High-Trust Business Podcast

Rob Marr runs a coaching business focused on multinational corporations and recently launched Finding90, a company built around a simple but powerful idea: most organizations are missing 90% of employee development.

He's talking about the gap between training and actual skill development. Companies dump information on people through training sessions, then act like the job's done. But Rob's seen that real development happens through ongoing coaching and mentoring, not one-off workshops.

What makes this conversation interesting is Rob's approach to his book. He published The Lost 90%, got it into the market, then came back and completely refined it based on what he learned from using it with actual prospects. Changed the colors, the fonts, even the texture of the cover. Most authors agonize over getting everything perfect before publishing. Rob shows you why that's backwards.

You'll hear how he's now writing his second book with a much more focused market in mind, and why starting broad then narrowing down beats trying to find the perfect niche from day one.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/139-engaging-coaching-clients-with-rob-marr/

About Rob Marr: Website | LinkedIn

30 Strategies to Build Your Business with a Book — The playbook behind 1,200+ books that start conversations and bring in clients. Yours free. Get a Free Copy

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Paul Ross, Founder & CEO of The Podiatry Center, with clinics in Maryland and Virginia, about his latest book 'My Damn Toe Hurts,' and how it's helping him dominate another niche within their business.

It's a great conversation about the obvious and surprising benefits of having a book that reinforces you as the expert in your chosen business. Paul's passionate caring for his clients and the professionalism his practice brings to people, and his book is the latest way he's added to this expertise.

He also shares some valuable insights on narrowing down your focus when creating a book that builds your business, making it more manageable for you and beneficial for the reader.

It's great to hear his story of people's reactions to the book and how much value it's creating.

SUMMARY

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today I'm joined by Paul Ross. Paul, thanks for making time. Great to have you here.

Paul: Pleasure to be here. It's great to see you again.

Stuart: Yeah, it's great. We just had a strategy call earlier this morning when we went through some things, so it's good to have this as a follow-up. Why don't we start by sharing a little bit more about what you guys do with the audience? Tell us a little bit about their practice and your story.

Paul: Yeah, sure I may put Iodress. I've been in practice a little over 40 years with two offices, one in Maryland and one in Virginia, and we have done the whole gamut of all-foot care that we see We've created a little niche on the things that we'd like to do and, as a result, we've been doing a lot of marketing with regard to those things, which has been able to expand those areas in our office. So myself and my associate have been utilizing multiple areas of marketing to take care of that stuff. So now we're trying to expand our resources at the same time.

Stuart: It's such a great opportunity, once you've been in business for any period of time, to know what it is that you enjoy doing, what you've got some unique capabilities for what customers resonate with, rather than early days kind of taking on all-comers. So has that been a real focus of the last few years, to really doubling down on what you guys do well?

Paul: Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail right on the head.

Certainly, when you start you want to do everything because you know how to do everything and then after a while you find there's some special little areas that are just wildly enjoyable, that you get really good at and you just want to do more of that, knowing that there aren't that many people who take on those tiny little niches with the passion that we do. We've understood all that, we've embraced it, we've created protocols in our office so even if we have another doctor that would come in, they're not starting anew with learning how to treat these pathologies. We just have the protocols nailed so we get to the source immediately. My partner and I just love being able to create those things because we know that if we have proper protocols in place, good diagnosis, then we have a home run with the results, with what we do.

Stuart: Right and just as you said at the end there, it makes a lot too different for the patients because for them, the fact that you could do 50 other things, they don't care about that. They've got the one issue that they're trying to resolve. So to have an end to an experience that really gives them the outcomes that they're looking for, but also the process going through it. It's a smooth, seamless experience, such a better pair for the patient.

Paul: Yeah, maybe we like to create a plan. So when you walk in, you're going to get a full evaluation diagnosis, with all the modalities that we need to get the proper diagnosis. We then have a plan in place. We don't just wing it. We just certain things that work, certain things that don't work. We're not going to waste your time because you're in pain when you come here. So we don't want you to be in pain for very long. We want to get rid of that and heal you and have you go on with your active lifestyle. So, as a result, again, people know when they come in here, they're going to leave here knowing full well what we're trying to do. They're an active role in the process and there are no questions that they have when they leave because, basically, they know and understand what we're trying to do.

Stuart: Right, it's not your first rodeo. You've been through this before and know the types of questions that they would have on their mind, I guess, even if they don't necessarily know or know how to articulate them. So that ability to make people feel at ease, clearly articulate what the next step is again just makes for a better end to an experience. And, as you said, as you bring on new staff, I guess, whether that's doctors or the admin staff that are there as well it's just so much easier to plug them into the process to make sure that it's operating as you want it to operate.

Paul: Yeah, my favorite moment is right when we're finished with the appointment. I'll always say do you have any more questions for me? And then there aren't no more questions because we covered everything. Especially those people who come in with a list that they've written down of all their questions and they go over them again. They go no, no, I got it all. Very important moment that we can have, knowing that we've covered that all for them.

Stuart: Right and putting them at ease and knowing that you're doing a good job for them. It kind of ties across into the book subject. So what I really love about your book is the niche nature of it. We often talk to people. One of the early decision they need to make is picking this single target market, and if you can narrow it down, it's more easy to create the book. It's more easy to create the follow on protocols around the book and how you're going to use it. It's easy for the readers to identify that they want the answer to this problem and then the call to action, the next step, is much more obvious. So do you want to talk a little bit about the niche that you picked and what was it that led to picking this book as the one to do now?

Paul: Sure, I mean we've done a couple of books, but this particular one, as the title says this my damn toes hurt, and what does that mean?

So in our office we've created, and I've done, a lot of experience with utilizing minimally invasive surgical procedures to correct a lot of the deformities that we see in the toes that don't require one to go to the hospital, that don't require extensive reconstructive surgery, that we can do in the office under local anesthesia. And, having taken that knowledge and information that I know that I'm one of the very few that do these procedures, but knowing that not everybody needs surgery, so there was a mindset of let's inform our patients, or people who are prospective patients, or people who may never be patients but are living somewhere else, who have this problem, that they now have a resource to understand in simple terms of what the problem is. Here are the diagnostic steps to figure out what's going on and here are the things that can be done, from the most simple techniques to something that we can then basically surgically fix so that it's a permanent solution.

Stuart: That idea of understanding that there's lots of different options and your customers clients, patients ultimately live within that group. But by delivering them the valuable information, you're also able to deliver it to other people who either will never be customers because they just don't need it, or might not be today, but they might be in a year's time. That really opens up the opportunities to deliver that value and create something that leads people on a journey from my damn toes to on the outside and identifying the problem through to some steps that they can take themselves to. Okay, now the next step is you need to come in. Was it difficult to identify which bits to include in the book and which bits not to include? Or, from the experience, was that pretty straightforward?

Paul: Well, I think, from my knowledge of what we were trying to get across and my experience with treating this particular problem, that I had an idea of what I wanted to say. But obviously, with 90 minute book personnel the fabulous people that you have there together we were able to collaborate and figure out a way to put it all into a concise order that we can then just go through the process of getting it out there. So, putting it down myself I certainly had it out there as an outline, but actually putting the words to paper, putting it into a readable format that's where you know the 90 minute book people came in were immensely helpful making that happen.

Stuart: Appreciate it. It's almost like there's a benefit of not being domain experts, because we can come into it knowing the framework, knowing what we want to create as a scaffold, as a structure, but not get caught up on the details of the actual words or needing to know what comes first A, b or C. We can ask the questions from an outsider point of view, from a kind of an uninformed point of view in a way, but that allows you to answer the questions which are a little bit more straightforward and basic, but that allows you to structure it in a way that is, in a way that moves the conversation forward from this idea of the title through to the call to action. I know from my own perspective, even writing the books that I've written as the kind of insider and owning the company, I still get wrapped around my own head in terms of which words go where, because you've got all of this assumed knowledge or subconscious knowledge that it's sometimes difficult to separate out. So, even going through the process myself, I still use the guys to go through that process and make sure that it adheres to the scaffold, which means that it gets done, as opposed to it being an idea there for years and years but never actually making it onto paper.

Some people have a concern that it's too. They don't want to be too basic and they're worried or get hung up that they want to include more and more or go in at a higher level and more detailed level, as if they're writing for kind of academic peers rather than customers. Was that something that was easy to get past as well? You had a been in business for 40 years. You know the customer conversations that are going on, so was it easier to keep that framework in mind?

Paul: Very much so, because my history with dealing with people every day is as much as there is a small segment of the population that want to know all the minutiae and all the details they really care about is just fix the thing. I'm happy if you want to tell me all the information, but I don't need all the information. So what I realized is that those who want all the information, we share it. We go through detail in the office, we go through all the X-rays and everything that we do, but I realized that I don't need to get that detail out there because there are definitely other places where people can get it, but I wanted them to hear it from me and how I am going to deliver it. So my feeling was if you could just keep it as simple as possible yes, you have, you might have this problem now.

If you don't, you may know somebody who does. If you don't, at some point in your life you and or somebody you know may have this problem. So let's keep it really simple. It's as if saying all right, I have this problem. Gee, this guy is an expert in the area. I'm going to call him and then I want to see what he has to say about my potential, he has to say about my particular problem, and then we get the details when we make the evaluation and the examination. I don't have to put that all in a book. I think at that point I'd be losing more people than I'd be informing.

Stuart: Right. It's such a great point, like in. It's a drive and I learned to drive in the UK. Everyone drive, stick shift across there. It's almost like looking for a driving instructor and everyone providing information on how the clutch works in a car. It's very relevant. It's far too detailed and down the track. There's a time and a place for that. But the job of work of these books is to start a conversation and that conversation naturally goes elsewhere. The job of work isn't to be the academic novel or academic piece on this particular discipline. It's not to be a novel. We're not trying to. People aren't getting a copy of the book to be entertained. They want the answer, the outcome, and it's almost the confidence and certainty that you're bringing by putting your perspective, keeping it straightforward and simple and friendly and accessible for people. It's that good feeling that you're instilling and giving people a clear call to action. That's the thing that moves the conversation forwards, not trying to overwhelm people with numbers or knowledge or medical background.

Paul: Yeah, I mean I think you've had a great analogy with that. You know, sandra should vehicle is that there's a time and a place for that Getting somebody in the door knowing that they have a problem. Sometimes you'll scare somebody away with too much technical information and all they really need to know is I found the place to go. I'm happy that there's some information out there. I understand what Dr Ross's thought process might be. When I get there, based on what I'm reading in the book and I'm happy to go in, I trust that I'll get great care. So that's actually the only one to get across that. Where do I turn? Where I as a patient turn to get the care for a particular problem, but I don't know where to go Right, but I think, more so with the medical field.

Stuart: there may be any other A lot of fields, like lawyers and teachers. There's a stress associated with those businesses that the people feel because they want the outcome of their case or they want their kid to be taught well. But with the medical field having such a visceral, painful problem, as well as something that you need sorting out, it just adds an extra level of emotion to people's decisions as well as the actual resolving the problem in the first place. You said something when you were talking there about when people read it. They get a feel for your perspective and what your approach is.

That's something that doesn't come up that often, but I think it's a very valid point that as people request a copy of the book, they've got some certainty and confidence that you're the person to go to. But when they open the door and step in the office for the first time, you also know that they've read the words and they're coming in with a certain expectation, or coming in with a certain expectation, knowing your take on things. So if there was anything in there that they really disagreed with, they wouldn't walk through the door in the first place. So it must make the. I guess there's an anticipation because we're in early days now, but there's an anticipation that when people do actually open the door and step in, you kind of singing from the same hymn sheet, so you kind of they're on the same page as you are. So that must smooth the journey a little bit as well.

