve, because I can imagine that scenario where people are busy doing other things and then they're transferring a significant amount of their future and then crickets from other organizations or this is just what it is. We're getting in touch with you and it's all sorted out. And knowing those ahead of time and kind of smoothing the path again. It's just that difference between being a number in a big accounting system versus being an individual that you're working with and building that relationship.

Heidi: And that's probably the one thing that we're very good at is getting to people's pain before they ever communicate it, you know, and letting them know. We understand we've been through this before. But if you are ever feeling uncomfortable in any way, reach out. You know. Don't feel like we're not able to be attainable in the same day or within the same hour of when you are feeling something. Don't ever let that fester. Just call up and you know we'll make sure to go over any and everything with you.

Stuart: Yeah, put your mind at ease as quick as possible. As soon as the thought or concern is there, get it sorted out.

Heidi: Yeah, because it's scary, you know, I mean yeah whether you got a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars or five million dollars, you know that's all relative to the individual and what matters to them, and so you're moving someone's life savings. That's a scary process for them.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah, 100%. The money is 100%, no matter what the actual dollar amount. One of the conversations that I had earlier this week was talking about using the book, since slightly using it as that asset, but then topic bridging into it. So we talked earlier about using it, the fact that it exists now it's kind of finding its own way out into the world in different ways.

But this idea of topic bridging from the conversations that are out there to the subjects that are in the book. So the example that springs to mind with your client groups, the kind of local people and the military people, their interests there's a commonality obviously in the products and the services and what you're trying to do for them, but there there's a certain amount of their motivations and their restrictions or constraints that are pretty different. But the subject of the book kind of covers both of those. If you had opportunity, if someone is coming in with a specific set of questions, for example the military families, where they're dealing with the different agencies that they have to work with and how that ties in with their retirement elements have there been opportunities to create other assets, yet other talking points around those pain points, but then bridge it into the book. So reaching out to groups where that's a problem and then talking about the book as a thing.

Heidi: Yeah, I would say the majority of that kind of stuff, whether it be military or even college professors, teachers, firefighters they're all dealing with some sort of governmental agency which is not always the easiest people to work with. And so letting them know hey, we've worked with them multiple times, we know how to fill the paperwork out. Please just bring it by, we'll do it together. It'll make the process a lot simpler and we can log into whatever the system is, and then also saying hey, by the way, if you're in the military and you're going to move your TSP account, your wife or your husband, they have to sign off on that. So they're going to get an email, they have to agree to the transfer because it's a communal asset and them knowing that we know these things before they're going to happen, you know, builds the confidence and you know, same thing in the book, we kind of talk about that. You know, letting your asking questions of your advisor and seeing if they know how the process is really going to function and whether they understand those things.

Stuart: I wonder if there's opportunities and again, it's always a balance of the effort versus the reward but being able to do things like a simple web page that you could point the military families to that has a video of you talking about some of the military specific differences. And then so, by the way, the next step, download a copy of the book, because that covers some of the broader strategies and things that you need to be asking people. But all of these things, now that the main asset exists, just kind of like feeding the top of the funnel with something specific. Again, just to make that connection, the book exists now, so all of these extended ways of using it and leveraging it again, effort versus reward, but for those bigger groups of communities, might well be my goal can't speak might well be worth following on something like that.

Heidi: And then create even like a video blog on the website that would talk specifically to those groups.

Stuart: Yeah, because I think it just it closes that gap even one more step. So it's probably not worth I mean, it might be at some point in the future but it's not worth today creating a whole other book for that particular funnel, but just to be able to to top and tail it slightly with something that's specific. It's yeah, just trying to leverage those assets as much as possible and then the best. So companies set up in March, the relationships you've got with those people who were early clients, from guessing to a certain degree came from previous relationships, but those early clients into the new clients and so it was that in terms of referrals and people's willingness to share your service with other people, has that been an easy conversation and obvious thing that people are doing, or is that a little bit? Is there any resistance from people because they are talking about finances and it's maybe they're not comfortable with it?

Heidi: Actually, I would say about 90% of my business is coming from referrals and that is because when someone comes in and they actually feel comfortable and confident in their person, they're telling other people about it. So you know they're calling me up, hey, I told my friends they'll be calling. Or you know it's not even me prompting the conversation most of the time. My clients are now prompting those conversations with me and if they don't, then I'll just say you know, hey, if you know anybody that could benefit from you, just let me know and they'll be like yeah, you know so, and so I would say that the bulk of my business and the growth is referral based and that's just because people enjoy.

You know what we're doing. It's different.

