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By Hilary Russo
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The podcast currently has 165 episodes available.
How can doing less help you achieve more? Dr. Zarya Rubin, a Harvard-educated doctor and functional medicine practitioner reveals her expert insights. You’ll discover how simple steps can help you transform your hectic life and ease some of the pressure that comes from rigid schedules and fears of falling behind. Uncover the root cause of what could be causing an imbalanced life. How multitasking is setting you back on productivity more than you know. Why burnout more common in women than men. And what you can finally do to take back control with some simple shifts you can apply right now! Plus, Dr. Zarya shares her own “A-Ha” moment and how becoming a health coach supported her own healing journey from an autoimmune disease. Get the resources she uses everyday and flip the switch to take back your life.
KEY MOMENTS/CHAPTERS
00:06 Intro
04:32 Medical Doctor’s Journey
05:00 The Masquerade: Is it Burnout?
12:24 Managing Busy Minds and Tasks
13:12 Perimenopause & Menopause
14:00 The Impact of Burnout on Women
19:22 Navigating Stress and Burnout Boundaries
28:37 Stress vs Burnout
35:00 Autoimmune disease: How IIN helped to heal
42:24 Embracing Balance and Self-Care
43:00 Institute for Integrative Nutrition
38:23 Rapid Fire Game
40:00 Dr. Zarya takeaway for you
42:29 Hilary’s closing thoughts and info
CONNECT WITH DR ZARYA and grab her free Burnout to Balance toolkit on her website: https://www.drzarya.com
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BECOME A HEALTH COACH
Try a Health Coach Training Program sample class from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition (IIN) https://sldr.page.link/4byd
Hilary’s IIN referral will not only get you an inside peak to IIN for free, but a deep discount if you decide to enroll in any of the programs offered.
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Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com
If you have ever wondered what it takes to grab the attention of a podcast host or booking agent to share your message, this episode is for you. It’s more than just building a powerful and personal brand. You need to turn heads of podcasts with honesty and authenticity. And if anyone knows this truth, it’s Kimberly Spencer. This Communications Queen is an award-winning high-performance coach and trainer who knows a thing or two about getting guests booked. Join us as we uncover the secrets of effective storytelling and Kimberly reveals invaluable insights from her latest book on how to authentically connect with your audience, build genuine relationships and Make Every Podcast Want You! We dive deep into the challenges women face in sharing their stories, the importance of overcoming shame from your story, and how to communicate it with power! This episode is filled with practical wisdom, emotional depth, and the encouragement to turn your story into your greatest asset.
KEY MOMENTS/CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro 01:10 Mastering the Art of Communication
06:54 The Perception of Perfection Hollywood
12:26 Forgiving My Father, His Fame, and Saving a Life
21:18 Finding Your Voice Through Storytelling
24:33 Book Hook and Writing Inspiration
27:14 Regret and Motivation in Writing 30:52 Podcasting and Authentic Storytelling
39:06 International Podcast Day Book Launch Celebration WATCH THIS EPISODE ON YOUTUBE
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Kimberly’s Book is available now! https://amzn.to/47ObGxp (Amazon) “Make Every Podcast Want You: How to Be So Radically Interesting You’ll Barely Keep from Interviewing Yourself.”
CONNECT WITH KIMBERLY https://www.communicationqueens.com
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How can life after 65 be more fulfilling than ever before? Just ask inspiring entrepreneur and podcast host Ande Lyons, who launched multiple successful ventures in her 60s. Join us as we explore how the Renaissance Years can be more fulfilling by embracing aging, defying ageism, and discovering new passions. We discuss shifting from hustle culture to an intentional energy portfolio—focusing on meaningful pursuits and rest, inspired by movements like the Nap Ministry. We also highlight the value of intergenerational connections, elder planning, and the joy of staying active. This is an opportunity to celebrate aging with purpose, endless possibilities, and a mindset that the best days are ahead of us.
KEY MOMENTS/CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
00:06 Thriving After 65
4:31 Power of Aging
18:54 Creating an Intentional Energy Portfolio
23:39 Intergenerational Connections
36:00 Don't Retire. Rewire!
39:04 Navigating Elder Care
44:07 Rapid Fire
45:29 Ande Lyon's wisdom bomb
47:01 Hilary's Final Thoughts
48:00 Podcast Resources
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Book mentioned during this episode: Don’t Retire, Rewire! By Jeri Sedlar & Rick Miners https://amzn.to/4gym8x8 (Amazon)
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Ever wondered how embracing your wild side can spark more joy and wisdom? HeatherAsh Amara can be your guide. That is, if you’re willing. During this conversation with host Hilary Russo, HeatherAsh Amara shares her journey of self-discovery from Nepal to India with stories filled with laughter and insight to inspire us to explore self-trust and playfulness, no matter our age. It’s such a big part of her journey, HeatherAsh wrote a book about it to encourage you to embrace your wild, willing, and wise. Tune in as shares her unique tools for balancing passion and flow, and hear about her personal experiences…including firewalking! This episode is all about igniting your inner spark and embracing the power of community. But also, what it takes to know when to paddle, when to rest, and when to jump naked into the river of life!
KEY MOMENTS/CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
00:05 Discovering Inner Wisdom and Wildness
4:51 Growing up Around the World
7:00 The Indian girl that changed her life
09:30 Spiritual Connection and Community
15:00 Traveling book tour
16:37 The Importance of Play
22:45 Rapid Fire
24:00 What’s in a Name?
27:51 Guest’s Final Thoughts
28:00 Hilary’s Final Thoughts
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Grab a copy of “Wild, Willing and Wise: An Interactive Guide for When to Paddle, When to Rest, and When to Jump Naked into the River of Life”
Paperback https://amzn.to/3ze15yQ (Amazon)
Kindle https://amzn.to/3z4PmTo (Amazon)
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Therapists have trauma too. If you don’t believe that, Dr. Frank Anderson has a story for you and it happens to be his own. A respected leader in the trauma therapy and Internal Family Systems space, Frank Anderson’s latest book is the memoir he never planned to write. But once the words and the music started to flow, “To Be Loved," painted a picture of a young boy’s pain that became his purpose. It’s a reminder that vulnerability and honesty pave the way for healing and compassion for those who hurt him and also freed him on so many levels. In this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, you have a front seat inside a deep conversation that serves as a reminder: healing and love are possible for all.
00:00 Intro
01:40 Vulnerability in Memoir Writing
02:10 Breaking the Us and Them Barrier
03:51 Truth and Compassion
12:35 The Healing Power of Music
20:43 Emotional Connection of Music
22:45 Forgiveness and Healing Process
36:25 Casting the Movie
47:50 Rapid Fire game with Frank Anderson
48:22 Guest Dr. Frank Anderson shares final thoughts
48:48 Host Hilary Russo close and podcast info
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Grab a copy of “To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and Transformation”
Audiobook: https://amzn.to/4cNRXi5 (Amazon)
Paperback: https://amzn.to/3X4R3Ik (Amazon)
Other Books by Dr. Frank Anderson
“Internal Family Systems Skills Training Manual: Trauma-Informed Treatment for Anxiety, Depression, PTSD & Substance Abuse”
Kindle: https://amzn.to/3Mxk4ra (Amazon)
Transcending Trauma: Healing Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems
Kindle: https://amzn.to/4ecUsfd (Amazon)
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What if you could transform your trauma into a source of hope and healing? A physician in the middle of a pandemic, who survived the earthquakes in Nepal, Dr. Christy Gibson realized the mounting rates of trauma showing up, but not being recognized. Her mess became her message when she launched the "TikTok Trauma Doc” and authored the "The Modern Trauma Toolkit", a book that is a must at your bedside. During this conversation, Christy shares profound insights on hope in trauma recovery and the hidden emotional toll on healthcare professionals. Discover the distinction between PTSD and normal responses to extraordinary situations. Explore innovative therapies like Havening and Tapping. Plus, the transformative power of community, cultural sensitivity, and the benefits of integrating Western medicine with functional approaches.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
05:27 Healing Through Havening Techniques
10:29 Trauma Healing
14:46 Community Empowerment After Disaster
19:48 Empowerment Through Self-Discovery
25:37 Exploring Integrative Trauma Healing Methods
26:57 The Role of Antidepressants and Psychedelics
38:31 Sharing Healing Skills on TikTok
42:45 Connecting Through Healing and Collaboration
43:00 Rapid Fire Game
45:16 The Modern Trauma Toolkit
47:00 Dr. Christy Gibson takeaway
48:00 Hilary Russo closing thoughts
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Paperback: https://amzn.to/3LeAW5z (Amazon)
Audiobook: https://amzn.to/3y2cC3A (Amazon)
Kindle: https://amzn.to/3xRBZoQ (Amazon)
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https://www.ChristineGibson.net
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-gibson-md/
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
00:06 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
So many people do know what they need. If, given the resources to figure that out and that's why I love the work you're doing and why I created the modern trauma toolkit is to say these are some solutions to consider. I put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems.
00:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Without hope, trauma intensifies. Think about that just for a moment, how it feels in your body, how it resonates with you, and I want you to just consider what that is like to have no possibilities, no resolution, no solutions, no hope. And I think it's safe to say that we've all been there at some point or another. Whether it is something very big or even small, that feeling of not having the control can be very overwhelming. In fact, it's common for our beautiful brain to go to that place, to want to keep us safe, to go to the negative, and it's up to us to reel her back right. If you've been with me for a while HIListically Speaking journey, you know that, whether it is the podcast or the brain candy newsletter, social, the HUG it Out Collective, wherever you're tuning in, however, we're connected. You know that. I'm all about sharing the sweetest ways to be kind to your mind and creating that space for conversations, connections, and solutions.
01:33
Hope, right, but I can't do it alone. I certainly cannot do it alone. That's why we need our tribe, our collective right, our community, and part of that is having people like Dr Christy Gibson joining me. She's part of that circle. She is not only a Havening Techniques practitioner. She is a family physician, a trauma therapist and author of the Modern Trauma Toolkit, which we're going to talk about, but also you've probably seen her as the TikTok trauma doc. Such a little like works really well, right. Well, christy, you offer such value. And when I read those words because those were your words that you said that it's now time to share what can be done to provide hope and solution focus, because without hope, trauma intensifies, it really hit me and I think we're really past due.
02:22 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
So, having you here to share your story, how you're helping, others and really talk about the book, which we will do is a gift, so thanks for being here. Well, thank you so much. What a beautiful intro Thanks, listen.
02:35 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I have to say first of all it was so good to see you in person and have an opportunity to just give you a hug and spend some time with you during the Havening Conference which we just came back from in New York and you know there were a lot of people circling around getting to know you and your book that have maybe not met you before or were really touched, moved and inspired by the book or just what you're sharing and putting out there in the world. And I know that comes from what you've been through and I think that would be a really good place to start is to really have a better understanding of who Dr Gibson is, the TikTok trauma doc, and how you came into this work.
03:12 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I think being the Dr Gibson part was actually a large part of the trauma that I didn't even know was sneaking up on me. So many others, like Lissa Rankin, a dear friend, have spoken about the trauma that's inherent in the work of being a physician, and we're not really taught to acknowledge it sufficiently. So, if I think about my origin story, while I really enjoyed being a hospital based doctor for 16 years, it took a lot out of me physically, emotionally, spiritually. Took a lot out of me physically, emotionally, spiritually. And it wasn't until I was out of that job that I recognized just how traumatic it is to like not just be up all night for 30 hours, ignoring the cues of hunger or, you know, sleep that your body is screaming at you, but also the vicarious suffering, the fact that somebody might die and then you have to go to the next room and somebody else is suffering in a different way, and we're not really taught how to process the very human feelings that we get when we're interacting with so much suffering. And that's one of the things that I needed to work on, and I'm still. It's a work in progress around my own healing, but it wasn't until I was caught in the earthquakes in Nepal in 2015,.
04:26
That PTSD kind of came on my radar. I was experiencing not PTSD, which is the disorder when it's continuing for a prolonged time and it's unexpected. This was post traumatic symptoms that I was having related to shaking. So if there was a garage in the building that I was in and the garage was moving up and down, I could feel that in every single cell of my body.
04:54
I did see a psychiatrist in Singapore. Luckily I had some insurance that was going to cover some medical visits and I said to him like, do I have PTSD? What's happening? I'm so hyper aware of everything around me. And he said, no, no, you're having a normal response to an abnormal situation and over time we'll see if this does linger beyond what's an expected amount of time. And fortunately for me, within the first two to three years the symptoms really faded and I had very few lingering symptoms. And the first time that I was exposed to Havening techniques I think I said this in the talk that I gave at our conference I processed the feeling of being in the earthquake and all of those vibratory senses that were stuck in my body and my nervous system and my very first demo experience of Havening those disappeared. So I had a very embodied, somatic experience of that, and the more techniques that I explored, the more that I was like people need to know this, physicians need to know this, all therapists need to know this.
06:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But, like humans parents, teachers, dentists, realtors, people who work with the public, who might be facing their trauma in front of them and so that's become, uh, one of my new system level interventions that I'm really keen to work on yeah, and you know, when you spoke at the conference and it was really a gift to be on stage with you there, like I always love to surround myself with like minds and we're learning from each other, right, we're almost like a masterclass to each other in different ways.
06:36
And you sharing your story and hitting on that point, that PTS, ptsd like a lot of people that aren't in the area that we're in or working in health or medicine, they compound everything and you mentioned that in your book actually about the DSM-5, you know that we're more than just a symptom, we're more than just a diagnosis and sometimes and I'm sure you hear this with patients and clients people go right to oh, I know I have this, oh, I know I have that, and then you become that thing and it's much more difficult to break that.
07:14
Well, maybe not as difficult when you have amazing tools like Havening techniques, right, but you become this. It's like you label yourself right. You become this. It's like you label yourself right According to this out-of-date DSM-5 that we're still following and it has value, but in other ways, like we're giving people the simplicity of there are so many ways that you can heal and it begins within, just be honest be knowledgeable, yeah, so I wanted to explain what PTSD was so that I could uncover that box and explain it in a way that was really easy to understand.
07:51 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
We mentioned before we started recording just the main goal for me with the Modern Trauma Toolkit was to create something that was really accessible, Even though you know I'm a doctor and I actually have a doctorate, so I'm doctor, doctor. My goal is to get knowledge into people's hands in an easy way that's not going to stir up their nervous system too much. So I wanted to write a book that was both accessible from a health literacy perspective. You don't have to know big words. You know like psychoneuroimmunology, which is the study of exactly what Havening Techniques does and how it affects the mind-body. I wanted to explain this at a grade eight level of understanding and in a way that wasn't going to talk about the big things that might happen to you and really get your nervous system triggered. So, even though it might still activate some people, I think what differentiates the Modern Trauma Tool toolkit is it's a book that you can read comfortably and then go to sleep. That was really my goal.
08:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Doesn't trigger you.
08:55 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah, for it to feel like you're getting a hug at the same time that you're getting information, which was different.
09:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, you know I'm going to resonate with that.
09:04
Yeah totally HUG it out. Having the ability to HUG it out with yourself, whatever that means to you, is really important. And if you're reading a pretty intense book at night, what do you think that's going to do to your subconscious mind? You know you're going to go into that place and constantly be thinking about it and it caused restless sleep. So being able to have something that you said is like a hug before you go to bed, a soothing technique that you can do right before you go to bed and people do like to read. I think that's beautiful. What caused you to go this route? To say I need a book, I need to write this.
09:41 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I mean, ultimately it was my patients. I work currently I mean, I still do family practice, mostly at our refugee clinic, but I work also in trauma therapy with our refugees here in Calgary and I work in adult addictions. And then I have a really small group of people that I've been seeing for many years that I still see, who have what we call a high ACE score. So that's an adverse childhood experience score and it basically means they went through trauma in childhood and they need a really gentle guiding hand and a lot of them don't have access financially to mental health care that would be good for processing trauma. They can access, you know, some basic interventions for anxiety, but for trauma processing that can get quite expensive and in Canada at least, it's not always covered. So my goal was to work in equity deserving communities, because my entire career has been working in these communities that are often denied access, denied equity, denied safety, and so that was really important to me, that I was a resource, and one of the things that I noticed is a lot of patients would say, well, what book would you recommend? And I might come up with a few podcasts that I thought would be like reasonably safe to listen to. But I really wanted a book that was diverse in terms of cultural awareness and addressing the systemic factors that a lot of my patients face in terms of classism and racism and ableism and even the medical trauma that physicians like me can perpetuate, and I felt like if I wasn't addressing that and addressing the system level traumas that are imposed on people, then it's kind of like gaslighting and saying, oh, you are the only one having this problem, this is an individual thing and you know, because I also study systems and social innovation. It was really important for me to write a book that my patients could feel safe reading and that potential was there and that I was also looking at systemic causes and solutions of the trauma. So, while I definitely focus on the individual, the systems was a part of it.
11:54
So the Modern Trauma Toolkit kind of came about in this amazing way. Actually, I was asked to write a book by publishers who had been following me on TikTok and they were listening to little tidbits from TikTok TraumaDoc and they thought, well, wow, wouldn't this be amazing in a book? And I thought, yeah, I have this book in my brain already and I sat down and wrote the outline that still stuck in the final version of the book in an afternoon, like I had this book in my head and once I flushed out the proposal, I mean there was a bidding war for the book. Lots of people were really interested in this particular view of toxic stress and this particular way of writing about it. So it was. It was so exciting.
12:38 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is exciting, and you know it's just sometimes having somebody else look at you and go. This is valuable Right else look at you and go.
12:45
This is valuable, right? So I'm in the process of writing a book myself and submitting the proposals and hearing some really great feedback, because I think there is room for all of us to share with integrity, with authenticity, with knowledgeable factual information. But where I feel that your book is different from every other book that I have come into contact with is that what you just said about the inclusivity, the diversity and being that you have worked all over the world and dealt with those kind of cultures, the misrepresented, just cultures that need this, that might not be able to afford. This is level up, is level up and I have to say I connect with that fully because in my work, when I was working with CVS Health in Aetna, which is really a big company, two big companies here in the States we did a show on the social determinants of health, where we would travel to different areas around the country and focus on areas that could not afford a spa or wellness program or therapy and they were creating their own programs so that their communities were living healthy and well.
14:02
And you see it firsthand, I know right. Doesn't it make you so exciting, like walking into food pantries and seeing a community getting together and doing a wellness project, and I'm like I was just giddy seeing this. It wasn't something I would normally see in my everyday. I don't live in that world Right, so something like this would be so beneficial the Modern Trauma Toolkit. For anybody that was just interested, maybe it's not the person that lives in that community, but somebody who's supporting them like I'm going to bring this to that community. This could be really helpful for them. You know, and it excites you to know that there are possibilities and solutions. So I appreciate you putting out something like that and taking that into account so somebody doesn't feel less than when they're presented with an issue, a problem, a trauma.
14:46 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah, and I think it took me some time because, you know, physicians are fixers, we're like, we think we are the brokers of solutions, and it took me some time to really understand that community knows their own solutions.
14:59
So this was actually my first TED Talk right after the earthquake. Interestingly, I was asked to give a TED Talk and they they didn't tell me what to talk about, they just said well, what is the earthquake making you think about? I thought honestly that I was not the solution to the problem of the earthquakes in Nepal. And so you know, western savior types, we kind of rush into disaster zones and like, if you're with something like MSF and you've got the logistics and you, you've got the expertise to handle that, that's great. But I had an expectation of myself and others had an expectation of myself and others had an expectation of me that I would be really useful after an earthquake, and I wasn't. I just wanted to be rescued. And in the meantime, the Nepali community was ready, because they have earthquakes quite regularly. And so what I had witnessed was this like sense of shame in myself about like well, you're a doctor, you should be useful. You're a Western person, what's your role here? And in the meantime, witnessing these Nepali doctors in Patten, which was the hospital I was affiliated with, so organized, so committed and so equipped to with with low resources, they still did everything they could to do exactly what was needed after the earthquake. And as I watched that unfold and community would fashion up a tent where everybody who was unhoused, whose houses had fallen down in the Patton neighborhood, they would be under these giant tents and they would have communal bowls of rice being served to 50, 100 people and I just watched all of that happen, I thought, you know, community knows what it needs. So that's, you know, watching it.
