Hybrid Ministry

By Nick ClasonBusiness Religion & Spirituality Christianity Technology Marketing

Hybrid Ministry episodes

November 17, 2022 Episode 018: The Do's, Don'ts and lessons learned from launching a YouTube channel for your church in 2022
SUMMARY
In this Episode Nick explains and explores his experience with YouTube. What he learned from launching a YouTube channel during COVID, and his new recommendation for churches and ministry leaders for delivering useful content online for Gen Z and Gen Alpha and beyond.
Follow us on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or get FREE transcripts at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or find more written content like this from Nick at http://www.myyouthmin.com
TIMECODES
00:00-00:36 - Intro
00:36-07:22 - The lessons I've learned from starting a YouTube channel during COVID
07:22-10:31 - Why start with YouTube?
10:31-13:13 - How to get indexed in searches on YouTube
13:13-16:26 - Ministry Implications
16:26-20:36 - YouTube Best Practices
20:36-22:09 - Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? And welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Excited to be with you today. I am Nick Clason, your host, and today I wanted to talk about YouTube, and I actually wanted to talk about why I think it is useful for churches to quit live streaming their sermons. Now, hear me out. Hear me out. Before I dive into all that, let me just get a couple of things off the bat here said. So first and foremost, I wanna talk about YouTube. I don't like to talk about things on this show that I don't have a lot of experience with. And so today is an exception because I have almost zero experience with YouTube. And so for you to understand why and why and the history and everything like that, I just want to give a quick overview. So the church that I most recently served at, not where I am now, but where I most recently before here served at, had a almost 600 YouTube subscriber channel and over 300 or something like that, videos published on it.
Nick Clason (01:22):
The reason for that being that we started our YouTube channel and our YouTube show, the first day of Covid. And so our YouTube channel and strategy was primarily a digital version of what we would do if we were in the room. So we would think, let's do a game. And in our defense, I think what we did game wise and announcement wise and host wise was a little more YouTube centric than just simply throwing a camera in the back of the room and us pretending there were students there. But instead we were doing it a live stream. So what I mean by that is we built a studio and instead of a game, a screen game or something, we would do a segment. And it was almost like competition or challenge based. So I mean, if you think Mr. Beast or any of those big YouTubers, it was things like that.
Nick Clason (02:27):
So we were trying to think outside the box and trying to morph and do student ministry in a YouTube sort of way. One of the things that I think shot us in the foot was, first of all, we did it in a pinch. So we did it immediately and we pivoted very fast. And what we did and what we created, I personally was very proud of. But all that being said, once Covid began to run its course and things were over and opening a little bit more, people were looking for an in-person experience. And so what we were producing online was really no longer fulfilling the need that it needed to. So it probably needed an adjustment, and we started to make those adjustments. And what I mean by that is once Covid was over and kids were not stuck in their room, they're probably not that interested in our little segment or our little trivia game that we're playing or whatever on the screen.
Nick Clason (03:29):
But I do think that we had tons of formidable and useful spiritual content sermons, messages, whatever and whatnot that were totally useful. The problem was we did it in a full, long form show, so to speak. And so just youth group games and announcements and worship and all those things led into the message. And so you didn't get to the message until about 16 minutes on the actual YouTube thing. Typically the shows around 30 minutes or so. And so it was about half stuff and half a message. You get it If you're programming in the room, it's exactly what you would think as far as format wise, okay? And all of that. I was at a multi-site megachurch. All of that was handled by a creative team, a video editor, an audio producer, our tech department handled that, handled, uploading, posting, making it live, all those things.
Nick Clason (04:29):
And so I helped produce the content. I helped think through some of the philosophy and the strategy of it, but I was not boots on the ground in the weeds, hands on with doing, posting all the YouTube content and growing the channel. And in a lot of ways, the 600 something subs subscribers were a response to what happened during Covid, right? Everyone was subscribing to YouTube channels. Everyone that called our church home, parents, students alike, they subscribing to our channel. All right? So now fast forward to where I am now, and I'm at a little bit smaller church. We got a team of three, but we have around the same student count, or slightly more than the campus that I was at. And so we have a pretty frequent schedule Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. So every three days, there's something that we need to be thinking for, planning for, and prepping for.
Nick Clason (05:26):
Not to mention, the entire team of where I'm at is completely brand new. And so we are basically building something from the ground up. There was some stuff in place before and whatever and whatnot. But the reality is we're starting from the ground up. One of the things that we're starting from the ground up, we're continuing on with the Wednesday meeting times, Sunday meeting times, but we're launching and fleshing out a completely digital strategy. And so with all that being said, I wanna just give that caveat to this is my experience with YouTube. I have been very involved in the production of YouTube content. I've learned a lot of things, some dos and don'ts and whatevers and whatnots. But also we are at the church of, we are gonna be changing our name here in January. And so I actually secured the YouTube channel for our future name of our student ministry, which is still a secret to a lot of people.
Nick Clason (06:28):
So because of that, I have not started posting things to YouTube. What I have started doing is I have started beta testing our YouTube strategy more on a video filming and editing side of things. Is this a sustainable and scalable process that I can continue to implement beyond on a week to week type basis? And so I've been practicing some things, and so I think I feel pretty good about the workflow and rhythm to be able to pull some of these things off. And so I'm excited about launching a YouTube channel and account in January knowing that I'll be able to replicate what I've been doing. So that's sort the background and the history of at least my personal experience with YouTube. So why start with YouTube? Alright, I think YouTube is, is actually a really unique social media platform. It's the only one of its kind in the category of Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube is owned by Google, and it's the only social media platform in that category of those kind of core FI four or five that is owned by Google.
Nick Clason (07:52):
So you got Google, you got Meta, and then you got TikTok, who's sort of like the third player, the owner there in that, right? You've probably heard this before, but YouTube is actually widely considered by many to be the second largest search engine in the world behind only Google. Some if you get real nitty gritty with it, some actually say it's not the second largest, it's the third largest because Google Images is technically larger. Bottom line, all three, Google search, Google images and YouTube are owned by the same parent company, Google. And regardless of that, right? YouTube is a search engine. And so who among us has not installed a light fixture from the help of a friendly person who posted a YouTube tutorial on YouTube for us to watch and consume and use, Okay? And because it's a search engine, I think it's actually a pretty strategic advantage that can be used by us as pastors and ministry leaders.
Nick Clason (08:55):
Because if you think about it, when you search for a video, right? Search more how to or think how to fix, how to answer, how to do this, how to navigate this. So, or challenge us to think YouTubers rather than pastors or speakers. And I think that was one of our number one Achilles heels in where I was before. We were thinking YouTubers in a lot of ways, but in our, for example, and I'll get to this in a minute, but in our titling and in our thumbnails, we were treating this as series, the series Jesus series, Part three, March 1st. That's not a compelling, in captivating title for our audience who is with us every week and just wants to get on there and watch something on demand that may be helpful. But to someone who's gonna organically come across our YouTube content, that doesn't explain anything about what's in the video.
Nick Clason (09:59):
So why is live streaming problematic particularly? And full disclosure, I'm a student pastor. And so if you're watching this in a senior pastor and your church has good cameras, good audio equipment, good lighting to fully embrace a live streaming strategy, then by all means continue to do that. But if you're a youth pastor, I would not necessarily recommend building the gear, the switcher, the infrastructure of live streaming. All right, So let's talk about watch times. Cause this plays into it. According to a backlink.dot com, they surveyed and looked at 1.3 million YouTube videos to try and better understand the YouTube search feature and algorithm. What they determined was that longer videos significantly outperform shorter videos. And the average length of a first page YouTube video that's beneficial and helpful is 14 minutes and 50 seconds. All right? So you need to understand that the way that YouTube indexes and categorizes their videos is a combination of two things.
Nick Clason (11:15):
Overall, watch time paired with average percentage viewed. And so it turns out that videos in the 14 to 16 minute range actually index really well. In fact, those are the highest ones on search. There are other factors of things that help increase watch times, such as the hook or the intro. All right, So let's just think in the land of sermon delivering a sermon, Okay? I want you to just rank these two scenarios. Scenario number one. Hey everybody, welcome back. Real quick before I dive into tonight's message, I wanna remind you about the Churchwide Bake sales. It's coming up on Sunday, and if you want to earn money toward the mission trip, it is required that you be in attendance. If for some reason you can't make it, just be sure to talk to me afterwards. All right? Now, last week when we were in part three of our series, Jesus, we were reminded that Jesus was bonded together with his disciples because of their love.
Nick Clason (12:14):
And so tonight, what I wanna focus on in part four is what happens after the death burial and then ultimately resurrection of Jesus, right? That's scenario number one. That's you preaching to your congregation, your students, the people that call your church home. Let's talk about scenario number two. Hey, what if you could win a million dollars? What if I told you that the message of Jesus is actually one that supersedes and rises far above the benefits of winning millions and millions of dollars? Do you see how one at least has the intention of a hook? I don't know if it's good or not, right? That's why I say in fairness, I'm not a YouTube sivan or expert, but I want you, I wanna challenge you to think like a YouTuber. And so where one is taking care of housekeeping in your student ministry, what's going on the bake sale? The second one is actually thinking about YouTube first. It's creating a hook. So what are some implications for ministry? Well, first of all, a 30 to 45 minute sermon where the speaker is presenting primarily to a room full of people versus not really looking or paying attention to the camera. It's just there. Capturing them, doesn't act, Doesn't exactly right. Speak YouTube's preferred language. Think about it, in a live room environment anyway, messages between the length of 10 to 25 minutes seem to have become a pretty optimal length for student ministries who gather in person.
Nick Clason (13:51):
And I also think that if you take your YouTube or if you take your message content that you're going to already naturally deliver into a room, what I'm gonna actually propose here is that instead of capturing you delivering live to your room, I'm gonna propose that you prefill your content. And what happens is when you prefill your content, number one, you can create and craft a hook that is specific in particular for YouTube. Secondly, you can shave the time down to fit into that 14 to 16 minute window. Even if you go longer in the room, aim for that 14 to 16 minute window. And third, it gives you the opportunity to practice your message before you get up there and deliver it to a live room full of teenagers or parishioners or congregation members. And so that's one of the things that we've been doing.
Nick Clason (14:58):
We teach live every single Wednesday night, but during that week, after I'm done with my prep, I sit down, I put up a camera and iFilm my message. Then I do a little bit of post production, I add a sound bed behind it. I do some flying in graphics, lower thirds slides, and I put those on the screen as well. And that's gonna be our strategy for YouTube. Why? Number one, it's gonna let us do a YouTube first messaging. We're not gonna bury it behind a bunch of other elements. We're gonna go with the message first. If YouTube is in fact a search engine and kids are out there searching for answers to their faith, then let's give them the answers to their faith. And they might not care about our church announcements. They might not care about the worship, but what they do want is they want answers.
Nick Clason (15:45):
So answer the question, tell them what you're gonna talk about with the hook right up front at the very beginning of the video. And that for me is one of the hardest shifts, is moving from holding my ace content up my sleeve until the very end, waiting for the message to climax, but instead giving a teaser and a preview at the very beginning of the message. That's a shift. YouTubers do that really well. Pastors build to their ultimate conclusion, and so they try to create this mystery around what's gonna come. But the reality is on YouTube, if you don't hook them right off the bat immediately, then they are gone and on to the next thing. And so think like a YouTuber. Let's talk through some other YouTube best practices. Like I said, make sure your titling is something that a YouTuber would search for as opposed to Jesus Week three, Mark 14, one through 10.
Nick Clason (16:39):
That's not as captivating a title as Is hell a real place dealing with crippling anxiety or is rest even possible? You see the difference between those two. Think YouTube, think search engine, think click bait, think controversial type titles that help your video perform better because it's a search engine. The meta description or the title, the description of the video, those things all play a huge role in the YouTube ranking. So make sure you spend a little bit of time thinking through and crafting some good compelling descriptions. And then you can also link to things on your church's website or social media, or maybe even some products in the description of your video. Also include tags. YouTube gives you a spot to do that. So include keywords from your videos or tags that relate back to the topic. All three of those factors, title, description, tags, all play a role in the searchability of your YouTube content.
Nick Clason (17:33):
Also, your thumbnail plays plays a role. Go look at Mr. Beast. He's like number one, YouTuber in the world. Go look at his thumbnails on his YouTube channel and just get some photos with a decent iPhone, maybe a Google Pixel phone to take some halfway decent portrait shots. Throw some catchy text over it using maybe something like PowerPoint Canva, or if you have more skill Photoshop and use different catchy thumbnails to try on your videos. You can also then use a free tool like trends.google.com to look up your searchable words and compare things. AB testing. If you wanted to use the word fear versus the word anxiety, put those into trends.google.com. And you'll notice that anxiety has a higher search level. So use that.
Nick Clason (18:25):
And then also comments and shares and people embedding your videos are all things that are gonna help index it better in the YouTube algorithm. So ask for things like comments, ask for things like shares, and then on the embedding feature, try to embed your YouTube videos onto your church website onto your, And so then your website is hosting your YouTube video and embedding it already helps index it better. So you already have a platform that people are going to. So use that. That's a feature that's already built in and that can help you get going. All right, what if you're just starting? What starting gear do you need, right? Listen, if you're gonna go budget friendly, get a nice smartphone, right? I just gotta Google Pixel, the latest iPhone have some great things. One of the main things for filming is you need a separate microphone, Okay?
Nick Clason (19:24):
So you can get, just go on Amazon, do a quick search for a shotgun microphone with your style of phone connection that's needed. You can get something for under a hundred bucks. You can also get a lapel, a wireless lapel lighting. Natural lighting is great. Some ring lights can help. Do the trick. Get a tripod that you can stick your phone on. If you want a more professional rig, then listen. Just go to YouTube, search best YouTube starter set for gear, and you'll find something. I love everything that Brady Sheer from Pro Church Tools has to say just about anything in the church digital space. And in fact, I think the day I'm recording this, he yesterday just trapped a video on his favorite camera gear. So go copy that if you got the budget to do it and make it happen. And then you're just gonna have to do things like edit, and you're gonna figure out you wanna use iMovie, Da Vinci, Resolve Adobe Final Cut Pro.
Nick Clason (20:20):
Again, budget for some of those are cheaper, like iMovie and Da Vinci Resolve are free. More expensive options are the Adobe Suite or Final Cut Pro. You're just gonna have to see what you have and what's available out there. But listen, my recommendation, again, like I said, get on YouTube. Treat it like a search engine. Get out there. Put your message, the message of hope that you have about Jesus. Create a YouTube channel. Prefill your content or film it after you deliver it. If you want it to be a little bit more polished and you've a little bit more familiar with it, and just start posting some stuff out there, right? Try some things. Follow some of these best practices. You may not go viral overnight. I can't promise that, but these are some of the best practices out there on YouTube. And so simply following them is just gonna give you the best chance to be discovered.
Nick Clason (21:12):
And that's the goal. We want students, teenagers, or people wrestling with faith to come across the content that we have to offer, and hopefully give them something that's helpful. And this is just a way to expand your impact and your reach as a youth pastor, as a regular pastor in 2022 and beyond. Hey, I hope you guys found this episode helpful. If you did get, Man, leave us a rating or a review. We are on iTunes, Spotify, all the major podcast platforms, hybrid ministry. We're also on Twitter at hybrid ministry. We have full transcripts of everything. We provide this to y'all at hybridministry.xyz Come check us out there and we will talk to you guys.
23 min
November 10, 2022 Episode 017: The Ultimate Social Media Framework for Churches to Reach Milennials, Gen Z and Gen Alpha in 2022 and Beyond
SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick talks through the core reasons why a Hybrid Strategy is the most effective way to reach the younger generations of milennials, Generation Z and Generation Alpha in 2022 and beyond.
For Transcripts and more head to http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Or join the conversation with us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
SHOWNOTES
https://myyouthmin.com/
TIMECODES
00:00-02:40 Intro
02:40-05:33 Why Social Media is important for reaching people in 2022 and beyond?
05:33-10:01 Digital Ministry is not Physical Ministry and vice versa
10:01-13:14 How people interact with organizations and companies
13:14-15:31 Becoming All Things to All People
15:31-18:56 So now what do we do?
18:56-22:29 Final Encouragement
22:29-23:41 Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason. Excited to be here with you this morning. And today on this episode, I wanted to talk and walk through a social media framework for 2022, the ultimate guide on how to reach Generation Z millennials and soon to be, I was just challenged on this week soon to be Generation Alpha. So recently I was asked by Youth Ministry 360 YM360 based out of Birmingham to write one of their modules for their MYM which is short for My Youth Mein. It's a training portal, training hub that they have on their website. And so I'm actually gonna have this coming out in December of 2022 on their YM page. And so I'm in the middle of a writing it, so it's not all the way flushed out yet, but there are some things I have already put together for it.
Nick Clason (01:25):
And so if you wanna see that full version, I'll just encourage you to head over there to that website by the 1st of December to check that out. It is behind a paywall. There is a five day free trial, I believe. So if that's something that interests you, go and check it out to see it in written form. But I'm gonna process some of my thoughts with you all here on this podcast and just work through it. And then honestly, I'm probably gonna go back and listen to this and use it as a piece and part of my research prep, whatever, to flesh out and build out the remaining pieces. So it's building a seven step framework for social media in 2022. Part one and part seven are gonna be introductory and concluding pieces. And then parts one through five are going to be looking at platforms like YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, emailing slash texting. So five is email and text. Put two in one. So all that to be said, the ultimate social media guide. Why that? Okay, so what we know about Generation Z what we know about millennials we've chatted about it here on this podcast, but I did find some new research to back it. So this generation, Generation Z in particular, is actually the very first generation to use their mobile
Nick Clason (02:59):
Device more frequently than all other devices combined. So in preexisting generations, millennials, Gen X, so on, so forth they did not use their cell phone or their mobile device more frequently. Then the combined use of other devices, tv, video games, computer, laptop, you fill in the blank, right? Generation Z is statistically the first generation to use their mobile device more frequently. What does that tell us? It tells us that they're mobile first. They are the first smartphone generation, essentially. And so that does bode to make sense, and that is something that you would probably expect. However, with research coming out to back it up, it's super interesting, fascinating. So right then again, the question is what do we do with that? Millennials and also Gen Z say that a hybrid version of church will suit their needs going forward in a post pandemic world. That obviously comes from bar's research six questions about hybrid ministry in a post pandemic world.
Nick Clason (04:14):
And then finally, lastly this statistic I came across that says that greater than 80% of 18 to 29 year olds, which is the youngest age data available legally, because you can't pull anyone younger than 18 but greater than 80% of that age bracket use at least one social media app regularly, which of all the age breakdowns is the highest, right? And it's assumed that even younger gen z gen alpha, remember I'm writing this for a youth ministry a youth ministry training thing. So I'm focused particularly on teenagers, not just church, but you as a church leader pastor, ministry leader this 18 to a nine year old, this should matter regardless, right? I'm trying to skew it even younger than that for this project. But they use at least one social media app regularly. So my conclusion on that is what this shows us is what we may already know in our gut, the digital ministry digital engagement is not going anywhere.
Nick Clason (05:29):
I do think that there's a notion that came out kind of post pandemic, that digital didn't work because anecdotally, all of us spent months separated from one another. And as soon as that was over six months, 12 months, 18 months, or however long it took for us to be locked down under certain layers of covid protocols, we all knew that we wanted to get back together. Depending on where you were and what part of the world, world and how you're doing ministry, there's this gut feeling of like, we gotta get back together. And that's a hundred percent a true statement. Human beings, we are social creatures. And so removing all forms of human interaction is of course gonna have some adverse effects. But I think that what happened was we all did in churches, we tried to take something that was being offered for an in-person experience, church service, gathering together small groups worshiping God through singing collectively as a congregation.
Nick Clason (06:28):
And then we tried to reproduce or even replicate the absolute identical experience or expression in an online forum, church, live streams, worship services, and those don't work or play in that same vein as well. And so you're getting a lesser product B in every other facet area of your life. You're being forced to sit out in relationships with other people. And so I know that in our student ministry, we went hardcore after digital ministry and it helped kind of facilitate and flush out our future our future version of student ministry. But the reality is it did not ultimately fill the void that was left by not gathering. So my conclusion, one you've probably heard before on this podcast is that in person environments centered around the gathering of believers helps fulfill a specific purpose. And digital environments also help fulfill a specific different purpose. The word different there is important, okay?
Nick Clason (07:41):
Because everything on social media has a reason, has a purpose and it is not to just replicate, redo, and fulfill what's going on in person. And so in a post pandemic landscape, those two things, both digital and in person, I think got pitted against one another. At least I know in the ministry context that I was in, there were debates and people were wondering, does online work, does in person work? And so I was forced to take a side. And as you know, if you've been a listener of this podcast for any length of time, the side I'm gonna take, I'm going to take digital, I'm going to defend digital. I think that it is an incredible tool that is unique to the time period that we are in. And one that I believe if any of the writers of scripture, apostles, whatever were around, they would be using digital to help expand their message and help expand the message of the gospel that's available to us through Jesus alone.
Nick Clason (08:55):
And so we got sort of pitted in this digital versus physical. I don't know about your context, but I know in the context that I was in, I don't work there anymore, but that I was in, that was a hot debate, Is it working? And if not, then we need to just come back and do this. And the reality is, I always had to find myself arguing, standing against digital. And then I realized once I left that what we were doing in digital is not able to fully replace and supplement the purposes of in-person church. So yeah, of course we're gonna see lesser results from that. We gotta figure out where to shoot it in the middle, where we can be hybrid. So it's not about a preference anymore. We don't live in a world that's black and white with in person being black, digital being white, and you have to pick one or the other.
Nick Clason (09:52):
We live in this sticky middle called hybrid. Hence why I have this name, the hybrid ministry podcast. I like to use the analogy of my relationship with Home Depot, right? Saturday mornings I activate my full dad mode, throwing on my new balances, my cargo shorts, my dad hats set out to accomplish some DIY project. And the only place that is possible to go and do that get materials and all the things is none other than the Home Depot. I know in your mind you are queuing the Home Depot theme song. So as I head to Home Depot, think about this, sometimes I drive over to the hardware store, I walk around, I explore, I just enjoy breathing the same Home Depot air with the other cargo, short new balance wearing dads just like me. That's a physical experience. Sometimes though, I get on the Home Depot website or the app and I order supplies to be delivered directly to my doorstep later on that week.
Nick Clason (10:51):
That's a fully digital experience of me interacting with Home Depot. And finally, probably honestly, the most usual thing I do is while I'm at Home Depot and I can't freaking find what I'm looking for, do you know what I do? I pull open the Home Depot app, I go to my specific store and the location finder, I look up what I'm looking for, and then when the app is able to tell me exactly which ILE in which bay number I can find my specific product in, boom, I'm in. And I'm out in all of those scenarios. I am a Home Depot customer, but I'm engaging with the company in three completely different ways. I'm engaging with them in person, I'm engaging with them through their digital means and presence. And I'm also using them in a hybrid form while I'm there using their digital app.