Stuart: Right, yeah, great service and a great team and they're feeling comfortable and happy to make that connection Right. We often talk about this idea of kind of orchestrating referrals in a friendly way that adds value and doesn't just start with asking for referral, which is a little bit asking, rather than taking the ideas that in the book and the communications that you're sending out with those people there's probably opportunities through the year, end of year tax planning, kids going off to college, all of these kind of like financial milestones that are likely to happen out there, the email communications that you send out saying this event's happening, these things are happening. We come up to this particular milestone, if you hear anyone talking about it. Actually, we've got a great chapter that covers this in the book. Happy to send you a copy to give to them. So the topic bridging type ideas and reminding them that the orchestrated referral opportunity exists Again, the book exists. It's just a friendly giving way of accelerating that conversation. Yeah, hopefully business comes from it.

Heidi: Yeah, I think it makes it an easier way If you're going to give your friend a book and say, hey, this is my advisor, read this and then tell me what you think, and then it just kind of opens that dialogue with them too, so that it's not daunting for people. You know, it's not a 500 page book on finance, so and we tried to make the concepts in there very attainable and not overly complicated things so that people felt that they could understand it.

Stuart: And that's such a fantastic point because I think sometimes people thinking they're thinking in a traditional book sense and that something that is 500 pages on a shelf needs to be some academic tone of how much information that they know, which, as I say all the time, the job of work of the book, the purpose of the book isn't to sell a book, is to start a conversation, and if you can encourage that conversation by people feeling good about it and that they're not, they don't feel stupid or they don't feel overwhelmed, it's just the easy next step towards the thing that needs to happen, which at some point is a conversation.

So I think as well, even if people don't necessarily try to don't let their egos get in the way and they're trying to write it just to share everything that they do, sometimes they undervalue the basics that they've kind of taken for granted years ago. Because we're in the business and typically as business owners, we're dealing with a more complicated end of the spectrum, because the simple end takes care of itself. It's easy to overlook that a lot of people's questions are at the simple end and not at the complicated ends, because that's where they are in their journey.

Heidi: So I mean, think about it from our own perspective and life. If you're going to go to the doctor, I mean, do you know what's in the medical journals? Probably not, yeah, so, as the doctor, if they're coming in the room and all they're doing is vomiting out all of this data and stuff, that you have no clue what they're talking about, and then when they're fitting you, when you leave out there feeling like, well, I'm stupid, so it's not beneficial for the client, the patient you know you as the individual to make it complex. So, you know, just speak on people on the level in which they're at, and if they are on a higher level than those, conversations will come about later.

Stuart: That's the great point. They'll naturally go like understanding where in the journey, where in the front, you're speaking with them and those are other elements and naturally either going to quickly come out, and it can accelerate down that route, or they'll come out over time and it's unnecessary at this stage.

Heidi: Yes, exactly.

Stuart: Such a great conversation same as last time. The time went so fast. I just did the same, where I want to make sure that people can find out more about what you guys are doing, either from just from an interest to see what you're doing or specifically for people looking for more tailored one on one financial device. Where's the best people play? It's definitely time to wrap up, because my tongue stopped working. The best place that people can go to find out more?

Heidi: So our website is agapewealthcom. There's a lot of good information, including the book on the website talks about who we are. We have a video mon talk of me talking about you know who we are as an organization on there, as well as some bios of the people that work here. You know. It also has some strategies and things like that on the website where you can see some of the things that we do here in the office and it'll also give you our information where you can come in or set an appointment or set up a call with us to meet with me and kind of discuss those things.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, as always, we'll make sure we put the links in the show notes, so, whether people are listening to the or watching the video on the website or on the podcast player, the links will just be below so people can get straight through. Heidi, thank you so much. We've recorded this just in the week before Christmas, so really appreciate taking the time and driving some of your attention before it switches back to the family completely. Yes, then the and then we'll go live. I think we're a couple of weeks out, so this will be one of the first episodes in 2024, so I think it'll be great to check back in sometime later in the year and see how things are going, and perfect.

Heidi: Merry Christmas and happy new year to you.

Stuart: Yeah, thank you. You too. Everyone, thanks for listening and watching along again. I hope you had a fantastic Christmas. We're excited to help more of you write more books in 2024 and get some of the engagement that Heidi's been getting. Thanks everyone. We will speak soon and have a great holiday.

Today on the Book More Show, we’re talking about the father-son mortgage team of Scott and Zach Asbell.

With decades of combined experience, they share some great stories about building their family business, navigating fluctuating housing markets, and the importance of trust in client relationships.

This is where their books shine, as they give the opportunity to start the conversation by helping people first.

Their latest book, ‘Own a Home Cheaper Than Rent’, born from Zach’s personal experience, does just that by providing real insights into the possibility of owning a home for a generation who believe it’s out of reach.

