If You've Come This Far

Chris and Shaun sit down with Matt Davison, the CEO of NAMI Chicago, to explore the intersection of law, advocacy, and radical empathy. Matt shares his transition from serving as a public defender and civil litigator to leading one of the nation's most prominent mental health advocacy organizations. He discusses the limitations of our current "triage" approach to mental health and why we must move "upstream" to address systemic issues before they become crises.

Matt also opens up about his personal philosophy on "self-love" vs. "self-care," his concerns regarding the toxic impact of social media algorithms on youth, and the visceral moment on a Chicago Blue Line train that changed his perspective on systemic reform forever. This conversation is a pragmatic yet hopeful look at how we can build a more dignified system of care for all Chicagoans.

Key Takeaways:

• The "Hammer and Nail" Fallacy: Why the criminal justice system is fundamentally ill-equipped to handle healthcare crises.
• The Blue Line Inflection Point: A powerful story about why individual advocacy isn't enough to fix a broken system.
• Upstream Intervention: The necessity of investing in community resources to prevent the "triage mode" of emergency rooms and jails.
• Social Media as a Public Health Crisis: Comparing modern algorithms to the "Big Tobacco" moment and their impact on youth body image.
• Self-Love vs. Self-Care: A therapist’s distinction between occasional treats and the daily practice of checking in with yourself.

Resources Mentioned:

• NAMI Chicago: namichicago.org
• 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Dial 988 for immediate support

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, Chris and Shaun sit down with Andy Rotherham, co-founder of Bellwether Education Partners and a veteran of the Clinton White House. Andy has spent over 30 years at the intersection of education policy and social impact, but he’s also a music enthusiast, a Red Sox fan, a Boston bar investor, a podcaster himself, and a man willing to run a 5k in a full Easter Bunny costume to surprise his daughter.

We dive into the "no-fluff" reality of the American education system, discussing why school "averages" are often not helpful and how we can actually move the needle on equity. We also explore the "modern vice" landscape—from the gamification of sports betting to the pervasive influence of social media on youth.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The McCaskill Update: A shout-out to previous guest John McCaskill on his new book, Dialing Your Leadership .
• The History of a "Planned Community": Growing up in Reston, Virginia, and how its "hippie experiment" origins shaped Andy’s worldview .
• The Trillion-Dollar Industry: Why education spending is both too much and not enough, and the desperate need for honest performance audits .
• The "Omni Cause": The quantitative shift in how gambling, weed, and social media are impacting the next generation .
• A Personal "Why": Andy’s commitment to the Pan-Mass Challenge and raising funds for Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in memory of his fathers .
• Speed Round: Andy’s life mantra, "What’s the worst that can happen?"

Resources Mentioned:

• Bellwether Education Partners
• Eduwonk (Substack)
• Pan-Mass Challenge / Dana-Farber
• D.I.A.L. IN YOUR LEADERSHIP by John McCaskill

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

Chris and Shaun sit down with Katie Fogarty, a communications expert, "proud crusader" for women in midlife, and the host of the popular podcast A Certain Age. Katie discusses her journey from a religion major at Holy Cross and a teaching stint in a Japanese fishing village to becoming a leading voice in the "menopause zeitgeist." We explore the systemic gaps in women’s healthcare, the "beauty industrial complex," and why Katie believes that aging isn't about becoming invisible—it’s about becoming visible to the right people.

Key Takeaways:

• The Menopause Zeitgeist: Why the conversation around menopause is finally hitting the mainstream and why "bikini medicine" (focusing only on the pelvis) is failing women’s brain, heart, and bone health.
• Aging Out Loud: Katie’s philosophy on resisting the "anti-aging" narrative and why she refuses to allow advertisers on her show who suggest that aging is a condition to be "fixed."
• Curiosity as a Superpower: How partners and husbands can support the women in their lives by educating themselves on perimenopause rather than waiting for their partner to explain it.
• The "Invisibility" Myth: A reframe on midlife—arguing that 50+ is not a time of fading away, but a time of intentional reinvention and newfound relevancy.

