Integrating Presence

Renowned meditation teacher and author Richard Shankman (co-founder of the Sati Center and guiding teacher at Metta Dharma Foundation) shares insights from over 50 years of practice and 35 years of teaching, diving into the nuances of samatha, samadhi, jhanas, and insight. We explore why meditation is about honoring the process rather than chasing rigid attainments, balancing our natural tendencies as “investigators” versus “marinators,” navigating the role of external vs. inner teachers, moving beyond dogmatic “jhana wars,” and his recent explorations combining traditional retreat environments with medicine work.

[Disclaimer: Just because I engaged the topic of psychedelics here does not mean I’ve taken an ultimate stand on them one way or another. While I’m open to reconsidering and adjustments my current view is that these can be very powerful and (thus) unnecessary for how (my) practice is going and my own time for experimenting with them seems behind me. That said I can’t speak for anyone else with these substances other than it seems one would be wise (for starters) to do plenty of research before consideration; find the proper time, place and facilitation and integration processes]

Connect with Richard Shankman: 

• https://richardshankman.org

• Metta Dharma Foundation: https://mettadharma.org

• Richard’s Samadhi and Jhana Meditation Course mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGvhYLzi4ktIIGZcVNKT6IMdFRpxQOeAw

Chapters

Shorts for / from this episode:

Our past conversation: https://integratingpresence.com/2025/11/02/breath-light-the-inner-teacher-and-the-vastness-of-samadhi-anapanasati-series-with-richard-shankman/

Ai slightly cleaned up transcript:

Chapter 1: Introduction & Richard Shankman’s New Course

Hey Wholeness, welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and I’m rejoined by Richard Shankman. Richard, how’s it going today?

I’m well and I’m happy to be with you again. Nice to see you again.

Likewise. This definitely makes my day today for sure. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you again because I consider myself maybe a little bit of a meditation nerd and like to talk shop when I can, you know. And yeah, we covered a little bit of ground in our last conversation. I’ll link to that. But so I guess what have you been up to since we talked to you last time? I know you have a course out that I got a chance to check out a little bit and I found it really helpful.

Yeah. Well, that is something that I’ve done. Should I say just a little about it, or—?

Yeah, yeah.

What I want, you know I’ve done, well as you know, the world of meditation is a big world. And it’s taught and practiced—well, first of all, we don’t even all have the same goals, so that’s—and of course that’s a whole big topic because in the dharma, or you could say the Buddhist world, depending on your Buddhist tradition, they may have—what the tradition offers is different goals and it’s not one way. And then how we relate to those goals is going to vary for all of us.

So, and then how we practice can unfold, as you know, on its own in different ways, or we can choose to also steer how the practice—and this is a whole interesting conversation that’s actually I think may have happened since I spoke with you, but I’ve had some experiences working with some students where things were unfolding in certain ways that I thought were quite wonderful, and other teachers were saying, “No, no, no, it’s not supposed to be that”. So, you know, it’s a big world, and then on top of that, just so many ways that meditation practice itself is taught.

So what I wanted to do is—over the years, you know, I’ve taught and put some things out there, but I wanted to try to pull together in an accessible way just the way I wanted to offer. And so I created this video course, and it’s these short little—they’re like five to eight or ten-minute little sections. There’s 27 pieces, so it’s a lot.

And on one part, one part is meditation instructions themselves, from—I’m not getting—I could talk about exactly the style I’m teaching in, but it goes from beginning all the way to really jhana and beyond. So, that’s a whole thing—what do you mean by beyond jhana? And then there’s a second stream that’s interwoven, which is teachings and discussions on the topic of samadhi and jhana. So there’s kind of the teachings and the practice. So I put this together, and that was kind of the motivation of wanting to put it together, and it was really everything I know to do that I consider to be a full and complete—the way I would teach. So that was what it was.

Very good. It’s funny that now I’ve switched to more of a systematic practice and more of the Pa-Auk lineage, but before that, I’d just naturally skip around, and that’s what I did through your course because I didn’t—for whatever reason, I didn’t get to go through it from start to finish. But from what I could tell, what I honed in on, you’re very broad-ranging and diplomatic, right? You show many, many doors, and you don’t say you have to go through this door in this way, you know. You cover a lot of ground and you offer many opportunities about this vast world of samatha practice and samadhi, and how it relates to insight, too. So I really appreciate this kind of diplomatic approach.

Chapter 2: An Inclusive, Non-Dogmatic Approach to Meditation

Well, you know, it’s interesting you phrase—use that word, “diplomatic.” I’ve heard that a lot, or you know, “you’re so inclusive”. And the thing is, I’m not just being kind of a nice guy about it. One of the things I’ve just learned, you know, I’ve been practicing myself for gosh, like 50, 55 years, 56 years—that’s a long time—and I’ve been teaching for probably 35 years. So just—I’m just saying based on that, fortunately I got over the delusion I had early on, of you know, when I was young and knew the least, I was the most opinionated. And I’ve really come to see, it’s—you know, we say, “Oh, it’s not one way,” but it’s really not one way.

And so I do feel like, you know, I’m associated—I get identified as a samadhi and jhana person, and that’s—I understand that from my books and all of that, and I do—there’s no question of the power and the value of that, but—and so when I teach, I am teaching in a way where we do want to move in the direction of deepening all of these wholesome qualities: the samadhi side for sure, it’s so beneficial, and the insight, and the mindfulness, and the heart qualities, and all of these things. No question about it, we want to just—but I’ve really—I have to say, so we want to do—and there are two things.

One is how you do that. Look, I understand teachers who have—I don’t mean this disparagingly in any way—they have what I would call a “one-size-fits-all.” If you want to practice with this teacher, this is what you do. You do this technique. You know, they’re just techniques—we don’t want to make a big deal about it—but and that’s fine because they’re just offering their way, and it clearly worked well for them or they wouldn’t be teaching in that way.

And then you’ll go to another teacher, and it’s almost the opposite, and it’s got to be this other way, and it obviously worked well for them or they wouldn’t be teaching it. So that shows us that it’s a diversity, and the important thing is finding the way that makes the practice—I just, because I know you practice with Pa-Auk, I’ve known personally people who’ve gone—I know somebody who spent two years in the monastery or this retreat center with Pa-Auk and said, “Oh, I never got jhana”. They were getting very powerful concentration, it just didn’t match his particular way. So, and that’s fine.

So, what I’ve come to see is that what’s important is finding the practice that resonates, and that—and I know other teachers may disagree, that’s fine—but that makes it come alive the most. And then we follow that, and we have choice points to either let it reveal itself as it deepens and we follow that, or we may want to steer it in different ways, and there’s ways to do that.

So the way I teach in my course is: how do we help people find what’s the practice—even if you don’t even know, start off with one that just sort of really will catch for you, and it’s like, okay, it’s happened and this is really opening. And then as it’s unfolding, we want to let the present moment teach us, because it’ll reveal, and depending on what’s happening, that informs what to do next, as long as you kind of have an idea of where you’re trying to aim, what’s really going to get us there.

So, I’ve—and I’ll just add one more piece. I’ll even back it up further and—

Chapter 3: Process Over Attainment: Practicing Beyond Goals

—I may be kind of really kind of an outlier in what I’m about to say. I’m hesitant here, but I’m just going to go ahead and say it. I would say all of these qualities we’re developing—the insight, the samadhi, the jhana, and all that—are both a really huge, big deal, important, and somehow at the same time, they’re of no importance whatsoever.

And what I mean by that is I really feel that it’s not about what you attain, it’s just being in the process itself—that the doing of it is the practice. What you get or don’t get—it’s just showing up, engaging, and just working the best you can. Even if nothing—I mean, it’s not like nothing’s ever going to happen. Even if nothing happened, just that you doing it is the full-blast practice. It’s really—and that may be different than somebody who’s saying, “No, no, no, you got to get jhana” or whatever.

It’s a really good reminder, too, that, you know, it’s a spiritual cliche almost to say it’s about the journey and not the destination, but it really is. It really is, you know? And that’s what we have to keep reminding—especially, I think, our Western society where we’re so goal-oriented, you know, and it has to pay off or show results right away, and has to be a clearly defined goal and clearly defined progress. You know, that’s all great and stuff, but the main thing is doing the practice, and like, the process and the journey is really important and not losing sight of that.

Yeah. One thing you said is that—I hope we can get the best of both. As a matter of fact, I think—I’m pretty sure in my course, one of the things I say in the intro to the meditation, I say, “You know, we’re sort of given this advice of sort of two things that seem like they’re opposite,” because you know, you hear these teachers that’ll say we’re not trying to get anywhere or be—and it’s like, well, wait a minute. Aren’t we on a path? Of course we’re trying to get somewhere. And so, we’re trying to do both. We’re trying to get somewhere for sure, no question about it. And the way we do that is—that’s the getting nowhere part—is just being here in the present moment. So if we can bring the best of both, then we still can of course move along a path, of course deepen these qualities, but just also, what’s happening in the present moment? How do we work with that? So I mean, to me, that’s the sweet spot.

And you also speak to another thing here about being comfortable with—

Chapter 4: The Paradox of Aiming vs. Just Being Present

—paradox, because as we do this work—and a lot of spiritual work—we’ll be confronted with these paradoxical things, right? Like, okay, there is no goal, but yes, we need to have a goal, and it’s just—it seems like it’s paradox upon paradox, and being comfortable with that and working with that, and doing that or not resolving, but just kind of holding both of these things together at once.

And for instance, you mentioned kind of this inner teacher, and I—some people might call that intuition, and I just—from my experience, just practicing more, not everybody, but a lot of people, their intuition starts to become developed and becomes more online. So again, it’s another maybe paradoxical thing of when to know that your intuition is sufficient and the inner teacher is online, and when to seek and use an external teacher. You know, for years I thought, “Oh no, I just—that’s too awkward. I don’t know where to start with taking on an external teacher.” But—

Chapter 5: Cultivating the Inner Teacher vs. Seeking Guidance

—now actually, I’ve found so much great benefit in taking on a teacher more formally. And some monastics in some traditions, they don’t really take on lay students, so people are left with lay teachers—different styles.

So yeah, balance.

So yeah, exactly. So how would you kind of advise, or what would you have to say about both developing this inner teacher and intuition, along with taking on an external teacher, too?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, for both of those, I think—look, we’re always following our—let me just back up here. Some of us have—you know, there can be a downside of listening to our own inner teacher, because we can’t see our own blind spots. So there are things where we think we’re following whatever, and it may end us up in places that probably, maybe didn’t serve us the best, and maybe some external guidance could have. So we’re always—every one of us is always following our own sense.

If you’re choosing not to listen to yourself and just follow a teacher, you’re still making that choice. If you have a strong sense of something and you’re choosing to follow that if someone’s guiding you in a different direction, or you’re not listening to that and going your own way. So whether we get external teachers or not, whether we follow ourselves, we’re all making our best—that’s all anybody is ever doing. There’s nothing else. Everybody, whether they’re aware of it or not, is following their own best choice.

So we do the best we can, all right? And that’s all we can do, and we’re going to bump up against—but that’s part of the learning if we can stay attuned and let life—or you could say, let the—this sounds like a cliche, but let the present moment teach us. And we’ll forget, and sometimes we don’t know, “What is the present moment teaching us? Gee, I don’t know.” That’s all right, we make some choice. You take a step, we get feedback—that’s the learning tools of the earth: action, reaction, and then doing the best we can.

And if we feel totally lost, do we fumble through on our own, do we look for a teacher? I think probably for most of us, a combination in some way: whether it’s formal with a teacher, or you just read their book, or listening to talks, or whatever—however you relate, along with just letting your own inner guidance reveal itself to you. Some combination of that is—whatever balance of that is for all of us.

And look, some people, they know they just don’t relate to teachers at all. Some on the other end of the spectrum are just like, they’re all in, and “I’ve just really given myself over,” and there could be a power there. That has its shadow side, too, because sometimes, you know, you give yourself all over, and you end up not listening to yourself. So we kind of—I don’t want to say fumble through, but we work through, and we need—this is why we need to be not hard on ourselves, to know we’re all sincere and we’re trying to find our way the best we can.

So that’s what I would say. And if you’re drawn to a teacher, I say that’s the thing to listen to. Follow that, because you’re drawn to it. And then, you know, you can put it out there, like, some teachers—and if they don’t want to work with you, I mean, they’ll tell you; it’s not personal or whatever, so we find the way.

Having said that, I do think there is some amazing power of—I talk about the inner teacher or your inner—it’s not an egotistic knowing, but a deeper knowing, if you will, or your inner guidance, or the inner way reveals itself. And more and more, whether you realize it or not, that does come more alive for everyone, and we learn to kind of know, and then we rely on—it’s not like nobody can ever teach us anything. We don’t want to get into hubris like, “Oh no, I know”. But so for sure that’s true, and we need external guidance less and less because we get more experience, we’ve learned, and we kind of know. And at some point, we really don’t need any teachers—you just don’t, you know? And then us teachers are out of business, right? That’s what they say about good therapists, too, right? If they’re really doing their job, they’d put themselves out of business, I guess. But everybody would be—that’s the goal: put yourself out of business.

Of course, and then it all has to be seen and known for each wise one for themselves, right? And that’s the advice the Buddha gave as well. And you know, it speaks to—I think, hopefully this isn’t too cliche or stereotypical, or casting broad nets here, but from what little I’ve interacted with like Asian and Western cultures, it seems like Asian cultures are—they’re kind of more willing, in I don’t know about obedient, but like, the teacher tells them to do something, they do it, you know? Where I mean, I don’t need—either “I don’t need a teacher,” or “I’m too good for that,” or “What’s the point?” I don’t know, I’m just thinking cliches here, but you know what I mean?

And this also feeds into—I think more importantly, though, each way can learn from each other in a way, you know, with more independence, but also more discipline and trust, and then eventually trusting ourselves, or you know, so all that. External trust, internal trust, and pointing out blind spots, all that. But also when, you know, I’ve been told that—

Chapter 6: Embodied Awareness vs. Transcending the Body

—Westerners, you know, where’s their mind? People might point to their head, but in Asia, I hear more towards the heart. And this, you know—so this speaks to, I think, when you’re talking about the samatha practice about full-body awareness and things like that, that you know, we’re so oriented in the West, I think, to view our mind in our head, and even neuroscience, you know, some of them equate it with the physical brain. And that’s pretty much—but like even in Abhidhamma—and maybe we don’t need to go there so much—but they talk about consciousness coming from like a materiality in the heart.

So, I mean, I don’t know if there’s a bridge or a connection there, too, but—and where we start with this orientation as well, and how we perceive this and bridge this. Is there anything to say around this?

You know, I don’t know if I’m the best person to speak—I mean, I hear everything you’re saying, yes, and I totally hear all of that. And so, what’s coming up for me is the way you’re talking about how, you know, not getting too in the head, and how we open up in all ways of experientially more somatic, and I think that’s important and good. And probably—I’m not sure what I’m about to say, but my sense is, for some of us, that whole way that you just articulated very nicely is probably very important and helpful to hold those kinds of—and reflect, and kind of just get more awareness around places that don’t serve us as well, and how that might open us up in whole other ways. So we want to include that way you’re just talking about.

Of course, I tend not to think about that so much. I just have a whole another way that I view and talk about and relate to life, existence, dharma, enlightenment, liberation, everything, in just a different way. So I haven’t really—I’m probably not the best person to tease that apart.

Let’s put it in this sense, because in your course, you talk about like, at some point you might—there’s about an embodied attention, right? Or then, but then there’s also a route where it can kind of let go of the body, and it can be more mind-based, or like things of light and not so embodied.

Yes, so yeah. And what’s interesting with this kasina practice for me, with this earth kasina—should I put this—sometimes the kasina will expand so much that it encompasses the body. So it’s kind of like a both/and, or neither/nor, where the body is kind of included in some sense, but it’s almost like merged with the kasina object internally that it’s not really—it’s relevant and it’s not at the same time. I don’t know how to put this, you know what I mean? So it includes the body, but goes beyond the body.

Yeah. Well, but that’s interesting. So yeah.

So the way you’re speaking, and you’re bringing—your practice happens to be around kasinas, so you’re working with that. But I think for any way you work, it can be—well, what I’m about to say is a little artificial way of speaking, but just as a way of speaking, there can be a way where you sort of—you kind of said this experientially—like the sense of the body is dropped away. You kind of go beyond the body or something, and it can go into purely—call them mental realms, spiritual realms—whatever the experience is, and any connection with what we call the body is sort of gone.

And that’s one way, and then there’s another way in which it’s sort of through the body, where it’s very embodied, but the experience of—actually, this is similar to what you’d find in just the traditional in the Pali jhana definitions, where you get into the deeper jhanas and really the experience of the body is just pure light, pure consciousness. It’s still body, but then the sense that the body can dissolve into what? Pure vibration, pure light, and through there it kind of transcends the body. So one leaves the body, and one goes through the body.

And you know, this is another—this is a great example of, on its own, if you didn’t—assuming people had a practice that helps them deepen their samadhi, whatever that is, it was working for them—if nobody told them anything and they stayed with it, it would on its own go in one of these two directions, and you could steer it in the other direction if you know when and how to do it. So that’s where—that’s a whole another thing, is like if you take it too far, sometimes you have to back out to be able to steer it, but you can steer it.

So you have a lot of choice points, and different teachers will, you know, be very clear that you need—which, fine, I’m not criticizing anyone, but they’ll say, “No, no, you got to…” like Pa-Auk, for example. He’s getting into—I don’t—”mental” is not the right word, but his sense of this Pali word kaya, which means “body” in the suttas, it was clearly talking about the physical body, but in the Visuddhimagga, they’ve changed it to mean the quote “mental body” unquote. So that’s fine, it’s just a different system.

So in there, you’re going into the mental body; in the suttas, you’re going through—I know what I just said is controversial, because the Visuddhimagga people would say, “No, no, no, it’s…” but that’s fine. So, you know, we have these different ways: both how it goes on its own, and then how you may choose to steer it. And for me personally, as I said before, it’s all good. It doesn’t matter. You’re going to be just as enlightened or unenlightened, just as liberated as unliberated if you go one way or the other. It’s not like there’s a magic way that’s better. It’s just like, do those things and see how it goes.

Chapter 7: Moving Beyond “Jhana Wars” & Lineage Dogma

And I totally agree, too. Instead of getting into “Jhana Wars,” I’m like, there’s more benefit to be inclusive and find the common ground, and look at the pros and cons of each way, and to find the commonalities, too.

So, anytime someone’s in a jhana war—you didn’t ask my opinion, but I think I’ll offer it—just get out of there. I mean, not you personally, but I’m speaking to whoever might be listening. It’s just like, let them have it, and they’ll have their opinions; that’s fine. I’m not too—you know me, I won’t very often say people are right or wrong; they’re just offering their way. But one way that they’re wrong is if they just say, “This is the way it is”. It’s just not.

And a lot of times you get these young—what, this monkey practicing what, 10 or 20 years? They’re not even warmed up yet, you know? What, you’ve been practicing 20 years and everything, you’re just a young kid telling us how it is? It’s just not true. I know in my 20s, I knew everything, you know?

Me too. It’s a disease.

Yeah, yeah, it is something. So, you know, I would just say the one exception is if they actually somehow happen to be 100% right. Well, then that’s something else. But, you know, like the historical Buddha said, “I never claimed this until I was absolutely 100% sure,” but we’re so far from that. So yeah, I would definitely agree. I haven’t experienced these like “wars,” but you know, it’s kind of just a term these days.

Excuse me. It was like that back in the day, you know, in the ’70s and ’80s and everything. It was, you know, because people didn’t know. A lot of the scene I’m not connected in, so I don’t really know these days, but I have a sense that people are—they may be very clear about, “This is my way,” but I think as far as right or wrong, I don’t know if you hear that so much. I don’t know in Asia, but here at least in the West, not so much.

It’s funny, I was just talking to a guy earlier today. He’s a Vajrayana practitioner, Tibetan practitioner, and he wants to bring more of this debate, you know, where the Tibetan monks will go like that in front of—you know, and just have—I’m not really interested in arguing, but just kind of more discussions to try to arrive at more and more helpful things. I thought that was an interesting thing.

It could be fun. Maybe that’s—looks like when they’re doing it, it looks whether it does you any good or not, I can’t say, because you got to be careful having opinions about any tradition from someone like me outside the tradition. So I don’t have a real opinion, but you know, it looks like they’re just having fun, you know, and whatever.

I don’t really know either. Yeah, I just thought it was an interesting idea. I don’t have an opinion on it either, really.

Yeah, yeah.

So you did mention, you know, kind of like strengthening your weaknesses. I find that really helpful, too, because just doing this kind of more formal samatha practice in this tradition, you know, I’m just kind of more of an analytical, investigatory type, you know. So—

Chapter 8: Are You a Meditation “Investigator” or “Marinator”?

That’s your natural—that’s your natural inclination.

It just makes me come alive, you know? I have a real respect for trying to arrive and seek truth, you know, and how important that is, and that’s one of my very few convictions, of how important it is to act on credible information, basically. So to use this word—I love it—to “marinate.” So it’s just been a real kind of practice for me, to just let everything go, radically simplify one object over and over again, and finding enjoyment and interest, and not having the mind go off in all different directions exploring things, investigating things, that I can do more naturally, you know, and just marinating in it.

Are you—you may have come to that term on your own, or are you referring to in my course when I say some people are naturally what I call “investigators” and some are naturally “marinators”? And of course we all have parts of both, it’s that whole idea, right?

Yeah, yeah, yes, exactly! And that’s where I got the term from you, but yeah, the experience, of course, I resonate immediately because that’s my experience with this, you know? And just taking up those terms you use, I appreciate those terms, thanks.

Yeah, and it’s interesting because in hearing how you shared for yourself—because there are some people—but like, you sound like you got a nice balance. I’m just saying, from what you said, you tend to be more of an investigator. You didn’t get into all the details of how that can manifest, but whatever that is for you, but also then you can, when, if, and when the time is right, bring in just the marinade, and just let yourself just sort of be in the states.

There are plenty of people, also, for whom they’re really more—everybody does both, but if they wanted to like kind of let go—I don’t want to say “turn off,” that’s a little forceful—but let go of the investigation side, that can be so powerful, and marinate. The mind just doesn’t work that way, because all the things they see and perceive and understand, that’s investigation—it’s just, that’s just going on. But other people can kind of say, “Yeah, okay. Yep, I got that. It’s there, I’m not going to lose it, but for right now, I’m going to let it go”.

And the same thing for the marinators. I’m more of a natural marinator, but I can choose, if I wanted to, to sort of actively bring in sort of discernment, really paying attention, noticing kind of the investigative side. So, but not everybody can do that as easily.

Yeah. Again, it’s the diversity of how we all are.

It is, you know? And I imagine some people that aren’t natural marinators, so to speak, that it takes—you know, it’s a practice to incline the mind in that way, and to start actively doing inquiry, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

The—one of the things when we talk about the body, it just—it’s so fascinating to me that in everyday waking awareness, you know, over the years, it’s not—there’s more of a grayed-out or more of a blending, but usually when I’m in a deep state of meditation and the body starts—we have a different perception or experience of the body compared to just walking around, you know, for the most part, like, or some of us, I would imagine, right? And like, I just—it blows my mind to think, well, why is that? How can I—why is it that when I get really still and train the mind, even focusing on the body, then there’s a whole different experience of it than just walking around in everyday normal consciousness, you know?

See, that’s an investigator.

Yeah, exactly!

And that just comes naturally to me, noticing process.

And you said, “Why is it?” But the point is, you’re noticing. It’s like, “When I’m in this way versus walking around, and what’s going on?” And you’re noticing the difference. You’re noticing process. You’re noticing how your being influences it. You clearly are an investigator.

Well, I agree, but then it gets in—like I say, that gets in the way when I want to sit down and just focus on one object, because the mind still has that momentum, has that habit energy of—and it’s nothing wrong so much to speak, but if I want to train this, you know, unplug and marinate and relax, it just takes more and more time for that investigatory thing to calm down and to go offline, you know what I mean?

Well, for the way you’re describing—and you know, I don’t want to start interviewing you here, but please, it’s up to you—but what the way I’m hearing it is, it sounds like you’re aware of that natural being, more of a natural investigator way, that with time, you are able to have more of the settling out of that to more marinate if you want. So that’s great, and you’ve come to know that, and you learn it, and so you’ve got that ability or skill, so that’s really great.

There are people for whom maybe they don’t either want to or haven’t found the way yet to be able to let go of that side, and actually through them just bringing—I’m not trying to tell you what to do, I’m just naming—there are some people for whom just honoring—not that you’re not honoring, I’m not saying the right thing, but who just—they just, the investigation part just is operating, and everything within that is ways of working that still gets them in deeper samadhi also, and using their natural way. So again, this is great. It just shows the different ways we—

Sure. Well, if you’d like to expand on that, I’d be definitely open to hearing about more of these techniques and abilities, a little bit.

Sure.

Chapter 9: Techniques to Channel Analytical Habit Energy

It’s a little hard because we’re all so different, so if I speak in broad generalities, it may not be that good, because if I was working with someone on a retreat, I would really want to get into like, what’s actually happening? How’s your mind working? What happens when you put… so, but as a very broad and general: when you are present with something, as opposed to spacing out—so it’s really the mindfulness, right? And we’re aware, there can be a sense of—it really takes a couple—see, it takes all these different flavors.

One flavor is: it’s not so much directing your attention, but if you have enough stability and enough presence, that it’s more of a broad, open, inclusive awareness can be resting in, in which the investigative processes are operating, just as the marinators might be in there and they’re not investigating, but they’re still seeing the thoughts moving through like clouds. But it’s the emphasis is on the open awareness, and it can become more of like that kind of a practice. That would be one flavor, but it’s just one flavor.

Another flavor is: it’s more of, not only are you noticing the investigating happening, but there is an actual intending or directing the attention to the knowing. And I would—I don’t know if this is accurate, you’ll know better than me—but like when Pa-Auk has you go through his system and he wants you to have his jhanas and all that, and then you kind of—in his system, you need to back out of the jhanas a little or a lot so you have experiences again. Some of your listeners may not know what that means, but you’re connected with changing experience. He’s really directing your attention on what he calls kalapas, fine particles. He’s got this whole thing, and that’s more of an investigative, but you’re actually taking the power of your investigative mind and directing.

And so there’s a power of directing the attention. And even if you haven’t gotten into samadhi and jhana first, that can, for certain people, be very concentrating, because the act of concentrating—it’s not on one object, so it has to be for the right person. For some people, directing away from just one object is a little too much doing, even though you’re having to concentrate. But for some investigators, directing the attention in these different ways—noticing process and things—actually can be very concentrating. So, it’s different flavors, but that’s just a couple of general thoughts.

Yeah, yeah. The first one I really resonate with, because when the kasina expands on its own, you know, then there’s just so much more space that it’s like, is so inclusive. And then the other things, the tendencies or whatever it is, can just be there, or be in the background, right? And yeah, just to do their own thing without interfering so much, or that, you know, maybe they’ll pump out something decent.

Now, the second one, I maybe will have to ask my teacher or some others about this, because from what I understand, yeah, discerning ultimate materiality, I think, is what it’s called. Usually, unless you’re dry insight—though some switch to dry insight, meaning that they don’t develop the jhanas first—you go into that, it still takes a degree of what’s called access concentration, right? So then, even usually, they do get to the level of access concentration, go through four elements that way, and then eventually that transitions, I think—missing a lot of details here—into eventually discerning these ultimate materiality, fine particles, which you can’t really—materiality can’t be subdivided anymore than this, right?

And so that’s going to—it’s a way, but like, I’m wondering about this, though, that you’re saying: that since it’s kind of more the habitual tendency of the mind to keep applying to all kinds of things, that instead of fighting this tendency to do that—not, I shouldn’t say fighting, but you know what I mean—use your superpower.

Yeah, exactly.

Power, as opposed to apply it. Let me just say this—this may not be what you meant, but I’ve had people who said—it just made me think—who all that discerning, it’s just like a churning, or there’s too much. “I’m noticing this and that, and dang it, just stop, right?” And you’re kind of fighting yourself, but I can understand that. So it could be too agitating. That’s—and then we have to work with that. It could be too much stuff, even though you’re noticing a lot.

And then it’s like, okay, what can we do, like you were talking about, about bringing in some ways to stabilize, simplify, without fighting yourself? So depending on what’s happening, that may be what again the present moment is teaching us. For other people, it’s like, wait a minute, notice what’s happening here. Is it too much churning, or can it be an awareness that’s presenting itself on subtler and subtler levels of how this is all working? And that can be a doorway to opening up our normal way of viewing just this solidity of the body and the mind, and we start to see that it’s just this changing process. And it can actually be quite a doorway into impermanence, change, no-self.

And so, I’m just saying, depending on the person, the same thing can be. So again, we have to see what’s working, and in what ways is it not working.

This is—I don’t claim to be the only one who does what I’m about to say, but this is the way I work, and this is why I did my 27-part video. When I come work with someone, I actually—I do have some sense on some level of what I want them to do, where I want them to head, but I come very open, and really where I come from is: we know I want realization, awakening, enlightenment, and more foundational liberation. So we know I want—and coming to an end of suffering, and all that. So we can hold that in common.

What that looks like then, you have to meet the individual person. And I’ve only come to this as a teacher probably in the last maybe 10 years. Before, I had more set ideas, and it’s just like, “What’s going on? Let’s take a look here, and just like I was saying, here’s how your mind’s working, here’s the ways we can use that, here’s the way we’ll steer it in other ways,” and it has to present itself.

And so I actually am—that’s why people think I’m diplomatic, because I sort of include everything. You have to. If you’re—one last thing, I’ve kind of gotten on a—sorry, it got me going. If you’re a teacher who offers what I said earlier, the “one-size-fits-all”—like a Bhante V or something like that in TWIM—totally great, because we know for some people, it’s going to be very powerful. The problem is, for all the people for whom it won’t work—which will be, it doesn’t matter what he teaches, lots of people it won’t work—they’re left behind, and you can’t do anything for those people. What do you do, just say, “Sorry, go somewhere else”? No, you have to meet them and find their way.

So that’s kind of the way I work, is that each person can deepen samadhi, insight, mindfulness, the heart qualities. Everybody can do it, but you have to help them find their pathway and their doorway, find their key. And that’s the trick.

It’s really well put, and I think even maybe within that, like you’re saying, even within that highly customized approach, there’s some generalities and systemization, but you’re more on the customization part, where maybe like in Pa-Auk and some of the teachers, that hasn’t been so institutionalized yet. There is more emphasis on a method. However, they do meet each individual where they’re at and see where they, you know, can get, but it’s not nearly as flexible.

I’m so glad to hear they’re doing that.

Yes, exactly, I know you are.

In this instance with me, I’m wondering, you know, because that’s where I’m at. It’s like, okay, well, I have this natural tendency. Should it be applied in this other way, too? But I can also see where, okay, you already have that developed somewhat, you know, so I actually need to train, you know, letting that be for a while and building up the other end of the spectrum in order to then make more use of the natural tendency—more stabilization, you know, maybe more narrow focus when it comes to these really high-level discernments, if I wanted to do that.

However, I’m just wondering, you know, like, we only have so much time in this life. So like you mentioned before, some people spend years and years developing, you know, the samadhi or, you know, jhana, and then they don’t get time to apply it to vipassana so much. So, but you know, it just brings up more cans of worms: okay, is that just a FOMO, fear of missing out, or is that good enough, you know? Or like you were talking about, and some teachers do too, of blending, you know, satipatthana together, but then again, then I wonder, is that sufficient or is it too watered down? Should we just go for the big thing, you know?

And so there’s so many questions, and I can see both pros and cons to all these different variations and ways and methods and styles, you know?

You know, this is another area I’ll probably get myself into trouble, but so I’m going to say something. I realize it’s going to be controversial. My intention is not to be controversial, but I hope if someone hears this, before they freak out, let me explain. So, first I’ll drop the thing that’s controversial:

Chapter 10: Challenging Insight Dogmas: Samadhi as a Complete Path

I think we make way too big of a deal about vipassana, about insight. It’s—and I’ll even go, excuse me, I’ll even go further. I think it’s just an article of faith that you have to have insight or vipassana for whatever we’re aiming for in the Theravada Pali Buddhist tradition. Just totally a belief, and 100% a belief.

Now, what do I mean? How can I say that? That’s heresy, you can’t say that! Well, the reason I’m saying that is—let me back up. Of course, I like to sort of say it like that, but I actually do mean that, but I want to include everything that’s in vipassana insight. All of that’s included, 100%.

But when we back up—and depending again, I threw out some words earlier that I used, what, let’s see, I said “enlightenment”. Oh yeah, I said “enlightenment,” realization, awakening, and liberation, right? So I have my own connotations for those words; I don’t use—they’re not all the same thing.

So depending on what we’re aiming for, how those—any of those and any of the ways we mean them—come about is not just one way. You don’t just have to have this vipassana insights into impermanence and change. That’s one way, but I say that samadhi, in all of it—it’s a huge world—what we mean by samadhi is also a full, complete path that includes everything else. And of course, if you start to do samadhi, all the insight stuff comes in and everything; and if you do the insight, of course you have to have some stability, whether you call it samadhi or… so you really can’t separate them out.

So when I shoot my mouth off, kind of, which I do like to do, and say we make too big of a… what I’m really saying is—and it goes back to what you were saying, which you were just kind of talking out loud about, thinking out loud about, “Well, you know, do you want to emphasize on the more on the samadhi side… well, you said samatha side, and then that can come back to the vipassana, or should I do on the…” and you know, there’s only so much time, you know?

And my thought is, what I would say: whatever one chose to go, you’re not going to be—again, this is controversial, but it shouldn’t be controversial—you’re not going to be more enlightened or liber—you might be more—there are certain practices that are going to make you more enlightened than others, there’s no question about that. But from a liberation point of view, you’re not going to be more liberated if you “I did this, but I didn’t do enough of that”. It does not matter. It’s all just formally doing these practices.

You’re going to bump up against yourself, whether we realize it or not. You know, it is interesting, isn’t it? If you put—if someone came on a meditation retreat, I remember a guy just last year came on a retreat with me for his first retreat, and he was shocked. At the end of the retreat, he had a hard retreat—I mean, he did great, but he said, “I didn’t realize I was going to bring myself with me”.

And you know, if you did nothing else but sit quietly, just—you’re going to have to come up against yourself, and all of that, whatever one does, what’s needed to reveal itself will—the purification come, everything come. So, that’s why I say, if one wants to emphasize for… it’s fine, but I think we make too big of a deal about it, because there is this thing of, “Well, concentration’s okay, but the real—you got to have insight”. No, that’s total belief.

And whoever says that does not know. I don’t care if they got a shaved head and robes, and sitting up on the stage, and everybody’s bowing at their feet—they don’t know that. It’s a belief.

Well, you bring up a really a lot of good things or interesting points, or bad things, but I’m going to go to hell realm.

No, no. So, of course I agree. What is that—I forgot who said it, said something like, “All the problems in the world are due to the fact that we can’t sit alone in a room by ourselves for long periods of time”. That quote, forgot who it was.

Yeah, exactly, that is so true. I mean, anybody that’s spent any kind of time, almost any kind of time whatsoever in meditation, can relate to that right away, you know?

So then, I just—to maybe just test this a little bit: what about the historical—and I’m not one way or the other, because, and I forget the formal things, I thought there’s—you know, there are some enlightenment ones where they are dry insight, they don’t do a lot of samadhi, but they have to have some little bit of concentration. But what we’re pointing to, but their minds have just let go so deeply, and the identification of self and creating suffering and clinging has kind of dropped away, but it may be just in a very ordinary daily life kind of way, but they’re profoundly liberated.

Well, that’s right. We talk about sila, samadhi, panna, and that’s really where it’s at, is the ripening of wisdom. And so not everybody needs like the vipassana, I guess, or you know, the total highest levels of samadhi either. It’s all about when—however what they’ve done maybe in past lives, too, have led up—what kind of parami they bring, perhaps. But it is a development of wisdom, however that comes about through samadhi, through inside practices.

I’m just curious now, because you hear these stories: the historical Buddha that had to achieve eighth jhana, you know, or the formless attainments, too. And he said, “Once I came out of it, then I’m back to where I was.” So he said that that wasn’t sufficient. Now, I don’t know if we’re—if we’re being a technicality here, if we’re including we need to go into nirodha-samapatti, because we hear about that attainment beyond eighth jhana, then once come out of that, up to six days, then like, you were able to really discern the wheel of dependent origination, or you know, like so much more clarity and detail. I’ve heard accounts of this, or whatever. So I don’t know if you want to comment on that part, just to maybe push it a little bit.

Well, what do you think about that one? Since I’m already a heretic, let me take that a step further. So, my own practice was immersed in, you know, we talk about Theravada Buddhism or the Buddhism of the Pali Buddhism, and I’ve been in the American insight scene, and of course I’m more of a samadhi person, but you know, just—and I have, that was my practice for decades and decades. I was all in, very identified as a Buddhist, all of that.

I cannot overstate how much gratitude and respect and appreciation I have for the path. I’m saying that to preface, because for me—and this won’t be other people, you know—first of all, I want to say I’m not making any claims for myself. I’ve been practicing a long time, I am pleased with the result, but I don’t, you know, I’m not making any claim or anything.

Chapter 11: Direct Experiential Practice vs. Ancient Beliefs

But first of all, we don’t know the actual—we know the Buddha, the way I think of the Buddha is, the Buddha—depending on your tradition, I’m not talking about the Vajrayana or any of the Mahayana traditions, they got their own thing, but here I talk of the Buddha of the Pali texts. What, look, the Buddha must have had a lot, I don’t think there’s any question about that, really. What was the Buddha’s mind, what did he really… you know, a lot was added as an oral tradition for some number of centuries before it, and people were, you know, stories come in and everything.

We don’t actually know; we do know what we can put into practice now and see the result for ourselves. So that part we can know, around like liberation, non-clinging, and you know, we could go on and on about this. So that part is not a belief; you can actually put things into practice and see the results.

A lot of the other stuff about, “Well, the Buddha said this” and everything—well, the Buddha of the Pali Theravada traditions’ Buddha that we have today, which is a model and an exemplar, is great. We know what it’s saying because we have the text there, so that’s one thing.

I personally don’t—I don’t think about this, I’m not on a campaign to go around… I’ve hardly said this to anybody, but if, you know, it comes up, I don’t mind saying, like, we don’t really know, and so that’s number one. So then, you know, what’s the right way? What’s enough? Did you know he went into this jhana and came out? Maybe that was his experience.

You know, the other thing is the Theravada goes even further: it’s got the Buddha, well, he can psychically know into the lives of all beings. Well, you know what? I can’t, I don’t know. But do you think—not you personally—does one think he actually had direct experiential knowledge into untold billions of beings who’ve ever existed, who exist now, who ever will exist, and all their past lives in the future, and the karmic direction of life? I ain’t buying it. So I don’t know that they say, “This is how it is and how it works for everybody”.

It’s a good point, Richard, and we don’t know. But I will agree, the most important thing here is that this can be what—what we have, we have these texts, and we’re supposed to put them into practice anyway, right? And you know, good luck to anybody that wants to become a sammasambuddha. Good. That’s all I can say. That’s a long, hard road to hoe.

And more power to you if you want to aspire to that, works.

Well yeah, that’s another thing. But like, from what I understand, it’s a selective kind of omnipotence, you know. It’s not like—because he couldn’t discern even a discernible beginning, you know, from what I understand, and so what he could supposedly trace back so many past lives, and so many thought… but there is no infinite, you know, that just because there is no discernible beginning. So of course, you can’t go back all the way. And it was a selective thing of pointing the awareness to something, you know, how we can pay attention to something and then gain information and knowledge and wisdom, and spend time, but then there’s different degrees of that.

So who knows, but you make some decent points there. I think where I want to go from here is more in your specialty here: why do you think that these samadhi teachings, and samatha practice, and jhanas, and just have now started, you know, in relatively recent time in the West, got going? It seemed like they were—would you say they were even suppressed in the West for a long time?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think we might have talked a little bit about this, but I wanted to get your take on why that was. I know I’ve heard some reasons, but I want to get it from you, too.

I don’t know, I don’t know what reasons you might have heard. Definitely back in the earlier days, you know, obviously in the big world of Theravada Buddhism, if we certainly went to Asia, there was all the Pa-Auk, and there was all—there was definitely samadhi, or some people use the term samatha practice, and that was all there.

Chapter 12: Why Samadhi & Jhanas Were Sidelined in the West

But here, kind of in the American scene, for whatever historical reasons, places like IMS and Spirit Rock and all that influence was a heavy, heavy, very influenced by, you know, those early teachers studied with many people, but for whatever reason, it was a Mahasi-side influence. And of course, they came and that’s the way they were teaching.

And look how many centers call themselves “Insight Medit…” Our center, we specifically don’t use the word. We’re called Metta Dharma Foundation; we’re not—we don’t say we’re an insight practice, we’re an “all of the above” practice.

But anyway, so back in the day, the only people I knew were me and Leigh Brasington, and we caught hell. Caught hell! And now everybody’s like, whatever.

So, ahead of your time.

Yes. Well, I don’t know, yes, I like to think we were, but I don’t know, because… but no, but we were more serious about it because people were teaching a way that they were taught, and actually part of the way they were taught was this belief—it’s turned out not to be true at all—that, “Oh, if you do samadhi, you can’t do insight,” and they had this idea of getting narrowly focused. No, none of those turn out to be true at all.

And it doesn’t matter if you’re narrowly focused, that would be perfectly fine. But you actually don’t—the more samadhi you got, you’re more aware of your mind and body than ever. Anybody who develops samadhi knows that it actually enhances insight, but that’s different.

Anyway, well, Pa-Auk gets you in a particular kind of jhana, and it’s a whole another conversation. So they had this belief that you have to do this thing called insight, and that’s fine because that’s the tradition that they are teaching. And so it’s important that they stick in a pure way to the tradition, and that’s their offering, and people got tremendous benefit. So it’s great, but they didn’t know it was a belief that people have. It’s like a blind faith thing, or something like that, of, “Oh, you got to do this one way”.

Now I think people have realized, “We’re still teaching in a certain way, this is our way, but we realize it doesn’t have to only be that way”. I think people have just learned that it could be other ways, too, and that’s just different paths. I don’t really know if that’s accurate, but I like to think that’s what happened.

Well, from yeah, from what I understand, yeah, those centers are primary—I mean, they do have some Ajahn Chah teachings and respect, and teachers have been involved in Ajahn Chah lineages, but for the most part, from what I understand, it is all Mahasi-based. And I can’t talk from experience because I haven’t done a proper Mahasi Sayadaw retreat. I’ve heard some people say it actually can be challenging for some people to unlearn Mahasi-style practice as well.

And when I was at IMS—I don’t talk too much, but—I was allowed to do my jhana practice with my nimitta, even though most of the yogis, there was a few of us that were doing jhana practice there, but so the jhana practice I was doing from the Visuddhimagga, basically, it’s compatible with that. It’s just that most people, I guess, either on the first part of that or whatever, they’re doing kind of whatever they’re doing—the dry insight and the noting—because I haven’t done that, but I was allowed, with a few other people, to do practice, and it was fairly compatible. So it seems like it’s—and I was grateful for that, because I was able to do that in such a… it’s really fascinating to be able to practice in scenarios where that continuity of awareness on one object is able, you know, through pretty much all parts of the day except for sleeping, you know?

I’ve never—really grateful for those conditions, can go really, really deep into practice, and then I have that as a reference that that’s even possible outside of those conditions if I really want to—not that you guess have to, you know? It’s amazing to be able to keep up that level of practice throughout the day.

Clearly, it’s a powerful practice for those for whom—again, I keep repeating that—and also there are other people that I’ve worked with, many, many over the years, who said, “You know, I’ve been doing this kind of vipassana for 20 years, 30 years,” and then they do some samadhi—and again, this isn’t better than the other way, but I’m just saying—also people would say, “Oh my god, the samadhi, it just opened everything up on such a level,” whether it supercharged, super-empowered their vipassana, or great, or they saw the power of just through the samadhi itself, and the clarity, and just the equanimity, and just the purification, everything that happens.

So again, it’s a big world, and karmically, my belief is—this is a belief I have, I don’t… that we all have our sort of karmic trajectory, or the arc of our lives, and as long as we keep a sincere intention and we do the best we can, then it sort of—again, this is a belief I have, but I do believe it—that, you know, what needs to come in the right time comes, whatever that looks like.

It’s a really good point, and that these are totally complementary, like you’re saying, and that if we just—if we’re sincere and we keep practicing, you know, that we are building, as long as the good intention is there and then we’re doing this, it does create outcomes that are beneficial. And that includes, you know, course-correcting if need be, the right people, having the right fruitions come, and yeah, that’s right. And that speaks to the faith, faith and trust in ourselves, and our—the teachings, and our teachers, and things like that, which is really conducive in itself for developing samadhi. So it’s a good feedback loop there, right?

And you talked about breaking through, so before we start wrapping up, we talked a little bit before about this—

Chapter 13: Exploring Psychedelics & Medicines in Dharma Practice

—kind of maybe more new area in dharma practice and samadhi practice, of psychedelics. So why don’t you talk about like, what you’re doing with that, or how that works?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I’m one of these stereotypical… so I’m getting ready for 74, so I was back in the day, when back in the late ’60s and all of that, when, you know, I kind of came of age and all of that. So a lot of the psychedelic things back then, you know, it’s not like it is today when there’s so much more awareness and knowledge, and set and setting, and being appropriate; you just—people were just, we were all, we didn’t know and you got what you got. Sometimes you just had what we’d call psychedelics, sometimes you’d open to the spiritual, just—it was a wild West.

And then actually what moved me: I started meditating in 1970, and it’s a particular tradition, and then in ’72, I think, is when Ram Dass’s book Be Here Now came out, which is a pretty dated book, but it historically is worth a read. And he had been doing all the LSD and was having similar experiences, and I dropped all that stuff, so I hadn’t done any of this stuff until only in the last not-that-many years, I had some opportunities where some people who were actually a particular monastic—I won’t name the names, but came—and I’m surprised that people were sort of doing this, and it sort of brought me back a little into some… I don’t know how much you want to get into the substances or whatever, but I’ve come back into that some.

And after all these years, just strict dharma, I, you know, no—I don’t use any substances, nothing, for like, you know, 40 years or something. So, and it opened up in a lot of ways; I don’t know how much detail you want, I’m just giving a high level of what we—what it was. And I really found it was actually quite powerful, and I thought it worked very well.

Now, you know, I’m not out like partying or that kind of thing, but really with a conscious intention, it brought in on the spiritual side. So that’s come back in. I guess the two things I would say: one is we—I’m kind of leading it, have—are just starting to actually offer… we mostly just offer regular, you know, kind of retreats in the way I speak, teach; they’re just traditional Buddhist dharma, kind of samadhi, kind of jhana retreats.

But also for—it’s just a little kind of hidden away, not that much, but we’ll see how it goes—we’ve actually done some retreats where we bring in certain—I call them medicines. I like to call them medicines; I like the word into the retreat. It’s mostly a meditation; we may start the retreat with a certain medicine, and then the whole rest of the retreat would, you know, nine or 10 days will just be—after that’ll just be… or we might do something in the middle or something.

And I will report that one retreat we did last spring, it was a select group of people I happen to know, because we’re experimenting to see how this works. And I happen to know them very well. On there, not only very experienced meditators, but also had already had some experience with medicine. So I knew—all reported, it was a small group, that it was actually, they went into new territory in their practice that they had never done, and they really thought the combination of the medicines and just regular dharma was actually quite powerful.

So the feedback so far has been good, and if people are interested in that, you know, people will know—you’ll probably tell them how to contact me or whatever—but so we’re doing something. Again, I realize I did—I don’t… I’ll talk about whatever you want, I didn’t get into the details like, what medicines are we using, and how we’re using them, why do I think it’s good. But I see the value of that, even though I’m mostly a dharma… but I do use these myself. I’m not like everyday kind of a thing like that, but here and there I’m bringing them in, and I think there’s a power there, and I expect that this particular hybrid kind of thing may turn into something for people.

Well, if you don’t mind, we could go into it just a little bit. I don’t want to spend too much time because I’m not so familiar, but like years ago, before I even got into the dharma world, meditation world, I listened to a podcast called like Psychedelic Salon or something, with like Terence McKenna and things like this. So are we talking like, what kind of stuff, because I mean, we’ve got really—people call it sacred plant medicine, and I don’t normally talk a lot about this stuff, but I just thought, just because how it could be potentially introduced in the dharma world.

We have really strong ayahuasca, you know, really strong medicine, and iboga. Iboga is another really, really powerful one. I mean, these are strong medicines, but then we have all kinds of other things, too, and we have different doses, right? And we have, like you’re saying, these aren’t used for like a recreational use; we’re not using them for that way, but I just—

We’re very conscious about vetting people, because it’s not for everybody, and first of all, needs to do it, but there’s—it’s not for everybody, but you want to make sure medically, psychologically, it’s appropriate, so we have people who know what they’re doing. That’s not my expertise, but who to make sure it’s done safely and all of that.

So you have—there’s other people that are actually administering and then doing… so like, how does it work, I guess, if you’re willing?

Yeah, like depends on medicine. I can tell you the medicines if you’re interested.

Sure, yeah, if you’d like.

I mean, you know, from a legal point of view, you got to be careful, because we have to also—one of the things is where you hold the retreats, because we want to respect laws. So some things maybe you don’t do in the country, you have to go where it’s legal and that kind of stuff.

The two main… so first of all, the medicines, you know, some people—I will use like psilocybin, like mushrooms and everything, that can be very powerful. We have not used that in this context, but I have found those can be very, very supportive, can be personally supportive, and people use ayahuasca.