Nick Clason (11:43):
And I personally believe I'm pretty staunch about this, that the gospel is the greatest story ever written and ever told. And if we're working to reach our people with that exact same message that I think we should challenge them to engage with our church in all three arenas in person, digital, hybrid, in fact, more than just challenge them to engage with us in all three, I would actually challenge you. I would challenge me, I would challenge us as ministry leaders to find ways that is not just reproducing, replicating creating exact representations of what's going on in our church building. I'd find ways to permeate those three spaces. Think about this, right? If our only strategy to reach new students or to reach, I'm a youth pastor, I told you I'm writing this for why I'm through 60, but to reach new students or to reach other congregation members, if our only strategy is to invite kids to join in on our turf, on our space during our meeting time, during our program time, and then turn around and send those same kids to live out 167 other hours of their week beyond what just happened to live out their faith, is that enough?
Nick Clason (13:05):
And I don't know that it is, right? Yes, it is not our job to fully live out our students faith, but I'm reminded of what Paul says in First Corinthians nine. Here's what he says nine 19 through 23, Though I am free and I belong to no one, what I've done is I've made myself a slave to everyone to win as many as possible to the Jews. It became like a Jew to win the Jews to those under the law. I became the one under the law. Though I myself am not under the law so as to win those under the law to those not having the law, I became like one. Not having the law, though I'm not free from God's law, but I'm under Christ's law. And so as to win those not having the law to the weak, I became weak to win the weak.
Nick Clason (13:51):
I've become all things to all people so that by all means possible, ready, I might save some. And I do this for the sake of the gospel so that I might share in its blessings. If over 80% of mobile users are using at least one social media app regularly, how can we become all things to all people? The way that Paul says it, how can we show up where our students are already choosing to spend their time? So I believe that one way to do that is through a robustly flushed out social media and marketing strategy. We talked about this in an episode about the myth of marketing. And back when Matt was on the pod regularly, he said We were asking, Is it wrong to market Jesus? And he said, Don't think about marketing in the traditional sense of marketing. Our church has billboards and ads.
Nick Clason (14:52):
Though you may have those things, there's nothing wrong with those things. But what the goal ultimately of marketing is to build an awareness. And Seth Godin says, in an attempt to change the world through our messaging. And I would think, and I would argue that most of us as church or ministry leaders, we exist to make a difference in the world, to change the world through our message. And if we can do that beyond our once a week in person program gatherings, I think we should. So what do we do? So social media, church communications, they've taken on some interesting forms in recent years. Like, here's how this would go. A new social media platform would emerge. The church, of course would resist it. And then once widespread adoption by its members became a reality in something that was undeniable anymore, the church would then jump into that platform and it would view it as a good communication tool or a good means to an end to get the word across.
Nick Clason (16:04):
And so then, if you're ministry leader, church leader, pastor, you get this when the whirlwind, when the busyness of leaders, youth pastors, rather than creating a specific tailor made digital influence, discipleship focused social media strategy, it would basically turn that social media into a billboard saying, Hey, if you want, all I have to offer from a discipleship social media strategy framework, you have to drive over to my building and come to this event. Like I said earlier, social media platforms each have an individual purpose. They all have best practices to reach the audience or our congregation that is following us on those platforms. And we're able to use those to find and reach more people with the message of the gospel. Often, like I said, what happens is, no offense to your graphic design prowess, but your church-wide potluck graphic is probably not going to be as mesmerizing to outsiders as you are hoping that it would be.
Nick Clason (17:09):
And it's not. People are not just gonna accidentally scroll past your graphic about the church wide potluck and just come strolling into your church's C Gymatorium to eat t Sally's famous potato salad, No shade to t Sally. I'm sure that the recipe that she has for her potato salad truly is a one of a kind, but that is not gonna be your ultimate win on social media. The odds are that if you're reading this, if you're listening to this as a ministry leader, then you instinctively know this, that just posting graphics of your events is really not going to be the best way to run or do social media. And maybe even as a ministry leader, youth pastor, you have been shoulder tapped or shoulder maybe even voluntold, to become the church's communications director and social media manager, But to keep your head above water to post regularly, to do communication, to lead your ministry well, to communicate with parents, leaders, students, to prep messages that are good and relevant, and to plan amazing and awesome events to even maybe run the sound booth on Sunday morning in big church worship services.
Nick Clason (18:21):
Cuz you're the only one under the age of 30 in your church gnawing inside of you. You're aware that social media matters, that the stats that we've talked about, Gen Z using their phone more than any other device, that they want a hybrid experience with church, that over 80% use at least one app on a regular basis. So what do we do? How do we build out flesh out this robust social media platform? Like I said, the remainder of this project is gonna be on Nym YM three sixty.com. Head there, grab a free trial, love to encourage you to check that out if that's something that you're interested in. But before we leave, I just want to offer a couple of encouragements and reminders because maybe saying this, you're like, Yeah, gosh, dang, man, I know I need to do something, right? Okay, There's gonna be a lot to build out in a social media framework.
Nick Clason (19:26):
Okay, Here's my encouragements to you. Number one, you don't have to try and do it all, and you definitely don't have to try and do it all tomorrow, But as we walk through this, as we look at different platforms, as you dive in YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, email, texting, choose one platform that's gonna work in your context and go all in on that. First, as a ministry leader, I just wanna encourage you doing a great job. I mean, I don't know specifically, but if you have that tension, that pressure, that feeling of trying to do all these things, it means that you care and you're probably doing an amazing job in the areas that you are working on. And I want to just let you know, and I wanna encourage you to keep your head above water, right? It's gonna be okay. It's gonna work out learning a new platform. Honestly, it might feel like you have to learn to write a book with your left hand and it can feel clunky, awkward but really, truly, I just wanna encourage you, practice really does make perfect. Right now, I am rolling out a full blown social media strategy for the church that I'm working in which is brand new, and I got two other youth pastors on my team, and we're posting regularly
Nick Clason (20:47):
Three times daily to TikTok, and I can do it, I'm used to it. I've learned TikTok, I'm familiar in the editing framework in the app But the problem with that is twofold. Number one, if I just do it if you go to our TikTok channel, and already it is this way, but because I'm trying to slowly hand more and more stuff off to them, if you go there, you're gonna see a lot of me, and we're a team of three. And so our digital expression does not fully represent who we really are because there's three of us, not just me. And so that's problem number one. Problem number two is it's not beneficial for me to hoard and hold it all right? So I need to get them up to speed and feeling comfortable editing things so that they're also on social media and we're seeing their representation on our TikTok account.
Nick Clason (21:52):
And then finally, this one dovetails very closely to what I just said and list some help. Get on this with some friends, maybe some coworkers, maybe even use some students in your church, in your ministry who are much more native to some of these platforms. You don't have to try and learn it on your own because honestly, remember what Paul said, our job as pastors and ministry leaders is to equip the saints for works and acts of service. So that is the goal. The goal is not for you to be holding onto it all and entirely. So, hey guys, thank you so much for hanging out today on this episode. If you found this helpful, go download the seven Steps social media framework for reaching Gen Z and Gen Gen Alpha. It's gonna be live on my Youth Min or short MYM on YM360 here soon.
Nick Clason (22:50):
Ugh, it is behind a little bit of a membership paywall. I will warn you of that, but especially if you are in youth ministry, that membership is very much going to be well worth your time. So I'd really encourage you to go check it out and hang out with us. This full transcript is gonna be available hybridministry.xyz if you want to use it as convince your boss or to help thinking through the big picture realities of why social media matters. If you need to talk to a parent, a leader, a pastor, about why this is important, especially for you're in a ministry where you're leading the charge on that or come hang out with us on Twitter @hybridministry. Again, guys, thank you so much for hanging out had fun talking, chatting with y'all, and we will talk again next time.
24 min
November 03, 2022 Episode 016: Derry Prenkert on how the invention of the iPhone has radically changed how Pastors and ministry leaders accomplish the mission
SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick sits down with his friend, Derry Prenkert, a 20+ year youth ministry veteran. Derry shares about the monumental shift of the invention of the smart phone. How things were before, and how things have shifted, but most importantly, how we utilize this technology for our benefit and gain to reach more students for the mission of Jesus.
Follow us on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Find all the resources you need from the podcast http://www.hybridministry.xyz
Follow Derry online:
-TWITTER: https://twitter.com/derryprenkert
-INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/derryprenkert/
-PODCAST: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/my-third-decade-in-youth-ministry/id1338273697
SHOWNOTES
Steve Job's introduction of the iPhone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7qPAY9JqE4
Derry's Parenting Resource: https://www.downloadyouthministry.com/p/adolescence%2C-technology-and-parenting/training-3996.html
Johnny Mac's Stuff: https://yourhouseblend.com/jonnysblend
TIMECODES
00:00-03:30 Intro
03:30-10:53 The impact of the invention of the iPhone
10:53-14:30 What happened in ministry after the invention of the iPhone
14:30-23:20 How have you responded since then?
23:20-32:44 When do you ask phones to be put away?
32:44-41:23 How can we utilize technology now to further and advance God's mission?
41:23-43:38 Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Excited to be with you today. Uh, today we have our very first, uh, guest interview, uh, friend of mine Derry Pinker. He's located in, um, Amish town, Nape Indiana. Um, right now, uh, he worked at that church for over 20 years, and then he was at another church for just a couple years, super large church in, uh, Kentucky. So, um, excited to bring you Derry's conversation. Uh, he mentions a couple of different links. He talks about Steve Jobs' keynote, a resource that he has on download youth ministry and echo ministry. I'm gonna include all of those in the show notes, but without any further ado, let's just hop in so you can get to know Derry.
Nick Clason (00:51):
All right, well, what's up Derry? Good to have you on the podcast. Welcome, man.
Derry Prenkert (00:56):
Yeah, it's so good to be with you, Nick. Thanks for having me on.
Nick Clason (00:58):
Yeah. So as we were talking a little bit before I hit record here, you have a podcast or did, or what would you define the, the existence of your podcast? Right Now?
Derry Prenkert (01:11):
The status of my third decade. It is, it has been on the longest hiatus ever. Um, yeah. And it is coming back. Um, it's tied to this whole world of the shift that I've, I've made from being in a local church to now serving pastors in the local church. Yeah. And I'm in a season of getting all the groundwork laid for that. I, uh, have every intention, every intention by, uh, early 2023 that it's gonna launch back out. And there are some, there are actually some things already recorded for it, so, so it hasn't completely gone away. There, there is, there is a future to it.
Nick Clason (01:46):
That's good. Cuz it's still in my podcast catcher, so I'm not unsubscribing from, I just wanna let you know that it's still there. So, um, but back when I mowed the lawn when I worked two churches ago, I think I heard you, um, talk about like, uh, this really big shift in culture and you noticed that it was, uh, have to do with when the iPhone came into existence. Mm-hmm. , just give us a little bit, like give us your story, how long you've been, you know, doing youth ministry, um, and how you have a beneficial perspective of before technology and phones are a part of what we have to navigate and deal with. And then post, and then maybe we can just kind of chat about how we navigate that as, you know, people who are, uh, ministering to people, students, um, who are very much entrenched in this technology, like Lane and world.
Derry Prenkert (02:42):
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, my story is somebody that started in youth ministry at 19 years old. I was just about to turn 20 and I started an internship and that was back in 1996. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I'm old. Um, and so graduated from high school in 95, start in, in ministry in 96. And so I get 11 years of ministry. Um, and in those 11 years, uh, you know, cell phones, car phones were around when I started . Yeah. And cell phones were around when I finished college in 1999. But they were, they roamed the minute you got outside of about 10 miles from your house and you only use them in emergencies. And then, and then it moved into, you know, 2004, 2005, the razor flip. Flum was the coolest thing in the world is texting, kind of entered the picture mm-hmm. . Um, and then, you know, so I, but, but really it was 2007 when Steve Jobs holds up this, this phone.
Derry Prenkert (03:36):
And it's actually interesting to go back and watch, I don't know if you've ever watched that keynote when he does it. No, I should, but, but he, he, he introduces it and is pretty prophetic, like the level of what he's talking about where technology is heading. Cause he said this is gonna revolutionize and change. And he says, he says, What would happen if we were to introduce a computer operating system, a phone and a iPod all in one thing. Yeah. And that's, that's the heartbeat of what they did. Um, and actually I, I do a technology thing with parents, uh, adolescents, technology and parenting. Mm-hmm. , uh, what I do is, I'll actually, it's, it's a fun little exercise cuz if you think about, you got, most parents of teenagers right now are, are there children of the eighties if they're really, if they've got younger, like their youngest kids are teenagers now, nineties or maybe early two thousands mm-hmm. . And so what I do is I'll put up on the screen different, like, what was the technology of our time. And so like, you know, in the eighties you got like VCRs and corded phones and, and a Walkman or a giant computer that has a green screen maybe.
Nick Clason (04:41):
Yeah. I found the VCR yesterday in our building, so that was cool,
Derry Prenkert (04:46):
Dude. And, and did you try playing anything? Cause it probably just ate the tape, right?
Nick Clason (04:49):
Yeah, no, I was like, I don't, I don't even know if we would ever need this, but, Right. Yeah. Here it
Derry Prenkert (04:53):
Is. Yeah. Yeah. It's, see the, in the eighties in technology, like everything got fixed by blowing on it. Um, so like the VHS tape wasn't working. You blew on it. The, the Nintendo cartridge. Yep. You blew in that and then blew in the box. Mm-hmm. . So that was, you know, eighties in the nineties, you have cell phones come, you got the Discman mm-hmm. that I remember. I would, as the nineties I would run or exercise with a discman, but I had to be careful not to run too hard because the CD would skip Yeah.
Nick Clason (05:17):
As I skipping. I
Derry Prenkert (05:18):
Remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, early two thousands social media in MySpace shows up. Yep. But, you know, garins show up, Uhhuh, um, digital cameras are a big deal in another 2000 flat screen TVs. Right. So we walk through these different, different moments and I say in 2007, Steve Jobs holds up this, this little device. And everything I just said was around in those different decades now lives inside this single device. Mm. Interesting. It is your video games. It is your music, you know, it's your disc man, it's your VCR or your DVD player. It is your
Nick Clason (05:53):
Computer, your calendar. Yeah.
Derry Prenkert (05:55):
Yeah. It's everything. It's all there. And, and so for parents, it's just saying like, recognize how significant this shift is. And so for those of us in ministry, if we are in that age, it's important to recognize that for those of us that are, I I, a lot of youth pastors are maybe a little, um, younger than the parents that they have. Right. Remember, like, these are the parents you're working with that, that this shift has happened. It might be a little more native to you as a youth pastor if you're in your, your mid to early twenties mm-hmm. . But it's foreign. It's, it's, it's so different and, and it's, it's changed so much. Um, the two things to kind of say, when I look at youth culture, cuz that's where I spent a lot of my time Yeah. That I would say are huge, is, uh, one youth group in church.
Derry Prenkert (06:40):
I was at a church that ha drew from multiple high schools. And pre 2007, we were the place to go to connect with friends. Hmm. Um, now we saw God move and we were, we were, we were unapologetic that that wasn't the, that wasn't the primary point. The primary point was to encounter a relationship with Jesus, to understand your call, to be a part of this kingdom work. But the appeal for my kids, I'm gonna drop names that nobody knows from Wawa c high school at Northwood High School. Mm-hmm. and Goshan High School. Someone knows each other. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, uh, they can meet weekly at our place. Right. Uh, now with the institution of not only, you know, the, just the move of the cell phone with texting, but then once the iPhone came in, it wasn't just you, you could, you didn't have to go there to meet a place you could actually interact face to face, you know, through FaceTime, through, through, um, whatever it might be.
Derry Prenkert (07:33):
Google Meet all do different stuff. You could, you could do that over the phone. So it became less important. The other thing that's super intriguing is, I don't know about Eich, but the greatest day of my life, uh, as a teenager was when I turned 16 in one month in my town, because that was the day I could get my driver's license. Yeah. And by getting my driver's license, that meant a whole new, uh, level of freedom, empowerment, and ownership. Like that driver's license was my ticket to independence. Yeah. I've noticed, um, a major change. I can't believe how many kids I interact with that are like 16, 17 and, you know, we're doing an event. They're like, Hey, can I get a ride? I'm like, You don't have your license yet. Yeah. No. And, and, and, and I I don't have like the scientific proof to this, just the conversation.
Derry Prenkert (08:25):
Sure. It's, they're like, Why would I, why would I need it? Well, yeah, the big shift came like that that license was my way to get to my friends. Mm-hmm. and my community. Now, this, this thing that we can hold in our hands is our ticket to interact. And so, so like one of the, I guess like the big implication that I would throw out that is huge is it it has radically transformed our connectivity mm-hmm. , um, even with the people right next to us. Yeah. Um, so I mean, so many other thoughts, but there's, those are just a couple things like that we recognize. Another way I say it is like we basically now are carrying around super computers in our pockets. Yeah. That, uh, it's, they are that we're, we have, we have excessive, uh, access to information. We are, we are constantly connected. Um, and it's like invasive, you know, it's not like it's, when's the last time I I I, you can answer this or the people are listening, When's the last time you actually turned off powered down your phone
Nick Clason (09:26):
On your own? Well, mine's new, so never
Derry Prenkert (09:29):
Yeah. .
Nick Clason (09:30):
Right,
Derry Prenkert (09:30):
Right. And it's, it's like impossible to, like, they've made it so it's hard to do. And so it's always there. Now, now I might sound like I'm interesting. Yeah. I'm negative on this. I do mourn more in some things because I'm old and I'm an old guy sitting saying, Get off my lawn kids. You know, a little bit. But, um, but those are some of the things that I think are big that have changed. And so, so just the way we go about ministry has to change with it. It is in my mind, we measure time on before and after like, events that come to mind in youth ministry world, most youth pastors that were around before Columbine mm-hmm. and after Columbine, they know it changed the way you had to handle liabilities and safety
Nick Clason (10:10):
Measures. Yeah.
Derry Prenkert (10:11):
Mm-hmm. pre nine 11. Post nine 11 as a, as a culture, our life shifted on how we view, uh, things pre covid, post covid. We're still learning that all. Yeah. I still could make the argument pre iPhone and post iPhone, pre smartphone and post iPhone could be, could be the most significant watershed cultural moment that we've experienced in the LA since World War ii. Yeah.
Nick Clason (10:35):
I don't, one of, one of like, I, one of the guys I listen to a lot, his name, you know, Brady Shear mm-hmm. , he talks about this being the biggest communication shift that we've seen in 500 years. So he's referencing that being the printing press. Yeah. And now with all this digital stuff. So that's a great call. Let's go like, let's go there a little bit. You said, um, pre iPhone people would gather from multiple high schools to your church. Did you notice that stopping, um, after, did you notice attendance shifting or did you just notice that still happens but there's, there's now just an iPhone in everyone's pocket and that's changing how they're interacting. But things are still, still sort of the same. Like, what would you say was, uh, like a, an actual effect, right? Yeah. Of that attendance thing you're talking about.
Derry Prenkert (11:25):
This is not scientific at all. It's very guttural and it's nature. Uh, and it's my experience, I would say it didn't, for some it stopped. But I would say the bigger thing is it got more sporadic. In fact, you we're just talking, I don't know, it would be fascinating. You know, they talk about how people are coming to church less often Right. Than they used to. That a regular attendant is, attender is considered once every month or once every three weeks. Right? Yep. I wonder how that correlates to the institution of like the, the actual cell phone and smartphone because Yeah, because that was the thing. Like pre pre smartphone, um, even kids from the same school, there was the chance to just, you know, we're not just going through in passing periods. We're gonna have a small group time. We're gonna have a pre hangout post hangout mm-hmm.
Derry Prenkert (12:09):
once a week. This is my guaranteed time. I'm gonna get time with my friends. Yeah. Um, and so it got more sporadic. Yeah. Uh, definitely. And, and that could be in part because they could have the community outside of the youth group. Um, but it still, that's why I would, I would still be a firm believer. There is a limitation to what you can accomplish over digital. I think anybody that truly had to walk through the PA pandemic and live completely on a screen would a hundred percent agree with me. You can't replace, um, interpersonal in person reaction Totally. With digital. But you can find more connection or, or you can find connection in the gaps through that. And so I think it got more, um, more sporadic, uh, in nature. And yes, they are showing up with them. And I mean, man, whew, how many conversations do I have?
Derry Prenkert (12:58):
I had with parents and leaders on, We gotta, we gotta, we gotta like force kids to turn these off or tell 'em they can't have 'em at all. And then, and then the issue of parents talking about what age do I give my kid a phone? When do I not? Because not only are they carrying it around, I mean, it's just, it's just there. And so the amount of attention that was going down to it when they were around that, that I'd say kinda really hit in the two, like 2014 15 phrase when everybody got one. Mm-hmm. , uh, everybody had one.
Nick Clason (13:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, even my kids in first grade and his teacher sended stuff on his like e backpack and then his like e folder and he has like iPad time. Like, so my sort of thing is, while you may lament the loss of some of what was prefo and pre-technology, um, it's not going anywhere. And so, you know, cuz I, I'm with you sometimes I have leaders who are like, We just need to get rid of the phones, take 'em away from the kids. Like make sure that they, you know, only use paper bibles and that, you know, it's, it's wrong to read God's word on a screen type of thing. And that's, that's a high preference maybe mm-hmm. . And there may be some validity to some of those things, but the fact of the matter is like, why, You know, my argument is why are we discouraging a kid from reading the Bible if it's super accessible to them and in their pocket 24 hours a day?
Nick Clason (14:25):
Um, you know, so, So what have you noticed or what are some of the things that you've done realizing like, we can't, we can't get ourselves away from these. They are everywhere. They're on all the time. They are our everything. Our day planner, our calendar and our social life in a lot of ways. You know, like what are some of the things that you've, you've tried to embrace as a youth pastor, um, to maybe leverage them or lean into them and then maybe what are some of the times that you've discouraged use of them? Because you're like the, the, you know, the re the result of what's gonna happen here physically is gonna be greater than what is happening if you're on your
Derry Prenkert (15:02):
Phone. Yeah. It's great. Um, in the thing I do with parents, which total shameless plug, it's actually on D ym, you get it, download Youth Mystery
Nick Clason (15:12):
And then you have an extra $4 in your pocket. Yeah, yeah,
Derry Prenkert (15:15):
Yeah. From that roof. Yeah. It's called Adolescents Parenting and Technology. I use an illustration. I, and I, it's an illustration that, that hit me is our phones are a knife, um, and a knife, uh, can serve many purposes. Uh, a knife is, can be used to spread butter. It can be used to whittle wood to make, uh, amazing things. It can be, it can be, uh, used to, you know, cut through things that are hard to cut through. It also can be used to kill people. Um, it's really about what is happening with the person that has it in their hands. And a part of that is what's their intentions as well as what's their awareness of a knife. You know, I've got, you've got younger kids. Mm-hmm. , I had a six year old that early on, he just got us obsessed with our steak knives when he was three or four.
Derry Prenkert (16:03):
And we had to like, put those things up high cuz he just, he didn't understand the danger involving those knives. Right. Um, and, and so, uh, so with that, like, with that illustration in mind and looking at it that way, I, I look at this thing, a knife is really, for the most part neutral. Unless it's this crazy butcher knife that is, for the most part, a knife is neutral. It's what you're doing with it in your hands. So then it becomes about making sure to check your motives as well as prepare the person that has it in their hands to use it in the right way and to know how to use it in the right way. And, um, I think in that, like, especially if we're talking to ministers and I, I would put this across the board, in fact mm-hmm. , I would argue that senior pastors teaching pastors should be coaching, uh, 50, 60 year olds how to utilize their phones wisely, even more so than those that are just growing up with it, a native part of their life.
