Joy Over Happiness

Jon Eckert:

All right, so welcome David. It's great to be able to talk to you about your new book, Everyday Christian Teaching: A Guide to Practicing Faith in the Classroom. So I just got it yesterday, so appreciate that. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what brought you to writing this book. I mean, you've obviously written a lot of things.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

What brought you to this one right now?

David Smith:

Yeah. It was two experiences that really sparked the idea for this book. One, was just that the last book on Christian Teaching had circulated quite widely and a lot of schools had used it in professional development. And a couple of school leaders said to me, "Okay, we've read on Christian teaching, we believe you that this is a thing. We're on board, you've persuaded us. Now, how do we learn how to do this on a regular basis? We are kind of convinced of the concept, but how do we internalize this?"

And then I had a slightly more detailed version of the same conversation when I was doing like an online seminar for Trinity Western University for some of their faculty. And at the end of, I gave a presentation about some of the old Christian Teaching staff and some different ways of connecting faith and teaching. And one of the faculty said to me at the end, "I go to a church, have done for years and years and years. I teach at a Christian university, have done for years and years and years, and I would never have made the connections between the two that you just made. How do I learn to think like that?"

And I thought, it's another version of the same question. How do I learn to more instinctively think in a way that connects faith and teaching. Especially in a culture where so many of us have learned so deeply to keep those things apart, and that teaching is about tips and tricks and getting it done. And faith, it's about church and theology and so on, and it feels like we don't always have a great set of mental muscles for moving fluidly backwards and forwards between those two. So that just seemed like a great question, like how do you... Like don't try and persuade me of a philosophical position, but teach, like how do I learn to think about this on a regular basis? So that's what I was trying to address in the book, is-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

How to learn to think.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and the intro is, Invitation to Wisdom, which I love, especially right now as we look at everything that artificial intelligence can do, all the things that can be offloaded to different kinds of tools. We have more tools to help people learn than we've ever had. And it also feels like deep, meaningful learning grounded in something more than just tips and tricks is increasingly obfuscated. And so I love this very human invitation to wisdom. So talk about why you started there.

David Smith:

Well, it's partly Comenius' fault, 'cause he's my hero. For those who are new to Comenius, a 17th century major Christian education thinker, and he's got this textbook called The Orbis Pictus, the World in Pictures. And it's probably the most famous textbook in the history of schooling. It went through 250 editions, close to over a couple of hundred years. And the very first line of the book is, "Come child, learn wisdom." And I just thought that's a pretty interesting way to start a school textbook, that's not how most of our textbooks start these days, right. And so I sort of borrowed that as the start of this book. And his book starts with this image of a road that we're walking along as we learn wisdom and the Bible, wisdom's often spoken of in terms of a path or a way. It's something you walk in, wisdom's not just something you get by getting the diagram straight in your head, or getting the doctrines all lined up, or knowing the sentences in the right order.

Wisdom's something you have to learn how to walk in and walking is something that takes place over time and you kind of sway to the right and the left and it's got a rhythm to it. And again, that's sort of what I was going for with the book. So this book doesn't start with the philosophical concepts or the theology or the reasons why we need to do integration of faith and learning or that kind of top-down. It really starts with the rhythms of the classroom and how you start the class, what things you repeat, how you use silences, how you end the class, how you frame things. Those things that are happening to us every single day if we are educators, as we sort of walk through this life in the classroom.

And again, if we're going to learn to think in a way that habitually connects faith and learning, it has to happen in that context. It can't just be when we're sitting in the great lecture with some great Christian thinker who tells us how the world fits together. It's got to be while I'm in class, while I'm in motion, while I'm moving. So the Comenius image seemed to help me capture a little bit of that, that we are walking along a road, we're trying to learn wisdom, we're trying to walk better, we are not just trying to have better theories or better solutions or better fixes. We're trying to learn to walk in a way that's got a certain kind of rhythm to it, a certain cadence.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. And I love that you begin and end with wisdom. So when you get to the close, before you finish it out, you get back to the purpose. And throughout the book you have what looked like woodcuts from your hero and it's a cool through line throughout the book. So learning to be wise, that's really what we want from education, is how to learn to be wise and, so appreciate that.

And then, just the way you've broken the book down, it does really, and I think you said it even before we jumped on, it starts from the bottom up. Like what does this-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Look like in the classroom? And then where is the wisdom in that? Where is the humanness in that? Where do we see our creator in that process? So-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Can you talk a little bit how you came to that bottom up piece? Because I think a lot of times philosophers and people that are in the academy get accused of starting top down-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Like, "You should do it this way." But I think what you're saying is here, this is how it is done, and then-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Here's the wisdom in that. Can you speak a little bit about that?

David Smith:

Yeah. Oh, I could speak for hours about that, because there's something in this that's been kind of motivating everything I've done for 30 years, has been trying to push on that very thing, because. And I think a lot of it goes back to, I didn't grow up Christian, I became Christian as an adult. And then a couple of years after I became Christian, I became a teacher and then started figuring out how those two sort of connected with each other. So I started reading the Christian books and the philosophies and the theologies and going to conferences and listening to people. And I thrive on that stuff, I mean, I love a good philosophy book. I've got no objection to people writing great philosophy books.

But I also find that sometimes, as a classroom teacher and I was a language teacher, I wasn't like a religion teacher or even a history teacher where we could talk about big ideas in class. I was teaching languages, I was doing this very nuts and boltsy kind of thing. And I just found that sometime, even when I'd read the book on what a Christian vision of knowledge is or of the world or whatever, that there was still this gap of like, yeah, but what do I do on Tuesday morning with my twelve-year-olds?

And there's a moment I sometimes share with my students, and I remember, my very first semester in the classroom I was doing my student teaching and total newbie, no skills, and I made the rookie mistake of standing writing on the whiteboard for too long. I think it was a blackboard at the time, actually, writing on the blackboard for too long with my back turned to the class. And I turned around and a student in the front row had removed almost all of his clothes and was sitting there in his underwear, apparently just to see what I would do. And I just had this moment of like, they didn't tell me about this in teacher ed, just that the classroom is like the Wild West. The classroom is this place where very unpredictable, angular stuff happens and often the theory is, it's a thousand foot.

So I've always been fascinated in this middle space, of how do you avoid, either ending up reading a philosophy book that's at a thousand feet and it might be brilliant and it might be inspiring, but you're still not quite sure what to do on Tuesday morning. But I also don't want to end up in the other end of the scale, and there's lots of this out there, which is the, like, 50 tips and tricks to get you through your week in the classroom stuff which is... Sometimes you get some good ideas out of that, but it's also kind of brainless in terms of lacking like a coherent reason why we should choose these tips and tricks. It's just like this big bag full of stuff and you're just going to pick stuff out that looks like it works, but there's no coherence to it.

So for a long, long time I've been fascinated with how do we try to describe that middle space, where you want to do stuff that works, you want to actually live in the classroom, you want to actually teach, you want to actually help students. But you want to do it in a coherent way that's in touch with your beliefs and your values and your commitments and the way the world fits together. And that, it feels like a difficult but the most interesting space. And so much of our literature seems to drift off to one end or the other of that, like it's either philosophy of education, or else it's a hundred tips and tricks for teachers and how to rescue your classroom kind of stuff.

Jon Eckert:

Well, I want to go deeper into that idea and a couple things from the book, but you have to tell me, what did you do with the kid that's sitting there in his underwear?

David Smith:

It's actually one of those rare occasions where I think I probably did the right thing without having a lot of forethought.

Jon Eckert:

Okay.

David Smith:

I actually just laughed at him and invited him to go outside and put his clothes back on and then join us again and then carried on with the class.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

And therefore, I think deflated his attempt to-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Capture everybody's attention for the next 15 minutes and make me look really stupid, so. Which I think was probably the right response, I think he was kind of-

Jon Eckert:

Right.

David Smith:

Hoping that I would sort of go ballistic or something, but-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

I just sort of basically said, "That's really funny. Now go put your clothes back on."

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. Well done. Well done.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

A novice win.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

So one of the things, I just was having a conversation with the head of school at a really great school and they're talking about how they integrate their academic success. They've been very successful based on test scores and everything, they've got great scores K through 12, and they're actually a school that's funded by vouchers, so it's an interesting model, in Milwaukee. And so they've been doing this for a long time. So they have a faith-based component to it, but they're also measured by state tests, so it's kind of-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

An interesting-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Place to look at. And they're like, "We know we've got to get better on our faith integrations, we want to work on our K through 12 Bible curriculum, that's one of our strands. And this other strand is on improving academics." And my response was, those two things have to go hand in hand.

David Smith:

Right, right.

Jon Eckert:

Because you've got to have that integration about why do we do this well? We do this as a reflection of what our creator's given. It's all got to be woven in there. Have you seen schools that do that well? And what is a hallmark of that? So you've laid out all these great ideas here.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Have you seen schools where that's happening really well right now?

David Smith:

Yeah, there are schools here and obviously there's a lot of schools I don't know, so I'm sure there are schools-

Jon Eckert:

Right.

David Smith:

Out there that are doing brilliantly, that are just not ones-

Jon Eckert:

Right.

David Smith:

I happened to have visited. But the schools that I've visited that seem to be doing really well at this, seem to more often be schools that have really set aside intentional time to think about it together. That's the one simple thing I would put my finger on, it's the schools that have got time set aside each week for a professional learning community, where they're actually talking about how to integrate their values with their teaching and they're not just doing admin things or curriculum things or whatever. So I think this is very dependent on being able to build a reflective community where you can talk to each other about how your values are infusing your teaching and learning choices.

Something I've been suggesting to schools for a while, is like why don't you take one of your professional development days each year and just cancel it and just tell your teachers to go to the park or whatever, but then say, and now you owe me six hours. And what you're going to do with that, is you're going to get together with three of your colleagues and for six months you're going to meet one hour a month at the local coffee shop with a nice pastry and a nice drink. And you're just going to talk about three things, what was the best thing that happened in my classroom in the last month where things really felt integrated? And what was the worst thing that happened in my classroom last month? And what's one thing I want to change in the next month? And just talk about those three things for an hour. And how much learning might you get out of that in terms of questioning your own practices and moving them forward?

So to me, it's less about getting the perfect model and more about, can you build the kind of community where you question what you're doing together and can then start to make adjustments? And you can be constantly asking, why do we do it this way? Is it just because we did it that way last year? And how does this actually reflect what we say we're about on the mission statement?

I mean, if I can throw in an example here, interrupt me if I talk for too long. But to throw in an example that's in the book, is a perfect example of this kind of, again, finding this middle space and questioning things. I was having breakfast a few years ago with some teachers at my daughter's school when she was in high school. And I was just venting, I wasn't even trying to be constructive, I was just complaining about the general state of the world.

And what I was complaining about was that I'd noticed that during the vacations we got our daughter back, that she was articulate and she shared her life with us and we talked about things. And as soon as the semester started, it was down to monosyllables, and it wasn't because we had a bad relationship, it's just because she was tired all the time. And because school was colonizing her every waking hour, she would get up at 6:30 in the morning, to be on a bus by 7:20, to be in school by quarter to eight. We get on another bus at something after three and get home by four-something, and then we'd have supper together at five. Wasn't always our most brilliant hour as a family because my daughter just had long tiring days, and then she'd have four hours of homework.

And what had struck me was that the homework was always designed to be done alone. And so she would disappear to her room with a pile of books and a laptop and the only role for me as a parent, was to either nag her to get it done or tell her to quit and go to bed. And after we had this conversation over breakfast, and I just complained about this, the teachers who'd been at that breakfast started surprising me. So a week later, she turned up in the family room one night at eight o'clock and she said, "Do you guys have some time, because I've got this weird homework from my religion teacher? I've got to talk to you for half an hour about whether you grew up Christian, or became Christian, or how you relate to all of that, because we're going to talk about it in religion class tomorrow, and you've got to sign this piece of paper to say that we talked about it for half an hour."

And then another teacher sent home a homework where we had to choose a TV show and watch it together and then discuss what its value system was, and whether we thought this was a fruitful way to spend our time and they were going to discuss this in the media studies class. And there was a whole string of these from different teachers.

But one of the things that struck me about this, was that this was a school whose official philosophy was that God has given primary responsibility for children to their parents, and the Christian school comes alongside parents to help them raise their children in a Godly way. And yet as a parent, the only role I was being given was to nag about homework and to sell food at sports games. And until this point, I wasn't being invited into the learning process, and what's more, the school was occupying, not only the whole day but the whole evening with tasks that the student was designed to do on their own. And as soon as we started asking this question, "Well, could you design homework activities that actually strengthen community and actually build relationships between people?" Suddenly you've got something that is a little more in tune with what the school says it's official philosophy is.

My daughter said she learned more from them from the standard fill out a worksheet kind of homeworks. So it was actually beneficial for learning.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

And it didn't necessarily involve throwing a Bible verse on all the worksheets. This is just more about trying to actually get the practices to line up with the values. So that's the kind of thing I'm sort of constantly fishing for, because we all think we know what homework is supposed to look like, so we all just keep doing what we think homework is. But maybe sometimes it doesn't look like that.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and I think that notion about homework is shifting significantly post-covid and what teachers actually assume students are doing on their own. Because I think the assumption is, that has been, that they're doing it on their own, I think that's a pretty false assumption now.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

That they would be doing anything on their own if you consider the tools that are available to them to get rote homework done. The thing I love about your example, is that homework assignment cannot be offloaded to ChatGPT, or if it was-

David Smith:

Right.

Jon Eckert:

It'd be, probably somewhat comical how ChatGPT might answer that question about how you came to faith and where your family, you know.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

So I think there is a benefit to that kind of homework and building community, because again, I think even with homework now, we need to lean into the humanness of what we do. Because there are a lot of other tools for getting assignments done and not always crediting the source of that assignment-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Whether that's a friend, Photomath or some type of artificial intelligence tool. So I think if we're not rethinking homework right now, we're really sticking our head in the sand.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Because I don't think students need four hours to do homework anymore, I think they're way more efficient.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Because they divide and conquer and offload to other things, so if you're not giving a meaningful homework assignment that is not able to just be done by something else, that's a problem. What I also loved about your example, and this is from page 76 in your book, it really gets into hospitality and what that looks like. And so it's asking students to be hospitable and then asking families to be hospitable. And you have this great separation here that, I'm just going to read this.