Paul: Well, it does mean, you know the intent isn't to like hide anything, it's just more of an emotion I want them to have. Not only can I trust this guy, can I trust this office. I already have expectations of what's going to happen because I have information from the book so that when they walk in the door they're not surprised. That being is more confirming what they've read in the book and then they know that they're in the right place. And then I know, when someone has comes in, has read the book, that the transition to doing whatever needs to be done, even if it's just minor, conservative care, they know that it's not all about coming in and what we want to do is push surgery. That's not the intent.

The intent is here is a chronic foot problem that we see a lot of all day long. There's so many complications that occur if you ignore it that I'd rather just catch it early, treat it quickly, manage it conservatively if he can, knowing there's some really minor in office procedures that can be done to address the problems. And no matter what is no matter what. The problem is that you're confident that we can take care of it.

Stuart: I often think that it's.

People sometimes know what the right thing to do is, whether it's taking some different physical activity themselves, or whether it's some exercises that they need to do, or whether they know ultimately, that they need some surgery or bigger interaction.

But it's often difficult for them to get to the point of okay, well, I'm actually going to do it now, so that the knowing that it should be done in the doing get two different things. It'll be interesting to see over time as a lot of these things are explained or touched upon in the book. If you've got the opportunity to, when people come in for that meeting and you've got a copy of the book by the side and you can point to it and say, as we said here, remember, this is the thing that we need to do now. It'll be interesting to see whether that's reassured or not. Reassuring what sort of looking for reaffirming, in a way, because now they've read it themselves, they're hearing you say it, now you're pointing back to the thing that they'd already read. I wonder if, psychologically, that will kind of get them to the point quicker of actually taking the action that they need to take, because it's more reinforcing.

Paul: I think the answer to that is yes, but you'll have to realize, sometimes when people come in for any kind of medical something, there's a bit of anxiety and a bit of not hearing everything. That one thing, and that's why, getting back to the book, it's there. They can resource it that. Yeah, this is what we said based on what you read. So it just confirmed that. So you know as much as it's just another mechanism of affirmation that whatever problem that you might have, specifically your, you know, your toe issue, we got it. You know it's very comforting to know that they can go back to this book. See, put the book with a live human being in a face. That you know. Again, I think you hit him down the head. But it's more reaffirming that when they do come in and we do present in an organized fashion what's going on and create the plan, yeah, that confidence is there and it's the transition to doing whatever we need to do is very, very easy.

Stuart: Right. One of the things he said there is putting the face to the words. It's something that we don't have such a personal, not biasism like word. But the credibility and authority pieces of the book puzzle is something that I don't talk about much because I think it's very overtalked about out there. So I probably do a slight disservice by not talking about it enough just as a reaction to what's out there.

But this idea of credibility and authority that comes along with being the author, I know we've done podcasts with people in the past who said not quite that they get stopped in the street or airports, but it certainly happened from time to time.

Where there's I actually get up with the podcast, I'll talk to people and they'll say I've listened to all of the podcasts. I was listening to you talk on such and such a podcast and my immediate reaction is anxiety because I think, oh, what did I say? But so far, 10 years in, I'm pretty consistent on what I say. So I guess that's good. But there is an element of people are looking for that reassurance that they're going to a place that is reputable, that the doctor knows what he's talking about, that there's a good outcome that other people have had, so actually reading the book and then meeting the person that wrote the book, I would imagine there's not a small element that adds to the overall good feeling that people have when they walk through the door and see the person. His face is on the back of the book that they wrote.

Paul: Sure, I mean. I mean it's no different than if I was reading a book about something and I actually got a chance to talk to the author and understand where they're coming from and feel confident that what I was reading wasn't Just secondhand information. That's truly what this person believes and has put a lot of thought into it and has a lot of experience into it. So it puts it out there as being, you know, the authority in this particular entity. So there is that comfort of putting, I think, putting a live human being to the written words, even though there is a photograph on the cover which helps. But you know, once you put that all together, take all the pieces of the puzzle, you can actually touch it, feel it, have some texture to it. It makes it a better outcome in whatever we're doing, because that sense of uncertainty seems to be eliminated when they walk in the door.

Stuart: Right and that, I think, is so much of the puzzle that we're trying to solve.

We know, as business owners have been in business for many years, that we can solve the people if only they get out of their own way and let us do the thing that they need to do Now. Obviously, there's a lot of nuance to that and some more legitimate and less legitimate reasons why people aren't ready to move now. But all of these, when we were talking earlier today on the strategy call that we did, you described as arrows in the quiver. The book is now another arrow in the quiver of ways that you can help people get over that hurdle, to walk through the door and solve their problem. I think that's a great analogy for people to think about, because it's not like this is the be all and end all. Having a book now isn't going to magically solve all of the problems, but it just creates so many more opportunities to allow people to make that decision themselves that this is the right place, this is the right time and this is the right action to take in order to overcome the problem that they've had for a long time.

Paul: No, I agree with that, and you can use that another arrow in the quiver if you'd like. I'll let you use that. I'll credit you for sure. I appreciate that. But they agree, you can't rely on any one thing, any one piece of marketing, to be it.

Say I'm going to spend X number of dollars on this piece of marketing to do X, Y and Z and it doesn't work Well, doesn't mean that doesn't work. Maybe it wasn't the right thing at that moment in time or he didn't do along enough. We didn't do it well, there's so many reasons. So it's an understanding of you know the true marketing scenario of all the mechanisms that are out there to market who you are, what you are, what your services are, what you're trying to do. So you know knowing what we do here and hitting all the areas that we can hit.

This was another mechanism that I just wanted to have that out there, not only to show a sense of understanding what I think patients need to know, but having them to have physically see something that their doctor took the time, energy and effort to put the information out there in a book and not just copying somebody's website or putting information they got from somewhere else. This is my proprietary information that I put out there that makes a difference to them. So this, in conjunction with all the other things that we do, just as I guess, yes, another arrow in the quiver of the many arrows that we have to get the word out.

Stuart: Right, you said an interesting point there about the fact that their doctor has taken the time to put this information together. One of the book blueprint scorecard mindsets that we've got that talks about the kind of eight building blocks to a book. One of them in there is this idea of value-driven content, which is obviously what our framework is built around, and it's this idea of what we don't want is kind of we used to see in the early days not so much now I think we're better at beating out of people, but what we used to see in the early days is people very kind of secretive about their process. They want to give enough information to tease people that there's a solution to the problem, but then the bait and switch at the end of it are you need to jump through this hoop in order for me to give you the rest of the information and this idea.

I think it's as the world has evolved and now there's even more information out there than there was five years ago, certainly 10 years ago, so people are less kind of trying to hold on to it and more understanding that they need to share that information. But back to your point, the idea that it's you that's pulled it together with your framework, with your take on a particular situation, with the love and care that you've got to help people resolve their problem, all packaged together in a book which has its own authority, and there's an element of gift giving. To receiving and giving a book, it really makes a difference above and beyond just the packaging of some words on a piece of paper in its own right. The way that it's bundled together, I think, carries a lot more of the emotion than, like I say, just a blog post or an email would do.

Paul: Well, it's really fascinating in that I have the books displayed in each of the treatment rooms in both of our offices and the few minutes that a patient is waiting before I get into the room, obviously they see it and inevitably it's this proud moment of them of saying see, dr Ross, you wrote that book. That's amazing, I'm so proud. I mean they're proud of that. They're going to a doctor who is now creating to be an authority into a certain niche of what they're coming for. That part is really pretty special. I didn't expect that at all. I looked at it as everybody else, but actually the people who are here, they'll love it. They're very excited to say that my doctor, I'm going to the doctor who wrote a book.

Stuart: Right, there is a again we talked about this briefly before the kind of psychology of why people refer. But there is an element of it's a family and people want to be part of the family that they can be proud of. And you're the fact that you've written something and created it as a book and it's published and it's out there physically in the world. There's a kind of I don't want to say like a reflected light, but there's a certain amount of pride that they can have, that they know and have known for years the person, they knew you before you wrote the book. It kind of builds that sense of family and community and, silly as it seems and there's certainly ways that could be used for bad, but using it for good, it just brings people into the fold and allows them to be part of the biggest success in healing people.

Paul: Yeah, I mean it's and you know it's. You know I joke about it with them. Yeah, I wrote the book. Yeah, I'm going to be going on tour in a week. I'm having a lot of office hours, you know, and they look at me like really, no, not really, but you know, be kind of fun. That's not going to ever happen. But the warmth with which it's being received by the patients are in the office. This is outstanding. So I can only imagine what might be transpiring with anybody else who might see it and has that same sensation. Knowing that, again, I'm going to the doctor who wrote the book on the problem that I'm having a problem with, right.

Stuart: So something that amplifies so I cut you off a little bit there. I was just going to say it is definitely something that amplifies the overall success. So, like you were saying, it's not the only arrow in the quiver of the marketing tools you've got. It's not the only empathy building tool or relationship building tool that you've got in the overall practice. This is a reflection of everything else you do the care that the reception staff have for people, the neat and tidy nature of their practices, the fact that you've got clean equipment, that the office is nice and bright, that you follow up with people to check in to make sure that they're OK after the surgery or after the treatment. It's not a fully rounded, holistic approach to taking care of people.

Paul: Well, it's no different than I think of myself as a patient when I've gone into a doctor's office and, from the moment I have to make an appointment to the moment I leave, what is the entire experience about? What's the phone call Like? What's their website like? How's the person who's answering the phone? How's the person that's greeting me? How's the person that's putting me into the room? How does the room look? What does the office look like? How's the furniture, their pictures or their old magazines? What's the doctor like? Is he driven?

I mean, all of this is the experience Knowing that you can choose to go to any other doctor on the planet. Why do you choose me? And I want you to know that you chose me for the right reason, so that when you leave here you can say that was an amazing experience. I'm going to tell all my friends about that guy and about that office and the way we treat everybody, because that's really where it starts. Not treating a disease or an entity, you're treating a human being and treat them the way you want to be treated, and the foot problem becomes secondary.

Stuart: Right yeah, Treating people like human beings. I think that's something that everyone can do well to remember. It's not non-averse, are certainly not the people that we deal with in the book. Business. Non-averse are in a transactional business. All of us are in the relationship business. It's just their end product is different for all of us, but it's all relationships.

Paul: Oh yeah, I mean. I always say you want to see what an amazing relationship is like is walk into any four seasons, go to Disney World and see how they treat everybody. And that's what I want to be treated like. And I want my patients to have that same experience when they're here, knowing that they choose to come here and not forced to come here. They choose to come, so I want to be sure that they know that they chose properly.

Stuart: Right, I just want to say thanks for your time in coming on the sharing. These podcasts always go so quick. I think I've ended each of the last eight or nine podcasts by saying to someone hey, we'll have to definitely check back in in six months and see how it's going. So thanks again for your time. Before we go, just want to make sure that people have got access to you and know where the practice is if they want to come visit, Obviously if they're in their area or if they just want to check out what you're doing. So what's a good place for people to go to find out more?

Paul: Sure, you can do one of two things. You can certainly give us a call at 301-656-6055. Or you can check us out on our website at your yor podiatrycentercom.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, I'll make sure we've got a link in the show notes for all of these, so, as people are listening on the podcast player or looking on the website, there'll be links straight across. Well, just thanks again for your time. It's really inspiring to listen to people who have actually pulling the trigger and doing this and using it in a way like you are. And, as I say, if you're up for it, we'll check back in six or seven months and see how it's going.

Paul: Oh, that's my pleasure spending the time with you today and we'd love to have that chat again in six months.

Stuart: Fantastic. Okay, everyone. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.

Paul Ross runs The Podiatry Center with locations in Maryland and Virginia. After 40 years treating feet, he's narrowed his focus to the stuff he loves doing most. His latest book, "My Damn Toe Hurts," targets one specific problem that lets him showcase his minimally invasive surgical techniques.

This isn't about treating every foot problem under the sun. Paul's created protocols for the niche areas where his practice excels, meaning patients get predictable results and leave with zero questions.

