Innovation Metrics Podcast

Corporate innovation pioneer and former Citi Chief Innovation Officer Amy Radin joins host Elijah Eilert to explain how large, regulated organisations can move quickly without losing control. Amy shares how to turn likely vetoes into informed sponsorship. The conversation covers why disciplined, low-cost experiments generate decision-ready evidence, how strategic advocacy helps innovators win allies, and why partnering with finance and risk teams can convert uncertainty into competitive advantage. Amy also predicts that modular, interdisciplinary certificates will soon displace traditional MBAs as the preferred path for innovation leaders. From growing up in a small family business to navigating corporate boardrooms, Amy shares both the lessons she has learned and unlearn, insights every innovation leader can put to work today.

[00:20] Introducing Amy Radin: One of the first corporate Chief Innovation Officers in the world, dedicated to solving real customer problems.

[01:03] Defining innovation: New and viable solutions that meet unmet rational and emotional needs within legal, ethical and commercial limits.

[02:35] The innovation spectrum: “New” is relative to your company or market; incremental changes can be transformative internally.

[03:53] Metric pitfalls: Mature-business ROI hurdles choke exploration, focus first on learning milestones and evidence.

[05:24] Listen before you survey: Qualitative observation often outperforms data sets when desirability is uncertain.

[06:43] Empathy for CFOs: Understand that finance leaders are paid to protect cash flow and manage certainty. Apply the same discovery techniques you use with customers to CFOs: frame proposals as stage-gated micro-bets with clear spending caps, predefined kill criteria and measurable learning goals. Translating risk into the language of liquidity, runway and downside protection builds their confidence to fund experimentation.

[09:31] Budgeting experiments: Treat rapid tests as investments that generate decision-grade data.

[13:50] The corporate tax: In a big organisation, persuading decision-makers and influencers is not a side task, it is a huge part of the job. Innovators must decide whether they are willing to invest that time and energy to win sponsorship and move ideas forward.

[16:48] Strategic advocacy: Treat innovation like a social movement. Systematically map champions, fence-sitters and blockers; tailor value propositions and small “next step” asks for each group and build a visible coalition that tips policy, budget and culture from maybe to yes.

[22:25] Risk Review Committee: While piloting peer-to-peer mobile payments at Citi, Amy assembled a cross-functional forum brand, legal, compliance, cyber-security and enterprise-risk, before any contracts were drafted. By surfacing objectives early, walking through “what-if” scenarios and co-designing safeguards (smallest viable test, rapid-exit plan, advance regulator briefings), the team cut approval time, tightened controls and converted risk leaders from potential blockers into active sponsors.

[26:14] Innovation as risk management: In fast-moving markets, clinging to the status quo can expose the business to greater downside than disciplined experimentation. Strengthen the risk-management function so it actively champions sustainable innovation: build a balanced portfolio of stage-gated bets, cycle each through tight learning loops, and invite risk professionals in at the concept stage to co-design safeguards. Turning them into allies early prevents them from becoming project-killing gatekeepers later and ensures capital flows to the most promising ideas while weak bets are retired quickly.

[40:07] Urgency plus patience: Amy says innovators must “live at this intersection” of intense drive and deliberate listening. She freely admits her own very high sense of urgency and great passion, yet explains how she learned to slow down, hear stakeholders first and adjust before charging ahead. Balancing stubborn conviction with openness to feedback, she likens the practice to walking a tightrope where keeping your footing requires constant attention to both speed and reflection.

[42:28] Lessons from the corner drugstore: Working in her father’s Brooklyn pharmacy taught Amy two fundamentals she still applies until today, respect the P & L (“money in the till paid for dinner”) and obsess over customer experience.

[51:30] Future of innovation education: Amy predicts that traditional four-year degrees and full-time MBAs will fade as people stack low-cost, hybrid certificates throughout their careers. University learning will become “à la carte,” interdisciplinary and hands-on, giving learners just-in-time modules in design, business modelling and leadership rather than one-size-fits-all curricula. Continuous upskilling will be essential because technology and markets move too quickly for static credentials.

• Amy Radin on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyradin/
• Amy Radin's Website - https://amyradin.com/
• The Change Maker’s Playbook – https://www.amyradin.com/book/
• Fast Company – “Innovation: An Essential Investment in Times of Uncertainty” – https://www.fastcompany.com/91316488/innovation-an-essential-investment-in-times-of-uncertainty
• Columbia University Executive Education – Strategic Advocacy – https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/courses/emba/2025/spring/emba7037
• Turning Experiments into Numbers - https://innovationmetrics.co/workshops/innovation-accounting-course/

As one of the corporate world’s first Chief Innovation Officers, Amy Radin built Citi’s global innovation practice, then drove customer-centric expansion at American Express and AXA. Today she advises boards and senior teams, teaches in Columbia University’s M.S. Technology Management programme, and speaks worldwide on how “strategic advocacy” converts stakeholder resistance into support. Her award-winning book The Change Maker’s Playbook distils lessons from 50 innovators and captured the 2019 Silver Axiom Business Book Award. Amy’s insights appear in Forbes, Chief Executive, and other outlets, and she serves on advisory boards for several early-stage fintech and insurtech ventures.