We’ve been focusing on two: one is MDMA, and the other is—if you ever heard of 5-MeO-DMT, it’s one of these designer… there’s a PiHKAL and TiHKAL books of these designer psychedelics, I don’t know if it’s… it’s one of these derivations of DMT, right?

Yeah, right.

So 5-MeO is—I won’t… I’ll go as much as you want. It’s actually extremely powerful, but we… so I’ve done it in a very powerful way, where you take a dose and it’s like you blast off. But we do it in a way called a “stepwise protocol,” which is very, very gentle, and there’s a way—we have these vape pens and everything, and just very gentle, step by step. You go in and you stay there for a little bit and say, “Do you want to take another little step? Do you not? Do you want to stop?”

And it’s very safe, and so the access is so user-friendly and gentle, and you can take it. And people have found that not only is the experience itself beneficial in ways I could talk about of dissolving the ego, but in ways that are safe and not scary, but also coming out of it, then people have found that has supercharged their samadhi meditation for weeks afterwards in a real powerful way, which I didn’t expect.

So we use that. The MDMA, for people who don’t know: so these other things, they kind of—they’re transcended, they take you out of yourself. MDMA keeps you very in yourself—I don’t really call it psychedelic—because you’re not, you’re just here, but you just open up in empathy, and love, and interconnection. Not everybody does—that’s a conversation—but that’s what it does. So we use that as a heart opening, and as emerging in love and beauty, which then can open up the heart qualities and then from there bring them.

So we’ve been experimenting with both the 5-MeO and the MDMA. Again, we have to be careful because we want to respect laws. We’re not out there trying to break laws, and where is it legal, you have to—yeah, we have to think it through, but we’ve been thoughtful about how we’re doing it.

I’ve heard that psychiatry is opening up to a lot of these things, too. I have a friend who’s a therapist that does ketamine therapy, too.

Yeah, there you go, there’s another one.

So, and then the PTSD has been treated, I think, with what some people call ecstasy. So, yeah, you know…

Yeah, and this is the first I’ve heard of it being potentially done in dharma circles. And I don’t know if people are doing it like that, like we are. I haven’t heard of it; I know people who are dharma people who might lead psychedelic retreats, but it’s a full-blast psychedelic retreat.

We’re actually doing—the way we do it is, it’s a normal, traditional Buddhist meditation retreat, and then we bring in some of the medicines as a supplement to help it. It’s not—most of your time is actually, you would recognize in any retreat center you went to. So that’s what we’re doing, and we’re still learning, but we’re feeling very pleased with the result.

Like I said before the retreat, there’s a certain—maybe more left-brain practitioner that has been practicing for years and kind of maybe hitting a wall, and you know, I wonder if for certain cases it would—it can help break through, have certain breakthroughs like you’re saying, too, you know? And of course, I appreciate the responsible set and setting, and probably the integration process along with it—medical clearance, psychological/medical clearance, and preparation beforehand and stuff like this.

But yeah, who knows? Maybe—and then this is the early days, so you’re still learning as well, and there’s a lot of vast realms, as you mentioned, that can be accessed with just regular samadhi. So—

Chapter 14: Navigating Territory Beyond Traditional Frameworks

—yeah, you’ll find out what you’ll be blasted into and through, and right… and also, I’ll just say how much this opens up in—it takes you… so it’s a whole big topic, I know you’re… maybe you don’t want to get into it, but I’ll just—potential.

And I talk about this in my course a little bit. I have a little section in there called “Beyond Jhana,” like part two or whatever, when I talk about things can happen that don’t fit in a traditional—at least in the Theravada tradition—a traditional model of what people might think should happen. It doesn’t get talked about so much.

I mean, you mentioned maybe you know people who are talking about getting into other realms, fine, but people really—it’s more… and so one of the things using these medicines, it can open up in ways that I think are very powerful, but may not fit the tradition. That’s another choice point for people. If it’s moving in directions that feel good and right, but maybe… I like to think of it as, we’re not throwing away the Buddhist dharma. We have all of that, but it’s just opening up to include other things that some people may not want to include, that’s all.

Yeah, no, it’s a really good point. And then there’ll be new levels of discernment of what’s helpful, what’s not, you know, what may be intoxicating, what’s not intoxicating, what can be accessed when and not, and how it should be, and what we’re actually experiencing is what it actually is.

Because, you know, this is really going into more of the woo-woo and the other stuff in metaphysics that I’m fascinated with, too, where these certain beings will appear in some ways, but they’re actually cloaked behind—they’re actually something else appearing to be something they’re not. As we know, there’s so much deception in this world, so I don’t know if that stops there, so… but anyway, it’s another opportunity for learning and discernment, too.

It’s a huge world, big world, and big topic.

Yeah. And if I’m not careful how I say it and who I say it to, when it does seem a little bit kooky and crazy, and I understand that, but around other people, it’s their bread and butter and it’s pedestrian. So, huge range even within that.

Yes, exactly.

Said it kind of without saying it, or with a disclaimer, I guess.

Well, with that, Richard, thanks again for taking the time out today. I really enjoyed this.

Again, tell people it’s good to see you. I like hanging out and having interesting discussions, so I appreciate you asking me to come back.

And I really appreciate the elders I can find in this tradition that I really connect with and respect, living tradition, too. So, you know, this Sati—you’re… I thought, are you the Sati Center, or are you involved with…

No longer.

Chapter 15: Richard’s Background & Metta Dharma Foundation

So I’m a co-founder, actually. I had the idea of the…

How about that! Okay.

And I went to Gil Fronsdal and a few others and said, “We…” This was way back, because nowadays there’s so much opportunity for study, but there wasn’t way back then, like 30 years ago. So I was a co-founder of the Sati Center, very, very immersed and involved, and then over the years, my interest has gone just in different directions.

So nowadays, I’m not officially connected with them—it’s not negative, but I’m not connected with them at all anymore. But I still come back on occasion and will teach a daylong, or once a month, you know, a several-week series. So, you know, occasionally if they ask me back, I will, but it’s not my thing.

Our group is Metta Dharma Foundation, or Metta Dharma, and so, you know, we’re—it’s just, yeah. And you can get in touch: it’s mettadharma.org, or is it—remind me again, is two T’s: m-e-t-t-a-d-h-a-r-m-a dot org. And you can see our website will be there, and you know, I’m there, I’m listed as the guiding teacher, but you’ll see that when we do that. And, you know, retreats get listed.

People can also look—I have my own website, just richardshankman.org, and people could go there and find out what’s going on.

And if you’re in the area where you live, you’re still doing regular get-togethers in real life, still?

Yeah, yeah. So in Berkeley here in California, we—this group’s gone on for I don’t know, decades. We have a Wednesday night meditation group, and actually after COVID, as many groups did, we added a Zoom component. So now we get people who show up in person; I’d say half the people come on Zoom. So people can come, you don’t have to live in the Bay Area.

So that’s happening. We still teach, you know, residential retreats a few times a year. We kind of fell away after COVID, but COVID’s been over for a few years, so we’re starting to come back. Our retreat’s coming in the spring, and then we also do other things. COVID also kind of stopped our like once-a-month half-day or daylongs, but we’re starting to bring those back a little. So, you know, we have things we do, and then occasionally other classes, but mostly we have our weekly group and run a few retreats each year. It’s kind of simple.

Well, cool. So, anything else you have in the works you want to mention to folks, and then take us out on a final message?

You know, I don’t know what else to say about… you know, I’m kind of just… if people are interested, I hope they would feel like they at least check out the meditation course. I think if they just listen to the first two intros, you’ll get the idea of what it is, and you’ll know if it’s of interest to you or not.

You know, I don’t know if I have a final interest, but I guess what comes up in my mind, a final message…

Chapter 16: The Power of Wholesome Intention & Final Thoughts

What comes up in my mind is that something that actually we talked about, I think: I really feel that intention is so foundational, probably to everything. And, you know, it can be so easy… you know, it’s amazing how often people judge themselves and their dharma practice, and how much they judge it by how concentrated they are, which is unfortunate.

I’ve been there myself, because it’s the whole—it’s the unhelpful judging, not the discernment kind of judging, and it’s the worst criteria you could possibly fit, because everybody’s just doing the best they can. So I hope people are already doing it, and if not, take some time to reflect on your own good intentions and your good… you know, you wouldn’t be a dharma practitioner… I mean, obviously, you know everything that’s wrong with you—so, not you, but all of us—so we know that, but it doesn’t negate all the good.

And take time to just feel your goodness if you can, and if you can’t, don’t beat yourself up for that. That’s just showing you, “Wow, this is interesting, it’s hard for me to feel my goodness”. There’s an area for you to explore. So, anyway, I’m sorry, you got me going on a little mini dharma talk

That’s beautiful. And even what you just said there shows our goodness too—that we would be willing to even be honest with ourselves to point that out. So that shows such goodness as well. I really love that. So good, good.

So may we all come to find our optimal goodness for ourselves and for each other and for all beings everywhere. May all beings everywhere realize awakening, be free.

Bye, everybody.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

Psychotherapist and meditation teacher Bill Belanger — founder of Mixed Contemplative Arts —  shares his journey through Tibetan Buddhism, his decade-long training under Dr. Daniel P. Brown, and how Western Dharma can evolve beyond rigid dogma by focusing on pragmatic, reality-tested results—an approach he compares to Mixed Martial Arts (MMA). We also explore the balance between direct-awareness practices (Mahamudra and Dzogchen) and traditional preliminaries, the nuances of bringing mindfulness into corporate and clinical settings, and Bill’s impactful work introducing meditation and mental health programs to incarcerated individuals on prison tablets.

Connect with Bill Belanger: https://mixedcontemplativearts.com

Approximate Chapters:

00:00 – Introduction & Bill Belanger’s Background

01:17 – Encountering Buddhism & Studying with Dr. Daniel P. Brown

04:24 – Preliminary Practices (Ngöndro) vs. Direct Awakening

08:00 – Adapting Dharma to the West & Monastic Systems

12:15 – Monastic Debate vs. Guru Devotion Culture

17:40 – Dr. Dan Brown’s Innovations in Teaching Mahamudra & Dzogchen

20:30 – The Wandering Mahasiddhas & Life as the Path

26:50 – Mixed Contemplative Arts: The MMA Analogy for Dharma

32:30 – The Kalama Sutta: Valuing Truth Over Dogma

36:18 – Critiquing “McMindfulness” & Therapy vs. Awakening

40:02 – Ethical Dilemmas of Mindfulness in Corporate Settings

44:25 – Trauma, PTSD & Working with Veterans

50:12 – Bringing Meditation & Wellness to Incarcerated Populations

53:30 – Garchen Rinpoche & Awakening in Prison

58:55 – Scaling Reach vs. In-Person Relational Depth

1:00:45 – Current Projects, Upcoming Book & Final Thoughts

Some resources mentioned:

Books & Texts

Programs, Projects & Practices

Films & Documentaries

Cleaned up by ai transcript from Youtube:

Hey wholeness, welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and Inner Scout and today I have Bill Binger with me. Bill, how’s it going?

Good. Yeah. How are you? Oh, doing okay.

I’ll just start with this question and since we haven’t talked or we don’t know each other too much, this will be pretty much new for me. Who’s Bill? What kind of work does he do?

Yeah. So, I was trained as a psychotherapist. So I’ve been in the mental health field for a little over a decade but mostly in the corporate world. So making mental wellness courses, psycho education and then we connected because of our shared interest in Buddhism but I come at it from a different tradition. So I’ve been practicing mostly in the Tibetan tradition for about 20 years. So yeah, that’s the the short and sweet answer.

Yeah, I guess so. Uh so this is a primarily Buddhist podcast now integrating presence. I thought we’d talk about that. You you did mention something about a prison program too. So let’s I don’t know much about vajriana and Tibetan traditions. So we’ll have to wade into that. We we wanted to talk also about like intersections of where things were. One of the things when I meet Dharma friends and Dharma acquaintances, one of the first things I like to ask them is like how did you first encounter dharma dharma? I think it’s a good place to start.

Yeah. I I don’t know why but I was really curious about it from a very young age. So the first book I got was at age 14 from the Tibetan tradition. I I don’t think I really understood much of it at the time, but I was just intrigued and I just was curious for years and got introduced to mindfulness and I eventually did a trip to Bhutan in India where we studied Tibetan Buddhism.

Then after graduating college, I returned to Asia. So I did India, Nepal, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, but I did a long retreat in Nepal in the Galuka School of Tibetan Buddhism. But I I really spent years kind of searching for the right tradition. And when I came back to Massachusetts, I practiced at a Zen center. And then I eventually met my main teacher. I’m bad with dates. So it must have been around maybe 2010, 2011 or something. And pretty quickly, like on the first night I met him, I was like, “Okay, this is the teacher I’ve been searching for.”

Um, and I studied with him until his passing, which was about maybe four years ago, so for about a decade. And he was a really fascinating figure. His name was uh Dr. Daniel P. Brown. So, he was a psychologist at Harvard. He’s just like probably the only true genius I’ve ever met. Was just like a truly brilliant man. But he also was a lineage teacher in Tibetan Buddhism and translate Tibetan and Sanskrit. But we we talked before we started the beginning of like how to even approach sariana and it’s so esoteric and there’s so much ritual and cultural baggage and I think without him I would have wouldn’t have had a clue. Um but he was enormously gifted at kind of making it accessible presenting it in psychological language demystifying it.

So yeah that has been the most influential of any of the practice I’ve done but you know in the meantime done a lot of other retreats and worked with other teachers but he’s definitely been the head teacher.

Well right on. So I’ll ask about practice here, but I think another convergence question to start this is you’re you said psychotherapy, right?

Mhm. So like if you if if someone were to wander off the streets and just start uh talking without any kind of context or reference about certain you know I I don’t know exactly in that school but I know that there’s some um there’s some stages right with with deity practices in some of the schools and some uh you know wild visualizations. I would say if somebody just walked in and started talking about something that it it may be similar, you know, in the wrong context without the right support and stuff, people might think, well, this guy’s a little bit off his rocker, right?

But but it’s really interesting then how if there’s like a lineage and and a whole bunch of people doing certain things in certain contexts for certain reasons, it’s now uh it’s now not quite the same thing. I mean, we I guess even the crazy wisdom traditions I I guess from what little I know, you know, that’s well, that’s a whole another thing, but like so so how do you uh how do you use first off talk about your practice a little bit because I don’t even know really much of any of the preliminary stuff and there there’s so much commonality though between like samatab fasa from what I understand across a lot of the additions in Yeah, I mean maybe I can just speak very broadly about it too because Dan’s approach was unusual.

um and and I think in a good way. So when I first did the Tibetan retreat in Nepal, so it was 30 days and then I stayed for another week after, but it’s more in the preliminary practices. So the way that they think of it is I I actually I I it was a long time ago, but I think in that 30 days I think we barely even talked about mindfulness just to show you how much they emphasize the preliminaries. So from their perspective, you don’t just jump into some of those practices, you have to train the mind and get it ready. So, it’s almost like if you’re going to go do an intense sport, you need to stretch, you need to get ready, you need to get pliable. So, there’s a lot of different preliminaries, but a lot that they focused on is more on really it’s on changing your thoughts. It’s on changing thinking patterns and your perspective. The way Dan talked about is like they’re essentially motivational practices. So, the most impactful was the contemplation on death. So you basically uh you know in a meditative state you remind yourself remind yourself that one day you’ll die that you have no control over that and all these things you take so seriously are just going to vanish. Um but you do it over and over and over and you start to really see things differently and so like talking with people who had left that retreat people are you know they quit their jobs they made all these life changes because it’s it puts things in perspective. So from the Tibetan perspective you do that at the beginning to like have really good motivation to practice so that it’s not just something you go in and out of that it’s like a it’s like a 180 in how you view life. So there’s a lot of practices like that.

There’s a lot of visualization practices, you know, again, I I I tend to really look at it more through a psychological lens now. And I think a lot of them are helping really develop a a healthy sense of self, to do attachment work, to develop positive affect, these things that kind of stabilize the self structure before you go to these other practices that could destabilize it potentially. Now, within Tibetan Buddhism, there’s four schools. You could say five if you count Bon, which is the indigenous religion of Tibet. They all have very different flavors. So the Galuka is the newest which is really I think 1300s 1400s is the Dalai Lama school. They’re the most academic and they talk about the preliminary practices the most in my experience. You know frankly they can be a little rigid in too which I I didn’t always resonate with. What Dan did is he didn’t really do that. He we did a little bit of it but he more wanted to jump in the deep end because his critique was that especially with westerners you can spend decades doing those practices but you don’t really ever in his words get a taste of awakening or really experience like what this tradition is about. So what Dan taught is more mahammudra and zogchan which are considered like the pinnacle of Tibetan Buddhism which have much less ritual. You’re not really doing all that visualization and DD practice and it’s about working with awareness really. So again, those resonated with me a lot. I I still appreciate the visualizations and those other practices, but yeah, I I think they’re they’re really prep they’re kind of preparing you for the more advanced things. In my opinion,

it’s really well put and I I do see, you know, Zchin and uh more so even than Mahammudra with with folks I encounter and and teachers and stuff that are familiar with these. and I I don’t necessarily practice this, but I I’m familiar with these a little bit or the you just walk me through the instructions and oh yeah, I’ve I’ve I’ve considered this. I’ve in integrated this in parts of my practice and along the way or things like this. So, and you bring up another good point of when introducing just Buddhism in general, which is a huge thing. You know you got

basically terra Mahayana and then Vajriana or Tibetan Buddhism and in the west here in America which is basically a new country an experiment it’s basically an experiment at this point I would think compared to kind of more the old world and how do we bring it here and we’ve heard that pretty much every time it’s exported or since it’s left India it’s it’s it’s what we label as Buddhism which I think is kind of a western thing to put an ism on it you know it’s adapted to where it’s gone, you know, in in various ways. And I think we’re we’re still figuring that out in America. I don’t really think there’s a a typical American Buddhism. I mean, there’s there’s been a lot of things that’s happened. You know, I think probably where it first, like you said, took off. And I’ve talked to so many more old-timers, old schoolers that their first exposure was books. You know, mine was the Beats. My dad told me about Jack Carowwak. when I got into the beats was probably the not most skillful and wholesome way but it you know it was a foot in the door. It was a starting place and uh so so yeah this this notion of Zen and then we have you know the the ethical foundation which I think with for all the bells and whistles that uh Buddhism can offer to begin with which is great you know in my own practice it took me some more mindfulness and awareness to realize how important like the precepts are and how much that uh I’ve been causing myself trouble and causing others trouble and I didn’t even realize the importance of this and it was it a rude awakening but one that was needed and that foundation is so important I think and there’s a huge emphasis in in ter briefly you know they say the the vinear vanaya the the monk’s rules went to Thailand the sutas which were the kind of the general teachings of the Buddha went to Sri Lanka and then the abidama the higher psychological teachings went to Burma Myanmar so yeah so that you have you have that going on there’s as far as uh and then so many different things within terabatada even you know you’ve got so so all those and then Mahayana is a whole other thing and I’ve studied a little bit of Korean Zen retreat in in South Korea it was completely different than I’m used to and I still haven’t really got into Tibetan Buddhism but I think what kind what do you see um have you what do you see as far as America goes with this spending a little time in the east and it’s it’s mainly on the west the east and west coast I mean the Midwest is kind of even more frontier territory with with Dharma as well. Maybe start there.

Yeah. No, it’s definitely something is a question I’m kind of obsessed with.

Yeah. I mean, I can say for Tibetan Buddhism actually something that I’ve been really interested in is this like what has been given what has come to the west and what has been left out and some of the problems with that. And I again I guess on in terms of a spectrum of being much more conservative and being more radical, more and more I find myself on that radical end of the spectrum um and questioning a lot of the dogma from these traditions and trying to really get at the essence of what they’re all about. And I think the forms can be pretty radically different. But you know in Tibetan Buddhism for example um there was another article that came out recently about another guru that is having all this drama and community issues. So that’s an that’s something we can look at whereas the guru relationship within the context of Tibetan Buddhism is very important but I think people forget how different Asian culture is than western culture and really it’s from these things are in in Tibet are rooted in preodern cultures that are very very very different. So just because that guru student relationship worked well in like medieval Tibet, it doesn’t mean it will work well in the west and it’s something where I think that there’s there’s a lot there. I think it’s a viable way to work but I don’t think it’s the only way. So in terms of like the things that I’ve got this is an example that have come to the west some teachers are really big on the guru thing and even even the tool system where you recognize reincarnations and all these really weird things from a western perspective but ironically the other things from the Tibetan tradition that I like like

debate you don’t see. So when I stayed at the Galupa school, the monks debate every day. So we would walk by and watch them Yeah. debating. And it reminded me of my friends growing up where we’d play sports and we love each other and we care about each other, but we’re trying to kill each other when we’re playing.

We’re trying to compete. We want to win and afterwards we’re all, you know, laughing and hugging. But you’re ch at least, you know, most of these traditions are still more male-based, but it’s a healthy channeling of that intense masculine energy because a lot of these are young men, you know, like there’s just like tons of young men at this monastery. There’s no females around except for the Westerners. They have all this intense energy and you’re channeling it into something that’s really positive, but it’s not so much of like you just blindly accept everything. You have to really grapple with some of this stuff and debate it. And then even within Tibet, the history of Tibet, there was these really kind of amazing debate traditions where different schools would debate each other for like year. They’d have these year-long events of debate. It’s I think it’s the Sier debate was the biggest one where it was basically the gradual school versus instantaneous school, but literally the loser like has to forfeit everything and they have to give up and uh they have to almost convert to the other person’s school. It’s like pretty dramatic, but it encourages like debate and you’re trying to figure things out, but like I don’t really see that in any any western centers and I don’t even mean in terms of like doing formal debate, but just the kind of that spirit gets a little bit lost in some of these centers where it’s like well you just worship the guru and you do the rituals. So again, I think sometimes like some communities and some of us are missing the point.

But just that’s just one example of the student teacher relationship which has just been a disaster I think in the west and I think people need to be a little bit more radical of questioning it and saying maybe it worked really well in this other context. But it’s it’s ironic to me too especially within the Buddhist tradition of this understanding of emptiness and this understanding of things depending on other things that you can’t just pluck something out of one context and throw it in another context that these things were born in this unique context. So yeah, there there’s a whole other rabbit hole we can go down, but more and more I do think that I the way that I look at it, I think the first generation of Western teachers, it was really just like a literal translation of we don’t know what any of this is. We’re trying to translate it into the English language. We’re trying to preserve it because a lot of these like Tibet especially is a refugee culture after 1959. And in refugee societies, it’s all about preservation, which is appropriate. That’s what you need to do.

But I think we’re kind of getting into this other stage where it’s like, okay, well, how do we translate it culturally? We have the texts, we know what the rituals are, but what do they really mean? What is the psychological essence of them? And how do westerners find their own way? So, I yeah, that that’s something I’m really passionate and interested in, and I I still think it’s a very much open question, but like I said, I’ve been in the space for a long time, and more and more I find myself kind of having more radical views on some of this stuff. But the the the main thing you mentioned and I I I found that I find this really fascinating the debate. Now I’m not really I mean yes I know the the well I don’t I I’ve seen these things and I’m familiar with the idea to me I’m not so much interested in debate but I do value the truth and getting at the truth. I don’t necessarily have to be right but it’s about dharma and what is real and what is true to the the extent that we can get to with our understanding with uh with well in the context of debate there are certain logical things I do think that some of the stuff let’s just put it this way the the the the more depth and practice there is and the more realization there is then the the more understanding and wisdom there is and it’s not really necessarily to prove it but what this container does it seems to me is is um uh just like if you’re you rightly put it with sports and what I found when the little sports that I did the more I could go up against people that were way more advanced and skillful than me and let’s just say better then that improved me right it makes us this is just kind of obvious we don’t need to rehash this but I I guess the question here for you would be why don’t you think something like this or some kind of flavor favor implementation or translation of of the benefits of that that bring people why hasn’t that been implemented or has it and why would why will it work or why will it not work?

Yeah, I mean I I think I think yeah it’s a long it’s a long answer but I I feel like there have been teachers that have experimented some with success and some with some pretty big failures. I think that there’s always a tension in any tradition between the conservative element and the radical element. And I think that’s good. I think that’s a system level thing. You need both to kind of balance it because these systems are dynamic and they’re they’re not stable. They’re they’re always moving.

So I think you need people that want to preserve and do things exactly the same way and people that want to innovate. That’s a healthy tension. And again, I think in the first generation because at least I I know more about Tibetan Buddhism, so I I can’t speak as much about the Terravadan tradition, but again, it was a refugee thing and they you have to that the the stage appropriate thing is to preserve because some of those things could have gotten lost. I think you know just as an example, I’ll tell you one of the things that Dan I think really innovated on. So

it’s this idea with before Mahammudra and Zokchen, you do these preliminary practices. So usually there’s five different practices. you have to do them 100,000 times each. It takes years and years and years and years to do that.

So, and that’s dogma within that tradition. So, there there’s teachers and students who if you even question that will get very upset. But it’s funny because Mahammudra and Zukchan predate the preliminary practices by like 500 years. So, people were doing those practices for a really long time before the preliminary systems were developed.

And if you look at it historically, the preliminary systems became really popular when these great monasteries were built. So, you know, Dan would talk about it, some of it was like the institutionalization of meditation where at least in the Tibetan tradition, a lot of this was more relational. It was more you would have a teacher, there was a few students, they would adapt it and personalize it. So, it was really intimate. It was it was more akin to psychotherapy where it’s this relational approach. But when you had these monasteries with hundreds or even a thousand monks all practicing, that kind of got lost. So it became almost like a meditation boot camp where everybody has to do these same things because it’s it’s a function of the institution. You can’t personalize something for a thousand monks. You know, anytime you have a thousand young men together, it’s it’s a you have to be careful with that energy, right? It’s it that can go wrong very quickly.

So again, that was a dogma. it came to the west and now everybody has to do the exact same way but they kind of missed the function of it. So Dan was somebody who decided to teach Mahammudra and Zou Chen without doing that which was very uncommon but he was pretty compelling where a lot of these old Tibetan masters ended up doing watching him do these retreats and agreed with him and would teach these advanced practices without requiring the preliminaries. Um, so I think there were some of these Tibetan masters who were open-minded enough to question that dogma and say actually this is working. Maybe we don’t have to do it. Again, that’s not a very popular view. But in my tradition, like I think it worked much better and it made a lot more sense. So there there’s other examples like of trunk ripe who I have very mixed opinions on who did some experimentation. Some I think worked, some I think was a disaster. So I I think sometimes, you know, experimentation means you fail.

Sometimes it won’t all be pretty. But yeah, I mean I’ll pause here. I I have a whole philosophy of what I think should happen, which probably doesn’t mean much, but we could chat about that. But I I have a kind of a theory of a different model, but yeah, we I can pause there for a second. Yeah, I would love to to to hear that just for my own background and listeners that are already familiar, they can fast forward this part, but I just can you just give me like a brief nutshell history of how the preliminaries or at least some of them were uh created and and why?

Yeah. And again, this is a some people will probably disagree with me and I’m not a scholar by any means. This is just my own understanding of it. But the way that Dan taught, there’s a tradition called the wandering mahasidas. There’s a book by Keith Dowman. I might even have the title somewhere over here.

I think it’s called Masters of Enchantment, but it’s it’s a really cool book where they talk about this tradition. So, this was this was pre these great monasteries and it lasted about 500 years and it is kind of where that crazy wisdom tradition started. I think that whole idea of crazy wisdom got kind of perverted in the west. But the original piece of it was you had these students that had a deep relationship with their teachers and their teachers personalized the teachings for them. So there’s one story in that book of a compulsive gambler who’s gambling all of his money on dice and he’s just kind of like a a wreck and he loses all his money and his debtors find him and almost beat him to death and he hides out in a graveyard and these yogis would practice in the graveyard. So he met a yogi and the yogi basically teaches him meditation through the rent the lens of gambling and it’s all metaphors about gambling and he said you don’t have to give up gambling you can use gambling as as the path to practice. So this is like a fundamental vajriana view. You don’t really have to change your life circumstances or become a monk. You’re using your own neurosis and all trauma and everything is it’s like fuel. It’s just energy. So you’re using it to wake up. But there’s all these wild stories. There’s sex workers.

There’s rich people. There’s poor people and they’re using their life circumstances as the path with these, you know, practices that are given right to them. So this was pretty wild interesting yogic tradition and it predates these great monasteries. But when these great monasteries started getting built that’s where I think Gampopa was one of the main ones that started making these these um preliminary systems and I I don’t want to bash these at all because there’s a there’s an unbelievable logic to to some of this that makes a lot of sense. the pract I’ve spent years and years doing the practices so I’m not like saying them for them or against them but what Dan said is in his translating a lot of these texts that he was translating all these things and he found something interesting that about a couple hundred years after they instituted these great monasteries and these great preliminary systems all these texts started appearing around the problems of meditation and all the problems that can arise and he hadn’t seen that before so his hypothesis was more what it used to be student teacher relationship. The teacher is monitoring the students progress. It’s personalized. When you have a thousand people practicing without any relationship, people just start getting off course. And that’s kind of a known thing in the Tibetan tradition where there’s this misunderstanding in the west that just because someone has a monk’s robes, they’re this magnificent yogi. It’s not what it is. Like even the Daly Lama in another book kind of jokes, he literally says the phrase that half of them are garbage. I I think he’s teasing, but he’s basic. A lot of the monks it’s they’re lazy. That’s again, I’m not saying that’s what these teachers will say. They’re lazy and they hang out and they light incense and they do the the rituals, but it’s because it’s kind of an easier life than you know, a lot of them come from poverty and they don’t have a lot of opportunity. So, another ripche we knew, he was head of several monasteries and he said, “Off the record, we I only have five good yogis and from all these hundreds and hundreds of monks.” So, you know, it’s like any of these institutions. They they’re a double-edged sword. So, again, I think like the preliminaries have this great logic and there’s a lot there that I like, but I think when it gets blindly important to the West and people just do it because you think that’s the thing to do, I think it kind of gets off track.

Yeah. So, that that’s my understanding of it in a brief view.

Well, yeah. I was I was wanting to get uh more details about like an example of what the preliminary is and if you have any idea of like uh like of all the infinite things you could have chosen to keep people on track and and train them and get them ready, why did they choose that and how it fits in then into without I because I mean and then there’s a whole notion of some of these uh teachings and texts are protected. So there’s certain things that make sense to say in public and right off the bat and some things that don’t. So I understand there there may be some complications with with mentioning that real briefly and then just then you can just flow into um what suggestions you have too. I would love to hear that.

Yeah. Well, I guess like the way Dan talked about some of the preliminaries is there’s some that are like analytical meditations like the ones on death.

There’s others like karma which again it’s you’re just training the thinking patterns differently. So you realize like an example I learned it is if let’s say that you smoke a couple cigarettes a day and you’re in your 20s. It doesn’t really matter. It’s not that bad of a thing. But in the karma visualization you visualize what is that compounded for the next 50 years and how that really starts to have more and more negative effects. So something that doesn’t seem that bad actually over a long time becomes something very bad. So you you’re doing it. So in that sense you can look at some of them as behavioral change interventions to change your behavior. Some of them are motivational practices to develop motivational states to encourage you to practice. Some I think are to change the how often you have positive mental states versus negative mental states. So

if you’re doing formless awareness practices but you have really bad habits and you’re in all this negativity all the time, they don’t work as well. If you are doing states where you’re in more states of gratitude and compassion more often, even though from the ultimate view they kind of break that down eventually, it’s still relatively really helpful. Again, I think a sense of self and the sense of the external world in Mahammudra especially talks about that a lot of the their mental constructions or representations that we make and as a therapist I find that really interesting because with our own trauma and our neurosis we can have a healthy construction of what the world is and the self or an unhealthy one and on a relative level it’s better to view the world as a healthier place and safe place. I think some of the preliminary practice help balance the nervous system to get you know less of an activated state more of a calm state. So these are really wise intelligent things. So in terms of like my theory of what I would if I had a magic wand I could make western Buddhism be whatever I wanted it to be. you kind of you can tell me and I yeah I welcome your honest feedback about this but the the uh the analogy

that I love using now it’s like I’ve made a new website that the first project we do is the prison project but kind of sums it up the website’s called mixed contemplative arts so it’s it’s mirroring for mixed martial arts so to me mixed martial arts is like a perfect case study of what Buddhism could be so for people that don’t know you know for thousands of years all around the world there’s all these different martial arts so kung fu karate

you know, there’s a lot of them, but they kind of stayed within their dojo and had their own rules and their own dogma. And undoubtedly, if you didn’t know anything and you trained in any of these, you would be much better at self-defense. You’d be much better if you had a fight. So, they they obviously work and they have value. But the first mixed martial arts popular event of UFC 1 had this really radical question which is what if we just bring all these together and just have the minimal amount of rules and just see what works.

And what happened was Hoy Gracie who’s did Brazilian jiu-jitsu was he was like skinny and he did not look big. He he didn’t really know how to strike. He wasn’t a good striker. He entered and and the normal dogma of martial arts would say well these karate guys or these boxers are going to kill this guy. But that’s not what happened. That the jiu-jitsu guy just dominated everybody and this style that no one really knew about. So it was it was this enormously sophisticated fighting technique where you don’t care about striking. You get your opponent to the ground, you hold them down, and you submit them. And so it kind of stunned the mix the the martial arts world. And so thousands of years of tradition just got kind, you know, this dogma just got wiped out in a single night. And then, you know, it wasn’t a fluke because then the next the next mixed martial event too, this he entered and did the same exact thing. And the the footage is amazing. You have these guys that are like 250 pounds and these and he’s just dominating them. But the the way that I look at it is that these traditional martial arts follow this tradition principle where you do it because your teacher does it this way and you do it because the tradition says it to do this way. And that’s what we’re doing with Buddhism in the West. It’s if you go to a Zen and again, I’m not saying this is bad or good. It’s but if you go to a Zen center or Tibetan center, you do it the way the when I did a the Korean Zen as well, the way that they did it. If you go to the Galupa school in Massachusetts, that’s how they do it.

But I think it’s much the this mixed contemplative arts is much more interesting, which is like which I think is it’s a fundamentally Buddhist idea of being true to reality. We’re we’re not, you know, what works because I think all these schools have these different values and some of them just have dogma that I don’t think works. So, and I’m not I’m not advocating getting rid of tradition either because if you looked what happened with mixed martial arts, it didn’t do that at all. It’s it’s the opposite. It’s that a lot of these traditions that worked. So, American wrestling and boxing, um, wet Thai from Thailand, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, they’ve blown up in popularity. So, I’m not advocating getting rid of all these traditions or making a big mush or whatever. I just think it’s the the essence of Buddhism in my opinion is like being true to reality and seeing what actually works and that’s what I think we should be faithful to. So, um, yeah, I’m I’m something I’m writing about a little bit at the moment and and experimenting with and I think it’s more philosophical than in terms of what would that actually look like. But to me, that’s the only way that Buddhism is going to kind of survive and thrive in the future is it needs to be a little bit more radical and we need to be like we can’t be rigid of well I’m just going to do this thing that has been done because it was like a thousand years because all these traditions have blind spots. So the the the the traditional the blind spot for traditional martial arts was that fighting is about striking. That’s just what everybody assumed. But the blind spot was if someone said, “Well, why not why does it have to be that? what if we just only focus on going on the ground and submitting people? So, it exposed this massive blind spot. But again, you’re you’re being true. It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t anybody winning an argument or debate. It was reality dictates what works rather than tradition. So, uh you know, in reality too, I think a lot of Westerners kind of have this approach anyways because a lot of Westerners are experimenting with with things ranging from therapy to yoga to different Buddhist traditions. And you know ultimately they’re going to they’re going to stick with what works. But I think on a structural level we we haven’t really seen much like that yet.

I think this is uh at least America is a good container for this happening. And I I feel this is already underway. you know, of course we we do have lineages, I guess, that have come in or more established in America, right? But like for the most part, if I look around

Dharma teachers, Dharma teachers, a lot of them are already drawing on all kinds of things.

And I agree with this, but uh, one of the dangers of this is to have it become more watered down and more homogenized.

So that’s that’s the danger to this, but it doesn’t like I I don’t think it has to be that way. you know, there can be rigor, there can be more emphasis on reality and truth, you know, and cutting away what doesn’t work and also exposing blind spots and while still like you’re saying and I agree preserving traditions because if they’re not preserved, we don’t have any kind of original source to draw on, you know, because then it will become a homogeneized great blob kind of thing. So it’s it’s it’s balancing these this and re I think giving respect and and moving in and out of these or or committing to one over the you know what I mean? So all this is valuable and I think there’s there’s plenty of room for all this to go on and I if if you don’t mind I’ll just read this at the Kalama uh suta. I don’t know

if you’ve heard this you’ve probably heard this already but this kind of speaks to your point and I’ll just read two little selections. Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability or by the thought this contemplative is our teacher. And then I dot dot dot it goes on. And when you know for yourselves that these qualities are skillful, these qualities are blameless, these qualities are praised by the wise, these qualities when adopted and carrying carried out lead to welfare and happiness, then you should enter and remain in them. And that’s a 3.65 kama suta. So yeah, you know, is it basically the background of the Clamas was like a a people or a village and they had so many teachers coming through saying, “Oh, you should do this, not do this,” you know, and then the Buddha finally came and and talked to them and that’s the advice he gave them, which I think is is great in so many areas of uh you know, guidance for what what to do, how to approach things, you know, and and to me that that attitude is what attracted me to Buddhism so much. It wasn’t dogma that, you know, the Buddha says it, therefore it’s true. there and there is some of that attitude still uh you know but I think that’s what is so unique about it and even the Daly Lama where at the monastery that I practice they were they teach amongst science like they there’s things that are contradicted this the cosmology of some of the Tibetan texts and and the early sutas have cosmology that you know I guess you could say is not we don’t see any much as much truth in it in terms in terms of like comparing it to the meditation stuff and the Daly Lama was like, “Yeah, then just you just just throw it out.” Like if they got it wrong, they got it wrong. Like if we know more about some of the science stuff, then we should they should learn that. So there is this this fidelity to reality and to truth more than tradition. And to me, that’s what makes these traditions so beautiful is that that focus rather than um you know, just do this because you’re told to do it. Basically the way that I talk about it is with in the Tibetan tradition there’s the there’s still that attitude but there’s also this like institutional dogma creep that slowly starts to creep in where stuff just gets done so long even though there are those sayings of the Buddha like in reality there still is a lot of dogma and this is how you have to do it and this is the ritual but again I I’m just more interested in what works. So does that work or does it not? If one school says X and the other says Y, the question for Westerners is

how are you supposed to know which is true?

That’s the question. And I and I think it’s you either go back to dogma or you experiment and you see what actually works and and it shouldn’t only be personal. Ideally, it would be community thing too. Yeah.

Well, that’s right. And the the Buddha was a huge pragmatist you know and he only in the ter you know terat view we have of the original teachings he he just taught suffering at the end of suffering even though he knew so much more that was the main goal and it it was the other quality of of dharma is that it’s visible here and now you know so yeah so that’s it’s really important and then when we talk about translating it to a therapeutic context you know it a lot of it works fairly fairly well from what I know and it goes way beyond that to me the therapeutic aspects, psychological, therapeutic benefits of it are like a side effect, you know, that just happens as a as you’re doing practice almost naturally. So, it’s it’s wild. Yeah. So, if you want to comment on any of that, and then if we want to let’s tell tell me a little bit more about the prison project, what you’re doing with that, what that is, and how you got involved in that space, too.

Yeah. And just in terms of the that the psychological benefits too thing is interesting where I agree I think it’s more of a side effect and that is a concern of mine where I have very mixed feelings on the mindfulness movement and what gets criticized is the MC mindfulness movement. So to me like that’s the the water down thing that you mentioned that’s one of the big things where it’s like mindfulness is a it’s a stress reduction strategy. It’s a self-help strategy. And Dan, even as a as a clinical psychologist, was always clear, this is not a therapy tradition. This is not what these things are, you know, and at the same time, I think therapy is more appropriate for certain issues than meditation is. And there’s u I think her name is Willberry Brixton or something. I think she’s one of the the researchers that has done the most on the the problems that arise from meditation, which are not it’s not a very um common thing you’ll hear at at certain dharma centers, but there’s legitimate psychological problems that happen for meditation. So, yeah, I mean I I think both are valuable, but I think the that is I see the risk of like this mixed contemplative arts thing as more of the collapsing of the two. Um and what like so that’s kind of what I think happened with some of the mindfulness stuff. It gets you lose the ethics and you lose the focus on no self and on awakening and it gets collapsed into a personality project of making people healthier and less stress which again I have mixed feelings about because I think people have a right to that and something like the mindfulness based stress reduction to me it doesn’t really uh it can’t compare to the other traditions I’ve done like mahammudra or zokchan or or something like that but not everybody needs to do that and I think If you’re recovering from an illness or you have chronic pain or you have anxiety or depression, if a mindfulness can can help you get some relief from that, I think that’s great.

I think it should. Mindfulness based stress reduction is a is a good example where to me it it pales in comparison to some of the different traditions that I’ve practiced. But I also think it’s done a lot of good. And if somebody has chronic pain or anxiety or depression, I think it’s wonderful that they have access to that. I guess for me the main concern is more when people like Buddhism is about to me is about awakening. That’s it’s in the very name of Buddhism. It’s not about chilling out a little bit and you know adapting to samsara a little bit better. That that’s not what the heart of the tradition is.

At the same time it’s about helping as many people as possible. And there’s many normal people who they’re not interested in Buddhism and great. You know, I don’t I’m not I don’t believe in trying to convert anybody. But if they can do mindfulness 10 minutes a day and they have less chronic pain, that’s wonderful. But I I just to me I think both are valuable. I I just am concerned when how much the Buddhist tradition gets co-opted um in service of things that I don’t think are congruent. Maybe that’s another rabbit hole, but if you want, we can go to the Yeah. before we I mean it kind of starts tying into that and maybe or I think the transition is corporate so transplanting this into the corporate world I always wondered about that and I don’t know if you have any what your level of experience is I have absolutely close to none although I was leading a group but it wasn’t your traditional corporate setting so how can that be helpful and how can it be abused because on one hand I just think okay are you just getting people to just sit in their cubicle longer and churn out more, you know, work and do, you know, keep ellay the burnout so they can just basically slave away their entire life so somebody else can get rich. You know, when they might be putting off this internal calling that’s saying, “Hey, get the heck out of here. Do something else.” You know what I mean? Uh, it’s a really crude way to put it, but I think you know where I’m going with this, right?

Yeah. I’ve I have I’ve so I’ve been in in the corporate space for a long time, but I’ve been so conflicted about it.

We’ve I’ve focused more on mental health in the workplace, but we’ve done some mindfulness and stress reduction. I’ll tell you a story that kind of exemplifies it where I have a uh a clinical psychologist that works with me and we had a without giving any personal details away, we had a film production company that was a client and they wanted a personal webinar on stress reduction. So the psychologist I work with does something. He teaches mindfulness on the go and it’s more just like you know resilience uh stress reduction mindfulness. It’s some basic stuff. It’s like an hour webinar. So but again they this their team reached out to us because of stress. They have high stress. So great we we book the webinar and then the night before the psychologist I work with gets an email from their an urgent email from the lawyer. He wants to talk with them and they talk with them. He says, “Under no circumstances can you use the word stress in the presentation.” Like, don’t go there. So, there’s there’s some legal issues that they’re worried about. They don’t they don’t want to acknowledge that they are having such a stressful workplace because they don’t want to have liability because they’re working people 16 hours a day and they’re having all these issues. So, okay, well, you hired us to do a stress reduction seminar. We can’t talk about stress. So, you know, we’re just kind of laughing at the absurdity of it. So he he’s a smart guy. He retools it overnight. He uses the term resilience they’re comfortable with. But so it’s it’s it’s interesting because like it’s an ethical it’s an interesting ethical quagmire a lot of this stuff because in one sense you have to deal with that type of thing where the comp let me be careful how I say this. Some of the companies not all some of the companies they don’t really care about these things. The lawyer that call they’re trying to protect the company.

um they’re not really thinking about the long-term well-being of the employees.

So, are you willing to work with that, but at the end of the day, we’re the employees are just they don’t know about any of that. They’re just they’re stressed and this psychologist can give them something that will help them. So, it’s a band-aid. There’s deeper structural issues, but band-aids are helpful. I use band-aids sometimes. If I break my arm, I don’t want to use a band-aid. So, I don’t know. I mean, just honestly, I’m conflicted. I don’t have an answer. I I think it is a double-edged sword. I think there’s some bad actors in the space and I think there’s some really good people that are just we meet people where they’re at.

So, I think it goes both ways.

I I see it the same way. You know, I don’t really know what I would I think it they would do it on a case- by case basis cuz yeah, like on one hand too, you have you’re planting seeds, you know, never know how when those seeds will take root. And yeah, it’s it’s it’s I don’t think it’s a one-sizefits-all thing, too, you know, and and I can imagine it’s got to the there’s similarities and differences with veterans, you know, cuz the the veteran stuff is is wild. You have some people that are just completely I would say brainwashed. you know that it’s that they they’ve bought into something that they don’t know the full extent of and they think they’re you know doing good and maybe sometimes they are but a lot of times they’re not seeing I think that a lot of these wars and conflicts are instigated by rich people and people that want money and control and so somehow getting basically I would just say brainwashed for lack of a better word to kill strangers that they’ve never met for reasons they don’t really fully understand or they think they they for one reason, but then that’s one thing, but then when they try to get reintegrated into society, all that now has to change, almost like have to forget about all that and just go back to normal life. I mean, I’m exaggerating a little bit. And of course, it’s not exactly like that, but then at the same time, not interfere with the war machine going forward, you know, and so it’s that to me can be seems even more challenging uh particularly and what to do about that as well. And yeah, but that that will tie into the prison thing too, I think, because we have similar type because because I’ve got a buddy who’s a who is a not a warden, but a a prison guard, you know, and so the the type of people that they’re dealing with and like, you know, military people go on to be in law enforcement and things like this, too. So, but anyway, yeah, if you jump in there.

Well, just just with the veteran thing, we’ve done a little bit of work with that mo mostly just with PTSD courses.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean another another interesting example is MDMA assisted psychotherapy who I have friends that are involved in that. The research is spectacular with working with PTSD. And I think that the people that have pioneered some of that work are so intelligent and in how they’ve done it because they could have approached it in a different way where it’s, oh, we’re doing this psychedelic therapy. it’s pretty out there, but they focused on uh

working with veterans because it’s this more conservative issue that people it kind of are more open to. So, yeah, I know people clinicians that do that work, it’s spectacular. Um, and again, I I’m just of the opinion is if you’re you have trauma, I want people to have whatever resources are going to work.

And I kind of in some sense don’t really care how you got there. I think it’s only positive if you’re traumatized, if you give someone a a a way to work out of that, it helps because when someone’s traumatized, it ripples out. It affects everybody. So, if you’re a really good person and you were seven, I know I had friends that enlisted, you could sign up at 17 if your parents signed, too. I 17 and 18. I had friends that did that and went to Iraq, got PTSD. You know, you can’t really fault a kid. They don’t know what they’re doing. And a lot of these people get brainwashed and then when they come back they are much more mature and they look at things much differently. So in that sense like the I think the more the marrier people should have access to these things. At the same time, there’s something that intuitively feels dystopian when the VA is getting involved in some of this where it’s like you you pay to send someone to go kill people and get traumatized and then you pay to give them the MDMA treatment to get over it quickly because they want something that works quickly. It’s just like uh maybe just don’t do either would be better. But, you know, I I think it’s just another quagmire as someone in this space. I can’t control these large systems. So, with the prisons thing too, I I don’t have any control over any of it. I I’m just one person. So you I think sometimes it just you’re we all have to work within systems that we don’t like. Even if you and I were, you know, let’s say we became ordained as monks and we’re super committed to the Buddhist precepts and and morality, you could make an argument even us talking on the Zoom on this call, you’re you’re where do you draw the line?

Because the the laptop I’m using probably has conflict minerals from the Congo or something, right? or are your our iPhones and you’re working with um public corporations, you’re using these services and some of those companies are causing great harm. So, you can’t ever fully remove yourself from those circumstances, I don’t think. So, I I think in a in a way the uh in the Buddhist time it was a lot more simple. If you’re living in a village and you’re a farmer, you’re not as interconnected with all these different systems. But we don’t that’s not how life is. So, you you can’t fully remove yourself from bad systems. I just don’t I don’t see a world where that’s going to happen anytime soon.

So again, the the connection dropped. I missed a little bit of that, but yeah, it it’s right. So I mean, one of the examples of uh this is is like, you know, nonharming of animals, but like there’s microbi there’s little critters in everything like kind of we eat and drink too. So you know that’s that’s right. So it’s it’s another thing that’s and then I know some monasteries that they’re not really allowed they have to get approval to go on podcasts and things like that and they’re not allowed to own their own laptop. So it’s it’s it’s it’s something that’s been given to them in ter you know to the monastery right they’re not allowed to own it so they all have to use it and stuff like that. And then we get you know do you throw it away with a conflict meal but then is that so yeah it’s uh that that’s right it’s everything is not simple easy cut and dry black and white. Um, so the other thing I just wanted before we talk about the prison thing and this will go into it because there’s a of course some brutal things that happen in prisons and things that lead up to it. Obviously we all know that. But I think even going far beyond that is something I’ve heard about recently called Ramcoa. I don’t know if you’re familiar with this acronym.