Scott and Zach share some great insights into tailoring content to attract and maintain long-term interest, and we also touch on the transformational impact of having written a book as Zach reflects on the recognition of his work.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book more show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Zach and Scott Asbell. Guys, how are you doing? This is going to be an exciting show because we know each other a little bit. We've kind of got to know each other through the book process and even before, because you guys know Dean. So I think our paths have crossed in that way and you're in that kind of by-and-by-through-all only type world. So the kind of circles are crossing over. But for everyone else out there, give a bit of a background on the world we usually just have. We often just have one guest, so give a bit of a background on the relationship, but then also what you guys do out there in Utah.

Scott: Well, we are a father-son team. We've been in the mortgage business it's almost like a family business for over 30 years now and it's just been fantastic. Zach and I run a branch here in Utah and our company services clients in 42 different states and we're just all about helping people and doing the right thing. We know that if we do the right thing over time, the business will come.

Stuart: Zach, were you in the business straight out of school or did you kind of go another path and then come back to working together?

Zach:: Yeah, right after I graduated with a business management degree. I ended up going a different path for about six to eight months and then Scott and I got to talk and we're like, hey, actually this might be a good fit, and so the more we dove into it. I started doing certain marketing elements for Scott and then, as we go further in, it's like, well, I better get licensed because it's just the path that at least you kind of a thing.

Stuart: It's such a nice. We've had a couple of family run businesses on the show before and then clients who we've worked with have been in a similar situation either husband and wife or parent and child and I always have a little bit of envy or jealousy because I'm obviously in the US now family's back in the UK, although my brother's over here and we get to work together, which is fantastic. But the occasions where I've had a chance to work closer with parents not in a business sense but on projects or family projects or something around the houses that opportunity just to spend that much, I don't even know if I'd describe it as quality time, but almost the incidental time. We're not just having that relationship in the peak moments, but just day to day through life. So always it's a great pleasure and privilege to talk to people like you who are in that situation, who get to share that time. And I think that comes through in the book as well as the stories brought together and seeing you guys go through the process, knowing how closely you're aligned. It's really interesting to see that come together and then present itself in the pages.

So, with that being said, I'm going to jump in ahead a little bit. Let's quickly cover who your clients are. So, as people are listening to this, we've obviously got many different business owners who are thinking about writing a book for their business or who have done and are thinking about ways of using it. Describe quickly you mentioned that you're in Utah but work across 42 states. How is that in term of remotely kind of connecting with those people, both at the top of the front of the first base and then as you work with them?

Scott: Yeah, that's a good question. So majority of our referrals as you mentioned already, stuart are referrals that come from clients, because we have a 3,000 client database that we've accumulated over 30 years and then a few real estate agents that we like that do business the way we do, that send us business. So it's very little advertising and that's great because those people come to us with a high level of trust. Already, the clients that we're specifically looking for would be people who want to purchase a one-to-four family property, either as an investment property or to live in on their own. And what's really happened and the reason this book came to light purchasing a home has gotten trickier over the last few years. Prices have gone up, rates have gone up. How can you still justify purchasing a home and make it work with the family's budget?

And we were sitting there thinking, gee, you know what everyone needs to do, what Zach's doing.

This is like Zach:'s story, like.

This is a real life story of how he bought his first house, what he did, how he turned it into a rental, how he went and bought his next house, how that worked, what the numbers look like, what was his real payment for two homes rented the old house rented the basement on the new one.

Then, when he went to buy the third house, it really became his story and has become such a popular strategy I'm going to say nationwide to the point where even a lot of, let's say, the state of Utah just in recent times has come out and said hey, we're going to open the gate a little wider and we're going to encourage and allow people to have ADUs accessory dwelling units, in their basement, because we have a serious housing issue and we have to find a way to create more housing for more families. So, as this is happening from a political side, we're also having the tried and tested strategy of how to make this work so you can buy a home with an ADU and literally have a house payment that's cheaper than you would if you were to rent. So that's kind of the big picture of what that looks like.

Stuart: It's such an interesting challenge, I think, the jewel kind of the conflicting or most jewel elements of costs, increasing affordability, getting more difficult wages, not necessarily keeping up well, not at all keeping up with that inflation, and then add interest rate changes on top of it. So looking for what some people might be very creative ways of achieving it. But, Zach, I guess this was your experience as well. Once you've been through it, once it's not as difficult as it might seem that there's a certain amount of unknown unknowns. But once those become known unknowns or unknown, known to whichever way around it is, then it becomes a little bit more straightforward. So your experience, was it intentionally moving down that path from the first property to the third property and beyond relatively quickly, or was it kind of like organic development? And now, as you look back, it's a very kind of um with the plan that someone else can follow it?

Zach:: was very intentional. Like when I look back at the first property, we knew going into that property, man, we're probably going to be here 12 to 12. 24 months Granted, with COVID happening that bumped it up to 12 months and we said, hey, you know, let's move to the next house. But I mean, as we look at it too, like the fun part about it is just seeing the compounding effect of getting that first home and moving to the second one we still have the same principal pay down and everything like that. But then to see the rents evolve over the last four or five years and just all those little things that add up to where now, looking back five years, saying, wow, that was a good time to buy that specific property. And you know, had we had the opportunity to go back, we might have even strategized a little bit differently.

