High-Trust Business Podcast

Today on the Book More Show, we caught up with Bob Mangold to talk about how his book 'If You List, You Last' is working to start conversations with realtors and mortgage brokers.

Bob's business is helping those in an industry swamped with 'training' opportunities by working with them to achieve tangible outcome.

His book is the perfect way to engage one of his key audiences, realtors, by identifying 4 simple steps they can take to improve their listing business.

We talk about how a book helps cut through the noise of other trainers to identify those people who resonate with his message and ultimatley become great clients.

Your book becomes an asset you can use across many channels as the tool that amplifies work you're doing to reach new people.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: I want to welcome back to the book more show. It's Stuart Bell here and today. Great episode. We're joined by Bob Mangol. Bob, how you doing.

Bob: Thanks, how about you, stuart?

Stuart: Yeah, fantastic, thank you. I'm in the week leading up to Christmas, as we record, so I'm not quite sure whether it's busy or quiet, or it seems to be a little bit of a hectic rush towards the finish line at the end of the year. How is it for you?

Bob: Yeah, always.

Stuart: Yeah.

Bob: Always.

Stuart: So, bob, would you describe yourself as a realtor coach? What would be the best way of describing it?

Bob: That would be okay, is a word. Really, what I do is to help real estate agents and mortgage brokers and mortgage loan officers implement. So there's lots of coaches that'll get on a call and you know, every week or every two weeks and say, hey, stuart, you should be doing this, this and this. Did you do that? No, oh well, the next two weeks you need to do that.

And then that, to me, is by and large what you see in coaching and almost every industry, and it's not that it's a bad thing, it's just nobody actually helps on implementing right. So you can have coaching, you can have marketing. I look at it as what we do is we implement, and so I don't let people move. I take them down a path of basically 10 things that they need to do to implement in the business and we don't move to step two until we have step one done and we don't move to step three until we have step two done. Then we implement, because you could have the greatest ideas, you can have the greatest system strategies, but if they're not implemented and executed, it doesn't matter.

Stuart: Right, there's a podcast probably a lot of the audience are aware of you probably are as well the Isle of Markets in podcast and the idea around the getting the most value from the ideas. I would have a heated or enthusiastic debate with my business partner, dean, because it means very much, on the ideas. A good idea trumps everything else and I'm very much on the side of without any implementation. I could Google ideas and have 50 to implement, but without implementation nothing happens and of course the reality is both is true, but it's always interesting the spirit of debate, because I think there is a lot of heat and light and energy and other offerings around the idea side of things. But unless there's that implementation and I don't want to say necessarily the real estate is worse than anyone else, but it's definitely a challenge of business owners across the board having that implementation step. So your approach on the implementation side was that from a hard one experience or were you naturally on that side of the fence?

Bob: You know, listen, I am of the mind that I would agree with both of you, both Dean and you, have to have good ideas. You have to exist outside the box, especially in the real estate and mortgage space. Agents and loan officers are nothing more than a commodity unless you can step out of that box or step out of that frame and do things that provide value and do things that are different. So I believe you have to have the ideas to be able to do that. But then if you don't go and put them in place, it doesn't matter. And so somebody whose own business is I've owned brokerages, mortgage brokerage, real estate brokerages if you don't implement things, nothing moves forward.

And if you're the leader of your business, which every real estate agent, every mortgage person is, if you're the leader, you have to be pushing forward. And the only way to move forward is to implement. And when you implement, you have to accept. I may have to tweak right, so I may not be great the first time I do it, but by the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth time I can get good at it. And I think what happens is most people they implement, they go. Oh, that didn't work the way I thought they go, it doesn't work. No, you just have to tweak it because you didn't work and right.

Stuart: There's some discipline and expertise and the likelihood of hitting anything out of the park. The first time is slim. I think there's an also an element of kind of like the shiny object syndrome. Because there are so many ideas, so many implementations, it's easier to or maybe it's not even easier, but it's less. There's less accountability to think oh, it was the idea that was bad, I just need to find another idea, rather than it was my implementation. That could have been better and I just need to have a little bit more practice and I think that you just hit the nail on the head.

Bob: We always look at oh well, there's something wrong with whatever shiny object I have. So that had to be the problem.

Excuse me, because it couldn't be me right and we just have to accept as people that, no matter what we do, the first time we do it we're not that great at it, because I promise the fifth time you do it you'll be better than the first time, and the tenth time you do it you'll be better than the fifth time. And so you know. That's like hey, you've got to do things, you know, a hundred times or a thousand times before you get good at it. It's a hundred percent.

True, yeah, and I think what happens is people just do it one or two times, they get blown out and it doesn't feel right for me, instead of going back and making changes and putting things into their own personality, for example, like one of the things I don't like to do is I don't like to write scripts. I have them, but what happens is then people read a script hi, stuart, good morning, how are you today? Well, that's not going to work right, and so until you get comfortable going hey, stuart, how you doing? My name is Bob, I'm right, and you put it into a normal tone and you get good and you get comfortable at it.

It's not going to work very well, and the only way that you're going to get comfortable is really what I recommend to everybody, and really I don't care what business you're in, is that you role play, right like, why think about it? Why would you practice, you know, in the real state space? Why would you practice in an actual listing presentation where there's money on the line? And you're practicing now? Why don't you just grab another agent, a spouse, a friend of somebody, enroll, play it when there's no money involved first?

Stuart: particularly, I think. Realism yeah, this is in mortgage brokers particularly, maybe even more so than some lower transaction businesses the value in those converted appointments is so high, compared with selling someone a twenty five dollar widget, that the college, the idea of practicing before actually turning up I mean, at least if you're going to practice whilst you're there and have the commitment to carry on and see it through, I guess that's better than giving up too soon. But the idea of role play, I think it seems somewhat artificial or kind of academic to people. But when you look at sportsman, high performance sports I was at the Miami Grand Prix with a friend earlier in the year and my dad's super into the Grand Prix I am not so much friend, andrew super into it.

So he I just spoke to him last week and he was saying that the teams had moved from North America to Europe and then back to South America. There was some real tight schedule and was talking about one of the drivers who was flying in two days early specifically to be on the simulator for two days before that course. So on the lead to the example that with that idea of role play, we talk about it in a real sense or in a sales sense and it seems kind of contrived. But if we took that exact same scenario and put it into a professional sports context, we've all heard of Tiger Woods kind of just practicing every hole in the racing car, drivers simulating the course. It's such a common experience in other elements but I think people right make it too easily yeah, I mean, think of a pilot.

Bob: Would you want to go? Hey, you know. Hi, welcome passengers. You know, today's my first flight. I've never even been behind a simulator.

Stuart: Let's give it a go right, yeah, I've watched on TV, but yeah definitely.

Bob: Yeah, in our profession we do that, and you know I'm always dumbfounded why we would do that. When there's money on the line, you go, well, figure it out. When I'm, you know, talking to somebody, it's like, well, not when there's money on the line. That just never made sense to me. And full disclosure. When I first started in sales I did not love role playing right, you were self-conscious and all those other things. But pretty quickly I learned it's better to mess it up in role playing than it is to mess it up sitting in front of somebody when you can get paid right and so that's what I mean by implementation.

So like, literally, you know, in about two hours after we're done with this today, I have a weekly implementation call and what we're doing is I will have the agents in my program literally role playing how to present a cash offer to a seller and do it with me. And you know well, depending on the week, maybe you know normally hundreds, but maybe some dozens this week of other realtors listening. So it's pressure, no question, but wouldn't it be much better to have the pressure now when there's no money on the line?

right and so, before I have them go out, start calling potential sellers, I want to make sure that they can explain it properly yeah, and that to me just makes common sense anyway.

Stuart: One of those elements on. You talk about the call today, specifically around the cash offer side of things. Anything I think is that's not everyone's level of comfort is within their kind of sphere of experience and they can talk pretty comprehensively about that particular subject and once they've gone through it a couple of times as you say, perhaps practice not when there's money online, but once they've been through it a couple of times, it becomes second nature. But as soon as the subject starts going slightly wider or they're trying to introduce a new topic or have a new approach or deal with a new type of client, I think we can sometimes rely on that expertise of the familiar where anti-sellers are slightly the new thing that we're approaching, jumped off on a bit of a test.

Bob: And that's why in the book I actually have a 10, really, we just call it a roadmap just 10 steps, and what I teach real estate agents to do is focus on building a listing focus business right, and for years I've been predicting that what happened this year was going to happen, that we would get into the courts and this buyer agent commission.

I just didn't see any way in the world we were going to win. It doesn't mean that it's valid or invalid. It's just you get in front of jury, of your peers, and then people start feeling like they were screwed and paying more than they had to. The outcome is not going to be good, and so if you were listing agents, you didn't have the flux in your business that you're going to have going forward in 2024. So I've always believed just if you list, you last and at the end of the day then it just becomes again. To me, 87% of all real estate agents fail in the first couple of years because we're not teaching the right things. Well, we know that the top earning agents in our industry are all listing agents. Why don't we model that instead of what doesn't work?

Stuart: Yeah, I think so it never made sense to me.

Bob: It's like why aren't we teaching agents how to build a listing focus business? And then the second step of that once you make that determination, I'm going to do it. You better figure out what your value to the marketplace is, and so you know. I just refer to that as value branding. So often you hear you need to build a personal brand. Well, and that's great. If you want to tell the world how wonderful you are, Personal branding is a great thing. In my opinion, I think we need to take and talk to the people about what value I bring to the relationship, so that the outcome that we have by working together is more lucrative for you Meaning you sold a house for more money, you netted more money, whatever that looks like, but it's about the experience that you're going to have as the consumer and what value I bring to you, not how wonderful I am.

Stuart: Right.

Bob: And so I don't market that way. To me, it's all about what value are you bringing to the consumer, right? And if you can't answer that and that's what I talked about in the book and I give everybody you know how we do it in the system I created to be able to answer that. But if you can't tell people what your value is to the marketplace, why would they hire you, right? And the second part is if you don't provide any value, why will they refer you?

Stuart: to anybody. Yeah, those ideas of orchestrating those steps. I think even if people, if you push them and force them and they answer, they would see and maybe even come up themselves with a level of value being more important than personal brands. But the default, the general position, seems to be so much more people are focused on the personal brand side of things. Coming from the UK, you don't seem to get the same. It's much more company driven rather than person driven and I'm guessing that's some structural difference.

I didn't know that many realtors in the UK to be able to look at the difference. But realises in the US, compared with a number of other professional services industries, definitely seems to be more. They default more to the person Right. They're based on a bus seat or a billboard rather than the value proposition at their point.

Bob: Right, so those. And so I think if you focus on the personal, you know you can be successful and you spend a lot of money doing it, but if you actually focus on the value that you bring, you can build a much better, a much more solid base of referral business. Right, right, which is ultimately referrals are free, so I could go out and spend all kinds of money on Facebook and Instagram and I could spend time making YouTube videos telling the world how wonderful I am, or I could actually take and change the financial outcome for people on their transactions and then at that point they're more than happy to refer people to to that. So I refer to something I called I don't call it the stadium pitch. I actually got it from Chet Holmes book the Ultimate Sales Machine.

Stuart: Right.

Bob: And it's the concept hey, if we fill the stadium full of people for you buyer, sellers, investors and I said, stuart, I'm going to give you 30 seconds to get out there and tell those 50, 70, 500, 100,000 people, tell them about your business, tell them whatever you want to tell them to do that, and I'm going to instruct them prior. If you're boring, they can just get up and walk out, it doesn't matter. And then you go okay, go. What do you say? And the typical real estate default answers Well, I've been in the business for 25 years and I've sold 300 million and I love my clients and I was born and raised here and etc. Etc.

Stuart: Yeah.

Bob: It's like come on, yawn, that doesn't speak to anything. And so what I encourage everybody to do is to create that, that stadium pitch, to be able to do that. And people say to me all the time it's like wow, that's not realistic, that's never going to happen. It's like, well, I disagree with you, probably not 50 or 75,000 people. But you go to a B and I meeting a Chamber of Commerce a little tip, any of those networking groups and everybody gets their one minute to tell about you and they get up and they say that stuff.

Stuart: Yeah.

Bob: And I'm going like how compelling would that be? So in the book I outline our stadium pitch. It's very, very simple. Hey, there are 3 mistakes that homeowners make that prevent them from having their home paid off in 7 to 10 years and accumulating a million dollars in cash from that property In addition to the equity. And all we simply do is we rearrange the interest that you pay so it stays in your pocket instead of the bank. If you'd like to see how fast you could have your home paid off and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you could save, schedule a 15 minute call with me. That's more compelling than saying, hey, I've been doing this for 30 years and I was born and raised here, which I wasn't that kind of stuff.

Right, when people understand that there's a potential value and it's different than what everybody else says, that's how you Change the perception of you as a professional. So people you say to me all the time say so you're kind of like the Dave Ramsey or Susie Yorman of of real estate and mortgage. It's like, yeah, there's things I disagree with them on, but by and large yes. And so if realtors understood that they had to have a value proposition, a difference in how they work. Like why would you refer a friend to me? Well, if I could help your friend get completely out of debt in seven to ten years, save hundreds of thousands of dollars in payments and interest and then use that to fund their retirement, well, that's a good reason to refer your friends or family members to me.

Stuart: That comes back to that value proposition like, say, well, leveraging the relationships because there's another existing relationship there. It's actually the value that you're providing to the person. The ten ideas that form the book and bring those together, are they? There's a consistency. I've got a cover. Let me just bring that up. Click the right button. Okay, so if you list your last, so this idea is consistent across a number of the things that you do, whether it's the book, the podcast, the websites, this Framework. Is this one of the fundamental frameworks to the rest of the program or is this something that was brought together for the purpose of the book?

Bob: They're basically different steps and tenets of what I do, but I brought everything together in the book to say, hey, here are the ten things that you have to do, right? So a simple one everybody goes. You know the four-step process starts with well, who will you talk to? Well, real estate agents talk to everybody. Well, it doesn't matter who I talked to, it's talk to everybody. Well, no, if you want to actually focus on listings, then you need to be talking to People that have homes to sell, or people who can refer you to homes that have homes to sell. And everybody goes. Well, in today's market, just, people aren't selling their homes. And I would beg to differ with you because, well, in every market we have people that get divorced. They don't care what the interest rate is on the home they need to sell right 65% of all listings in 2022 came from senior citizens, mainly.

As we age Right, we have to downsize, and so 65% of the people that are selling in your neighborhood are Seniors. Well, there's a good place to start. And then there's things that we do Algorithmically that we know they have a higher likelihood of selling. Well, that's who we focus on like a laser Because they're likely to sell. And then, if you think about it, there's a whole industry around that right a state planning attorneys, medicare insurance, people on the divorce side, divorce attorneys so there's all these other professionals that can refer business to you. For example, one of my agents works with a divorce attorney. He gets three to five listings every month from them.

Stuart: Yeah.

Bob: Now we've got a probate. One of my guys in Northwest Indiana works with a probate attorney. 16 listings last year from a probate attorney.

Stuart: Wow, yeah, yeah. This idea of complimentary, non competing business it isn't just taking that moment to think outside of that first degree circle to the people who have your clients, who you can help best but you don't necessarily have immediate access to it starts opening up so many channels and over time it builds as well. I mean, I'm sure the agency work would see this time and time again. The first time they do that thought exercise, they'll they'll identify one person but keep doing that exercise. And five years down the track, that's a pretty robust business. I can't. I did see a start earlier this year.

Bob: They're great part is that that's recession proof Business, right. People are gonna continue to your old. 10,000 people a day turn age, turn 65 every day, right now. That business is gonna be there for decades. Divorce is never going away. That has nothing to do with the economy. If I'm a senior and I fall and get hurt or I get ill and I have to sell in my house, it's not economy driven Business, right? So the problem is, yeah, you have to determine who you're gonna talk to, then you have to figure out where you're gonna find them.

Stuart: Right.

Bob: And once you start to specialize right I'm sure you've heard the phrase the riches are in the niches Don't be everything to everybody. Focus on one thing. Those one thing could be sellers, and then there's subsets of sellers underneath that, and then there's subsets of prospects. I have the people at own the house, but I have people that refer them. Yeah, that's where you focus your business.

Stuart: Right, that idea of specialization and the riches being in the niches. It's the first tenant of the of the book blueprint scorecard. It's the picking that single target audience and thinking of things in terms of campaign by campaign by campaign. It's not saying that you'll never address other things, but for this particular exercise, doubling down it just makes the whole process so much easier because, as your guys I'm sure see as well, the language that you use with that particular group, the follow up sequences you've got in place, the examples that just spring to mind as you having those conversations, once you've all played it and got the language square in your mind, it just makes it so much more straightforward.

Bob: And that does come to the expertise part where we're talking earlier like you have to get better and better at this. Well, the more you enter into those markets, the more you understand what's important. Let's say to a senior Right, right, so seniors, you don't go in and just real estate agent all over them, you just turn them off because they're used to having people try and scam them. To be honest with you, and at the end of the day, the better you get at understanding the needs and things of that nature, the more success you'll have. But that just simply takes time, transactions, understanding, conversations, networking, like, hey, what's important? What are the five things that are important for estate planning that people should have?

One of the things if you have a 45, 50 year old client, the question would be hey, stuart, have your parents signed a beneficiary deed? Yet you know it'd be better if they had a trust, but it'd be better, it would be good if they had a will. But the very worst case scenario is they have a beneficiary deed and so often I talk to real estate agents they go what is that Right? It's like well, when the person dies, the deed goes directly to the descendant. It's not going through per bait or any of the rest of the stuff. So at the end of the day, the more you get involved in that, the more knowledgeable you get, the more value you bring to the client. It doesn't happen like day one hey, I'm going to focus like that and all of a sudden I'm going to be an expert at it.

Stuart: Yeah, and that being in it for the long term, the specialization and adding value, layering on the value, one level on top of the other, that is. I was listening to a podcast. I own an electric vehicle. I was listening to a podcast the other day.

The guy was talking about going into one of the traditional manufacturers who had an electric range but none of the sales guys knew anything about it. So he was giving them the details because he was enthusiast and then had gone back with another friend two months later and the guys still didn't know the details like how big the battery was or what their average range was or whether how affected cold weather was. And he'd literally given them the information. But by not doubling down in that particular specialization or having an interest to double down in that specialization, the likelihood of you building a relationship with a senior where you are able to provide that extra value and given a broader perspective, versus just going in and like the line you use, kind of real estate realtor all over them, it just makes such a difference and I think if you're in any industry for the long term, having that interest and and respect for the clients to want to be able to provide that value really makes the difference. All right, yeah.

Bob: Yeah, you know, I, about six years ago, I started looking at the market. The way things were happening is when these lawsuits first started and I said, you know, quite honestly, it's like this isn't going to end well. But the question you have to ask yourself really is why would a seller pay a buyer's agents? And you could say, well, the seller doesn't pay the buyer's agent, the listing agent does. The end of the day, the seller pays it. Right, the buyer pays it in the form of an elevated home price, just the way it works, and be honest with with that. But basically, what you're doing is saying, hey, I'm going to pay you 6% or I'm going to offer 6% and you're going to give 3% to a buyer's agent. Oh, yes, do it. By the way, that buyer's agent's job is very simple it's to negotiate the best price in terms for the buyer, which means it's going to take money out of your pocket at closing Right. When you explain that to a seller like that and I just go is there a reason you'd want to do it that way? And they say, well, that's the way it's done? It's like, well, what if it wasn't done that way?

And I started having these conversations with sellers and I created a system called Home Boss that was designed to answer that. Hey, the buyer's going to pay the commission. We have a way to do it where it's compliant with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It's all completely disclosed, so we don't have any lawsuit issues. It's if a buyer wanted to negotiate their commission with the agent, they could see it right up front what it was. They could do whatever they want. But at the end of the day, what it allowed us to do is it allowed us to take and get the seller the highest market value, and we can guarantee that because of the amount of traffic that we get and we can do it 14 days. We don't even put a lockbox on the house, right? Because biggest thing for sellers they hate the hassle and headaches of listing. Corelogic did a study about a year ago that said 77% of home buyers would be willing to give up 5% to 10% of their equity just to eliminate the normal process of selling a home. So if we could get price, which is a big deal, we could eliminate hassles and headaches and get it done fast. We could do that but at the same time be compliant with the courts, and so simply, all we do is our fee is 3% to sell home and if another agent brings the buyer, we add 3% to the price. It's all disclosed. It happens online and everybody knows what everybody else is offering. There's no highest and best blind offers.

And so, about six years ago, I seen that coming. My son was just getting licensed, he was 22. And it was like you know how's he going to walk into somebody's house and they're not going to go? Kid, how old are you and how many homes have you sold? And what we're able to do is create a process that we focused on the process and not the person. This is the process that allows you to get these things and we're able to drive traffic like our record open house was April 3 of 2023. We had 1,224 people in an open house.

The question would be, how long would it take you if you put it in MLS and you let the normal process? How long would it take you to get 1200 people in an open house or to visit the listing? We did it in two days, which is how we can. You know how we know that we can guarantee that the maximum value for the property, and so it's just about looking outside the industry. Six years ago, I can tell you, people told me I was nuts. Realtors were like this is crazy. Why are you doing this? And suddenly now it's not so crazy anymore because we lost. And now one of the people I talked to five years ago actually had a team, was named in one of the lawsuits, called me up and said, my God, I should have listened to you.

Stuart: Yeah, like you say, even with the lawsuits on the natural, the joy of the peers naturally signing on the side of the consumer because there's sympathy and it seems unfair and the big guy versus the little guy type approach, but just the natural tendency towards faster, more seamless transactions online. The whole COVID approach to forcing people to be more comfortable or making people be more comfortable pretty quickly with purely online transactions. I think that accelerated things by five years. But the situation we're in now that study saying people would be willing to pay, give up real money, just for ease of transaction, anything convenience trumps anything and as more and more people heading down that route, I think it's the agents who are adopting that or acknowledging it and then embracing it slightly will be the ones who are heading in another five years and not just fighting the nostalgia of how it was when they first got started.

Bob: Yeah, 100%. So it's funny Many, many of my agents actually do listing presentations on zoom. They don't. They don't even go into the house anymore. Well, pre COVID, that like people didn't know what zoom was right, so you couldn't necessarily do that.

So there are some things that came out of COVID that helped us as an industry, and one of my agents literally just sold his house, now travels around the country, has a I call it a rockstar tour bus and he takes his listings via zoom traveling across the country and he has a buyer's team that does the open houses form. He's traveling the country and he takes two to three listings a week traveling in a you know, a luxury RV, a tour bus, whatever you want to call it. And the whole paradigm has changed because of COVID and yet people will still say no, people won't do that. And it's like my answer is well, please don't tell all my agents who are doing that, because it works pretty darn good. Right, and you got to change your paradigm and you have to start looking at how the world's going to change and what you can do to be in front of it.

Stuart: Yeah, you know everything with AI.

Bob: Now it's. You know, is AI going to replace a real estate agent? No, but boy, can it take care of some of your tasks and things like. Hey, I have a podcast. If you list your last podcast and guess what, I had it on AI. It used to take three hours. I used to have a firm that did it for me and everything else and, you know, paid a few hundred dollars a month to do that and Literally I uploaded into an AI system and three minutes later I have a perfectly edited video and podcast.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah that that's speeding up of the task related things. When you look at the real estate industry across the board, how many things are slowed down by Old or legacy ways of doing things, or because that's the way it's always done, or the the Reducing need to do things with face-to-face contact, the whole title side of the business that it just I I'm surprised at that still exists and it really.

Bob: Real estate is a very College, traditional business, if you will. They still teach agents the same thing that they've been teaching for the last 50 or 60 years. And my thing is, I have a corporate background and you know my answer is hey, if I ran a corporation and 87% of my employees washed out in the first two years Like we'd be firing somebody right. Yet in the real estate industry that's what we do and it's like, well, that's just how it works. It's a tough business. Well, no, what if we started teaching them different things to be more effective?

Yeah and Changing the way that they're trained, instead of just throwing them out to the wolves and go door knock. You know, go knock on doors.

Stuart: Yeah, I think that expectation that it's a personal business and you can't replace the human element of it is true to the point of the Relationships and making sure that the client feels like you've, you're their trusted partner, but all of the ancillary things around it, those are the things that will go quickly and You're right. Speeding up the process, changing the training to be more effective in 2023 and beyond, means that they can double down on that human element and make sure that that's the piece that is replaceable by machines, but streamlining everything else, taking away the headache that that does wash out so many of the people.

Bob: It's what what I actually teach is is pretty simple Process. The only job that you have each day is to talk to 10 potential sellers or 10 People who could refer you to sellers. The only job you get paid for is to talk to people. There's a real estate agent or mortgage person. The only thing we actually get paid for is to get a listing agreement signed or a buyer broker agreement signed the only thing we get paid to do. Everything else can be clerical for lack of, you know, a description. So if you want to maximize the amount of money you make, well, it's pretty simple Just talk to 10 people a day and then, if you can take the 10 people a day and get better at your value branding, your value Proposition, instead of talking to like, let's say, the average realtor has to talk to a hundred people to get one listing Right.

They get talked to ten to get into, or they talked to a hundred to get ten appointments. Then they list one, two, whatever the number is. Well, what if all we had to do is talk to ten to get six or seven listings Right? So it isn't that we have to talk to more people, because I hear that all the time. Real estate's a numbers game. To some level that could be true, but it's actually a skills game. Our job needs to be I could. If I can talk to less people to get more signatures, I'll make more money in less time.

Right and so one of my coaching tenants is I don't want our people working more than 40 hours a week, because then you're working. If you're working 80 hours a week, you're not working smart, you're working hard. Let's work smart, improve our skills and what we're saying to people and what we talk to people about, and that's why I don't. I don't love scripts. Scripts because they become Something that's red and we eliminate all tonality, all speed, pace, things like that. As a natural, you know, my natural tone is talk fast and like I dump a lot of stuff out, but if you actually hear me talk to somebody in a sales situation, I'm actually very slow, I'm contemplative. Right, it's all that tonality that comes into it. Why aren't we teaching that in the real estate business and saying here's a script. Right, you see it all over Facebook all the time. Hey, who wants my physboscripts or who wants this script? The script itself is there's nothing new out there. The question is, what's your skill level In that scripting, in talking to people?

Stuart: right, exactly, it's the taking, the, the, the, the tool in the idea and tailing it for your particular Use case and your personality and actually internalizing it as well. It's not just reading as you say off a page and it's the words, their magic. It's the fact that you're able to Internalize and use those words in a real conversation with a real person and and kind of make that connection and show the value so that they take that decision and exactly podcast there as well.

This idea of bringing the ideas together into a book and how you plan on using the book to get in front of the people who you Can best help. Was that an idea that was pretty crystal clear, when you mind before you started, or have the ideas kind of formalized as you've kind of made the move to bring it together?

Bob: I'm pretty good at making a decision and then figuring out all the different ways that I can. You know the different tentacles that go out to to do that. But no, I went into it with the idea that it's it's simply a Promotional tool, if you will, and I don't like to use the word promotional, but part of my mission is that I want to start teaching agents and lenders how to financially impact their clients. And I can't do that one one real estate agent time and I speak on stages and I do different things, but at the end of the day, a book gets it out there where they maybe they want to start to interact and go. Well, this kind of makes sense. And what might the next step be? Well, we're turning that into podcasts, which will turn it into videos, which will turn it into blog posts, which will turn it into content, which will turn it into reels and shorts and all those things. So, yeah, there's kind of a master plan to how that all will work, but part of it is to let people experience really agents and lenders experience, say that content and see if it makes sense to them.

