Today on the show we’re talking about a woman you all have long known I admire — Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis. I have read every book I can get my hands on about this former First Lady, American (and, really, global) icon, and one of the most famous women to ever live. We have even had many episodes of the show about her in the past. But today we’re talking about the new book Our Jackie: Public Claims on a Private Life by Dr. Karen M. Dunak, which is out November 12, and instead of just looking at this remarkable woman’s life, we’re looking at this remarkable woman’s life through the lens of how she represented American womanhood more broadly. As Karen writes in the book, “Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis was a person, but she also served as a symbol of broader cultural expectations.” And what Karen found through her research here was totally fascinating. Jackie's designer Oleg Cassini called her “a powerful symbol for the United States,” and she held power as a public figure, both domestically and internationally. It goes without saying that American womanhood changed dramatically from 1960 and John F. Kennedy’s election to the presidency and 1994 and Jackie’s far too soon death. Jackie’s life is examined through her time as a campaign wife to First Lady to widow to a wife again after remarrying Aristotle Onassis to becoming a career woman and an icon. As Karen writes in the book of Jackie, “She often followed a path of her own choosing, enduring the ebbs and flows of assessments about her much as she did the transition from campaign wife to first lady and then beyond. Response to her may have reflected broader ideas about American womanhood. But she was just being herself.” This book specifically zooms in on media coverage of Jackie and how that framed her narrative, and I gobbled it up. Here on the show today we have the pleasure of hosting Dr. Karen M. Dunak, professor and Arthur G. and Eloise Barnes Cole Chair of American History in the Department of History at Muskingum University. Prior to Our Jackie, Karen was the author of As Long as We Both Shall Love: The White Wedding in Postwar America, and she is a contributor to Of the People: A History of the United States. Her research interests include post-World War II U.S. history, American women’s history, gender and sexuality, and social movements, and celebrity and media in U.S. history, and her work has appeared in many academic journals. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.

Our Jackie: Public Claims on a Private Life by Dr. Karen M. Dunak

What an episode we have for you today, listeners. Today on the show we have the phenomenal Terri Cole, whose work about boundaries I have so resonated with in the past. She has a new book out on October 15 called Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency, and it examines what we thought we knew about codependency. We have had the godmother of codependency, Melody Beattie, on the show, and Melody introduced the concept to the world. Now, in Too Much, Terri is taking the concept to the next level, introducing us to high-functioning codependency. In today’s conversation we define what high-functioning codependency, or HFC, is, what it looks like, some common behaviors exhibited by those who have it, and how those with HFC got to this place. You also might have heard this called “overfunctioning.” You’ll hear me say this many times throughout this episode, but I identify as a recovering HFC, and Terri writes that these behaviors are “highly programmed and largely unconscious.” Terri, too, is a recovering HFC, and writes in Too Much that “prioritizing the wants, needs, and outcomes of others over my own well-being was my default setting.” She talks about the moment she knew she couldn’t go on this way, and the book is a deeply personal one to her. We also talk about how we draw the line from being caring and a high-functioning codependent — and when we know, as the book’s title suggests, that it’s too much. By the way, when it comes to romantic relationships, codependents are attracted to narcissists, and the reverse is true, as well. The book talks about how we can prevent this deeply unhealthy combination. In our conversation today, we talk about the cost to a life if one doesn’t address their high-functioning codependency, and how the key to getting to the other side is boundaries. Now, Terri is an expert in boundaries; her book prior to Too Much, which I also highly recommend, is called Boundary Boss: The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and (Finally) Live Free. I do think it’s important to note that reversing high-functioning codependency is absolutely possible, but it isn’t a linear path or a straight line, and that those working through this should expect setbacks. You know what? People could probably live their whole lives with high-functioning codependency, but because of Terri’s book, they won’t want to, and they don’t have to. Terri Cole, MSW, LCSW, is a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert and has been doing this work for over 25 years. She is the host of a podcast I love, “The Terri Cole Show,” and inspires over 600,000 people weekly. She has a deep gift for making complex psychological concepts actionable and accessible so that clients achieve sustainable change. This conversation with Terri meant a lot to me, and I bet it will to you, too. Take a listen.

Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency by Terri Cole

Check out Terri’s HFC Toolkit at terricole.com/hfc and visit hfcbook.com/ for more information!

Today on the show we are talking about Victoria’s Secret, the retail giant that, as my guests Lauren Sherman and Chantal Fernandez write in their new book Selling Sexy: Victoria’s Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon, “defined a generation’s idea of sexy.” Selling Sexy is out October 8 and tells the story of a company that, at its peak, pulled in $8 billion in annual sales. We talk in today’s episode about Les Wexner, what Victoria’s Secret was like at its apex, its ubiquitous presence in malls, its revolutionizing of bras and underwear, its Angels, and its fashion show. We talk about how Victoria’s Secret fit into the business conversation (including a look into its business model), how Victoria’s Secret fit into the fashion conversation, and how Victoria’s Secret fit into womanhood and girlhood for a generation of women, including myself. We also talk about its downfall, from an American icon to where it is today. How is Victoria’s Secret doing today, you may ask? Well, you’ll have to listen to find out. Here to guide us through it all is Lauren Sherman, who hosts one of my favorite podcasts, “Fashion People.” Lauren has been reporting on the fashion industry for more than 15 years and is a special correspondent at Puck. Prior to that appointment, she was Business of Fashion’s chief correspondent, and before that a reporter at Forbes. You may have seen her work in The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Women’s Health, or The New York Times. Chantal Fernandez is a writer that covers fashion, retail, luxury, and beauty with a focus on business and culture. She is currently a features writer at New York Magazine’s The Cut, which I am completely obsessed with and read every day. She, like Lauren, is a Business of Fashion alum, where she was a former senior reporter. You may have read Chantal in The New York Times, Elle, Harper’s Bazaar, or The Financial Times, and these two women are just about as knowledgeable and impressive as it gets. I enjoyed this book and this conversation so much. Take a listen.

Selling Sexy: Victoria’s Secret and the Unraveling of an American Icon by Lauren Sherman and Chantal Fernandez

We have a legend on I’d Rather Be Reading today, friends. None other than Malcolm Gladwell is here to talk about his latest book, Revenge of the Tipping Point: Overstories, Superspreaders, and the Rise of Social Engineering, which is out October 1. Revenge of the Tipping Point comes nearly 25 years after Malcolm’s 2000 book The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference, a bestseller that took his career to the next level and ushered in a new genre of books. Today on the show we talk to Malcolm about what made him want to return to the concept of The Tipping Point and if there was unfinished business there; what a tipping point is, exactly; and how, as he writes in Revenge of the Tipping Point, “the very same tools we use to build a better world can also be used against us.” As he puts it, Revenge of the Tipping Point is a study of the underside of possibilities he explored a quarter century ago. We talk about social engineering, social epidemics, monocultures, overstories, his process, and how we can use tools necessary to control an epidemic to build a better world. So much here, and I’m excited to dig into all of it with you listeners today. Malcolm Gladwell is someone I’ve mentioned on the show before — I’ve read all of his books, and I’m a big fan. He is a journalist, author, and public speaker who has been a staff writer for The New Yorker since 1996. In addition to publishing seven New York Times bestselling books (and I have no doubt his latest, his eighth, will become a bestseller, too), he is a podcaster — his show “Revisionist History” is a must-listen. His work is in the realm of sociology and psychology, social sciences, and after the success of The Tipping Point in 2000, books like Blink, Outliers, What the Dog Saw, David and Goliath, Talking to Strangers, and The Bomber Mafia followed. His books are massive bestsellers, he’s one of the forefront thinkers of our time, and has even been named one of TIME’s 100 most influential people. Revenge of the Tipping Point marks Malcolm’s eighth book, and I’m thrilled to chat with him about it today. I also want to throw this in here for good measure — he has a cat named Biggie Smalls, so that’s absolutely amazing. Take a listen.

