Description

Will Tober is a Jesus follower, husband, and father whose faith shapes the way he works. His experience spans things like producing the documentary The Drop Box, board member at the Pregnancy Resource Center, and co-founder of 100 Companies That Care.

In this conversation, we get into how a random LA Times article led a college kid to South Korea to film a story that ended up changing his life, how that film planted a seed for everything he’s built since in the nonprofit world, and what it actually looks like to be a driven man trying to hold family, faith, career, and calling all at once.

Enjoy.

Lessons From Will

1. Draw Hard Lines Around What Matters Will is home by 5:30pm. Non-negotiable. He’s learned to maximize the hours he gives to work so he can be fully present for everything else. He acknowledges that in commercial real estate, more hours usually means more money — and he’s made peace with leaving something on the table. Faith makes that easier. The practical boundary is just the output of a deeper conviction about what actually matters. (10:08)

2. Community Isn’t About Having Answers — It’s About Not Being Alone One of the most honest moments in the conversation is when Will talks about how community doesn’t usually hand you solutions. It just reminds you that you’re not the only one who doesn’t have this figured out. We know rationally that parenting and marriage and career and faith have challenged every generation before us — and yet it still feels uniquely impossible when it’s yours. The right people around you don’t fix that. They just make it bearable enough to keep going. (13:56)

3. The Achiever’s Real Enemy Is Fear of Failure Will describes himself as someone who’s always had an achiever mentality — doing every sport, setting long-term goals earlier than most of his peers, carrying a sense of family legacy from grandparents who immigrated from Mexico and a dad who was the first in the family to go to college. But underneath all of it was a pretty intense fear of failure that prevented him from trying things where there was a real risk of not succeeding. He’s been working to break that his whole life. High ambition and deep fear of failure are not opposites — they often travel together. (19:18)

4. Less About What You’re Doing, More About Who You’re Becoming Will talks about work not primarily as a vehicle for income or even impact, but as a classroom. He’s passionate about commercial real estate, believes there’s good in it, and sees opportunities to build relationships and invest in the kingdom through it. But more than any of that, he believes a big piece of why God puts us in the work we’re in is to teach us things we couldn’t learn any other way. That framing changes everything about how you show up when the work is hard. (25:24)

5. Saying Yes Before You Know What It Costs Is the Whole Point When Brian pitched Will on flying to South Korea to make a documentary about a pastor who built a box to receive abandoned babies, Will had no film background and no idea what a producer even did. He said yes anyway. That yes eventually generated $10 million, led to a Netflix deal, and planted seeds for everything he’s built since in the nonprofit world. You don’t need to know what you’re doing. You just need to give your yes. (31:00)

6. God Redefines the Success Metrics The Drop Box got rejected by Sundance, Cannes, and every major film festival they submitted to. The only ones that accepted it were the Christian ones — which was ironic, because they’d set out to make something that would reach beyond the church. They ended up winning $150,000 at a San Antonio Christian film festival that doesn’t even exist anymore, which funded the rest of the film. Will says in its success, God was still refining them by stripping away all the cool factors. Sometimes the door you wanted to walk through isn’t the one that opens. (35:55)

7. The Real Impact Is Usually Hidden 100 Companies That Care has generated unexpected outcomes Will and his co-founder never planned for — nonprofits collaborating with each other, board members joining from the business community, volunteer events, and donations beyond what the format requires. One nonprofit donated their entire literacy curriculum to an orphanage they’d never heard of before meeting them at a quarterly meeting. Will says most of the results from saying yes to God are hidden — seeds you plant and never see sprout. You build anyway. (48:53)

8. On the Other Side of Every No Is a Yes Will’s not naturally good at saying no. But the reframe that’s helped him most is this: every no is a yes to something else. He’s not declining because he doesn’t believe in what he’s being asked to do — he’s saying yes to something that ranks higher. And in this season, that something is almost always family. That turns no from a refusal into a redirection. (52:35)

9. Fatherhood Is the Best Theology Class You’ll Ever Take Will says he lives his faith more than he could ever read it. Becoming a dad has given him a window into who God is that no amount of Bible study could fully open. When he’s frustrated with his son, he catches himself thinking about how God is equally patient with him. When he feels completely unequipped as a parent, he reminds himself that God is his son’s real Father. Fatherhood doesn’t just teach you about love — it teaches you what it feels like to be loved the way God loves you. (57:40)

10. Parenting Is the Biggest Obstacle and the Clearest Calling When asked what’s occupying the most headspace and keeping him up at night, Will doesn’t say business development or nonprofit growth. He says parenting. The tension between feeling utterly unequipped and desperately wanting to get it right. The fear of messing his kids up. The daily work of being comfortable in the uncomfortable. He’s not performing like he has it together — he’s just trying to show up and trust that presence counts for something. (58:36)

Description

Bruce Bartolomeo is an entrepreneur, husband, father, and grandfather who spent over 30 years building a construction company before stepping away to devote himself fully to mentorship and service. He serves on the board of The Barnabas Group and several other non profits

I loved getting to chat with Bruce and talk about the power of early mentorship, the cost of being more married to your business than your wife, the paradigm shift from owner to steward, and what it looks like to be an intentional father of daughters. I’m really excited to look at this conversation throughout the years and continue to glean from his wisdom. Enjoy!

Lessons from Bruce

1. You can be starving for a mentor without knowing it. (00:43) Bruce opens with a line that landed hard: “I didn’t even know I needed a mentor when I was your age. I think I was internally starving for one.” A lot of men are running hard and empty at the same time, proving something to no one in particular. Naming the hunger is the first step to doing something about it.