My brand of things are the way that I think may not be. You know, it's not for everybody, right? Somebody wants to be a value brand. No, no, no, it's all about me and I want to be. Everything is about how wonderful I am. They're probably not going to relate well to what I talk about and that's okay.

Stuart: That idea that the book's not the product, the conversation from the book is the product and the matching of your approach with the ultimate conversation you're going to have with people, because the business model isn't sell a book and make money from a book.

The business model is give a book away, start that conversation and eventually talk to someone one on one. And if there is that consistency of what they've read or what they skimmed, and then they're having the conversation with you and the conversation you're having with them, that congruency then leads to the next step, so much better than I think. People sometimes want to write in a way that doesn't reflect them or want to include content that isn't necessarily aligned with their mission or their message, and it misses the opportunity because the, as I said, the book isn't the product. We're not looking at book sales. It's the ability to start a conversation with someone who can then eventually become a client. And if they're married up, then not that we're necessarily trying to sift and sort as the primary purpose of it, but if it's just some amount of selecting and really help those people who it's a yes for take that next step, then that's the perfect use case for it.

Bob: And that is that. That was the entire goal. This was never about like selling a book and making money with the book. It's like, hey, let people experience what it is that I do, and in the book I give them the links. They can attend classes. I teach classes every Wednesday so they can come and experience that. They can go to our website, real estate asset advisorsorg. They can watch replays of those classes, right, and we're not selling anything at the class.

If you want to hear what I'm teaching and that resonates with you. That's how we'll attract clients that are dedicated to the same mission that I'm on, which is impacting your client's life financially. And you know, again, if you think about it, real estate is the number one source of wealth. For everybody in the United States, or at least who owns it, it's a number one source of wealth, and yet this is the business we're in and we don't do anything that actually helps teach people how to utilize it and leverage it to build wealth. Well, that's really what our value is opening a door, writing a contract, and you can get anybody to do that, and so my message will go out in all these different arenas and then I'll let them experience that and if it resonates with them, great.

And you know, even in the book I give them access. They can schedule a call with me. I don't care, they don't have to be a client. I'll schedule a call with somebody and talk to them about their business and see if it resonates and if it makes sense for us to work together, great. If it doesn't, great. If I can impart some knowledge or you can learn something from going to the class, is great. So it's really just an invitation to say, hey, experience this content and if any of it resonates and you need help you know I have a plan for that.

Stuart: Yeah, I think it's the perfect utilization of it because you've got a framework that exists already. You've got the tools to help people. There's an easy model that people can understand it and imagine for themselves how to put it into practice for their business. And then there's a very straightforward and simple next step. Whether you're really committed and want to jump in with a call to see how it works for you, or whether you just want to dip your toe in the water a little bit more and attend some of the classes, and this bringing together of all of those elements that you have into a holistic approach to kind of move that conversation forward I think it's a perfect implementation of it.

Bob: Well see how it works out, but I think it is and it's a way to get the message out and it'll resonate with some not all, but it's the ones that it resonates with. That I'm interested in talking to.

Stuart: Yeah, and you can help them and they can get the best from you in that experience. That transaction 100%. Time goes fast, as always on these calls, If you're going to check back in a little bit down the track and get some feedback on what the feedback from people who have been through that particular funnel so come from not having heard from you before to seeing something about the book, to joining the program and taking it further. I think that'd be really interesting for people. I want to make sure that people can access you and make sure that they can follow up and find out more. So where's the best place for people to go if they want to check out both the book and what you do?

Bob: Probably the easiest place is to go to www. If you list you lastcom, perfect.

And so you can connect to the podcast, you can register for the classes, you can schedule a call. You can download. Right now I've got a what did I call it? A pre-editor version. So the books are being printed as we speak and the digital will be ready and I'll call it a week or two, but in the meantime we've got a pre-digital version that somebody could download and go from there. So it's pretty simple, because if you list you last and wwwifulistulastcom and that'll connect you with everything that we do, Fantastic.

Stuart: Well, we'll put links in the show notes. So if people are listening on the podcast play, it will be in the show notes there or on the website. Obviously, it will be just below the video here. That before we wrap, actually that pre-edited, pre-live version idea. I think we were talking to someone I can't remember who it was a couple of months ago who had sent out a kind of like a slightly earlier version which was pretty much complete, but it just what didn't have all of the polish around it, had sent it out to their existing list and was using it as kind of like a referral interest generating tool, but positioned in the way of hey, we've worked together or you're in my world already. I really want to give you, like behind the scenes, insights into what's happening and then if you want to sign up or anyone you know wants to sign up for the final version, then head over here.

And they generated quite a bit of excitement, not in some artificial presale list or best seller list or anything like that, just an authentic hey, we've worked together. I just wanted to share the behind the scenes and keep you up to date on what's going. That idea is fantastic and I think it just adds to the point you were making about building the value and the human element. That can't be AI to work. Is that one-on-one connection and doing things like that, the slightly more behind the scenes, or the sharing, the, the, the recipe, as things are being made? I think that just helps add that, that real connection to people, great idea.

Bob: Yeah, We've given away. We've had a lot of people download the book already. This isn't about being an Amazon best seller or anything else. It's about getting a message out, finding a group of people that are committed to the same things, because when we do that, that's how I can. That's I personally can have the biggest impact. I could sit there and scream in the mountain top about how to take and utilize a real estate to build your personal net worth and things like that. Or I could have thousands of real estate agents that I teach how to do it and then they go out and do it. I can have a much bigger impact that way. So it starts with a, a simple book, and we'll move it from there.

Stuart: Yeah, it's exciting. There's so much opportunity here to bring it all together and we really should hook back up in a few months time and just give it an update on on how it's going Right. Well, thanks so much for your time. I know this is a busy week in the lead up to Christmas. We appreciate you taking some time and my pleasure from it.

Bob: No, my pleasure. Thanks so much.

Stuart: Okay, well, we'll make sure that, as I say, the links are in the podcast player and in the just below the video on the website here. Thanks everyone for listening. This show is going to be the last one for Christmas, I think, so I hope everyone has a fantastic holiday. We'll push another shout next week and then, bob, like I say thanks for your time and we'll catch up with everyone soon.

Bob: Perfect Thanks for your pleasure. Bye.

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kara Stewart, a seasoned financial advisor and author of 'Put Power in Your Purse', a holistic, stylish guide to retirement planning.

Kara shares her journey from corporate finance to running a successful independent practice. A change initially forced on her through layoffs, but after reviewing her options, she decided that starting her own firm was the best path to helping those she truly wanted to help.

She shares insights into her pioneering approach to empowering women through financial planning and education. A path started by sharing other resources but developed into her own approach, framework, and more recently, her new book.

Identifying a target audience allows you to create a message and program that speaks specifically to their needs. Even if you work with a broader group or can help many people, treating your book as a tool for a specific campaign is the best way to start a conversation with a perfect prospect and plan their journey to working with you.

I love how Kara distinguishes herself in a competitive industry, and her approach is one that can be applied to many different industries.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Everyone. Welcome back to the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Kara Stewart. Kara, how are you doing? Excellent, how are you Fantastic, very good, thank you. Thanks for making time to do this, say I'm excited to dive in and share with the audience a little bit more about what you do and the book that you wrote. One of the things we talk about a lot is kind of dialing in this niche of the audience that you really wanna talk to. I think yours is a great example of doing exactly that. Why don't we start with a bit of background share with the audience where you are, what you do, and then we can kind of go from there?

Kara: Absolutely well. Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here today, Gosh. I've been in practice for 23 years. My career spans over Wells Fargo Bank, merrill Lynch, I was a market maker of community bank stocks, such as Bank of Petaluma, exchange, bank, sonoma National, which is now UMQUA, and then I spent a decade at Ventrio Insurance Brokerage as the assistant vice president and manager of the Financial Service Division, and then, in 2009, they actually eliminated my department and literally overnight, I found myself jobless and, of course, being married with a house and two babies. It was very scary and I decided well, what if I started my own practice? What if I went independent? And here, 13 years later, I am thriving, not just nearly surviving.

Stuart: It goes fast.

I always kind of it does it sure does A little bit scared. When I started in the math, people started talking about 2008-09. So I was on the IT side of financial services at the time and our department went from 40 people down to 20 and I was still there, fortunately, but you think that was just yesterday, but it was a little bit more than yesterday In that timeframe. Then there was a necessity in going independent. Obviously, it's still around, so there's no regrets of having taken that choice. But the apprehension or the fear factor of being independent versus trying to find another job was it an easy choice to make or was it necessities? The mother invention and that was the other person.

Kara: Yes and no. So I did have about eight different job offers within 24 hours of being laid off. So that was the good news. And so, again, thinking about, what if I went independent? What would that look like? And if, for some reason it didn't work, I had all these fallback positions. So I kind of went into it with the intention of hopefully it works well. Right, and here we are 13 years later. But again, if it doesn't, then I know that I am marketable and of value. And at that time, of course, I used to say how could you right? Like I felt very hurt and that was a hard time in my life. But now I say thank you, because have I not been pushed from the nest? I wouldn't have realized these beautiful wings.

Stuart: Right and it gives you some opportunity to deal with the people who you prefer to deal with. We were talking with someone a few weeks ago who, again similar situation, came from a corporate background, but their perspective was very much. It was not burn insurance, not quite the right word but there was a certainly a male element to it of getting people in 10 minutes dealing with them. Move on to the next client. There wasn't really any tailored asset management or real holistic financial planning. I guess that's a big difference in the work that you've gone down the clients you deal with, because you can give that additional time and focus on those individuals.

Kara: That's absolutely right. So in fact, the very thing that I did when I immediately went independent was to really evaluate the model right. And working for Wells Fargo and Merrill Lynch, what I didn't like is that they employed quotas on their employees for certain product areas and so I would see sometimes coworkers not necessarily doing the right thing for the client because that then meant that they then got through their quota and extra bonus et cetera. So when I went independent, the very first thing I did was not employ that model. So most financial advisors charge on UM or assets under management. So you can imagine they wanna manage all your assets right when sometimes that's not appropriate Sometimes.

And the holistic approach is really true in my practice in that I look at mortgage positions, I looked at trust planning, I look at insurance policies all the things that are part and tax planning. I mean that's a big difference between myself and a normal, traditional financial advisor is that I look at tax returns and I can analyze them, because I and I often will say if someone has an existing financial advisor and if they're not asking for your tax returns, that's like going to the doctor and having the doctor prescribe a remedy without looking at your medical record. That's how important that piece is of the overall puzzle, and so my approach is extremely different, very independent and, again, very holistic.

Stuart: So the audience that you've got, are they locally, within a geographic area, or statewide or nationwide?

Kara: I can work nationwide. In fact, I'm the nationwide financial advisor for charitable foundation. However, most of my clients are local. I am in Windsor, california, actually in the heart of Windsor Town Green, which is an area that we focus a lot on community I do, I give back all the time with not only my community but with first responders, doctors, dentists, police, firefighters, et cetera. But then also I have a very, very deep passion for empowering women.

Stuart: And that actually is probably a great pivot into the book. So the book itself gives a little background into what brought you to, I guess, what brought you to writing it and then just dive into a little bit more on that group of people. It seems like an obvious question, but the idea to double down on the empowering women and helping that, if it's not too obvious, what made you want to focus on that group particularly?

Kara: Sure, well, and I want to make sure it's very clear, I do work with men. In fact, most of my clients are men, and that's kind of what triggered this or ignited this passion was realizing that most women don't know what they don't know, and, in fact, there was a period of one year where I had three females that came to me this couple of years ago, three females that came to me having losing their husbands unexpectedly and prematurely, and all of which had no idea what they had or didn't have or should have or could have, and so it kind of united this movement almost to where I wanted to put power in the purse and empower women with information, and I started gifting a book called the Power of Zero right after our 2017 wildfires, because we as a community some of it's I mean my own sister lost her house where I got married was gone. Several clients lost their homes I actually had a client pass away in the fire so it was a significant, impactful event, indirectly or directly, and so I started gifting this book, power of Zero, by David McKnight, and I've gifted that probably to 500 families by now, just trying to leave with education and let them just understand what it is that they should have or could have it again, that the ideas are not something you'll get from the Wells Fargo or Maryland or Ever Jones or Fidelity, because it speaks to the tax planning piece of financial planning. And so after gifting that book, I thought you know, gosh, I'm really kind of giving David McKnight all this. You know, cred. And so I collaborated with three industry professionals on a book called the Holistic Retirement Plan, and that's as current as the pandemic. It talks about very relative issues that we face globally and locally.

And then from there it was like but what if I wrote my solely authored book, which has been a goal of mine for many years? I've always loved writing. I could, when my kids were little, I could, like whip up a poem as their birthday invitation, literally within a matter of minutes. I enjoy writing and I'm very not to, you know, toot my own horn, but I'm very creative in the way I can just literally rattle off something and comes off in a way like it seems like it took me a long time to prepare, but no, it's just how I speak and how I think. And so putting that to paper and really trying to empower women with education was truly what made me want to write this book. As a native of Sonoma County, my reputation needs more to me than anything, and so, again, just trying to lead with that integrity and the authenticity is truly what the book is all about.

Stuart: And that's just as you started there. That was a great point because you were mentioning that you work with men and maybe even the majority of clients. That is a great talking point. Briefly, because oftentimes people have a skesities maybe not quite the right word, but they don't view the book as a campaign specific asset. They're looking at it in a traditional sense and thinking that a book needs to be this very broad thing, like you would say in a bookshelf, in a store, in the traditional sense of covering all of the elements, as opposed to thinking about the real benefits, particularly as business owners, of having a campaign specific approach. So just because this particular book is targeting this group absolutely not the case that you're excluding or not working with the other people it's just for this particular activity, this is the target audience and we're trying to write something that's as specific and useful to that group.

Again, nothing against or excluding the other people, but thinking about it as a campaign specific thing. I think it makes the whole process so much more straightforward, particularly if people aren't in your position of finding it easy or easier to write and enjoying it. If people are seeing this is an outcome that I want, but actually I'm a little bit daunted or not enthusiastic about the process. Thinking about it as a campaign specific thing which narrows down the scope, targets the audience, focuses the attention a little bit more into what's to include or not include makes it so much easier, but it was.

I took the point as you were saying, that it's definitely not that people are writing the book that is comprehensively saying only what they do. It's that we're trying to start a specific type of conversation and again there's many other things going on. The idea of what to include and what not to include then. So with having the target audience is being relatively dialed in and making that a little bit easier to align the content with the people. What was the thought process around what to include and what not to include, like the journey from someone seeing the book and being given the book three to a quarter action on the back? Talk us through a little bit about that process of you. Wanted to make sure that people knew.

Kara: Right?

Well, what I have been starting now that I have this office space in the Winsor Town Green, is I have a quarterly event called Women, wisdom and Wealth, and it's often at a winery, just because of the venue needs to be much larger. In fact, I just did my quarterly event last Wednesday and there was 45 women in attendance. So it speaks to the need for the information and I focus on health and wealth, and so obviously I speak to the wealth piece of it, but I also say that you have really nothing if you don't have your health, and so I invite what I call wellness warriors in to co-present with me, and that looks different depending on the quarter, but, for example, we talk about stress management and hormones and aging and all the things that we as women do need to understand and educate, and really, just once you talk about the things that you're dealing with on a personal, professional basis, you realize you're not alone, right? So the goal again is to empower women, surround them with other empowered women In fact, I point the phrase empowered women in power women but then also just simply focus on our two greatest assets. So I started with those events and again, kind of it was a process kind of that led me to wanting to produce this book, and it's the subtitles called how to have a stylish and holistic retirement plan a confident woman's guide.

So again, it's to infuse confidence in a woman that they know, at the end of the day, that they're going to be okay. Right, like when I looked at my surviving spouse and said, from a financial perspective, anyway, right, emotionally, physically, I understand you're struggling, but financially you're going to be okay. And we planned for, obviously, a long, healthy life. That's obviously the ultimate goal. But we've also put in, you know parameters, you know umbrellas, if you will, if we had compromise, compromised living or needing some former long-term care or ultimately, upon your demise, to your beneficiaries or to your loved ones. So really it's just to empower women with the education. In fact, often I open up those workshops by saying if you don't have a man, you need to have a plan, and if you have a man, be part of the plan, have a voice and know what it is that you do have or don't have.

And again, no judgment. That's the other thing I often will hear is I might be too young or I might be too old. And no, that's not the case. Neither is true. You know when's the best time to plan a tree, of course 20 years ago. When's the next best time? Today? My youngest client is 20. My oldest client is 103. So and clients come to me too A lot of times. I know them because, again, I'm a native and there's zero judgment of anything. What you have thus far, there's all that we can solve for, is what we know today, and then we make plans and then just accordingly, as life ebbs and flows, and so and of course I always maintain that most confidentiality I let people know. I mean because, again, we are in a small town and I just say you know, it's just like your doctor. I use that analogy often because some people can relate to doctors all the time, just like they are held to the same confidentiality perspective requirements as well that idea of the no judgment.

Stuart: It was interesting. Back in a previous career I did some financial what do we call it? So it's part of their FSA, which is the UK's equivalent, the financial regulator. So I was on the IT side, not on the enforcement side or the policy side, but the organisation would go out to other organisations and do education events just around financial literacy and as someone who'd been in the business for 20 years and just had a general interest in it, it seemed like a very basic introduction, which was the point of it. But it was surprising. I maybe did 10 or 12 of these.

It was surprising every time that the language, which seemed very superficial and basic to us, was complicated and confusing to other people and, I think, just the nature of the industry, either intentionally or unintentionally. Some of the language that's used around financial products is almost intentionally confusing Things, concepts, that are relatively straightforward to understand if you just use plain English. Once you start using the English, the industry language, it makes it more complicated. And then, of course, like you say, you add in all of this baggage and judgment and pressure and fear and perception that there's a lack of education or people feeling stupid about it. It's such a disservice to if people aren't introduced to the conversations that you're having with them. That really helps them understand. Now is the best time to do something about it, no matter where you are, and the steps that you can take can be relatively straightforward. So did you find a similar thing? It's that once you start bridging that gap and making people feel better about the questions that they're asking, did that really start to accelerate the conversations? Yeah, absolutely.

Kara: In fact, I've been asked and would love to speak to the high schools and colleges because nobody is teaching our young adults about financial planning. And I talk and I really do to your point. Try to dumb it down and talk in layman terms about financial planning. So when we talk about the coveted retirement account being the 401k and IRA and the difference obviously is one's in player, sponsored, and one's not, and we have been taught to believe that is where we should be putting our retirement dollars. But if you really think about it and digest it and I did this whole video talking about the minus recalls of the buckets in wine country I call it the wine glasses but tax, now tax free, and then tax deferred and what the differences are. So a 401k and IRA is like kicking the can down the road in terms of taxation and you're adding money to the can as you go and at the end of the road I'll say I'm holding out his hand and say, well, I didn't charge you on a dollar, but now I'm charging you on $100. And so clients seem to resonate with that. They understand. And then, of course, taxes by percentage are going up. Right, we're going to sunset in 2020, the Trump tax laws are going away. Plus, we added $14 trillion to our national debt with the pandemic and the stimulus packages, and then further we've got a problem with our social security funding, all the baby boomers pulling on those benefits. Where is that going to come from? And then you know, we're also approaching election year, so taxes by percentage are going up.

So one of my famous examples as a client who came to me having quite a bit in our 401k, thinking she was doing the right thing by maximizing her contribution. So I simply asked her well, what's your company match? And she said dollar for dollar, up to 4%. She was contributing 15. So I said, well, let's take the 11% you're already contributing and let's repurpose it to a tax-free strategy. That's not a Roth, but it does grow tax-free and distributes tax-free. But unlike a Roth, it doesn't have income limits, contribution restrictions and, most importantly, accessibility. You can access it prior to $259.5. And it was going to change her retirement income by $7 million just by repurposing what she was already saving. So it's just those kinds of conversations you're not going to get at Wells Fargo Bank or Merrill Lynch or Ever Jumps, because the traditional buckets and the cookie cutter mold.

Stuart: people almost then check the box I'm doing something, someone else is telling me it's the thing to do. I've got that confident and comfortable feeling that it's all being taken care of. But unless it's actually case by case addressed in a with an expert, someone that can see the holistic picture, that difference is astronomical, and even more so over the long term. If you get to talk to people early, so having conversations with kids out of school, ours, the youngest is 14 and the oldest is 25. So the middle ones, as they're just going into the workplace out of school, saying to them, just start small, start doing something, and the benefit of the long timeframe can really account for there's not almost no bad decision that you can make, can just start with something and then dial it in over the years. It's quite a difference.

Kara: And that speaks to my approach. So my process includes gathering information on the front end and, again, different than a CPA, where output equals input they're driving a car through the rearview mirror, I'm looking at the windshield. How do we appropriately change your situation, the input to positively impact the output? So I do ask for a lot of information on the front end because, again, just like your doctor, I need to know about your overall financial history to be able to appropriately prescribe. And what I then do is show clients okay, this is your status quo. If you keep doing what you're doing, this is what your future self looks like. And are you on track to meet, exceed or fall short of your goals? And even if you're on track to meet or exceed, I can say with the almost 100% confidence I can still improve upon those results by the planning that I do. And so and I've created such a name for myself now that actually CPA firms are reaching out to me to ask them to help them with their text planning for their clients.

Stuart: Fantastic and actually that's a great subject as well in this idea of kind of complimentary non-competing businesses the fact that as you're out there talking to your audience, there are other firms out there with their audience and where it crosses over huge opportunity to kind of get a synergistic result of more than the individual parts Right. A good friend owns an ICDISC tax planning firm which is so niche I mean you wouldn't as outside you wouldn't imagine that there was a dedicated business for it. But their benefit of being specialists in that area means that they can work in a non-threatening way with CPAs because they're just focused on their area. I imagine that's the same for you. Specializing in this approach, which is something different than a number of them try to offer that complimentary service. Really kind of ties in well. Do you see that happen quite often.

Kara: Well, you know, when I actually named my company Focus Strategic Solutions, that was very intentional. Focus is a pun I use all the time. You know. Get focus, let's focus on your future self. And actually it is an acronym that stands for various things, but strategic is referring to the trust advisor team, right? So in an ideal world I'd actually speak with their clients CPA, attorney, other financial advisors, insurance agents, estate plan attorneys, etc. Because as a team we can really support our clients, you know, at the utmost ability to create what it is we're trying to accomplish. So that's strategic. And then solutions means there's one side that does not fit all and, depending on what the clients unique goals and objectives are, there's multiple different options, right? So Focus Strategic Solutions is the name of my firm, and again, that's very intentional, and one size does not fit all. So I come to, you know, clients come to me and I don't know necessarily what I'm going to be offering them until I dive down deep into what it is that they're all suddenly trying to achieve.

Stuart: The breadth of services that you can offer. Do you hit a point where you need to reach out to other partners to provide additional services that are out with scope of what you do, or is the majority of what you do in scope of the nature of the things that they might need? That kind of overlap as well as incoming is outgoing as well.

Kara: Sure, well, I do ask on the front end who those other professionals are, and then I ask if those relationships are working. And so I'm very respectful. If the relationship is thriving and they are happy with that person and their service and the results, then I want to collaborate with them on the client's behalf. If they're not happy, for whatever reason, then I do have resources that I can refer them to and then together we can work for that client. So, again, if I don't know them, I reach out and introduce myself that we've now have a mutual client and then, of course, if they're not happy, then I've got a referral source and a network of other you know professionals I can refer a client to.

Stuart: Again, come back to a holistic approach. It's so much more beneficial. I really like the doctor's analogy that you use of saying that if you are trying to sort out a medical problem, you really want the doctor to know absolutely everything. So there's no ambiguity in the same situation here. Looking at the book itself, then, so we've talked about the use case of physically giving it to people. I'm guessing that some of that is along with the events, what going into the project, what other ways? Were you thinking about using it at the end? Or were you thinking about using it at the end? Or did you just want to get, want it to get created?

Kara: No, I am very much have thoughts on how I'm going to use it. I do lead with that and try to get clients. Again, I gifted this book, power of Zero, my example there was 500 to 500 people. Now did all of those clients or all those people become clients? No, some people just simply want the book because they want the book. Some people want the book for the information and they may take that to their existing advisor, all of which is okay. And then, of course, some people have become clients, and not only that, but raging fans.

So my goal is to gift the book, just similar than I have in the past, and that's to even perfect strangers. But then also at the events. And then also I'm going to be offering vouchers of free time, like free consultations, to accompany the book that my clients can give to their centers of influences, their friends, their family, their colleagues, etc. Just again to empower them with information. And if they become a client, then great. If they don't become a client, then great. I just want people to know, to understand and to have their B education about financial planning, because there simply just isn't at this moment.

Stuart: Right and again, that's another benefit of it being so tailored. It's very obvious who the audience is. Again, for this specific campaign, it's not here's a book of general financial advice. It's here's specifically a book to empower other women, and the clients you have that fall into that category almost certainly know of other people who would benefit from it. The idea of those orchestrated referrals and the so many opportunities, once it exists, to say to people, even on calendar based things, so tax return time or end of year or new year's resolutions, or April 15th deadline, the extended deadline, all of these things in the calendar where it makes people think about their financial planning elements, the fact that you can reach back out to the list and say, oh, by the way, if you have anyone else struggling, here's a copy of the book that you can give to them, being able to orchestrate it in a friendly way. It's leading with the information, leading with value first.

Kara: Right, and that's important. And again, another differentiator, because oftentimes financial advisors have specific minimum net worth that they require a prospect to have in order to even talk to them. Again, different than what I do, I help literally anybody, and the reason for that is twofold. One is I was once getting started having a family, buying a house. I wish somebody would have held my hand at that time.

But then two, you never know who they know, and one of my largest excuse me, one of my smallest accounts, that I was helping her with debt management and expense budgeting and all the things refer me to one of my largest accounts. So again, just do the right thing, even when nobody's watching has served me very well, personally and professionally.

Stuart: Yeah, that idea. I think that would serve a lot of people very well across the whole board. It's interesting as well, this idea that you don't know. I mean those people.

We've worked with, people who were another financial planning company up around Detroit. So they, how many years ago would it be 15, maybe 20 years ago? We very much in the college planning, college financing type world, so they had a not small list of people who they'd worked with all of those years ago. But now those same people they're completely out of that audience group. They're not in college planning anymore but they're moving towards the perfect time, towards retirement planning, because they were in their 30s 20 years ago. Now they're in their 50s. So that same audience group has maintained some level of relationship over that longer period, not really from a client perspective but just from a kind of slow burn, reach out, keep in touch type of campaign.

But now we've got the opportunity to reignite some of those people with something that's more timely and useful and relevant for them in the moment, from the book itself then. So we've got a way of reaching out to people who you don't know. Just by offering the book and having out there you've got relationships or referrals from people who you do know, making that warm connection. There's opportunities for all of their speaking, and the social media kind of relate to the book and have that as the next step. Once someone reads and consumes the book, what's the best next step for them to take? Once they've read something and there's something there, what's the next step that you have for them to? I don't even want to say get started, but kind of take the next step towards more of a conversation.

