In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues; Insights For Us All

In this timely and thought-provoking conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with somatic therapist, activist, author, and social change leader Staci Haines to explore the profound relationship between personal healing and collective transformation.

Drawing on more than three decades of work at the intersection of trauma recovery and social justice, Staci challenges the idea that trauma exists only within individuals. Instead, she invites us to consider how systems of oppression, violence, inequality, and disconnection shape both our nervous systems and our societies—and why healing must address both.

Together, Janina and Staci discuss what it means to pursue healing in a world that often feels unsafe, how trauma lives not only in events but in environments, and why resilience grows through connection, community, and shared purpose. They reflect on the emotional toll of living in turbulent times, the importance of finding beauty and “micro-joys” amid uncertainty, and the role of embodied healing in helping us stay engaged rather than overwhelmed.

From childhood trauma and social movements to climate anxiety, community care, and intergenerational hope, this conversation offers a powerful vision of healing that extends beyond the therapy room and into the broader world we are creating together.

Whether you're a clinician, activist, or someone trying to navigate these challenging times with greater courage and compassion, this episode offers inspiration, perspective, and a reminder that healing and social change are deeply connected.

• Trauma is not only about what happens to us—it is also about the environments and systems we live within
• Personal healing and social change are not separate endeavors
• Systems built on “power over” relationships often create the conditions for trauma, oppression, and disconnection
• Community is one of the most powerful antidotes 
• Healing helps us access the resilience needed to stay engaged with the challenges of our time
• Embodied practices can help transform fear and helplessness into presence, purpose, and action
• Working toward a more just and life-affirming future is both a healing practice and an act of hope

Staci has been experimenting at the intersections of personal and social transformation for the last 30 years through the work of politicized somatics, trauma healing, embodied leadership, and transformative justice. Her work brings transformative capacity building social and climate justice leaders, organizations and alliances. 

She is currently the co-lead of The Outer Work Project, an initiative partnering with internationally known trauma healing and embodiment leaders, and their communities, to mobilize thousands of new people into progressive social movements. The first cohort starts July 11th!

Staci is the author of The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing and Social Justice (2019) and Healing Sex: A Mind Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma. She co-founded generative somatics and founded generationFIVE, committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations. 

https://www.stacihaines.com/

The Outer Work Project

https://theouterworkproject.org/

Staci’s Books:

The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing, and Social Justice

https://www.amazon.com/Politics-Trauma-Somatics-Healing-Justice/dp/1623173876

Healing Sex: A Mind-Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma

⁠⁠https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Sex-Mind-Body-Approach-Sexual/dp/1573442933

Trainings:

https://www.stacihaines.com/self-paced

In this heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with longtime colleague and dear friend Deirdre Fay, a pioneering voice in somatic and attachment-based trauma treatment. Reflecting on nearly three decades of shared work, they revisit the early days of trauma therapy—when integrating the body, creativity, and relational healing into psychotherapy was still considered radical.

Together, Janina and Deirdre explore how healing from trauma requires more than revisiting painful memories. They discuss the importance of building safety first, helping clients develop the capacity to “notice” rather than become overwhelmed by their internal experiences, and using the body as a gateway to compassion and connection. Their conversation touches on the power of externalization, the role of creativity in trauma treatment, and how shame often emerges not as a personal flaw but as an attachment wound.

This episode offers a rich and deeply human reflection on how trauma treatment has evolved—and how healing happens through tiny steps, community, and learning to turn toward what nourishes us.

• Safety is the foundation of trauma healing

• Healing involves both body and mind

• “Notice you noticing” is a powerful therapeutic skill

• Shame is often an attachment wound

• Community reduces isolation and shame

Deirdre Fay believes that a good life is not an accident, but the result of consistently choosing compassion, connection, and inner growth. She invites people to experience life itself as a kind of modern-day Bodhisattva training — learning to listen deeply to the inner wisdom that can guide us through life’s challenges and transitions.

Her work resonates with those who appear successful on the surface yet privately struggle with shame, anxiety, depression, emotional distress, or repetitive relationship patterns. Through a transformational methodology developed over more than forty years of clinical practice and teaching, Deirdre offers practical pathways toward building what she calls a Solid, Steady, Secure Self.