Derry Prenkert (17:03):
Hmm. Um, cuz I don't see a lot of students, uh, just making a fool of themselves on how they treat people on, on social media is, uh, as much as I see adults, uh, in what they're saying and everything else. So, so the, it's across the board. Like we have a responsibility to look at what does scripture say about, especially from a discipleship aspect of how we are to love our neighbors ourselves, and then how does it play out on this thing, you know? Mm-hmm. . So, so that would be, that would be a thing. So, um, so that's just, sorry, little rant there, but the knife and, and, and we, we have a responsibility to show them. Uh, I am a big fan Nick, of just intentionality in ministry overall. I think a lot of pastors, uh, I'm, I'm dedicating really, I feel like the second, second half of my life is I just want youth pastors and any pastors to be healthy in ministry.
Derry Prenkert (17:53):
And a big part of that is guarding your own heart. Um, another part is just thinking clearly and strategically in Christ's focus and inten and intentionality in what you're doing is a big part of that. Um, and so I would, I would argue that anybody that is in charge of a program, uh, a ministry, uh, any regular ministry gathering, there should be a side to say, Okay, what's our philosophy in how phones play into this? Mm-hmm. . And it can take up a lot of different forms. Yeah. One is what's our, so we're gonna be teaching this series, How's it showing up on their phones? Mm-hmm. , are we gonna do digital notes that they can look at while they're in the room? Are we going to do follow up stuff through social media that's gonna create interaction? Um, you've done some great stuff on the importance of don't just use your social media of as a, as a billboard that uses this interactive place.
Derry Prenkert (18:47):
You know, thinking through those things. Mm-hmm. , um, how are we going to actually handle the phones inside the space? What are, are, are, uh, uh, to what, what do we need to take into account if a middle school, I, I'm helping out in middle school right now, and I'm at a pretty conservative community mm-hmm. where I'd say it's six through eight grade, I would say no more than half the kids are, are actually walking in with smartphones. Now I know some would go, That's ridiculous. Well, that's my community. Sure. So I need to be thinking through, um, that I, I have to have a path for the non phone user. Right. But also I need to be thinking through for the phone user to begin to show them now. Like, Hey, if you're gonna follow Jesus, that plays out in this thing. Yeah.
Derry Prenkert (19:28):
So how do we do that? So what, what am I teaching? You know, when I get to the practical steps of my teaching, how am I intentionally saying, Hey, this is how this plays out on your phone. You know, that can be a part of it. Um, and then, and then I think, uh, there's just the overall, uh, idea of, I, I have kind of these categories I think through that I want to try to do inside the programming. And this is very youth ministry specific. I want to have times where, uh, where they have it and it's on, but they're encouraged to put it to, to the side mm-hmm. and not access it at all. Because, because we need to be able to do that in real life at times. Mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. . And so small groups, a lot of times, I don't know if you have this some, sometimes they'll do like the basket or, or, or things to say, Hey, it's here.
Derry Prenkert (20:14):
Or just even stack them in the middle of the room like, it's here, but we're not gonna use Oh yeah. Use that right now. Yeah. And, um, or it's just even a, Hey, let's put this in our pockets. Just hang tight with me for a little bit. Um, then there's then there's times where it's like off or not there at all. And we can talk about that one a little bit more. Probably it'd be a good one of, of, Hey, this is a no cell phone situation. Yeah. I think that's very debatable on how much we're often, but there's times where it's important to just, I mean, uh, solitude, simplicity, um, making sure that we're not controlled by things all apart of following Jesus. But then most importantly is we're gonna have times where we use this thing in a redemptive manner. Yeah. Um, we're gonna find ways.
Derry Prenkert (20:57):
So, so we are closing out and we've talked about, uh, the importance of praying for others and what ha you know, maybe we're doing a series on prayer and it's about praying for others. And, and what we say is, Okay, here's what we're gonna do right now. If you have a phone, I want you to pull it out and I'm just gonna ask the Lord to speak to us, to give you a name right now as somebody you could pray for. Hmm. And, and now I want you to pull out your phone and I want you to text them, not not, not text them that you are praying for them, actually text out what your prayer for them is. Hmm. Or when you walk out the room tonight, I want you to use that little voice memo thing. I did this this morning. Uh, I got a friend who just started first day in ministry today. I, I did a voice memo to him that was just solely my prayer and that was it. Like, here's my prayer for you today as you started on ministry. Yeah. That's cool. So, so finding ways to use it, redemptively. So again, I kind of went different, but use it redemptively. Find ways to put it to the side, find ways to turn it off or not have it there at all. And do all of that intentionally.
Nick Clason (21:51):
Yeah. I mean, a lot, a lot of what we say on here is that digital and physical, uh, both are important, but they're both categorically different. And so that's why I do think there is value in things that are strictly physical only. I think, like you said, we learned a lot of things about ourselves and people during covid when what was physical could not be completely replicated digitally. Yeah. Um, and vice versa. Right. And that's, that's the thing too, is like, I think the vice versa piece is like, there are some digital things that are digital only, like mm-hmm. me. Like you can do message recaps and, and things like that where you're calling back to what you did, um, throughout the week. Like on things like social media where people are not physically gathering in your room on a Tuesday morning, or they can be reading a u version plan on their own when they wake up on Thursday afternoon, you know, at lunch, whatever.
Nick Clason (22:46):
So mm-hmm. , that's, that's this whole idea of hybrid is it's, there is room for, for physical only. And there's also space, I think for digital. And that's part of the thing is we've, and I think a lot of churches are kind of running up into this, is they're, uh, Hey, you're, you're a youth pastor so you have to do all of it. Mm-hmm. , it's like these are two completely like different lanes. And so there's, I mean, there's staffing conversations and budget conversations I think like around all these things that are gonna be coming, coming down the pike at, at churches, so mm-hmm. , what would you say are times, um, maybe where you would, you would say, Hey, let's put phones away all together. Maybe talk about like camp situation Sure. Or, or retreats or whatever. Yeah. I'm sure that's probably one of the, the main ones that comes to people's minds.
Derry Prenkert (23:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Nick, you and I are a part of different youth ministry communities. Um, Facebook groups are a wonderful mess at times. . And one of the, one of the hot topics amongst many other things is when this gets asked of, Hey, what's your policy on cell phones? And it's interesting. It's like just hot takes start firing all over the place. Right. So, um, I was a part of one church for 23 years mm-hmm. , and I was a part of another church for 2.3 years. That's my little joke, uhha. But, um, , uh, in the one church that I was at for 23 years that I also grew up where technology was unfolded. And we, we had a hard and fast rule that really any trip that we did, we started with the idea of no cell phones would be allowed. And it was because we had a high emphasis on interactivity and, and, and it, cell phones weren't around when we set the rule.
Derry Prenkert (24:24):
It was, you can't bring your walkmans, your discmans your game boys because we're here to interact with each other. And the minute you look down on that thing, you're not there. So that just kind of lended itself over to cell phones and everything else. Mm-hmm. . And so, um, so any camp retreat, anything like that, we just, we put a pretty hard and fast rule with the one except perception being our senior retreat that we do with grads. We'd say, Hey, you can bring it. It was almost like this. Oh, you're old enough now. I, I don't know that I liked the motives in it, um, in, in it all. So, but then I went to, uh, another church where it was like, you can have them all the time mm-hmm. . Um, which, and the interesting thing I saw was effective ministry was taking place in both situations.
Derry Prenkert (25:09):
Um, but we hadn't really stopped and re strategized in my 23 year church to say, Hey, we're kind of, we kind of just stumbled into this, but these things are so much a part of his life. So we need to understand when we ask a kid to leave theirself at home, we're asking them to leave their most prized valuable mm-hmm. , um, possession mm-hmm. at home. Um, and then at the other church it was like, it's all there. But where we really said, Hey, how are we, are we, are we assessing how we're we're using these? And so I don't, I don't come from the mindset that says definitely no. Or definitely yes. As much as, again, back to that word, intentionality. Yeah. Um, have a plan. Yeah. Talk about it. So, so where we really landed, where at the church I was just at, was, um, if the event is going to be primarily focused on those that don't know Jesus coming into the situation, we're gonna be very hesitant to say he phones.
Derry Prenkert (26:06):
Yeah. Because they're not gonna get the idea of it. If the event is, is high, um, service based, um, intentional discipleship mm-hmm. and deepening, we're gonna stop and say, Hey, you know what, let's, this might be a time, Yeah. Let's evaluate this, where we're gonna maybe more lean toward this is a no-go, but then we're gonna say, here's why it's a no-go. If it's heavy discipleship, it's gonna say, this is gonna be a significant time. Where the primary things we're gonna do is we're gonna focus in on your connection with God and your connection with others, and we're gonna challenge you to find ways to do that outside of the technical technological world. Can you do that inside the technological world? Absolutely. But we see the value of a break. Um, and so that's kind of where we landed. Uh, but I mean the, the, I'm back, I'm back around the church that I was at for 23 years, though a lot of the rules are still in place that if it's a trip or retreat, it's no go. The interesting thing is, um, parents hated a whole lot more than students did.
Nick Clason (27:03):
Yeah. Now they were the one were noticing that too. Yep.
Derry Prenkert (27:05):
Yeah. If you, I would argue you wanna try to institute a no cell phone rule and you don't have it, it's gonna be really hard and it may not be worth the fight and it won't be because the kids, it's gonna be the parents. Parents are be, How do I get a hold of Johnny? Yeah. And, you know, in whatever case. Um, but, but when we take seniors on the retreat, when we were taking them, you know, and we'd allow to have phones, it just naturally had come up in conversations. They would go, Wait, are you gonna start allowing this for other kids on your, on, on campus? Like, we didn't have. And and I'm like, and, and I'd get into the conversation with 'em like, Oh, are you ticked because you had to suffer through not having 'em. Yeah. And you're, and you wanna make sure they get punished like you did.
Derry Prenkert (27:42):
And the seniors would be like, No, no. Like, I'd love that. We didn't have 'em. Yeah. I, I I actually would come back from camp. So grateful that you really pushed that on us for that time. Mm-hmm. . Now, is that right or wrong? No, I, I like, does that mean that you absolutely shouldn't do it? No, but it was just, it's an interesting aspect to it all. So again, long, long talking to just say it's about intentionality, it's about thinking through why would we want to do this? Mm-hmm. and then, and then making sure to communicate to those that are participating. And if it's in youth ministry, the parents of saying here's why. Yeah. Um, and then being ready for a fight, if you wanna say No phones. Cause it's, it's a challenge.
Nick Clason (28:20):
Yeah. That, No, that's really good. And again, right, like there's things that only physical can accomplish and there's things that only digital can accomplish. And I think an experience like a camp or whatever, there is a lot of connection that needs to take place. And most students, and you know, back to what you said earlier, people in church like don't know how to live in a world where it's just that where their phone isn't constantly dinging or lighting up or vying for their attention. And so I, I too have noticed in those types of environments where students, people are like grateful and thankful or say, man, like I'm, I haven't even like, wanted my phone. They're kinda surprised by it. You know, that that's, that's kind of the case. So Yeah. It's so
Derry Prenkert (29:05):
Interesting. Can I give two practical, just real practical tips if you choose to do no phones, especially if you're a youth pastor. Yeah, yeah. Um, one is bring in a, at at least one, maybe multiple people who's their sole job is to capture photos and videos of the experience mm-hmm. . And at the beginning of the experience, make sure that the students know who that person is, because one of the things you're asking them to sacrifice is
Nick Clason (29:28):
Capturing, capturing
Derry Prenkert (29:30):
The memories
Nick Clason (29:30):
Of
Derry Prenkert (29:31):
It all. And that's bigger than ever, right? Yeah. Because they can do that. And so making sure that that's there, and then making all those photos and videos available as soon as you possibly can. Um, and I, I noticed that, um, the, a camp I was at this summer there, the photographer was actually uploading those, um, to their social media platform, like with a link while the camp was there, even though the kids didn't have phones, so that as soon as they got home within like one hour, the kids were like posting their, you know, their real, their reels that recaps, like that's good. Building up all the stuff on the, That's really good. So I think that's a big one. And then two is think through your strategic feedback loop to parents. The parent freakout is, I don't, I, how do I know? Well mm-hmm.
Derry Prenkert (30:14):
, if you have a, a way of saying, Hey, here's, here's where you can go, um, whether it's a Facebook page or group, or if it's your Instagram, or if it's even like a, a remind, uh, setup or whatever, texting, like, here's where it's at. We found that Facebook lives where you could at a camp mm-hmm. , um, actually doing a, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go live at this time. I'm actually gonna give you a little glimpse into the session just for a short bit so you can just see what's going on and then come back and update you. And the beauty of a Facebook Live, every parent is still on Facebook, uh, for the most part. So they, they, they're there and so they can jump on live and then you can let it sit there. So, um, but those two things will, will go a long way in helping the resistance you might get. Um, when it comes to the no phone
Nick Clason (31:00):
Rule. Yeah. We, we, we do, we've done like a photographer and my, my favorite, and it always depends on like if the church or I have the budget to pull this off, but like get a videographer as well, or the same person, um, and have them do a daily, like, recap video. Those are great for opening your like sessions, but they're also amazing to throw up on YouTube and then text a link out. And so, you know, parents who, uh, send their kids without phone or whatever, they feel this like sense of relief if like they see their kid. Absolutely. Then the downside is one, one time I had to, uh, remove a clip because a kid was like picking his nose and the mom like, wanted it out. Yeah. Um, and then another time ano a mom was like, I haven't seen my kid in any of the recap bees. Yeah. And I'm trying not to freak out, but like, are they having fun? Like, are they making friends? Like, and I get it, like as a, as a dad myself, you know, now, like I would also want to try and like lay eyes on my kids. So
Derry Prenkert (32:01):
Totally same. Totally same. Actually Gabe, the pastor at the church that I'm serving with now, he did a meal time at camp and he just said, Okay, who needs to see their kid Facebook Live, , who needs to see their kid? And he just went around and said, funny. And he put up the phone, he said, Tell your mom you're okay. And, and it was like one of the most viewed Yeah. There are a lot of people there, so Yeah. And that is legit. And it's, you gotta be ready for it for that whole world. And, um, it is, that is evidence again, of the different world. And, and as a parent of a high schooler and a middle schooler, I wasn't at the high school camp. I was at the middle school camp. I was watching for my kid. Yeah.
Derry Prenkert (32:38):
That I didn't quite quite realize. So.
Nick Clason (32:40):
All right. Last, last thing. Um, how can we, as pastors, people in ministry, what are ways there that you see that we can optimize technology, um, now Cause like the overall mission, right? Of the church mm-hmm. to make disciples. And Paul used, you know, the thing available to him writing letters at the time to reach churches that he was not near. So what are some ways, just maybe a couple ideas off the top of your head that you have seen effective or ideas that maybe you haven't seen totally fleshed out, but are ruminating inside. Like Yeah. Where we can use what is available to us in technology. I mean, even the fact that I'm sitting in Texas here in northern Indiana and we're having this conversation and we're seeing each other, like, that's an advantage that wasn't available to us pre 2007. Right. And so, uh, what are some of those things maybe that you have seen or have thought about that we can use to our advantage to help kids take steps closer to Jesus?
Derry Prenkert (33:40):
Yeah. Let me throw you a little bit of a curve on where I might go with this to start only, um, in that I've been a part of large to very large churches mm-hmm. , and you've been a part of larger churches where there's a budget that's available and mass communication through technology. And so our minds might immediately go to Yeah. Podcasts and video streams mm-hmm. and, uh, you know, Instagram and getting somehow in with you version so you can build up a Bible reading plan. And I Yes. Yeah.
Nick Clason (34:10):
But I would it if you can
Derry Prenkert (34:11):
Yeah. I would say pastors and ministers to remember to that this is an incredible one to one ministry tool still mm-hmm. . And so, um, and, and this has gotten especially big to me as I've shifted over into this world now where my primary job that I says God's called me to is just to pastor pastors, especially those that are youth pastors. Well, they're all over the nation. Yeah. And so, um, last night, Sunday night for me, I'm recognizing I was just like, Lord, who are the people right now that might just kind of be in that spot that a word of encouragement or a check-in could go a long way? And there were, there were four texts that were sent out to individuals going, Hey, you're on my mind. How did today go? Or what's going on in your mind? Woke up this morning and like I already told you about, there was one guy that is first day he shifted from the education world to the church world.
Derry Prenkert (35:03):
Hmm. And so, um, so I, I would just start by saying yes, I mean, as we think about the massive ways to do it, let's not forget that pastoring at its best that's good is a one to one, a one to three relationship mm-hmm. . And so, uh, connecting with our parishioners are people that we're discipling, whoever they might be, uh, through the phone and doing it healthily and thinking through safeguards and all those things are really important, especially for youth pastors. Um, which probably is a whole other episode to talk through at some point. . Yeah. But, um, but to understand like, this is a ministry tool at its core. And so a a properly placed text, phone call, FaceTime, um, like, or comment on a, um, on a, on a post, uh, can is, is ministry, like, is deep ministry and meaningful ministry at times.
Derry Prenkert (35:53):
Mm-hmm. . Um, That's great. It was interesting Nick, uh, my former youth pastor, uh, my dad died 10, uh, 13 years ago now, and my former youth minister is no longer in youth ministry. And, but it was an incredible influence on my life. Mm-hmm. . And it was about, uh, it was, it was right around eight years after my dad had died, I posted just a memory of him and below in the comment section, my old youth pastor got on and he, all he wrote was, I'm so proud of you Derry. And I read that and I lost it. And, and I talked to him and, and what happened in that moment was like, I realized, uh, can, like, thank you. I miss I miss having my dad, and I'm not, I don't have a dad that can physically say to me, I'm proud of you anymore.
Derry Prenkert (36:39):
And I'm, I'm like a 36 year old man, like blubbering over my youth pastor telling me he's proud of me. But it's because he, he, in that moment, he ministered to me through a simple comment on a Facebook group mm-hmm. that also helped me work through some grieving that I was at. I hadn't really just walked through and said, God, I'm kind of ticked, I'm kind of ticked right now because I've lost, like, why did this happen? And, and it helped me kind of break through to a new level. And so, so anyway, like just, I, I, that's the one thing I would just say is as we think through the strategic and the greater stuff, let's not forget this is a incredible tool for the most effective ministry that is relational and personal in nature. That's good. That's good. Um, um, I would say otherwise though too is, um, I have a good friend, John McAllen, Johnny Mack, he did this thing, he started, it was called Echo Ministry.
Derry Prenkert (37:25):
And the idea was how do you take and create echos of what's happening on the, on the weekend? How do you have the message echo through the rest of the week? And our technology, our cell phones are such a primary tool to make that happen. You said it so well, there are things that we can do now because we have these, um, where it can show up in the moment, in, in different ways, uh, whether it's, uh, uh, a thinking through, uh, devotional journey, like I said, through you version. Mm-hmm. , uh, uh, the youth group that I just was at for the last couple of years, they're doing a thing called sale up Moments every week. They have just one moment that, that where they, they use on social media where they say, Okay, you're scrolling through, but stop, exhale, um, and listen to God allow 'em to speak to you.
Derry Prenkert (38:16):
You know? And there's a whole acronym to it. I can't remember what the H was good. Yeah. I like that. You know, have a burger, I think was the last, no, I can't remember what the H was, but, um, they, they, they walked through it and, and so using that was, um, was, was a way to do it. So I, I think it's that matter of how can we echo it mm-hmm. . And there's a lot, you know, podcasts can be a part of it. Uh, I started something called Digging Deeper with our main services when I was, uh, at my own church. And, and what we did was every Wednesday I would sit down with whoever was preaching mm-hmm. . And if I, I, I was a part of the teaching time. If I was preaching, somebody else would come in and the first thing we'd say, Hey, hey, what hit the cutting room floor?
Derry Prenkert (38:53):
What were you not able to get to this weekend that you wish you could have? And people just love that aspect, but then we would pick it part a little bit more mm-hmm. . And so, and it, it's not hard. It's a, you know, get, get a little basic, um, Yeah. Recording set up and you can get it set up pretty easy. Um, and so there's just so many ways, but I would just start with the, like, how can we echo into the week, what happened on the weekend Yep. And use it on a digital format.
Nick Clason (39:16):
Yeah. No, that's good. I, I also personally think that we don't know yet like, the answer to some of these questions. Yeah. Like, I still think that there's, uh, things yet to be discovered, you know, in front of us. And so I think, uh, if there's any sort of like, challenge for anyone listening, I would just say like, just do something. Um, and you may stumble upon something great. You may find some stuff that's terrible and you need to cut it out. Um, but if you're, if you're always looking that direction, uh, you'll, you'll stumble upon something good that you maybe don't even know, or you maybe didn't, you know, you maybe weren't even able to see it right now when you started it because of a limited technology or budget or whatever. And so just be looking for ways. Cuz like I said, it's less, I think, I personally think it's easy to make digital about being flashy, um, or whatever, looking good to parents or other youth pastors or other people in ministry, whatever.
Nick Clason (40:15):
But I think it's far less about that for me at least, and it's more about how effective can I be in spreading the message of Jesus with all the tools that he's given to me. Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm alive in 2022 with access to podcast microphones and phones that can take incredible videos and pictures, like mm-hmm. , how am I going to use steward those things to reach the most amount of people, you know, that have an audience to reach. So I think that's, that would be my challenge to whoever's listening is think what Dare said, think through all the things that, with intentionality, Um, and then just be open, you know, to, to utilizing some stuff.
Derry Prenkert (40:52):
So yeah. You're, you're so right on. We don't have it all figured out. Probably one of my greatest pet peeves in life are, uh, those that are convinced they have it all figured out. Um, Yeah. and I, I, I can do that at times. And usually when I'm at that point and I'm like, Oh yeah, I know how to do this. Mm-hmm. , that's the moment when I will fall flat on my face. And so, so there's a ton to be learned. There's a ton to be determined I love, or
Nick Clason (41:14):
That's when a new iPhone comes out, Right. And you're like, Oh, this changed everything. Or Covid hit and this changed everything. So yes. Totally. Good. Yes. I think we're living through that. Well, hey man. Um, anything else off top of your head? You don't have to, but I just wanna make sure you said everything you wanted to say. Didn't leave anything unsaid.
Derry Prenkert (41:30):
I think the only thing I would maybe end with is in that same vein is, um, it's everywhere. It's so much. Uh, also don't be afraid to not feel like you have to do everything, you know? Um, uh, especially to the minister that's trying to think through how to do effectively. There is a, there is a moment where less is more because your soul needs to rest, you know? Mm-hmm. , if you're finding yourself trying to, uh, late at night when you should be being around your family, invest your family or on your day off going, this is the time while Ill dive into all this digital stuff. Eh, you know what, maybe, maybe that's, uh, not worth it. No, not, maybe it definitely is not worth it. Definitely not worth, There's just, that's the part of like this thing, there's just so much out there. Mm-hmm. don't, I, I I guess it's like that idea of don't gain the digital world at the cost of your soul. Yeah. good is, is, is a big thing. And I just, I say that out of a season where I'm just seeing so many of us burn out. Um, and we're burning out in a lot of different ways, but one is because we're just constantly on and we don't hit the off switch. That's
Nick Clason (42:34):
Good. That's good. Love it, man. Well, hey, thanks again. Uh, you referenced a couple things in here. I'll toss 'em in show notes, like your resource on D ym so that all tens of our listeners can go get it. There you go. Um, anyway, thanks for hanging out man. And uh, absolutely. We'll chat again. Chat again. Yeah. Awesome.
