Continuing the Conversation with Deng Ming-Dao

Guest: Deng Ming-Dao (Daoist philosopher, author, and artist)

Episode Overview

In this powerful continuation of Episode 143, hosts Jaye McElroy and Leta Herman dive deeper into their transformative conversation with renowned Daoist philosopher and artist Deng Ming-Dao. This episode explores the intersection of creativity, healing, and daily practice, offering profound insights for artists, healers, and anyone seeking to live more authentically.

This episode is essential listening for artists, healers, and anyone interested in living a more creative, authentic life. The conversation bridges ancient Daoist wisdom with practical modern applications for reclaiming creativity and attention in our distracted world.

Key Topics Discussed The Art of Listening to Inner Voices

• Distinguishing between inspiration and other internal chatter
• The importance of waiting and discernment in creative and healing processes
• How meditation creates space to reassess and clarify authentic inspiration

Trusting Your Inner Compass

• Why external validation (money, success) cannot replace inner knowing
• The courage to follow your heart despite societal pressures
• Self-cultivation as the ultimate measure of success

Reclaiming Your Attention

• How society has co-opted our natural capacity for attention
• The difference between being told what to focus on versus choosing your focus
• Practical steps to redirect attention from consumption to creation

Everyone is an Artist

• Why 99% of people have had their natural creativity "beaten out of them"
• The myth of talent versus the reality of daily practice
• Starting small: simple tools like pencil and paper, humming, or describing experiences

The Progression of Practice

• Why beginners should expect and embrace being "no good" initially
• The power of daily practice and incremental improvement
• Using constraints and limitations to stimulate creativity

Art as Healing

• How both artist and audience are transformed through creative expression
• The gift of art as a form of healing exchange
• Creating "messages in bottles" for future generations

The Spiritual Dimension of Art

• Art as a response to the world and inner experience
• The importance of not pandering to audiences
• How authentic expression naturally carries spiritual essence

Memorable Quotes

On Trusting Your Heart:

"If you trust your heart, if your heart tells you this is where you need to go, then that's what you need to follow. Because no external rewards and no external rejection is going to be a guide for what you need to do in life."

On Getting Started:

"It's as simple as picking up a pencil and a piece of paper. It's as simple as humming something. It's as simple as saying, this just happened to me. How do I describe it?"

On Attention:

"We are completely capable of attention, but attention has been co-opted by our society. We have not been allowed to say we deserve attention for our own purposes."

On Defining Art:

"Art is a response to the world. And from that, other people can see that shape [and] think about how they might want to respond to the world."

Practical Takeaways

1. Start a Daily Practice: Get a sketchbook and write or draw in it every day, even if it's "crap"
2. Examine Your Screen Time: Notice how much attention you give to others' content versus your own creative expression
3. Embrace Beginner's Mind: Allow yourself to be "no good" initially and focus on the process, not the outcome
4. Set Constraints: Use limitations to spark creativity (small canvases, limited time, simple materials)
5. Create Space for Reflection: Spend time looking at and contemplating your work, not just producing it

Resources Mentioned

• AlchemyLearningCenter.com - Hosts' website with courses and resources
• New Book: "Cultivating the Thirteen Ghost Points" by the hosts
• The intersection of Daoist philosophy and creative practice
• The concept of the Nine Palaces and the Creativity/Children Palace

About the Guest

Deng Ming-Dao is an author, artist, and teacher. He is the author of: 365 Tao; Chronicles of Tao; Scholar Warrior; Everyday Tao; The Lunar Tao; The Living I Ching; Zen: The Art of Modern Eastern Cooking; and The Wisdom of the Tao, Every Journey Begins With a Single Step, and The Way of Heart and Beauty.

His books have been translated into a variety of European and Asian languages. 

Deng Ming-Dao has trained in Chinese martial arts since 1975. His teachers have come from Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and two Taoist mountains, Huashan and Wudangshan. He has been most involved with the internal systems of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan, and he has given many workshops to introduce Chinese martial arts and Taoist wellness techniques.