2. Grit is an asset and a liability — it depends on what you’re married to. (01:02) Bruce was so driven to succeed that he was, in his words, “more married to his business than his wife.” The grit that built the company also cost his family. He’s honest about the resentment it created and the healing that had to follow. High capacity without self-awareness is just high-speed damage.

3. When your identity shifts from achievement to Christ, everything changes. (01:58) The turning point for Bruce wasn’t a program or a sermon — it was understanding, at a deep level, that his identity was in Christ and not in what he did or what others associated with him. Until that settled, nothing else could. Identity is the foundation. Everything else is built on top of it.

4. The right kind of leader doesn’t drive people — they follow. (05:54) Bruce references the image of Middle Eastern shepherds, where sheep follow the shepherd rather than being driven. Leadership built on trust, shared mission, and genuine care creates followership you don’t have to force. People move with leaders they believe in. That’s not management. That’s discipleship.

5. Some of the most formative mentors teach by contrast. (07:10) Bruce learned how not to lead from a difficult boss early in his career. He made a promise to himself: if I ever have employees, I will never treat them this way. Negative models are still models. The question is whether we let bad experiences make us bitter or better.

6. Trust extended to you builds confidence that lasts decades. (14:16) At 14, a gas station owner handed Bruce the keys and told him to close the place. He’d only been working there a few months. That act of trust — unexpected, unearned, extended freely — built something in Bruce that shaped how he led people for the rest of his life. When someone older trusts you and you don’t betray it, it frames how life works.

7. The best mentors love you back into line. (19:44) Lou Spinelli, Bruce’s cousin’s husband and the man he spent summers with on the farm, never got harsh when Bruce was heading in the wrong direction. He would have “loved him back into line” — honest conversation, relational warmth, no withdrawal of affection. That kind of correction is more powerful than punishment because the relationship is the accountability.

8. Stewardship changes everything. (28:54) In a Convene meeting, something clicked for Bruce. He heard men talking about “my business, my business, my business” — and then realized: we’re not owners. We’re temporary stewards who have to give an account. When you hold your work that way, you’re responsible not just to yourself and your employees, but to the One who gave you every tool, every talent, every opportunity.

9. He doesn’t always call the equipped — and that’s intentional. (31:07) Bruce says he believes God intentionally does not call the equipped, because equipped people tend to rely on their own capacity. The call that comes to someone with nothing is the one where God gets to say, “Watch me.” That’s where the excitement is. That’s the tip of the spear.

10. Your career is what you’re paid for. Your calling is what you’re made for. (34:02) Bruce did Bob Shank’s Priority Living Master’s Program from 2003–2006, still running his business at the time. That three-year journey broke something open. The distinction between career and calling wasn’t just semantic — it fundamentally reoriented how he thought about the years ahead of him.

11. The fruit of fatherhood shows up later than you plant it. (39:02) Bruce’s daughter in Virginia calls him nearly every day. His grandkids sleep over once a week. His daughters are the same hospitable, community-building people he and Becky modeled for years. None of that happens without the seeds planted quietly over decades. Presence compounds.

12. What you allow, you encourage. (01:10:30) Asked about a lesson from his greatest failures, Bruce’s answer was this: what you allow, you encourage. In business, in parenting, in relationships — avoidance of necessary confrontation isn’t kindness. It’s permission. Addressing what needs to be addressed, respectfully and early, is one of the most loving things a leader can do.

13. Your daughters need a father, not another friend. (01:07:28) Bruce is clear: they have enough friends. They need a father. That means meeting the boys, having the garage talk, setting expectations high, and being willing to be the bad guy so she doesn’t have to fight that battle alone. The goal isn’t their approval. It’s their safety and formation.

14. Apologize on your knees. (01:02:15) When Bruce was too harsh with one of his daughters, he didn’t let it pass. He went to her room, got down to her level, looked her in the eye, and said: “I’m sorry. You didn’t deserve that. Will you forgive me?” That teaches children that trust can be restored — and it models the kind of humility and ownership that forms the next generation.

15. Check your wake. (01:20:18) Bruce closes with a metaphor from water skiing: the condition of your wake depends on how you’re driving the boat. When you interact with someone, what’s the condition of your wake? Did you leave them better for having been with you — or did you make the water rough for them? It’s a simple question worth asking after every significant interaction.

DescriptionToday I'm joined by one of my mentors, Russ Cline — pastor, family man, and entrepreneur who has started multiple global organizations and currently leads The Barnabas Group and Leader Mundial, a global leadership movement that's spent nearly 20 years training and coaching leaders across the world.We get into one of the biggest questions in my life right now: how to build a sustainable, fruitful career while also being a present father — two things that can feel like they're constantly pulling against each other. Incredibly thankful that he's poured into me so much. Love getting to do life alongside him.Lessons From Russ(5:37) Know what you're great at — and let the rest be good enough. Russ learned early that chasing his weaknesses just pulled his strengths down into mediocrity. The hardest part wasn't identifying his strengths. It was admitting where he was weakest, and getting his ego out of the way long enough to ask for help there instead of pretending he didn't need it.

(7:04) Exposure to a bigger world changes how small your own world looks. Moving to Ecuador at 11 gave Russ a posture he's carried his whole life — less critical of any one culture, more aware that no place has it all figured out. He later made the same choice for his own kids, moving the family back to Ecuador so they'd grow up understanding the world is bigger than Southern California.