AI adoption is skyrocketing, but most AI projects don’t deliver on their promises. In this episode, Dr. Evan Shellshear, Managing Director and Group CEO of Ubidy, breaks down why 80% of AI projects fail and what organisations can do to improve their chances of success.

Drawing insights from his book Why Data Science Projects Fail, Evan explores the biggest blockers to AI success, the importance of strategic alignment, and how companies can avoid wasting millions on AI initiatives that don’t deliver business impact.

Whether you are an AI practitioner, business leader, or innovation manager, this episode will help you separate AI hype from reality and make smarter technology investment decisions.

Why Data Science Projects Fail: The Harsh Realities of Implementing AI and Analytics, without the Hype:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Why-Data-Science-Projects-Fail/dp/103266133X?ref_=ast_author_dp 

Innovation Tools: The most successful techniques to innovate cheaply and effectively:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Innovation-Tools-Successful-Techniques-Effectively/dp/0646956469?ref_=ast_author_dp 

Evan shares his perspective on what defines innovation, emphasising that it is not just about new ideas but the impact they create. He draws a clear distinction between invention and innovation, explaining why an idea without impact remains an invention rather than a true innovation.

Innovation measurement starts with two key questions: Is it new? and What is its impact? Evan highlights the difficulty of measuring “newness” and discusses why impact should be measured based on purpose-driven innovation. He argues that metrics should align with a company’s innovation goals, whether it is patent creation, revenue growth, or industry transformation.

Evan contrasts the flexibility of small, nimble companies with the structural challenges of large enterprises. He explains how legacy systems, bureaucratic processes, and internal competition create significant barriers to innovation, making it difficult for new ideas to gain traction and survive within large corporations.

Evan breaks down the staggering failure rate of AI projects, estimating that up to 80% fail, with the number exceeding 90% for analytically immature organizations. He highlights the three biggest reasons AI initiatives go wrong:

1. Lack of strategic alignment – Organizations chase AI trends without clear business objectives.
2. Poor data quality and availability – Without the right data, even the best AI models fail.
3. Lack of experienced resources – Many AI teams lack deep expertise, leading to unrealistic expectations and weak execution.

Evan shares a fictitious story from Australia’s Outback, where a farmer was pitched an AI-driven solution for managing crops. While the technology sounded promising but overall, it was a poor investment. This example underscores why businesses should assess AI projects through a commercial viability lens, not just a technical one.

Evan introduces a simple framework to help organizations prioritize AI projects:

• Impact vs. Feasibility – Instead of chasing AI for AI’s sake, businesses should rank projects based on their potential impact and their actual ability to implement them.
• This portfolio approach helps companies avoid expensive AI failures by focusing on initiatives that align with strategy and available resources.

Evan and Elijah discuss a major issue in AI education—universities focus almost exclusively on technical skills, while the real reasons AI projects fail are business-related. He argues that universities must teach:

• Stakeholder management and project leadership
• Business strategy and problem framing
• How to align AI projects with real-world business needs

The conversation wraps up with a reminder that AI projects should be treated like marathon training—organizations need to build capabilities gradually rather than jumping straight into large-scale, high-risk initiatives.

Dr Evan Shellshear is the Managing Director and Group Chief Executive Officer of Ubidy, an innovative global recruitment marketplace leveraging AI to connect employers to specialist agencies. He has a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Science (single and double majors in mathematics) from The University of Queensland, a Diplom (equivalent of both a BSc and MSc) from the University of Bielefeld (Germany) and a PhD in Mathematical Economics (Game Theory) from the Institute of Mathematical Economics at the University of Bielefeld. Before his appointment at Ubidy, Evan was Chief Analytics Officer and Co-Chief Executive Officer at Biarri – one of Australia’s leading specialist analytics consultancies. Evan has consulted to leading businesses worldwide across industries from manufacturing to retail, from healthcare to supply chain, and from oil and gas to energy. He has published or co-published four books on topics from innovation (Innovation Tools) to artificial intelligence, business analytics, and data science (Why Data Science Projects Fail) and has published almost 100 articles in leading blogs, magazines and news outlets. He has served on multiple advisory boards of state, national and international institutes, has multiple accreditations across numerous digital platforms and is a thought leader in the fields of AI, innovation and strategy. He holds Adjunct academic appointments at the Queensland University of Technology and at The University of Queensland.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eshellshear/

In this episode, Elijah Eilert sits down with Étienne Garbugli. Étienne, the CEO of Sliced, veteran founder, and author of several books, shares his insights.

The conversation centers around Étienne’s most recent book, Find Your Market. The book explores how to effectively find Product/Market Fit when innovations are already built or at least partially developed without having factored in the market need properly. Most innovators understand the need for research and experimentation before committing significant resources to but in reality, many organisations, Research and Development departments, and especially universities all too often do not adhere to it. 

• Étienne kicks off by reframing how we should think about innovation—not just products, but improvements in services, processes, and distribution. He makes a strong case for continuous iteration as the key to staying relevant in today’s hyper-competitive landscape.

• Étienne discusses different approaches to measuring innovation, from immediate goals (Horizon 1) to long-term, high-uncertainty efforts. He shares his perspective on why understanding progress in increments is key, especially when navigating high-risk innovation projects.