16:34
In an acute trauma, but also in chronic traumas, like when a community is facing resource scarcity, that's kind of imposed on them, that I always think of vulnerability as something that is created through the system and not intrinsic to that person, or definitely not that community.
16:50
And there are so many solutions. So that's why I talked about things like asset-based community development and I taught people how to run a social innovation lab, because I actually did that at a healthcare center that I was working at and I thought what are the ways that we can ask community how to solve their own problems? We create an advisory council, we did digital storytelling projects. So many people do know what they need if given the resources to figure that out, and that's why I love the work you're doing and why I created the Modern Trauma Toolkit is to say these are some solutions to consider. I put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems. Put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems.
17:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh yeah, girl, I get it. This is why I love having people like you in my circle, because we learn from each other. Like I said, and I'm sitting here listening to you thinking the last thing a community wants is somebody to come in and tell them to change everything and take away part of what might be part of their culture. Right, totally Like ripping that away from them and saying this is how it's going to solve the problem. It's like you don't know me, you don't know the ancestral importance that goes on with how we do things and you see that so much like we can fix you.
18:06
And, yes, there are elements that you can synergetically bring into a culture and see how it works for them. But when I see that those areas where it's just like rip out, this is a solution, it's like do you have any idea the value that this community has in themselves, the pride, even if it, even if their currency is not high as far as financially, their currency, and pride for who they are is you know, and I think it's really listening and as we talk more about inclusivity and diversity and how we can really work together to help each other in this global village, this blue marble. We live on. These conversations need to happen.
18:51 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I love so much how you phrase that, Hilary, around that intrinsic value, and I think we talk so much about ancestral trauma and that's very real. And I do love the somatic technique. So in the book I have a chapter on Havening, a chapter on EFT tapping. So in the book I have a chapter on Havening, a chapter on EFT tapping, a chapter on tremoring, because these are really easy things to learn in the comfort of your home and definitely if you're dealing with trauma, you probably need some professional guidance so that you don't freeze or dissociate or flood or get overwhelmed. But these somatic tools should be taught in school. They should be taught to everybody. Tools should be taught in school. They should be taught to everybody. And just as we acknowledge and work on that subconscious ancestral trauma that sometimes is pre-verbal and body-based solutions are so much more helpful. I love also focusing on the value of ancestral wisdom and culture and so people don't think that it's adding to their vulnerability. It's also an intrinsic strength. Yeah, I just love how you phrase that.
19:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I'll have to read back on what I said and watch this, because sometimes I just say things because I'm so passionate about it, which I'm sure you do too, but it just comes from such an authentic place. It really is about not us empowering anybody, not us healing anybody, but giving them the tools so that they're self-empowered. We don't want to own that, and I say this a lot, and I'm sure you do too. It's like the best thing that I could ever have from a client is them saying I don't think I need you anymore.
20:21
I want that Comment, if you have another upset or issue or something else you want to talk about, but I don't want you to need me, right? I want you to know that you have everything you need right here and if you need additional assistance outside of what your own body and mind, the secret language that exists right here has, then we can come back and have another conversation, because we all need each other anyway, you know. So it's making it so simple and like even in the subtitle of the book, which is nurture your post-traumatic growth right With personalized solutions, your personalized your post-traumatic growth right and thinking about we're always on this growing journey, you know.
21:07 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
And thinking about. We're always on this growing journey, you know, and I think we are to some extent, but there are a lot of people who feel stuck, that they don't know the next steps to take, and so what I love is how many of us are putting out good information into the world that's free and accessible and anyone can find it. I didn't know these solutions. You know I had been a practicing physician for probably 18 years before I took a deep dive into trauma healing and I ended up getting certified in like a dozen different modalities, because I'm just a very innately curious person, and it's not that I don't use them in my practice I definitely do. But also part of what I love doing is sharing, and so I'll talk about Havening, but I'll also talk about my favorite processing technique is called accelerated resolution therapy, and it was the very first one I learned, and when I started doing it as a doctor, I started to recognize that I had patients who had terrible lung disease and they were always working to catch their breath and so much of it was actually obstructed breathing because they had a sense of suffocation and even like an energetic disruption in their breath cycle related to trauma. And once we processed trauma they breathed differently. I had another patient whose diabetes was totally out of control. Their A1c, which is a marker of sugar in their bloodstream, was up above 14, which is like twice as high as it should be. We did trauma processing together. They processed like one of the most heartbreaking traumas I've ever borne witness to and their A1c dropped in half and it's been almost normal since that time, and so much of it was this disconnection to their own body. So sometimes people can't find solutions on their own because they're either not wanting to acknowledge that their mind-body system is alive and functioning that's a safety mechanism is to dissociate and to disconnect from your own system. Part of establishing that safety was processing some of these big things that people went through.
23:10
And once I started to recognize how far upstream this was. So upstream interventions are the ones that are more preventative and they're earlier and healing from trauma and healing your nervous system. State when your amygdalas are firing and telling you every single day that you're in danger. Well, that's exhausting and it's taking a lot of your energy and it's actually turning off your immune system and all of the parts of your body that are self-healing.
23:36
So we help your Amy's your amygdalas and say like, hey, I don't think you're in danger anymore, or could you just learn the moments when you can be in a safe and connected nervous system state? Then all of these self-healing mechanisms kick in again, and once I saw that firsthand using accelerated resolution therapy, I was like, okay, wow, what else is there? And as a physician, this is one of the most important things I could be doing. So I mean, it was really exciting for me to witness that within my family practice. I just remember my first couple of years exploring this back in like 2017, 18, and the transformations I was seeing and thinking there's nothing more important than this.
24:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and thinking there's nothing more important than this, yeah, yeah. And I want to ask you so many questions about how a medical doctor because, look, when you're dealing with Western med and you're taught a certain way, thinking about techniques and other possibilities outside of what has traditional Western med, there are some people that aren't going to gravitate to that. So I want to talk about that in a second, but I do want to remind folks the Modern Trauma Toolkit, dr Christy Gibson's book an amazing, put in your library, right, and we're going to have a link to this in the podcast notes for you to grab it. If you have already read the book would love to know what you think about it. Leave a comment, a, a review, a rating, anywhere that you're tuning in. If you are curious about how to get in touch with dr christie myself, I'm going to have all that in the podcast notes.
25:15
And, of course, if this is touch, moved and inspired you in any way this conversation thus far, pay it forward. Let somebody else know about it. If you know somebody that's like oh, I know someone who's confronted with this, or I know someone that might want to bring these tools into their community, pay it forward my somebody that's like oh, I know someone who's confronted with this, or I know someone that might want to bring these tools into their community. Pay it forward, my friend. That's. The best way to build community in a collective is to let others know about it. So thank you for that. Doctor Christy Gibson I hear this a lot because I have a lot of doctors on the show. I've had traditional Western medicine doctors who are some of them are even leaving their practice because they feel kind of, you know, tied, mainly here in the States, especially going into functional medicine, integrative approaches because they're tied. What made you say aha, no, I gotta, I gotta look into this.
26:08 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Well, and I think in Canada we have a little bit more leeway because we don't have, like, a health insurance company dictating how we manage our patients.
26:16
So we we do have a little bit more freedom to explore and be flexible. I know a lot of people who are straddling integrative and Western techniques. I'm also in the lifestyle medicine community and I think a lot of that is so natural and intrinsically preventative. There is that exploration. So lots of physicians that I know are exploring and I like to think of myself as really straddling both worlds and hoping to bring them together because I don't think either of them has all of the answers right. So the more that we collect all of the different tools that are available, people will be able to personalize the things that work for them. So even though I haven't seen a lot of evidence that antidepressants are curative for PTSD, I've had some patients who really benefit from it. So even though I have a lot more tools in my toolkit than medications, I'm never going to say to a person oh, this can't work for you because that's not everyone's experience. So I love how, because we're recognizing in medicine that trauma. There is no single pill that's going to miraculously heal trauma. Although psychedelics do hold a lot of promise, we need this in an integrated way. I mean, a psychedelic medication, in my perspective, is not going to work if you just take it and you're in a room by yourself. Trauma, especially relational trauma, heals in relationships, and so the set and the setting in a therapeutic relationship surrounding the use of psychedelics is the factor, and so I think that's one of the reasons why the FDA kind of voicing concern over it is because, like, how do you manualize all of those safety mechanisms around it?
27:57
I was taught in medical school try SSRIs or antidepressants for almost every you know psychiatric condition. For PTSD we're told to use blood pressure medications, so alpha blockers or beta blockers that change the way that your heart rate is beating and then perceived, so you don't necessarily have that body-based trigger for anxiety, and that could help with nightmares. It would help you potentially have a calm body as you're falling asleep and less likely to cue up those intrusive symptoms. That was all we had in our armamentarium. And then, in terms of therapy, I was told cognitive behavior therapy is the gold standard for almost everything, and I had a lot of unlearning to do.
28:45
I think curiosity and humility are really, really important for all professionals to keep, and we're not always good at it. We're like well, this is what I was taught and this is what the evidence says. And I write a disclaimer really early in the chapter on Havening. And I actually felt a bit bad because Dr Ron Rudin was sitting on the chair next to me reading through my chapter because I'd gifted him a copy and I was like, oh, how's he going to feel? Because I said right in the first few paragraphs it doesn't have the level of randomized clinical trials or randomized control trial that I'm used to seeing as a medical doctor and yet it's one of the most effective treatments that I've been exposed to. So I wanted to be to put that out there and say, even though I am a scientist, I've got a doctor doctor behind my name. I'm also going to listen to my patients and see what's working and try to understand the neurophysiology. And that's what I love about what the Rudin's did.
29:43
Is they really researched? What are the parts of the inner brain mechanisms that are being activated through the Havening techniques and what is the physiological basis about why these work? And I've started to research that around eye movement techniques like accelerated resolution therapy and brain spotting, deep brain reorienting there's a lot of different therapies where there's actually research into what's happening in your brainstem, and so part of why I love being a doctor who's using these body based, somatic, integrative, psycho sensory, all of these new techniques is I love exploring why they might be working and we're coming up with some not just theories, but even Ruth Lanius's lab in Ontario. She's a psychiatrist who does a lot of basic science research and she's using functional MRI imaging to show how different kinds of techniques are working in the treatment of trauma, so we're actually starting to see the scientific evidence of something that we clinically knew was working. This is such an exciting time, so exciting knew was working.
30:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is such an exciting time, so exciting and while you're talking about being there next to Dr Ron and having him read, that and it made me think, like what if someone picks up this book or somebody does Havening and tries it for the first time and they're willing to fund a study because they want?
31:05
to know more and they've seen it Like just getting it out there is know you do that. This is such a nurturing, loving, effective technique and it's so simple, much like many of the others in the book as well. But for something like this, where I know and you know, I said this during my presentation you get the question, you get a lot is what's happening? Right? But fine, ask that question because I'd love to tell you what it is.
31:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Or I'd love to share it with you, or I'd love to show you how it works.
31:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, I was at a car dealership yesterday having a one-to-one with one of my fellow business networking people and of course you know I'm learning about his business, he's learning about mine. He's like what is it? I was like how long you got. I'm like leave the door open, Don't worry what's going on around you. I can show you what this is in five minutes and let's see how you feel. It's that easy, right? So just being able to put it out there in the inquisitive curiosity of others who might be able to help put a modality like this next level, it's just keep talking about it, which brings me to TikTok trauma doc. Okay, Like that's a whole level up, and I know this is something that you, you, you started doing this during the pandemic, obviously right, Because we're all bored.
32:31 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Well, and it was. It was a young person who encouraged me, so I have a couple of amazing young people in my life.
32:37
I don't have biological kids, but there's a woman named Aishwarya that I met when she was in university and it started off as a mentorship relationship but it definitely deepened. We text almost daily now and one of the things that happened quite early in the pandemic. This was January 2021, when I joined, and she said you know, the way that you explain mental health concepts is really different. Like you have just a way of using language that I can really get what you're saying, whereas I've heard this concept before and I don't think I understood it in the same way. You need to get on TikTok. And so she taught me that I had to watch YouTube videos about how to TikTok, which is so meta when you think about it. So I joined, you know, january 2021. By the time, I had my book deal guessing that was a year later I had about 60,000 followers and then, like now, I have about 130,000. I mean, kate Truitt has a lot too.
33:32
Like there's there's a few of us in the Havening community that are really trying to put this out there, and because TikTok is being targeted as a social media education platform in the states that may or may not survive. I am trying to upload more to Instagram and YouTube and my Facebook, so those would be under Christine or Christy Gibson MD. Some places I'm called Gibtrotter. My Facebook, uh, so those would be under Christine, christine or Christy Gibson MD. Um. Some places I'm called Gib trotter, uh, because I I travel so much, um so. So there, there are different platforms I'm using. All of them are um Christine.
34:13
Gibsonnet is my um as my professional page, so you can track me down and we'll share all of that.
34:17 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We'll share all that in the podcast notes so that you can get in touch with Dr Christy, but like they're going to find you anyway, well, and part of me worries that TikTok will be gone by the time.
34:25 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
This airs Like it does feel like a really real thing that they might take away from us, and I personally love that community. There's so many good mental health practitioners there mental health practitioners there and there is misinformation, but it's pretty easy to weed out. You can figure out both who's got credibility. But also, is the thing that they're sharing working for you? Is it actually helping heal your nervous system and learning to touch in and figure out which of the techniques are actually feeling good for you and how is your day going once you've learned these? And that's what I think is so special about Havening is people have such a body-based understanding of how it helps immediately after trying five minutes in a car dealership.
35:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Come on, exactly. It's like just give it a try. The first step is the hardest. It's stepping into the tension of saying well, all right, I got five minutes, let me see what she's doing on this old ticky-tock right or anything. And I came to the TikTok game a little later and that was okay. But because I feel like we all are sharing in some way, like you mentioned, dr Kate, yourself, the podcast is big for me, or Instagram, and it's really finding what works for you. So we're kind of infiltrating every possibility, you know, and then we'll like if things move around and things do go away and you know we've seen that happen with other social media sites we'll find our way and people will find us, you know it's just keeping authentic and putting out the content.
35:54
But my big question is how does someone who has not done that you're watching all these videos on youtube, like you said? I mean, how much time did you invest in that?
36:04 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
yeah, I mean there was definitely a time investment to try to figure out what does the algorithm like, and I mean I had to watch a lot of tick tocks to see, well, what are the trending sounds and the trending themes and um. So I definitely did some of that. Like, my first videos that blew up were on trending sounds, that I was doing something kind of interesting based on that. So one of the early ones was kind of my journey through medicine and then learning how to be a trauma therapist, and I did that to music. And then my first video that really blew up was related to Havening. It was describing information. So it got like a million views.
36:41
I didn't relate it to Havening in the video, I just wanted to share what informations were.
36:45
But I learned this when I was studying the Havening techniques and so then after that video blew up, I was like OK, gosh, I got to tell people the origin story. So I had to explain like who actually came up with the formations and what the what ifs were and how I learned them in Havening training. And it's one of the things I like so much about the techniques is there is the body based practicing of, you know, the gentle brushing on the areas of your body that create calming delta, theta waves in the brain. And people are creating these amazing techniques to go along with it. And people are creating these amazing techniques to go along with it, and that's what I was trying to share in this integrative way at the conference is we are starting to just learn all of the amazing potential within these techniques, so using them with if formations or what if statements. Harry Pickens says that this plant seeds of possibility in the neural garden. I love how he describes that.
37:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
With his voice too.
37:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Oh, I know.
37:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You can listen to Harry all day.
37:43 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah.
37:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Fellow Havening practitioner, my friends.
37:46 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Amazing human. And I like how you said voice, because voice is really important to me too. And so when I'm sharing on my TikTok channel, when I was reading the audio book at the Hachette offices in New York which was like the coolest week of my life I was really deliberate and saying, like, my voice has to feel safe enough. Because of polyvagal theory, we know that tone of voice and the way that you are moving your facial muscles actually makes a person's nervous system feel safer. So we can co-regulate through the mirror neurons in our brain that are saying, hey, is this person safe? And tone of voice makes a huge difference for that. So there was all of these factors that were important for me in terms of delivering the message.
38:31
So when I'm on TikTok and I'm thinking, well, what is the thing that I want to share, sometimes I can get my tone of voice a little into that sympathetic fight and flight tone if I'm talking about the systems that are harming people. But when I'm giving those healing skills, I want people to really have an understanding right away. Oh, wow, my nervous system feels different. That's so exciting to be able to share. Oh, my nervous system feels different.
38:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's so exciting to be able to share Totally. And I had that moment thinking, oh, she was at the publisher's office recording the book, soothing yourself because of that whole Vegas nerve. And that's why we do the OM, that's why we sing Different ways that you can create that safety in your own body while you're sharing it with others. So it's like paying it forward in your own way while you're sharing it with others. So it's like paying it forward in your own way while you're reading your own book. I mean that must have been fascinating.
39:23 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
And I mean it's not just reading the book, because that was like, even though it was an amazing week, it was, it was just a week, but I find I don't feel as stressed at the end of my day. So a lot of my physician friends will say, like how can you listen to trauma stories all day? And like A I don't tend to encourage people giving me too many details about their trauma. That can strengthen the pathway towards those memories. But for me to do something like Havening or tapping along with my patients all day, like I'm doing this you know, 80% of the day I'm using one of those techniques during a session I feel so different. I feel so regulated and calm at the end of the day. So I feel like I'm processing a lot of my own nervous system dysregulation, from being present to suffering. That's not a skill that I learned as a physician and all of us need it.
40:16
So, I'm trying so hard to get this book into health professionals hands to say like you're dealing with suffering all day, how are you managing that? Like, yeah, like, be gentle with yourself and learn something that will help your nervous system too, and then share it with all of your patients.
40:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Absolutely. I said that last year at the conference because you know, coming from the background as a journalist, the forgotten first responders were like the first ones on scene first ones to hear the story.
40:43
We're taking in all that information just like if it's a patient or a client and you don't want to take that home with you, and then you're thinking you're just burned out or overwhelmed and it's like so much deeper. It's that secondary traumatic stress, right, the vicarious trauma. So understanding, okay, I've got a lot that's coming at me. I can self-regulate while I'm listening to this person.
41:08
It actually allows them to mirror back and feel more comfortable knowing that you're not just sitting across from someone in a Freudian way on a couch being like, tell me your feelings, you're part of the process with them. Like, hey, I'm human too. I got feelings, I got, I got a nervous system that's out of whack every once in a while. I hear you, right, and they just want to be heard. We want to be heard. So, on that note, love everything we're sharing. We're going to put it all in the podcast notes.
41:30
Again, the modern trauma toolkit You're going to find it because I'm going to share it with you. Also, dr Christy on TikTok so much that you can do to find Christy and bring her into your toolkit as well with what she's sharing. So we'll share all that. But I want to have a little fun with you before we go, because this is where, if you ever listened to my podcast, you know this is coming. If you haven't, you're in for a treat. So I play a game called Rapid Fire, where I have written down words that you've said and I throw them out at you and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind.
42:05 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
No problem, let's do it.
42:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, I know You're like ready for this. Okay, here we go. Relationships.
42:12 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
People.
42:14 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Safety.
42:16 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Calm.
42:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Toolkit.
42:18 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I know it's two words exciting growth potential earthquake, I want to say shook me well, that's okay, vicarious healing trauma opportunity.
42:37 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Healing, trauma, opportunity, tiktok.
42:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Fun.
42:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Are you having fun on it?
42:43 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I do yeah, absolutely.
42:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Look, I found you on there and I didn't even know you were a Havity practitioner back when you first did it, because we don't know everybody, even though we're a small group. There's only like a thousand of us. At that time there probably were six, seven hundred. But even at that point I'm like how does this lady know all about Havening? And then I was like, oh, that makes sense and I love that. I was like you just kind of like hi-fi in the screen, you know. So thank you for everything you're putting out there and just everything you're doing and creating this beautiful book and everything that you are doing to help people on their healing journey. I imagine we'll probably have some opportunities to connect and collaborate in the future, because I so align with everything you're doing and it would be a gift to do that in the future. But I want to ask you if there's anything you want to leave with those who are tuning in.
43:32 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Just the way that you started the session. Let's finish with hope. A lot of people feel like this is who I am kind of. What you said earlier is this I am defined by the trauma that I've been through. That is not necessarily your story. You can always change your story and I think there are so many pathways towards that possibility for folks and I just encourage them to explore the paths that are feeling right for them, Because the path can lead to tremendous amounts of healing and I believe that's possible for all people.
44:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, and you know that was one word I never put in the rapid fire. What do you feel when you hear the word?
44:14 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
hope the word hope, yeah, magic. I feel like some of the things that I've been able to study and I feel so grateful to know it After finishing a session with somebody, that I can see the neuroplasticity happening in real time and their brain is rewiring. It feels magical, and I've had patients use that word and it's just the most uh, wonderful experience. Um, and you're right, it's. It's watching them heal themselves.
44:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's magic it's like a silent hi-fi, like you're part of the process, but you're just happy. Somebody else is joyfully present and able to just live their lives well, optimally, you know, or has a new tool to do so. It's a good feeling.
45:01 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
It is a good day for a good day when that happens.
45:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, thank you, christy, it was a pleasure Thank you for being here.
45:09 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Oh, thank you so much. That was an amazing conversation, Hilary. It's so great to spend more time with you.
45:16 - Hilary Russo (Host)
If this conversation aligned with you in any way, I want you to do us a solid over here at HIListically Speaking. Pay it forward, share it with others who might find value too, and just by leaving a rating and review wherever you tune in, it gives others a chance to find this podcast and conversations like this. The Modern Trauma Toolkit. My friend, this book is a must, and I put a link in the podcast notes so that you can grab a copy. Start trying out some of these amazing approaches. See what Dr Christy Gibson has to say. You can also find links to connect with her on whatever social media platform you choose, and you heard us talk about Havening. I talk about it a lot, but it was wonderful to talk about it with Christy and how you can be a part of the journey to put active emotional well-being in your own hands. If you're interested, there is a link and you can HUG it Out with you can with me and see if Havening aligns with you. Plus, you can come to one of my free Havening happy hours that I host every month, a supportive online event where you not only get to learn how to do Havening or continue to do it if you've been doing it already, but you have me as your guide during the experience. It's a wonderful way to do a little Q&A, a little discussion and lots of loving Havening. You can also join the free Hug it Out Collective that is my Facebook group. It is a supportive, safe space where others just like you are on the path to becoming, or continuing to be, a happy and healthy HIListically Speaking, , is edited by 2 market media, with music by Lipbone Redding and supported and listened to by you.
46:55
So, thank you. There is always hope. That's what I want to leave. So, thank you. There is always hope. That's what I want to leave you with today. There's always hope and as long as you've got me as your guide and me by your side, I will make sure that you always remember that I love you, I believe in you and I'm sending hugs your way. Be well.
I have sleep apnea. I also had major jaw surgery at 15. Are they connected? If I had a Magic 8 Ball, it would likely say, “All signs point to Yes”. And so would one pioneer in holistic dentistry by the name of Dr. Claire Stagg.
Through my personal journey of trauma and jaw surgery, we highlight the limitations of conventional solutions like CPAP and oral appliances, underscoring the need for a comprehensive, whole-body approach. Dr. Stagg shares invaluable insights into the interconnectedness of our body's systems, focusing on non-surgical solutions for TMJ, clenching, grinding, sleep apnea, and airway disorders.
This is about building your symphony of specialists who focus on the root cause, not just the diagnosis. It's the conversation I wish my parents and I had over 35 years ago when I sat in the dentist's chair. Today, I hope it serves as a guide for anyone struggling to find answers. And for parents, let it offer a new kind of hope for your kids to leave you better informed when it comes to your dental health and overall well-being.
Grab a copy of Dr. Stagg's book, “Smile: It's All Connected"
Hardcover: https://amzn.to/3XLYm9X (Amazon)
Share storytime about proper dental health with her children's book "Captain IFBI" https://amzn.to/4cipP7l (Amazon)
Get the Daily Dental Protocol Checklist. https://lp.constantcontactpages.com/sl/Y4V5mXB
CONNECT WITH DR STAGG
https://healthconnectionsdentistry.com/ https://www.instagram.com/SmileProDentist https://www.facebook.com/SmileProDentist
HEALING IN YOUR HANDS. HAVENING WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso https://www.facebook.com/HIListicallySpeaking/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/hugitoutcollective/ https://x.com/hilaryrusso https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
FULL TRANSCRIPT ALSO ON PODCAST WEBSITE
00:06 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Think about all the systems that are shut down because you can't breathe right? The oral appliance isn't going to fix it. The CPAP is definitely not going to fix it, because what's going to happen is the body is going to acclimatize or get used to that level of band-aiding and then it's like okay, you know what it is. The little Dutch boy with his finger came to mind with a dam. So you put one finger here and then you put one finger here, and then you put one finger here and you put one finger, and then you're not gonna have enough fingers or toes, and then the dam's gonna break. And it's exactly the same concept.
00:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Okay, my friends, One of the reasons I went into the work that I do is it was an effort to heal my own trauma and, as a result of that, from having TMJ my whole life, from having jaw surgery when I was a teenager and not knowing really how to heal and not getting the right kind of support after that surgery, I wanted to know what I could do to heal later in life, because we really never stop healing, right? You hear me talk about that all the time and it's really how Havening came into my life. It was the first time I was ever Havened was on the trauma from my surgery years later. But what we're learning is that it's all connected. Everything from head to toe. It's all connected. Everything from head to toe, it's all connected.
01:32
So when I was introduced to Dr Claire Stagg, a holistic dentist who believes in the whole body approach thank you so much I knew that her story and her method would resonate with so many others, because I've had these conversations with so many Dr Stagg about TMJ, jaw issues, clenching, grinding, stress and the problems that happen after the breathing, the sleep apnea, and it's such a common problem. So when you came into my space, when I was introduced to you by a client who you introduced me to, I knew that you were the right person to talk about this, to share the journey, to share possibilities, and I am so grateful that you are here.
02:12 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Well, thank you, thank you, and I think it would be good to, if it's okay with you, to answer your questions and your journey, because I think you went through the whole gamut of from the start out the gate to the journey itself. So the first thing I'd like to add is that surgery is a massive undertaking and, unfortunately, one of the things because you and I have talked before this is that, without stepping on too many toes and being politically correct, it would be wise to figure out why orthognathic surgery is being done. A lot of times people are having their jaws move forward without understanding how the whole concepts work, and a lot of times some things can be done, so a lot and some can be done non-surgically. You just don't know what. You don't know until you know it. So surgery is a end-all, be-all concept and if you have a broken bone, it's a good time to put things together.
03:20
But the head, the cranium, all these things keep moving all the time. I have a skull here with sutures. I mean this is just the top part, if you will, this is the front. The head you can tell Fred moves a lot too with me. Then this is the part that I work with and this is what I tell everybody, this is what I do right this part and right this part, and then this part. All right, but not as crooked. But what happened is you had your surgery to go ahead and to fix something that might have been fixable without it actually having to have the surgery. So here we go. I'm trying to put it all together for you and showing us us on YouTube.
04:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We are on YouTube in case anybody wants to watch the video rather than just listen. It is on YouTube.
04:10 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right. So what I'm trying to say basically is that if you approach and saying that you need jaw surgery, please educate yourself more before you go down that rabbit hole, because it makes us a lot harder for us who are coming in behind to work on, to have arch expansion or arch development or airway issues to resolve them, if we're trying to move bone when you have screws tying them in. That's all I'm trying to say. So I interjected very early on. I'm sorry, but that's where I think. If you start off the gate that way and I think, unfortunately your issues, if I may say so, continued and stemmed from the actual surgery. They were trying to do one thing, but you ended up with a lot of other things. So that's where we have to weigh the pros and the cons, right.
04:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Absolutely.
04:59 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Very delicate.
05:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and it's something that you know. Back in the 80s, when this surgery was done, I was 15 years old. What was known about it? It was pretty much a younger surgery. The surgery itself was hours, the healing process was eight to 10 weeks with a jaw wired shut, and just you know. If this is triggering to anyone, I just want to preface that we're going to go there, that this surgery was not a minor surgery that you're doing in a dental office. I had a doctor that dealt with the face, I had an orthodontist, I had a dentist. It was like this team. And even after the surgery, a year later, I had follow-up surgery and I told myself. I said this has got to be it Like there can't be more than this because it was very traumatic. And this has got to be it Like this, there can't be more than this, because it was very traumatic. And the years following, because I was still growing, there was movement still happening, obviously, right.
05:55 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So, and at 15, you're not finished growing. And that's the other thing to girls and boys grow differently. Girls can grow, still continue growing, sometimes up to 18, sometimes maybe even 21. Boys start later, but they can continue growing. I have a friend of my former husband who was continuing to grow tall at 29 plus. So everybody's different, but 15 is very young to do that.
06:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It was young. It was a decision I had to make.
06:21 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
We could start a column of pros and cons there, Hihillary, of things that could go really really well and things that we might want to wait because they might cause problems later on, right?
06:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But this is also something that you have a lot of younger patients and I know that there are moms and dads out there that listen that this might not be for them, specifically someone who's in my age range, but perhaps their child has breathing issues or they are dealing with. You know, I had the malocclusion, I had a protruded lower jaw and it was causing a lot of lockjaw and pain and discomfort and to go to that extreme after braces. I imagine that's not the approach this day and age, because there's more science, there's been more development, so it's also to give parents an understanding of information that they're getting about holistic dentistry and other possibilities before taking that approach with their children even.
07:19 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
All right, so let's go ahead about and talk. Interject also because you had four premolars extracted correct?
07:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, I think you're talking about the wisdom teeth. No, no, no, oh no.
07:32 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
The 18 year old molar right. We, in theory, have 32 teeth, all right. Unfortunately, and I'm just so we're. We're going to talk about all the not to do things all right, to put it in quotes for air, quotes for those who are listening there are a lot of things that and I'm not bashing orthodontists, please don't get me wrong, I'm not. I do orthodontics too, so that's not the issue. There's different ways of doing things all right. That's not the issue. There's different ways of doing things All right. One of them and if you, if you read or you know of Western Price, western Price talked about nutrition, about airway, of growing, of growing arches. All right, your head, your neck. So basically we're back to this again All right.
08:21
And unfortunately, what happens is that when you have the jaw joint like this, all right, this is this is, think of it this way, like this, and then like that, when you translate, okay, what happens? A lot of times? You end up with a jaw disorder or joint disorder if this whole part, this maxilla, this part, is not developed enough and it sounds to me like what you had was an underdeveloped upper arch right. So, unfortunately, a lot of times, people say, oh, this one, they think that this is the normal one. And then this is too far forward, the lower jaw is too far forward, and that's why you end up having all these issues. Let's go ahead and let's take teeth out and bring the jaw back. Well, you've just created a joint problem, a TM joint, temporal mandibular joint problem, because now you shove the joint back, the jaw back. So now you see the cascade of events and this is what I was trying to say the cascade of events, of all the not to do so. First of all, figure out why you need surgery, what has happened, and then all the not to do so. You can't compound a problem with another, causing causative problem that will create another set of problems.
09:48
So the first thing that you want to do is you want to be able to develop the arches and figure out which one truly is underdeveloped, because nine times out of ten, it's not necessary that the lower jaw is too far forward. Most of the time it's because the upper arch is not developed enough. And so, in order to balance them, conventional orthodontics go ahead and say let's take teeth out to make more room. Well, there's just so much. Think of a garage. This is my favorite analogy that I use. All right, think of a garage and let's say you have a 20 by 20 by 24, four walls that are 20 feet long, right? So it's a square, okay. And you say you're going to make more room and you decide to take four feet off in the length of each side of the garage. Will you have a bigger or a smaller?
10:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
garage. You're not going to have a lot of space for those cars, that's for sure, correct. But you have a smaller garage, right, right, and it's exactly the same thing with the mouth, all right.
10:55 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So think too, now that you have on top of that garage, you have another room, all right, which is the nose. The nose, if you will, is a hollow space, all right. But the floor of the nose is the roof of the mouth, which you've just made smaller. What are you doing to the nasal passages? It's the same exact thing. Now you've brought the jaws up and back, you've made the garage or the box smaller. You've made the nasal passages smaller. Now you've brought everything back. What's back here? It's the tube that the airway is. So you start breathing through the nose, and the tube continues from the nose down to the throat.
11:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And again, I just want to mention to folks if folks are actually listening and they want to see what Dr Stagg is talking about, you can go ahead and find this podcast episode on youtubecom slash Hilary Russo. You'll see all the podcast episodes there to watch as well, if you want to do that.
11:58 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So, if you go ahead, when you think about it, this is a person laying down, but this is the best picture that I can have right now to where we need to breathe through our nose. A lot of people breathe through their mouths, but, no matter what, if you lay back and everything closes up, then you have OSA or obstructive sleep apnea. So, basically, what I'm trying to say is the rabbit hole started by, probably, the diagnosis of lack of airway or lack of space, and so that's where it would be important to go ahead and to determine what type of space do you want? Which space are you trying to open up? The nasal passage or the oropharyngeal passageway? An oral mouth? Pharynx is the back, where the throat is. So in your case, it sounds to me like they wanted to go ahead and to move your jaw so that you can have straight teeth, right.
12:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That was part of it, and also I was getting a lot of pain and jaw aches. So they broke it, set it back and I don't know if I truly remember everything because I was a kid. You know you think you're getting braces, retainers, it's all to straighten your teeth. That's it, day is done, perfect teeth and you're happy. But there were more issues I was dealing with and that is where I am now, 35 years later, where the problems have become the obstructive sleep apnea movement and wondering where does one go next when you have years in between and other issues are now coming up.
13:32 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right. So the rabbit hole you're down at the bottom of the rabbit hole, right? Okay? So we're not going to cry over spilt milk, because it is what it is, it's done. But now you're aware that there are issues that you have to deal with. Okay, so then the goal is to figure out how we can get you out of the rabbit hole by reverse engineering what has occurred. So, basically, now you're going to address your airway, you're going to address your jaw joints, you're going to address your bite and you're going to address your nasal passages both going to address your nasal passages, both upper and lower. That's the airway, all, right. So this is where you mentioned that you were talking with um sleep doctors. Okay, that's one part of the orchestra. If you will, all right, then you're going to talk with dentists. That's the other part of the team, if you will, the orchestra.
14:22
I like to say that patients are the music. You either have harmony or cac. Say that patients are the music. You either have harmony or cacophony. It's a French term. You either have chaos or you have health, right. So the whole idea now is to figure out who's going to be in charge of trying to figure out what's wrong, what happened where you are now, because we can't reverse engineer everything to. If you have screws in there, per se, all right, but the whole idea is to figure out what can we do to either see what we can ameliorate or make better and or stop from getting worse. So that's the interesting part is that's where you really need to figure out where you are now.
15:02
If you do have an airway issue, to what intensity is the airway issue an issue? Those of you who do not know anything about sleep apnea we have either a sleep test, a home sleep test, to where you can take a little apparatus. Home Dentists, we're not allowed to diagnose sleep apnea, but we can treat it with oral appliances. So mild to moderate sleep apnea we can treat with an oral appliance. Severe sleep apnea is supposed to be treated. Standard of the gold, standard of care is with a CPAP machine, which stands for continuous positive air pressure. It's like a reverse blow dryer mower back up your nose or your mouth, right. So if you consider that you have an issue, then we need to figure out what your index or your indices are. So, again, a lot of this is on my website, healthconnectionsdentistrycom, where you can read up on the sleep screenings. Again, we cannot diagnose sleep apnea, but we can treat it with an oral appliance.
16:07
Mild to moderate sleep apnea, usually at normal. Zero to five. Your indices are normal. Five to 15, it's mild sleep apnea, 15 to 30, it's moderate and over 30 is severe. Now, those are just the standard of care, the norms and the indices and who cares right. All you really need, as a patient, to know is whether I can breathe or not. Please, let me breathe or not. Let me help me breathe. So if you go ahead and you consider them, that's why you can have a home sleep test and we do home sleep test, because it helps me figure out as a dentist, because I can treat a functional breathing disorder that is in my wheelhouse. But I cannot treat sleep apnea without it being diagnosed by a physician. So if you have officially been diagnosed as you have Hilary with by a physician for sleep apnea, then that's where, too, you need to find yourself a doctor, dentist, who is versed in this type of care. So then you need to figure out where you're going to go from there.
17:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And I think that's the thing, and I've talked to other people and I know folks are tuning into this episode of HIListically Speaking with Dr Claire Stagg. Just to remind you, we will put that information on the website. We will put everything about the healthconnectionscom dentistry. Also her book that we're going to talk about that just came out. That's doing very well. And the questions I've been hearing from some who have been in these forums are are you know if you've been diagnosed with moderate sleep apnea? Like myself, I've also been through this traumatic TMJ surgery. I'm 35 years in. I know there are little plates in my mouth from the initial surgery and I've been given a referral to see an ENT, a referral to see a pulmonologist, a referral to see a speech pathologist. But then there's the airway side and then there's go find a dentist and it can be very overwhelming, like where to go first right.
18:12
And I think that's the similar question I hear from folks.
18:15 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Where do I go first? Right, and that's where I said the orchestra, all right. So I like to think that a doctor like myself, a dentist, who sees the medical side as well as the oral dental side, we and I liken it to the conductor of the orchestra the orchestra, the parts, the wind, the pipes, the drums, the bass, the, whatever the strings, whatever, all the different parts, if you will are all the different doctors, if you will, who are doctors, if you will, who are going to partake in making music. The patient is the one who is the music, and you either are going to have that harmony where everything just falls into place and that everything works well and you're healthy, all right or you have everybody throw something at the wall and expecting something to stick right. That's putting it pump up politely. So the goal is to get the bullseye the first time if you fail to plan to plan to fail, right, right. And so the goal now is someone like myself and we we talked about this is we got to figure out where you are exactly in this point in time. It didn't really matter so much anymore now, because you've had that surgery and that changes and has changed you forever. But where are you now? What are the building blocks that we can use now to move forward? Interject here for the parents and for those who are asking yeah, but this doesn't pertain to me. Well, we can work with children With the AFT systems.
19:50
Dr Nordstrom has come up with systems to work with neonates. You can do the tie releases. You can start as from the newborns on. The whole idea is to breathe properly. Once you breathe properly, as in, you have proper tongue position and then you have proper nasal breathing, then you set yourself up for success, right.
20:10
Unfortunately, with a modern diet and with the way that things are going nowadays, unfortunately things retract a lot and you don't have that room and you end up with disorders and you went through what you went through. Okay, so if we go ahead and we have that conductor I circled back now to the music all right, if you go ahead and you have a team, somebody's got to know what the right hand's doing. Somebody has to know what the left hand's doing, but together we make sure that we're all on board with the same ultimate goal, which would be to get you to breathe again properly. What I heard you say is that you went to see an ENT and they have their own wheelhouse, they have their own tools, they have their own tests, they have their own. We got to do this. This is it, this is my way, or the highway right I?
21:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
haven't actually gone to the ENT yet. I have a referral right because I'm like I want to go the right route before somebody starts telling me oh, you need this, this and this. I did consult with one dentist who said you need a CPAP, and I'm like you don't even know what you're talking about.
21:17 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
That's the weekend course.
21:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, that's the oh, I heard sleep apnea. I'm not a sleep dentist, I don't even deal with this stuff, but I've heard this is the best route to go. I don't want to hear, I've heard. I want to know what is good for me, because it's bio individuality. This is what I've been through. So I'm in this place. Where do I go to the ENT first? Do I go to the pulmonologist first? Do I go to a dentist who deals with, who is specializes in airway and TMJ? You know that's and sleep apnea, which obviously falls under that.
21:52 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So one of the things you need to be aware of is the American Dental Association does not recognize these as specialties, unfortunately. I think that will change my practice. I have an emphasis in treating sleep apnea, tmj disorders, head, neck, facial pain. So that is one thing that you can be aware of. The second thing is a lot of us who do this have had many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many hours of extra training. It's just not a weekend course.
22:26
I mean, I've been doing this for nearly 20 plus years to this intensity and it's a process I keep learning. I mean, I'm still going through a residency for pediatrics right now and it's a lot that I know, but now I'm learning to fine tune and I'm going. I can deep dive a little bit more for certain things that I have been able to do, because it's same old, same old. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, as we say in French. The more it changes, the more it's the same. So there's a lot of different things but, like you said, I like that bio individuality. So everybody's different but everybody's the same. It's just you can't use one cookie cutter technique, but we're all humans and that's where it's all connected.
23:10
So we're circling back to how it's all connected. And if you have somebody who understands how it's all connected, that's when they could guide the ENT to say hey, you know what? This is what I suspect I use the word very underlined, bold caps suspect. I suspect, for example, she has a nasal valve collapse. I suspect, for example, she has a deviated septum. I suspect she has sinus issues. I suspect that she has pharyngeal obstruction. Could you please verify for me? Could there be upper airway resistance syndrome? I suspect that she may be having obstructive events. You might even have central apneic events, we don't know. So that's where you get somebody who understands as a dentist. All right, cause we're the best ones, and this is what floors me and I'm just going to put something for hooah, hooah for my team, my team, all right, this is what we do all day long. We're in the mouth. We see this stuff day in, day out.
24:17
What bothers me is that they don't train dentists nowadays to read the signs of obstructive C-papnea and or airway disorders. That's going to change. That's all in the book, by the way. Every single sign you could think of is in the book. But I think that's what needs to be changed. It should be common sense that it's not drill, fill and build, it's actually determine what you see, that it's not normal.
24:43
So I would hear patients tell me entire lives they've had these tore eyes. They look like little mushrooms at the bottom of their jaws or one on the roof of their mouth, on their palate. Or my dentist told me that was normal. No normal for whom? All right, I digress. So, anyhow, what happens is if you have a team conductor, then the dentist who understands this, who is more versed in this knowledge, can go ahead and say okay, then this ENT, could you please help me accomplish X, y, z. If you have a sleep doctor, all right. You don't want to get lost in the rabbit hole of medicine, right, because that's the other thing too. You can very easily get lost in that rabbit hole, all right.
25:29
So, you want to stay with those of us, because your mouth, your head, your neck is this, is our wheelhouse. Ent is air, nose and throat. All right, sleep. They're the physicians. They're the ones that are going to. Yes, they prescribe the CPAP. Yes, they're the ones that are going to diagnose it. But at the end of the day it they're the ones they're going to diagnose it, but we're at the end of the day, it's still the dentist that's going to do the appliance for you.
25:50
one way or the other, it's going to be something in your mouth right right and I prefer to go that route it bugs me that now you have physicians who are doing oral appliances. It's like, okay, you won't let us diagnose something that we deal with, okay, yes, yes, there's the medical, the physical aspect, the insurance part, blah, blah, blah, blah, of sleep apnea. Yes, there's a lot of pathophysiology that needs to be dealt with by a physician. Get that, get that, but don't go make an oral appliance for my patient. You don't know what you're dealing with, you don't know how to make it, you don't know what position to do it and you certainly don't know how to put it into the way they breathe better, and you don't know how to check it and you don't know where you're putting that jaw joint. So, yeah, that that kind of bugs me a lot.
26:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Sorry, I think that's part of the reason why now share. This is an open space. If you want to drop an F bomb, you can. I don't mind.
26:41 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
I can say it in French, but I could say it in French.
26:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, right, you can French your way out of this. So I, my thing is and I've thought this, but from talking to you, from talking to others in the field that even though I've been given referrals, I've been holding off on filling those referrals because I'm like I think that's just a doctor telling me this is what's normal and this is how we normally protocol this. My gut tells me that it's somebody who deals with this face all the time and that moves into the next things like how do you find that sleep dentist? How do you find a dentist who is experienced or emphasizes work in that area and know that you're getting someone who's good and isn't just going to say, hey, we're going to, we'll get you fixed up with an orthodontist and now you're going to get a palate expander or now we're going to do the surgery over? Because that's a fear that I've run into as well as one that I have on my own.
27:43 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right, I wouldn't go there yet if I were you. Okay, just stop Whenever you hear surgery again, just let's think this over, all right. So let me give you some of my feedback too. Right, there was a sleep course, all right, and I thought, okay, cool, I'll go ahead and I'll go, I'll support the symptom. Nobody's talking about causes, and that bugs me to high end. And there was a children's neurologist in a very, very prestigious hospital Boston I think it is who said yes, said yes, I mean it's all fine and good. Because they said, oh, don't worry about it, you know. And then she said no, no, no, I think she has a point.
28:34
Yes, so the thing that is that, all right, if you go ahead, you think about all the systems that are shut down because you can't breathe. Right, the order appliance isn't going to fix it, the c-pap is definitely not going to fix it, because what's going to happen is the body's going to acclimatize or get used to that level of band-aiding. And then it's like okay, you know what it is, the little dutch boy with his finger came to mind with a dab. So you put one finger here and then you put one finger here, and then you put one finger here and then you put one finger here and you put one finger and then you're not gonna have enough fingers or toes and then the dam's gonna break. And it's exactly the same concept, because if you go ahead and you the the concept of an oral appliance okay to come back again and I'm showing the picture to mount moderate c, pap. Yeah, it's called a mandibular advancement device, or MAD for short, right, okay, well, what does that do? It brings the lower jaw forward. Why? Because the tongue is attached to the front of the lower jaw. So you bring the lower jaw forward. All right, so that's the mandibular advancement device. Well, how far are you going to be able to break the jaw out of socket? Eventually? No, because if you don't address the root cause, you're going to have inflammation.
29:55
So that airway that's already restricted, be it because of diet, because of environment, because of whatever. You have large tonsils which are supposed to be there as buckets to hold whatever pathogens or whatever bugs that are in the air or that you're eating, or whatever. They're the engines that are holding the foot down, if you will, the soles, whichever. They're the ones that protect you so things don't go to your lungs, but eventually they get overwhelmed, and that's when your airway is so closed up by these massive tonsils. And then again let's take them out. Surgery to remove tonsils. All right, did that too? All right.
30:34
So I know I'm jumping everywhere right now, but I'm trying to go by the anatomy. If you'll follow, there's a process to my reasoning here. So the dentist will say say okay, let's do a manageable advancement device for mild to moderate sleep apnea, but that's not treating the root cause. All right. The sleep doctor will say you need a CPAP because it's severe sleep apnea. But that's not also treating the root cause.
31:05
Because somewhere along the line, if you don't have a nasal what we could call a patent nasal passage or passageway to get air through your nose, all right then. And or if you're doing a CPAP to push air down your mouth which you should be breathing in your mouth anyhow then you're still not getting the air, the quality of air you need. As a sidekick, just so you know, when you breathe through your nose, you actually develop nitric oxide. It's a gas, all right that you develop. You create it. As a human, we create nitric oxide in our sinuses. When you don't nose breathe, you're not getting your nitric oxide, which means that your vessels are getting hotter faster, you age faster. All right, none of that's going to happen with a CPAP and none of that's going to happen with the appliance, because three months down the road there's just so much that you could advancement that you can do. There's just so much titration with a level of pressurization with a CPAP that you can do, and eventually you're back to square one.
32:10
Okay, well then now let's do orthognathic surgery to bring your jaws forward. And then that's when you have another issue, because now you're locked in. So let's tie back that in. With the anatomy, remember I showed you, and for those of you who can't see, the skull is not fixed. There's lots and lots and lots and lots of little sutures. That's why I was saying there's dozens and dozens and dozens of bones, but they're all connected, and the cranium, the housing of the cranium, but there's lots of them underneath, all right, under the skull, all right. So what happens is all these bones actually pulse. That's called the cranial sacral rhythm. All right, that's where cranial sacral therapy would be really good. That's where you unfortunately have issues because you have screws holding your face. Your facial plates are held together, right, so we're trying to go through all the systems and the scenarios here.
33:08
An ideal person who hasn't had surgery can have all these little bones changed. Because they're not fused together. They are not fused together. They are not fused together. What did you hear me say? They're not fused together, they are not fused together. So if anybody says that you cannot expand your palate because you're over nine run, it's not true. I expanded, I've done an arch expansion on an 83 year old all right.
33:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I actually had a conversation with a dentist who told me that women they're finding and tell me if what your thought is on this the palate of a woman actually is able to expand for much longer than we originally thought years wise like it, and maybe I'm saying this wrong, but she even had a palate expander in the top and she's in her 50s. So I'm curious, I mean, is that an approach to try? So can I guy it's a human period. Anyone can. Anyone. Okay.
34:11 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
A human can have. Now I don't know if there's going to be a sex differentiation for the progression of the of the treatment. The treatment I don't know, but any human can have their arches expanded, short of having a disorder of one sort or the other, but in general you can have the arches expanding because the bones are not fused. Right, it's not here, it's here. Let's talk about why you can develop a palatal expansion and growth. All right, this is a totally misunderstood concept. All right, remember we talked about the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose, and this is magnetic. So bear with me, that's why it was all all catawanka earlier on. So in here you have what we call the nasal passages and you have a thing called turbinates, right? So if you look at it, there's little windmills in here. So you have anterior, middle and posterior nasal passages too, and here you have what we call the sinus, the maxillary sinuses. Here you have the frontal sinuses, all right, okay.
35:14
So how arch expansion works? And this is why you do slow. Slow is good what you do. Remember this is magnetic, so it might be a little hard for me to do. You go ahead, you do a little bit. All right, you do a little bit and then you wait, then that goes ahead and creates bone. Then you do a little bit, then it creates bone, you do a little bit and it creates bone and so, slowly but surely, you've created the arch that is wider, because it happens in the middle. All right, if you go too fast, what happens is you end up having extrusion of the teeth, or the flaring of the teeth and or what we call the buckle plate perforations, which is what the orthodontist freaked out about. You're going to flare out the teeth because you're going too fast.
36:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, how long does something like that take normally? What is that process?
36:11 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
They do what the orthodontist usually do, what they call rapid palatal expansion. Slow is the best thing. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Guess what happens, unless you have a septal spur which acts like a handcuff to hold that nasal passage, that septum tied up to another bone on the side. If you don't have a septal spur, that deviated septum just lines right down. That's what happened with me and I was in my fifties I was over 55 when I did mine. If you go ahead and you do slowly, you can expand an arch. Now there's a school out there that says let's do it in a month and then we wait six months. I'd say okay. That to me sounds so wrong and this is my humble opinion, for each time I'm giving you anything. These are my humble opinions and what I've learned and what I've read and my interpretation of everything.
37:13
Okay, of course, but if you're going to go ahead and you're going to go like zip and then wait, go ahead and you're going to go like zip and then wait, all right. The big fallacy with that is you zipped and you waited six months and that space, in theory, is supposed to grow bone. Uh-uh, it fills up with collagen. That is why, when you go too fast and kids or whom on whom, no matter what age, if you go too fast, you end up with a ton of relapse. So, slow, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone.
37:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now you have success now, this is just one approach. Right, the palette expansion is just one approach okay, that's the transverse approach.
37:58 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So if you're doing this in 3d, you have to think your garage right, because you have width, you have depth and then you have length. Well, it's the same thing. This is the width. The transverse effect is the width. All right, now we have the sagittal aspect, which is from the side, so that's where two to for example, if I'm not mistaken that your issues came from, is that if you look at my profile and they said that this part of you was there, but this part of you was too far forward, so I'm going to exaggerate now, like that, right?
38:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's exactly what it was like, right.
38:38 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
It wasn't that this was too far forward. It can be, but in reality it's that this was underdeveloped. So that's the side view, or the sagittal view. Nine times out of 10, if you have an airway issue, it's because you're overclosed, and then you need height, and that's when we can go ahead and do height. Interestingly enough, oral appliances the same one that they advocate to go ahead and do the mandible advancement devices the same thing. There's two things that they do. When they're doing a sleep appliance, what are they? Protraction vertical, but they're doing the protraction with the lower jaw only and vertical. They're putting the special amount of vertical or the height into the appliances.
39:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Acrylic Now there's a lot of information that we're sharing with folks. I'm taking in a lot of information. I do want to mention real quick that Dr Stack has a new book that just came out, called Smile. It's all connected whole health through balance. I'm going to put a link on there in the podcast notes, rather to grab that book, because this is really something that was written for the everyday person to understand. It's not like reading a medical guide or anything like that.
39:56
You will be able to go to an upset or an issue that you might be confronted with, learn more about it because, as we were saying before, what gets measured gets managed. But also we have to be our own healthcare advocates and then find the right kind of people to support you, because obviously you can't fix the problem yourself, but you can support yourself in that. And also I know you have a children's book and that's Captain IFBI. I in that. And also I know you have a children's book and that's Captain IFBI. I love that Right encouraging good oral hygiene habits, which, by the way, that ties in with the download that you're offering as well, which is the dental protocol checklist, and I love that. We're going to put all that in the podcast notes so that folks that are tuning in or if they're watching on YouTube because you know you're showing us some fun stuff on visual they'll have the option to either listen to this anywhere we have podcasts and also on YouTube.
40:46
But, on that note, if you feel that this podcast episode with Dr Claire Staggs inspiring you anyway, touches you anyway, if you know anyone who might be confronted with any of these upsets whether it's sleep apnea, whether it is TMJ or any kind of upset that you might be dealing with, the dental side of your life, or even breathing this is something you can pass along to somebody, share it, let them have the knowledge and make a decision where they want to go next, because we definitely are sharing some really good information here and I really appreciate it.
41:18
Dr Sags, I know we're talking a lot about my upset, but I know there are other people out there that are dealing with the sleep issues, the sleep apnea, the breathing, the grinding, the bruxing, and wanting to change the holistic approach to dentistry. You're just a normal person, sweetie. I'm just like everybody else. I know I am, and it's one of the reasons why I do this show, because many of the things that I'm facing or have seen with clients is something I want to talk about so that I can make this a vessel for others to get answers or at least find something that they could take away from this and hopefully make a choice that helps them become a happy and healthy grownup, you know.
42:03 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So let's talk about the book. This book was written. It's taken me 10 years to get it out here. All right, this book was written for the average lay person. It's a conversation from one mom to all the other moms who have asked me questions.
42:21
All these years I've been practicing. I graduated in 1982. So I've been at this for a long time. I came to this country in 87. So I was not of American training per se, so I have had different training. I'm also very outside the box thinker and I like to ask why? So why do you want me to do it this way? Give me a reason why I should do it that way.
42:47
So the whole idea was to understand that, yes, why are these patients getting better? Why is there cacophony? Why is there not harmony? Why do they have all these issues all the time that they haven't had resolution for and that I have not been able to finger point. That's when I went down my training what's going on? What's going on, what's going on.
43:10
So the book's goal is to go ahead and to change the demand. Because my what? To educate the demand, if you will, because the more people are educated in this is the more they'll understand what's actually going on. It's for you to be your own advocate in your own choices. Just like Hilary at 15 did not know any better or any know what to do or not not to do, her mom or parents didn't know, because they followed their, the advice of their physicians, which is okay, don't get me wrong. You know, but why don't you find out? If you go ahead and you're playing a game of poker, wouldn't it be nice to know your hand instead of playing blind? You know what I mean.
43:58
So this, this book, has the entire deck in it. This is what I'm trying to say. It's written with you for everything, everything that Hilary and I have talked about, and I think one if you have the book, you will see anything about airway, you'll see about joints, you'll see about teeth, you'll see about muscles, you'll see about nerves, how it used to be, how it is and what the connections are structural, chemical, mechanical, functional, emotional, spiritual, because we're all one. And then in the future, where I think dentistry should and could be. But I think and I know that if we change the demand, the supply will have to change, because the more the moms and the dads and all of us understand how this is connected. They're going to have to teach doctors how to connect the dots too. So that was the goal of this book is to change the way dentistry is perceived and experienced in the world and then change the world for a healthier, better place people to be healthy so they don't have to suffer like a Hilary.
45:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I so needed. I wish my parents had this back in the 80s when I had this surgery, even though it was different back then. We've progressed, we've gotten better, we're more knowledgeable, we have more tools available to us and science and approaches, but it's here now and if my what is the saying? Someday your story can be somebody else's survival guide. I use that one a lot. I know that's Brene Brown.
45:26 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
That's a good one, yeah.
45:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and I'm hoping that this next stage of my own journey is much less invasive and more productive. It's finding ways. So having conversations with doctors like yourself, people who practice more of a holistic and whole body approach and aren't really running right to surgeries and appliances and everything that might not be the best plan, you know. It's constructing the plan building the house and realizing what size garage is really going to fit and what kind of cars do you have for that garage.
46:03 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right, because there's different appliances too, so there's different arrows in your quiver, because you want to shoot for the bullseye every time, right, and that's that's where I did all that additional training. It's like, okay, okay, so we have a joint issue. Well, well, let's deal with a joint, but then you can't disconnect the tongue and the space that the tongue holds. And then, okay, so now I do tie releases. So, and not everybody's going to practice the way that I practice this.
46:33
This is my passion, though, and you talked about your survival journey. My daughter fell and hit her chin when she was three and a half, and that's where she hit her chin, which automatically put her jaw joints up and back, got her disc displaced. So here I am searching for answers back in 2003, 2004. And that's where I ended up. So, yes, I was doing the chemical aspect, where we were mercury free, we were doing all the nutrition, everything. But then it's like, how do I fix my child, how do I get her to not be in pain too? And so that's where it's like, okay, let's do this, let's figure out how we can make this happen. And so that was my journey to go ahead and to put that together for all the other parents who would have these questions.
47:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and interestingly enough, here you are, a dentist, being confronted with something that you think, oh, I have the answers because I'm a dentist At least it happened to a dentist's daughter and you're looking for the approaches that are going to help her heal and live her best life the best way possible.
47:39 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So you know, it makes me laugh too. I guess I'm getting very spicy today. I like spicy, dr Staggs Very spicy. So I remember I had this 83,. He's 90-something now, but he was clearly apneic. I mean his lips were blue, all right, his he had no airway, really, really bad. And so I told, I told him you know why don't you do a sleep screening? No, no, no, my doctor blah, blah, blah. So I went ahead and I said okay, ask your doctor to go ahead and send you to lab and have a sleep test. So he goes ahead and he tells his physician that and his physician says what does she know? She's just a dentist, yeah.
48:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye. I wish we could all just get along and work together. So anyhow, that's my two cents again.
48:38 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So don't read a book by its cover and look for somebody who understands how it's all connected and there's going to be more of us. There are more of us, it's just you don't know where to find them.
48:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So what I want to do real quick in closing, I usually do a game with all of my guests, and what I've been doing is I pull you're going to have a little fun and what I've been doing is I pull you're going to have a little fun. This is what we do here. Not everything's so serious. I'm going to throw out a word, something you said today, and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind. Just a quick word association game.
49:08
I already want to say happy. Say happy as much as you want. But if I say the word holistic, what's the first word that comes to mind? Body, jaw, oh God, pain, palate, growth, airway, life, dentist, happy.
49:28 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Smile, beautiful Happy.
49:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Beautiful. Love that. I love that you focus on the word happy. Just be your own healthcare advocate. You know we don't, we don't have to throw out a name. There are a number of things out there that are good and there are a number of things out there that are not so good, and you have to be your own healthcare advocate to make that choice.
49:47 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
And things can work different strokes for different folks. I mean it could be the best thing, anything could be the best thing for anybody. It's just that sometimes, when you don't know any different, you wish that had you known, had I known. Had I known, had I known I wouldn't have done it this way that's kind of where I am.
50:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I wish I knew at 15. So I'm hoping that what you shared, I know we'll have more conversations because I'm on a route where I'm going to be looking for approaches uh, because unfortunately we're not in the same area, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't hop a flight to come down to Florida, by the way, no, you still can. I can, I can, but I'm gonna. I know you have a tight schedule, a lot of people to talk to, everybody is. You're in high demand, dr Stagg, and for good reason, and I'm just so grateful to have you here.
50:35 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
I am eternally grateful to you interviewers, because you have platforms that you can spread the word to the world, because you're the ones, basically, that are going to change. I'm just, I'm just flotsam on the ripple of the of the thing you know. I'm just like, hey, go this way, go this way, go this way.
50:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're all in it together as you said, it's all connected, we're all connected. So if we can do anything to help others, that's what we're here for and I'm just so grateful for you. Thank you so much. Thank you too.
51:06 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
And thank you for having me. And so, on a one little note, I was like this is my last little saying in the book, which has lots of little life lessons. My one is that you're not a drop in the ocean, you're the entire ocean in a drop. So blessings, Hilhillary, I love you. Thank you so much.
51:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love you too. Thank you for being part of the ripple.
51:28 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Thank you.
51:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I know we unpacked a lot, I know there's a lot going on here with Dr Stagg, but for good reason and we are not done. Next, I want you to grab a copy of Dr Stagg's book Smile it's all connected whole health through balance, plus her children's book that she has Captain IFBI, as well as her checklist to download for daily dental protocol. All of this is in the podcast notes and, if anything resonated with you that we shared here on the show, if you were touched, moved and inspired by our conversation, if you have more questions, dr Stagg is actually holding a Q&A online on Wednesday, july 17th, at 7 pm Eastern time. It's a really great chance to connect with her again, maybe follow up on some of the things we talked about, or if you have your own questions, and get to the root of your dental journey no pun intended with that one and you can get some more knowledge, because knowledge is power. Right, what gets measured gets managed. So be your own healthcare advocate.
52:30
First, and you know I share a lot about my havening journey, how it has been a big part of my chronic pain. My TMJ and I want to offer you the opportunity to try Havening and see if it works for you. This is a really wonderful way to overcome fears. If you have a fear of going to the dentist or the doctor or even managing chronic pain, or maybe you just wanted to self-soothe, to self-regulate, for daily self-care, it's a wonderful tool to put in your toolbox and I'd be happy to have a conversation with you and see if it's right for you. A link to connect with me is also in the podcast notes.
53:07
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2MarketMedia with music by Lipo Redding, and I know you tune in week after week because you want answers, you want to find ways to be a happy and healthy grownup, and I'm here for you and I just want you to know that those traumas that you're turning into triumphs, they're happening, they're in motion and I am proud of you. I believe in you, I love you and I will see you soon. Be well.
When it comes to healing the body and mind, there’s an unspoken language. It requires understanding the deeper signals our bodies send. The language that’s often overlooked. Until now.
On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, nervous system medicine practitioner, Kardin Rabin, shares his own journey through chronic back pain that left this body worker looking for ways to transcend and transform. What he found were synchronicities that not only opened the door of pain to purpose, but lead him on a journey to help himself and others regulate an often dysregulated nervous system. Discover the Secret Language of the Body with actionable steps to help you Heal through Awareness, Interruption and Redesign. And find out how a chance meeting with Bessel van Der Kolk at a coffee shop changed his life. Plus, an offering of tools and support that puts true healing within reach.
Get the Heal Program with the HIListically Speaking Discount! Holistic Nervous System Regulation 10-Week Course https://programs.somiainternational.com/a/2147972874/ZsUJkWab
Want to test the waters first? Get the first module FREE. https://programs.somiainternational.com/heal-foundations/?el=IGHilaryPodcast
Grab a copy of “The Secret Language of the Body: Regulate Your Nervous System, Heal Your Body, Free Your Mind” Hardcover: https://amzn.to/4bUvGiV (Amazon) Audiobook: https://amzn.to/4ehuYxY (Amazon) Kindle: https://amzn.to/4b1zWfw (Amazon)
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS 00:00 Intro 6:51 Opioids, Grief and generational pain 11:51 Chronic Pain and Trauma17:20 Emotions and Pain Relationship21:10 Exploring Trauma and Healing Through Books 22:35 Bessel van der Kolk in a coffee shop24:42 The Secret Language of the Body 32:42 HEAL and SOMIA Program49:49 Serendipitous Encounters 53:44 Rapid Fire Game59:00 Conversation closing thoughts01:03:27 Hilary close and information
PREFER TO WATCH THIS EPISODE ON YOUTUBE? Subscribe https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
OTHER BOOKS MENTIONEDThe Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van Der Kolk, MDhttps://amzn.to/4ccbU28 (Amazon)
Healing Back Pain by John Sarnos, MDhttps://amzn.to/4bZdK78 (Amazon)
CONNECT WITH KARDENhttps://somiainternational.com https://www.instagram.com/kardenrabin https://www.instagram.com/somiainternational
HEALING IN YOUR HANDS. HAVENING WITH HILARY https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com
TRANSCRIPT
Full transcript at https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
00:05 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders, absolutely requires a non-verbal approach through the unspoken language of the body.
00:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Your nervous system needs you and I wish I knew this Correction correction. I wish I understood this is what I mean when I was struggling with my own chronic pain, when I had my jaw surgery, when I was on the healing journey because, let me tell you, at 15, it was a doozy and every year following that, I just did not have the tools right. And as we get older, we experience more of these snap crackle pops in our body. It happens, it's life right.
00:49
But here's the deal that pain in your body, that trauma that is making you want to run for cover because you don't feel safe. It's actually a signal. It's a signal, it's a call and you're hearing it and yeah, you've done the work. I get it. That's why you check in on this podcast week after week. You've done the work and you're like why am I not healing? Why am I feeling this way? Well, you've come to the right place, because it's all about finding the right support and people that will guide you on that journey, Like my friend, nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin. What's up, my friend, it is so good to have you here.
01:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Hi Hilary.
01:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We talk so much before we press record and every time we have a conversation it's like I feel like we're just two kids in high school hanging out, chilling and just having a good time, because really, I mean, first of all, we get pretty giddy talking about the nervous system together, so we're totally geeking out. But, there's a reason for it. We're here on this planet to do something to help people, right?
01:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, to just vibe so well with someone who speaks your language and who helps you get it out there.
01:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and you're doing that. You're doing that as co-founder of SOMIA, the HEAL program that you have Now, this new, incredible, unbelievable book that is just paving the way. That's the secret language of the body. Yes, please show that. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to have a link to that in the podcast notes for all you folks. And look good, golly, miss Molly, I'm so glad you're here because we need you and we need what you're doing. So thanks again for being here.
02:23 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Thanks for having me.
02:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You have your own story. I think a lot of people like to know what brings you to the kind of work that you do, especially when you're dealing with the nervous system, the brain, the mind, anything like that, or just our body in general. And there's such a good story behind you. And listen those of you turning in. Carter and I haven't known each other forever. In fact, we have a newer friendship. But I love that because you align with people. We met at the Heal the Healer event conference two-day event and I was just like, oh my gosh, he's my people and he's going to be yours too. But I want you to share your story so people truly understand how you got into this work.
03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, okay, can truly understand how you got into this work. Yeah, okay, can I do it like memento style? Maybe it won't be in like sequential order, but we'll bop around a little bit. Yeah, okay. So I originally thought my story started with my own debilitating chronic back pain, because that is kind of the nice starting place in terms of starting around the age of 22,. I am 39 now.
03:26
I began having bad bouts of low back pain, which was kind of humbling and humiliating for someone who was a very well-trained body worker who was making his living getting other people out of pain, and for the next 10 years or more, maybe more like 12 years I worshipped at the throne of basically structure and function. So if I could just get someone's body aligned the right way and moving the right way, really clean, really perfect, yada, yada, yada either my clients or myself that would solve the pain, because that's how I was taught. That would solve the pain because that's how I was taught. I was taught basically and by the way I'm going to be a real a-hole right here that we're basically some I don't know steampunk robot thing from 1642 that has no brain or software or just some mechanism and as long as it's lubed up and put together rightly, it will work correctly. And it turns out that, although there's some truth to that, it's also bullshit. We're not a mechanism first, we're a nervous system first. We are a human with feelings and emotions and a brain and, moreover and I didn't know this at the time, because this is not what I had been taught the only organ in your body, the only organ in your body responsible for pain at all times, is your brain and your nervous system. That's it. I'll say that again. The only organ in your body at all times that's responsible for whether you have pain or not is your brain and your nervous system. And it makes errors right, like we've all, for example, had something brush our leg and go ow right, and we look down and it was just this, like maybe it was a thorn right, it wasn't a really big deal. There'll be other times where we'll get like burned or something while we're busy doing something and we won't even notice how badly we got burned. We'll see that we have some wound later on, right. Also, people will often be in like athletic events. They'll sprain an ankle. It'll be swollen as heck. They won't even notice it till the evening. The brain is making choices and decisions about pain all the time, and we're going to get a lot more into that, guys.
05:46
But essentially here I was trying to fix things mechanically and functionally for myself and my clients, sometimes being successful and sometimes not. And I went on like this for 10 or 12 years and each time my quote unquote back would go out, I would be bedridden, often for days out. I would be bedridden, often for days. I would have electrical storms of pain in my groin and my abdomen. I would have bilateral shooting pains like ice picks down into my calves, and it was threatening my livelihood, my life. I was no longer wanting to go out and do things, social things. I couldn't go on trips. My entire life started being defined by managing my incessant pain and again, it was not progressing with any of these conventional techniques Osteopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, body work, you name it. Uh, ayahuasca ceremonies, um and uh. I was.
06:51
This is where we'll go in the kind of memento stuff. I realized that I was marching down the same path towards drugs and surgery that took my mother from me when I was 21. That took my mother from me when I was 21. So my mom had had a back injury in her early 30s and she had gotten a double spinal fusion, which is a type of surgery where they fused L2, l3 and L4 in her back, and but even though she had it repaired, it was still hurting her and the next 20 years of her life was organized around managing this pain. And this was the mid 80s and 90s. And, Hilary, I'll give you three guesses. It begins with O and ends with opioids. What was the standard of care for my mother during that time Opioids.
07:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, opioids, I can't even imagine.
07:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
My mother was prescribed 12 Percocets a day. That'd kill a horse, folks, it'd kill a horse. Yeah, 12 Percocets a day Went from specialist to specialist, surgeon to surgeon and year after year it was just those opioids, opioids. We're not going to go into my trauma and stuff right now, but growing up with a mother who was managing her own pain and was on 12 percocets a day, that I thought was normal. Like didn't everyone's mom just pop a dozen pills a day? Long story short is that a body can't do that forever, and so my mom died at 54 years old, when I was 21, of basically complications of long-term opioid use. Here I was, 12 years later, having done everything in my power by becoming healthy and a body worker and fit to avoid her fate, and I was marching towards it myself.
08:48 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Our ancestral trauma. I mean, that's something I'm sure you deal with a lot too in the work that you do. But it's so much about us wanting to stop that ancestral trauma and it's a push-pull theory, right, Like we're saying I'm stopping it now, I'm not getting on that track, and we wind up falling into that if we're not too careful, you know, get the wake up call Well it was also total bypass, right.
09:11 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, it was no coincidence that my embodied pain, my symptom presentation due to my repression of my stress and trauma and dysregulation presented like my mother's right. So I just want to say here that genes are not everything, folks, when it comes to chronic illness Like yes, they might say you have a congenital or a family predisposition to rheumatoid arthritis or back pain or depression. And it's like yes, and you actually have nervous system modeling from generation to generation to generation. So, like when we talk about nurture versus nature, you know, when a child has chronic pain modeled to him for his entire childhood, then when his symptom presentation comes up, brains are social organs and they're often going to manifest their dysfunction precisely the way they were modeled to. So I got lucky, and the way I got lucky was in the midst of my chronic pain and hypocrisy. I was teaching anatomy and physiology to a yoga teacher training down on long island uh, basically laying on my back with my legs up the wall during every teaching segment because of how much misery I was in.
10:28
And in the home of the owner of the studio there was John Sarno's healing back pain.
10:36
And if your audience has never heard of John Sarno. He was an MD in New York City. He was a pioneer in this field. He really didn't know jack about trauma or modern neuroscience, but he was a great investigator and deductor and what he saw was that he'd have patient after patient come into his office and that the orthopedic and mechanical models or functional models that tried to explain their pain. He was like this is all bullshit and it's inconsistent and what's going on here should not be causing this person's hip or low back to be in such agony, but instead what he consistently saw were personality types, specifically in his case of repression, and type A perfectionism, which led to this consistent presentation of embodied pain. And then he educated his clients about what was going on in their mind body and then sometimes referred them to therapy and they got these miraculous improvements in their pain because this was the guy who said no, what's going on here is with their brain and their emotions, not with some inflammatory response in their low back or herniated disc.
11:51
And so I found, his book found me, and for the first time in five years I had a significant of almost an 80% improvement in my pain from just reading his book.
12:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Which book was that?
12:06 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This was Healing Back Pain by John Sarno.
12:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Grab that book, grab your book.
12:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Exactly, and even though this thing was book, the first edition of this one was 1991. And again, we've progressed quite a bit from what John was talking about, because he was looking at this stuff with the lens. He was trained in the 30s, but the point is it's still a valuable book. This book saved my life and initiated me into this entire space of helping people heal chronic pain, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraines, ibs this constellation, this galaxy of mind-body disorders that have their root in trauma, dysregulated nervous system and something we can talk more about, which is conditioned responses. And I guess there's a lot more to my story. But that's how I got here, hilary.
12:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're glad you're here because I feel like everything we go through and a big part of this podcast is the trauma to triumphs right, and if we're using our triumphs well, we're here to share with others how to take care of themselves. You know it's it's. It's like the your, your upset could be somebody else's survival guide. You know what you went through, so it sucks that we have to go through some of this stuff, but we learn from each other, you know. So your story could be someone else's survival guide and is. And then the work that you're doing is continuing to help other people not just survive but live well.
13:36
And I think, going back to what you said just a few minutes ago, learning that you could be doing all the trauma healing in the world. You can be doing everything to get your symptoms in alignment deal with your IBS, deal with your migraines, autoimmune problems but again, why do you want to deal with it? How do you get unstuck? And I think that's something I would like for us to talk about is like, how do you move beyond managing these things and actually find the healing? Because we hear the word manage a lot. Let's befriend it, let's manage it. People are just like I'm freaking tired of feeling the migraine and the pulsating in the back of my head or my stomach being in knots, and I'm eating all the anti-inflammatory foods out. Okay, it's more than that. So how do we take it to the next level?
14:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yes, right, because I like to say that we come to this work to repair but we stay with it to transcend Right. So I think we're using very similar language, right.
14:34
So nervous system trauma very similar language, right. So nervous system distress, trauma, chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation. That's like this. Through line between them, they're sort of what make the soil ripe for symptoms ranging from chronic pain to cfs to uh, to gut issues, to autoimmune issues, um, but, like I said, they make it ripe.
14:57
So if your nervous system is basically in survival mode which is what trauma and chronic stress do to it we're all very familiar with when we're stressed out, when we're at our limit, the way we snap right, we like maybe snap at our kids, snap at our spouse, lose it at work. We're all very clear. Most of us can see our behavioral dysregulation. We might not be able to do something about it, but we see it. I am 100% literal here when I say your immune system, your nervous system, your cellular response is doing the same fucking thing in your body. Okay, so when you're not stressed out and the annoying person comes by, you're able to deal with it, but when you're stressed out, you snap at them. When you're stressed out and dysregulated and gluten comes through your belly, you snap because you can't deal with it, Because the entire system is at that point outside its window of tolerance outside of its capacity to absorb more. So what is basically a benign irritant, again, unless you have celiac. But like gluten, like environmental allergens, like dairy, like all these foods your body has been, by the way, become sensitized to and your own fear is driving it. These symptoms that present themselves largely have to do with your physiology responding in a completely dysregulated and hyperbolic way, in the same way that you're behaviorally responding hyperbolic and dysregulated to relations. There is no difference. Your mind, your body, your relationships and your cellular experience don't differentiate folks. So that's number one. That's the first part of what's driving symptoms, and so learning how to recondition your body, your nervous system, your immune system, your pain response system to have more regulated responses to internal stimuli is a parallel but separate skill set than learning how not to explode at your husband or snap at your kids and regulate in real time, relationally.
17:20
I want to say one other thing is that what tends to happen is conditioned responses. So my low back pain actually began again. The gun was kind of loaded by my mother's modeling. But I started CrossFit when I was 25. And I did it because I wanted to get strong and they and I you know CrossFit's freaking hard. I have this background of. I was a sickly asthmatic child and I ended up using shame and self-criticism in my teens to make myself fit because I was so embarrassed and again ashamed of my own weakness. So fitness was already associated with feelings of shame and pushing so hard and so much self-criticism to drive me forward. Now, at 25, I go into CrossFit.
18:14
They subject me to some ridiculously hard and inappropriate workout of deadlifts right, by the way, but this is what everyone needs to understand. I got an injury doing that, but the injury happened in parallel with a huge amount of shame and fear and pressure. The body learns a conditioned response. You think that what you see is when you go back to deadlift a few months later oh, this hurt my back again. Deadlifts hurt my back.
18:48
Actually, what then happens is that any time your body starts to feel intense feelings of shame or intense feelings of pressure, those emotions became part of the conditioned response that create pain symptom.
19:02
So you're looking at activities, but the special sauce of nervous system dysregulation and getting out of symptoms is to look at what emotional state your nervous system is in when you're experiencing symptoms, because it's that emotional state that's become associated with the symptom. So, instead of Pavlov ringing his bell to make the dog salivate, all those dogs might have to do now is feel shame and they'll salivate. So again, instead of the deadlift, making my low back hurt, a situation of having a lot of deadlines and maybe disappointing my boss, and feeling pressure and shame, holy shit, my back is hurting or my migraine started or my gut issue got worse. So I just threw a lot at you, Hilary. But where I'm getting at is that when we're dysregulated, our internal physiology has the same dysregulated responses inside our system as we have relationally outside our system to other people. And, moreover, chronic symptoms are the result of conditioned responses happening between emotional states and symptoms.
20:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's so important for us to know this and I'm glad you went into this. I think you gave a lot of different scenarios and examples If someone's coming to this for the first time and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa information overload. That's why we're here, because your book and I want to get into this again, the book that's been released is the secret language of the body regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to actually add that into the listen notes so you can grab it. But also for some of us who have maybe done a little more work maybe we're a little further on and maybe not you might've just heard of another book similar to which is the Body Keeps the Score right. That's Levander Colt's book, who you have a direct relationship with as his body worker, by the way. I mean just working with one of the most famous people that deal with the nervous system and regulation. Can we talk about that a little bit, because I think that's really important, even how that even happened, that synergy right there.
21:10 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah. So, similarly to how I said, I got really fortunate, really blessed, really lucky to stumble into John Sarno's book right when I was on the precipice of having surgery. That book threw me into learning so much more about the mind, about the body, which took me into repressed emotions, which then eventually took me into trauma and somatic experiencing. Into trauma and somatic experiencing, I start exploring this world of basically how stress and trauma create physiological issues and, of course, I eventually stumble into Bessel's book. I keep all of these really close by.
21:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, you got like a library sitting right next to you.
21:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Right there, right there. They're all always here. And so Bessel's book is remarkable, because if you've read it, it has that gift of you being like, oh my God, this explains my suffering.
22:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is me right.
22:02 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This is me. I see now how my trauma, or my neglect, has created this and that and the science that he brings into it, the understanding that he brings into it into it. The understanding that he brings into it. And he also goes on further to show how, for example, people who have experienced traumas that their own immune system has higher markers for autoimmune processes, right Like trauma has caused that immune system to attack its own body more often.
22:35
It's like it's stitched or connected so many dots and there's something beautiful and special when a book makes you feel seen, and so I read his book and it's part of this collection of books that I'd say Bessel, Peter Levine, who wrote Waking the Tiger, and he's the founder of Somatic Experiencing, Gabor Mate when the Body, body says no, and many other ways. That's stitching together this science and art of what's going on here, of how so many of us are sick from trauma, nervous system dysregulation and then Hilary. It had to be less than six weeks after reading his book. I'm sitting in my local coffee shop, Six Depot, here in West Stockbridge.
23:16
I live in the Berkshires shout out yeah, holla, right, go get some cold brew and this dude walks in and I don't know what made me look up or glance at him or hear his voice and I was like, did Bessel van der Kolk just walk into my coffee shop? And I never do this? And I was so embarrassed but I, like, I went up and fan boyed right and I was like, um, I simply said, you know, Hi. Are you Bessel van der Kolk? And he goes, yes, and I go. Well, I just needed to tell you I recently read your book and it was revelatory and I'm just so grateful to you and for your work. And, uh, you, you know, thank you, and he goes. Oh well, you know, thank you for letting me know. I'm really glad about that. And his wife is next to him and she goes who are you?
24:05
And I go. Oh, I'm Karden and I'm a body worker and I have a clinic here in town and she goes. Well, we've just recently relocated out here to the Berkshires. We've been looking for a new body worker here because they had moved from Boston and I know like what Just happened.
24:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And.
24:27 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I know what it was like, what just happened, who orchestrated this? Am I about to get punked or something Right? And you know, the rest is history. Within a couple weeks they came into the clinic, we hit it off and we're dear friends. I've been seeing Bessel now as a client for five, six years and he's obviously become a dear mentor and he was instrumental in supporting me during the process of writing the Secret Language of the Body and that's how Bessel and I know each other. But also the reason why Bessel was so supportive of this book is that he wrote a book called the Body Keeps the Score that this process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders absolutely requires a nonverbal approach through the unspoken language of the body. And that's why our book is called the Secret Language of the Body.
25:33
Because if you're like, wait, did Karden just say that my emotional state has to do with my low back pain or my migraines or my IBS? What the hell is he talking about? It's like that fish who's in water. You ask a fish how's the water Like? What are you talking about? Right, they don't know they're in water.
25:48
It takes training to get out of your head, out of your endless cognitive loop and actually tune in to the sensations, emotions, experience and information that come from your autonomic nervous system in your body. And that's what we teach people. We teach people to become aware of this universe of activity going on just below their chin. And, as you can become aware of that secret language, it's like being able to. It's like people are speaking Italian around me. Oh my God, I can't believe people are speaking Italian around me. And then, once you can speak it, once you can start hearing it, you're like oh my God, I just learned a couple words of Italian. Now I can ask where the bathroom is, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right. You can actually start navigating a foreign country when you have the language. Well, you can start navigating, influencing and mastering the foreign language of your body once you start speaking it I love how you put that.
26:48 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is such a brilliant way of thinking about it that it's it's like, um, emerging into the culture, right. So emerge into the culture of your own body. Emerge into the culture of your own body, right. Learn the language of your body. That's brilliant. That's a really great way of putting it. How does this book differ from Bessel's book? Because Bessel's book is not very layman, it's very scientific and it is such a good book. But how is yours different some years later? But how is yours?
27:15 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
different some years later. Bessel's book is extraordinarily, like I said, relevatory. And then he does review five very powerful treatment approaches that you can try to do with a therapist, like EMDR, internal family systems, neurofeedback. But ultimately the book is not a manual on how you can begin healing yourself. It has changed the course of the world, and again it then refers you to things you could do.
27:47
But for those who want to read that book and like me and probably like you, Hilary, like, instantly hit it, like, how do I start healing this now? Right, that's what our book does. So our book has almost 100 practices in it and the entire manuscript is organized around a process that we call AIR, and the AIR approach stands for awareness, interruption and redesign. Right, you have to become aware of the conversation that's happening in your body. Right, that's the first thing. If you can't hear it, if you don't even know Italian is being spoken around you, you're SOL. All right, now you're listening. Right, but how do you influence? Well, you have to be able to start speaking it and you have to start interrupting it, because your body is a pattern recognition and habit repetition. Pattern recognition and habit repetition machine. It does not change by itself, it just repeats its old, tried and true patterns, even if those patterns are destroying your life and your health. So you have to learn how to interrupt and go. Yo, shut up. You must stop doing this for a minute. Can we have a conversation, please?
29:06
And so our book starts with letting you hear the language. That's number one. Number two is a whole variety of techniques, from top-down cognitive behavioral techniques to bottom-up polyvagal techniques that allow you to interrupt the dysregulated conversation. And then the redesign component is basically even trauma, as sacred and meaningful as it is, is a constellation of shitty habits built on trying to help you survive, and you have to redesign those habits. And so that's the third step is redesign to create new neural pathways, new responses, and so that's the big difference between the body keeps the score and the secret language of the body. The body keeps the score, blows your mind with like the world is round, right, and then the secret language of the body says and this is how you build a sailboat and how to navigate it.
30:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it and the fact that there are so many different approaches and techniques that you're sharing. And look, before I came into the work of Hhavening
30:09
techniques, I had no idea what it was. I'm like what is this Hhavening thing? It's learning about something new. See if it works for you. There might be 100 ideas in there of what you can do, but choose what works for you. It doesn't mean you have to implement 100 of them. Find the ones that work for you, cherry, pick and choose what works for you, because it's all bio individuality. So, again, we're going to share that book. We'll share them all.
30:33
But I really want to focus on your book because it's now, it's present, it's current, it's new, and with new thoughts come new possibilities, and that's the secret language of the body Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. And if you think that this episode will touch, move and inspire somebody and someone's like oh my gosh, not only am I going through this, somebody else is, pay this forward, pass this conversation along, leave a rating review. It lets people know that this episode exists. With Karden, we're going to certainly have more conversations. I do not doubt that Karden and also you are giving away the first module of your online nervous system program HEAL, for free. Hello people, Grab it now.
31:18
That's all I'm saying Grab it now. Is HEAL, an acronym.
31:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
No, heal's not an acronym. It's what we want to do. We want to heal folks and you know I wanted to call it CURE. We ended up calling it HEAL. But as you said at the beginning of this program, Hilary, jen and I, we do not have a program built on managing symptoms F that we do not have a program built on managing symptoms f that we have a program built on healing symptoms like gone, bring it, I'm serious bring it like gone, so and that, when and that if and when, because part of healing especially when your nervous system's regulation is not like always being perfect, right, that's not how life works.
31:57
But if you do have a dip and you do like, oh, my low back's coming down or my belly's coming back a little bit, you know exactly what to do. You know exactly why you take that sacred symptom, as we often call it, because it's a messenger saying up, up, up, up up. You are moving into that dysregulated zone again. Maybe you've made some life choices that aren't quite right, maybe survival parts of yourself from the past have reestablished control and the progress you made has been diminished. So your symptoms, not only do they mostly go, they go away, but when they do arise, they are this powerful signal that says, oh course, correct, we're doing the things that we're not supposed to do for ourselves. So yeah, and so it's called Heal Foundations. You can go to somiainternational dot com. That's one place you can find Heal Foundations, also at Karden Rabin, following me on Instagram and going to my link tree.
32:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's where all?
32:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
the good stuff is, but you can learn how to dive right into this immediately.
32:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're going to share all of that in the list notes of the podcast because people need to know that they can get the book, they can get the programs, they get the free, free, that course, the first part of the course, just so they can see if this is right for them. Right, but I mean, giving it a shot is better than not doing it at all, right, so we're going to share all of that. I'm curious. Amen, amen to that. So, mia, speaking Italian, the moment you were talking about learning about a different language in the body, it brought me back to when I first asked you how do you say the name of your course?
33:34 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
And you're like, so me like the Italian word, so Mia yeah, like it makes me wanna go into into the song.
33:40
So can we talk about that for a minute, cause we haven't even touched on that yet of the impact of the course, of the HEAL program, and SOMIA is what holds it all together. And SOMIA is an international nervous system and somatics platform that is designed to teach anyone how to master, to really understand, to become intimately connected, to influence and transform their own mind, body and nervous system, and not just through a collection of practices but through a profound understanding and application of principle. Because mastery isn't monkey see monkey do. Mastery isn't just being really good at the vagus techniques or really good at the internal family systems or parts work process. It's beyond that. It's understanding how the system works so that you are so kind of intimately aware that you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I know what. I, I need this right now. Like you were saying, Hilary, I don't need a hundred techniques, this is the one that's appropriate right now. So that''s what Somia exists for to educate the world about through the means of the course and our other offerings.
35:07
And then SOMIA community is called the Healing Collective.
35:11
So inside the course itself we have these absolutely wonderful mentors, and all of our mentors came to our program, came to work with Jen and I when they were bed bound with illness, with a symptom list that was terrifyingly long, from CFS to post-viral syndromes, to ectopic heartbeats, to mast cell activation system.
35:37
These folks were in dire straits and they used nervous system regulation in our program to get their lives back. And, as you know, Hilary, often when you've found something that transforms your life to such a degree, it becomes your calling to pay it forward right, and so our healing collective is held by those mentors, and we have online forums of fellow self healers who are on the path just like you. There are Q&As with the mentors that help you each step of the way through the healing process, through the practices, through mastering the understanding of how you work, and then, of course, jen and I are present as well. So Mia really does want to bring more people together in real life to do this healing process part of your collective and it's not about one collective, it's about the Odyssey right.
36:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
The Odyssey it is, and I love everything that you're doing. I really feel that you're. This journey and everything that you've been through and you know this, I don't need to tell you this, but it feels good to say it is that everything you've been through has brought you to where you are, so that you can serve others. And the more we can do for ourselves, the more we can help others on their journey. And one other thing you need to have a podcast, and if you don't do a podcast, you need to at least do voiceovers with that voice. I know you've been told that before.
37:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I do. You're stroking my ego with my sisters and my wife would please ask you not to do. The audio book is read by me and Jen, so I read the narrative and the explanatory parts and then Jen reads the practices. It's a really nice duet of I guess baritone and soprano.
37:37
So that's my first foray, so I'll get to podcasting another time, but I was actually just really thinking about your expression, that from trauma to triumph, and so something that I really want to offer for you and all your listeners is that if we move past the nervous system for a second and start simply with the idea of energy, chi, or a term that I like, which is called life force, most folks know now and I hope, if they don't hear this from me that all of your survival patterns, all of your coping responses, all of your trauma responses, are extraordinary efforts by your mind and body, by your nervous system, by your life force to protect you and keep you alive. And it's wildly powerful, like if for a moment you didn't criticize your trauma response and just looked how potent it was. Like, holy shit, look at all of this energy that mobilizes to protect me. You know like it's so powerful it could light up a city. You know, and it feels that way sometimes in your body. Yet when it is stuck, when it's patterned and habitualized by trauma into survival, it is life force that's trapped in a very dark and unhelpful place. And the beauty of this work is that, as you recognize it and you're able to liberate that life force that's in the trauma response and then redesign it, that same volcano of energy that's been deploying for your entire life to keep you protected, safe and surviving. You get to reclaim that life force for triumph, for living, for creativity, for fucking crushing it at life.
39:51
I'm 100% serious about this, that the greatest victory of my healing journey has not been getting out of pain although that's been fucking dope not to be in pain. Dope not to be in pain. It's been the reabsorption and feeling of how vital and bright I can be, how amazing my body can feel, how much love I can feel right, how much joy I can feel. And I just want to. I just want to repeat that, guys, when we say from trauma to triumph, it is about taking that life force and reabsorbing it into beautiful, amazing, profound and delicious aspects of being alive, rather than just surviving. And it's there in you already. It's just doing things that aren't helpful anymore and it's really amazing to transform it. It's already there.
40:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And it's possible, it's more than possible. You listen to this episode and suddenly you were going to. It could be the click in your head that you needed to know, oh, almost like when you picked up Bessel's book or John Sonnero's book or any, or somebody's going to pick up your book. It could be that one little aha that you've been waiting for. And don't ignore those signs. That's the thing. It's like. Our body knows, our gut, that whole force inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit. Right inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit right and be like was that was?
41:22
that eagle that you know, like the eagle story that you shared before. Like is this eagle telling me a whole thing about this building that I'm working in? And it was a different message that you got and we talked about that trauma to triumph, trauma to triumph like triumph, trauma to triumph.
41:37
My friends, you explained it so and it's so lovely to have you share it that way and use everything you're doing to kind of well not kind of to actually be in alignment with what this podcast is about but also just the conversation as friends, like I get it and I love it, and I love that we're sharing it. So, once again, we will share everything about the book. We're going to share that course, that free introduction to the course. You know more about SOMIA now and HEAL and everything that Karden is putting out there. Real quick, I do want to ask you one question and then we're going to play a little game real quick. How did you and Jen come?
42:13 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
together. That life is a combination of being at cause and also, if not, trusting, listening to the universe, right? David Goggins is an example of an invincible man at cause, right, which is amazing, but it's a huge amount of work and it's all on you. It's a hard way to live, right? So when I say at cause, we do have to do work, folks, we have to develop ourselves, we have to seize opportunities. When they're there, we can't expect that things fall in our lap, but we also, if, like, things are really in our way making it so hard, maybe there's something to listen there. And also, when things are put into us in a silver platter, maybe there's something to listen there.
42:59
So, although I have done so much work to learn about trauma and somatics and healing the nervous system, it all started in the most random way of John Sarno's book Finding Me on my friend's bookshelf the studio owner's bookshelf, right. So I just want to illustrate that I love the blend of our own efforts moving us forward, but also so beautifully capturing the moments of good fortune of COVID, right, because COVID hit in like March of 2020. Some of you might remember, some of you may have never heard of it For about like six months a hot minute this social media app called Clubhouse took off.
43:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh God, what happened to Clubhouse People still?
43:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
have it Right, like why do you even have an account? Yeah, we're not getting to why it failed, but when it was busting it was Boston. Yeah yeah um, a friend of mine for weeks insisted Karden, you got to get on clubhouse, you got to get on clubhouse and I told him to f off. Over and over and again I was like I don't have the bandwidth to take on another social media platform. I don't even like being on the one I am and he's like no, you got to do it and like you, you know, Hilary, he's like Karden .
44:19
I would pay to make you stop talking, but people love hearing you talk. You need to get on that thing. You're best talking. And I was like, ah fine, so anyway I get on Clubhouse and I end up loving it, I end up loving it.
44:35
Colleague and teacher, charlie Merrill, who's a brilliant physical therapist in this neuroplastic pain space, like of solving pain through the brain, because that's where it's actually caused by he's great Guys. You should look up Charlie Merrill and follow him on Instagram. He and I ran a show on Clubhouse Weekly called Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived Clubhouse Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived clubhouse For the short-lived clubhouse. And it was. We loved it. Right, people would come into the clubhouse and we would talk about neuroplastic pain, about conditioned responses, about how the brain's responsible for pain, and we would have people would be able to come on stage and ask questions about how to deal with X, y and Z injury or pain process. And it was great.
45:26
And during this time, jen, who you know, we knew nothing of one another.
45:28
She was in London recovering from a year and a half of being horribly sick and bed bound with chronic fatigue syndrome, pots, mass cell activation syndrome, mitochondrial dysfunction like the entire menu of catastrophic nervous system dysregulation and collapse.
45:48
And she had made about. She was in the midst of healing through various nervous system techniques and she, that same day that I was running the show with charlie, she downloaded the app, hopped on for the first time ever, stumbled into the room of ask the pain guys, listened to our conversation, asked a question. We had a little good exchange on Clubhouse. She signed off, never went back on Clubhouse again, but she sent me a DM through Instagram to follow up on the conversation in Clubhouse and then we hit it off on Instagram. She became a client and then she became my friend and my colleague and my partner and we, this entire movement of Somia, of the HEAL program, of the thousands of people that we've helped, of the secret language of the body. None of this would have happened ever if she and I hadn't collided when we should have never, ever collided in a million years for 30 minutes on Clubhouse.
47:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's crazy, so we have to really say thanks to Clubhouse. It's like being in a bad relationship and you're like, oh, I don't know why that happened. And then you're like, oh wait, that led me to this right.
47:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Exactly Clubhouse. That was the bad relationship that led me to this right. Exactly. Clubhouse, that was the bad relationship Exactly and COVID.
47:23
Thanks for locking us all in home for a year and a half, so that we had to be on this app because we had nothing else to do, right? So, yeah, that's how Jen and I met and we are clearly long-lost siblings. But yeah, that's the magic of that, that's what I'm saying. And then to seize it, to then do it, to go for it once it was there. But, once again, success is a mysterious thing, isn't it?
47:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that you share that story. It's so inspiring. I mean, especially when you told me that you wrote the book in 100 days. You know, as someone who's sitting here finishing my book and submitting my proposals and stuff, I'm like, oh God, a book is supposed to take me years and I'm a writer, right. But it's all the synergy, it's all the alignment and things, just just trusting that everything will work out, not just writing a book, but just the people that come into your life, the situations. You have, a lot of synergies that have happened in your life and we can manifest to the day as long. Right, Manifesting is great, but I think a lot of it is just releasing, letting go, surrendering, trusting, but also like having a clear idea of like I know I'm here for something more. I know I'm here for something. This shit did not happen for no reason. I say that all the time. I'm like those days when you're in the shit, you're like it's gotta be for something, Gotta be for something it really does.
48:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
It really does and I invite you know if you're alive, it means that you also have diamonds in your life, and what that means. And what that means and what I think can be a really nice practice is to to maybe close your eyes. Or, the next time you're in a shower, close your eyes and think about every wildly improbable instance that has led you to where you are, where you are still alive or you're in like. Despite all this hardship, you have this remarkable partner right or a job, and what I want you to look at is those improbable moments of like yeah that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gone to the coffee shop at that fucking moment of that day.
49:42
Well, in my instance, bessel van der Kolk, freaking, wandered in right. But we all have these moments. Hilary, can you think of the ones you have? Like just the countless like you and I bumping into each other at Joshua's right, like just that how sweet of a thing, you know. And when you start looking at that, like how sweet of a thing, you know, and when you start looking at that there is a kind of haven that wraps itself around your body and your skin. You almost get goosebumps in a good way, where you're like, holy shit, these diamonds. None of them quote unquote should have happened. None of them happened because I made them happen. They happened because life stumbled them into me.
50:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh God, we are so in alignment. I say that all the time. I don't say that, I say that life is a falling into. We fall into these moments. I love that you say that because it's just. It's amazing how things happen and sometimes we can't explain and we don't need to have answers. Sometimes, not having the actual answer or proof positive is the answer. The answer is just be happy that it's happening right.
50:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Just be happy.
50:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, I think about that event that we did Heal the Healer and I know you and I have done many events other than that, but that event was really something special and I do want to give a shout out to Joshua Rosenthal for that, because whether you went through IIN or not, which is the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, you know each other somehow, whether you live in the shires, as you call it. I love that, which I'm looking for real estate, like tomorrow. There's something about that event that just brought a lot of people together and so much synergy with folks, because we're all on a healing journey forever. You know, we're always looking to better ourselves and and just feel better and be better.
51:36 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
That event was was one of those moments, I have to say, for me it really was and and like, like that whole audience was in cindy, like it was so nice to just walk into a place where you're like these are my people, that's what we're here for, everyone wanting to make a contribution, everyone being thirsty for learning more about this.