"The call to tolerance asked me to put up with your differences in exchange for you being willing to put up with mine. A Christian frame asks for more, extending the idea of love of neighbor to include strangers and even enemies." And so I do think as Christians, as educators, we have a really high call, that tolerance isn't even close to what Christ requires of us. And so-

David Smith:

Right.

Jon Eckert:

Welcoming students into that and helping them welcome others in it, that's a really high call. So can you talk a little about, this is from your framing sections, I thought that was a perfect place for it.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Can you talk some about that?

David Smith:

Yeah, I think there's more than one Christian idea that can become a framing device in education, and one that I've been thinking about for a long time is hospitality. There is this theme in scripture, from start to finish, about hospitality to strangers. And it appears in all the important places, it's in the law, it's in the gospels, it's in the prophets, it's in the epistles, it's everywhere. So there's also quite a long history of thinking about schools in terms of hospitality, so when you start thinking about that in curricular terms, what does a hospitable classroom look like? How do students experience the classroom?

So the way I started one of my classes this semester, and I talked about this in the book as well, is I actually started the class with us all sitting around in a big circle. And I asked each student to, I asked them to pair up and introduce themselves to each other and share two pieces of information that they were willing to be made public. And then I asked each person to introduce their partner to the group. And as we went around the group, we tried to memorize all the information, so we stopped after every second or third person and said, "And what was her name and what was her cat called?" right, and so on. So it's a real simple thing. And then I had students journal about it, and I've done this for a few years now.

And first, I think there's an interesting difference between coming to a classroom and having to introduce yourself and having somebody else introduce you-

Jon Eckert:

Right.

David Smith:

Having somebody speak up for you in the first five minutes of class. And then, rather than going around the class and doing the introductions and by the end you can't actually remember any of it, because 40 pieces of random information just went through your short-term memory. The fact that we're actually focusing on remembering things about each other, my students have written quite eloquently about, in fact, I was fascinated just reading the journals over the weekend. One of them said, "Teachers often say at the start of the semester, "We care about you, we are here to help you," but usually I don't believe them. I think it's just something teachers are supposed to say at the start of the semester. But this activity made me believe that you actually cared that we were there, because the information about ourselves actually mattered for the start of the learning."

And it's not like I think that's the way every class has to start, there are different disciplines and contexts and so on. But again, it's how do we find these moves that actually create a welcome within the classroom and you then push it further, how is the classroom welcoming to voices from beyond the classroom? So whose pictures do we show? Whose stories do we tell? And then how do we enable students to go out beyond the classroom? If I give my student a homework where they have to go to interview someone, how do I help them to be a good interviewer, to ask good questions, to not roll their eyes when the person says something they disagree with, to show in their body language that they're interested in what somebody has to say? Suddenly you're into a whole new set of skills that you don't get if the homework is fill out a worksheet.

So there's a whole continuum here in terms of, hospitality is a very rich way of thinking about lots of different facets of schooling, from just basic classroom relationships, to curriculum content, to what kind of skills we're trying to equip our students with. And tolerance is not nearly enough, tolerance just means I'm willing to not kill you.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, yeah. No, it's a great example. We do some similar things in the, I teach a leadership capstone class, it's the only class I get to teach to undergrads. And I just had lunch last week with one of my students from last semester, who has been through a lot, really tough life as an atheist. When you dig in, you realize where a lot of the hurt is. And so at the end of the semester, I give each kid a book and I inscribe something in the front to encourage them where I've seen them grow, what I hope for them, how I'm praying for them. And I'd given this class, All Prodigal God, by Tim Keller. And it was interesting, when we sat down, she read it over break, and so she wanted to gather and talk about it at lunch. And the book is the story of the Prodigal Son, but it's really, God is the center of the story is a reckless spendthrift, so that's why it's Prodigal God. And it's a beautiful story.

She actually said, in this way that I find having atheists in class to be unbelievably interesting to creating a different dynamic in the class. She was wise enough to identify herself as the elder brother in that, so not only was she not tolerating Christians on campus, she was looking down on them as being less than, because of how she felt like they made her feel and instead, she had become the older brother in it. And she articulated that at lunch, and I was like, the wisdom that she shared and the hospitality that she displayed by, A, reading a book that I gave her that's explicitly Christian.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

And then B, wanting to have lunch and talk about it. I mean, what a gift that is from a student to an educator to be able to have that, and then to have that all throughout the semester in class, 'cause we dealt with a lot of really hard things. And so I think that's a beautiful piece, and I love this, you say this on 113, which relates to, I think, both of those last two examples. It's about hopes and tasks, and I thought this was really good. "Instead of just giving a reading assignment, we could devote the same kind of reflection to tasks focused on other skills such as writing research or artistic creation, with the idea that we are trying to," this is the next sentence down a little bit. "A carefully articulated task becomes a chance to remind ourselves of who we are trying to become, as we read."

And so if we started thinking that way and curating our assignments that way, I think that would fundamentally shift how we assign work in class.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Is there another example that you have where that's been really successful for you?

David Smith:

Yeah, I mean, just yesterday in class, I got the most nods around the room that I've had in a while, from students just going, "Oh, yeah. When we started talking about how there's something about school that if you're not really, really careful, slowly teaches you that the point of doing the assignment is to get the assignment done. And that in the end, what the teacher really cares about is that you get the assignment done, because what you're going to be penalized for is not failing to grow, it's not turning it in at 3 P.M, and it's not having written 250 words, or not having got to page 27. So a lot of the messaging that we give to students when we give out assignments, it's often like the last two minutes of class and we're already in a hurry, and it's like, "Make sure you read chapter two by tomorrow," right.

So the strongest verbal message is, what I really care about is quantity, deadlines, getting it done, getting it turned in. And so I also find that what my students most often come and apologize to me about, is, "Oh, I didn't quite manage to get to the last three pages today," or, "I need to turn it in 30 minutes late, is that okay?" And a big part of me is going like, "Why would I care if you turn it in 30 minutes late? Like the world's not going to stop turning." So that means you're a good student being conscientious, the fact that you still want to get it in within 30 minutes. But what they're not coming to me and saying, is, "I started reading this and I didn't get through it because it was really challenging me and I had to go and think about it." Or, "I tried to get through it, but I didn't quite understand it. Can you help me figure out how to apply this?"

And so, again, this is a big mountain to climb, but how do you start to shift the message from, school is about getting stuff done, to school is about growing and learning. And I think a real simple way to run at that is by being explicit about assignments.

So if I give you something to read, is the message, "Read to page 27 by tomorrow?" Or is the message, "I'd like you to read to page 27, and when you get to page 22, you're going to find a paragraph there that's kind of a little dense, but it's a really core paragraph in this chapter, and we're going to need talk about it together tomorrow, because I've read this chapter eight times and I'm still trying to live out this paragraph and I'm not sure I'm there yet, so I need you to think about it with me. So when you get to that paragraph, stop, read it three times, then go find a friend and read it to them and see what they think. And if that means you only get to page 26, I can live with that, but this paragraph, right. And then see if you can think of some ways that you would live differently tomorrow if this were true."

And I'm just making this up as I go along-

Jon Eckert:

[inaudible 00:27:12].

David Smith:

But imagine that as a homework assignment, compared to the usual kind of, "Read to page 27, answer the first three questions, turn them in at 4:37 P.M. on Moodle." And it's all about messaging, and so if I could do that consistently, is there a chance that I could get more of my students believing that in the end, what I really care about is that something changed, that some learning happened. And not just that we all managed to click in the right place on the right day. Which, frankly, is the least of my worries, so.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Because even when you emphasize that, it doesn't happen anyway, so.

Jon Eckert:

Yes, no, I want to give that a giant amen. I mean, my classes are always designed, I take the best 25 authors, I've read their best article or their best chapter from their best book, and I have curated that as like, this is what we're going to focus on today. And I love that even focusing them further on the paragraph and going back to the example I just gave you from the student who I gave the book at the end of the semester. Like that's not an assignment, that's a, "Hey, I am grateful for you. This is my last, kind of bringing closure to class and here's this." And then it's, I may never see that student again, we may never have another conversation.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

But when you do, that's a much richer conversation, because it wasn't compulsory, it wasn't about compliance, it wasn't about getting something done, so I love that. I love that point. The last thing we always do, is we do a quick lightning round, and with all the years of experience you have, I got to imagine you've got some good answers. I just have four questions. The first one is, and you can do in whatever order you want, these first two. Best advice you've ever given or received as an educator and worst advice you've ever given or received as an educator? Start there.

David Smith:

Best advice, never talk to a child without eye contact.

Jon Eckert:

That's good.

David Smith:

That was the best piece of parenting advice I was ever given, actually.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. That's good.

David Smith:

I think it's really easy for adults to talk at young people-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Rather than, to young people. And something I said in, at least once in a previous book is, I think teaching is something you do with people, not something you do to people. My students are not objects that I'm trying to hit with something, and if I can't establish communication, that we're actually human beings looking at each other and we're trying to figure something out here, then it's probably not going to go as well as it could. If I just kind of broadcast over the top of the assembled heads, that's not going to go well.

Jon Eckert:

Just watch a great kindergarten teacher, they're always down on a knee-

David Smith:

That's good.

Jon Eckert:

Eye to eye with kids, yeah.

David Smith:

Right. Well, I often find, it's not just kindergarten, university, I often find myself down on a knee by a table, 'cause that's where you should be, right.

Jon Eckert:

You should be, you just see it far less. I totally agree.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

No, but yes.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

That is good.

David Smith:

So-

Jon Eckert:

Worst advice?

David Smith:

And then worst advice. Worst advice I've been given, don't smile till Christmas.

Jon Eckert:

Oh yeah. Classic.

David Smith:

It's one of our old chestnuts. Yeah, it's funny, when I first started teaching, my early teaching was in some urban environments and I found it very difficult. And I did not have great classroom management skills when I started and I struggled, I had some unruly classrooms. But one of the things I also learned about myself was that I couldn't do the Policeman act convincingly, it's just not in my personality to look mad-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

With students. Because I'm not actually very often mad with students, I just find classrooms fascinating.

Jon Eckert:

Even when they derobe. Yeah.

David Smith:

Yeah. And so, a few times early on, if I tried to pretend to be mad with students, then they just laughed at me, because it just wasn't convincing. So I had to gradually find other strategies, which had a lot to do with just investing lots of time in relationship building and trying to make the learning meaningful, and again, the one-on-one contact. And so the sort of be mean until they know you mean it thing, has just never ever worked for me.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Maybe there are people for whom it works, but even then, I'm just not convinced that an ethic of be unpleasant to people until they get on board is a great way to go.

Jon Eckert:

I'm pretty convinced that's not a great way, which I think you're being kinder than I am. I don't think that's an effective way to manage people, especially not in 2025. I don't think that's a-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Ethic that's going to work. Okay, next thing, best book you've read in the last year related to education?

David Smith:

Oh my, read so many books recently and some of them were really, really specialized.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. Or pick one of your top five.

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Best book that I've just read. Well, you know what, I'm going to do the really embarrassing thing here, I really enjoyed your book. I read your book just recently-

Jon Eckert:

Oh.

David Smith:

Just Teaching by Jon Eckert

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Is something that I've been getting ideas out of for my own classroom, and that's always a win. So that was a really great one. And another reason I have for picking that out is, at the moment I'm working up to a big research project on Comenius. So I'm reading a lot of-

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

Books about Comenius at the moment, and some of them are really great.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

David Smith:

But they're in German and they're really specialized, so.

Jon Eckert:

That is specialized.

David Smith:

But-

Jon Eckert:

That is specialized.

David Smith:

In terms of books that are just about the classroom, I did enjoy your book, Just Teaching.

Jon Eckert:

Okay.

David Smith:

And, yeah, another one I just read the other day, I just did a podcast the other day with Alan Bandstra, who's a teacher from Iowa, and he's got one called, Solutions That Heal-

Jon Eckert:

Okay.

David Smith:

Talk about infectious behavior in classrooms. And it's a self-published book, it's just a teacher who wanted to write about the things that are going on in his classroom, and I found it quite winsome.

Jon Eckert:

No, that's good.

David Smith:

[inaudible 00:32:43]. So, yeah.

Jon Eckert:

That's good. The funny thing is, whenever I ask that question about best book, I always have my pen ready to write it down. And as you're sharing that, I'm mindlessly, I literally wrote down, "Just Teaching," on my thing. I was like, okay.

David Smith:

so you can look it up later and see if it's any good, yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Right. I'll see, I'll check. But that's very kind. Last question, what makes you most hopeful as you look at schools right now?

David Smith:

It's funny, I don't draw hope from looking at institutions really, so it's not so much looking at schools. What always makes me hopeful is, like every student who is in my classroom right now is a human being who is spending a lot of money to learn how to help other people learn. And I just find my students are sometimes idealistic to a fault, there's some things that will get more complicated when they get into the classroom, but they are students who deeply want to do good for their learners. And I'm glad every semester, that I've just spent a semester with another 20, 30 young people who want to be teachers and who want to find a humane way of doing that and a faith informed way of doing that, in a way that does good in the world.

And that's among my students. But I'm going away on a retreat as part of a research project this weekend, with five teachers from area schools. Where we're actually going to talk about hope for the whole weekend and how we're going to address that in schools. And again, just seeing their eagerness to be part of that project and to want to give up their weekend to talk about how we teach for hope in schools. So all over, when I do professional development, I just keep running into teachers who haven't given up yet and who are trying to do right by their students, do right by their faith, find a more true and wholesome way of doing things. And as long as there's a good subset of people who are doing that, then there's still a chance that it can get better.

Jon Eckert:

That's good, that's good. Good place to find hope. Well, hey, thank you for your work, really appreciate Everyday Christian Teaching. Super helpful, good follow up on Christian Teaching-

David Smith:

Thank you.

Jon Eckert:

Also, super helpful. Oh, and excited for the platform you're building out, we didn't even talk about that. But there's a platform that's going to go with all of this. Do you want to just say something to wrap up-

David Smith:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

And give people a sense of where to find that?

David Smith:

Yeah. I'll try to say this quickly. Where to find it, there's a website, everydaychristianteaching.com. It already exists, if you go there right now, you'll find a description of what's coming, but there's no actual resources there yet. We are hoping to have the first resources up there by March, we are building it frantically right now. But what it's going to be is really an extension of the idea that this book is about, how do you learn how to do this regularly, not just how do you have this one blinding moment of revelation, but how do you make this part of a routine? So we're building professional development resources that help to create community conversations around this.