• Elijah and Étienne explore a major, yet often overlooked, barrier to innovation—career progression. In organisations, those who get promoted are often seen as people who make the “right” decisions. This clashes with the exploratory and uncertain nature of genuine innovation, which frequently involves taking risks and failing.

• A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Étienne’s book, Find Your Market: Discover and Win Your Product’s Best Market Opportunity. He walks listeners through his bottom-up approach to identifying markets—starting from precise, actionable customer segments and expanding outward—contrasted against traditional top-down TAM analysis. Elijah and Étienne jokingly refer to it as “Lean Startup, but backwards,” emphasising how companies with an existing product can work backward to find Product/Market-Fit but in a lean way.

• They discuss how to align innovation metrics with broader business strategy. Measuring learning outcomes and value creation through insights—rather than just focusing on short-term financial gains. Étienne also shares how even seasoned entrepreneurs often realise their understanding of markets evolves significantly over time.

• Étienne explains how his company, Sliced helps companies break down broader target audiences into smaller, more actionable segments. This process enables companies to better understand where their true market opportunities lie.

• The conversation closes with an insightful exploration of how organisations decide between building innovations internally or acquiring them. Étienne compares these paths, drawing from examples like Atlassian and Google, and offers his thoughts on which makes sense depending on the broader innovation thesis.

Étienne is the CEO of Sliced, a consulting firm that helps growing tech companies find the best customers for their products.

He is also a three-time startup founder (Highlights, Flagback, and HireVoice), a six-time entrepreneur, and a customer research expert.

In 2014, Étienne published the first edition of Lean B2B: Build Products Businesses Want. The Lean B2B Methodology has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and innovators worldwide build successful businesses. In 2020 he published Find Your Market, The SaaS Email Marketing Playbook, and Solving Product.

His presentation 26 Time Management Hacks I Wish I’d Known at 20 was viewed by more than 32 million people.

For more about Étienne and his work, visit Étienne’s Website.

Elijah Eilert is talking to Peter LePiane about innovation within large organizations. Part 2 of the podcast explores various aspects of innovation related decision-making. Peter opens up about his background in science and computer science, his Startup journey and how he nearly founded Airbnb and Shopify. He introduces Estimatic, his latest venture, software designed to model uncertain projects and ideas.

The episode addresses the concept of innovation accounting, common misconceptions in business case analysis, and the value of information by connecting learning to financial outcomes. The episode challenges traditional practices in organizations and focuses on the importance of understanding human behaviour to achieve success for new products and organisational change management.

Throughout this episode, the duo explores a myriad of topics central to innovation-related decision-making and highlights the value of information, connecting it to financial outcomes. Unravelling the concept of innovation accounting, Peter debunks the common misconceptions prevalent in business case analysis. The episode challenges traditional practices and underscores the pivotal role of comprehending human behaviour in achieving success, whether for new products or the intricacies of change management within organizations.

[01:43] Understanding Human Behavior in Change Management

• Products succeed or fail based on human behavior, as do organizational changes. Understanding human behavior is therefore crucial.
• Peter recommends checking out Lean Change Management and gives a shoutout to Jason Little!

[05:23] Peter’s Background

• Peter’s background as a software engineer.
• How he transitioned from science to computer science at the University of Waterloo.
• His journey into the startup world.
• How Peter launched Airbnb and Shopify (kinda).
• Peter’s experience working on web development and e-commerce projects.

[16:15] Estimatic

• Peter explains his startup, Estimatic, a Monte Carlo tool for modelling uncertainties.
• The importance of accurately depicting uncertainty in business models.
• Critique of the misleading hockey stick growth projections in startup presentations.
• The need to provide a range with a probability of future outcomes instead of point predictions.

[25:51] Challenges in Corporate Innovation Decision-Making

• Addressing the challenges of making decisions in large corporations.
• Mentioning the lack of recognition for risk management in decision-making.
• Highlighting the absence of structures rewarding risk management.

[26:53] The Concept of Innovation Accounting

• Elijah and Peter delve into the concept of innovation accounting and its evolution.
• Explain how innovation accounting combines the uncertain nature of innovation with concrete numerical measurements.
• Emphasize the importance of connecting learning to financial outcomes.
• Discussing the use of Monte Carlo simulations in innovation accounting.

Quantifying Learning and Progress (32:43)

• Discussing the measurement of progress in innovation accounting.
• Mentioning the value of reducing the range of uncertainty.
• Emphasizing the value and significance of measuring uncertainty reduction.
• Discussing the impact of reducing uncertainty on decision-making.
• Linking uncertainty reduction to financial value and decision-making processes.

[39:55] Common Misconceptions in Business Case Analysis

• Addressing common misconceptions in traditional business case analysis.
• Critiquing the practice of averaging best and worst-case scenarios.
• Highlighting the inaccuracy of assuming likely outcomes from extreme cases.

[44:14] The Value of Quantification in Decision-Making

• Emphasizing the importance of quantifying assumptions and outcomes.
• Discussing the misleading nature of averaging best and worst-case scenarios.
• Challenging the common practice of this approach in organizations.