51:55
And I'd also say, the kind of quantum leap of none of this trauma stuff was really really being talking about what two or even four years ago Right, but it's definitely not five or 10 years ago or this is just the next wave, and I get that and I hear it and there's a lot of bullshit out there the velocity with which this knowledge is circulating and that people are incorporating the nervous system and trauma component into their overall health picture, to add it to the Venn diagram or really, as I like to think about it, it is the background to the entire diagram, like food, fitness, all these other things. They float on top of the nervous system. So it's like let's start dealing with that. It was just so great to see it all clicking so well there, and so I applaud Joshua for putting that together for having us and for just being a leader in the space.
52:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, he definitely is that pioneer in that space and it's one of those things that brings people together. So we could talk for hours and I imagine we're going to have many more conversations, but for the benefit of your time and mine and those who are like all right, I need to park my car. I keep going in circles wanting to. I have so many people that say that they're like.
53:14 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I hope they're doing that, or they're like Jesus. Will this, will this guy stop?
53:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh no, I do not think that's it. I've had people that are like I actually took the long way to work because I was listening to the podcast. So those are those moments. I love that. So what I want to do with you real quick is play a game. I do this with those on the show on the show, so loosen yourself up. I'm going to throw out a word and some of these words well, all these words are those words that you've said during our conversation.
53:42 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
We're not going to do like a rap battle, are we?
53:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're going to do a rapid fire word association.
53:48 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I can already feel my freeze response starting, so let's try it.
53:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I know a book you can read that might help you with that. All right, here we go. Here we go, all right.
54:03 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Biohack.
54:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Lotus.
54:08 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Vegas.
54:10 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Helpful.
54:12 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Somatic.
54:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everything so me, yeah, pasta, everything so me pasta.
54:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I'm sorry had to uh traumatic, healable emotional always two words nervous system everywhere author Two words nervous system.
54:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everywhere. Author Me yeah, you and heal.
54:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Now.
54:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You're like a little kid, You're like that's me.
54:57 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
My identity has not caught up to the fact that I wrote a book.
55:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Not just wrote a book. Like wrote a book, that's really doing well. That's true, that's true, yeah, and you have a huge publisher behind you. You know not that you have to. Don't want to discourage people that might not have publishers, or self-published, because putting a book out there and putting your knowledge out there is amazing. But let's just give credit where credit is due.
55:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I'm going to age myself. I appreciate that I'm going to age myself, though, so I got interviewed by the BBC a week or so ago about the book and it was a guy named Gavin.
55:36
Uh, Ggavin Ramjaun had me on, you know, and he and he starts the interview out by like, he's like we've got a nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin, here, but that's like how does it feel to be flying up the book charts, right? And I was like, ah, I feel like I'm on like some Casey Kasem interview, you know, with the top 100, you know and I was like hallucinating.
55:57
I'm like, is this my life? Is this, like you know? And so, yeah, you know, the book cracked the. The book has been released in the UK and it comes out in the United States a couple weeks later, so there's a slight difference. So we cracked the UK Amazon top 100 for all books. So that means like we're up against war and peace and the Hunger Games and the Hungry, hungry Caterpillar and that was really awesome. But yeah, like I said, I you're right, I've written this book, but like I still don't, I still haven't caught up to the fact that I've written it.
56:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I think that's just you staying empathetic and compassionate and being the true person you are, like you can be a best selling author. And being the true person you are, like you can be a best-selling author, an Academy Award winning actor, you know whatever. Like give someone a title, that's fine, but when the day is done, you come into this earth naked and you leave it naked, so-.
56:46 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
You sure do.
56:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right. So it's appreciating every day.
56:50 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
If your people are wondering, like whether this is me now, this is me in the course this is me now.
57:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is me in the course. This is me. If you're in a live thing, I don't really shape, shift too much. I'm this guy, I love that. I love that. So is it just a course, or do you?
57:07 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
still take clients one-on-one, I mean, besides Bessel, right, right. So my private practice is currently closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. Closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. What we do do is we're continuing to train more and more mentors to be able to support the student body, and then the course is taught in one of two ways.
57:27
There's the self-study version, which is what most people do and it's what you have to start with. But the self-study version, again, is supported by that healing collective. And then Jen and I, a couple times a year, will run 12-week intensives where for those who have completed the HEAL program, it's an intimate group and it's live with Jen and I every week for 12 weeks. It's such a remarkable experience. Oh, I imagine it's remarkable because of what being in relationship does folks Like? If you know anything about trauma healing or the polyvagal system, that human connection, the ventral, vagal response, being in community as human mammals we find safeties in others. We can make so much progress healing on our own, but when we become a pod and when we're swimming in the same direction, 90% of the healing that happens in that happens because of the absolutely beautiful and authentic sharing, vulnerability and triumph of the fellow participants, and Jen and I just have to literally support and scaffold the unfolding of that process and it just blows my mind every time.
58:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it. I am so excited to share this because I can think of a handful of people well, handful. I can think of way more than that that would benefit from this, but people who are close to me that I know would benefit from it. Quite frankly, I'm curious.
59:04 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Hey, you might have to join us for that party. Hill yeah Right.
59:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it. I love everything about it. Thank you so much for being here, sharing your gift, sharing just the knowledge you have, but just your own story, because it is going to help somebody else many people, I imagine. But do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with those tuning in?
59:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I feel like you've had a lot of them, but Well, we went back to you know when the word game. I warmed up as we went through.
59:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I want to say two things, I think.
59:33 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
When you said biohack, I said lotus, we're gonna, we're gonna delete that. Because when you said biohack, what I really wanted to say was, um, and the reason why I wanted to say is that we do not heal ourselves through a collection of biohacks. Remember what I said earlier, that you know, mastery is a profound understanding and application of principles. And if we bring it back to the language analogy of speaking Italian, you can think of biohacks as, like you know about like nine or 10 phrases, and they can be really useful. Where's the bathroom? How do I get to the piazza? You know my name, is what's your name and my age, and with like with 10 or so biohacks or pieces of language, you can, you can, you're doing okay, right, you can correct things, you can get around. But it is a thousand miles away from true fluency and I would really invite your listeners to take that into heart, that the goal is exquisite, intimate, painful, transcendent, triumphant fluency with your humanity, with your being, with your nervous system, with your history, with your emotions, with all of it, and through that fluency you can understand it with a huge amount of empathy. But then you can also begin to lead it, you can carry the conversation, you can direct it, you can run for office, you can start a business right, like what you're capable of. When you can speak instead of just say a couple phrases. It's the biggest difference in the world.
01:01:20
So stop looking for just more practices. Folks. Find folks like Hilary and I and the other people who are teaching you how to see the forest, not just the trees right, that's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. That's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. You said heal and I said now, like, timing comes for all of us, but if you can just remember, I said it was a combination of being at cause and having the universe stumble into you. Like, right now, something might be stumbling into you and my invitation for you is to say yes and try it and do it.
01:02:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, Standing in the tension of that moment is like right before the change happens. You know you're like you're, you're aware you're in the A. It's the awareness. If you weren't aware you'd'd be. Like hands are flailing and you're doing whatever right. You're in it, you feel it, it's happening.
01:02:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
That's had I not gone up had I not fanboyed on vessel van right. So again the universe brought it into me. You best will walk into the cafe. But had I given into my fear and my embarrassment and not fanboy, I would not have one of the most important relationships in my entire life. Oh, I felt that so say yes, y'all, like in those moments when the universe has has thrown you an easy pass. Fucking catch it and run with it.
01:02:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, get out of the ego way, that fear of being rejected. It's really what it is.
01:03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
It's so much easier than working hard for everything all the time.
01:03:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, I don't have to work for a living.
01:03:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
So those are my final thoughts, Hilary, and next time we talk, I think it would be fun to talk about, instead of recovering from pain. It'd be really cool to maybe talk about relationships, because that's, I think, another massive space. Oh, I'm all over it.
01:03:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All right yeah.
01:03:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
We'll do that next time, all right so?
01:03:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
On that note, thank you so much for saying yes to this conversation and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time, because I'm just glad you said yes conversation, and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time because, uh, I'm just glad you said yes. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I'm going to close on that. Now, that is how you close a conversation. You have been handed a huge gift by Karden, so I do not want you to waste a moment. Take advantage of it as soon as possible. I've not only shared how you can connect with him, I'm also sharing a few special links so that you can take advantage of Heal program and offer from me to you. Just for tuning in to the HIListically Speaking podcast, you can even tell him that Hilary sent you plus grab a copy of that book. Do not waste any time.
01:04:21
The Secret Language of the Body. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. All of that is in the listen notes of this episode. You're also going to find information on how to connect with me and learn more about how you can put healing in your own hands with Hhavening techniques Because, like I said, like we talked about during this conversation. It's about finding what works for you. You have lots of options, loads of possibilities and plenty of support. If this conversation touched, moved and inspired you in any way, consider paying it forward. Pass it along to somebody else who might find value in it and listen, share your thoughts in a rating or review, wherever you're tuning in, because that conversation and those thoughts, those thoughtful responses will help others find this episode and heal hHolistically.
01:05:12
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2Market Media, with music by Lipone Redding and supported by you. So thank you. On that note, just a reminder that these traumas in our lives, there are triumphs just waiting to be celebrated. You have the tools to heal, you have the support. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you soon. Be well.
Melissa Hiemann had her ‘awakening’ back in 2014 when she realized after years of avoiding her traumas through addictions and instant gratification, she was repeating bad behaviors and avoiding the root cause of her pain.
Nearly failing out of school and focusing on limited beliefs, she realized something had to give.
That wake-up call lead her on a new path of discovery and inner healing. Now, through her Centre for Healing, she’s helping others find their future peace today, by raising consciousness through manifesting and being trauma-informed.
On this episode of HIListically Speaking, we get to the root of what’s holding you back and weighing you down, discover different energetic hygiene approaches and pave the way for abundant living.
DOWNLOAD AND TUNE IN TO THIS CONVERSATION ON ANY PODCAST PLATFORM OR YOUTUBE!
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro and Your Future Peace 01:47 Root Cause of Addictions and instant gratification 09:15 Unexpected Journey and Finding Purpose 11:38 Maintaining Energetic Hygiene for Practitioners 14:10 Importance of Professionalism and Self-Care 19:13 Setting Boundaries and Self-Care in Work 22:35 Importance of Trauma-Informed Certification 30:00 Rapid Fire Game 32:58 Healing Generational Trauma and Self-Regulation 36:24 Trauma-Informed Healing Resources
CONNECT WITH MELISSA https://www.facebook.com/groups/thecentreforhealing https://www.instagram.com/thecentreforhealing/ https://www.youtube.com/@thecentreforhealing https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissahiemann/
GRAB HER BOOK ON AMAZON!Natural High: Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and Finding Inner Peace https://amzn.to/3yPTwxR
CENTER FOR HEALING COURSES (Use code HILARY for a 10% discount on any course)
https://www.thecentreforhealing.com/a/43957/58GLXrgy
PUT THE HEALING IN YOUR HANDS WITH HAVENING https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/ TRANSCRIPT
00:07 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
A lot of people. They reach out for things outside of themselves to try and feel okay, to try and feel safe in their body, and so those can be instant things like addictions, like I had shopping addictions. I had heroin, marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, anything I could do in the moment to not feel how I was feeling. I was just jumping to it because I didn't know how to escape how I was feeling in the moment and so when I had those things I felt good for a little bit. But what happens is you ruin your future peace.
00:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Let's get to the root cause Now. I know that that term is thrown around a lot right, root cause? And in the world of functional medicine and holistic medicine, it's about going beyond the diagnosis or the surface, or really getting to the heart of things, the soul of what is holding you back and weighing you down. One of the things I love about HIListically Speaking is having guests come on the show who are experts in their field, but they share their own journeys, right. They're getting to their own root cause, their soul, and turning their own traumas into triumphs.
01:17
Melissa Hiemann she has been on her own awakening journey and she started that back in 2014. And, melissa, you nearly failed out of school. You struggled with addictions addictions and I use that with an S on the end and from those traumas you learned how to heal your limiting beliefs and now, as a therapist, you help others do that every day. It is such a pleasure to have you here and being really open to talk about the root cause and how we can change those traumas into triumphs. Thanks for being here.
01:48
Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure. I want to really talk about the root cause of things, because we haven't covered that topic, but also the fact that you have dealt with numerous addictions, not just one. I've had people come on the show talking about one thing, but it goes back to this book that you wrote called Natural High Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and then Finding the Inner Peace. So can we go there? First, because I think in this world of instant gratification, which we get that from the internet, we get that from different addictions and the internet can be one of them. Now we get that from different addictions and the internet can be one of them. Now, how are you working with people in this area from your own experiences?
02:30 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, sure. So yeah, from my own experience of overcoming my addictions and going on my own healing journey, as you mentioned, I came to realize I wasn't willing to sit in my body with how I was feeling. And so an outcome of that and a symptom of that, is that either we jump up into our head, we try and intellectualize everything and also we try to numb out how we're feeling, because essentially we're all trying to feel good, right, we're all trying to feel peaceful and happy and like, obviously. And so when we don't feel like that and if we don't have the tools for several root cause reasons, if we don't have the tools to soothe ourselves, if we don't have the tools to feel our emotions, we don't feel safe to feel our emotions, then a lot of people they reach out for things outside of themselves to try and feel okay, to try and feel safe in their body, and so those can be instant things like addictions.
03:28
Like I had shopping addictions. I had heroin, marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, anything I could do in the moment to not feel how I was feeling. I was just jumping to it because I didn't know how to escape how I was feeling in the moment. And so when I had those things. I felt good for a little bit, you know, but what happens is you ruin your future peace because I've just spent all my money, I've just I've got to hang over the next day, I've taken away from my future self feeling okay, because I wanted that instant gratification, I wanted to feel better now, and I didn't know, I didn't have the tools to know how to do that, and so that took me on a huge journey of then discovering how to heal, to feel my emotions, to be able to process them, to be able to not project it onto everyone else. And then, yeah, this whole journey took me through a lot of modalities and it took me to wanting to help others and give this really valuable information to others that are struggling or they have family members that are struggling.
04:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, you mentioned. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. That hit me. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. That hit me. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. So there was a wake up call, apparently. What was that about?
04:51 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Oh my gosh. So the wake up call I was sitting in my little apartment on the beach and I had my sports car and I had my corporate job and you know, externally my life looked amazing. But in, in reality, I was in that little apartment because I had left my abusive relationship. I had been with someone else to help myself leave that relationship because I was so insecure. And I remember the day that I moved, the other guy was like I can't do this.
05:19
And I remember sitting there like so depressed and so sad, looking out at the water, thinking maybe I'm the lowest common denominator here, like why does this keep happening? You know, and I had no awareness I had, I was just, you know, blaming everyone else. I was like the whim of everyone else and I was like I think I need to get help, like and at that point maybe I had seen a counselor once. I was all about just like being positive, making sure I look good on the outside and kind of just pushing, sucking it up and pushing it through and and, and you know, part of that was I was probably looking at the water, drinking or whatever I was doing, and I that's the first time I reached out for for help, because I was like again I, that I probably have a part in this more than I realize and, and maybe you know, and I well, that's the wake up call, right?
06:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean part of that is the awareness. The first step to any change is awareness and to be able to sit back and be like perhaps this is something that I need to take responsibility for and stop blaming everything outside of self.
06:26 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Exactly that. Yeah, that was huge yeah.
06:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and maybe, maybe blame isn't the right word because then we're just shaming ourselves, but just taking accountability and responsibility that you want to have a better future right as you. Better future peace. Yeah that what's not working. Maybe I'm part of not seeing what could be working, so how did that lead you to the work that you're doing now, and especially the root cause therapy method?
06:54 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, so yeah, this would be like 2013,. 2014 I'm talking about. So it was quite a while ago, but I did. I, I, a friend, had um come over and he was like you should contact this other guy. He's like into this life coaching or something. Now I'm like sure I'll message him and have a chat, you know.
07:12
Anyway, I organized a session and it wasn't just a chat, it was a deeply transformational regression, inner child healing experience, and I walked out just never the same person again, just becoming conscious of my subconscious, of my unconscious, of these patterns that were playing out in the background. Because, honestly, I thought yesterday and the past was just in the past I didn't realize it was still playing out in the now. I had no awareness of that. And so when I walked out of that session, I was like wow. And I remember two weeks later he's like I'm running a course, I'm training people in it, and at the time I was in a sales job because I knew I wanted a business. I just didn't know what kind. I'm like I need to learn sales. So I remember doing that course and halfway through it hit me like a lightning bolt. I don't know for those of you that you just found your purpose in the middle of something. It literally felt like a lightning bolt went through my body, yes, and I was like this is what I'm meant to be doing. I'm meant to be helping people get out of their own way.
08:17
And I remember just healing like kind of one limiting belief, this fear of failure and I had been working on a business in the background like a jewelry business for a year and in healing that one belief, within two weeks I had finished designing the product, got it in production, started like selling it like so quickly and I'm like, oh my gosh, people just get in their own way. I was just getting in my own way, like I need to help people get out of their own way as well, like I, honestly, I grew up thinking that I was dumb and I grew up thinking that I couldn't learn like other people and there was something wrong with me. But actually I was just disassociated because I didn't feel safe growing up. There was quite a bit of trauma and I took on the beliefs that people told me.
08:56
So starting to shift them, starting to feel my emotions, starting to become aware of my behaviors, that I was doing to try and escape how I was feeling Like it just opened up a whole new world for me. So I became certified as soon as I could and I just did not stop studying. All of a sudden I was a bookworm. All of a sudden I cut out half the people in my life and I'm just like surrounded by books and videos and like I'm like, give me more, you know. And that's kind of where it started, yeah.
09:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, it's amazing how we can look back on where we were five years ago, 10 years ago, and think I never thought in a million years I would be doing this. You know, I think about that myself because my background being a journalist. But the traumas of being in journalism especially when you're dealing with stories from 9-11 or just traumatic conversations that moved me into this work or just stuff that we've dealt with in life, and it's kind of like a pop, right. You're like what am I doing? How can I leave this world better? Right. And then you're like I never thought I'd be doing this. But if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
10:04 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I'd be doing this, but if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. Yes, yeah, totally, and I think that when you start to do any kind of therapy or like healing well, you do tend to expand outside of you just being in the survival, like looking after yourself, and as you expand, you're like I want to serve people. Now, like I'm, I have this huge yearning to like heal people and help as many people as I can, and I think it's beautiful and I think it's amazing.
10:29
whatever industry that we're in, you can just tell when people are really passionate and they're lit up and they're like on this, on this path, you know and so, yeah, I just, I just love, but I particularly love our space as well, because I'm, I know, like until I'm 100 I'll probably still find things to heal, but I'm forever expanding to be of service, you know, and then in turn, then we can pass that wisdom on to the people around us and onto our clients and the people that we're mentoring, and it's just a beautiful ripple effect.
11:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And we don't own it. That's the thing Like everything that we effect and we don't own it. That's the thing Like everything that we're learning we don't own. So even if you're developing a course or a certification, or you're sharing a modality or an approach, or you're helping somebody else heal their traumas or upsets, we're not healing them, we're just guiding them, we're supporting them, but we don't own the process. You know, and we see a lot of people out there coaching and doing their thing, and there are many that are doing for the right reasons, and then there are some that are doing it for reasons that are not so beneficial of the person they are serving. So how do you differentiate yourself? To make sure people know I'm coming from an authentic space yourself, to make sure?
11:44 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
people know I'm coming from an authentic space. Yeah, definitely. So that's something that I found out of my training. I kind of went into a session going OK, obviously I want to make money and things like that. But I was like I've been given a bunch of tools what is the protocol here to actually run a really effective session? So my clients are getting so much out of it.