Revenge of the Tipping Point: Overstories, Superspreaders, and the Rise of Social Engineering by Malcolm Gladwell

We are back today with another fantastic episode, and for my 38th birthday today, I’d like to give you a gift — a conversation about a book that really touched me. We’re chatting today about Dr. Mary E. Anderson’s book The Happy High Achiever: 8 Essentials to Overcome Anxiety, Manage Stress, and Energize Yourself for Success—Without Losing Your Edge, which came out September 24. She writes that we are experiencing an epidemic of high achievers anxiety, which Mary explains in today’s episode. In the book, she writes “The bad news is that right now, you are likely not feeling your best. You may be overwhelmed and tired and frustrated by what feels like an insurmountable mountain of effort, and the truth is, if you continue on this track, you will burn out.” Sometimes achievement becomes a problem and becomes as much of an addictive behavior as maybe some of the more traditionally destructive behaviors. Mary writes of those with high achievers anxiety that they are “plagued with a feeling of inadequacy, no matter how high they soared” and I self-identify as one of these people. But Mary gives us hope, writing that “You can be happy and high achieving,” and that one can move from being an anxious high achiever to, as the book title alludes to, a happy high achiever. Today on the show we chat about Mary’s eight essentials to overcome anxiety, manage stress, and energize yourself for success, which are the roadmap to being a happy high achiever. We also talk about the “Troublesome Trifecta,” and what life as a happy high achiever looks like — and how, with this great book, we can get there. Here to guide us through it all is Dr. Mary E. Anderson, known affectionately as “Dr. A” by her clients, who is a licensed clinical psychologist and sought-after speaker with over a decade of experience helping patients become happier, healthier, and sustainably high achieving. I truly hope that you get as much out of this book and this conversation as I did. Take a listen!

The Happy High Achiever: 8 Essentials to Overcome Anxiety, Manage Stress, and Energize Yourself for Success—Without Losing Your Edge by Dr. Mary E. Anderson

I’m so pleased to have on the show today Megan Gorman, who wrote a very compelling book called All the Presidents’ Money: How the Men Who Governed America Governed Their Money, which is out September 24. Before we get into the book — which isn’t that such a great idea and such a great title? — let me tell you a little more about Megan: she is the founder and managing partner of Chequers Financial Management, a female-owned high-net-worth tax and financial planning firm. Her clientele ranges from entrepreneurs to corporate executives to inheritors of family wealth. She is an attorney by training and is passionate about the problem solving required to work in the world of complex financial planning. She has been named to Forbes’ list of America’s Top Women Wealth Advisors and was a vice president at Ayco, a Goldman Sachs company, and BNY Mellon Wealth Management prior to launching her own firm. Megan is a senior contributor at Forbes, where she writes about personal finance and income tax, and she is frequently cited across prominent financial media outlets, including The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and CNBC. She has now written the brilliant All the Presidents’ Money: How the Men Who Governed America Governed Their Money, where she dives deep into the personal finances of the presidents. As she writes, “most of their money problems are just like ours.” In the book, Megan teaches readers what president is the best at money (and he may surprise you!), and who is worst with money. Interestingly, Megan writes that, when it comes to solid financial advice, “if you ever asked me what is the best thing you could do financially, my answer would be quite succinct: get married and stay married.” We talk about First Ladies, too, and about financial advice for the presidents and for us; Megan writes about financial fragility and financial resilience, and how “In many of the presidents’ stories, financial fragility is a common theme.” We talk about what grit has to do with wealth, how the American dream is still there but much harder to attain in present times, and so much more. Studying the U.S. presidents and their personal money stories and how they built wealth — or didn’t — is incredibly fascinating. Take a listen.

