In this episode of Just Schools, Jon Eckert sits down with Dr. Jeffery Cooks, a Baylor EdD graduate and host of the upcoming 745 Podcast, to talk about bridging the gap between schools and communities.
Dr. Cooks shares his personal journey from corporate work to the classroom, the motivation behind earning his doctorate, and his desire to elevate every voice in the school ecosystem.
Mentioned:
745 Podcast
Set Apart: Calling a Worldly Church to a Godly Life by R. Kent Hughes
Jon Eckert:
Dr. Cooks, it's great to have you here today. Tell us a little bit about what you're excited about as you launch your profession to a whole new level from where you started in education.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Well, first, Dr. Echo, I want to thank you for even having me on. Well, I know we've talked about this in the past, so I'm excited to actually be doing this with you. One thing I'm excited about really is finishing this doctorate. I'm-
Jon Eckert:
That's real.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
... super excited about that because I do think it's very important to think ahead when you're doing this doctorate and how it's going to impact your career and others after you're finished. One way I've decided to do that is by the podcast that I'm getting started with, so excited about that.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and this doctorate, just for those of you listening, it's the Baylor K-12 Executive EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership. Jeff's been an amazing member of... What's your cohort number? Are you five?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Cohort five.
Jon Eckert:
Cohort five. Yeah, cohort five.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
[inaudible 00:01:05].
Jon Eckert:
We're starting to recruit cohort 10.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
That's crazy.
Jon Eckert:
Jeff's a great representative of Baylor. Love pouring into leaders like Dr. Cooks, and I think your experience... I think sometimes people think, "I'm not ready to do a doctorate. I'm maybe not even ready to do a master's degree," which you do have to do the master's degree then get into the doctoral work. What drew you into this? I mean, are you just a glutton for punishment? You love studying all the time and doing that on top of working? What led you educationally to think this is the right next step for you?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Well, when I graduated college, I had a friend of mine asked me if I was interested in teaching. It's probably the day after I graduated. I said, "No, it's not my thing. My wife's a teacher," but he told me that he wish he had known about Texas teachers. I looked into it, and I applied to it, and I got started with the internship out in Lufkin, Texas. Finished that, had an opportunity to actually work for Lufkin Middle School, but didn't pass that test the first time. I didn't know what I was doing, so I moved on and just started in corporate America, doing management in certain stores and stuff like that.
It got to a point where when my first child came, I needed another source of income, something more consistent. He was actually born with a heart defect, and so I needed a schedule that would allow me to not only work but take care of him and my family. That led into me being a substitute, then an interventionist, and then a teacher. I kind of had a natural, I guess you could say talent, I guess, for speaking with students and teaching content. I did bible study as well when I was in college and youth ministry, and so it kind of went hand in hand. Long story short, my assistant principal at the time, Asia Presswood, she motivated me to take this thing a step further. She made me a chair the second year, which was way out of my league at the time, and she pushed me to get my master's.
To that question of do I like pain, I guess I do, because once I finished that master's, I said, "You know what?" told my wife, "Maybe I'll get my doctorate." She was like, "I don't know about that one." From there, I decided to get my doctorate. I did some research and Baylor was a school that I always wanted to attend. Where I'm from, I'm from Dallas, so where I'm from, that's not a school necessarily that we go, and having that opportunity was awesome. That's kind of how I got here, a love for growth, found a love for students and teaching content.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Seeing you go through your dissertation process, it's a lot of work, and there are times where you wonder if you're going to make it. I think you even talked about the struggle with getting through with Dr. Gibson and how she helped pull you through, wouldn't let you quit.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Absolutely.
Jon Eckert:
That degree is as much a degree for your family as it is a symbol of the perseverance that it takes to get through, so if you feel called to do it, I think that doctoral degree opens up a whole world of possibilities, because you get years to pour into your profession, reading about, thinking about, and then working in cohorts with some amazing leaders from all over. I think your cohort is indicative of that, and there's a richness to it because there's joy in the struggle. I think knowing you, this isn't something I think based on... This is the same thing for me when I did my doctoral work. I would've never been like, "Oh, I'm going to do that," but it's like you feel called, it's the next step, and then when you're done, you're like, "Wow, I'm a different person because of the experiences that I've had." If you were to give two or three ways you feel like these last few years as you do this work, how has it changed you as a leader maybe? How are you different as a leader now than you were before?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Well, one is you see leadership from a different perspective. Baylor, this program did an excellent job in introducing us to superintendents and other leaders around the world. When you get to hear that feedback from them and how they have created this career for themselves and they're passionate, you understand more so what they go through, so you see things from a different lens, which helps you move through that academic space. That's one big thing that has impacted my leadership style. Another is seeing myself as a leader. I think when you move through this profession, sometimes you can kind of do it blindly and not really know the impact that you're having on people, and so I think it brings to light what are doing and how important it is and you develop this mission and vision for yourself and how it can impact others.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's a beautiful way to put it. As you move forward into this podcast, I'm assuming that's part of what you're trying to do, is trying to help elevate the profession, do the hard work in a way that's life-giving, so talk a little bit about what you hope to do with the podcast.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Right. The name of the podcast is 745 Podcast. It's a podcast that is attempting to bridge the gap between school culture and the community. We really want parents involved with this, and not only parents, we want custodian workers. We want the cafeteria workers. We want to make sure that we close that gap. There are a lot of moving pieces that are ignored in the school space, in the academic space, and we, for the most part, think about teachers, and administrators, and students, but we don't think about all the people that put this thing together. Whether you are a parent that's very active in your child's life or you're a parent that's lost, we want to cut out the excuses and say, "Hey, this is a place where you can not only learn but provide input," and hopefully, it impacts administrators and district leaders alike.