Episode Themes

• Creativity as Spiritual Practice
• Healing Through Art
• Attention as Sacred Resource
• Daily Practice as Transformation
• Authentic Expression vs. Commercial Art

Art as Self-Cultivation: A Conversation with Deng Ming-Dao

Guest: Deng Ming-Dao (Daoist philosopher, author, and artist)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Deng Ming-Dao, esteemed author of the Wandering Taoist and several other Daoist-based books—(including our favs Spiritual Warrior and 365 Tao), joins Leta and Jaye as they have an inspiring conversation together. This episode explores the concept of how art isn’t separate from self-cultivation—it is self-cultivation. Ming-Dao dives into what it means to self-cultivate and how creating art, practicing Tai Chi, or even making mistakes can be the fire that transforms us.

From poetry to Tai Chi to painting—everything becomes part of the Alchemical process of becoming our authentic selves. If you’ve ever wondered whether your creative life is as important as a spiritual practice—this podcast is for you.

Key Topics Discussed Self-Cultivation as Repair

• The Chinese concept of self-cultivation literally means "repair"
• How life and socialization tear us down and obscure our natural self
• Why Daoists believe our natural self is already perfect
• The parallel between health in Chinese Medicine and spiritual wellness

Art as Personal Transformation

• Why every piece of art changes the artist who creates it
• The continuous process of learning through creating
• How mistakes in the studio become opportunities for growth
• The discipline and perseverance required for artistic practice

Qi and Artistic Expression

• The ancient Chinese concept of "lively movement and qi resonance" in art
• How an artist's qi becomes visible in their work (especially calligraphy)
• The difference between original energy and reproduced forms
• Art as alignment with the energy of the universe

Tai Chi as Art Form

• How Tai Chi transforms martial violence into self-cultivation
• The role of qi circulation in both Tai Chi and artistic practice
• Why practitioners from the same school look different (personal infusion)
• The connection between movement, medicine, and creativity

Expression as Human Nature

• Why every human being gives testament to their experience on earth
• The role of creative expression in reconciling individuality with the collective
• Cave paintings as evidence of humanity's innate creative impulse
• How great artists help us put overwhelming feelings into form

The Challenge of Daily Practice

• Why significant achievement requires daily commitment
• Breaking free from society's consumer mentality
• The difference between external motivation and internal necessity
• Understanding practice as the ultimate gift to yourself

Authentic Inspiration and Inner Voices

• How to distinguish between authentic inspiration and other mental chatter
• The reality of multiple "voices" within ourselves
• Why inspiration is just the beginning, not the end
• The role of problem-solving and technical skill in bringing ideas to form

Memorable Quotes

On Self-Cultivation:

"Self-cultivation is about recovering from those problems and getting back to your natural self. The Daoists feel that your natural self is perfect."

On Daily Practice:

"You're not doing this for a job, you are not doing this for a certificate. You're not doing this to be famous. You are doing this for yourself, and until you understand that, it's always going to be difficult."

On Consumer Culture:

"We have been so warped by our society that our only role is to be a customer... We need to get away from this kind of materialism and return to ourselves."

On Artistic Inspiration:

"Just because you get inspired is not the end of it. It's just the start of it... The voice is an idea. It's not a form. Your job as an artist is to make it form."

On Expression:

"Every human being has to work to live... But is that all you have to do? Everybody gives testament to their experience on this planet."

Practical Takeaways

1. Understand Art as Repair: View creative practice as healing and recovery of your natural self
2. Commit to Daily Practice: Recognize that significant growth requires consistent daily commitment
3. Practice for Yourself: Do creative work for your own development, not external validation
4. Embrace Qi in Your Work: Align your creative practice with life energy and universal flow
5. Learn to Distinguish Voices: Develop the ability to recognize authentic inspiration through experience
6. Accept the Problem-Solving Process: Understand that turning inspiration into form requires technical skill and perseverance

Resources Mentioned

• AlchemyLearningCenter.com - Hosts' website with courses and resources
• New Book: "Cultivating the Thirteen Ghost Points" by the hosts
• 365 Tao: Daily Meditations - Ming-Dao's daily practice book
• The Wandering Taoist - Available as audiobook
• Scholar Warrior - Currently being read by the hosts
• Hua Shan and Wudang Shan - Traditional Daoist mountain lineages

About the Guest

Deng Ming-Dao is a Chinese American author, artist, philosopher, teacher and martial artist. He is the author of eight books, including 365 Tao, Everyday Tao, Scholar Warrior, and Chronicles of Tao. His books have been translated into fifteen languages.