Nick Clason (42:52):
Well, wasn't that great, Uh, super thoughtful, super helpful. Um, I hope that you found this interesting and helpful as well. Hey, um, we are online on Twitter at Hybrid Ministry. Would love to have you come hang out, follow us over there. Um, we're still growing, not super active yet, but, uh, we're well on our way. And also everything you need, show notes, links, transcripts, all kinds of stuff. You can find out hybrid ministry.xyz along with a now growing bank of archive and older episodes. So if you're just not stumbling upon us, we'd love to have you go back and check it out. Uh, you can do all of that at hybridministry.xyz Ze. Again, thanks for being with us today and we'll chat next time.
44 min
October 27, 2022 Episode 015: Why We Do What We Do In Churches in 2022?
SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick recounts some of his most recent experiences, and pokes the question at: "Why are we doing, what we're doing in churches?" If our ultimate aim is disciple-making (Mt 28) then is the method we're operating in a church the most effective form of doing that?
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Or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What is up everybody. And welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast. On today's episode, I just wanted to have a quick conversation, a brain dump, if you will, about why we do what we do as Christians in church. And you know what I mean by that is there's a lot of moving parts in any organization if you're running a business or if you're an accountant or if you run a plumbing company or whatever, right? There's logistics, there's email, there's it, there's booking, there's scheduling, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's branding and color schemes and merchandising and content creation and social media. I mean, there's a million layers to everything, and the church is not exempt from that. And so what I wanna do, like I said, give just a quick little brain dump here. This is something that's been swirling around in my brain.
Nick Clason (01:09):
I am your host, Nick Clason. If you and I have not had a chance to meet, so excited that you're jumping on this, uh, podcast with me today. Um, I, we, we, we, uh, have this podcast, the Hybrid Ministry Podcast, because we are attempting to live life out in a hybrid sort of way. We don't live in a physical only world anymore, but we don't live in a digital only world either. How do we marry those two things together? And how do we create a hybrid sort of experience, uh, for the people that we're trying to reach? Because, you know, me, my story, like I'm a pastor, and so I've been called by God to reach people, make disciples, um, and share with them the mi, the mission, message, and hope found only in Jesus. And so how do we do that? And so for, you know, the majority of our lifetime, uh, we've done that through the local body, um, of the church.
Nick Clason (02:03):
And I believe that that's, that's a theological, um, understanding of what we have going on, right? Like the theological implications, Hebrew chapter 10, verse 24 and 25, Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Not giving up meeting together is somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another in all the more, as you see the day approaching, it's a biblical mandate for us to do life together. And by no means am I proposing that we don't do that. Um, so like I said, I'm a pastor, um, specifically I'm a youth pastor, uh, work in the Dallas, Texas area. And I just started a new job, started a new job, um, at, uh, going on two months now at this point. But the first month was, uh, remote and traveling back and forth between Dallas and Chicago, where I, I lived before.
Nick Clason (02:56):
And so, yeah, I really only feel like I've been here like 20 something days or whatever since, you know, since I was able to kind of get in here full time and get things going. So, you know, one of the, and, and listen, before I jump into this, this could feel like a slight or a, you know, a dig at the church I'm at, or the churches that I've been in in my lifetime. And the fact is I'm very thankful for every single opportunity that I've been given. Um, I see how every, uh, stop in my journey, in my career, uh, has led me to a very specific spot in my life and how God has orchestrated, um, and paved those ways. And so, you know, there's some, uh, there's some jobs that I've had, you know, that, that have some hurt. Um, and there's definitely like some moments in my life and in my ministry career that, um, I've, you know, I've struggled with or whatever.
Nick Clason (04:01):
Um, but I'm thankful for each and every stop along the way. I'm thankful for what I've learned at each and every stop along the way, um, and how the Lord has used that to grow me and give me just a, a perspective. And so I say all that to say what I'm about to say. Uh, like I said, may seem like I'm poking holes, like I'm digging, like I'm frustrated and I want as much as I can to preface that and say, I'm really, I'm not okay, especially if you're my boss or HR person and you're signing my paycheck, very appreciative for the job that you've given me. But what I've most recently, especially in this most recent onboarding, and so where I work now, I'm thrilled. I love my job. I love what I do. Um, I love, you know, they believe in me and they're giving me opportunities to go out and run and innovate and try some stuff.
Nick Clason (04:57):
And so for that, I'm incredibly thankful. Um, however, a lot of this stuff is popping up in my brain because of the fact that I'm starting somewhere new. And so, while I'm incredibly thankful what I'm about to say when I'm about to kind of like, um, I dunno, shine a light on, if you will, may seem like I'm aiming it at the church that I'm currently employed at. And by no means am I trying to, like I said, shine a light and be frustrated, whatever. So I think of caveat of that enough, it's been like two minutes of caveat, so you're probably ready to hear what I'm about to say. So in the whole onboarding process, um, actually, lemme see if I can pull it up. Um, in my email, when I first started, I got, um, information on how to set up, uh, my account for our church database, church management software.
Nick Clason (05:54):
Um, I also got information on all my benefits, which obviously I need that, and I'm grateful for, and I'm thankful for, right? Um, let's see, what else do I, I got, I got information on, uh, how to join, like the staff, um, info portal, like, um, it's called leader, Uh, you know, so it's like that plus like, uh, what's, you know, uh, development and stuff like that. Um, email, um, expenses, a couple of different portals for expenses. Um, and then our request, uh, system, which is like requests and calendars, maintenance things. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. Oh, there's, then there's task management software, um, that I had to learn. Then there's keys and there's fobs, uh, to get into doors. And then there's meetings with like department heads, you know, so like, um, how do we, in our, like I'm a youth pastor, so how do we, um, interact with the tech team?
Nick Clason (06:57):
How do we interact with the worship team? How do we interact with the creative team? How do we interact with the communications team and how do we interact with the facilities team? Um, a lot of the answers to that fall under the systems and like portals that I just listed out. Um, however, there's another like meeting to just sort of like a get to know people and then be like, um, kind of hash it out, chat it out, right? And so I, again, I say all that to say like, there's a lot of focus on those things. And as a pastor, um, Jesus committed all of his disciples, including pastors, to go make disciples, make more disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them, commanding them. Any promise that he'll be with us, promise us his presence. I'll be with you always to the very end of the age.
Nick Clason (07:53):
It's Matthew, uh, 28, 18 through 20. So I, I think, again, caveat, love, love my job. I think anyone that you're like questioning, like, why do we need this? Why do we, that this, the other thing, Well, those processes help make us more efficient so that we can, um, not waste time on details and tasks, and those things don't get dropped. And so then thus, therefore, we can be more effective and freed up to make disciples great. I mean, I agree with that. I agree with that on paper. Okay. And then, um, you know, you think about, think about like, what do we do as the church, right? So if I sit down, I'm like, Hey, I need to understand what my role as a youth pastor is in relation to worship, in relation to tech, in relation to facilities, right? Like, what does that, why, why is all that important?
Nick Clason (08:57):
Well, because I'm gonna be using the building. So we need the sound, the lights, the worship, the music, the facility to be ready, set up for a, you know, for what? For our event. Well, what's the purpose of our event? Well, that's to make disciples, right? It's really easy. And Ayanna, I can't remember who coined this term, you know, but I'm sure you've heard it before, right? There's, there's the tyranny of the urgent, right? There's always something more urgent, pressing. Like right now, I'm looking at my computer and I have one big red, uh, bubble on my email saying I have an unread email. And my human inclination, in fact, like computer companies, software companies, like they, they build it this way to give it like this, like, you know, urgency type of thing. So it's like, Oh, I gotta check that notification, right? That's, that's always the case.
Nick Clason (09:55):
We're always looking to figure out like, what is the most important thing? What do we need to handle most? And so in my church, we meet on Wednesday nights, we also meet on Sunday mornings. And so, and that's, I've had that rhythm before. Uh, but I, I'm most recently came from a church before this where we only had like one week worth of, uh, one thing per week of stu student ministry programming. So Wednesday and Sunday, like, that's, that's rapid to me. Like, it, it feels like much more, uh, much more frenetic of a pace. Frenetic is the wrong word, but like, the frequency is just doubled, right? It's from one time a week to not two times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Sunday, Wednesday. And those gaps are shorter. And so to get my things done in between those two are quicker. And so, like I said, I'm always turning around and finding myself like, Oh, you know, I'm recording this on a Tuesday night, tomorrow morning, uh, is Wednesday, I'll be at church all day long.
Nick Clason (10:51):
And then, because I'm at church all day long on Wednesday, um, I will work most of my day on Thursday and be off on Friday. I gotta get everything between, you know, tomorrow and Thursday ready and locked and loaded for Sunday. And I may in fact get some stuff ready and locked and loaded for Sunday, tomorrow, on Wednesday before I ever even, uh, you know, host the next event. I'm two events ahead, right? And that's, if I'm really, you know, most people say, Oh, it's if you're really well planned and that's, you're really on top of things. And, and I like to think I am. However, that there, you know, there's always, like, you always work best under pressure. Um, there's actually like a psychological term of that called like forced focus. And so if you're forced to focus, like as you're zeroing in on an event, no matter how good, and well you are planned out, like, you'll come up with something, you're like, Shoot, it was a good idea.
Nick Clason (11:47):
I should have done that. You know, So anyway, all that right? Aha. That to be said, What, why are we doing church? Like, we're not in the event business, but we are a little bit, right? And here's why. This is a hybrid conversation because, uh, 10, even 10 years ago, maybe like 20 at the most, right? The way to gather together in the way to disseminate, uh, information, theological information, with the exception of the Bible in like print pieces, using printing press, books, magazines, whatever, newspaper articles, like the only way to distribute that information was through the local church. And so thus, the regular gathering was really important because you'd come together and maybe the church would have access to these print pieces of these magazines. They'd get 'em in bulk or whatever, and they'd provide them for their parishioners, their congregation members. But now, since the advent of the internet, all that stuff is available to people.
Nick Clason (12:51):
And so the novelty of church or the uniqueness that it brought, it, it almost feels like it's not there as much. And then again, what are we doing? Like, we're making disciples through the context of hosting events. And I, I, I, I think events matter, and I think they're important. Um, you know, but like, like I, I told you a couple episodes ago, go back and listen to it where I said, Hey, here's what we're, you know, trying to do on social media or whatever, Um, trying to launch some stuff. I just pulled TikTok open on my account, and that's why you heard some background noise on that. Um, and I'm gonna do it again right here, but, um, listen, like I, we posted a like sermon, uh, recap deal, um, couple weeks ago, and I had a 437 views on, on one of those, right?
Nick Clason (13:49):
That's one of my higher ones. That's, that's, you know, better than most. But here's the thing that's kind of crazy. Think about like, when I gather all my students together, um, I have like a hundred, a hundred students, and that's, that's good, right? That's, that's pretty big. Um, some, you know, somewhere between 102 hundred students all together, if everyone showed up, you, if you're a youth pastor, you know how this goes, right? And so, uh, what's more advantageous? Well, I know, I know the students in my room, so I have a captive audience. I'm able to disciple them a little bit better. I'm able to craft the message, um, so that they hear what, you know, maybe they need to hear whatever they're like struggling with or through. However, like the reach on TikTok is like five times that with that one video. You know, some videos are smaller, like, you know, the most recent one I think had like 19.
Nick Clason (14:44):
So it's, it's obviously a lot, a lot smaller. And, uh, TikTok is less about who you follow and more about being, being discovered. And so, um, what is the next step for those audience members and all that stuff. All all that being said, like I know I find myself being challenged to be a disciple maker, be a dis be a disciple myself, of Jesus, and out of the overflow of that, make more and better disciples of him. And the, the context or the fabric, which with which at least the majority of the time of my job is soaked into, is through executing and, um, planning events, maintaining a physical facility, and, you know, worrying about branding, messaging, signage, like all those ancillary pieces. And you know, when it's all said and done, like officially on my, like, I don't, I don't have a time sheet, I'm salaried, right?
Nick Clason (15:53):
But if I did like on my time sheet, like Sunday mornings with students is probably like two hours. And then Wednesday nights with students is another like two hours. And if I'm like a really good youth pastor and I'm like getting coffee or going to football games, let's say that's another like two to four hours. Like in my 40 hour week, I spend eight, eight hours a great week, maybe 10 hours if I'm like super over the top, like really on it with actual teenagers. And like, I get it, right? Like in Ephesians, Paul said, Equipped the saints for works and acts of service. And like you heard, to have a hundred, a hundred plus kids, like, and we have small group leaders that, you know, it's, it's technically their job on our, in our pipeline to like, make that happen. But like, call to make disciples.
Nick Clason (16:45):
And so again, I say all this to say like, I'm not disgruntled, not angry. I love my church. And quite frankly, like I'm here because I'm so passionate about this hybrid stuff and in marrying like the digital with the physical, not because I love digital so much, cuz I really don't, but because I think that, well, I know that there's 167 other hours a week that the one hour a week that kids are sitting in our service, in my church I have too. So 166 hours in addition in a student's life, what am I doing then? How am I reaching a student where they are? How are they learning, growing, developing deeper into the core characters of Christ and doing the things that he challenged them to do? How else are they coming across those things? If it's not just a wins in night when they're in the building with me, or on a Sunday morning when they're in the building with me. Like when else are they being challenged by their youth pastor, by their church to live out their faith, to live out their faith, to learn the knowledge, to understand the things and tenants of the Bible, but
Nick Clason (17:48):
Also then to carry out that message to their friends, to reach their friends who are far from Jesus, to, to share the message of hope, the gospel with their friends who don't know him, to grow deeper in their relationship, to hone their skills, their character, so that it mirrors more closely like Christ to, to follow what, what his mission was that he laid out. I mean, this is so much more than how do I return in my receipts and how do I learn the softwares in the systems? Like I get it, right? Like at church is an organization. And without those things, you know, it would probably be far less effective. I get it. And you know, it's, it, it, maybe it's just a necessary evil, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's something that got me thinking, like, you know, sit in a staff meeting today and we're just going over tons and tons of logistics and you know, like I said, I love my job.
Nick Clason (18:45):
I have a really great job, and they're, they're allowing us to think outside the box and allowing us to break the mold a little bit. And so I'm, I'm really grateful for that. Um, but I just wonder if sometimes church, not just my church, all churches get a sucked into the tyranny of the urgent and b, turn into event makers as opposed to makers of disciples, builders of disciples, crafting, honing the next generation to look and act more like the person of Jesus. Like that's, that was his commission. So if we start with that, if we, if we start with the why, like why do we do this? And is an event the most effective way to do it? Probably, Or at least, at least if it's not, it's, it's a part of a hybrid solution to what the future looks like. And I don't have all the answers.
Nick Clason (19:38):
And that's you. That's, I think that's why I'm coming across passionate and potentially angry. I'm not angry. I'm really not. I'm just, I, I'm really, I'm right now I'm gonna study provided through my church about 50 days through the life of Christ. It's an amazing study. I've done it before. I'm doing it again, just being reminded about how intentional Jesus was about investing in people living life with his disciples and modeling for them what his ministry model was. And, and then I turn around and I'm, you know, I'm having to like, figure out how to like submit her a seat cuz I've never done it before. Cuz you know, I always had my admin do it. And, uh, she, she recently left and started a new job somewhere else. And so we're looking for one. And you know, I'm like slugging through that a little bit and I'm like, man, I get it.
Nick Clason (20:28):
Like right. It's necessary. And if anyone, if anyone from where I work hears this, they're gonna like, think I'm just this ungrateful, you know, complaining guy. Like I'm not, I'm really not. I'm just, I'm wrestling with like, what's the most important and how do we, how do we create something to respond to the tyranny of the urgent while not losing ourselves in the making of disciples. And I think that that's, I think every youth pastor, I think every pastor, every person in vocational ministry feels that tension at some point. So if you're in vocational ministry, let me hear it from you. Um, we're in this together and like I said, I love where I work. I don't have all the answers, um, but it's just something that got me thinking today. So I don't know. Listen bro, this is like a stream of consciousness. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna have chapter markers for this at the end of the day. Like this is just me rambling talking for 20 minutes. So if you found a helpful, let me know. Reach out on Twitter at hybrid ministry or, uh, swing by the website, hybridministry.xyz. Uh, and until next time, we'll talk to you later. Peace out my friends.
22 min
October 20, 2022 Episode 014: How to bridge the Generation Gap, Using Digital to Enhance Physical Ministry, and are small groups the new outreach?
SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick discusses the stark generation gap that is growing. In addition to that he explores and discusses how to use digital methods to enhance in the in-person ministry experience. And finally, he poses the question and idea: Are small groups the best new outreach method?
Follow us on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
TIMECODES
00:00-01:58 Intro
01:58-07:50 How to Bridge the Generation Gap between Gen Xers, Millennials and Gen Z
07:50-12:53 How to use digital to enhance in-person ministry
12:53-18:57 Are small groups the best new form for outreach?
18:57-19:34 Outro
SHOWNOTES
https://careynieuwhof.com/episode527/
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What is up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. Once again, another solo pod. Matt got him from Spain, um, and he wasn't sure about like his computer situation, but he got it. Uh, um, he's got one, he doesn't have a login yet for it, so that's a little bit problematic. But, uh, you know, once he starts getting settled in and stuff like that, he said he should be good to go. So, uh, one of my all time favorite podcasts is the Carry and New H Leadership podcast has subscribe to it, listen to it. Um, I, I wanna say every week, but it's not like on demand listening per se, it's more just like, Oh, I'll get to it whenever something else isn't there. Um, but I'm a pretty regular and consistent listener. He headed, uh, Dr. Tim Elmore on one of his most recent podcasts, talking about Generation Z.
Nick Clason (00:57):
So, just got me thinking. Let's talk, let's chat Gen Z today. Let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk a little bit about some of the distinctives between them and some of the older, different, newer generations. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. Um, hopefully, I don't know, I don't wanna promise anything. Maybe next week, Matt will be back. Um, started, we started talking and circling around the drain about what it would look like to schedule. He, uh, he's in Colorado now. I'm in Texas, and so he's an hour earlier. So, you know, someone's getting up early. It's probably me, I'm not gonna lie. But anyway, uh, that is, that's what is, today we're gonna talk about Generation Gap. What's the difference between Boomers Xers, millennials, and Generation Z? We're gonna talk about how you can use digital to enhance your in-person experiences. And finally, we're gonna talk about how small is the new outreach plan and method that Generation Z is interested in. So let's go.
Nick Clason (02:00):
All right, what's up, everybody? Uh, let's talk generation Gap. Um, how many of you have ever, uh, wanted to work from home, um, versus work in the office? I think almost all of us are interested in the hybrid work environment type of thing, but most of us work for a corporation, for a man that requires us to be in the office. Um, think about this. Um, I have worked in a couple of churches where there is a paid for gigantic storage server, and that storage server is only available if you are on the church wifi network. That is an office mentality. Compare that to, you know, two terabytes of Google Drive storage for $6 a year that you can get, you know, um, or a Dropbox office account or, uh, 20 terabytes of Google Drive storage or, you know, any of the other numerable cloud-based storage options.
Nick Clason (03:05):
You know, it's funny because like, I think this, this, this, uh, depiction can be most best portrayed through the comparison between Microsoft and Google. Okay? So, uh, let's just do some comparisons. Microsoft, they started it. They were a part of the office culture. Every office in the world in America has Microsoft Office. Every one of us is forced to use Microsoft Office or Microsoft Outlook or something like that. Okay? And so you have those products, you have those things. They were the industry standard, then comes along Google, what's the difference? Well, everything in Google is browser based. That's so, that was so foreign to Microsoft. Everything was programmatic. Everything was, um, something that you had to install, put on your hard drive, okay? And so then Google begins to compete with Microsoft, right? So they create Google Docs, Google Sheets, Google Slides. Guys, I'm telling you, as a youth pastor, I have teenagers who don't even know how to open Microsoft product.
Nick Clason (04:08):
But here's the thing, they don't actually need to, like, there are, there are just ever so slightly a few limitations between a Google, like, I think the biggest one I see is the Google Slides and Microsoft PowerPoint, but not much. I've had kids who have like, let teach or whatever, build full on presentations in Google Slides, and then they just send it to me. It's a usable, it is a presentable, it is a, uh, it is a, a product that has now competed with, with Microsoft's office, right? Microsoft's office has since tried to adapt and change. And so they've tried to create documents, word, Excel, and the like that you can edit, um, as you go so that like multiple contributors can view as those edits are taking place. Here's the thing, the reality is that Google is a superior product, and we all know it.
Nick Clason (05:01):
My favorite story about this is last summer, um, at the church I was at before they had switched everybody over to Microsoft Teams as a collaboration method, which teams was fine from a chat perspective. It's like slack light in my personal opinion. But, uh, what we would put all of our storage for like our camp messages in a Microsoft team's folder that was built through SharePoint, which is Microsoft's thing. Not one drive not to be confused with one drive again, so, so clear. I know. Um, and so you, I I, I would make a Word document in teams with a link to a Google doc, and then I would do alma editing in Google Docs. Why did I do that? A because it was very redundant to build something in Google Docs, which is where I was doing it, which was always evolving, always updating, always auto saving, versus having to copy and paste that over into Microsoft Teams every single time.
Nick Clason (05:57):
And then remember, Oh, yeah, I gotta go over there and update that in Microsoft Teams if anyone wants to see it. So, um, I said, everything in Google Docs, there's a story of a, a kid, um, in Ohio who worked at a painting company. Um, this is, this is from the, the Timmel Moore interview. And he says that he worked for a painting company and he posted a TikTok of himself mixing some paint. No big deal. But he got like, I think over a million views on it and, and, or I'm not sure, a million followers, something big, something in the millions. And so what he did, you know what he did? He went to his executives and he said, Hey, I think we're missing out on an untapped market. Um, and I think that, you know, he presented this whole pitch and he, he was surprised.
Nick Clason (06:42):
You know why? Because not only did they not go with his idea, they fired him because they said, You're not working on your, your your bo you're stealing from company time. This is the difference we're talking about between the generation gap, the office culture versus the hybrid work environment. And I think both sides have valid agreements. I think that the office side, like, Hey, gotta get there, gotta get your work done, gotta work hard, gotta be reliable, gotta be dependable. But I think that also there are new innovative ideas. And this painter guy, he lost his job, picked up, move from Ohio down to Florida, started his own painting company. It's like that's what's gonna happen, uh, as opposed to people adapting and conforming to old school ways of, of doing things. Instead, they're just gonna pick up and they're gonna leave. So how do you keep good, meaningful talent? How do you reach Generation Z that just thinks categorically, fundamentally differently? And how do you use their creativity that they have and the, the way that they see the world and the way that they, uh, interact with online and digital and the people around them? How can you use that to your advantage?
Nick Clason (07:57):
All right, What about using digital means to enhance in-person gatherings? When we all got shut down for Covid, uh, I think everybody had to turn to digital only as the option. And how do we replicate and reproduce what make what's happening in the room or in the building or in in room programming? How do we turn that into a completely fully digital experience? And the fact of the matter is, you can't, you cannot replicate and reproduce face to face engagement. Um, but you also, and the same is true on the flip side. You cannot replicate what happens online in the room. So let's use, um, my, my marriage with my wife, for example. We have a relationship, obviously we have two kids, so obviously, um, we live in a house, we do life together, like all the things. Uh, and she's at home. We'll text her out the day.