All the Presidents’ Money: How the Men Who Governed America Governed Their Money by Megan Gorman

Celebrating the giants of American history — the George Washingtons, the Abraham Lincolns, the Martin Luther King Jrs — is important, but behind every larger-than-life American icon is, as Sharon McMahon calls her new book, The Small and the Mighty. The full title of Sharon’s book, which is out September 24, is The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movement, and all of these 12 unsung American heroes are extraordinary. As Sharon writes, “How many more Americans who changed the course of history are waiting to be discovered?” And in writing this book and telling the stories of these 12, I could tell with every page and Sharon’s poetic prose that she wanted to inspire the rest of us to do what we can in our corners of the world to make the world a better place, too. As she writes of the 12 she chose, “None of them could do it all, but they all could do something. These are the small and the mighty. And we can be too.” As she puts it, “It’s the small who truly are the mighty.” It’s interesting, because I find Sharon herself to be an unsung hero — although, as her profile rises and rises, she is very deservedly getting her flowers. Sharon has become known as “America’s Government Teacher” and is a podcaster, author, Instagram influencer, and law and government teacher. Sharon’s content on her podcast, Instagram, and other platforms mostly centers around civics and history-focused material, and she is particularly interested in combatting misinformation from both sides of the aisle and providing a nonpartisan explanation on the application of constitutional law to contemporary American politics. If you don’t already follow her work, you must. Sharon is a longtime high school law and government teacher and started publishing politics-oriented content to her Instagram during the pandemic back in 2020, mostly as a response to what she saw as rising misinformation on her own social media feeds amid not just the pandemic but also the presidential election that year. And there’s no better time to follow Sharon as we are once again in a presidential election year, just in case you weren’t aware. Kidding. Sharon then launched Government for Grownups, a workshop series about U.S. history and government, and is also deeply involved in philanthropy, as well, continually using her platform for good. Her podcast is called “Here’s Where It Gets Interesting,” and her Instagram is called “Sharon Says So.” She is a remarkable woman that I can’t wait for you to learn from today. Take a listen.

The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movement by Sharon McMahon

I am a huge sports fan, and both the college football season and the NFL season are in full swing. Sports-wise, this is one of my favorite times of the year, and our guest today Joe Posnanski has written a book for all lovers of the game called Why We Love Football: A History in 100 Moments that you definitely won’t want to miss. Joe chose 100 moments because of the 100 yards in a football field, and talks to us today about how on earth he chose just 100 moments out of the hundreds and even thousands he could have chosen. He talks about what anecdote was most fun to write about, a player and a play that epitomizes football to him, why football matters to society and culture, and yes, even Taylor Swift. We also brought up some of my childhood memories with the Kansas City Chiefs, and it left me feeling very nostalgic. The book is out September 17, and follows Joe’s books The Baseball 100 and also Why We Love Baseball: A History in 50 Moments. Joe talks about simultaneously loving both college and pro football, and how you can also love multiple sports, just like he loves football and baseball, which he writes in the book is like living a double life. Joe is a former senior columnist for Sports Illustrated and columnist for The Kansas City Star and currently writes for his personal blog JoeBlogs. He’s one of the most well-respected sportswriters in the game and has written a number of other books in addition to the three already mentioned. In both 2002 and 2005, Joe was named the best sports columnist in America by the Associated Press Sports Editors, and has won numerous other awards for his work, including Sports Emmy Awards in both 2014 and 2016 as part of NBC’s Olympics coverage. He hosts his own weekly podcast, “The PosCast,” and he’s just a great guy. Trust me—if you weren’t already excited about football season being back, you certainly will be after this chat and this book. Take a listen.