Rooted in trauma therapy, attachment theory, yoga, and contemporary neuroscience, Deirdre integrates modern therapeutic approaches with wisdom traditions to help people transform suffering into a more fulfilling life. More recently, she has been exploring the use of creative arts as a way of externalizing inner experience and helping people find words for what has previously remained unspoken. Her work has been described as “a radically positive approach to life.”

https://www.dfay.com/

Attachment-Based Yoga & Meditation for Trauma Recovery: Simple, Safe, and Effective Practices for Therapy

https://www.amazon.com/Attachment-Based-Yoga-Meditation-Trauma-Recovery/dp/0393709906

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinical psychologist Paul Gilbert, the founder of Compassion-Focused Therapy, for a rich and reflective dialogue on shame, compassion, and the evolutionary roots of suffering. Drawing on over four decades of clinical work and research, Gilbert explores how shame is not simply a personal failing but a deeply embedded, biologically shaped experience tied to our need for social belonging. Together, Janina and Paul examine how threat-based systems dominate in trauma survivors, and why cultivating compassion can be both profoundly challenging and profoundly healing.

This conversation weaves together science, clinical insight, and personal reflection, illuminating how compassion can transform our relationship to ourselves and others. For therapists and curious listeners, this episode offers a powerful reframe: healing is not about eliminating pain, but about changing how we meet it.

• Shame is evolutionarily wired, not a personal defect

• The brain is shaped for survival, not happiness

• Compassion-Focused Therapy offers a pathway to safety

• Healing happens when clients can safely experience something different

• Clinicians play a crucial role in embodying and transmitting compassion, helping clients internalize it over time.

• Moving away from blame and toward curiosity is a foundational step in trauma recovery.

Paul Gilbert Bio

Paul Gilbert, FBPsS, PhD, OBE is Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Derby and honorary visiting Prof at the University of Queensland. Until his retirement from the NHS in 2016 he was Consultant Clinical Psychologist for over 40 years. He has researched evolutionary approaches to psychopathology with a special focus on mood, shame and self-criticism in various mental health difficulties for which Compassion Focused Therapy was developed. He was made a Fellow of the British Psychological Society in 1993, president of the BABCP 2002-2004, and was a member of the first British Governments’ NICE guidelines for depression. He has written/edited 23 books and over 300 papers and book chapters. In 2006 he established the Compassionate Mind Foundation as an international charity with the mission statement: To promote wellbeing through the scientific understanding and application of compassion (www.compassionatemind.co.uk). There are now a number of sister foundations in other countries. He was awarded an OBE by the Queen in March 2011 for services to mental health. He established and is the Director of the Centre for Compassion Research and Training at Derby University UK. His latest book is a major edited book with Prof G Simos (2022) Compassion: Clinical practice and Applications (Routledge).

www.compassionatemind.co.uk

www.profpaulgilbert.co.uk    

Key papers and links to further publications

Compassion: From Its Evolution to a Psychotherapy

Creating a Compassionate World: Addressing the Conflicts Between Sharing and Caring Versus Controlling and Holding Evolved Strategies

Google Scholar Profile

For recent videos series: Creating Compassionate World Interview Series

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Did you know? Results of a meta-analysis suggest CFT is effective in reducing symptoms of depression, anxiety and self-criticism.  Access the paper for free.

In this illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with Bruce Ecker, co-developer of Coherence Therapy and co-author of Unlocking the Emotional Brain, to explore the powerful role of implicit memory in shaping trauma and human behavior. Together, they challenge the long-standing focus on traumatic events themselves, shifting attention instead to what was learned from those experiences—and how those learnings continue to live on in the body and nervous system.

This episode offers a nuanced, practice-informed look at how therapists can access and shift implicit emotional learning, while also inviting listeners to reconsider how patterns, symptoms, and suffering may reflect meaningful adaptations rather than pathology. A must-listen for clinicians and anyone interested in the deeper mechanisms of healing.

• Trauma lives on through implicit emotional learnings, not just memories of events.

• Implicit memory drives present-day experience.

• Cognitive understanding has a limited impact on subcortical, implicit patterns.

• Lasting change happens when lived experiences directly contradict implicit beliefs.

• Effective therapy works gradually, allowing clients to access implicit material without overwhelm.

• Current experiences provide an accessible entry point into implicit memory.

• Repetitive behaviors and emotional responses reflect stored learning, even without explicit recall.

• Letting go of long-held implicit beliefs may bring relief, but also mourning for the life shaped by them.

