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Joël and Rick discuss Joël’s new book, “Hiking the Clouds: The Seven Waypoints of Mature Faith,” exploring the stages of spiritual growth. They challenge the idea of unwavering certainty in faith, emphasizing the importance of love and unconditional trust in God, even amidst uncertainty and doubt. The conversation delves into the Dunning-Kruger effect and the progressive nature of faith, offering a reflective, rather than prescriptive, approach to spiritual maturity. 

In This Episode: 

00:00 Introduction to the Journey 

01:00 The Quest for Maturity 

02:30 Stages of Spiritual Growth 

04:00 Understanding Faith and Certainty 

08:00 Walking in the Clouds 

10:30 The Nature of Spiritual Growth 

13:00 Reflections on Job and Unconditional Love 

16:00 A Reflective Journey