(12:43) Someone has to call out the leader in you before you can see it yourself. Russ didn't set out to be a leader. A high school mentor named Randy, and later a college mentor named Guy, both pushed him into formal leadership roles he wouldn't have chosen on his own. The pattern: someone sees it, names it, and stays close enough to walk through it with you.

(17:48) The best mentorship gives freedom with an expectation attached. At 20, a mentor named Carolyn handed Russ a vehicle, a budget, and zero instructions for a summer of partnership-building in Mexico. The freedom wasn't a lack of expectation — it was trust. And because she trusted him, Russ held himself to a standard nobody had to enforce.

(20:00) Leader Mundial wasn't built because Russ had the answers. It started in 2007 with 13 leaders from seven or eight countries, paired with coaches from North America. Russ built the community because he wanted a seat at the table himself — and what he learned fast was that the coaches needed the leaders just as much as the leaders needed the coaches. Nobody in the room had it all figured out, including him.

(27:02) Leaders quit for one of two reasons: they don't know what to do, or they burn out. A mentor told Russ this decades ago, and he's watched it prove true in every community he's been part of since — including his own life. The fix isn't choosing one or the other to guard against. It's staying a learner and finding rhythm at the same time.

(30:00) Confidence is a strength right up until it becomes ego. Russ named confidence as the leadership trait most likely to flip into a liability. Knowing what you're capable of is essential — but the moment you think you can do it all, you've lost the thing that made you effective in the first place.

(31:42) Convergence is the moment your past stops feeling random. Russ uses a life-planning process built on two questions: how did I end up here, and where do I want to go. The light comes on when someone realizes something from their childhood is showing up directly in their work today — and that recognition changes how they see their whole story.

(35:54) The tension between career and family never resolves. You just learn to live inside it. This is the center of the conversation. Russ's advice wasn't a framework for balancing the two — it was permission to stop expecting the tension to disappear. "You can't sell out to one or the other. You have to live in the tension. And that tension will not go away."

(43:23) Looking back, the regret wasn't ambition — it was identity wrapped up in conquering new ground. Russ named travel and the pursuit of growing influence as the one thing he'd change. Not because the work wasn't valuable, but because some of it was driven by ego — by needing to be the guy who goes and conquers — rather than by what his family actually needed from him in that season.

(44:20) Wealth isn't what you think it is until you're old enough to measure it correctly. Russ doesn't measure his life in financial terms. He measures it in the depth of relationship with his kids, his grandkids, and his wife Gina — and by that measure, he says he's the wealthiest man you'll find. That reframe came with age, not before it.

(46:50) Chase the relationship, not the check. Bob Shank, a Barnabas co-founder, put it bluntly: if you treat donors like a personal checkbook, that's all you'll ever get from them. Russ has lived both sides of that mistake — taking the quick gift and missing the relationship that would have been worth far more.

(51:29) God doesn't show up in the balance. He shows up in the extremes. Russ used to teach balance as the goal. He's since landed somewhere different: life is a series of extremes, and trying to stay safely in the middle means missing what God actually has for you on the edges. The goal isn't to live there permanently — it's to find the edge, learn from it, and recenter.

(55:55) Joy multiplies when it's not about you. Watching his almost-four-year-old grandson at an art show. Watching a leader finally walk into what God made them for. Russ said it plainly: he used to think joy had to come from something he did. Now he knows he can experience joy just as fully through other people's breakthroughs — whether that's a grandson, a nonprofit leader, or someone in his coaching community.

Description

Katie Kelly is the founder and president of Through It All Foundation, a nonprofit that equips churches and individuals to walk alongside people grieving the loss of a loved one. At 27 years old, Katie's husband Ben was killed in a shark attack while surfing off the coast of California. What followed was one of the most profound journeys of grief, faith, and calling I've heard — and what emerged on the other side is an organization born not from ambition, but from obedience. I encourage you to lean into the wisdom she has to share around how to care for those who are grieving… a topic that our culture is not great at.

Lessons from Katie

(00:14:59) The vertical and horizontal gospel. Katie describes healing as having two dimensions — a vertical one (God meeting us directly) and a horizontal one (God meeting us through people). She’s found the horizontal to be the most tangible expression of God’s love in her darkest season.

(00:17:56) Ben’s lesson: don’t rush out of it. When Ben was going through something hard, he’d resist Katie’s urge to fix it and say, “God has something to teach me in this — why would I want to jump out too quick?” That posture of staying in the difficulty became foundational to who Katie is now.

(00:28:27) Grief comes in waves — forever. Katie no longer believes she’ll ever be finished grieving. The love for Ben didn’t stop, so why would the grief? What changes is your ability to carry it. The waves don’t disappear; you just learn to swim a little better.

(00:30:03) Validating emotion makes it smaller, not bigger. Before Ben died, Katie used to try to dampen people’s hard emotions, thinking validation would amplify them. She learned the opposite is true — when someone sits with you in your pain, the pain becomes more bearable, not more overwhelming.

(00:38:58) C.S. Lewis gave her permission to question. Reading A Grief Observed — and seeing a revered man of faith struggle openly with God — gave Katie the freedom to wrestle with her own faith without shame. She’s convinced that kind of honest lament is something the church desperately needs more of.

(00:41:14) “Can God be trusted?” is a different question than “Does God exist?” Katie could never say God didn’t exist — she’d seen him show up too clearly. But in years two and three, the harder question surfaced: do I want to serve you? That distinction is one of the most honest things I’ve heard someone say about faith after suffering.

(00:45:44) God is in the details — before you even know you need them. Two years before Through It All had a logo or a name, a coroner collected sea glass from the beach where Ben died and gave it to Katie. She had no idea what it would become. That kind of providence, she says, is what rebuilt her trust in God — small gifts she couldn’t explain away.