So there are some resources where you can just download everything you need to run a PD day. There's others where you can download everything you need to run a seven week or seven month whole school conversation around it. There's going to be self guided resources, so if there's just one of you or if there's a small group of you that want to do it at your own pace, there's going to be versions like that. And there's some graduate credit bearing options. And we're building these around specific topics like community or hospitality or Shalom, and we're sort of building out resources for each of those. Like I say, we're furiously working on finalizing details on some of these, and we've been piloting them out in schools and getting really good feedback. And so we hope to have the first ones available on there and we're trying to make it very affordable as well. First stuff should be up sometime in March at the latest, and yeah, go there and take a look and then keep coming back to see what we've added over time.

Jon Eckert:

No, that's great. Thank you for that. Appreciate your work. Thanks for being with us.

David Smith:

Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for the invite.

Jon Eckert:

Joel, it's great to have you in the podcast studio today. We just finished a great conference yesterday where you facilitated a panel. But you got to this point in your career through some interesting ways, because you're a great athlete... Weren't sure you were going to be an educator.

Joel:

Correct.

Jon Eckert:

I don't even know if that was ever on your radar. But talk to us about how you got where you're at today.

Joel:

Yeah. Well, first, thanks for having me. Greatly appreciate the time to sit and talk about these things. Well, in a nutshell, I did not see myself in education at all. I thought I was going to be a firefighter. I did not like school. I was a kid who stayed back in elementary school; very academically defeated. Didn't feel I had anything to give to education. But my parents being who they are, I was heavy in sports, they said, "Hey, you got to be in school if you're going to play sports. And if you're not going to do well in school, you're not playing sports." Long story short, I tolerated school for as long as I could because I really wanted to play sports.

And so long story short, by God's grace, was blessed enough to go earn a scholarship, play at Boston College where my dad went, my older brother went as well, and really sitting back and saying, "Hey, if I don't go pro, I'll go ahead and be a firefighter. It's one thing I don't really have to do additional school for, and I can serve my community." Always wanted to serve people in some capacity. Just leave my thumbprint on the world, somehow, some way.

As it were, it was one of those things I was thinking heavily about. The professional realms, that didn't work, and so I had to get a job quick. I was freshly married to my wife, and the only thing that made sense to me was education. It was either sports or education. I get into education at a Christian school early on and fell in love with the kids. I love kids. You ask me to this day, I love kids. I love just little kids that are just fresh, innocent, and just so full of life. Love that.

Jon Eckert:

What level did you get a job at?

Joel:

I was ninth grade.

Jon Eckert:

Okay. All right. Very good.

Joel:

Ninth graders are a different breed. They're knuckleheads, but funny kids. I learned so much about myself just interacting with them. And so next thing you know, my mentor at the time said, "Hey, listen, I just want to let you know most educators leave in three years. They're going to leave in three years, and I don't want that to be for you." And so my competitiveness kicked in and say, "I will not be that. I'll stay at least three years." Three years turned into five, five, 10, 10 to 14. And I was at that school for 14 years. And in that time, being surrounded by sports, I coached three sports, being around athletes, being around coaches, and being around teachers, that just poured into me, it was just something I was like, "Okay, I can do this long-term." And so here I am in leadership. I'm finishing up on my 20th year in education.

Jon Eckert:

Wow. Wow. Well, we're grateful that you have. You've been a great partner to the Center for School Leadership. I think I heard correctly too. Did you get invited to an NFL combine after your time at Boston College?

Joel:

I did. Long story short-

Jon Eckert:

It was a bit of a side note, but-

Joel:

Long story short, I was in the master's program at BC, Education department. And I was going through, and I'm like, "I don't know if I want to be a teacher. I want to go out," right?

Jon Eckert:

Yeah.

Joel:

Make millions. And so long story short, agent comes back and says, "Listen, you're about 5'9 3/4s". The smaller you are, the faster you have to be." And so I said, "All right." I left grad school, left and trained for three months, trained for three months. And I did my pro day at BC and by God's grace hit the 44, 41-invert, the whole thing.

And so during that time, I was planning a wedding throughout that whole time. And so long story short, what ended up happening is a Canadian football league came down and said, "Hey, we're going to be trying out people too." And so I tried out for them. And they come back after the draft happens. I don't get drafted, whatever. And they said, "We want exclusive rights on him. We want him to come to Canada." My agent says, "Hey, you can go to the Patriots, try out with them, Seattle, Cincinnati, try out for them, or you can go the CFL route. They have exclusive rights on you." And so I'm about to get married. "I'm like, I need money now." I went the CFL route, and within a day, day and a half, I was like, "This is not what I want to do. This is not what I thought." And decided to step away, came back home, got into education. That's how it all happened.

Jon Eckert:

Okay. That's a great side story. Again, we've been talking before we jumped on about untapped talent and untapped potential, and so I'm so grateful that education has tapped some of your potential. Talk a little bit about some of the people that were integral in doing that, because as leaders, we want to help other people be that for kids. Can you talk a little bit about some of the people that were impactful for you that way?

Joel:

Oh, absolutely. First woman that comes to mind is Ms. Astrella, my resource teacher at the time. If you're a kid in the '80s, you know resource teachers, you get pulled out of the class. You got to take that walk of shame to the door. You can't really stay in the reading groups. You can't really stay in any of the other groups; you have to be sent out to a special room. And it was really at that time, I'm getting pulled out, I'm just academically defeated. I'm stupid, I'm worthless. I don't know what's going on. This is why I can't stand school. But Ms. Astrella, yeah, she's at my foundation. She brought me in. She loved on me. She believed in me outside of your parents, right?

Jon Eckert:

Mm-hmm.

Joel:

And there's a bit of you that says, "Hey, your parents got to love you. Your parents got to do this." And so when you're in that mindset, of discount what they say, how they love on you. My parents loved on me, supported me, but at the time you're thinking they have to. But Ms. Astrella was that foundation that came in, worked with me, held me accountable. She was not playing around. Held me accountable, believed in me. Made me do it over if I did it wrong. And so really helped me to get some of that academic confidence back. And then next thing you know, she becomes my second grade teacher.

And it was like I was back in resource class. She would hold me in from recess if I did it wrong. She would love on me. She would communicate with my parents. Oh man, my parents and her work on a constant communication thread at the time. And she was at my foundation, absolutely. And then as I started to become more academically confident, I had coaches that would pour into me. And those were the people, believe it or not, that were at my wedding. I had coaches and teachers at my wedding. Yes. And so those are the people that have meant the world to me because they believed in me at a time I didn't believe in myself.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and it's interesting that you didn't see yourself as an educator-

Joel:

No.

Jon Eckert:

... and that you had these people, these coaches and teachers pouring into you and it just took time. And going up to the CFL and saying, "Hey, this isn't for me, and then, no, firefighting for whatever reason isn't for me." And then you get in with the kids, and the kids are always what's sell-

Joel:

[inaudible 00:07:42] education.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. That's it. There's a lot of other interesting things about education, being a constant lifelong learner and being able to go deep into content and some other thing. There are things that are appealing, but if the kids don't sell you on education, you're in the wrong profession.

Joel:

Absolutely.

Jon Eckert:

The paycheck's not going to do it, so it's got to be the kids. I love that. You got to ninth grade. And as a former middle school teacher, in my mind, those ninth graders are super mature kids. And we all know that your knucklehead characterization might be more accurate most of the time. But you went from there, ninth grade teacher, you moved up the ranks. I'm assuming, did you coach at all as well?

Joel:

Coach three sports. Football, basketball, track all the way up.

Jon Eckert:

Okay. You're living life with these kids, and you're doing this-

Joel:

Absolutely.

Jon Eckert:

And now you're in the center working with us building out networks of leaders. Talk a little bit about how that's helped you and some of the other work you've done tap the potential of educators in the field, because I think there is a lot of talent in our field that goes unrecognized. Talk a little bit about how you've done that.

Joel:

Absolutely. It really comes from me having to live it out. I believe I was on tap talent and there were people that surrounded me and said, "Hey, you would be good at this. You'd be good at this." And I'm like, "Yeah." But you hear it multiple times. When you interact with those people, you start to believe it. And so by God's grace, I've been able to put in a lot of leadership roles is because I believe, trusted people and friends and other leaders that say, "I'm going to put you in this so you can lead."

And so what I've done is ever since getting into leadership, I have felt it's had to be my obligation to look at that untapped potential. And there's a lot. I believe in every school there's untapped potential. I've usually found it not in the obvious cases of those that are working on their degrees, it's mostly those are your quiet leaders, your working bees that are out there and are just wanting to do their best for the kids. That's the talent that I've been able to shine a light on and say, "Hey, you can do more in this."

Jon Eckert:

Well, in our master's program, we have a number of people that'll enter the program, it's a master's in school leadership, and they'll say, "I don't know if I'm really going to be a principal," or, "I don't know if I'm really a leader. I try to do really good work, and I have great colleagues." I'm like, "You're the exact person we want in this program." And so we've seen so much of that going on. And could you just share briefly the example you had on your panel that you were facilitating yesterday with the participant in the front who was a little reluctant?

Joel:

Yes.

Jon Eckert:

Can you take that away?

Joel:

Yes. She was actually the highlight of my panel. And so the panel, you're in there with leaders all throughout Texas. And you have the panel up front that is sharing their wisdom, their experience. And you can just tell, leaders, when they go to conferences, I believe they're the most vulnerable simply because they're there, and it's one of the most comfortable spaces to where any leader can say, "I don't know. And I'm just trying to connect with other people."

And so how I like to run panels is I don't like to give to get model. They're there to give, you're there to get, and then you move about your way. We're going to participate, we're going to support one another. And one of the ways in which I do that is I create a very uncomfortable environment in regards of I'm just going to call on you and you're meant to contribute. People don't like that.

And so there was a woman in the very front row. And I said, "All right, guys, here's your Q&A for the panel. If you don't ask questions, I'm just going to call on you and you're going to have to have a question." And so everyone has a heightened sense of I better have something ready. And so we had a couple of participants, and I saw this woman sitting in the front row all by herself. And I said, "Hey, I'm coming to you next." And she says, "Oh, gosh." And she just had this look of he's going to call on me; I got to have something ready. And you could tell she was nervous. I said, "Hey, don't worry about it. I'm not going to call on you now, but you're going to end our session with the last question." And you could tell she was sitting there, she was processing because all the pressure was on her.

And as the Lord would have it, she asked one of the most profound questions that the panel actually had to really sit back and really think and say, "That was a great question." That is untapped potential right there is because now that individual who didn't want to do it, at least somebody like me who, I didn't know her from Adam, but for me to say, "You're going to end our panel with your question," and for her to be validated in the question she asked, she left the conference with a smile. I was able to give her a hug afterwards. And hopefully she left more confident than what she came in.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and wasn't your panel on engagement?

Joel:

Engagement, yes.

Jon Eckert:

Again, future leaders.

Joel:

Yes.

Jon Eckert:

And so it's engagement over comfort. And sometimes comfort is the enemy of engagement. If you feel like, oh, I'm not going to get called on. I can just be back here and blend into the woodwork. And you didn't let her be that comfortable. And the whole group benefited from that engagement. And again, that's the point.

And so you do a lot of work with Black male educators through the center. And that's one of the things, we are trying to get more voices into the work we do because when you don't engage the body of Christ, you don't engage the world of students that you serve and you don't have a wide range of perspectives in there, it's not about representation so much, it's a we are impoverished when we miss those voices of that educator in the front who doesn't come in or we miss a whole population of people who don't have a voice because we're not in conversation, and we're not in community with them. How have you had some successes with bringing some different voices into conversations and spaces where they might not have typically been?

Joel:

Right. Well, when you look at the group Black male Christian educators, and it can be Christian educators or public educators as well, I really wanted to help create the group. I don't want anyone thinking that I spearheaded. I wanted to help create the group is because when you look across the demographics, Black males make up 2% out of those two-

Jon Eckert:

Of the teaching population.

Joel:

Of the teaching population. 2%. And me being a Black male, I'm saying, "Yeah, I have a heart for this. I need to keep more in." And so we create a space to where we can come to the table and we can talk about some of our general realities and then also be an encouragement to one another and really push ourselves to really think outside of our current position.

And so the group has been very great. We come together and we're extremely vulnerable. And we're saying, "Hey, how can we better our environments for all students?" But before we can do that, we have to feel encouraged like any teacher. We have to feel encouraged, we have to feel we can do the work, and we just have to feel we have a space and opportunity to go somewhere and just be unfiltered and just say what we got to say within its rawest state to really brainstorm what other people who we feel understand some of our general realities. And we all do that. We do it on a woman's level, men's level, principal level, head of school level. We all have these groups. The group is not to silo our thought process or silo our experience, but sometimes we just need to break away from the group to regroup and then come back in the group and participate.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. George Yancey is a sociologist on campus, and he comes in and speaks to my classes. And he tells our students of color, "Hey, if you just need to step away from these conversations that you're constantly having to represent your entire race or ethnicity, give yourself permission to step away because that conversation's going to be there." And so so many students can feel this, and certainly educators can where every time there's another committee on inclusion or mattering or belonging, it's like, "Oh, well, we got to make sure we get Joel on that committee." It can be exhausting.

Now, the impulse is right. We want to get the wisdom from Joel as an educator who's had this unique experience of coming through with a... I have to say you're the only person we've ever had on the podcast that runs a 44 40 and had a 41-inch vertical, so that's the real claim to fame. But we want Joel's perspective because of what he brings to it. And so that's a good impulse, but it can also be exhausting. How have you found a balance between retreating into community and then stepping out into places where it's going to be uncomfortable? But you have to be engaged because you care about each kid? How have you balanced that?

Joel:

You just said it. It's really thinking about the kids who will benefit from this. And so it's one of those things, you feed the teachers, they don't eat the kids when you think about it.

Jon Eckert:

That's good.

Joel:

And so I sit back and I say, "Hey, my voice is as equally important as everyone else's voice at the table." Can it be exhausting? I know it can be exhausting from a position level. I know principals are fatigued in their role, in their experience. I know heads of school are fatigued in their role. I know teachers are fatigued. I know women are fatigued. And so we're all fatigued. But given our experiences, it sets a unique fatigue, if that makes sense, for each group.