Jon Eckert:
I love that. Can you tell us a little bit about where you came up with the name 745 Podcast?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
That's crazy. Actually, it started off at 730. I was thinking more so of the time that we arrive to work. I'm in the elementary space, and so by 7:45, teachers should be teaching at this time. The announcements should pretty much be over. I also, if you noticed, didn't put AM or PM, because a lot of teachers stay late. They're in traffic after work, they're leaving around 6:00, 6:30, making it home, trying to get dinner ready in the next day, and grading papers. That 745 is kind of play on the times in which we arrive and maybe make it home.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, yes. That's a long 12 hours. But again, life-giving, and I constantly go back to that. Our job is not super well-paid and it's not always appreciated, but that work is life-giving, especially when you have the encouragement of leaders like you, coming along, and highlighting it, and elevating it, and bringing people into it. I love the idea that you're trying to bring in everyone that's part of the school community. That's a beautiful way to look at this. What do you see as the biggest challenge facing educators, parents, kids today? What do you see? Because obviously, you have this desire to bring in the school community, what's the big challenge or one of the big challenges that you see that needs to be addressed as quickly as possible?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
The fear of unknown. Some parents and staff members that I mentioned, some of them don't feel like they're smart enough to keep up with the teacher or that that's a teacher's job or the administrator's job. They're scared to put their input feeling like they might be rejected or that they're not held as equals. I did an interview yesterday just randomly in the store, and that'll be posted later. Now, mind you, this gentleman actually works in the school system in the maintenance department, so he sees things from a different perspective, but one thing he stated was that he sees that sometimes administrators and teachers are not very patient with children. Now, at what point does he get to say that?
You see what I'm saying? At what point does he get to say that without feeling like his job is on the line or that his kid would be treated differently in class? It's that fear of speaking up and saying things. You'll see the board meetings packed with those same parents. The same parents come and they voice their opinion, and the board says, "Okay, great. Thank you for your time. Your time's up," and then it kind of vanishes. But if parents feel like, "I can say this," or, "I can reach out and ask questions about how to handle this situation," you might build better relationships in the school.
Jon Eckert:
I love that you're thinking about it this way, because so often, when I talk to administrators, particularly they talk about being effective communicators, what they mean is they want to disseminate information effectively, and being an effective communicator is at least as much about listening. How do you invite that feedback? Because communication has to go both ways. When you're super busy and you have the tyranny of the urgent feeding into your 7:45 to 7:45 day, it's sometimes hard to make the space to listen. There are so many people that have insights into the lives of kids, particularly parents who want the best for their kids, and then you have teachers who want the best for their kids, and coaches, and custodians, and the office workers, the nurses, the counselors, the administrators. There's a lot of people that have a vested interest in the lives of kids.
How do we bring those voices together collectively in a way that those voices can be heard and then benefit the student? Because that's the goal of everything that we do. How do we benefit each student so they can become more of who they're created to be? I always feel that when I talk to you about kids, is there's a rich group of people supporting each kid. How do we do that well? How do you think you're going to get at your podcast? What's the way that you... Because that's a very broad audience. How are you going to bring those people into your audience?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
I think it's very important to not only speak about things that administrators talk about, but things that parents can relate to. That means that they're going to have to hear from other parents. I'm not saying that this is going to be an easy task by any means, because it's not, and I think if it was easy, I wouldn't be doing it. If it was something that was general and something that you could find every day, I wouldn't be doing it. It's really about hearing the different voices but not being partial and actually having topics that parents say, "Okay, I can see that."
I want the guy that just got off work going to the corner store to get whatever he needs for the end of the day to say, "Oh, I heard on his podcast that you could do this for your child, or you can download a report card like this, or you can get the test scores from their start test like this," or, "My baby has some symptoms that I've never seen before, I do need to get him tested." You just make it relatable and just be patient with the process, and hopefully, they'll hear it.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. No, that's so good. We usually do a lightning round toward the end. I've got I think about five questions I want to ask you right now. Let's start with the worst advice you've ever given or received.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
The worst advice I've ever received was not necessarily words. It was an idea. The idea that you have to catch the flow of the river and just let it take you wherever it takes you, that you have to have this many years of experience to do this or that you need to be in this position to try to reach a new goal. With this doctoral program, I was just getting into my specialist role. That, for some people, was like, "What are you doing, man? What are you doing?" Am I supposed to be doing this? I'm not going to lie to you and say that once I got into class, I didn't feel like I was less than at the time, because we had some hard heavy-hitters in the class. But at the time, it was something that I felt like I was breaking that chain of this is what I have to do in this order. It was more so of a feeling than the actual advice.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. That sentiment of staying in your lane, that's very prevalent in education where people feel like they're the imposter if they don't stay in this [inaudible 00:14:07].