The book works because it's stupidly specific. Instead of "foot care," it's "toe pain." Instead of general advice, it walks people through simple fixes all the way to permanent surgical solutions. Paul's one of the few doctors doing these particular procedures, and the book establishes that expertise before people even walk in his door.

You'll hear why narrowing your focus makes everything easier, how to create protocols that work without you, and what happens when your book makes patients proud to refer you.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/138-dominating-your-niche-with-paul-ross/

About Paul Ross: Website | LinkedIn

Is Your Book Ready to Collect Leads? — Most books sit on a shelf. This scorecard shows you if yours is set up to start conversations and bring in clients. Take the Scorecard

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Jim Richardson, who runs MKR Building Solutions, a concierge service for commercial building owners and managers in the Boston area.

Jim shared his story of developing his business from giving away or outsourcing services for free, to having an in-house team and a network of subcontractors he controls to not only retain that revenue, but also ensure the same quality of work is done in all jobs he manages.

We talked about the importance of developing a marketing process that works while he's busy. His new book is part of a package to send to potential customers that gives them an understanding of what MKR Building Solutions does and how it can help them before having a one-on-one discussion. Something that starts the conversation and predisposes people to want to work with you.

This is a great episode with someone who has a clear plan to dominate thier niche, and a book that supports this goal.

Most commercial building service companies give away their profit margins by outsourcing everything. Jim Richardson took the opposite approach.

He runs MKR Building Solutions, a concierge service for commercial building owners and managers in Boston. Instead of farming out work for free, he built an in-house team and controls his network of subcontractors. That means he keeps the revenue and controls quality on every job.

Jim's using his book as part of a prospecting package. It explains what MKR does and how they help before any sales conversation happens. The book does the heavy lifting while he's busy running jobs.

You'll hear exactly how he's building a marketing process that works whether he's available or not, and why dominating your niche starts with keeping control of your revenue streams.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/137-transforming-commercial-spaces-with-jim-richardson/

About Jim Richardson: Website | LinkedIn

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Today on the Book More Show, I caught up with Dean Jackson at the studio to talk about the impact of AI on book writing and explore how AI, rather than 'doing it for you,' can help amplify your ideas and opinions while still providing the psychological benefits of having a book.

AI can be a fantastic tool to quickly split-test different parts of your broader idea to find the one that resonates with your audience, but we talk about why establishing a unique perspective is more important than ever in a world where generic AI-generated content is on the rise.

It can help create an experience that meets your reader's attention requirements, and we discuss how 'Actual Intelligence' paired with artificial intelligence can be the rocket fuel that gets your idea out there fast.

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart:Everyone welcome to the Book More Show in the world headquarters down here in Winshaven and special guest Mr Jackson Well.

Dean:I'm good the specialist of guests. Specialist of guests, I like it.

Stuart:We were at the house last night watching some of the abundance 360s and a lot of the conversations was around AI.

Dean:AI. What now?

Stuart:Yeah, who Chat what? Yeah Chat GPT, okay, not TP, okay. So the level at which that conversation was happening was obviously way in advance of what we're talking about, but still it's on everyone's mind Chat, gcp. No need to survey any content, the robots are going to do it all for us. So I've got some opinions on it. Tell me, I'm sure you have.

Dean:Yeah.

Stuart:I've been doing recently with people who have written books. A lot of the podcasts with guests have written books, but the thing that is different is that it's their opinion. So a lot of the AI options I think around the baseline just moves up. It's no longer as difficult to think of ideas because a robot can give you great ideas. It's no longer difficult to think about the first 50 to 60% of something because it's all, it's the facts, it's the information that's out there. But I think the real opportunity for people is it almost goes back to a grand conversation. It's the opportunity to establish their opinion, why their take on it is different and the robots that you can help support that and even create some of the downstream material or add to some of the downstream material.

I think the real difference, the real opportunity that people have got, is to establish their perspective. Our perspective on writing books very specific, very different from other people. I don't think anyone would mistake our view compared with other peoples. The AI can help support some of that message, but still establishing that fact. The second point is just the fact that other people aren't going to think that way. They're going to be looking for the low hanging fruit, the easy option of just pressing a button and churning some stuff.

Dean:I think everybody thinks this magical thing that this chat GPT is going to just write this book for me and everything is magical. But it actually. If you look at what, if we look at the landscape of what we do at 90 minute books. In the effort of creating a book, it's created in a way to be the most effortless way to create a book, it's actually less work to create a book using our AI process actual intelligence, real people doing the establishing what the outline is.

Stuart:Do you want to outline that? It's got to be lining the sand for that as a phrase.

Dean:Well, it's really. I think that's the difference, though, right Is that, if you look at the job of work for the author, the entrepreneur, the person who let's just back it up all the way to, why would we even be doing a book in the first place? And the reason that we're doing a book is to turn invisible prospects into visible prospects and to educate and motivate people so that they think the thoughts that we need them to think, understand the things that we need them to understand, see examples of how the things that you're talking about actually work, so they can draw the conclusion that working with Stuart would be a good idea. That's the job of work that we're hiring the book to do in the first place right If we sum it all up in a nutshell Now.

What that comes down to then is if you're the author, you're the entrepreneur, you've got all the knowledge, you've got everything that you want to say and it's just a matter of extracting it in the least intrusive way, least burden of time on you to extract that from your brain, get it into a digital format.

And the fastest bandwidth way to get your thoughts into a digital form, which is what we need, is through your mouth into a recording device. That's what it is. As soon as we record something that you've turned your thoughts into words into a recording, now it's digitized. We've got the audio, we can get that transcribed, we can turn that into a transcript, we can edit it all without you having to do anything. It's such a you know, if you lay it side by side, it's really the easiest way. It's easier than computerized AI, because you still have to then Prompt all of the stuff and you're still counting on. I think, ultimately, the big decision you have to make is as the book I'm trying to write. Am I trying to write a book report book, or am I trying to write a field report book?

Right and the difference is that a book, report, book, if all you're trying to do and we've used AI to do Books like that we just created a Medicare guide. That just it's all facts. It's all things that are already known and available on the internet. We're compiling it, putting it in a way that is Format. It doesn't we're not counting on any entrepreneur to give their you know, objective.

Information it's factual stuff, right. So if you're, there's many things that that would fit for. If it's you know how to's on a certain thing that's already known, tutorial type of things, you could get Chat GPT to write those kind of books. But I call them definitely book reports because it's just researching and Compiling and formatting information that's already known and available, no guarantees of how factually accurate it is. We've seen, right, that's you got to. Still got a double check.

Yeah, everything and that requires a GPT tickler to prompt the right things that you want. It's not just hey, write me a book on this. It's, that's not as easy as that. But if you want to write a field report which is sharing your subjective experience based opinion, council advice, guidance based on experience in real-world situation, with supporting stories that only you have had, that's not what a AI is going to be able to do. You need capital, A I actual intelligence to do that, and that's where the 90-minute book process comes in.

Stuart:And that's the difference going forward as well, as more and more people think, looking for that silver bullet of the easy option, the number of book, report, books is going to increase because it's an easy option.

Dean:I think I don't remember the numbers, but the number of chat GPT written books that are credited. These are ones that are credited in the Amazon store as a author or co-author. Chat GPT have hockey sticked.

Stuart:Right.

Dean:Well, I guess that's. It's only logical that it's hockey stick. It's only been three or four months that it's even been an option, but that number is going up, up. There's going to be a dearth Is a dearth, a big number of them.

Stuart:Is that? Yeah, it's supposed to be glut Glut. I don't know. I don't know.

Dean:That's it so any grammarians on the listening to this right now. I've always wondered what is a dearth compared to a glut? I'm going to assume I think that a dearth means it could be so many of them, an abundance of them.

Stuart:One of those words now we're saying it more and more. One moment please.

Dean:Live. Hey Siri, what is a dearth and distinguished American painter? No, that's not what I'm looking for.

Stuart:And it's the problem with AI you don't necessarily always get what you think you get.

Dean:Oh no, sorry about that. A dearth is a scarcity or a lack of something. There is a dearth of evidence. So forget what I said. There's not going to be a dearth of chat GPT books there's going to be an abundance of them, and abundance.

Stuart:So this idea that now becomes the baseline.

There's definitely a place for those books in an oval funnel, but it's not necessarily the first thing in the most valuable thing that you could do, the thing to establish you as opposed to your competition, particularly when you're in a field that isn't.

There's no shortage of financial advisers, no shortage of doctors, so to be able to differentiate yourself from the crowd, this idea of having the opinions come through and the thing that you're sharing, just as you said, is your experience and your stories, which are unique, even separate from the fact that you are, to a certain degree, pre-programming and pre-conditioning people to think in that way, so that the first time that they walk through the door, they're already predisposed to be aligned with your way of thinking. It definitely seems to be a silver bullet problem of thinking this is just going to be a push button, but the contrast to that, as you alluded to, is the ease of the actual intelligence option. The easiest way is just to talk about the things that you know, using a model that structures it in a way that achieves the job of work.

Dean:It's a bit. We do the prompt thing. You're the intelligence we draw it out from you.

Stuart:Right.

Dean:And everybody, it's easy to talk, yeah.

Stuart:So I think the place where it does have a benefit is potentially downstream. So we talk about often I have a book now what it's not a kind of build it and they will come type problem, although I did hear a podcast the other day where they were adamant that it was build it and he will come, they will come.

Dean:Okay.

Stuart:So the opportunity is now that the book's created. You've got an outcome at the end of it, a call to action that you want people to do, and leading up to that is a table of contents, that kind of roadmap, stepping stones them from the beginning to the end. So the content within the book helps you elaborate your ideas and motivate and educate people to take that. The opportunity with ChatGTP is to take that to. Did I say GTP again? Yeah, you did.

Dean:Every time.

Stuart:Hopefully I'm trying to change them, not have them change me. So the opportunity is to have ChatGTP elaborate on some of those ideas. You've now got an asset in the book that shares your opinions on, say, five subjects, five elements within the book. Those elements are going to resonate with people in many different ways. To have the content to address each of those options, of all the different ways that people think about a particular thing, ChatGTP is a great way to very quickly brainstorm and elaborate on that. So starting off with the seed idea of the chapter title and then give me more variations will reveal ways of thinking about it. You didn't necessarily think about it because you come into it with your way of thinking. So I think it definitely gives there's an amplification opportunity, but amplifying your ideas amplifying someone else's ideas.

This idea of trying to be more broad once the thing is created, but that thing is yours and something that you own that can be used in multiple ways. I think that's really the hockey stick opportunity of sharing that thought wider and broader.

Dean:Find that their ChatGTP is a really great brainstorming partner. You think about that as a great way of thinking about it, Like if you're thinking about what would be good content ideas to write articles or email follow-up things, about what would be some questions about this particular topic that I could write and that's. It's really good in figuring those things out and prompting like that and that way you can use it as a guidance to get to prompt your thoughts about you answering the questions. You know.

Stuart:Yeah, yeah, that's a great point as well, this idea of there's. So bringing it back to. We often use the analogy of what conversation would you have if someone just walks through the door and asks you about your business? The real world, this idea of conversational conversion to the real world example, and then repeat that in there or reflect that in the email, the idea that the AI is a thousand people coming in and asking those questions. It just is such a faster way of moving through all of the talking points to be as broad as possible, not just narrow. The other thing that we've been using it recently for is with a couple of people who have got more. We've worked with a couple of clients recently who have got good Facebook skills in terms of.

Facebook ads. So they've got platforms and teams that can vary quickly and cost effectively do a lot of split testing, so very small costs but, split, test different things.