Bio:

Bruce Ecker, MA, LMFT, is co-originator of Coherence Therapy, co-founder and co-director of the Coherence Psychology Institute, and coauthor of Unlocking the Emotional Brain: Memory Reconsolidation and the Psychotherapy of Transformational Change; the Coherence Therapy Practice Manual & Training Guide; and two other books and numerous peer-reviewed journal articles. Since 2006 he has driven the clinical field's understanding of memory reconsolidation as the core process of transformational therapeutic change, and has developed the application of this brain research breakthrough for major advancements in therapeutic effectiveness and psychotherapy unification. He has taught in clinical graduate programs, is a frequent presenter at conferences and workshops internationally, co-leads the Institute’s annual training intensive, leads several ongoing case consultation groups, and leads the Institute's team of research associates. 

Show Notes:

https://www.coherencetherapy.org/

Bruce’s peer-reviewed journal articles provide rigorous accounts of matters he mentions in this conversation with Janina, for example:

Ecker B. A proposal for the unification of psychotherapeutic action understood as memory modification processes. Journal of Psychotherapy Integration, 34, 291–314. https://doi.org/10.1037/int0000330  Download>>

Ecker, B., & Vaz, A. (2022). Memory reconsolidation and the crisis of mechanism in psychotherapy. New Ideas in Psychology, 66, 100945, 1–11.    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.newideapsych.2022.100945 Download>>

Ecker, B., & Bridges, S. K. (2020). How the science of memory reconsolidation advances the effectiveness and unification of psychotherapy. Clinical Social Work Journal, 48(3), 287–300. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10615-020-00754-z  Download>>

Key Takeaways:

In this deeply personal and illuminating conversation, Janina Fisher sits down with therapist, researcher, and founder of Black Therapists Rock, Deran Young, to explore the profound ways trauma, culture, and lived experience shape the nervous system—and the healing journey.

Deran shares her story of growing up in survival mode, serving in the military, and later discovering that she had been living on adrenaline for most of her life. Together, she and Janina reflect on the difference between being safe and feeling safe, the impact of racial and intergenerational trauma, and the ways the body carries survival patterns long after danger has passed.

Their conversation explores Internal Family Systems, the importance of learning to recognize signs of safety, the role of community in healing, and how psychedelic-assisted therapy helped Deran experience embodiment for the first time. Throughout the episode, they return to a powerful theme: that healing is not about productivity or performance, but about presence—learning to live in a body that no longer has to survive all the time.

This is a conversation about trauma, resilience, legacy burdens, and what it means to come home to yourself.

• The difference between being safe and feeling safe

• How many people live in chronic survival mode without realizing it

• The impact of racial trauma, intergenerational trauma, and systemic stress on the nervous system

• Why trauma symptoms are biological, not a choice

• The concept of “the biology of your biography”

• Learning to look for signs of safety rather than forcing calm

• The role of IFS, embodiment, and psychedelic-assisted therapy in healing trauma

• Why presence—not productivity—is the real measure of a meaningful life

https://blacktherapistsrock.com/events/

Show Notes:

Key Themes / Takeaways
Co-Authored this Book with Brene Brown - You are Your Best Thing: Vulnerability, Shame Resilience, and the Black Experience

In this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with David Grand, developer of Brainspotting, to explore how healing happens when therapists learn to trust the client’s nervous system rather than trying to direct it. Together, they reflect on the origins of Brainspotting, the role of observation and curiosity in clinical work, and the importance of what Grand calls the “dual attunement frame”—the integration of relational attunement with neurobiological attunement.

David shares the story of how Brainspotting emerged from a moment of careful observation while working with a performance block in an athlete, and how that moment led to a therapy model grounded in focused mindfulness, somatic processing, and deep respect for the client’s internal healing process. Throughout the conversation, Janina and David explore uncertainty as an essential part of therapy, the limitations of therapist-driven models, and the power of following the client’s natural processing rather than trying to lead it.

This episode is a rich conversation about humility in clinical work, the intelligence of the nervous system, and the ways trauma therapy continues to evolve as clinicians learn to listen more deeply—to the body, the brain, and the therapeutic relationship.

• Brainspotting developed through careful observation of clients’ natural processing rather than from a predefined theory.

• The “dual attunement frame” emphasizes that the therapeutic relationship comes first, followed by neurobiological processing.

• In the face of the nervous system’s complexity, therapists must work with curiosity and humility rather than certainty.

• Healing happens by trusting the client’s internal process and allowing the nervous system to lead.

• Somatic and subcortical processing may be the deepest form of trauma healing—even when it doesn’t involve conscious insight.

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina Fisher welcomes therapist, educator, and estrangement specialist Matthias Barker for a thoughtful exploration of family estrangement, attachment wounds, and the possibilities for healing across painful divides.

