It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine

Hi, t's Ok That You're Not Ok listeners! We're excited to share with you a sneak peek at iHeartPodcasts' latest release, Heavyweight!

Heavyweight: Maybe you’ve laid awake and imagined how it could have been, how it might yet be, but the moment to act was never right. Well, the moment is here and the podcast making it happen is Heavyweight. Join Jonathan Goldstein for road trips, thorny reunions, and difficult conversations as he backpedals his way into the past like a therapist with a time machine.  

Listen to Heavyweight on the iHeartRadio App or wherever you get your podcasts!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We know that healthcare workers are burned out and exhausted. Provider mental health is a huge issue… but are the institutions listening? 

This week on It’s OK, burnout expert Dr. Jessi Gold talks to us about (obviously) burnout, but also ways HCW* can start to change the workplace culture into one that actually values the human workforce. Sound unlikely? Listen in for Dr. Gold’s ideas for a grassroots movement - using the language of capitalism to get the c-suite to listen.

*We talk a bunch about HCW in this episode, but the topics involved are relevant to everyone who feels even a little bit exhausted by the pressures of the world. 

Dr. Gold’s new book, How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine, is out on October 8, 2024. For more info visit drjessigold.com

 

In this episode we cover:

 

• Can you be emotionless and still practice good medicine?
• How medical training seeks out perfectionists, and then uses that perfectionism as a way to wring out even more work 
• Why you can’t self-care your way out of burnout, but you can support yourself inside the catastrophe
• Ways to get the administration to start valuing their workforce (spoiler: it involves speaking the language of capitalism!) 

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Dr. Jessi Gold is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at Washington University School of Medicine in St Louis. She’s a nationally recognized expert on healthcare worker mental health and burnout (particularly during the pandemic). Her work can be found in major publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and TIME. Find the “burned out burnout expert” at drjessigold.com and on social media @drjessigold

 

Pre-order Dr. Gold’s book - How Do You Feel?: One Doctor's Search for Humanity in Medicine

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Physician Support Line on social @shrink.rapping

 

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention on social @afspnational

 

Clinician Well-Being Knowledge Hub developed by @theNAMedicine 

 

The Emotional PPE Project

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The world is such a hot mess: every day a new disaster, a new human rights catastrophe. It can just feel… endless. Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch joins us to talk about outrage and trauma and community building - it’s like the greatest hits of modern culture. But mostly, she joins us to talk about art - specifically, the ways that storytelling helps us band together and work towards the world we all want. 

PS: Listen all the way through so you don’t miss Aubrey’s slightly sinister but ultimately functional ideas on hope. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

- The relationship between rage and creation: when there’s so much wrong with the world all you can do is scream

- Why taking action to change things matters - even if your actions won’t save everyone

- Women and anger: hoo boy, it’s a whole thing. 

- Why healing inside trauma is actually kind of… boring. 

- Connecting through the power of storytelling

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Aubrey Hirsch is the author of Why We Never Talk About Sugar, a collection of short stories, and This Will Be His Legacy, a flash fiction chapbook. Her stories, essays and comics have appeared widely in print and online in places like American Short Fiction, Vox, TIME, The New York Times, The Rumpus, The Toast, and in the New York Times bestselling anthology, Not That Bad. Her essay on trauma and surviving gun violence is a must read. Find it here.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Aubrey occasionally teaches comics for “non-artists.” Check her TW @aubreyhirsch for announcements. 

Aubrey publishes new comics and essays on Roxane Gay’s substack, The Audacity. 

Aubrey’s written on so many topics relevant to human life. Find a long list of awesome essays on her website, aubreyhirsch.com

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you look at social media with its reliance on meme-based psychology, you’d think that the Buddhist approach to life is to not let things get to you - that the true spiritual path helps you rise above such limited, unenlightened human feelings like grief, greed, and resentment. 

 

This week on It’s OK, Zen teacher Koshin Paley Ellison is here to tell you that your suffering deserves your attention. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

- How an experience of targeted violence shaped Koshin’s childhood, and what it’s taught him about the suffering of others

- Why it’s healthier to spend time in the “life is suffering” part of the 4 Noble Truths, rather than rushing to the other 3 as solutions

- How to work with the pain and the suffering in your own life, so that it doesn't fester and cause more harm

- Why going to the furniture store looking for milk is only going to lead to disappointment

- Koshin’s new book, Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest:

Sensei Koshin Paley Ellison is an author, Zen teacher, and Jungian psychotherapist who has devoted his life to the study and application of psychotherapy and Buddhism. Koshin co-founded the New York Zen Center for Contemplative Care, with his husband Chodo Robert Campbell, to transform the culture of care through contemplative practice by meeting illness, aging, and death with compassion and wisdom.