Nick Clason (08:57):
There'll be times where, uh, she'll call me on video and be like, Hey, what do you think about this? Give me your opinions on that. Um, we'll do all those types of things, right? Uh, and there's even been times where for extended weeks, either one of us is apart from the other. I mean, when we're part, like, that's, that's hard. Like that is a challenging moment for our relationship. You know what I mean? So what, uh, cuz eventually we, like, we want to be back together. So the same is true for your churches. Like what happens in a small group setting, one on one living life together in community, um, in Ko Ania Fellowship as the Greek word is family carrying one another's burdens, praying for one another, supporting one another, encouraging one another, admonishing one another. Those things can happen digitally, but they mostly and best happen together when you're knee and knee eyeball to eyeball, able to give a hug to one another.
Nick Clason (10:04):
So how do you use what is going on online with what is also happening in the room? So how can you use Instagram to be like a recap to post pictures, to post reels, as we've talked about on this podcast multiple times to do live voting. Like one of my favorite things is to have a live vote that's taking place in Instagram stories while programming or while you're, um, in room experience is taking place. You can use some of those things to, to drive up drum up engagement. What about TikTok? What about devotionals that you put on there that are tied to the most recent message or recaps that that flesh out the most recent idea, message, whatever. Um, another one, one of my all time favorites is what about reading the Bible? You version plans. What about doing that together? If you're in a small group, what about, uh, being in a a bible study, a you version plan together.
Nick Clason (11:06):
So what if you're reading at the same time, uh, throughout the week and then you come together in person to discuss it? See, these are all ways that we create this mesh of, of real life that something is happening digitally, but it's not looking to supplant or replace what's happening online, but it's looking to strategically come in alongside it and enhance and raise the bar on the overall experience. You know, I just got like a, a brand new, uh, the brand new Google Pixel phone, man. It is a, it is the biggest phone I've ever held in my hand. Like my thumb hurts now because I am not used to the reach that is required on me. But like when I open the home screen, it has the weather and then the first thing it has is it says, um, uh, projected commute, time to work, typical delays, moderate traffic.
Nick Clason (11:57):
Like that's pulling directly off of Google Maps because it knows where I am and where I live, and it knows where I work and what it takes to get there, right? That's an example of a hybrid enmeshment. How can the church offer more of that? I find so often that the defacto answer for the church is come online or not Come online, come, come on Sunday, see you nine o'clock and 10 30 and that's it, right? Like, hey, like, like you got an amazing tagline. Like, we wanna reach all people for all generations to know, follow, seek, and become great disciples of Jesus Christ. That's great. If it's catchy, better, whatever. And then what's the actions of, what's the call to action immediately out of that come to church? How can you use the digital resources that you have around you to enhance that, um, and to create moments where students, people, your congregants can connect with you and God throughout the other days of the week?
Nick Clason (13:05):
All right? I'm wondering if small is the new outreach method. When I was growing up in youth group, the outreach method was let's rent out a laser tag place. Let's, um, charge everybody five bucks. And for every friend you bring, it's a dollar off. And so if you bring five friends, you and all your friends get to go for a hundred percent completely free. You get unlimited video games, unlimited pizza, unlimited soda as much as you want. That was an amazing outreach event when I was a kid. Or yuck night, we get to throw, uh, food at 500 of our least closest friends and strangers, and we're walking away with mashed potatoes in our ears and we have to go home and we have to shower and take care of it and all this stuff, right? Like, what if those are not the most effective outreach tools anymore?
Nick Clason (13:57):
A recent study on Gen Z, um, and I, I may have referenced this before, I think I probably did from Crossroads Church in Cincinnati, they were able to conduct a survey of students that were still under the age of 18. So a lot of our Gen Z data is of Gen Zers, who are over the age of 18 because of consent reasons, but crossroads through their data department at their church, were able to survey the kids and granted in their church, So this is, you know, regional Cincinnati, um, but they're 76% of their non-churched generation Z students under the age of 18. So kids that are like viable eligible for their, uh, youth group or whatever, 76% of the not connected to church students said that they preferred smaller gatherings versus large parties. Our default I feel often in church, especially in youth ministry, is how are we gonna reach people?
Nick Clason (14:53):
Let's throw a big party. I mean that, gosh, it is so ingrained in me, like it is so hard to even break that. Like next week we're having a costume party. And so I'm thinking all the things, I'm pulling out all the stops, I'm doing all the hype. But the reality is like, how do we create more warm and more intimate environments for students? Because we, we sat down, uh, with our upperclassmen and our student ministry and we asked them like, um, we talked about what Wednesday nights looked like, and we said the purpose of that is for a lost person to come. And they're like, Yeah, but, but my friend wouldn't come to this. And it's like, first of all, a gut punch. Boom. Oh, but b like, okay, then what? Then why are we doing this? We're doing this because some version of a teenager's friend from 10, 15, 20 years ago, my friend from when I was in high school, would've come to the programming that I'm producing, but maybe not our current students and, and church leader hear me?
Nick Clason (15:52):
Because you're like, Well, yeah, well, I'm in, I'm in, you know, I do adult ministry, or I'm the lead pastor, I'm executive pastor, whatever. Like, great. However, Generation Z is not just teenagers. They are 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 years old. And, and hear me when I say this, younger millennials are also in that same age, um, demographic. And in that same way of thinking, they're looking for more warm opportunities. I'll give you an example. Just start a new church. Uh, and their moniker is we're all about connect groups. We're all about connection, connection, connect, connection. Getting a connect group. The best way to take the next step in your faith is getting a connect group. Great. I agree with that. Every single stop of ministry I've been in along the way, I've been in some form of a small group, me and my wife, it's a thing we do.
Nick Clason (16:41):
We've made it a priority. We've woven it into our schedule. We've dug deep paid for babysitters, you know, done whatever we needed to do to make that happen. Okay? Well connect groups are on Sunday morning, which is also when student ministry programming is happening. And I'm, you know, responsible to be in the room for that. So if I want to connect as a staff member, there really is, there really is no way under the, the current existing framework of the church or my wife can go, but I can't. But if she wants to serve, then we're not gonna be able to go together, right? Like, I am looking for connection. I'm looking for something. I, and so if I'm asking, right, like, hey, are there any groups that that don't meet on campus, um, or that don't meet on Sunday morning? And the answer is yes, but they're unsanctioned.
Nick Clason (17:35):
Like they're not, they don't fall under the framework of the connect group strategy. They're prob they're not resourced the same way. So like, where do I find that small, like that more intimate type of gathering? And again, if, if you're, um, older and you have grown up in church in a while, like what you're probably hearing is okay, yeah, that's what you want, You're a pastor. But what's fascinating is we're hearing from our high schoolers that that's what they want to bring their friends to. Maybe not the kumbaya session, but like when their connect group does a barbecue, like they'll invite them to that when their connect group goes bowling, they'll invite them to that. When their connect group goes to laser tag, they'll invite them to that, and that's gonna be 10, 15, 20, 25 kids. But when the entire youth ministry goes to laser tag 500 kids, they're like, Nah, it's not me.
Nick Clason (18:28):
I'm out not interested. And so how do we create smaller, more warm environments? And guess what, guys? Guess what, Guess what? That's easier to reproduce than the large scale of it. You know, I think for years, especially as a youth pastor at smaller churches in smaller environments, what I would do is I would look to the big guys and I'd be like, Well, once I get there, I will have made it. And then all the kids will come flocking. And, and the irony, what I realized is that's honestly been the exact opposite or the bigger it's gotten, the more challenging it's been to try and figure out how to create and make it small, warm environment. Hey, once again guys, thank you for hanging out with me today. We are on Twitter @hybridministry. We are online hybridministry.xyz because of course, hybrid ministry.com was taken not being used, but taken. So check us out on there. You can get show notes. We have full transcripts. We provide and pay for that every single week. So I hope that you're taking advantage of that. And until next time, talk to you later. See ya!
20 min
October 13, 2022 Episode 013: 3 Hybrid Ministry Lessons Learned from a Moving Company
SUMMARY
In this episode, Nick recounts his experience with his most recent move and his moving company, and pulls out some wisdom he discovered along the way about how to approach ministry and more particularly, Hybrid Ministry. Learn to Think Digital, Be Kind and Be Clear!
Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/hybridministry
Or online at http://www.hybridministry.xyz
TIMECODES
00:00-01:19 Intro and Housekeeping
01:19-05:47 Thinking Digital
05:47-09:07 Kindness goes a long way
09:07-12:17 Be Clear
12:17-15:02 Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What up everybody? Welcome to episode number 13, um, of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, as always, Nick Clason. And, um, bad news, Matt is in Spain, and, um, he just started a new job. And so I was talking to him last week on the phone and he has to figure out his computer situation. Doesn't even know if he is gonna have one or not. So listen, there may be some changes on the horizon. He may be back. Maybe I'll figure something out. Um, maybe not, but that's okay. Um, and I'll just be honest. Um, my moving truck came in today, Oh my word. It has been 10 days of sleeping on an air mattress. And I don't know if you've seen that TikTok about corn. It's such a beautiful thing. Uh, but if you go follow me on TikTok at Clason, nick, it's c l a s o n, no Y in there.
Nick Clason (01:00):
Um, I just posted TikTok about how my bed is the most beautiful thing, not corn. Sorry kid. Oh man. It's so good to sleep on a, on a regular mattress again. Uh, actually I haven't even done that yet. I am recording before I go to bed. Um, all that being said, probably gonna be a pretty short pod. Uh, but I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea. Um, and I just wanna brand it. Say, um, let's try to think digital, um, why we're not gonna think digital because of digital for digital's sake, right? But what I wanna do with thinking digital is, first of all, couple of ideas. Number one, uh, when things are made digital, it's just easier, right? And so, you know, I think there's sometimes this notion in church of the fact of like, if you're gonna follow Jesus, it's gonna be hard.
Nick Clason (01:55):
So we're not gonna make it easy on you, so suck it up. And if you wanna send up to serve, we're not gonna give it to you in two clicks. You gotta go talk to Carl, who's the head usher and get on Carl's Excel spreadsheet, right? Or whatever the case may be. But digital is just so much easier. Um, I'll give you an example. Talking about my moving company. Um, they took my stuff 10 days ago or so in Chicago and, um, no one was super clear with me about what the process was gonna be. So, uh, the next day I just called the company. I was like, Hey, so how do we like schedule this? They're like, Oh, we'll call you. And that was it. And I just, uh, there was some stuff and moving companies are never like the most upright, forthright. So there was just some stuff that like concerned me a little bit.
Nick Clason (02:51):
And so, uh, I wasn't, I was not okay with that being the only answer. And so I wanted to continue. I stayed on 'em, I stayed hot on their tail. Uh, but it was a pain in the, But let me tell you what, like, uh, they did not have an infrastructure for somebody who was interested in knowing the whereabouts of the contents of their house. Uh, their, their infrastructure was when we're ready to bring you your things, we will tell you. But until then we got nothing for you. Um, compare that to Amazon, Who has an updated ETA delivery? Lets, you know when the item is 10 stops away from your house and you can track it on the, on the map. Like, uh, what I was thinking I should have done, you know, after, of course everything's loaded and I'm here in Texas just waiting for my stuff to arrive.
Nick Clason (03:48):
So I was like, Man, I should have put some sort of find my iPhone or GPS tracking device or something on the truck just so I can know where the contents of my house were sitting. You know, like that, that has just been interesting to me. And you know, I don't think that this moving company has any desire to, uh, to change their ways, you know? But I was reaching out, I was thinking about reaching out to 'em and just saying, Hey, you know, if you had some sort of tracking system or whatever, like that would've made a my life a lot easier, but b, yours as well. Cause I wouldn't have called you 36 times trying to figure out where everything was. So think digital. How can you make it easier? How can you give, uh, an how can, how can you give a, uh, user experience one that's just a little bit easier?
Nick Clason (04:39):
So think about someone at your church wants to sign up to serve. Can they find that information on your website? If they want to attend your church, can they find that information on your website? If they want to join a small group, do they have to ask somebody what in the world the name of this small group means? Because it's some acronym that you created 36 years ago that no one even really remembers anymore, but everyone just calls it the Frog Group. And you're like, Oh yeah, what's that mean? Like, fuck yo. Yeah. Fully rely on God. Yeah, Carl named it that 10 years ago, right? I don't know what my vendetta is against Kyle, Kyle, Carl, but what, like, do you have something, um, that's clear and that makes it easier for the person? Because the fact is, like, as things get more difficult, uh, people just tend to give up. So keep that in mind. And you're like, Well, that's not committed. Yeah, it's also just human psychology. And so it's not that people aren't committed, but, but make it, make it like, make it accessible for people. Make them be able to attach to it.
Nick Clason (05:48):
All right? Another idea, um, I had on thinking digital is, is this, um, again, tales from a moving company. Um, the customer service of this moving company was awful, right? So the movers, um, in Chicago were fine. The movers in Dallas, uh, they were super kind and so, so much better than the movers that I had in Chicago. Um, the guy who sold me, uh, the truck and everything, great guy. Um, but also like, not total, not sure if he was totally truthful. And then, but the person in between, they put me in, in touch with, uh, George. So George sold me on the moving company and everything like that. They put me in touch with George's manager. Her name is Pauline. And, um, I don't know if I've ever met somebody who is, uh, seems so annoyed with human contact in my entire life.
Nick Clason (06:48):
And I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm not trying to be like a, an an awful Christian, right? But like, she had no desire to talk to me. Like her company held the contents of my entire life. And I was just calling to say, Hey Pauline, how's things going? Any idea on the eta my truck? Again, mind you, they have no way to let me know that. Like, they just give me a window and say that's when it's gonna be. So I'm just supposed to be okay with that, right? Meanwhile, everyone I'm talking to is like, that's taking forever. That's crazy. Why is this so long? And then I'm talking to them and they're like, No, it's not, it's not that long. Like, you just feel like it's long. It's really not that big a deal. Like what? What? Right? You know? So it's like I call her and I just felt like I was annoying her.
Nick Clason (07:36):
She's like, Hello. Um, and so be kind to people like figure out the best way in which you can, um, make people's lives easier. Like how, how is your interaction with that person going to make their life easier? And then let's think about how you can do that digitally. Because the fact of the matter is, if you're a church, you're probably only only interacting with someone on a Sunday morning or maybe a Wednesday night or some midweek type of deal. How can you also bring that level of customer service? How can you bring that level of joy and satisfaction to your digital channels, to your social media so that the people that are following you, so the people that are engaging with you, are seeing the joy that Jesus has brought into your life. And you're exuding that not only in your in-person interactions, but also in your digital interactions.
Nick Clason (08:26):
See, that stuff matters. And I'll just tell you, as somebody who's been on the other side of a not so joyful person and company, um, it has made my experience with this company terrible. I I will never use them again. And quite honestly, this is like the third move I've made that's been significant, where I've had to load up a truck and all that stuff, and honestly, they probably did the best job of any moving company I've ever done, uh, as far as like the actual loading and the actual wrapping of a furniture and all those types of things. But the reality is I'll never go with them again. Why customer service? They made me feel terrible and they made me feel stupid the entire way through. Last thing, be clear. Be clear with what's going on. Again, um, tales from a moving company. So, uh, this guy George, he, he books me, uh, for, um, a, you know, a price.
Nick Clason (09:22):
And he says, I'm overestimating based on what you're telling me. So you're probably gonna pay less. Guy walks in Chicago, and he's like, uh, it's actually gonna be $3,000 more than, um, what George told you on the phone. Like, hold on a minute, right? Like, that's a lot of money. And uh, of course in reading the reviews, it sounded like this was standard practice for this company. Um, but, but then, right? Like I said, then they drove away. And it wasn't until later that night or the next day, we were dawned on me, I was like, Wait a minute. I don't know how to schedule pick up. I don't know when to expect my truck. Like, I, I have no idea, right? Like, I just, there's no clarity on the process, right? And so think about if someone wants to volunteer in your ministry, are you clear on what the steps are, right?
Nick Clason (10:17):
Like I'm a youth pastor, and so to volunteer in youth ministry, in most cases, and in most churches, it's gonna be, uh, quite, quite cumbersome to be honest with you, because we're gonna be running back around checks and we're gonna be probably checking references, and we're probably gonna be having you do some sort of, uh, training, um, that, you know, some video training on, you know, sexual abuse or, uh, mandated reporting or the child protective services laws in your state, or whatever the case may, right? Like it takes a lot to get you into a position of influence and into the same room with a bunch of teenagers, rightfully so, as it should, right? But be clear, if someone's like, I wanna volunteer youth ministry, great, you're on the team, and then they get home and they have 37 emails from you, from your admin, from the screening company, from whatever, and you're calling references, and they didn't give chance to give those references a head up heads up.
Nick Clason (11:17):
Like, just be clear. And, and even if it's right, like if this company, this moving company would've told me like, Hey, it's gonna be seven to 17 days for transit from Chicago to Texas. While that's a long time, and I'm not a fan of that, Like I would've known it and I wouldn't have been freaking out quite as much wondering where in the world my things are because there was no one laid it out for me. There was no clarity. I had to go seek it out. And by the time I got to the end of the line, I got to a customer service representative who didn't really want to talk to any customers. And so if they would've laid that out, I wouldn't have had to a slug through so many phone calls, you know, call the company, press one for this, two for that, and getting myself worked up or myself frustrated all the way along the way.
Nick Clason (12:06):
So, so just be clear, right? So number one, think digital. Number two, be nice, be kind to people. And number three, be clear and lay things out. Again, like I said, um, you got the brunt of my frustration of unloading, unpacking, moving truck, but we're here, we're settled. And, uh, listen, like, say whatever you want, think whatever you want, but I've been able to keep these suckers rolling out every Thursday morning consistently. And so that's been a feat in and of itself. Like I said, now that things are hopefully settling down a little bit, uh, we'll be able to maybe line up schedule with Matt. If not, that's fine. I'm gonna keep, uh, solo pod in it and just, uh, do my best Colin Cowherd impression. Uh, but excited to be continuing on this journey with you. Uh, in the couple weeks, I wanna let you know how our digital initiative stuff are going.
Nick Clason (13:00):
We had a website conversation with our communications people last week, um, here in Texas at our church to create a more hub style, uh, website. Um, and then this week, um, so I'm like five of six, six tos in. Um, I've gone head first into a three day TikTok posting strategy. So it's a lot of forethought and planning, but, uh, this is now the second time I've done it, and so I found it to be quite a bit easier. And so, um, while it may seem daunting at first, once you kind of get your bearings a little bit, um, you'll, you'll be a little, you know, you'll be a little bit better. And then last, uh, listen, I mean, there's nothing to be proud of. And, um, I'm shooting right now on a same Sun Galaxy S nine phone, terrible quality. I just, uh, pre-ordered the brand new, uh, Google Pixel Pro seven, so it's like the best camera right there on the market, either between that or the newest iPhone.
Nick Clason (13:57):
So, um, it's weird, I'm an Apple guy for everything, but for phones, I'm, I'm the same or I'm a Android person. So when you do Google Pixel, um, and uh, check out the new phone quality on that. Uh, but if you wanna go check out what we're posting on TikTok, we're at first Colville students, um, on TikTok and Instagram, posting the exact same content both on reels there on Instagram and on TikTok. So, like I said, we're just getting started with that this week. Um, and it's gonna be a lot of me on there. I'm gonna try and diversify it with my team here in the coming weeks, but just wanted to get things up and rolling, uh, there on TikTok. So, hey, thanks for hanging out. Appreciate it. Uh, love to hear from you guys. We're hybridministry.xyz online. We're also @hybridministry on Twitter. And, uh, we'll talk to you next time. See you guys.
16 min
October 06, 2022 Episode 012: Why Email and Social may not satisfy the on demand world we live in. Is Social Media for your church even worth it? And are Big Events only for the Pastor's Ego?
SUMMARY
In this solo pod Nick explores three big ideas. Why Email and Social may not satisfy the on-demand world and culture that we currently live in. Is Social Media for your church even worth it Especially if you just are using it as an extension of your announcements? And are Big Events only for the Pastor's Ego? Or do they still have a place in our churches? All that and more on this week's episode of the Hybrid Ministry Podcast!
Follow along at http://hybridministry.xyz
Or come hang out on Twitter at http://twitter.com/hybridministry
TIMECODES
00:00-04:34 - Intro
04:34-13:07 - Why Email and Social may not satisfy the on demand world we live in.
13:07-18:39 - Is Social Media worth it in your church?
18:39-27:09 - Big Events are for the Ego of the Pastor, not the People
27:09-27:50 - Outro
SHOWNOTES
http://Nucleus.Church
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:00):
What up everybody? And welcome to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, this morning solo pod from my new house in Dallas, Texas, and my guest bedroom closet because, uh, none of my stuff is in the house yet. And so every single place I go is gonna be echoy and the least echoy place is the guest bedroom closet. As best as I can tell, you'll have to let me know, cuz honestly, you're on the hearing side of this. I'm on the talking side of this. And so, uh, this is my best attempt. Um, I've mentioned it in previous episodes, Uh, gonna be a solo pod today. Uh, both me and Matt are actually in the middle of moves. Uh, we, my wife and I, uh, we got a little bit of a jumpstart on him and his wife, and so they, I believe his truck is maybe coming today.
Nick Clason (01:07):
Um, and so anyway, so today on this episode, I wanted to just chat about a couple of hot takes. Um, three in particular. I wanted to do three hot takes. And number one, I wanted to talk about how we now live in a more on demand world and how social media, um, or email marketing may not be the best way to approach some of that on demand world. Wanted just chat through and brainstorm some stuff with you guys. The second hot take was, um, social media might not actually be worth it, um, in your churches, uh, if you do some of these things I'm gonna talk about. And then number three, I think that big large scale events are actually more for the pastor's ego than for the actual people who are going to be consuming them. So we'll dive into those a little bit, um, here in just a second.
Nick Clason (02:04):
But like I said, uh, just a quick like, update. So when, when we got this sucker up, up and rolling off the ground, I, uh, recorded, uh, pre-recorded five podcasts. And so I had five in the queue before we ever even launched episode one. With all the hustle and bustle moving and just the absolute impossibility has seemed for Matt and I to be able to coordinate our schedules. Um, I am now recording this episode one day before it will release tomorrow, Thursday morning, October 6th. And so, um, I to keep things rolling, to remain consistent, my goal is to give you something every single Thursday morning. Um, it's, it, you know, I'm just letting you know like that. That's sort of why, like, I could wait and Matt and I could get on the same page, but we're gonna miss a couple posts. Um, and so I'm gonna keep bringing you guys some stuff.
Nick Clason (03:02):
Um, and when life settles down for the both of us, we will make this happen. But like I said, I'm on the tail end of a move. Um, my family and I rolled into town last Friday, closed on a house here in, uh, Fort Worth, Texas, uh, to start a new job at church in the DFW metroplex area. Love it. Super excited working with, um, former boss of mine who, uh, so it's, you know, it's a great ex experience, um, and also feels incredibly familiar even though I'm in a new church. I'm in a similar youth ministry environment, so that's really exciting. Um, and then Matt's actually gonna be stepping into a different role as well, and I'll let him talk a little bit more about that. But his first, uh, day on the job is actually gonna be in Spain. And so, uh, who knows, you know, how soon we'll be able to be together on the podcast again.