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
I can hear you. I'm sorry.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, yeah. In education, people will be told, or it'll be kind of inferred, that they're to stay in their lane. That's one of the most damaging things we can do in education, because there's so much good work happening in the classroom, and we need to elevate that and learn from with people that are doing those hard things. I'm grateful that you did not stay in your lane. Even if it wasn't ever explicitly told to you, that is a message that feels like it comes down in education, that, "Hey, you're just a teacher." That completely robs us of the power that is in the profession that makes all others possible, so I love that you've leaned in and then modeled it. Now with the podcast and the ways you lead others, you want to elevate others in that, so great example. All right. Best advice you've either given or received?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Best advice I've ever been given. That's a good one, not going to lie to you. Be patient with others, especially as a leader. I mean, it sounds so simple, but you know, you have the experience, a lot of experience in this, and you know that there are times when your human nature wants to take over in how you respond to others. As a leader, you have to make sure that that is not the case. You have to make sure that you're genuine at the same time as being serious about whatever the topic is. That's very hard to do, especially day in and day out when there are so many different personalities that's coming your way. You have the teacher, you have the parent, you have the student, you have the boss, you have the district leaders, and then you just do not know which person you're going to get that day or in what order.
What's crazy is I think that my practice and being patient with people started in the corporate America space or the service space, when I did custodial work, when I worked the registers at the stores, or just customer service in general, because that's quite the same. The difference is with this is that you actually get to learn a person, and then that relationship built this comfort zone for others to say things they normally wouldn't say to you. If you flip that, each human being, each person has their own things they're dealing with at home, so now how do you manage a safe space in your head, in your heart, in your spirit, and not try to push somebody to feel a certain way and actually understand where they're coming from?
Being patient, I would say, is the greatest advice I received. That was actually from that same assistant principal that motivated me, because when I was... She told me this when I became team lead. I'm 24, and everybody on the team is 55, 53, 48. They're like, "Who's this little dude telling us what we need to do?" I mean, it blew my mind. I just thought we was going to work together, so you got to be patient.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I think Peter Drucker says, we need organized abandonment. So often in education, we will let go of someone or let go of an initiative out of impatience or just being overwhelmed, and so I think being really intentional as a leader of pouring into people, believing in them, listening to them, understanding their story, and then if it becomes evident that this person's not... You mentioned the custodian talking about educators in the building who were impatient with kids, if that doesn't change, then it may be time to help them find a different profession. At some point, you organize your abandonment. You're like, "Hey, this is now not going to work, so we need to move on because this person's not helpful to kids."
We can never give up on the kids, but there is a place sometimes where you do have to move on and your patience has to run out because that patience is harming kids by allowing that person to stay there. But I think so often in education, we get it wrong with the impatience on initiatives. Things could work if we stuck with them for two or three years. Instead, we stick with them for two or three months, and then we're either overwhelmed or we're impatient and we move on. I think that's a great word. Good advice there. All right. Best book you've either read or are reading, something that you're interested in that you think might be helpful to others?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
This book is by Charles Colson. It's called Set Apart: Calling a Worldly Church to a Godly Life. It's just basically what it means, to be distinct. I think that without that mindset in this field, you're not going to go far. This is a book that I'm just getting started on, so I'm excited to read this, but I've taken the principles of it and saying that how can not only I could be set apart in my spiritual life, but how can I be set apart in this space? Because every great thing happened from somebody doing something different.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. No, that's great. Good word there. One word that you would use to describe education right now in the United States. What would be one word?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Political.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. Yeah. No, that's real. It's capital Politics and lowercase politics. Politics by definition is competition for scarce resources, and in Texas right now, that definitely feels real, and then you've got the national politics and then international politics. I mean, you've got layer upon layer of that. Yeah. In that context, what makes you most hopeful as you look ahead to what educators and communities are doing to support kids?
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
I think that since COVID, we've seen a huge deal with the certified teachers, the quality of teachers, and I think that those problems have highlighted where we need to go. We've tried to sit in that space of uncertified teachers and associate teachers, what we call them, and then we see that that doesn't work very well, not with all but a lot, quite a few, and now we're getting back to getting highly-qualified teachers. I think that a lot of administrators slid into the space of leadership through COVID. They shouldn't be administrators. It's not that they can't be one, but maybe they got into it too fast. I'm hopeful at this point that we are getting back to more so for backup, lack of a better word, old school, "Can you teach this? If you can't, we need to go with someone else, because if we do not do that, we're not prepping our students for success."
Jon Eckert:
That's a good word to end on, and so be listening for and looking for the release of the 745 Podcast. Dr. Jeff Cooks, thanks for your time. Thanks for all you do for kids.
Dr. Jeff Cooks:
Thank you. Yeah, all right.