And so for me, what keeps me going is knowing that there is real fatigue, absolutely, but my voice is as equally important at that table. And it's one of the things of letting people know, especially as you look within the world we're in today, I'm not saying my voice and my experience needs to dominate the conversation, by no means. I'm an ingredient to this whole thing just like everyone else is. My experience is not meant to be worshiped or idolized, nor is it meant to be ignored. And so I just want that part of the conversation, not to dominate it, but it's a part of it so we can get a collective understanding of who's in the room. What are the unique experiences? And then how do we navigate those experiences as we move forward together to make sure all of our students are understood, heard, and valued. For me, I sponsor kids in my head. Sponsor kids are what kid out there or kids out there or groups out there would benefit from my experience at the table?

Jon Eckert:

Well, I would also say, because I totally agree with the unique levels of fatigue based on positionality, whatever that is, I also would say there's also a unique opportunity for joy and energy from that because as you bring that voice and you represent each kid in your mind, there's a different level of... It animates you differently. And so while I always want to acknowledge the hard work that educators do, it's also really meaningful. And our work is so much more interesting than so many other people who do work that earns more money, that adds value to society, that is... I don't ever want to prioritize one profession over another, but being in the profession that makes all others possible, we, as educators as a group, have this unique opportunity for energy and fatigue that are imbalanced. And so I'm willing to endure a little more fatigue because of the opportunity and the energy that comes when we get to do meaningful work together. Would you agree with that or am I being a little too-

Joel:

No, no, no.

Jon Eckert:

... toxically positive?

Joel:

I would agree. I think everyone knows nobody stays in education for the money. They don't. There has to be a high element of joy that you get, satisfaction that you get that you're imparting wisdom. And to be honest with you, that these kids are gracious enough to invite us in their journey. And so I think we stay for the relationship. I think we stay because we have something to impart to the next generation. Those that don't like kids or don't like that will fizzle out. They'll self-select out eventually. No, that joy is an important component of what we do.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. Well, and you pointed fatigue out, and the other night we were talking at dinner and you mentioned how, as educators, we should follow a kid through the day to understand how exhausting it is. And I was recounting an administrator in Illinois who had done that. She got to third or fourth period, and she was just exhausted from the day. I do think we have to remember our students are also uniquely fatigued and also have unique opportunities for joy and energy, we just need to tap into that more. And sometimes it takes us stepping into their shoes to see, oh, yeah, I forgot what this was like. Yeah, I appreciated your point about that.

Joel:

And it was told to me early on, "A great administrator never forgets what it's like to be a teacher." You ever say that in front of a teacher, they will stand up, they will applaud, encore, whatever. The second part of that is, "A great teacher never forgets what it's like to be a student."

Jon Eckert:

That's right. That's right. In the good and the bad, the fatigue and the joy.

Joel:

Absolutely.

Jon Eckert:

Lightning round. We always do a few questions at the end where we just get a sentence or two answer. I'm terrible at keeping my answers concise, but we'll see how well you do. You're fast, so let's see how well you can manage this. What's the worst piece of advice you've ever received as an educator or just in general? And then the best piece of advice. We'll take those in whatever order you want to take them.

Joel:

Yeah, the worst case, the worst advice, just get by. That's the worst. Just get by. Hey, I'm trying to really do this, or I'm trying to bring this to the classroom, something a little different. I'm still racking my brain over it. "Hey, just get by. Just do what you got to do."

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. That's what's exhausting.

Joel:

Worst advice.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. All right.

Joel:

Best advice, listen to the kids. As you're customizing things, as you're thinking about the kids, when was the last time you listened to the kids on what they want, how they listen, how they process? Best advice.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and we tried yesterday at our conference to bring in... And I think we did. We said we had expert consultants coming in at lunch. And then 15 minutes before lunch, 20 students come in and they're going to be expert consultants for people as they work on their problems of practice, how they're going to increase their gritty optimism and tell their leadership story. I really wanted to debrief with the students, but they had to go back to class before... I really wanted to get their take on what they were doing because I think about 10 of them had no idea what they were walking into, and they're standing at the back of the room being described as expert consultants on something that they don't know about. But that was our attempt, to listen and get leaders to listen. And I think we need to treat them in that way because they are, in fact, the partners in the learning process that so often get left out of the conversation when they're the whole focus of what we do.

Joel:

The whole focus. Absolutely. One of the things I've asked teachers over the years is, "Give me your hardest math problem. Give me the hardest concept in, whatever, science or whatever class. And I ask you, 'Can I find it on Google? ChatGPT. Can I look it up on ChatGPT?'" And chances are you can. And so what does that say? Is we've seen a shift in education, especially in the instruction. Now these kids are equipped with all the information they could possibly want, but they need guides. They need someone to help them sift through that information. And so as you look, it's like education has always been this. I'm here to be a reliable and trustable guide to get these kids through some of the obstacle courses and help jump these hurdles so that they'll be fully functioning, successful individuals in the world and impact the world for a greater good.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, that's good. They need wisdom is what they need. And that's what they need us for. And that's what I think greater educators do. Speaking of wisdom, best book you've read in the last year? It doesn't have to be education, but what's the best book you've read?

Joel:

I've read. Well, I would have to say The Student Leadership Challenge. I teach a leadership class, Go Lead. Shout out to Jason Beard over at Mount Paran Christian who designed the course. But The Student Leadership Challenge is a great book. It's able to put leadership on a student level. Things to think about: What is your commitment level? Why do you want to lead? How do you lead? And that student leadership challenge allows us to go deeper into why somebody would want to lead. But not only that, why would someone want to follow you?

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. Love that. We'll wrap up with this. What gives you the most hope as you look forward to the time ahead we have in education?

Joel:

The most hope I see is people keep coming to conferences, number one. Students keep showing up. Parents. Despite where you are at in your education journey, but parents keep dropping their kids off to our schools.

And here's something we have to acknowledge. Parents drop them off at our schools, and we have seven hours with them. If they play sports, that's an additional two, two and a half, depending on their level, so they're with us for nine, nine and a half hours. Most active parts of the day. Parents continue to drop them off because there is some level of trust they have with us. That gives me some hope that parents are still looking to partner with educators. And we're looking to get that trifecta to where it's the parent, it's the teacher and the student involved in this process. That continues to give me hope.

Jon Eckert:

No, that's a great place to end. Joel, thanks for your time, thanks for your leadership. Appreciate all you do.

Joel:

Thank you for having me. 

Jon Eckert:

Jon Eckert:

All right, Stephen, welcome to the Just Schools podcast. Really excited to have you on. We've been wanting to have you on for quite a while as I think you're leading some of the most interesting work in schools right now. So tell us a little bit about your background and what got you to the point that you're at right now in your career.

Stephen Carter:

Jon, thank you. I'm pleased to be on this podcast, and love following your work and what you're doing as well.

Really, the journey was a journey through Christian education. I started in 10th grade in Christian education, graduated from a Christian school, went to a Christian college, started teaching at a Christian school, landed at Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy in Cincinnati, Ohio when I was 24 years old. So that means they took on a teacher who had no idea what he was doing, and they took a risk, right? And I cut my teeth on those early years as an English teacher. And I made a discovery early on, which was if you say yes to things, you will get a lot of awesome opportunities.

I should also point out, Jon, you'll get some not so awesome opportunities, i.e., let's start a debate team at the school. Let's coach cross country. Let's get involved with the fine arts, different aspects of writing, critical reviews for plays. I said yes to everything. And that meant that 11 years ago when Dean Nicholas, who at the time was our principal, came to me and said, "Stephen, we've got this idea for this coffee shop for students. You should help run it," of course my answer was yes, never mind the fact that we are about to welcome our second child and we had all kinds of irons in the fire. The answer was yes.

What I didn't know, Jon, is that would completely change my life. I talk a lot about transformation. That was the defining moment of transformation, when it was here's an English teacher who in my mind had no business starting an entrepreneurship program, stepping into this space, discovering a passion that came alive through student engagement, and now 11 years later, just to borrow one of your favorite words, flourishing, a flourishing program that has now enabled me to help impact schools around the nation as they start programs that enable students to thrive and then flourish through just meaningful engagement. So it's been a journey of discovering what it means to truly engage students around the entrepreneurial mindset.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and I'm curious, and I've never asked you this but did you have an entrepreneurial bent prior to taking this on? It feels like to just jump into what you've done and saying yes as a form of being somewhat entrepreneurial, but did you have that in your background at all?

Stephen Carter:

Well, Jon, I did, but I had repressed it because I thought you had to repress that to be a teacher, right?

Jon Eckert:

Oh, right, yeah.

Stephen Carter:

Because if you're a teacher, you're the academic. You're the person who contains the knowledge. You can't have an entrepreneurial bent. I had a lawn mowing business when I was in school, a babysitting business. I would go door to door passing out flyers to do anything around a house to get some money. I even sold my lawn mowing business when I went to college, not for much money, but the point was I had just repressed it. And when I stepped into this space, it just all came flooding back and it took me on a journey of discovery into what does a renewed mindset really mean? I talk a lot about Romans 12:2 when Paul says, "Don't conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." I experienced it that first year starting an entrepreneurship program in real-time, and then I saw students do that as well and it's just been a journey ever since.

Jon Eckert:

Well, I think it's fascinating and maybe a sad commentary on our profession that it feels like you have to set aside that entrepreneurial mindset to be a teacher. And so I've worked with a group that was the Center for Teaching Quality, now it's Mira Education, but they wrote a book a number of years ago called Teacherpreneurs, and how do we get educators to think more in a more entrepreneurial way about this really human task that we do with students. And so I think that's why I've had such an affinity for your work. You're literally working on entrepreneurship with kids.

But I think even just in the way you've built out what you've done at CHCA and now working with schools all over the country, I've seen that mindset in you as I know you've had to overcome some challenges. So what were some of the biggest hurdles for you getting to where you're at now? Because I think there are a lot of schools out there looking at entrepreneurial programs, and obviously there are going to be different challenges, but I would imagine there would be some similar obstacles people might have to get over. So what were two or three of the biggest challenges you had getting this going?

Stephen Carter:

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. I can look back on it and say they were formative, and I would almost call them constraints more than challenges. And the principle that I now realize I operate out of is that constraints breed creativity. So now I seek them out, Jon. I'm like, "Yes, give me a constraint."

So for me, there were a couple big ones. Budget was huge. I'm remembering this. I document this in the book. I went to Dean Nicholas early on. This was a motif in the story. I go asking for money and I leave with very little money or none. That's a constraint. Here's what I've told him multiple times. "If I had gotten the money for the program that I asked for, it wouldn't have grown like it did." The constraint was budget.

Another constraint, time. Time is the number one thing. You talk to school leaders all the time. Time is the biggest constraint. Our teachers are strapped. There's no bandwidth. There's no time. And I would just say the beauty of this is it helps us understand how to better manage our time so that we begin investing it.

And I think the third, this is one I don't talk about a lot, but it was getting over the sense of being almost hypocritical in a space where I didn't have an MBA. I wasn't an entrepreneur technically at the time, and I felt like an imposter. And I'm in a school, like many schools listening, of business leaders where the parents own businesses and they have MBAs and they have these degrees. And I just decided in that moment, I would own it and ask for advice and ask for help and what should I be reading? Who should I be talking to? And it opened up more doors than I ever possibly imagined.

Jon Eckert:

So you mentioned the book, and it's a great book teaching the entrepreneurial mindset, innovative education for K-12 schools. I love it that you built... Because the SeedTree Group is your... That's your group, right? So you've published it that way. Again, it's a great blueprint for it. But I have to have you share a little bit, I don't know if I have the name quite right, but was it the Leaning Eagle Coffee Cart? Wasn't that-

Stephen Carter:

The Leaning Eagle Coffee Bar.

Jon Eckert:

Can you give a... That story just makes me laugh every time I hear it. Can you just give us a little bit-

Stephen Carter:

Oh, my goodness. Well, so we're-

Jon Eckert:

... the genesis of the... Yeah, go ahead.

Stephen Carter:

So Jon, you're referencing our flagship business. And when we launched this whole program in Cincinnati, we started with a rolling coffee cart and three little rolling carts and we're not... This was Jason Oden was a teacher at the time who was instrumental in this. And we built the permanent location and we were going through some naming pieces. Well, the school was going through one of these big rebranding campaigns and had hired all the consultants and all the things. And they had just released this big idea, and it was, "Hey, at CHCA, students lean in."

And so I remember, I'm sitting there as a teacher, we're in the big assembly room, and every teacher turns and you just get this look of like, "Oh, here we go. Where are we going to have to implement this? Oh, another one of these branding campaigns." So I remember the discussion then went into the naming of the coffee bar, and our mascot is the eagle. So it was this tongue in cheek approach of, "Hey, we're the Leaning Eagle because we lean in and take a sip at the coffee bar." And it was really funny for the first two or three years, then the school changes its branding campaign. So now it's like, "Why is the Eagle leaning?" So we have the old school people who remember the why, and it's rooted in that.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. Well, and speaking of constraints breeding creativity, didn't your cart get shut down due to health concerns? Wasn't that-

Stephen Carter:

Oh, Jon, you're getting-

Jon Eckert:

That right?

Stephen Carter:

... all of our dirty laundry out there. And yeah, you're absolutely right. Oh my gosh, those early years, it's so much funny. That's why I tell schools when I work with them. I'm like, "Look, we've been doing this 11 years. I can start you at year seven because you're going to overcome a lot of what we learned the hard way." And I'm telling, this is embarrassing, Jon, but I guess we'll just put it out there. We didn't know we needed a health license. No one told us. We're just selling coffee. We didn't know.

And so we've got the student there and he's serving coffee. Well, here comes the health inspector, walks up to him and says, "Hey, where do you wash hands?" And this is probably not the best kid to answer that question. Let's face it, Jon, this is the one kid where you're like, "Please don't ask him anything." So this kid says, "Why would we need to wash hands?" And it's like, "Are you kidding me right now?" I'm teaching an English class and I get called down and it's like, "Why is this conversation even happening? Couldn't you have had a better answer than why do we need to wash hands?" We did not get shut down. But I will tell you this, we had a hand sink in no time, a license at a record pace, and we learned a lot of lessons along the way.