Why We Love Football: A History in 100 Moments by Joe Posnanski

My guest today truly needs no introduction. Ladies and gentlemen, we are fortunate enough today to have the one, the only Connie Chung here with us to chat about her memoir, Connie, out September 17. Definitely stick around for the surprise Maury Povich pop in midway through the conversation—Maury, of course, is Connie’s husband of 40 years. Where to even start with Connie Chung and what an inspiration she is to female journalists like me? Connie is the youngest of five sisters, and she writes in her memoir she was a kid “who had no voice at home, never uttered a peep at school, never raised a hand to answer a teacher’s question,” and morphed “into someone who was fearless, ambitious, driven, full of chutzpah and moxie, who spoke up to get what she wanted.” She writes that her family was shocked when she pursued a profession that required speaking in front of millions of viewers. Connie, of course, is a legendary broadcast journalist. She also writes, “the truth is, being a reporter fit perfectly with my personality. I preferred to observe, watching what unfolded before me, never expressing my opinion.” As the fifth daughter, Connie was very aware that her parents kept trying for a son. She then went on to break into a very male-dominated business at the time where the white man was the ideal. In fact, she writes in the book about striving to be like a white man early in her career. She was told at one point “you’ll never make it in this business,” but guess what? She did! And actually, her dream of working at CBS, as she writes, “came true because of timing, a connection, and who I was—a woman and a minority.” And that was all thanks to the Civil Rights Act President Lyndon Baines Johnson passed in 1964. Connie is a legend in the broadcast journalism space. She has worked for CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC—truly remarkable. When she joined Dan Rather as the co-anchor spot of the CBS Evening News, there had been 17 long years from the time Barbara Walters co-anchored a network evening news program to Connie taking over the co-anchor spot with Dan Rather. Through this appointment, Connie became the first woman to co-anchor the CBS Evening News and the first Asian to anchor any news program in the U.S. Though a mountaintop moment this certainly was, she writes “Still, the feeling of always having to prove myself weighed heavily on my mind.” She was let go from the CBS Evening News just two years later, and she writes “For two years, I had held what I’d thought was an equal seat at the table with three white men. But now I saw clearly that was never true. Losing all that was gut-wrenching, breaking my rock-solid confidence.” We talk about all of this and so much more in today’s episode, and I can’t wait for you to hear our conversation. Take a listen!

Connie: A Memoir by Connie Chung

If you are as big of a Selling Sunset fan as I am, then you are going to love today’s episode. Season eight of Netflix’s massive hit reality series just dropped September 6, and here today to chat about her new book Selling Sunshine: Surviving Teenage Motherhood, Thriving in Luxury Real Estate, and Embracing My Voice is one of the show’s stars, Mary Bonnet. Mary has written an incredibly vulnerable book that takes us inside her struggles, her pain, her heartache, but also her joy, her happiness, and her success. In the book and in our conversation today Mary talks about finding out she was pregnant at 15 with her son, Austin; her relationship with Jason Oppenheim of The Oppenheim Group (the real estate agency that is the basis of Selling Sunset and where Mary has worked since long before the Netflix camera crews came into the office); her successful real estate career; how she felt when she learned her real-life workplace would soon become the subject of a Netflix reality show; when she knew she was famous; her very handsome husband Romain; and so much more. Mary writes about the “obstacles behind the smile”—not just getting pregnant as a teenager but also Mary’s experience as a sexual assault survivor. In the book, which is out September 24, Mary writes “My life has hardly been a linear journey.” But she also writes, “2024 is going to be an epic year, I can feel it!” and I certainly hope that for her (and for all of us). This book is proof that there’s always more to someone’s story than meets the eye, and I’m excited for all of you to read it and get to know Mary a little better today. Mary was named one of Variety’s 40 Most Powerful Women on Reality TV and, outside of Selling Sunset, is vice president at the Oppenheim Group and a prominent figure in the world of luxury real estate in Los Angeles. She’s sold over $140 million in real estate to date and is one of the leading real estate agents in the city, and just a lovely person. Take a listen to our conversation.

Selling Sunshine: Surviving Teenage Motherhood, Thriving in Luxury Real Estate, and Embracing My Voice by Mary Bonnet