Ritual abuse, mind Yeah. ritual abuse, mind control, and organized abuse. So, I don’t know if we want to go into that, but I’ve I’ve heard these allegations and u survivor stories and, you know, and the different claims about, you know, all the strategies to say otherwise about basically programming someone through uh ritual abuse to then fracture their personality, create subpersonalities kind of like in DID in order for just business basically. you know, the like sex kitten programming, assassination type programming, information moving, and then like having a backup of omega programming to to take someone out if if if things go wrong. So anyway, really this really horrible sometimes it can be generational, I’ve heard, abuse that goes uh into this stuff. So some of this stuff is just really hard to fathom. And here are survivors that are coming forth with about how more details about how this works and more of a science of how these things are programmed allegedly and and triggered and carried out and covered up and countered and dealt with to keep it secret so to speak. So it sounds really kind of crazy and conspiratorial and you know off the deep end but I I don’t know. I just wanted to get your take if you’ve if you’ve heard any of this stuff in this space.

No, I’ve never heard that. Okay. Well, I can send you some uh some some things later uh maybe about it. So, we’ll just that’ll be easy to just go on then to the prison the prison stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. The prison stuff is interesting. I can kind of talk about some of my experience with it and the philosophy behind it. And the fir I volunteered at a prison actually with a woman Dr. Jenny Phillips who did a film called the Dhamma brothers. Yeah. So, maybe you’ve heard of it. And they would

Yeah, you’ve seen it. They did vaposa retreats essentially in prison and I volunteered with her at a correctional facility in Massachusetts and we did a program called houses of healing which is like a um it’s a combination of like therapeutic type exercises and and some basic meditation and yoga. So that was one of my first exposures. It was a pretty long time ago at least 15 years ago. So I I’ve always been really interested in it. I’ I’ve had some friends that have been to prison. I probably could have made a few different life circumstances and ended up there.

And uh so it’s just something that I’ve been I’ve been drawn to. And then when I did my clinical internship, I worked with people that were either just getting out of prison and were in halfway houses or were were had court mandated therapy usually for drug and alcohol things, but often other crimes are related. So just something that I’ve been really interested in for a long time and kind of like on the side been working on this, but it just launched this year. So it’s on prison tablets and because for my my current company where we do workplace wellness, we we’ve developed for years all this mental wellness content. So we’ve started kind of doing that and make starting to make some custom content for the prison system. So it’s interesting ju just to tie this back to a Tibetan view that I I was really inspired by. There’s a text in the Ningma school of Tibetan Buddhism. It’s called the prayer of Kazankpo. So, Kunta Zankpo is it’s kind of like the primordial Buddha or Buddha nature, but it’s personified as is this deity. And I spent a week on retreat with that text uh with my teacher Dan with Rahab Tukul Rimpche, who is old school Tibetan Lama, schooled in Tibet before the 59 invasion. But it’s a really interesting text because it’s something that this the people in Ningma school read every day or recite every day, but we were taught it as a zokchan teaching and meditation. But the the basically the view is that this awakened

awareness or Buddha nature is present in all of the hell realms. So you go through the six realms of existence and in each realm that Buddha nature is present. Now granted it’s difficult for those beings to recognize it but it’s there. And so you so some of the practices in that relate to that text.

You’re visualizing yourself basically going to hell and trying to liberate these beings. So to me again it’s just so so interesting in like kind of the essence of that non-dual understanding where you think of heaven and hell. The whole idea is get the hell away from hell. Go to heaven. Hell is bad. Don’t go there. Heaven is good. And the this tradition is so different. No. If you’re a really advanced practitioner, you go to hell deliberately. And there’s stories of it like that in the Tibetan tradition of people that go to hell to help those beings. So, and then the other tangent we could go down is some of these p there’s a lot of prison stories with the uh Chinese and the Tibetans where a lot of these really

advanced Tibetan teachers got imprisoned and for decades and tortured in this horrendous abuse and one in particular um Garchin Rimpchet has this unbelievable story where he was uh he was basically he he eventually got captured by the Chinese and before that he was getting inreed inreasingly angrier and angrier at the invasion because it was horrific and they were killing all the Tibetans. And at one point he was he went out and intent to kill this camp of of Chinese soldiers with an axe was going to literally go murder them. That’s how far off his anger had taken him. And in his biography, he talks about how he felt like he was the angriest person that had ever been born. Just so consumed by anger. So then he’s in prison and uh he’s basically going through all these horrendous

abuse and he’s starving to death and he want he wants to incite the Chinese guard to kill him. So he, you know, he’s kind of hanging on to life and he spits in the guy’s face. So he thinks he’s going to, you know, that’s his way of committing suicide, but for some reason it doesn’t work. And the the there’s this weird occurrence and the Chinese guard ends up having empathy for him and goes and brings him this other section and feeds him and he comes back to life.

And then when he returns to the main jail, this this older Tibetan llama is imprisoned. And this older llama is like this really intense guy, this awakened teacher. But he starts kind of like whipping all these other Tibetan teachers into shape. Like basically like scolding them like you can’t act like this. This is not what the dharma is.

and he starts teaching them Mahammudra and Zochan, but it’s secret. They’re not allowed to meditate. So, they’ll have bathroom breaks and he’ll go give him 30 seconds of instruction. But his his life story is incredible because in the midst of prison, he starts awakening more and more and more. And he starts generating compassion for the guards more and more and more. And then at a certain point, if he rats out another person, they’ll let him leave. And he doesn’t care. He decides he won’t. He stays has to stay another 12 years in prison because of it. And he talks about at that point he didn’t care. He didn’t see any difference whatsoever. And he talks about how in his his his teacher had transformed his mind so much he viewed prison as a monastery and as a retreat as extended retreat and all the manual labor he had to do was his dharma practice you know. So I think from the Tibetan tradition they basically feel this person became a Buddha and he used those circumstances as leverage to awaken. So, but there’s a lot of these really amazing stories where again it’s quintessential vajriana. You’re transforming these circumstances into the path. So, again, I think there’s a precedent for some of this stuff. So, my small little contribution that we’re doing is is bringing some of these mental health and meditation programs to tablets. It’s a new program, but we’re getting unbelievable engagement. I’m kind of blown away. And to me, I think it’s because there’s such a hunger for it, you know, like they these people are hungry to heal and to to meditate and to have some peace. And you know, the other thing that’s been a a lesson for me,

like even today, I get some messages from some people that are kind of disturbing. So you I’ll have some variation. Sometimes it’s people sending messages or handwritten letters of how much this this work has helped them and gratitude and then getting messages of people that seem like they’re in psychotic states or trying to game the system or or so it’s it’s an interesting practice for me to try to uh have compassion and do the best that I can do but realize you know I’m just one person I can’t fix everything and also of boundaries and like really that how compassion needs boundaries And especially with this population, if you don’t have boundaries, you’re going to be in trouble very quickly. So, it’s again, it’s a new project, but it’s something I’m really drawn to. And uh yeah, again, that’s again what I think Buddhism is about. It’s not about some of the communities I like and have been a part of, but when it’s, you know, rich white people, you drive your Lexus to the retreat and you take a week and you, you know, have these wonderful experiences, that’s fine. That’s okay. I just think it needs the counterbalance of like you need to be willing to go into the muck and like the the depths of suffering and prisons are basically hell realms that are like all in our communities that we mostly shut out and so

yeah fantastic thanks for sharing that and doing that just to start wrapping up here I was curious of do you is there any in-person stuff too do you do that because we hear great stories from like the San Francisco Zen Center on is it San Quinton and things like this and if there there’s prison programs like you said I mean those have got to be probably pretty challenging to do in real life and and I I it’s great the the material I don’t even know I I’m I’m assuming that uh in addition to just paper books anymore they they allow certain material to go on tablets and you’ve designed you know DAMA programs specifically tailored or just mental health stuff in general to that but like do you do you feel that you know that there needs to be some human interaction or practice or do you think it’s you know like you’re like do you think the the the downsides uh that you’re getting with with these other types of leather letters could be kind of minimized or not set straight but like dealt with if if there was like a human presence too or you know do you think that that wouldn’t matter or that there’s so yeah comment on this I think yeah my view is any of these

things that I’ve done or been involved with or or other teachers, there’s there’s pros and cons to each approach. And the pro of the approach that we’re doing on the T tablets is reach where we as of today, we’ve had like 15,000 people have engaged in one of our programs and we’re like a few months in to launching. So, it’s like ridiculous how big the reach is. You know, again, I what helps me stay humble with all those things too is I didn’t design the delivery system or the T. So, it’s like I’m a really small part of that, but it it’s it’s just being pragmatic. You it helps a lot of people very quickly and there’s not a lot of boundaries to that and people can do it confidentially. That’s the other feedback we’ve gotten where prison is not a good place to be vulnerable. So, we have some courses we’ve made uh about the importance of vulnerability, but it’s different in a prison. So, it’s it’s uh prisoners can just have their headphones on and do it at night and no one needs to know that they’re exploring it. They’re like we have a course on PTSD. No one needs to know that they’re doing that. So that’s great. The con of it is I it I I don’t think it ever goes as deep as in person work. When I think about the most influential things in my life, it’s been relational. It’s been being in therapy with therapists that I’ve had a deep relationship with.

It’s been being on retreat and having personal interaction with the other students and teachers. So it’s it’s not something that the program has yet. It’s maybe down the road. So yeah, I think it’s just always a matter of scale versus depth. So, I don’t I don’t think self-guided practices ever go as deep as like a relational approach. That’s my view. But, you know, again, it’s it’s it works and it’s getting some people help, but I do aspire at some point to maybe build some more in person, but we’re not quite there yet. Well, right on one step at a time.

That’s right. And so, Bill, uh, thanks so thanks again so much for joining and and taking the time to speak with me today. Um, tell people how they can get in touch with you if you’re still taking on clients, uh, what you’re into. these days, what you might have be coming down the road here and what’s in the works.

Anything else you want to draw people’s attention to and then leave on a final message, please?

Yeah, I’m in transition with a lot of things right now. I’m very busy. I have a a three-year-old who takes up most of my free time, but we I have a website, Mixed Contemplative Arts, that I just built. So, the again, the first offering is a prison thing. So, we I did that intentionally where try to do something just that’s positive. We’re not making any money from it. It’s just it’s something that’s a charitable offering.

I still do do coaching. So that’s the coaching I do is integrating parts work and IFS and therapy techniques even though I’m not doing clinical therapy anymore and some meditation instruction.

Uh so people who are interested can reach out on just mixed contemplative arts.com.

I’m actually working on a book too, so that’s a subject for another day. I’ve wrote like 80% of it and then wrote one chapter that was different and was horrified to realize I think I was writing the book I didn’t want to write. So now like I’m repurposing a lot of it.

But that’s been really fun and exciting and that’s been a really big learning experience for me too of there’s some things I’ve written where I’ve realized wow I know this material way better than I thought I did and made me really confident. And there’s other things I’m like I don’t have a clue. I thought I knew this. I don’t know anything. So it’s it’s been interesting too just as a quick tangent this idea of in Tibetan Buddhism at least I don’t know if it’s in the Turvadan tradition but of the three types of learning and of hearing contemplating and meditating to me the writing is the contemplating piece has been has been really interesting I never thought of it like that but it’s it’s helping me put my own language to things and again finding the weak spots of my understanding. So yeah you know I’d encourage people to reach out. So I I don’t know if I have any grand final message or anything, but no, it’s been great chatting and uh yeah, again, I guess that this the thing that I’m really interested in is this intersection of different communities and different practices and that fidelity to what works more than just to what a tradition claims.

Totally. Yeah. And I would love to see some more of this debate culture, however you want to frame it, integrated more into dharma places and dharmic. I think it’s a fascinating idea. I was always captivated by seeing monks do that in videos and stuff and of course I I loved engaging in Dhma friends with just all kinds of different ways of practice and I don’t want to say doctrine but you know just different understandings and where there’s differences and similarities and you know what I’ll stand up for and what I won’t stand up for and things like this and and how it all applies to daily life too. So yeah, it’s a it’s a rich area that’s continually being developed. Well, thanks again, Bill, for joining.

And may everybody out there, may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free. Bye, everybody.

Yeah. Thank you for having me. My pleasure.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

In this forty-sixth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion this time keeping on with a kind of 37 theme from last month’s “The 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva” and now to the 37 Factors of Awakening from the Theravada tradition essential to realizing awakening. We approach these in a non-systematic manner to see what insights and wisdom come up from our studies, experiences and practices while spending more time towards the end on various perception of the physical body including death and decay of the body. As usual we invite questions and comments live, beforehand and after.

Not mentioned in the show: I was later taught that ideally — and eventually, practically too — all these factors need to be cultivated together

The 37 factors of enlightenment in Theravada Buddhism are essential teachings that guide practitioners toward spiritual development and liberation. These factors are categorized into several groups, each contributing to the path of awakening.

*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*

Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.

For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.

Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”

Past chats with Wendy:

Full Verbatim Transcript (with timestamps removed and perhaps minor corrections via ai):

Hey, folks. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and I’m joined by Wendy Nash once again. Wendy, what’s going on?

Well, I’m here on Gabbie Gabbie country in Queensland in Caboolture as usual. What’s going on? I was in an expo this morning about well-being. I gave a mindfulness session. So, do you know how many people came along? How many, Wendy? Zero.

I guess everybody’s completely well.

That’s great. Yeah. Well, you know, I’m not sure that’s quite how it works, but it’s not—it’s a very poor community, so I don’t think that’s going to be the case. It’s more just it’s not the right time and place. And I think that’s the thing about meditation, you know, sometimes people just aren’t ready for it. And that’s just how it is. You know, it took me I think five years or something, three years before I decided, oh yeah, I’m ready now. So, yeah.

You know, that’s a really good point. And I’ve now been meditating with people from Buddhist countries and things and actually from what I understand a lot of folks from Buddhist countries, a lot of them don’t even meditate either. You know, it’s purely kind of devotional and dāna and sīla is a practice, you know, ethics. And so I guess it is more rare than we want to believe even though there’s supposedly a huge Western mindfulness craze. You know, I guess it is what it is. And yeah, so today’s session we’re going to—I mean, you know, well, this is kind of unusual because I don’t normally do themes and things but since we did 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva last time I thought 37’s an interesting number. There’s another number I know, 37, and it’s called the 37 Factors of Awakening. And in Buddhism there’s a lot of lists and so this is no exception. In fact, this is kind of a super list of lists of lists type of thing. So, let me just read the little introduction I have here again.

In this 46th installment on the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion. This time, keeping on with a kind of 37 theme from last month’s the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva like I just mentioned and now to the 37 Factors of Awakening from the Theravada tradition, essential to realizing awakening. We will likely just approach some of these in a non-systematic manner to see what insights and wisdom come up from our studies, experiences, and practices. As usual, invite questions and comments live and after.

So, I’m just going to put this graphic on the screen if that’s cool. I brought up an AI LLM version, so it may be contentious, but it’s quite interesting. It’s done the 37 Factors and I’ve got—and it’s come to 37 which is good.

Mhm.

So we can talk about it. Oo that’s very pretty.

This—who I need to give credit to whoever this is. Actually it’s their little thing on the side. So hopefully I can use that. These are jayanta.tumblr.com.

Yes. So j-a-y-a-n-t-h-a.

That is the creator, not us. And hope if there’s any trouble using this, please let me know and I will try to take it off. These factors are of course in the public domain. They’re not, you know, there’s no copyright on the actual factors themselves. So yeah, where to start on this? You know, of course we’re not going to do this comprehensively. We could probably do an entire talk on each individual one of these. But since we already started with meditation and mindfulness, how about sati or mindfulness itself? I mean that’s kind of—unless Wendy has other ideas. I’m open to it because I don’t really have any—well, the way it’s listed here. I don’t know if it’s listed in a particular order but it says four foundations of mindfulness. So it starts with mindfulness of the body and then of mindfulness of vedanā, mindfulness of mind and then mindfulness of the dharmas. So I don’t know—has it got in that lovely beautiful amazing—

Yes it does. That’s the satipaṭṭhāna. So the four foundations of mindfulness—it’s top center. So in pink in the top center: contemplation of body, feelings, mind and mind objects.

So yeah the one with sati of course this mindfulness—it goes over various lists. So on the left you know the seven factors of awakening we have at the top sati and then we have the mindfulness of all these four factors and then the next one you know noble eightfold path, right mindfulness is the seventh one and let me see if there’s any other—yeah and so the five indriya spiritual faculties which turn into the five powers on the bottom middle there of course there’s both mindfulness there and yeah so that one is a really important one that spans actually most of the lists other than the five spiritual powers, the iddhipāda and the four right efforts. But I think it’s interesting with the four right efforts because two are about stopping, not doing things and two are about doing things. That’s a really nice—because there is something about, you know, you don’t ever—today with children you don’t smack children, which is good. I don’t believe in punishment, but there’s—for some people it’s actually very hard if they don’t have a firm boundary. And in Tibet they smack children. Most places they smack children. But I mean not places that I, you know, want to hang out in, I’d be honest. But there is something about you need to find a way to do—to not do something as well as how you need a bit of carrot and stick I guess.

Yeah. Saying carrot and stick.

Yeah, exactly. And this is really important to Wendy. Your audio is coming in just a little bit hot. I think I don’t know if that’s—

Is that better if I do it like that? It’s a little bit—it’s still just a little bit loud, but let me see.

Maybe it’s just on my end, too. But let’s—while you look at that. Yeah, that’s it. It could be also because I’m—it’s early in the morning here and I still haven’t completely—speaking of awakening factors here.

You know, let’s just take this example of hitting children. And it’s a really—I think it’s a really important one. And from what I understand, if I’m getting this right, it is illegal in Denmark even to spank a child, you know, and yeah, you know, and maybe it’s a little bit too personal or something, but I mean, I still was spanked as punishment as a child. And I don’t see any reason why it’s helpful at all really. You know, I mean, maybe there could be. You know, I think our folks were doing the best they can, but you know, there’s so many better ways to, I think, instill better behavior in children than that. To me, it just seems like there’s a lack of parenting skills and laziness. But, you know, maybe that’s not possible for some people. I don’t know. Wendy, I want to hear what you have to say about this because I don’t—

Okay, so there’s some—we’re getting away from the 37 Factors of Awakening, but it is about mindfulness and it is about skill.

So I guess there’s a class dimension here. So in poor communities, they often will use corporal punishment and often the stakes are higher. So it’s a more complex picture. They often don’t have the same sense of physical safety, you know, they often do physical jobs and they often do, you know, that their housing isn’t so good, the streets are more dangerous, that sort of stuff. Whereas in wealthier neighborhoods, it tends to be more use of reasoning and stuff, but their environments are not so dangerous. So there’s—I think that it’s important to—if something is dangerous to just kind of stop it happening. Some child’s putting their hand on the hot plate. I’ve done that, you know, straight away.

I do—I mean I don’t like it when someone hits me. I don’t think it gives a good result. But I—I’m also not a parent or a teacher and having to deal with ratbag kids and I think some kids if they have corporal punishment at home and a lot of violence and then they go to school and they don’t get any corporal punishment then I think there can be a kind of “I can get away with it, nothing’s going to happen to me” and that can be very disruptive for other people in the class. So, I think it’s more—I think it’s important to put nuance in.

Yeah. No, these are really good points that I haven’t really considered before. And of course, yes, if something is a dire consequence and force needs to be used, I guess, to protect their life. I mean, obviously that, you know, if some situation is going to save the kid’s life versus, you know, just causing short-term harm, then yeah, that seems obvious to do. I don’t know if that comes in this situation, but along those lines, right? Yeah. And like you said, it depends, I guess, how old the kid is, too, you know, and you talking about teenage kids. Yeah. Like you put a scenario there.

Depending on the background and who they are, they might not respect anything other than physicality, physical responses and harm like that in order to have some kind of boundary. That might be the only boundaries they respect is physical boundaries. And at the same time I wonder, you know, if just the psychological means and, you know, language can be really strong and harm some people too. But again if they’re not responsive to that. So this goes back to right conduct we’re talking about here and this is foundational even before the factors of awakening. So you know this comes in as a prerequisite I would say and it comes along with right effort too, right, about preventing unskillful things and actually eradicating unskillful things, you know. So I would definitely—this is—when those of us who are involved with other beings, if we think that that’s the only possible response, well maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. Yeah like Wendy said it is a lot more nuanced. So when we bring wise effort and wise action. Wise effort and of course this is an internal aspect of it too. Yeah.

Yeah. So the next four were bases of spiritual power which was desire or intention. Chanda which is a very bad word in Australia.

Chanda. I don’t know if you know what it means.

No. I don’t know if it’s appropriate for you to tell me either.

Well actually we’re all adults here.

But it comes from—it comes from like “watch under.” So what it’s to do with apparently if you’re not feeling well and you become—it’s like there’s an expression which is to chuck a chanda and that is to like watch under because bad stuff is coming your way. So chanda is a very Australian term for vomiting.

I didn’t know that. Yeah.

Yeah. Learn something new. I love slang idioms. Yeah.

Okay. Viriya is energy or persistence and mind or collectedness is citta. Okay. And investigation is vīmaṃsā.

Yes. And I’ve actually done like a six-part series on these iddhipāda, these four bases of success of spiritual power. And actually these qualities are needed too to really accomplish anything in life to be successful and stuff. So speaking—I’ll just play on your thing—chanda this coming forth. So anything we have to be interested in it. We have to want to do it. And so there’s a nuance between craving and a sensual desire and an actual desire like chanda, a wholesome thing to want to engage in something wholesome and see it kind of come to fruition and completion and engage in it because if we’re not even interested in anything we’re not really going to have a chance to engage in it and develop it. It does take a wholesome healthy desire to get into it. Yeah.

Yeah. So the next ones are the five faculties which is conviction or faith, saddhā. We got viriya again. Yes. And sati and sati mindfulness, concentration samādhi and discernment or wisdom paññā. So well a couple of things because concentration—it took a long time that it’s not like a really tight focus. It’s like concentration. So, it’s about centering in amongst this kind of about the eye of the storm. It was very interesting when I was in Amsterdam on an insight dialogue retreat just as the pandemic was opening—like starting—and we had to go home early because they’d stopped all the planes and of course in Australia to get from Amsterdam it’s a big paddle home. So, excuse me.

And but I had this because I was going what’s samādhi and I just had this really clear experience of that whirlwind. So yeah, it’s very interesting. Yeah, it’s like I’ve been doing this samatha practice for the past few years of cultivating, you know, getting towards higher and higher or I wouldn’t say higher and higher maybe access concentration and yeah a lot of people don’t like this word concentration as a definition for samādhi but I like Wendy’s definition of it too because in the West we think we have to really bear down really be tight and do it really—but that’s not what we’re talking about when it’s—that’s a whole other nuance conversation, but I think Wendy’s is going to go is on a roll here to do like an overview before we dive into any specifics. Yeah.

So, I prefer discernment to wisdom. I think wisdom is too much. I am the grand old wise woman. And I think you know we’ve got a whole thing in our society about being clever. And I think it sort of feeds into that big ego kind of my magnanimous capacity to bestow my wisdom onto you and I just go yeah. Anyway, so I think discernment is better because that’s about what do you—it is about assessing kind of where are we at? It’s about evaluating and yeah discern—can’t go wrong with discernment. I love that word too. Very very helpful. I will—I just want to make a distinction between cleverness though. I used to value cleverness really high before I got into all this, you know, what can I—how can I show off how smart and what I can get away with, you know, and how stupid other people are, how sharp I am or whatever. So I was—and then even they used to call like people into magic and stuff like that clever people or clever, you know, or something like that. So that’s not what I mean when we talk about wisdom—that’s not what I think wisdom is, you know, but Wendy makes a valid point here because yeah it can get into that—it can get into this thing. No, how I look at this is like, okay, this is from basically skillfulness and understanding and response from experience, not from a book, not from me wanting to show off or get ahead, but like this is using discernment for wise and helpful action. But anyway, yeah, we can just use discernment. I like that one, too.

That’s really good. So I looked up the etymology of both the word prajñā or paññā. Yeah. Paññā sorry. No no no no it’s Sanskrit. So prajñā is the Sanskrit version of it. Yeah. And Pali is paññā. So it comes from—so in Sanskrit it’s knowing clearly, knowing fully, understanding distinctly and that’s not wisdom in our kind of idea. So I quite like that one. Discernment in English comes from to be able to separate so distinguish one thing from another.

Yes.

So and it’s interesting because I was actually listening to Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu recently about no-self. Maybe we’ll get back to that one.

Sure. But it’s just mentioned here—Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu’s frequent translation of paññā as discernment quite revealing. They meet in something very close to what Buddhist practice asks you to do rather than merely knowing Buddhist propositions. You become increasingly able to distinguish things with experience. For example, what leads to suffering and what leads away from it. What is skillful? What is unskillful? What is intention and what is result? What am I adding to an experience that isn’t inherent in the experience itself. So I think that’s quite a nice way of exactly directly from our experience.

Yeah. And I and he’s also known as Ajahn Geoff and I listen to his daily dharma talks. They’re only like five minutes long sometimes and the evening ones are only like 10 probably 15 under 20 usually and yeah it’s just he just packs so much good stuff in there and so wise of course he’s a prolific translator as well. So yeah pointing to our direct experience of knowing this—we hear about it but then we know from our own lived life of the things. Yeah.

I’ll have to get to Ṭhānissaro. You’ll have to send it to me after.

Sure. Sure. Sure. I just think—yeah. I’m really interested because oh, he’s really—I haven’t heard those that side of things before. Yeah.

Yes. And he’s also very practice-oriented and in his situ practice as well in some of these, but then he works in different small themes as well. Really bite-size for today as well. Yeah, I just wanted to throw in a disclaimer here that yes, unfortunately you have to listen to me talk about the 37 Factors of Awakening from my own limited experience. I’m not saying that you know if you can tune in to some folks or some venerables who actually have a higher level of realization than me, please do. But this is from my own enthusiasm and wanting to talk about where I am now, no matter how distorted or far away that is. So yeah, exactly. We’re all in this together. That’s right.

So I think the next one is the five powers. These are the same five qualities once they have become strong and difficult to shake.

Yes. So when they’re fully developed the conviction, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. Yes.

So there you are. So I think yeah well you know later when I—you know, they clearly don’t—I don’t think the Buddha had a smartphone back in the day to kind of make him go like this. That’s what we have to deal with.

It’s a different time. You know if we were better off then we would all be enlightened. But now there’s more for us to do I would think compared to back then. But yeah, that’s the goal though of awake. Yeah, seven factors of awakening are mindfulness, investigation of dhammas. So I think I might need a bit of exploration, energy, rapture or joy, pīti, tranquility, concentration, equanimity. So I’m just going to get all those translated.

There’s different ideas of dhammavicaya, investigation of dhammas. I would, you know, one way to maybe oversimplify this if I’m hitting the mark is just contemplation of everything we’re talking about here. You just bring one of these to mind and then you see what comes up. There’s probably way more systematic ways to do this, but it’s just being curious and investigating all the dhammas is just basically all these different—so let’s see where is the other one—investigation of phenomena, analysis of qualities, discrimination of dhammas—this one becomes especially interesting given the question about paññā. Vicaya means investigation, examination, discrimination or analysis. It comes from a verb concerned with sorting out, examining and distinguishing. Dhamma here is difficult to capture with one English word. In this context, it can refer to the qualities, principles or phenomena being examined in experience, particularly in terms of what is skillful and unskillful and what leads where. So rather than vaguely observing phenomena, think examining experience to understand what’s actually going on. There is curiosity in it, but discriminating intelligence as well.

And then they’ve got viriya, joy. Pīti which is—and then passaddhi which is tranquility and then samādhi which is concentration and then upekkhā which is equanimity. And ah so there is another important structure within them. The early texts treat investigation, energy and pīti as relatively activating factors useful when the mind is sluggish. Tranquility, samādhi and equanimity are relatively calming factors useful when the mind is agitated. Sati is useful throughout. So awakening isn’t being conceived simply as being calm and calm. There is something much more dynamic going on. Investigate, energize, settle, collect, balance. That makes dhammavicaya particularly interesting in light of what we were just discussing about paññā. The path continues a very explicit place for inquiry and discrimination rather than asking you to simply remain passively aware of whatever arises.

Yes, these are classically known as balancing the energizing factors of viriya and pīti and dhammavicaya because these are activating energizing things and then the other three are the tranquilizing—tranquility itself, concentration, equanimity—and then balanced by sati mindfulness. It’s like they say those are like three horses on each side pulling a chariot and mindfulness keeps them in sync. This kind of the classic thing. But I just wanted to say the dhammavicaya investigation of dhammas—really important that it does lead towards skillfulness and not away from skillfulness and these investigation of dhammas if we look at this other four foundations of mindfulness the contemplation of mind objects that fourth one there is a list of five other lists and so yeah if you—that would be another good thing to apply investigation of dhammas to these five lists on that one. So, yeah, some of these have lists within lists within lists.

Now you tell me. Yeah. Right. Right. Now you tell me.

Well, we’ll have to—let’s do one of those lists.

Okay. Well, I’m not getting in the right orders, but then some of these overlap as well because one of those lists is the four foundations—I mean, sorry, the four noble truths. Right. And so going back again that would be on this list of lists that would be the noble eightfold path the fourth one anyway. So but then the other one—another one in that is again another cross reference would be those four—those seven factors of awakening that we just—that Wendy just talked about. That’s another list on there. And then we have the four right efforts. Again that’s another list. So these are kind of nested and overlapped. And then oh I’m—the noble eightfold path.

So right view, intention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and concentration.

But I’m curious about so where does the four noble truths fit? I’m curious. Probably says well duh right at the very beginning numbskull.

No no no it’s the four noble truths is contained in that satipaṭṭhāna mind objects. Let me just get the list of the other ones I’m missing but they pretty much they pretty much overlap quite a bit but—

So it says here dukkha, samudaya, nirodha and magga. So dukkha is stress, suffering, dissatisfaction. Samudaya is origination, the arising or the cause of dukkha. Nirodha is cessation, the ending of dukkha. Magga is the path the way leading to cessation. Which one’s that Wendy? What list is that? That’s the four noble truths.

Oh, interesting. I never heard those terms given like that. Okay.

Yeah. Each truth asks you to do something different. So dukkha—what identifies it is suffering and stress. The task is to comprehend it. Samudaya identifies the origination. So abandon it. Nirodha which is its cessation is to realize it and magga is the path.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We’re just using the Pali terms here. My bad. Okay. So out of all these factors that we’ve talked about here, of course, I think sati is probably one of the most important ones, but it’s because it is like a regulating factor and I don’t know if we’ve done a show at all just on mindfulness itself, but yeah,

Your audio—I can’t hear your background anymore. I don’t know if I can—No. No, you just muted it. That’s why. So I did—I muted it. I filled up my water bottle. Cool. Cool. Let me, you know, I’ve got a draft of a post on like mindfulness because some people—it’s a big topic and I think a lot of people have different definitions of it. I don’t know if we want to drill too far into it today, but maybe I’ll just ask Wendy, what do you—when people say mindfulness, what does that mean? What does that mean to you?

Yeah. You know, it’s one of those words that means many things. You know, it’s like a blue sky. What does that actually mean? A green tree. What does that actually mean? Like I—it’s not a good word at the best of times. So, let me look up the etymology of words particularly in foreign languages because I think that tells you so much more. So tell me the etymology of the word sati because I think it’s not mindfulness.

Yeah that was applied early on actually—memory. Mhm. Remembering. Yeah. Yeah. Recollection.

So call to mind. I think that’s a nice way of boiling—to call to mind. Mhm.

So I’ve heard so many different definitions of this over the years and a lot of them are really good. I mean, one of the other ones I like, some of them combine a lot of things, but bringing something to mind and turning it over and over in the mind, keeping it in mind, you know, keeping it there and then just continually going over it and over and over with the mind like on one topic. So, yes, the ability to bear something in mind. But I also like this notion of memory. There’s an old story about this woman named Sati and I don’t even know the whole story well enough to say it but it involves grieving and throwing oneself into a funeral pyre over grief and yeah so that’s maybe for another time but I think some people say that it was—this word was based on that or a reimagining or repurposing of this tragic tale to remember and of course there’s a huge remembering element in this story as well. Another way—the another one I like is bodyfulness. I mean this is a Gil Fronsdal translation of Dharma teacher and he says bodyfulness which I think is really interesting too because instead of just the mind you know we got the four foundations of mindfulness and the body. So I’m going to throw it back to Wendy here for a little bit.

So Sati—a useful modern rendering might therefore be sati the capacity to remember to remain attentive to what is relevant.

Yes relevant that would also go along with keeping something in mind. So yeah it’s—so what Wendy mentions there I think is a more practical application of it. So then that also involves discernment. Well what is really relevant to pay attention to? There’s a Zen saying the most important thing is to remember the most important thing. But it can also be a contemplative type thing where I choose whatever—choose the topic and then I keep that in mind in order to train the mind to stay with one, you know, one thing and go deep on that. But also when I’m moving in the world, like Wendy said, okay, what’s relevant to pay attention to here? And then I can do that.

Yeah. So I looked up the Pali word sati. So I looked up about a woman throwing herself on the pyre in grief. So I looked it up.

So the Sanskrit word for sati is a good or virtuous or faithful woman or wife.

Yes. And this involves supposedly a woman named Sati. And I need to find the story here a bit.

So this sati became associated with a historical practice in which a widow died on her husband’s funeral pyre. Interestingly Oxford’s discussion points out that the Sanskrit sati originally referred to the woman not the practice itself. The English usage shifted the meaning so that sati came to mean widow self-immolation.

It’s also the goddess Sati. Yes in Hindu mythology Sati is the wife of Śiva. Her father Daksha holds a great sacrifice and excludes or insults Śiva. Sati is so distressed and outraged by her father’s treatment of her husband that she immolates herself in the sacrificial fire. Śiva then grieves intensely for her. So she doesn’t throw herself onto her husband’s funeral pyre because Śiva isn’t dead. There is however an older funerary tradition involving widows and pyres. Intriguingly scholarship on the Ṛgveda suggests an early ritual in which a widow lay beside her dead husband on the funeral pyre and was then called back to the world of the living rather than being burned. Oxford notes that this makes the relevant Vedic passage very poor evidence for actual widow immolation in the early Vedic period. So I was mixing my metaphors here, but I was close. So there is—they are linguistic false friends as you would say.

So we’ve got the goddess story and we’ve got the traditional practice there. But I think maybe the Buddha repurposed this even or drew on that to say, you know, pay attention. This is important, you know. Yeah.

So now I’ve read all of them, I think, haven’t I? Yes, you have. I’m pretty sure.

Yes. So when it comes to practice because we’re about practicing meditation, what is useful to know here, what is useful to engage with and that I guess depends on each person. But given how unenlightened we are and how far we are from being awakened well I guess where do you begin and how do you know when you’re kidding yourself because I always think that’s the thing that’s so important to know is because totally of the two witnesses trust the principal one you kind of know when you’re kidding yourself but you also kind of can get really deluded. So yeah, what are your suggestions?

And the mind is very clever to use that word again and it knows no shame and it can also come up with lots of fabrications real easily and the perceptual apparatus is not always reliable either. So yes so the Buddha highly praised of course mindfulness of the body. So if we look at the satipaṭṭhāna these are—there’s two lists in the Pali or two kind of suttas or two practices we should say that we get more detail on and one is satipaṭṭhāna the four ways to attend to mindfulness four foundations of mindfulness the four establishments of mindfulness however we want to translate it and then we have ānāpānasati mindfulness of breathing those where we get a little bit more detailed ones but the Buddha praised mindfulness of body so much throughout the entire—I mean almost so much all the time and this and we were talking about mindfulness so it’s this is the four ways to use mindfulness to attend to things that are important so I would think this applies not only to meditation but outside of meditation into daily life because if we look at just getting into mindfulness of the body there’s six ways that are elaborated to do that you know so those can be applied pretty much every time unless we’re sleeping. So we’ve got—and just to run those down of course breath is included in that. Then we’ve got our mindfulness of postures. So we more or less are in four different postures all the time. Sitting, lying down, standing and walking variations of that. Then the next one is like throughout daily life like reaching your arm, going to the bathroom, chewing food—kind of a proprioception knowing where various areas of the body are at a time and bringing awareness to that. Then we can look—then we can split it into different elements the four elements. Oh, which one? I’m missing one here. And then there’s also—oh, 32 parts of the body before that if we’re going in order. So, that’s just carved up the body in 32 different ways to explore what’s going on in her body. The outside ones that we can see with our eyes or our head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, and skin, and eyes. And then we’ve got these cemetery contemplations, which if we read those, I don’t know if there’s seven of them, they’re really can be really grotesque and very disgusting, but that’s kind of the point to really kind of shock ourselves in some sense into knowing that, oh yeah, this body that we’re lugging around is going to be of the same nature to do that given the right conditions, you know. So this one really brings me in my body. And of course this is to realize the immediacy of our experience that how much we’re taking for granted and how much we’re really not aware that this body is going to come to an end state and it will be—it will return to these four elements eventually.

So yeah it’s very interesting. So I was just looking here and the four elements are earth, water, fire and air. And then the cemetery contemplations are nine stages of decomposition. There’s nine of them. So I then looked that up which was recently dead and beginning to decay. So just one two three days dead being eaten by animals. A skeleton with flesh and blood. A skeleton with blood but little or no flesh. A skeleton without flesh or blood. Scattered bones. Bones bleached white. Bones heaped together and aged. Bones crumbling to dust. After each contemplation comes essentially the same recognition. This body too is of the same nature. It will become like that. It is not exempt from that fate. And it was very interesting sort of looking—hearing you talk about it and then looking a little bit to the notes here and just going, you know, because I think like every woman and probably most guys, you know, like the sort of sense of self-loathing about the body, the body and the parts of the body being so hated. I hate my arms or I hate my backside or I hate my tummy or you know and there’s something about what you were saying which was really made me think about so one time when I was a young woman I was on the train and I could hear this sort of self-criticism about my body and how much I hated my body and so I thought okay well I’ll start at the top and I’ll go all the way down and I’ll go, is there one place that I like in my body—one? And I got to the end and I went, no, none of it. And I went, well, that’s a big waste of effort. Like, just imagine hating your body that so intensely. And at the time, I was quite a babe actually. So, I look back like I should show you a photo, but I was a total babe at the time. And I thought, wow. Like now I look back and I go, wow. But it’s very interesting because here I still am not very comfortable with my body. And I still don’t sit there kind of going, well, actually, this is something I should treat preciously. But I go, ah, yeah, I wish I could lose weight, and I wish I was more toned, and I wish I wish I wish I wish. And then I look around, you know, at the community and poor community, you know, you get lots of health issues. And I was at this well-being expo at the local neighborhood center today and there were two women who I know a little bit. He said, oh, you’re a snob. You don’t say hello. I was like, I always say hello when I see you. Don’t be ridiculous. Anyway, and they had both had breast cancer. So, they were flat and with sort of with gaps with a big pot belly out the bottom and they had lots of like walking issues and lots of lots of problems. And if I look around, generally I’m sort of in the right height, weight range for my age and physique. And yet I’m somehow got this idea of, oh, I need to lose 3 kilos and I need to be more toned and if only I did this and if only I did that. You know the little mara—never good enough, never good enough, never good enough. Doesn’t matter what you’ve got, you never good enough, never good, never. And it’s like well a it’s a waste of effort but gee it’s so heavily lodged in the mind and in our environment and yeah wow what a waste of effort it is and there’s so many distortions.

It’s the other way around too because with like narcissism, right? Oh, I look so amazing. Oh, I’m so like buff, bro. Or like I, you know, I’m so good-looking. And you know, guys are a little bit more comfortable walking around naked, too. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to say that, than females.

Yeah. And there’s—there’s a whole—there’s so many complications around this. There’s body dysphoria. I think that’s a thing too, you know, and the huge amount of the beauty industry I think with females, right? And maybe it goes beyond that of like you’re—I mean, how could they sell products if everybody was satisfied with, you know, comfortable with how they looked? Nobody would buy their stuff. So, they have to constantly compare like unrealistic basically models that are, you know, airbrushed and manipulated in their image. That’s not how they actually look either. So then nobody can—they compare people compare themselves to that and they’re not good enough. But if you buy this product then maybe you can do that. If you do this exercise, if you do this gym membership, if you do this treatment, if you know—so yeah, it’s this constant thing and I think it’s preyed upon by people that want money as well. But like that’s one thing and then I think another thing is like how much is ever enough you know will it ever be good enough? So actually some of these practices that we just mentioned and the way Wendy read is a little bit more sanitized because some of the translations I heard like a festering livid corpse, a bloated a hacked and scattered corpse. You know, these are very graphic images and they’re almost like, oh my gosh, this is like—and death is so overly sanitized in the West, too. Like you nobody gets to see it. They’re rushed away. They’re embalmed. They’re put makeup on if you even get an open casket and things like that anymore or it’s burnt right away. And so yeah, this is a—and we don’t really have kind of a lot of history of different practices and ways of being around death. I guess it’s getting a little bit better. So this is a huge topic here. But I think what the important thing I want to more distill it down to is like how do we work with this in meditation practice. I would say this isn’t for everybody. But it can also—somebody that’s really attached to beauty and like and health and things. This maybe can be helpful—maybe that’s a little bit egotistical. This could be helpful of like this body inside of it is really filthy and it’s going to die. But some people that might distress and they might get without the right guidance and the way to do that they might get freaked out and there’s stories in the canon of doing this. So, and then to tie back into a previous question when he said, how do we know when we’re deluding ourselves? How do we know kind of how much progress we had? And the easy answer to this and easy way out is have a teacher because, you know, I practiced really long without a teacher and it was great, but then I did—I had no idea that there’s so much more. Well, I did, but the really vast details of how much more there can be as well. And also it’s okay to have one teacher for a while and or study in one lineage or group and then let go of that or stay in that and then have another teacher and hopefully we can surpass our teachers. That would be great too, I think. But okay, so back to mindfulness of these—these cemetery contemplations as they’re known to. Is there anything else or around the body as well? I think this is—I was actually I got a bit distracted because before the American Civil War it was generally women who cared for what happened after death and then during the Civil War there weren’t enough women and so men took over. So I just—and then it became paid and then it became big business. So now you know the whole—it’s a huge huge business with shareholders and it’s very predatory. It’s really awful. So, there was a much—so that was my argument and then the AI LLM said there was a much bigger transformation underway. Industrialization, urbanization, hospitals, professionalization, changing ideas about expertise, commercial undertaking, and embalming were all shifting death out of the household. The Civil War greatly accelerated and popularized that process rather than being single-handedly creating it. And there is something rather striking about this in relation to what we’re discussing about the cemetery contemplations. For most of human history, and certainly for many women in pre-industrial communities, a decomposing body wasn’t necessarily as culturally remote as it is for many of us. Birth, sickness, dying, and preparing the corpse happened much closer to ordinary domestic life. So when an early Buddhist text says essentially look at this body and remember that this body is the same of nature, our reaction to that instinct may be substantially different from that of people for whom washing, handling, witnessing dead bodies was an ordinary part of community life.

See, and we—I never heard this before. I didn’t know that a Civil War was the demarcation point in the West because we don’t—I didn’t hear accounts before that of anything that they’re closer to the dead bodies and things like that. You know, that would be interesting to hear some interesting historical accounts in the West of how that was. But yeah, and I grew up—my dad was a hunter and before I started waking up a little bit, I did some of that unfortunately too. And so I saw animals being skinned and cut up and gutted and things like that. So that’s quite a trip to lay on a young person, I think, perhaps. But I do have a really visceral experience with stuff like that. There’s roadkill in the Midwest of America. It’s very common to see dead animals being run over by cars. And I had a friend whose dad was an undertaker, too. So that was a really interesting mindset and group of people that got together. And so yeah, so I did have a little bit more experience with this than I think the average Midwesterner growing up. As well, I don’t know if that helped me. Maybe in the long run, in the short term, maybe not as much. It’s really hard to know because there’s so many different causes and conditions having so many different effects. So we do build roads in the middle of nature. So of course we build it and then you know these poor animals are such at the mercy of our heinous transport system—we’re going to wrap up a little bit earlier today so we’ll start winding down but I also wanted to say this since we’re on this practice from what I understand in ancient India and stuff and I think it still goes on today in some areas that the people that couldn’t be afforded a cremation or a burial they just chuck their body in this area called a charnel ground and they just sat in there and the animals or whatever nature just had their way and that’s how they got rid of the body. They didn’t do anything else in that. But then some monastics or sāmaṇeras and you know ascetics they would go and go there to practice to see this and to be close to death so to speak and practice with it. Today I don’t know it would be weird I think if somebody was sitting at—No, you can still sit in cemeteries. You just—I guess you just couldn’t set up shop there and just meditate for hours and hours and hours, especially in the middle of—I’m sure that there are meditation centers that do go to cemeteries. I feel uncomfortable about that only because I feel that there—this kind of voyeurism about people’s lives I don’t feel comfortable about. So there’s a sort of cemetery tourism which I don’t like. Yeah. What’s respectable and we’re talking about Native American cultures and native cultures, you know, they took this stuff really seriously, you know. And like if we—people that are digging up remains and things for science, I don’t know how I feel about that too. It just—yeah, there’s, you know, what is proper respect for the dead, too? You know, what is it? It’s interesting. So, there’s a program called Alone. I think there’s an American one and a Danish one and there’s an Australian one and there was a woman who won it a couple of years ago called Gina Chick and she had a very—she was very much sort of connected to land. So she was coming from the earth. She approached it as very much as the land—we are part of the same thing. The land and me. We are all together in this. And so, and it was quite interesting because there was another fellow and he was fighting fighting fighting nature and he was getting skinnier and skinnier and sort of I would say the gods provided for her and treated her really well. And one night she got up and she went to the toilet and she sat down and all of a sudden there’s this wallaby and she gets it and she whacks it over the head just at a time when she really needed protein and she—oh wallaby is a small kangaroo by the way—and she got it and she skinned it and she was like you beautiful beautiful thing and she was so reverential and she skinned it and she but throughout she was incredibly deferential to this animal and I think that’s—that’s a sort of—I think that’s an interesting way to look at life and I and I think with the hunting experience I don’t have any qualms about you hunting as long as you were not just leaving it there to rot and it was just some disgusting thing hanging up from the roof—you from the wall you my little scary animal sticking out from the wall. But yeah, so I think it’s—

Yeah. Anyway, I you know, and this is the kind of the prevailing sentiment, but I will have to push back a little bit that the story that you told me—it was going along good until you said it killed something. And then to me, that’s a little creepy. That seems like the movie—what’s the one where the woman keeps the guy in her house and breaks his legs? The Stephen King novel. But I know what you—so like if somebody killed me and then was skinning me and then being really nice and, you know, like oh you had—you sort of had to see it. You sort of had to see it—it wasn’t creepy at all.

No I get—I’m not—I’m hopeless at killing anything. I’m vegan. Sure. Exactly. And that’s the main point. I don’t want to go into the weeds here, but the main point where I push back and disagree is is a really clear no killing. So that’s yeah, the skinning, the eating, that’s whatever. But it’s the killing. Now maybe it’s different if they have to survive. Like if you’re in the Arctic, I would be more willing to entertain killing something for survival when there’s no other options. But theoretically aside, my guess is, and I’m not passing judgment so much, it’s just like if there’s a way to survive without killing, then that seems the way to go for me. But I also agree. Yeah, of course. Yeah, we—you don’t waste things like that’s illegal for hunters anyway. But it is the intentionality to cause harm consciously to someone that that breaks the first precept and it’s not necessary either. And it’s more than likely going to have repercussions. You know what I mean? But the point I think you’re trying to make is being in—because this body is the four elements, right? It will go back to the earth, water, wind, fire. If we get away of all these perceptions, then those are the boiled down perceptions that are left. And this body is that—it will return to nature whether we wanted to or not. And I think with that, we’re going to wrap this up. And wrap it up quick. Sorry if I offended anybody out there. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Sorry, don’t write me hate mail.

Yes, please forgive us. We encourage you to watch that particular section. It’ll be somewhere out there in cyberspace. So, yeah, we’re open to exploring things. That’s how we develop our perceptions. So, yeah, that’s right.

All right. Thanks, guys. Have a great one. Bye.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

In this swapcast recorded near the Istituto Lama Tzong Khapa (ILTK) https://www.iltk.org Venerable Yudrön (Asokā) of https://youtube.com/@echoesandstoriesofdhamma and I talk a little Buddhist philosophy, monastic training, daily mindfulness practice, and navigating the spiritual path followed by an excerpt from a conversation with Venerable Tenzin Pamo who lives at ILTK

Many thanks to Venerable Yudrön for taking the time out to invite me to record, the sharing involved and the editting 

0:00 – Introduction & Welcome

02:30 – Life & Practice at ILTK

07:15 – Monastic Training & Community Dynamics

13:40 – Integrating Study & Daily Meditation

20:10 – Working Through Obstacles & Doubts

23:30 – Venerable Tenzin Pamo

Find more of Venerable Yudrön’s (Asokā) work at:

https://echoesofdhamma.wordpress.com

https://www.instagram.com/echoes_and_stories_of_dhamma

Timestamps removed from YouTube transcript with no edits via ai:

Hey, wholeness. Welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and today I’m joined by venerable Udrung. Venerable, how’s it going today?

Oh, it’s wonderful. It’s really wonderful. I’m fine. And um in a beautiful spot as well. You can see behind me.

Let me just let me just jump in real quick. We’re going to publish this on both integrating presence and echoes and stories of Dharma. So venerable, why don’t you explain what’s going on here?

I currently am in northern Tuskanyany at um the institut uh established 1976.

Uh the location is stunning. It’s on the

Tescan Hills and it’s a several century old castle refurbished and uh made

adequate for several monastic sana to to be settled here over

the years. Some resident teachers even have passed away already after staying here 27 30 years.