The thing I like about this book is if I had this book back when I was buying my first property, it would have probably saved me a year or two on certain elements of it. As far as just the learning curve, like you're talking about, stuart, like when you go to rent that first time, you kind of know the gist of it, what you're looking for, but it's not really outlined. And that's the beauty of this book is it just takes all of the detail and combines it into 105 pages and says, hey, here's your you know quick guide of just how would we do it if we were to do it again. Right, and so that's the beauty of it.

Stuart: I think that's the element as well. I've got the cover here that just get it up on screen for people watching along. I love the. I love all our covers and the work that they're doing to obviously invested interest in loving them. But the thing I really like about this is it's so straightforward and clear and gives people an idea of what the content is, even just from seeing it as it passes by and, I guess, from a referral strategy or backing up the referral strategy those people who you work with, who know trust, you're ready, who know the type of work that you can do.

This is a very easy way of bridging that conversation into a non, non aggressive or non threatening. But it's an easy way for people to say oh, this is the book that Zach and Scott is talking about. I actually know someone who this is a perfect fit for the exact same situation that I was in. We were talking just before we started recording and mentioned that our oldest is 25 and is in a situation where buying isn't really a conversation that they're thinking about very much because they just see it as unachievable. But something like this is very easy for me to take this and pass it to them and it introduces the concepts and maybe starts the conversation in a slightly different way and then leads to obviously, the next step is speaking with you guys. So that referral strategy, writing it as something that other people, an easy way for other people to give and share what you do Was that the thought process from the start or was it more? Let's write it because this is a fantastic idea and worthwhile and then see how we can use it afterwards.

Zach: I'd say that, scott and I, when we go into consultation, there are certain elements of this book that will include, but it'd be hard for us to have a consultation unless it was going to be a two to three hour consultation that encapsulates all of the information. And so that's one of the beautiful things about the book is we're catching the prospect up to speed so that by the time we get into that consultation, it's a much different conversation versus hey, let's catch you up on this two to three hour lesson about why does house hacking make sense right now? What are the benefits of it from a tax perspective, all the way to getting into that next home a lot sooner, that specific neighborhood that you want to. And so that's the biggest thing that I love about the book is now, when we're going to be going into those consultations. The buyer's already caught up to speed and we're now having a very more tactical conversation to say, okay, we're at X, how do we get to Y?

Stuart: Right, such a great point, scott. Your experience having been in the business for longer, that's getting people up to speed. How much of a challenge was that in the early days? Did you find a lot of the conversations before things like this were available?

Scott: Were doing that again everyone on the same page to then have a conversation from yes, definitely, because we are so focused on education that I wonder if sometimes in the past we actually overdone it, as a client sitting in the office and we're an hour and a half into education and they start to doze off. We've overdone it. But I realize that's an exaggeration, but really, yeah, there's so many pieces of the foundation that we want our clients to understand and have in place so they can make really smart financial decisions, of which purchasing a home is one of those major decisions that we do. We spend a lot of time educating.

So is right on the money, that more education we can do before they come to sit with us, and the more people were able to help, the better prepared they are to come in with the right questions that they've sat on and thought about for a few days or weeks prior to our meeting. But you know, if somebody wants to come in and start from scratch, we'll do it and we probably break it into a couple of different consultations, because just this piece right here that's talking about Teaching someone about what are the pros and cons of a house hack Does it even work for you and your family? That could easily be a 45 minute conversation and we haven't even been able to run numbers yet or say well, how much house could you qualify for or what would this look like if you were to do it? So yeah, the more we can bring people up to speed so that they show up at the conversation with really good questions, thinking how's that going to apply to me and does it really work? That's where we want them to be.

Stuart: It's such an interesting point and I have the same challenge. I think all of us business owners have the same problem. I mean, the majority of us are doing what we do because we love what we do. We've got a passion for the industry, for the business. So wanting just to be able to take out that chip from your brain and put it in someone else's head so that they've got the same vision or the same understanding of what their outcome could really be is very difficult not to just want to enthusiastically share all of that with them.

I was recording with Bob Mangold just yesterday as we record this, it'll be the show that goes live, the one in the sequence before this one and we were talking about the principle of a conversation starting book rather than a traditional book, and one of the elements is the outcome is you want to be in conversation with someone, either on Zoom or in person, bridging that gap between where they're coming from and hearing the words that are coming out of your mouth.