So this idea of chat GPT coming up with lots of variations around the words of a particular subject and then these particular teams are very capable at testing them. It's an interesting way of getting that real world feedback quicker. So should I call it this or this or should I position it in this way or this? They've had quite a lot of success in that testing it in the real world. So it's your ideas, your focus, your expertise, your opinions, but maybe just tailoring the language, something to resonate a little bit with the audience. We've got the idea of the minimum viable book. On the minimum effective book, I've got a preference for the minimum effective book, kind of pre-selling this before it actually gets written and finished. So hopefully no one's going to beat us to it. But those two books are exactly the same books, but whether one subject resonates more than the other, having chat GCP come up with lots of variations on those things.

Dean:Well, I think that's really. You know this, this, lots of you know the rapid onslaught of more book options now that there's going to be more and more to read. I think it's what's not increasing. Is our attention right, our ability to sit and consume those books. I've been doing a series of podcasts about book, books that I've read, or how the lessons I've learned over, you know, 34 years of doing this here, and one of the things that I realized is that I had so much more time to read in the 90s, you know, in the early, the first half of doing that and until you know, up until the iPhone, where that's just such easy dopamine.

Stuart:Right, that short hits yes.

Dean:And it's such you know there's a burden of time, like you look at anybody's screen time on their phone and you look and see like how many hours a day sometimes mine gets into double digits. I mean, you know of screen time and it's just like some of it is useful, some of it is just going into, you know, a tick tock. You know it's just so easy to get in and get one minute. It's never not satisfying right, there's always a win.

Stuart:And always the potential of something funnier and better. The next one. That's what I mean, and it's so easy to just contaminate.

Dean:Everything's going that way now. Youtube shorts, facebook Reels, instagram, tick tock they all look the same. You can't tell which stream you're in. They're all trying to. You know, because that's the winning formula has been just infinite scroll of stuff that the algorithm is pushing to you, right, so that versus the you know, manual nature of reading a book. That's why I think these short books that take advantage of the shorter window and it's a service to people to be able to condense and organize your thoughts into a.

you know from concentrate, get just the good stuff in the book. You know fluff like everybody's bought books that you buy this 250 page book that could have easily been explained in 50 pages and would have been more useful and better. And that's what I look at is let's just start with that.

Stuart:Yesterday, as we're recording today. On Thursday yesterday I recorded a podcast with Brandon Poe, who I think is sort of probably be the show that goes live before this one. But here's the whole point. He's on his fourth book now, so the first one was a traditional one, three with us. So he was talking about handing them out an event that they were at, a big accounting event, and had several phone calls from people where they were saying I read it on the flight on the way home because it's 50 pages, one concept and starts the conversation.

Dean:Yeah.

Stuart:Yesterday we were watching the 360, the abundance of 360 feed and Tony Robbins was on talking about the life force book, which must have passed me bad. I didn't even know it was one. That was exactly what.

Dean:It's a huge book.

Stuart:Yeah, that's my first thing was I really want to read that. There's lots of interesting seems like there's lots of interesting stuff there. My second thought was on Amazon. It's 728 pages.

Dean:Yeah.

Stuart:I'm not going to read that.

Dean:Right, exactly, I'm going to do the best well in wealth.

Stuart:I've got the drive back up to Pennsylvania next week so I might audiobook it because.

Dean:I'm guessing that it will be a 24 hour audiobook, but even that I mean this these hours that things are shifting, you know, and our attention spans are needed to get the payoff. And certainly you know, as long as it's an entry into a who, not how type of relationship that your clients are craving from you. Yeah, the positioning as being a who for someone not just showing people how that's that was valuable. I mean, it used to be valuable to learn and show people how to do stuff, because that was the only way that they would really Right. That was their option. Learn, that's what they were looking for. Looking for the how do I do that?

Stuart:Yeah, I often use the same with people that the book's not the product, the conversation's the product, and comparing it with traditional publishing, where the book is the product.

Dean:Yeah.

Stuart:Publishers are interested in book sales and volumes and the money that comes back from it. Yeah, I got an email the other day from I think it was Book Baby, one of the published self-requisition services out there, and they were. It was something that I'd never thought about before, but they were talking about chargebacks for authors. So there, I think the position of their email was that they don't do chargeback. So if you in a traditional world, if you get your book into a bookstore but the bookstore eventually returns it, whatever royalty that you were paid which they gave an example, and I mean I know how small the royalties are, but it was really reminded of a $20 book, you ended up with $1.75.

But then of that $1.75 for the return, they reclaimed the royalty payment but also charged you the return shipping for the book. So you can be in a situation in a traditional world where the book is the product of actually being underwater. I mean, it's such a crazy scenario compared with, like you say, the thought that the book is an introduction to a conversation and the conversation is leading to you being who to solve their problem, which is really what people want.

Dean:Yeah.

Stuart:Yeah, yeah, that difference, the opportunity that I think people need to know now about the robot side of things is it's not a civil bullet, it's people are going to just press a button and try and get it to it for them, but that's going to be a low value piece. There's going to be a lot of them out there, so to separate you from the competition. It's really establishing your ideas, your perspectives, and that's why people is building that rapport, why people want to work with you.

Dean:And we're saying all of this with only knowledge of GPT-3. That's why I want to really say that? Because I have not had a chance yet to interact with GPT-4, which may be if we're to believe everything that we're hearing, it may be the equivalent of having a graduate student working for you to just set them on a task and write the whole thing. It may get easier, but I think it's still about the it's still more book reports.

Stuart:That's what I mean, and that's the thing.

Dean:There's no other way. This is the best way and that's what people really want. The differentiator of a field report I look at all of the books that I've been talking about on my series of the most impactful books in my life are not they're not book reports. They're field reports from people who actually created insight and can articulate it and share it in a valuable way that I get from. I think about what Robert Cialdini.

I think about six weapons of influence and persuasion that those aren't technical, just book reports. Those are based on thinking, observing, setting up experiments, executing the experiment, analyzing the data and coming to his explanation of it in a way that you can see that when you get somebody to take some initial action, the odds of them taking the next step are exponential. And that's kind of where that was one of the thoughts that led to using a book as the first step in something. If I've got courses about how to take great photographs of people and I am offering a book to people called how to Take Great Photographs of People, that if I'm offering the people who download my book a weekend experience of an immersive course on taking great photographs of people, odds are they're going to be very interested in that, because they raised their hand to tell me the congruency of it.

Stuart:it's such a clear path. We think about mapping out that journey from the conversation starter to the first easy way of getting started, that kind of mafia offer in their profit activators. But it's all of the psychological benefit of a book, all of the credibility that it carries and all of the authority to be able to bottle that up into something that also meets their attention requirement and gives a clear next step, an obvious logical next step. That's where the real difference comes in yeah, yeah, super exciting.

Fantastic. Well, we'll check back in as we bow down to our mobile overlords and see how the world looks.

Dean:then we can deploy actual intelligence for people still serving up actual intelligence since 2013. Since 2013.

Stuart:Fantastic. Well, thanks, as always. Everyone thanks for watching. I'll link to Dean's series on the 10 most influential books in the show notes, so make sure you check out that. Yes, and we'll catch you in the next one, awesome.

Everyone's talking about ChatGPT writing books for them. The reality? AI can handle the facts and research, but it can't share your specific experience or perspective.

Dean Jackson joins me to break down why "actual intelligence" beats artificial intelligence when you're writing to build your business. We're seeing a flood of AI-written books on Amazon, but they're all book reports. compilations of existing information without any real-world insight.

Your opportunity isn't to let AI write your book. It's to use AI as support while you establish your unique take on your topic. The robots can help with research and downstream content, but they can't tell your stories or share your field experience.

We talk about the difference between book report books (facts anyone can find) and field report books (your actual experience). One creates commodity content. The other positions you as the expert people want to work with.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/136-actual-intelligence-since-2013/

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Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with James Khoury, a mortgage expert with 18 years of experience, as we dove into simplifying the home buying process for first-time buyers and his book, 'Finally Getting Prequalified'.

We explored how a book can start the sales conversation by using some of the biggest questions clients have and James's example of the five key areas everyone needs to consider when looking for a mortgage: credit, budget, education, funding, and debt. James shared valuable insights on navigating these areas, emphasizing the importance of education and understanding your options.

We also discussed the long-term benefits of building strong, lasting relationships with clients and the power of sharing personal stories through books. Listen in as we delve into the building blocks of onboarding clients, including how James's book, educational classes, and social media presence all tie together to create a cohesive approach to helping potential clients. This is an episode you won't want to miss!

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart:

James: Hey, good Thank you for having me, Stuart. I appreciate it.

Stuart: Fantastic. We're both coming off the back of Coles, I think. So I tripped over my words already, so hopefully everyone listening will give us a little bit of leeway if we have little bits of a stumbling and stuttering and coughing as we go through. Great to finally catch up. I've been excited by this one because your book which I'll obviously get into the details, but your book is really the transcendental example of starting the conversation with some of the biggest questions that people have got in mind and then using it as a jumping off point. So I want to start with a bit of a background on you and the business and where you located, and then we can jump into the book.

James: Yeah, absolutely, thank you. Thank you again for having me. I'm excited to be here and share this with everybody. Ultimately, what we're looking for is to help consumers know, especially ones that have difficulties when you're looking to purchase a home, because I think for most people that's the ultimate goal is to become a homeowner, have something of your own, your kingdom, your castle, whatever you want to call it. We all work hard and want a place to go home to.

That's RO, and I found over the years of the last 18 years of being in finance and doing it that these five keys that we talk about in the book are the biggest hurdles for people. So I kind of wanted to essentially put something together and simplify it, because it's really not as difficult as it may think, as long as you have the right guidance along the way. Right, we've all. You can pull up and read anything you want on the internet and find whatever you want to, however you want it to be.

If you're looking for something negative, you certainly can. For positive, you certainly can, but this is just a nuts and bolts of the reality, of what it takes, what we need to do and how we get there, and my background has been doing this, as I mentioned, 18 years. It's a long time my entire adult life and I felt like it was time to put this out there and help people achieve that dream. If there was any thoughts that somebody couldn't do it, I wanted to let them know that you can, and I'm a prime example of myself.

Stuart: And let's get there. I'll throw up for people watching on the video. So the book itself is called Finally Getting Pre-Qualified. So obviously, a mortgage pre-qualification guidance, this idea that the five straightforward keys and the idea of simplifying it and giving people bite-sized chunks to sink their teeth into. I think a lot of people get themselves wrapped up when they're thinking about creating a book, because they overcomplicate it and think it either has to be unique or has to be an idea that's not been thought of before, or they have to include absolutely everything, when the reality is. This is the starting point of a conversation. So did you have a similar challenge when you were thinking about it in terms of what to include or what not to include, or was it pretty straightforward? 18 years of experience, these are absolutely your five starting places.

James: Yeah, I felt like these were the five most important things, because what have been some of the hurdles along the way are part of these five keys. So it's navigating through them, okay. Well, what does it mean? When you hear this terminology, you know credit. What are they looking for? For example, credit, and we talk I talk about that in there and I want people to understand that that's just one of the areas. So there's five key areas that everyone has to go through.

It doesn't matter, you know, as long as you're looking for a mortgage, obviously if you're paying cash or something, that you're not going through these. But the rest of us, 90% of the people that don't that have to get financing. You have these perceptions that you may have heard over the years that I need to have X amounts put down, I have to have this, and a lot of those are not true, especially in today's financing, and I think education is the biggest part of it and advising the consumers that you do have options. You don't have to have 20% because, let's face it, the market is so expensive now, housing everywhere, that majority of people, especially young, you know, the millennials that are looking to purchase even some Gen Zs now are getting into that as well. Don't have that capital, you know. So how can you avoid that and still become a homeowner?

Stuart: That's a great point, because some of the fundamental beliefs that people have might have been based on information that was true at the time, particularly if you get this information from a parent, but it's not necessarily true today. So, kind of rethinking what the reality is and helping people, kind of reposition what the real things are, going to make a difference versus what they might think. It's going to be that introduction to the conversation that ultimately leads to the next step, which is always going to be more detailed, and the devil's always in the detail. But the conversations that you have, these five keys that you've got, does that come in the majority of the conversations? This is really the starting point for most, no matter where they're coming from. This is really at least one of these five areas.