Nick Clason (03:56):
But our goal is to continue to bring something to y'all, um, and continue to bring both of our voices. I I'm not a gigantic fan of these solo pods. It feels like just a lot of rambling into an empty microphone with very little feedback, pushback, conversation. Um, but I'm gonna do my best in learning and I'm trying to make it something that is gonna be worth everybody's while. So without any anymore explanation for all that, um, I'm just trying to give you a little quick update, some housekeeping stuff. Uh, I wanted to dive into a couple of ideas. So let's go, let's make this happen. All right. Idea number one, we live in an on demand world. So is social media and is email marketing the most effective way to communicate? Think about this. Uh, we live in a Netflix as opposed to a cable TV centric world.
Nick Clason (04:54):
10 years ago, maybe even 15 years ago, the only way to consume your favorite TV show, if you wanted to watch Seinfeld, you had to tune in on Thursday evenings at 8:00 PM I'm not actually sure if that's true or not. Actually, what I do know is true is the Office, right? Every Thursday night, sometime between eight or 9:00 PM I remember, cause I was in college and we didn't, we weren't, um, allowed, We were at a Christian university. We were not allowed to have, uh, televisions in our room. And streaming, um, was available, but it wasn't available until the next day. And so the only way to watch the office at my Christian university was to go find a lounge with a tv. The lounges were allowed to have TVs and cable, uh, or satellite, but none of the rooms were. And so Thursday night was on demand viewing opportunities.
Nick Clason (05:48):
People would come in and flood the lounges. It, there was literally not a seat in the house. If you wanted to sit and watch the office, you had to get there a couple of hours early in the anticipation of it. And you probably had to sit through the NBC Nightly news and you probably had to sit through a couple other sitcoms like community or something like that before the office ever even came on. Now, I compare that to the idea of the way that Disney Plus is releasing things. Like if I wanna watch the newest episode of She Hulk, I can get up at three o'clock in the morning the day that it releases and watch it from the comfort of my own house. But in the fact that I've been moving and traveling and I took my family to Disney World last week, two weeks ago, like, I'm not caught up on She Hulk, but I will, I'll get caught up on it or Stranger Things, right?
Nick Clason (06:38):
When Stranger Things comes out, it is a all day viewing experience. It is an on-demand, it is a binge worthy experience. Uh, so much so that Netflix has recently adjusted the way that they released it. And so they released it now in two different parts. Now, I just wanna think about how that behavior there, the Netflix versus the cable experience, how that behavior has changed the way that we as humans, um, expect to consume content, right? Like, think about it. I, in a Netflix world, I want information when I want it. How many of you in ministry have sent some sort of email newsletter and then you still get the question from a teenager or a parent, Hey, when is the deadline again? And you're like, I communicated this. Like, this has been so clear, This has been so obvious. The reason why I think is when you send it to them, you're sending it to them in a, a cable centric mentality.
Nick Clason (07:47):
Like, I will send you this email every Tuesday at 9:00 AM That's if you are even that discipline, a lot of us, we're not, we're not sending emails with that amount of consistency and regularity, and I don't know that I'm ready to abandon the whole email idea, But what I do know is that we don't live in a cable TV centric world where Thursday night at 8:30 PM is on demand, uh, must watch tv. Very few people live that way. And that's gonna be the same way with your emails. And that's gonna be the same way with your stage announcements. And that's gonna be the same way with your social media announcement posts. And so how do we switch to a more on demand way to consume content or way to find community? Again, I think another beautiful example of this is joining a small group outta church.
Nick Clason (08:44):
I think a lot of churches have the small group process basically be, Hey, if you wanna join a small group, go talk to Carl. And then Carl plays matchmaker. And I like, if I want to sign up for a small group, I wanna just go browse the available options and I wanna sign up for a small group. You may call that consumer of me, but I, I actually appreciate it in and like to anticipate the control or the ability that I have to make that happen on my own. I, I will, if I'm finding a new veterinarian or if I'm finding a new doctor, if I'm finding a new dentist, if I'm finding a new counselor, like I prefer to find those things by going to those people's websites and creating my own appointment. Like one of the things that I absolutely hated, this may be the millennial me, I don't know, but when I was looking for quotes to move, um, I would find these websites and they're like, click through here to get an instant quote.
Nick Clason (09:49):
And I was like, Oh, awesome. And so I put in on my info, you know, four bedroom house, this estimated amount of stuff, whatever. And then they would say, Awesome, your quote is ready. Call one 800, whatever, whatever, whatever, to get your quote. That's not on demand. No, it's not. No. Now I have to talk to a customer service representative. And the problem is that the, when the default is you, hey, you gotta talk to customer service representative. Yes, I'm not trying to hit away from the, uh, talking to other people the importance of that, right? We know that human connection and human conversation is important, but what I am trying to say is we can, we live in a world and we have tools, digital tools and things that can make it possible for people to find those resources and come to that on their own.
Nick Clason (10:41):
So how can we do that in churches? What are ways that we can make that happen? A couple of ideas I have, I talked about this a couple podcasts to go where I said, Hey, here's what I'm pitching for my new church. Um, create a central hub strategy. And I don't wanna take any sort of credit for this. Like Brady Sheer and the guys over at Pro Church Tools, they have been preaching this for years. And they have, they have a website tab, boot nucleus, uh, called nucleus.church, check out their product and you can build your own central hub style website where, and it's a, it's super easy to edit. It's one of my all-time favorite website editors. Uh, but b it looks so good, it's so sleek, it's mobile friendly. Like that is, that is where you can, um, send emails still and send social media things, but you can direct and drive everything back to the website where it's consistent every single time.
Nick Clason (11:33):
And you're saying, Hey, for more information, head to fill in the blank. And that creates, um, that puts the, that puts the onus back on the user. And you're saying, Hey, if you want this information, if you want it on demand, if you wanna watch it like you consume Netflix, here's where to go. And that, what that does then is that makes it the impetus beyond you or on us as the church leaders to make sure that those websites are updated. I think more often than not, the um, the, the website is one of the last things that we think to edit. And I think in this new world that we're moving into, and in this on demand world, websites almost need to be the first thing that we edit. It's interesting, like I said, I'm starting a new job, but with an old boss and just before him and I both left, um, we were both working at, at my last church, I was like, we need to, we need to tighten up the website.
Nick Clason (12:30):
And he said, Ah, I, he's like, I always think of the website as a last, last ditch effort. He's like, But you're right. We need to switch. We need to make that first. And so here we are now in our new gig and he asked me yesterday, What's your, what's your digital strategy? Do you have one? And I said, Yeah, but it's gonna be contingent independent on the website. And you know, if you're a pastor or you work in church ministry, you know how this is, right? And I said, So that, that requires us to have a conversation with communications and get them on the same page cuz we're, we're, uh, dependent upon them to kind of get some of this stuff that we want flushed out, finished out. All right, take number two. Social media is not worth it unless you're willing to try some new things.
Nick Clason (13:22):
I think a lot of churches are just doing social media as an announcement extension. And man, I would just say if that's all you're doing with social media, just keeping the ship afloat, just doing things because it's what you feel like you should do need to do. Everyone else is on social media. They're telling you to do social media, but you're really, you don't have anyone invested in it. You don't have anybody tracking it. You don't have anybody watching the metrics to see what's growing, what needs to be having port gas pour onto it, what needs to be cooled and slowed and changed. Who's watching trends? Who's listening to the Pro Church Tools podcast? Who's listening to the Hybrid Ministry podcast to stay up to date on what's going on on social media and to you, like, as a church, you have to be willing to try things that are gonna be different because social media, digital ministry is a new way to reach people.
Nick Clason (14:19):
And I think it's effective. And so I I would actually push back and say, I do think it's worth it, but I, but the reason I don't think it will be worth it is if you're, if you're just gonna stick it on autopilot. I think there are very few ways to, uh, post and, and do social media type things without, um, being willing to be a mold breaker, without being willing to take some risks, without being willing to rethink some of the old ways of doing things. A lot of the traditional methods on social media are not effective anymore, right? Like when, when right now, um, the entire focus on all of social media is discoverability, right? TikTok brought into this, brought into us this advent of finding content from people that you don't know. And so when people at your church, um, want to follow you or your account, uh, but you're posting reels or tos, things that are needing to be discovered by hopefully them, but also other people, like what are you gonna do?
Nick Clason (15:33):
Like, how, how then what's the call to action out of a real, out of a TikTok, right? Like, and so we gotta figure out as church, um, digital hybrid marketing people what our win is and what the purpose of doing it is, because it is, is just a really bad announcement extension. Like it can be that, but it's gonna be pretty lame and it's gonna be pretty ineffective. And people are really not on social media now. Um, or I, I should, I should watch what I say. I was gonna say, people are not on social media to follow people that they're friends with, and I don't think that's true. Um, but I think that the most popular form of social content right now is to consume videos, short form videos in particular of people that you're not friends with. Like when I'm on TikTok, I spend 95% of my time on the four UAB and I'm only over on the friends tab to clear that pesky red notification.
Nick Clason (16:43):
And then if I'm over there, I might see a video or two of some friends I follow and then I'll, or I'll see a few videos in a row of friends I follow and I'm like, Huh, this is crazy. Or friends I know like my sister and my friend Isaac. Um, and then I'm like, Oh, that's cuz I'm on the friends tab. Of course back over for you, right? Like, I don't know about you, but that's how I am behaving with it. And so I just, what I'm saying with this is, I'm not saying social media's not worth it, but I am saying you gotta be willing to take risks. And I think if you're unwilling to take risks or you don't have somebody who's willing to take risks and, and look at your individual church data, I don't know that it's gonna be worth it.
Nick Clason (17:28):
I don't know that it's gonna yield for you the results that you're looking for. Sure you can post some stuff, you can have some announcement adjacent stuff and you can just do some, you know, Facebook page type things. But, but is it really gonna be worth it? And are we really like gonna see the results that we're looking for? So get out there, break some stuff, stuff, try some stuff, be creative, be willing to take risks and don't put the breaks on your creatives or don't put the breaks on the people who are interested in this because listen, like this avenue in particular is going to be, um, the way and wave of the future and the way that you've been doing church and particularly the way that you've probably been doing social media is not gonna be what's a part of the next wave.
Nick Clason (18:18):
So let somebody who is comfortable with taking risks and comfortable with trying things, let them go fly, try and do some things, um, and don't get stuck in a rut and don't get stuck on autopilot because when you do, that's when things become far less, uh, interesting and far less effective. I take number three today in our final one. Big events are for the pastor, not the people. All right, now hear me out on this one, right? I think that a big event, filling a giant room is really a win for the person on the stage because it helps the pastor. And I'm a pastor and I would agree with this, it helps me feel successful. I look out across the landscape of the room and I say, Man, there's so many people here. Look how effective this event is. Look how many people are here.
Nick Clason (19:16):
I think the reality is though is that man, we really like, we are seeing a shift away from that like big event idea and that big event desire. Like we actually just, uh, talked to some of our juniors and seniors last week at the church I'm in. And um, you know, the church I'm in like, is, man, it is, is much different than the, the church as in before church as in before, is very, very much in a post-Christian world. Now we're in the Bible belt. Um, but what's fascinating is these students who are Gen Z are basically saying the same things. And they said like, we don't, we don't need this like, big event. It feels very, um, like almost forced, like what we want really for like our friends. Like we wanna just like invite them to like our small group and like if they're like exploring faith, like we wanna actually explore faith and give them something actually challenging, um, and have a hard conversation, not just a like Christian platitude.
Nick Clason (20:24):
And I was, I was actually, I was watching a show last night, uh, a house flipping show, um, and this couple is having a smaller wedding, um, and they're doing it in like a newly renovated and remodeled house. And so, you know, of course like the, the whole premise of the show is will these people renovate in this house, get it done in time for the wedding? And um, they were talking about like how this house, it's an old, is gonna be a renovated Victorian style house. So for those of you who are not super up on your HGTV of Victorian is, um, smaller rooms, um, and like just really ornate and elaborate kind of like decor. Um, but like not the whole open concept kind of idea. And so as these people were touring through the house, like, Oh, this would be good for our friends to have these smaller rooms, these smaller, more intimate gatherings so that people can actually stop and pause and have conversations with one another.
Nick Clason (21:37):
And that, that honestly was kind of the impetus for this hot take this morning cuz I was like, Wow, like those, I mean, they're, they're younger, right? Like they're probably in their twenties getting married, maybe thirties. Um, and they, you know, they got a little bit more of like an eclectic kind of vibe to 'em. But the reality is, is as like, I do think that that is far more what people are looking for. They're looking for intimacy, they're looking for connection over content. And so the big room gatherings were a content dump. It would get everybody in. And so that the pastor could deliver his content in the most efficient way possible, the most efficient way possible was to have a large auditorium and crams many people into that large auditorium as you can so that they all could hear what the pastor has to say.
Nick Clason (22:34):
Guys like that is, that is no longer the most efficient way possible. Is it effective still? Perhaps? Uh, but there's a greater efficiency out there, right? A pastor can talk into a microphone in his closet much like I'm doing right now and deliver that same level of content. So then if that has more efficiency, then what is the purpose of the Sunday morning gathering? And I know like, I'm a pastor, I get it theologically, Hebrews 10, 24 and 25, let us not give up meeting together as somewhere in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day approaching and you're like, that's the, that's the reason for the church gathering. And I would agree. I honestly though, like I'm not, no offense, like I've been at this church now for a month. Um, so I've been to, uh, I think a total of three, maybe four weekends, Sunday morning services.
Nick Clason (23:34):
Like I don't, I have to work, right? So like, uh, soon as the first service is over, I'm actually, I've, I've actually never been in the service long enough to be dismissed from it. I've slipped out every single week, uh, because I need to get over to student ministry section of the building to be ready for our thing, right? I don't talk to anybody really in the service. Like that encouragement, that admonishment that spurring me on like the, the Sunday morning gathering is, is not when that is taking place. Listen, I'm also, I'll be honest with you too, I'm a traditionalist. I enjoy that. But what is, who is it for? I think in a lot of ways it might actually be for the ego of the pastor. Um, I think I've mentioned this on here before, but at our last church, um, we saw a higher, um, percentage of engagement with students when we offered a smaller gathering.
Nick Clason (24:36):
Um, and we saw a better value in conversation with students in their smaller groups as opposed to in a large, a large scale gathering. I think, you know, we still saw success in the larger scale gatherings because kids like to come together. They still like to have fun together, they still like to play games together. Um, and so that obviously that's important. That fun is a value too, right? Um, but I, I remember telling a friend of mine who said, if I want to come back together, um, and bring everyone back together in the room, like I want to do that if I'm honest, like that's a value of mine. Like I enjoy that. However, if this talking about the small group system and setting is more effective, more efficient, um, and more what students want than I need to put my ego and my pride on the alter and be willing to offer to students what's better for them, even if it's a not, not what I want.
Nick Clason (25:42):
Alright? So let's put purpose over preference and then b um, I have to be willing to level up and train my, my leaders and my volunteer team to execute this plan or this play. Um, and it's gonna take more work on my part to develop them as leaders, uh, than just bring them all back together and we preach a message at them from, from the stage, right? Again, if that's what I want and that's what's easier, but it's not. What's better then? Let's actually give our students what's best. Why not? Because we're trying to be effective grow numbers. Look at metrics because we want students to have a meaningful encounter with the God of the universe to come to a knowing, saving knowledge and relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the way back to the Father is he says in John chapter 14, He's the way, he's the truth, he's the wife.
Nick Clason (26:44):
And if big events are hindrance to that or a Gen Z eye roll, like, uh, another one of these again, then let's not give it to him. Let's give them what they're going to use for the betterment of their faith in the betterment of the, their friends' faith as their friends try to explore what it looks like and means to follow Christ. Well, hey everyone, uh, hope you enjoyed today's episode. Tried a little bit of a different format here. It's, it's tough. Hang on to alo pod, like I said. So I wanted to give a couple of kind of hot takes and just, uh, express what to my heart where I'm coming from. So if you enjoyed it, let us know. Um, rate review. You can go to hybridministry.xyz. We are also on Twitter. I'm gonna try to start, um, being a little more active on there beyond just posting when episodes drop. So come over, give us a follow, come hang out with us. It's at hybrid ministry on Twitter. And, uh, love hanging out with you guys. Uh, let us know, uh, reach out, let us know if there's anything you'd like to hear specifically. And, um, until the next time, talk soon. Bye.
28 min
September 29, 2022 Episode 011: Building a Digital Strategy from Scratch and optimizing your church website for all intended audiences
SUMMARY
In this solo pod Nick sits down and discusses target audiences, building a digital ministry strategy from scratch at a church that doesn't have much to start with. And who knows how it's going to go, but you'll be along for the ride! For more head to http://hybridministry.xyz or follow us on twitter at http://twitter.com/hybridministry
SHOWNOTES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqhrIqTy2ZE&t=914s
https://prochurchtools.libsyn.com/email-newsletters-overwhelmed-church-staff-social-media-predictions-gone-wrong
https://prochurchtools.libsyn.com/email-open-rates-subject-lines-removing-inactive-subscribers
https://prochurchtools.com/7-proven-church-newsletter-ideas-that-really-work/
TIMECODES
00:00-01:13 Intro
01:13-03:03 My Digital Ministry Proposal for my Youth Ministry
03:03-04:01 Back Story
04:01-06:22 Why I love plain text emails
06:22-07:49 Building the Website from Scratch
07:49-12:17 Mapping out the Student Website
12:17-13:05 What to include on a parent website
13:05-13:54 What leaders need on a website
13:54-15:11 Why most church websites don't know who their intended audience is
15:11-15:42 How often to send emails
15:42-16:46 Youth or Student Ministry for SEO?
16:46-17:52 Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
Ooh, what's going on everybody. Uh, welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. I am your host, Nick Clason, excited to be joining you today this morning. Um, bright and beautiful morning. Uh, I am all, I'm doing another solo pod and I'm so sad cuz I love, love talking to Matt. Um, and we will probably share nothing bad, man. Like nothing bad. Uh, we'll probably share in a future episode, what is going on? Um, life is a little influx for both of us to be completely honest. Uh, as I said in the last episode I had just recently taken a job at a church in Texas. I'm currently sitting in the basement of my house in Illinois. Um, I am leaving for Disney in a day to go on vacation with my family. Uh, so life is absolutely chaos in mayhem. And so anyway, um, I wanted to just hop on here and uh, you know, just talk through a couple of things and uh, share some insights today.
Nick Clason (01:11):
Specifically I wanted to talk about the most recent digital ministry hybrid ministry proposal that I put together for the church that I'm working at. Um, and so, uh, gosh, maybe it was like five or so episodes ago I explained, you know, what we were doing at the church I was working at where I'm going, does not have as clearly of a defined digital strategy. It's also in the south. Um, it's the buckle of the Bible belt, Dallas. It feels like. Right. And so, um, there's a lot more of an in person kind of moment. And so how do we take what's already going on in person and create hybrid options? Why would we even wanna do that? What's the purpose of digital ministry, especially if an in person thing is going so well. And so I wanna jump in and explain kind of all of that today.
Nick Clason (02:01):
That's kind of the point, but like I said, we're a little bit in transition. My goal is to still never miss a Thursday drop. Uh, we have these set to go live every Thursday at four o'clock in the morning. And so as soon as you wake up on Thursday after a night of youth ministry, if your youth pastor or on your commute on the way on, in, on a Thursday, you should see one of these. You should get one of these in your podcast, catcher. Hey, listen. Also, we would just love it. If you would share the word. If you'd get this out there with a friend post on social media, tag us on Twitter at hybrid ministry, our website for we have full show notes, transcripts, we provide those all for you. A hundred percent for free at hybridministry.xyz also on our blog on there, we have a free downloadable checklist.
Nick Clason (02:48):
So go check that out. Um, anytime you post social media dos and don'ts, um, that's relevant as of now, you know, as long as algorithms and social networks don't change anything. But anyway, all that to be said, let's dive in. I wanted to, uh, chat a little bit. So just quick backstory, um, where I'm headed, uh, where I just most recent took good job is, um, the same place that, uh, my boss, a former boss, um, at my old job, uh, is now working as well. So he went to this church and, um, through a series of amazing supernatural, um, and other confirmation events I felt as the Lord was telling me to also go there, um, after having been offered an opportunity. And so that's kind of that, like I said, I, I think at some point me and Matt will share kind of our journeys and what's going on and, and all those types of things, but I'm gonna say that for another episode, but all that to be said, um, I'm walking into a brand new environment, but I'm walking into the exact same boss.
Nick Clason (03:52):
And so things are a little bit interesting. And so on like day two, I put together a proposal and I probably wouldn't have put together such a strong proposal. Um, however I put it together because I wanted to, uh, or I mean a cuz he trusted me and, and B cuz I had a lot of desires and opinions. And so the first thing which just started off of was he was saying, Hey man, do some research on email marketing. I was like, okay, fine. Right. Like, you know, I don't know if you know this or not. I host podcast, no big deal. Right. all about digital ministry hybrid ministry. Obviously I was joking. Um, the children's pastor at the church has an email newsletter and uh, I don't know. Um, one of the, one of the guys I'm super, um, I, I, that influences me a lot in this space is Brady sheer, um, of pro church tools, pro church tools podcast, and um, him along with a lot of research from HubSpot and stuff like that, they really, really push against marketing type emails and they push strongly towards plain text type emails.
Nick Clason (05:01):
Say they say that open rates are higher. Um, email algorithms, yes. Emails have algorithms. Uh, they, uh, email algorithms, you know, play more nicely with emails that look plain, text that look like it's just like a friend to a friend type of conversation as opposed to something that you would get from some gigantic corporation with a bunch of graphics and things like that. And so, um, you know, my, my boss, former boss also now current boss and friend, um, so I was, again able to be a little more direct. I feel like than if I was just starting completely brand new was like, Hey, I want this, I want our emails to look like the kids' ministry emails. He forwarded it to me and I said, Hey, that looks great. And it did. I mean, it looks amazing. Um, I said, however, you know, I sent 'em look like probably five or six links.
Nick Clason (05:53):
Um, and I can link those in the show notes. Uh, but I, I said five or six links about like, Hey, here's why we don't want to do this. Right. And, uh, he wasn't totally convinced. And so I said, Hey, here's the thing. Um, let's take a look at, um, maybe creating this in a website style. And so that's kinda, what I wanna talk about today is this, this proposal I put together for a hub based website. And so the communications guy at the church I'm working at now was not in the office last week. So, um, I sent this to my boss. He's going to sit down with the communications guy and pitch it when I'm gone at Disney next week. Uh, all that being said, I have no idea where this is gonna head, but this is kind of like us starting, um, hybrid digital ministry from the ground up.
Nick Clason (06:46):
Currently we have a website and we have an Instagram and that is it. There's really nothing else. I mean, we have an email list as well. It's pulled out of our church management software. And so what I wanted to do is I wanna do a hub style website where anyone at any time could go and check out. And so, uh, the thing in student ministry, um, like I said, I'm a youth pastor. So if you're not a youth pastor, um, this still applies. But, but the thing in student ministry, I think there's, what is your intended audience on your website? Is it students? Is it parents? Is it leaders? And the honest truth is that it's probably all three. And so I don't know the best way to do this, but what I think is that you go to a central kinda landing spot, a central sort of website.