Episode Highlights:

• [00:00] Intro: Shout out to our friend and previous guest Jason Ronai on his new role at the Basketball Museum of Illinois (plus a goat debate).
• [02:15] The Small World: We uncover multiple points of connection and discuss Katie's career journey.
• [14:30] Culturally Catholic: Katie discusses her upbringing, the "Spotlight" scandal, and how she and her husband navigated faith while raising three young adults.
• [23:00] The Birth of A Certain Age: The "aha moment" when a New York Times bestselling author and a Michelin-starred chef both admitted they were afraid to go public with being over 50.
• [28:15] The Medical Gap: The staggering statistics behind NIH funding for women's health and the importance of HRT as a foundation for mental health.
• [35:10] Advice for Men: How husbands can "pull their heads out of their butts" and become active participants in the conversation around hormonal health.
• [43:00] Voting with Your Wallet: Why Katie chooses to use reading glasses and color her hair while still rejecting the "anti-aging" industrial complex.
• [53:40] Parenting Truths: Advice for parents of 17-year-olds on finding what "lights you up" rather than just padding a resume.
• [58:20] The Speed Round: Sunblock regrets, the "this too shall pass" mantra, and what Katie hopes people say at her wake.

Connect with Katie Fogarty:

• Podcast: A Certain Age
• Instagram: @acertainagepod
• Company: The Reboot Group

Chris and Shaun sit down with Zach Gale, an elementary special education teacher and the founder of Me to We. Zach discusses his journey from a hyper-competitive sports family to finding his purpose in supporting students with behavioral needs. We explore the transition from "Me" to "We," the importance of routine for mental health, and why Zach believes your story can one day become someone else’s survival guide.

Key Takeaways:

• Behavior as Communication: A core pillar of Zach’s teaching philosophy—understanding that every action from a child (or adult) is an attempt to communicate an underlying need.
• The "Me to We" Shift: Inspired by Inky Johnson, Zach explains how attaching yourself to a purpose and mission makes you "dangerous" in the best way possible.
• The Savage Servant: Trading the idea of being a "nice guy" for being a "good man"—someone who stands their ground and holds core values while remaining a "warrior in a garden."
• The Power of Routine: Why waking up at 4:00 AM and investing in self-discipline is Zach's greatest form of self-love and mental health maintenance.

Episode Highlights:

• [00:00] Intro: Celebrating Angela Saini and the Daniel Radcliffe connection.
• [05:30] The Gale Household: Growing up with a father who coached for 23 years and the "Golden Year" retirement video.
• [13:45] The Pivot to Special Ed: How "Bartlett Baseball Buddies" changed Zach's career path just days before college.
• [19:20] Men in Education: The disparity of male teachers at the elementary level and the importance of male role models in schools.
• [25:10] Perspective in the Classroom: Having tough conversations with veteran teachers and putting personal biases aside for the students.
• [33:00] The Origins of Me to We: Starting with Zoom workouts during COVID and evolving into a formalized LLC and men's group.
• [40:15] Family & Addiction: Zach’s middle brother’s journey to sobriety and his role in the men's group today.
• [48:40] Imposter Syndrome & Social Media: The struggle for authenticity in a society that casts judgment.
• [55:20] Curiosity Over Judgment: How Ted Lasso and "perspective taking" drive connection in Zach’s workshops.
• [01:02:00] The Best Sports Movie Debate: Miracle vs. Facing the Giants (and the notable absence of Hoosiers).

Connect with Zach Gale:

• Organization: Me to We
• LinkedIn: Zach Gale

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, we sit down with author, activist, and education policy expert Justin Cohen to explore the evolving role of fatherhood in the 21st century. Justin shares his personal journey from growing up in a household steeped in education advocacy to launching Dads for All, a movement designed to engage fathers in both community building and "bite-sized" civic action. We dive into the "low bar" of current fatherhood expectations, the lack of dedicated "dad spaces" in the advocacy world, and how to build a movement that prioritizes authentic connection over corporate metrics. Finally, Justin reflects on the importance of "staying in the pocket" when tackling long-term social struggles.

Key Topics:

• The "Expert" Paradox: Why Shaun and Chris believe the most important conversations happen when "non-experts" stay curious and dive into deep issues.
• Education in the Water: Justin reflects on growing up with a special ed teacher mother and a global policy expert grandfather, and how their warnings shaped his career.
• The Dads for All Movement: Moving beyond the "nonprofit industrial complex" to build a movement that focuses on "belonging-adjacent activation."
• Bridging the Policy Gap: How to get dads involved in systemic issues like childcare affordability and paternity leave without making them feel like they’re joining a "mom space."
• Movement vs. Nonprofit: Justin explains why he pivoted away from raising money for a "job" to focus on building a sustainable base of engaged fathers.
• The 2030 Landscape: A look at how issues like AI-driven unemployment and the cost of childcare are the next frontiers for organized fatherhood.

Notable Quotes:

• "Men in my generation are doing 3x the childcare their dads did... but my statistician friend calls that a 'low bar easily cleared.'"
• "We’re not building a nonprofit; we’re building a movement. If this ends up looking like a nonprofit because that’s what I’m comfortable with, I will have failed."
• "Stay in the pocket. Once you get out of the pocket, you can’t get back in."