Meet Peter LePiane, the accomplished management consultant with a track record of helping organizations transform how they validate and launch products and services. With a background in start-ups, incubators, venture capital, and professional coaching, Peter has spent the last two and a half decades refining his consulting toolbox serving a diverse range of clients from midsize companies to large, multinational corporations in industries including financial services, insurance, retail, telecommunications, consumer packaged goods, and fragrance manufacturing. Do you need to create the next big breakthrough but don’t know how to discover what your customer wants with certainty? Feel like you need to redesign how your organization thinks and operates but you don’t know where to start? Do you know that culture follows structure but don’t know what part of the structure to change first? Peter is the innovation change maker who can empower you to break through the status quo.

Peter’s professional coaching background differentiates and allows him to be the brave champion required in the face of drastic organizational mindshifts. It equips Peter to help both leaders and teams of innovation change shape their habits towards:

• Generating and investing in ideas that align to the organization’s Innovation Thesis
• Recognizing and challenging assumptions
• Outcome-based and disciplined experimentation
• Designing from a customer and human-centred perspective
• Acknowledging learning as the most valuable corporate currency
• Trading the dream of future assumed success for the reality of current customer feedback

Peter’s most prominent innovation transformation accomplishments include:

• Co-created an internal innovation services organization within Canada’s most valuable and respected telecommunications company with annual revenues of $17B.
• Ingraining assumption-challenging, experimentation, and customer-centric habits into a highly regulated, multinational organization’s culture.
• Transforming two of Canada’s big five banks to a culture of innovation and agility.
• Creating leading-edge Lean Innovation and Agile training content delivered across Canada and at Queen’s University School of Business.
• Transitioning one of Canada’s largest TSX listed insurers and wealth managers with over $36B in assets under administration to agility.

LinkedIn | Email

Elijah Eilert is talking to Peter LePiane about innovation within large organizations. Part one of the podcast, explores the core principles of innovation, the challenges associated with measuring its impact, and the formidable obstacles faced in corporate landscapes.

Starting with the question of “What is Innovation?” Peter offers his perspective, emphasizing the fusion of novelty and impact in the concept of innovation. According to him, innovation involves the introduction of genuinely new ideas or solutions to the world, with a keen focus on how these innovations are received within the market. The episode underscores that innovation is not limited to grandiose endeavours like space exploration; it can manifest subtly yet profoundly in various aspects of a business. Transitioning to the topic of “Measuring Innovation,” the podcast shines a spotlight on this often-overlooked aspect that is crucial for evaluating the effectiveness of innovation efforts. Finally, the conversation confronts the significant hurdles that hinder innovation within large organizations. From challenges rooted in organizational design and financial models to the complexities of incentive structures and cultural mindsets, the barriers that can impede progress are dissected. The episode aims to provide practical insights into overcoming these challenges and fostering a culture that actively promotes and sustains innovation.

[02:28] What is Innovation?

Peter’s perspective on innovation combines novelty and impact. For him, innovation is about introducing something new and meaningful to the world, with a focus on both the idea itself and its reception in the market.

• Innovation is a complex concept, often meaning different things to different people.
• Key element: Newness – something genuinely new or groundbreaking.
• Example: Even improving efficiency in a manufacturing plant could be considered innovative if it introduces a new approach.
• Not necessarily about launching rockets or exploring Mars, but introducing something novel to a market.
• Novelty is essential, but it’s not enough on its own
• The Importance of Impact
• Innovation must have a tangible impact or value.
• People must care about it for it to truly matter.
• Requires a practical business model or a container to bring it to market effectively.
• The market should demand it, making it an essential ingredient of innovation.
• The “Tree Falling in the Forest” Analogy
• Innovation that goes unnoticed or unappreciated might not truly qualify as innovation.
• It’s like the philosophical question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a sound if nobody hears it.

[08:28] How Should Innovation be Measured?

• Interrogating the Notion of Measurement
• The podcast delves into the intriguing question of how to quantify innovation effectively.
• The focus is on whether measurement means seeking signs of success and discerning the impact of innovation.

• Benchmarking Against Initial Expectations
• The discussion emphasizes that assessing innovation often involves gauging whether it lived up to the expectations initially set for it.
• Innovation frequently demands substantial investments in terms of time, resources, and capital.
• These expectations can be both internal, rooted in what the innovator believes the market will desire, and external, influenced by competitors or industry norms.

• Significance of Understanding Expectations
• The viewpoint put forth suggests that grasping the initial expectations is pivotal when measuring innovation.
• These expectations serve as a reference point against which the actual performance of the innovation can be evaluated.
• Measuring innovation should primarily concentrate on its alignment with these initial anticipations.

[30:59] What are the biggest blockers to innovation in large organizations?

• Organizational Design: A Key Challenge
• Exploration of how the design of large organizations can pose significant obstacles to innovation.
• Mention of financial models in sectors like banking and insurance that often require substantial upfront investments in unproven ideas.
• Emphasis on the necessity of adapting organizational design, including funding models, to foster innovation.

• Incentive Structures and the Experimenter’s Mindset
• Introduction of incentive structures as a pivotal component of organizational design influencing innovation.
• Explanation of the “experimenter’s mindset” as a cultural facet linked to organizational design.
• Highlighting the significance of distinguishing between facts and assumptions in decision-making.