Nick Clason (07:34):
And then you say from there students, parents leaders with like a button for each, or like a page for each or a link for each or whatever. Right. Um, and each of those have a different reason, a different purpose, right? So, um, students, I, I think you wanna link upcoming events. You may wanna have sign up calendars. Um, but also, and this is the thing I'm really, really trying to double down on. And this is the whole reason for me personally, why I'm so passionate about hybrid ministry is I want digital discipleship tools. I don't know where you land on it. As far as your definition of discipleship. I believe that discipleship has a life on life component. If you look at Jesus and the way that he modeled life with his disciples, he literally lived with them. They came and see, they checked it out and then they come and they followed him and then he started giving them more and more assignments.
Nick Clason (08:32):
And then until eventually ultimately he left all of the next steps of the church in their hands, all of that done life on life. And I think that there should be a life on life component. I think there should be a physical non-digital in person meeting. Right. And that's why this whole thing, right? We're not talking about it being physical versus digital. We're talking about hybrid. How do both of these two things marry? Why? Because, um, while I would love to be a youth pastor that when people look at me, they say, I see Jesus in you. And I model my life in my ministry after Jesus. I also, um, cannot spend the same amount of time with the people I am attempting to disciple the same way that Jesus did. I mean, I guess I could. Right. But that would require me to, um, sell all my possessions, be homeless and wander around from place to place.
Nick Clason (09:29):
And while that may sound noble and amazing to some of you out there and you're like, yeah, did you should totally do that. I have a wife and kids and I just, you know, our American system doesn't really lend itself that well to it. And I'm not trying to be facetious here, honestly, I'm just saying it, there are constraints, um, that I have placed on my own life. Right. But also constraints within the American working system and whatnot. And so I love the idea of digital resources because it allows there to be other pieces, elements of content that can take place in the gaps, in the margins, in between our, in person meetings. Right. So, uh, right now, like I said, we have an Instagram, so that's posting on the fee. That's also posting on reels, as we've said, a billion times on this podcast, short form, video content as king.
Nick Clason (10:21):
And so we want to continue to double down on that. I want to continue to double down on that as a part of my proposal. And as a part of us building this thing from the ground up, I also wanna explore the idea of a daily video slash audio podcast. Did I say daily? I didn't mean daily, but a video audio, um, podcast, perhaps some daily devotionals, those could live on YouTube. Um, they could also just go short form on TikTok. And I also love the idea of blog style articles or some written devotional type content. That's either custom or that is curated. And so those are some elements. And in all of that as a youth pastor, I have to think what about the sixth grader? What about the seventh grader? What about the eighth grader? Um, that their parents won't allow them to have a phone.
Nick Clason (11:16):
And so I want all this stuff to be able to live on a website so that they can go there and there's pulled content from our YouTube channel. They can click, they can go to YouTube. They don't need a phone. They don't need YouTube account to watch it. Same with TikTok. I actually like the TikTok sharing link algorithm pretty well, cuz you don't unlike Instagram. Um, it's much easier to interface with it without an account. Of course it's easier with it. It always is. They try to make it that way. Right. Um, and same with the video or audio podcast probably hosted on YouTube or whatever and whatnot, all of those to be digital type discipleship tools that entire framework's not built out. Right. But I want to create a central student hub where people can go to students specifically can go to and be both a informed about what's going on times, whatever, what, not calendar events, but also, um, grab some things that can help them grow in their faith and help them grow closer to Jesus.
Nick Clason (12:18):
Then we want a parent hub and um, same thing, upcoming calendar events, signups links out to social media, perhaps a parent specific only Facebook group. I think that Facebook is used best in that format in ministry, um, for group type settings. And um, you know, so like parents are probably some of the, the most active users on it. I don't think we should neglect Facebook altogether, but I don't think it's super prevalent and relevant for students. And then same thing for them. I wanna also offer parent discipleship type tools, maybe a parent podcast, maybe some parent based articles and then some curated materials links out to other things, materials, whatever, whatnot. Um, and then finally leaders, um, a leader hub as well. So calendar of events, um, lessons, small group materials, videos of the upcoming lessons, if they're prerecorded or anything like that. Um, leader resources links to Facebook groups or group MES, um, applications to serve.
Nick Clason (13:27):
Uh, and then also some leader growth slash discipleship type tools, podcast, article, curative materials, right? And so what we wanna try and create is a place where like everyone at any time knows exactly where to go to such and such website. And they always go there, students go there, parents go there leaders go there. And then from there, it's clear if you're a student, you dive down this path. If you're a parent, you dive down this path and if you're a leader, you dive down this path. In my experience as a youth pastor, I've looked around, there are not a ton of amazing youth ministry websites out there. And I think part of the problem is because there are multiple intended audiences. Is it for students or is it for parents or is it for leaders? And I think in a lot of cases, and this is a super basic and easy marketing premise, right?
Nick Clason (14:18):
But the, the bottom line, the reality of it is, is that you gotta know who your audience is. And a lot of times, I don't know that that's all the way defined. So who is your audience? Figure that out and Noah, and in this case, we're realizing that there are three audiences that we really care about and that we want to aim and that we want to hit and that we want to create custom content for all three of them either create it or curate it, which means find other things out there on the internet to help kinda resource that. And then from there, if everything is built onto a website and if the website is ruthlessly updated, I think a lot of times too, youth pastors or churches think of their website as their last stop, as opposed to their first. So if the website remains ruthlessly updated, then you can just do a weekly, plain text, email scheduled from a person, pastor Craig, pastor, John, Andrew, whatever the names are.
Nick Clason (15:21):
Right. Um, historically I've heard that the best times to send an email is Tuesday at 9:00 AM. I dunno if that's still true, it's something I've been doing for 10 years now. Um, and then I think that, uh, you can pay attention to subscribers and open rates and click throughs through a thing like MailChimp or, um, maybe your church management software offers that ability. The last thing, um, that you know, is just interesting is, um, one of the things we're, we're debating right now and I'll let you know, kind of where we land is, do we keep the name students or do we switch over to using youth for search engine optimization purposes? What, what Matt has found and, you know, Matt used to be a marketer for dare to share. And so he found that overseas students was used a lot more frequently in America.
Nick Clason (16:12):
Youth ministry is the preferred term, especially on, um, Google and stuff. And actually he was showing that if you look up the word students, um, oftentimes it's in relation to college, collegiate ministry, stuff like that. And so, uh, that was just a super interesting thing. And so again, as we're building from the ground up, we're having these conversations, we, my boss and I, we both like the word youth, um, you know, can we get, can we get the church on board for it? Um, what's the branding implications, all those types of things, but that's another conversation that we're having with our, uh, communications people. So there you have it, there is my hub style website proposal for church. I'll let you know how it goes, bringing you a long lifetime for it again. Thanks for being here. Hey, hybridministry.xyz is your one stop shop for everything that we have to offer. Um, again, like I said, in our last episode, we're looking to continue to create more and more resources for you. Look for those coming here in the next month or so as Matt and I both kind of get our feet under us about what's next and where we're headed. Um, look forward to having him back on the pod at some point, but until then, stuck with me, glad to be with you. Um, and we will talk again later. Thanks guys. Check you out on the flippty flip
18 min
September 22, 2022Episode 010: Common Myths about Generation Z and how to Reach them in 2022
In this short solo episode, Nick unpacks a HubSpot.com article about common Generation Z myths in marketing and he relates those to and draws parrallels to what he sees happening in the church. How can we adjust some of our approach, what we do, and how we attempt to evangelize and disciple teenagers, and the future attenders of our churchs.
SHOWNOTES
https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/gen-z-myths?utm_campaign=Marketing%20Blog%20-%20Daily%20Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_content=223400490&utm_source=hs_email
TIMECODES
00:00-00:35 Myths about Generation Z
00:35-3:34 Why do we keep focusing on Gen Z?
3:34-6:04 Myth 1: Gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion
6:04-8:22 Myth 2: Data and Privacy are irrelevant to Gen Z
8:22-10:43 Myth 3: TikTok is the best place to reach Gen Z
10:43-14:51 Myth 4: Put a product in front of Gen Z and they will buy it
14:51-17:15 Outro
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What's up everybody and welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast, solo pod this morning. Uh, I mentioned several weeks back, uh, that I had just given notice to my church. Um, and so I'm kind of in a little bit of a transition. And so I'm from church and Chicago to a church in, uh, Dallas, Texas. And so got weird travel schedule going on. So me and Matt's, uh, schedule is having a hard time lining up. So, uh, today I just wanted to chat through just a quick couple of generation Z. Um, miss, uh, and the first thing I wanted to do with that is, uh, I pulled this article from a HubSpot article. I'll link it in the show notes, super interesting. And obviously HubSpot is not a Christian company. And so they're focused more on marketing than they are, you know, like on the church or whatever.
Nick Clason (00:53):
Uh, but what I wanted to say was I wanted to say, why, why do we keep honing in on gen Z? Um, I think, uh, I've just had like a, I don't know, a realization over the last little bit that like churches are, um, built, I think for, for older generations, you know, they're, they're, they're doing it the way, um, it's always been done. Um, and I think that there is probably a rethink that needs to take place. And I think that when you say that to, to maybe some older generations, gen X, um, boomer, there's just an immediate knee jerk of like, you know, you can't get rid of this, you can't get rid of that. Maybe the Sunday morning se sermon, um, the way we dress, the way we do things like, and I get that, right. There's a, there's a safety and a comfort in, um, just the traditions and the habits that have been built.
Nick Clason (01:47):
But I think gen Z is actually a really interesting case study because, and the reason I think it's important is because I don't know that the church is being super, um, relevant to reach them. I think that the church is doing things the way it's always been done. I think you look across the landscape of, uh, church leadership. The majority of church leaders are older in their forties, fifties, some even in their sixties. Um, and you know, like you, you hate to like categorize anybody, but they may just be kinda like hanging on until retirement. And so are they really looking to innovate? Are they really looking to reach and like, sure they're looking to reach, um, but maybe they're trying to do so in such a way that is done, um, reaching people the way that, that, that they're used to reaching it and the type of model that they're built. And so the reason we keep honing in, at least I keep honing in on gen Z. First of all, like I've said before, I am a youth pastor. So that is, you know, immediately in my kinda like purview. But the second thing is I think the church needs to adapt, not because to try and reach a specific generation, but because them millennials as well and all the generations that are gonna
Nick Clason (02:58):
Come after gen Z are gonna be different. So how can the church, which is in my personal and theological opinion, the most relevant institution in the world, it is the one that has stood the test of time. And so this isn't me coming in and just like slinging mud at the church. It's me, um, caring deeply about the church and how do we help take it to what could be the next level. And so, um, just one this article, like I said, okay, so we're gonna kind of dive into this article, um, is five, five gen Z myths debunked. Um, and so the first one, it says gen Z is obsessed with fast fashion. All right. So obviously as a church, we don't give a ton of care to fashion or apparel or they're pur purchasing things. However, um, you know, I think that the, the, the thing that is interesting to pull kind of out of this point here is that they're saying that they're interested in fast fashion.
Nick Clason (03:56):
That is a myth. Um, and it's not just about what's cheapest because as I'm looking at a graph that they share question here says, does gen Z think companies should take a stance on social issues? Uh, 50% of gen Z say yes, where 26% say no, and then 24% say not sure. And I think that that piece right there is incredibly relevant for the church, because I think oftentimes as a church, we, uh, hold back our opinions because we're afraid, uh, to ostracize anybody. And I understand it and I get the notion of it. I get the importance of staying in the middle. Uh, but the people, especially the younger people that we're serving, they wanna know where we stand on things. They want us to take a stance. And that's difficult, I think, as a church because, you know, uh, gen Z tends to skew maybe a little bit more left and our church tends to skew maybe a little bit more, right.
Nick Clason (04:51):
If we're just speaking politically. And so how do you take a stance on what I think is most important is to take a stance the way that Jesus would take a stance. Uh, but that can be challenging, cuz that might go against either a, a gen Z type person or B, it might go against, uh, the rest of your church or their, their older framework. So how is the church? Do you have the courage to stand up and to take the stances that you need to take the, and the stances that matter to gen Z? Um, and I think perhaps the reason that we pull back on that as a church is because our church's stance coming from maybe a little more conservative position is gonna go against a little more liberal of a position of, uh, what gen Z you know, uh, typically cares about the final paragraph, right? Just to kind of highlight that the final paragraph of this, um, this first point says we, when we ask gen Zers who want companies to take a stance on which issues and which are most important to them, racial justice was by far the top at 69% followed by LGBTQ plus rights, 50% gender inequality, 46 and climate change,
Nick Clason (05:57):
So again, just to highlight the things that gen Z is saying is the most important thing for them. Uh, the second thing here, the second myth that is debunked is that data, privacy and security are irrelevant for gen Z. And so again, they're saying that that's a myth, right? Because you know, it says here this first paragraph, I get why many people believe this one gen Z's known for being glued to their phones, which obviously comes with the risk of unsecured and unrestricted data. Right? However, it actually is the kind of the opposite. So gen Z's looking for data security, they want that to matter. So as a church, as you're creating more, maybe hybrid opportunities online giving, um, collecting their data, how are you, um, how are you, uh, keeping track of their data and how are you ensuring that it's it's safe, right?
Nick Clason (06:47):
Uh, furthermore, it goes on to share graph and it says, uh, gen Z's more likely to purchase from brands that number one treat their employees. Well, that's at 84% that they can trust with their data as high as 83%, um, donate to a, a portion of their profits to charity 68% actively try to reduce the environmental impact. 60% are committed to diversity and inclusion. 53% and advocate for racial justice. 51% are small businesses. 46% advocate for gender equality. 42% are owned by a person of color. 39% are owned by a member of LGBTQ. Plus 38% are woman owned, 37% and advocate for LGBTQ rights, 37%. So as you can see, the purchase decisions are strongly influenced by whether or not they can trust a company with their data, second ranked highest, but also the care about the, the issues like the, the social issues. And they're looking for those things, they care about those things.
Nick Clason (07:42):
And so they're gonna trust and subsequently not trust institutions that, um, that care about the things that they care about and the church we're an institution, just, we are, we're a large institution. I know we're not really a family and it should be different. And once you get into a church, I think you typically find that in most churches, especially the ones that are healthy, um, but from an outsider, especially a gen Z outsider, looking in, they're gonna look at that institution and they're gonna have some pause. They're gonna be concerned, you know, about a couple of things. Um, and as a church, how do we, how do we best make a bridge towards them? Okay. The third myth to debunk and this, listen, this is something we've talked about in this podcast. A billion times, TikTok is the best way to reach gen Z. All right. So check out what this first paragraph here says. This is a TikTok is obviously a great space for gen Z. It offers a genuine feel to the content that no other app provides. The style is quite attractive for some of our shorter attention spans and busy schedules. And in fact, 10 TikTok is the app that gen Z uses most often, despite this surprisingly, or maybe not. It is not our favorite social media platform when
Nick Clason (08:54):
Asked gen Z of their favorite social media app, Instagram and YouTube easily took the cake with TikTok being placed as third. So Instagram was 27%. YouTube was 23%. TikTok was 14% Facebook, 11% Snapchat, 10%. So again, we've been talking about short form video content, and I, we still think that that is king and we also have never advocated against YouTube, um, and Instagram. And so, um, especially Instagram with the, with the big push that they have right now towards reals. And so TikTok, uh, obviously is short form video content. And I think TikTok has pushed other platforms to kind of invest in that and make that more of a priority. And so how can you do that? What can you be pushing towards in that way? Um, but also, uh, Matt said this a couple weeks ago, too. Um, he said, once you reach someone with, with a TikTok video, like, yeah, that's great.
Nick Clason (09:48):
And all, uh, but then like, what do you, um, how do you sell them? Like, what's the next step? What's the conversion that takes place? Cause talk's a lot more just about discovery. So you discover something, but like even when you follow people on TikTok, it doesn't necessarily show them. Cuz I think majority of people spend their time on their four up page. And so you may gain a bunch of followers on TikTok, but are you showing up regularly in other people's algorithms and then thus right as a marketer, how then do you, uh, convert that into something that's actually meaningful into getting their information as a church? Um, if you're a marketer into getting their information so that you can sell them something that's a much, a much tougher sell, especially on something like TikTok. And so it's actually beneficial and advantageous to us that that Instagram and YouTube are still higher, that we can still invest in those platforms just as, as equally.
Nick Clason (10:43):
All right. The fourth myth here put a product in front of gen Z and they will buy it. So it says even though they gravitate towards TikTok style content doesn't mean they're receptive to just any form of short form video. Um, subsequently it says how, you know, how does gen Z prefer to discover new products on social media? Uh, 41% says through short form video. So again, that underscores what we've been saying, 36 through ads or sponsored content 32 through a feed post 29 through social media shops where purchase app happens through a story post, uh, 25% and then through an influencer 25%. All right. And so basically they there's, they just, just prefer to discover things maybe through TikTok reels or other short form videos. Um, but they don't want to imposed on them. Right. And so, uh, it actually, it goes on to say here in a world where we often feel are made to feel powerless, we strongly value a sense of autonomy and agency help us feel empowered through your actions.
Nick Clason (11:45):
So think about that as a church, um, we're pushing something, um, we're not selling anything, right. Um, but, but there is a level of decision that needs to be made specifically with regards to Jesus and with regards to the gospel. So how do we put the agency back in the hands of the people that we're trying to reach? Um, and a message, right. John 14, six, I am the way the truth and the life, the the is a very exclusive article there. Um, meaning that Jesus is putting and positioning himself as the person of the foremost authority. He is the way to the father. So how do we communicate that message in a culture? Um, and to a generation that they don't wanna be told what to believe. They don't wanna be told what to do. They wanna make the decision for themselves. They wanna be given the options.
Nick Clason (12:37):
And then they want to look around, see what their friends are thinking, um, or come to those decisions. So how do we as a church position and posture ourselves to not make it all about us, but instead to make it about the students that we are reaching. Okay. Um, and then the fifth myth here, um, word of mouth is a great way to reach gen Z, right? And I know that this one might seem contradictory. Um, but gen Z is feeling stressed outta control, doomed, like the weight of the world lies on their shoulders. And so with all this marketing that comes at them, um, we've turned, uh, what we wanna do is we wanna, um, everybody wants to put and push. Um, everybody wants to put and push an agenda, right? But like what's, what's most important, I think is still the human to human connection.
Nick Clason (13:25):
And obviously here we are, right. We're a, a podcast talking about the way to do ministry in a hybrid way, but there's still something about that human to human connection. And they still care about what other people say. Right. I use a lawn care company based on a recommendation. I use a plumber based on a recommendation. I feel better about things based on a recommendation than, um, a bunch of things on Google. And if I don't have that right, I then will go to Google or go to Yelp and look at reviews. Okay. So, uh, this graph here under this, this myth here, what channels have gen Z discovered new products on in the past three months? So 57% through social media, 46% through YouTube ad 42% by searching the internet 36 in retail stores, 30 by word of mouth, 23 through ads on film, TV, uh, streaming 19 through television, and then 19 through ads on music streaming like Pandora, SoundCloud, Spotify.
Nick Clason (14:19):
So, uh, the marketing, what this is saying, right? The marketing into gen Z spaces is that they feel comfortable on social media. Um, and that's the places that they're looking. And so, you know, even like I was saying, word of mouth, it's still, it's still value. It's still important. Um, what if your word of mouth can also underscore and come alongside of some of your online things? What if it can come alongside of some of the ads that, that they're seeing, cuz that's where they're, they're discovering the, the majority of what they, um, are, are buying and what they're purchasing.
Nick Clason (14:51):
So, Hey, listen guys, again, appreciate you for being here. Uh, sorry for the, the format. Sorry. Matt's not on. Um, but uh, just, I read the article. I found it super interesting and thought, man, there's a lot of like implications for the church. Um, we are, we're moving into a different age and you know, I think that the church is, I mean, I don't think I know that the church, uh, will prevail. It always has. It always will. Um, but the generations behind it are less and less, um, interested in just, uh, buying into it, hook, line and sinker. And so how do we as churches, position, posture, ourselves to make, to make the most effective impact in the lives of generations, these students, because before we know it, they're gonna be the ones that are in their twenties and then thirties and forties, and they're gonna be the ones in our churches.
Nick Clason (15:41):
And so we can't just keep doing things the way that we've always been doing it. Digital is incredibly important to them and the lifestyle that they're living. So how do we, as a church also find ourselves into their lives through digital means through marketing, through advertising now because we're trying to market Jesus, but because we're trying to, to reach people who are far from him and who are spending their time on these types of platforms and in these types of spaces and are becoming more and more comfortable with it. And just because they're comfortable with it and we may be less and less comfortable or even frankly uncomfortable with it, uh, doesn't mean we shouldn't, uh, force ourselves to, to figure it out and learn it and work through it. So thank you guys again for hanging out. Give us a like a subscribe. I mean, we would love to hear from you, um, from a, a review, just pull, open your purple podcast app on your iPhone and leave us a five star review, um, and a rating that would be incredible.
Nick Clason (16:43):
We are online at [hybridministry.xyz](hybridministry.xyz) and on Twitter at hybrid ministry. Look forward to connecting with you there. Hey, listen, like I said, I am in the middle of a little bit of a transition once things get settled a little bit, um, look for quite a bit more resources information, um, uh, you know, downloadables freebie stuff that we're gonna be given away, uh, really looking forward to growing and expanding the community and our reach here on this podcast. So again, thanks for hanging with us and we will talk to you next time.
18 min
September 15, 2022 Episode 009: Step by Step Guide to Running a Successful Facebook Ad in 2022
In this episode Nick interviews Matt and asks him all there is to know about running and setting up a successful facebook ad in 2022. They also jump into discussing running a Google and TikTok ad. How to retarget and reach more people for the cause and ministry of Jesus in your churches!
SHOW NOTES
//VIDEO TUTORIALS ON RUNNING ADS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dymukpfbg4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGl8B_PO_Ow&t=106s
//ADDING YOUR FACEBOOK PIXEL TO YOUR WEBSITE
https://www.facebook.com/business/help/952192354843755?id=1205376682832142
TIMECODES
00:00-01:04 Introduction
01:04-03:09 The purpose of online advertising
03:09-06:39 TikTok and Google Ads
06:39-07:10 Step 1 - Set up a Business Account on Facebook
07:10-10:19 Step 2 - Gather Content and Determine Time Margin
10:19-10:51 Step 3 - Clarify your win
10:51-11:31 Step 4- Run the Ad
11:31-12:07 Step 5 - 3 Questions: Target, Budget, & Goal
12:07-15:46 Step 6 - Create your Audience (MOST IMPORTANT!!)
15:46-18:15 Step 7 - Time to get creative!
18:15-21:34 When to hit the eject button on a bad ad
21:34-22:43 What is next?
22:43-26:55 How to retarget warmer leads?
26:55-28:42 Go do it!
TRANSCRIPT
Nick Clason (00:01):
What's up everybody. Welcome to another episode of the hybrid ministry podcast. Your host this morning, Nick Clason, alongside the baby holding Matt Johnson. Good morning, Matt. Are you awake?