James: It really is, because they all need to be discussed, right, Like we have credit, budget, education and funding and debt, right, and all of those are touched upon and different facets of the conversations that you may have and think about, like credit, for example, well, where do I have to be? I think one of the myths is you have to have 800 credit, 750 credit, which is really good, and if you do, that's fantastic. I commend you Well during the people don't. But just because the scores aren't that high doesn't mean that you don't have options that are actually good options. So that's one area.

Budget is important, because I also tell everyone, just because you can afford something on paper and you qualify for it doesn't mean it's in your budget, right, Because ultimately, there's so many other facets of life that they don't account for, especially if you're thinking about it First time full buyer. Maybe you live with your parents, you've never paid rent, or maybe you've paid rent, but it includes everything, and now you have utilities. You have all these other expenses on top of it. So it is so imperative that people understand that going into it just because something looks good on paper and it works right Doesn't mean it's in your best interest.

Stuart: That idea of affordability, not just jumping through the hoops. I mean, that's a difficult conversation to have with someone because, as you say, the prices just that the baseline price on the property are so much more expensive than when you and I were that much younger. So the cost of just the first element is that much more. When you start adding in all of the things that you forget about and it really is two or three things that aren't accounted for can lead to an extra 100, 200, 300 dollars a month, which can be the difference between really living on the edge and having at least a little bit of a cushion to account for rainy days or unexpected incidents. With the people that you're dealing with. Thinking about who your customers are, is it mainly first time buyers and that younger age group, or is it movers or refinancers, people who have been around the block more than once and understand it? What's their level of education?

James: Really good question. On that I would say me personally. I deal with the majority of first time home buyers. I'm affiliated with a lot of nonprofits so we do a lot of education, educational classes, so majority are first time home buyers looking to purchase. I actually even with the refines over the last few years I actually still did significantly more purchases than refinances, which is not typical of what the market was. But I've always been a purchase heavy person and I geared towards that.

Obviously, repeat clients and investors but the majority are, I would say, it's their first home and I think a lot of times they're referred to me is because anyone that's been in the business that has known me a long time. No, hold their hand, I'll walk them through it, I'm patient, I'll respond. Things like that make them feel comfortable because I look at myself. I've purchased many properties over the years and it's a lot and it's overwhelming to me and I do this every day. So can you imagine a 27 year old buying their first home like what that's going to feel like? So I put myself in that shoes and I will hold their hand to the finish line and I don't mind enjoying it because at the end of the day. I want them to be comfortable, confident and know that they made the right decision.

Stuart: Right that approach, that hand holding approach, and understanding that it is complicated for people it's even highly educated people or people who don't get flustered and overwhelmed Just the volume of work that's required to get through the home-run process. It's not straightforward and the system isn't designed to be as it wasn't designed from a kind of UX perspective of making it as user-friendly to on-board people as possible. It's just a legacy system that's got a lot of challenge and individual moving parts to it. When thinking about the book and what you were including, was that a thought as well? You were very much thinking about? So were you thinking about the people who are reading it and how to streamline it and characterizing with the rest of your process? 100%?

James: I wanted it to be streamlined so that first time home buyers specific or anyone in general, but specifically her first time home buyers that may have had those questions along the way or may have had the apprehensions of, hey, maybe I can't do this or maybe I'm not ready to know, maybe they're not and maybe this helps them realize that they're close but they should wait because of their budget, or maybe that you know what you actually really are ready and if you want to and it's the time that makes sense for you, then you can do it. It's ultimately just giving them that knowledge. It's kind of like my hand-holding right, hand-holding them through the process. This is the exact same way. I'm giving them scenarios that have been happening in real life, that we've gone through some myself. I'm giving them real life examples of how to navigate through some of those things, because the ultimate goal is I want them to be homeowners, but I want them to sustainability right. I don't want them calling me in six months saying I can't afford this. What am I going to do?

No one wants that. You know that is the most heartbreaking thing. You've worked so hard to get there and now you're struggling. But if we can help you get that, what you need to, so that you know you're ready if something unexpected happens or something to that nature. You know confidently that you'll be able to stay and be there and move forward and then bounce back. But if you don't go through that and have that outlined, then you just no one wants to buy a house. And then you're heating. What happens if your heating goes in? Six months? It's possible Things happen Like you know that as a whole water there's, the most randomest things will happen and you're like yeah, and it's not inexpensive.

Stuart: Homeownership always reminds me of weddings or kids. You just can start adding zero on the end of it. There's a podcast I listen to. I remember the host talking about travel and he said it wasn't until I was in my 40s that I realized to make travel stress-free you need an additional $1,000, that you just budget and pretend that it's gone already. So then when the car rental place adds on a fee, or when there's extra parking, or when there's an extra train trip or something you need to throw in if that's all accounted for, it just relieves so much stress. If you're going in just bang on your budget and you've got no additional contingency, then every additional thing someone asking for an ice cream you're looking at the price of it before you think whether you want an ice cream or not. It's so stressful.

James: True, no one wants to live like that. It's tough, but if you put yourself in that position, then that ice cream could make or break you for the weekend. I hate to see that. It's a tough situation, but if you're ready we'll get through it.

Stuart: And it must be even more personal when you're dealing with a lot of referrals and repeat business and recommendations from organisations that you know work with. It's not like this is a very transactional business, where whole leads are coming in and then you just farm into more fells. Well, you've got a real relationship with these people. So knowing that you're putting them in a position that best serves their outcome not just allows them to do the transaction that they might want to do first, both on the kind of on the low side and the high side, but it's really thinking about the person that you're working with as a person and their kind of life going forwards beyond the point that you've finished working with them. That referral based business has much more of a real connection than just a transaction based business.

James: Yeah, it's way more important to me. I don't look at it as it's a transaction. You're purchasing a home. I'm helping you. I look at it as we're lifelong friends and I'm near from you. So I've had clients that I want to say now, like 14 years, where now one of them, like their kids, are buying which is hilarious to me but they will not do anything without calling and say what do you think of this? Or they get something in the mail on some random thing and they'll call me. I love that because to me it's not a transaction.

If I were doing this for the transaction, I wouldn't have done the book. I'm doing it because I want those relationships in the long lasting and I want you to think about. If you want to buy, call me. At the end of the day, it's not about money on my edge. I've been very successful, fortunately, doing this a long time. I care about the individual and if someone comes to me with something that is a better deal than we're able to offer, I'm very transparent and say this makes sense because of this. It's not about ego, it's about those relationships and those mean more to me than anything. I treat them like I would want my family treated and that's how you have to look at it, not just in a house or this and anything you do in life. I think if you put that out there like that, you're going to get better results and better long-term sustainable relationships.

Stuart: Yeah, it really has been in it for the long term. And thinking about the people on the other side of the conversation, I think that's what's beneficial. That's why I like talking to people about books. Because of all of the possible sales, lead generation type work, referral type work that you could do websites, line page emails a book really does carry something more than itself.

I think it's a carryover from when we were kids and even before that there's a value given to books which now, in a self-publishing world, I mean we're trying to leverage that a little bit because it's easy for us to create them. We don't have to go to a publisher and get approval to do it and it doesn't have to be laid out on a printing dress with a monk type setting everything. So there's definitely advantages that we can leverage, but the idea of sharing your small story, what's personally important to you, why these things are important, wrapped up in the pages of books that you can give to someone, that just sets the scene, builds the foundation of the relationship in a much more meaningful way than just a landing page or an email or the digital options that we've got now. When you were thinking about creating the book in the first place. Was it a long journey before thinking about it to eventually get started, or was it pretty quick? You saw us on a.

James: I want to say that it was about a five and a half year journey when.

I thought about it till completion and about a year and a half when it started, to finish, because life gets in the way, right, like anything else, you get busy. I wanted five years ago I had conversations with several people in my life that this would be really good, like I think it would be beneficial, and life goes on. And then the beginning of 2022, I said this is the year it's going to happen and that's when it started. There was a gap in between and finished at the beginning of about this year, 2023, but yeah, it was worth it, though At the end, I wanted to provide value. I mentioned the first time home buyers and doing a lot of those educational courses. I just wanted to be able to bring them with me and say, here you go, Like, if this are read, this is subsequent to this class, I think you'll get value to it and that's what it was about to me adding value in people's lives that are looking to get pre-qualified and finally buy their dream home. You know it was worth it.

Stuart: It's funny, isn't it? I mentioned a couple of times that we have conversations all the time with people who jump on the list and have an initial call with us years and years ago, and then time goes, and then, obviously, covid added the kind of time warp of two years anyway, and it equally seems to take a bit.

James: Probably would have been a good time to write a dance to it. Probably would have been a good time.

Stuart: I look back and think, oh man, how much of a missed opportunity was that in terms of things slowed down a little bit. I remember. So I'm 47, I remember my first job out of college was a financial services type job but we didn't have emails. I can remember getting an email in that job, but two or three years into that job. So that pace of life so much slower. But I'm sure there were other things that distracted us back then as well. But then, more recently I can't really comment to other people that scorecard book, the book looping scorecard that I wrote. I was looking back and I've got a mind map and I took a picture of six years ago of the initial outline for that and although all of the ideas in there, like you, are things that we talk about day in, day out, to actually get it finished or even started took long enough, probably care to admit. So it happens to all of us. A couple of shoes problem of so busy dealing with other people's books that don't get around to your own.

James: Yeah, I imagined.

Stuart: One of the things that get back on subject, one of the things that Spark to thought, just as you were talking, is the idea of the much class and home buyers class, the educational pieces that you do a lot of already.

So this was quite a strong thing funnel used from in the nicest sense of the word, but that opportunity to talk to potential clients. So the book itself, as you describe it, is a great way of supporting and almost reinforcing your message after the class. It also ties nicely in as a free class option. So if people using it as a referral tool, people you've worked with in the past, if you hear someone talking about struggling with them or with your house in questions, give them a copy of the book and then the book leads to the class as well. So talk a little bit about this idea, maybe not quite so formal, but this idea of how all of these things tie together. So there's conversations going on, there's a book out there that talks about things. There's a class that you have, there's probably other assets that you've got. How do they kind of tie together?

James: I'm guessing, thematically, they all have the same topic, obviously but yeah, they all really do, right, because everything starts with a conversation. Everybody's a little bit different, right? So some people are more methodical and want to kind of read through and look, so the book is perfect. Some people are more visual and want that face to face, so maybe one of those classes is a really good opportunity. Some people just like content.

So, if social media and other aspects that you put out, content that talks about programs or give little nuggets right, everybody's attention spans a little bit different, so some people are going to want to sit there and go through this and analyze it, and I think this is right for them. Other people want to just hear you talk all about it, right, like, I'm very visual and thought, so I need to like see it, hear it and I also need to read it. So for me it's kind of like all of them. But this gives everybody, of all different avenues, their exact way to be able to relate to it and absorb it and use that to get the nod. Whether it's the book or those classes or, like I said, social media as well, I think they but ultimately they all do work hand in hand collectively, because if you go to one and you get some nuggets from here and here. All together you create that big picture.

Stuart: That's such a great way of thinking about it, because the kind of fundamental idea that you've got so many things, certain other things that form the building blocks of how you'd onboard people, but now you've got the opportunity to pick and choose which one are the matches best for them, because you can tell in the conversation or you can't tell in the conversation because that doesn't come up but by presenting the opportunity to share these different messages. And it's always reinforcing because each of the class and social media posts and the emails in the book, each of them are really delivering the same message but in different ways. So they're reinforcing. And it might be I forget it was a Harvard study or something like that where it takes kind of seven contact points for people to become a client what the true math is these days for different industries. But having the different elements that you can refer people to, that really helps build those elements in and just gives more opportunity that someone's gonna see something from you at the point that they're ready to take that next step.