(00:57:58) God redeems terrible things — but He doesn’t cause them so we’ll have something to do. Katie was very clear on this distinction. She battled the fear that starting a nonprofit would feel like making Ben’s death useful. Her theology: God is in the business of redemption, not orchestrated tragedy.

(01:03:28) Bring your bucket — but don’t take theirs home. One of the most useful images from this conversation: everyone brings their own bucket into a hard conversation. It’s not your job to carry their bucket out with yours. A grieving person needs someone healthy walking beside them, not someone equally weighed down.

(01:08:04) Job’s friends were great — until they opened their mouths. The Jewish practice of sitting shiva — where no one speaks until the grieving person does — was exactly what Job needed. Katie believes the church has lost this practice of presence. The most loving thing you can do in the wake of loss is often just to be there, silent, without trying to make yourself more comfortable.

Description

Steven Lindenfelser is a graphic designer, musician, voracious reader, and father of two who joined me in his beautifully curated home studio — a space as eclectic and intentional as the man himself. We talked about the origins of his creativity, what it actually means to make something original, how fatherhood is forcing him to rediscover his own childhood, and why AI doesn't scare him at all. Steven also shared one of the most striking spiritual experiences I've ever heard.

Lessons

1. Your earliest creative memory matters more than you think. (00:38:38) Steven didn't have a tidy answer about when creativity started — until the question unlocked something: a dinosaur book he made in kindergarten. The pride and wonder he felt after finishing it became a kind of blueprint for what creativity would mean to him for the rest of his life. First memories of making something aren't small — they're seeds.

2. There's a difference between mimicry and original creativity. (00:44:01) Steven and Matt wrestled with what actually makes something "creative." The conversation landed on a meaningful distinction: mimicry is learning the language; original creativity is when you synthesize your influences into something distinctly yours. As Steven put it, we're all branching off the same creative tree — but the branch you grow is your own.

3. Creative process matters more than creative output. (00:55:40) Inspired by the artist CJ Hendry, who spends a week or more on each hyper-realistic colored pencil piece despite the existence of AI that could replicate it in seconds, Steven made the case that the process of creating is the point. The satisfaction doesn't live in the final product — it lives in the hours you put in to get there.

4. Your creative space is a physical map of your inner world. (00:03:55) Steven's studio — stacked with typography books, vintage records, car artifacts, and mid-century design objects — isn't just aesthetic. It's a curated environment built to sustain and prompt creative thought. He noted that even when he ends up on Pinterest anyway, the physical space holds a kind of backup energy he can reach for when he's really stuck.

5. Parenting is a second childhood — with all your baggage. (00:30:51) Both Matt and Steven reflected on how having young kids puts you back in the middle of the very emotional and developmental experiences you lived through yourself — except now you're carrying every lesson, wound, and habit from your own upbringing. The challenge is staying self-aware enough to give your kids something better without overcorrecting.

6. Structure and creativity aren't opposites — but the line is personal. (01:11:46) Steven's mom was a homeschool drill sergeant who pushed piano lessons hard. The result? He plays today. But his friend Levi got the same treatment with tennis — and now won't touch a racket. The takeaway isn't a formula. It's that fostering creativity in your kids requires knowing that specific kid — how much to push, how much to let them wander, and what they'll hold against you later.

7. Sometimes God shows up in the most unexpected vessels. (01:27:18) The most powerful moment of the conversation came at the end: Steven's sister has a seizure disorder that wipes her short-term memory. On two separate occasions, she woke from a seizure and — with complete clarity — looked at Steven and said, "Jesus loves you. He wants you to pursue your passions." Then she'd slip back into disorientation with zero recollection of what she'd said. It became the cornerstone of his faith. Some messages find their way through in ways that defy easy explanation.

Today I’m joined by Cassie Furnari, founder and president of Milele Home — a rescue and recovery home for homeless young men in Kenya. This is a Barnabas Q&A episode, so it’s a bit different in format: Cassie shared her story with a group of young leaders, and we got to hear some really great questions from the audience. What struck me most is how Cassie didn’t set out to start a nonprofit. She was wrapping up an internship in Kenya when she met twelve boys living on the streets, tried to hand them off to existing organizations, and was told no. So she did something about it herself. That accidental obedience, over fifteen years, has become something extraordinary.

If you want to learn more about Milele or Barnabas Group, links are in the show notes below.

Links:

* Cassie on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cassie-furnari-60b503102

* Milele Home: milelehome.org

* Barnabas Group OC: barnabasgroupoc.org

We discuss:

* The origin story of Milele and how Cassie stumbled into founding it (0:43)

* Growing up in a missions-minded family and how it shaped her heart (5:13)

* How Cassie protects herself from burnout leading a demanding nonprofit (5:59)

* Addressing root causes — why Milele works with families, not just the boys (8:40)

* The “Restore” step: physical, spiritual, and emotional rehabilitation on-site (11:55)

* Building and succession planning around key local leaders Joel and Margaret (13:29)

* A tour of the new campus: farm, chapel, courts, counseling center, and more (14:34)

* Her advice for young professionals wanting to get involved in grassroots work (16:35)

* The vision for Milele as a training hub — not just replication (19:14)

* The spiritual warfare Cassie felt the moment the campus opened (21:46)

10 lessons from my conversation with Cassie Furnari:

* (0:43) The best organizations are often built by accident. Cassie wasn’t trying to start a nonprofit. She was finishing an internship, met twelve boys on the streets, tried to hand them off to other organizations, and was told no. That gap — and her refusal to accept it — is where Milele began.