Once they get that one-on-one conversation, the fact that the conversation starting book is written in such a way that does communicate your methodology, your words, your approach, the language that you use, the way that you describe something. It just moves the real-life conversation, the one-on-one conversation, on so much faster because they've already got an appreciation of the things that you're saying and the way that you say them. Otherwise they wouldn't reach out for that call. It's almost like a sifting and sorting mechanism into if this resonates and then they make that connection with you. The connection that you have is stronger than if they just walked through the door and hadn't had any of that context in the first place.

Scott: Right, you know, Zach, what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do the house hack? Because it's not the only thing we do, it's just one of the many strategies and, as we sit down, you could do this, you could do that, and it's definitely not right for everyone, but what percentage of clients would you say are opting to do?

Zach: this Right 25 to 30% right now is what we're seeing.

Scott: So that's a sizable portion of the market here in Utah, as people are trying to find affordable housing. And, like Zach referred to before, one of the things that we have to understand is well, you could have a single-family residence for a condo-sized payment. Right, let's show you how that works. Or, like Zach mentioned before, you could move into the neighborhood that you eventually want to be in that is your dream neighborhood Maybe 10 years earlier than you could normally get in. By doing the house hack that's going to allow you to get into that neighborhood, get established, rent the basement. As your family grows, your income's also increasing. Now you can take over the basement too and get rid of the renters. So, like we said, it just doesn't work for everybody, but for those that it does, it's the difference between getting a house right now and not getting a house, so it's a really big deal.

Stuart: Right and, as you say, 25, 30 percent of the market is a significant business in its own right and I like the idea of a kind of a campaign approach to everything that you do. This book is the top of a funnel, a campaign funnel that is addressing that market. But for the people who it's not a good fit for whether they self-select that it's not a good fit, having just read the book or as a result of a meeting they're now in your world and you can present them with other, more traditional offers or offers that are a better fit. So again, this breaking away from the traditional book sense to a conversation, starting book sense if you think about it in terms of a campaign that then leads to the broader offering and more tailored offering. It's not that the book is trying to convert people or convince them that this is the right thing for them to do, and then they go away and do it themselves. It's the first step into a conversation where the answer might be a house hack solution or it might be something else, but now they know you, now that they're in your world, you've got a chance to have that conversation and again, from a referral perspective, it's very easy for other people in your world to make that connection between the thing that you're offering in the book and that conversation and someone who they know. So it just really streamlines, rather than the traditional. We love working with clients like you and referrals at the heart of our business. Please go and tell them with your friends. I mean, there's a place for that. But it's definitely nicer to orchestrate it in a way that adds value all the way down there, all the way down the track, this idea of the content of the book.

I'm always interested to hear people's view on how they decide what to include and what not to include. So obviously the process that we've got walks people through the outlining step. That's a major part of the program. But this idea of a traditional book often includes a lot of stuff because the book is the product and people are trying to hit a certain page count. So it's kind of like a quantitative measure rather than a qualitative measure. And then marry that with the thought of OK, this is a conversation starting book, but then the conversation carries on elsewhere. So what was the balance between the right level of content to include, because you guys have been in business for years and you could write three books worth of content on it. So how did that go in terms of choosing what was included and what is best fit later on?

Zach: We wanted the book to take about an hour to read is what we were kind of shooting for us. Scott and I thought about it. We said, well, we could probably make, like you said, a three, four hundred page book. But when you get a book that big from somebody, you're typically going to say, well, this is good, go put it on the bookshelf.

Stuart: It's a job for Futurezac Cohen's act. Doesn't have time. Futurezac will read it.

Zach: Yeah, Futurezac will read it. So as we looked at that, we said we've got to pair it down to where it has enough of the content to drive the conversation further and everything like that. But we just did it. I don't know. We probably pulled several elements out of it that just kept the book more condensed and more punchy.

Stuart: Yeah, I think as well the opportunity there and we talked to people a lot about this because oftentimes people will come with other material that they've got already either stuff in the website or presentations or PowerPoint type things that they've created and they'll often want to more is better and kind of throw everything in there. But the reality of the situation is having this first element that's easy to consume, gets people feeling good about completing it in a way that has moved their thinking on or given them some tangible steps to feel like they're progressing. But then, once you've captured people's details, once you've started that conversation, to be able to follow up with people over the long run and use some of those additional pieces to reinforce the book itself so much more powerful than just trying to throw all into this one asset, kind of between the front and back cover of a book. Because the reality is that most people, even if they fully intend to work with you and want to reach out, the likelihood of the timing being perfectly aligned so that they have the time to reach out, that they can schedule something that the stars align and that happens is slim, but it's much more likely over the long run. So if you can use some of those assets, some of those elements and those amplifying points of the conversation further down the track.