• Measuring Innovation Progress
• Discussion on metrics and tools for tracking innovation progress within large organizations.
• Emphasis on establishing learning metrics to gauge the effectiveness of innovation efforts.
• Mention of real-world examples where learning metrics have proven invaluable.

• Overcoming Resistance to Change
• Insights into strategies for overcoming resistance to change when reshaping organizational design.
• Discussion on the role of leadership in driving these changes successfully.

• Fostering an Innovation-Friendly Culture
• Exploring the role of culture in supporting innovation within large organizations.
• Strategies for cultivating a culture that embraces experimentation and learning.

Elijah Eilert is talking to Kumuda Suppayah an Innovation strategist, and business transformation expert in the Oil and Gas sector. 

The second part of this episode delves into the fascinating world of corporate venturing and organizational adaptability with insights from a research paper that Kumuda co-authored titled, "Enhancing Organizational Adaptability through Corporate Venturing." The paper's primary focus is to understand the culture and processes that enable successful corporate venturing, a critical strategy for organizations looking to thrive in a rapidly changing business landscape. 

Explore the significance of corporate venturing, distinguish it from strategic entrepreneurship, and unveil the key ingredients for corporate venturing success in this episode. We'll also uncover the secrets to sustaining funding, managing corporate venturing portfolios, and fostering an agile ecosystem. 

The opinions expressed in this podcast and research are those of the author/guest and are based on her personal research.

Elijah Eilert is talking to Kumuda Suppayah an Innovation strategist, and business transformation expert in the Oil and Gas sector. 

Part 1 of the episode is designed around three main questions:

• What is innovation?
• How should innovation be measured?
• What are the biggest blockers to innovation in large organisations? 

This podcast episode explores the broad concept of innovation and its various facets. It begins by defining innovation as a departure from the norm and highlights the importance of tying innovation to specific outcomes. The discussion then delves into different types of innovation, including incremental, sustaining, and disruptive, with real-world examples illustrating their significance. Measuring innovation becomes a key focus, with an emphasis on balancing leadership's need for certainty with employees' concerns about potential consequences. The episode also addresses common challenges in fostering innovation within large organizations, such as miscommunication, misaligned expectations, and resistance to measurement. Overall, it provides valuable insights into the nuances of innovation in organizational settings and offers strategies for overcoming common barriers.

[02:28] What is Innovation?

Kumuda defines innovation as doing something differently from how it is currently done.

She shares her approach to explaining innovation to her own children, emphasizing change as a fundamental aspect. She discusses the importance of tying innovation to specific outcomes or goals to facilitate acceptance and adaptation.

[04:03] Different Types of Innovation:

• Elijah and Kumuda explore the idea that innovation can encompass both large and small changes.
• Kumuda introduces three specific types of innovation:

[04:28] Incremental Innovation

• Something that often involves process improvements. Examples of time-saving changes that enhance performance and employee experience are shared.

[05:40] Sustaining Innovation:

• An effort to maintain market position. Product innovation and its role in adapting to customer needs are discussed. Digital transformation is highlighted as a key component of sustaining innovation, enabling real-time customer interaction and response.

[07:11] Disruptive Innovation:

• Kumuda introduces disruptive innovation as a form of innovation that disrupts traditional business models. The focus is on offering customers new and improved experiences while addressing pain points. The competitive advantages of disruptive innovation, including market expansion, are emphasized

[08:28] How Should Innovation be Measured?

Follow insights on two contrasting perspectives on measuring innovation: leadership's desire for certainty and employees' concerns about potential repercussions. She emphasizes the importance of implementing measurements that serve the needs of top management while also motivating employees with achievable targets.

• Kumuda suggests dividing measurement into categories such as input metrics output metrics or leading and lagging indicators.
• Lagging indicators are described as definitive measures that showcase the results of effort, such as revenue targets. For incremental innovation, examples of lagging indicators include time saved and increased revenue.
• The discussion briefly touches upon leading indicators for sustaining and disruptive innovation.
• The challenges in defining leading indicators for disruptive innovation are highlighted.
• Leading indicators are viewed as essential for employees to feel safe and ensure they are making daily efforts toward achieving future outcomes.

[17:19] Balancing Employee Control and Stress:

• Elijah discusses the stress factor related to innovation teams being measured against outcomes they cannot control.
• The importance of organizations establishing appropriate measures for innovation teams is recognized.

[18:13] Conflict of Expectations:

• Kumuda shares insights from a study about the conflict of expectations between top management and employees in the context of innovation. 
• The challenge of innovation proposals not immediately committing to revenue targets is discussed.
• The miscommunication between top management and innovation drivers is explored.
• The concept of leading indicators as a means to bridge this gap is introduced.

[20:02] Exploring Beyond the Comfort Zone:

• Kumuda hints at a paper she has coauthored, which will be further explored in episode 2 of this podcast, noting that it discusses innovation blockers. One if these blockers is labelled in the paper as ‘Exploring Beyond the Comfort Zone’.

[30:59] What are the biggest blockers to innovation in large organizations?