So institut is belongs to the galuk tradition of

Tibetan Buddhism and the idea in the beginning

was born uh by two masters uh lama who’s known because he wrote

this little book called when the chocolate runs out about happiness basically and uh Lama

and Lama both of them Tibetans who had escaped to Nepal

they both passed away. Lazopar passed away two years two almost three years ago in Nepal. He also was the one who

established Copan monastery on the hills of Kathmandu and Copan Nanary also on

the hills of Kathmandu in Nepal. And so the institute is celebrating this year his its 50th anniversary.

So there’s lots of activities and uh it’s a semi monastic and lay

institute. So it’s not a monastery but it functions as partial monastery with the lay community and there are

lots of activities um like secular Actually,

there also is a a teacher here who used to be in the

Thai forest tradition and knows uh Rampo.

It’s very vibrant and obviously it reminds me of how Cheetah

Monastery was established the same year in the UK.

Uh it has a bit of a similar energy inside.

I’ve been here 10 days and I set on a retreat

that also contains some teachings, some essential teachings, online training

and I have been blessed to be integrated in the nuns community.

So, and reconnect with nuns whom I had met in Bhutan last year in November.

It’s been very vibrant, very intense and beautiful and we also been blessed with beautiful weather. So, this is the end

of the summer in Tuskany and the air is very pure. also have recorded a number of interviews with some of the nuns and I found a beautiful community.

Some of them have had incredible uh journeys through the Himalayas.

Also, interestingly, the nuns community uh counts

14 months altogether and four monks in addition four western monks in addition to the the Tibetan teachers.

So there were more nuns [laughter] than monks, but it’s still not a monastery and it’s definitely not a nand.

So it’s been very it’s been wonderful actually to to listen to them and to to listen to their stories. So I will

integrate some of those uh interviews into our conversation as well.

And thanks for taking the time to uh do that. I’m looking forward to to to hearing all these. I mean that’s quite a

lot of work organizing and then you know almost kind of not convincing but you know and then taking the time and

everything like that. Um did you want to say anything about that or Yes. I real Yes. Actually it’s

interesting when we had the our our conversation last time I had this sense that I was sharing a lot. I’m not used to speak about my journey and my myself.

So I I had a suddenly a thought that hm maybe it’s too much of a personal story

and u and then I arrived here and all these nuns and the teachings and I

said said would you be willing to be part of my introduction to a podcast

where I was on conversation with a host who wanted to know about my journey.

Yes, please. [laughter] And I said and they asked then they said why would you like to do it under that format? I said well I I’m probably going

to use that those interviews in different formats but uh because I thought that I was talking

too much about myself but obviously it’s a paradox because the actual podcast what it was was my my journey and they

said but you know you have to remember that the conditions of the western nuns

in particular compared to other nuns in all traditions is is very specific because we need to find homes for

especially when we don’t speak Tibetan if you are in a Tibetan tradition and so people are interested to hear about

these stories and I said well then even more so I want to add some of some of your our story and I will do that it will require

some editing I’ve had interesting stories and and already I had one of my assumptions it’s not necessarily my own

assumption but it’s it’s a general assumptions that tends to to consider that women tend to ordain late later in life compared to

men. And there some of them have uh a full life not just the work but they have a husband and they have children

and then things happen and you know something causes and condition come together and they decide to become

monastics and the next day I met one of the nuns who arrived from India and she’s a tutor for the debating part of

the master program and I realized she ordained here when

she was 23. So she actually is the eldest in terms of years of ordination.

She’s not the eldest because she’s only 43. The eldest is is beyond 70.

But there are nuns here who have been ordained for 18 and 16, 17, 18, 19 years. So it’s a very particular

community. and all my assumptions or the general assumptions were like completely shattered [laughter] in on in many in many aspects. So it’s

it’s been extremely uh important for me to be here at this stage of my journey and at the

same time to hear those stories. The location here is quite stunning.

Yeah, big yeah as I say that’s that’s awesome. and some other synchronicities here. You know, I heard some uh construction in the

background there. Here I am at a public place u to I was just talking to a um a lay gentleman uh out in the Boston area

and he’s a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner and he’s like he wants to integrate or implement this debating culture uh

somehow in the United States and we were just talking how it is kind of the wild west for Dhamma in the United States

too. So there’s I I’ve talked to people at least in Europe there’s some kind of cultural memory of monasticism even if

it’s just Christian but there’s nothing like that in the United States. So it’d be interesting to see I know we we have some things in Colorado but that’s

that’s for maybe another time. There’s just uh yeah um established in university in um Boulder Colorado.

Yes. But but as far as uh you know it’s very very very new yet. So that’s that but that’s also a huge opportunity for

figuring it out and doing things new cuz as it moves uh it adapts to what what’s around it in some sense. You know what I

mean right? Um so so what what else would you like to share from there? Um you can see behind me here.

So the place is been really blessed. The Dalai Lama, his holiness, the Dalai Lama, I came here uh in 2014.

It’s not just an institute that just been popped popped out of nowhere, I would say. Although it’s in really in

the middle of it’s in a very awkward position in the sense that 20 minutes down the road there is a

highly popular beach and there is also a a chemical uh a chemical factory

uh who’s been established here early in the 20th century and

around surround here is agriurism wine production and things like this.

But we are also in the vicinity of Pisa and we are in the v vicinity of Florence.

So it’s it’s very special. There’s tupas all over the place and there’s there’s

um very large community around. People come from all parts of Italy and you there’s a very strong soul. I

would say it has it it has gone through challenges. It has gone through obstacles and difficulties obviously

over the years it’s 50 years this year but it it keep it keeps going.

[laughter]

It keeps going and also the other remarkable aspect is that it’s in Italy

the only institute semi- mononastic institute which organizes and offers

uh philosophy studies so studying Buddhism.

So there are different types of courses some of them are required to be on presence and some of them are both

online and presence. So there are just ABC of Buddhism if you really want to know about Buddhism. Uh uh there is a

master program. So what has happened is the geisha program. So to become a Buddhist philosophy teacher it takes

about 20 years. That’s what older Tibetan teachers have gone through. When you to be called a gish or to be called

a kempo, you have list not just being a monk for 20 years but you have studied the Buddhist philosophy which is

extremely intricated and complex. It comes from the Nanda tradition.

What is very unique here is that they have combined they have condensed that into

six to nine years and the beginning program is called the basic program and then there is a master

program master program runs for six years it’s everything of Buddhist philosophy starting with abidama kosha and

everything so it’s self-based and it can online and in presence and that’s unique because also the other

aspect that makes it unique is that it is uh connected with the universities of

Pisa. So at the University of Pisa you can take some of these courses as credits.

I think that’s great because I I hear some hesitation from people that have a hesitation to ordain is that oh what

happens if I ever disrobe then I have to start over from zero right? um which is it’s it’s to me it’s a false fear

because the comma that’s generated is so good you’re you’re going to be okay no matter what right however you know

that’s a nice addition I feel to that and I just wanted to comment real briefly on um our prior conversation

about um you know telling it from a personal aspect yes on one hand I agree you know we we both love dhamma topics

and it’s all about you know the impersonal truth of reality the way things are and how the heart is around

it. Of course, however, you know, not um people still connect to personal stories, right? And um ordaining is a

really is a really pivotal point in someone’s life uh that so many people can connect to that so many people can

be brought through the dharm dharma to dharmatu and be inspired by and within that that is a type of uh dharma

teaching in itself. So yeah, it’s a good practice to how to hold that. Yeah, cuz because I can see it both ways. Sure.

Pomaya, there is one bar, one grocery, which also has a bit of a

restaurant, also serves meals at meal time in town. And there is a salad tabaki, which is basically originally in Italy, the place where you would go and

buy your cigarettes, salt, pay the taxes, and essentials. is really very small. But it also this this morning I

bought something for the cats here because there’s also community of cats and he’s also operating like a tiny tiny

supermarket and there’s a church and that’s it. There’s nothing else. So it’s basically on the provincial road a few

houses and then there is there are two things more which are initiatives

at least one of them is the initiative of the institute there is a dharma outreach. So there is a

tiny uh window a door and a window in town which is called Dharma Point and

Dharma Point some of the monastic two female monastics and two male monastics one British monitalian

volunteer to go and do counseling so people can come in and so instead of having a proper trip see work there’s a

schedule and they are open at certain time and people can come in and ask and and you know uh there’s obviously bound by confidentiality and things like this.

So that’s called Dharma Point and next to it two two windows after uh there is a Buddhist uh publication

bookshop [laughter] they publish books and things like this.

So walking through the village, people say hello, people know this is for me as an Italian, it’s extremely awkward.

[laughter]

I’m I’m learning to to do this in Italy.

Anyway, so this is and then I think there is an opportunity. There are some some monastics are thinking of opening a

a death cafe. A death cafe would be something additional to the dharma point where people can start coming and

talking removing the taboo of talking about death. Something like this. So outreach activity. Yeah.

I thought a cat cafe was maybe overly novel but the death cafe. Yeah. I just I I have to watch myself. Sometimes I talk

about it and and people are like oh don’t say that don’t say that. No let me explain. Yeah. So that’s great to to

normalize that more you know and and just also to be precise the master program and the basic program is it’s open to lay and monastics right it’s

it’s uh it’s it’s not necessarily only for monastics but it’s actually there are more than monastics doing it and um

so Buddhist philosophy includes not just the texts and everything but it includes

the possibility of learning uh Buddhist logic, Buddhist region, Buddhist logic reasoning. So it’s called

valid cognition. How do you use the knowledge you have and how do you present a topic? How do you explain

impermanence? And how do you actually logically explain imper not just by saying give an example yeah you have a friend one day and you don’t have a

friend the next day blah blah blah but you actually use what the sages in India

dharmak have been using 3,000 years ago I mean that’s number one and this second

aspect is the debating. So now after I finish talking to you, I’m going to interview the nand who’s the youngest

one actually. She’s been ordained for the longest but she’s the youngest one who lives in India and he’s here because she’s a tutor in

debating and just I said I really want to I understand what you guys are talking when you have debating cuz I’ve

only seen debating ex witnessing debating in Tibetan in Daram Salah or somewhere you can see the debating and they you know they clapping their hand

and I understood what this clapping the hand is because she said yeah this is how it works is bas basically removing

I’m just removing the ignorance from you and I I bring out the wisdom out of you things like this. So

this is this is at the center of the Buddhist philosophy is how you present topics and how do you answer question by staying focused on topic.

Yeah. Yeah. I have I have a challenging time doing that too. Um, and you have to be familiar, I would imagine, in the debate with all the different opposing

schools and what their counter argument is going to be. And then you’ll have a counterargument to that counterargument.

But it will be it will be more spontaneous because you’ll just rely on your own innate wisdom eventually. You won’t have to even think about it. It

will just come out, you know, emerge from wisdom eventually. I think so. We can have another podcast in a year time. So I might be able to talk to

more about this when I finish this uh this module of the master program. One of the result of me being here is that I

said okay how can I do this because I really want to learn this and they said well you just enroll in the one module of the master program and you can do it

online and many people do it online. So this is what happens after an ordination. They say that

there’s a m there’s not just causes and conditions that made possible for you to ordain at a certain time but they it is

said that once you ordain please don’t make initial choices because things can go all over the place

because it’s like popping up a bubble water karma maturing or how do you say a

ripening it’s just and indeed it’s been like this I’ve been here only 10 days and I feel I’ve been here forever not

because it’s been boring but because it’s been extremely extremely productive and karmic seed were planted. Um it’s

part of the mind training right because the courses the course I’ve taken is mind training and as Buddhist when we talk we know that Buddhism is all about

mind training but mind training in what there isn’t just about calming calm

abiding there is more is is how do you wake up in the morning and apply that oh

I’m so happy I’m alive why would you wake up isn’t that normal that you like well it you can’t take it for granted you don’t know at the end of

the day reflect on everything you have done because you don’t know whether you’re going to wake up wake up again things like this as simple as that

and that’s the death cafe death cafe thing too that’s a death cafe but also the mind training is really about seeing the

dharma in everyday life every you know like reminds me of the Buddha saying each half breath being

mindful of each half breath because there’s no guarantee the next half breath will that this body will still

you know have a heartbeating um and to me that’s what the death contemplation is it just realize how much I have taken for granted but every moment is a new

moment to be heatful and mindful and to train the mind and heart yeah so beautiful okay yes I am going to try to see

whether I would love to walk slowly and show you the background of the institute. I’m going to try.

Let’s do that. Okay, I’m going to try.

See behind me.

They are building an additional stuper.

I definitely hear it. Uh, and I saw it, too.

All right, I think we made it and I think we can leave it now.

That’s right. Yeah, it’s real life. I had to be at a cafe this morning and we have real construction, too. So, with

that, um, enjoy the rest of the video, everyone.

Okay. Being Yeah. Well, being a nun is really great. I totally agree. And it was the best choice in my life and I and

I never regret it. And I I would agree that there are of course there are challenges and you you you have to give

up some kind of certainty or you know security or you you you never know how your life will develop in and in which

country you will end up and in which place you will end up. But Buddha himself said that if you keep the vows purely then you know then you will

always have something to eat and then sink will take care of themselves. And in my case it is certainly true and also

you know giving up uh things people usually want to have in their lives like house and and money and partner and it

might sound scary like you might ask yourself the question okay so what I am left with then but what what you are

left with then it’s like the all the richness all or the all the treasury of you know of your own mind and of you

know looking at the world from like from the the perspective of no no needs and

you know let’s let’s see what what will happen you know without I need it to be this way I needed to be this way I let’s just let’s let’s see what will happen

and this this gives immense joy at least to me you know and limiting the like the

positions you you can see the amazing movie of your own mind you know having

less uh distraction s or you know less interesting thing outside you will end up you know watching what is most

interesting and that’s your inner world and this is something which never stopped fascinating me really that’s a very nice way of putting it I

think it’s the first time I hear it this way [laughter] yes I mean for women to decide to ordain it seems like there’s sometimes so much

more than there might be for men or maybe am I am I just too much of a woman when I say that From what I understand, it takes like it’s more difficult for

women you think or maybe I’m not. Yeah, it’s it’s more it’s more difficult in the sense that maybe for western women

because you know yourself know when you go to you you ordained in the Himalayan tradition and you’re doing this in the

Himalayas it’s it’s you know there there already isn’t a language barrier and they do it sometimes they do it because

traditionally at some point there there are too many people in the in there too many people in the family or it’s a way of guaranteeing some sort of support

but even though women, we as a western women, we don’t have many that many choices of where to go and how to do it. Yeah.

Am I am I exaggerating or did you did you have the same the same view on that?

And that’s why maybe for women it’s a little more tricky.

Women also tend to come at a later stage.

Mhm. Yeah. Well, that that’s probably true. Even though the monks here at the institute, it will be I think the same

average age as as nuns here. But then I know about mon a monastery in France a

PMT monastery and they have young monks but it’s more difficult to find young nuns. So it’s probably true what you are

saying even though I didn’t think about it but I would say that within the FBMT it’s I mean I don’t have the experience

that it would be more difficult for me because I am a woman. I I don’t I I myself don’t have this you also maybe

because I was always very fortunate that all my teachers perceive men and women as equal you know without any difference

whatsoever and here at the institute we have equal opportunities in terms of education you know in in terms of uh

assisting with things I I I I don’t really think that it would be better to be a monk here. I I I see this maybe

more in Tibetan society still even though now now the nuns can study to become Gish Gishas

and but you know may maybe no I I don’t know I don’t know what more I could say

because I I I I never really felt that it would be more difficult for me because I’m a woman. That’s very good.

Yes. I think I’m you’re good. you’re a good ro role model as well for for young for young women. And and one last point,

what how do you see monasticism in in contemporary society as a nun? Do you really think

monasticism is important or is it is it really did it ever occur to you that you could have studied the dharma as a lay

person or do you really wanted to become a nun?

I really wanted to become a nun. You know, for me there was no question. it it came almost uh at the same time you

know I I wanted to go deeper in the dharma and I wanted to ordain I feel that the the vows have enormous power

like it’s not you know I can connect to people and I think it’s it is because of my my vows and what what really attract people to me it’s not my personality

because I’m very ordinary but it’s my you know my my vows and and the ethic I chose and basically Buddha himself gave

us this example. You know, if if monasticism was something, you know, redundant, then why would our teacher himself became a monk? And you know, so

the closest disciples, those who were most attracted and who really thought that the dharma was the most important

thing in their life, they they left the householders life and they follow that way. So I think this is far this is really the best if if one is really

serious and if one doesn’t have any obstacles. Of course, it’s not for everybody. I don’t think everybody should become a monk or a nun. But if

you you know if you feel that you are able you know that you that you are so much attracted to dharma that you are able to leave the worldly life then this

is definitely the best because it gives you freedom. You know it’s enormous freedom to be a monk or a nun. I think

you know there are so many things you don’t have to do anymore. You don’t have to think about anymore. So definitely I would recommend it you know.

Thank you for this. Thank you. So being a nun is great. Oh yes, being a nun is great. Yes.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

[Ai assist:] In this episode of Integrating Presence, I’m joined by Dr. Will Tuttle, author of The World Peace Diet, to explore a side of his life many may not know: his deep roots in Zen Buddhism.

Dr. Tuttle shares his incredible “existential” journey—from being raised in the birthplace of American Transcendentalism to walking across the country with no money in search of a Master. We dive deep into his experiences living at “The Farm” in Tennessee, finding his teacher in a Zen center in Alabama, and eventually traveling to South Korea to live and practice as a Zen monk at Songgwangsa.

In this conversation, we discuss:

Our previous conversation: https://shows.acast.com/innerskilled/episodes/with-will-tuttle

Connect with Dr. Will Tuttle:

https://worldpeacediet.com

Books: The World Peace Diet, Your Inner Islands, and more: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001K8I09O/allbooks

https://www.youtube.com/@WillTuttle

https://www.facebook.com/will.tuttle1

https://www.youtube.com/@WillTuttle

Approximate Chapter Titles:

https://youtube.com/shorts/y4b63V5ya0U

https://youtube.com/shorts/JoGNm1XGxAg

https://youtube.com/shorts/Q-TgnPaa85o

Cleaned up transcript via ai:

You are correct—that was a condensed and polished version formatted for readability, rather than the literal word-for-word transcript.

Here is the complete, exact transcript text verbatim from the original provided audio context. All filler words, stutters, false starts, and exact conversational phrasing are preserved, cleaned of chapter markers, and formatted cleanly with speaker tags and paragraph breaks for WordPress:

Josh: Hey wholeness, welcome. This is Josh of Interklild and Integrating Presence and I’m rejoined by Dr. Will Tuttle. I guess it’s Dr. 2, right? Still.

Will Tuttle: Yes.

Josh: Cool. How’s it going today?

Will Tuttle: Thank you, Josh. It’s going very well and I really appreciate the platform you’re creating and thanks everyone for listening in. Great to be here.

Josh: Well, right on. Yeah. for the the first time we we talked on my other platform and you gave a story of kind of your background, you know, of how you went across the country early on and how it led to so many things from there. So, I’ll link to that in the show notes. So, we have to go back through all that. But I just I wanted to talk more on integrating presence here since it’s more of a Buddhist related platform now. how you how you came to the dharma dharma, you know, how you how what was your like first exposure to it and and just general background and uh we we’ll just jump in there too.

Will Tuttle: Sure. Well, you know, that’s a great question. I I think I was probably in a way first exposed to the dharma through the American transcendentalist. I was born and raised in conquered Massachusetts and I wasn’t that aware of it growing up as a kid but when I went away to college in Maine in the early 1970s I started to read Emerson and thorough and that led to some teachings a little bit into Dowoism Buddhism they were really bringing in fact I found out later thorough had the largest library of Asian books in the in North America Dowism Bavad Gita all these things so they were beginning to integrate these and trying to fit it into the Christian background that they were in and created transcendentalist kind of thinking. So I and then I remember I was at KBY College in Maine. I took a course in meditation that was taught by a a Christian the chaplain actually of the of the chapel. But we learned about Zen, you know, we studied Zen. So I started watching my breath for the first time. I was only maybe I don’t know 19 or 20 years old, something like that. And that was one thing led to another and I started to talk to my family, my younger brother Ed and we decided well actually we discovered this book about uh Ramana Maharshi from India but his practice was very similar to a He said go deeper with the question of who am I? You know what is this being you think you are? You’re not this body you know and so I was introduced to those ideas and I actually loved it. It was like I’ve been raised in a Christian tradition but it it had been like kind of like water on a duck’s back. It never really took for me. I just didn’t quite connect for some reason. But when I heard these teachings, I was like real water. I think I was so thirsty. And so we just decided, and I won’t go into it, but we decided to leave home, walk go to California, walk all the way there with no money. And we ended up walking west to Buffalo and then south over a several month period about 20 miles a day. We ended up at the farm in Tennessee, which was the largest in the world back in 1975. and they were studying basically under Steven Gaskin who was sort of the main founder but he was a student of Suzuki Roshi and and did a lot of work with the Zen Center and Suzuki Roshi at the San Francisco Zen Center and and right when we got there the book the Zen mind beginner’s mind had just come out everybody was reading that book and so we we read it too and it kind of went along with everything that we were thinking and you know or non-thinking I guess and but it was just too focused there on work I mean it was like just hard work, you know, cutting wood for it was January, it was freezing or December. And so we left there and walked farther south to Alabama and we ended up we heard [clears throat] about and we ended up at a Zen center, a Korean Zen center in Husville, Alabama that had been started by uh some people who had connected up with Soyang Bosanim. He was a a Zen master from South Korea. And so we could just practice there. It was so great. We we they gave us a room. My grandmother sent us $10 a week. we could live on back in 1975. You could live on that. And uh we sat from like 6:00 a.m. till 9:00 p.m. every day. We just nobody, you know, we had our and there were some people there that were serious uh students of the dharma and they would help us and teach us certain things. And then it was funny because we had heard when we were at the at the farm that by this kind of a psychic person who said, “I see a man with a staff coming into your life.” And so after about 3 months in in March, this guy from Northern California, a Zen master was going to come and teach there and they showed us a picture of this old man and he was standing there with a staff and we said, “Oh, there he is, you know, the man with the staff.” So he came and so ended up studying with him at Master Gilbert. I also, it’s a long story, but I went I ended up in a Tibetan Buddhist meditation center called Kagur Jordan Kunab in San Francisco. I got out there in I guess it was 1978 maybe and I studied there for a few years. I really love I really liked the Tibetan Buddhist practices and I got pretty deeply into it but I my heart was still with Zen. So I ended up leaving there and studying with my Zen teacher who lived in Oakland. He was in you maybe 80 years old at that point and and I studied with him for the ne till he was about 98 you know for the next almost 20 years. And then during that time I also would studied with Stokang Bosanim from he would come over you know and uh from Korea and then he set it up for me to go over to Slangsa and study there shave my head become a Zen monk for a while there. So that was my introduction into it and it was really mainly I think at that Zen center in Huntsville because we were really into it there and there was classes you know every other night on meditation and and so forth. So that was when we really started reading all the books all the the the and it was and it was both it was Zen but I studied quite a bit of the Terravadan teachings mindfulness practices that are so important Shamata vaposa so forth as the foundational teachings and and then I got into the vajriana in California so I I feel like I have a pretty broad range over the years but but Zen is still sort of my main focus.

Josh: Yeah, I I would I would say, wow, there’s so much ground here to cover, like almost literally in the states, too. So from what I hear from other people that were maybe the first wave of Nev Dharma here in the states is that uh they had a hard time finding teachers and communities and a lot of people’s exposure was just books you know just zen books and there was very little available from what I hear and and then I think that continued probably in through the ‘9s especially like in the Midwest where there I don’t think there was much at all but I I could be wrong about that but like so what let’s just I guess maybe we’ll I don’t normally do linear here. But let’s just start from when you’re at the farm, which was this legendary place. I mean, I think some people said it had intelligence ties, too. But anyway, so we we uh How did you then decide of all places? Well, first off, uh what drove you to want to to practice? Did it did you go down to Huntsville to try to to to to practice? I mean, like, were you practicing at the farm and just said, you know, there’s not enough opportunity for that. And why Huntsville of all places? because we hear the space program is down there and I also hear there’s a lot of like secret activity down there or whatever and I I don’t really know if it’s secret right but so it’s an interesting place I’ve been to Huntsville but yeah yeah

Will Tuttle: yeah know those are great questions actually and so what it was like when we when we went on that walk it was an it was an existential experience like we were like we had no money and and we were we were so vulnerable really just walking along on these little roads in little towns in Appalachia, West Virginia to Pennsylvania, Kentucky. And so what people would say like like what are you doing? And it was like we’re meditating to awaken. But we sometimes we were in the Bible belt so we couldn’t say that. But we say we’re we’re living a spiritual life. We’re doing our best to understand the the the source of all life and the divine. And they thought they they liked it in a way. They would have us speak to their Sunday school kids and we would say, “Seek you first the kingdom of heaven. Everything else shall be added unto you. Don’t worry about food. Don’t worry about anything. You’ll be taken care of.” Because we were we didn’t have any we were taken care of. It was kind of miraculous. And because we were just focusing so we would meditate every day for, you know, quite a few hours if we could. Like we would stop and sit under a tree and just do our practice. Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? You know, we were we were on fire with that because we had no other purpose, right? I mean we left home for everything. It was like this is it. So when we got to the farm we we liked it. It was they were great people. They were spiritual. They were practical. They were growing their own food and questioning all the official narratives in the society. They were vegetarian. That was when I stopped eating meat because of them. That was really great you know but it was just no time to sit, you know. You’re like hardly I mean you have to work hard, you know. I was working since I was from the newspaper family. I was working on the printing press and the first book was coming off. It was a big seller, the spiritual midwifery guide. So I was, you know, I was working on the press doing that. And so Ed and I after, you know, a few weeks of this maybe or so, we said, “you know, we got to we got to get out of here, you know, like we’re just going to be busy the rest of our lives if we’re here.” And we had, it was kind of this surreal experience where we had been meditating on a Sunday afternoon after they had their gathering in the schoolhouse. It was December and it was an empty room and we were just all alone in there and it was like the room came alive. This is not really doesn’t happen to me. Hasn’t happened to me ever, I don’t think. But the room came alive with these with this shimmering presence and I felt something touching me here and I said to Ed, you know, there’s some someone’s in this room, you know, I can we can. And he said, “Yeah, I know. I can feel it, too.” Anyway, and then it then it stopped. But then right after that, this guy walked in. His name was Big John. He said, “I’m Big John, you know, and his with a woman.” And he said, “We just got married and we’re from Huntsville.” And so I never I didn’t even heard I didn’t even know where it was. Like what state is that in? And uh but he said, “I’m a you know, I’m we belong to a a place called the the the Church of the Living Light and I can do readings. I feel like I’m supposed to give a reading to you because we just got married. We’re on our honeymoon. We’re heading to California to Florida.” And we turned around and headed north up. I said, “Sorry, honey. I I got to delay. I got I’m supposed to go to the farm for some reason. I don’t know why.” So he came up there. He gave me this reading. Put his hand on my head. I really did feel a rush of energy when he did it. And he just said, “I have this vision of a man with a staff.” That was basically it. And and so he left, but he told us that there was a Zen Center in Huntsville. That was it. And so we we coitated on that and we thought, “You know, maybe we should go to Huntsville. It was farther south. It’s warmer. And we just thought maybe we can go.” So we ended up walking down to Huntsville. Got there. I think I had his phone number. Somehow I got in touch with him and he took us to the farm. I mean to I mean to the Zen center just dropped us off. And so we were there and what we discovered was that this there was because of the Marshall Space Flight Center in in Redstone Arsenal uh in Huntsville. There were engineers from all over the world and they were a lot of them were from the north and they were they had they had this unitarian church where they all went which was like this progressive church and and they studied meditation and then they one of them a guy named Bob Maitland had somehow made a connection with this the Korean Zen master because he got his PhD at Temple University and he had somehow made a connection with him and he had come soim that and and blessed the temple and they called at Ilbong Zen Center. Ilbong is the dharma name of Soken Bong. And so it was this Korean Zen Center and they were they were pretty gung-ho, you know, they had a library with Zen books in it and they had this one guy, there was one guy named Buddy Funk who was really interesting guy and he was a top engineer for NASA. He was the guy that did the equations to get people out there somehow. and and he had had right before we got there, he had had this sator, an awakening experience where, you know, he he was kind of this cocky guy that thought he knew everything and he had walked into the Zen Center and Bob Mland had talked to him in the library and said to him, “So, buddy, see that light?” And Buddy said, “Yeah.” He said, “Who sees that light?” And and Buddy said he he couldn’t answer that. And so he went on this trip and he was in his hotel and he and suddenly it was like everything fell [snorts] fell away and he had this amazing experience. So he so when we got there he was still kind of walking on cloud nine because of this sator experience he had had and the pip everyone in the center was kind of like wow buddy you know he had this awakening and so he had he had money so he had he was renting a room and back then you could rent a room for like 35 bucks or whatever it was but he said you can have my room you know so you guys are serious you can have my room so he kind of took us under his wing and he would always was trying to teach us you know can you see the sky he said the sky it’s like a big dome don’t you see it. It’s amazing, you know. [laughter] He was he was like trying to get us to wake up like he had, you know, but unfortunately with time we could see his ego kind of took over because there wasn’t any teacher there, you know. It was just these people, you know, and and and Ed and I on our whole walk, what we kept saying over and over again was we want to find a master. We want to find a teacher, a master. We want to find a master. That was the whole reason we were doing everything was we need we felt like books. What are good are books? Centers. What good are centers? we need a master, you know, we need someone who can really like show us. And so we that was our our big thing that was pushing us to find us someone. And what was really cool was when they said when that guy said a man with a staff, then we thought, “Oh, maybe that’s the one.” And then they showed us this picture of this guy from California. And we thought, “Oh my god, there he is.” And he looked very impressive. You know, he was bald, you know, shaved head, old guy with a staff, looking really serious. And then he showed up. You know, we had been there practicing for about three months. He showed up in March, late March. He I think he flew in. They picked him up from the airport. They brought him to the center and Ed and I were sitting at the at the at this big round table on the floor that they had. And he walked into the room by himself. Just walked in with his robes on, his staff, and he walked slowly toward us. And there was just the two of us. We were like, we were the only ones who were always there, you know, meditating. and he gave this little smile and he kind of took his finger and he went like he kind of like showed pointed like all this and he goes and he pointed kind of at his head. He goes like, he didn’t say anything. It was like this is all in your mind. You know, like and Ed and [clears throat] I were like, “Wow, here he is, the master. He we found him finally.” You know, it was it was such a amazing experience. And he was really I think he was really the real deal because I studied with him for the next 20 years, you know, and he he pointed, you know, he was an interesting guy. He had been in vaudeville back in the, you know, n like the 1920s and 30s when he was a young man. He was an incredibly strong young man who could do these tricks on the high bar that no one had ever done. Like he could with one hand he could pull himself up over and up on top with one hand. Like no one had ever done that. And he had a partner who was an incredible athlete too. And they would do these handstand acts where his partner would stand on his feet while he was on his handstand and then do a handstand on his and do all this stuff. And so they traveled around the United States and Europe doing things and getting I guess getting really famous. And his mother had been a theosophist. So when he was a young guy, he had found these yoga books when he was like 13 or 14 years old. And he had done some of these practices. And he said he he worked really hard at it. He had a lot of energy and a lot of discipline from all this training and acrobatics. And he said one day it worked. He he suddenly heard this music that was incredibly beautiful. He said this is there is music that is so beautiful it’s far beyond anything you can imagine and I as a young kid 13 I heard that music and I knew this world is not where it’s at. He said but you know he went on you know and he did his thing and and then he always meditated and then he met Dr. So I guess somehow and he had his own group and Dr. So gave him Inca. Gave him transmission. He said you’re you know he was enlightened. He he tested him and everything. So he was a d he was a dharma heir of of so we had a Zen group that would meet at our house and and then we also there was a a big beautiful Korean Zen monastery in Carmel, California. We would go down there about every other weekend and do teachings and people would come from all over the place and he would lead sashines and retreats and I was his assistant. You know I I you know I was like so blessed. I mean, I was at this Tibetan Buddhist Center, but he was in Oakland. I And that was in San Francisco. So, I eventually left. I said, I got to be with him, you know, he’s my he’s the guy, you know. And so, I so I I’ve really been blessed. I mean, I had I study with some great llamas. I you know, I was able to take initiation from the Daly Lama and the Karmapa and Duja. I mean, a lot of great llamas and study and do deep, you know, long retreats and all kinds of stuff with them. But the Zen thing with with So, that was that was it basically. Yeah.

Josh: Will you Yeah, you have such deep rich background and I think these stories really need to be told because there’s probably not too many writings or even verbalizing, you know, that some of the teachers that you’ve encountered. And so, I mean, this is this is almost I think worthy of even part two. We’re only going to go around maybe 45 minutes today. And I I I would just where to start on or where to jump in here is incredible stories. Did he I don’t know if you’ve been to South Korea and practiced there too. And I tell me a little bit about like what Korean lineage he he fit into and then like I don’t know if you if you have practice in Korea, how it differs from American and how um you know what the commonalities are cuz I’ve only done like with Musangsa in South Korea it’song master and then it’s the Providence Sin Center is that in in that lineage and so I’ve only done like a month of of cult and then it served as a another month as a you know served it instead of just sat it but I got to sit some of it so I have very little but I I do remember the practice being really intense you know meditating all day and then doing co kongan practice as well which is really kind of mindblowing and very demanding uh training that I’m not really used to and more terra stuff so yeah um talk about that and then how do you see like Koreans in now fitting into the United faces compared to like maybe some and I don’t have much background either in sodto or renai and stuff like that. So kind of like a a read from from where you where you first encountered it to how you keep up with it today or what your take on it today is I guess right.

Will Tuttle: Yeah, great question. So yeah, the Korean school the main lineage in Korea is Choge, the Chi Order. And you know the thing is the Korean Zen monks feel that they were abused by the Japanese when the J because Japan the Japanese Empire took over Korea back in the early part of the last century and that went right up until the the lost World War II and so they had brought their system of Zen to Korea and the Korean tradition was more like the ancient Chinese tradition. The monks were celibate monks. They, you know, they they would, you know, do an intensive when they were younger, they would do intensive series of kilches of of 90day uh retreats, usually the summer and the winter, and then eventually they would settle down in a village or in a city neighborhood and and they would be the the spiritual teachers there. But when the Japanese came in, the Japanese monks marry, you know, and they have kids and they and it’s passed on from father to son through the, you know, so they’re not they don’t practice, they’re not celibate typically. And so it was a whole different uh kind of a system. And so so when the the war was over there was many different lineages in Korea and there was a lot of competition and fighting among them somewhat. But gradually with time the choge order took root and chi is a Korean word for the mountain where the six patriarch in China lived. And that was that was the mountain where the monastery I went when I went over to South Korea in 1984 uh and shaved my head and was a to put put on the robes. I was living as a Zen monk in at S Wangsa which is one of the three main temples in South Korea. There’s Sanga which is the considered the the SA jewel and there’s ilbupsa which is the the Buddha jewel and there’s another one bulga which is the dharma jewel anyway so as the sa jewel san was was considered the hard practice where people would come and really do intense kilch or or retreats and it and the master there was kusan synonym and kusan synonym when I got there well the thing is he was legendary. He was fully enlightened Zen master. And I was very fortunate because when I was living in Korea, excuse me, when I was living in Oakland, he came over from Korea to the temple I mentioned earlier in Carmel and put on a 7-day sasheen. And I took refuge with him also. And he was the undisputed highest monk in Korea in terms of awakening. And he was renowned for challenging the monks. You know, he he would be if they were if he saw a monk walking across the courtyard, he would stop him and say, “So tell me why does this boulder sprout an eyeball?” You know, things like that. You know, it’s like, “Speak, speak.” You know, he was really intense on trying to so all the most serious monks naturally gathered around him because he was the one who knew he had had very profound experiences. There’s a book when I was there, Steven Bachelor, who’s kind of a well-known writer. was a monk along with he was he and I were you know sitting together and he and he he and Martin Fage the she was a nun there. They both left after I I ended up leaving too but they both left and they got married and you know she was she was the nun who who lived there who really knew everything and she was the translator and they wrote they translated a Kusan a book called nine mountains which is the life of of Kusanim. So you can read about the life of Kusanim. It’s amazing. He he went by himself into the mountains and did standing practice without sitting down. And the birds were take you know were making their nests and from using his things and he went into extremely profound states of of meditation and you know was considered completely illuminated. And it was interesting because it was also there I just have to mention it they had one building that was like a museum and it was where the relics cuz he died like the year about 6 months before I got there. He had died in 1983. I had met him in about 1982 probably and or 81. I remember he was a great teacher and we were doing work period and he was out there even though he was elderly. He was working with us you know and everything and giving great dharma talk. I mean I remember having my interview with him you know I was working on my and it was so funny because you know I he said so you know what’s your what’s your practice? And I say I’m I’m working on the of what is this? And so he said, “Okay.” And he said, “What is this? What is it? Who are you?” And I said, “Well, you know, if the eye that speaks is not the real eye, I I can’t tell you because I’m not that’s not who I truly am.” And he was like, “Ju just tell me.” You know, it was I’ll never forget. I mean, he was he was great. He said, you know, I was trying to say like, you know, the this is just the ego talking. I can’t really get enlightened because I’m just the ego. And he would say, “No, you got to get enlightened.” It was it was really a great experience. But anyway, what was interesting was they had this museum cuz he had passed away and a lot of the monks that I was sitting with were there when they cremated his body. And they cremate the bodies of all the monks. You know, that’s what they do. They they have a special way. They make a big fire. They put their bodies on. Then after the cremation is over, they go through the ashes and they look to see if there’s any relics. And I really had heard about that, but I didn’t really know what it was. But 99.999% of the time there’s just ashes and bones and that’s it. But with Kusanm, there were all these beautiful jewels were in the ashes. And so they had them laid out on this velvet cloth and they were blue and red and yellow and this big black jewel and there was bones that were rainbow colored. And so there’s this kind of a test they do after you die. They can kind of see how enlightened you were by going through the relics. And all these stupas that are all over Asia, they’re they’re reoquaries. They’re built to house the precious relics of enlightened teachers who after they cremate them, they can see the evidence. They’re considered sacred, you know, because of that. And so, so he I think everybody agrees that, you know, he was the real deal, but he wasn’t there anymore. There was another old Zen master named Ilgakanim when I was there and he was good, but he wasn’t Kusan. And so, but the the basic thing the the thing that makes Korean I think Zen so interesting is a couple of things. One is that there was sort of a always a division uh in the Buddhist teachings between those who are really naturally inclined to meditate and those who are naturally inclined to really study the sutras and understand the teachings more in you know intellectually. And so there was this always this conflict in in China and everywhere Japan all the all these different places. And in Korea, there was one great master, I think it was back in maybe the uh 16th century named Chenel. And he was a great scholar, but he also attained enlightenment and was an authentic Zen master. And he said, “There’s no conflict. Those who are meditating should really understand the scriptures. Those who are understanding the scriptures, that’s not enough. You need to meditate.” And so he started, he was the first one to synthesize these two opposing schools into one. And that became the choge order and it was kind of fractured by the Japanese but then after they left they came back together again and so now I’d say probably 90% of monks in in Korea are in the choge order. There’s a bunch of other little orders where they get married and stuff but they pretty much faded away. So this so when I was there at San Wanga it was very interesting because there was the Zen monks and we all meditated together and it was intense. We would get up at uh 2:40 2:40 I guess every morning and set up the shrine and then we start meditating right at 3 and we’d go we went until 9:00 at night and there was a break a couple of breaks you know for lunch and for breakfast but it was mainly just sitting the entire day in silence facing the wall doing the practice of co practice what is this is the main co all amongst you is what is this emo is what it is in Korean emo what is this and we would do that and then the the sutra monks would have their thing and they were doing they were studying the sutras. So we would sometimes hear them but then we would all gather for breakfast. We would gather for lunch. We would gather for before before lunch we would gather for uh reciting the heart sutra and things like that and then we would go our separate ways and meditate and they would so so we knew each other but we you know the two groups knew each other but you were either one or the other kind of and and so monks could decide you know when they started which they preferred and uh I think you know it it seemed to be a pretty uh pretty healthy system like any system I’m sure it’s not perfect there was there was some criticism of some monks by other monks and you know this and that and the other. So Kyouong Bosenim had his own temple in South Korea, excuse me, in in Soul. And so when I first got there, I I stayed at his temple for a while and then I went down to S Wonga for the for the summer kilch, which was 3 months from I think it was May, June, July into August. And I I just practiced that whole thing. And then I stayed long on on longer and traveled with monks around Korea and all the different monasteries and everything. It’s uh it was really very very enlightening. And the and the monks, what can I say about them? They’re I to me they were so beautiful. I have to say they were really beautiful people. They were they were they were not like you think like I mean like the average person might think monks are very you know serious. They they had that side but they were very they were playful. I mean they were always laughing and joking. I took a vow of silence for pretty much the entire 90 days. I really wanted to use the time and most of the other and so they so I never talked but and they most of them a lot of them were were silent but there but they would be talking at the appropriate times you know various times and they and I I just really just enjoyed how they were with each other very you know just very friendly and respectful and and they a lot of them were really great martial artists so they would be kind of doing this this kind of stuff you know with their kicks and stuff. There was all kinds of stuff uh I experienced and at the halfway point there’s a ritual which I guess Kusan didn’t really like it but that they every all the monks would walk take a walk through nature for about three or four miles to another monastery and they’d play a soccer game you know get out and just run around and kick the ball and then they’d go back and do the second half of the culture and meditate again and but I think you know that was a little bit of a distraction I probably would have also said it’s probably not a idea because it kind I could feel it kind of dispersed the energy. It was had really built up to that point and then it got more dispersed but I didn’t I didn’t do the soccer game. I just wanted to keep my practice. But um you know these are people who are just doing one culture after another. I mean they travel and and that’s what they do probably through their 20s and then in their 30s uh they would settle down at a temple and and become a teacher. And the main things they do, they don’t do weddings, they do funerals, you know, they all they’re and so we would do funerals for the for the wealthy people or even non-wealthy people, but for the wealthy people, we did elaborate funerals or, you know, we would we would do the 7-day and the 49 day and we would go all like for hours, you know, chanting and doing all the precepts and the whole thing because that’s when they are really going to choose their birth and the next life. So you want to really give them some teachings and some encouragement. And uh of course I didn’t understand most of it but but I went along you know I was I was mainly focusing on my practice but I but I you know I really have um a healthy respect for the tradition and and especially for what they are referred to as the boast of limb. The boa limb are the the lay women who just make the whole thing happen. I mean they’re they’re really so supportive and they give the money and they just do the the whole work. And there were h the henes, those are the the ones before they become monks. They’re they’re assisting in the kitchen and and so forth. And it was great to see them. I mean, the whole thing, you know, and the interesting thing was when I was there, it was quite primitive. I mean, it was really pretty primitive. And that was in 1984. And metal and I went back a few years ago to give lectures promoting vegan living. And we went to Song Lang Sa. And I it was totally different. I could hardly recognize it. So Korea has gotten so much more wealthy. And when I was there, the people were out in the fields. They were out there. They were planting. You’d see them when you on the bus rides we would take to get somewhere. And there wasn’t a lot of extra money at all. I mean, the you there was just very primitive thing. And now there’s nobody in the fields. Everything is automated. There’s big machines. The cities are huge. The monastery was rich. Like I mean, I could see it was it had been kind of rebuilt. It’s like gosh the whole center part where we were of the monastery wasn’t even had been changed. It was very interesting uh because when we were there there was a foreign sa it was one of the only monasteries in Korea that had a foreign sa. So I was there from the United States there was a couple of guys from England some Sri Lanka Singapore Germany Denmark Canada and uh and some Koreans. you know, we had our own meditation hall cuz, you know, the Koreans were the Koreans and we it was it was just better to kind of separate. It seemed like that was the tradition when I got there. Like I say, Steven Bachelor was there and from England and a few other people from Europe and uh but it it was a fantastic experience and and really they kind of made jokes about the Japanese and he said because sometimes they would go to Japan and and and do a session or do a retreat in Japan and they said, “you know, the Japanese are so serious, you know, it’s like and and because because I guess when they do in Japan when they do these retreats, they’re they’re going to get married later and have a family. So they push him hard. It’s kind of military like it’s a boot camp. You’re going to train, you know. But in Korea, you’re in it for life. You’re never going to get married. This is it. So relax, do your practice. But it doesn’t have that military kind of rigorous, precise, everything exact. You know, they the Koreans just kind of laughed at all that like that’s that’s not Zen. That’s just the Japanese kind of, you know, being overly compulsive about everything, you know. So there’s there’s these, you know, these different cultural sort of flavors to the to the dharma, but it was interesting to see. Yeah,

Josh: it’s it’s really incredible to to see your immersion in that and how things have changed over the years too. You know, my very brief time there. I just taken by the mountains everywhere and we we walked uh for walking meditation. We’d go up during culture and I just agree even from what I observed before cult started the monks are handling money you know in ter that’s like you know the monks would never touch money or food or anything but it’s like they were more loose I think than I was outside of culte you know very happy you know very generous you know very worldly and it just it seemed so helpful to to interact in the world in such a beautiful way you know that that’s what their their practice I I think shown shined really bright outside of colche and then cultch to to me anyway I wasn’t used to you know meditating all that time so it does get pretty I say internally disciplined right but yeah it’s not as as strict militaristic as I would imagine Japanese would be right so the and I was going to just before we start wrapping up on on this and do you have any kind of connection today with Korean style zin in in in America. I will just say real the other thing I found real interesting being there is the temples at least in in this tradition uh at Musangsa with Sunong you would you know you would we would have like the traditional meals uh where you wouldn’t have a table you know and they’d go around and serve food and you’d sit on the floor and it was and then the head monk would you know he would really point out if you’re doing something wrong everything in a in an order and then we did 108 boughs at you know 4 in the morning basically and then there was the the chanting was synchronized with the bowing, but the in the temple that we did the chanting in and the in the services they it was so ornate like almost every square inch was specifically designed and painted and there was huge tonkas um and just and like you said like with the the funeral thing and they had also had one monk going throughout most of the day chanting alone in the temple. I forgot what that you’re probably familiar with what he was doing there. And so yeah, all these things I had no reference to the shamanism apparently that’s kind of coaleses in South Korea cuz it’s also a big shamanistic and Christian country. I mean I think I I was never there but it was like the Korean contingent on some of the Sundays. They had like a piano and it sounded more Christian. They were singing like it’s like I would have never thought that that was going on um like in in so it’s it’s a nice mix. There’s so much stuff. So if you just want to maybe wrap up these loose ends if you know what I’m talking about and I’ll just that’s enough for me to

Will Tuttle: I mean there’s there’s so much we could say but the yeah there’s there is like when I was when I was at S long there was a monk who would who would do practice to um shara and um you know yin or quansal saying that that over and over and over again like all day uh you could hear him far away and that And that’s maybe a tradition. I know there was he he really it was part that was the sutra monks. That was one of the things that that they did and the whole connection like yeah I mean the ornate architecture the the symbolic paintings everywhere at Sangawa there was everywhere they had the the eight or the 10 ox hurting pictures. They love that, you know, the stages of the meditation path, but the, you know, all the like the dragon head on one end of the pole and the the tortoise tail on the other, the tortoise head on the other end, you know, the yin and yang energy, and then the the there’s a lot there’s a lot of um you like like Sangongo was really a tourist destination. It’s a beautiful temple across the stream, gorgeous, beautiful buildings. So we would be behind the walls meditating and they’d tourists would be out there in the middle of the day. It was summer yapping away. Gladly it was in Korean. I couldn’t understand anything. So it wasn’t a distraction really. It was just sort of like the ocean just they would they would come in and they would all watch us, you know. And as monks they would bow to the ground to us, you know. They would just and like when I traveled by by bus or whatever afterwards, it was kind of weird, you I I people would just bow to my feet because I was a monk, you know, and I was kind of a strange looking monk cuz I wasn’t Korean and they were wondering like who is this guy, you know, [laughter] but they would bow to my feet anyway cuz I was a monk. I mean, it’s a there’s a a lot of um this was back in the 80s, but there was really a a very devotional dimension. But of course the big news for the for the choge order for the Buddhists was this massive competition from the Christians that had come in because about 50% of Korea was Buddhist and about 50% was Christian at that point. And so you know I travel I wanted to learn more about it. So I went and talked to the Catholics and the Catholic priests they have relatively minor or not many they have they do their work and they have some people but they said yeah these these fundamentalist Christians sects in Korea have really attracted millions of people to them because they they educate they have universities they have colleges they have hospitals they do all these things for the people and the Buddhists don’t do that the Buddhists say just meditate And it’s all about the next life. You know, you have a good you do well here, you’ll have a next life. And the Christians say, “Don’t worry about the next life. We’re going to do now now. Now, now now, you know.” And so because of that, the the Buddhists had been losing a lot of people to the Christians who were building roads and and trying to, you know, just get everybody um in a higher life level somehow of lifestyle. But we heard so many horror stories, especially from the Catholic priest. He would say how these these you know they would come into this village and the people would have barely any money. And they would say we’re going to build a church and and you can contribute but and if you don’t if you do you’ll go to heaven. If you don’t you’re going to burn in hell, you know. And they would like give the last little money they didn’t have for food. They would give it to the church. And you know he was saying it’s like amazing how these people are exploited by the way they frame this whole thing. And uh he he didn’t like it. But I think you know there’s probably some truth to that. They they’re very devotional people really and and and that whole thing. So like at Stongsta where I was they started having a summer camp for the for the kid for the young people to come in and teach them about the Buddhist teachings and educate and they started Buddhist universities and they you know they realized they needed to kind of like up the game in the sense of getting out to the people more and educating and showing them the value of the of the dharma. this is valuable teaching and it’s not just something monks away you know and you do your life and you go to them for your death ceremony but you really uh trying to teach them and reach out so really engaging in outreach so that was really happening when I was there and I’m sure it’s probably continued there’s that tension uh between the two is pretty was was pretty strong and I’m sure it probably still is but the good news is I think the uh the overall health of the chi order and the and the Buddhism as far as I can tell I mean when I was there I spoke at a bunch to different Korean monasteries. Even one who he had been one of my fellow, he was now the abbott of this one monastery. I was kind of I knew you when you were just a young but it was really, you know, it’s really it seems to be doing well. There’s lots of monks and they’re working hard and they’re meditating and it’s all vegan. I love that there’s like no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no wool, no silk, no leather, no killing animals. It’s really very powerful of compassion, compassion for all beings, radiating compassion. You know this this whole teaching of compassion is very powerful and also the questioning of materialism. We are we are not we are not this body we are consciousness that’s such an important teaching I think in our society. So the Buddhists are doing really important work uh I think in Korea probably everywhere to help keep this tradition alive today. Yeah.