Kara: To get focused. You mean? Well, first off, I wanted to say that the book is not a prerequisite to any meeting, right? So I do have clients that say, well gosh, give me a book, I will never pick it up. So I want to just flush that out. That's not something. That's not a requirement that one reads the book. But the next step should you choose to read it or not would be to schedule what I call and explore one conversation.

That is a completely preliminary 30 minute phone call that I kind of coin like. It's like a speed date, right, you're interviewing me, I'm interviewing you. Let's first find out do we have alignment philosophically and do we want to continue and have that next date? Right? And so if we agree, both agree, to proceed, then the next step looks that I then ask for information, again looking at, I've got a questionnaire that I asked them to complete, just again similar to a medical questionnaire, and then together I with my team, I put together that status, close situation, and then I invite them into the office and of course, if they're not local, then I assume just works just fine, because I want to share my screen and I go through all my input so they can see, this is what you told me on the questionnaire, right, this is what you, these are your assets, this is your age, this is what you've been doing thus far and this is what that looks like. And then I give them my proposal and how much greater that can then yield.

The other objection I often get with clients may or prospects, excuse me, may say well, I already have an existing financial advisor and my objection to that is I'm not surprised most successful people do. But just like when you go to your doctor and your primary care physician gave you a terminal illness, would you seek an opinion from a specialist? And likewise, you know, my. My approach is so very different than normal financial advisors because I focus not only on asset allocation, which is important, but on tax diversification, which I would argue is almost more important. Also, on, you know, most advisors look at accumulation, which again very important. How do we get up the mountain? But are they like poised and ready to get you down the mountain in terms of distribution? You know I'm looking at efficiencies with distribution. How do we get your assets back to you during your lifetime with as least taxation as possible, to improve cash flow and ultimately to your family and not to MPH.

Stuart: The family point is a good one there as well, because being having an established footprint within a local area, the fact that you do know these people and have a long term relationship with them, I mean it. Just all of those elements reinforce. Not that it's essential in this day and age I mean we're talking on opposite sides of the country at the moment, so not that it's essential but there's definitely a continuity of care to keep the medical analogy going, there's a continuity of care to those people and their families and I think, looking at it in that holistic way, but anyone who's got an interest in doing more than just a cursory check in the box and putting some money in a pool of, in a bucket of something, then that must really add to the connection that you have with people and just reinforce the fact that you're in it for the long term, just like they are.

Kara: That's true. In fact, I always say people say you name Kara or Kara, and I'm like you care about me, I care about you. So that's a good, easy way to remember it, because, it's true, I've been in practice for over two decades, so I certainly feel like I have expertise. However, having said that, I still have a coach and I think that's important to note as well, because even professional athletes have coaches and so I again have the expertise behind me.

But yet I am somewhat young still, and I'm going to be around long term for my clients to exercise the plans that we're putting in place, which is important, and so every year at a minimum, I review the existing plan and decide like is it on track to still meet your current needs, or are you playing a trip around the world, or do you have a wedding you're going to be funding, or is something changing in your life to the better, or hopefully not the worst? But that happens, life happens, and so we need to adjust the plan accordingly, and so my relationship is long term, hence the speed date right. I want to make sure that I am enjoying this relationship as well, because it's going to be for the long term.

Stuart: And brings us back to early on in the conversation when we were saying that's the opposite of being in the traditional large business sense of sometimes you don't really get the choice of who you work with. You just have to. You've got a roster of clients that you're working through, okay. So, with all that in mind, and one question I'd like to wrap up with and then we'll make sure that we give people links so they can get in touch with you and see more about what you're doing but the process of using books in the business so you've used a bit of a combination of someone else's that you're using a joint one, and now you're out and is there anything throughout that process that has been a surprise in terms of using books as a marketing tool, either you own or other people, I don't think, a surprise.

Kara: I feel like it's held helped me build credibility because I think when you say that you're an author of a solely you know book, I think that does yield to the additional you know expertise that I might have. So in the process 90 minute books I've been pleasantly pleased with the process itself. I wasn't quite sure what to expect and there's been very thorough and thoughtful and efficient and effective steps along the way. So the process has been somewhat very efficient, I'm very hopefully effective.

Stuart: That's it. Thank you for that. This isn't the reason why I do podcasts with people to hear nice things, but it's always nice when it happens. The point you were talking about is establishing its credibility and it has an energy bigger than the thing itself I always refer back to.

We did a podcast a couple of months ago now with Paul Ross, who's a podiatrist. So he had again a couple of books and the most recent one was a solo one, similar to yourself. But his latest book was my Damn Toe Hurts and it was podiatrist procedure. So again, a very niche book but relatively short, relatively kind of. That outcome is a surgical or a medical procedure, so there's only so much you can tell people in the book. It's not really a self-help type book, but so it's relatively to the point. But he'll have people coming in and saying, yeah, I'm here for my appointment, oh, you're the person that made the book. They don't make the connection beforehand because there's a couple of people in the practice. So it's always interesting to hear people talk about that element books.

I think we always talk about ourselves as a marketing company, not a public Marketing, published company. The fact that books work so effectively it's almost Continental. We weren't looking for use case for books. It was what's the use case for engaging people in a book is the way, but it's always interesting to see that even in 2023, when self-publishing has been a thing for years, it's not the process itself isn't technically rocket science. It's a pain in the neck sometimes, but it's not rocket science. But still, with the audience out there, it has a power greater than just the fact that some words are written on a page and Reestablishes or establishes you as the person giving that and creating it, as an authority.

Kara: Well, right, and I again, I just want to leave with education and integrity in my heart and so just to empower people with information, and Hopefully that's provokes enough, you know, thought and interest to speak to me directly. But what I do also say is I look at everybody as my own family member. If you were my brother, what would I suggest you consider? Or my own mom? You know, I tell people all the time like this one my mom has, or this is what my own son has, or Whatever that might be, to make them relate to the fact that, again, this is in your best interest, and so I just want to maintain that integrity.

Stuart: So, as people are listening to this, watching along, where can they find more about you and the work that you're doing?

Kara: Sure Well, my website is focus strategic solutionscom. I am on social media as such focus strategic solutions Facebook, instagram, my team and I are actually about to launch up some podcasts Ourself, and then, of course, working on TikTok and all the other Platforms. Right, so I can be as hip as all of them out there right.

Stuart: What's that? It's all of those 20 year old clients right, exactly Exactly.

Kara: Luckily, my kids are helping me with that.

Stuart: That's asking what. We'll put links to all of those in the show notes so, as people are listening or watching along, I'll be in the podcast app on the website. Thanks again for your time. I always say that time goes faster, but it really does. It'd be great to check back in down the line, maybe as we get into next year, to see how things are going and what's come from it. And then, as always, thanks everyone for listening. Definitely check out the show notes and follow along with what Kara is doing, and then we will catch you all in the next one.

Kara: Excellent. Thank you, so much do I appreciate you.

Today, on the Book More Show, we're talking with Chris Carlson, a seasoned coach for regional bank teams and author of "Banking on Success - 7 Keys to Extraordinary Success in Relationship Banking."

One of the most valuable ways to start a conversation is by helping people with something they are struggling with today. As a coach, Chris can analyse specific sales challenges and prescribe just the right tool, but his book starts the conversation in an easy-to-understand, universally applicable way with 7 steps everyone can benefit from. Rather than telling people they're doing it wrong or going deep into the psychology of sales calls, he helps people take an actionable step and provides a prominent call to action to continue the journey.

This is a great call as we dive into his perspective on using books and platforms like LinkedIn for business outreach, and we discuss the significance of consistent client contact and developing relationships over time, something that's easy to overlook in a 'get new leads' driven world.

Chris brings a lot to this call. Whether you've finished your book or have it on the list to start before the year ends, there are some great ideas to steal here.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmoor show. It's Stuart Bell here and today I'm super excited to be joined by Chris Carlson.

Chris: Chris how are you doing? I'm doing great, stuart. Thanks for the opportunity to talk to you today.

Stuart: I'm excited to jump on and dive into some things because you're following through with the book and you've got it out there in a way that's particularly interesting. So we'll make sure that we touch on all of that life cycle. But I think it's going to be really valuable for people listening in, either if they have a book themselves already, to look at the way that you're using it in a slightly more longer funnel or broader funnel, or if people are thinking about writing a book. I know this isn't the only book that you've written. So as we cover some of those stories about how books have helped you in your marketing, I think it's going to be great. Hopefully, encouragement to help people get started before the end of the year and then they can really hit 2024 on the road. So I think we start from the beginning. Give everyone a little bit of background of view and their organization there.

Chris: Yeah, great.

And people, like a lot of people you know, went to college, had the opportunity to spend four years in the army as an officer, came out and I spent the first 19 years of my what I call my civilian career on the insurance business, working my way up from a local rep all the way to a national sales manager and then 20 plus years ago.

I mean, my affinity has always been coaching and I went into the coaching business and have been focused on the financial services arena those 20 plus years. But being laser, being focused on the banking industry and our organization, the Relationship Banking Academy, is we work with what I would call regional sized banks. You know that have some heft to them in terms of personnel and so we're not working with the smallest of banks, although we have and we've worked with the biggest of banks. But we found that our niche is in that regional bank where they definitely need help with coaching and training and we really believe that our systems and processes, you know, really help them. So really excited to be able to specialize in that space and go really deep with those organizations.

Stuart: It's interesting, isn't it, when people talk about specialization, because there's always this and we're guilty of it as well here always this risk of or concern around missing out or losing other business. But the reality is when you can really dial in the message that talks specifically to the audience, and then obviously you pick up business on either side. It's not like you're turning those people away, but talking about niching and specializing. It's really just in that outreach and the communication side of things. So picking up on the slightly smaller or slightly large ones, but understanding that it's the sweet spot in the middle, and I guess one of the reasons for that is because that's where you can make a real, the biggest difference. The challenge in the smallest end is that they're constrained on resources, both people and money, and at the bigger end they're constrained by processes and systems and just the corporate message. So I guess it's really that middle bit that you can make a difference to.

Chris: It definitely has worked for us, and one of the things I learned a long time ago through failing is you can't boil the ocean. Although I love the words that you use fear and missing out. We think, oh, we miss one opportunity. But the reality is, if you say yes to something, then you got to say no to something else, and so I think it's very important that, whatever line of work that you're in, that you really understand who your target market is and we talk about that actually in the book of being laser beam focused on your markets, if that's going to get you further faster.

Stuart: Right, that's a good transition into the book. So then this idea of sharing with them the ideas, that starts the conversation that they can have with you. So the book titled banking on success, talk a little bit about the audience for that and kind of where in that funnel of talking with these medium sized organizations that the book comes in and then conversation, yeah, so it's a great question, stuart, and when we work with the banks, our customers typically we're working with business bankers and commercial bankers.

Chris: We are not called in that often to work with the retail side of the bank. You know those branches. If you will Doesn't mean that we don't occasionally work with them. So I was really thinking about that business banker, commercial banker audience where they're out there calling on businesses, calling on professionals, calling on large organizations to help them in their financial journey.

And what I know is that the overwhelming majority of bankers that I run into they're hardworking and caring and individuals, but unfortunately, with so many things coming at them, they tend to be very reactive. And what I've noticed is the very best bankers, the most successful bankers, obviously they have to react, but they have put together proactive systems and proactive plans which allow them to rise and they're the cream in the crop. And I said, okay, so how do I get that message out, you know, to a broader audience? And that's where I kind of came up with the idea of the seven keys and then I transferred that into the seven m's and so I have seven m's that I share in my book about what I really think that a banker needs to do proactively to achieve extraordinary results.

Stuart: It's interesting because I think it's such a. It's such an idea that isn't new for people. The broad idea, not the specifics. The broad idea of being proactive. It's more beneficial in terms of kind of orchestrating the results and planning ahead of time. And everyone says that it's more cost effective and time effective to kind of plan it rather than react to it.

But I would say for the majority, the vast majority of business owners, of people who are responsible for filling their own book, the reality is that just the day to day, defy of burning, means that we're way more reactive than we want to. So to be in your position of not necessarily having to sell the concept, because that's understood, but selling the way of the introduction to the idea of achieving it, it's an interesting position. It's not necessarily creating the manifesto of why being proactive or why orchestrating things is a good idea, but more along, this is how to do it. You've tried to do it before perhaps, and fails. This is a better, more straightforward, a simple way of doing it. Is that right in the way that you find, when dealing with the people, that is an idea that they've got already, or is that just my guilt coming out, because I know I should be better at it myself.

Chris: You know, stuart, I think there's an old expression. I know you've heard it many times. You know about the guide from the side as opposed to the sage from the stage, and I think there's so many sages out there. But what really has to happen and this is true even for the most successful people is they still need that guidance to make sure that they don't chase squirrels and they stay true to their mission. And that's why, you know, people like you and Dean Jackson and Dan Sullivan exist, because even the best, most successful people still need that guidance so they can latch on to a concept. But who's holding them accountable, or what tools are there to hold them accountable? So I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to take the first step with the book is kind of overall view, but then let's go deeper on how you actually accomplish some of these things that you want to accomplish.

Stuart: Right, just on that point quickly. That's so true. I've never particularly thought about it in that way before and that's saying I can try and remember that saying because that's the first time I've heard that. But true in the sense that I've just started working with some LinkedIn guys who I've known for some time and it was almost a. We talked about this idea of you can book through a great way of reaching out to people and getting them on the list, and then you need a way of staying in touch with people over the longer duration, because most people, or a lot of people, aren't ready to go today, but they are ready to go at some point in the future and you just need to marry up.

My experience with the LinkedIn guys is exactly that.

I've known and our business absolute, almost 100% crossover with LinkedIn in terms of a lead generation and an audience, and it's something that I've been so lacks on doing, and it's not because I don't really know what to do or have ideas around doing it, it's just our time and other fires have come up.

So happening to have a conversation with a friend that reminded me of these people and then starting that conversation and engaging them to be accountable and do some of the work a little bit, and I've been doing these books yourself before. It's not like you can't do it. It's not rocket science I would say that to people. But still engaging someone else to do it gives you almost a line of the sand and a reason to do it now, and I guess that's the same with your business and the people that you're talking with. I'm sure this isn't the first time that they've ever thought about it. But having you there to give the direction, to remove the distractions and almost to focus in on the points that make a difference and the funny things around it, that might not be as effective, but you can really laser focus them on what they need to do. The people who you're having that first conversation with, is that the bank, the relationship bankers themselves, or is that more of a HR department or training department in the organizations?

Chris: Yeah, that's a great question, and so traditionally it has been those learning and development organizations within a bank, or maybe there's a higher ranking executive that I run into that gets me in touch with them, so that tends to be where we spend most of our time. But that was the conundrum that I had, stuart, when I was writing this book. I said, okay, that's great, but there's over 4000 banks in this country and I'm not going to talk to the vast majority of those learning and development departments. So how can I help the individual banker who's bank may not know me and or may not want to invest in our particular programs? And that's why, as I started to come with the ideas in the book, I said, ok, theory is great, but I got to have something else, and that's where I came up, and I didn't.

I did these two things simultaneously. I created the banking on success planner. So we take all the ideas that we talk about in the book and then we lay it out to allow them to develop the strategy. And then part of the planner is daily activity, because, let's face it, we all have grandiose goals and you know, there's the old expression it's hard by the yard, it's cinched by the inch. And so what I do is I break it down to a daily activity with the most important things they need to do, based upon the strategies that they implemented on the learnings from the book. So to your point yes, I'm talking to a lot of learning development, but I had to figure out a way. How do I touch those tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands of bankers potentially? But I can help them individually if they want to go forward, even if their bank is not going to do something.

Stuart: That's such a great balance between the two and we often talk about books. Think of them as, rather than in the traditional sense of a book, is this big thing that takes forever to write and once you've written it, that's, it's set in stone. Instead, think about books as almost like a campaign tool, almost like you would in Facebook ads. This tool is fit for this particular campaign and the campaign steps through to these people. So the idea of having some outreach tools that you've got which are focused on learning and development, hr, those types of level of the organization and what they're, because they're, they're criteria or their objectives, that what they're rewarded on their motivations are going to be different from the individuals. But what you've described is having both of those approaches in different ways.

You already have those conversations. Who already got access to those 4,000 or so organizations? But to be able to speak to the individual in a way that's much more tangible and actionable and follow through. And then the planner is backed up by the ideas that are in the book and the book is backed up by action steps they can take in the planner. It's very synergistic in the sense that it's one campaign moving people in one direction, but the two slightly different access points into it. Talk a little bit about how these, how the bank is out there. Then again, visibility of either the book or the planner Is this something that you've got an opportunity to kind of like direct send to them because you can get a list of who they are or the shows and events where they can get access to it, or speaking opportunities that introduce into the idea? What's the access to those people with the tools?

Chris: Yeah, I mean so a lot of things. No matter what tools we develop, is we still have to put together a marketing plan, right? Because just because we publish a book, people aren't lined up outside the office saying, well, I can't wait to get a copy of your book. So you know, one of the things that I've started out certainly the lowest hanging fruit for me with the book and the planner is current and past customers and clients. You know. So what I'm doing is I'm taking a copy of the book and taking a copy of the planner, putting it in a priority mail envelope and sending it to current and past customers and saying, hey, here's what we got. You might be interested. If so, give me a call. They already know, they already know me to know who I am, they know what I can do. So that's going to spur some activity. And maybe that's a speaking engagement. Maybe that's they order many copies of the book and or planner. Maybe they say, hey, chris, we'd like to go deeper with you if we have a current relationship or we want to reengage you. So that's really to me that the always hanging a fruit.

Now I'm also fortunate enough to have, you know, several speaking engagement throughout the course of the year. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to take of enough copies for everybody in the audience of the book, right, and give it away. Give it away and I got to make a comment is when I receive my 20 books from 90 minute books in a bow, by the way, which I am afraid to untie because it's so beautiful, but you guys included another book beyond the book, right? And one of the things that Dean talked about in the book is you're not going to make any money selling your book. Give it away, that's how you're going to get further faster. So in speaking engagements, I'm just going to give a copy to everybody who's in my audience, be it a small audience, be a big audience, they get something.

Then every state in this country has a banking association and that banking association puts on events throughout the course of the year A lot of webinars, maybe one or two live events. So I'm taking a copy of the book, I'm writing a letter and I'm basically saying, hey, here's a copy of my book and here are three talks that I put together as a result of the material in the books. And, if I can ever be of assistance, reach out to me and I know that some will reach out to me, some won't, but I'm going to people who I can have get me in front of a broader audience. And then I talked about that that target my regional banks. I'm going to send a postcard to the appropriate person, you know, promoting the book and the planner. And then, finally, I also have the great fortune to teach at several banking schools across the country and, like I said with my other speaking engagements, I'm going to take a copy of the book, give it to everybody.

And because, what's not? Only does the book give them great information and, stuart, here's what I think is brilliant about what you guys do is, when you turn that book over and you look at the back cover, three ways that they can engage, you know, with the author. In my particular case, you know they can go to the book's website and I give them a PDF about how to do a better job of marketing. They also can go to the website and they get a video of how they can develop and deepen better relationships with centers of influence. And then, finally, I have a link to the banking on success planner. They can buy the planner. So the brilliance of that, because we know a lot of people just look at their front cover, turn it over. But now they've got three ways they can continue the conversation with me and that could be either the learning development people or it could be an individual banker.

Stuart: There's such a great point about people just really 100% of people see the front of it, 90 something percent people see the back and then it's a diminishing curve from the table of contents through the, through the content itself.

Because, Particularly, this isn't. We're not writing books where the book is the product and people are buying the book like they would a Tom Clancy novel or whatever the latest best-selling author is there. The job of work of the book isn't to entertain, although hopefully it's entertaining, but the job of work isn't to entertain. The job of work is to start the conversation and people putting their hand up and requesting it. If they could have a button next to it where they pressed the button and it was like a matrix all the information is downloaded into their brain they would choose that because it's the outcome that they want not necessarily to have to go through the work to do the thing, although obviously that's what everyone has to do. So to shortcut it, to make people feel comfortable and confident that they're in the right place, and this is the obvious next step. That's really the path to move it through quickly.

Chris: And then, stuart, continuing on that is that once you say, hey, go here to get this, then we put them into a funnel so they get additional touches from us and again it just shows that we're adding value. And in my particular case, I think as individual bankers the ultimate would be to get the planner. But so I'll give them opportunity, but I will continue that funnel and then eventually they'll go into the overall mailing campaign. But at least that initial touch is they get more than just hey, here's this, and we remind them. And so, look, I mean, people like yourself and Dean have perfected this over the years and so we're just learning from the very best to make sure that we take advantage of that opportunity with the back of the book to create a funnel.

Stuart: That point you made there about that.

There is the initial funnel because it's attributing the book to real life activities and actions and signals from out there in the world.

You're there, head of the castle of what you do, looking over the power pits down at the world below, and there's groups of people and some of them are raising their hand and saying I'm interested to some degree to be able to identify those and then follow up and then use all of the other marketing opportunities, like the Harvard studies like that, where it was seven the average is seven point something steps in order for someone to take an activity, even if they're the most interested.

The benefit of having the book is that you've now got a framework and a talking point and a consistent message that's a consistent for them to consume but be easy for you to create, rather than having to sit there and think I need to create seven touch points and it could be anything Having seven things that amplify and go deeper and talk about the content that's in the book. The seven steps actually sevens are coming up a lot, particularly because you've got seven ends and then seven touch points. I mean even that is self evident that it's just one message per touch point and then you get into that that comprehensive view. You know.

Chris: Stuart, that's a great point. And there's an old expression you know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I can't tell you. I can't tell you how many times I have heard and seen Dean Jackson talk about 90 minute books. This student wasn't ready, but when I was ready he was still there and that's look. You know Dean has done a lot of research on how long it takes for somebody about the right now buyer and the future buyer. In the overwhelming majority of people are future buyers, so you have to be in in front of them on a consistent basis, adding value. Again, the book is the launch, but then you also. We know people aren't going to just roll over because you wrote a book, but how do you stay in front of them?

Stuart: It's why we love podcasts so much, because as business owners, we've only got so much time in the day, but most of us, if we've been in business for any matter of time, can talk probably more than people to listen sometimes about our subject because we're passionate about it. That's why we're still in business, that's why we start businesses in the first place, and we've got such a wealth of knowledge that putting it in a podcast form gives you an opportunity to send an email to everyone on the list, adding value. Hey, we just released a new new episode. We're talking with this about developing and building those relationships. By the way, if you're ready to get well, every ready to get started is three ways we can help you. Or PS is we just enter in November. Now is a great time to get the book started in order to have it ready for the new year and hit 2024 running. So that idea of staying in touch with people until they're ready, because you can never know.

I talk a lot about the book that's called one bat selling by an Australian guy called Malcolm Gleason.

I think it's an old book, I think it just came back into print.

It was unavailable for a while, but he is a I'm going to butcher this slightly but he's a sales team training person and his main thing is sales teams often fail because they incentivize people to close.

And it's always this Glenn, gary, glenn, last fight, always be closing, but the closing decision unless you're using some of the various tactics to really kind of force the other party the closing decision is in the hand of the client. They choose whether to today is the day for them or not. But as a salesperson, as someone responsible for new business, the thing that you have control of is the touch points, the outreach, the reminders that you exist, the adding value, and I guess actually, as we're talking about it, that is some of the things that you talk about in the book as well, because that kind of proactive outreach, there's a crossover between those two ideas, but, yeah, this idea of keeping in touch with people and then, ideally, you'll be reaching out at the same time that they have the thought or get to the stage where, oh yeah, today is the day and we can move forward.

Chris: I want to just take a quick question. It's interesting. It's interesting you mentioned that because in the business banking and commercial banking world, a business changes banks every five to seven years. So think about that. Why, okay, you know, I mean, so it's not a one call close, and so what a banker has to do is obviously add value along the way to where the blister pops, you know, in the relationship with the other bank. But what tends to happen we've all been guilty of this we get really excited about going after a prospect, things. Nothing happened. So we say I'm going to take a break. Well, if that in this, my particular example of the business changes banks while they're taking a break, they got another five to seven years to wait. So that's why it has to be consistent into your point and the example about the person Australia. Boy, you got to stay in front of them because if you add value, they're going to recognize you. They'll eventually become your customer or client. Doesn't always happen on your timeframe, but it will happen in front of them.

Stuart: And as you were talking about adding value all the way through the, if sometimes people think of, I've heard people say that they want to cut the weed out of the list or cut the chat phone. Just get to the people. I'm only interested in talking with qualified buyers. Well, the whole thing. You don't know who, that you can't tell who that person is. For the in the long arc of history you can't tell exactly who that person is. And the good thing about the broadcast mechanism so we've got now it's not like you have to hand write a letter to each person. So if you've got 10 people on list versus a hundred, well, the other 90, that becomes a big overhead. We're emailing people or we're creating podcasts or we're using social media and it's broadcasting to everyone at once. So having those people on the list, talking to those people in the hope that they do become a client, but knowing that not all of them are it really kind of changes that focus Told before the story of Kenny, a real estate that we work with in up in Cape Town, up in Boston.

So he purged he's. We've worked with him for years. He's a great personal friend. He's down here quite a lot. He purged his list. He wanted to get rid of people who hadn't really responded in five years. So he purged the list and then about seven or eight months later got a call from someone. They left a voicemail so he played as a voicemail. He's the guy on the phone said Kenny, it's Bobby, I'm so glad that I found your number. Something must have happened, I'm sorry. Some reason I got off your mailing list. Anyway, unfortunately my sister died recently so we've got two properties that we're selling, oceanfront properties, so I had to call around a few other agents in town to get your number. Anyway, give me a call back. Kenny purged the list cause he'd never responded, been on the list for eight years. I think we went back and checked eight years nothing, no sign of life. But he'd just been there receiving that value and then, when the time was right for him, he raised his hand.

So this idea that there was no dead leads in the 90 minute book my brother's in there as an example, because it's a high dollar example. It's always funny to read. So he's a yacht broker down in Fort Lauderdale inherited the office of a broker who had passed away. So in the office there was filing cabinets and one file was labeled dead leads and it was just chocked full of like little pieces of paper from boat shows over the years where people fill in their details and stick it in. But he reached out to these dead leads with a nine word email hey, you're still looking for a boat. And then a hundred and eighty six million dollar contracts came off the back of it.

So this idea of there is no such thing as dead leads, it's just people who it's not quite the right time for them. It's such an opportunity to reach back out to them, which circles back to the ways that you were talking about using the book, that folder of you. Talk about reaching out to past clients. There's also all of the people who are past prospects and maybe the dead list of those past prospects. Now it might not be worth financially sending them a copy of it. You might have their details, but reaching back out with an email to those people and saying, ok, we just have brought together. From the years of experience we've brought together in this plan of issues like copy, let me know that's a whole opportunity there, with the existing clients sending them the book and also saying, ok, if you know anyone else in the business. This is perhaps great for people who are one or two years in and are really looking to make a difference, using that as a referral opportunity, the opportunity to reach out.

We've got this concept of known prospects and unknown prospects. So the banking organization people that's a known group of people. So sending the book to those known group, like you mentioned, but then including a cover letter in there. Same with speaking from stage, it's a known audience, so giving them a copy of the book but including a cover letter in there, that just makes it more personal.