• Miscommunication and Mismatched Expectations: One significant blocker is the mismatch between top management and innovators. This misalignment can lead to confusion, wasted resources, and burnout among innovators. Bridging this communication gap and creating alignment between management and innovators is essential.
• Iterative Process vs. Management Expectations: Another challenge arises from the iterative nature of innovation. Innovators often need to pivot, adapt, and experiment to find the right solutions. However, management may be more accustomed to traditional, linear approaches, leading to conflicts in expectations about the innovation process. Creating a culture that accepts pivots and experimentation is crucial for fostering innovation.
• Innovation Bookkeeping: Innovators need to focus on gathering the right information at the right time and making data-driven decisions. However, many innovators resist the idea of measuring their efforts and progress systematically. Implementing innovation accounting and innovation bookkeeping, which tracks the information gathered, its impact and cost can help create accountability and trust within the organization.
• Mindset Limitations: Many innovators face mindset limitations related to risk-taking. They may struggle with taking calculated risks and admitting that they don't have all the answers. This risk-averse mindset can hinder innovation efforts, as innovation often involves a high likelihood of failure. Encouraging a culture of experimentation and acknowledging that not every initiative will succeed can help overcome this mindset barrier.
• Lack of Clarity and Direction: When innovation efforts lack a clear goal or direction, they can become unfocused and lose momentum. Top-down-driven innovation initiatives without a defined outcome can lead to skepticism and a lack of trust in the organization's commitment to innovation. Ensuring that innovation initiatives have clear objectives and tangible outcomes is essential for success.
• Innovation Theatre: Another challenge is when innovation is driven by hype rather than meaningful outcomes. Activities such as idea hackathons may generate a lot of buzz, but without a structured approach to implementation and measurable results, they can result in disillusionment and a perception that innovation is all talk and no action.

Addressing these blockers requires a combination of effective communication, cultural shifts, measurement of innovation efforts, and clear strategic direction. Overcoming these challenges can pave the way for successful innovation in large organizations. 

Episode 15 - Psychological Safety, Cognitive Diversity, Trust & Fear in Innovation 

Elijah Eilert is talking to Susie Braam and Ed Essey, two seasoned innovators. The episode takes you on a corporate innovation journey, covering how to define innovation and tips and tricks on how to measure it. The discussion sheds light on both innovation blockers and enablers, exploring concepts like psychological safety, cognitive diversity, trust, and fear. Furthermore, the conversation addresses the challenges and opportunities of innovation amidst an economic downturn and the transformative impact of cutting-edge technologies like artificial intelligence. The second part of the episode explores the defining traits of a genuine catalyst, driving impactful change within large organisations. A “cathartic and energising episode”. 

[00:00] Teaser & Innovation Metrics Podcast Intro

[01:35] Introducing the Guests, Susie Braam & Ed Essey 

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• Susie and Ed have known each other and worked together for a while. 
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• Both have also been quests on the show before. 
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[03:22] What is Innovation?

Different definitions for innovation are offered Susie defines innovation as something new that improves our lives, a combination of novelty and impact. The importance of a shared language within organizations for understanding innovation is emphasized. Innovation under the current economic climate and technological shifts is discussed. 

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• Susie defines innovation as something new that makes our lives better in some way, a combination of novelty and impact. Ed presents a metaphor where innovation can be viewed as fruit, trees, or soil, depending on the focus of innovation efforts. 
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• Everybody emphasizes the importance of speaking the same language within an organization to align on the understanding of innovation.
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• The challenges faced by innovation leaders are discussed, especially when innovation is narrowly defined as focusing solely on generating new products and services (the fruit) without considering the importance of culture and processes (trees and soil). Ed notes that such roles often face challenges due to the pressure for immediate high returns, making it difficult for them to stay in the position for long. 
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• The conversation shifts to the current economic climate, with Susie noting that many organizations are more cautious and focused on optimization and efficiencies due to a possible recession. Ed adds that it's an interesting time for technology as there's a generational shift with language models like GPT becoming more accessible, which offer new opportunities for innovation. They agree that companies that embrace the potential of new technologies and continue to invest in exploration are likely to succeed in the long run.
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[19:22] How do you think innovation should be measured?

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• The questions are divided into measuring innovation outcome vs process.
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• The challenges of measuring progress in the innovation process are discussed. Susie emphasizes the importance of valuing learning and articulating progress through visual methods, such as using business model canvases or two-by-twos to show innovation risk and potential.
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• Susie suggests metrics such as understanding how much closer innovation gets to the vision, potential scale and actual scale of impact, efficiency, speed, accuracy, quality, joy, behavioural shifts, and the consequences of action and inaction.
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• The difficulty in measuring non-events, such as success in preventing security incidents, and drawing parallels to the value of preventative medicine in health insurance is explored. 
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• Innovation is like health insurance for organizations - nobody wants to get sick but if someone gets sick it's good to be insured. For organisations, this means being prepared for future changes and disruptions.
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• The discussion concludes with the understanding that innovation should encompass both risk mitigation and planning for growth and constant improvement in different areas, which is crucial for an organization's overall health and success.
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[39:17] What is the biggest blocker to innovation in your or in large organizations?

One of the biggest blockers to innovation in large organizations is short-term thinking and prioritization of shipping something over impact. Leaders often focus on immediate delivery and may shut down exploration prematurely, closing off potential opportunities for innovation.