Josh: Well yeah will thanks so much for coming on and sharing all that. I know we didn’t talk much about veganism and that’s kind of more what you’re known for, but we did on my other episode. And so, so I’ll link that in the show notes. And I’ll just give you an opportunity here to to share whatever you’d like with folks uh beyond that, like what what do you have going on, what are you up to these days, what do you got in the the works, and how people can get in touch with you.

Will Tuttle: Thank you. Thanks so much. You know, I just really uh focus right now mainly on practice and my wonderful wife Meline, we’re married now. We just had our 33rd anniversary a couple of days ago and our focus is really meditation. We spend the the first two and a half hours of the day we’re in practice and then I also do quite a bit of outreach for veganism also meditation. Uh we have a online group that if you you can go to our website worldspaced.com or just put in my name Will Tuttle. I’m a writer. We travel half the year across the country in our van and give lectures and I also play the piano, do concerts, retreats, workshops on developing spiritual intuition. I have a PhD. I when I came back from Korea, I I got my PhD at Berkeley and educating intuition in adults. This idea that we have an inner guidance system that we can connect through meditation to help us live our life authentically. So, still we’re still doing that. And we have a garden where Meline’s out there every day. We’re out there. Uh we have 80 fruit and nut trees. So we grow a lot of our own food and we try to live sustainably and practice and we have a our our house is a temple. It’s kumjungsta which means golden footprint home temple. And so we have from time to time we have meditations here for local people and things like that too. So we have a center here but it’s it’s mainly our home because we travel so much. So that’s what we’re doing right now. And we love to stay in touch with people. I have books, uh, CDs, teachings, videos. If you put in Will Tuttle anywhere on YouTube, Amazon, iTunes, you’ll see all of that there. Food for freedom, the world peace diet, the world peace way, your inner islands, the keys to intuitive living, all these different books and things. We’re happy to stay in touch with people and I hope we can do another one. I just really enjoy our conversation. Hope that works.

Josh: It was great, Will. your your energy is so needed the what you bring and being of an older generation like you know even though I was just going to fall into cliche and say you know you’re not going to be around forever when that’s true but like you just you seem like you have like you said last time like the energy and like the physical aging of like a 20-year-old and it’s just quite incredible. So, so maybe we will have quite a bit of time left here to to to you know to really share um these experiences that probably not so many of of your generation around or there won’t be you know uh but so this this this stuff these these stories not only do they document but it’s it’s a real living history that’s a real living practice and history that’s continuing. So I appreciate your your time and expertise and your your love and and uh and what you’re doing out there. So keep it up. And with that, may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free. Bye everybody.

Will Tuttle: Thank you.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

In this forty-fifth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion following up this time with a comment Wendy made last month about having memorized and worked with “The 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva” (Gyelse Tokmey Zangpo, 14th century), a classic Tibetan Buddhist text that outlines the mindsets, behaviors, and spiritual training required to cultivate compassion and altruism. So we planned to look at least some of these in the light of formal and daily life practice.

Ai summarizes our talk thus:

Below is a breakdown of the 37 practices via ai conjuring, grouped by their core themes:

by Gyalse Tokme Zangpo via https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/gyalse-thogme-zangpo/37-practices-all-bodhisattvas

Namo Lokeśvarāya!

You see that all things are beyond coming and going,
Yet still you strive solely for the sake of living beings—
To you, my precious guru inseparable from Lord Avalokita,
I offer perpetual homage, respectfully, with body, speech and mind.

The perfect buddhas, who are the source of all benefit and joy,
Come into being through accomplishing the sacred Dharma.
And since this in turn depends on knowing how to practise,
I shall now describe the practices of all the buddhas’ heirs.

1. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to study, reflect and meditate,
Tirelessly, both day and night, without ever straying into idleness,
In order to free oneself and others from this ocean of saṃsāra,
Having gained this supreme vessel—a free, well-favoured human life, so difficult to find.

2. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to leave behind one’s homeland,
Where our attachment to family and friends overwhelms us like a torrent,
While our aversion towards enemies rages inside us like a blazing fire,
And delusion’s darkness obscures what must be adopted and abandoned.

3. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to take to solitary places,
Avoiding the unwholesome, so that destructive emotions gradually fade away,
And, in the absence of distraction, virtuous practice naturally gains strength;
Whilst, with awareness clearly focused, we gain conviction in the teachings.

4. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to renounce this life’s concerns,
For friends and relatives, long acquainted, must all go their separate ways;
Wealth and prized possessions, painstakingly acquired, must all be left behind;
And consciousness, the guest who lodges in the body, must in time depart.

5. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to avoid destructive friends,
In whose company the three poisons of the mind grow stronger,
And we engage less and less in study, reflection and meditation,
So that love and compassion fade away until they are no more.

6. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to cherish spiritual friends,
By regarding them as even more precious than one’s own body,
Since they are the ones who will help to rid us of all our faults,
And make our virtues grow ever greater just like the waxing moon.

7. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to take refuge in the Three Jewels,
Since they will never fail to provide protection for all who call upon them,
For whom are the ordinary gods of this world ever capable of helping,
As long as they themselves are trapped within saṃsāra’s vicious cycle?

8. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is never to commit a harmful act,
Even though not to do so might put one’s very life at risk,
For the Sage himself has taught how negative actions will ripen
Into the manifold miseries of the lower realms, so difficult to endure.

9. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to strive towards the goal,
Which is the supreme state of changeless, everlasting liberation,
Since all the happiness of the three realms lasts but a moment,
And then is quickly gone, just like dewdrops on blades of grass.

10. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to arouse bodhicitta,
So as to bring freedom to all sentient beings, infinite in number.
For how can true happiness ever be found while our mothers,
Who have cared for us throughout the ages, endure such pain?

11. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to make a genuine exchange
Of one’s own happiness and well-being for all the sufferings of others.
Since all misery comes from seeking happiness for oneself alone,
Whilst perfect buddhahood is born from the wish for others’ good.

12. Even if others, in the grips of great desire, should steal,
Or encourage others to take away, all the wealth that I possess,
To dedicate to them entirely my body, possessions and all my merits
From the past, present and future— this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

13. Even if others should seek to cut off my head,
Though I’ve done them not the slightest wrong,
To take upon myself, out of compassion,
All the harms they have amassed—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

14. Even if others should declare before the world
All manner of unpleasant things about me,
To speak only of their qualities in return,
With a mind that’s filled with love—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

15. Even if others should expose my hidden faults or deride me
When speaking amidst great gatherings of many people,
To conceive of them as spiritual friends and to bow
Before them in respect—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

16. Even if others whom I have cared for like children of my own
Should turn upon me and treat me as an enemy,
To regard them only with special fondness and affection,
As a mother would her ailing child—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

17. Even if others, equal or inferior to me in status,
Should, out of arrogance, disparage me,
To honour them, as I would my teacher,
By bowing down my head before them—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

18. Even though I may be destitute and despised by all,
Beset with terrible illness and plagued by evil spirits,
Still to take upon myself all beings’ ills and harmful actions,
Without ever losing heart—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

19. Even though I may be famous and revered by all,
And as rich as Vaiśravaṇa, the god of wealth himself,
To see the futility of all the glory and riches of this world
And to remain without conceit—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

20. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to subdue the mind
With the forces of loving kindness and compassion.
For unless the real adversary—my own anger—is defeated,
Outer enemies, though I may conquer them, will continue to appear.

21. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to turn away immediately
From those things which bring desire and attachment.
For the pleasures of the senses are just like salty water:
The more we taste of them, the more our thirst increases.

22. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is never to entertain concepts,
Which revolve around dualistic notions of perceiver and perceived,
In the knowledge that all these appearances are but the mind itself,
Whilst mind’s own nature is forever beyond the limitations of ideas.

23. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to let go of grasping
When encountering things one finds pleasant or attractive,
Considering them to be like rainbows in the summer skies—
Beautiful in appearance, yet in truth devoid of any substance.

24. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to recognize delusion
Whenever one is confronted by adversity or misfortune.
For these sufferings are just like the death of a child in a dream,
And it’s so exhausting to cling to delusory perceptions as real.

25. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to give out of generosity,
With no hopes of karmic recompense or expectation of reward.
For if those who seek awakening must give even their own bodies,
What need is there to mention mere outer objects and possessions?

26. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to observe ethical restraint,
Without the slightest intention of continuing in saṃsāric existence.
For lacking discipline one will never secure even one’s own well-being,
And so any thought of bringing benefit to others would be absurd.

27. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to cultivate patience,
Free from any trace of animosity towards anyone at all,
Since any potential source of harm is like a priceless treasure
To the bodhisattva who is eager to enjoy a wealth of virtue.

28. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to strive with enthusiastic diligence—
The source of all good qualities—when working for the sake of all who live;
Seeing that even śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas, who labour for themselves alone,
Exert themselves as if urgently trying to extinguish fires upon their heads.

29. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to cultivate concentration,
Which utterly transcends the four formless absorptions,
In the knowledge that mental afflictions are overcome entirely
Through penetrating insight suffused with stable calm.

30. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to cultivate wisdom,
Beyond the three conceptual spheres, alongside skilful means,
Since it is not possible to attain the perfect level of awakening
Through the other five pāramitās alone, in wisdom’s absence.

31. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to scrutinize oneself
Continually and to rid oneself of faults whenever they appear.
For unless one checks carefully to find one’s own confusion,
One might appear to be practising Dharma, but act against it.

32. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is never to speak ill
Of others who have embarked upon the greater vehicle,
For if, under the influence of destructive emotions,
I speak of other bodhisattvas’ failings, it is I who am at fault.

33. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to let go of attachment
To the households of benefactors and of family and friends,
Since one’s study, reflection and meditation will all diminish
When one quarrels and competes for honours and rewards.

34. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to avoid harsh words,
Which others might find unpleasant or distasteful,
Since abusive language upsets the minds of others,
And thereby undermines a bodhisattva’s conduct.

35. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to slay attachment
And the rest—mind’s afflictions—at once, the very moment they arise,
Taking as weapons the remedies held with mindfulness and vigilance.
For once the kleshas have become familiar, they’ll be harder to avert.

36. In short, no matter what one might be doing,
By examining always the status of one’s mind,
With continuous mindfulness and alertness,
To bring about the good of others—this is the practice of all the bodhisattvas.

37. The practice of all the bodhisattvas is to dedicate towards enlightenment
All the virtue to be gained through making effort in these ways,
With wisdom that is purified entirely of the three conceptual spheres,
So as to dispel the sufferings of the infinity of beings.

Here I have set down for those who wish to follow the bodhisattva path,
Thirty-seven practices to be adopted by all the buddhas’ heirs,
Based on what is taught in the sūtras, tantras and treatises,
And following the instructions of the great masters of the past.

Since my intellect is only feeble and I have studied but a little,
This is not a composition likely to delight the connoisseurs,
Yet since I’ve relied upon the sūtras and what the saints have taught
I feel these are indeed the genuine trainings of the buddhas’ heirs.

Still, the tremendous waves of activity of the bodhisattvas
Are difficult for simple-minded folk like me to comprehend,
And I must therefore beg the indulgence of all the perfect saints
For any contradictions, irrelevancies or other flaws this may contain.

Through whatever merit has here been gained, may all beings
Generate sublime bodhicitta, both relative and absolute,
And through this, come to equal Lord Avalokiteśvara,
Transcending the extremes of existence and quiescence.

This was composed in Jewel Cave (Rinchen Puk) in Ngulchu by the monk Tokme, a teacher of scripture and reasoning, for his own and others’ benefit.

| Translated by Adam Pearcey, 2006

Version: 1.6–20250303

*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*

Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.

For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.

Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”

Past chats with Wendy:

Unedited transcript via YouTube:

Full Raw Verbatim Transcript (with timestamps removed via ai and whatever else it did to it:

Hello and welcome everyone. Uh besides this technical challenges, Wendy, how are you? How’s it going?

Well, I had my birthday this week.

Oh, happy late birthday. I don’t know why I missed it. I should should have had this down, but anyway, who who cares?

Better late than never. Okay, so my friend I said, “No presents. No presents. No presents.” cuz I always I’m I hate I hate it when people give me presents because I they give like people give me what they think they should get me rather than what I actually want and you have to know me really well to know me what I want and my partners never get it right like they just never get it right and they’re supposed to be paying attention and they’re rubbish at it. So I just go no presence let’s just not do it. Nonetheless, she did it and it was actually very sweet and she scrimps and saves and she has like she really has a lot of expenses. So for her to send a boat like a box of a box of with a plant and a balloon that would have been a massive massive kind of financial burden for her. Very very sweet. Very sweet.

A that’s cool.

Yeah. So I’m here on Gabby Gabby Country in Queensland. And Josh, you’re in a cafe.

Yeah. You know, I’m I am um housesitting for friends in Eastern Illinois while they go to Death Valley in in uh in the States with their kids. And so there’s no internet out there in my phone plan. It works out there, but barely. So I thought, you know, better better come here and uh do this. And so it it’s kind of fitting for this. usually don’t get into bodhicit sappa practices because I don’t you know I’m not on this path but that’s it’s all about out uh being out and helping people right and saving all beings everywhere. Um so a little little tongue and it but you know kind of um so Wendy why don’t you um you mentioned these 37 practices of abod sappa last time and I I was just looking now and AI messed it up pretty much you know it it it watered it down and and duplicated a lot of stuff. So I put the the regular text in the post too. So what do you want to say about this? Where do you want to start?

So I like the 37 practices of body sata because I a few years ago I was having a miserable time in a job. I was miserable where I was living. I had recently separated. I and the people were just awful at work. Like they were just really awful. And so I actually took to this practice of reciting the 37 practices every morning when I meditated and just to myself and just and I you know I memorized it all. And it was really good cuz when it said like it’s actually very very funny. So the verses are very very funny. So let me just see if I can bring up the verses. And while you’re looking at one, let me um the what I have up here is under the guise of thing transforming adversity into path. When robbed, offer your body, wealth, and merit to the person who stole from you. You know. Yeah. It’s so it’s like okay. Wow. I I’m not there. I I couldn’t imagine doing that when attacked, take upon yourself the harm and negative karma of the attacker, you know. So, it’s kind of tongue and cheek

So, um and it says here, even if someone driven by great desire were to seize all my wealth or encourage another to do so, to dedicate them to my body possessions and all my virtue of the three times without any thought of retaliation, it’s the practice of a body sata. And uh even if someone were to cut off my head even when I have done nothing wrong through the power of compassion to take on all their negative actions upon myself it’s the practice of a body sata. Even if someone were to proclaim throughout a billion worlds all my faults and speak harshly harshly of me with a mind filled with loving kindness and bow to them with respect is the practice of all body satas. So um if even if someone who I have cared for like a child were to regard me as an enemy to regard that person with special affection like a mother towards her child it’s the practice of a body sata. So it’s this kind of um it’s it’s kind of a joke because it’s so impossible to do that. Like yes that’s the aim but you know like no one’s going to get there. So, I I like how you you have this um the tone that’s kind of a very English tone, but what what I looked at these is this like okay um yeah, this is possible, but it how probable is it? But like what this really points to if we’re going to be more realistic about it is to to to flip things on their head, you know, like there’s um habitual response we have to things, right? and it just turns everything on its head. So like it it shows us another option. So I I see how you kind of have like an Oscar Wild or Shakespearean approach to to saying this, but I wonder what if we were to take it more seriously and you know um just just flip things around basically. Uh to me this is like training for a saint. If you’re taking this seriously and you’re actually if you’re in these things and you have the same kind of sentiment as what some of these things are laying out, that’s that’s a saint to me, you know.

So, it says here, “Some of the verses have deliberate word play and rhetorical twist, but they are not generally puns in the modern English sense. The Tibetan is particularly good at this because a short phrase can carry several meanings at once. For example, friends, verse two, friends and enemy. The opening uses two very physical images. Towards friends, attachment churns like water. Toward enemies, hatred burns like fire. The contrast is deliberate. Water and fire are not just poetic decoration. They represent two fundamental reactions that keep us caught in samsara grasping an aversion. Um, so it’s I I mean I’ve always read this as slightly kind of not a pun, but just like ludicrously hard. And to expect that you’ll be able to do that is kind of like, yeah, like that’s the aspiration, but good luck with that one. So if if one if one does not examine one’s own confusion, they may act contrary to the dharma while appearing to practice the dharma. So there’s there there is um I I think it’s um they have said it’s not a pun but they have said um that it is like it is very good in the Tibetan. So I see let me I’ll read another one here. Even if others should expose my hidden faults or deride me when speaking am amidst great gatherings of many people to conceive them as spiritual friends and to bow before them in respect. This is the practice of a bodhic sappva. So it all ends with the this is the practice of bodhic sappa. So, Wendy, I I guess I’m trying to understand why did you take this on? For your own amusement or like um you know, uh tell me again why you why you took this on or why you read read this and uh read these and then um did you ever take any of it serious or is it just for a good laugh or what?

Oh, no. I always took it seriously, but I was having such a bad time that I just thought like I needed to do it. I’m just posting them here in the chat. It’s a private chat for you. Um Okay. Uh so this is the translation in in chat GPT. So Okay. Um uh so I you can put them in the the regular chat and we can show them on screen too if you’d like.

Okay.

Or I can do that. Yeah, you you can do that. Well, how about All right. So Sure. Okay. Okay. See? So, we’re not really live or why are we live these days?

Just just YouTube. Just YouTube on my channel. Just Okay. Yeah. You No, no, YouTube. Sorry, I shouldn’t say that. Yeah. Okay. Because now I have to edit that out for the um for the other version, but anyway. Yeah. So, we’re live. Yeah. Okay. So, the first one the first one’s on screen. Now that you have obtained this great vessel difficult to find which is being born human, free and endowed with every favorable condition to study, reflect and meditate day and night without interruption in order to liberate yourself and others from this ocean of samsara. This is the practice of a body sattva and it just says don’t make a mess of it. The next one is towards friends and relatives attachment churns like water. uh toward enemies. Hatred burns like fire amid darkness that forgets what should be adopted and abandoned. To abandon this life is the practice of of all body suffers. By harm by avoiding harmful places, disturbing emotions gradually diminish. In the absence of distraction, virtuous practice naturally increases with awareness becoming clearer. Confidence in the dharma arises to rely upon solitude is the practice of all the body sattas. So basically I looked at my time um as uh I can’t remember where you got up to there. So that’s four. Yeah. Um so I was sort of very lonely and I just thought well I’m going to do this. I’m going to treat it as if I’m on retreat and I I used to recite them and it just meant that it was it was very helpful when I wanted to lash out to just go no don’t do that.

I see.

And um so there was you know when I was really in a bad space but that said I came I came back home and I felt myself very frozen because I think I’d had so many of these awful experiences in in England. I just found them so like I found the the Brits just the English not all of them but so many of them are so cold and so indifferent to another person’s pain like really I think you know not understanding that I was a foreigner and and really a harsh judgment like they’re awful people so they can be you know extremely judgmental so this is the stiff upper lip mentality right Yeah. Uh I don’t know what it is. Yeah. It’s like just talk about the weather. It’s like you don’t have no warmth, you know? Like I don’t know what it is, you know? Um and I think that’s why so many Brits kind of come to Australia and then they just feel so much happier.

You know, I I’m very grateful that I um that that I didn’t experience too much. There’s a um I would say there’s just about as many fake people in England as there is America, you know. Uh but yeah, it’s it’s kind of a different uh fakeness or attitude, but there’s but I met plenty of sincere, you know, honest, straightforward. Well, there’s less straightforwardness, but that’s everywhere, too. You know what I mean? Um so I I’m just grateful that then again, you are in the university system. You were at Oxford and that’s a big deal. That’s like, you know, they’re mess they’re not messing around at Oxford. That’s serious stuff, you know.

But, you know, I had I had another job before I was at Oxford and they were equally awful. I mean, and I think I was probably not at my best. I was I had just arrived. I um was very unsettled. And they don’t they because they like Australians. Oh, Australians live abroad, you know, and like but Americans I think they don’t if you don’t travel like I find here in Kabula where I am that because people don’t travel they don’t understand what it’s like to be a foreigner. Yeah. And you now know what it’s like to be a foreigner in America. You’re you’re in this bubble basically. They say this is the greatest place on earth. There’s really no need to go. this is the best place ever. You know, there’s um without really even, you know, and you know, there’s pros and cons, of course, just like everywhere else, but it it’s um what they tell you about one place is not the same as actually going there and experiencing it, you know, and I would just say about England, um you know, this is a this is a country that um for a short time period, they dominated so much of the world. U you know, they had colonialism. They’re they’re big apologists now about it. And but I mean every they well some of them are you know maybe it’s just maybe it’s just um saving face or something and I don’t want to talk uh super bad because again my my experience wasn’t all that bad. It’s just the influence is huge. I mean just look at look at America in in in just the language you know it is kind of like a universal language and that is really important. The language is really important. Um even though we’re speaking like an export of English uh it’s still you know uh how things are presented spin understood connect everything legal it’s the root of so many things and here we are you know yeah yeah so um so that’s why I was doing all this um but and I did recognize that it was really hard so um you know even if someone equal or inferior to me through through pride were to disparrage me to honor them as I would my teacher by placing them above myself is the practice of all body sappers like you know someone’s derogatory I bow down to them you know so I think it to me it did have this ironic kind of impossible um aspiration and so that’s why I thought it was very But but apparently I was wrong. So there you are another instance where I’m wrong.

So well no no I I think it is in a sense. But what what to me I’m sorry. I guess I take two things too seriously here. But to me, what it points to is um okay, what if like I take my habitual ways of uh viewing the world and reacting to the world and people and situations and just flipped it on its head, flipped it completely around, you know, a complete inversion, a complete, you know, and what would that be like? You know, I put myself in those shoes and be like, could could I do that? I I mean that would be that would be so crazy to actually do that compared to where people are and how people see the world and act in the world and respond to the world. You know what I mean? But um yeah, so it’s a it’s an interesting thought experiment. You know what I mean? I do I do think these sentiments are possible. you know, instead of being super duper uh mad at someone, I could be less mad, but it’s not the full extent of like, you know, completely turning it on its head. Yeah.

So, I I asked chat to change it from a pun to iron ironic and it says yes. So, verse 15 is almost mischievous. Even if someone should expose my hidden faults and deride me to regard that person as a spiritual friend and bow to them with respect. Um yeah so you know I you think X is happening actually X is an opportunity to practice Y. So they they can feel almost absurd. So um the person who gives up pursuing their own happiness is said to be the one who ultimately finds genuine happiness while the personally relentlessly pursuing their own happiness creates suffering. That’s not just a rhetorical device. It’s essentially the central Mahayana claim that the 37 practices are trying to make you experience rather than merely believe. And I think the problem with taking them too seriously is that you can become very earnest and form an identity about them and take it too seriously. And I think that’s the problem with you know all that. So that’s yeah.

So there’s um what the I think it was Gemini or something did this um so it just simplified it. I think it extracts like the practicality of it. So like the 19 when wealthy or famous remain humble and recognize that material success is temporary. When angry tame your own mind rather than trying to conquer external enemies. You know when overcome by desire let go of addictive objects immediately as if drinking salt water. Um yeah. So some of them are really pretty basic. Harmful. Avoid harmful actions. to refrain from unh wholesome actions to avoid future suffering. So yeah, when I I didn’t read the real thing, so I when I read these little summaries and I thought, oh well, this is pretty a lot of these are really basic um straightforward one like this one. It just summarizes as avoid harsh speech, refrain from words that cause distress to others, avoid pointing out faults. This is a big bodhic sappa thing. Never speak ill of another practitioner’s mistakes. You know, that’s um that’s a tough one uh for for us, you know, because we’re we just did it. We just did it. Yeah. We just did it, you know, we were But it’s not specific. It’s not a specific person. Do you know what I mean? We have But I’m always kind of doing that. And I you know, it’s interesting like I’m I feel more like it is just so hard when someone is super frustrating. I’m just putting them all in the private chat. I can’t actually use the public chat, so that has to be Sure, I’ll do that. Okay, I’ll just throw some up here. Yeah. Yeah. Um these these appear to be translations from Tibetan rather than a book that Okay. Um has been translated. I’ll start with 16 here and then can you see it when I show it on the screen? Yeah, I can see 16. Okay. Even if someone who I have cared for like a child were to regard me as an enemy, to regard that person with special affection like a mother towards her child is the practice of all bodhic sappas. Um so let me skip through let me do let’s see here. I think his name is Tokme Gongo. Oh yeah. Do number 20 here. Until the enemy of my own anger is subdued, although I may conquer external enemies, more enemies will continue to appear. Therefore, to tame my own mind with an army of loving kindness and compassion is the practice of all bodhic sappas. Let let me comment real quickly that when I first came in here, there was a guy sitt in the corner and uh I just looked down just real briefly. That was the mistake, I think. And I just felt this is maybe it’s my own mind projection, but like this intense like scowlling and hatred and I was just taken by I was like, “Okay, I’m just going to sit here and this guy’s going to stare at me in the corner. This is weird.” And I felt uncomfortable and I, you know, felt this tightening in my chest. And then I just remembered, ah, loving kindness. I can practice loving kindness. So, start wishing myself well and him well. And it wasn’t but uh two or three minutes and the guy just got up and left, you know. So, I mean, it could have been a coincidence obviously, but it just once that was um that tension was broken with loving kindness, it just kind of fixed itself. So, maybe that’s magical thinking or maybe there’s coincidence, but it really is a remedy I found. Um, and all it took was an internal shift in my own perception basically. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think and I think that’s what it’s all about. It’s not about the other person. It’s about how do you experience the world? Exactly. and and training yourself. So, one of the things that I think is is probably quite key is when you don’t lash out then you are training your mind. And I guess I got so used to restraint living in living in Oxford that I think what happened when I came back to Australia, I still felt kind of frozen in that restraint. And there is research which says that people who are very extroverted I mean I’m obviously highly introspective. Um but that’s I don’t see that as being sort of introverted. I see that as being an you know I’m still very extroverted. I just happen to be very introspective and um and I feel like my the neurons in my mind have just completely kind of re started to rewire and just feel make me feel really withdrawn. And the research is that when someone is very extroverted and they have to be quite withdrawn and pretend to be an introvert, then they kind of go a bit nuts. They they actually it’s really awful. And whereas if someone’s very very introverted and they pretend to be an extrovert, actually they can do it. They don’t, you know, it’s not their natural position, but they can they can kind of make it happen. Actually, I’ve heard that with actors. Some of the best actors I heard here are introverts, but they just just get up there, do it real well, and then withdraw again. But yeah, that’s that’s um you know, and there’s this notion, I guess, in psychology about um you know, going and expressing things that have been uh repressed, you know, as far as emotions go. And yeah, I see that to a certain degree, but I can also see like there’s one of these I thought about restraining um bad emotions or something. Let’s see. Uh what was the summary to one of these things? Apply uh this is how it summarized it. Apply remedies immediately. Eradicate disturbing emotions the moment they arise. You know, some people might say no, you should actually feel them and let them move through. Um you know, uh however, I I don’t know about that. I mean, maybe yeah, we don’t want to suppress them, but also it depends. if we’re going to act on them then we can cause a lot of damage but if you know so I don’t know your thoughts and feelings on on that one I I feel that so that that stuff came from really it’s very Freudian um it was it came because at the time when Freud was writing it was a very very repressive system um particularly for women and so the expression of emotions was seen as being sort of to kind of you became more alive. I see. You know, it helped with the liveless. That’s my understanding. But now we have such an expressive society, we kind of need to unlearn that one. That’s my take. You know, I think people who are very expressive and forthright kind of need to pause and people who are very quiet and withdrawn actually, you know, in therapy or whatever, they kind of come forward much more.

That’s a good point. And there are some cultures that are more reserved, you know, like in Scandinavia, I would say people are more reserved, you know, maybe like German, at least in public. So, okay, let’s see. We’ve got um number 22 here. Whatever appears in one’s own mind from the very beginning, the nature of mind is free from conceptual elaboration. Knowing this not to grasp it subject and object is the practice of all bodhic safas. Yeah. Yeah. try try to do that when you’re like um trying to catch a bus or you know trying to negotiate a you know in the marketplace you know duality is kind of helpful there but but this goes beyond that right so it’s it’s if that can be reflected upon this non-duality um it can be helpful but I don’t know how practical it is and I shouldn’t say don’t do it but I I I still like the synthesis of how do we do that how do we combine this non-duality in in our you know day-to-day life? But I mean, you know, I think that it’s really I think the you know, one of them is I can’t remember where it is, but remain natural and change but remain natural. And I think that’s that’s really key. Um and that actually it might be in the Lo Jong slogans. Um, but but I it’s the same sort of stuff. And I just think you don’t want to be contrived. You want to kind of listen to your own mind, listen to your own body, and not be fake and not be fake to yourself. I think the biggest problem with these verses is that you can become um you can delude yourself that you’re further along than you are. You know, I’ve spoken before about somebody I know and he’s very he’s very clear in many ways, but he kind of can’t tolerate any sense of criticism or something or you know like but what about this thing or what about this approach and anybody else’s approach is not viable. And so I’ve always been very interested by this idea that some people can be very like clear like there’s no doubt that he has, you know, and then there’s these kind of real glitches where he’s a nightmare and and kind of obnoxious. And I I often think people have insights and then they start to identify with them. And I think with these I think you could um but it depends on whether you check it depends on whether you’re honest with yourself. I mean it’s like the whole of the dharma. If you’re not honest with yourself, you’re kind of done for.

I think it also brings up this thing that some teachers are talking about now that there can be people that have great insight, great kind of maybe awakening moments or realizations, but then the personality material is the personality material needs working on. You know, they can really treat people and themselves not so good. Um so when I read this um these other ones that summarized these um transforming adversity on the path you know like when attacked take upon yourself the harm and negative uh karma of the attacker right I wouldn’t naturally jump to that when insulted speak of the other person’s virtues in return that’s not normally what I you know jump to when exposed or criticized respect the critic as a spiritual teacher when betrayed teach an ungrateful person like a loving parent teaches their child. Yeah. So, so, so you just spoke a minute ago about that guy in the cafe. So, it’s not about you, but he’s a teacher and he tells you that you actually have material to work with.

Sure. That’s right.

And you need and I did. It just wasn’t immediate like I like.

Yeah. So, um Yeah. But you you just said one. Um um let’s see. uh when betrayed, treated uh when exposed or criticized, when insulted. Now, that technically he didn’t insult you, but he nonetheless gave you cause to to go, oh, I I actually feel that you could be threatening, which is sort of the same. And um you know, did you suddenly elevate him to a body sata?

Exactly. when exposed or criticized exposed I would maybe felt um respected critic critic as a spiritual teacher. No, I didn’t. I immediately identified myself with a spiritual teacher. Oh, look how good I am and that I figured this out, you know, and uh oh my gosh. And then uh there’s a little bit of pity there that that he could have been in that state and I would put myself above him, right? So yeah. So, so yeah. So this is this is the game, you know, like this is this is the edge to me. That experience that you just described there, that to me is the work. Yeah. Yeah. Like the rest of it is kind of neither here nor there. But that kind of insight where going, “Ah, wow. Why aren’t I full of myself? You know, like haven’t I just And we and you know, I’m not saying you, you know, I’m I mean, most of us are, you know, it’s just so natural because we’re around ourselves, you know, in the royal. We I’m around myself more than anybody else is. So, of course, it’s going to come to the top a lot of times. And so, this is kind of like this um you know, like I Yeah, it is a radical way of looking at things. So like putting everybody else in front of yourself. Even though that was a Christian thing that I grew up, it’s just not to me. I’m sorry I’m overly practical. Like if I take care of this, then everybody will benefit. If I’m a complete mess, nobody’s going to want to be around. So I see that as well. But like the danger and that’s why this teaching of non-self or the strategy of non non not sorry not non-self not self comes in too. But it it is until it’s a little bit more realized, it is just more con conceptual things. So that what we’re talking about here is wisdom. You know, how do we what do we do when the rubber meets the road? You know, how do we how do we how do we hold and respond based on you know what’s in the heart? We well you you know you there I I don’t know that it is conceptual I think to really when when you sort of have some kind of I don’t know barrier like that where you go oh someone like my own mind hit me with wet fish that I just actually wasn’t the person I thought I was. I just think that’s the best. Like I think I think it’s really Yeah, I think it’s the best cuz I’m just like it keeps you kind of um it keeps you in check, you know.

It is it’s a weird um So for me, what was going on there, at least when I reflect on it, is there was a there was a hurt there, you know, a pain. So I didn’t know where it was coming from, if it was him or me. Either way, it doesn’t matter that that I don’t want anybody, including myself, to be in that pain. But then but then in another way it’s a selfish thing instead of going up to him you know and ask hey is everything okay you know how you doing um you know what what’s going on I I immediately got like defensive and and you know in a sense this is all more subtle in general and I thought this hurts u what can I do to get out of this you know how can I fix this basically you know so yeah so holding both of those things at the same time right the selfishness of I want to get out of this uncomfortable, painful feeling. Um, you know, uh, but I also know that there’s potential for mutual um, un unwwellness here and what should I do about it, you know, but me first. Yeah.

So, this morning I was just sitting at the breakfast table. We were having breakfast, my partner and I, and um and I just said, “It’s like I can feel all the pain, like all the rubbish things that I experience, and I feel like I’m constantly being punched.” You know, there’s my the sort of my tender soft body is being kind of punched by the my interactions and the and the hurts that I feel in the body. I I it’s hard to explain how how vulnerable not and I’m not sure I feel vulnerable but it means then I don’t feel entirely happy or entirely horrible. I just feel um like this this body mind is experiencing kind of pleasant and unpleasant sort of moment by moment one thing after the other.

Yeah. And this is vda pleasant unpleasant and and neither of those and it does get a little bit uh strange and weird is when we get we have all we have all that going on at once um multiple times you know um but I I I really like I hear I feel sort of sensations but this was it’s starting to feel very very immediate like as if someone is punching me all the time. And yeah, I’ve started to look at Yeah. So I’ve started to look at the physical experience. So I listen to podcasts sometimes and I just go, “Oh yeah, I’m not going to listen to that.” And then I realized actually it’s my body which is sort of feeling uncomfortable and then I go, “Yeah.” Well, you know, that that it is kind of like a gauge of what to, you know, gravitate towards and what to go away from. And sometimes there’s a there’s a huge wisdom in that and we should pay attention to that. And other times it it’s it’s not helpful. Do do you know what I mean? Like sometimes it’s just indulging in our um indulging what we want to indulge in, but other times I think there’s a there’s a wisdom in and in protecting protecting us and what to engage in, you know. So, it’s not so simple cut and dry all the time because yeah, some things I should I feel really pleasant about that I shouldn’t and other times I feel like repulsed or hurt by things that that that aren’t really serving me or anyone else either. So, yeah, it’s a really complex thing. Yeah. Go ahead.

So, what do you what do you reckon about these bodhis sattvas? like where do you and I guess you know you’re you’re living you spend your time between Denmark and the US and uh different countries and stuff and so your body kind of really must be affected by by those experiences those interactions and like have you have you what have you noticed that is different that maybe five years ago you just didn’t really you know you just kind of went oh yeah it’s like that and then Now you go ah this is kind of ah I’ve changed in this way you know I just live in my head that way I don’t have to deal with the body so I’m half I’m half joking but uh uh you know but but there is there is some of that so like yeah as far if it’s bodybased I don’t think it’s it’s it’s changed all that much. I I would actually say now I’m not as embodied as I used to and I but not horribly significantly way you know I’m just doing a different meditation practice which I think has a huge effect. Um, but like it’s a really good point uh to to bring that back in and reflect more of that question. You’re going to have to refle frame it a little bit, but I I will say just to kind of deflect it a little bit is that um even though I’m more internally focused now, it’s still there’s so much external focus, right? when we’re trying to navigate in a in a foreign country or now really without a um a place of my own, without a car of my own. It’s it’s amazing how now I’m I’m reoriented externally more and more. You know, I still have daily practice. I still haven’t missed any of that. That’s my kind of ground being. That’s when I can really go inside and reassess and relax. It’s almost to the point now where there’s um there’s like a kind of a a stress or like this mental I don’t know like fragmentation or something that that I have to go into meditation that it’s just it like it it screams out by the time it gets to that point in the day and it is a huge relief and it’s like a reset and and a cleansing and a restabilization and a building of coherence that I I really can’t imagine living without these days, you know, it’s an absolute necessity before almost anything else, which is so wild. Um, but sorry, that was a long-winded way to say what was your question again?

I I was really curious to see how maybe the practices have influenced the way that you kind of experienced the world and it doesn’t matter whether these ones or other ones given that you live in different countries and perhaps um before maybe you thought oh you’re kind of a bit self-righteous and sure and now you just kind of are a little bit more circumspect and maybe a bit more humble like like where are you wrong what have you been wrong with And um what was that? What sort of has changed? Cuz that’s that’s not a problem to be wrong. It’s great to be wrong cuz then you’re just kind of going, “Oh yeah, that door shut. Yeah, I was a bit ludicrous with that one.” So yeah, that’s what I’m curious about.

I I will will say that I actually um have more self-confidence now. Healthy, you know what I mean? Because then I don’t I’m not afraid to go do things in in a sense. You know what I mean? um almost like um uh almost like I need more pulling back and restraint, but I’m I’m forced due to circumstances to keep going and moving. But what what I will say is I’ll just point back um to relationship and how utterly challenging and rewarding it is and it’s not really um I don’t think it’s it’s a little bit too private to go into you know publicly but that’s where what when we have a partner they they don’t let us get away with stuff anymore right you know they’ll point out all of our crap just and just wave it in our face and just be and some days I hate it and some days I’m so grateful for U you know and there really is no getting away with our BS anymore where we’re in a relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. Like somebody on a on a retreat said um is that my cat or is that in your house in your place? So I heard like a tinker.

There’s no cats in in there.

Okay. Um it must be my cats kind of about to appear.

There’s four cats where I’m at now though or where I’m sitting. Okay. Um but I uh what was I what was before I got partnership? We were talking about partnership.

Yeah. So there was somebody who said maybe in the olden days monastic life was kind of where you kind of rubbed up against your stuff and then now maybe marriage you know whatever form that takes you know um is the equivalent that it’s tough because you know you get shortteered you get tired you get windy whiny you get resentful you get all these things that just you have to kind of keep constantly in check to make sure that the relationship is wellmaintained and positive and optimistic and also not concurrently sell yourself. you know, like you don’t want to negate your own experience and your own sense of well-being and your own like you do have have needs and and like just and and the importance of of feeling respected and dignity and all that sort of stuff. So um yeah, I think I think it’s definitely an edge and I think that practice which I have which is the two of them which is to notice all the small things that people do to help me feel at ease. That’s that’s just like such gold. And the other one is what am I not seeing about this? When I’ve got a problem my mind’s woring. And I think those two are definitely like it helps me, it keeps me in check from the resentment, the assumption, the self-righteousness, how I can be difficult and obnoxious and unkind and mean-spirited like. So, I’m doing this course at the moment, which is every Thursday for I think we’re up to week five now. So, last week I we had an exercise and this young woman, very timid young woman, said she said, “What’s your favorite, you know, thing about your cat?” And I just sort of went, “Oh, actually, I have a lot of issues with my cat.” like but she but I didn’t want to acknowledge it actually and I and I felt really and I was kind of a bit mean in my reply. I’m like, “How could you cut out?” You know, I just kind of responded like that. And so yesterday, first thing I did is I went, “Oh, I’m so sorry for being mean.” And all the rest and just to check in how she felt, whether she was okay with it. And and also to say, “Actually, I’ve I’ve taken measures to sort out the relationship with the cat.” But but I kind of think like in some ways these practices of a body sata just bring it back. Is that really kind of the go? Is that is it that sort of stuff where when you have been mean to your partner to a you know somebody in the course to just go ah yeah actually I need to rethink my own role in creating this crappy situation.

Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a good point there. There’s some of us that that need more of that to pull it back and look at ourselves because I tend to blame others. Um, you know, but then there’s other people that are the exact opposite, right? That they’re always wrong. Nobody else can do anything wrong. You know, why am I such this? I’m so, you know, the inferiority and the in the superiority.

Yeah. Well, that was that was beautifully put, Wendy. Um, I’m going to put uh another one on the on the thing here. If those aspiring to enlightenment must even give up their bodies, what need is there to mention external possessions? Therefore, without hope, a return or expectation of karmic reward to practice generosity is the practice of all bodhic sappas, you know.

Yeah. I mean, who needs this body just, you know, to sacrifice it for anything? I mean, no, I’m I’m being a little bit cheeky there, but uh you know, this is um uh yeah, how how much are we really willing to give up? And uh especially with you you just mentioned the the body thing and uh yeah, it’s easy to say when we’re not in pain, but when we’re in pain, you know, yeah, we’d like to give that uh pain up too, but um sometimes, you know, how do we do that? And what do we do about it, too? Um and I just wanted to mention on the cushion as well. So like these are all I think uh times for reflecting you know reflecting on this how how am I stacking up like how can I relate to this or how can’t I relate to that and you know where is where am I at what I if I’m in a situation like this like external possessions they’re just like like what happened if all my possessions were given up or what happens if I now inherited a ton of stuff that I now have to deal with or you know have for enjoyment or for burden. So yeah.

Hey Josh, you know how we started a bit late because of technical issues. We can wrap up early. We need to wrap up a little bit early. I’m sorry. I’ve got other things I need.

Please. Exactly. No, we will audited an hour and we’re going to keep to that. So yes.

Yeah. Thanks. Sorry about that. But we will we I hope you have a great weekend. enjoy Illinois and um and yeah, we will see. Well, what should we say about the bodhisattva? Just keep keep on keeping on and you know and fail and fail better. That’s all I can say.

My hats off to anybody on the bodhic safa path that’s taking it seriously because to me that’s like going to a casino and signing up to torture and you know torture your like I I don’t even want to gamble. I just want to be taken in the back room and beat up for stealing, you know, uh for for cheating and gambling because yeah, you’re you’re taking on a lot of stuff and so but I benefit and other beings benefit. So it is really admirable, but it it’s a huge it’s like sisophian um task if you’re taking it seriously. So uh yeah, it’s it’s it’s quite something. Uh, with that, uh, yeah, I Well, I wish I wish you a great weekend and enjoy. I don’t know when this video goes out, but have fun and and don’t sweat the small stuff or something.

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

[Ai assist:] Integrating Presence and Echoes and Stories of Dhamma come together in this special swapcast to speak with Bhante Bhikkhu Subhūti, an American Buddhist monastic based in Sri Lanka.

Now in his 20th vassa, Bhante Subhūti reflects on the journey that brought him from lay life into monastic training, and on what two decades of living the monastic life have taught him about practice, discipline, and the mind.

The conversation also explores aspects of meditation practice, including his experience of developing and sustaining a contemplative practice within the monastic environment. Alongside the formal dimensions of Buddhist practice, Bhante Subhūti shares practical reflections and advice for lay practitioners—how the Dhamma can be integrated into ordinary life, and what can genuinely support spiritual development beyond the meditation cushion.

Chapter Titles (with approximate timestamps):

Bhante Bhikkhu Subhuti:

Ani Yudrön Echoes & Stories Of Dhamma:

Here’s just a outline of a sampling of a portion of the talk:

Josh: I’d like to jump into a key Dhamma topic: concepts. In basic practice, concepts like the body or the breath help us anchor attention. But as practice deepens, we learn that even the “breath” or the “body” are conventional concepts (paññatti), and the practice eventually requires discerning ultimate materiality (rūpa) and mentality (nāma).

Could you talk about the role concepts play in practice, how they can be wholesome (kusala), and where their limitations lie?

Bhante Subhūti: We must distinguish between conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and ultimate truth (paramattha-sacca).

Even the Buddha used conventional concepts. He referred to himself, called people by their names, and addressed his monks as “Bhikkhus.” He didn’t walk around saying, “Listen closely, ultimate materiality and mentality over there!” He didn’t speak exclusively in terms of kalāpas (subatomic units), cittas, or cetasikas in everyday conversation. In the Sutta pitaka, the Buddha spoke in conventional terms so people could understand. The Abhidhamma provides the detailed “scientific footnotes” underneath those conventional statements.

Think of it like water. Conventionally, we call it “water.” In ultimate chemical reality, it’s H_2O—hydrogen and oxygen molecules. Even a chemist asks for “a glass of water,” not “H_2O.” We need conventional language to communicate.

How Concepts Function in Practice:

The Mistake with Breath Meditation:

Many practitioners confuse ultimate physical sensations with the concept of the breath. When people focus on the breath at the nostrils, they often start focusing on four-element sensations: hardness, heaviness, heat, or movement.

When you focus on physical sensations (temperature, pressure, tension), you are focusing on ultimate physical realities, not the concept of the breath.

To illustrate a concept: Imagine standing by a highway watching traffic.

In Ānāpānasati (mindfulness of breathing), the breath must be taken as a continuous concept, ignoring individual elemental sensations (heat, pressure). Once the concept is stabilized, it transforms into a light mark (nimitta).

Josh: That’s a brilliant clarification. Could you give us a brief structural overview of the Pa-Auk meditation system, from samatha to vipassanā?

Bhante Subhūti: Pa-Auk Sayadaw did not invent a new system. He took the classic roadmap provided in the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha-saṅgaha and systematized it into a step-by-step practical curriculum.

Stage 1: Samatha (Developing Concentration)

Stage 2: Rūpa-Kammaṭṭhāna (Mentality & Materiality)

Stage 3: Paṭicca-Samuppāda (Dependent Origination)

Stage 4: Vipassanā (Insight Practice)

Other conversations with Ani / Asoka:

In this transcript Ai removed timestamps as well as most misspellings corrected (names except Ani), technical terms, place names). Light punctuation and minor smoothing for readability while remaining faithful to the spoken content. Speakers clearly labeled.

Josh:
Hey, wholeness and welcome. This is Josh of Integrating Presence and I’ll soon be joined by co-host Anie, formerly known as Ahsoka, for this swap cast with her Echoes and Stories of Dharma podcast. We’ll be joined by guest Bhante Subhuti Bhikkhu. We didn’t do a formal introduction in this. You’ll soon learn all you need to know that an introduction would cover. So without further ado, here it is.

Anie:
Hello. Good evening, Bhante.

Bhante Subhuti:
Good evening. How are you today?

Anie:
I’m doing okay.

Bhante Subhuti:
Yeah, we just had a lot of chanting and it’s something I do every day. Nearly every day. We just had a sāmanera who we had a special day for because he’s flying out to Myanmar to go to the Pa-Auk study center in Pyin Oo Lwin. So he’s only 12 years old. So we had like a big… a lot of coconut lamps, coconut oil lamps. Yeah, we had maybe 20 of them or something. So it’s good.

Anie:
So well, you have had an interesting journey coming from being a computer programmer into becoming a renunciant and homeless, start living with uncertainty and completely different culture as well. You’ve written a book Going for Broke which is available on your website, and there’s a lot of reflection on your journey from starting to take this shift, turnaround in your life. Would you tell us a bit about how you settled in Sri Lanka eventually? Give you as much time as you need.

Bhante Subhuti:
Okay. It’s like having your own… I’ll try to give a shorter version. Yeah.

So for me, I got into spirituality probably when I was like 17 or 18. I think about 17. I asked my parents… I asked my mother to buy me a book called Be Here Now. Remember Be Here Now by Ram Dass. And surprisingly, it’s a lot of people’s first spiritual books, at least in my generation. But I really… it was just a little bit of curiosity of what spirituality is and what those… because I was just 17. Especially in the 80s there wasn’t really any spirit… you were really weird if you were into spirituality. And like the Buddhist section in the early 90s in Barnes & Noble… we used to have bookstores if you remember… and the whole Eastern philosophy section was maybe like three feet wide. It was like one shelf and one or two shelves on a bookshelf and that would include like Hindu and Mahayana, Tibetan, and there would be nothing in Theravāda. There’d just be maybe the Majjhima Nikāya or the Dīgha Nikāya and just a few other books. Maybe What the Buddha Taught might have been there and the Dhammapada.

So anyway, when I was in college I took a world religion lecture-hall thing by chance because it was my first year and I was just signing up for any classes that I could get into. And when I learned about Buddhism I thought that Buddhism would be a good religion for me, mostly because I didn’t party when I was in university. I didn’t drink, I didn’t do drugs. And so the rules… there’s only five precepts… and the rules seemed very simple for me. And so then I asked a friend to teach me meditation who used to go to UC Berkeley, which was one of the places you could find spirituality in the late 80s and early 90s. And he came back to a local school that I was going to and I knew his brother. He was like an older brother of a friend of mine and I asked him to teach me meditation and he taught me meditation how to count my breath and the basic… count up to 10 and back to zero. In the Pa-Auk method they say count… or even the Visuddhimagga actually they say count five is too small and 10 is too large so you should usually pick eight because it’s close to the Eightfold Noble Path. So but he taught me how to count the breath and I was just thinking like, should I light a candle? And he’s like, if you want to light a candle you can light a candle. I said, should I light some incense? And he says, if you want to light some incense you can light some incense. And so I did that and it was something that I kept up for a good portion of the remainder of my life actually.