Jon Eckert:

So I love it. Page 188 and 189, they have people saying, you walk into CHCA now, we should talk a little bit about where you're at now with the teaching kitchen and the greenhouse and all those pieces, and people are like, "Well, we don't have that. We don't have the resources for that. But you can do this with $150 and an innovative idea. And I think that's what the Leaning Eagle was. And then that blew up into these things. And then you've had a number of businesses. I remember the... Was it a smoothie business that you're like, "Hey, we didn't have it placed right. We didn't..." And the kids learn so much from that failure about what does work and what doesn't work. And so you want some of that because as an entrepreneur, you have to try things. And the benefit of risk-taking isn't that you're going to be successful. It's learning from that. And so I feel like you have built that in well.

And I want to know how you have built what you've built at CHCA, but then give schools what they need where they have the constraints that are going to be real, but they learn the lessons that you learned in those first seven years because I feel like those are super valuable for you and for the students that you've been leading with. So talk a little bit about what you've built and some of the ways you've built it, even how you got the pizza ovens. I think that's an amazing story where you found state money that allowed you to buy pizza ovens. So I would love to hear a little bit about the current state at CHCA.

Stephen Carter:

So currently when you step into our school on our campus where we are PK-12, over a thousand students, right around 1,200, several campuses, you're going to see a fully fledged program, six full-time faculty members running it, six on-campus businesses, 15 elective courses, a certificate track. It's fully baked, but you're seeing the product of what we learned along the way. Because I will tell you this, as we've already illustrated, when we started, we were living that entrepreneurial mindset. And by that, I mean that famous saying of we had jumped off the cliff and we were building the plane on our way down in real-time with students.

And that's the beauty of it, is the students were experiencing all of these different aspects and having an awesome time. We now have to seek out failure. I hate to say it that way because early on, failure is easy. Now, we have to create it because learning from that is so pivotal. It's one of our four attributes we teach. We built these businesses and then we discovered we needed curriculum and we needed learnings. And so all of this was built along the way as we were going. And we discovered there's four attributes that truly embody the entrepreneurial mindset. And that is truly understanding a directed growth mindset, tethered to mission, vision and values, understanding the why and the purpose and the compass of direction, then developing grit. And that's the goal-setting piece that's been instrumental in all of our business.

I'll give you a little anecdote here. You mentioned our pizza oven business. That started because we had a goal. We wanted to build this teaching kitchen. We had no money. And I'll second your point, Jon. People walk in our campus and they say, "Wow." Well, you should have seen it when we were building these things. It was nothing, okay? So we're building this, we don't even have enough money for the drywall. So we were going to build it without drywall. It was going to be an extra $20,000. And we had a senior at the time who now is at a three Michelin star restaurant who said, "No, we're going to do that drywall, Mr. Carter." And I'm like, "Oh, really?" He's like, "We're going to start a business using that pizza oven and we're going to sell pizzas until we have enough money to finish building that drywall." And that's how it started. It was a goal. And that pizza business is still an operation. And so it's teaching these attributes through the experience of these hands-on businesses.

And I'll end this point on this note. What we discovered in hindsight is it's not a business as much as it is a laboratory, and it's a laboratory to experience in real-time problem-solving via systems. Hey, we're out of cups at the coffee bar. That's an awesome problem. Why? Because it means something failed in our system, which means we need to address that failure, which means we need a better system so that we can replicate the success in the future. That's the learning. You're going to have kids graduating with this program. I don't care if they start a coffee bar. Frankly, I don't think they should. You lose a lot of money unless you open 15 of them. Don't start a coffee bar, listeners, okay? At your school, it's fine. But you've got kids leaving who know how to solve problems and create systems to prevent future problems, I guarantee you every business owner in the country would hire that kid on the spot.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, that's well said. I think sometimes we get caught up in the product and where we get to and we miss the whole point of it, which is the learning that goes on and the problem solving, which is so key. And so you having to seek out opportunities for failure, that's a great place to be in. But I do think it's important that we don't miss that, that kids need a chance to try some things that as adults, we're like, "Ugh." And you have been doing it for 12 years. That's probably not going to work but at some level, you need to let them learn that lesson or better yet, prove you wrong. Because that's what entrepreneurs do. They see something, they see a hole, they figure out a way to solve the problem. And then in doing that, they're solving all kinds of problems. So I love the mindset that you're teaching because I think that's what's so integral.

What opportunities do you have do you see for schools who want to partner with you? I know you're with 25 schools now. You want to get to 50 schools in fairly short order. What opportunities do you see for that? Because I think there's been a huge interest as I've heard people talk about you and to you about the opportunities they have.

Stephen Carter:

So when I talk to heads of school, typically I hear problems. I used to hear problems around enrollment and things have changed to where there's not a lot of that anymore but engagement is huge. And it's teacher engagement, student engagement, and parent engagement. And here's what I'm really seeing as a massive opportunity. Parents are now coming to school saying, "We want this. We want this. We want this." But they don't exactly know what they want, just that they want this. And the same often at schools. And schools have the problem of we've got a lot of programs, a lot of great programs, and often you can get program fatigue. It's like, well, we're going to launch this other program. Well, does it have a long shelf life? Is it just going to be another maker space idea that turns into a storage room?

So for me, the opportunity is transformation over tools, or I could even put it as skills over content. We are at a defining point in education when it comes to shifting to meaningful real-world skill building for our students. Think about what Malcolm Gladwell said last summer on stage at an event. He said that collaboration is the skill of the 21st century. We've been doing collaboration in schools for as long as we can remember, but when you collaborate with a group of students to build a brand new venture on the campus that is still going to be there 10 years later, you're collaborating around a legacy. You're collaborating in real-time to learn leadership skills, effective communication, all these core skills, even emotional intelligence.

So I'll answer your question like this. The opportunity is parents want this kind of programming. Students are engaged by this kind of programming. And here's something really cool. Donors come alive with this programming. When I work with private, I mostly work with private Christian K-12 schools around the nation, and here's what I'll tell them. 60% of our program here in Cincinnati, Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy, 60% is funded by donors who are alumni parents that had stopped giving to the school. That to me, we're not talking about robbing, giving to other programs. We're talking about new interest. So the opportunity is low barrier to entry with massive ROI around engagement and true transformation.

One of the big areas of this business, it's not just starting a program. It's training teachers to then engage the students through the program toward a certificate that demonstrates key learnings in the entrepreneurial mindset. So it's student-facing and teacher-facing with the mindset to transform the entire school culture. So Jon, I am pumped.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, and I feel that for you. I should say full disclosure here, I'm on the Cincinnati Hills board because I love what Dean Nicholas is doing as head, and I love the entrepreneurial program. And we went and studied your school as part of a book project we were doing several years ago. I walked away thinking this was some of the most interesting work that I've seen in schools, particularly because of the engagement piece. And I think your point about donors getting excited about it and people seeing the value in it, it's when you see kids truly engaged and doing meaningful work together in this collaborative way, not this cheesy artificial collaboration that happens in schools where we give kid, "Now, this is your role and this is your role," and you lead the discussion. It's like this is real money and you now have six businesses that are flourishing. That's really powerful.

I wanted to circle back and then we'll do our lightning round. I wanted to circle back to this initial thing, you saying yes to so many things. We have a lot of people who are educators, and some of them are in their first four or five years of teaching. And I'm always citing this David Brooks quote, "A life of commitment requires saying thousands of no's for the sake of a few precious yeses." And I really worry about people saying yes too often. I'm a people pleaser. I say yes too often all the time, and I don't treat my yeses as precious enough. But I wonder, your comment, constraints breed creativity, is there a way to balance those yeses with that constraints breeding creativity mindset? Do you see any through line there? Because I think you cannot be saying yes to everything anymore-

Stephen Carter:

Right, right.

Jon Eckert:

... because I know you can't manage that. So how do you see those two things in tension, constraints breeding creativity and saying yes to cool opportunities?

Stephen Carter:

Oh my goodness, this is the best question I've heard this month. This is awesome, and I'll answer it with a little bit of Greek mythology. There's a character in Greek mythology who's considered the god of opportunity, and his defining characteristic is he has a lock of hair in the front of his head and the rest of his head is bald. And the idea is he's got winged feet, he comes running by, and if you want to grab onto opportunity, you got to be ready to grab that lock of hair or all you get is the bald back of his head.

So for me, it's not just about like, "Oh, when opportunity comes, I'm going to get up off my seat and open the door and I'll begrudgingly... I'll put my coffee cup down and go." No, I'm already outside the door and I'm going to see him running down the street. And in that moment, I'm going to decide if that is an opportunity that is within my why and my vision and my mission. And to me, that's why we always start with a directed growth mindset.

If you come into our greenhouse, you're going to see these tomato plants, Jon, that are 20, 30 feet tall. You don't get to be a 25-foot tall tomato plant unless you do some pruning, and you've got to prune those leaves and you've got to prune those suckers. And that means you have to know where you're going and why. So I would answer your question by saying I would never chase opportunity until I knew where I was going and why, and that is what we're teaching to our students in real-time.

Jon Eckert:

Love that. That's so needed for all of us, not just our K-12 students. So we always wrap up with a lightning round just to get quick, short burst answers. These are the ones I'm the worst at always. But what would be the best advice you've ever received as an entrepreneur, as an educator, or just as a human being?

Stephen Carter:

Kaizen, the Japanese word for continuous improvement. Never stop learning or improving. Best advice I ever got. In fact, I even have temporary tattoos I pass out that say kaizen on them.

Jon Eckert:

I love that. Love that. What's the worst advice you've ever received as a teacher or entrepreneur?

Stephen Carter:

Probably I would say every single idea has validity for you. And that led into chasing opportunities I shouldn't have chased.

Jon Eckert:

Yes, good bit of wisdom there. Best book you've read in the last year? This could be education-related, business-related, or just being a human being.

Stephen Carter:

I read 52 books a year, and there's one of those that I reread every single year, every year. And that is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. I'm telling you, this book has changed every part of my life.

Jon Eckert:

All right, that's been popular for quite a while, so...

Stephen Carter:

Yes, it has.

Jon Eckert:

It's good.

Stephen Carter:

It's old-school.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. But hey, when there's wisdom, there's wisdom. So that's great. All right. And then what would you say your greatest hope? If you were to distill down your greatest hope for what's ahead in education into a sentence, what would you say it is?

Stephen Carter:

This is the time for education to experience true transformation, and we as educators get to be part of that leading toward impact. And to me, impact is refusing to stay in the same place but committing to the same path.

Jon Eckert:

That's well said. That's a great place to wrap things up. So if you're interested in knowing more about Stephen, his work is out there. He's part of the SeedTree Group, and he has written the book Teaching the Entrepreneurial Mindset. He's put out a number of other pieces. I've heard him speak. He's great. You can always hear the energy and the passion in what he's sharing. But it's a blessing to have you on, and I'm so grateful for the work you're doing in schools at Cincinnati Hills and now all over the place. So thanks for being with us.

Stephen Carter:

Thank you, Jon. Appreciate what you're doing and appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

All right. Welcome back to [Jeff 00:00:05] Schools. Today we're here with Max Silverman from the University of Washington. He has been doing work that we really aspire to do in so many ways, in supporting school leaders and education leaders in all different kinds of places through the Center for Educational Leadership. So Max, if you would share a little bit about, what brought you into this work? Maybe we'll start there and then just take the conversation from there.

Max Silverman:

It's a funny story, I was a high school principal ... I was a high school assistant principal here in Washington State, at a school that, however you would characterize a school or measure a school, it was struggling. I think the students would tell you that, the staff, and I got the opportunity to be the principal. I quickly found out that as a former high school basketball coach and former social studies teacher, I was actually pretty good at getting people coalesced around a vision of what could be. I was pretty good at working with folks and us agreeing that the kids were fine, that we were the problem, and then we hit a wall. We actually didn't know how to improve the quality of teaching and student experience. That beyond our really wonderful intentions towards our students, that we needed to drastically change what teaching looked like, what school culture and environment looked like. And my school district, just by chance and luck for me, contracted with the Center for Educational Leadership. This is about 2004 maybe, 2005, and I immediately went through the most rigorous program around how to be an instructional leader. I went from saying really stupid things to teachers like, "Oh, I was just in your classroom, and I noticed you called on more girls than boys. Maybe that's something you want to work on."

So knowing how to talk to a teacher and ask questions around, "Tell me a little bit more about what you're working on in your practice. What was your intent for student engagement today?" I just learned how to be in language arts classes and math classes and not be a waste of time to the teachers, to actually be a value add. So that started my journey with CEL, and I was a client of CEL for probably five years and then in 2009 had the opportunity to join the CEL team, begin to build out our work with central office leaders.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Yes. I love the confident humility that you just led into with that, the example that you gave on the who's being called on. My other favorite thing that principals always like to point out is, "Oh, I didn't see a learning target on the board." I didn't see ... It's like, okay, if you're a really bad teacher, then having that learning target on the board might give the kids some idea of what the teacher is trying to do. But for any average educator that learning target is not doing a whole lot for kids, but that's always a go-to one.

Max Silverman:

It's pretty funny to watch a group of leaders walk into a classroom, see a learning target, check the box on their checklist and not think about, oh, is it standard space, is it rigorous? Is that actually what the teacher is doing that day?

Dr. Jon Eckert:

That's right. I can't tell you how many times I've walked into learning targets and I'm like, I feel like that learning target may have been up for the last four or five days because whatever is happening here seems completely unrelated to that. But hey, it's on there, that checks the box, complete compliance exercise. So I do love that research out there that the people who benefit the most from evaluations are the people doing the evaluating, because you're the one getting all the expertise as you see all these different contexts. So I appreciate the humility that you had saying, hey, I could do a lot of the things a leader needs to do, but when we actually wanted to move the needle, I needed this expertise from CEL to figure that out. So I'm curious, the program that you went into, was it a degree program? Was it a support? Was it a part of a cohort? What did that look like?

Max Silverman:

No. So when CEL started ... and more formally, when the Center for Educational Leadership University of Washington, but CEL, we are very unique in that we are a fee-for-service center from a tier-one research university. So we contract with school systems across the country to provide leader professional learning. Even back then, my school district hired CEL and instead of going to a district-led leader professional development, CEL led it. They brought in the most brilliant people from District Two in New York City, from San Diego Unified School District. We had whole group professional development. But even then, Jon, it was fascinating, they would model for us by bringing a whole elementary classroom to our professional development. We'd see a model lesson and then learn how to give feedback to the teacher right there. And then I got coaching in my school, so it was both really good professional development as well as embedded coaching.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

I love that, and I love that an R1 is doing that. Because so often we leave that behind for the research, so then we don't actually apply any of the good research that we're finding, so that feels like a great relationship. How many districts do you all currently work with at CEL? What's the scope of the work? So let's talk about breadth and then we'll talk a little bit more about depth.