* (2:01) “I can’t leave without doing something” is a calling in disguise. That phrase is one of the most honest descriptions of vocation I’ve heard. Cassie didn’t have a vision statement or a five-year plan. She had a conviction she couldn’t ignore.

* (3:17) Locally-led is not just a strategy — it’s a value. From the beginning, Cassie wanted what she was building to be owned by Kenyans. She found Joel and Margaret — a pastor and a trained social worker — who became the true architects of Milele’s culture and impact. That humility has made the work sustainable.

* (5:13) The seeds of calling are planted early. Cassie grew up going to Mexico and Kenya with her family through their church. She didn’t manufacture her passion — it was cultivated in her over years of early exposure to global need. Pay attention to where your heart was opened young.

* (5:59) Burnout doesn’t announce itself — it accumulates. Cassie shared honestly that this last season has been the closest to burnout she’s felt. It took outside community — not just her own willpower — to recognize it and respond. The people around us often see what we can’t.

* (7:42) Empowering your team is the best anti-burnout strategy. Because Cassie trusts her team in Kenya, she can actually step away. Permission to rest only works if you’ve built people who are empowered to run without you.

* (9:50) Per one boy served, eight people in his family are impacted. That’s not a statistic — that’s a philosophy. Milele doesn’t just help boys get off the streets. They go into homes, work with mothers, run addiction recovery courses, and partner with local churches. The ripple effect is the point.

* (12:21) You can’t go straight from the streets into school. The “Restore” phase exists because there’s a gap — not in resources, but in readiness. Trauma-informed care, physical detox, discipleship, life skills: these create the bridge between where someone is and where they can go.

* (17:36) “Your vocation is where the world’s deepest need and your greatest gladness meet.” This quote from Cassie’s college days has stayed with her ever since — and it shows. The advice she gives young people isn’t about résumés or roles. It’s about finding where your specific fire meets a specific need.

* (21:46) Big breakthroughs invite spiritual opposition. After four years of planning, designing, and fundraising, the Milele campus finally opened. And almost immediately, Cassie said it felt like everything was coming against them. She framed it simply: “I don’t think we’re making the enemy happy right now.” There’s something worth sitting with in that.

About Cassie Furnari: Cassie Furnari is the founder and president of Milele Home, a rescue and recovery nonprofit serving homeless young men in Kenya. What started as an act of stubborn compassion at the end of a college internship has grown into a fully-staffed residential campus offering physical restoration, trauma-informed counseling, faith-based discipleship, vocational training, and family intervention. Cassie is also a member of the Barnabas Group OC’s Emerging Leaders cohort, where she continues to develop alongside other young leaders in ministry and business. She lives in Southern California with her husband and kids.

Description

Noah is a pastor, husband, father, and thoughtful friend who spends his mornings making espresso and being present with his daughter before the busyness of the day begins. We begin with a quote from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin about trusting the slow work of God, then discuss how deep thinking comes from reading the ancients, why Jesuits produce such contemplative writers, and Noah's love for early church fathers like Justin Martyr and C.S. Lewis. Noah shares his conviction that character development is the slowest work—looking back and realizing he wasn't nearly as mature as he thought—and opens up about a pivotal youth ministry season when everything seemed to be failing until one girl encountered God in a nearly empty room, teaching him that focusing only on outcomes makes you miss the beauty of the moment. We discuss the humility required to listen to those who've gone before us, why we don't grow alone, how reading ancient writers reveals we're rarely as novel as we think, and Noah's wrestling with atonement theories and the anxiety of wondering where the world is going as a father. I hope this conversation challenges you to trust the slow work of God in your character, read broadly and humbly from those who've come before, and remember that your small daily actions matter even when the problems feel too big to solve.

Lessons from Noah

Social pressure can be a tool for productivity. (4:40) When asked if social pressure motivates him, Noah responds immediately: “Thousand percent.” He loves coffee shops but has discovered libraries are the most underrated places—free, quiet, and full of social accountability. The presence of others working keeps him from falling into YouTube rabbit holes. Sometimes the constraint of knowing someone might see your screen is exactly what you need to stay focused. Productivity isn’t always about willpower—sometimes it’s about engineering the right environment.

Character development is the slowest work you’ll ever do. (19:03) Noah reflects on what he thought would be faster in life: “I think the slowest thing that’s taken a lot of work that I thought would be faster is my character.” At every stage—teenage years, young adult, mid-twenties, now approaching thirties—he thought he was farther along than he really was. “I underestimated the amount of work in discipline and honestly partnership with the Spirit of God to move me into a person replicating the kingdom of God.” Looking back, he sees he wasn’t nearly as patient, loving, or kind as he thought. Character is built slowly, and you only realize how much work remains with time.

Busyness is the Americanized metric for success—and it’s backwards. (20:54) Noah critiques the cultural reflex: when you ask someone how they’re doing, the answer is “busy.” Being busy has become a status symbol in Orange County—if you’re busy, you must be doing well. But the actual ideal? “Not doing anything. It’s like chilling and having so much money that you can just do whatever you want.” Both extremes are wrong. Somewhere between hustle culture and idle wealth is the real answer—work as gift, not curse or identity. The Genesis story shows Adam and Eve given work to tend the garden before the fall. Work isn’t evil, and it’s not everything. It’s something God designed us for.