The idea of kind of amplifying the asset is here, but you can amplify it for each of the individual situations. By the way that you present it such a good opportunity because it's created. Now you're just looking for the opportunities that you can best use it. It's always fascinating to hear people talk about how they plan to use it and then down the track, how they have used it, because it opens up. I think, as people are listening to this, many people have had the well, everyone who's listening to this really has had the idea that a book would be good for them because that's why they're on the list in the first place. But there's that reluctance or times busy, so hearing you talk about it, hopefully, is then figuring their memory or their idea of how they can actually use it in real time.

Chris: Yeah, stuart, it's a great point because you know I've self-published five books and you know it's not backbreaking labor but it's time-intensive and it can be frustrating at times. So when I was thinking about this book, I said I like the idea of the book, but I don't know if I want to go through that all again, which is when, then, I decided to take advantage of the who, not the how, with 90-minute books. And I tell you what? That is one of the best checks I've ever written in my entire life. And I have to tell you I have to praise your team. You know, christy reached out to me and she did the pre-planning call in the actual interview and what a joy she is. I mean she, I mean brings so much energy and so much joy to the conversation that I was. I didn't want to let her go after we finished the interview. She's just such a great person.

And then, almost immediately, godwin put together the cover of my book and I had a suggestion, but it was just so spot on that I was looking for, he was so responsive. And then Kim did the heavy lifting, you know, with the editing. And so I'm sitting here thinking my goodness, and I've already got the idea for the next book will be under contract before the end of the year to do a second book, and I see a third book sometime next year. It is just a great way to get your message out, and I want to go back to something you said about getting our message in front of an audience. Yes, I could send a brochure, a letter, anything else, to all of the people I talked about, but to have that book attached to that letter is powerful, and I know you've said this many times on their podcast.

Isn't it interesting that the word author is contained in the word authority, so that credibility and that authority that creates when they get that book right, even if they don't read it. But they're saying, hey, here's somebody who wrote a book. So the I really encourage anybody who's on the fence, go ahead and take the leap. I mean, the people at 90 minute books are absolutely amazing. They make your life so easy. And so, stuart, I hope you pass that along to the three people that I touched in your organization Christy, godwin and Kim. They made it a delightful experience.

Stuart: That's it. I mean, that's always good to hear I was joking a little bit before we started recording that starting their calls with authors was really just to share that story, but it's almost become a vanity project. If you're having people say good things, it makes me once a week feel good hearing hearing that back. Absolutely, I'll pass it on Because with the team being remote it's always and not an extra effort, but we have to remember to make it extra effort to share the good news as well as facing up on things that need to be just day to day needs to be finished quicker.

Chris: So yeah, I'll definitely pass it on and make sure that they listen to the episode so they can hear you in the words straight from you and then hopefully, stuart, that the one I do the other book you'll invite me back on, we'll talk about that book and I'll give you the results of all the marketing I've done with this particular book.

Stuart: Yeah, absolutely, I mean definitely. So we've been focused on, as we've been reaching out to people to record the last six or seven months worth of podcasts, as we've done more and more author calls. We've been reaching out Obviously. We've done a thousand or so books now. So we've got a lot of people that we were reaching out to for the first time.

But I've got it on the calendar for the new year to absolutely touch back in with people who have been on the show previously, because it's a nature of the beast, when we were thinking about, okay, who can we reach out to to about on the show, it tends to be the most recent back. We kind of just because that's where Betsy's been scheduling a lot of these, so that's just where our mind is the most recent back. So it's there's only a couple of we've had where we've really been talking about the campaign and the actually reaching out and using them in specific circumstances. So what I'd really love to do in a few months time is circle back with people who have used them at live events, who have sent them out to previous customers, who have got the list of the organization people and used it as outreach, because I think, as we get more and more of those tangible results that we can share with people. Again, it just closes that gap.

Like with your book, we would start off by saying that most people have got an understanding that they need to be more proactive and having some structure and organization would make their results better. But it's just remembering to get around to it. The same with the people on our list. They've had the idea that a book is a great way of generating more business and establishing that credibility and authority. But when they hear the specific stories, hopefully, then it's easier to make that connection and encourage them to get off the fence and get it done. Where can people follow along and perhaps get a copy of the book or hear more about what you're doing? I want to make sure people have got the opportunity to do that.

Chris: So thank you for that, stuart. Well, I mean specifically the book they can go to bankingon success bookcom. The planner is banking on success plannercom and then our overall organization, the relationship bankingacademycom will get you a bigger overview of what we do.

Stuart: Fantastic. And then in terms of the breadth you're talking about kind of the medium sized banking organization. This is the absolute sweet spot. But obviously either side of that people can get value from it. It's just that's not necessarily that reach Geographically all of North America. Do you go and say Canada as well?

Chris: No, just North America. And what's really interesting, you know, back in the day, the only way we could deliver what was just get on an airplane, jump up and down for a couple days and fly home. And with COVID, I mean, people are so much more receptive, you know, to Zoom. You know type meetings, and so we're doing a lot of great follow up teaching with using Zoom, because people can't have us, you know, on campus every single day but to be able to maybe do a bootcamp, get them indoctrinated and then continue the learning, you know, via Zoom. So I think that you know Zoom and all of their competitors have really done a good service to people in our particular industry to be able to deliver content more frequently at a very effective price. So, yes, we travel over the country, work with banks all over the country, but we definitely take advantage of this type of technology.

Stuart: Yeah, that's such a great point as well, isn't it? Because now it's able to deliver value further down the chain. So, in the same way that you might have to charge people 100 units of money to come in for that extended period and be on site, now for those same 100 units you can do something in person but then include some follow up, which really from the effectiveness of what you're trying to deliver. I imagine that regular follow up or check in further down the track or the opportunity for people to join office hours or whatever the mechanism is, but to be able to deliver value beyond just the initial scope of a piece of work just makes it far more effective and a better outcome for the individuals and the organizations.

Chris: No doubt, because I mean, when you do a one day or two day or three day training, everybody gets excited I'm going to change the world. Then they get a phone call from their most important customer who is ticked off at them and they forget everything they just learned. So you have to have that repetition to reinforce what was taught in a live environment.

Stuart: Right. Actually it often happens on these calls as I'm talking. It's triggering things that I've got on a list that I've been meaning to do, and if I actually put a date next to each of the items, it would probably be embarrassing how long ago it was that I thought about it, but the A period of time ago I was thinking we should do the similar here, in the sense that it really makes sense. The podcasts are great, but it's talking one on one. It would probably be beneficial to have an office hours type environment within 90 minute. Books for current clients and past clients. Hey, we're just here to answer any questions. Do it once a month, jump on and just have it as an open call for an hour or two and then, if people have got questions about the books or the campaigns or the audience. So I'm glad when this came up in conversation because it's just reminding me that something that we really should kick off.

And now that I've said it publicly on the podcast, hopefully the accountability to get out there, and that goes fast. As always on these shows, we'll make sure that we put links to the books and to the Academy in the show notes so as people are listening to this or watching along in the video. Either check on the website below or in the podcast notes and then people can click straight through. It will absolutely be a pleasure to have you back on in a couple of months and then talk about another book that we're thinking about and talk about the actual usage of this one and what the results have been. Everyone that's listening really encouraged you to follow the links and check in on Chris and what he's doing. Chris, thanks for your time. Thanks for the kind words as well. I know that the team and the audience are going to get a lot from this, so just want to say thanks again and look forward to catch up with you in the next one.

Chris: So, stuart, thank you, it was a real honor. Thanks, Perfect Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, Dean and I catch up in the studio to talk about the power of non-traditional books to collect all the leads you need.

Compared to the traditional approach of locking yourself away to write 1000 words a day, we talk about the benefits of a 'conversation-starting book' and how thinking about your book as a tool that powers a campaign can generate leads 1753 leads at just $3.53 per lead as we did in a recent Facebook ad.

We talk about the value of the everyday knowledge you already have and how asking the right questions can compel people to raise their hands; we debunk the myth that a book needs to be lengthy to be successful and discuss the impact of concise, impactful books that address potential clients' concerns.

This is a short, sharp shot of getting-it-done thinking!

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Dean: Hey everybody, dean Jackson, Stuart Bell, here in World Headquarters, winter Haven, florida, excited. I want to you know this, a reason I you're here and I wanted to have this conversation because today is November 2nd, right, and I don't know if you know this or have heard of this tradition of nano-ri-mo. Do you know what that stands for?

Stuart: National national. Well, I'll trip everything. National novel writing month.

Dean: And all around the world, there are people who all year build up to this month where the idea is that you start writing on midnight 01 on November 1st and you have to stop writing at 59 on November 30th. And there's, you know, people all over the world get involved in this process and the thing that is, everybody builds up to this moment and do you know or wonder what the drop-off rate is by November 2nd? The number of people. The idea is that you're supposed to write 1,600 words a day.

Stuart: Yeah.

Dean: Yeah, and do you know what the drop-off is of people who fall behind already on November 2nd?

Stuart: I haven't seen the numbers by any of you imagine it's a pretty dramatic Percipitus. Let's call it precipitus. Yeah, and you?

Dean: know, I started to think that because you end up. It strikes me, man, that's a lot of like effort and work to get to a point where you know you're going to. You know, hide yourself away in your cabin in the woods for a month and slave over, turn your phone off yeah exactly Drop out of society for all of these things and I really started realizing, man, there's such, you know.

I look at right now, between now and the end of the year, the strides that somebody could make if, instead of slaving out trying to write a book traditionally, that we went through the process. The reason that I created that, we created the 90-minute book opportunity for people is to make it super easy for them so they didn't have to hold themselves away for 30 days, dropping out of society and counter to the traditional flow. Yeah.

Stuart: The outcome that we're looking for is business owners is to start the conversation, and the way to start the conversation happens to be a book, as the most effective way of doing it.

Dean: Right.

Stuart: But to flip that and get caught up in the whole product being the book in the traditional sense. It just kills so many people yeah. And we've heard of a podcast just before this one at the office with someone who's written five.

Dean: I'm going to look up something to show. Look at the numbers.

Stuart: So I was recording with Chris before Chris Carlson. He's written five books previously, himself not in a strictly traditional sense, but still not using those, and he said this process was the absolute easiest, most straightforward way to create the thing that gets him in conversation quicker, cheaper, faster, more to the point, given that the job of workers getting in conversation with potential clients- and.

I think the challenge that people have is that they say book and in their mind pops up a certain thing and that certain thing is the traditional book, both in their outcome and the process. But the reality is the book just happens to be the most effective way to get into the conversation and if you can shortcut that and not get caught up and bogged down in all of the traditional. So I went through it.

Dean: So we went and went through this process where we did. I've been doing these lead conversion workshops and lead generation workshops, lead getting workshops, and part of the thing that I share with everybody of getting leads is the most reliable number one thing is a book that has a title that your ideal prospects say that's the book for me, right? So about 90 days ago I launched on the lead getting workshop. I went through the process with people to show exactly what, the how to do it right, and show that you could do it in 30 days and get the whole and get the whole thing settled. So I created a book called convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves and conceived the idea by going through the book title formulas that we talk about.

I'll talk about those in a second, but I went through that process with everybody and did the word palette and came up with that title convert more leads what to say to prospects so they all convert themselves. I had our designer Glenn do a wonderful cover where a guy's fishing with his hands behind his head and the fish are jumping in the boat. Right, that's the greatest thing. You're out fishing and the jumper the fish are jumping in the boat because that's, metaphorically, what we're doing.

We want your ideal prospects to jump into the boat and so in the last 60 days we launched that and we've generated 1753 leads for $3.53 per lead for those ideal prospects.

Right Now that I look at it, that if I'm coming into somebody's business and I want to generate leads on a long, you know, on a sustainable basis, if they're serving this as a market, that's going to be in business for the next you know, several years that that's the business that they're in. So the first thing I would say is that if you're doing a hundred weeks is the benchmark that I'd say is I'm looking to say if we could generate leads for $300 or $500 or whatever it is. We just did a catalog with the bike shop here in Winterhaven. You know, doing business is if you can reliably, for $300, fill up a basket with a hundred leads, a hundred people who expressly and voluntarily raise their hand and said is there any doubt that anybody who downloaded a book called Convert More Leads what their desire is? It's pretty much it does what it says on the tin, right? That's the thing.

Stuart: There's no confusion about what they're getting.

Dean: They're clearly expressing pressure, and especially yeah, if somebody's putting together the e-bike catalog, the 2023 e-bike catalog, that's everybody. That's what they want right.

So thinking about this as a process, to know that, while all these people are hidden away in their hidey hole writing 1600 words a day, many of them not going to get to the finish line and chalk it up maybe next year we'll do the same thing. But, you know, while that's all happening, somebody we could get into the process of identify the, your audience. What's the title of the book that they would definitely want?

Stuart: And it's you know different.

Dean: if you're looking for invisible prospects or visible prospects, you know either way how. It's only about how you reach them, and this is the perfect way for gathering invisible prospects, and we've done it for everything from medical things, the A to Z.

Stuart: we've done accountants and we've done Zimbabwe and outsourcers. So literally a thousand books. I mean thank you so much for coming on board, because that allows me to use that metaphor Literally a thousand books.

Dean: Yes.

Stuart: There's not an industry that there's not an example for.

Dean: Right.

Stuart: And to be able to pivot those titles to specifically your case within that. So there's more than one CPA book out there, but each one of them is targeting a slightly different group.

Dean: Yes.

Stuart: There's more than one medical book out there, but targeting a separate group.

So, that first job of work in the sequence is, as you say, getting people to raise their hands. I want that, and then the conversation starts. The book is just the mechanism for moving it, that minimum, viable commitment, the next step in the chain. And to be able to do that in a way that where other people are locking themselves away trying to make this perfect piece before they even put it out in the world. Yes, it's like Mike Tyson Everyone's got a plan until I smack him in the face. Well, get your book out there. You get smacked in the face a few times by the real audience and then so you look at these things, these bundles We've already.

Dean: We've got 1,753 people on the Convert More Leads, some of whom have already signed up for our lead conversion workshop, which is a $2,500 workshop, and others that we have that will move into other things, come into a live breakthrough blueprint or working with me one-on-one. So the idea of the way I look at it is, if we take 1,000 leads for $3,000, how many of those people over the next 100 weeks am I going to be able to help convert more leads? It's such an amazing thing. And then on the next go round, we're creating a book called Get More Leads, so the two bookends of what somebody could need for their business. They're either generating leads and they need to convert them, or they need to get more leads so that they're ready to launch the conversion process.

Stuart: I think there's a lot of challenge that people have because they come to the idea of a book and a lot of people accept that it's a great lead generation tool but then get stuck in this traditional mindset of, okay, well, a book is this thing that authors write away, locking themselves in a cabin and it's difficult and challenging and you kind of PTSD back to homework and redlined from school and all of the challenge and trauma around it. I think so many people underestimate the value of just the knowledge that they've got from their day-to-day activities. I think because we're in the business every day, we undervalue just that basic conversation, starting ways of thinking about things. So instead of being a book would be good, but I do need to lock myself away to get this award-winning piece created. Instead, just ask yourself what are the questions that people ask when they stick?

their head in the door, or when they phone up customer support, or when they what?

Dean: do they need to know to get that process? This is where all part of the whole genesis of the self-milking cow came from.

Stuart: Right.

Dean: That years ago I was running a mastermind group and this is before we started 90-minute books. This was the genesis of 90-minute books that I was already. I had figured out how to write books by recording and transcribing and editing. That's how I did Stop. Your Divorce was the first one that we did like that.

Then I did a book about how we did Stop your Divorce and a whole coaching program around that. But those I was sharing that with the mastermind group and then I was seeing people struggle with it brought up so many technical blocks. Then how do I record with or how do I get this transcribed and who's going to do the edit? How do I design the cover? How do I All these questions that were coming up that caused delay.

Stuart: Right, and I still remember the original.

Dean: I love, I say it. Sean Phillips was in the mastermind group, bill Phillips the brother, and did you ever meet Sean?

Stuart: Yeah.

Dean: Oh yeah, you're part of that too. Yeah, and he may be a guy who's more ADD than me, but he's super smart, knows so much stuff. Talk about what you were just saying. That it's all in there. And so I was coming home from London, I did an event in London, I was landed back in South Carolina, I was going to play some golf with Mike Hardwick at Kiowa and I woke up one morning early I was like 5 am because I was still on London time. It's kind of in a melatonin haze and I was thinking about Sean and I was thinking how you know? Because I just talked to him and he hadn't gotten made any progress and I realized he's got all the information. It's all in there.

Stuart: Yeah.

Dean: He knows it. He could just hook a hose up to his brain and just suck all the information out. And all this, of course, is happening like quickly and the connections were made. I was thinking if I could just milk his brain and then that created this visualization of him as a cow and I realized in that world it's not a dairy cow but an idea cow, a money cow, cash cow. Yeah, and I. That really is what I thought that he's trying. The frustration is he's trying to milk himself, and that's really where the idea of the self-milking cow came from. I immediately proposed to him that I would help him. Do we do the interview process? And that book is still on Amazon today. It's called the Owner's Manual through your 40s and it still is. I mean, it's a great content.

Stuart: Yeah, sean, and I have spoken to him a few times. I love the book. Sean I don't know of Sean back from years ago, the Body of Life.

Dean: Yeah, Body for Life.

Stuart: Yeah, body for Life. He recorded a video with Bill. Body of Work, that's what I was thinking of. If anyone can find that it's well worth watching. But you say that he's got the knowledge in his head because he's his own lived experience as he's gone from his 20s to his 40s. And if someone was sat down with him, if they bumped into him in the coffee shop, got him talking about it for 10 minutes, he would be able to deliver such gems. So the same for all business owners out there. You know the stuff.

you know the five questions that people ask the things that they really should be asking instead, because those questions are probably not the real important pieces, the next steps that they can take and even if you just take those three elements five questions people ask, five things that they should really know or questions that they should be asking and five action steps that people can take. Creating a book that just had those things don't have to think about it anymore than that as a lead generation tool with the right title would fill the funnel. Start the conversations for the whole next three years worth of business.

Dean: And that's all it is. That's what I really want to stress for people. If you look on the 90 minute books website, when we've got the 90 minute book as a, we did a 90 minute book, I've called the 90 minute book and people can get that at 90minutebookcom. And when you opt in for the 90 minute book, the first thing that we see is a video with me explaining the value of a small book, because it's often the two things that I think stand in people's way of getting a 90 minute book is they think or perceive that they need to have a big book, and that's the vision that they have, and it's gonna take a lot of time and effort to create that, without really even knowing whether you've struck the right chord.

Right, and I'm not opposed to the big books, but I think that you can start and we've had some people start with a 90 minute book as version one to get the idea to do the thing, because what we've learned is it doesn't matter to people whether the book is 50 pages or 250 pages when they're presented with the offer of the book. If we run because most of the time we're doing Facebook ads people see a cover. This is a book, I can download it right now. That's the offer and I'm making 100% the decision on. Am I interested in what the title of this book?

Stuart: is.

Dean: So when people see convert more leads what to say to prospects? So they all convert themselves, they say I want that and it doesn't make any difference whether that book is 50 pages or 250 pages for the job of work that we're hiring.

Stuart: Because, although both things can be called a book, both things are printed on paper and they're bound.

The job of work of a book that you're buying off Amazon or from Bud and Noble to be entertained to read the actual content, that has to be a big book because you're competing with all of the other books out there. But the book where the job of work is to those people who download, convert more leads. They want to know the secret to convert more leads. And if the answer was one sentence, tap your nose three times and then turn around counterclockwise and that would yeah, that would be, it's done its job.

So the idea that people get into this traditional mindset trap the traditional trap I'm going to call it that from now on this traditional trap of thinking that they have to write something that competes with other things on Amazon, other things by. It's like people not wanting to start YouTube channels because they see Mr Beast with 100 million followers and think, oh, he's got 200 million.

Dean: Yeah, he works hard for those, he does.

Stuart: Yeah, but it's this idea of oh well, unless it's that level of success, it's not worth it.

When, again, the job of work is completely different, and for people to hold themselves back from not getting started, of thinking that they need to wait till November, clear the calendar, lock themselves away 1600 words a day just to get to an end point, that may or may not hit the mark. The podcast that went live last weekend as we record this one today, was with Kevin Burr. So his first book was kind of like a 20 ideas type book where he was just touching on the 20 points of building relationships with people. One of the 20 was around writing a bio, having a professional bio that you can give to people as an easy way for them to remember who you are and what you do. That idea, when he released the first book, all the feedback that he was getting was about that particular idea because it just hit the zeitgeist of his audience. So the second book that you wrote was specifically doubling down on that and the amplification that he's getting, the opt-ins that he's getting of doubling down on that idea. That resonated with the audience.

We hear all the time people will come and they've spent months and tens of thousands of dollars on other projects that have either stalled or not gone anywhere or turned into a bit of a tar baby of work that they needed to do. When I look at what they've spent and the time that it's taken and thinking you could have done something so much more efficient.

And even if, like you say, you then do go on to double down on that particular project and turn it into a more traditional book and try and get more traditional media to pick it up, starting off with the first version that's out there and testing the audience in a quick and cost effective way yeah, so much more productive.

Dean: It's so amazing, too, that sometimes we don't know what the market's going to respond to. You don't know what people I've often, you know, and I run into it. Sometimes Not every book idea that I come up with is the is a crystal clear winner, but within two or three tries I find one that is dramatically better, you know, and that was. I just had that situation with a reverse mortgage book that, you know, we, the book we came up with, was a book called House Rich, and the difference in, you know, and that's the great thing about testing these things of not writing them in stone, gives us an opportunity to experiment, right, and that's kind of the whole thing. And there was a difference between House Rich with an exclamation mark and House Rich with a question mark. So the idea was joining people in the idea of one of our book title formulas is join the conversation that's already going on in their mind, right? I was just thinking that that's the title, and so we've had a lot of success with these how to know when something makes sense, right, so how to know when it makes sense to refinance, or how to know, in this case, when a reverse mortgage makes sense. And that was with the now the big subhead of House Rich question mark how to know when a reverse mortgage makes sense, image of a house sitting on top of cash buried beneath the house, right.

And that's been a winner, a unqualified winner, that were able to generate those leads in the ten, eleven dollar range. And I know that those, if we can generate a hundred of those leads for and follow up with those people for a hundred weeks, that it's going to be a multiple of the money. It's just stocking our pond with those. So it's funny because the you know, get More Leads with the fish jumping in the boat, is the second book in the series. But the Get More Leads is how to choose the words that get you all the leads you want, and it's the image of all these fish going off to the right side of the book following a sign that says free worms this way, and they're all going off the book into the second book which is then they're jumping in the boat being converted, so I was pretty happy with the way that.

I thought that was pretty clever the way the series jumped together.

Stuart: A great example of horse for sale type of examples that does what it says on the tin and not being clever and not being too ambiguous about what it is.

It's just very specifically. Here's the thing that you want, the conversation that's going on in your head already. Here's the answer to that problem. Talk about a hundred weeks. It's interesting, then, to think about the ongoing the campaign after they've initially opted in, because I think that trips some people up as well, and thinking about the book as the start of the conversation. But then the long term, the 80 of people who convert over the longer term rather than the short term.

That's why we're such a fan of podcasts, because, just as it's easy to create a book based on your own knowledge, being asked questions that you immediately know the answers to, it's also easy to do a podcast where you're talking to people about the same subject, because anyone who's been in business for more than a year probably doesn't have a difficulty talking about the subject.

But, when you sit people down and say, okay, now you've got to write 52 emails to regularly send out to people and deliver them value. And either that or it's go to an aggregator and just get the same generic stuff that everyone else is doing To be able to just simply record a podcast, and I mean, don't need quite such a fantastic studio as one's got here.

Dean: But if you can find one, do it.

Stuart: Yeah, come down to Dolphin Studio.

Dean: If you're anywhere in central Florida, this is the place.

Stuart: But even just doing it from Zoom at home, doing something that you can quickly and easily get that out to people in a weekly message. Here's the new podcast that we recorded, by the way, whenever you're ready, and here's the call to action.

Dean: That's been a great thing too. That that's what we've been doing with people is we've been calling them milking sessions, where we'll do on Zoom record. People set them up so that they can record their answers, to create content from that follow up content. My goal is to get it so that people can just embrace their bovinity and just lean into being a cow and make the milk and come in and get milk. Nobody ever has talkers block right and that's the greatest thing. That's. The biggest secret is that. It's the asynchronous thing that kills people is that setting off the time that they're gonna try and do it on their own but, having it synchronous and scheduled and Involving other people is the power move.

That's how you get the stuff done right. It's not if it was up to you just to organize everything and do it.

Stuart: It's nothing gets done with the best intention in the world, if this is a nice that way my myself included like I can't.

Dean: I have very I've a very proven track record of not getting anything done when I don't have something Synchronous and scheduled. You know that. But the things, the most important things that I do when I think about it, are Synchronous and scheduled like that I do the workshops I never miss yeah, the podcasts when I've got guests are on the thing. Never missed their schedule at a time I've come, you know.

Stuart: Because you're not competing against that bit of your brain that's trying to distract you with other things right. If it's there, someone else has arranged it. You just have to turn up. It's like going to the gym. We were just grabbing coffee before and bumped into Brook, who's one of the owners of a water-sider gym in winter.

I haven't here. I used to regularly go to the gym when I was down here, because it was in the calendar. I had it blocked off. I didn't have to think about going, it was just I need to get out the door and rush down there. Mm-hmm. As soon as that schedule went, as soon as there was some variation in there as soon as the Details.

All that gym is not there anymore. I need to find the other one. And is it on this block or that block? Or what time was a class? All of those things is just enough of a grain of sand To cog up the wheels and then all of a sudden, this other thing is more important.

I need to do this. So I think that trick of I'm doing a lot more work now in LinkedIn than I've done before and that's because I've working with another group of people and Engaging them to keep me accountable and doing some of the work the idea I would have perfectly loved to have done this seven years ago.

It's not like it's a brand new idea and I suddenly discovered LinkedIn. It's just that every time I thought about it, something else came up. So, having the calls with them scheduled, the work that we're doing agreed, having not even so much the accountability but the framework to make sure that it's done, it puts it on rails, and I think that's one of the big benefits of. Something like 90-minute books and something like the podcast that we do for people. It's scheduled and synchronous, it's in the calendar, it's not interrupted and all you have to do is turn up and like you say there's no such thing as talkers block.

Dean: Is there? Do we have a? What do we have in terms of the book title? Workshop Resource for yeah, on the website.

Stuart: I'll link it in the show notes for this episode. But on the 90-minute books website, on the resource tab, there's two workshops in there a book titles workshop, which we just updated that with a newer one, and then the outline workshop as well.

Dean: Is it a video like a zoom one, or audio?

Stuart: the titles. One is a zoom one that we did recently, and then the outline one is a little bit older. That's the conference call on and then, in addition to that, there's the book blueprint scorecard, which lists out there a building blocks of the book.

So single target market title, amplifying subheading, call to action, outline content, and then, after the beyond, the book elements, and then there's a whole host of videos that Go with each of those modules. But that first step of picking the title, that book titles workshop, there's the Zincal where I think that's the focus.

Dean: So let's put a link in the email that we signed about this to the the book title workshop, because I know that as soon as somebody gets the title in their mind, that's the catalyst for gain. That's the toughest thing is Coming up with that. So I know as soon as people get that idea that we can launch into action to Get the rest of it done, be great to go into the new year with your book already in your hand, right.