Koshin’s work has been featured in The New York Times, PBS, and CBS Sunday Morning among other media outlets. His newest book is Untangled: Walking the Eightfold Path to Clarity, Courage, and Compassion. Find him on IG @koshinpaleyellison

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Chodo and Koshin joined us in season one of It’s Ok that You’re Not OK. Listen to that episode here. 

 

Learn about the New York Zen Center’s contemplative care program at zencare.org

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

 

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the outside, veteran Jason Kander had everything going for him: successful political career, lovely family, the respect of his peers. But on the inside, he was struggling: nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts were constant companions.

Jason joins us to talk about his new book, Invisible Storm, and what it really takes to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. (Don’t let that ‘post traumatic growth’ turn you away from this episode! There are no shortcuts to happiness here.) 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

- Why most returning vets believe that getting help is great - for other people. 

- The concept of “stolen valor” and how it relates to treatment options for PTSD

- How Jason used shame as a way to give himself the illusion of control 

- What “redemptive heroism” is, and why there’s a much better way to manage PTSD

- Every trauma is valid trauma: avoiding the temptation of comparing emotional injury

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest:

Jason Kander joined the Army National Guard in 2005 after getting a law degree at Georgetown University. He deployed in 2006 to Afghanistan, where his mission was to assess the corruption levels of former Afghan warlords and government leaders. Ten years after serving in Afghanistan, Jason Kander was a rising star in the Democratic Party, exploring a presidential run. But outside of the political spotlight, he was racked by nightmares, depression and suicidal thoughts. His book, Invisible Storm, shares the story of his experience with PTSD, and his hopes for anyone who’s survived trauma. 

Jason is the president of the Veterans Community Project, a national nonprofit organization, and the host of Majority 54, one of the nation's most popular political podcasts. Follow him on social media @jasonkander

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

The book Jason mentioned is Tribe by Sebastian Junger

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr. Errol Pierre is a corporate executive, leader, mentor, and outspoken advocate for healthcare equity in the US and Haiti. HIs book, The Way Up, helps underrepresented individuals from all ethnic backgrounds achieve their professional goals and elevate their careers in today's workplace. 

 

What you probably don’t know is that grief - in one form or another - plays a part in every one of those roles. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• Why a book about climbing the corporate ladder gets the spotlight on a show about grief
• How little kid Errol’s delayed root canal influenced adult Errol’s entire career
• Building the equitable world from the ground up: Errol’s work in Haiti 
• Why making healthcare more accessible will prevent more grief (when it’s avoidable), and reduce suffering (when it’s unavoidable) 
• Navigating racism in the corporate world 

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

About our guest: 

Dr. Errol Pierre is the Senior Vice President of State Programs at a large non-profit health plan in New York. He provides leadership, mentorship, and guidance to professionals of color across various industries, ensuring the advancement of diverse professionals into leadership positions. He’s also fiercely committed to healthcare equity - building a world where systemic equity is built into the foundation of all new ventures. 

 

Follow Dr. Errol Pierre at @ErrolLPierre on most social platforms or visit errolpierre.com

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read Errol’s book - The Way Up: Climbing the Corporate Mountain as a Professional of Color

 

For more on grief in the workplace, read “The Burden of Bereavement: Grief is the latest challenge for employers in the coronavirus era” and “How to Talk to a Grieving Customer”

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nobody likes to talk about pet loss… but everybody wants to talk about pet loss. What a difficult scenario that is! Veterinary oncologist Dr. Renee Alsarraf, author of Sit, Stay, Heal, joins us to talk about grief, professionalism, and the importance of being human - on the job and off. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• The whole truth about loving - and losing - your pets
• The terrible advice Dr. Renee Alsarraf’s grad school teacher gave her (and why she refused to listen) 
• Why vets and other professionals should really NOT check their human emotions at the door
• When it’s time to welcome a new love into your life (human or otherwise)
• How Dr. Alsarraf’s experience with veterinary oncology did (and didn’t) prepare her for her own cancer diagnosis

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

About our guest: 

Dr. Renee Alsarraf is a veterinary oncologist, lecturer, and philanthropist. Her book, Sit, Stay, Heal, is a moving and uplifting memoir of an esteemed veterinary oncologist fighting to save her four-legged patients while making sense of her own unexpected cancer diagnosis.

 

Find Dr. Alsarraf on IG @reneealsarraf and learn more about her book at sitstayhealbook.com

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read Dr. Alsarraf’s book - Sit, Stay, Heal: What Dogs Can Teach Us about Living Well

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and 

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Can you hide in plain sight?

From trans beauty pageants in the Philippines, to the catwalks of New York City fashion week, to the Ted Talk mainstage – Filipina-American model Geena Rocero has lived an astounding life. This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the author of Horse Barbie: A Memoir shares what it costs to suppress your true self in order to find safety and success, and why joy is powerful medicine. 