12:04
Because my first few sessions I was like I look back and I think that could have gone so much better, like obviously we're always learning and things like that. But I had to put it, structure it together myself, and so one of like a part of my mission is to help as many people that are healers and therapists to do what they love full time, and a part of that was to go what did I actually need when I got training to run the best sessions that I can? So my clients are walking away. They know they got something out of it, because this work can be really intangible, like I think I feel better, you know, and that can be like talk therapy, like oh, I think I feel better, I think I feel worse, I don't know. I'm kind of walking around on the surface, and so what I did was I created this structure for not only for clients but for the practitioners to feel really confident, to be able to run a really holistic session looking at the whole person and then to be able to find the root cause through this structure and then.
13:00
So my path is like international business freight, like it was completely different, but what I got out of that was that I was really good at in terms of collecting data and looking at data changes. So what I did was I was like, as a practitioner and as a client, for you to see the exact changes that have happened over each session. So we call it the testing sheet and we can actually see, with the client's feedback, including muscle testing, including just how they're feeling and and, somatically, what's coming up for them. We can see and manage the priorities of what we can work on in each session and what has actually been shifted, like we actually have data from each session and so we can actually show the client or tell the client and actually prioritize what's best to work on. What have we already worked through? Um, and so that's kind of like the, the heart of root cause therapy.
13:51
It's like making it a much more tangible process and looking at someone on all levels of consciousness, their conscious mind their subconscious, their physical body, their mental body, um, and so yeah, it's a, it's that, and that's not including the actual healing part of it, the actual going to the root cause. But that's such an important piece because I really want more professionalism in the space. I wanted people to know that they were safe with their practitioner. So, like in my training there's a lot of training around like that, how to manage your clients properly like I've had coaching sessions where they're just like here's a calendar link, like there's no intake form, there's no like proper structure, like oh yeah, like they might email you after, like no, I want this to be a really safe container where we know I'm with someone that knows what they're doing. We teach the method, but we also teach the business side of that to be really ethical and really give that credibility.
14:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that we're touching on this area of how to serve the practitioner and the coach. I mean, I was just telling you when we were before we pressed record that I just finished doing a two-day conference where I was emcee and also presenting to healers, to healers, coaches, practitioners, because we're really the first ones to not think about taking care of ourselves. And one of the areas that I focus on a lot is secondary traumatic stress, because we think it's burnout, we think we're just overwhelmed and rarely, when you're doing trauma work especially, you don't realize that you might be just like a sponge. You're taking in some of what you're hearing, some of what another person's trauma is that primary duress right. So we need more conversations like this, especially for practitioners, caregivers, coaches, therapists, doctors that yes, you are in service to others, but how beautiful is it that you are taking care of yourself so that you can show up 100% for someone else and stop putting yourself on the back burner, you know.
15:52 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Absolutely, I mean so.
15:54
My partner and I in 2016 opened an outpatient mental health and addiction center, so we were not only dealing and helping people with their addictions, but also we would include their their main family members or their partner, whoever was mainly their person and so there was a lot of that and we were working 12 hour days and I remember this older lady that, um, we had like infranutrition things and she was like you guys need to get massages, you guys need to slow down, like you can't, like people need you, and at the time I was like, whatever, I was like I'm fine, and we were just pushing through and working crazy hours and managing all the staff and like, obviously like dealing with inquiries and hearing all the stories and doing the healing. So we're like, yeah, like you said, like secondary trauma, witnessing with the client the traumas that they went through, like in some of them, you know, obviously horrific, and like kind of processing that and doing our own work at the same time. And yeah, and we did, we got to the point after like four and a half years where, like after I had a child as well, after I had a baby, that changed my priority of like looking after myself and having time. And that's why we kind of shifted over to teaching online courses, not only being able to help more people around the world, but to actually look after ourselves a little bit. Because it was, it was, yeah, I was getting to the point of burnout and I was getting sick a lot and I was dysregulated, like sometimes I was getting really angry and really frustrated and and that's like not the approach that I want to have.
17:30
I'm the center for healing, like we're meant to be baseball and I'm like we need to practice what we preach here. So I so resonate with that and, yeah, part of like the training for our students is that energetic hygiene, you know, energetically, like before a session, grounding yourself, being able to hold space for them, an empathetic space, but not trying to take on what's coming up and letting the client process it and, like you said, being a guide. And then, after a session, like little things, like just getting doing your notes, just like getting it out, so you're not thinking about it for days after, having your own little ritual to help clear the space. And it might be also little things like increasing your prices a little bit so you have less clients. So there's so many little elements that you can do to find that that work-life balance because the work is is so important like the world needs us. So, yeah, like you said, we do need to make sure that our cup is full so then we don't have empathy, burnout and things like that so important.
18:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Energetic hygiene. Energetic hygiene, that is a great way of putting it. So let's talk about some of those energetic hygiene approaches that we can do for those who are in the caregiving practitioner doctors, therapists, you know what, anyone because it doesn't matter what your, what field you're in, you're always going to be hearing other people's stuff right, whether you do it for a living or not. So let's go through maybe like five things people can do. You just mentioned a couple. You mentioned saying yes to that massage, doing your notes right away, doing a little self care right, doing the notes right away rather than waiting. Name a couple others. I'm curious.
19:13 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, so other things would be well, like I said, just increasing your prices a little bit, just so that, and not feeling bad about that. I mean some people like to do a sliding scale, which means sometimes you charge certain demographics one price, but I found that I just I had to do that to honor my time and that allowed me to have like a couple of hours in the day to chill and watch Netflix or just that's self-care, to chill and watch Netflix or just that's self-care.
19:40
That is self-care especially for those of us that, like we're always like I need you to be doing something with work, like no, you can be a normal person as well and just like binge a little bit, and that's fine. You know, on your favorite show and the other things I would say is that and this is a word that gets thrown around so much with boundaries but just getting really clear on what works for you in terms of maybe there's only certain times of the day where you have the most energy, like the best energy. So for some people it might be 4pm onwards, so that's fine. Make your availability 4pm onwards, and why I say boundaries? Because some of us go. Your availability 4p onwards. And why I say boundaries? Because some of us go.
20:23
Well, I just need to be available when clients need me, so I'm going to jump on it anytime, even if it doesn't suit my I know, like when I have good energy and not good energy, and so honoring that and holding to that and not being scared that they're not going to book with you or not being scared that you're not going to make enough money because of that. If you really like, own that and go. No, these are. I only work Thursday, friday and Saturday um for consultations. Whatever industry that you're in, try your best to make it suit how you work, because otherwise you will get burnt out and you will get resentful and I think that does come through um with whatever you're doing to the clients as well. So that's super important. And I did touch on ritual a little bit and it depends how woo-woo you are, how spiritual you are. But you know I've got stuff like this space clearing spray. You know that I just spray around me. I like to smell some essential oil to kind of ground me.
21:21
Sometimes I'm like I just need to go outside and just be near a tree or something like I just and just grounding grounding and I would say the number one thing and we do offer supervision in our courses is that have someone that you can talk to about your sessions, to decompress and just to debrief. We were really lucky at the Healing Center because all our officers were near each other like, oh my God, I want to tell you about the session, blah, blah, blah. We were able to debrief, but it's not so easy, especially with client confidentiality. You don't want to just like tell your partner about your whole client's session. So having someone that, whether they're a co-worker, like someone that is doing the same method as you.
22:04
It could be someone that is your trainer or someone that you've hired as a mentor, someone that you can just go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like this or I got triggered, or you know cause. We're going to get triggered as well, you know, in sessions, and I think if you've got someone to bounce that off, that's so important for your own mental health and to get it out.
22:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everything you said is like, so on point, because you know we want to serve, we want to help, we want to help people heal, and rarely are we thinking about what we can do.
22:35
But also having that one person who's in a similar field, that understands, rather than unloading it on your partner or unloading it on you know a friend who's kind of like I don't know what you're talking about, and not breaking confidentiality, but doing it within the walls of your, your therapeutic center, or if you work at a place or you just know, like I have a mentor that I go to, I have my other practitioners, and having that just to be like, how do you feel about this? You need that, we all need that, you know. So that's really important. I think those are really good tips, especially when we're doing trauma work, and I want to talk to you briefly about that, because you do offer a trauma informed certification and there are a lot of certifications out there. So what makes your trauma-informed certification different from the copious other ones that are out there, the myriad of courses that call you trauma-informed?
23:34 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, sure. So originally, as I was watching the industry change and a lot of coaches coming into the industry and myself just having the awareness of blending therapy and coaching, I'm like I have the sense that a lot of people are being held space for, but I feel like with coaching, there's not much awareness of trauma or reactions of trauma that people are having or when a client is having a trauma response, and, as a coach, often people are trying to push them through that, which can cause them to shut down or get depressed or become burnt out. And so, as I watch the industry rapidly grow, I said to my partner and another trainer that we have on, like you guys need to make a trauma-informed certificate, like for these coaches, like it's super important. So they, they did it, they create, they recorded it and everything and we started selling it and I just I just had this feeling I'm like it's not. It was a very affordable price and everything. I'm like it's not, it's not reaching enough people, it's not, and it's not reaching enough people, it's not.
24:45
And and we're doing quite well with our other courses. I know you guys put a lot of effort into this and it's an incredible course, but do you mind making it free. And they were like what? And I'm like, trust me, trust me, trust me. They're like, okay, I'm like we need to make a positive ripple effect in the industry. And so they were like, okay, like they're just trusting me again, and it absolutely blew up. So to date, I think about 70,000 people have enrolled in this course and literally because I see the comments every day, so in our courses you can do comments under each lesson and we're there and we're answering questions and things like that, and the testimonial is like this is the best course on being trauma-informed in the world. I've done a psychology degree. This is the best education that I've ever had.
25:31
This is, and so people taking it that are either managers, parents, teachers, so it's not just for coaches, it's for anyone that is holding space to other people in any capacity, and so many people go through it for themselves as well, and so the main kind of points that are in there that people get out of it is understanding the nervous system, understanding the reactions of the nervous system, understanding how to hold space for someone by regulating yourself, to be able to hold a safe space for whoever you're holding the space for, and to recognize when someone is having a trauma response and how to navigate that and how to help them around that.
26:13
And I think you know one of my old friends she was and I'm talking 15 years ago became a school teacher and she would like complain about some kid that had ADHD and she would be quite negative about it and be like, oh, I kind of would have a go at them, see if they do this course they would have a huge understanding of oh, this is actually the reaction that they're having because of what they've been through. And these are the things that I can do to help this student to feel safer, to learn and to hold and to be able to understand. Okay, what can we adjust to make it a safer experience for them?
26:48
So they're not having these behavioral reactions. But it comes to anyone really like why do we have these behavioral reactions? What do they actually mean? You know, and yeah, so.
27:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I think it's amazing that you're offering it for free and I just want to let folks know that I'm going to have that link in the notes of this podcast for Melissa's certification. This is a trauma informed certification or even the other short, free educational courses that you do offer. We'll have that all in the podcast notes for the Center for Healing. That's so generous and honestly to be able to give that gift to people even if they don't need the certification.
27:29
The knowledge is really helpful, whether you are in the field of therapy or coaching, like you said, teachers I know plenty of lawyers and people that are in the legal that are hearing the stories from the narcissist, and I mean the battle back and forth is traumatic in a lot of ways and there are a lot of lawyers that are getting sort of certifications in narcissism, trauma, informed approaches, just so they know how to NLP, you know learning the language of what's coming at you. So all of this is so helpful. I mean more education is great as long as it's authentic and comes with some kind of a backing.
28:10 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
So absolutely and the the way that the that Matt and Ryan teacher is. It's so digestible, like you don't have to have the technical knowledge of, like the coaching industry or NLP or as a therapist, like it's so or science exactly. It's like, oh my gosh, like everything that I've learned has clicked in.
28:31
You know, and um, and, and people enjoy watching it and I'm just so I'm so grateful for Matt and Ryan that they were like yes, make this a free, because I truly believe if everyone becomes trauma informed, we are going to have a better world, because we're going to realize I'm raging and I'm angry, because actually I'm feeling scared and dysregulated about this because potentially I'm getting triggered because of this.
28:56
So, rather than attacking someone all of a sudden, we've had this huge awareness about ourselves and we're able to calm down and then have a conversation with someone that we need to have a conversation with, rather than attacking each other, abusing each other, cutting each other off, like just basic human behavior, like having that understanding that all of us I don't want to say all of us have experienced extreme trauma, but all of us have. I don't want to say all of us have experienced extreme trauma, but all of us have probably had painful experiences of probably getting triggered now by each other and by circumstances. That, yeah, if we're to have that awareness, understanding ourselves and others, it's going to be a much more peaceful, communicative society. I really believe that. Yes absolutely.
29:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I couldn't agree more. And it's a question of learning how to respond instead of react. You know, because that that scared, that scared creature that we have in the little amygdala up there, little Amy, that gets scared and doesn't feel safe if she's gonna, if she's backed against a corner, it's all hell breaks loose. You know, yeah, so it's definitely understanding that that's great, it's such a beautiful offering and just everything that you're doing. So, before we actually wrap things up because I know you've got things that you need to do, you got a full day ahead of you in Australia I would love to play a little game with you, real quick, sure, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw out a word and you just come back with the first word that comes to mind. Let's get things going with the get you get you moving on your day ahead. You'll thank thank me for it later. All right, one word, here we go. Transformational Recalcerapy Okay, okay. Healing.
30:44
In a child Peace neutrality practitioner space holder boundaries self-care addiction self-soothing energetic hygiene.
31:11 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I know it's two words, but I just really love that I'm going to say the word you already said, but boundaries Okay.
31:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And self-care, and that's one word, because it's hyphenated.
31:25 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yes, self-love Beliefs.
31:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Generalizations Good.
31:34 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Gratification, I want to say painful emotions, which is the opposite of gratification. But I feel like it's okay. We're trying to gratify ourselves so we don't feel the painful emotions.
31:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now I'm going to give you one more word. I got to keep going. One more Root cause one more root cause.
31:56 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
The word that comes to mind is dna, just because I've had a lot of clients with generational trauma at the moment.
32:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, that's a. That's a big topic yeah we didn't even really get into that. I know you mentioned it a little bit going back to the inner child, but that generational trauma and holding space for ourselves with the ancestral trauma, what would you say to those tuning in about being able to process that and be open to the idea of generational trauma?
32:29 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
so you can look at the cherry blossom study. There's a study that's been done on how generational trauma can get passed down, not only by us hearing stories that have happened to our ancestors, but actually we live out the symptoms in our dna. So some people will have symptoms and behaviors that they don't understand why they're having them and it doesn't make sense their reactions that they're having to the life that they've had, and sometimes the trauma has been passed down generationally. And so I have taken people into regression and I myself have gone into regression where I was in my grandmother, where she couldn't feed her kids and my mom was only little and I felt how she felt and I saw the rice on the table and that's all she had for them. This is in Sri Lanka, in a village rice on the table and that's all she had for them. This is in Sri Lanka, in a village, and I and and the behaviors that I had previous to understanding that was like I would hate to go to a restaurant.
33:22
I always looked at the food and I always used to think there's not enough food. I can't eat this restaurant food. They're wasting so much food. There's not enough food. I couldn't go to a supermarket. I had all these weird behaviors that were unexplainable, but once I went to that and healed that, that shifted all of that. Now I'm happy to go to a restaurant and I believe there's an abundance of food and so, yes, it's very those of us that are willing to do the work.
33:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're often healing generations of trauma from both sides our mother and father's ancestry you know, so it's yeah I remember when I first went through trauma informed, my trauma, informed certification I really opened up and I was like and I don't know where it came from it, just like it was, like I just vomited all of this generational trauma and the feeling that I had in my body that I had not felt before.
34:14
And I remember calling my mom after saying it ends now, like it ends today. And I had already been doing this work for a while, but something about something hit me hard with that program where I went really deep into the generational trauma and I was like, oh no, like it ends, it ends today, it ends here, with this lineage, right here. And that's really an awareness, it's stepping into the tension of the unknown and realizing you have a couple of choices. You can go forward, right, you can retreat and nothing changes. If nothing changes, you can try to go around it without dealing with it or try to go over it, but you'll get kicked back. So it's really just like diving through it, you know.
34:56 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
A hundred percent yeah.
34:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Wow, Good stuff. Melissa, thank you so much for being here and I want to give you a moment because we got off track after the. Well, we got on a good track, but we changed gears after the rapid fire game.
35:23 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I'm curious do you have any final words that you'd like to share with those tuning in? Yeah, I'd just like to say that, if anything, start to feel into your body, more into your feelings, and stop intellectualizing them so much. And it's safe to feel your negative emotions and they do go if you fully feel them and breathe into them. They do go after 60 to 90 seconds and I think that would save so many people's lives just by doing that. Just by doing that, your relationships, your health, the way you look after yourself. That's a really great first step to take.
35:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, like, is it a bad day or is it just a bad five minutes? Right, we tend to just like catastrophize everything to make it like life is horrible, and it's like is life horrible or is it really just like in this moment, right now, you're really ticked off, right yeah, but that's great. Just give yourself a chance to self-regulate. You know we have that power and it's beautiful when we know we have it, because then we're just more empowered.
36:15 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Definitely. Thanks so much. Thank you, it's been my honor to be on. Thank you so much.
36:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Might as well. All right, I want you to take advantage of Melissa's trauma-informed certification and courses. She's offering a lot of free resources that you can put in your toolbox that brain candy jar that you got a lot of free resources that you can put in your toolbox that brain candy jar that you got. I'll add that in the podcast notes of this episode, along with her book Natural High Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and Finding Inner Peace, plus more on her root cause therapy and the Center for Healing, and we talked a lot about ways that you can be kind to your mind during this conversation, finding ways to heal the healer in you. One way that you can do that is with Havening techniques. If you want to learn more about Havening and how it can change your brain, I dropped a link in the podcast notes as well on ways to connect with me. Remember to give this podcast and this episode a little love. Just by leaving a rating or review. You are making a difference.
37:14
Wherever you are tuning in, we are on all podcast platforms, including Apple, Spotify, and even YouTube. I love hearing from you week after week and I appreciate all your shares HIListically Speaking is edited 2Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and supported by you. So thank you. I appreciate you every day. I know there is a lot of podcasts that are out there. You're choosing to join me every week. It is a gift to have you here and I am truly grateful. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.
Before she was designing holistic spaces, Gala Magriñá was living large in the fashion industry. But no amount of partying and rubbing elbows with celebs created a happy space, inside or out. That is until she realized that investing in your personal space is investing in yourself. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, discover how holistic interior design goes beyond the aesthetics and considers the mind, body, and spirit approach that's necessary to create mindful spaces that support inner healing and personal growth. You'll walk away with a new perspective of what it means to create a respite that flows and flourishes personally and professionally. Download and listen to this conversation on any podcast platform. https://pod.link/hilisticallyspeaking Grab The Badass books series Gala and Hilary talked about! You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life, Jen Sincero https://amzn.to/3KjV99l (Amazon) Get all four books! You Are a Badass Series 4 Books Collection Set by Jen Sincero (You Are a Badass, You Are a Badass at Making Money, You Are a Badass Every Day & Badass Habits, Jen Sincero https://amzn.to/4dRn3qS (Amazon) CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS 00:00 Intro 00:27 What does holistic mean to you? 03:24 Gala’s story: From fashion to functional living 08:05 Design and Well-Being Connection 13:31 Navigating Stressful Transitions in Design 11:02 Personalized Wellness Practices 18:15 Creating Sanctuary-Like Spaces 24:51 Beyond Spaces 26:55 Interior Design Methodology 32:48 Rapid Fire Game 34:52. Investing in your space is investing in yourself 35:06 Hilary Close CONNECT WITH GALA https://www.instagram.com/galamagrinadesign https://www.linkedin.com/in/galamagrina/ GALA'S DESIGN COURSE (launching in Sept 2024) https://galamagrinadesign.com/beyond-spaces-course/ PUT THE HEALING IN YOUR HANDS WITH HAVENING https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
GRAB MY DISCOUNT ON HOLISTIC HEALTH COURSES AT IIN https://sldr.page.link/4byd CONNECT WITH HILARY https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
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