Kingsley sits down with Jasmine Opperman, former spy turned security analyst. She once got a phone call from a distressed parent to help talk a teenager out of a decision to go to Syria and join ISIS. She explains how she did it and how she's gone on to do this for more and more young people around South Africa. We also learn why she thinks the caliphate is imploding and why we should all be worried about current South African and global counter-terrorism efforts. www.cliffcentral.com