I think that's much more value than just trying to put it in the pages for the sake of some arbitrary page count. Another thing that I like as well is that idea of making it consumable within an hour, because I've got a shelf full of books that I would absolutely love to have read and consumed and understood. But the reality is readership rates are relatively low because people have other things coming up. So that bite size deliverable for people, I think it really kind of respects the time that they've got and also makes it more likely that they'll feel successful in achieving something because it is manageable. The feedback that you guys get I know we're early in the project, but the feedback that you guys get on this bite size approach, because there's so many, it's a broad set of information that people need to know in the round completely, but this bite size sharing of information, do you get feedback from people where that's easier for them to consume and move one step forward.

Scott: Yes, yes, just like Zach said, people do not want a 300 page book. I don't want a 300 page book, and in fact, you remember, we've published a couple of other books with your company too, and for anyone who's thinking about that experience, I will say it's fantastic. Your support staff are there, just right there. The editing process is amazing. The book cover process is amazing. It's a great experience.

So, for anyone who's wondering, we have had a great experience here with Stuart and his team. You know, remember, we started with this book here the 12 Secrets to Improve your Credit Score in 37 Days or Less and then we actually took that book which wasn't a huge book it was only what? 72 pages, Zach and then we condensed that into an even smaller book with smaller bite size pieces that people could consume, and that's the one we end up handing out the most. It's interesting because both books have same content, but one is really focused just for people who say what's the bottom line? Just tell me what to do to get my credit score better. Versus the larger book that's more geared for an engineer or an accountant, someone who wants to understand the details and the mechanics behind it.

And so we provided both of those. It's kind of funny you mentioned this because in this book, right here, the All-Know Home Cheaper Than Rent. Chapter 9 talks about how to avoid paying tax on your real estate and we really struggled with do we give more, do we give less? So, oddly enough, because there's so much content there that somebody could want we actually took the first few pages and we said here is the simplified overview and if all you want to know is the basics, read these three pages and then skip the rest of this chapter. We actually say that in the book, but if you want to really understand the nuts and bolts behind depreciation and recapture and the tax benefits of owning real estate, then go ahead and read all 20 pages of this chapter and we know some people will just skip the chapter.

They'll read the summary, skip the rest of it, and that's totally fine.

Stuart: So we've tried to accommodate that and that psychology of thinking about the I need a more pithy way of describing this but thinking about the psychology of the job of work, of the book and the whole kind of book label and author label and bestsellers and all of this traditional book thinking, which has the benefit of sharing the authority, and there's a. There's a stronger light that comes from creating a book than creating the same number of words as blog posts on a web page. You can have 10,000 words on the website, 10,000 words printed between some mashed up trees, and this one has more credibility and light and reciprocity and it feels like you're giving something than the online equivalent. Even when we talk about the online version of the books, the digital version of the books, we intentionally lay them out in exactly the same way, so they've got left and right layouts and there's blank pages where there would be blank pages in the physical version for the purpose of keeping that psychology going. But when you think about the actual job of work, we're not making money from book sales.

Our business is to help clients get new mortgages to finance their dream of home ownership, and the thing to move those people forward, quite for many people, is going to be those bite-sized chunks, because it makes them feel like they're going in the right direction. It gives them something that they don't feel overwhelmed by in terms of how to understand all of this piece. It makes them feel successful and that the outcome is achievable. And then, with those good feelings, with Zach and Scott being the people who provided that, and here's a very easy next step. That path is just so streamlined. I really love the. I'd forgotten the earlier books, actually the fact that the second one was the condensed version. We should run a separate podcast with you guys. And there's another author we've worked with called Bill Bloom, whose second book was down at 32 pages, I think. So we've got a couple of people who have really kind of dialed into this idea of less is more and the campaign type approach, and sometimes this is the best tool, but sometimes this is the best tool.

So I think for people listening, there's often a overwhelming feeling of this is a big project and there's a lot to do and it's. I need to lock myself away in a cabin in the woods with a candle and a quill and get it all written down. But taking 80% of the of the psychology of that into something that's 20%. The size is but 100% more effective it's. Again.

I'm doing the same problem that you described before with this. So much if I could just take the chip out of here and put it in people's heads and have them instantly appreciate the full opportunity. It's different not to just talk for two hours about it. Okay, sorry, off on a tangent there the feedback on some of the earlier books, or not necessarily the feedback, but the use cases. So when you think about having several titles now, several assets that you can share out in different ways, have there been any campaigns or any ways that you've used it which have either been a surprise or unexpected, or you've got feedback in a way that you didn't necessarily think would happen at the beginning?

Scott: Well, the first one that comes to mind yesterday we ran into a real estate agent that we just happened to see a few months ago. We gave him two copies of each book and said hey, read this and you might want to share it with some clients. And it was so funny to talk to him yesterday. He must have thanked us up and down for 10 minutes. I love the books, they're so useful. My clients check them out and then they have to return them and you know what? We can get you a few more books. You don't have clients check them out and turn them back in, you can just send it to them and then they could pass it on to somebody else. But he was so appreciative of the progress that his clients are making with their scores as they're getting ready to purchase home and there's probably not a week that goes by that Zach and I don't get a call from somebody that says thank you so much for that book. It's helping me. My scores are much higher than they were and this much closer now to my dream of owning a home. So it's very effective.