James: That makes it less transaction as well. To that relationship. Give them all the different areas that meets their specific.

Stuart: Yeah, I think we see it and I see my own experience of working with other companies as well, not as a provider but as a customer. There's many times where I would fully be on board with starting today. But if something just comes up, so it doesn't quite happen. Or today's maybe not the day, but a year from now is definitely the day. So if someone stays in touch with me, it's always in the back of my head. My computer screams at me sometimes because I've got too many tabs open, because I've got terrible habit of leaving tabs that I want to come back to at some point in the future.

But that's funny. It builds up to an insane amount. But this idea of having things that you can stay in touch with, people, understanding that you never really know when they're going to convert, just because they raised their hand today doesn't necessarily mean that today's the day for them. But to be able to use the stick with the book, use the book as an example to create some emails around and then refer back to as kind of like a tentpole piece of content Do you find that similar in the industry? People will enter your world or will know about you quite a long period of time before they actually turn into customers.

James: Absolutely, and part of it is not. Everyone's buying a house every day. So you're using those knowledge, you're taking that knowledge and information, you're jotting it into your memory, writing it down, however you know, keep tabs on that right and then, when it comes time, you go back to it. So just because you have consultations or you're doing those seminars doesn't mean that you're going to those people, are going to be in your lives at all. Let's just say they are. They could be three years down the road.

I've had clients in the past that have seen social media posts on stuff that we've posted and reached out and said, hey, this was great, I saved this from three years back and now you know they followed us along the way and we've taught them right. So they learned what this means, what that means and different avenues of the business. And then they come to us. So goes back to that relationship, right it's. You never know when someone sees something right, when they're going to eventually need it and it's in any business, not just ours. But you see things, you want it, like it, but it's not time for it. But when it comes back to it, you go and then find it, and that's essentially what this was kind of like the last piece of that. This book was the last piece of putting all of that together, like there's all these other areas that you can find us Now here's the last one.

Stuart: And it's such a amendment free your pressure, free way of people joining the world on you, knowing that they're more interested now than they were three years ago Someone opting into something it's a very non-threatening way of starting that conversation or re-engaging people and in a way that ties in completely with everything else that you've got done, I think for the referral type businesses people like you who've got a strong footprint and a strong community, always having it there to be able to allow other people to refer it as well.

So sending out that checking email saying, hey, it's been a year just checking in. If you've got any questions, let me know. Or sending out an email that talks about an education piece about rate changes and people's options, and then having that super signature of. By the way, if you know anyone that's got any other questions, grab a free copy of the book here. It's a great resource. Just allow us for such a non-threatening option for people to understand more about you guys and what you do. It's a great way of being a community first or a value first option for starting that conversation.

James: Yeah, absolutely, and it's not salesy, it's not a sales pitch, it's very direct. These are typical standard conversations. The keys are of what goes on with every person we speak with, and we thought this was just the perfect way here to go. And exactly, you know someone that needs it. Here's a copy of the book. Just read through it. If there's any subsequent questions that I can help elaborate, articulate better, that's specifically for you. I'd love to help out and that's all it is. It's just bridging that entire gap and kind of putting it all together. And this was the final piece and I'm excited about it.

Stuart: It's great to finally get it and the cool thing actually you've got a book leads back to the course as well. So those people who are more material. So it really is that it closes the loop, like I said, the final piece of the puzzle that closes loop. It's going to be really interesting to check back in on progress. Like you say, it's only just recently finished. We really had a chance to get it out there in the world too much, but it'd be really interesting to check back in kind of six, eight months and see how it's going. So if you're up for that, it'll be really good to do another show a little bit further down the track.

James: Yeah, I'd absolutely love to. It would be fantastic.

Stuart: Any pointers? So obviously we send out the show mainly goes to people who are on our list. So these are people who have expressed an interest in writing a book or obviously, our past clients. Any pointers? For people who are thinking about it but they haven't pulled the trigger yet.

James: And I say this do it, it's the best that you're gonna do. You will not regret it. It may take time and if you say you're gonna do it, like me five and a half years ago, it's okay. It takes you five and a half years, seven and a half years. Get it done, it's gonna feel good and you're gonna feel like you're adding that value. So, whatever you're trying to do whether it's for your business, never it may be to your life, to people. You're adding value and that's ultimately what this meant to me was I'm adding one piece of value and if it can help any consumer learn or believe that this is possible, that's worth it to me.

Stuart: Fantastic. As we're wrapping up, let's make sure that people can find out more about what you guys do. So where's a good place for people to go to learn more about James and the family?

James: Yeah, absolutely Simple. You can connect with us, our website, our team website. We closeyourloanscom. Very simple, Closeyourloanscom. You can also check us out on Facebook, Instagram and all of that at the Corey team. So it's the last thing, Corey team, you'll find us. We have a lot of content. We'll do a lot of spoofs, funny things and along the way, and that value was fantastic.

Stuart: Well, I'm sure we've got links to all of these in the show notes, so, as you're listening, check out the show notes either in the podcast player or over on the website. James, just wanna say thanks again. It's been really good to catch up. I'm glad that both of our voices held out a little bit.

We rescheduled them last week to make sure. So, on the road to recovery, I'm really excited. Just before we started recording, we said that we'll do a strategy call, just kind of brainstorm some ideas, because the work that I've done with other people who've written similar books with similar purposes in different industries, they've really had some great results and use them in certain ways. So I'm excited to share those with you and, like I said, well, jump back on another podcast in six months time on the track and we can update people on how the progress has gone.

James: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, stuart. I appreciate it. This was fantastic and it's a blessing to be here with you.

Stuart: No problem at all. Well, thank you everyone. Thanks for watching. Make sure you check out the show notes and we'll catch you in the next one.

James Khoury has spent 18 years in mortgage lending, and he's tired of watching people give up on homeownership because of outdated information. His book 'Finally Getting Prequalified' tackles the five real hurdles: credit, budget, education, funding, and debt.

You'll hear why that 20% down payment 'requirement' isn't actually required, and how perfect credit scores matter way less than most people think. James walks through each of his five key areas and explains how they show up in almost every conversation he has with potential homebuyers.

This isn't about overwhelming people with every possible mortgage option. James uses his book to start the conversation with the biggest questions people actually have, then guides them through what's realistic for their specific situation. You'll walk away understanding how to position your expertise as the bridge between what people think they know and what actually matters today.

Show notes: https://mrstuartbell.com/podcasts/htb/135-getting-prequalified-with-james-khoury/

About James Khoury: Website | LinkedIn

Your Book Is Closer Than You Think — You already say everything that needs to be in your book. 90-Minute Books turns it into a done-for-you lead generation tool. Get the Free Book

Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Tim & Pat Ash, Divorce Attorneys and Financial Advisors from Farmington Hills, Michigan, about their latest book Debt B Gone.

I love speaking with people who want to write a book that helps people, and it's even more engaging when it's based on a personal experience.

Tim & Pat created their framework to help people see debt differently. Based on their journey of financial freedom, it's a process that's helped many clients change their lives, and they saw the opportunity to start many more conversations using a book to introduce the approach.

It's the perfect example of the 'Name it and claim it' type of book we often talk about, and a great conversation demonstrating how a personal connection can build rapport with potential clients, leading to a lifetime relationship.

The Debt B Gone website is launching in the coming weeks, so Keep an eye on DebtBGone.org to watch this platform develop.

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bookmore show. It's Sue Bell here, and today joined by Tim and Pat Ash Guys, great to see you. Thanks for making time to be here. Yeah, well, thank you.

Tim: Thank you for inviting us.

Stuart: No problem. So do you guys work together, based out of Michigan financial and lawyers and financial advice to the same clients?

Pat: Yeah, not at the same time by trade. We're Tim as a lawyer. Yes.

Stuart: Okay, so that's an interesting dynamic. I think most of the other podcasts we've done have just been with individual authors rather than people who have written together. Don't stop by giving people a bit more of a background on how you guys got started, how the practice came together and the two elements of it.

Tim: First of all, my name is Tim Ash and I have been a lawyer for a little over 30 years now and I'm just pretty much in the area of divorce and family law.

So where this debt begone book came about is really out of our own relationship, patty and I. We were going through life. She was a marketing executive for AT&T yellow page portion and her career kind of came to an end and our reality started crashing, in that we had really saved enough money and we haven't planned properly for retirement because we were too busy living paycheck to paycheck, and so that's where I think our life took a turn and we started to explore why it is that we were living paycheck to paycheck and we ran into various people along the way and various needs and so forth, but one of the things was the Dave Ramsey plan taught us to budget and to work together as a couple, and then, through Stan and some other people on the insurance side, taught us about a whole life policy that can literally be used to help us reduce our debts and reduce our savings, and that's where, in about 2018, we came up with the idea of debt begone, our book that's just being published now.

Pat: Let me get it. Tim had mentioned Dave Ramsey. What we just you know what we thought very hard about is the Dave Ramsey program is great, you get out of debt, but what do you have at the end? You have nothing.

Stuart: So your debt starts again.

Pat: So what we had, that's when we went to explore other options and the options of using an insurance chassis to have people save their money and pay out their debts. But at the end, because of an insurance chassis, there's money there for them to use. So that's kind of so. We invested it in our own life, we took it about our own life and started doing that, and now we just want to teach others Because you've had that success, you've experienced it, you've lived through it yourself.

Stuart: So it gives such a real experience to want to be able to share with other people. And then, of course, the professional skills to be able to actually help them, not just suggest to a friend that it would be a good thing to do, but there's tools and resources. You've got to facilitate it for people. While I'm thinking, let me get a cover of the book just up on screen here for anyone who's watching along. There we go, the cover. I love the cover because it's such a it's. I want to say it's uplifting for people just listening. It has a balloon. It's a higher balloon on the cover itself, but it's. It's really uplifting.

This idea of whole life and I'm not sure whether so my background is in the IT side of financial services in the UK my past career years ago so it's an area that I've always been interested in. But having worked for the last 10 years with people in the US, the idea of using whole life as a facility, as a well building tool, is something that I'm not familiar with. So I'm not sure whether it's just the products aren't the same coming from the UK, or whether it's a technique that's just not available, but that as an idea, it definitely seems to be less familiar to people rather than more familiar to people. So do you find that in talking to people, this is really the so in the seed of an idea? It's kind of explaining what it?

is not just something that people know about and you're just offering it to people on it.

Pat: What it is, how it can benefit your life, how it can benefit your portfolio and again, that be gone the products and services that we use to do this. There's a few insurance companies that offer a product that is completely designed for a high rate of return, so that you can then take that money, borrow it from yourself and pay your debts.

Tim: Right. Here's why I'm excited to be here. His 90 minute book is so fantastic, because this is such a new idea. We are now able to tell it by way of a story. Through Patty and I, through our own struggles, we take a little bit of a different turn, but we basically we were in a position in our marriage that we were ready to draw up divorce papers. We did go eventually to bankruptcy to get a fresh start. We've been through a lot of things to get where we're at, but realizing that this whole life policy and this idea of getting rid of debt is more transformative, you have to change your mind. You have to really think differently. So the idea of a story in a book that 90 minute books could help us to draw out is just. It's a fantastic way to plant the seed of a new idea, and I do think this is a new idea.

Stuart: Right, we also refer to the best day books. They're kind of setting the scene for something that people might not know about. It's the opportunity to, in a slightly longer format than just a quick conversation or a page on a website, allows you to get into the details and really starts to build rapport.

Pat: The concept of this. That's really what we call bank on yourself. The concept of banking on yourself has been around a long time, so we took that concept and embellished it with a story. Obviously, like Tim said, we have experienced it, but we embellished it, put characters in it so that you, the reader, can see the happy results of the subject, not just off sitting there and telling them it'll work for them. They can read it, they can see it, they can reflect on it, rather than just a person sitting there trying to represent something.