So I learned how to meditate and kept meditating and then I saw some advertisements for meditation on the bulletin board and ended up joining what ended up being like some type of computer cult and teaching meditation. No drugs, no alcohol, but you sort of get high off of meditation. And everyone was like… you go to these parties where you just meditate and have fun and they were really high-vibe parties. They’re really cool and you mingle around and there’s like college students and there’s like other people who are a little older in their 30s or 40s and everyone’s a computer programmer who’s a professional and then later they want you to become a computer programmer as well. And so I was into it and I decided to try it out. It wasn’t my major in university. I was supposed to be a school teacher and back then… it’s not like computers nowadays… not many people had computers and at that time I didn’t have a computer actually. Very few people owned computers. We might have a computer lab. You had to take a test in order to go into the computer lab during that time. You had to prove that you could copy files by typing the commands back then and people were afraid of computers. And being a computer programmer is like you had to be really brave because the computers were not as friendly as they are now. And I ended up graduating with a degree in technology education. It sounds good for someone who’s going to become a computer programmer, but it has nothing to do with computer programming. And there’s another major called educational technology, which is about bringing technology into the classroom. That’s a different major. It’s reverse words.

So after I graduated I joined that thing and then I became a computer professional with a different degree. I ended up fast-tracking into the computer industry and they wanted us to make a lot of money and they told us how to do it and we went direct. My first job was contracting, consulting, and just straight in. And I never had like a full-time corporate job. And we learned how to do that and know our stuff cold and get into the business. And so I decided to leave that group because it was getting more businessy instead of spiritual. It used to be very spiritual. We used to meditate with the teacher. It was like really fun. Incredible experiences actually. And then so I decided to leave after I became a professional for like a year or maybe like a year or so. And then I just went to different jobs.

And my third job was working for Bayer Diagnostics, you know, the aspirin company, the medical pharmaceutical. They’re a chemical company actually. And we were making a blood meter. And the first… I was brought in because the project was late. The human blood project. It counts your red blood cells, your white blood cells, and this other thing called new… new XY. I don’t even know what those are. But we made this machine and then the second phase was an animal blood machine. And the animal blood machine I found out later was used for animal laboratory testing.

So I was a vegetarian at that time and there was one other vegetarian… you know, this type of stuff, you were like a weirdo back then if you were a vegetarian. They didn’t have vegetarian menus at restaurants. You know, I was there to watch Starbucks do soy milk lattes… like when they first started doing them it was like a secret thing that you had to know about. But so yeah, I was a vegetarian. There was one other vegetarian in the whole complex and she told me about this animal laboratory testing thing and I decided that I couldn’t work on the project and that I would leave. And I gave six months notice and I continued to work on the human blood machine. And generally speaking, the code is nearly the same for the animal blood machine except a little bit of a user interface to select which animal’s blood you’re testing. But generally speaking, especially from my end, the sections of the code that I was particularly working on… it was all the same. And so they told me to work on the human machine because I refused to work on the animal phase two project. And so they told me to just continue working on the human blood machine and they would copy my code into the phase two codebase. And eventually I had to leave. They were paying me lots of money and I wasn’t doing much work because most of the development was on phase two. And so they wanted me around because it was medical diagnostic equipment and I could fix my own bugs like in an hour and it might take someone two weeks to do it. So whatever they paid me per week, per hour, whatever, it was a bargain. But eventually I decided to leave and I gave them six months notice. And that was a catalyst for me to go traveling. It was something that I always wanted to do. I thought that because I was a contractor or consultant that I would have long breaks in between jobs because it would be difficult to get a job, but it wasn’t that way. And I just went from one job to the next and my jobs were very long-term actually, even though it was based on short-term hire. Originally it was short-term hires, but they ended up lasting a long time. So I never took a vacation. I barely took any days off. And then I just went all or nothing and I got a backpack and a ticket to go halfway around the world and I was ready for a big journey which I wrote about.

And I should backtrack a couple steps. I did Goenka. When I left that teacher, I started in the Tibetan world because it was closest to like what the teacher was doing. And then I went to the Mahayana world, Chinese Buddhism, Vietnamese Buddhism. And I was doing the teacher training course in a Vietnamese temple. And from there I learned about the White Lotus Sutra. And I learned that it’s okay to lie if you have a good reason. And I was like, this is nonsense. And I completely rejected Mahayana because of that. And at the same time we were assigned a book to summarize and teach. And I had picked The Wings to Awakening by Ajahn Thanissaro. These are the 37 factors of enlightenment called the bodhipakkhiyā dhammā. And it was a good book. And at that time we also had to do a retreat, a 10-day, 7-to-10-day retreat per year as part of this course type thing that I was doing, this teacher training course. And so immediately I became immersed in Theravāda and I rejected Mahayana, Tibetan. And I was just so amazed with the structure of the Theravāda suttas. And being someone who learned about education, we have a saying in the business: say what you’re going to say, say it, say what you said. And if you look at the suttas, you know, the Buddha, he will say, here are the five things of blah blah blah. And then he lists them out and he said, these are the five things, you know, and this is where it leads to. And then you reach Nibbāna. Sādhu, sādhu. So it really grabbed me about how straightforward the teachings were. There was like no mysterious… there was nothing mystical and it was very straightforward, it’s very common sense. And I was like, wow, this is what I should be doing.

And when I did my first Goenka retreat… and a lot of Westerners, now you can have many entrances into Buddhism and spirituality, but one of the main entrance ways back in the 90s, early 90s… actually this was in the late 90s… was to do a Goenka course. It’s one of the only things around. Otherwise you’d have to spend $200–$300 a night doing a Tibetan or doing the IMS classes. Actually they’re about $80 or $100 a night at that time. And so I did the Goenka thing and I really loved it. I just had so much faith in it because on the first night I ate a lot of extra food on the first night and then there’s like a video recording and he’s like, so you ate a lot of food didn’t you? And I was like, how does he read my mind? Then I was like, no, this is a recording. So I was like, he knows human nature. And so then I followed the teachings and I believed that you could do everything in the teachings that what he was teaching. So I had a really great experience there. And I remember on the 10th day they allow you to talk and they do loving-kindness. Everyone’s talking and I just want to stay in this… they give you this like pagoda room or something like that. It was just like when I got there I was like, this is all I need. I just need a little meditation closet and I’ll be okay. And I remember crying on the last day because everyone’s talking and I didn’t want it to end. And I wanted this to be my life.

And so step forward, go ahead a few years, not so many, a few more years. Then I quit my job, bought a plane ticket going halfway around the world and I thought maybe I could become a monk. We’ll see what happens. And so anyway, I decided to go to monasteries and look at monasteries where I would maybe stay for six, seven years just like someone in America looks at a college, a university and says, do I want to stay here for four years? So my brother and sister did extensive looking at universities to go and stay and doing the tour and I was dragged along as the youngest sibling. And so I looked at monasteries in the same way and I went to Bhavana Society. I went to Abhayagiri. I went to Wat Metta in America. And then I went off to Hawaii. And I got lost in Hawaii. And I was supposed to find retreat centers to volunteer at. They don’t let people volunteer there. Not like the Goenka courses. So I got lost. I was like living on the beach and I was just… I had a good time there. But it was like one of the times when I wasn’t meditating and I was losing my Buddhist path while I was in Hawaii in Kauai specifically, which is a place I actually went back to as a monk. I stayed there for five months and then I went to Fiji and this is where some magic happened. And you know I think you know the story but I was in the ocean in Fiji. We were playing a game called Shark Attack. I don’t recommend doing that, but we were pretending we’re in a Jaws movie. Okay. And you know, who could pretend that they were getting eaten by a shark the best? And I never do that. Never enact something like that. It’s so bad to do. But I was young and there were two other German travelers with me. We were in the ocean just doing nothing because that’s what you do in Fiji. And a couple hours later I looked at my watch to find out when tea time was… there was no watch and I lost my watch. And one of the girls said that she thought that seaweed fell off my hand, but it was actually my watch with a Velcro. Sorry about this.

And so I got a mask from the office from the backpacker place I was staying at and I started looking for it but it was nowhere to be found. And then later at night it was low tide and I started looking for it and I couldn’t find it at all. And then that night I started to think about that watch in particular which was a countdown timer for my meditations. It was my alarm clock for waking up early. And that was like sort of like my Buddhist device that I used to stay in check. But starting when I went to Hawaii and especially in Fiji, I stopped really using it for that. And so I started to think later that night when it was time to sleep like what’s happening to me? What happened? I was supposed to like… we call it sit and serve. I was supposed to volunteer at meditation centers and I became just like other backpackers. And obviously I was a little different from the other backpackers but nevertheless I was a traveler and I was living on the beach. I was living in a tent. And so I was thinking about it that night and then in the morning I woke up early which was while the sun was rising… for Fiji that’s waking up early… and I noticed that the tide was low again, the water was low again and I thought, you know, maybe I can find my watch.

And I started to think about all the times I wanted to become a monk but I just couldn’t get myself to really fully commit because for me I wanted to really just do it just once. The idea of a temporary monk just really didn’t seem… I heard about that but it just wasn’t something for me and I wanted to really commit and it was like getting married for me. And so anyway, I’m looking at the water. I see that it’s low and I’m thinking about, you know, well maybe I can find my watch. And I said to myself very quickly, because the mind is very quick while I’m walking out, I’m thinking about all the times I wanted to become a monk and I’m like, I’m going to do it. No, I’m not going to do it. I’m going to do it. I’m not going to do it. And I said to myself, if I find my watch… I’m thinking about how impossible it is to find a watch that’s been in the ocean for almost a whole day and the whole night. And I’m thinking about how difficult it would be to find it. And I was like, if I find my watch, I’ll definitely become a monk. No more games, no more fooling around. And you know, this is like a split second, you know, while I’m walking out to the beach and all of a sudden I see something in the distance, you know, it’s just flapping in the waves and it looks like seaweed and but it looks different than everything else. So I go a little closer and there I can see my watch strap. The watch is actually half buried in the sand. It’s half buried in the sand. And as the waves are going through it, it’s in the morning, the waves are calm. And I’m in like one and a half feet of water or something like that. And the waves going over it and it’s covering it with a layer of sand. When the wave pulls back you could see the face of the watch and the strap is floating. This Velcro strap. I still have it actually. So I’m just looking at it. I’m like, you know, I pick it up and I’m just looking at it and I’m just like, what did I promise? What was that thing I was thinking about, you know? And so I just… it was a really cool moment. I was like on the beach, you know, and I can just relive that moment when I tell the story. And I just remember just looking at my watch, you know, and just like, wow, like he got me. And yeah. And so I knew I’d become a monk at that time, but I didn’t know exactly when I would do that.

And so I got comfortable in Fiji. I was like, hey, this is pretty cool. I’ll just stay here for a while. It was like $15 a day, I think, to survive with food and lodging and everything at these backpacker places. And basically could live there forever. Maybe it was $30 a day. Can’t remember, but I think it was $30 New Zealand. They had the same currency as New Zealand and that was like two to one at that time. But anyway, I was really comfortable there. And then all of a sudden… I was staying at a New Zealand-owned backpacker place and at that time there was a coup and they started to… they wanted to not let foreigners own businesses in Fiji and the main island was on fire, the main island, but I was on a small island and we had a meeting and they said, you know, just stay where you are. It was like living on the East Coast and during the LA riots in the 90s… it didn’t really matter. It was very far away. But lo and behold, someone decided to burn the place, you know, with the whole revolution or whatever. And so then I got evacuated to New Zealand and a little push out of my comfort zone. And then after New Zealand I pushed my trip through. I had like an itinerary and I wanted to just push through. I had an open ticket and I could adjust it. And I went to Australia after that and then I went to India and then in India I was at Sai Baba’s ashram then and I remember also doing like a challenge like if someone steals my slippers I’ll definitely cut this trip short and I’ll just head to Thailand to ordain. And no one was taking my slippers. The first day someone took my slippers and so then I was thinking, you know, like if someone takes my slippers I’ll cut the trip short but I remember at that time that I was hoping that someone would take my slippers. The slippers are flip-flops and sandals. In India they call that the slippers. In Asia and Hawaii they call them slippers. I wanted someone to take my slippers at that time and then I knew in my heart that I wanted to become a monk. It wasn’t like I was forced to because I found my watch. And so no one took my slippers and I was okay with it. And but I just knew in my heart that I wanted to become a monk at that time.

And so I checked into… I went to… I cut my trip short in India. I was like living on the plane and just checking… I’m living on the train. Sorry. I was living on the train like getting off the train looking at some things, taking pictures and then hopping back on the train and sleeping on the train and going to the next place because I really wanted to move things along. Went to Nepal and then I went to Wat Pah Nanachat and I wanted to do this. I wanted to start the monk process while I was still 29 because the Buddha was 29 when he left. And I walked into Wat Pah Nanachat the day before my birthday in 2000, October 5th, 2000. And so I went to Wat Pah Nanachat and it wasn’t the perfect place, but it was the best place that I could find. And but I really didn’t like it. I didn’t like it at all. I remember someone saying to me, you know, like usually if you have business experience you don’t really do well in here. And it was true. I wasn’t really happy, but I was gonna ordain. And I like signed my life away and sent a DHL package to get rid of all the… to do all the legal stuff. And I went… the Abbot put me on this kuti Ajahn tour, which is like to see all these enlightened teachers. And I became less inspired. I was supposed to get inspired by it, but I became less inspired by it. And I had a book, Knowing and Seeing, which is Pa-Auk Sayadaw’s main book. It’s like cliff notes to the Visuddhimagga actually, on how to do it. And I had that book signed out of the library. Someone had just brought it from Burma, from Myanmar, a little bit before that. And the Abbot before he signed me up on that tour, he asked me what’s wrong. And he says… I said, well, you know, it’s not the perfect place, but it’s the best place I could find. He says, what’s your perfect place? I said, well, you know, I have a kuti on the mountain and I go down the mountain to get my food and I meditate all day and meditate all night and then I go to sleep and then I wake up, meditate, and then I go down the mountain to have my food and then I come back up and do this every day. And when I have a meditation experience, I go to the master and I say, Master, I’ve experienced something. And he says develop it or reject it. And then I go back to my kuti and I just do that. He says, well, you know, there is one place… this was Ajahn Jayasaro actually. And he says there is one place and he told me about Pa-Auk. We didn’t have really the internet, you know. It’s like nobody knew about Pa-Auk. You had to like know people who knew people back then. It was different clientele back then. And usually you were recommended Pa-Auk in the early 2000s and it was like… it was considered a dangerous place. I mean there was like six countries on the embargo list, you know, there’s like North Korea, Iran, maybe Congo or something like that and some other places and then there’s Myanmar, you know, like places you really just shouldn’t go, you know. And I went there.

So he told me about the place and I grabbed the book and I was reading the book while I was looking at these enlightened… you know, they’re supposed to be enlightened monks and I’m reading Pa-Auk Sayadaw’s book. And so I quickly just bought a plane ticket. I left and I bought a plane ticket to go to Myanmar. And I still had a credit card with me. And so I had arranged for my credit card to be paid while I was traveling and with my mother because she was a co-signer on my bank account and so I did a cash advance, bought a plane ticket and I went to Myanmar and at that time I was dressed in white clothes, white robes and I went in there and they don’t get many Westerners especially that time, definitely the ones dressed in like yogi robes. And the anagārika, the Thai anagārika robes. I just had, you know, a shoulder cloth, no shirt or anything. And it was January I think when I came there and I remember being in the line and the security people they were like yogi yogi yogi yogi and they just pushed me right through the line just like I was a monk as if I were a monk. When you’re a monk you get to go through immigration really quickly. So then I had Pa-Auk written on a piece of paper and I went into the Abhidhamma Propagation Society. It was like a booth and I said how do I get to this Pa-Auk place and they had a telephone there which was rare.

Anie:
Yes. So you arrived in Myanmar on your anagārika.

Bhante Subhuti:
Yes. Yes. So I’m in the airport and they pushed me right through like a monk. Monks have easy times in the airport in immigration. And but it was a little scary. I mean, there was like, you know, there was a lot of security and it was… I was going to a place where it didn’t have a good reputation, whatever. But I decided to go anyways and I just wanted to go to the monastery. And so I had a piece of paper and I went to… they had Pa-Auk’s name on it. I didn’t even know… it sounds so foreign and I had a piece of paper with me and I went to the Abhidhamma Propagation Society and they had a telephone there which is rare and they happened to know someone on the committee of Pa-Auk and so then I went to Pa-Auk. They put me on a bus. I got put on a bus and then they had someone pick me up from the bus station. Bus station in Myanmar is almost like an airport. Like they have… I don’t know if you ever been on a bus in Myanmar. They have like ladies who are like flight attendants on the bus. So yeah, most people take the bus like you would take an airplane in America. And so anyway, I go to Pa-Auk and it was just incredible. I was just like, sign me up. I want to… I definitely want to do this. And Pa-Auk Sayadaw was sick at that time. He spent a lot of time in Singapore. And then he had just come back like a couple weeks after I was there. And he’s like, when do you want to ordain? And I’m like… I was like, let me make sure my credit card bill is paid off and that I have permission from my parents. And there was like a whole big thing about getting permission from my parents. But I eventually did. And then I ordained. It was February 7th, 2001. And it was really really great. And there was 198 monks at my ordination day, but normal population day is actually about 122 at that time. So it was a very special day that I ordained and it was like the annual meeting of Pa-Auk which was also the full moon day and I asked if I could ordain on the full moon day and so I ordained and it was a really great life and we could meditate and I used to be very close to Sayadaw and used to walk up the mountain with him and he used to send me his extra fruit. Fruit was very difficult to get at that time and so it was good. We used to talk a lot. I used to suggest a lot of things like Americans do and so it was really good.

There was a problem with the visas. So one of the things I also wanted to fix before I ordained was a long-term visa. I say about… I say that in my “Where to Ordain.” Make sure you have a visa before you ordain. And they did my visa without going out of the country and coming back. And so they changed the class of the visa to a renewable religious visa without me going out of the country and coming back. And I was the first monk to actually do this new process. Someone knew someone who knew someone’s Buddhist country. And so you could do all this type of stuff. And so I was the first person to actually do this new method. And in 2007 there was a new minister, immigration minister, and he wanted to do things more by the book. And he was looking at the history of everyone who had… who was doing a renewal. And he looked at the original visa and he saw that mine was a tourist visa. And there was actually 300 other people, 300 other monks and visitors and whatever who had done the same process who changed a tourist visa over to a residential visa. And so then we all got kicked out. It was like 300 of us. We didn’t get kicked out, we just didn’t get a renewal. They didn’t tell me whether I was rejected or not rejected. And a lot of times in Myanmar the immigration office takes a long time and then you end up having to pay late fees as part of the process. Like you submit it eight weeks in advance, six to eight weeks in advance, and it ends up still being late, and then you pay late fees. And this also was a problem, but it was just part of doing business. So I had like $100 or so of fees and I just said okay I’m going to go to Sri Lanka. We had known some… we had every so often we have a group of monks from Nā Uyana who come to Pa-Auk to meditate and they’re usually the best of the best that they send. And so it looks like a good group of people and instead of the general population that we see and so I decided to go to Sri Lanka one way instead of going to Thailand up and down because I was allowed to leave the country and come back with a sponsorship letter and do it properly. I was allowed to come back but I decided that I wanted a change and that I would go to Sri Lanka one way for the same nearly the same price and so I went to Sri Lanka in 2007. So that’s how I ended up in Sri Lanka.

And then what happened was there was a lot of people reordaining at that time and I also decided to reordain as well because I had a lot of… I had some doubt about my original ordination because someone accused my original ordination of not being valid because I worried… one of the times during one of the questions I had a small bit of uncertainty and I didn’t… he… I didn’t really know but I said okay well they ask about whether you are free from government service and so I remember I knew that that meant that if you’re an active duty and you’re a deserter that’s what it means. But in between like the ceremony, they ask you twice. One is sort of for practice and another one is the real thing. And as soon as they ask me during the ordination ceremony, you know, are you free from that? I started to remember about being registered for the draft, something that all Americans have to do. And on top of that I had made a big thing over it too. So I refused to sign it until they threatened to put me in jail and then I signed it. So I remembered and I was like, does this count? Does this count? Does this count? And I’m like, no, no, it can’t count. I’m too old and I have college degree and there’s so many other reasons I can get out of it. And then I also thought I was like, well, there’s American monks. Obviously I met American monks before. If it was not possible, then they wouldn’t ordain either. I was like, you’re just acting crazy. You’re just worrying too much. And I said, I’ll say yes and I’ll check tomorrow. And so I said yes that I’m free from the obligation… I’m not a deserter and not an active duty. And it’s called rājabhaṭa. And the… I checked with a Sri Lankan monk who’s famous for accusing monks of doing the wrong things and he’s got a pretty big pointer finger. I didn’t know that at the time. I didn’t know that until much later actually. And he said, oh, you answered correctly, but it’s a moment of truth. You’re not supposed to be worried. You’re not supposed to be embarrassed. You’re not supposed to be afraid. And they tell you that. And so if you answer with… if you are worried, afraid, embarrassed, whatever, then it’s considered lying.

And so then, but I had… I didn’t fully evaluate this, okay? Because I had pushed out my doubt actually right before saying yes. Actually, it wasn’t like a conscious lie. I thought it was good enough. And so anyway, he said that my ordination because I lied, I lost my sāmanera. And then there was… there used to be a myth. It only disappeared like six years ago that you had to be a sāmanera in order to ordain as a full monk. And if you didn’t do that then your ordination wasn’t valid. And so anyway when I went to Sri Lanka this is like the epicenter of this type of doubt and so I got a little worried about my ordination. It all came back to me and so then I reordained. It had nothing to do with like Pa-Auk’s ordination procedure. It was just all me and it turned out like I think during COVID or something like that one of the teachers he says so why did he reordain? And I said the whole thing and then they had to research whether it mattered or not. And so it was only like in 2021 or something like that 2020 that people started to look at this, you know, whether it really mattered and you can ordain directly as a lay person actually. So I lost six years in my seniority. This vassa I’ll be 20 vassa but all in all it was part of the experience and you know we learned there was a lot to learn. I became a junior monk again and I went through the process of being a junior monk and so that was good. It was a good experience and I stayed at Nā Uyana for about six vassa I think it was and I stayed there until 2012 and then I went back to Pa-Auk.

There was a big heat stroke there. There was big sort of a heat wave there. And I needed to go to the mountains. And there was a retreat going on in 2012 at Pyin Oo Lwin. It was the first opening of Pyin Oo Lwin. In the news section is a… it’s a different section that you might know… Pyin Oo Lwin that there’s a few sections of Pyin Oo Lwin… Maymyo we call it… and there was a university section and it was just opening up and we heard that it’s cold there and one of my friends wanted to go there and I decided that I wanted to go too and we… I sent an email to someone I know and we got the sponsorship letters very quickly and we went as a group and then I was in Myanmar for some time.

Anie:
Yeah.

Bhante Subhuti:
So this 2012.

Anie:
Yes. And then so from there 2001 first ordination. Yes. Yes. 2001 first ordination then 2007 go to Sri Lanka 2012 go back to Myanmar. And then I stayed in Myanmar. I did some… I did a trip in Hawaii where I just wandered around Hawaii. I wanted to do that. It was like my dream. And then I took a monk who’s actually the abbot of IIT International Institute of Theravāda, but he wasn’t at that level at the time when we went. And then I went back to Pa-Auk and then I went again to Hawaii for this time for a year and a half. The first trip was six months and the second trip was a year and a half. And I was by myself because I finally memorized the Pāṭimokkha. So I felt confident that I could go alone after 17 years as a monk. I never went alone back to America and so then after that I went back to Pa-Auk and then we had COVID and then International Institute of Theravāda was opening up and I decided that I need some pariyatti experience and I also had a medical problem. I couldn’t meditate. Meditation was making it worse. And so I decided that I could just shift gears, sort of reinvent myself and still find satisfaction and progress in my monk life. And so I ended up at the International Institute of Theravāda, which is a pariyatti monastery. And I did that for two… two and a half years. I can’t remember which. And then I decided I wanted to phase myself back into meditation and also but do it slowly and I started a master’s program at a university in Colombo in Kelaniya and it’s just on Saturdays so you have a lot of free time and so I did that. It’s geared for working people. So that’s the stage where I’m at right now. I finished all the classes and working on a thesis and now we’re in the present.

Josh:
Well, there was quite a journey. Thank you for sharing all that. What really stood out for me that I hadn’t heard of anything is… since being a fellow American I guess here, you know, this notion of the draft and I had to do that too and this was before I was, you know, still completely asleep and I just want to say wow what a good fortune and kamma you have to come to the Dhamma the way you did. You know, a lot of the people I have gone through the dukkha… let’s just put it that way, you know. So it just made my heart so bright and uplifted to hear what kind of good fortune you had around this compared to… yeah. You know what I mean? But we all come in different ways and they’re all beautiful as far as I’m concerned to the Dhamma and… but this notion of the draft, you know, and so what I’m thinking or what’s coming up is like did they give you everything they were going to ask you ahead of time? So my thinking is maybe they didn’t. Were they more spontaneous? Did they tell you what questions they were going to ask? Because if they would have told you ahead of time, you had time to reflect, but still, you know, and could you go to teachers and ask them about that, you know, or how did you manage that ahead of time for preparation, I guess, is what I’m interested.

Bhante Subhuti:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I read the… when I was in the… when I was in Bhavana Society, I read the Buddhist monastic code and I think I talked with Ajahn Thanissaro. I think I read the Buddhist monastic code before that and I even called Ajahn Thanissaro. I met him and so I knew a lot about it and I knew the questions and normally you just do it in Pāli and I said I want to do it in Pāli and English and normally you just like read from a sheet you know and you just read the Pāli and I said I want to do Pāli in English. Okay we’ll give you Pāli in English and that was the mistake actually. I just should have just read from the sheet in Pāli and not really understood what it meant and I just gone through the motions. It just popped into my head like because at the time you were saying it… at the time they ask you twice. They ask you twice because during the ordination ceremony one time is actually technically for practice but it’s the ceremony. Okay. And then the other time is real. This is the standard ordination bhikkhu ordination. And there’s like 2 minutes, 3 minutes in between the two sets of questions when they ask you twice. And so all of a sudden it just pops in my head like so you have time to think because they’re doing some other stuff. They’re chanting some other Pāli and before they ask you again for real and then it just like popped into my mind and there’s a video I think there’s a video… there’s a blog post on this and I talk about the whole experience and… but I pretty much explained the whole thing.

Josh:
I’ll have to check that out.

Bhante Subhuti:
In my mind I asked the wrong… I was actually trying to help people who were reordaining. I was like why are you reordaining and they said that they had money. A lot of them they used money and so politically they were telling people there’s a whole political thing going on there. They were telling people that if you use money you’re not a real monk. Okay? Because you’re a sāmanera… 10 precepts and you take your 10 precepts just before your ordination too. And so then they have money in their pocket. They have money and they’re agreeing to the 10 precepts. Okay, they’re saying that they will take all 10 precepts and using money is not a problem actually. It’s… well it’s a problem. It’s not but it’s not going to cancel your novice ordination. Okay. But when you break five precepts, any one of the first five precepts, you break your… you break your novice ordination. And so you’re still sort of… actually we had to… you know how do you call… we had to like, you know, just really split hairs to try to find out and like Ajahn Thanissaro wrote me and he says don’t worry about it you know you’re still a monk you know you’re still technically a monk don’t worry about it and it’s just undesirable and but I had… I mean his letter just came just the night before I was going to ordain and I already told people I was going to ordain so then I just decided and then the night before also someone told me about the monk who accused me and that he’s… he also accused the mahāthera of bad things and so… so you’ve got the… decided and I went through it and I actually had Sayadaw’s permission. He was living in… at the time they wouldn’t reordain me unless there was permission from Pa-Auk. So I was just worried and then they decided to let me ordain and I got permission and Pa-Auk Sayadaw didn’t really understand my question and he gave me permission. So it’s a fascinating topic or something like that. People ask like why did you…

Josh:
I think it’s a fascinating topic of real-time Dhamma you know and it’s something that that’s really important this… and it’s… well you just illustrated the kind of Saṅgha… I wouldn’t say politics but the Saṅgha involvement that most of us or at least lay people… we don’t get to see behind the scenes of all the things usually going on like that a lot of times. So I appreciate you sharing that. The other thing it ties into American politics too with the drafts.

Bhante Subhuti:
I asked him… yeah. Yeah. I asked a mahāthera about this. He’s like… he has… he’s like a tipiṭaka Sayadaw. Okay. So he has like all the books memorized. Okay. And I don’t know they let me go… they let me go through it. They let me go through with this. And I asked another monk. I said well why did he let me do that? He knew that. And the monk said, if you asked the right question, you would have got the right answer. And all I had to do was ask was my original ordination valid or like… the issue was whether it was a lie. That was the only question I asked. And so then and there’s a whole other things. There’s a whole chain of events that would happen if it was a lie. And so it was very difficult and he was saying well it doesn’t really… it’s not much of a lie he said so what is much of a lie you know and so he was trying not to have me reordain because it was a problem there and but if I had asked like can a lay person directly ordain he would have probably said yes and another monk his name is Daw… Sayadaw Daw… Venerable Daw… he said that if I had asked the right question, it would have got the right answer. But you know, as Popeye says, I am what I am. So I think it’s great to show once you wear the bed sheet, once you wear the bed sheet and reordained, everything’s gone. So I’ll be 20 vassa this year, this rainy season will be my 20th vassa. I would be 25 already today. But I’m not even ready to be a 20-vassa thuga. People, my friend actually just said that to me. He’s like, you’re going to be a 20-vassa. You’re not ready for that. You don’t act like that. And because I act childish a lot of the times. So I’m like learning how to speak Sinhala and I’m speaking Sinhala like a baby because I don’t know how to speak Sinhala.

Anie:
So it’s probably better than mine though.

Bhante Subhuti:
No, it’s… I think that the innocence and the purity is something that should be rejoiced in and celebrated, you know, and for me early on I was confusing innocence with naivety and it’s not… it’s not the same thing, you know, innocence and… you know, it’s not the same as being naive. They’re completely different things and I was confusing the two. So it’s… I think it’s a beautiful thing to have this… when it’s called for and appropriate. Yes. And of course, balancing it with maturity as well. So that they’re both… those can I think can be held. But I think that speaks really well to how… the to the letter of the Dhamma and from what little I’ve heard of your teachings and sharings, I find really inspired that you seem to care deeply about, you know, I would just say like the pure Dhamma, you know, that getting… I shouldn’t say getting it right, but like what’s really wholesome and skillful and beneficial and what’s been handed down to us kind of as our birthright in the Buddhist teachings is really important to you and I find that really inspiring and you know so I think Anie will ask about maybe some of this later but I want to jump into some of the Dhamma questions we have and I don’t know we don’t… I don’t normally prepare and do script but I think it would help keep me on track so you know there’s still room for spontaneity here I think but let’s jump into concepts right. I mean just I’ll start with my own thing you know I’m familiar with kind of… you know an allay level of Buddhist concepts and they they’ve helped me so much you know and but then when I come to learning that even the breath is a concept and I’m like what… I just couldn’t wrap my head around okay it’s a con… the body is a concept then I get that a little bit more because you know where does like this skin really start and stop you know we’re shedding stuff so I kind of get that but the breath is like okay no this is embodied this is this is this is reality but no it’s… no, it’s the body is a concept, right? So as much as this has helped me, what I started… what I started to get to or drawn to this the system is there’s an emphasis eventually and of course I’m not there yet of discerning ultimate materiality and ultimate mentality because that there is an ultimate, right? And I practice with people who I have no reason to believe that they’re lying. That there’s a few that are that are at this level. And I don’t need to get into comparison, conceit, and things like this, but it’s so inspiring for me. And so I thought all the other people who blow this off that say, you know, we you don’t need to practice at that level or anything like that. I’m like, well, I need to see and know at that level myself before I can determine whether it’s needed or not. So it’s a long introduction to start with… you know just start talking about concepts and like what role do they play in practice and how they can be wholesome and useful you know how they can be kusala and and maybe how they can not so I don’t… it’s kind of a big topic but I’ll let you just run with it however you want here.

Bhante Subhuti:
Well, I think that we have a conventional truth and then we have the ultimate truth, right? And you know, even the Buddha, he referred to himself as a Buddha. He referred to other people. He used the word you, you know, he didn’t say, oh, nāmarūpa over there. You know, Tathāgata, right? Tathāgata, though. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, he was like, yeah, that’s true. But he called himself a truth seeker. He called himself the thus-come thus-gone. But actually you know he called people by name. Name is a concept. He… you know he didn’t… he called people. He called his monks bhikkhus. So bhikkhu is a concept. So he used these concepts. You know he didn’t say nāmarūpa. He didn’t say, you know, he didn’t start naming off the materiality, you know, everything in the third person. Materiality, you know, he didn’t say, you know, I’m… He didn’t… He didn’t say listen closely and I will tell you. He… I mean, sorry. He did say, “Listen closely, I’ll tell you.” He didn’t say… He says, “Watch my… watch my… watch.” He didn’t… he didn’t say like the… the words not… it’s just slipped from my mind as I wanted to say it but he didn’t say… it’s not coming to me but he didn’t… he didn’t talk about kalāpas. He didn’t talk about the cittaja rūpas you know causing the speaking. He didn’t talk about… he didn’t talk about the cittaja rūpas talking about movement. He didn’t talk about, you know, all the different types of consciousness and the vīthis and the whole way they work, you know, and but he just used bhikkhus and he used, you know, people’s names and, you know, and he spoke actually in the sutta level, he spoke in very conventional terms actually and what we do is we take the Abhidhamma, which is sort of the footnotes below that, and it explains it. So like we say water, I think I said this before. So we say water, you know, but like if we really looked at the scientific footnotes as to what water is, it’s H₂O, right? It’s hydrogen and oxygen, two oxygen and hydrogen. And it’s just easier to say water, right? But chemically, you know, in the ultimate truth level, it’s just elements, right? It’s just molecules. And so we have to communicate. And even the best physicist and the best chemistry person, he’s going to… he’s going to say, you know, you know, give me a glass of… I need a glass of water. He’s not going to say… he’s not going to say what he really knows deeply. He’s going to… he’s going to speak in conventional truths and he’s going to identify things with conventional truths.

And so when we have practice in terms of conventional truth so like we do loving-kindness for people for beings… it’s a sattasaññā… sattasaññā is the object of loving-kindness and that’s a concept. It’s… as long as you are not looking at the paramattha… as long as you’re not looking at like the ultimate truth is like the… on the atomic level for mind and matter then you are dealing with concepts. You’re dealing with concepts. So this is the difference between samatha and vipassanā. But vipassanā you take real realities and then you see them and then you apply the three characteristics to anicca, dukkha and anattā. It’s impermanent, suffering and non-self. And so you… you did… you… I think I lost you actually but I’ll just keep… I’ll just keep talking.

Josh:
No, I’m still here. Yeah. And to sum up, you know, the Buddha said we use conventional language, but we don’t get fooled by it. So generally speaking with concepts like loving-kindness, we have concepts, you know, of a person that we’re giving loving-kindness to. And in any of the four brahmavihāras any of those right and so we’re giving it… it’s actually sattasaññā… you have the perception of living beings and you’re doing loving-kindness this way. When you follow sīla you know actually… actually we’re supposed to see like the human as dead right… we just… we even have a chant. We have a chant with the four requisites. After we do the four requisites, we have a Sri Lankan chant that we do. It’s in Pāli, but it’s in the Sri Lankan tradition. Maybe it’s in the Thai tradition too. We share a lot of things with the Thai tradition in Sri Lanka. And we say… we say nissito. So it’s like… it’s not a being, it’s not living, right? And because if we look at it in the ultimate reality in just elements, okay, this is like I’m just a dead robot, you know? Warning, warning, warning. So I’m just a… I’m just a robot with software and elements and… but with morality in killing like you perceive life, right? So you have to perceive life in order to kill in order to be guilty of that of killing. So we have to apply concepts to morality in the precepts even like just basic ones like the first five precepts. So we have to use… we have to use concepts but for samatha and… and maybe this will clarify something for you is that concepts don’t change. What can you say more about that’s why we… so if we with the breath okay a lot of people get confused about the breath okay so what happens is most people end up paying attention to four elements when they’re focusing on the breath. What are they… what are they doing they’re focusing on the touch of the breath okay and the touch of the breath happens because of four elements striking the body door. They usually focus on there. There’s hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, light. Right? So these are the six qualities of earth element. Usually people focus on heaviness and they usually get uncomfortable because they’re focusing on heaviness or heat, you know. So this is the fire element. They might be focusing on flowing. Normally you really technically… I covered this before that in the ultimate reality world you don’t… you don’t experience… you don’t experience a water element but or flowing cohesion you don’t really experience that actually on the paramattha level on the… for the pathavī for the kāyadvāra for the body door and then and then there’s the air element which is pushing pulling and supporting so usually if you’re focusing on the breath, you’re focusing on one of those. Especially if you’ve done like a Goenka course or something like that, you’re feeling sensations and stuff like you get really confused. And so that’s focusing on realities instead of focusing on concepts. What is a concept? Breath is breath.

So how do I explain it? So sometimes I explain it like traffic. So you’re in America, right? And you’ve been in Thailand, right? So you can just… no, just Thai forest monasteries. I haven’t been yet. Oh, sorry. Sorry, that was a rhetorical question. Yes. Yeah. So in America, there’s lots of traffic. You might have a clear lane and there might be just endless cars. Okay. So if we look at… if the instruction is to look at vehicle as a concept okay then you have… you look at a… and you’ll see like oh this is Toyota there’s a Mazda this is Tesla this is this is the Ford F-150 this is a white car there’s a blue car there’s… so these are different characteristics of cars we have the make manufacturer different type of vehicle could be a motorbike too and but they’re… if we look at vehicle then they’re all… it’s like a shared general characteristic. And so if you’re driving by and next time you have… next time you’re driving and you have traffic in the opposite lane, take a look at all the cars and try to only pay attention to the general characteristic. That’s what actually what a concept means. And you could look at the books behind you and you can… you can look at a bookshelf and you can just pay attention to the quality of book instead of thick book, red book, blue book like this. So you can just pay attention to the general characteristic.

Josh:
That’s right. So you can… I was going to say yeah the… or the example I’ve heard too is wood. So whether it’s a wooden table, you know, sawdust, you’re burning it or, you know, it’s still growing as a tree, it’s wood is wood, right?

Bhante Subhuti:
Yeah. I mean, that’s a little different though. That’s a little different. I mean, because it’s divided and… and I think… I think the idea of the cars, like I told you… yes, that’s a good one. Is good. And to pay attention to… you can also name something and… and I think that’s very useful is to just know its presence without the characteristics of the four elements. Exactly. That was a huge game changer too. I was like what body sensations are just the four elements changing? Oh, I thought that was… you know what I’m supposed… yeah. So it’s really interesting. So I think we can use this as a bridge to the Pa-Auk system because… well in my own practice I switched to… pathavī kasiṇa because I was having so much challenge with the breath. I have all these good teachings on how to do breath meditation and am I… am I disrespecting this teacher if I don’t do it their way and then this way and then I was really confused like how is a nimitta… what does light have to do with breath and I could get to like maybe a concept of the breath and knowing it as a concept but then it’s like how is that going to bridge over into light and this and that and so it was just really helpful to set all that aside for now and doing earth kasiṇa but what I… so for… I’m probably… everybody listening to this earth. You’re doing an earth kasiṇa.

Josh:
Yes, I am. Yes. And it’s so lovely and wonderful and so great and there seems to be just a really a natural draw to it. Yeah. Go ahead.

Bhante Subhuti:
Oh, good, good, good. I remember I read the Visuddhimagga and while I was at Wat Pah Nanachat I was like making my own earth kasiṇa and I didn’t know what to do and I’m just reading the book and trying to make an earth kasiṇa and I remember I saw like Pa-Auk Sayadaw… you know I read Knowing and Seeing I’m like oh my god there’s actually a teacher who knows all these objects and you know and who can teach and I was like wow this I got to go and I just had this Dhamma urgency and I just like went but… but that’s good if you feel connected with it. It’s good actually. You know, people like search, you know, long and hard for the… for the different, you know, for the exact color of earth actually. But and they might think that it’s like really difficult to find, but actually it’s, you know, the time of the Visuddhimagga, they didn’t have pavement and there was just earth everywhere.

Josh:
Yeah. If you can go to the Ganges River, too. Yeah. Go ahead.

Bhante Subhuti:
Yeah. I have a short video where I’m walking on a path, okay? I’m walking on a dirt road. It’s like that perfect color and I’m like, you know, just like, you know, people struggle to find the right color and this and that and I never really answer like, you know, here it is right there, but I’m just like walking and just filming the road while I’m walking. And so yeah, I hope it works out for you with earth kasiṇa and white kasiṇa. Also usually people like white kasiṇa. Usually usually people who get confused with earth element with breathing they do well with… they do well with the white kasiṇa.

Josh:
Yeah. You know and I think even the people do different things. People like… people like space there’s one person I know likes space. So… there’s always something special that people feel connected with. But let me tell you one thing that in the Pa-Auk system they will… they will let you do ānāpāna for years and years and years and they’ll only change you if you ask.

Bhante Subhuti:
That’s what I had to do. That’s right. With my teacher. Yes. Yeah. I asked Sayadaw once and I said why don’t they change people and he says if they ask we change if they don’t ask we don’t change them this is the rule I remember him saying this to me maybe around 2004 or something like that and I didn’t know that… told me that more than 20 years ago and I still remember because it was such a shock that they would let people do that. Yeah so I guess you know the people listening to this will probably have some background. I’m imagining there’s… there’s some that won’t though. So I think maybe we’ll just… we’ll just how about a brief overview. I mean so from my understanding it’s… it’s a big mixture of Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma but it’s also firmly grounded in suttas too. The… Pa-Auk is a village in Myanmar. Okay. And it’s the name… it’s a concept. It’s the name… it’s the name of the village in Myanmar near Mawlamyine and Pa-Auk Sayadaw… he was… he was practicing in the forest and the previous Pa-Auk Sayadaw… the previous… there was a forest monastery in that outside of the village and it’s called Pa-Auk Forest Monastery and the leader the abbot of that is called Pa-Auk Sayadaw… sayadaw means teacher so he’s the abbot. They might have other monasteries but he was the teacher of that forest monastery. So they call him Pa-Auk Sayadaw because of that. So this monk who is the second one he was ready… he was going to die soon and he decided that Pa-Auk Sayadaw would be the… he asked him to be the abbot of this monastery which was very small but had a lot of land and so it was very small in population but had a lot of land and so he took it over and then a couple of weeks later he died or something like that the second Sayadaw and Pa-Auk became the third Pa-Auk Sayadaw. His real name is Sayadaw U Āciṇṇa. And it means habitual kamma, but we call him Pa-Auk Sayadaw. Pa-Auk Sayadaw Gyi. And now before we just call him Sayadaw. He was like the only… he was just say Sayadaw and like he’s the one. Okay. But after like 20 years you know like people he ordained actually became… you know 20 years they’ve been… became established teachers. So they called them Sayadaws as well and so then they called Sayadaw Sayadaw Gyi big Sayadaw. So that’s what Pa-Auk is. And if we want to just jump into the system and I’ll throw in comparison with kind of Thai forest tradition because Anie and I that’s where we met at Amaravati and we most of has been at practices there and so I’m… but I’m more diplomatic in things like I want… I also want the true real Dhamma to the highest level but I also recognize that there’s approaches that like on the conceptual we’re talking about that are skillful means for meeting people where they’re at currently on their journey, but not at the expense of distortion, too. So walking these lines between like what’s skillful and helpful and what’s the real true Dhamma and but at the same time also not causing divisions and schisms. Good. But you know, I just like to look at commonalities when I can, but also let truth be the guide and then how I go about doing that, right? Like the how is really important to system like the main things are… was the previous Pa-Auk Sayadaw was he practicing kind of the same approach and system as the current Pa-Auk Sayadaw and if we would just… if you just want to go in a brief overview of the samatha vipassanā phases I’ve never heard of that actually yeah.

Bhante Subhuti:
The Abhidhamma is everywhere actually. What gets exported to the West is actually a lot of the Abhidhamma rejection and so… but the Western… Western practitioners of Buddhism it’s very small and the… it’s actually fringe Buddhism with rejecting the Abhidhamma and the commentaries so generally speaking… I don’t know anything about the first and second Pa-Auk Sayadaw. I think that it was a Vinaya place and it was a place to practice. At that time most of the monasteries were… usually when people practiced it was just Mahasi. There was Mahasi, Mogok and there was a couple other methods but the main methods were Mahasi and Mogok. So I think the main thing was that it was a Vinaya place and they had dāna forest and I don’t know anything before that. So Pa-Auk Sayadaw he wrote these like five books. He wrote this like master thesis detailing pretty much the Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha and the Visuddhimagga which are both very practice based and he wanted to see if people could get jhāna. People didn’t believe jhāna was possible before really… before Pa-Auk they didn’t think it was possible they didn’t think it was possible to see mind and matter and so Pa-Auk Sayadaw he after he got his degree as a dhammācariya that means a teacher he passed some exam levels then he decided like can we see this stuff can we practice and actually do what people said and so then he started writing… he wrote these five books which were banned actually by the Saṅgha committee and it was like the Streisand effect and everyone got interested in these books that were banned. It wasn’t really banned. It was in order to make a Buddhist book to publish a Buddhist book in Myanmar need Saṅgha approval… Saṅgha committee approval and he didn’t get that… they didn’t want to approve his book. So he was known enough internationally at that time a little bit and so they printed the books in Taiwan and they brought them over to Myanmar and everyone wanted his books and so that’s how he became famous was from the Streisand effect of them not approving his book and everyone wanted… all the Myanmar people there inside they wanted to get his five volume set I think it’s called Nibbāna… so it means like big Nibbāna. And so basically you really have to be familiar with the Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha and the Visuddhimagga to understand what the Pa-Auk course is. Pa-Auk Sayadaw himself will say that he didn’t make anything up. He basically just took the content of the Visuddhimagga the Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha and sort of systematically layered it in a certain pathway so that you could practice. It starts off with the samatha course. So like we just said you spend years doing ānāpāna or whatever. Usually people who get successful in ānāpāna they… within a couple months few months the… you know nimitta will pop up and then they’ll stabilize their nimitta takes a couple months and then they start going through the jhānas. If they have the pāramī they have the pāramī if they don’t have the pāramī you got to work on it. This is when things get a little… this is when people spend years developing… even lifetimes and you just have to understand how saṃsāra works and just know that you’re developing for your next life or this life maybe you hit it this life. So there’s people… there’s one monk I knew who didn’t get it until 10 years. He didn’t get jhāna until 10 years of practicing. So people can get it at different stages, but most people get it within the first few months. If they’re really practicing, they’re really trying, they’ll get it within the first few months.

Then so they get these jhānas, which is a state of concentration, which is very deep. It’s very one-pointed, one focus. And it’s considered a superhuman attainment. And it’s where there’s extreme concentration on a single object. And it’s a little bit like the concentration is so strong the mind is only working on one single object. And a long time ago we used to have like when the processors were single processors and stuff like that and you had like… your computer got locked up or something like that or if you’re programming actually and you make a loop that doesn’t end. That’s usually what happens when you have buggy software in the 90s. And what happens is it just goes through a loop and it eats up all your processor time and it’s just doing one little thing. And if you don’t have the right logic in there, it just keep repeating. And so the jhāna is a little bit like that. So you’re spending all your processor time on a single object and so it becomes very powerful rather than being scattered. And so there are 40 different samatha objects. They’re objects of calm concentration. And we say so we say that and there’s usually four levels. First jhāna, second jhāna, third jhāna, fourth jhāna. So we… there are 40 different objects. Not all of them can get the jhānas. They can get the like neighborhood concentration, access concentration. Some of those objects like four elements doesn’t get jhāna. So there are 40 different objects and they go through all 40 objects. They try to get them to go through all 40 objects. Usually they can and then they do four elements which is also… it’s not vipassanā it’s actually a samatha object and then they bring them through the rūpa course they try to see like materiality all the materiality in their body at the kalāpa level which is… might want to say like atomic level when I say the atomic level it’s not like atoms in science I’m saying the atomic level in terms of English what atomic level means meaning like the basic building block level. And so they teach the yogis to see the materiality in the body and then to also understand how the six sense doors work and how the material… the materiality the sensitivity works in the eye and the ears and the nose and the tongue and in the body. And so they look at that and then they also look at the mind door as well and they see the different types of materiality in each of the sense bases. And then… so to give you some sense of time frame the samatha course the developing of concentration one-pointed concentration all 40 objects sometimes that can take nine months to a year and mastery where mastery you can do the mastery in whichever jhānas are involved too right so… oh yeah if they do the… the 14 ways I think you know about the 14 ways they used to never do the 14 ways.

Josh:
Just because I know about it doesn’t mean I’m anywhere close to it though.

Bhante Subhuti:
Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. The five jhānic masteries when you know… so yeah you said I was just saying just because I know about that doesn’t mean that I’m anywhere close to that which is… it’s an interesting but we are delayed a little bit. So it takes about like nine months and that’s like usually like… like after you get jhāna that’s after you get the first jhāna.

Josh:
Bhante I think if you want to just… I guess since most people will never… I would venture hopefully not though most people will never get close to the vipassanā stage why don’t you just sum up where we left off the vipassanā and then if you want to say anything about Thai forest tradition.