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• Fear and Psychological Safety: Fear is another significant blocker to innovation. Fear of failure, wasting resources, or going against the consensus opinion can hinder creativity and risk-taking. Psychological safety, on the other hand, is about creating an environment where individuals feel safe to express themselves, ask questions, and offer dissenting opinions without fear of negative consequences.
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• Leveraging Cognitive Diversity: Teams with cognitive diversity, where members bring different perspectives and cognitive skills, have better innovation outcomes. However, to leverage this diversity effectively, organizations need to foster psychological safety so that team members feel comfortable expressing their diverse opinions.
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• Measurement of Psychological Safety: Psychological safety and cognitive diversity can be measured through surveys and instruments like those developed by Amy Edmondson's team at Harvard Business School. These tools help assess how safe team members feel to speak up, offer opinions, and take risks.
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• Ambidextrous Organizations: To foster innovation, organizations need to balance the execution of current business models with the exploration of new ideas and opportunities. Creating a culture of psychological safety and embracing cognitive diversity can help organizations become more ambidextrous and innovative.
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• Research: Microsoft is collaborating with Sense Worldwide to conduct research on cognitive diversity in teams to understand their impact on innovation outcomes. This ongoing research aims to provide insights into team dynamics and potential strategies for enhancing innovation within organizations. Microsoft has a wealth of data here, given the organisation is running the world's largest hackathon with over 10,000 projects to date. 
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[01:03:19] The Catalyst

This part of the conversation is centred around the topic of organizational catalysts, their traits, and the challenges they face. Leaders should identify and nurture these individuals to drive impactful change. Susie has been researching this subject and has conducted interviews to understand what motivates these catalysts and how they can be nurtured and supported in organizations. Some key themes that emerged from the discussion include:

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• Traits of Catalysts: Catalysts are highly curious, impact-driven, collaborative, energetic, and tend to have a growth mindset. They see the big picture and are self-motivated. Genuine catalysts are holistic in their approach, looking for ways to make the entire organization better.
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• Leaders' Role: Leaders can support catalysts by providing autonomy and space for exploration while also offering challenges and support. They need to genuinely encourage and support innovation rather than push their own predetermined solutions.
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• Disruptors vs. Disruptive: There is a distinction between genuine catalysts and those who are merely disruptive. Genuine catalysts are collaborative and open-minded, while disruptive individuals may be egocentric and focused on their own ideas.
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• Psychological Safety: Catalysts often face challenges and resistance in traditional organizations, leading to feelings of loneliness and frustration. Leaders should create a psychologically safe environment for them to thrive.
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• Self-Care: Catalysts need to take care of their mental health and know when to step back from an idea or project that is not progressing due to external constraints.
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[01:22:19] Closing Off

The closing part of the conversation touches upon the importance of trust in fostering a healthy and innovative work environment. Fear and lack of trust can be significant blockers to innovation and the success of catalysts within organizations. Building trust requires understanding each other better and being vulnerable with one another.

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• Ed mentions the Prisoner's Dilemma, which is a game theory concept where individuals must make decisions based on trust and cooperation. He highlights that in the long run, the best outcome tends to be mutual support and kindness.
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• Elijah is a bit of a downer and is going through some healing :) 
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• Susie emphasizes the value of having conversations with like-minded individuals, like the one on this podcast, as it can be cathartic and energizing. 
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Ed Essey

Ed Essey helps intrapreneurs have, test, and grow brilliant ideas in the Microsoft Garage. He is an MIT grad, serial founder, and veteran product leader who is passionate about technology, creating great culture, and innovating through experimentation.

During his engineering career, Ed has researched AI, worked on Microsoft Office, and democratized parallel computing. He has led company-wide change management programs in innovation, design-thinking, and agile methodologies that have helped over 25,000 employees earn raving fans for their products. He is the founder of the Garage experimental outlet that has delivered over 150 new and exciting projects to market.

Ed practices mindfulness to bring his most courageous and caring self to every connection. He champions wise technology, because the best products cannot stop at intelligence, they need wisdom. Ed lives in Seattle with his two children. To find out more about Ed, please visit edessey.com to read his articles on innovation, incubation, and growth.

Susie Braam

Susie Braam spent 20 years in the public sector working a broad spectrum of roles and experiences.  Predominantly in the National Security arena, she dealt with many fast-paced, changing and complex situations. Between 2016 and 2022, Susie led innovation and digital transformation efforts within the UK Government as Head of Innovation first at the Ministry of Defence and then at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. 

Entrepreneur and Founder

In 2020, Susie co-founded Yellow Cat, an Innovation Training and Coaching company focussed on supporting those corporate heroes who are trying to transform their organisations from within.  Yellow Cat also supports student innovation teams, start-ups and small businesses in business model design and development.

In late 2020, the end of a challenging and tumultuous year, Susie went on to establish Mulberry Retreats, with the aim of providing sanctuary and optimism to individuals in challenging leadership positions. The mission at Mulberry Retreats is to empower leaders with the mindset, skills and confidence to create a positive future for themselves, their organisations and the people within.

Guest Speaker and Writer

Susie routinely writes and speaks about leadership, strategy and innovation, providing insights from her experience and thought leadership.  She has a natural and engaging style and her refreshingly candid approach makes her a popular speaker.

Susie lives in south-east London with her family.