Stuart: Right. It's such an interesting insight, isn't it? Because, as you say, you could tell someone the same story being sat in front of them. But to a certain degree, particularly if you don't have a rapport yet with them, if they're new to your world, it does feel like people have got their defenses up a little bit. They're expecting to be sold to back, put them on the back foot, whereas consuming something in their own environment.

Even the idea of kind of like the subliminal authority of a book. That's not necessarily what we're trying to go primarily, but there's definitely a subliminal element to it, subconscious elements. It's a third party vetted body that made sure that these words are on a page and therefore I think they're received in a better way. The idea of writing a book in the first place isn't necessarily something that everyone jumps to. Was that a thought that you'd had for a while, or had you seen other people do something similar?

Tim: We had through our travels of learning about finances through the insurance industry read your family bank and Larry McLean was a big influence on us, on you know this is a great product. Why aren't more people doing it? And so, as we implemented that in our own life and got rid of our own, you know, credit card debt, and now we're managing our debt in a way that we never would have thought of. And so it's to me the biggest factor of going back and looking at why we got into financial trouble. It's not because of how much money we made. We made a lot of money, but we continued to focus on the. Now, you know we didn't look at oh, we should save X amount of dollars every month because it'd be good to have savings. Savings, just it wasn't valued to us.

And now we look at savings as a big value, a big portion of our Dollar amount. We commit two thousand dollars every month to our savings plan through our family bank or bank on myself, whatever you want to call it. But this idea that you hold this money in then and then you can borrow from it is very powerful. But you still have to get rid of that mentality of she was if I want something. Can I afford it? If that's not the right question to ask, it's really do you need it? Do you really want it? The consequences of what it might provide in your family If you were to come become unemployed or your paycheck should go down or inflation should go up those are the kind of concerns that you should be asking. People don't, and that's why they end up living as the way we did Paycheck to paycheck.

Stuart: Yeah, it's just go ahead. I'm sorry. Oh, so I was just gonna say quickly it is an interesting insight, isn't it? Because it's not necessarily that. It's a the mechanism for making it work. It isn't necessarily Just a tool or a silver box, a silver bullet product. It's a change in mindsets. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Pat: That's where it has to start if you can't put a budget together and make savings your priority I mean, your government gets so much You're tithing then should be next and then your savings should be that you should be paying yourself.

Right then we deal with the lifestyle and what we can do. And if you look at someone's lifestyle, they say, well, where am I going to get the $2,000? We're going to get the $500. To do that, I'm strapped. We involve a debt coach. So once they sign on to the concept of wanting to learn, we assign them a debt coach and that debt coach helps them look at where they're spending money, where they're wasting money. Maybe it's Overdraft on checks, maybe it's they're paying double the amount to a visa card because they want to get ahead. Whatever it is, we take a look at that. We find the funds within their own they're on economy and then we apply those funds to the savings that. That becomes their savings.

Tim: It is sorry to go for it.

I'm just gonna say, as patty's talking about this, the book within it is debt elimination university, and debt elimination university is a five week course which Focuses on first saving your money, knowing what you're, knowing your money, knowing where it goes every month, and then applying that money to Basically taking your savings and applying it to your bank and then watching your bank as it eliminates your debts.

And then, after your debts are over, you can then see where you borrow from yourself Instead of an emergency going to visa. Those three classes are kind of the what I'd call the substantive part of the class, of the teaching. But then the last two are about your Transforming your mind, thinking differently, understanding that you don't have to have it now, or you don't have to keep up with the Joneses, or you need to forgive yourself or some people. You just need to love yourself. Stop, you know, with these comfort type things that you're doing, just Change the perspective of how you look at your life. And then the last class is about hope and vision and gratitude and living your life in a different, transformed way. So it's a part substantive and then it's part transformative through your mind, and I think both of those elements are really important because it does create the full picture.

Stuart: I mean a bandaid over clearing some debts, like you say. It's not necessarily going to be a long-term solution If you get to the end and then you just start the cycle again. Those elements there within the book. It was in relatively straightforward as you were thinking about creating it, what to include and what not to include, or was the sum back and forth on kind of how much is enough to to Share the message and they're not turned into a kind of the next great American novel which would still be on the shelf and not helping anyone, I think the more of the struggle was Because we've taken a website, created classes.

Tim: Patty and I filmed ourselves through these classes that actually you know now I threw the book but now you can go on the website and now it was like, are we going to charge for the classes? Are we going to? You know, this is something that is being done. We're like no, we decided a hard decision was we want to give this away. We want people to just be able to put in this code, you know, a promo code free and be able to go in and look at these classes and get the forms and get the ideology and that way they can figure out themselves. Because it's a process.

You may be willing to do one aspect of it but not another, and if you're not doing all the transformative things, then you're really not ready to, let's say, go out and get a whole life policy, because if you're not going to save money, if you don't save money like every month regularly, if that's not part of your plan yet, then you're not ready. You need to get used to that plan. So the website, the book and different things that we're doing are all about trying to give people an idea of whether they really want to move into this type of life or not. Because I could tell you you want to. You want to move into the life. It's a beautiful thing for us not to worry about debt anymore. I mean, it's just freeing.

Pat: Well, and that's the debt coach too is a very specific and very important part of this process, because that debt coach becomes your coach and you tell them what your issues are and that you can't. You know, and that's that debt coach. So, like we talked about, look at their current economy and figure out how they can actually put themselves into a savings position.

Stuart: That's it Interesting way of thinking about it, because you have not only the opportunity to share the knowledge with people through the book and the free course to get them to that first stage, highlighting the importance of the debt coach the fact that it's a difficult thing to do yourself because you've maybe got 20 or 30 years of habit and experience gets you to this place. The likelihood of just reading something or completing something and then switching into a different mindset is quite, quite a challenge. So I can imagine that debt coach and the elements outside of or in between the pages the things aren't necessarily immediately talked about or, if you were trying to do yourself, not immediately written on a list. I imagine those are some of the things that can be the game changer that gets people to thinking about the whole thing in a different way. Do you get much feedback from people in that way to say that the coaching element was really the thing that set them on the right path?

Pat: I would say yes, that is definitely where the rubber meets the road.

Tim: Yes, I think, as we sat down and we met with people along the way, the hardest part is they're not really ready to consistently put savings forward and put it first place, and so that's kind of why our first class is savings is the key. If you can't save money consistently, then you can't get out of paycheck to paycheck living. You're going to continue to increase your debt and your money will be worth less in your economy. It's just a reality. You want to face that reality. We're willing to face it with you. We've done it. We want to help them to come and to be free, and to do that. It isn't. We're working and so this is not a second job for us. This is a desire to want everybody to become debt-free, to have savings, to realize how important savings are and to live financially in a way that it doesn't control their genes anymore. That's the big thing. That was the big thing for us.

Pat: Well, the way we put our program together is at 65, we want everything paid off our office building and our home. Most people don't retire because they still have a mortgage and their retirement won't cover what they need with that house. So they end up selling their house or moving in with their children or getting something smaller that they think they can afford. But those are all reactive things that happen in your life. If you plan and be proactive, those things will never be part of the conversation, because you've now set yourself up to pay your debt, and then debt includes your mortgage.

Stuart: There's those elements of future Stuart and future Tim and future Paddy, being stuck because of past, our own past actions or not really thinking enough ahead. It's kind of overestimating the short term and underestimating the long term. For our parents, absolutely no for Veil and everywhere. Our daughter's 18, she's just working at her first job and we were just submitting some taxes for the first time this year. I was saying to check out with the employer because they might do a pension matching scheme. So you're not going to miss the two or 3% today.

But starting at 18, fortunately I was in a position to have a corporate job relatively early on. So for 10 years or so I was getting some pension funding going in there. But for the next 10 years it wasn't what I was thinking about. I was kind of going out on my own and not really I can't even justify by saying didn't have the funds, didn't have the funds but didn't have the foresight to continue that. So now in later years thinking okay, well, there was a good 10 years and now probably a 10 year gap and then thinking about catching up. So the people that you're helping I'm guessing it's more people who are in mid to later life because they're coming to it from having your experience, a good life, living life, not necessarily thinking about the future, building up some debts. So is that mainly the clients, so people who are in the second half rather than the first half, or do you get younger people as well?

Pat: Well, we work with both and let me give you an example of the younger people.

We've got children coming out of debt with college debts, I'm sorry, coming out of college with a lot of debt. I worked with one gentleman who went to a local private college, came out with $150,000 in student loans. Most of them are written on his parents, because a student can only take so much out. So we set up a plan, devised a plan to pay his debt off first and then he'll pay his parents debt off as he goes along. So as he accumulates enough, he takes one of those loans, he pays it and then what he was paying on that loan now he puts it back into his bank to accumulate again and then he can pay the next one off. So that's kind of how it works. So, and again, it's a long process that takes more than this to explain what you do with your money, but ultimately he should be out of debt in eight years where some of these people, some of these we have a doctor that's got a $300,000 student loan. I mean, they're carrying a house payment with them and they don't have to be.

Stuart: Yeah, it's such an interesting option that seems to be so universally applicable. There's more people that this can help than less, but it's something that so few people are aware of. I'm the last person to be a conspiracy theorist, but it definitely makes you question why, what it is about, the way that society is set up, and I don't know whether I don't think there is a room for the people rubbing their hands together and thinking how can we keep this a secret from people? I definitely think there is. An amount of people get overwhelmed and just bury their head in the sand, either intentionally or not, and just live day to day and don't want to think about it, because either it's too overwhelming or confusing.

Pat: They're living their life, they're raising their kids, they're buying bigger houses, they're buying cars. So if we can catch people early to your point, if we could catch them in their 20s and 30s and they're already probably already have a mortgage, they probably already have two car apartments, they probably have student loans, they probably go right on that, relied on that visa to do whatever it had to be done because they're strapped with children. If we can catch them early and change their mindset early, that would be great.

Stuart: That would be great.

Pat: But to the flip side of it is yes, we get, especially with the family law practice, we get people that are going okay, I have to take half my debt Now, I just had to sell my house, whatever they. Now, what do I do? And that's where we say okay, now there's a way you can eliminate these debts, there's a way that you can start your own retirement or your own path so that you because even now you split your retirement you know, dad got half, mom got half. So we get people off stages of life and for all reasons.

Stuart: So that second group is there ever a situation where it's I don't want to say too late, but is there? Well, I guess yeah, is there ever a situation where it is too late? Does this approach require a certain amount of time and just the practicalities of it? I mean, it's, it's at least a period of time, or is there always an option? Or is sometimes that option just well, we can make it less bad?

Tim: Well, if you're, I was speaking to a lady who was in her later sixties and she called about because she was receiving some alimony and her alimony was going to be up in another less than a year, and so she was living on this alimony and I said, well, you know what else? You know what other retirement savings or things do you have? And she didn't have anything. She was living in a house, so the house had value, but she then had an equity loan on the house because she ran into some areas of debt. And then she had a credit card with some, I remember, but it's somewhere under 10 grand. And now it's like, okay, she's getting this $2,000 or so in alimony. What's she going to do? I don't know that. I have an answer for that. I mean, she hasn't saved. She's going to get social security, which is going to replace her alimony, maybe. But people who don't have retirement savings and who haven't made a plan, I don't think you can make a plan for them when they get to 60, 70, 80 years old.

Pat: People start to plan when they run out of money, as opposed to you plan being not run out of money. That's the problem, right.

Stuart: It's the critic dealing with the critical issues, not with the planning ahead. So if there's no runway in terms of time and funds, this isn't a great money out of nowhere For the people who are worried that they've missed the boat and left it a little bit too long. I'm guessing that there's a pretty broad middle ground, from late 30s to 50s maybe, where there is an opportunity to make a difference.