Bhante Subhuti:
Nāma after they do the rūpa kammaṭṭhāna then where they’re looking at the mind door, I’m sorry, they’re looking at these sense doors in the materiality sense. Then what they do in the nāma is they look at the mental… the mentality the consciousness and how the consciousness goes to the mind… how the consciousness goes to the sense doors and how it goes to the mind and how it does all these different… we could say preparatory consciousness in order for the javana to happen where the javana is where when we feel an emotion that’s sort of what you experience and also the jhāna concentration is also there in the… in what we call the javana process. So you learn the six sense doors and what we call vīthis or mental processes and you learned about… you learn about all the six sense doors and how they interact from a mental point of view and the rūpa you learn about the six sense doors from a physical point of view. Then after you do that then they have another sort of a… sort of like a review where you look at characteristic function manifestation and approximate cause of both nāma and rūpa. Is that correct? Yeah. And so then… so you really basically got to do the courses again and the rūpa course again and the nāma course again so you get better at it and then… and then the next part would be the dependent origination. And so that’s like the sexy stuff where you… where you get to see the past lives and usually you trace like four or five lives. Five lives is usually standard. Sometimes they do more. They do that in the back and then they… they do what you do is you end up doing the rūpa and the nāma course for each life. And so after you… after you do that so you do that for your first life and you connect… you connect the first life and your… your first past life and your present life together. You’re connecting them and so you’re seeing past causes and future results which would be the present life. And then you… you take those two lives and you go back another life. And then you go back another life like that. And so that’s what they do. And then they go into the future. So you have your present life causing future lives. And then you can go into the future. How many ever future lives you have? Potential futures. Yes. Potential future. Yeah. Potential futures. And that can change… future past doesn’t change but the future can change. So then when you finish that and there’s different methods for dependent origination. You start with the fifth method first actually which is like a beginner method and then after that then you start doing the… you start looking at there are 40 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattā… 40 characteristics of impermanent suffering and non-self and they look at that and this takes… this takes a long time to do because then what you do is you do each characteristic and you… and you do paṭiccasamuppāda again looking at each… you do it… you do it for the five khandhas you do it 40 times you do it like 200 times so it takes… it takes a long time these are the toes… these are the toes the 40 toes yeah this is called sammasana ñāṇa stage and so this is what they call vipassanā this is like when you make it to vipassanā. This is… it’s not really considered vipassanā after you do paṭiccasamuppāda and then you get like a 10-day Goenka course and… and it’s called vipassanā. So there are different interpretations of what practice is and maybe this will tie back to the Thai system. So the… the Myanmar system is actually based off of the text especially the Pa-Auk system. It’s based off of the text specifically the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha… Bhikkhu Bodhi translated it’s called the Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma and so this is… it’s based off of the like pariyatti it’s applying the pariyatti it’s not really separate the pariyatti is like a road map and following that and the Pa-Auk of course brings back the faith in the pariyatti before it was a theoretical system that nobody actually practiced and it was… and people lost faith in it. They didn’t think things were possible anymore. And it used to be just an intellectual game almost of hopeful thinking. Maybe it’s possible. Maybe they were able to see this 2,000 years ago, but all hope is lost for the present. And so what they did was they gave up on samatha and they went directly to vipassanā of what they interpreted as vipassanā and this would just be feeling you know if it’s Goenka it’s feeling the sensations in the body so in the Pa-Auk definition how this is… this is paying attention to kāyapasādarūpa it’s like paying attention to one of the 28 rūpas in materiality course this is just rūpa kammaṭṭhāna actually it’s not even… they call it vedanānupassanā but it’s actually really sort of like kāya if possible. So then the Mahasi method is to pay attention to the sense doors and to try to anchor yourself with belly breathing in and out in and out and then to pay attention to the sense doors if they arise and they call that vipassanā and you can do like… you can do like a two-week vipassanā course you can do… you know a three-month the course, whatever. And so this is what they did.

The Thai forest tradition. Actually, they sort of just said, okay, well, monks lived in the forest. Let’s try to live in the forest too, and let’s practice and let’s look at the suttas. And they sort of had pride that they didn’t know what the texts were. They didn’t have this technical knowledge. Ajahn Chah actually was a scholar monk. He knew the Abhidhamma actually. But the other monks, they didn’t… they didn’t know what was possible, what was not possible. And so they had experiences and tradition. Yeah. Thai tradition. So they went into… they didn’t… they didn’t know much about pariyatti as far as I know and I think they prided… they sort of boasted that they didn’t know the pariyatti and they just sort of felt their way and I guess they had some monks who felt like they were enlightened and they told other people and whether they are enlightened or not enlightened it’s not for me to say. But they talk about things that are not in the text that are not possible in the text. Specifically, they talk about this citta thing and maybe it fits into the text and I’m just not aware of it. There are also stories of… there are also stories of like you know it’s in Ajahn Mun’s book that you know when Ajahn Mun became an arahant that the Buddha came to him and you know sort of gave him a nod and all his disciples who are arahants also sort of walked by him gave him a little nod and then previous Buddhas you know lined up with their disciples and they gave him a nod on the night of his arahatship. So this is part of the… this is part of Ajahn Mun’s book autobiography. I think it’s the biography of Ajahn Mun and it talks about this and this would be like not possible but then people say well in the commentaries they actually talk about how all the Buddha relics will come together and the Buddha will give a Dhamma talk and so they say it’s something like that to sort of justify it. So but I don’t… I don’t believe that it’s… it’s difficult for me to believe that that’s really possible. Yeah. And he says he… he said he would… he would spend… he’d spend… he didn’t sleep he would just you know sleep sitting up you know and so anyway that’s part of the tradition of Ajahn Chah they stay up all night and because that’s when you’re going to become enlightened the Mahasi method actually you stare at a clock for… you stay up the whole night like when you get to the advanced stage you stare at a clock I heard about this and I asked the teacher about this and he said yeah, it’s true. And you stare at a clock and then like 30 minutes… you’re up all night. Okay. And 30 minutes might pass like… like it would be like 1 second and you’re like wow 30 minutes passed and so then you… this would be going into Nibbāna or something like that. And so in the Pa-Auk world they would… they would say that this is going into a bhavanga. It’s like a deep sleep state and it’s often confused with Nibbāna and so you should be aware but then what they do is they can project their mind back and they can remember it. So whether it’s Nibbāna or not… there’s controversy… controversy in that and I think Pa-Auk said he might have been a little critical about that and I think that’s why his book wasn’t approved for publication and… use the… the thing is that you need… you need Vinaya in order to get the jhāna if you’re a monk you need to follow the rules and without Pa-Auk Sayadaw pretty much the rules wouldn’t exist right now in Myanmar because all the monasteries that… they’re either Pa-Auk or they… the monks themselves who are independent came from Pa-Auk most of them. So like Mahāvihāra I think that monk is Pa-Auk monk there’s also another monastery called… and they also… he’s Pa-Auk monk and then there’s all the Pa-Auk branches as well. So it’s like 60 branches now. So it’s become an institution. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So there’s one monk, his name is Sayadaw U… he’s, you know, if you got 60 monasteries and one monastery has a big problem, you know, once a year basically. You just got constant problems. I feel really… I feel really sad for him. He’s like always just dealing with a lot of stuff and he’s… he’s handling all the work that Pa-Auk Sayadaw Gyi used to handle and so… so anyway yeah so they have different methods and they have different explanations of what Nibbāna is. So some people say you should blank out it’s impossible to actually know that you’re in Nibbāna because there’s no consciousness so they’re confusing parinibbāna with the description of parinibbāna with the actual attainment of Nibbāna like fruition attainment so it’s phalasamāpatti so they’re confusing that and he’ll answer that say that it’s a wholesome consciousness and wholesome consciousness has sati in there and so you should be aware of what’s going on on the other hand bhavanga also is a wholesome consciousness there would be sati in there as well. So it’s difficult to… if you’re human you have a wholesome consciousness a bhavanga consciousness there would also be sati in there but we you know we experience that when we’re sleeping as well. Yeah. Yeah. That’s… sorry with the delay. Yeah. Yeah. So usually that’s the… those are the different aspects. Usually the Thai monks don’t come to the… now. Now if they go to Sri Lanka they don’t go to Nā Uyana they might go to a place I went to before it’s called… in… they might go there they might go to Meetirigala which is a Mahasi place usually stay clear away from Nā Uyana which is Pa-Auk method place and then or they just do like a trip you know just see the spiritual sites and then usually they when they go to Burma they don’t go to Pa-Auk usually. They don’t mix. They don’t mix well. But there’s actually one monk, I think he’s from Sweden or Austria and he went to… he was very interested in Pa-Auk and he went to Nā Uyana and he’s actually… he’s somewhat of a leader of the foreigners there. I’ve heard he’s supposed to be a really good monk and really good meditator I think. So I can’t remember his name but… so the Thai tradition… Thai tradition has a lot of… a lot of forest monk things which are very respectable and Myanmar is usually more… more based on sort of the meditation center monastery… it’s monastery they do monastery functions they do monastery things they ordain monks and they have kutis and everything is… it’s more sort of like like a farm a farm a meditation farm and… and it’s just growing. They have this forest life, you know, where they’re doing a lot of forest stuff. They even do this tudong thing. They live in the forest. They go to… I think it’s called… and they live in the forest, live in with mosquito nets and… so they do a lot of stuff. It’s… it sounds it sounds really wonderful but it’s… it’s not very nice to live under mosquito net. It takes a certain character to be able to do that. You know, it’s very very difficult. And so the Myanmar is usually a little more comfortable, usually a little more… they give nice and they make a meditation hall that’s really nice and… it’s more suitable for intensive concentration. Thailand, they want to be out in the forest. Sri Lanka is a little bit of both. It’s like a little bit of a mixture of that. It’s got a little bit of Myanmar. It’s got a little bit of Thai mixed into the system. So it’s a little bit in between both of those two systems that I’ve come to appreciate your sense of authenticity and remaining really very clear.

Anie:
I would like you to give us a sort of nutshell of what is from your perspective this authenticity and maintaining right Dhamma on track especially in a time where you know AI is coming into lives and people now can at the touch of a fingertips have access to a number of teachings and teachers who that may not not have been possible before. Double-checking dependent origination online can come up as with a lot of mistakes as well. So that aspect of authenticity is really important in how you present yourself and you present your knowledge. Something if you could say something about how to tell the truth sometimes and to tell it in a way that doesn’t discourage the person to continue exploring what is their own path because everyone enters the Dhamma in different ways. So there’s a sammā vācā. So there’s a right speech aspect. There’s an authenticity aspect. There’s an upāya aspect. Skillful means. And I would like you to just if you could just bring that together and say something from your perspective how how to approach that.

Bhante Subhuti:
We always tell the truth. Always tell the truth. And there’s no reason to lie ever. Okay? If you have nothing good to say, don’t say anything. Actually, I was talking and I just said, okay, I don’t want to say what this says. You know, I stopped myself. Okay. And so I think that that’s really important. But you’re saying like you want to… you want to tell someone you don’t want to discourage them from the path or something like that and you’re wondering how… how you should… how you should speak. You should… you should try to learn how to connect with people. You should try to learn like where you can connect with people. So in the Western world, people connect with loving-kindness. They really like loving-kindness. Who doesn’t… who doesn’t like loving-kindness? So… so you can connect with people with… with promoting you know morality. You can connect with people with promoting like a universal morality. You can connect with people with concentration, loving-kindness and also just doing wholesome things and… and mindfulness also people like that too. So you can connect with people just on that and you can just pick one of them, you know, loving-kindness, you can pick loving-kindness. So if you’re… if you’re doing loving-kindness, you’re going to… you’re going to be following a lot of the precepts anyways. So the question is like with being authentic okay and doing… doing the teaching. So I have a… I have a lot of faith in the commentaries in Abhidhamma and the suttas and the Vinaya you know the whole they call it the Tipiṭaka. I believe in everything and I believe in… in most even the subcommentaries and the what we call the parās. And so these… these handbooks like the Abhidhammattha Saṅgaha. So I really believe in these but sometimes they’re also a little off as well. Like when you get down to the third level and the… the subcommentaries end up and the handbooks end up being written by ancient elders. Okay. But the commentaries themselves were actually… theoretically, they’re according to the legend, they were actually part of the Buddha’s original teaching. They’re written in a different language. It’s… it’s all written in Pāli, but the language is different because it was translated into Sinhala and then… and then what happened was they lost the original Pāli and then they translated it back into Pāli. And so when they translated it back, it’s different quality of language. Like we have old English and new English. It’s… it’s not like that. Actually the… the newer Pāli is actually more complex and… and a lot of people try to read the… the commentaries and it’s… it’s very complex to read. People get frustrated… frustrated and angry that the Pāli is written in this way. It doesn’t necessarily have to be actually they… they have words that are like this long and… and it’s just… it’s just the way it was written. And so people… people get a little upset while they’re trying to figure out what it says and then they decide to reject it from there or they have difficulty believing stuff from there. Nowadays with AI, we’re able to explore without being a scholar. You can explore what the commentaries say. You can explore what the Abhidhamma says and the commentaries and the subcommentaries of the Abhidhamma etc. And you can… you can… you can read all that for yourself. Before you were taking the… you were taking the word of someone who… who read some of the commentaries and tried learning Abhidhamma or translated the Abhidhamma without learning it you know so started from the PTS they called it the valley of dry bones because they were translating… they were translating it just to translate it and it was just like lists to them and… and so they called it the valley of dry bones. And so people read this and then they… they start to… they might only say this like 20 15% of the time, but it sticks out. But the same is true when a lot of translators, they say, oh, I don’t believe this. Even Bhikkhu Bodhi does this. And… not often, but he does is like when he makes a footnote, he’s usually making a footnote about something that’s… that’s a little different than what you would logically expect it to be. That’s what the commentaries are there for, to clarify. And people don’t understand cross-cultural… when you go across… you know, across the whole world like… like as far as you can go actually you… people don’t understand how many cultures you’re crossing and… and when they see a spray gun, you know, for me it’s like what is this kitchen sink thing doing in the toilet and what are we supposed to do with that? And then an Asian person goes to a Western house and he’s like, you have like a toilet brush that you wash dishes with. You know, it’s like a toilet brush to them. And I even showed… I… I remember I… I actually showed this to a… I said, I want to take a picture of this this. He had a brand new one, so it was appropriate to take a picture. Usually they get really ugly looking. And I said, we’re in Myanmar. And I said, I want to… I want to take a picture of this. This. He says, why do you want to take a picture with this? I said, do you know that in America they wash dishes with this thing? And he’s just… that’s just disgusting. And so we have like the commentaries are and the Abhidhamma, you know, we’re talking 2600… 2600 years later, okay? And we’re also talking completely different culture. And so when people like read something like, how can this be? How can this be? And you know like in the PTS translation there’s a footnote like when the Buddha was dying it said that you could fit 60… I think it was 60 devas on the head of a needle and… he said oh this is just ridiculous they can’t… they can’t… they can’t imagine that they haven’t seen Fantastic Voyage it wasn’t made then but… but you know it’s… you know they have these things and… these things stick in people’s mind sticks in my mind because I read that actually in a paper book 20 years more than 20 years ago or something like that. So… so these things stick in people’s mind. They come up with a judgment. And then we have like this thing called EBT where they… where they… they reject the commentaries. They reject the… they reject the commentaries because the… they usually take the Chinese as an authority. The Chinese what survived in Chinese as an authority and the commentaries are different and the Abhidhamma is a little different. And so then what they do is they… they only take the where the Chinese matches the Pāli as an authority. You know then only this is really really true and… but you know Chinese is… you know they’re like the holders of the Mahayana which says you’re allowed to lie if you want to… to bring it full circle. Oh really? And… so they… so anyway in terms of being authentic… I think I think you mean about like the being authentic and true to the teachings and a lot of times I… you know like like we have third precept the third precept is actually you can’t have premarital sex okay and you know the way I tell people this. I’m like, you know, and for killing, you can’t… you can’t do abortions. You can’t even speak in favor of abortions as a monk. And the way I tell people this is… I mean these days I’ve been exposed to this and I understand it better and I understand that abortion is wrong. But I tell people I say look I’m a monk. I have to say this and I let… I let people know in certain ways. One person asked me… one person asked me if being a… a poultry farmer is okay. Okay. And this is her livelihood. And she’s asking me if it’s okay. And I said I can’t say it’s good. And so this is maybe skillful means where you’re always telling the truth. And but you’re still telling the truth but you’re saying it in digestible ways and so that’s… you have to… you have to be skillful in saying things that is right for the person but you know sometimes the Buddha… like there was the dog-duty ascetic there was an ascetic who pretended to be… he acted like a dog and… there’s people like this today in India. There’s even some guy in Japan who has a dog suit. He has like a $20,000 dog suit or something like that. And… you know there’s… and he asked the Buddha, is this really the way? You know what will happen to me? He says, don’t ask me this. He says, you have to tell me. So you can’t ask the Buddha more than three times. And so then he says, okay, I warned you. And he says, he says, at best your next life you’ll be a dog. He says, but if you’re telling other people, if you believe that this is the way to salvation and you’re telling other people to do this as well, you’ll go into the worst of hells. And so sometimes the Buddha, he speaks what is always… he always speaks what is beneficial. He always speaks at the right time. He always speaks… he always speaks the truth but it’s not always pleasant. Usually it’s pleasant. Sometimes it’s a bitter pill to swallow. He tells… he tells it like it is but most of the time everything is just wonderful that the Buddha says. Yeah.

Anie:
So this is interesting because it links up to a sort of corollary question I had on that and which is a question I like to ask and I have asked to several senior ājān or senior mahāthera and then I’m always getting similar… similar answers but I really would like to put it to you what are highlights quality for a teacher someone who is in a position who can teach the Dhamma, share the Dhamma and put it because it’s also not… but not not being proselyte so it has to be requested but again with computers and AI and everything everything is available at the fingertips in ancient times or earlier days people were taking an airplane and going to Asia to look for teachers so what are highlights… ancient times they… they would walk for days to visit a… right right ancient times what ancient sometimes last century meant as well like ancient but let’s say that what are the highlight qualities for a teacher like how it’s a question that I’ve heard being asked as well but it’s also a question that I have at heart because how do you actually choose to have a teacher and follow and there are some highlights so there is on one part it could be intuition in one… in fact, it could be just that there is a connection between what you’re looking for and what the teacher is having. But there are also some aspect of teachers that need to be there especially if the teacher is a monastic. So you know reference to a lineage or I would like you to speak about it otherwise I start talking about this and it’s a completely different answer. So highlights of teachers and another corollary about that is are there any female teachers that have ever inspired you or can you point to females in the Saṅgha as part of the four-fold Saṅgha where are the female… where are the women in there and that would be my final question.

Bhante Subhuti:
So in terms of a… of a teacher, whether it’s a lay person or it’s a monastic, I think in your context, you’re asking about monastics. You’d feel that this teacher has something to offer you that you’re looking for at the very minimum. So even if you just want to go to chanting, if the monk knows how to chant, then… then this teacher can be a teacher for you and can help you with developing the wholesome. It depends on… on what you’re… what you’re looking for. You have to respect the teacher in order to learn from the teacher. And this actually is one of the things that’s a problem with… with women who look for a teacher. So a lot of times the women don’t respect women teachers. There are… there are women teachers though, but… we’ll get into that later. So there’s… if you’re a monastic and you’re looking for a monastic teacher you… you would want to make sure that they follow the monastic rules. So we have sīla, samādhi and paññā right. So it would be very important to have a teacher who follows the basic first step of sīla and… so this would… this would be good and they… they know the rules so they can teach you if you’re a monastic and you want to… and you want to know the rules you should… you yourself should be eager to follow the rules. And so you’d want another monk who… who at least has that and he has the knowledge in the rules. So he can teach you or she can teach you the rules and lives by the rules, walks the practice. So that’s… that’s very important. Teachers make mistakes though. But it depends how often what they do, how they purify those mistakes, if they can purify those mistakes. So, usually you want to… if you’re a monk, I like… I tell people like where to ordain. I have an article called “Where to Ordain.” I think both of you have probably read that and I don’t even bother with… with places that don’t follow the rules because you can ordain anywhere. You can just pick any monastery and ordain. So, and they’re more common. It’s… it’s very rare to find a place that follows the… generally follows the Vinaya and but that’s… that’s if you’re looking for a place to ordain and then… then after that you know you do… you want pariyatti place do you want to learn about pariyatti and do you want to… do you want to learn about meditation and you know you… I… I guide people to try to figure out what their philosophy is because usually when they’re at the stage where they want to ordain their… their philosophy is already set like concrete and it’s very difficult to change them. And so my goal of that was to… to sort of like recognize that I couldn’t change them and to guide people in a place that could fit. And the big thing is called philosophy matching. So you want to ordain at a place that follows the Vinaya and you want to follow the place that… that matches your philosophy. Now the question is are you skillful enough to know what’s good for you? So a little kid would be like you know like he’d be like chocolate cake is what I should be eating and I’m going to eat chocolate cake because he’s a little kid. He doesn’t know what’s… what’s really good for him. Okay. And so you need… you need a parent say no you can’t have that and this would be a good teacher but he might not match the philosophy of his parents about chocolate cake and how much he can have. So in terms of what I think is correct is we should follow the… you know we have the Tipiṭaka there’s three baskets we should follow all baskets and then we should also follow the commentaries we should find teachers who develop the practice the meditation system based on that… that fits in that and it’s not just like one little thing and it says that’s the whole practice. I… you know, you can… you can do that. You can take one of the… you can… you can take a small part of the teachings and just make it your specialty. But… but you should understand that about how everything is connected, how… how everything sort of works together in terms of all the texts, the Pāli texts that we have. And you should… you should follow… follow that, have faith in that and see if they’re practicing that as well. But you might want to go to the pariyatti realm and a long time ago the study monks they didn’t follow the Vinaya and the practice monks they… they followed the Vinaya because in terms of the morality because you need sīla samādhi paññā… need… need morality to get concentration to get wisdom Nibbāna right so but wisdom comes before Nibbāna and so normally it was like that but actually nowadays there are places where you can learn the text and follow the rules at the same time. It used to not exist before. We would just say, oh, he’s a pariyatti monk. We still say that he’s pariyatti. I go to university. I… I encounter, you know, my professors, they’re… they’re… they’re you know, they’re… they’re pariyatti monks. There’s no other way to explain that. And I can learn from them. And I’m very respectful. I bow down to them and you know I’m like I recognize they’re more senior to me and I’ll… I’ll bow down to them and give them the respect. You have to respect the person at least and you have to understand that this person can give me something that I’m… I’m seeking and that it’s the correct Dhamma as well. You want to definitely see… you want to judge am I… am I following the correct Dhamma? That’s… that’s really important. And… you should see if it matches. So… so yeah we have… we have 89 cittas you know but where is this citta in the Thai tradition? So then they… they start saying well this the citta means something else or something it can match in the… some people will say it matches in the book and some people say it’s not in the book or something like that. So you… you have to decide what is… what is the… the real Dhamma for… for me the saddhamma. We say the saddhamma is the true Dhamma is… is what’s in the Pāli. So some people say well… well this is commentarial this is Abhidhamma. This is not real. I only follow the suttas. The suttas are very wide and you can… you can… it… you… you can… you can make your own path within the suttas and you also have to believe that the commentaries comes from there. You have to believe that the Abhidhamma comes from there. And so the Buddha even said that you know this is what the Buddha said. This is what the Buddha did not say. And so this is how we get the authentic teachings. We get the authentic teachers and… and so you… you look and see if you can get those authentic teachings and you always tell the truth and you… you try to be pleasant and try to avoid conflict, try to avoid things that would push people away and… and the best thing to do is just talk about baby Dhamma and… and talk about loving-kindness and try to stay away from that. Actually, my last… my last online baby Dhamma course was quite deep. So, I thought I’d just talk about like, you know, you… you see colors and you have an eye and you hear sounds and you have an ear. Then I started talking about and I have to because it’s just… I feel like I have to. And so then it became very complicated. You know, I was talking about mind moments and… and how the word hello sounds, you know, on a mind moment level. And… but… but yeah, we… we should just talk about loving-kindness and we can connect with people. In terms of female… teachers, like I said, the… the females usually don’t respect the female teachers and… and so they’re at a… at a… female teachers are at a disadvantage. It’s very difficult for… for female… like there’s… there’s more… there’s a lot of women who finish the course and very few of them are able to teach successfully. So… so the big thing is that the… and the… and the women need a lot of attention. There’s a lot more yogis also and I was always like well why don’t we just have them teach themselves and they’re like it doesn’t work and they… they… they don’t… it’s a… it’s a matter of the women not respecting… the monks can… we’re fine we… we’ll learn from our own… we’ll learn from our own but the… but the women actually choose not to respect the woman and when they don’t respect they can’t learn so there are… there… there are teachers is like Nina van Gorkom and Sujin. They… they are lay women teachers… with the especially with the Abhidhamma. I’m not really sure about other… other teachers. I don’t really follow them in order to… to judge. There’s different women who have some success with… with connecting with people like because they’re famous, but I don’t know what they… what they do. Yeah. So, because I… I have my teachers and I’ve learned from best. So, in terms of teacher, that’s… that’s all I can say in terms of the being authentic and not pushing people away.

Josh:
What advice would you give to lay people? We spent a little time talking about… maybe some monastic advice and those considering to ordain, but I guess in general some just general advice to… to lay people and study and practice and maybe just life in general, too.

Bhante Subhuti:
For lay people, it’s a lot wider in terms of what you can get from monks in terms of looking for a teacher. It’s very wide. And… because they… they have… you’re not looking to follow the monastic rules, you’re looking to get the knowledge. In terms of advice I can give for… for lay people in terms of the practice, in terms of their learning, in terms of what they’re doing, the main thing is to try to keep a wholesome mind. Try to pay attention to the mind and understand when it’s wholesome, when it’s unwholesome. Practice loving-kindness. It’s very important and to… to actually try to practice loving-kindness… in the Pa-Auk level. One of the problems with Pa-Auk is… is you don’t try anything until you get into the order. You know, it’s like a staircase actually. And but you can… like loving-kindness is one of the last things they teach in the samatha world. And so most people never even learn about loving-kindness, but you can practice loving-kindness. And… and one of the… one of the… one of the qualities or… or benefits is that it’s easy to do. It’s easy to concentrate the mind. It’s something very wonderful. And I hope that people can practice loving-kindness. If all you have is five minutes, okay, yeah, do it every day. Five minutes. It’s good. But you can also try to develop it and also to have loving-kindness… sort of a mindfulness on… on that and also developing these beautiful mental factors to have awareness of that and to see when you’re… when you have these mental qualities these mental ingredients that are beautiful when they’re not beautiful because then you’ll be in the wholesome not being in the wholesome and so you… you’ll understand better and also just by paying attention to those qualities of what is beautiful and what is not beautiful you’ll know on a practical level that the Abhidhamma is correct and… and then this will help you understand that the teachings are definitely… are definitely correct and that we should apply them to apply the teachings and just to apply something very… to try to take a very simple part of the Buddhist teachings that you’re able to do and try to incorporate that… incorporate that in your life because the teachings are very wide and you get really confused and you can just keep reading new… new suttas and… and they do end but it’s almost like they never end. Yeah. So you can always… you can just keep reading a new sutta every day and… and pretty much never get the end. And by the time you go to the end, you forgot the ones you read in the three… three years ago because three year cycle or something like that. So yeah. So if you can take like a small part of the teaching that can… can you’re able to do it simple and it helps you have a wholesome mind helps you have a beautiful mind helps you be more loving-kindness have more loving-kindness and but being beautiful and wholesome this is what is very important of course if you’re doing that then you’re following the precepts five precepts this is very important to follow the five precepts as like a minimum. You know, I say have a wholesome mind. Try to have a beautiful mind, but you also want to definitely focus on the five precepts. And… this is for those who don’t know, it’s said not to kill, not to steal, not to engage in sexual misconduct, not to tell lies, any type of lie, and to completely stay away from any type of intoxicating substance. So this is just basic common sense stuff. And so you have the… the base of the sīla and then you have the… you have the… the element of practice keeping the mind beautiful loving-kindness keeping the mind if the mind is beautiful you have the mind in the wholesome states the wholesome having a wholesome mind then your… then your actions will be wholesome and your speech will be wholesome and your mind will be wholesome and so that’s a very simple baby… baby Dhamma message and that’s… that’s what I try to… I try to push. Yeah. So I hope that this can… well this can help.

Josh:
Well sādhu sādhu sādhu thank you Bhante. Yes and that’s will be beautiful grounds for growing wisdom as well which will come overcome everything right and… and take us to the final goal someday if we stay on… stay on the true path. So, thank you so much for joining and… thanks Anie for… for suggesting this and… and sharing. And I’ll just throw it back to Anie to… to… to say anything she wants to do before we leave here.

Anie:
I appreciate your time, your patience, your availability to do this at a late time in the evening. You’re monastic. That’s why your schedule is very busy. Sometimes it is a thought that monastic just don’t just go and sit and do nothing but actually super busy and I know you’re very busy. So I appreciate your time, your patience, your availability and your kindness in sharing more than baby Dhamma. So and… thank you so much again sādhu.

Bhante Subhuti:
Okay. Yes. Yes.

Josh:
All right. And with that…

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

In this forty-fourth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion this time with Spiritual Friendship or Kalyāṇa-mitta basically meaning “friend of moral beauty” or a “companion on the path of goodness.” What qualifies as this? What are pseudopartners? What is our lived experience with this? Why is this important? How does this relate to meditation?

[Episode note: Even though Wendy has expressed past challenges in UK I’ve found my time there overall of great fruit and great benefit inside and outside the Dhamma and I stay in touch with numerous friends and acquaintances with zero enemies]

According to the Mitta Sutta, a friend worth associating with is someone who:

Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, “This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie “Don’t say that, Ananda. Don’t say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life…https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.002.than.html

“Householder’s son, you should recognize these four good-hearted friends: the helper, the friend in good times and bad, the counselor, and the one who’s sympathetic.

You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s a helper on four grounds. They guard you when you’re negligent. They guard your property when you’re negligent. They keep you safe in times of danger. When something needs doing, they provide you with twice the money you need. You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s a helper on these four grounds.

You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s the same in good times and bad on four grounds. They tell you secrets. They keep your secrets. They don’t abandon you in times of trouble. They’d even give their life for your welfare. You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s the same in good times and bad on these four grounds.

You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s a counselor on four grounds. They keep you from doing bad. They support you in doing good. They teach you what you do not know. They explain the path to heaven. You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s a counselor on these four grounds.

You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s sympathetic on four grounds. They don’t delight in your misfortune. They delight in your good fortune. They keep others from criticizing you. They encourage praise of you. You can recognize a good-hearted friend who’s sympathetic on these four grounds.”

The Buddha spoke this matter. Then the Holy One, the Teacher, went on to say:

“A friend who’s a helper, one the same in both pleasure and pain, a friend of good counsel, and one of sympathy;

an astute person understands these four friends for what they are and carefully looks after them, like a mother the child at her breast.

The astute and virtuous shine like a burning flame. They pick up riches as bees roaming round pick up pollen.

And their riches proceed to grow, like a termite mound piling up. In gathering wealth like this, a householder does enough for their family.

And they’d hold on to friends by dividing their wealth in four. One portion is to enjoy. Two parts invest in work. And the fourth should be kept for times of trouble.”

Past posts relating to Spiritual Friendship:

*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*

Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.

For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.

Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”

Past chats with Wendy:

Transcript via YouTube (with timestamps removed and cleanups here and there too I suppose via ai or as ai puts it: “the cleaned-up transcript with minor typos, clear misspellings, and obvious miscontextualizations corrected while preserving the original wording and flow”):

Josh: Hey, wholeness. Welcome. This is Josh, Integrating Presence, and joined once again by the intrepid Wendy Nash. Wendy, what’s happening?

Wendy: I’m here on Kabi Kabi country in Queensland, in Caboolture. It’s quite cold. Straight after this, I have to dash out, so I’m a little bit flimsy, but I’m hoping I’m going to keep warm enough [laughter] during our discussion.

Josh: We’ll make it hot and exciting. [laughter] Well, we’ll see. But so tell me about the weather in Australia in the winter. It’s not that cold there for that long, is it? But when it is, nobody’s really prepared for it, and it comes as a shock all the time, or no? How does it work?

Wendy: So Australia is a really big place, so people misunderstand how huge it is. Just to give you a bit of an idea, it’s the same size as the US mainland. If you take off Alaska, then that’s basically the same size as Australia. So to say, “What’s the weather in Australia?” is like saying, “What’s the weather like in the US?” It just depends on where you are.

Where I am is kind of maybe like Miami, where it’s very humid. It’s about maybe 2,000 kilometers south of the Tropic of Capricorn. And so actually the range of temperatures is not particularly variable here. We’re just outside Brisbane [snorts], but it is very humid.

So when it’s really—there’s something called the wet bulb effect, which is that once the relative humidity gets up to like 95 or 100%, you actually can’t perspire anymore. And then if the temperature gets to 35 degrees Celsius, which I don’t know what that is in hot [laughter]—then you actually can’t perspire, and this is sort of an increasing health problem, particularly with all the heat. So you’ll have seen, obviously in Europe and North America, all these heatwaves. So that’s what happens. Even if you’re in front of a fan, it doesn’t make any difference. Trust me, I know because [laughter] I’ve tried it.

Josh: You’ve tried it. What’s it called? A wet bulb effect? Bulb, B-U-L-B. Wet light bulb? Light bulb?

Wendy: Wet bulb effect.

Josh: Okay. Interesting. I haven’t heard of that.

Wendy: Okay.

Josh: Hey, so yeah. Well, [sighs and gasps] it’s hot a lot of places, but at least you have some coldness there, right? Or some coolness now. So, that’s nice, [gasps] I guess. But anyway, okay, we’ll jump right in here, right? It’s time to start. I’ll just read my little blurb here.

In this 44th installment of the ongoing life series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion. This time with spiritual friendship, or kalyāṇa-mittatā—it’s a Pali word for what’s translated as spiritual friendship, basically meaning a friend of moral beauty or a companion on the path of goodness. What qualifies as this? What are pseudo-partners? What is our lived experience with this? Why is this important? How does this relate to meditation? This and more live. So join us if you’re not already here, somehow get here and listen, or listen on the replay, which you may be doing, too.

So yeah, spiritual friendship, and this struck me as particularly important because I just came off of two retreats, and everybody [clears throat] should do more retreats. I love retreats and highly suggest them a lot. And at the same time, when we’re doing silent meditation retreats, it does limit our ability to connect as spiritual friends, which—we need this time alone, but then I think we also need this dynamic of spiritual friendship. What say you, Wendy?

You’re not saying anything. You’re on silent retreat.

Wendy: No, I’m not. I was just going, “Can I quickly get this email out?” [laughter] which I need to send.

Josh: Oh, please go ahead. I could talk forever. Go for it. No, seriously. Talk about spiritual friendship.

Wendy: So this is bad behavior on my part, but I’m like madly trying to dash and get this thing out…

Josh: And we can wrap up [laughter] early today, too. You’ve got extra busy stuff, and it’s not like we’re on the clock getting paid or anything. So yeah, there’s no seriousness here that if we don’t need to be, you know what I mean? Like, you’re more than welcome to—you could turn off your camera and I could just talk and you can listen. But seriously, yeah.

Wendy: But no, let’s not do that. So what is a good friend? You know, like a kalyāṇa-mitta. What is that? Huh, [clears throat] I’ve got some guidelines here.

Josh: I’m sure you do.

Wendy: I think it takes many forms. I was at a community building workshop yesterday and it was talking about social capital, and there’s two types of social capital. One is bonding social capital and one is linking social capital. Bonding social capital is the benefit that you gain from being with your friends, with being with people who are alike. The other one is making connections with people you are not like, but still feeling some sort of connection. You wouldn’t maybe have a big discussion with them because it might go really badly [gasps], but nonetheless, you sort of ride your bike or walk or wherever, and you see them and you go, “Hi,” or whatever.

So for good well-being, you need both. You can be poor, you can have any other stuff [clears throat] going on in your life, but if you actually don’t have those two aspects of social capital in your life, you actually don’t have good well-being. This is what he was saying. And you look around at the world today and you go, “Yeah, that’s it.”

So linking back to what is a kalyāṇa-mitta, I think it is both of those. In a way, with the bonding social capital, I think we do need people who support us in our practice. We do need people to have chats with about the dharma, about meditation, to know if we’re on the right track, how we’re going, and just to feel connected to somebody else in this space. And I think also we need to be able to practice with people who are really different, because that’s where the edge is—people who are really different. So that’s what I would say about a kalyāṇa-mitta: one is a place to practice, and one is a place to chat. What do you think?

Josh: Yeah, this is pretty much—I mean, in the traditional Theravāda stuff, at least for monastics, if I’m getting this right, you have the spiritual friend, you have your companions on the path, and you want to associate with wise people basically, and that goes beyond just people in the holy life as well, I would say. And you have your teachers and friends, like you just said, to keep you supported and see if you’re on the right track.

And then, the monastic community—the Buddha, I think, deliberately arranged it this way where they can’t store up food. They can’t touch and handle food themselves, so they’re entirely dependent on laypeople. And so this means traditionally, I guess, going on alms rounds, and they’re forced in a sense—I don’t know, maybe “forced” is too strong a word—but it’s structured so there’ll be interaction with those outside their normal circles, right? Usually.

And so this is where—I agree with what you’re saying, and I couldn’t help but just think, “Oh my gosh, social capital, it’s like a human asset, you’re treating people like…” I don’t know, I’m pushing a little bit far here, but the language is really interesting. The sentiment is what matters—what the meaning is, right? The phrase just makes me roll my eyes a little bit.

But yes, absolutely. And I would say the second category, Wendy, is unavoidable. We’re not going to have to go out of our way too much unless we’re a hermit, and some of us are, especially some people who are deeply introspective and meditative—they don’t go out a lot, they don’t interact. There’s so much loneliness and longing for belonging. But eventually, whether you buy things at a store or step outside your house and have a random encounter, it’s almost entirely unavoidable, unless you live in a cave for three years or whatever, you’re still going to have to do this.

But yeah, some of us need more of that and some of the other. But the importance here too is the wise friends, because that’s the support system, that’s the bonding, and then the reinforcement and strength when it’s good to then go out and interact with the world in this other category you’re talking about.

Wendy: [snorts] Yeah. So let me just—there’s one thing here. In Tibetan Buddhism—I can’t remember his name, he’s one of these cranky old people who just traipses about the countryside with very clear capacities, very skilled—he goes to this monastery and hears about this monk who’s in his own house, who never goes out or anything like that and is sponsored by the local community. I think I might be conflating a couple of stories.

This very famous Rinpoche comes up to him and says, “What are you studying?” And he says, “Oh, I’m studying patience, refining my practice.” And this maverick, Lharampa-kind of guy turns around and [laughter] slaps him on the back and goes, “Well, we’ve got them hoodwinked good and proper, haven’t we?” And the monk just gets livid. And the Rinpoche goes, “There you go, that’s what you’ve got to be working with.”

So, yeah. I put that in as a kind of—that in a way is the role of the kalyāṇa-mitta. I guess that’s a teacher role, but you don’t want to be abusive in that role by any stretch, because people can be very weird in that space, but I think that kind of wisdom is really good.

Josh: Yes, I’ve talked about this with a few people too, and I don’t know if this fits in the crazy wisdom tradition, but yeah, it’s great. I love these teachings. However, I would say that it’s high risk, high reward, right? The success rate is best in a narrower case. The practitioner has to be ready for it, not take it the wrong way, and has to be firm and certain, because there are really high levels of potential abuse. You can’t just go teaching in that manner to everyone. In some of the Zen teachings I’ve heard about, it would completely traumatize some people, but for other people, it’s the breakthrough they need. It’s a skillful means. That’s how I look at it.

Wendy: Exactly. I mean, I just think that’s a fun story, too. I wouldn’t put that in the crazy wisdom, abusive category, because he’s really just highlighting—he’s triggering this person’s sense of impatience and going, “Well, how enlightened are you? You think you’re so far ahead.” So I think that is just such a great example.

Josh: Yeah, it reminds me of a Zen story, but I don’t feel confident enough to retell it and not screw it up. But yeah, there’s so many around this where I think we get tested when we need it, right? A lot of times we’ll have—and I’ve seen it in parents, too; I’m not a parent, but their kids are a great mirror to show them their own stuff and what they need to work on. It becomes pretty obvious about certain things.

And the thing I wanted to read here—this is the other end of this stick here, too. I think this one little paragraph is kind of the classic thing that we hear about spiritual friendship. I’m just going to read a little selection here:

Venerable Ānanda, who was the Buddha’s cousin and attendant, said to the Blessed One, “This is half of the holy life, Lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie.”

And then the Buddha said, “Don’t say that, Ānanda, don’t say that! Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life.”

You know, when I first heard that teaching years and years ago, I was like, “Really?” The Buddha was known to teach people according to their needs and means. So I wonder if that factors in here with Ānanda, who was known for always being by the Buddha’s side, memorizing everything, being his close personal attendant. I wonder how much time he had to interact with so many other people in a friendly manner.

I don’t know, but no matter what, this is a huge emphasis, and to let that really sink in—what about meditation? What about ethics? What about wisdom? Well, I think spiritual friendship easily encompasses all three of those when we’re doing it right. What do you think, Wendy?

Wendy: [clears throat] You know, I’ve never heard that said about Ānanda—that he gave the teaching at the right time and right place because he was an attendant. I’ve only ever heard it as a general statement: “It is the whole of the life.”

Josh: That was my extra commentary—that the Buddha taught those at their level and what they needed. But anyway, Ānanda underestimated it, and the Buddha said it was actually more important than he thought it was.

Wendy: Yeah, I think that is actually really relevant today. Because the thing is, it’s easy to think you’re further along the path when you don’t bump into people on the road, when you’re not looking at a person and going, “Oh, that was a bit uncomfortable, that wasn’t so gracious, I regret saying this.” All that sort of stuff.

So I think actually that statement is truer today than at any time in the past. In the past, people were living on top of each other a little bit more, but today we have this hyper-individualist society. We don’t meet in groups. We are afraid of conflict. We are afraid of speaking up, disappointing people, and hurting people, so we don’t say anything. We don’t have any connection, and then we wonder why we’re all so desperately lonely.

Josh: Totally. And we’ve got social distancing remnant that’s still left over somewhat from the lockdowns. And we have texting and social media. This is a new way of interacting socially, but how does that work with the flesh-and-blood connection? So there are these other interesting dynamics of friendship and interaction. You’re involved with not only Buddhism but other social groups, is that correct? And some of those are spiritual?

Wendy: I don’t know about physical life so much, but I talk to people from all walks of life. Even in Buddhist circles, you meet people from all different kinds of backgrounds who are there out of curiosity or staying at the free monastery.

Josh: In the past, I moved in different spiritual circles, New Age-type thingies, and found the helpfulness of those and the distortion of those as well. As far as being socially interactive in certain social groups these days, I wouldn’t say that. I will get together with my friends while I’m here—old college buddies, new ones I’ve met. But anyway, sorry, I’m rambling on again. Where were you going with this?

Wendy: Whereabouts are you based at the moment?

Josh: I’m in the States. I’m in Missouri. Back to Denmark in early September.

Wendy: Okay, so you obviously move around, you spend time in different monasteries and different countries, your friends change, and the cultural mores of those times change. How do you experience kalyāṇa-mittatā in the context of those diverse cultures?

Josh: There’s a certain social messaging application that I use quite a bit to stay in touch with people I’ve met overseas. And then when you get a chance to see them again, I’ll usually say, “Okay, I’m going to be at this place, if you’re available, let’s meet up and hang out.” So that’s how I keep up with that. In a way, a lot of that’s dependent on certain one-time situations and then staying in contact online. It’s a different dynamic—it’s allowed for more expansion, but also a different type of contraction.

Wendy: But you do live in monasteries for, say, two or three months, and you go on retreats…

Josh: Even less than that, too—like the winter retreat at Chithurst in England, or staying at Amaravati. I was in South Korea for a couple of months at a monastery, too. I’m going to be going on another one in October for a month in Indonesia. So that’s pretty cool.

Wendy: In those different spaces, in those different cultures, do you ever bump into the same people at different places?

Josh: Oh, yeah.

Wendy: And then what’s the experience of the actual friendship side of it? Because that’s what we’re talking about—how to, you know, is there friendship in that sort of space, and what does that look like?

Josh: The context and the container are really important, I feel. How we interact with each other and other people is significantly dependent on the space, the container, the time, and what’s appropriate. Even from monastery to monastery, how I interact with someone in one monastery might be different because it’s more surface level and there are so many more people involved, versus doing a winter retreat at a different monastery where it’s a really tight-knit community.

Wendy: I sort of wanted to explore—we’re talking about kalyāṇa-mitta / kalyāṇa-mittatā in this context. I’m very curious about different cultures and how they change the way we understand friendship. I’ve lived in England for quite a bit of my life, and even in spiritual communities, I couldn’t get off this question of “What’s the weather?” and “What will people think?” I just couldn’t form any connections with the spiritual communities, which really shocked me. I found them all quite aloof and not particularly warm. I was curious to see—you may have had a very different experience.

Josh: I can tell you how I dealt with it in England at the monastery: I just became the loud, weird, unapologetic American guy. I didn’t really bother to do the social niceties. People just knew that I was a little bit more irreverent. What was nice is that this Ajahn Chah tradition is known for being an unorthodox method sometimes—very earthy, grounded, and testing in a sense, but with very brilliant ways. I’m not comparing myself to Ajahn Chah, because I have a long way to go to be that wise and skillful in interactions.

I will say, though, that at some point I would ignore a lot of that, but then I’d be ignored a lot too, and I’d be okay with that. Then there’d be a few people there that I would really connect with who didn’t play those games a lot, and I just spent more time interacting with them.

There was a huge international community in some of these, too, so that whole English thing didn’t apply as much. For example, friends from Sri Lanka—not to generalize or stereotype, but the faith and fervor around being inspired by the Buddha as a historical figure, the teachings, and the usefulness of the teachings… I didn’t really have a reference point for how reverent and faithful that is, and it inspired me in a way.

And then in America—I say this jokingly—you have a couple of people from Iran and Israel in the same space, and they got along great. I loved who they were as individuals, so it’s just so ridiculous to me that people want to harm each other in the world.

And people from Europe, even from Germany, have a whole different way of seeing the world than the English do. You have to be okay with being weird, standing out, and not fitting in, but also knowing your place and knowing the limits of that—when to exercise that more and when to dial it back. My life got so much better when I realized that what other people think about me is none of my business.

Wendy: Having spent time in England, and knowing a lot of English people in Australia—a former boss realized after being here, “What will people think?” Well, you actually don’t know unless you ask them, but it’s a huge thing in England.

In terms of friendship, what does spiritual friendship look like in different cultures? Here in Australia, I go to a day-long event once a month in Brisbane, but I’m on the outskirts, so I can’t go to any of the classes during the week, and I can’t [clears throat] form friendships there at all. It’s hard.

When I was in Sydney a long time ago, when I first started meditating, it was a particular tradition that really focused on building the community, and the edges to learn on were with the other people in the congregation. I use the word “congregation” because there was a teacher who said, “I don’t know why you call it a sangha. Sangha is the monastics, the people in robes. What you’re talking about is a congregation, that’s different.” I prefer to use the word “congregation” because we’ve taken this Christian church experience and applied it.

Josh: The technical term is the “four-fold assembly.” You have the monastic males, monastic females, and then the laypersons, male and female.

I just talked to my buddy in England that I met at monasteries, and we talked about practice today. I was wondering—a lot of times, if there seemed to be a connection, I’d just exchange numbers, and then later on, maybe once a year, I’ll blast through with almost the same message to see who takes the bait or is interested. A lot of them won’t respond; it was just a nicety, and that’s totally cool. But with others, there are different levels of engagement.

I have to put the onus on me: if I want spiritual friendship, I’m going to have to put forth the effort. If it’s not reciprocated, that’s okay, just let it fall away. I love the richness of different traditions and cultures because they all have something else to add, and they act as different types of mirrors and angles.

Since we’re trying to find out what it looks like, this is called the Mitta Sutta, and it has seven points. A friend worth associating with is someone who:

These are some summations of this sutta. I think these are pretty good traits. What do you think, Wendy?

Wendy: If I was around somebody who treated me [laughter] like that, I’m like, “Yeah, I’m out.” This is a really unpleasant situation. To me, it depends on the frequency of bad behavior. I quite like John Gottman’s stuff from the Gottman Institute—that you have to have 19 positive interactions before you have a negative one [laughter] in order for a relationship to be good. If someone was 19 times really lovely, appreciative, and had a good laugh, and then on the 20th time said, “Oh man, I’m having a really bad time,” then all fair and good. But once you get below that ratio, actually it’s not a good relationship.

Josh: So you’re saying if it’s constant crisis all the time, it’s not worth doing. Yeah, this applies to someone you’ve hung around or known for a long time and still want to be with, not when you’re trying to gain new friends. This isn’t a starting point for friendship; this is what strengthens it and acts as a benchmark. It’s kind of a rarity in the world. It’s interesting to see how well I stack up and fulfill these benchmarks, and when they make sense to do and when not.

Wendy: I was thinking about a friend of mine. We were at school together—ordinary friendship, not spiritual. She has somebody in her life who is like fictive kin, because we all had English parents, so we didn’t have cousins or extended family. This person was essentially her cousin, and we were all at school together. My friend just said, “You know what? I actually just don’t think she’s kind, she’s not somebody I want to hang out with.” We’re now coming up to 60—I’ll be 60 next month—so this is somebody she has known her whole life. She suddenly looked at this person who she always thought was caring and kind, and went, “Ah, she’s actually not a very nice person.” I said, “Be careful about giving away that friendship, because that’s somebody you’ve known a really long time.” But she decided, “No, this is not where I want to go.”