Max Silverman:

Yeah. We have a fascinating scope, in that we work with approximately 40 school systems a year as large as Chicago Public Schools and Metro National Public schools, and then as small as Nooksack, Washington. We tend to be in urban districts and rural districts. For many years we lead or facilitate the South Central Washington Superintendents' Network. We've done that for about 15 plus years, and that's out in the Yakima Valley of Washington. Once a month we're in classrooms with superintendents, so we have a pretty wide, pretty good breadth. We also lead the National Principal Supervisor Academy for AASA.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Okay. So with that breadth ... I love the urban/rural because those challenges are different because of different contexts, but there are commonalities. I'm interested, as you've been able to see that and you've gone deeper with these districts, what are some of the commonalities you find across districts, particularly post-COVID? Because my sense of COVID is, it exposed a lot of issues that were already there,, it just exacerbated them. So I'm curious to see if that's been your experience and then, what's been common across these pretty diverse contexts you've been? Because that's a pretty unique perspective that you all have.

Max Silverman:

Yeah. I think it was, Rand just put out a study of superintendents and they compared where large district and small district superintendents spend their time. They're a little bit different, but what was striking to me is how little time they spend on the quality of teaching and learning. That really I think confirmed for me something that we're seeing is ... and leader surveys bear this out, school leaders and district leaders are spending a lot of time now particularly on mental health, both for students and staff. They're dealing with staff shortages, certificated, leader and classified staff. I think they're still putting things back together from COVID, so we find again and again that the bandwidth isn't there yet for leaders at scale. We still find plenty of leaders who can focus really intently, but the bandwidth of individual leaders in school systems isn't quite there yet to really focus on what's happening in classrooms, how do people get better?

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Well, and we were talking about this briefly before we jumped on the conversation, the conversation with Pixel out of the United Kingdom and the work they're doing. The two books they've written are Time to Think and Time to Think 2. I love that because so many educators I talk to, whatever role they're in, they don't have space to think. Or at least they don't feel like they do because the urgency of what they have to deal with and the mental health issues that are exacerbated by learning loss. So that's what I see. You had this learning loss happen over COVID, depending on how long you were out of in-person school because we know the online delivery just didn't work as well for so many kids. So you have these gaps and those gaps then feed the lack of worthiness, the lack of mattering, the lack of belonging, that then exacerbates the mental health, which then exacerbates the learning loss. So it's this thing. And then when you have staff shortages and you might actually get an adult, a human being in a classroom but they're not really trained, their background is not in the area they're teaching, that then exacerbates the mental health of that teacher. That exacerbates the mental health of the kids.

And then the other veteran faculty who know what needs to be done, they're then carrying a larger burden, because they're trying to help these new people that are coming in with good intentions but they're under-prepared for what they're going to do. So I wonder with all of that, that feels like a pretty bleak picture, where are you seeing some signs of hope in some of the districts that you're working with?

Max Silverman:

Yeah, thanks. We're lucky, we get to see hope all the time. The hope we see is that actually when we are with leaders, they want to dig in. They want to learn and get better, and they believe that getting better is a way to improving what happens for students. In most of our work we bring students into the learning in different ways. When leaders get to hear from students about what they want and need, it instigates their learning in a different way. It's really fascinating, the difference between a group of school leaders or district leaders looking at student climate survey data ... even if they do the most elegant analysis, it's still all intellectual. If we can bring in a student panel and have students talk about, how do they know they matter at school, what's a good day at school, what's a bad day? All of a sudden that instigates leader learning in a different way, because there's real kids right there in front of them. So that always makes me hopeful. The other space, I work primarily with central office leaders, and we've been working on this idea that students will have no more of something than adults in the system have.

So if we want students to be seen and heard, they actually won't be unless teachers and principals are. If we want students to have a sense of belonging, they won't unless teachers and principals have that as well. I've been really amazed at the willingness of central office leaders across the country, their willingness to slow down and go out and even interview principals about principal experience and use that as actual data. They all have to put in an Excel for it to become data to them. The willingness of people to really change their epistemology on what is true and knowledge, I do see a shift in that when people are afforded the time or make the time, and that's really hopeful.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Yes. I love that, and people that are still in education right now obviously have to have some element of gritty optimism. So that's the next book I'm working on, where do you get that optimism that's born out of experience, where you've seen kids become more of who they were created to be over and over and over again? What I love about what you said is the way you bring students into it. This is one of the challenges we've been dealing with in our center. So we have a leadership conference, it's a one-day thing in February. One of the things we're working on right now is having the leaders go through using a tool all day for what they're going to do differently, and then they check in over the next three months to make sure that's happening. But before they can actually finalize what that plan is have a student consulting panel where they're meeting with them and running their idea by a panel of students ... who are not at their school but are at the grade level they serve, who can give them feedback on yeah, that would work, no, that wouldn't work. Or here's what I think about that, so that they're the advisory board to the leaders.

Because we've done a lot of student panels and I think you're totally right, they get lost in the data. But when they hear the voices and they hear the lived experiences of the kids, that's different. So now we're trying to do this advisory board piece. I don't know, we've never tried it, it could completely blow up on us. I love that because I agree, if we miss the fact that students need to be leading with us ... I think that's a powerful insight that you all have had. Any advice for us as leaders as we try to bring students in? Any cautions or any, just based on that idea I just shared with you, bad idea, good idea, try something else?

Max Silverman:

Well, so what we keep coming up against is how hard it is for people to listen. So one thing, my colleague Jen McDermott had a project, really which started a lot of our student-centered work, where she interviewed students and met with students and just asked them, "What's a good day at school? What's a bad day at school?" They actually wrote stories or drew pictures, and she made this brilliant move of having them analyze the stories. So it was their data, they kept the data and they came to some conclusions about what they saw. Basically they told us, well, it looks like school's a place that we want to be happy and proud. But the other thing that they then helped us develop was a tool that helps leaders listen. I think my big takeaway, it's called the Student Experience Story Guide, and your listeners can get on our website. It's pretty cool because students came up with the use of the metaphor of heroes and villains. So leaders might ask, "Tell me about, who are the heroes in your school day, who are the villains?"

And one thing as I make sense of this, I think why that works for students is because what they hear is, tell me a story. As opposed to, "When are you most engaged," or "What part of the school day is most rigorous?" Students know that's for us, but tell me a story and then prove to me you're listening by asking really curious, thoughtful questions. So I don't know if I have any cautionary tales for you, but just keep thinking about, how would students ask each other's questions, or they talk to each other about school?

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Yeah. I think that's a super helpful idea and clear that you all listen to kids a lot, because I think we lose sight of that in academia. We lose sight of that in administration. One interesting thing, I had a conversation last year with Jon Hattie, he's from the Kiwi, from New ... But we were sitting and talking and he said, "Equity is a good example. Everybody, we care about equity. That's an important concept and that really matters. But kids don't think about equity, they think about fairness. So how do they talk about what's fair and how do you ask questions they understand?" I love the heroes and villains piece because that's thinking about things in the form of story, the way kids think about stuff. Because kids will all talk about teachers who are fair and who are not fair, they're not necessarily talking about those who are equitable and inequitable. But in their minds those are the same things. I'm sure philosophically you could find some nuances between them.

But at the end of the day, what matters most for kids is what matters most for kids, and therefore, what matters most for educators. So I think that's a good reminder.

Max Silverman:

That square [inaudible 00:18:41]? So that Superintendent's' Network I mentioned that I facilitate in the Yakima Valley and Washington, we were at an elementary school getting ready to observe classrooms. We brought students in, and one of the questions is, "How do you know you matter at school," or "How would you know you matter?" A young girl, I think a fourth grader said, "Oh, that's easy. All those walls in the halls wouldn't be white and there would be rainbows at my eye level."

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Wow.

Max Silverman:

What happened was, the superintendents decided as they were walking around, they saw the school differently. They hypothesized the question, they asked the question of what they saw, who is this school for? The bulletin boards looked, they saw all these beautiful bulletin boards. Oh, a teacher made that for other teachers or for parents. And by bringing student voice in like that, it just changed-

Dr. Jon Eckert:

That's beautiful.

Max Silverman:

... both their focus and their analysis.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Oh, beautiful example. So I always like to ask before we wrap up ... You've been in education a long time. You're actually looking at the end of your time at CEL, and you have this time to look back. But I'm curious, best advice you've ever either given or received and worst advice you've either given or received. You can take it in whatever order you want.

Max Silverman:

Oh, that's a good question because I've given lots of bad advice, so we don't have to go there.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

So have I.

Max Silverman:

I think the best advice that I've most recently been given is by my colleague Casey Warden, who reminded me about moving at the speed of trust.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Yeah, that's good.

Max Silverman:

I use that with central office leaders all the time now and you can just see their heads, the nods across a room. It just helps us all because we all have this sense of urgency. So moving at the speed of trust, it's tricky, but that's probably the best advice. I use that in my internal leadership itself and in my external work. I think some bad advice that I've given in my own leadership at times, when I have a sense of urgency and a sense of, there's certain things we have to get done, in and of itself that behavior is bad advice. I think when I ... and my colleagues will probably affirm this, those moments when I lose my curiosity about the ideas they have and fall back on either things like, "Oh, that's not how we do it," or "We've tried that in the past." So it's not necessarily bad advice, but it's very unleaderly behavior on my part that I really try to pay attention to now.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

No, that's good. That's helpful. All right, last two questions. What's a good book you've read in the last year that you would recommend? It can be education related or otherwise. I always find books to be ... I enjoy books so this may be a selfish question, but what would you say?

Max Silverman:

I think a book I'm just about done with, The Four Pivots by Sean Ginwright. It's The Four Pivots: Reimagining Justice, Reimagining Ourselves. It's a fabulous book about how to be transformational rather than transactional with ourselves and then in our work.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Okay, that sounds like-

Max Silverman:

I highly recommend it, highly.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

Love it. I've not read it. I've got it written down though, so that's great.

Max Silverman:

Yeah, and Dr. Ginwright is a wonderful writer.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

That always helps. That always helps. Some people have great ideas, they just don't always know how to get them out there. So when they can do both, that's a gift. Last question, what makes you most hopeful as you wrap up your time at CEL? You already gave us, you've seen some hopeful things even in challenging contexts. But if you had to say, this is what makes me most hopeful, what would that be?

Max Silverman:

I think that I get to, because of the work I do with central office leaders around belonging and inclusion, I think there's a real, once we get beyond the ... and it's funny, we're talking on election day. It's easy to see partisan divide. Underneath that, it's hard to find somebody who doesn't want to make sure all kids have a sense of belonging. I find that across the country, across the political spectrum, it's hard to find people who in practice want to deny other people's humanity. The pessimistic side of it is, we all get them caught up in these policy and other debates that ultimately do that. But there are a lot, there's probably hundreds if not more spaces in the country today where educators are talking about very real issues of humanness and humanity for the people they serve. Again, I find that across geography, across district size, across partisan divides.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

What a great place to wrap that up. And I have to say, I appreciate your conversation because we started our time, before we jumped on officially, talking about Gonzaga absolutely dump trucking Baylor by 38 points last night. You did it in such a kind way. We broke down where some of the breakdowns were for Baylor, that was kind. And then the other piece ... and I fly to Vancouver tomorrow, so I get to go to Canada and try to explain whatever has happened in our election process.

Max Silverman:

Oh, good luck.

Dr. Jon Eckert:

So yes, I'm going to be seeking belonging and mattering in some good ways.

Max Silverman:

I think the Canadians are more nervous about what's going to happen than ...

Dr. Jon Eckert:

I was just in Toronto the week before this, and I would absolutely affirm that. But I wanted to say, one of the worst pieces of advice I received is that leadership is lonely. I find these kinds of conversations to be super helpful because leaders do make lonely decisions. But I think we have to stop that narrative that leadership is lonely because then nobody wants to step into it. Ultimately there are lonely decisions, there's no way around that. But by having colleagues and what you described with your experience with CEL ... how you got brought into it, and then for you to then step into that role and then provide that for leaders all across the country, that's a tremendous gift. So thanks for what you do.

Max Silverman:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jon:

Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dustin Benac. Excited to have him here. He's a little different kind of guest than we usually have, so we're going to start with Dustin telling us a little bit what he does here at Baylor, and then we'll get into how it connects to what we do as educators. Dustin, welcome in.

Dustin Benac:

Thanks Jon. Thrilled to be here. Love what you guys do in the School of Ed.

Jon:

Can you tell us a little bit about what you do here at Baylor? We overlap some because we're interested in leadership, we're interested in education and institutions, but can you talk a little bit about what you do here?

Dustin Benac:

Absolutely. I am the director and co-founder of the Program for the Future Church. We are a research, resource and relationship hub that's devoted to engaging the complex and emerging challenges between current and emerging Christian leaders. We do that through curriculum. We do that through convenings or gatherings, and we do that through contextual research. And one of the things that we're seeing is that even as the church and our communities are changing in incredible and dramatic ways, there is a remarkable future and we're committed to supporting that and pursuing that together.

Jon:

Love that. My question for you, obviously we care deeply about the church. That's one of the primary institutions that really supports what goes on in our country and around the world. And we have the global flourishing study that's a partnership of Harvard and Baylor, looking at what flourishing looks like, and certainly churches and faith are a big part of that, but another big part of it is schools. Where do you see K-12 schools fitting into the work that you're doing?

Dustin Benac:

I think they are an essential aspect of the flourishing of our communities and the flourishing of churches. Because one of the things we see is that the faith formation of people who inhabit churches, particularly inhabit churches over their life course emerges in those first 10 to 12 years. That certainly happens in families, but that also happens in spaces well beyond families. Sunday school classrooms, camps, schools, after school programs, baseball fields, athletic fields, gyms, art rooms, all of those are spaces where people are being formed. And a flourishing church, particularly a flourishing future church requires flourishing generations. And then secondly, it requires connections across different communities of faith. We think about our work happening at the level of the system or the ecology where we think communities need thriving congregations. They also need thriving schools, they need thriving nonprofit sectors, they need thriving entrepreneurs and the health of those realities, those sectors will only contribute to the thriving of the local church.