Pat: There are definitely people that we can say I'm sorry, I can't help you because in Tim's situation person didn't work. There was no life that they created for themselves. They lived off of what they were getting. It's gone.

Tim: I think the answer there is that area where this type of thing can make a difference. It's the passion that drives Patty and I to say, hey, we were in this situation. Luckily, we did save some 401k money, we did do some things right, but we didn't end up in bankruptcy. So we understand how we did things wrong as well. So if there's any way we could pass that on to other people that are coming up in the 20s, 30s or certainly by 40s, because we did that 50. We started at really 50 is when Patty was separated from her company and we really realized we'd made a lot of mistakes and eventually started really focusing on what can we do to think differently. It wasn't easy, but now I'm so grateful that we did and now we just want to share that.

Stuart: Yeah kind of our passion and that group in the middle. So there's the young people at this end who've got all the time in the world to make some choices and start small. Even if they start small, just thinking ahead, you've got time on your hands. There's people at the under end of the spectrum that have the ship sailed a little bit. Unfortunately, the time is maybe there's just not enough runway, but this pretty broad middle from 30s to 50s. I imagine that there's a lot of people in that area that you can help in a lot of different situations. Where here's the idea that's been communicated in the book. But if that idea resonates at all, now you guys are bringing in the expertise to say, ok, well, this person, this would be their correct plan and this person would be another correct plan. Exactly, is that what you see? Quite a lot that kind of.

Pat: That's where the debt coach comes in, because they can see all the elements and their job is to do the best program for what the client needs, not what they need with the client needs.

Tim: It is also a reason why we took our age back to in our mid 40s in the book, because that's where we could have really made some really good different changes in our life if we would have taken our own advice right now.

Pat: You can answer your point some of the characteristics that we're looking for. Obviously we want them employed. They should have exponentially. There should be debt and mortgages always something that's good to demonstrate how quickly you can get out of debt and pay your mortgage.

Stuart: Right, which again isn't what people are thinking. They think in terms of 30 years and it just always being a payment there. So presenting the options with something that's easy for people to understand, but in a very different framework, must make quite a difference.

Pat: One of the beautiful things is that when they do borrow from themselves, that money is tax free. Right Borrowing tax free. They can pay up their debts tax free.

Stuart: Right.

Pat: So and then obviously, they can either choose to pay themselves back or they can choose not to, but depending on where they're at in life.

Stuart: And that must give quite an amplifying effect. So not only do you have the access to the money in the first place a very different interest rate from borrowing on credit cards but the debt free element of it must kind of amplify the fact that sorry tax free money, that tax money that you're saving, can then be reinvested and make the part even bigger. There's really some synergies to it. Yeah, you guys are up in Michigan, right? Yes, and most of the clients you deal with locally, or are you expanding further field?

Tim: Mostly it's local at this point.

Pat: Yeah. But the book will go to anybody, so we'll help anybody Right. We just have to have a debt coach that's licensed in that state, which is not a problem. Right, yes we can help anybody in any state, but yet to start this process and to get it rolling, we're focusing on Michigan and that's what we say, that to people all the time.

Stuart: This idea of kind of 50 mile famous. If you're going to expend any effort and energy into sharing the message, it's not that you're going to turn away out of state people and say sorry, we can't, the doors are closed. But the effort to get the ball rolling makes so much sense to do it locally, even in terms of just the narrative and the stories and the experience and the frame of references talking to people who are within that local area. Just the conversations that you have with people are going to be more connected because you're physically there as well.

Pat: Well, if you affect one, you can affect many, you know, and that's so we're going to look to, you know, our church as an example. How can we introduce us to our congregation? Those are the types of face to faces that we anticipate, but we certainly online campaign that will start once this book is published is, you know, obviously another way for us to try to reach people that we can't touch physically.

Stuart: Yeah, so that rolls into kind of the cult action on the book and the back cover and what ideally you'd want people to do next after receiving it, either from an online campaign or a friend, referring them for the best value for them and the useful way that you can help. Someone gets a copy of the book. What's the best first step for them to take next?

Tim: And next step is to contact a debt coach, to engage a debt coach, and then go through the pages of the book with, you know, the debt elimination program, each class doing the homework. I would also engage at the same time with the computer, because the classes help not just on the pages. Maybe read the book first and say, well, I'm interested or I'm not. Then maybe take the next step and go to the computer classes and maybe understand a little bit more. You know, at some point, though, that debt Coach is going to have to be pivotal. If you really want to make real change in your life, you're going to have to have somebody that comes alongside of you, help you financially, transfer form your mind.

Stuart: And I guess that's both from like the knowledge and the encouragement, but also the accountability. It's difficult to break your own habits without.

Pat: Absolutely that debt coach. You know the intention is to have that debt coach stay with you until all your debts are paid off.

Stuart: Right.

Pat: So to help you focus on what you should pay off, first things of that nature. So they'll stay with you until you're out of debt.

Stuart: Which builds a relationship and more of a rapport and get to know your person.

Pat: Yeah, it's hard, and at that point that debt coach can figure out what else that client might need. Right, the first and foremost, you cannot retire if you're carrying a bunch of debt. Right, you just can't Poor planning. So you know you got to start somewhere and get rid of your debt, and then we'll start focusing on the other stuff.

Tim: Right and see I go different. I go no, you have to learn how to save money first. If you don't have any money to save, then I don't know how you can even begin to pay your debts, because it's only going to come back to you.

Pat: I kind of said that, with savings being a given, Wow, savings is never a given.

Tim: It's in our country. It's like people save less than 5% of their income and that's even generous to say that. Right, there's a lot of them. They don't save, they just have a negative position. If they need money, the card breaks down, they go to Visa or at consolidation or something along those lines. It's no that you've got to be able to set aside. How much money do you want to save every month and then make a 10-year commitment to that? You know, I understand things happen and maybe, but you're totally willing to make a 30-year commitment on your house. What the heck's the problem with making a 10-year commitment on your savings? Right, it's a mindset. And people, they just don't have that money. They don't pay $600 for the car for seven years, $600, but tell them they have to save $600 for 10 years and they totally freak out.

Stuart: Yeah, like I said, that mindset change. You were talking about the videos that you recorded. Do you both record videos as part of the program?

Pat: Yes, yes, yeah.

Stuart: I think that's an interesting dynamic that it brings even in the approach that you were just talking about a couple of seconds ago, a very slightly different approach to really the same thing. But the fact that there are the two of you, you're going to resonate with people in different ways or people are going to pick up on the different points. I think that's an advantage over just an individual right in the book. It's just their perspective.

Pat: Yeah, you read people and you figure out. You know, tim, I think this person is better with you, or Patty, I think you should talk to them. You just read their body language or dynamics, what they're made of, and then you figure out how you want to approach them. But definitely, I mean, what do we say? The average American can't even afford a $400 emergency.

Tim: Right, but it's scary, isn't it? Yes, the thing is, we realized, in talking to people, though, people are different stages and they'll sit here and they'll tell you oh yeah, I'm ready to do this, but then, when it comes right down to it, they're not. Or maybe they do it for a year and then they, you know, and that doesn't do any of us any good. I mean, this has got to be a win-win. You've got to really want to transform. If you don't keep going through the classes until you get it, or until you really desire that you want to, you might read the book and go well, that was an interesting story, and I think I really I like what Tim and Patty are doing, but it's not for me. Okay, that's fine. Or you could say well, I'm interested in this, I'll take the next step and I'll sign up for the classes. Or maybe you're so enthusiastic about it, you do the book and you sign up for the classes and you get the dead coach. You get the whole thing and you try to figure out what else can.

I know, and that's the person that we're kind of looking for you want to really help someone who really wants to help themselves.

Stuart: And, as you say, you don't know what stage people are at and often I guess they don't know what stage they're at. So at least by reaching people at the top of the funnel, at the beginning of their thought process even if it takes them a year or two to get to the point that they're ready to work with you at least you've started that conversation and given some that can value and the opportunity to stay in touch until they are ready to go and hopefully at that point they're fully engaged and ready to jump on and make those choices to have a different outcome and I think it's exactly about planning the seed.

Tim: That's what you do you plant the seed, you wait. We fully expect that this is a new concept or it's an old concept that's bringing in a new way, whatever way you look at it. But we're saying, okay, we're not here, we're not living on this, we're not making a. You know, we're not looking at making money on this, we're looking to form lives. That's what we want to do. So if it takes two or three years to get where people catch on, but it's like fire, though, once something catches on right it takes off Right, it goes and goes fast.

Stuart: That's what we're excited looking at, that we're seeing a lot of transformed lives.

Tim: We're seeing American people who are, and we're seeing the debt. You know that. What's the calculation of debt? Now, we want to see that go down overall. We want to see people saving money not 5%, but maybe 15%, you know, let's see that number. That'd be a great number to see. So that's what is exciting.

Pat: And when you put it into perspective and we use pie charts to show people what their reality is. And the reality is that what over what would we say? 41% is generally lifestyle, a little over 30s debt.

Stuart: I mean so?

Pat: that slice of savings is so small it hardly shows up. So you know, when they see how they're living and they see what they should be doing, then they start to. But like Jim said, you can take a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.

Tim: They have to decide.

Pat: They have to decide. This is a personal decision.

Tim: And that's what the book and our website, that's what you know. We don't want to force anybody to do anything, but we want to give everybody a good idea of what they could be in life, how free, how financially free and otherwise they could be free to make better decisions in their lives. Free to, you know, enjoy things that they never thought of before. You know that kind of thing.

Stuart: And the psychological freedom like you started off by saying to free up from that baggage, that overhead, of having that constant worry all the time is life changing.

Pat: Oh yeah, it is so joyful to be able to take a breath and know that I don't have the debt that I had, and it's so joyful to know, at 65, I'm going to have a choice Do I want to retire or not?

Stuart: Because my house is paid for. So if I you know if I can.

Pat: There's so many more options open to you if you don't have debt.

Stuart: Yeah, yeah.

Pat: That opens up the options of everybody to be.

Stuart: So, again, super appreciate the time coming on. It's so. It's been really enjoyable the last couple of episodes I've done speaking with people who are clearly passionate about what they do. You can kind of see it and feel it coming through, not only in the books that we're helping people write but in the conversations that we have here. So where's the best place for people to find out more, as they're listening to this and want to kind of jump on board or just see what you're doing, where's the best place for them to go?

Tim: It would be a go to our W dot debt B, just a B, not B, e, b goneorg, that be goneorg. It's the best way to get information on our website, and so forth.

Stuart: Perfect. Well, I'll make sure there's a link to this in the show notes and the and the web page that goes along with it. So as people are listening, they can just click on the show notes on their podcast player or a lot of people go to the website, so we'll make sure there are links there and the cover of the book. As I say, it's one of my favorites because it's a lot brighter than the others and it really kind of communicates that uplifting opportunity.

Pat: You're free. Freedom You're free.

Stuart: Right, my grandparents lived in Bristol when I was a kid in the UK and there's a big Bristol balloon festival, so it's it's personally resonating.

For that reason, I just want to say thanks again for your time. It's been a real pleasure to go through the process and it's really exciting to see the book come to fruition and get out there. One of the other things that's also exciting for us on this side is we're obviously we've done a thousand books with people now, so we see people go through the process and some people do more and some people do less and like with your clients not everyone's ready or they've come and joined the program. They're not always ready to go all the way through, but the fact that you've got a program that's built around it, there's a framework within the book. There's the introduction with the idea, there's the online courses that helps people even more, your videos and then the service itself, that holistic approach, so that wherever people are, they can come and board the train and there'll be something waiting for them. So, yeah, highly recommend everyone going over to debtbegonorg and then check out what Tim and Pat have done.

Pat: Thank you.

Stuart: No problem. Thank you guys, really appreciate it. Everyone thanks for listening. Again, as I say, if you're looking on the podcast player, then head over to the website to just make sure that you get the show notes and we will catch everyone in the next one. Thank you.