Stuart: Second of November you know, mean, in the time when all these nano-rimo people are kind of locking themselves away, we can get the majority of it, from your perspective, done the work that we need to do with you for the content, the Conversation with the cover design guys who come down. It design dialed in. All of that can be done within the next couple of weeks, and then we kind of take it and just do all of the work in the background.

Yeah so come January the first, I mean new marketing budgets. Put that towards some Facebook ads with this as the cookie to get people to opt in. Yeah it's the title. It's funny, this kind of traditional trap that people fall into when I hear people talking about Traditionally writing books and then they'll write it all and then I'll go to the publishing company and then the publishing company will go back and forth and back and forth on picking the title and they took right the tail, wagon the dog.

If the much more effective way for us as business owners with the job of work being starting conversations is the title is the first thing. The content then backs it up and makes people, makes the people who have requested it, comfortable enough to then take the action step, take the next step. That's the path not write it, and then we'll work out what to do with afterwards.

Dean: Amen, I love it. Well, I think we've said it all. Yeah, you know, let those other people that hold themselves up in a in their hidey hole and get their book written in a month, but yeah let's click on that link, watch the book title workshop. Get that going and then we're ready to help you start your book and run into the new year with a whole stock, your pond, full of the right prospects for you yeah. I love it. Very exciting it is perfect.

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Clare Price, CEO of Octane Growth Systems and author of Smart Marketing Execution, about leveraging books as strategic business tools.

We had a great conversation about how she created a framework based on her work and turned it into a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners centred around a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation.

It's a great example of 'Naming and Claiming,' an approach allowing you to create tangible and documented elements to ensure project success, as well as developing deeper connections with clients to increase business success.

We wrap up talking about her experience using her book to introduce her system and how that supports her licensing and certification programs.

This is a great episode with some really valuable insights into scaling an idea by owning your approach.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got a super exciting guest, someone I was introduced to on LinkedIn actually, we had a great conversation and then a podcast was the obvious follow-up Clare Price from Octane Growth. Clare, how do you do?

Clare: I'm doing great, Stuart. Thanks very much for having me today.

Stuart: No problem, it's a pleasure. I'm excited about this conversation because I think it's going to be a good illustration for people on the usefulness of having a book, because it's something that you've used a couple of times in your business and when our conversation started the idea of a podcast or I don't think I even knew that you had a book when we were first introduced so it's a real benefit, I think, to share with everyone. Now that's kind of come out and we've got an opportunity to talk about it a little bit more. Why don't we start by going into a bit of your background and share kind of your journey in the business and we can then bridge into the book and the framework, which I'm really excited to share with people?

Clare: Right. Thank you so much, stuart, I really appreciate it. Claire Price, I am the founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, and we work with marketing consultants, fractional CMOs and agency owners who want to do more with their clients, building a high quality deliverable in half the time. We believe that the days of just doing straight marketing activity are over, and the companies really need to change into and transition into a marketing operating environment and operating system in order to be successful in today's market, and so we've developed one.

Stuart: And it's exciting the last show that I recorded as we were recording today it was yesterday but it'll be the previous week in the show world we were talking a little bit there about the idea of creating frameworks as an easy way for people to understand and almost give milestones from moving forwards. So I think in the fractional world, almost more than the just the full-time employee world fractional owners or fractional providers really need more frames to be able to scale, because the nature of the business is more kind of scale dependent than it is perhaps for in-house people. But obviously there's a benefit across the board. The framework that you've got. I don't talk a little bit about that. Obviously we'll give links to the book so that people can grab a copy of it later, but just at a high level let's kind of introduce it and then we can dive into it a little bit more.

Clare: I would love to.

I do want to second what you just said about fractional and needing operating systems.

One of the biggest issues and I made that transition myself several years ago that people have when they decide that they want to move into the fractional market is they're moving from a corporate environment where they have a lot of resources and they have a big team and they can delegate, into a situation where a lot of it is all on them, so they have their experience to offer, which is a great gift to small business owners, because more and more small business owners need that high level of corporate thinking to be provided to them and fractional CMOs can do that. But in addition to that, they also need a way to help that business and to move forward and I think systems and frameworks is the way to do that. And that is actually why I developed my system, which is the Octane Gross System, and it's three components it's a strategy component, an execution component and an automation, and the reason we call it an operating system is because we bring those three things together, integrate them for our clients and for the consultants that are licensing the system.

Stuart: It's interesting actually and never really thought about it before, but that mirror is my experience.

So I moved out of a corporate job something years ago now and moving that was one of the big surprises in a way. Moving from an organisation I was on the IT side of the house moving from an organisation where you not only had resources but also more people, bringing a commonality of thinking. We're in the project management space, which I don't know how it's in the US, but in the UK that's pretty structured as well around certain frameworks and then all of the members on the project, all of the members on the team, were all thinking in that same way. So your individual responsibilities might be pretty broad and there was a lot of work to do, but at every point that you intersected with someone else there was a commonality of language and approach, and that is really something that is not replicated without systems like yours in the smaller business worlds. So I think it's an outsized benefit that is often overlooked. It's not just the individual parts of the expertise, but really how they stitch together.

Clare: I think it maximizes the ability of a fractional consultant to use their experience, because one of the things that is a struggle when you first especially when you first get started or you're in this first couple of years of working with clients is how do I get what I need from the client, how do I get the client to tell me about their ideal customer? How do I get the client to tell me what their story is? And one of the things that we've done with the Octane Grose system is we have developed a full set of tools, assessments and worksheets that we have then taken over the last 10 years and proven will produce the data that in probably 80 to 85 percent of the data you need to produce those deliverables for your clients.

Stuart: And that's the thing, isn't it?

Taking all of that learning and distilling it into something that's useful and actionable. I really like the three tiers of the framework, talking about strategy, execution and automation or amplification. There are three areas and almost building on them from one to the other really helps kind of set the scene and then move their engagement forward. And almost I mean we're talking about the fractional owner's side of things and how that could be implemented. But from the business owner's side of things as well, knowing that there's some, they can see the signposts of where the engagement is going and where we're trying to get to. So it's not just turning up to a meeting and laying the track as you go or not seeing the bigger picture from the start. It really seems like it would be a benefit on the owner's side as well as the fractional side. Do you get much engagement isn't that a word? But much uptake for this type of product from owner operators who are trying to do it themselves, as well as implementers who are trying to do it on behalf of others?

Clare: Well, that's who we typically work with, because we eat our own dog food, as they say, or drink our own champagne, as someone else puts it, which I like a lot better because we are also my team's also fractional CMOs. So we are continuing to work with small business owners. We do have clients that want to do a lot of it themselves, but what we do in our approach and I think it's really we found a sweet spot, stuart, and that is we call it client collaboration, because in a traditional consulting model which I came out of the consulting world I was a research director for Gartner for 10 years and the typical consulting world is have the discovery call with the client, go away, disappear behind the curtain, produce the deliverable, come back and hand it off to the client. The issue with that is the client really doesn't know what you're doing, and when they don't know what you're doing, particularly in that mid-sized market where budgets are always tight and we always have to make choices about what we spend our money on if I don't really understand what you're doing, do I really know the value that I'm paying for?

So what we offer is what we call client collaboration, and so, with all of our tools. The client and the consultant are working together to produce the deliverable, so they take it step by step. We use a Canvas model, so if you're familiar with something like Lean Stack or the OnePage Business Plan, we use a similar model approach and then, as we walk through each cell of the Canvas, the client and the consultant are working together to create the deliverable. The consultant adds their expertise, their evaluation, their analysis to the final deliverable. But the client has an opportunity to not only buy in to what they're doing, but also create the value create their own value and, of course, it makes it a lot more important to them and a lot more likely that they're going to go through with the implementation.

Stuart: And that's such an overlooked element to the whole success of the project. I think so many people get stuck in, particularly coming from the big consulting side of the world, because it's very transaction. You're responsible for the deliverable piece. This big team are out there onto the next job before you've even started the first one. So whether or not an organization ultimately uses it is almost secondary or irrelevant because you've moved on to the next task. But in a small business world, a medium business world, where you've got a long-term engagement, you're more connected with the people because it's actually the checkwriters are the people that you're working with to have that buy in and hopefully then increase the likelihood that something will happen from it. It's not just the work done but there's an actual useful business outcome to it that really makes a difference in the success of others, or only getting paid if the client gets results. All of those talking points that management theories will spit out as a good way of running a business by having that tie in from the start really makes much more of a connection the framework that you've got. So we have a lot of conversations with people who are in similar situations. They may be not on the fractional side of things or service providers, but they've certainly got a framework that they use within their business that if they could quantify it and share that with clients.

I often one of our friends in the world is a guy called Joe Polish.

He owned a carpet cleaning business years and years ago when he first started out, and one of the things that he would do was a room by room carpet.

I'm tripping over on what he calls it the pressure of thinking of the name. It was a carpet analysis when they go in and clean. So rather than going in and saying, oh yeah, the carpet is dirty, it needs cleaning, he would go in and draw out a grid and then mark on his estate and his aware and then give that to the client as evidence of oh, it's not just a finger in the air that you need assets. Here's the actual evidence that it's needed. So, similarly with your framework, it's a documented framework that not only tells people that, hey, we know what we're doing and we can do stuff, but here's exactly the steps that we're going to follow so long way, built into the question which is how easy was it to take what you've done and the knowledge that you've built over the 10 years and turn it into a documented framework. Was that relatively straightforward or was that quite a lift to just formalize it in that way?

Clare: It was actually a self-hosted process I produced in 2012,.

I produced a series of five playbooks their PDF playbooks I'm no longer available, but they were the start of this system brought those out to the market and was able to really learn from that structure what was workable at the small business level.

Because one of the real challenges with doing systems and frames if you're a system analysis person, you are typically an analyst, you're a complex thinker, you are a designer, you're a creator, all a visionary. In many cases, your client is in the weeds and so they're not going to take the time to spend a lot of think time on figuring out how to do the marketing, for example, that you would give to them. What they want is they want a solution. So what we had to do is we had to figure out how can we make this easy for small business owners, medium for busy businesses whether they're 10 million or 50 million, they're definitely moving at 1,000 miles an hour. How can we make it so that they can easily get the value and get the results that they're looking from this framework, from the system? And that's where the development of the tools came in, and those did take multiple iterations to get them to the point where they're really producing the kind of data that we're looking for.

Stuart: Those iterations were there iterations with clients? It was kind of a refinement process, or was it show yourself in a dark frame, yeah?

Clare: pretty much all with clients and all with clients in different vertical markets. We've tested this system with clients in 22 different vertical markets, everything from an apparel startup to a truck, a major trucking company in the Sacramento area, where I just moved from a few years ago from Sacramento to Raleigh. So working with different companies, different types of people, different company requirements is, I think, what has given this really the power of what we're able to offer.

Stuart: And testing it in the real world. That's such an old world model of locking yourself away and creating something behind closed doors I mean, I guess, unless you're Apple trying to create the next piece of hardware in secrecy for 90% of us out there in the real world as business owners engaging with real people, the far more successful way of doing it is to start with the first contract, the first piece of work, and then move and develop kind of iteratively. But in the real world I think it's very difficult to justify just closing away and holding off on a project for multiple months or even years in the hope of hitting the perfect one in secrecy and it being a home run.

Clare: Could not agree with you more. I think that the real people are going to use this real people. You need to have real people's feedback and experience. That's what we're doing right now. We've launched the first cohort of our training program and we have 44 beta users who are really giving us a good, the bad and the ugly of how this is working for them, so that we can continue to evolve it, because the goal is to make this so easy that both the business owner and the consultant can just wear it like a real comfortable suit of clothes.

Stuart: Yeah, that familiarity and every console has been worked out in the real world with the real feedback. I think it's a conversation that we have on a number of times around the books because we're really trying to go for that lean approach of a quick process of get the first version out there and then pivot or tweak or change based on the real world feedback, as opposed to the traditional world of publishing which is tens of thousands of dollars in months and months of time and therefore it does need to be. It's kind of like a one-shot deal. This much more agile, adaptive approach really means so you get it out there working. And I mean we were talking to a friend last week about Facebook ads and testing there and they were saying that it really is. They're doing a big scale like millions of dollars a month budget and they were saying it really is.

You have to get through 90% of the failing ads just to learn the 10% of work, but it's the 10% that pays for the 90% and then beyond and it's. I guess it's quite daunting because when you think back to writing things in school, you have to do drafts and then submit it and then it's marked and then there's. Well, for me at least, there was red pen all over it and it's almost a. It doesn't encourage you to want to just put something out there and try it, whereas where we are in putting it out there and trying it is the most effective way of going.

Clare:I really agree. I think the model that you have with the 90-minute books and really putting out that first version and letting it, you're in you. I think you're at the forefront of a real trend in, particularly in content marketing, because it's all about creator content, it's not about. It's creating content by community and by you know users working together, and I think the model that you've created lends itself so well to to that new trending content marketing, so that your book authors can really experience something that I think you know even two years ago would have been looked at kind of a little bit a scant maybe, but now it's definitely the way to go.

Stuart: Yeah, actually it's interesting. Kevin, who I recorded with yesterday, so again will be the the show before this he actually just finished the second book and we were talking about that and the second book came from the first one. So he's in the sales marketing type world, okay, working with sales teams. So his first book was 20 of his ideas, aimed to be a relatively not high level, but none of them were super detailed, but it was the 20 lowest hanging fruit or the easiest things that could come from it, and one of the ideas that he included was about writing personal biographies. It was just something that they've done for years. It was just literally one of the 20, but all of the feedback that he got was about that particular element Exactly, a marker from the community that this was something that there was much more of an expectation of, or an opportunity, rather, to dig into a bit deeper.

But your framework. So the three elements of the strategy, execution and automation there's various different. Again 2023, there's a lot of talk of automation and AI and the opportunities there, and I think some people are hoping that it's going to be a silver bullet, which means minimal effort, hit a button and maximum output, which obviously isn't the real world. Of the three, those strategy execution and automation is the one of those that the business owners themselves typically are more interested in. The beginning Is the one element that kind of is the hot button element, but then they're introduced to other pieces.

Clare: I think that the typical entry point a lot of business owners really want is they want the execution and they often will come into an agency example very typical for someone to just go into it and say, for example, a digital marketing agency, and say I want to get leads, I want a lead generation program.

And if that company has a very well detailed profile of who their ideal customer is and they can tell their story well, they can jump into execution and they'll start seeing results. However, if that company does not have a good sense of their ideal customer or they want to move, for example, open up a new market, then jumping into execution will always cost them money and it's not unusual for in that scenario for someone, that's $20,000 to $50,000 trying to figure out what's the best way to get these new leads in, as we're sort of trying to figure out our way forward. If they set a strategy in the beginning, if they set a blueprint we call it as opposed to a strategy because it really is a way to build your approach then that will that we can reduce that easily, cut it in half and maybe even reduce it to 25% of the iteration cost.

Stuart: Right, it really is ready. Aim fire is the ideal approach, rather than fire, hope, maybe, aim Right. I think it's so easy for people to get distracted by the kind of the above water piece of the iceberg, which is the add and the results, and miss the importance of the building blocks below. But the benefit is those building blocks are applicable in multiple different areas, so the extra value of doing that work first, which means all of the above water pieces are just going to be so much more effective it's exactly.

Yeah, it's difficult to sometimes wind people back a little bit just to do the building block work. That will just make it so much more effective. Working with a number of kind of on the visionary side of the equation rather than the implemented side of the equation, it is difficult to Okay we just need to take one step back before we run too far down this route. You were talking about the fractional, other fractional people that you work with, and I know that you were when we were talking about rolling out the framework to allow other consultants to use and licensing the system. That type of thing.

That's always something that's interesting and we did do a podcast last year sometime with someone who's dedicated in that licensing type space. It's always interesting hearing about it because we've worked with people on the franchise side of things, which is similar. How did you go from a business owner and then have an employees to thinking about licensing and out? What was that thought process around? Either the relinquishing I don't want to say relationship can control, but was it much of a step to move from just a regular model to more of a looking for other partners to work with?

Clare: When I started working on the book, which was about two years ago, it was published last October. So that was the point of the book was to prepare for the idea of licensing the system. So the first step was to provide the information about the system. In the book, smart marketing execution has the step by step details of the system, has examples of the tools. Tools are available to download on the website.

So the idea was that the book should be kind of that initial foundation and I think you do the same thing with your 90-minute books as well, stuart as you create that foundation for people who can then take it and move it to that next level, whether they license it or not or whether they simply use it with their own client base. I think it is that definitely that foundational step. And then the next step is to take what you've done that you're comfortable with and really and that's where we are now is really learn how to make it really effective for others to use. So that's our certification program that we're, like I say we're just in the beginning stages of is, with people learning it, so that we can continue to refine the approach and make sure that it's the best customer experience for both the consultant and for their clients.

Stuart: Such a fantastic opportunity to put more, more opportunity out in the world. The individual reach of any one person is kind of limited to their sphere of influence, no matter how effective they are at that to be able to share what's working with more clients through more providers. I think it's an opportunity that more businesses have got than perhaps they realize, and I get that it's not necessarily something that immediately springs to mind, but I think anyone with a framework, where that framework has got proven results, it's definitely an opportunity for more people to take on board that idea of licensing it out. It's almost like the strategic coach approach of the, the free zone frontier and the amplifying three partnerships rather than thinking about locking something down and restricting it, it's making it available within the constraints but as available as possible.

Clare: Absolutely Now. I would encourage anyone out there who has a even in, even in the beginning ideas of the framework sewer to contact you and to look at your 90 minute book process. Even if they end up not using it for anything more than themselves and their own clients as a way to do it, it will clarify their thinking, it will give them a tool, it will give them that next growth step in their business. So I think it's an ideal approach.

Stuart: Yeah, I appreciate it. Actually I was funny, I should say. They clarified the thing again. We recorded a podcast with someone a couple of weeks ago and that was one of their feedback as well. They were saying that actually this process having to explain to Christie who they were working with to create their book, having to explain to a level of detail that they hadn't necessarily had to explain before, because either they're talking with clients who don't need to know that level of detail they were happy just to. They were already clients, so they were happy just to move on with what the?

person was talking about, or they were talking to employees and perhaps there was the employees come with their own ideas, or there was some reluctance to kind of ask what might seem like basic or obvious questions because they were worried about seeming like they didn't know what they were talking about. So to have to go through and explain it, and it actually opened up a couple of other parts of the chapters and explaining things in ways that they just never articulated before. It was in here but it had never kind of come out in a way that was easy to understand and share with someone else.

Clare: Exactly.

Stuart: Brings us to this idea of how the books created. The frameworks and the explanations are there. You set the project up with the idea of it being the first step towards engaging other consultants and licensing and certifying people. How do you have now, or when you started, how was your approach to spreading the word and getting it out there? Did you have a particular use case in mind for using the book with groups of people or through or with other professional organizations?

Clare: I have. I do belong to several networking groups. I belong to Fractionals United, which is a LinkedIn or, excuse me, slack group, a large Slack group of Fractionals. I do belong to a couple of other groups. I do a fair amount of work on LinkedIn and connecting with people and I think, rather than thinking about it from the standpoint of, well, I want to get people into the program, I want to build relationships with people and find people for whom this program is really the best fit. So what we're really doing now is we're building relationships with people with whom this could be a good potential tool for them. Some people you know it's a wide spectrum out there Some people are just literally coming out of corporate or starting their marketing career and really need specific tools. Others are very experienced. They have some parts of the system, but not all. So they're using it to kind of supplement what they have and to build on what they have. So it's been kind of a wide range.

Stuart: That's actually those two groups. It's so interesting. And another benefit of frameworks is that a lot of times I think people's default is frameworks are good for people who are at the beginning of their journey because it lays out some step by step elements, which obviously is true. But I think the other benefit is for that group of people, as you described, is very experienced. They've got a lot of their own systems already. But looking at other people's frameworks, there's an opportunity to plug some gaps, if you notice some gaps, but also just structure it, because at that point in your journey you're bringing so much subconscious knowledge that when looking and assessing another framework, it just allows you to appreciate it at a whole other level and bring in some depth to the conversation rather than starting from scratch. So those two groups such a huge benefit for them.

Clare: The other thing, too, stuart, that I want to add is that it also helps consultants in particular who want to build, like seven figure practices scale, because when you are a fractional CMO, you can typically handle three to five clients, depending on what your work style is and what the client's requirements are. With a framework like this, you can bring in a junior partner or a junior employee and teach them the framework, teach them the system, and they can then employ that system and help you scale your practice to that next level.

Stuart: Such a great point, and whether that's them taking on their own clients and running them end to end through the whole system, or whether you break it down so that they're specializing in certain elements of the framework itself, it really frees up the value and the effort into something a lot more systematized and manageable, rather than just saying go out there and hope for the best.

Clare: Exactly, exactly and again, because it's rinse and repeat, it also gets to the point where you can get into a rhythm with your clients, where you know and this is another issue that happens a lot of times with consultants is how long is this going to take? How is the client going to respond? Are we going to have stops and holdups in our process? This does definitely reduce those kind of hiccups in the process. The client is again because clients more engaged, they tend not to have those times where they have to step away. Anything can happen in the world and we know that People have lives and families and things do change. But we've found that this does reduce that interrupt to the process, to the work that we're doing with them.

Stuart: Which, again, going into it, anyone who's experienced on this side of the working model with clients this way I'm sure it's not going to be news to those, but certainly people who entering into this world, perhaps out of the corporate space and again where we are recording now, the work environment is a lot different than it's been over the last couple of years and there are probably more people now coming into the world of trying to do something for themselves because they've been let go. So, going into that, coming out of the corporate world, you kind of expect that the challenge in the hold-ups would be from your side yourself, maybe not having the best working practices or over-committing and things happening. But the reality is that a lot of those delays and you'll be waiting a lot for clients and no for us in the book business and even on the podcast business as well. It's surprising how much we try to minimize the client deliverables, but it's surprising how much you have to wait for those. So I think, to be able to give the clients a framework and an expectation and allow them to plan out where their pieces of the puzzle fall in it's again.

It's just why I love frameworks so much, because it just clarifies the picture for everyone and makes it so much more achievable and attainable. Absolutely, time goes fast on these podcasts all the time. I want to make sure that people have got an opportunity to follow along with what you guys are doing, and of the audience. There's going to be a mix, I think, of people who are interested in the framework to implement it themselves and then clients who might be looking for someone to implement it for them. So where's a good place for people to find out more about the organization and what you're doing?

Clare: So let me just real quickly share the audience copy of the book. Can you see this okay.

Stuart: It's Zoom background is making it disappear a little bit.

Clare: Oh, okay.

Stuart: In the show notes. I'll make sure that I put a copy of the cover just so they can.

Clare: Okay, and yes, I encourage anybody who's interested. They can go to our website that's octaingrowth.com. We have a special offer, for your listeners. They can go to octaingrowth.com/myoffer and download a copy of the first chapter of the book, as well as sign up for to spend some time with me for any marketing question or conversation they'd like to have.

Stuart: That's fantastic. I'll make sure that we put links to those in the show notes and on the website. So if people are listening on the podcast play, just scroll across the show notes or on the website there'll be a link directly to it. As I say, I'm a huge fan of frameworks. I particularly like this one because of the structure as it moves from the three elements, because no matter where your jumping off point is, it gives you something to dive into. So really recommend that people go and get that copy of the chapter and then get the copy of the book I mean, that's the next step and then reach out to you. I think as well.

If people have got the framework questions about the program, it's jumping on a call. I've had this experience myself this year maybe more than in the past, but jumping on a quick call to talk with people is so much more effective than trying to do it by email or text. It's the years I kind of vid moved away from speaking with people. It was strange though it sounds, but really in the last 12 months it's been a huge difference maker. Is there anything that we've? I'm always conscious of talking with people who I know less than our typical authors. Is there anything that we skipped over or didn't cover so far? That would be. I want to miss anything.

Clare: I don't think so. I think this was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and really the way that you explore all the different opportunities. And again, I just really want to reiterate and underline that I do think your process with your 90-minute books is a new trend in marketing and I would encourage people to take advantage of it.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, I appreciate it. Likewise, I appreciate your time as well. It's always fun having a conversation with someone and then being able to dive a little bit deeper and share it with the audience. So we'll make sure we've got this out in the next. I think the week after we record this we'll be going live. As I say, we'll make sure that there's links to to the offer page, so people should definitely follow along with that, and it'll be interesting to circle back in a few months down the track and get that kind of input on how the certification the beta groups going through at the moment, but how people are receiving it and taking that framework, I welcome the opportunity to talk with you anytime, stuart.

Clare: I really appreciate again your time and this engaging, wonderful conversation.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, everyone thanks for listening and watching along. As I say, check out the notes and follow Clare. We'll put Clare's link data address in there as well, so follow Clare there. As always, let us know if you're thinking about writing a book yourself. If you've got any questions about the process, just reach out to us at support at 90-minute books or me directly at Stuart at 90-minute books, and we'll be happy to help. So, Clare, thanks again for your time. Everyone thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Kevin Berwald, chartered financial planner and CMO of Catalyst4Growth, a sales team development organization, about his latest book Get More Great Referrals in Less Time, a book born from the feedback he received from an earlier book he created.

This first book contained 20 big ideas that sales professionals can use to acquire more clients. One was the suggestion to create a professional biography as an introduction tool. It was an idea that generated a lot of interest and new clients. Feedback and success that led to Kevin creating a book specifically on this subject.

It's a great example of a 'LEAN' approach to using a book as a conversation starter. You can never be sure which ideas will resonate with potential clients, but when you identify a hot topic - Double down and generate all the leads you need.

We had a great conversation about this and about the idea itself, creating a professional biography you can share with people to help them understand and remember the referral opportunities you're looking for. We discuss the seven essential elements of a successful biography and advise on deepening each element's impact. Kevin also highlights the power of personal details in building trust and connections.

There are a lot of great takeaways here, both when thinking about using a book to build your business and creating a professional bio to easily share what you do.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More Show. It's Stuart Bell here, not being able to speak today, which is a bad sign for a podcast. But a good sign for the podcast is we've got Kevin Berwald back with us. Kevin, how are you doing?

Kevin:I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Fantastic.

Stuart: We just had some technical issues getting sorted out. So if anyone is watching along on the video and sees me kind of staring off screen, I'm not distracted. It's just I had to move Kevin down here somewhere and I try to remember to keep looking here. But hopefully that doesn't confuse me too much, kevin, we had a great feedback on the last show. I linked the last episode in the show notes actually, if anyone didn't manage to catch the first one. But this we visit or an update is going to be super exciting for people because it kind of gives people a real world feedback on what can happen from a first book and lead into the second. So why don't you start with probably just quickly recap for people, if they're joining this one for the first time, about you and what you do, and then we can talk about the new book, which I think is going to be a really exciting case study for people.

Kevin:Sure. Well, you know, this journey with with you guys has really helped propel several of the businesses that we work in. The primary one is now a company that's called catalyst4growth is our website, which has really taken off.