Background & Training: He studied qigong, philosophy, meditation, and internal martial arts with Taoist master Kwan Saihung for thirteen years, and with two other masters before that. From a young age, he studied Taoist internal arts such as Qigong and Kung-Fu.

Artistic Career: He is an award-winning graphic designer and fine artist whose work is in several collections, including those of the Brooklyn Museum and the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Currently transitioning into retirement, he paints daily and continues his writing practice, focusing on landscape paintings that combine Asian ink and watercolor techniques.

Episode Themes

• Art as Spiritual Practice
• Self-Cultivation vs. Socialization
• Daily Practice as Transformation
• Qi and Creative Expression
• Authentic vs. Consumer Living
• The Artist's Journey of Discovery

What's Coming Next

This conversation continues in Episode 144, Part 2, where the discussion deepens into topics of healing through art, the role of artists in society, and practical guidance for reclaiming creativity in daily life.

This episode is essential listening for anyone who has ever questioned whether their creative pursuits "count" as spiritual work. Ming-Dao's insights reveal that art isn't separate from the spiritual path—it may be one of the most direct routes to recovering our authentic nature.

In this episode, Jaye and Leta invite you to take a little time out — not in a punishment sort of way, but in a take-a-step-back-and-breathe kind of way. We’re kicking off a brand-new five-part series on the Alchemy, Five Elements & Overwhelm, starting with Wood — the Element of Hope, Renewal, and of Inspired Action.

What We Talk About:

• Why overwhelm is sometimes the new normal — and why is/isn't it OK 

• What ancient Daoist Alchemists did during times of political chaos (hint: it involves retreats, mountains, and silence)

• Why wind represents change in Chinese Medicine — and how to work with it instead of being blown away

• Wood Element traits under pressure: survival mode, strategy overload, and full-on gorilla mode

• The concept of “Opti-mystic” — embracing the mystic and the optimistic during chaotic times

• Practical advice for Wood types (and everyone with Wood in their chart, which is… everyone) on how to re-center, breathe, and find meaning in challenge

• A sneak peek into how the other elements (Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water) handle overwhelm — next up: Fire and the fear of losing love

00:25 Dealing with Overwhelm in Today's World 04:31 Embracing Change and Technological Advances 12:48 Navigating Overwhelm with Elemental Energies 13:13 Understanding Yourself in Chaotic Times 13:53 The Essence of Wood Energy 14:27 Survival Mode and Wood People 15:52 Strategies for Wood People 18:59 Embracing Challenges Positively

Could ancient stones be the missing link in your modern-day transformation?

In this episode, Jaye and Leta explore the mysterious—yet surprisingly practical—world of Alchemy Stone Medicine. We're talking crystals, gemstones, and minerals, and how these ancient Earth allies can support healing, self-cultivation, and real energetic change.

From Five Element colors to sacred shapes to the way stones are formed deep within the Earth, you’ll discover that stones have personalities—just like humans. This episode is all about building relationships with stones as transformational partners, not just keeping them around as pretty shelf candy.

Whether you’re brand new to stone medicine or already knee-deep in crystal clusters, you’ll leave with fresh insights, a few laughs, and maybe a new favorite rock to carry in your pocket.

Stone Medicine is an ancient healing modality rooted in Chinese medicine. In this conversation with Stone Medicine practitioner, Mikhael Oskarsson, we delve into the methods and philosophies of Stone Medicine, emphasizing its transformational potential and how it can enhance self-cultivation practices.

Practical Applications of Stone Medicine

Stone medicine isn't just theoretical—it's incredibly practical. In this conversation, Jaye, Mikhael and Leta explore various ways to incorporate stone medicine into daily life:

• Jewelry and Talismans: Wearing stones as jewelry offers a constant energetic reminder and support, aligning with personal intentions and goals.

• Grids and Elixirs: Creating stone grids around spaces or using stones in elixirs (vibrationally potent water) can enhance environments and personal energy fields.