Work your youth away, and your character won’t change on a dime. (23:22) Noah observes the modern trap: “I will work and it will be my identity. And it will be my everything. And then after I work my youth away, make enough money, and then in my old age, somehow my character is going to change on a dime.” He points to multi-billionaires who never retire despite having more money and power than they could ever want. There’s an illusion there—of success, of satisfaction. If you build your life around work now, retirement won’t magically fix you. The person you’re becoming in the grind is the person you’ll be at the end. Character doesn’t reset.

The days are long, the years are short—and parenting is a practice in patience. (25:45) Every parent knows the saying, but Noah unpacks what it actually means: “Parenting is a tension of patience in multiple ways. It’s the patience of being with your child as they’re throwing a tantrum while also being patient and knowing that you’re present with a child while having to do a hundred other things.” You can’t just drag your kids through life like luggage. They’re more like a garden—stationary, needing tending, requiring you to slow down and put down roots. People who moved around constantly as kids rarely speak of it positively. Deep-rooted, long-term stability matters for children.

When everything seems to be failing, you might be missing what God is actually doing. (36:47) Six to eight months into rebuilding a post-COVID youth ministry, Noah and his team were doing everything right—but the numbers kept shrinking. His coordinator said, “We’re doing everything right and it just seems to not be working.” That same week, the ministry was the smallest it had ever been. But that night, a girl and her dad showed up late, encountered God, and she found the friend she’d been praying for. Noah learned: “If I was only focused on the end, I would have missed that.” The 170 kids who eventually came took two years of grinding, gardening, and trusting God does the growth. But the real fruit was in the small, seemingly insignificant moments along the way.

You don’t grow alone—there’s no such thing as spiritual formation in isolation. (41:17) Youth ministry taught Noah a fundamental truth: “We do not grow alone. There’s no such thing as growing alone.” As a youth pastor, you realize you’re limited—you need leaders who take time out of their lives to pour into the next generation. Formation happens in community. The African proverb holds: “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” Noah rejects the myth of the self-made man. Somewhere along the way, someone helped you—whether it was someone cleaning bathrooms so you could focus elsewhere or a business partner investing alongside you. Both had equal benefit. Formation is done together.

Reading the ancients reveals you’re rarely as novel as you think. (51:26) Noah’s love for Jesus has made him curious about the church across thousands of years. What he’s found: “There’s very rarely something new under the sun that I’m thinking about, and that I’m not novel.” When he reads ancient writers, they critique him—and they’re dead, which makes it both hard and lovely. Americans think they’re progressive, pushing the timeline forward. But when you read history, you realize: “There are things that they did do wrong and have done wrong, and there are things that we are doing wrong currently, and things that they were actually more enlightened in than we are today.” Humility comes from reading people and realizing you’re not the smartest person who’s ever existed.

Humility means listening to those who’ve gone somewhere you haven’t. (31:11) Noah describes his current season: “I’m having to humble myself and learn humility well, and listen to those who have gone before me and to trust that they may actually have gone somewhere that I haven’t gone yet.” There’s something in him that doesn’t always want to listen to someone older—that’s pride. The work is stopping, considering, and taking correction or guidance from an older person who says, “Hey, I’ve been here a little bit longer than you. Press the brakes in your early career.” Not passive, always pouring back in—but humble enough to receive wisdom from those ahead on the path.

Children teach you humility—they have nothing to offer but dependence. (34:01) In Jesus’ time, children weren’t elevated like today—they were looked down on because they couldn’t offer society anything. But Jesus says we must come to Him like children. Noah sees it in his daughter: “She’ll stop and she’ll look at something and she’s like amused by it and she’s enjoying it and she’ll like so present.” The humility is stopping with her, sitting in the grass, not rushing her along. “There’s a humility to stop with her and just to sit in the grass and like yeah this is good.” Children model total dependence, openness, presence—exactly what Jesus calls us to.

The hard question: where is the world going as a dad? (56:50) Noah wrestles with an existential anxiety that’s intensified since becoming a father: “Where is the world going?” It’s a question that gives him anxiety, burning in the background all the time. He doesn’t have an answer to the future except this: “Jesus will return and Jesus will be victorious and all the things that I’m worrying about right now there will be a coming age of the kingdom of God.” How much control does he have over big tech, governments, wars—or even his own life? He has to run to Jesus multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a night lying in bed. The only anchor is trusting the one who holds the future.

* You’re not apathetic just because you can’t change everything. (1:00:39) Matt shares his struggle with indifference in the face of massive problems—if he can’t solve world-scale issues, why try? Noah pushes back: “You do have an ability to make change through your individual life.” There’s a desire in our culture—fueled by social media and overwhelming information—to become apathetic. “I can’t change, so why even try.” But there’s something deeply Christian about saying: “The kingdom of heaven is now. So I should take action. I should be moving as a father, as a brother, as a sister, as somebody in this world who needs to bring righteousness and justice into the world.” Even small individual action matters. Apathy isn’t faithfulness.

* Your small daily decisions shape where the world is going. (1:00:13) Matt connects the big question to the small one: “It’s all related to the same—where is the world going? Oh, it is going in the direction of the decisions that I make today about my family.” When he pulls the scope out, he realizes: if he wants to see change in the world, it starts with being the example of that change. We learn by the habits of people around us. If you want your kids to embody something, you have to live it. The Holy Spirit does the work, but your daily choices create the soil where growth happens. The world’s trajectory is shaped by millions of small, faithful decisions.