I can't thank you guys enough for the work and support you gave us on my first book, because that book had 20 big ideas in it and knowledge torches that is used to help people grow their business and their lives and has brought so much satisfaction to me and so many other people. But then the next step was what came out of that book. So the interesting thing you really put yourself out there when you write down what you think are some of the biggest ideas to help in the overall catalyst for the sales cycle for people when they're growing their business and generating clients. I don't know if it was ironic or intended, but three big ideas came out of that book and really they weren't the ideas that I thought were going to come out, and one of them has to do with creating a professional biography that is used as an introduction tool. It's really the tool that just crosses the chasm to help your centers of influences and your current best clients introduce you to other clients.

We didn't see this coming, but it was. After probably a dozen to 15 different conference calls, presentations at different conferences, zoom meetings, I started getting requests almost daily from salespeople around the country who said how do I create a professional biography and what are the big ideas to help me implement it? And it got to the point where it was very difficult to handle that volume. So the easiest way to help people grow their business and get more introductions in shorter time to their best clients is to create a book and give them some homework and prep to put everything together before it gets to me. And that's how the book was created so that we can help people much more efficiently and quickly meet their objective of creating a tool that helps them get more referrals much more quickly.

Stuart: And that's the second point Right, and it's such a great point, isn't it? There's an element of we talk about lead generation books so often, but there's also that smoothing the path element that when people now have consumed, are aware of the first idea, of consume the second book, to go into some details and now talking to you for the first time, it's such a time saver for everyone because you're not now going through what could be construed as the basics or the ideas. Now people are turning up with a much more advanced understanding of where they are or questions or what the next steps are, If it does speed the process along quite a lot. You were talking about this idea of the second book coming from the first one. It was the idea that they got a lot of traction In terms of the content for it and what level to pitch that at.

Again, thinking in terms of us usually talking about lead generation books and almost doing the one-on-one level of the book, this one is slightly different because it's kind of instructing people a little bit more, guiding people a little bit more specifically. So was that a different mindset or a different? You approached that in a different way to create it.

Kevin: Yes, I think so, and it's to the point that this book is really less than 80 pages. The content is probably down to 60. So the simplicity of this book is really part of its power, because it actually does a couple of things, and I think the latter part, which I'll mention after the first part, is the strongest. And the first thing is helping people recognize and create and think through the seven strategic elements that are actually embedded inside of a professional biography that is used as a referral tool that actually works. I don't want to say subconsciously, in a bad way, but it's a powerful subconscious message to the person who's consuming the information that we create that makes them almost not be able to hold back from calling you and giving you introductions or reaching out to you. It's a very, very powerful tool, but I've condensed it into such a small part, small amount of information that really in one flight, in an hour and a half, someone can work through this book and piece together the information that they begin to need to share with me, so that I can begin to reweave it together to create something that they're not only proud of but something that, when it is pushed out to their audience, is very receptive to them, and here's the subtle nuance of what I'm trying to say. Most people think of a professional biography almost like a resume, in that there's things that they want to say about themselves to their prospective clients, and the disconnect there is that the prospective clients don't care most of the time whether or not you have a LP's prize and a Heisman trophy for whatever services you get. They just don't care. What they care about is what's important to them, and so the nuance of creating professional biographies is communicating those things that are most important to the person consuming the information, the things that they want to hear and need to hear, and if you can convey that, then their interest is peaked. So that's the first part of creating this book making it easy to consume, easy to utilize and easy for you to get that information transferred over to me and my team to create a document for you that you can use.

The second part, which I think is really important about this book, is all the feedback that we've been getting, even before the book was created, from sales professionals around the country that just call me out of the blue and within the first week they're getting referrals right out of the from centers of influence. They start meeting people at the time and they transfer this document to them, sometimes by text or by email. The percentage of people that respond back is so dynamically greater than the old. Let me hand you a business card or check out my website. I don't even know how to quantify the value, but people will use it the first time and they'll say you know, I started using it this week and I had two people schedule meetings with me that never would have contacted me before, and I take 10 of those ideas and I put them in the back of the book. So there's two parts and this is 80 pages, and you can start to begin to create your own document, understand what the seven elements are, and then I give you 10 ideas, which aren't the only 10, but 10 at the time. There's some that have come from after this that are even stronger, but ways that give you the ideas of how you can utilize professional biography to generate more referrals and introductions to your ideal client profile. So they're in the book. So that's the big idea.

A lot of people will talk about sales generation. They'll generally be talking about the overall sales cycle. They'll be talking about sales interaction and how you can be more efficient or powerful in a sales interaction where the professional biography really is positioned on both sides of it. The professional biography helps you control your perception of who you are to your ideal client profile before you get to them and then you're in the sales interaction. The other, on the book end side, is actually then, when you're done with the sales interaction, how you get more introductions or get that individual to refer more people to you. So it's bolted on and it's so simple that it makes anybody really want to use.

Stuart: Magic trick isn't it To be able to give someone a tool and something that they can kind of grasp in a straightforward way you mentioned before. It's long enough that you can read on a flight. We're both up in the kind of northeastern, the office is down in Florida, so that's like a two, three hour flight. So to be able to consume something in that period of time and leave with something actionable, that's not often the case. I mean, oftentimes people are starting journeys with other professionals in a way that it's the beginning of a long process. So to be able to deliver something that is that valuable in that short period of time, that starts your relationship with them off on such a different footing. I can imagine the feedback that you're getting from people. As you say, I've read this yesterday, I did the action yesterday evening and today it's out there generating leads. It really is quite a magic trick.

Kevin: You know it kind of is, and sometimes the most simplest things, the easiest, smallest tools, all that's needed to be the catalyst to really take you where you want to go. In fact, right right before we got on this call, I just printed off four just replies back I've had from people in the last couple of weeks. I'd like to share a couple just to give you some feedback.

I think there's four here. One is hey, kevin, hope you're doing well. First of all, I can't wait to share with you how this tool has really been helping my personal practice. It is amazing and well worth the investment. Here's another one. Kevin is an invaluable source to all of us advisors. Since implementing his referral strategy, my business has been completely transformed. I've received more referrals this year than in any of my previous three years combined. He has a very special way of getting you to envision the ideal client and how to communicate what that looks like. His advice is priceless. Here's another short one. Check out this email on a referral that one of my clients sent. He included my bio, just like Kevin suggested. I'll keep you posted on when I meet with him. Thanks, kevin, you're the man. That's kind of nice.

Then a quick story. This one is a couple paragraphs, but my hubby and me were recently up in Traverse City visiting the vineyards. When my sister-in-law and her friends who had just arrived from Atlanta, georgia when, asked what it is I do, I replied a financial advisor. Whereupon the friend said could you, she could use one as her mother who she is? The POA power of attorney has money earning nothing in the bank. Instead of giving him a business card, he texted over or emailed over the professional biography. He goes on to say that as soon as he sent it, a reply came back saying can I call you early next week to discuss my mother's account? I was floored and stunned on how effortless it was to follow up on her casual statement need of an advisor over an introduction. That happened regularly at social meetings. Normally I would provide a business card and that would be the end of it, quite literally.

The thing is how do you connect with someone, get their contact information and really control your perception to the right person?

When someone asks what you do and you've heard of elevator statements there's lots of ways we try to create it, but we're not always in the best frame of mind or prepared when someone asks and it doesn't always come across well, like on the golf course.

I've used this on golf courses. I've said to people can I just send you my professional biography, read it, try to digest it, just give me a call back and when they do that, they give me their name and phone number and contact information or email and now I have the control information. Or when my clients refers me to someone else, they'll send this document and copy me in, while they say nice raving fan words about how great I am to that referral. It's just absolutely amazing and I know I'm doing most of the talking, but I just want to point out when I use this exact process back before we had great technology like today, there was a time when I was averaging as many as 16 new clients a month While I was using this product. I would get four a week on average while I was growing my business just using this tool.

Stuart: And there's so many elements to it, as you say. It's kind of so non-threatening, it positions the conversation in the way that you as the business owner want it positioning, because you're in control of what's included and your process kind of helps people highlight who it is they're looking for, use the language that will resonate with those people. So it almost becomes somewhat self-selecting in the people who receive it and are that ideal target group, are more predisposed. That next step you were talking earlier about the kind of subliminal programming element of it, but it really is that kind of persuasion elements that Robert Chalzini talks about a lot, the kind of subconscious or psychological cues in a good way, not a bad way, but it still helps move that conversation forward.

There's so many steps that mean it's easy for the person to create, easy for the person to consume and an obvious next step that it's not really a surprise that it really helps people orchestrate what they're doing in terms of referrals, as opposed to the kind of we appreciate referrals, tell your friends type type message that a lot of people are doing in just the passive sense, the people who. So there's kind of two tiers to obviously there's the people who are receiving the professional biography and how they're responding. But the people that you're dealing with, so the other advisors that you're working with this idea of the professional biography for most of them, is this a new idea or is it something that they've maybe seen in a different context or heard you talk about in a different place, and this book is, then, almost helping conversion process.

Kevin: It's helping them understand that this is a tool that they really need there are some people that I'll find that do have very good biographies I mean, there's nothing new under the sun, right? So there are people who have been very successful at creating and having a bio, and some that know how to use it. I don't find a lot of people who've created one that's as efficient as this process is and know how to use it, and I think that the biggest issue with all of these is sometimes you've heard the story where you'll do things so well, you'll stop using them.

You'll create a biography you'll create a marketing strategy, you'll use it for a while and then you'll go on to something else, and so it's really sometimes for some people it's just reminding them, brushing it off and giving them a new tool. But I can honestly say with complete candor, I don't know a single person no one have I met that has created a professional biography and began to use it, has ever failed. They have always gotten more referrals and they get it in shorter time, and it really is all about creating the perception I like your, you know you kind of bring me back to the, you know, using the psychological things of the way people react mentally, and there's great studies on this. But I'd say if I could boil down everything into one concept about creating a professional biography that's done the right way, that's meaningful to the correct audience, with information that they want to hear, not me telling them what I want them to know about me, but what they want to know about how I can solve their problem is sort of like this and I know there's lots of studies, but when I met you the first time, when you met me the first time or saw me the first time, or we meet anyone, we literally have hundreds of assumptions that we think about someone that are biases based on our own life and information that we have. And those biases and thoughts that we think about someone that we meet the first time only go away one or two pieces at a time. So using a document like this, especially when it's referred by someone, essentially begins to pare down and fence out all the thoughts that we don't want our target audience to think about us and they begin to only know those things that we give them along with our picture. Dating apps although I've never been on one, they've been married for 20 years, I know there's swipe rights and lefts and your picture alone just looking at someone's picture will create dozens and dozens of biases and assumptions, and that's one of the elements that we coach people through.

What type of picture is it? What should it look like? Should it be your company? Should it be you? Should it be your team?

If I could just go a couple points further into the seven elements that are in a biography, the second one is the name, title and content, and it's funny how people wonder well, does my name, title and content really matter? Let me just say this I knew nothing else about you and I saw your picture that resonated with me and I read your title and I saw that you were a president, a CEO, whatever name you'd like to pick. That represents, without being dishonest, who you are. I'm either going to stop and read that title or I'm going to bypass it. And actually it's best if they bypass it and just think credibility right out of the gate.

But what if I put down my website there as a contact information? What if I put my assistance name next to it? Then don't people all of a sudden assume and think of me in an entirely different way of my capacity? So those things are really critical name, title, contact information and photo right out of the gate to eliminate a lot of biases that someone thinks about you or doesn't think about you. We want to control who we are and how they perceive us, and we actually spend quite a bit of time on just those elements.

Stuart: It's surprising, isn't it? There's definitely a point of something will fill a vacuum and if you're not putting those thoughts in someone's head and again, whenever we use these words, we're kind of talking about it in a positive sense, not a negative sense, but without sharing those thoughts or those explicit words or terms or cases that you want people to think. They are going to think it and like you're talking about, with the bias around pictures and images, that might not be a great thing. We might all disagree with it in principle and hope that it doesn't happen, but the reality is it does. So let's not be naive and ignore that fact. Let's understand it and try and make the best of the situation that happens.

I really enjoy that idea of orchestrating it from start to finish and taking just that little bit of extra time to think about each of the elements in a thoughtful way that leads people towards the outcome that you want, rather than just doing something in the hope that it will work or not even thinking about it at all. There's seven elements that you've got as part of the building blocks, and then there's seven elements there in the book and they're the starting position, and then there are more. There's like a deeper level after that, or those seven elements, the real solid building blocks, and you could go deep on each of the elements. But there's not necessarily an eighth, ninth, tenth, yeah that's a good way to look at.

Kevin: I mean, there's probably lots of ways to diagnose this but then create a biography. I've yet to find a better way. There could be better ways to do it and it's not as though I created this out of my own mind, of my own volition. It clearly comes from a lot of help from a lot of other people over the years and, honestly, working and using biographies tactfully and intentionally myself for about 20 years or so. So the elements, if I walk through them and I describe them to you, really start from a broad concept, a broad based thought, and they work their way down to the end, because the intention of using a biography is to get someone to call you and contact you. That's the right person. So if you don't, can I just recap what the seven elements are.

Yeah the first is the photo. We talked about that. The second is the name, title and contact information. The third one I loved your. I had to write it down. Fill the void. You're filling the void. I think that's so great, but a personal or borrowed quote if you knew nothing else, you had to fill the void, as it were. The quote says so much about who you are in context. So using a quote that is aligned with your, your own vision and your own principles and what you actually provide to people, I think is so critical. The fourth element is it's a the biggest chunk and it's professional and personal information. The professional information is just enough to say that I had credibility.

This document isn't designed to give someone an entire dissertation. It's just enough to ask them, to want them to ask for more information, and that's why there's only seven elements. You could put lots more in it, but you'll do that later. This is just enough that someone can get through a quickly digested and then psychologically say to themselves I need to call you. The personal information, by the way, is most important. In mine, for an example, I mentioned that I wrestled in college, that I raise honeybees, that I live on an island on the edge of Lake Erie and like the boat and fish. So people will sometimes see my picture and I've never met them before. As I'm going to meet them, they'll call me, they'll see me and they'll say Kevin, how are you? They'll reach out, shake their hand and they'll talk to me for 15 minutes about raising honeybees and we become friends and trust each other way before anything else happens. Once that occurs, as long as there's synergies that are compliant, they'll almost always do business with me. So I think the most important crafted piece is to get that personal information down so that people aren't scared of interacting with you. In fact, they want them to think that possibly you might actually have the same thoughts that could be friendly with them.

Then we get into the value propositions, in other words what you offer people. So when people read this document, they say I need that. The sixth element of it are elements of your ideal client profile. So when someone reads that, they say they get to this point and say I need what you're offering and then they say, hey, he's talking about me. And then the seventh element is contact information and information of what you need to do to get in touch with me next. So when you follow that psychological process of controlling who you are, when it's written appropriately, when it's about them, it can be so much information that if they truly are someone who is in need of your value propositions or philosophies that you offer, they will almost always call you back because where else are they going to go? Where they have a probability of meeting someone to solve their needs. That is less scary than what you just showed them and easy for them to contact, and that's really all there is to it.

Stuart: Two points that stand out as you were talking there. And it stands out probably because it resonates with our approach and what we do with the books in the first place is the first one you talk about, with seven elements that we want to condense into the essence of what you're trying to communicate, because this document could be 50 pages long. We've all been in business for more than a couple of years. We can all write at length about what we do and who we can help and case studies and examples, but cutting down to their essence, to the smallest, almost like the minimum effective dose type approach of, I want to make this connection, give you a next step and tell you enough that you're comfortable taking that next step. And anything else that happens through the down the track is great, but it's outside of this document. This document's job of work is to make that connection, build some resonance, some reciprocity, give the ideas of what you want them to do and how you can help them next and then allow them to take that step and take conversation elsewhere. And the other point that stood out because I don't think I've heard it before. I mean you said that there's no new ideas under the sun and all of this is a distillation of your experience over the last 20 years of using this. But I think that's where the real power comes in, because, particularly these days, we're not no one's short of information. We can spend five minutes googling things and find all the information that we want, but bringing it together into a useful format, giving clear instructions of how it should work or how it could work, that's the real difference maker.

So the one that stands out from what you were saying was the quote, and that's something that I've never thought about including in bios or kind of like the thinking about it from a LinkedIn perspective. But people are very sound-biting. I mean, I don't know how much of a. I don't know whether that was always the case and people were always like that. There just wasn't the opportunity to see it so much. But certainly these days, having a sound-bite and a hook that allows people to remember you even if they're not ready to do business today, that makes it much more likely that they'll remember who you are and give some context to it when something jogs their memory six months down the track. So I think, bringing those things together in the way, not only is it efficient and effective, but there's also some great pointers in there which I'm not sure that everyone would have come across before.

Kevin: Maybe. So you know, I think listening to what you just said, if I encapsulated the experience that a professional biography creates, that's done the right way, might be something to the extent of what a mentor told me a long time ago when I, after I graduated college and got into the sales business, and he said Kevin, people will probably never remember much of what you say, but they will always remember exactly how they felt when they were with you.

Stuart: Right and it's really an experience.

Kevin: So you know, when we add a quote you know like, to my biography, my quote is from Napoleon Hill. It is literally true that you can succeed best and quickest by helping others to succeed. If you knew nothing else about me but my name, my title and my picture and you read that quote, you're going to think all kinds of things, but a lot of them aren't going to be, are going to be leaning towards the fact that I'm here to help you as opposed to help myself. This is more about you, it is about me, right, and that's why I quote.

And I got to tell you that one of the most fun things about helping people build their professional biographies I've never seen too remotely alike from quotes to serve propositions to their background stories. When I learned about what motivated someone to get into the business that they're in, how they got there, when there's a true emphasis behind it of why they're doing what they're doing, it's pretty fascinating. I can spend an hour with someone just talking about their business, listening and taking notes and then creating the documents. The hardest part, the fun part, is listening.

Stuart: Right and that breadth of it they're making a connection with other people, isn't it? We have the same here. Having done over a thousand books now, it's surprising that even people who are in the similar businesses have completely different approaches to things. And even if they have similar approaches to things, their experience of those approaches are completely different and their take on the business or what they bring to the table, their personal background, all of those things come through and mean that the audience that you're trying to attract even if it's the strategic coach abundance idea that there aren't really competitors out there because there's more than enough business for everyone in the space and it's your unique approach that separates you and makes you resonate with Person A and someone else will resonate with Person B. So I think being able to distill all of that into this professional biography, encapsulate it into something that's easy to deliver, easy to give someone the next step such a fantastic way of bringing all those elements together at once as we said last, time goes fast in the podcast here. One thing I wanted to quickly circle back on was this idea of the second book coming from the broader ideas that were in the first. So quite often people will have a will, get feedback from people and identify another opportunity to kind of niche down into a specific way of attracting a group of people, compelling them to take the next step, and then other times it'll be external sources, that kind of highlight that there's an idea or an opportunity. So if people, or rather as people, will listen to this, we're probably in two camps. There's people who have written books already and might be on the fence. Actually, I wonder if it's.

I just realised I was going to make a comment that there was someone that we did one of the early podcasts with who had a similar experience. Their book pivoted into a whole different business and, thinking about it, their name was Kevin as well. That was Kevin Craig. I'm guessing that you don't have to be called Kevin to have this epiphany, but if someone sat there, they've maybe written something, either a book, or they've got some material out there and they're thinking that there might be something in this, there might be something they can drill down into. What's the line between, yes, this is an idea that's worth going into a little bit more and potentially writing a second book about, or a book about versus? Oh, this is just something that people are generally talking about. Was there anything that was a real hot trigger that said, okay, there's definitely enough time and attention or interest out there. That means that this is worth doubling down on.

Kevin: Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is a premise might. So there's two parts of this. The first part is, you know, in whatever business you're in, eventually you've got to retool a message and come out with your next message. I mean, if you've written a book or you have a strategy, a sales strategy that you're utilizing, I mean, when you're using that strategy and it's working, that's the time to get to the next strategy and begin building it already. It's like Western civilization and the waves of what you've got to be doing next. So I'm always thinking of the next thing I want to do. And so, because I know that I'm going to have to write another book eventually and I've got a couple that I'm thinking of, I always have that mindset of what's going to happen in the future, thinking out six, nine, 12 months out of what I'm going to need to do. And I think, if you're paying attention and you're in our business which is, you know, as opposed to writing, you know novels or you know a series of books about a certain character fiction and in our business we're actually thinking about how we can drill down and help people, you know, reach the vision of their ideal future. Stealing a quote from someone else, but that's what we're trying to do. It means that times and evolution changes, the economy changes, politics changes, wars change, things change, and so we've got to be thinking about and aware of that change and what, trying to get ahead to where the puck's going to be somewhere out into the future. Using a hockey analogy right, I've got to be thinking about where things are.

So if you've written a book and you're getting a lot of feedback and sometimes it's the forest for the trees someone keeps tapping you on the shoulder and saying you know, I like this point, I like this point, I like this point then you've got to, you've got to realize it, wake up and think about it and you know. What you guys taught me to do, and the way we developed these books, is begin to just write down an outline of what that point is. When you write down the outline, I think you'll get an epiphany or an awareness of there's enough there or there's not. But if you're getting a lot of attention, a lot of feedback, positive feedback and just writing down the outline of what that concept is should give you a pretty good idea if you can come up with a, something that is going to be important to others and that they'll want to utilize. I hope that answers your question.

Stuart: Yeah, definitely, and I think I couldn't agree more on the outline elements to it. It's so much the I don't know if it's the history of how we're taught to write as kids in school, the it becomes such a process and the words themselves are so much of the things that are marked and scored, kind of flashbacks to red lines and spelling corrections through everything. But it is easy to get hung up on the actual creation of the words themselves on the written page, which really is the last part of the process. Outline the design, the strategy, the purpose those elements are the main things and that's a brainstorming exercise of taking 30 minutes and a blank piece of paper just outline. However, you prefer to outline those elements that take people from the thing that they're interested to the next step, and I couldn't agree more.

If you get that feedback from people where they're talking about particular elements and you can put that into an outline that makes sense and that's the answer straight away, the work's almost done. At that point it's just kind of filling in. The filling in. I want to make sure that people can get access to you and Borkand and find out more about what you're doing, kind of follow along with the journey. Where's the best place for people to go to check out more?

Kevin: Well, my email is [email protected]. That's my email. Or you can go to our website, which is catalyst4growth.org, and when you get there you'll see when you get to the resources page, that we actually have a document that you can use to fill in those seven elements of your ideal client profile. It's a free tool for you to be able to use. If you get the book which you can find on Amazon or Kindle and it's called get more referrals in less time. Or just type my name in Amazon, type in Kevin Berwald. It's at the bottom of the screen, I think, where my picture is just type that in and you'll see the books pop up. That's probably one of the easiest ways to get it Read through the elements it's 80 pages.

Do yourself a favor. You will not regret doing this, even if you just write these elements down, so that you can now convey them to your clients verbally, where you couldn't before, or give it to the people who are developing your marketing programs, because we spend thousands of dollars on people to help us with marketing programs and they never understand what those key seven elements are and why we would choose them. And shouldn't that really be the foundation of what they do. So do yourself a favor, it's a gift, it's on my website. There's a presentation as examples of other biographies. And then, if you want to take it further and you want me to dust it off, you know, for 500 bucks and a few hours of work and using a quality printer, you can get a document and hard copy or a digital copy that will return any expense or time, possibly thousands of times. It's just so important to do and I'd be more than happy to help you out, or some of my team to help you out, to create yours as well.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, I'll be sure to put all of those links in the show notes. So, as people are watching along or listening on a podcast player or on the website, we'll make sure that the show notes are linked to those within the show notes and kind of shortcut that for people. One quick point you made there was not only is this an exercise that's worth doing in its own right to create the document, but it's also super useful across all sorts of other things you mentioned the marketing team and even the sales teams to understand your approach, what you do. This is a piece of work that will return benefits across multiple different use cases, not only the actual job of working, doing it in the first place, but in all of those other examples.

Kevin: Yeah, I guarantee it. And you know the best way to get referrals is to talk about referrals. So if you take a book like this and you use your own professional biography and someone asked you how you created it and you start talking about referrals, I'm just telling you you're just going to get more referrals from talking about referrals or sharing this book and how to create a biography with some of your best clients who are in the sales business, realtors, insurance, finance. Everything is sold. I'm just telling you sharing the book, giving it to other people, is so valuable. The law of reciprocation is so strong. When you're really in it to help someone out, they're going to reciprocate and it's just a blast. It's a change of mindset of how to grow your business.

Stuart: Yeah, this has been fantastic. I really enjoyed last time we spoke. We got a lot of great feedback from it and I'm sure this episode will be the same. We'll definitely make sure to put notes and links in the show notes so, as you're listening along, click through. And it would also be interesting on this one to send feedback to you if people have gone through the exercise. I'm sure I'd be interested to hear that. So make sure your email you mentioned before. I'll put that in the notes as well. So, as people are doing their biographies, definitely feed that back to Kevin as well, and maybe we can do a roundup show in a few months time and see what kind of feedback we've got and give people some pointers to take it to the next level.

Kevin: That's great. We're starting another podcast ourselves next month and one of the things we'll be doing is bringing on people who are having success and they'll be on our podcast. Maybe I can reciprocate with you. You could be on one of my podcasts.

Stuart: Yeah, fantastic, that'd be perfect. I'll make sure that I'm looking at the camera in the right place for yours.

Yeah that'd be fantastic. That'd be really interesting. And actually I think I said it last time we were talking that I need to go through and dust off mine and get it updated. This is reminding me again it's something I really need to do more urgently. So, for that show, maybe we can go through mine and I'll use their book as the tool to dust it off, and that can be a great example for people of someone getting around to do it, which I'm sure is a barrier for a lot of people. And this is the great catalyst for kind of no excuses. Now, there's not. You don't have to think about what to do, just follow the steps. So, yeah, that'd be fantastic. We can use that as an example. Awesome, perfect.

Okay, time goes fast, as always, I've come. Thanks so much. We'll definitely cycle back in a couple months and get some feedback and do an update. Everyone who's listening watching along, as I say, check out the show at the top of links directly to Kevin's email, the website and the Amazon links and then let us know either feedback directly to Kevin or to us here at Stuart at 90 minute books and be really interested to see what people are doing and, of course, if this is sparked your idea of getting your book out there. Then just reach out to us at like. I say, my email address is Stuart and uscom and we'll be happy to help get that source. So thanks again, kevin. Everyone, thanks for watching and then we'll catch you in the next one.

Kevin: Great. Have a profitable day everyone.

Kevin Berwald wrote a book with 20 big ideas for sales professionals. He thought he knew which ones would resonate. He was wrong.

One unexpected idea kept generating calls. Salespeople across the country wanted to know how to create professional biographies as referral tools. The demand got so intense Kevin couldn't handle the volume of requests.

So he wrote a second book. Less than 80 pages, focused entirely on this one concept that was getting traction. It's a perfect example of doubling down when you find what works.

Kevin breaks down the seven strategic elements that make a professional biography actually generate referrals. The key insight: stop talking about what you want to say and start talking about what your ideal clients need to hear. You'll walk away knowing how to turn your bio into a referral magnet and why your second book might be more valuable than your first.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/151-filling-a-demand-with-kevin-berwald/

About Kevin Berwald: Website | LinkedIn

Your Book Is Closer Than You Think — You already say everything that needs to be in your book. 90-Minute Books turns it into a done-for-you lead generation tool. Get the Free Book

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with real estate coach Eric Thompson, a Real Estate coach based in Colorado and author of Sell More Houses and Have Happy Clients. A book that introduces people to his 'Non-Pushy Selling System'.