• Feng Shui and Placements: Stones can be strategically placed in homes to influence energy flow, attract positivity, and repel negativity or stale energy.

Connecting with Stones

Building a vibrational, personal relationship with stones is important to maximizing their healing benefits. When you enter into the world of Stone Medicine, it's an invitation to explore and discover which stones you are naturally attract to. Holding and connecting with these stones helps in developing an intimate understanding of Stone Medicine energies and how stones can support your journey. This will help you identify your allies as a Stone Medicine practitioner.

If you want to learn more about Alchemy Stone Medicine, join us for an upcoming free Alchemy Stone Medicine webinar on March 31st, 2025. This webinar will talk about Alchemy Stone Medicine in our Modern world and introduce our new 12-week immersive certification program for Alchemy Stone Medicine for Self-Cultivation. 

In our final episode on the Thirteen Ghost Points, we discuss how they serve as metaphors for past traumas, events, or aspects of ourselves that haunt us. The journey through these themes is all about confronting these ghosts and working through them to cultivate a deeper sense of self.

This episode addresses your ability to guide your own destiny and connect with your higher self. It's about asking yourself the tough questions: Are you living by your own rules? Are you fulfilling your true purpose?

Exploring Ghost Official and Ghost Seal

In this episode, we delve into two significant Ghost Points: Ghost Official and Ghost Seal.

• Ghost Official: This is about being in charge of your destiny. It asks us to examine whether we are living under our own life's rules or if we are being oppressed by the expectations and control of others. The key takeaway here is the freedom to fulfill your own will and walk your own path.

• Ghost Seal: This point speaks to the core essence of who you are, predating even this lifetime. It challenges us to connect with our authentic self, beyond labels and roles society gives us. Who were you before life defined you as an occupation, a familial role, or social identity?

Unfinished Business and a Life of Completion

A life with no unfinished business is one that aligns with your core purposes and values, bringing the idea of completing your life's journey with a sense of fulfillment. By working through these themes, you can clear past burdens, enabling you to fully realize and embody your authentic self.

Join the Alchemical Journey

Our exploration of the 13 Ghost Points ties in seamlessly with our upcoming book, Cultivating the Thirteen Ghost Points. If you want more information about the book, you can sign up to receive updates about the book launch and more at AlchemyLearningCenter.com.

We also invite you to join us for our upcoming live events. We’re hosting a webinar on March 31st, 2025 about Alchemy and Stone Medicine, an ancient Chinese healing modality, at the end of March. This event promises to be as enlightening as our podcast discussions.

00:43 Engaging with Your Ghosts 01:06 Deep Dive into the Last Two Points 01:38 Self-cultivation and the New Book 03:24 Introduction to Stone Medicine 03:48 Personal Connection with Stones 05:51 Exploring Ghost Official 06:51 Understanding Will Blocks 07:29 Living by Your Own Rules 08:41 Exploring Ghost Seal

In this episode, we discuss the next Ghost Points themes surrounding intimacy with yourself and the safest people in your life as well as releasing the guilt and shame you may be carrying. 

Ghost Hall: Embracing Intimacy with Yourself and Others

Intimacy, whether with yourself or others, often involves vulnerability and trust. When we've been betrayed or taught to doubt ourselves, we often feel uncomfortable and afraid to expose our inner selves. Cultivating intimacy starts with introspection and building trust within yourself first.

Ghost Hall, is a metaphor for a private sanctuary within you- a small, intimate chamber next to your heart. You decide who is safe enough to be allowed into that intimate space. Intimacy is about trusting yourself to make the decision as to who to let in so that you can reclaim your power and achieve a deeper sense of connection with others.

Ghost Hidden: The Journey Through Shame and Guilt

Shame and guilt can be significant barriers to achieving innocence and self-forgiveness. Forgiveness, particularly of yourself, allows for healing and can guide you back to your original state of innocence. The theme of Ghost Hidden is about embracing the idea that freedom and innocence are innate rights, available to everyone willing to undertake this journey of self-discovery.