And we got these out, like we're constantly. Every time we meet with somebody, we do the pre-qualification, we go through their scenario, we see what their scores are, and you got to realize now it takes a 780 credit score on a conventional loan to get the best interest rate Used to be 740. Now it's 780. And so we're just going to people that we're talking to running numbers. Okay, you know what. You're a 760. We can save you a little more money. Here's the tool Do exactly what we say, we'll get you up to a 780. And we're going to save you some money with this as we get you ready to buy your house. So we do hand these out Like candy, why not?

Stuart: Exactly, why not?

I mean, everyone thinks that everyone else's industry is easy and if only I worked in that business it would be so much more straightforward.

But this idea of a almost like a magic trick, something that you can start the conversation in a very simple way for people to get started down the track the credit options and understand the credit score and making these small changes and how it can make a meaningful difference over the life of a 30 year mortgage, I think for every business there's a small piece that you can give someone to start their journey which you might think is kind of it's easy to overlook in your own business because it's the one on one level, it's the basic level and usually, as business owners, we're operating on the more complicated or random or extreme versions.

It's easy to overlook those initial steps. But the value that you're sharing with both the end consumer, the people who are doing taking those steps to make a difference, plus for those complementary, non-competing businesses like the real estateers, who really can use it in their world to make their clients' worlds, their clients' outcomes better, I mean that is the magic of creating something like this because, as we just said, there's all of the benefit and authority and gift giving and value proposition, because something's glued together on paper and then it easily makes a meaningful difference.

Scott: And to your point, stuart. We have a handful of real estate agents who are just waiting for this book to hit the streets and they're going to be buying hundreds of copies to push out to their client database because they want their clients to understand the strategy and they know that it's going to help a handful of their own clients and their own database.

Stuart: You could imagine a scenario, and I mean you need to balance their effort with the reward. But just listening to you talk there I mean on the book's release. So I did an AMA yesterday with some of our clients and we were talking about this idea of a release which, in a kind of self-publishing conversation, starting book world. It isn't really, it's not the same as a traditional book release, but still there's a date in the calendar which this thing becomes real. So reaching out to those realtors and working with them and doing a Zoom recording with them, giving them a behind-the-scenes a little more in-depth, and then giving them a pre-written letter that they can tailor for themselves a little bit, to hand out with the book to the clients and say I've worked with Scott and Zach for years and I managed to get a little bit of time with them and we recorded a behind-the-scenes. So not only is it in the book, but there's this kind of secret conversation. I keep doing air quotes, the secret conversation that we had as well. And here's the next step. I mean that in terms of increasing the success of the funnel and smoothing the path and building up the realtors, because you know that some business is going to pass through from them. There's so many opportunities to kind of amplify that complimentary, non-competing world just from talking more about the things that you're talking about already. It's kind of packaging it in a way that seems to just add more and more perceived value, which is kind of exponentially greater than the actual value that it's providing, which, in its own right, is fantastic.

I just glanced at the clock. I know that we've got a hard out soon. I'm super grateful for both of your time. I want to wrap up quickly, then, talking about what the next steps are and how you're planning to kind of leverage the suite of books almost. Is there a way of? Is the planning of the next couple of months, to use these just as conversations come up, or, now that there's a library of assets, do they exist on the website in ways that people can download them and kind of self-select into a path, trying to share ideas with other people who might be listening and thinking about, okay, if I create a book, how I can then use it, and you guys are obviously an expert at that. So, yeah, is it more physical and giving it to people, or is it more online and allowing people to download and join the, join your world that way.

Scott: Yeah, it's been a combination of both this new book we're still in the process of building that funnel, but if you were to, if you were to go to 12creditesecretscom or stoppayingextracom, then you would end up in a funnel for one of those books where you get a copy of the, a PDF copy of the book, and then you would actually get on a series that lasts about 26 days where Zach and I shot little three to five minute videos talking about every single strategy and secret and why it works and how it fits with your credit program, and so that's in place.

And then, of course, we'll be doing a similar process with this new book so people can get PDF copies of the book. We'll probably attach those to our website too, but then just handing them out, like we're doing for people that we know need a higher level understanding of the concept, and then getting it into the hands of other people who know, people like the real estate agents we work with, to get it in the hands of a lot of clients that way. You know, it's also something we've toyed with doing on maybe some Facebook advertising or something, because there's so many people. How do we get a greater reach to people we don't even know that, need to know this, and so we're trying to figure out what's the best strategy for that long term, and I'm sure we'll play with some different things. But yeah, we were handing out the books and also doing PDFs both.