Jon:

A lot of that focus on community because we don't do any of these things in isolation. And so as educators, we have this great role of walking alongside people as they become more of who they're created to be as we become more of who we're created to be in the work that we do as we are formed. My question for you especially is your vantage point largely focused on the church, but also then looking at the ecology, as you use your term, which I love that term as well. What does a healthy school look like in your opinion, either currently or in the future, or maybe those are the same thing, but what's it look like to you?

Dustin Benac:

I think there are several markers of a healthy school. One, I think healthy schools require healthy leadership, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate the work you and your colleagues do is you all are equipping, resourcing and engaging healthy leaders and supporting healthy leaders across the country. That's the first thing. I think the second thing is a connection to and commitment to place. One of the things I love about education is it's one of the increasingly few institutions that still have a geographic designation. We have ISDs that are connected to particular places. And schools are places that bring people from their surrounding community to a shared gathering. Third, I think healthy schools require a healthy balance of diversity and similarity.

You have to have something that you have in common, which I think is the education of our children. And you also have to have environments where people gather around and from the various differences and particularities that they bring to these spaces. Third, you've got to have matters of trust, justice, equity. Schools are only as strong as the virtues that carry them, and our leaders are only as strong as the virtues that they possess, so you've got to have schools that are marked by integrity. And fifth and finally, I think a healthy school requires a hopeful vision for the future. We can't have a hopeful vision for our children if the leaders and the communities don't have a hopeful vision for the future.

Jon:

The country right now is somewhat polarized as we're in an election year and you hear a lot of things about separation of church and state. And a lot of times that comes into play in schools where what's allowed, what isn't allowed? In Oklahoma right now, there's mandated Bible teaching going on in public schools with a hope that that will lead to better virtue development. And that's getting a lot of push back and possibly not really being implemented because that's not been traditionally what's gone on in public schools in Oklahoma at least over the last several decades.

I'm curious to have you talk a little bit about the way you think churches and schools can work together effectively, because we also have the model of churches coming in and reading with kids and providing tutoring with kids and afterschool programs and this kind of ecology that we're all in this together and that both schools and churches serve the community. Do you have any sense of what that might look like? Not in the church state, separation wars that are out there, but in we're all part of a community, leadership as service. How do we lead in a way that serves each member of the community well?

Dustin Benac:

Yep. I love that question. I think that's part of one of the things that gets me really hopeful about the future schools and the future of churches because I think there's opportunities for real partnership here. Just a quick anecdote, I found my way into this work after doing several years of research in the Pacific Northwest. And the Pacific Northwest is a context where there's a marginal position for religious organizations. They're on the edges of society, but there's also a real history of religious entrepreneurship, that people of faith are doing new things.

Entrepreneurship is the water they swim in. And one of the things I saw there is that people of faith and churches in the Pacific Northwest, they found a way to exist on the margins of society in ways that are not anxious. They're not trying to reclaim power, they're just trying to be faithfully present. And I think that's the first step to find this meaningful partnership, is churches and people of faith can pursue meaningful partnerships with schools, public or private, not trying to control the content or control the outcome or set the table, but simply show up and be a good partner and be present. Second, that takes a lot of time.

Jon:

You're right.

Dustin Benac:

You can't just parachute in a community and expect change to happen. You've got to keep showing up. Go to the football games, go to the band concerts, show up, show up over and over and over again. And when you do that, you begin to, one, see the needs of the community and they might be different than what you think. And then secondly, you begin to earn trust. The third thing I say is be prepared to be surprised by the encounter. When I've shown up in spaces, when I've tried to be relationally, faithfully present, I go in expecting knowingly or unknowingly something from that connection. And I'm always surprised. And as a person of faith, I like to think that surprise is part of the gift of God.

Jon:

That's beautifully put. I would say I think it overlaps with our view of leadership in general, but I would go all the way back to teaching middle school students. You can't just hit middle school kids over the head with truth if you don't do it with love because they're not listening until they know that you love them and you show them that you love them by spending time with them when you're not contractually obligated to spend that time with them. And so it is that showing up. And I think that's true with adults that we lead and we work with the educators we serve all over the world. It does coming alongside listening first, being surprised by what we might learn, not coming in with solutions for people. We don't know the context.

We come in with processes. We come in with ideas for improvement. We come in with networks of people that we connect. That's Eric Ellison's main job at the Center of School Leadership. He does that even on Baylor's campus for us. And so how do we do that better? Because ultimately in the time we're in now, I don't think anybody can be that superhero solo leader. We write a lot about collective leadership at the center and what that looks like to do the work that moves towards shared goals. You do a lot of work on collaborative leadership. What kind of leadership do you see working at Baylor in churches in the ecologies? What kind of leadership do you see working? What are some attributes of that that you're encouraged by as we move forward?

Dustin Benac:

There's several different attributes. One is it's leadership that moves at the speed of trust. Collective collaborative leadership is leadership that it can't be engineered, it can't be manufactured. It takes time and it moves at the speed of trust. The second thing is this type of leadership is leadership that's carried by shared language. And I think that's one of the values of a place like Baylor or a place like the Center for School Leadership is I think one of the things you all offer are some shared language. And that allows people to partner around shared work by using the shared language because we can't assume that we mean the same thing when we talk about community or education or formation or faith.

You have to have shared language because that's the point of contact where the shared work begins. The third thing that I think is required is an ability to recognize and celebrate a diversity of leadership expressions. Leadership, particularly collaborative leadership, is carried by teams. In order to have a strong team, you need to have people who lead in different ways. In my book, Adaptive Church, I talk about this across six different modes of leading, leading as the caretaker, leading as the catalyst, leading as the connector convener, leading as the surveyor, leading as the champion, leading as the guide. An effective collaboration requires people and teams who have the diversity, the dexterity, and the variety of gifts to lead in different ways in order to respond the needs of their community.

Jon:

You talk about diversity, dexterity, and variety, and a lot of people will hear that, and say it sounds messy.

Dustin Benac:

It is.

Jon:

And my argument is leadership's always going to be messy. It's whether it's going to be messy on the front end or the back end. I'd much rather it be hashed out with diverse thinkers that bring this variety to what we do so that we better represent the communities we serve. If you're thinking in ecologies, you certainly can't, as a single person know what's going to work best for everyone in that ecosystem. That is just not going to be possible. But it takes time, which you already mentioned about relationships, but it also takes time to process things. But then at the back end, you have something that actually might work as opposed to you implementing something which churches do this all the time, "Oh, we got to grow attendance, we got to grow the budget. We got to do..." And so it just becomes this hamster wheel we jump on and then we're spinning off crazy. And in churches, you are burning human beings who get run over by that hamster wheel.

Dustin Benac:

That's exactly right. And I think it's important to make a difference between the messiness of shared and collaborative leadership and sloppiness because-

Jon:

Yes. That's a good point.

Dustin Benac:

... we don't have an excuse for being sloppy. The responsibility of leadership requires that we do it as well as we can. And part of not being sloppy is having shared language, knowing your lane, and also having good and effective strategy. It's going to be messy, it's going to be improvisational. It's not going to turn out like you thought or hoped it would, but you can be purposeful, you can be intentional, you can be strategic, you can be patient. And when those ingredients are there, the outcome is oftentimes far better than we could ever hope or imagine.

Jon:

The sloppy piece is such a great point. I think in schools, we have oversold the idea of failing forward. We've taken this Silicon Valley idea that fail fast, fail forward. No one wants to fail. And so you don't take haphazard risks, that's sloppy. You take strategic risks and Chip and Dan Heath write that the promise of risk taking is not, I don't have the exact quote, but the promise of risk taking is not success. It's learning. All right. If success were always promised for taking risks, it wouldn't be a risk. And so ultimately, how do we take the right risks? How do we take them with the right people?

How do we take them in the way that we're actually going to learn from them and then revise and improve? I've certainly taken many risks in my career where I'm like, "I'm never doing that again." That was just a flat mistake. But most of the time, whatever it is, I figure out ways that we can improve and do better the next time. And then that's where leadership is fun because you're constantly iterating and you know don't have to have it right the first time ever because we probably aren't. But it's like all we got to do is get better. And so I've quit talking about solutions because solutions sound too neat, sound too prepackaged. It's not about solutions. It's about improving, so if you are leading a dumpster fire, just put the fire out. You don't have to build the Taj Mahal yet. Get the dumpster fire out first.

Dustin Benac:

I love it.

Jon:

As we think about that, what's your greatest fear as you look ahead to churches and schools? What's the greatest fear you have right now? I know there are many fears out there. What would you say is the thing that keeps you up at night about churches and schools?

Dustin Benac:

You actually teed this up so well, Jon, because I think my greatest fear is that we wouldn't take the risk. I think we are in a moment of significant and dramatic change. The world is changing, the church is changing, how we gather is changing, what education looks like and feels like is changing. And that can be a moment of real anxiety and uncertainty. It can also be a real moment of opportunity. And my hope is that in this moment of incredible change, we will do the thoughtful, the strategic, maybe even the prayerful work of considering what are the risks that are ours to take and take them with other people. We don't have to take these risks alone, but I do think we are in a unique moment of time where there's things that we can do together that are going to build the structures, the schools, the churches that our children inhabit for a generation. And if we don't do that, I think we've missed an opportunity.

Jon:

That's well said. Before we jumped on, you mentioned a couple of books that you were reading, which I think tie into this fear and also to the hope that we can have. Would you mind sharing a couple of books? I always like for our listeners to get a couple of recommendations that might be useful that may or may not be part of a typical educator's reading list. But do you have a couple for us?

Dustin Benac:

Yeah. One of the very best books I read in the last year is a book by a Stanford psychologist, Geoffrey Cohen's Belonging, a brilliant book about the structure of connection and how to understand the need for belonging and also the strategies that can help us build cultures of belonging. Brilliant work, data-driven, translatable across cultures and across contexts, so, that's the first one. The second one is a book by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning that is about his experience surviving a concentration camp and also his theory of purpose that emerged out of his work there as a clinical psychologist. And one of the things Frankl says is that those who survived, survived because they found purpose, even purpose in suffering. And it's precisely this purpose that gave them meaning and ultimately gave them a future hope that they could imagine. Even if the circumstances were such, that it was very unlikely that they would live to see that future hope, the purpose carried them forward and gave them a reason to live.

Jon:

Well, I like the way those two books fit together in that if we're going to belong, we have to have a purpose.

Dustin Benac:

Yes.

Jon:

And that's part of what we do. And when we have a purpose, we are willing to struggle well with each other. And ultimately that's where joy is found. It's not the freedom from the struggle, it's the fuel to struggle well. And our joy comes from something deeper than our circumstances because that's where happiness lies and certainly Viktor Frankl is not talking about happiness. He's talking about where purpose can lead to joy because there's a life of meaning. And we don't have wellbeing if we don't have a purpose. And so I think the belonging piece doesn't happen unless we can do that with others because we serve a relational God and we reflect that in the ways that we interact with each other. We don't thrive by ourselves. That just doesn't happen. Love those two books. You shared your greatest fear, not taking risks, so what's your greatest hope as you look ahead for schools and churches?

Dustin Benac:

That new connections will form? I think the future of schools, the future of the church is carried by the work we do together. And one of the things that gives me great hope is that in a time of isolation, in a time of polarization, in a time where so many people do not feel like they belong, new connections are being formed every day. And that gives me great hope. That gives me great hope for the work that we do in the program where people come through our events, come through our courses, come through our programs, and they come out saying, "I'm more connected with other people." That's my hope about Baylor, is we have incredible students who come through our classes, and they certainly leave with a degree, but they also leave with a lot of connections. And that's my hope for churches, is that churches are finding a way to be faithfully present right where they are that is simply holding out the space for connection. Connection with others, connections with themselves, and connection with God.

Jon:

And that's why it's such a blessing to be part of Christian Research One University where we can convene these things, create those connections across communities, study them, and try to amplify the good work that schools and churches are doing, because there's a lot of great work going on out there. We just don't always hear about it. And so how do we accelerate that? Well, let's bring people together. Let's do it together in a way that creates connection and joy and then amplify it.

Dustin Benac:

That's right.

Jon:

And so that's the blessing. Well, thank you for all you do at Baylor through this, the program for the Future Church. Thanks for being with us and always love allies like you at Baylor, so thanks for taking the time.

Dustin Benac:

Thanks, Jon. Thrilled to be here.

In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Lindsay Jones from CAST to discuss her work in inclusive education and Universal Design for Learning (UDL). Jones shares insights into how UDL transforms learning environments by focusing on student agency and creating flexible, supportive spaces for all learners. The conversation covers practical examples of UDL in action. Jones also reflects on the opportunities and challenges for UDL globally and her optimism about its impact on education.

Transcript:

Jon Eckert:

All right, today we're here with Lindsay Jones from CAST. She is one of the more interesting people I've met in the last couple of years, and so I wanted to just jump in. First of all, welcome, Lindsay.

Lindsay Jones:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Jon Eckert:

I want to start with a new question that I've never asked anybody, and I'm going to kick it off here, but I always think it's interesting since most of our listeners are educators to ground who you are in your first, last, best, worst experience in schools. So you spend a lot of time in schools and supporting schools. So what's your first memory, your last memory, your best memory, and your worst memory. So we'll do that by way of introduction. Take it away, Lindsay.

Lindsay Jones:

Wow. Okay, so you may have to help remind me of that order.

Jon Eckert:

Sure.

Lindsay Jones:

My first memory and a lot of my memories are going to center around my mom, who was an educator, a special educator for many, many years, special ed director. My first memory was when she came in and started... I was in a public school in Avon Lake, Ohio. I was in second grade, and she came in and started helping and teaching some extra content. And so it was a huge memory for me because she was there and it felt so special and I felt very special that my mom was there and I felt like I got a little viewpoint in the behind the scenes and that was exciting. So that was first.

Best was eighth grade. I had a phenomenal history teacher, and I can still remember the project that I wrote, and it makes me now think of Universal Design for Learning. I had a lot of choice in the project. I wrote it on the history of vigilantism in the United States. It was part of American history and going west, and it's amazing to me. I remember so vividly. So many parts of that I don't remember, but I remember the paper. I remember some of the materials that we did and seeing a play about it and all of the ways that that teacher really brought it to life. So let's see, first, best, worst, and that, and last?