Resources Mentioned:

• Dads for All: https://dadsforall.com/
• Justin’s Book on School Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Change-Agents-Transforming-Schools-Ground/dp/1071875787

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify—it helps more people find these important conversations!

In this episode, we sit down with author and activist Jonathan Mooney to explore the myth of "normalcy." Jonathan shares his personal journey navigating the education system with ADHD and dyslexia and discusses the powerful influence of the people who championed his differences. We also delve into the dark history of eugenics and its lingering impact on society's perception of disability. Finally, Jonathan introduces the Divergent Impact Fund, a new initiative aimed at supporting neurodivergent innovators.

Key Topics:

• Redefining Normal: Why the concept of a "normal" person is a harmful abstraction and how we can move toward a more inclusive design for society.
• The Power of Support: Jonathan reflects on how his mother and a transformative third-grade teacher, Mr. R, helped him see his challenges as strengths.
• The Dark History of Eugenics: A look at the US Eugenics movement and its shocking influence on global policies, including those in Nazi Germany.
• The Divergent Impact Fund: Jonathan’s mission to support innovators solving real-world problems for the neurodivergent community.
• Parenting and Technology: Navigating the unique challenges of raising children in a hyper-connected, digital world.

Notable Quotes:

• "The only normal people are people you don't know very well."
• "Our design principle for our world should be the reality of human difference, not the myth of the normal human."

Resources Mentioned:

• Jonathan's website: https://www.jonathanmooney.com/
• Jonathan's books: Normal Sucks, The Short Bus, and Learning Outside the Lines.
• The Divergent Impact Fund: divergentimpactfund.com

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

Chris and Shaun welcome Sean Harvey, an advisor, consultant, author, and ordained interfaith minister. Sean has dedicated his life to helping men in hyper-masculine systems--ranging from Wall Street to police departments and the military--reconnect with their humanity. The trio discusses Sean's journey growing up as a gay man in Southwest Ohio, his transition from a high-stakes Wall Street consultant to an interfaith minister, and how to find common ground with those on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. Sean explains the "Masculinity Imprint" on our organizations and how the term "Warrior" can help men embrace compassion.

Notable Quotes

"Compassionate Warrior is an identity that you can claim. Warrior Compassion is an energy within that men, when they’re courageous enough, can access." — Sean Harvey

"I am never going to tell you what you should be as a man. I’m never going to tell you that you need to embrace healthy masculinity...I’m going to talk about some of the realities on the journey." — Sean Harvey

"When we humanize and give officers more capacity, it actually makes them stronger. It’s not about softening; it's about strengthening." — Sean Harvey

Resources Mentioned

• Sean’s Org and Book: Warrior Compassion: Unleashing the Healing Power of Men
• MenLiving Website: menliving.org
• Here’s the bluegrass song detailing the devastating 1974 tornado that struck Xenia, Ohio: Oh! What a Storm

Thanks to our sponsor, Mental. Mental is a wellness app built specifically for men, offering a sanctuary from "toxic positivity" and generic advice. It provides personalized, affordable, and science-backed support through real-life coaching designed to help you navigate life's messiest challenges. If you've been thinking about doing something for your mental health, visit https://app.getmental.com/subscribe to get started.

In this episode, Shaun and Chris interview Janice McCabe, a sociologist from Dartmouth College and author of "Making, Keeping, and Losing Friends." They discuss making friends in college, the importance of propinquity and homophily, tight knitters, compartmentalizers, and samplers, friendship markets, the Dunbar number, her recommendation for students, parents and colleges, men and women as friends, the importance of intention in making friends and more.

Get your copy of Janice's book here

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In this episode, the guys talk with acclaimed photographer, Stacy Waldman Bass, about her memoir, Lightkeeper. They explore Stacy's draw to photography, the value of stories and photos to keeping memories alive, the tragic accident that changed her life, what it's like to write a memoir, the therapeutic value of writing, the challenges of balancing grief and joy, and more.

Get your copy of Lightkeeper here

Check out Stacy's work here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF

In this episode, Chris and Shaun talk with Jim Maley, teacher and founder of the Maley Way. The guys discuss Jim's struggles with depression, his time as a Northwestern hoop player, enrolling at Holy Cross, screening selfishly, his mom's genius, his dad's brilliance, his wife's love, his role as a "depression agent," speaking to kids about mental health and more.

Learn more about Jim and the Maley Way here

Get Mental at 20% discount: http://getmental.com/IYCTF