Stuart: It's such a great opportunity because the things that are currently working, the fact that the book exists in physical and digital form, it's an asset now that you can use in multiple different channels as the opportunity presents itself. So things that you're not doing as the conversations come up, it's there and waiting and ready to go. It's not that you could see the opportunity and then have to create the asset. This is something that's evergreen and is useful in so many different circumstances. Zach, if you one of the questions that came up in a podcast I did a couple of weeks ago, have you ever had someone yet stop you and say, oh, you're the person who wrote the book, probably not walking down the street or an airport, but as clients come in? Has there ever has there yet been a kind of double take moment when they make the connection between the person on the cover and the person that they're talking to?

Zach: Yeah, definitely with the credit book. We've had that happen and it just it gives us a lot of trust in that conversation going forward when we do say, oh, yeah, let's go in depth on your specific scenario for that and so it's been really good. I'm excited to see that just continue into this specific book. You know, hopefully we do have that in a year where, hey, guess what, stuart, somebody stopped us on the street and said, hey, thanks for writing that book.

Stuart: He stopped having a shelf around for autographs Exactly.

Scott: You know, Stuart, I want to. I just want to speak for just a second to the aspiring authors out there who are thinking man, I want to do this. I just don't know how hard it's going to be. You know, it wasn't like super easy. We didn't do it overnight, right, it took some time and it just started with Zach writing out. You sat down for how many hours, would you say, Zach, it took you to write out that initial draft of here's my thoughts, here's my experience. These are some things I think people need to know and understand.

Zach: Probably four or five hours.

Scott: Okay. So you know it took him some time. Now I realize you have even a different model with the 90 minute approach and how you do that, but in this case we wanted to do it this way, so he took a few hours, and then every once in a while we'd get together and say, hey, you know what, let's work on this chapter a little bit, let's refine this. What charts or graphs might be useful or helpful? What's something that someone needs to know that we haven't even thought about yet and we just kind of let it simmer for a while. As we said, what to take out, what to add in, what needs enhancement. But really it is very doable. It's something that anybody could do.

Everybody's an expert at something, and we really are experts at this. I don't know that there's anybody in our marketplace that knows this better than we do. I bet money on it. We really are the experts in Utah on house hacking, and the same goes for you know credit scoring and how to improve your credit scores. We've been teaching these classes for 25 to 30 years and most loan officers don't have a clue about this stuff. But we really are experts. So it's comfortable for us to talk about these things because we understand them so well and at a depth that most people don't. But there's something that other people out there who are listening to this we're not the expert on other things right, and they are, and so it's just not that hard. You're an expert of something and you can do this. Just start by writing it out, put it on paper, get started somewhere, give a little time to it and next thing you know, you've got yourself a really powerful tool that helps set you apart from your competition.

Stuart: Yeah, such fantastic advice, that kind of bite-size approach to chunking it down and not thinking about the whole thing at once, but instead piece by piece and strategically thinking about the outline and then just filling in the details on the back of that. As you say, that's the process that we've got in a slightly different format. For clients who come through the normal route. That outline is the key and it makes it so much easier whether people work with us or do it by themselves. That really is the key that makes it, I think, from an aspiration project to something that's achievable. So I really hope that people take heed of what you said there and just kind of get started. You drop some mentioned some website links before, but I want to make sure that people can find out more about you and the team and what you're doing across there. What's the best place for people to go to check out the Asbell team and what you guys can offer?

Scott: Yeah, good question. So we have a website that's asbellteamcom and then our email is going to be team at asbellcom and then the phone number that's kind of our office number is 801-368-2900 and you can get ahold of any of us at that phone number. And if someone wanted to tap into, like you were saying, the previous books, just go to stoppayingextracom or 12creditssecretscom and you could choose one of those books and get a PDF copy of that and geta feel for what do those videos look like? What might you be able to create on your site or for your book? Get a feel for what that process looks like of educating people on the book once they opt into getting the book, say what we should.

Stuart: Have had a couple of conversations recently and try to encourage more and more people to do what you've done in terms of taking that seed information and then just amplifying it a little bit by providing more value down the track. So maybe as we get into 2024 next year, we can do a deeper dive on that process, because I think that is a game changer for people if they actually embraced it and started creating that content as well, which is straightforward once you've got the written word, you've got the material, it's just repositioning it. So, yeah, it'd be great to follow up on the show next year and do a little bit of a deeper dive there. But thanks so much for your time.

Guys, it always goes fast and today's no exception. We'll make sure that the links to the sites and the team site you mentioned there is in the show notes, so anyone listening on a podcast player or on the website can get a direct link through. Again, just thanks for your time. I want to wish you a happy new year and everyone listening happy new year. 2024 is going to be exciting and can't wait to check back in and see what you guys are up to. All right, thanks, stuart, thanks.

Scott: Thank you guys.