Check out our innovation accounting program 

Elijah Eilert is talking to Ed Essey Director of Business Value at the Microsoft Garage. In this episode, Ed introduces an analogy of an fruit tree to explain innovation. The tree represents the innovation system that delivers fruit or innovation projects. The soil is the nourishing culture for the tree to produce. Unsuccessful fruits fall down and become fertilisers for the tree. Ed emphasizes the importance of creating organisational ambidexterity to execute known businesses while creating entirely new ones. The discussion on measuring innovation explores innovation accounting and dives into storyboarding, hypothesis-driven financial modelling, ‘Stakeholder Development’, modelling and what metrics to focus on. Further the three factors in decision-making: merit, alignment, and executive judgment. This episode covers lots of ground in an authentic chat with a great human being.

Ed Essey helps intrapreneurs have, test, and grow brilliant ideas in the Microsoft Garage. He is an MIT grad, serial founder, and veteran product leader who is passionate about technology, creating great culture, and innovating through experimentation.

During his engineering career, Ed has researched AI, worked on Microsoft Office, and democratized parallel computing. He has led company-wide change management programs in innovation, design-thinking, and agile methodologies that have helped over 25,000 employees earn raving fans for their products. He is the founder of the Garage experimental outlet that has delivered over 150 new and exciting projects to market.

Ed practices mindfulness to bring his most courageous and caring self to every connection. He champions wise technology, because the best products cannot stop at intelligence, they need wisdom. Ed lives in Seattle with his two children. To find out more about Ed, please visit edessey.com to read his articles on innovation, incubation, and growth.

LinkedIn / Twitter / Website / Medium

[00:02:00] Defining Innovation – Discussing the difference between invention and innovation and how innovation is taking something new or a new approach to something and following it through until a problem is solved.

[00:02:46] Innovation as an Fruit Tree – Ed introduces the analogy of an fruit tree to explain innovation. The tree is the system or program that delivers fruit i.e. innovation projects. The soil is the nourishing culture for the tree. If an innovation doesn’t work out and the metaphorical fruit falls to the ground, it is not seen as a failure but the gained insights or learnings become fertiliser for the soil.

[00:06:16] Organizational Ambidexterity – Ed talks about the importance of creating organisational ambidexterity, which is to be able to relentlessly execute unknown businesses on the one hand and then on the other hand to be able to create entirely new businesses.

[00:09:52] Measuring Innovation – How to measure innovation/how should innovation be measured?

•  How the concept of innovation accounting coined by Eric Ries was a bit hard to figure out
•  How Tristan Kromer worked on it and created a clear answer for Ed with the Innovation Accounting Program
•  David Binetties concept of Innovation Options
•  Ed covers how he has modelled his internal innovation program using innovation accounting
•   How to model from a manager’s perspective
•   How to use the results to influence and drive outcome
•      On Stakeholder Development (Borrowing from the term Customer Development).
• Make sure to ask managers and sponsors questions and try to flip the conversation on its head.
• How the Innovation Accounting Program led to Ed changing his title from Entrepreneurship at Microsoft to Director of Business Value at the Garage

[00:17:00] Modeling Business Strategy – Ed shares his experience of modelling his boss’s business strategy as a funnel, using innovation accounting. Emphasizing the importance of understanding the overall strategy and metrics of the organisation.

[00:27:52] Sponsorship and Project Selection – Discussion on the importance of project selection and sponsorship, and the potential bias in selecting only sponsored projects.

[00:30:01] Factors in Decision Making – The three factors in decision making: merit, alignment, and executive judgment, and the importance of understanding how executives make decisions

[00:33:55] Understanding Manager’s Goals – The importance of understanding a sponsor’s charter and goals, and how to have a compelling conversation to show how an idea can support their strategies.

[00:36:28] Sponsor Development – The concept of sponsor development, which is similar to customer development, and the importance of understanding a sponsor’s goals and perspective.

[00:37:14] Measuring Innovation – Discussion on how to measure innovation and the importance of defining the word “should” more crisply

[00:37:48] Challenges of Measuring Innovation – Exploring the challenges that large corporations face in measuring innovation at scale.

[00:41:03] Storyboarding and Innovation Accounting – Discussion on the Innovation Accounting Program and the importance of storyboarding and hypothesis-driven financial modelling for measuring innovation.

[00:47:38] Adapting to Change – Challenges engineers face with transitions and adapting to change.

[00:48:24] Asking Questions – Transitioning to discussing the three questions that will make up the podcast.

[00:49:30] Innovation Blockers – About the main blockers for innovation in large organisations.

https://kromatic.com/programs/innovation-accounting

https://innovationmetrics.co/workshops/innovation-accounting-course/

Elijah Eilert is talking to Matt Clancy about what makes people become entrepreneurs and how the accessibility of information fosters innovation. The episode is guided by some of Matt's publications that he summarizes for us before discussing the findings further.

The first main topic of discussion is about the "idea" of being an entrepreneur and how entrepreneurship is contagious. The findings from various studies show that people are more likely to start a business if they have been around entrepreneurs or have entrepreneurial role models close to them. However, being around former entrepreneurs doesn't necessarily make it more likely to start a successful business. The second main topic is about the effect of access to knowledge on innovation. The discussion is based on three different papers that explore the relationship between knowledge access and innovation. The findings suggest that access to knowledge boosts innovation.