Matt Johnson (00:14):
Good morning. I am. Uh, I'm awake. I got the baby in my hands right now. She, uh, she's mom that I have a little bit break. Cause I heard her crying and I went, ran and grab her. So if you hear her, I'm sorry, but she has a pleasure. I hope, she won't cry. She's just gonna grunt a lot.
Nick Clason (00:31):
Just making grunty noises. And even if she does cry, I will do my best to fill the gap, but it's gonna be hard cuz I don't actually know what we're talking about today. This is all you so on, on today's episode, what I actually wanted to do is I wanted to talk to Matt about advertising, digital advertising. How do we do it? How do you set it up and maybe have him walk us through a little bit of what that process looks like. It can get a little bit tricky, a little bit confusing. So before anything like Matt, what are, what is the purpose of online advertising? Can you walk us through some of the examples or some of the reasons why you would even want to run an ad in the first place?
Matt Johnson (01:14):
Yeah, absolutely. So there, when it comes to like Facebook ads or ads in general, um, a lot of people say, oh, the purpose is to like, uh, tell you what my product is. Right? Um, so it's to bring awareness, but there is actually three main purposes for tra uh, your ads, which is awareness, consideration, and conversion. And we can really get into the differences of all those. But honestly, awareness is like, let's bring awareness for, um, you know, whatever we're trying to promote. So in this context would be your church consideration would be, you know, I'm trying to get people to like engage with us, maybe watch video, send traffic to our website, download an app, give us their email, that kinda thing. And then the conversion ad is like, Hey, I want you to buy this shirt or I want you to buy our, you know, maybe your vacation Bible school ticket or whatever that looks like. So those are gonna be a three main ads. And we're talking about ads, we'll talk about how each of those should play into each other and how this creates like this robust system for you.
Nick Clason (02:30):
Okay. So you would recommend doing an ad, like a, like a three tiered three prong, add one for awareness, one for consideration, one for conversion and have them all kind of like work together
Matt Johnson (02:43):
In a perfect marketing plan. Yes. But that's not necessarily what I'm gonna recommend for most people. Like we don't even do that at currently where we're at. So yeah. Um, uh, we mostly run awareness ads what we're trying to do, but then like, okay, we have our vacation Bible school coming up, so let's, you know, get our conversion up for that kinda stuff. But I can, we can go into like how we want those to play off of each other here in a second.
Nick Clason (03:09):
So, so today we're gonna focus particularly and specifically on Facebook. Um, I'm assuming, right?
Matt Johnson (03:17):
Yeah. We can talk a little bit about TikTok and Google, um, which are, those are probably gonna be your three main, you could also do LinkedIn, but most ad functionality is very slim to whatever we talk about. So Facebook is the easiest starting point for everyone here, Google you're, um, ads, which super easy, but that's how you see those Google ads. Like if you search something and it's the top thing, uh, like, oh, uh, for this SEO yeah. Functionality or on a YouTube ad, that's how you're gonna run those and then TikTok or, you know, just a normal ad, but they run almost exactly like a Facebook ad and LinkedIn ads are the same way. And I can know in the difference of like, why you'd wanna use one of those over the other two.
Nick Clason (04:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, I here's the thing, I know that there's been a couple different times where I've tried to run an ad. Um, mm-hmm and I'm pretty much an idiot. And you told me about six months ago to run a TikTok ad. So I did, so I started the TikTok ad account. I did all the things, I filmed the video and then I violated some community guideline that I didn't even know. I, I violated. And so they like blacklisted my video and then I was just stuck. And even when I asked you for help, you're like, well, I can't remember what you said, but like I think I reached out to 'em and they didn't answer me um,
Matt Johnson (04:45):
Yeah, it's usually step one is reaching out. Um, TikTok could have, my guess is TikTok is cuz it was a religious ad.
Nick Clason (04:55):
Mm yeah. And well, the point, my point in saying all that is like, I just, I felt so like over my head, like right. I was just waiting into like something I never really waited into. And so it just felt, uh, if it can feel really intimidating. And so yeah, I was hoping that kind of through this, um, we could look at just a step by step ad building framework. Um, but I wanted to start there because right. The idea, I think a lot of churches, if they're like, oh, we should run an ad. Why to get more people here. Right. Um, while that might be an option or a solution to what is about to happen. Um, I think that there needs to be a little bit more of a dynamic and a little bit more of a robust why, um, understanding that there are different avenues to it.
Nick Clason (05:46):
There are the three different, there's the awareness, there's a consideration and there's the conversion. And so the purpose of your ad is important. It's good to define that and know the reason why you're doing it and know mm-hmm, that running an ad and anything like digital marketing online is gonna take time. And so you may not have one week, a hundred people in your church and the next week a thousand people in your church, you're probably gonna have to build to that. And that's where like the, the purpose of ad running is that it, it slowly builds that that brand awareness and equity over time. Um, at least that sounds good to me. And so I'm just saying all that stuff. And so hopefully you agree. And if I said something I shouldn't, you'll just you'll tell me I'm wrong.
Matt Johnson (06:31):
Yeah. Yep. No, you're good. Keep going.
Nick Clason (06:33):
So let's talk about it then. That's all I got. So let's talk about it then let's, uh, dive in. If you are brand new, like you have a Facebook page, um, for your church, um, let's assume that that's the starting spot then. Where do you go?
Matt Johnson (06:50):
Yeah. So the thing is you gotta set up a business account on Facebook. So you go, if you type in business.facebook.com, you can set up your ads account and that's how you're gonna set up your ads account. But before anyone listening to this runs an ad, I want you to ask yourself two questions. How much content do I have and what is my margin of time? And the reason I say that is cuz when we start talking about ads and how to really do ads, well, you're gonna a lot of time and a lot. It's really just ad, which is what
Nick Clason (07:27):
Like a one single ad one campaign. Yeah,
Matt Johnson (07:30):
Yeah. Which our church used to do all the time. But our conversion numbers on that where we're like 14 for, or, you know, uh, $6 for a lead. If I'm on that's bad. If I'm, yeah. If I'm over $4 a lead, I feel like a failure. Um, cause it's a waste of money honestly. And like we got our ads now to 39 cents a lead, so wow. Uh, which, you know, like that's very rare that you hit that. And honestly, we got really lucky and it's all got in that, but like that's the, but it took a lot of time, a lot of new content, a lot of new strategy for that. So if you're just like, Hey, I just wanna run one ad kind of targeted here. I have this much money. My recommendation was to would to be just to boost some posts on Facebook, which you can do that directly in your post that you create. There's like the boost button. And it's just gonna send that out to all your current followers to the front of their page. And you put that same money there and you'll have a higher conversion on that right now. So let's just start with that caveat before we jump down this pipeline. But now let's say I have the time,
Nick Clason (08:34):
Let, stop you for a second. Let's say like, let's talk about types of content. Like what do you mean by that? What are we looking for? Types of content wise to crazy question you say, make sure you have some, what is it like, maybe someone's sitting here thinking like, I, I might have some, but it depends. I'm not, I'm not exactly sure.
Matt Johnson (08:52):
Okay. So that's, we, we can really dive into that, but I would say if you don't have three pieces of unique content, don't run an ad. So, okay. We are currently running awareness ads for our church and we have nine pieces of video going out right now,
Nick Clason (09:08):
All at the same time. So
Matt Johnson (09:09):
All at the same time and they're all targeting different things and they're all being way differently, which, uh, we can kind of get into the nitty gritty of some. I can get into the nitty gritty of that. It's like actually showing how to set up an ad. I'll recommend some like videos you can watch to actually walk through that. Um, but I really cause it's hard on a podcast for me to explain, okay, you go here, press the plus button. You're like, what the heck are we talking about right now? So, um, but yeah, so have some unique content. So like a big example of this is like when we were trying to sell lead the cause at dare to share, we'd run nine videos, nine graphics and uh, um, like actual like, you know, a color background with words on it and then just nine photos. So just normal photos. Wow. I mean, that's, I mean, that's a different way to like, that's a lot of content to get, you know, a lot of people to sign up and sell out those events, which would work. So play that. So like I would recommend get one video, one photo and one graphic and that's gonna really help you start to experiment with this.
Nick Clason (10:14):
Okay. All right. Great. So that's, that's some of the content examples then what mm-hmm
Matt Johnson (10:19):
okay. So you have your content, you need to know what you're trying to promote. Okay. So you're trying to get people to come to church. Are you trying to get people to download your ebook? Are you trying to get people to register for alpha? Are you trying to get people to, um, you know, buy a shirt own? Yeah. Clarify your win.
Matt Johnson (10:40):
You need to know that cuz that's gonna depict. If you do an awareness campaign, a consideration campaign or a conversion campaign, and that's something you gotta define before you even start building, you know, your ads. So what's just start with the brand awareness, like an awareness campaign. So I want people just to know about my church and let's just for this example, say our church is life, church, not the actual life church, but we're just some subsid area of a life church in the middle of no. Okay. So we want people to be aware of life church. All right. So I'm gonna set up an awareness campaign with brand awareness life, church, and then the goal of that ad. So you're gonna have to choose like, okay, what is, what, um, what is like my target? What is my budget? And then you're gonna go, what is the goal? So pick your budget. I always do a daily budget when I do an ad and I always recommend start out about $10 a day. Okay. And you turn it off when you're ready to turn it off. So you don't need to spin
Nick Clason (11:45):
So you can run it. You can run it in perpetuity. You're saying mm-hmm if you can just keep running it mm-hmm okay.
Matt Johnson (11:53):
I
Nick Clason (11:53):
$10 a day to throw at it.
Matt Johnson (11:55):
Yeah. And then we turn off our ads. Once the conversion goes below what I want it to. So okay. When the ROI starts out, weighing it. So you'll go through and your name, your ad you'll schedule it out. But the big, next step is creating your audience.
Matt Johnson (12:11):
This is the most important part of your ad. So before you run your ad, you need to decide who am I targeting here? So, all right. We are, let's say we are life. Church is located in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm gonna target Phoenix, Arizona then. So you start with, okay, we're gonna target get Phoenix, Arizona. You're gonna pick the age. You're gonna pick like, uh, so let's say, okay, we wanna this let's say we're promoting something that's for young adults. So we would probably choose 18 to, you know, 40 year olds to come to this event. So I would target them specifically and Phoenix, Arizona. And then you can start like looking up interest and behaviors for them. So this is something that's recently just changed in Facebook in the last couple of months is you used to be able to like, uh, type in, oh, okay.
Matt Johnson (13:04):
Bible study in there. You can find people that have, you know, liked Bible study or Christian or whatever. So you could type in religious stuff. Facebook doesn't allow that anymore. So you're gonna have to get creative. So this is how, what we started doing, um, at dare to share. And then currently here we started thinking, all right, who, what do our people like around here? So one thing we started tar targeting was like coffee lovers. Okay. Um, is we know youth pastors love coffee. Uh, we started targeting here. This is a really funny one. Nick. I don't know if you can do it now. I'd have to double check with the new update, but we targeted skinny jeans so we started, you know, targeting people that were, were skinny jeans. Um, and you just gotta find the things that their interest in the behaviors that they all have in common as you're running the ad. So let's say Phoenix. Okay. We wanna target people that like maybe, uh, I'm trying to think of like, if there's any personalities that they even let do anymore, like they've changed it a lot. Uh, like you used to be able to like target over, Hey, you liked Lee Stroble.
Matt Johnson (14:11):
So let's do Lee stro, but you know what I just thought of what might be. Oh,
Nick Clason (14:23):
I'm sorry. Hello, Eleanor. Welcome to the podcast. We should add her as a, a host.
Matt Johnson (14:30):
A host. Yeah. Yeah. She, I think she she's pooping right now. Oh, oh. What? The life? Um,
Nick Clason (14:36):
That happens to me sometimes.
Matt Johnson (14:37):
Anyway. know. Uh, so let's say, uh, you think of a TV show that your congregation has all talked about or whatever. Like you can look it up for that TV. So, um, so you can like, you know, do detail targeting on that. Um, great. And then you'll do like, okay, let's how are we gonna place it? I always do like how Facebook would place it, cuz Facebook's algorithm is gonna weigh how it thinks it should. Um, and then you'll go to your next step. So does that all make sense so far before we move on to what's next?
Nick Clason (15:13):
Yeah. Yep. Sound good. So you're segmenting down your audience. Okay. You're choosing them. You're getting nitty gritty specific about what they are.
Matt Johnson (15:22):
Yep. Yep, exactly.
Nick Clason (15:24):
And then, um, do you need to go change a diaper so that we so that she does, so that you're good with that? Or do or can you keep plowing through
Matt Johnson (15:33):
Yes, I will. I will go change the diaper real quick. Okay. And Nick, you do some filler
Nick Clason (15:40):
Great off, off, I'll be right back off. He goes off our, our podcast marketing expert goes all right, great. So after some technical difficulties, Matt, what comes next?
Matt Johnson (15:51):
Yeah. So, uh, the next thing after you get your audience, you decide everything you're gonna do your ads. So you start naming your ads and this is where you make all your content. You set up your ads as image videos, carousel, collections, cetera. Um, and this is really where I want you the listener to get creative here. Okay. So this is where a copy. So all the words you write are gonna be super important. Um, cause you can do five variations of everything you write. And I say, do five variations, cuz Facebook will choose like their algorithm, which one's converting the best. That will become your number one. But so you don't wanna just do one variation there cause you're not getting Facebook any time to like learn. And this is also where you'll add in your other ad sets. So you can start doing, uh, the other videos.
Matt Johnson (16:49):
You maybe have other photos, graphic, whatever that looks like. So, and then we create five pieces of copy, five titles for each and get fun here. Like this is really where you should be testing out. Uh, okay, what are people gonna search or think, or what's gonna hook with them. So, um, and it's funny when I do this because I'll get so many messages from people around the church, like, Hey, uh, why am I seeing this version? And I was like, well, it's clearly, that's what your likes have. Uh, you know what Facebook has thought that you liked the most. And clearly it worked cuz you're texting me about it. Yeah. And you know, the other hunt, 99 things that go out a week, you didn't notice at all. So like that's so, um, yeah. Have fun with emojis in there. Fun titles, be funny, serious vision casting, whatever that looks like for your church. This is the time that you can start to really do it.
Nick Clason (17:47):
Okay. So build out. But, but when you do that, when you launch it, try to do that with a variety of different types of content, do some video, some static, post some graphic posts and is what you're doing is you're just kind of sending all of them out to Facebook to see which one performs the highest or are you letting all of them run? And then let's just say, this is your first time. Like what is a terrible like conversion? Like when is it like, okay or what's I guess maybe not even a conversion, but what is the sound? The alarms like hit the Jack button, don't run this ad anymore. It's a waste of your time, a waste of your money. Um, and what, when should they, like, this is the thing. And now with that, you should start over because it's not going well.
Matt Johnson (18:31):
Yeah. So, uh, Facebook will do something called free Facebook learning. So I wanna be clear like once you like post an ad, it's gonna take a couple, it usually takes about a day or two before the will start running. So just be that don't freak out. Yeah. Don't freak out and also triple check all your copy and all that stuff. Cause if you change anything, it goes back into Facebook learning. So you're like, oh crap, I did this or whatever. It's gonna have to go back and learn again. Uh, when it comes to hitting a jet, uh, that's really on you of what your budget is and your like what your goals are. But like I said, if we're over $4 on a person for a conversion, I hit check on it.
Matt Johnson (19:12):
OK. Um, honestly it's usually if it's above $2 for us at our current church, just cause you know, money is, uh, something that you have to be cognitive of. So yeah. Um, if we're under $2 on our ad conversion, then great. Like we will, uh, keep writing that ad and I'll pour gas on it is what I tell the that's taking off. Let's put another, you know, 500 towards it until it starts to not as well. And then when it stops converting, well you can, let's the, title's try the copy let's even, or the colors, the background. And then you get to the point where it's like, okay, this ads run its course and you take that audience so you can take that cold list and the audience you learn from and advertise with, to them for something whatever's next for you.
Nick Clason (20:01):
Mm. Okay. So let's pretend like for you and, and us, we've been, we're running ads now for a while. Mm-hmm uh, is $2 something that like you build up to, or is that like a pretty standard practice? Like even if you're brand new, um, you wanna try and shoot to be under $2?
Matt Johnson (20:20):
Uh, I would say shoot for under $4 right now. Like everyone try to shoot
Nick Clason (20:28):
Four and then maybe as you, as you do more of this and as you become more familiar with it, you might, you might be able to whittle that down. You're saying
Matt Johnson (20:38):
Y yep. Yeah, definitely.
Nick Clason (20:40):
Okay. So, so the, the, the experience and the more familiarity and the more volume that you do with it, like will hopefully help, help drive that down. So I just wanna be clear that people are like that $2. That's your benchmark, but you've been doing this and yeah, you're pretty advanced on it. So it's, it's, you know, that's not a starting spot necessarily.
Matt Johnson (21:03):
No. I mean, there's sometimes that like this for this audience, you know, I keep it her $4 or $2, but like, let's say you have a 300, 500 product. If you're converting at $10 a person at that point, like the ROI outweighs it, you know? So it really depends on the product. Sure. But, um, if you're running free ads for awareness and just trying to get people to go to your website, if you're over $4, like don't get eject there, you know?
Nick Clason (21:34):
Okay. So you're just kinda watching the dashboard. Now you're watching the conversion rate. You're seeing which one is converting. What, if anything is next?
Matt Johnson (21:47):
Yeah. So that, uh, really will, um, come down to what your strategy is honestly. So, uh, right now we run a monthly awareness campaign at our church. Um, and what I do is like, we wanna just build up our audience on our Facebook ads. And as we're about to launch our summer ebook, we'll retarget, all those people that might have watched our awareness ad with the conversion ad or an engagement ad now. Um, OK. So it's a good way to like get in your pipeline. So I would recommend like, Hey, run ads for, you know, a couple months before Christmas, even, and then like target everyone for Christmas time or trunk or treat or whatever that looks like for you. Like you have some options there. Um, and also like, okay, go ahead. Do you,
Nick Clason (22:38):
Do you, uh, go back into like, say ad number one and everyone who's become an audience member of ad, number one, do you say target this ad to them? Or like, how does that work? And I get it, I'm sounding like, I don't know what I'm doing, cuz I don't. So
Matt Johnson (22:55):
When you're staying
Nick Clason (22:56):
Retarget, what do you do? How do you actually like go to those people?
Matt Johnson (23:00):
So it's really built off your Facebook pixel, um, which that's becoming a, you know, a little bit of a issue with new privacy laws, but you know, right, right now you can still kind of use it and it's retargeting people as you're creating your audience, you can like say target my Facebook pixel through this time or whatever, which should, if it's an awareness campaign and they're going to whatever you're trying to do. It's like if they're, if you are doing awareness campaign and the whole point was for them to go to your website, mm-hmm or to just click on your Facebook page, your Facebook pixel will read that if you put your Facebook pixel in your website, you have it. If you haven't, I'll give you, we'll put a resource in the show notes about how you can do that. Super easy takes 30 seconds to do.
Matt Johnson (23:45):
Um, you can retarget those people, uh, cuz they would be a warmer lead for you. So you're targeting people that have essentially seen your ad at that point. Um, another thing um, you can do is like target people that have watched a video for a certain length. So, uh, that's why videos are really good. And we did a lot of that at dare to share like, okay, this person watched the video, we wanna only target people. I've watched this video for 30 seconds. OK. So we've run ads that were like, um, you know, 15 minutes long cuz we wanted people to watch as much as they could. So we target 'em different and Netflix does this sometimes and it's kinda rare. I haven't seen it in a little bit, but they used to run ads of full episodes of a show. Wow. On YouTube. So before YouTube, a video would start on YouTube, you could watch a full episode of like an example right now it's really big as the scene man. So like maybe sand man's episode, one would pay, play as a full episode and then Netflix can just retarget you over and over. Cause you watch an hour of their content. So they know this person's hooked.
Nick Clason (24:53):
Yeah. that
Matt Johnson (24:54):
Gotta get subscribe. So you can do that too. So you can get really creative with this stuff.
Nick Clason (24:58):
Mm interesting. Okay. But so then that audience just kind of like builds in that Facebook, the business Facebook like add place and you're just saying, okay, uh, send this ad to someone who watched a video for longer than 30 seconds or send this ad to person who engaged with our ad at such and such level. And you're doing that for, you know, so if you run a bunch of awareness adds, what you're saying is you can do a bunch of awareness ads and then once you get to Christmas, once you get to VBS, once you get to like your big event that you're actually trying to then go from like a awareness to like a conversion, you can start to specifically target those people be because in marketing words, they're warmer, they've engaged with you longer or at least at some level through previous ads. Okay.
Matt Johnson (25:48):
Yep. So a good example of this is like right now we're running an awareness ad. My goal is not like conversion rate on anything yet. Like how much it cost. It's just how many results people are we getting like to play our ad a week. And our goal is about 10,000 a week and we're hitting about 10,000 people. Every seven days are looking at our ads. And now that we're about to launch our fall ebook, we're gonna just retarget all those people that might have, you know, done a through play on our stuff to download the fall ebook.
Nick Clason (26:18):
OK. OK.
Matt Johnson (26:19):
So they're
Nick Clason (26:20):
Interesting.
Matt Johnson (26:21):
We're building trust. So the, I whole idea of your ad is to build trust with them and not to go back to the days of like commercials where it's okay. I'm just trying to get you to buy this product or whatever. Right. Like build trust with your audience. So give them a reason to wanna keep seeing your stuff.
Nick Clason (26:38):
Yeah. Yeah. Well it's like what we were talking about right. At the beginning, right? Like this isn't going from a a hundred people to a thousand people. You're trying to like yeah. Be a good mentor show, show them that your church is trustworthy and all that type of stuff. So. Yep. All right. Great. Um, anything else? Like that's a, that's uh, how to get it going, how to get it set up all those types of things. My audio cut out in the middle for half of it. So you were just flying solo and you didn't even know no.
Matt Johnson (27:06):
What are we missing?
Nick Clason (27:09):
Changing diaper. We had a very productive morning. Yeah. What's the last little bit of thing that, that the people need to know anything.
Matt Johnson (27:17):
Um, like go set up some ads for $10 a day, try a week out or whatever. Um, just go test it, watch some videos we'll put so a bunch of stuff in the show notes for you. And I also wanna be clear, like ads are changing constantly. Just like everything else that we've talked about. Like, you know, this is this week, next week. This could all just drastically change. Cause you know, Facebook just decides, Hey, this is what we wanna do now. You know? Or Google decides, oh, we're not doing it that way anymore. We're not gonna weigh our, uh, our Google ads as high. We're gonna go back to YouTube ads being weighed higher. There's always, you never know. So just keep that in mind too. So I'll even put into some resources that you can check in. Like what's most updated stuff for ads. So, uh, love it. We'll have a lot of, lot of stuff. This is definitely more techy and more of the technical side of everything we talk about on here. It's not philosophical at all. Yeah. So anyone can do it. You just gotta have patience and go test it out.
Nick Clason (28:18):
Yep. Love it. All right guys. That's it for today then? Uh, like and subscribe, give us a, uh, rating. If you found this helpful, please share it with a friend hybrid ministry.xyz online at hybrid ministry on Twitter and we will catch you next time.
Matt Johnson (28:38):
Bye guys.
29 min

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Hybrid Ministry is complicated and hard. Or is it? How do pastors and youth pastors create a vibrant extension, not replacement, of what's already happening during their weekly church services? To…

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