* Suffering can produce great beauty—but that doesn’t make the suffering good. (1:04:31) Noah reflects on Dietrich Bonhoeffer—would we have his books without the Nazis? It’s a hard question. History shows that sometimes suffering produces something profound. “Not to say by the way the genocide is good suffering—like no, evil, wrong—but in the midst of a great tragedy something can be made.” He’s careful to hold the tension: suffering isn’t good, but God can bring beauty out of it. “I have found and history tells that sometimes suffering produces a great thing and the benefit on the other end of it is beautiful.” The pruning is painful, but it produces fruit you wouldn’t have otherwise.

* His wedding day taught him to enjoy fleeting moments. (1:08:49) When asked about a top-of-the-world moment, Noah chooses his wedding day. What it taught him: “Enjoy the moment. Enjoy every moment of it because I would hear all the time it’s fleeting.” Now, years into marriage, he looks back at pictures trying to remember what it felt like. The sweetness of that day is gone in one sense—but the lesson remains. Pay attention. Be present. The moment won’t come back. And for the valley moments? “It will pass. You just have to walk through it. And probably will be painful, but it will pass.”

Description

Jake Hartson is a husband, father, veteran, and entrepreneur who recently transitioned into full-time ministry with Search Ministries, an organization that helps Christians and their friends give space to work through life’s biggest questions

He shares the tension of “mission first, people always”—a military value he watched fail in ministry contexts where mission became an excuse to forsake loving people well. He opens up about fatherhood as his greatest challenge, the question “what does love require?” that guides his parenting, and why he wants his kids to inherit his curiosity and his wife Kinsey’s empathy. We discuss navigating transitions by starting with why, the hard work of setting boundaries after the military handed them to him for years, and how he’s learning that submission in marriage starts with leading well, not demanding compliance.

Enjoy.

Lessons from Jake Hartson

“I’m willing to go, so why not me?” (9:18)

The military gave him the discipline his chaotic mind needed. (13:29)

Lead by influence when you can’t lead by authority. (14:17)

Collaboration builds better plans—and better teams. (16:36)

Training to think like the enemy makes you better at your mission. (21:16)

“Mission first, people always” only works if people actually come first. (27:48)

In most contexts, it should be “people first, mission always.” (31:05)

Fatherhood is his greatest challenge because there’s no playbook. (32:13)

“What does love require?” cuts through the complexity. (35:03)

The early years are more formational than we realize. (35:52)

Your parenting reveals itself in your kids—but you can’t always tell what’s you and what’s them. (37:12)

The goal is a relationship that lasts beyond childhood. (38:48)

Eye contact is the most important thing you can give young kids. (42:44)

He wants his kids to have his curiosity and Kinsey’s empathy. (45:17)

Start with why, then say no to everything else. (50:29)

Description

This is a Q&A session following the main conversation with Hyatt and Anne Moore. The group asks questions about marriage, art, finding God in everyday life, managing creative pursuits alongside other responsibilities, and Anne’s role as a creative partner. Hyatt shares stories about God’s creativity and provision, including the miraculous job offer at Surfer Magazine that came on the same day he was fasting and praying about money. Anne opens up about adaptability as her core strength and her role in supporting Hyatt’s work while pursuing her own art.

Questions Asked and Summary of Responses

1. Tell us about marriage. (1:11)

Hyatt shares that he got married on four days’ notice and it’s been 60 years—”the best thing I ever did” except for accepting the Lord. A job offer came across the country, and he had to decide immediately. He and Anne were best friends and lovers but hadn’t been talking about marriage. When he realized he was leaving, they decided to get married that week, and the next day they moved to Georgia. “Five children, great life. It’s not been all great for her, but it’s been all great for me.”

2. Can you identify one piece of art in this room that means something special to you and share about it? (2:58)

Hyatt says there isn’t one piece that stands out over others—”They’re like my children.” He mentions a few he likes: a wide painting of Africans being baptized going to Ethiopia for missions, and a worshiper on the wall that was a commission. His art shows diverse interests—dancers (because he likes figures in motion), flowers (because they’re “God’s color”), and abstract mixed with realism. He gave up trying to be “the artist of such and such” and just explores what interests him.

3. What’s the most interesting thing that the Lord has done with you or that you’ve learned about God? (5:04)

Hyatt shares the story of fasting and praying about money when he and Anne were barely making it financially. He went to the hills, got rained out, ended up at the old Surfer Magazine office, and was unexpectedly offered his old art director job back—part-time hours for a full-time salary. The publisher said, “What have you been asking for?” Hyatt said he was asking for money but not a job. God responded, “Well, how do you get money? Usually that’s where it comes from.” The lesson: “God became more open-minded and more creative than I was giving him credit for. I had him in my little religious [box]... God’s bigger than all that. And let him be that way in your life.”

4. How do you practically seek the Lord—like deciding to take a whole week to walk with God? (9:56)

Hyatt reflects that while he’s had powerful experiences, he wonders why he doesn’t have them every day—he gets busy with normal life. He thinks “the Lord enjoys what we would call normal life. We want the miracle; he says, you know, the miracles—your body, for example, it’s all working.” He compares it to Jesus healing the maimed—when they’re healed, they’re back to normal, which everyone else has been experiencing all along without thinking about it. “I think normal is pretty special. We just don’t remember it.”

As for finding God in special moments: “All of a sudden, we’ve got some stress. That’s when we’ll think, okay, I got it. Then we do it. We start zeroing in on them, and we find the answers one way or another.” He asks for wisdom constantly—even mid-sentence when writing or painting. “Creativity I’ve decided is nothing but problem solving.” Wisdom is promised, so when he asks and God says go ahead, it comes. “When he says seek God and you find it, he never says how to seek God. It’s more of an attitude.”