With over 30 years of real estate experience, many of those coaching other agents, Eric has some great insights into the challenges they have, the conversations going on in their minds, and the ideas he can share to help get agents to the point of wanting to know more about his tools.

Eric's system, emphasising traits and perspectives agents already have rather than telling them they have to become someone else, is universally applicable, and his book is the perfect tool to introduce this idea, break the typical 'hard-grind' advice, and give people clear next steps toward working with him.

It's a great example of finding a compelling hook and something you can replicate for your business.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got another great episode. It's talking with Eric Thompson. Eric, how are you doing, buddy?

Eric:Hey doing great. Thanks so much, stuart, for having me on. I appreciate it.

Stuart:No problem at all. This is going to be a good episode. I'm excited because I've seen the process of the book coming through so far, so I know a little bit of the background, but we haven't had a chance to talk, so why don't you do an introduction for everyone listening and for me outside of the context of the book?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate it. So I'm a real estate coach. This is my 30th year in real estate. It started pretty much fresh out of college back in the day. I'm a Colorado native, live in Colorado with my amazing family, my wife and two kids. And, yeah, different things I've done in real estate. I've been a real estate agent, been in management, been in leadership, actually owned a real estate brokerage, but all along what I've loved to do is coach agents to help them be successful, have more happy clients, have a more fulfilling career. That's what I focus on and, yeah, and so that's what the book is really about.

Stuart:I was in Breckenridge a few weeks ago and had first-hand experience for the first time of the Colorado effect of everyone, no matter whether they're kind of 26 or 96 or looks like they're 30. You kind of keep on that tradition going of their outdoor life as serving people well, people who use the agency work with in the past and the clients they work with. Is that mainly centered around Colorado? Is that across the country?

Eric: Across the country and now I'm lucky enough to have clients and people subscribing to my membership program. From now I can say I'm international. I have clients in Canada, but yeah, I've been able to spread what I do from coast to coast. You know, every time zone in the continental US and now Canada. And so, yeah, it's really it's a fun part of what I do and really such a benefit of technology right that I'm able to reach out and help and interact with and connect with people all over the place. So that's been really fun.

Stuart:It's such a difference, isn't it? Even the last couple of years I mean the real estate we've worked with all the way on the bleeding edge of technology, but the advancement in the last three years, kind of pandemic driven remote working, it really has accelerated the conversation and I think it's created such an opportunity both for you as a other coach of remote agents, but also the agents themselves when they're trying to deal with an increasingly younger group of buying and selling clients. Just that being forced to kind of adopt even a low level of technology just is such an amplifier. Do you see that in the clients that you're working with kind of their adoption of technology, as they don't see it as like a big barrier anymore? It's just another thing to deal with.

Eric: Yes, absolutely, it's one of the benefits of COVID. Not that we would have wished COVID on that, but Zoom is very normal now. So it's one of the best things that ever happened to the coaching industry and that Zoom is normal, and it's one of the best things that's ever happened to real estate agents and that you're talking to and working with a client who's relocating from another part of the country or another part of the world to your location. It's such a better way to build a relationship with someone and get to know them when you can see them too. So, yeah, absolutely, it's been an amazing benefit.

Stuart:I think maybe for the well anyone in business really, but realtors particularly, because there is that kind of last mile element of at some point it does get very personal but to try and bridge the technology into it so that it's as fast and efficient and effective as possible, because at the end of the day people are used to signing up and clicking one click on their phone to have things completed and not necessarily the reams and reams of paperwork that traditionally go along with real estate, but keeping that right balance of still the personal connection but being facilitated by the technology. It bridges the best of both worlds and I think for people who adopt that and rather than a resistance to it just opens up more opportunities.

Eric: Absolutely. And related to that, one of the best features of Zoom or things like Zoom is screen share. So when you're coaching, when you have a conversation piece on the screen, have their business plan, have their goal a tool I use in coaching is a scorecard. When you can have that on the screen to be able to talk about that. And then when an agent is talking to a client, to have something like the seller process or the buyer process or something about the market you know market statistics, graphs to be able to share that on the screen. One of my favorite expressions is showing is better than telling, and so when you can use the visuals along with the conversation, it's a really effective way to use Zoom or things like Zoom.

Stuart:I think almost as well it's for their agents. It's almost more of a captive audience. Rather than going and doing a presentation in someone's home where they might be distracted by other things going on or you kind of feel the pressure of having to flick through the material pretty quick and not necessarily dwell on something, but in a Zoom environment you're always going into it with a estimate of how much time you've got, because someone books an appointment at four way period of time and knowing that you can take the time to highlight this particular piece, it's almost in some ways more effective than being in someone's home where I think there is somewhat of a pressure to flip three things and get to the end.

Eric: Yes, yeah, completely agree, and you can control what they're looking at and you can keep them from flipping ahead. So yeah, that's an interesting one.

Stuart:You feel a little bit rude of turning the page back on someone and say no, not yet, not yet yes.

The clients that you work with in the coaching business. It's funny, I'm sure you hear it all the time but the kind of ah, but my market's different type excuse from people who are kind of resistant or reluctant to get started Bridging out into wider than Colorado and then wider than the US. Is there any elements of kind of bringing people on board and up speed and enthusiastically getting them to the point of saying yes, this is right for me. Has that developed as the footprints developed wider over the years?

Eric: Yeah, you know, every market has its own nuances, of course, and I do a lot of work actually in resort markets.

Resort markets have their own nuances, but what's consistent I found and this actually relates to the book that I found is a common obstacle, a common challenge for the real estate agent, Like the thing that I've found to be most effective to help them with and fix is a fear of being pushy.

So, regardless of what market they're in a primary market, resort market, a big city, a small town it's what's consistent, what's always the same is that the realtor has some aversion, some fear of being pushing and salesy and corny and used car sales person. You know they don't want to be that way and the reason why they don't want to be that way is because they're a nice person, right, they're a nice, normal person with a really great personality, they have really great relationships, they have a great reputation and they don't want to mess any of that up, right? They don't want to change relationship they have with their friends, they don't want to negatively impact their reputation. So what I figured out is that's really the thing that I can help with and that's commonly the place I start with people and have. Like my whole program is really developed first around that. Let's first overcome that, then get you on your way to having more clients to help.

Stuart:It's interesting, isn't it? A lot of people are interested in the tactics or specific things, but quite often it's an underlying block or something that's preventing them from even if you gave all the tactics and techniques, it's still an underlying psychological or perspective issues. The real holds back.

Eric: Yes, yeah, yeah, always that translates into the book.

Stuart:So the book is happy clients. Without being pushy, I've got the.

Eric: I just realized it's on the screen the non-pushy selling system.

Stuart:Thank you the non-pushy selling system which in and of itself. We talk about titles a lot but that knowing the audience that it's going to that title is very much does what it says on the tin. It kind of overcomes some objections just in the title itself the name of the program. The approaches he said developed a little bit, but the name of the program and then the name of the book was that something that you had very clearly in mind from the start or did that develop through the process?

Eric: Well, credit to the help that I'm getting, but my mindset going in is that I wanted to call the book non-pushy selling, and the coaching I got was you know what this is really? A system that you're laying out in the book, and a system is more attractive to someone than just non-pushy selling, because people, what system implies is that the system is going to do a lot of the work for you, right, and the system is going to work and the system is going to generate the friendly referrals that the realtor wants. So that was really good coaching in it. So that you know, the title starts with some more houses have more happy clients the non-pushy selling system. So you know, it's really like the subtitle is in the lead here the non-pushy selling system.

And I, because of my experience in first noticing that objection and challenge in realtors and then figuring out how to help them with that, I really wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy, like the guy that helps people with that exact challenge and the person who can unlock that for the realtor. And so then where my mind went was well, I need a book, right, I need a book that says that. And so again, my thought was non-pushy selling would be the title, but the coaching I got was you know what? Let's make it the non-pushy selling system.

Stuart:It's such a great insight because the whole it's a nuanced difference but it does communicate the benefit and the outcome and the solution within that title element. So not that it's just describing a problem but, as you identified, there's, there's elements in here that will get you the results that you want. So this idea of communicating the promise of the outcome in the title itself or the title and the sub-combination, obviously, but that really makes quite a difference. And then it leads into the whole kind of name it and claim it and the strategic coaches, registering trademarks type approach of really dialing in and claiming this space as your own. There's lots of stales, courses or sales coaches out there, but this particular element, if this resonates with you, then you're the guy to go to.

Eric: Exactly.

Stuart:The feedback in the dialing in of the, the, this feeling that people have got of not wanting to be pushy. Was that relatively obvious from the start, as soon as you started dealing with people, or was that in itself something that developed over time? For me, it developed over time.

Eric: Yeah, it was, and I don't remember the exact time it really hit me and it was probably just a slower realization. I don't know if it was like one one big moment, but I think it was just over time. Where, you know, I've had the great fortune to work with a lot of different real estate agents in a lot of different places, a lot of different markets, and this theme kept coming up and it kept coming up with brand new agents, with veterans, with high producers, with people who are trying to get to a high level, like in different markets, different price points, again, resorts, primary. It didn't matter that, that that was the common thing. And people said you know what I got into real estate? Because I love helping people, I love working with people. Real estate is intriguing to me. It's a big transaction in someone's life. I want to help with that. But what they ran into was this super common block of I don't want to be pushy and salesy, I just don't want to be that person, Is it?

Stuart:always something that someone can overcome. It's always a. It's always something that you can reposition it and reframe it so people see it a different way. It's never something that's such a fundamental problem that they can't get over it. Maybe easy for some than others, but is it something that's always overcome?

Eric: Yes, what I'm convinced of is that my solution works for everyone. Now, whether they choose to use it or not is different, but it where I really work to make sure things that I coach and teach can work for any personality, because most people are normal. You know I have great, you know just great down to earth personalities and what happens in our industry it's interesting is that a lot of times the big personalities are showcased and they have a spotlight on them. You know the people that are on TV, the millionaire real estate agent and on. You know those people are great people but they're not normal and they're not anyone that someone could copy and emulate and try to be like.

You know most people can't be that. And so those people on TV, for example, the reason why they're having their success is because of their enormous personality, and good for them. But that's, it's super unique. And so there's the normal person, the normal personality, saying well, wait a minute, how, how can I be? I can't be that, how can I have that, those kind of results and that success? But I didn't without that personality. So, again, I really work to have coaching and training that that can work for everybody.

Stuart:It is interesting, isn't it? We talk a lot about the job of work or the product of the book. Isn't the book itself? We're not trying to sell copies of the book and that's our career. We're business owners. And the product, the outcome, is a conversation. And the same with the TV show. The product of the TV show is the TV show. They're kind of self-selecting for personalities and the social media problem a little bit. It's very self-fulfilling into that extreme end of the spectrum. But the reason that it has success and traction is because it is the extreme, not necessarily the underlying business. It's kind of the tail wagging the dog rather than the other way around. Which?

is a thanks for most people, the people who you work with and the clients that come to you. How do they find you at the moment, or how do you find them at the moment Prior to any book conversation? What's been the path to them knowing about you and ultimately raising their hand?

Eric: Yeah, so, as I think about my list, it's been generated a lot through public speaking. I've had a great chance to be in front of a bunch of different groups, all realtors but different paths there. I've had some success with Facebook advertising. I've had success with lead ads and there are other books that I've written, some smaller pocket guide kind of books that I've had as a free download, and again I've had a lot of success through Facebook lead ads Doing that. Also webinars, doing free webinars that's been a big part of my lead generation success. So, yeah, those have been in the different ways. So probably mostly public speaking and Facebook.

Stuart:It's interesting, isn't it, that once you get a message, whether or not it resonates is then a separate thing, I guess. But once you get a message that is easy to tie content to, it's easy to record something. There's a webinar that can live around that kind of slightly bigger world. There's other guides, or other people do white papers. Once you've got that seed, once you know for something, it does make the whole content creation process a lot easier, because you're not going into it wondering every time what am I going to talk about? You know broadly what I'm going to talk about and then it's just the specifics for each occasion. Did you find that to be the case as well? As the message got honed in and dialed in, it became easier to create content.

Eric: Yes, absolutely Absolutely. And what's funny is that I think that can be countered. I think some people may think, well, once I have that topic, then I'm kind of done, and I've talked about that topic, now I have to jump to a whole new theme. But actually you don't, and I've had that feedback from clientele as well. One example coming to mind is I do some work for an incredible company in Lake Tahoe and do some consulting work with them and a series of training.

And I asked the broker-johner you know, what should I tell? Is there some specific thing you'd like me to talk about? Is there something new that's on the mind of your realtor, some new challenge? And he just said, *Eric: *, just keep talking about what you've already been talking about, like they can't hear that enough. So, yeah, it's the repetition. That's where you get the real value right and where people really start to get it. And then, as people, as I got that feedback, I started to think about my own experience and the people that I've learned from, like Dean and like yeah, I've heard the same thing. Or Dan Sullivan, or on and on right, I've heard them say that before, but this time they said it in maybe a slightly new way, or I was now in the right place to hear it in a way that I needed to hear it. So there's nothing. I think sometimes us, as we as coaches, content creators, we get fearful of being repetitive, or we're kind of averse, or we worry about that, and no, I think that just stay with that theme.

Stuart:Yeah, I was just saying to someone yesterday that you're the only person who sees all of your content. Even your most engaged client or listener out is still only consuming a tenth of what you're putting out there. Even if they're listening to everything, it's in the background and they don't quite hear everything and they'll miss an email here or post there. So it's only you as the creator that sees everything, and the other people just see the very small pieces. And, as you say, it's not only that you might say in a slightly different way the tenth time you say it, it's that they're in a different place and here and ready to hear it, which that element of repetition and being out in front of people a lot at every opportunity is really the difference maker between just hoping that you happen to intersect with someone at the right point in time versus always presenting those opportunities to intersect whenever is the right point for them.

Eric: Yes.

Stuart:There's one of the scorecard the book blueprint scorecard, mindsets is this idea of beneficial constraints. So we talk there both in terms of time frame like putting a constraint on it in terms of actually getting it done, but also a constraint in terms of the breadth and the scope, because if you're trying to include everything, you'll never get around to it. It's much easier to create something that's on message. But also the other element of it is and again this came off in the conversation yesterday if you try and include everything just in the book but you kind of hoping that one tool does all of the work, which is unlikely the majority of people just skim and whether it's 70 pages or 700 pages doesn't really make a meaningful difference. Having that additional content in the email follow-up sequence or in social media that's referring to the book, using the book as the excuse to talk about it, all of that downstream stuff and the scope outside of the book much more effective and efficient than just trying to jam it all in those pages.

Eric: Absolutely absolutely.

Stuart:Yeah, let the book be the start and then have all the other pieces of content that queued up as follow-up Right because the point that you made you can say the exact same things in the 10 days of the email afterwards and hopefully by the 10th day it will resonate and someone will say, oh, this is what I need whereas I just might miss it in the first instance, this idea of scope constraint.

then, was there anything as you were creating the content and thinking what should and shouldn't be included? Was it easy to stay on message and on target and not run the risk of scope creep derailing the project a little bit? Was there anything that you initially thought you wanted to include but then eventually didn't include?

Eric:That wasn't a challenge for me. Only because I had taught this content live and I've taught it in a webinar. I had to benefit it, where I had already organized the content. My fear was that there wasn't enough, and that's probably a common thing with the authors that you come across. Well, this turned into enough pages and why even be able to talk for 90 minutes? And, oh my gosh, it was so smooth.

The process was so seamless, it was so easy and it easily took up 90 minutes with no problem. I loved the process in that you said okay, we have nine chapters and I do some initial writing, and then you create the outline. We have nine chapters and you're just going to talk for 10 minutes on each chapter. I was like, oh my gosh, that makes much sense, that's so easy, I can do that. I can talk about this for 10 minutes, no problem Prompting with questions, and so yeah, it's funny because so many people get caught up.

Stuart:and I guess it's only funny because we've been doing this for 10, 11 years now and you get so used to your own process you forget that other people things can seem like magic tricks, like what you would take as the base level, so I always forget that. People typically are coming in thinking about the end product and thinking about writing in like a school exercise or college exercise in the traditional way of doing it, which is what traditional publishing is. Here's some money up front, lock yourself in the cabin for six months and I expect to see something finished when we let you out. But the whole premise around the outline, that setup stage before you even think about recording that outline stage, is by far the most valuable because it gives it a structure and a framework and a constraints and a roadmap to each individual bite size piece. That makes the bringing together all the elements so much easier.

Eric: Yes, it was so simple and so brilliant all at the same time. And I didn't understand the 10 minutes per chapter thing until I was told that I was sent the outline. Here you go. Here's based on the initial writing that you sent us. Here's the outline nine chapters. I was like oh great. And then for the interview, she said okay, you're going to talk for 10 minutes for each chapter. And I was like genius, Now I have a roadmap and now that's just an easy way to stay on track. I'm all about frameworks, I'm all about outlines, making things easy, I'm all about plug and play. So the fact that you gave that to me, it just made me feel so comfortable and relaxed and it was easy to flow.

Stuart:That familiar piece that ties in with the scorecard as well, your scorecard for the process itself Giving people tools and techniques, things that they can either well both really conceptualize the idea, but then there's an exercise or a framework or a set of guidelines that they can see themselves progressing or act as reminders that, oh, I'm recognizing this pattern of behavior. Therefore, I know I need to do this piece. When people the book itself obviously is this introduction to the conversation it's more about setting the scene for what people can do and giving them some pointers, rather than the complete solution Only, if nothing else, because the complete solution is bigger than just a book. But this idea of bridging between ideas and tools and tactics, Is that something that's developed over the lifecycle of the program? And what's the feedback that you get from people who are using the system? Do they appreciate those tools as much as the ideas, or is it more the idea that resonates and then they're kind of figuring out for themselves?

Eric: They appreciate understanding the concept and then being given this, given the solution. This is what we need to overcome and this is how this is exactly how you're going to do it. So I think sometimes people can get frustrated with only hearing theory, like, yeah, that's interesting, but what do I do with that? So I've learned the hard way not to do that, because I love to teach theory, but I figured out to be good also at giving the specific tactic. And then also I find that if it's only tactic and people don't understand how it fits conceptually or the reasoning behind it, there's less likely to implement it. So I found that you have to do both. So here's how I do it.

Here's this thing down, pushy, selling, common objection. This is the problem that it's causing for you. It's keeping you from doing these certain things. And people say, yes, that makes sense, I get it, that's true. And then here's how you solve it. So I have a thing in the book called the architecture of help. So this is how you frame up a conversation with someone that can potentially lead to you helping them with their real estate, and it's just, you know, simple, four-part framework. And so that's how I think about it and that's kind of what I've learned through my coaching and teaching.

Stuart:And particularly I mean specifically for your example, I think for anyone out there being able to give people frameworks or acronyms or things that they can easily like, understanding where they are in the journey.

So they have come across you in some way, either relatively high level in a Facebook account or relatively more detailed. They might have been on a list for a period of time. Now they get into the stage where they want to know more because the problem resonates with them individually. So they're opting in for a copy of the book because they want to start the conversation to resolve this problem, but understanding exactly where they are in the process and giving them enough tools that it makes it feel worthwhile, but either not baiting, switching into something else or being too superficial and not really giving valuable information. But it's the perfect blend frameworks and acronyms and small steps that they can take. It's the perfect blend of positioning it at the right level that this isn't. There is a course, there is coaching, there is more stuff further down the track, but at this point, at this time in this funnel, this is the right information to share with them. It really helps position the right amount of value at the right time that they're developing the relationship and moving forward towards doing something.

Eric: Yes, absolutely. Something I learned from from Frank Kern, and I know Dean would 100% align with. This is the best way to demonstrate to someone that you can help them is to help them. And when I learned that I'm like, oh my gosh, that is so good and I'm just going to completely run with that. And I know I mean Dean's whole business, 90-minute books everything is built on that same philosophy and it so works. So, yeah, I found it's really valuable to give someone a quick win, like you got to get them, just if you can give them a quick win. And then you now they have momentum and progress and that you know feels good as the coach, as the trainer, and then you've increased the odds that they want to work with you more right.

Stuart:Exactly, and that's actually a great bridge into the kind of the back cover and the call to action in the book. So the next steps that people can take after they've kind of read and consumed and they kind of have that certainty that they're in the right on the right page and going the right direction, bridging people from the content of the book to a next step you probably get an advantage, maybe to some people listening, because you've got quite an established set of attributes, that or assets there already the webinars and their online material and some other supporting material. But once that transition, like what's the first steps that you want them to take after they've read it?

Eric: Well, I this is another chance to give credit to the process and the coaching that I got, because my thinking going in was okay, I want someone to get the book and then I want them to sign up for one of the four or five day challenges or free master classes that I do, and because that's I found recently, that's that is by far the most effective way for me to market what I do.

But the coaching I got was hey, let's create another little step that in between, just to make it really super easy, really non-threatening for the person they're going to get to know you even more. And so the coaching I got was to create just a checklist, just a one pager, on non-pushy conversation starters, and I was like that's genius, that's so good, so that that that'll be. People will hear about my challenges and the master classes in the book. But, like, the most prominent next step called action will be hey, go to this website to download your just a one pager on non-pushy conversation starters, and then it will be market marketing by master classes and challenges.

Stuart:Right, and that's so. The setup that we have for the back covers this idea of we're trying to meet, meet three groups of people where they are. The tag kickers want a nicer term, needs to think of a nicer term. But those people who are interested, but not interested enough to really raise the hand, so, like that, just go here for more content. Then there's the people who are kind of ready, know they're in the right place but aren't quite ready to jump on board with any real commitment yet. And then the people who are ready, those three groups.

It is such a great job of meeting all the readers where they are, whether they're coming to you from the first time, so they really need a little bit more time to build up that level of credibility or the no-liking trust in order to take a step.

The opportunity at this middle stage to still have an opt-in, to still have people sign up for something. But it seemed very non-committal and very non-threatening. So that's the perfect mix for people who get a copy of the book who haven't downloaded it, so maybe they'd buy it from Amazon or they're giving it from someone else. You don't know who those people are yet, so that's a very easy way to get them on the list. And then, of course, the people who are ready to go in a more meaningful way to go now. I think for most business owners, that idea those three groups of people that's applicable to everyone in every scenario 99.9% of the people who have a copy of the book in the handle on their screen they're going to fall into one of those three camps. And it's such an easy way of pacing out the conversation so that you're not trying to immediately go for the sell. Well, it's the non-pushy way of kind of moving people down the track.

Eric: Exactly, you know.

Stuart:Yeah, it's such a great option. And then that ties nicely into the kind of after the book, beyond the book, element of your setup, because then you can introduce them to the whole rest of the world. They're regular emails to keep that edutainment going a little bit and build that relationship more, always presenting people the opportunity to make the next step. You've already got webinar contents and video contents and documented type content. So just the fact that the book very easily slots into the funnel, either at the front end as the lead magnet to begin with, or even later on the process. Someone attends the webinar. They didn't convert immediately, so follow up with them with a copy of the book and say, hey, great, see, on the webinar. We talked a lot about this particular element. We cover that more detail in chapter three here. So I wanted to get you a copy of the book whenever you're ready. Do this piece. It just really sits. The book has an asset, sits so nicely into the funnels that you've got.

Eric: Yeah, stuart, that's good coaching, I'm gonna make note of that. I love it as a follow-up. I haven't thought about it as a follow-up piece, but that makes complete sense.

Stuart:Right and it's such a it's so difficult. Jumping back to the point you were saying before that most people are who you're having conversation with. For me and for you, they're at the early stage of the conversation and there's a lot more high level stuff or more detailed stuff, more nuanced stuff that you could go into. But the reality is we're really we need to get past this hurdle first, so we spend so much of our time talking about this stuff. But the fact that the book now exists and you've been a client for a period of time and you're already kind of three or four steps down the track, so now we can have these conversations about the more nuanced piece. But you can imagine a it's like a two, three-dimensional chess game of here's all of the assets that you've got and here's some of the big battleship type assets and here's some of the smaller assets. But these big ones, they can really be used in multiple different contexts in different pieces of the funnel and because it's the same subject, they're really just building on each other to.

The webinar reinforces a book. The book reinforces the webinar. The emails can talk about either of them and just drop into bits of the conversation. The social media posts can use it as a a thing in the background of the image. So you kind of got it there, kind of subtly reminding people that it exists.

Now that you've created it, now the fun starts, because you get to plug it into all of these different places yes, yes, excited, yeah yeah, it's easy to get excited about it, and rightly so, I think, because it is something the whole purpose of the company that we started was to kind of democratize.

This process of everyone thinks about a traditional book or a bestseller and all of this kind of million-dollar listing nonsense ended the spectrum which for most people is.

I mean, if any of that happened, then great, it's not a bad thing, but it's an irrelevant distraction to the real job of work of getting it out there and having it as the opportunity to use it when you go speaking at an event to be able to give a copy of the book. It's just an increase if other organizations or the businesses where they might do a lot of face-to-face selling the fact that you can walk in, or even the agents, I mean you can imagine a complete tangent now but you can imagine writing you writing for your agency, you coach book that allows them to demonstrate their expertise or their approach to this is my approach to non-pushy sales, non-pushy real estate, because everyone on both sides of transaction doesn't almost as reluctant to open the door because they don't want to be hit in the face by someone being pushy, but I'm going to sell your house through a non-pushy approach and as part of the package that we're doing, the listing presentation.

Here's the non-pushing book the fact that exists and the fact that it exists in physical format and the fact that someone's giving it to someone else, the fact that it's sharing more value. There's just so many opportunities absolutely it's a detached from whether it's a best seller, whether it's this big versus this big or all of the traditional elements that just don't move the needle as much as some other stuff right, exactly, I, yeah, I just wanted to be known as the non-pushy selling guy.

Eric: I just I wanted, and so I knew the way to do that was to have a book, and I was lucky in that. I've I had experience having a book before and I so I know what it's like when you hand someone a book. Here's a book that I wrote and it just they're blown away. People are blown away in a very good way. They always say you wrote this. Oh, my god, you wrote this book. Yeah, I wrote that book, and so if anyone listening I need some inspiration to to do this, you know, write the book, like just do it, because there's nothing like handing someone or emailing them a book and telling them that you wrote it. It blows their mind and their and your credibility just goes through through the roof.

Stuart:Yeah, it's funny, I like to say. We've been doing this for 10, 10 years now. 10, 11 years now. Time goes fast and almost from the start, all the way through, we've described the company is a real marketing company. We're not a publishing company. We just coincidentally stumbled on the fact that books are the most effective way to capture leads in the first place and then convert leads over time. But even from the start it there was still a feeling of the magic of this is going to wear off. This is a point in time where a book has an outsized credibility impact compared with the effort that we know it takes to create it, because there is effort but it's a relatively known quantity. But even 10 years later that effect.

There was a podcast that will probably be maybe five before this one podcast with Paul Ross. He said exactly the same thing. So he's a podiatrist, he's written a couple of books. The latest one was my damn toe hurts, but he was saying exactly the same. He'll have people come into the office, sometimes with the copy of the book and we'll quote back to him the things that he said, or they'll come into the office and not know that he's the actual doctor they'll be seeing and they'll say oh, I've read your book. You're the person that wrote the book, so that same experience that you've had is across the board and it's definitely something that is makes the whole project. It's the cream on the top of the project. If that didn't happen, it would still be worthwhile doing, but the fact that it does happen is kind of in a tangible boost. It's almost difficult to quantify, but it definitely puts a glow around the whole thing and yes it's quite magical.