So where is the dealbreaker? There’s a point sometimes in a relationship where you add things up and go, “Actually, this person is not who they seem.”

Josh: Those are really good points. When I first started getting on the path, gradually a lot of my old friends—probably 90%—fell away. As I changed, grew, and evolved, I made new friends, but there was a really long period where I was alone and felt like I couldn’t relate to anybody, and nobody could relate to me. In hindsight, that’s very common on the spiritual path during transitions of waking up.

These guidelines are helpful in regular friendships, too. Who wants to never get close to anyone by not telling them any secrets when it’s appropriate to do so? That’s a sign of depth. And keeping secrets is a big dealbreaker in regular friendships.

Wendy: One of the things that can make a difference in a friendship is depth. Some people aren’t deep, and that’s okay. And some people aren’t shallow. There can be a mismatch.

I don’t actually know what makes somebody deep. I was talking about depth with a former colleague who’s Chinese, and I asked, “What’s the word in that context for deep?” And she said, “It’s the same: deep.” I thought that was very interesting. There must be some neurological thing about what is deep and what is shallow. Why do we say it’s deep? Is it because it rolls up from the bottom of the mind?

Josh: That’s a really good question. “Deep” is almost like a trigger word. It goes into things that aren’t on the surface—things that everybody can connect to easily. All of a sudden, something hits us and reminds us of something significant that happened and how we felt.

These guidelines—giving what’s hard to give, doing what’s hard to do, enduring hard things—are the peak. On a surface level, that just means being kind and generous, spending extra effort, and not being a fair-weather friend.

Wendy: I’m probably a fair-weather friend! [laughter] I like to have a conversation with somebody, enjoy that person, and then I feel like the friendship has run its course. I’m actually hurt very quickly, which is not such a great part of my personality. If somebody says or does something, I can frequently feel quite hurt, and then that’s not helpful for other people and not helpful for me.

Josh: This has been a big topic on our show. If we’re practicing Buddhists, it’s about non-harming. When you feel hurt, it’s painful enough, and then the tendency is to lash out, blame someone else, or blame yourself. It feels like a double bind after double bind, and it snowballs. It’s a core thing—harm and hurt.

Wendy: You have to take responsibility for your own feelings of feeling hurt. For me, the dharma is always: I have to look at my own experience here and how I’m dealing with whatever is going on—whether I’m skimming over the surface, reacting badly, or indulging. The experience starts with the body.

That’s why I talk about hurt—it’s a deep inquiry point. I heard of a nunnery where they used to recite the 37 Practices of a Bodhisattva. When I was living in England and working in a horrible workplace where people were cold and aloof, I memorized those 37 verses. It was so helpful because I was incredibly lonely, unhappy in my relationship, and people were very unsympathetic. If you say something mean, that’s bad speech; but if you don’t say anything at all and remain aloof, to me, that is also bad speech. Reciting those verses every day kept me grounded and stopped me from getting carried away in those confined, frustrating spaces.

Josh: That’s lovely, and maybe that would be a topic for another day. In the safe container of a silent retreat, everybody agrees we’re not snubbing each other. But even in silence, the mind wants to fill in the gaps: “Why are they acting that way? What should I do?”

There’s a time to remain silent, and a time to promote social ease, well-being, and camaraderie. Being silent can also be an avoidant tactic—it’s all about the intent behind it. Why am I intending to speak? Why am I intending to be silent? That’s where the karmic payoff is.

Sensitivity can actually be a strength, and vulnerability shows a depth of connection and heart. But that’s not an excuse for other people’s bad behavior. We are responsible for our own speech, actions, and intents, but only partially responsible for how people take it.

Wendy: Yesterday at this community building course, the instructor was saying, “When you want to build community, read chapter 2: don’t get anxious, dominant, and controlling.” And this woman sitting next to me pulls out the book and says to the class, “Yeah, so this is what you shouldn’t be doing!” [laughter] And I’m just sitting there thinking, “Thanks, I’ve already read the book.” [laughter]

Last week, someone was about to hand out leftover papers to the middle of the class, and this woman goes, “Hello?!” and then says, “Thank you,” in this really snide voice. This is kind of what group living is like. Monasteries and nunneries are exactly the same. We are all patients in the clinic, you know?

Josh: Yeah. I have a pivotal story about that, but I’m not ready to tell it publicly here. But by and large, what I like about staying in monasteries is that everybody is on the same page to some degree, and they’re answerable to that.

Wendy: I was thinking about Robina Courtin—she’s an Australian nun. She joined because she had basically run out of people to hate! She arrived in the monastery and couldn’t sit for seven years; she was just wild and intense. In a situation with someone like that woman in my class, if I say anything, it’s just going to escalate. So I have to kind of take it, even though I don’t want to. How would you respond in that situation?

Josh: I would probably fail! [laughter] Usually, I make wisecracks. I don’t have the restraint you do, Wendy. Restraint of speech and action takes work, but the most important thing driving it is our thinking. That’s where meditation helps. I would probably make a wisecrack to mirror her behavior back to her, or wait for an opportunity outside away from everyone to approach her. How you say it is just as important as what you say. But like you said, sometimes it’s a lost cause and you’d just be wasting energy.

Before we wrap up, I do want to briefly mention pseudo-partners. I didn’t know this term, but basically, it’s a platonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex that looks like a friendship, but is actually fulfilling an intimate emotional role without the physical intimacy that someone might be lacking in their own relationship. I used to confuse it for regular friendship. There are gray lines in dharma communities because a lot of times it’s about the dharma. Do you have anything to say about this before we wrap up?

Wendy: I don’t know much about the term, but thinking about monastics—nuns and monks are in separate quarters, and men and women can be friends, but they must never cross that line.

Josh: I’m not thinking of monastics here, but laypeople. Just interactions with females where I thought it was a completely benign friendship, but didn’t realize there could be a potential that they’re interacting to get certain emotional needs met.

Wendy: I can speak to that. Relationships with other women are great, but they can be really intense. I have a lot of friendships with guys—often previous partners where we’ve moved out of that whole thing and remain friends. We know each other well enough, but we don’t have that sexual stuff between us anymore.

Relationships with women can be full-on, whereas with guys, that hyper-intensity is dialed down. For guys who might have an aloof experience with other men, having a conversation with a woman allows them to express a more intimate side that they can’t with their guy friends. It’s kind of the opposite for women.

Josh: That’s very helpful, Wendy. Thank you for that—it explains a lot of these dynamics.

Well, with that, until next time, y’all find your wise friends, figure that out, and ask for feedback.

Wendy: Yeah, and keep sane in this crazy world.

Josh: Yes, please! Definitely write in with your feedback and responses for me. Stay safe, and I love you all. Goodbye!

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

Due to the size of this chapter this is part 2 of the eleventh chapter “Happiness” (starting with subchapter 11.9 “Happiness and Ethics” to the end of Chapter 11) from the book:

Buddhadhamma: The Laws Of Nature And Their Benefits To Life
by Bhikkhu P. A. Payutto (Somdet Phra Buddhaghosacariya)

Published by Buddhadhamma Foundation
Copyright © Buddhadhamma Foundation 2021
Translated by Robin Philip Moore

Editor: Bhikkhu Kovilo, typesetting: Bhikkhu Gambhīro

Download this e-book in PDF, EPUB and MOBI formats at the following address: https://buddhadhamma.github.io

This is a gift not for sale / to be sold. I just read it and claim zero copyright. Please support https://www.buddhadhammafoundation.com

Integrating Presence is made with Jetpack Podcast. Full show notes and every episode at https://integratingpresence.com/

[Note: Wendy’s audio improves significantly after four minutes]

In this forty-third installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, we continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion this time with the massive topic of non-harm. Our last Q and A on the five ethical training precepts took some interesting turns. This time we look at what those five are mostly based on: non-harming. This is big and basic yet foundational for meditation practice, wisdom and everyday life with massive range for our inner worlds, the outer world and beyond

(Ai more or less puts this talk thus:) Non-harming is explored as the foundational principle underlying Buddhist ethical precepts, meditation practice, and daily life: how harm manifests internally (self-blame, hurt feelings, “spikiness”) and externally (difficult relationships, power dynamics, manipulation, political rhetoric), emphasizing self-responsibility, honest self-reflection, and skillful communication over blame. 

Key themes include: 

The tone is personal, reflective, and conversational, blending everyday examples with Buddhist wisdom.

Some resources for a few things mentioned:

Mahayana traditions often emphasize the Bodhisattva Precepts (from the Brahma Net Sutra), which include the Three Pure Precepts plus sets of major and minor vows focused on benefiting all beings.

Lojong is a Tibetan Mahayana practice with 59 slogans (organized into 7 points) by Atisha and Chekawa Yeshe Dorje. It focuses on transforming adversity into the path of awakening, compassion, and reducing self-centeredness.

*There’s naturally an ongoing open call for meditation (related) questions for the (roughly) monthly “Meditation Q & A” either by the various social media means listed; integratingpresence[at]protonmail.com or just showing to type/ask live.*

Regular, current and past visitors to Integrating Presence may recall the monthly series “Ask Us Anything” I did with Denny K Miu from August 2020 until January 2022 — partially including and continuing on with Lydia Grace as co-host for awhile until March 2022.

For a few months thereafter I did various Insight Timer live events exploring potential new directions and/or a continuation of the Ask Us Anything format while weaving in other related teachings to these events.

Then, after chats with meditation coach Wendy Nash, it became clear to start a new collaboration similar to “Ask Us Anything” simply and clearly called “Meditation Q & A” especially due to the original intent of the Ask Us Anything’s being “discussions about meditation and related topics.”

Past chats with Wendy:

Unedited transcript via YouTube:

Full Raw Verbatim Transcript (with timestamps removed via ai):

Hey homelessness, welcome. This is Josh, integrating presence Wendy Nash. What’s going on today?

Well, I’m here on Gubby Gubby country in Queensland in culture. Josh, you’re I think in Colorado at the moment.

No, I’m back from Colorado. Back in Missouri. So, yes, it’s a little confusing. I didn’t change the thing on my website that had mountain time, which is in Colorado. So, I was confused on how long I was going to be there, but back here in Missouri. And so, today

Yeah, today we’ve we’re doing I just might as well just jump right in here.

Um, and it looks like another platform is working at this time. So, I’m just I just started that. So, this is our 43rd installment of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash here and we we’re going to continue our inquiry into meditation practice both on and off the cushion.

This time with the massive topic of nonharm.

The last Q&A we did was on the uh five ethical training precepts took it took some interesting turns. This time we’ll look at those uh what those five are mostly based on which is nonharming.

This is big and basic yet foundational for meditation practice wisdom and everyday life with a massive range for our inner worlds, the outer world and beyond. So where do we start with this one?

Well, actually, you know how I’ve got this thing at the moment where I’m talking about hurt and ache? Yes. You can hear in my chair.

Oh, no.

Yes. So, this morning I was in my meditation thinking about what because I love um when I’m meditating to think why is it in that situation it doesn’t bother me but in that situation it does.

I like the compare and contrast model because like what is the difference there? And so I think about hurt. Why when do I feel hurt? And I realized this morning because I I kind of get into the blame game. Talk about nonharm. Haha.

Not. So um and what I realized is that I feel hurt. I mean I blame people when I feel hurt. When I feel hurt, it’s because I actually am somehow believing that what they’re saying is true.

I know that’s a bit controversial, but when I feel completely like, well, that has nothing to do with me. They’re just a bit nuts. Then I go, okay. But there is a part of me that realizes that maybe I’m not all squid clean and, you know, all the rest. And I realized that there was a part of me that actually um I was a bit spiky still like I knew I used to be but I it still sits there and I can feel it in some of the way that I’ve interacted with people and and I just got and some comments on Facebook you know you can get there pretty pretty quick and so I was just sorry about mentioning that social media account.

Um, so I was just um reflecting on how the only way to step into that space is well, this is the way that I do it anyway, which is to ask myself in meditation, what needs to be known here? So, I’ve got an identity. I’m hurt. what’s what else is here in the picture?

You know, what am I not seeing about this? And I just went, “Wow, I’m actually quite spiky. Well, you know, I’m not always my best self. What can I say?” But instead of trying to excuse, well, everybody’s not, you know, their best self all the time. I thought, well, I am actually sometimes not my best self. And maybe I agree with them that there is a part of me that doesn’t that sort of deserves to be hurt. Now I’m not being all, you know, you deserve to be treated badly or anything like that. I’m certainly not advocating in that space, but just to recognize that sometimes I can be not my, you know, I’m not being my best self. as well.

Well, that’s this is really I mean this is the nitty-gritty of everyday life.

And before I jump into my response here, um I think we had this last time that it’s it’s just a little bit muddy on the audio, but not too bad. It’s still it’s still um it’s still okay otherwise. Um so sorry to to detract from that, but it’s it’s all good. I will set I will change my u audio settings. I’m just going to go to this venerable’s response that I love surrounding the well first off I will say that that’s my tendency too and see I’m even one of blaming the fact that I’m blaming so that’s my tendency too to go to someone else and say oh it’s on them not me right and then I even want to blame like my my parents or whoever my upbringing and external circumstances for me to be blaming. And so to me, this this speaks to self- responsibility. But the the the way this one venerable put it, um, when someone says something about me, there’s basically two main options. Either we learn something about ourselves and what they’re actually saying has some validity, or we learn about them, what kind of person they are, right? And a lot of times I find what someone says has a lot to do about actually what’s been done to them. And so they’re they’re saying the same thing. But but sometimes it’s totally legitimate and it is about me and it’s a completely valid point. Now you know um then then we come to discernment. That’s why meditation is so in reflection and contemplation is so great because then I can take that in and say okay is there anything to this? like you’re saying from what I remember is basically, you know, like yeah, where is there anything to that? And what do I need to do about it? You know, I was I being a little bit harsh. I like the word spiky. That’s good. You know, like um and yeah, did my words cause harm? And even though I might not have meant that um at least that’s what I tell myself. Was there actually something deeper going on where I wanted to have some kind of harm and I just wasn’t conscious or um maybe I just wasn’t aware of that and I don’t want that to happen. So then I want that feedback if it’s valid and legitimate and helpful to then inform how I go forward because at the root of this like we I mentioned at the beginning harm is kind of the harm and non-harming is the the core of ethical practice. And not to get too political here, but you know, apparently there’s a war going on. And war is big business in America, you know, and there’s all kinds of rhetoric on why it’s okay to harm, how one is in the right to do it, what kind of stories and narratives and imperatives and just, you know, even religious um righteousness because my God said it’s we’re justified in killing, you know, and all manner of craziness. I would just or just ridiculousness about why it’s okay to harm and that’s a radical statement but uh in today’s society but but so be it you know yeah I just going back to your first statement you know venerable who said either it’s about them or it’s about you and I would like to say actually who says it’s binary either or you know these things relationships are dependent arising so there’s nothing to say that both of us aren’t sitting there being hurt and there’s a particular instance, a particular person and M Reed is here on the scene. Hi Josh. Hi Wendy. So good to be here on this topic. Love to have you here. Maybe is there something that you would like to share now? You’re a little bit behind just because of the way the recordings go, but um you’ll catch up quick. Welcome. We put it put your question in now while we’re on this topic and then we’ll come back to you.

But there’s one particular person who I find quite there’s two people in my life. One is in my family and one is in my professional world who are both quite difficult characters and both of them play the power game. Now, I know a lot of powerful people because I deal with politicians and stuff like that, but it’s really interesting when people feel like very quickly threatened by me. Now, I don’t like to think of myself as being threatening, you know, like I’m what 55 kilo woman and I’m 165 cm tall. So I don’t know what that is in the old numbers but um but you know not physically threatening but what I’ve realized is that threat comes in many forms and we have identities about mirror mirror on the wall who’s the somethingest of us all and so I do feel that these two people that I know one is very threatened by the fact that um they want to be the both of them want to be the center of attention actually they want to both of them be the leaders in this space and I’m just doing my thing and I just want to do what I do and I’m happy to collaborate but both of those are solo players and want to be the one who claims the glory they want to be the one who who’s got that But that’s because in their own world they too have wounds and hurts.

But that doesn’t mean to say that when they kind of cut me off or say something mean to me, I don’t say something mean back just in my frustration, in my own hurt.

And so I think it’s like this pinball machine of like bing bing bing bing bing bing bing where you’re ricocheting around your own hurts. So I I often think of Shanti Deva. I don’t know if you’ve read much of Shanti Deva, but I do like this example of the stick, you know, was blaming someone for their bad behavior is like blaming the stick for hitting me, you know, like you can’t. So Emmery says here, “Yeah, I can do harm and not know I do harm. So what is the best approach to this?” Well, so I don’t know if you noticed, but at the beginning, Emmery, I said my approach is when I’m meditating to ask myself, what needs to be known here? Just sort of sit in the middle of this unpleasant feeling because this particular kind of thing where everything gets quite still and I’m going, h, okay, I’m in the zone. What needs to be known here? And I just keep repeating that. And often I’ll put in um things like uh what’s the theme common to all these thoughts or what’s the emotion common to all these thoughts and I find that very helpful. So that’s me.

What about you Josh? What do you say is um what’s the best approach? Well there’s there’s a lot here. Yeah.

Let me let me pick up on uh what you said. Yes. And it’s not as simple as the we either learn something about the other person or we learn something about ourselves. A lot of times that’s particularly helpful if I can’t figure out, oh, is that them or is that me? Is what they’re saying actually about me or what they’re saying is actually shows me where they’re at and what’s been done to them when there’s some kind of confusion or just taking these extra perspectives.

Yeah, it’s not as simple as a binary thing. That’s for sure. I want to ask Wendy before I get to the the question here is did did you ever ask them d I’m curious did you ever ask them directly if if the the people you say that um they they they what was the language you use that they think that you’re um harming them or yeah do did you ever ask them directly or did you just kind of assume that they think that you’re hurtful towards them do you know what I mean or how do you how how did you know how did you find out that how did you come to that assessment.

Well, one is somebody he’s one of my local he’s my local counselor and he’s blocked me from his Facebook page. He doesn’t email anymore. Yeah. And um now you know and I I had to kind of write to him and just go, “Yeah, you can’t actually behave like that.” Like he he came up behind and put his hand on me and he’s a bit sleazy and creepy and stuff. And I had to write to him and just go, “No, you can’t do that.” It’s actually a power play. It’s a status power play. So, um, yeah. And the other person, that’s a more complicated relationship to do with other stuff in both of our personal lives. It’s a family situation. So, it it starts from a long long time ago in the galaxies of past eons. And yeah.

Oh, okay. Thanks. Good. Thank you. So yes, well here’s here’s how awesome Wendy’s advice is is really good too. So the introspection and contemplating on it and asking the questions but and the other external ones for me are just sometimes it’s embarrassing and sometimes I don’t have the courage to do it but I just say oh is you know if I’m getting something intuitively from them like oh did is is that I mean did you just asking for feedback basically you know how did that land for you or um I I it seems like you’re upset are are are you really upset and was it has something to do with me. But usually a lot of the people that I interact, they have no qualms about telling me right away. You you know, you you I can’t believe you said that to me or you you’re you know, yeah, it’s it’s my fault. It’s so this what we talked about at the beginning is this and I do that too. I do it a lot is blame other people and yeah so it’s it’s a tough one too because sometimes there is something to that where I need to um to say that but other times it’s a vicious cycle then right so one of the ways I like to do uh this but I’m not usually mindful enough to do it is when it just say oh when when I I’m feeling like this right now you know use like describing feeling language and I’m not really good at this you know I have the concept but then putting into practice is another thing you know instead of saying oh you made me feel this way saying oh wow I’m I’m feeling like this right now you know um when I when I hear that I feel this way you know uh and then they say oh oh am I to blame for that and I go usually I go well I don’t know because um so this is the other thing when we when we speak my intentionality is 100% my responsibility when but when I say something I’m only partially responsible for that because otherwise I can’t control how anyone takes my language but I’m still partially responsible. If I was 100% responsible then I should be able to control exactly how they take it. I want you to take what I say in this way and not in this way you know because this is but that’s not how it works. I don’t have that kind of control but there has to be some shared responsibility uh and how it lands for another I feel. So yeah and now we’re just talking about language too. I mean, the most obvious form of hurt is physical violence, I would think. You know, unless someone’s like pleasure center is inverted, and unfortunately, I’ve seen this happening where they they get into things where they they feel that physical pain is actually pleasurable. That’s a whole another ridic um thing. That’s that’s not what we’re talking about here. That’s that’s kind of a pathology, I would say, almost, you know. Um Yeah. So, that’s a that’s another thing.

So, Emmery has said, “Oh, good. So good communication skills and feedback. So there you go. Now just two things. I think there are other channels where people are giving us uh feedback live and comments, but I actually can’t see see those other channels. So do you want to just see?

Sure. I’ll check. I I I want to say in in in the chat it should be all combined now, but maybe it’s not. Okay.

Because just wanted to just find out.

Sure. So I I thought about that, you know, I feel this and you know, it’s been part of our language for quite a while. It’s part of our contemporary practice.

And I’m going to say I don’t like it because I think for some people, you know, like I lived in England for a while and to talk about your feelings is so culturally inappropriate. It’s it’s really and then what I notice is that it makes the other person aware of their emotional stuff and they may not be ready. So if I think about these two people in in my life, professional and personal, neither of them are emotionally available particularly. It’s very interesting because the counselor is very very close to with his wife. I because I see them together around they do stuff together. Um but the other person Yeah. No, not not at all. Just just is very finds that she calls that you’re dumping on me.

So, so I would just I would just flag that one that that means that that person is illequipped to ex to navigate the emotional landscape. What I prefer is what I hear you care about is.

So in this um conversation, what I would say for you is what I hear you care about is treading carefully and kind of owning your own stuff, trying to repair and mend relationships and recognize that you are don’t always do your best, but you try, but it doesn’t always go well. So, that’s what I hear you care about. Now, when I said that, how do you how what’s your internal experience?

Of course, that’s that’s beautiful, Wendy. And of course, that’s way more skillful and adept and applies in more situations, right? that my the the the thing that I’m trying to fumble through only works right when there’s some emotional availability, which is a really good word. Not that I’m always emotionally available either. And my emotional IQ is not where I’d like it to be either. You know, I don’t lead with that. A lot of times it’s a kind of a train skill and I have to drop everything usually and go into that because usually I’m, you know, business, you know, it’s like cross things off the list, get it done. And that’s not the best way to, you know, be in a lot of different relationships. I mean, it’s efficient and it can keep things, you know, uh, in harmony to some degree, but it’s it’s really kind of a surface level business type thing. But you’re you’re right, not everybody’s emotionally available or emotionally equipped to to to to go in that way. But the way that you illustrated there I think is applicable in almost any situ or lots of situations whether the person has any emotional intelligence you know any you know any sensitivity you know emotional availability it it’s a great way to do it not only that but it shows that you’re actually paying attention and you care you know as long the as long as it doesn’t get inverted. There are unfortunately a few people where I’ve found where they use that as a kind of a and I’m not saying you’re doing this because I don’t get that at all. It’s just like an a manipulative thing. So, so you kind of you kind of gather what someone says and then you kind of summarize it in a way that or not you, let’s just say I I summarize it in a way that I want for my agenda and then I kind of try to put words in their mouth where it’s not necessarily untrue, but it’s a leaning and slanting towards what I want rather than deeply honestly caring uh you know about the other uh the other person’s point of view. But again that’s hopefully we won’t have to encounter that too much you know the manipulation of these techniques too because unfortunately they can be reversed and inverted and used you know in the wrong ways too but yeah overall though people I think most people can tell whether the other person’s heart is genuine or not you know so it’s not that big a deal I find so

I mean our topic is non harm today and it’s very interesting so earlier on this year I was in a meeting with a a company and uh well with with one person in a company and in the meeting I was like oh she really got it that was really and I felt and then I left and I was like wow I was so had she just played me like a violin like totally and I lost all respect for her in that moment I had heard very good things about her and I just went yeah you are just something else and I bumped into her another time. And yeah, she’s as shallow as a saucer, you know, and I just thought, yeah, like I I kind of don’t I don’t have any respect for you.

Which means that the way that you behaved had harm because I’m not going to lose respect for somebody who I see is working with non nonharm. You know, that’s just somebody who is performing that. And you know, I do like the Lo Jong slogans. Do you know much about the I know I knew I know a few of these and I’ve heard them read off before. They’re beautiful trainings. Yeah. Please um share with those with us. And then I want to see how you view these type of people in these I find them really fascinating uh part of practice to and how to view and respond to these type of people that you’re talking about you know that’s it’s it’s a really fascinating um um you know thinking about that person I just feel um you know there is a saying you cannot be lied to unless you want to believe the lie.

So that’s always worth thinking, ah, you know, how could you betray me? How could you lie to me? Actually, you were a a co-articipant in that lie. There’s a saying, let those who want to be fooled be fooled. Something like that, you know. Yeah, exactly.

Um, yeah. So, I just feel like I was complicit in thinking she understood me as opposed to being able to see through her cuz I wanted I was like, “Oh, you know, she’s she’s whatever. She’s invited me to the meeting. This is amazing.” And then it turned out, yeah, no, this is just a tickbox exercise.

So, so how do I navigate that? You can hear the hurt in that experience. You can hear the sense of mistrust. You can hear the contempt. and derision and scorn and so and the defensiveness and so I think I just have to recognize that you know still plenty of material to work with and and I just I you know there’s such a deep yearning in me from my childhood that I want to be liked and I thought she liked me and then I realized Oh no, she wasn’t my friend. She didn’t want to play with me. She was just playing a game.

Yeah. And for me, my response usually is I get infuriated. That really the dishonesty is something that just absolutely infuriates me and I have to I have to deal with that because part of it is a protective mechanism, right? And and I kind of laugh at these things because to to keep from crying in some sense, you know, because it’s just the the the range of behavior and it almost seems like the the character I don’t want to speak for because I’ve never met this woman, but what I’m thinking of is is different interactions I’ve in past.

And then if you were to try to express that honestly to some people, it it does it doesn’t do anything. you know, it’s just like they almost get off on that they’re kind of superior and that they’re, you know, uh, in a position that they are and they can do what they want and pretend otherwise, you know.

And I think it’s said in this in the Buddhist scriptures and it really resonates with me. If someone shows no sense of remorse for telling lies, there is no amount of like harm that they can do, you know, because if they don’t really think there’s anything wrong with it, then they can do just about anything and think it’s okay, you know, and so is super dangerous in a sense. You know what I mean? And and some people just don’t know, you know, but there is psychopathy or psych, yeah, that’s the right word, right? And sociopathy. And so I’m not saying that’s a full-blown thing, but like like what do we do? And the big thing is I um I if I lash out or get upset, they just it just seems they feed on that, right? And it will just perpetuate. So there needs to be other strategies because that is um there’s a famous line the damapata that uh uh nonharm or harm is never overcome with harm. Only with nonharm is is harm overcome. this is an ancient eternal law or something like this, right? Because it it and Dr. Martin Luther King said something similar too, but it is so to me uh when when something comes harmful at me um and it’s just kind of verbal, then there has to be a strength and a courage and a patience to take that initial hit because usually I will just lash out and return the same energy and then it comes back and it perpetuates and it just makes things work at worse and it escalates, it snowballs. So I almost have to not that I need to be a martyr or anything but if I want something different to happen I need to do so some something different has to happen. So one of the things is taking that initial hit being uncomfortable. Oh this is unpleasant. This hurts. I know that it’ll only be there for a moment but that is the way forward that I want to be happy or in the long run not right because usually it’s just tit for tat. I’ll just get back at them and then I will overcome them and I’ll be right and then I’ll win. But no, the other person is in pain that they still that doesn’t they’re oh yeah, you’re right. Let’s all be friends now, you know. Oh, thanks for speaking so horribly to me. Now we’re just No, it doesn’t usually there’s kind of immity still in the heart. So something has to be different. Okay, that’s enough.

So about uh 13 years ago um I was in a job and my line manager she resigned or I left whatever it was. No, she resigned and I gave her a hug and I said something and because she’s English and she had actually no idea that I had actually said really something patronizing and condescending and I had and I didn’t know I had said it, but I I I said it and it just didn’t reverberate with her. And so it just landed back to me and I went, “Wow, okay, I can see why people don’t like me because I’m just going,”Wow, I’m not really not a pleasant person here.” And so I think that so my goal with people who are like that is if you if you feel tortured by their experience, you either react or you feel succumbed. I’ll put it that way. They have won either way. But what if through our own practice and our own experience of clarity and awake, you know, like owning more and more basically it gets to the point where it just passes through a bit like I did with this uh boss and actually they just get it back to themselves when they start to see who they are and and they may become enraged with me but I haven’t done anything except do nothing. So they kind of can’t accept experience their own uh thing. So I do think it so I have some friends with psychopathic traits and what I notice about them and what I notice about myself when I get into very power oriented systems is there is a sense of paranoia that emerges and I have the feeling that when somebody becomes paranoid when they start to feel paranoid about and I’m not talking about schizophrenia or anything like that I’m just sort of talking about um this sense of they’re out to at me or you know like they they’re attacking me or whatever. That actually um that is because there is a part of the mind that knows that there is something you should be shameful of but you’re not willing to own it and so it becomes inverted into par into paranoia.

Wow. That’s that’s that’s great. So that it’s so it’s a signaling the saying that something needs to change here. Something’s happening that I’m doing that I’m not seeing that needs to be called to attention and and and owned and admitted. Yeah. Wow. Huh. How’ you go ahead or I I would say the thing because it the psychopathic structures and I don’t want to get too much into it but um because it’s not one where it can turn internally. Paranoia is internalized experience of discomfort of shame that is projected outwards onto other they are going to get me. Someone out there is going to do some me some harm. And it’s actually because their their own egoic structure is unable to experience shame and tolerable to tolerate it and so it just gets twisted into this outwards thing. So you what kind of sh What kind of shame though? I’m interested in what kind of shame do you think?

Well, I guess it’s a little bit like I was saying at the beginning, you know, ah well actually I am not always my best self and I am and I think I would say for that structure it would be power plays and that wouldn’t surprise me then why people who are very into power become more and more paranoid about killing the opponents because because and in fact it feeds onto itself. So then they become more paranoid. So they set it up so they’re more p power oriented and then they become more paranoid and it just you can see how it just sort of spirals.

Well, it is too because to to get in a sense of worldly power a lot of times harm I shouldn’t say a lot of times I’m imagining that some harm has to be done or because for a lot of things in the world if I get something someone else has to miss out on it, right? But that one person that’s missing out on it probably doesn’t want to miss out on it. And so they might want to go into competition to get that thing. So if there is, and there’s different degrees of scarcity. And you know, I’m speaking a little bit abstractly, but those who rise in power, there’s other people that are competing to want to have the same type of power or position that they’re in. And so if that person wants to cling on to that position, then they have to watch their back, right? And if you’re constantly watching your back all the time, you might be in fear or that might escalate into paranoia too, right? And so, yeah, these are really the this is really interesting um human behavior we’re we’re talking about here. Yeah. And now I think I the other if if I could jump back to in Reed’s question here too. Another way that I um look to the wise, you know, and wisdom teachings and the wise and teachers to find out if I’m being uh harmful too. And um yeah, and a lot of times I don’t realize it. Another good practice is just to do a blanket forgiveness practice. I find too when I can remember it’s it’s customary in certain monasteries to do that to just say you know if if I’ve done anything knowingly or unknowingly uh please forgive me you know and then also to forgive others and it it’s tough because it doesn’t it can’t really be a superficial thing either and some people have problems with this word forgiveness and that’s understandable too because of different baggage and uh thinking that you know uh anyway it’s complicated and that’s for another time but I think that’s another beautiful practice if it’s done the right way and feel comfortable and it’s the right time to to do it and sincere as well. So yeah, just about the word forgive. Um, so in the European languages, so take that from a from a Christian talked about this too. Yeah, mine it means that I forgo the right to uh for retribution. And so I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about. we’re talking about. I think it’s more like I feel resentful and I and I want to stop feeling resentful. I think it’s got a different twist to it when we talk about it in the contemporary sense.

It does, but that that inter I think it’s there’s some similarity because there’s an internal thing there. At least I’ve noticed when I’ve harbored grudges, there’s an ill will sometimes there. Like I really want to hurt that person because what they did to me even though I won’t act on it, the ill will is still there or maybe I have in the past at least said something nasty, you know, but the type of but so in a way that’s yeah, it’s letting go of in a sense that uh notion to want to that person to have some harm come to them because of what they did to me or whatever. Wrong. So yeah, wrong. I I I interpret. But the thing is that yeah, it’s that it’s it’s hurting me. It’s not hurting them to harbor that ill will, right? Um but and then the other confusion I think it comes around forgiveness is saying if I forgive them, then that says what they did is right or what they did is okay. And that’s not what it means. That’s not what we’re talking about. So if we need a different word to mean that it it’s the burden I’m carrying around that’s not harming them or not making anything I’m the one suffering and and hurting from this not them anymore or you know it’s not has anything to do with them. So and it does not mean what they did is okay you know not at all.

Oh I’m and I’m very partial to holding on to a good grudge. I do like to do it. I’m I’ve noticed how much I love to do it. I wish I didn’t like it so much, but it’s such a great addiction, you know? I’m like, “Oh, I’m the ones who’s so harmed. I’m the one who’s, you know,” and it’s like some bad 1970s program of, you know, and and you see this in the movies all the time, you know, revenge of the soul kind of hero and and there’s a whole lot of American stuff about that. It’s like, oh, victim victimizer is huge, you know, or bully victim. And then the throw the hero in for the other drama part of the triangle here where you know the the bully becomes the victim and the victim becomes the bully and then oh maybe a hero will come and stop all this or maybe I’ll be the hero and save somebody else’s from from the bully and it just it just cycles on and on and on and people know this and they that some people use that to their advantage and fuel this this drama triangle right and take advantage of that because of how uh certain people are, you know, and the habit patterns, the energy and the culture around this stuff.

What I noticed with that counselor is that what he does is he will create drama and then come in and want to be the rescue person. Oh yeah. And then he offends everybody. He’ll just suddenly get up and then he’ll be completely dismissive and rude in a whole lot of ways to a whole lot of people. And I’m going, you’re an elected official. I think your name, you should really be focusing on gaining connections, not not kind of creating enemies. I just, you know, there’s a part of me that goes, I kind of feel really sorry for you because and it’s pity actually. I guess that’s contempt, but there’s just like, man, you’re so clueless.

No, but it’s it’s it’s like once you see um you see the this pattern, how it plays out, it is laughable because like what’s going on here? Can’t people see this and how it’s going and how like it’s like a caricature, right? Like a cartoon almost when you kind of see how the how this thing plays out. And yeah, I mean it my it’s so absurd. I I mean that’s why I think that the laughing for me it’s just so absurd. I don’t know really how what am I supposed to do with this, you know? How am I supposed to respond to this? Uh, seriously, in some senses, you know, but but I’m like the the orange hair man on I mean the things that come out of the this I was like I don’t know what to do with that. I just kind of like that’s so absurd. Like what am I supposed to how am I supposed to view that or respond to what am I supposed to do with that? It’s what I you know there was there’s a federal a federal politician I was listening to.

So we were at a conference and so there’s a television. We don’t normally have a television. So, it’s like, oh, that’s a television. Let’s go for the channel which has the most provocative makes the most provocative statements. We happened to tune into this federal politician ranting with this like appalling journalist and and we were sitting there and and I and I put the timer on and I went, “Okay, how long can we last?” And I got I couldn’t make it to three minutes. But um and this see this politician, he’d been around for a long long time. Mr. Australian politician, are I sitting there kind of going, I actually don’t even know what you’re saying. It’s not even like what you’re saying is just really nasty and, you know, and hurtful, but I’m just going I don’t think I heard one coherent sentence in that. And the journalist is this particularly unpleasant character and he just goes exactly and and I think he’s all he’s he’s just doing it to incite hatred in the audience.

So that’s that’s harm. You know, there’s a lot of harm in there, but there’s something about this banding together that makes people feel that they’re on the right side.

And but the problem is it becomes more and more infighting. I’ve been looking at messaging for this. You know, I’ve got this not for profofit for transport and I’m going how do we talk about stuff? And what’s very interesting is to look in at um Schwarz’s values. And there’s the self-trcendent stuff which is all about communitarian positive stuff. And then there’s the self-enhancement which is money, power, that stuff. Ex. And one is implicit. This is what we all want. We all want good community. And the other one is explicit which is more about me versus you.

And what I what I have noticed is that when you have political parties that are more me me and less communitarian, what happens with that is that um and I don’t mean the inclusive stuff because a lot of the inclusive stuff is really alienating and irritating but but if you have community goals then that more people will sort of stick into that space for sure. Um but what happens with the self-enhancement goals is the more you talk about money and power it increases your selfishness and so you start off being a mob and then slowly it sort of kind of that you start off going well us against them and then the the us becomes smaller and smaller and then it becomes me against you and it just becomes increasingly increasingly kind of um separ separatist I don’t know what the word And for all the good things that sports do, I guess I think they they lent to that though, you know, they lent to that. And you know, going uh so this is really important that some spiritual circles there’s a lot of new age distortions, but one of the dichotoies that are sometimes helpful although I think it’s still off is service to self or service to others, you know, and what what are we doing here? Are we am I feeding me only me? You know, there’s that’s a difference between taking uh self- responsibility, making sure I’m in a good place, and then I can help others. That’s different than than it’s all about me and my clan and nobody else. And we’ll go into competition and fighting. No, it’s u as my my girlfriend says, the the highest um first of many for the highest good of the many, you know. So, this is um yeah, so that we can we can help each other uh when when we’re a good place to do so. Especially now going back to the politician, what I kept thinking is do you know about neurallingistic programming? Uh and I I was wondering if they they use that too and about this notion you point out a really interesting thing too about how they they band people together sometimes out of outrage and you know all kinds of different things. But then what interesting ends up happening is then you get the us versus them but then you get more division inside and so you have infighting as well. And so it’s divide and conquer. So those on top then they can s they can rule and control those who are divided and fighting amongst each other too. And I also want to um say since it is a meditation Q&A uh on a personal level um if I’ve harmed somebody that’s going to be one of the first things that comes up when I sit in silence you know and that was the first few years of my practice uh waking up to the fact of how much harm I have done how much harm had been done to me and not to fall into the victim again but it sometimes it that’s it didn’t even realize that all this stuff is going on and so that’s compass I mean um yeah self-compassion but also forgiveness was really helpful forgiving myself that was huge being able to do that and then u forgiving others and asking for forgiveness too uh for what I had totally forgotten about or didn’t see the full extent of so it’s it’s uh self-nowledge is rarely good news as they say but as that clears out take self- responsibility but then it becomes more and more sensitized I think so what what I used to be able to kind of get away with and not suffer like consequence or whatever. Now it’s become more and more subtle. So where even slighter things that I wouldn’t even probably have noticed before the blowback is more and that’s very noticeable uh especially if you sit down in silence and not keeping precepts you know find it comes back fairly quick these days.

And I also wanted to remind you about long j help me out with the pronunciation this Tibetan training if you want to go into some of those too. I think. Yeah, Lojang. Thank you. Easy for me to say.

Well, I’ll just pull them up here on the side because I think that’s So, one some of them that I really like um some I one of them is don’t act with a twist. So, I think that’s really clear. You don’t that doesn’t need any explaining.

Um and I the other one I like is of the two witnesses, trust the principal one. And that has two meanings as far as I’m aware. And one of them is only you know when you’re kidding yourself and only you know what is right for you. So they’re my sort of so that that one is my thing and the other one is um or what is it? I’ll I’ll let me just pull up a list.

Sure. And while you’re saying don’t act with a twist. This is yeah definitely guilt and guilty I don’t know is the right word but alter I think of ulterior motives here like I’m saying one thing but the way I’m presenting it is not completely I I have something else behind it or in context that I’m not explicitly stating that I that I find is too harsh and that I don’t want to say directly but uh but but it’s there and I I I want to kind of get to that thing behind what I’m saying instead of just directly saying that because it’s either too harsh or it will um be explosive or cause too much. So, it’s it’s like this subtle thing in the background saying one thing but not uh but having something else right there like a Trojan horse almost, you know what I mean? And yeah, speaking in circles or not speaking as directly or having hidden agendas, hidden motives sometimes, you know, and it’s not always necessarily for a bad thing. It’s just that uh sometimes it’s easier to do do it that way. It seems like, you know, which but it’s it’s slimy. It’s it’s really is slimy you. Yeah. So, I was at this transport conference and I bumped into a colleague and she’s such a snake and I and she’s sort of inserting herself with the sort of big hero honchos, you know, all this sort of stuff and she’s at the head table with the big politicians and and it just and then I mentioned, “Oh, look, here’s some data. You might be interested for your thing.” And she replied, “Oh, yeah. And shall I give you a call afterwards?” And I said, “Well, just have a look at it and see what you think.” Oh, and so shall I give you a call afterwards? Well, why don’t you just find out what it is and then just sort of see how you can use that information in your strategy? And then she didn’t say, and so shall I give you a call because it’s like, yeah, don’t call me actually. And she said it another time, you know, it’s all about the relationships. And I’m thinking, yeah, it is all about this game is all about the relationships. And you it’s about integrity. You have you can’t have a relationship with somebody where you’re liked one minute for what you uh for your power cuz the minute you lose the power you actually nobody will have anything to do with you. Um yeah.

So I’ve got a number of the um uh slogans here.

Cool. Let me let me ask real quick. So I’m a little bit confused. So she actually What was she meaning by uh can I call you afterwards? What what was what was the deal with repeating that? Did she really think uh like I I’m I’m still not following that for some reason.

It’s a way of her kind So what she does is she inserts herself into relationships to kind of claim territory. It doesn’t feel like so if I said to you, “Oh, look, have a look at this information.” and you said, “Oh, can I give you a call afterwards?” I’d be like, “That would be amazing. Sure. Well, let’s let’s have a chat about it.” But it felt like this was her trying to insert herself into a place in the relationship.

So, so, so yeah, exact. So, you know that that that smmy feeling that you get where you go, someone’s not straight with you. I’m going, you’re not being you’re not straight. And I also know through on the grapevine it’s like so this watch for this person. She didn’t really care about what you were having to say. She just wanted to make sure that she had um Yeah. She wasn’t put the she wasn’t putting the emphasis where where you wanted it to be right. You know what I mean? She was wanting to have it in what kind of power play she could have with what you were trying to um bring to attention.

So that’s what it seems like. We both very early on like three years ago um we we both gave feedback to this council document and I and she said oh you know and can I is it okay if I can have a look at your your submission and I was at the time I was like yeah sure and I never heard and I asked her oh you know can I have yours and then that never appeared and so there’s that’s one that’s kind of one of those flags where people say I want your information so I can use it for me but or you know they kind of whatever.

Well, especially when you asked for it to you asked to to have be reciprocated and she basically lied or forgot about it or whatever but or maybe I didn’t ask but and I just expected that. So the thing about it is it’s about reciprocity and I think relationships nonharm fundamentally is about reciprocal relationships which are based on integrity, kindness and connection and safety and um uh and sort of sharing this relationship together and all that we do and we have working together in the space. So, it has a collaborative feel to it.

And I think the minute you end up with this feeling of like uh it doesn’t feel reciprocated, I think that’s where you start to get this harm experience because it just feels something feels off and you don’t know what but it suddenly feels a little bit onesided or did I did I miss did am I reading this you know did I did I miss what am I because you can feel it’s not only what people do say. I think what we notice is it’s like what people don’t say, what they don’t offer. And I think that is where it’s the more subtle version of harm can come about. And this is what they say with child abuse or abuse. It’s not the acts of violence which necessarily cause the problem. I mean, that does obviously cause problems and the unpredictability of it, but it’s in some ways harder when people are neglected. Children are neglected. It’s harder to prove you don’t have the bruises and the broken bones. So, it’s sort of a different thing.

Yeah, neglect is a huge core wound that many of us have along with, you know, abuse. And I’m trying to think of these other core wounds, but yeah, neglect is, yeah, it’s it’s not as noticeable. And and I just the other comment when you talked about watching the politicians on TV. Yeah. Three minutes. That’s that’s great. I don’t know if I could have made it that much. Usually I start yelling at the TV. Not yell but commenting on the TV and annoying people around me because it’s just it it is too much uh a lot of times you know. Okay.

Uh so uh did you find these did you find these okay any of them make sense worth worth reading or in this context or not and you know the go ahead so so what I’ve done is I’ve said sum sum up the fi the low jung slogans into five slogans just so for sake of brevity here everything can become the path don’t wait for perfect conditions joy conflict failure illness success and uncertainty are all opportunities to train your mind. So train all mis transform all mishaps into the path of awakening. Yes.

To turn your attention inward first instead of blaming, judging or trying to change others. Examine your own reactions and take responsibility for your part. drive all blames into one as opposed to drive all blames into Juan which is when one perma children speaks about that. Why is everybody blaming Juan? It’s like yeah, you know, nice part. Um yeah, put others at the center.

Cultivate genuine concern for other people’s well-being. Practice generosity, empathy, and the willingness to bear discomfort for the benefit of others. be grateful to everyone and practice sending and taking. So that’s um tongland practice where you are um you are breathing in their pain and you you’re taking on their pain and you are sending out the antidote ease in some way. So that’s that. And then four, hold your views lightly. Your stories about yourself, other people and the world are not reality. Stay curious. Be willing to let go of certainty. Regard all things as dreams. And five, keep practicing, especially when it’s hard.

Mind training isn’t something you do only when you’re calm or inspired. The difficult moments are the practice. If you can practice even when distracted, you are well trained. So the five these five capture the spirit of low jung remarkably well. Use everything. Start with yourself. Care for others. Hold your stories lightly. Keep practicing.

So the Lojong Lojong slogans aren’t primarily about becoming calmer or happier. It’s about becoming less self-centered and more useful. Peace of mind is seen as a consequence of the shift, not the goal itself.

These are really beautiful and um admirable practices for the most part.

And this is Mahayana. The only thing I want to point out and boy I have a hard time of letting go of those holding those those views you know still working on that one for sure but I do want to point out uh in the Mahayana one of the things I caution against is is um they have one of the precepts is even though which is really weird they say know when to hold the precepts and when to break them but that’s really no different than ordinary worldling I think you know because um but but what what I want to say is I think they have one that you’re not supposed to speak um you’re not supposed to speak badly of others or something like this. You’re not supposed to, you know, ever. And so wait a second. I mean I see that where the wisdom is in that. But one thing is if someone is actually abusing someone else, they need to be called out. You know, that needs to be that needs to be called out for what it is. A spade a spade. you can’t just uh not speak unless I I guess there are skillful ways to do it in another way with without you know speaking ill of one someone or blaming someone. The other thing is I just want to caution some people that have like an inferiority complex probably not Wendy and I but like to take on uh this martyrhood you know or having some kind of okay I’m going to be the world’s savior and just take on everybody’s crap. That’s that’s not what they’re saying. But I just wanted to say that, you know, if it’s if it’s interpreted in the wrong way and not done done in the way that it’s supposed to, I think with this, I think it could fall into martyr or u messiahood kind of thing, too. And that’s not what these are pointing to. You know what I mean?

So, we have to be careful, especially some personality types that are quick to blame themselves for everything and little me and you know, I can never do anything right and I’m always wrong. You know, this type of thing. So we got to be careful if that that personality type comes into play here I find. But for a lot of us that’s you know that’s not the case and these are these are beautiful.

So um so don’t malign others don’t talk about injured limbs. So don’t dwell on or publicize others faults or weaknesses which I’m not very good at because I get really hurt by that. Don’t ponder others. Don’t obsess over other people’s shortcomings. Don’t seek others pain as the limbs of your own happiness.

So that’s great. Those are way more nuanced than I’ve heard them put before.

Actually, those are those the way to put it that is I think is more helpful than the other translations I’ve heard of those. Yeah.

Um there is one which he says don’t be a martyr. Let me just um so there is don’t act with a twist. Don’t abandon any hope of fruition. Don’t seek praise or gain. Don’t expect applause.

Um uh but in the in those long gen uh the long you just read too. Yeah.

So so it’s something like you know don’t make an identity out of self-sacrifice. I think that’s what you’re sort of saying. It doesn’t say that but that is that is somewhere in there because that’s acting with a twist. That’s not being sincere for sure. Oh, we’re at time, Josh.

We are. This just flew by again. So, yeah, this was great. This was this was great. There’s so much I mean, non harm is is so massive and it uh can boil down kind of all of our actions. Are they, you know, are they being harmful or not in in a sense? Are, you know, it’s not as black and white as that. Uh there’s a lot of nuance too and there’s a lot of subtleties, but it’s this is this is the core of a lot of ethics and I’m glad we got to talk a little bit about it. So I’ve just I was just looking up know when to break the sleep precepts. Um maybe that’s a Zen thing. Maybe that’s a Zen thing.

There is a Mahayana principle that can look like that from the outside.

So, it’s not know when to bro break break the precepts. It’s don’t make the rules for the goal. Don’t mistake the rules for the goal. Let compassion guide the rules, not the other way around.

See, that’s a better reframing than know when to keep the preexpects and when to break them. That’s kind of a more straightforward Zen approach to saying the same thing you did, which is way more nuanced. I find it maybe helpful. Maybe not as direct and clear, but Yeah.

And but it Yeah. Well, actually we’ve come to the end. We’re over time.

All right, we got to go. Everybody be well and keep keep your nonharm hand strong.

Yeah. And you know, just be ordinary, whatever that is. All right.

Bye, everybody.

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