Geena Rocero is a trans advocate, speaker, and author of the new book, Horse Barbie.

 

In this episode we cover: 

• Why do we have to talk about gender all the time anyway?
• How can parents support trans children? 
• The history of trans beauty pageants in the Philippines
• Why joy - and a sense of humor - are real survival tools

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

Related Episodes:

Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle

If I Survived, You Can Too! Author Emi Nietfeld on the Hollowness of the Transformation Narrative

Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling

About our guest:

Geena Rocero is a Filipina-American model, public speaker, author, and trans rights advocate. Ms. Rocero made history as the first trans woman ambassador for Miss Universe Nepal, and the first trans Asian Playboy Playmate of the Year. Her TED Talk, “Why I Must Come Out,” has been viewed over 3.7 million times. She’s an advisory board member of SeeHer, a global coalition working to increase representation and accurate portrayal of all women and girls in marketing, media, and entertainment. 

She’s spoken at the White House and United Nations, and has been featured on CNN, MSNBC, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, Vanity Fair, and Variety. Her book Horse Barbie: A Memoir was named one of the Best Memoirs of 2023 by Elle Magazine. Find her @geenarocero on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Watch Geena’s TED Talk “Why I Must Come Out”

 

Read Geena’s book - Horse Barbie: A Memoir 

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Have you ever put on a face mask, expecting it to solve all your mental health problems? 

That seems…unrealistic, but it’s what self-care marketing tells us: get your self-care right, and all your difficulties will evaporate.

This week on It’s OK, Dr. Pooja Lakshmin, author of Real Self-Care, breaks down what “self-care” actually means when we’re living in a complex, capitalistic world. It’s an exploration of grief, burnout, and exhaustion, and what it takes to care for yourself inside systems that repeatedly ignore their part in your suffering. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

• Why self-care doesn’t work
• How hope is different than optimism
• Does looking for your own answers mean you have to do things alone?
• Accepting help as a bid for connection
• How Dr. Lakshmin’s definition of boundaries can help you practice real self-care

 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

 

Follow the show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief

 

Related episodes:

Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly

 

Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body with Sarah Ramey.

About our guest:

Dr. Pooja Lakshmin MD is a psychiatrist, a clinical assistant professor at George Washington University School of Medicine, and the founder and CEO of Gemma, the women’s mental health community centering impact and equity. She has spent thousands of hours taking care of women struggling with burnout, despair, depression, and anxiety in her clinical practice. Her debut non-fiction book, Real Self-Care: A Transformative Program for Redefining Wellness (Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Baths Not Included), is available in e-book, hardcover, and audiobook narrated by Pooja.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

 

Additional Resources:

Read “Hope is Not a Thing to Have – It’s a Skill to Practice” at Oprah Daily

 

Read “How Society Has Turned Its Back on Mothers” at The New York Times

 

Read “Saying ‘No’ Is Self-Care for Parents” at The New York Times

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We’re in a massive climate crisis, but it’s hard to think about it, isn’t it? 

It’s a great temptation to shut our eyes to climate change. It’s overwhelming. This week on the show, climate activist and author Bill McKibben on facing the reality of the climate crisis, understanding what needs to change, and what you can do - not just to change the course of humanity and the planet, but to feel more hopeful and connected as this all unfolds. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

 

• Is halting climate change really dependent on personal recycling and whether we use plastic straws? 
• Is it okay to have intense emotional responses to wildfires, floods, and the inaction of those “in charge”? 
• How the boomer generation is using their experience and wealth to revisit the activism of their youth (and supporting younger activists at the same time)
• How talking about our fears and our ecological grief gives us common ground to fight for our future - and our present. 

We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

 

Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

For more on activism in the face of impossible odds listen to these related episodes: 

Women, Life, Freedom: Grief and Power In Iran, with Nazanin Nour

Wonder in an Age of Violence with Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger

About our guest:

Bill McKibben is an American environmentalist, author, and journalist who has written extensively on the impact of global warming. His books include The End of Nature, about climate change, and Falter: Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?, about the state of the environmental challenges facing humanity. 

Bill is a contributing writer to The New Yorker (read his latest piece here), and founder of Third Act, which organizes people over the age of sixty for progressive change.

 

About Megan: 

Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

Additional Resources:

Terry Tempest Williams’ book Refuge: An Unnatural History of Family and Place, and her recent NYT article on Utah’s great Salt Lake (gift link, no subscription needed)

 

Explore Joanna Macy’s work on the intersection of grief and activism at her website, or her books, including Coming Back to Life: The Updated Guide to the Work That Reconnects, World as Lover, World as Self, and Widening Circles: A Memoir

 

Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

 

Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

 

Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief

For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.