Eric: Yeah, it is magical. Yeah, I learned from a gentleman named Adam Witte several years ago that if we all want to be an authority on a topic and the way to be an authority is to be an author, Like the root word of authority is author, and that's just really hit home for me. And again I've watched it happen. I wrote a book called the real estate agents guide to getting your act together, and so it's just a fun book to hand people and again they're just. They always say wait, you wrote this. Then you almost become like a celebrity.

Stuart:So, on the one hand, it's kind of it makes you kind of a couple of little things I did and then, on the other hand, you're thinking, yeah, I did, why is that so unbelievable? Right, this is why I love about doing these podcasts with people, because it really gets the real stories out and the we can say it to people. But it's not the same as hearing it first hand from people and, regardless of whether people work with us or do it by themselves or work with someone else, the opportunity that people have got to get this asset out there and the fact that it's so disproportionately benefit compared with the time and money and investment into doing it. It's one of the I truly believe it's one of the best things that you can do, because it's just got so much. There's so many opportunities to leverage it.

Eric: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, my pleasure.

Stuart:I want to make sure that people got opportunity to follow along with your journey a little bit more and get a copy of the book and find out more about what you do. So what's a great place for people to go to to follow the *Eric: * story and keep abreast of what's going on so they can?

Eric: get the book, and I'm expecting the book will be be ready on this website by the time. This is public, non pushy selling bookcom. By the way, I was really excited to get that URL. And then my website is inspire, perform, profit, calm. Inspire, perform, profit, calm. More about me, and then that's also where people can find out about the master classes and challenges that I do for free for realtors. So that's in that.

Stuart:Fantastic and there's a wealth of information over there, so definitely recommend people check that out. We'll make sure we put the links in the show notes as well, so if people are on the move and miss that, then just look for the link either in the podcast player or on the website where the episode is up will put links straight to those places.

Eric: Right.

Stuart: Eric, it's been fantastic. I know the books just about to come out, so this podcast is. I think we're maybe 10 days or so away from releasing this, so there's a deadline on getting the website up. It'll be great to check back in in six or seven months and then see how it's been going and just feedback with people what the what the responses been and what the lessons have been and maybe some of the marketing campaigns you've done with the book once it's been created. Check back in and see how that's gone.

Eric: I'd be happy to more than happy to Fantastic.

Stuart:Well, thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone, as always, thanks for listening. Check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.

Eric: Thanks so much.

Most real estate agents hate the pushy stereotype, but they don't know how to sell without feeling slimy. Eric Thompson spent 30 years figuring out the answer.

As a real estate coach working with agents across the US and Canada, Eric saw the same problem everywhere. Good agents were struggling because they thought selling meant becoming someone they weren't. His solution? The 'Non-Pushy Selling System' that works with who you already are.

Eric's book 'Sell More Houses and Have Happy Clients' introduces his system and generates leads for his coaching business. You'll hear how he identified a universal problem in real estate, created a trademark-worthy solution, and uses his book to convert prospects over time.

Whether you're in real estate or any other industry where selling feels uncomfortable, Eric's approach shows how to position your expertise as the natural solution to what people already struggle with.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/150-owning-a-category-with-eric-thompson/

About Eric Thompson: Website | LinkedIn

30 Strategies to Build Your Business with a Book — The playbook behind 1,200+ books that start conversations and bring in clients. Yours free. Get a Free Copy

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Heidi Ardis, Founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, a faith-based financial firm, about financial planning strategies and retirement goals and how she's developed a long-term approach to finding clients.

Heidi shares insights from her new book Simplified Strategies for Retirees, which outlines practical yet straightforward approaches that start a conversation about retirement planning.

We explore the concept of a purposeful retirement focused on human connection and identity beyond finances and how helping people doing missionary work start their financial journey has led to a broad network of happy clients.

This is a great conversation about developing relationships and how a series of easy-to-digest books can lead to many opportunities to add value to potential clients.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart:Hey everyone, welcome back to another Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here and today excited to be joined by another one of our viewers of the show. Great to have you here.

Heidi:Thanks, I'm happy to be here.

Stuart:Excited, fantastic. So it's always funny when I speak to people because I always see the books going through the system, but I don't always get chance to speak to people beforehand. So I kind of know people from the perspective of what they've written about, not necessarily their bigger background, and obviously the audience is meeting you for the first time. So why don't we start with a little bit of background about you and the organization? You're down in Mississippi, right?

Heidi:I am yes, we're in Biloxi's that we're here on the Gulf Coast. We're actually about to have Cruise in the Coast happen here, which is the world's largest antique car show that we host every year here in Biloxi. But I am Heidi Artis. I am the founder and CEO of Agape Wealth, which is really a faith-based financial firm. It was developed over a long period of time with my faith and my family.

I've been a financial advisor since 2006 and really over the last four years have focused specifically on income distribution and retirement planning for people who are headed into retirement or just wanting to make sure that they're on the right track to get there. So the book Simplified Strategies for Retirees was written for that reason to help people have a little book, because I know a lot of people don't actually like to sit down and read long big books anymore, but really something just simple where people can refer back to it, look at it. And it's written in plain English, because sometimes in the financial world or any professional industry we like to get over complicated with things. So that really was the mindset behind the book is to help people focus on what are some good strategies, what am I looking for and how do I get there, and so that was really the reason for the company being founded as well.

Stuart:And that tying in with the methodology and your approach. When people actually meet you in person or on Zoom these days and actually have that real conversation, the tie in between the books that they've read, that started the conversation and what you're then saying to them, it really makes a difference as opposed to the typical corporate jargon based information that's out there. There's no real connection and I think what you guys provide to people is not only the nuts and bolts of the technical solutions, but it's really the rounded, more holistic approach to building a relationship over time and helping them. Was that part and parcel of the idea of bringing it together in a book, this idea of kind of ceding the conversation, knowing that you were eventually going to speak to people in this way?

Heidi:I mean and I'm actually in the process of writing another article right now for Kipling's, your magazine, about having a purposeful retirement, because retirement isn't just about your money you know, we work and work and then we get to retirement, and a lot of people, especially in the current generation of the baby boomers who are retiring their parents came from the generation that grew up during depression, post-depression, and so they had this mindset if you don't work, you don't eat. And so now they get to this point where, okay, well, I'm not going to work anymore. So what am I? Who am I? And so our goal here at Agave Wealth is to sit down with you and say, okay, the money is one thing, and we're going to get to that, obviously, but what do you want? Who do you want to be? What do you want to develop?

Your retirement years should be the best years of your life, so let's drive that. Let's figure out what our goals are, what our dreams are. Do you want to pick up a new hobby? Do you want to be somebody who volunteers? Do you want to be a part of a church? What do you want to do? That's going to bring that purpose back to your life, because you're not just an employee and that's what we look at. Our whole life is okay. Well, I go to work, I take care of my kids, I do all of this stuff I have to do. Now I get to the point where I don't have to do those things. Now what? So that's really the purpose behind the book, too, is hey, let's get to that point where we can have a purposeful, meaningful, simplified plan that puts you where you want to be.

Stuart:Because, as you say, so much of the technical nuts and bolts is achievable. It's your individual approach to retirement planning is obviously can be tailored for each person. There's only so many tools in the toolkit that you're pulling from but to really dial into the lifestyle that they want, and not just sub-products that have an outcome, but that outcome is matched to what they want to do. It's funny, isn't it? It's kind of when you're in working age you meet someone for the first time and one of the first questions is what do you do? People's whole presence is so attributed to their career and the works of their business that having all of this free time all of a sudden, it can be quite I imagine it can be quite overwhelming.

Heidi:It's definitely over. Well, with social media and with our jobs, we get disconnected from human interaction, and I think retirement is that time where we can get back to being interconnected, you know, with our community and with each other in a way that's not just based on the day-to-day grind of life, it's based on what you really want from you know from the last 30 years of your life what do you want to do?

Stuart:Without the constraints. You kind of got an open canvas. You mentioned the faith-based element of the work that you do and the clients that you service. Is that intentionally a large part of the audience or is it a coincidentally a large part of the audience?

Heidi:Not necessarily. I think that's more a personal thing. You know we don't seek out just faith-based clients. I think it's more for people to know that everything that I do is purposefully driven inside from my face. So, you know, I want my outward being to reflect the inside. So the company's name a guy is the Greek word for love and how we are supposed to sacrificially love our fellow man the way that God loves us, and so it's really more personal in terms of you know, there's no judgment on our side for who you are, who you want to become. It's my job to reflect that. I'm going to love and put good into the world, regardless of you know, what's going on externally.

Stuart:It's interesting. I asked because I was working with another client just last week, so it's obviously top of my mind we were looking at their businesses is similar, but they probably focus a little bit more on the church side of things. Almost coincidentally, it's obviously very important to them and there's only so many hours in the week and their week is filled with working with those clients, so that's just coincidentally, the direction it was going. So I was thinking in terms of addressability of the market or the language that you use when you're talking to people. So it's something that I always pick up on because it's not part of my background.

I think it's not reflected in the same way in the UK as it is in the US, so it's been across here. It just stands out a little bit more. But this idea of talking in the language that the audience resonates with the people who you want to work with resonates with and, as you say, with no judgment or bias against the people who use different language. But it's still a very fulfilling I don't know if that's quite the right word, but it's a very fulfilling way to talk about it because there's a commonality and of approach or direction, or there are only so many hours in the week, and if you happen to work with those people that resonate more, all the better.

Heidi:Well, I think for me, I actually like working with people who feel differently.

Just because of the fact that there's a lot in terms of religion, I guess that it has a lot of negativity associated with it, and because of that, we created a company to show that's not how it's really supposed to be, because if you are a follower of Christ, christ didn't discriminate, and so we want people to feel welcome, no matter who you are, who your background is.

We do actually work with some churches. One of our give backs is that we help global missionaries around the world to have financial advice that sound, and we do it at a pretty significant reduction in cost for them, just because they're traveling into remote areas of the world and most of the time they don't have a lot of money and so good financial advisors don't necessarily have the time or want to work with them because it's not really making them much money. So our give back is really working with global missionaries to help them get sound financial advice, but our main focus is really just working with retirees. Now, you do have to be nice. I don't necessarily want to work with people who are rude and obnoxious, but other than that, you know, we don't really preface who can or cannot be a part of the you need to be nice should be a rule on everyone's front door.

Stuart:That's kind of both the front door to the business coming in and their front door going out.

Heidi:It's definitely that's the beauty of owning your own company, Right? You get to be selective in who you work with. So and that's the thing too for a retiree or somebody who is to find a financial advisor, you know, if you don't fit with somebody just because they're smart, that is not a really good reason to choose them.

Stuart:Right, that's that idea that you have a broad choice if you want to work with, and picking the people who either resonate because they've got saying they're going in the same direction or it's just something that you resonate with more.

It's a life will be very long and maybe wouldn't make it to retirement if everything was a flight and a struggle all the way through.

Right, the point you made about the missionary work. That's an interesting element as well because there's my wife's a kindergarten teacher so we've we have our second marriage kind of reconnected later in life, but as a kindergarten teacher it's not the most financially rewarding of careers very rewarding in other ways, but not financially. And I imagine the mission needs in the same position is oftentimes you think that in order to plan for retirement you need a certain amount of disposable income to be able to get to that point where I think in the long arc of someone's career, if you start earlier, even if it's a very small amount, that just sets you up for more success in the future. So across the clients who work with maybe not just necessarily the missionary people Do you find that the people are almost reluctant to get involved in a conversation because they think they assume that they've got no options and choices, so kind of bury their heads in the sand where actually if they did something they might have a better outcome.

Heidi:It's really about the due diligence of just starting, and I do think that people who have lower income levels feel defeated before they even get started, and so learning to live within one's meetings, regardless of what those means are, is the key, and paying yourself first. Obviously, you know if it comes to buying the new TV or having to put money away for your future. Maybe the TV can wait, but we've been conditioned to want everything right now and not looking towards saving up for the future. But I don't think that it matters how much money you make. It's more about percentages and what we're doing to get to the end goal, because I mean, if you're making your missionary and you're living on the lower income, or if you're a teacher and you're living on those means well, you can retire based on that and still have the same lifestyle.

Stuart:Right. Actually, that's a great point, isn't it? I think it's the same. I was talking to the podcast that will come out. The one before this was talking to Mike, who's a podcast producer, and was talking about who he gets to work with, and the assumption from people having podcasts is they compare themselves to NPR shows or Joe Rogan and if there are 100,000 downloads then it's not worth doing, which is obviously a ridiculous end of the spectrum. But with the social media element of people seeing the extremes of success, I think people get overly disheartened and forget that if they're trying to replicate what there are now, then that's not a million dollar retirement, that's 100,000, maybe, or 50,000 or still something that isn't zero.

Heidi:Right. Well, I mean, that's a societal and cultural problem in the West period to go to cultural extremes and focus on those instead of really what we should be focusing on, which is the middle. You know, the middle area in the middle of the road. You know, kind of like an argument there's two sides to every story and there's a truth somewhere, but it's usually not on anyone's side.

So I think that the same thing goes for money or any other aspect of life. It's, you know, focus on what you want and where you want to go, and you need to set a goal. And most of the time when we set goals, we actually achieve them much faster than we set. So we say we got a five year goal and at two years you've already hit your five year goal and now we're moving on, and so it's really just setting a goal and headed. You know, if you get in a car and you don't turn on your GPS and you just drive, well, we don't know where we're going to land in the destination. But if you do put it, you have a destination and you're going to get there.

Stuart:Right. It really is the case that people underestimate the long term and overestimate the short term and get to certain and much quicker than I think people did in the past. The people that you work with are they mainly in the local area or do you have a statewide footprint or a national footprint?

Heidi:Yeah, so I work. I mean, the bulk of my clients are probably in Mississippi. However, I do have clients in several states now, just because with me working with internet and internationally with missionaries and things like that. We have clients in Ohio and Florida and Texas and you know probably seven or eight different states, but that's always growing because you know once one person especially if you're in the church world you know they travel around the lot. So people refer to other places. But and we have a lot of military where we're at, where I live in Biloxi, there's three different military bases here. So you know clients sign up here but then they move to other locations. So we do a lot of zoom meetings.

Stuart:Right. Well, and that's something that again has changed in the last couple of years. That just broadens the footprint so much it just removes the barrier to. In the past someone would have moved and then automatically thought they would need to change the people that they work with, just because it's in practical. But now it's much, much more straightforward the idea that people move and once you're there, go to person, you can now stay there, go to person or wherever they are physically across the board. I'm always interested in people's experience of referrals within the business and how kind of orchestrated they are, or whether they coincidentally come up. The people who you work with. Do you get the feeling that they regularly remember to refer you, or is it kind of after the fact and thinking? I was talking to Bob last week and I should have mentioned it and I forgot.

Heidi:So I think both are true. However, I would say my clients because I do a very personalized approach with them are more likely to refer. I mean, they call me and text me and they're telling me hey, I was just sitting down with a friend of mine and told them how excited I am about the plan that you put together. So you know, I'm going to send them your way, and that happens a lot without me even asking. But I think if you're in the corporate world, working in that big box firm, and you're looking for referrals, it's not necessarily as organic just because I mean I've worked in that world, and it's harder because you have to ask for a referral based on a plan that's put together in a box. It's this cookie cutter. Well, you're 35 and you have this much money and you are aggressive, so you fit in X and thank God I don't have to do that any longer.

Stuart:But spreadsheets and having a conversation with people for real.

Heidi:I mean my clients know my children, they know my husband, they get to meet my family. I want to meet their families because retirement isn't, or even any kind of financial planning. I mean, one of my biggest clients is 35. She has three daughters. So I say to them you know, let's get to know each other on a personal level, because if all I know about you is what you tell me about how you live, but then it's not necessarily the same as interacting with you on a personal level. And so we want to be able to do that for people and that's more building a family type office instead of just let's run people through here like Walmart to generate as much revenue as possible, because if that's your goal, I mean that's fine, but that's just not necessarily what I'm looking for. My clients.

Stuart:A different service and your ability to interact and understand them. You know them as much as they know you. It really makes a difference to have a call with someone who you know and have something in a relationship with, rather than just an account number who's dialing into a call centre.

Heidi:And inevitably you know in the industry that we work in, somebody is going to pass away and we want to be able to make sure that their family knows that we knew them and that we are enacting their wishes and not just a beneficiary on a page. And here you go, here's the money. We want to sit down and have a true, one on one, real conversation with families in those hard times and say this is what your parents or this is what you know, your grandma or whomever said they wanted for you, and that just means more to the person whenever those times come about to and it's a connection that not many other people have.

Stuart:I mean, the type of conversations that you'll have with people about their legacy and what they want are very open and candid and are there to be had. It's not like it was a sad conversation that popped up when they were talking to a family member. You're talking specifically about the outcome, so I guess that must offer some clarity to the family members who are left behind. There's no ambiguity. You don't have an ulterior motive.

Heidi:You just there to share the wishes at that time, which, again, is very that's one of the themes in the book to I think one of the chapters in the book does discuss use Number one saying no to an advisor or saying no to the person you're working with. You need to get the courage to say no, that's not what I want. Or, you know, I want to work with somebody else. But there's a lot of different approaches in the financial world where you're either in a corporate or maybe you're working with, like an Edward Jones type office and there's one advisor and there's one assistant, but they have, you know, 500 clients, so you don't necessarily get personalized service because they have to maintain all of those accounts. Or you know there's a team of people and you go in to meet in the office and you don't know who you're meeting with. You're just going in and meeting with someone that is available, right.

So I created this company to be something different, something different than that. We don't want people to feel like, if you come in for a meeting, we want you to sit down on the couch, have a cup of coffee, let's talk, let's just interact for a little while before we actually go in and get into the conversations of. You know what's happening in your monetary life and, yeah, having those deep personal conversations most of the time we're able to find out more about you than you know. Sometimes you even know about yourself from the questions that we're asking.

Stuart:Right. That's actually a great point the whole chapter around saying no and being clear on what you want, rather than getting swept up just in the conversation. The idea of you being able to ask the questions that from what is it that you want to do in retirement, what is it that you want for your legacy, who is it that you want to be the beneficiary, and what is it that you think is what difference do you want to make in those lives? Those are questions that particularly I don't know whether it's in more of an issue with a slightly older generation, but there's definitely people who avoid those conversations because they don't want to talk about death and unless you actually do the job of sitting down and running through it, I can imagine a scenario where no one's ever asked those questions and then things happen and paths go in a completely different direction. That feedback that you get from people, the kind of eye-opening moment of oh actually, I see what you're saying. This is what I really mean Is that an experience that you get often from clients?

Heidi:Yeah, and that usually prompts other things right. So that will prompt me to say, okay, well, it's probably important, if that's specifically what you want, that we need to go meet with the attorney and make sure that we have a will and a trust in place that are going to do those things. But if your main goal is to spend every dollar and you know on your deathbed to balance the last check, I mean, then we may not necessarily need an estate plan, but we probably should put something in place just in case. But I mean and sometimes we have to make those conversations lighthearted because you don't want people to feel downtrodden by the conversation of you know, we're all going to die someday.

So you know, specifically, if there's a couple where there's a pretty big age gap with the husband or the wife, you know we do have to have the conversation that you know this one you're probably going to pass away before. So we need to have a plan in place. Especially if you have a pension or you're going to lose the social security or there's some income that's going to be lost, we need to make sure that when that happens, that we are prepared for that. So I think it makes them feel better because as married couples, most of the time we're not talking about that with each other and we don't want to make our spouse feel uncomfortable. So when I am prompting the conversation, you know there's a lot of times you know we have to be just as good a marriage counselors as we do it because 99% of the time the couples are polar opposite One is very strong in saving and the other one is a spender.

And you have to find the middle road where you say, okay, I understand that you are a super saver, but you know you have enough, let's have a little bit of enjoyment with what we've done, or you have to bring it back in. And so, yeah, having that conversation it prompts, you know, a lot of dialogue in the meeting, but most of the time it's not really heavy, because I don't necessarily talk about death. I'm just saying you know things are going to happen. We need to be prepared for the what ifs.

Stuart:Right, and particularly starting from the point of view as we started this conversation, talking about how you're entering retirement. This is a time where you're not encumbered by other work responsibilities, so it's the opportunity to do what you want to do rather than saying okay, you're approaching death, so let's get everything lined up, step out of the door. It's a more focused on the positives and the opportunities, rather than the contingency and the what ifs.

Heidi:It's a great time to reconnect with your spouse on a more personalized, intimate level in terms of conversation and relationship.

Stuart:Right, yeah, yeah, it's losing number. Of years ago was she was moving to schools and had a period between schools so she was doing some. She's quite organized if you could see my office here I don't let her in here, but she's much more organized than me. So she was doing some like home organization type thing, but she's only did it for a month or two and only for people that she knew quite well, because inevitably it would turn into five minutes of organization conversation and five minutes of marriage guidance and therapy around why people are collecting so many things. So I can imagine the conversation about money is even more charged in that respect.

Heidi:It's probably very similar because the way people live is typically the way they use their money, right. So it's honestly probably very similar because, just like you said, I am much more organized, probably than my husband, who has cabinets stuffed with things you know and I'm like let's just throw it away. But that's typically the case in most instances. You know one is one way and one is the other, but trying to find that balance. Trying to find balance, yeah.

Stuart:Let's put this slide into the book and the Herod plan on using the book. So we often talk about the book's been using kind of three ways. There's the lead generation, at the top of the funnel, kind of introducing to new people. There's the conversion tool, if you like, for one of the better term but using it in real life, giving it to someone as a kind of an amplification of a conversation you've already had. And then the referral strategy, so the clients you've got who know, like and trust you, letting them know that this is available. So it's a great tool to give to people who they know, who are talking about their financial planning and wealth management. Did you go into the project? Did you have a particular view on how you're planning on using it? Was it one of those ways or another way?

Heidi:So I think the main way I wanted to use it is number one for my clients, so that they can, you know, share that with their friends. It's an easy way for them to share the ideas that we're using with family members or friends and say, you know, even if you don't want to work with the same person I'm working with well, she wrote a little bit of a book that can maybe help you guide yourself, because some people just want to do it themselves. But also I think the book helps with yeah, obviously, lead generation will put it on the website and people can download the book and use that as a tool for them. But main focus was to help show that we can take complex issues and make them simple, and so there'll be probably a series of books for different things. You know, for women entrepreneurs, we want to write a book for that.

I even want to write a simplified strategies for children so that they can understand how to start saving and investing and giving back and understand the importance of those things as well. So we're going to write a few books, but mainly they're more self help books for the general public to say, okay, if I'm looking for something that I don't have to spend, you know, five hours or six hours to get through. But you know, these books are much smaller, you know, and I can go look at the chapter and say, hey, here's a good section for me to use to help me to generate some knowledge for myself.

Stuart:That's the thing I like about all of the clients that we work with this idea that breaking away from the traditional book, the traditional published book constraints if it has to be 200 pages to justify a $15 shelf price because the publisher wants to make $10 and then maybe $2 will trickle down to a person who also is basing their financial income on book sales. Breaking that model completely into this is the start of a conversation and just giving someone that bite size, valuable way of starting the journey in a in an accessible way. We often talk about kind of books that you could read on a flight. So at home it appears in Pennsylvania and the offices down in Florida. When I used to I drive now, but when I used to fly it was a two hour flight and jumping on and reading something and consuming that and being able to get off the plane knowing that there was a next step to take. It makes it so much more accessible and so much more kind of like democratizing the information and sharing that with useful ways.

I really love the idea of this series that helps each individual group within the overall framework, but he helps each individual group just start that journey in the most meaningful way, going through the process obviously the book's complete now at the end of the process going through it, was there anything that you went into it expecting or thinking that was, that you wanted to include it eventually? Eventually didn't get included. This idea of kind of beneficial constraints is always one I'm kind of harping onto people about, the idea of start small and then add later, rather than going into this huge idea of a project and it being overwhelming. So was there anything that you went into it, thinking would you definitely want to include that? You then pushed for later or decided that it was out of scope.

Heidi:Not necessarily, I think this particular book. We got to put in what we liked in there. However, for compliance purposes, there's things that we can't add or say. You can't really get into too much specifics or details, so the thing that I can say is, if you're reading the book and you're like, well, tell me exactly how to do that. The SEC doesn't necessarily allow us to put that in written form. So I would say those would be the constraints that would come not necessarily from the writing of the book or the content, but necessarily the compliance side of things.

Stuart:And it's also the idea of showing the, or sharing the seed of the idea, and getting the people to get someone to the point that they know why they need to do it and not necessarily how exactly to do it, because the how is always case by case and gets into the technicalities but at least moving people from the point of I think I should do this too. I should definitely be doing this. That really is what moves the needle for most people.

Heidi:Well, I think a lot of times people only react when they're scared, when they are comfortable or when they just don't know. They do nothing, and that's most the time the wrong decision. It's when they get extremely uncomfortable and they're in a panic, is when they start to react and make decisions. And so I hope that the book helps people realize that. You know, just start calling, asking questions. It prompts you to write down some questions that you would want to ask and you interview people that you feel comfortable with, and when you finally get to that point where you're like, yes, this is the person I want to work with, then you can get into the in-depth sections of how this is going to work and how it's going to function for you. But doing nothing most of the time is the wrong thing. Or if you have an advisor now and you're just like, well, I don't really know what they do, I get that a lot. People come in here and I'm like, okay, well, tell me what your plan has been. Well, I don't know.

Stuart:That's not a good response. You should know what's going on.

Yeah, rather than hoping that everyone happens to be on the same page and is pulling the same direction. This has been great. What I really love about the opportunity to get to speak with people is you can see their passion coming out and coming through, which obviously comes through in the pages. But it makes a difference having some real conversation, which again I guess is the purpose of the book the book that you lead to a real conversation with a real person who's consumed something, has decided that you're the right person to work with because you resonate and move forward from there. Where can people find out more about their organization? I want to make sure we leave people with some, a place where they can go and actually find out more.

Heidi:So you can go to agapewealthcom, which is a-g-a-p-e wealthcom. You can call us at 228-333-5683. You can visit us on Facebook. You just go to Facebook, backslash agapewealthcom, and that's our Facebook page. And then there's also LinkedIn as well. So we have multiple ways to get in contact with us.

Stuart:All the channels. Well, we make sure that we put links in the show notes so, as people are listening, they can just click on the podcast player or, if they're watching on the website, we'll link directly through and just highly recommend people go and grab a copy, even if they're out of their area or if they think they've got someone that they're working with. As you said, it just gives you the questions in there. That just prompts more ways of thinking about things which people might not have come across before. So, yeah, well worth grabbing a copy.

Heidi:Or empowering them to know what questions to ask.

Stuart: Right, yeah, for sure. Well, thanks for your time. It's been a real pleasure. Everyone listen. We'll put notes in there, we'll put links in the show notes, so definitely follow that for sure, and we'll check back in with you in a few months and see how things are going and look forward to seeing the rest of the series come serve fruition as well.

Heidi:Thanks for having me on, and we really are excited about the book and look forward to the next ones that we're going to write.

Stuart:Fantastic thanks, heidi. Thanks for watching and we'll catch you in the next one.

Heidi:Thanks.