00:52 Deep Dive into Intimacy and Innocence 01:19 Exploring Ghost Hall and Ghost Hidden 01:31 The Importance of Self-Cultivation and Awareness 05:34 Understanding Ghost Hall 08:33 The Concept of Intimacy with Yourself 10:17 Challenges of Vulnerability and Trust 12:28 Introduction to Ghost Hidden 12:53 Dealing with Shame and Guilt 13:58 Advanced Forgiveness and Innocence 16:28 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Links

Advanced Forgiveness Meditation 

Silly Walks

 

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Click here to get more information on the Inspired Action podcast and the Five Element Fridays podcast.

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Through the Mystery Gate book

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In this episode, we consider the realm of fields of energy in our healing journeys. This interview Keith Parker from Field Dynamics is a fascinating journey through the realms of energy fields, healing, and the intricate connection between mind, body, and spirit.

Keith elaborates on how energy fields are often described in various cultures and spiritual traditions as chi, prana, or aura, encapsulating electromagnetic, bioelectrical, and informational domains. 

Join us for this thought-provoking conversation and uncover the intricate pathways that lead to a deeper connection with our inner healing potential. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or a curious seeker, this episode explores the boundless possibilities of energy fields in enhancing healing.

00:31 Exploring the Heart's Energy Field 01:54 The Intersection of Science and Alchemy 03:44 The Power of Thoughts and Emotions 06:11 Introducing Keith Parker 07:37 Understanding Energy Fields 19:46 The Science Behind Energy Fields 32:21 Quantum Entanglement and Modern Science 33:49 The Holographic Principle and Reality 35:41 Fractals and the Nature of the Universe 39:24 Mind, Body, and Spirit: A Unified Perspective 43:03 The Heart's Role in Inner Transformation 49:01 Meditation and Self-Cultivation

This episode focuses on two themes: Ghost Market and Ghost Cave.

Ghost Market: Honoring Your Gifts

How do you present yourself to the world? Are you offering your unique gifts to those who most need them? Or are you hiding them away? Ghost Market is a metaphor for your unique talents. Can you connect with those who need your gifts? What is your "elevator pitch" for your skills and strengths?

Ghost Cave: Journey into the Heart

At the core of the Ghost points lies the Ghost Cave, which represents the heart's immaterial space—the essence of who you truly are. Heart pains, stemming from limitations and disappointments, often clutter this space. Can you release these burdens to free the heart and allow it to flourish authentically?

00:41 Understanding the Ghost Points 02:24 Ghost Market and Ghost Cave 04:54 The Concept of the Heart 06:20 Exploring the Ghost Market 17:14 Delving into the Ghost Cave

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Click here to get more information on the Inspired Action podcast and the Five Element Fridays podcast.

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Through the Mystery Gate book

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😴 Look Under The Covers:  Ghost Points for Better Sleep and Deeper Self Awareness 🥱

In this podcast episode, we discuss the mysteries of the Ghost Pillow and Ghost Bed points from Chinese Medicine, guiding you through self cultivational practices to perhaps uncover your unconscious beliefs and obsessive thoughts that can disrupt sleep. This episode is not just a conversation, but an invitation to become aware of your patterns, release what no longer serves you, and step into a life of greater authenticity and peace.

Whether it's through meditation, contemplation, or simply being more vigilant with your thoughts, this episode offers practical tips and empowering insights to transform hidden aspects of yourself that may be affecting your sleep at night. Join us for our continued podcast journey through the Thirteen Ghost points and your potential path to realized self-awareness and living the life you truly want will appear.

  00:40 Exploring Ghost Pillow and Ghost Bed 01:09 Symbolism of Ghost Points 01:16 Deep Thoughts and Feelings 05:40 Understanding Unconscious Beliefs 06:11 Role of the Heart Protector 06:58 Repressing Emotions in Chinese Medicine 10:24 Meditation and Contemplation Techniques 10:54 Working with Unconscious Beliefs 13:33 Ghost Pillow: Support and Safety 17:23 Ghost Bed: Obsessive Thoughts 19:34 Homework and Practical Tips 22:09 Recap and Final Thoughts

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Click here to get more information on the Inspired Action podcast and the Five Element Fridays podcast.

Visit the Alchemy Learning Center Website:

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Through the Mystery Gate book

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