5. What do you think about pursuing creative endeavors when you don’t have time, when you’re bogged down with other things but have something on your heart you wish you had more time to be creative with? (14:25)

Anne responds: She gives herself permission for creative blocks of time only when everything else is taken care of. She tries to set things on a calendar—”OK, I can’t do it today, but if I can put it on a calendar, I’m going to do these days.” She encourages people to take a class where they’re forced to commit. She was impressed by a couple going into missions who determined each would have a hobby and permission to spend time developing it. “I struggle with that all the time. I try to get a block of art ready for a show and it’s hard to give myself permission to do it.”

Hyatt adds that twice a year they go away for at least two weeks to an uninterrupted art-making retreat—they drive, bring easels, paints, supplies, a press. “Absolutely love it.” But he acknowledges you can’t always do that in earlier life stages.

6. Anne, how do you manage someone like Hyatt who has such rampant creativity? How do you focus that energy, or work through all his different vast interests and projects? Are you collaborating or a sounding board? (17:28)

Anne shares that her main strength (from Clifton StrengthsFinder) is adaptability. “I can change my plans, so that’s a big part of it.” She’s always felt her role was to support Hyatt. Having her own art is harder for her to put at an equal level—not that their art is equal, but giving it equal value in her life. “Keeping things in order so he can work is a big part of my life, which I’m happy [about]—I am a servant. I love that, and he has given me an interesting life for sure.” She feels blessed with kids, grandkids, and all those things. “Art is one area for me, but it’s not my whole life.”

Hyatt adds: “It’s easier being a man. You women know what I’m talking about.”

Bonus mention: Hyatt shares he’s currently writing a book called Snippets: How to Get Anything Done—one-page pieces of wit and advice about the mind, where “the clutter is and the opposition is.” He writes a little bit every day, whatever comes to mind. It’ll end up being about 31 ways or something similar.

DescriptionHyatt Moore is an artist, former missions leader, and art director navigating the mystery of what it means to be faithful to your gifts. He's been married to Anne for over five decades and has lived three distinct careers—each one marked by surrender.

We begin with Hyatt's conversion in a cheap hotel room in Mexico, the moment he decided to become "a man of God" without knowing what that meant, and the terrifying week of walking in empty fields wrestling with what it would cost to dedicate his life to God. Hyatt shares the story of giving it all up—the Porsche, the sailboat, the creative career—to serve in missions in Guatemala, and how sitting in the print shop doing menial work became the test he had to pass.

We discuss the difference between chasing opportunities and following a calling, why your gifts are seeds that must be cultivated, and his conviction that "being faithful to your gift" is being faithful to God. We also explore his transition to becoming a painter and the moment God told him "I thought that was one of the good ones" when Hyatt said "it's only art." And Hyatt leaves us with the question he's wrestling with at 77: How do you build a big mansion in heaven?

I hope this conversation challenges you to die to your claim on an interesting life, run with the gifts you've been given without demeaning them, and trust that God gives back a hundredfold what you surrender to Him.Links- https://www.hyattmoore.com

- https://www.barnabasgroupoc.org

- https://mattheisler.substack.comTimestamps

(00:01:03) - Welcome and introduction of Hyatt Moore

(00:03:05) - Opening question about bringing Anne to the Surfer Magazine interview

(00:05:08) - "You hire a whole person, not just capabilities"

(00:06:17) - The story begins: Hyatt's path from technical illustrator to art director

(00:11:51) - Taking the risk to join Surfer Magazine

(00:14:12) - Transition to Mexico and the search for meaning

(00:15:24) - The emptiness despite having everything—Porsche, sailboat, great job

(00:16:56) - "Life's not as fun as it's supposed to be. How come?"

(00:18:27) - The book from his dad about prophecy

(00:19:26) - Reading in Mexico: "I wasn't happy-able"

(00:20:40) - Taking the invitation on the last page

(00:21:41) - The walk in Mazatlan: "This is the first right thing I've done in 10 years"

(00:23:13) - Deciding to become "a man of God" without knowing what it meant

(00:24:59) - The desire to serve God with his life

(00:25:32) - The terrifying week of walking in empty fields

(00:26:34) - "I'm afraid of what it'll cost me"

(00:27:10) - Giving up the claim to an interesting life

(00:28:07) - Saying yes with resolution, not joy

(00:28:48) - The missionary slides and discovering Wycliffe

(00:30:25) - Moving to Guatemala: the Porsche, boat, house went; the wife stayed

(00:31:07) - Menial work in the print shop: "I wonder if this is a test"

(00:31:50) - "My life in terms of interest is going like this"

(00:32:32) - The difference between chasing opportunities and following a calling

(00:34:09) - Being transferred back to the home office

(00:35:36) - What Hyatt wishes someone had named for him at our age

(00:35:49) - "Give yourself to God and then do what you want"

(00:37:22) - Gifts are seeds—water them, sun them, nurture them

(00:38:12) - The particular mix of talents makes you unique

(00:38:32) - "Don't overstress it too much"

(00:39:21) - "Just run with your talent. But do run with your talent."

(00:39:38) - Becoming a painter: wrestling with "it's only art"

(00:40:35) - God's response: "I thought that was one of the good ones"

(00:41:17) - "Don't demean it. Run with it."

(00:42:00) - Being faithful to your gift is being faithful to God

(00:42:28) - Matt's closing question: What question do you have for us?

(00:43:19) - The podcast about getting old at 77

(00:44:36) - What the podcast missed: what's next after this life

(00:45:33) - Degrees in heaven and less time to augment as you age

(00:46:40) - Hyatt's question: "How do you build a big mansion?"