In this episode, John Kamm discusses China's trade relationship with the United States with Dui Hua directors Jeffrey Muir and Harold Furman, focusing on the evolution of China's trade status, previously known as Most Favored Nation (MFN), now referred to as Permanent Normal Trade Relations (PNTR). They made a good team. Jeff had long experience doing business in Hong Kong and China. Hal knew the ins and outs of dealing with Congress and the Executive Branch. Back in 1990, in the wake of the Tiananmen incident in China, the trio worked together to prepare Kamm's testimony to the U.S. Congress arguing against revoking China's MFN status. Since 1990, improved U.S.-China trade relations have provided the foundation for Dui Hua's work of compiling and submitting prisoner lists, but China's changed domestic political landscape has since degraded access resulting in less leverage on human rights issues. Tune in to learn about their first-hand experience and how changes over the past 25 years have affected the conversation.

Related articles for this podcast:

• China's trade status and PNTR in our July/August Digest newsletter
• About Dui Hua
• JKR: My First Testimony to Congress

"Say the names. Focus on individual prisoners." In this episode, host Erik Tharalsen introduces the Prisoner Information Project (PIP), an initiative launched by businessman-turned-activist John Kamm after the 1989 Tiananmen Incident. During his first testimony to Congress in support of Most Favored Nation (MFN) trade status for China, Kamm pledged to use all capital gained as a result of giving market access to China to advocate for political and religious prisoners, the PIP became part of that pledge. Kamm also discusses how this led to the founding of the Dui Hua Foundation and the important role of prisoner lists for human rights dialogue with China then and now.

Related articles for this podcast:

• Prisoner Information Project

• MFN Redux:

• JKR: My First Testimony to Congress