Drawing on his work with thousands of parents and adult children through Estrangement.com, Barker shares what he has learned about the growing phenomenon of family cutoffs and the emotional dynamics that often lie beneath them. Together, he and Dr. Fisher explore why repairing estranged relationships is rarely about resolving a single conflict. Instead, healing requires addressing deeper attachment injuries, misunderstandings, and the unsafe emotional environments that shaped the relationship over time.

Reflective and deeply human, this episode offers clinicians and listeners alike a nuanced look at how empathy, accountability, and emotional safety can open the door to healing—even after years of distance.

Key Takeaways

• Estrangement often reflects deeper attachment wounds. Family cutoffs are rarely caused by a single incident; they usually grow from unresolved emotional injuries within the relationship.
  

• Healing must precede reconciliation. Barker emphasizes that the goal is not simply to restore contact, but to support each person in doing their own internal healing work first.
  

• Shifting from “the story” to “the struggle.” Moving away from debating facts or blame allows families to acknowledge the underlying emotional pain that fuels conflict.
  

• Psychoeducation creates a neutral foundation. Learning about attachment patterns, trauma, and relational dynamics can help families step out of polarized “parent vs. child” narratives.
  

• Witnessing transforms understanding. Hearing others’ stories in a group setting can soften defenses and create unexpected empathy between estranged family members.
  

• Trauma is about environment, not just events. Fisher highlights that trauma often arises from living in chronically unsafe emotional environments—not only from specific incidents.
  

• Repair is possible through accountability and emotional safety. When family members acknowledge pain and respond with empathy, new relational pathways can begin to emerge.

Show Notes:

Website: 

estrangement.com

Bio:

Matthias Barker, LMHC, is a psychotherapist and founder of Estrangement.com, an online psychoeducation and support program for parents and adult children navigating long-term family disconnection. His work centers on illuminating the relational dynamics that sustain rupture or open pathways toward healing and repair. He has become one of the most widely followed voices on family estrangement in the world, reaching an audience of over four million people across social media and podcast platforms.

His training is integrative and draws from extended apprenticeships across several major therapeutic traditions. He trained in grief and loss under David Kessler, who co-authored multiple works with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross; in Internal Family Systems under Dr. Frank Anderson, the Harvard-trained psychiatrist who co-authored the IFS Skills Training Manual with the model’s originator, Richard Schwartz; and in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Relational Frame Theory under Dr. Matthieu Villatte, who co-authored Mastering the Clinical Conversation with ACT co-developer Steven C. Hayes. He contextualizes these modalities through attachment research and conflict theory, including the work of the Gottmans and Emotionally Focused Therapy.

He is currently conducting research on the patterns and pathways to healing that have emerged from his work with families, and is writing a book on the subject. He lives in Nashville with his wife and three children.

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with clinician, author, and attachment specialist Dafna Lender, LCSW, to explore the power of relationships in healing trauma—especially for children and families. Known for her work with TheraPlay and her book Integrative Attachment Family Therapy, Dafna shares the personal and professional journey that shaped her approach to therapy.

Together, Janina and Dafna reflect on how attachment disruptions and early relational trauma affect emotional development, and why healing must often involve not only the individual child but the entire family system. Their conversation highlights the importance of play, attunement, and embodied connection in helping children feel safe enough to heal. They also discuss how clinicians can support caregivers in becoming active partners in the therapeutic process, fostering deeper connection and long-term change.

Warm, thoughtful, and deeply human, this dialogue invites listeners to consider how connection, curiosity, and relationship remain at the heart of effective trauma treatment—for therapists, families, and the children they serve.

Key Takeaways

• Healing developmental trauma often requires working with the entire family system, not just the child.
  

• Attachment and relational safety are foundational for emotional regulation and growth.
  

• Play and experiential interactions can help children access connection and healing in ways that traditional talk therapy cannot.
  

• Supporting and empowering caregivers is essential to creating lasting change for children.
  

• Integrating body-based and attachment-focused approaches helps clinicians address trauma at both relational and physiological levels.

Bio:

Dafna is a family therapy expert and attachment specialist. Dafna is an international trainer and supervisor for practitioners who work with children and families. She is a certified trainer and supervisor/consultant in both Theraplay® and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (DDP), as well as an EMDR therapist.  Dafna’s expertise is drawn from 29 years of working with families in many settings: at-risk after school programs, therapeutic foster care, in-home crisis stabilization, residential care and private practice. Dafna’s style, whether as a therapist or teacher, is combining the light-hearted with the profound by bringing a playful, intense and passionate presence to every encounter. 

Dafna is author of Integrative Attachment Family Therapy (2023) and the co-author of Theraplay the Practitioner’s Guide (2020).  She teaches and supervises clinicians in 15 countries in 4 languages: English, Hebrew, French and Spanish.  

Website:https://www.dafnalender.com/

Book: Integrative Attachment Family Therapy: A Clinical Guide to Heal and Strengthen the Parent-Child Relationship through Play, Co-regulation, and Meaning-Making

In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher, Janina sits down with psychologist and EMDR pioneer Deborah Korn for a rich conversation about the evolution of trauma treatment and the delicate art of working with traumatic memory. Known for her thoughtful and compassionate approach to EMDR therapy and for her book Every Memory Deserves Respect, Debbie reflects on the clinical lessons that have shaped her decades of work with trauma survivors.

Together, Debbie and Janina Fisher explore what it means to approach traumatic memories with respect, patience, and humility. Debbie shares insights from her experience using EMDR with complex trauma, emphasizing the importance of pacing, preparation, and careful attunement to clients’ nervous systems. Their conversation highlights the ways therapists can support healing while avoiding overwhelm—helping clients process painful experiences without losing a sense of safety or stability.

Through personal stories and clinical reflections, Debbie discusses the responsibility therapists carry when guiding clients through trauma work, as well as the importance of curiosity, flexibility, and deep respect for each client’s inner experience. The result is a thoughtful dialogue about how trauma therapy continues to evolve and how clinicians can remain grounded in compassion while doing this powerful work.

Key Takeaways

• Every traumatic memory deserves respect. Trauma work requires careful pacing, sensitivity, and deep respect for the protective role memories and symptoms have played in a client’s life.
  

• Preparation is essential in trauma treatment. Stabilization, resource-building, and strong therapeutic alliance create the safety needed for effective trauma processing.
  

• EMDR can be powerful for complex trauma when used thoughtfully. Skilled clinicians must adapt protocols and pace the work according to the client’s nervous system and capacity.
  

• Therapists must balance courage with caution. Trauma processing requires both clinical confidence and humility about the risks of moving too quickly.
  

• Attunement guides the work. The therapist’s ability to notice shifts in the client’s body, emotions, and parts of self helps determine when to move forward and when to slow down.
  

• Healing unfolds through collaboration. The most effective trauma therapy happens when therapist and client work together with curiosity, respect, and patience.

  
  

  Deborah L.  Korn, PsyD maintains a private practice in Cambridge, MA and is on the training faculty of the Trauma Research Foundation and the EMDR Institute.  Dr. Korn has authored numerous articles and chapters focused on EMDR therapy, including comprehensive reviews of EMDR applications with Complex PTSD. She is an EMDR International Association-approved consultant and is also on the Editorial Board of the Journal of EMDR Practice and Research. She presents and consults internationally on the treatment of adult survivors of childhood abuse and neglect and recently released Every Memory Deserves Respect—a book about EMDR therapy, written for the layperson.   

  Website:

  https://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/

  Book:

  https://www.everymemorydeservesrespect.com/

  Please promote this program:

  
   https://www.cape.org/courses/emdr-therapy-debbie-korn-2026

In this moving conversation, trauma therapist Janina Fisher speaks with grief expert David Kessler about the evolving understanding of grief and its deep connection to trauma. Reflecting on his work with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and his own personal loss, Kessler shares how the concept of a sixth stage of grief—meaning—emerged. Together, they explore why grief is never linear, how compassion supports healing, and how loss can gradually be integrated into a life that continues to hold love, purpose, and connection.

Key Takeaways:

• Why grief is not a linear process
  

• The meaning behind the “sixth stage” of grief
  

• How trauma and loss intersect in healing
  

• Why compassion and connection matter in grief recovery

  
  

  David Kessler is one of the world’s foremost experts on grief and loss. His decades of experience with thousands of people on the edge of life and death has taught him the secrets to living a happy and fulfilled life, even after life’s tragedies. He is the author of seven books including his latest bestselling book, Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief, as well as a new Finding Meaning Companion Workbook. He co-authored two books with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, Life Lessons and On Grief and Grieving. He co-wrote You Can Heal Your Heart with Louise Hay and also wrote Visions, Trips and Crowded Rooms: Who and What You See Before You Die. His first book, The Needs of The Dying received praise from Saint (Mother) Teresa. His new online model of grief support, Tender Hearts, offers over twenty-five online grief groups.  David leads one of the most respected Grief Educator Certification programs. He is the founder of Grief.com.

  
  

  show notes

  website  

  Grief.com

  
  

  social media 

  instagram@Iamdavidkessler

  facebook@Iamdavidkessler