Jon Eckert:

Yes. Yeah, that's what you have left, worst and last.

Lindsay Jones:

Okay. Worst, I'll say two things. Being bored a lot. Not engaging, that's worst. Just feeling like I'm just going through the paces. But a really formative worst one for me is my mother, when I was in third through fifth grade, also living in Ohio, she was teaching in Lakewood, Ohio, and I was going to school near there and she was teaching in a self-contained preschool special ed program in a public school. And I can remember I would go there before school every day after school every day. I met all the students in that room. I was probably in third grade when I started going there. There were different multi-ages. And I then went, I had a day off at my school and like many other kids, my mom let me hang around her school that day. And with a teacher in regular ed at that time, general ed. This would've been a long time ago, the early '80s.

And I can remember hanging around in a regular ed third grade classroom for the whole day and never seeing my mom's students, never seeing my mom, never seeing anyone with a disability. And that really struck me. Where are they? They are not here. They were not a part of that community. And I think that was a really formative experience that drives why I do the work I do today focused on inclusion. So that's probably also my worst because it wasn't ideal. It wasn't the way it should be, but it really, really formed me. So in some ways it's my best in many ways too, I guess. And then my last is law school. I went to law school. That was my last.

Jon Eckert:

That puts an imprint on you.

Lindsay Jones:

I practiced as an attorney for many years in Arizona. And my last schooling experience personally was law school. And it was a shock. It was like being dropped into an ice bath. But I loved it. Actually, I really learned a lot. It was such an interesting... The Socratic method itself has interesting parts to it. It can be really very engaging, but it's a challenging setting.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. Well, and I think one of the things that law school does that I've always admired is it teaches you how to think. And so I think there's some value in that. Now, the process of learning that can be pretty painful and you can get some tough professors who are maybe not that skilled at how to teach or how to make it accessible, but if you navigate through it, you come out with a set of skills that are pretty valuable. So it's pretty great. Well, hey, I actually enjoyed that because there's a lot of jumping off points there for what you do now. So you've already hit on what is normally my next question is what brought you to this work? So talk a little bit about what you do now, why you got out of the legal profession and into the work you're doing now based on some of the things that you experienced with your mother in schools and some of the other pieces that you've already discussed.

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah, so my mom, who, as I said, special ed teacher, local special ed director, all the things, special ed member of the Council for Exceptional Children, spoke, ended up working as a independent consultant, expert on ADHD, writing books and said to me always, "Don't become a teacher. Don't do it. Be a lawyer." And thinking now back on that, I think that was largely because she was a real activist as a person for inclusion, a real activist for social justice around disability and felt powerless sometimes with the limitations put on her position. So loved educators, was a model in my mind, a wonderful educator, a teacher's teacher, but just really felt like there were limits and she wanted to make a bigger difference.

So I actually ultimately, did go to law school and thought, "I'm never getting into education. I'm staying out of the family business. What in the world?" But when I got my first job at a law firm, I happened to join a firm in Phoenix, Arizona that represented most of the school districts in the state. And I had sat my uncle and my aunt, also special educators, lifelong. I'd sat at so many tables listening to like IEP, behavior implementation plan, all of it, that I knew it. I knew those things. I don't even know how I knew those things. I never took an education law class. So I started though, being drawn into that work. I represented public school districts and I focused a lot on special education matters. I took lots of cases all the way, and I've been in three day IEP meetings and that was a challenging... I did the first 504 due process hearing in the state of Arizona because they just didn't really have those before the 2000s.

And then I saw lots of the same problems over and over, and I thought, "Boy, I'd really like to work on these from a national level." And that drew me to go to work for the Council for Exceptional Children in DC where I live now. That is the organization of the professional learning association of special educators across the US. And that was a phenomenal experience. I worked there for four years. And then I decided to move to the National Center for Learning Disabilities, also working with parents and families, again, from a national role on legislation.

And then I was so excited to be able to join CAST where I work today, a nonprofit organization that invented something called Universal Design for Learning, UDL. And it's a way for me to influence policy and try to make a difference in the way our laws are created, but also to, in a more real, tangible way, we work with educators in classrooms around the world. And we work with authors to push the field forward, and we have research that we're conducting. So it's just a deeper way to be able to work on inclusion and those issues.

Jon Eckert:

Such a great introduction. And I do have to say the three-day IEP meeting, I don't think I've been in a three-hour one. And those are painful. So the individualized education plan, great idea, but when they get down on paper or try to get them to paper, it's tough. I also have to say that what you do with UDL is so transformative all around the world. And so I know we were at an international convening where they were discussing the 250 million kids worldwide that don't have access to schools and how many people knew UDL and knew you in so many different countries. It was pretty powerful to see the people coming up and talking to you about how that we do this well because at the Center, we're all about supporting education leaders so that they can serve each student well. And that feels like the whole mission of UDL.

How do we reach each kid? Not all kids, but each kid, because each kid comes to the learning differently. And that's the beauty of education I've been in for 29 years. I did not avoid education, but I didn't have a parent who was an educator. So who knows what would've happened if that would've been the... And I would say our work is infinitely interesting and always challenging because the only thing we know when we're standing in a classroom with a bunch of students is we're the only one that learns the way we do. And so that's where UDL is so powerful because it gives you principles for how to think through it. And you're vigilante project that you did in eighth grade had so many of the hallmarks of UDL. So I'd love for you to just dig a little bit deeper into some of the opportunities and challenges you see right now for UDL around the world and maybe particularly the United States as well, if you want to dive down there.

Lindsay Jones:

Sure. I would say around the world, the number one challenge really is some basic access, as you would know better than I do, Jon, but in terms of at the core of UDL is assistive technology that's started by nine Harvard neuroscientists, working with nine students with really significant cognitive disabilities and saying, "Maybe tech and being flexible... Maybe the person isn't broken, maybe it's the system." And in fact, they proved that's right. And now that system and some of the drawbacks of the system for people in different places around the world is probably the biggest challenge. The biggest opportunity though, I think especially in the United States right now is EdTech is throughout schools. It's overwhelming. It's almost too much in schools, but it does that same principle of it gives us more of an inherent understanding that we all use it differently. The way I use my iPhone or whatever my device is, is probably different than yours, and you don't judge me for that. I don't judge you. I don't even know how... And so that is a freeing thing that I think is a big opportunity.

And UDL, it's a design thinking framework. It just helps you think, "How can I find barriers to leaning that I don't see?" And I think that tech is a way to help us make environments more flexible. It's not the only way, we don't need it, but it can make that environment more flexible and it can also reduce the stigma of difference. The stigma that I saw when I felt my mother's class was down a dark hall. They weren't included. They were very separate. Tech, we're all using it. And that's, I think, a great opportunity for us to think about universal design for learning and how we can create those environments that are flexible and dynamic and individualized.

Jon Eckert:

And I love the connection to design thinking because at the end of the day, that's using technology to humanize interaction. It's not replacing the human, it's accentuating the human connection we can make through it as we design solutions that move us all further forward. And that has to be individualized. So I still think, and I think this is potentially something that's really prevalent in US schools, people believe that struggle is a sign of weakness where in fact, struggle is part of learning. And learning is productive struggle. So everybody needs different tools to help them struggle well. And so I think particularly coming out of Covid, we've had this shift in that well-being is freedom from struggle, and that can't be the case. And what I love about UDL is it gets kids into that zone of proximal development where, here's what I can do on my own, here's what I can do with some assistive technology, here's what I can do with some choice, here's what I can do with a more advanced peer.

There's all these places where there are these supports that come in that humanize the interaction. So that's where I'm most hopeful about UDL and where I see things going because we have more tools than we ever have. Now, if we just use those tools in this cast a wide net, throw at every kid, hopefully we catch every kid and you know kids are going to fall through the net, that's a problem. But where we have educators who are deployed with these tools to meet kids' needs, who are then allowing kids' choice, allowing kids opportunities to collaborate and making sure each kid is able to contribute, that's where I see things being hopeful. Do you have any of those kinds of stories where you're like, "Yeah, here I've seen UDL really make a difference in the lives of kids." Is there anything that jumps to mind?

Lindsay Jones:

Absolutely, and that's exactly what it is. So we just updated our guideline. Guidelines are a tool we use to help people implement it. There's just things to prompt your thinking about as design your environment. We updated them and the focus now is agency, learner agency. It's always been about what you just described. We know the kids are leaving school. And right now today, you and I probably are having to learn more about artificial intelligence than we ever... Maybe you knew a lot. I know nothing. So now I'm completely learning about it and I'm relying on all the ways I learned how to learn. And that is what we're trying to make sure those kids are learning so that when they leave, they know, "Oh, I feel confident. I may not know it. I'm going to struggle, but here's what I can do to learn it." That's the goal. That's learner agency.

And so what I would say, there's a lot of great examples of that around, but one of the ones that I think really just resonates for me, there's a school here in the District of Columbia that we've been working with. They have a model UDL demonstration classroom, which they're showing to others, and they're bringing UDL throughout that school and hopefully through the other schools in the District of Columbia schools. And when you go in, there's a part of you, I think... I'm a parent. I'm not a teacher, as you know, I'm a parent though. And there's a part of me that I will say, I was like, "We're just going to let fifth graders make choices about what they want? I've had a fifth grader. That seems scary to me. I'm not sure. What is this going to look like?"

And I went into this fifth grade classroom, and it is so interesting to see what and how that's really intentionally designed by those educators. Several different areas are happening in the room. And one of the things that stood out to me, Jon, is those kids in that room know if they're asked a question... I watched an interaction between a teacher and a student where the teacher asked the student a question about the material, and the student kept trying to answer it and was struggling. The teacher was not giving the answer. And then finally the student said, "Oh, I'm going to go to my resources. I'm going to go get... And they walked over to several different resources they had available, got the answer, came back so proud, so confident.

And it was so painful for those moments of watching that child struggle, that teachers maybe call it "wait time." It is painful to sit there and watch that. You want to just say, "Lincoln, it's Abe Lincoln." But my God, when I saw that student be really actualized, find something, come back. And that is a very micro way of talking about what was a really complex interaction with some really skilled educators and just incredible kids, but it wasn't out of the norm, and it did more than one thing at once. It taught the student the answer, and it made that student engaged in a way of like, "I am proud. I did this." And that's good. We need that because it won't always be easy, so you got to draw on something. So yeah, I think there's a lot of examples like that that are exciting and empowering.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, that's great. I love that example. And I love the idea that it's in a model classroom because I think for educators, they need to be able to see it happening. And we need educators who are doing this well to be able to spread their expertise. And so in our research, we find one of the most powerful predictors of how a school will improve is whether or not a lot of peer observation's happening. It's not evaluation or judgment, but it's learning from other educators who are doing this hard work and letting kids, requiring kids, giving them the opportunity to struggle because there's so much more joy in finding out it's Abraham Lincoln when you go with your own agency and find those in the sources than having someone else just tell you the answer. And that just breeds learned helplessness. Just like, "Hey, somebody's going to tell me anyway, so why would I have any agency in the first place?"

The other thing I wanted to say, I teach a class in a half an hour. And so anytime I go in, even to my undergrad or grad classes that I'm teaching, when I am the least well prepared, I lecture. When I am the best prepared, it's this interactive engagement where student agency is part of it, and there's meaning. And I always pull in student responses from the night before. I always read the responses that come in by 10:00 PM and I put those in and I let that direct the class. But that takes a lot of time. And so it's just, if somehow that time hasn't been set aside, the class just isn't as good. I can manage it. I can control it. I did this as a fifth grade teacher, as a seventh grade science teacher. You can control it, but that's sometimes by boring kids into submission, which is what you mentioned. I mean, just because a class is quiet doesn't mean any learning's happening. And so that's not the goal.

Now, obviously a class that's in chaos where kids aren't safe and all that, but those baselines have to be set up. But in that model classroom, I'm sure so much work has gone into how to help students make good choices, that I would 100% trust those kids to make good choices. And when they're not, you just say, "Hey, we're outside the parameters we set. Now, move back in". Is that an accurate read of that classroom or other model classrooms you see?

Lindsay Jones:

Yes. And I think your critical point is it's not about vertigo of possibility to students. It's about scaffolding. You start to make choices. You have a smaller number. What are they? You're learning about them, you're reflecting on them. I think that's really critical. You said that and you talked about it, and I just wanted to pull it out because yeah, that's right. That's right.

Jon Eckert:

I love that.

Lindsay Jones:

That classroom was fun. It was amazing. Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. I love that. I never heard that. I've never heard that phrase vertigo of possibility. But yes, that sounds like anarchy, what we want. And I think kids feel safer where they know where the boundaries are, and then they know how to move, and then they scaffold and they build, and then they can do amazing stuff. And that's when teaching gets really fun because it's not about the teacher anymore, it's about the learner. And we're all learning together. So I always like to end with a lightning round. So I know you're super busy, so if you've taken time to read a book that you would recommend, it's got to be pretty good because busy people don't just read beach reads all the time. So is there a great book that you would recommend? It could be education related or not, but is there anything you've read in the last year that you would recommend to those listening?

Lindsay Jones:

It is. And it's called Radical Inclusion. And yeah, have you read it?

Jon Eckert:

I've heard of it. I have not read it yet, but it's been recommended to me already, but go ahead.

Lindsay Jones:

It's so interesting, and I'm so sorry, I have to follow up with the name of the author. He's an education minister in Sierra Leone.

Jon Eckert:

Wow.

Lindsay Jones:

And it is phenomenal. It is super interesting. It is well written. It's thought provoking. Yeah, he spoke actually, we saw-

Jon Eckert:

I was going to say he was at the convening. Yeah, he was on a panel. Yeah, so his name is Ori Brafman.

Lindsay Jones:

Thank you, yes.

Jon Eckert:

And it's What the Post-9/11 World Should Have Taught Us About Leadership. It came out in 2018. Is that it?

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah?

Lindsay Jones:

Radical Inclusion. And it's about the way they're reframing in Sierra Leone, including individual... They're starting with everything in terms of radical inclusion, voting, everything.

Jon Eckert:

I love that.

Lindsay Jones:

People with disabilities and a barrier-free environments.

Jon Eckert:

Wow. That's beautiful. All right, so then what is the worst piece of advice you've ever given or received in your work?

Lindsay Jones:

Oh, my God, so many.

Jon Eckert:

I'm sorry.

Lindsay Jones:

I know, it's terrible. But I actually think one of the worst pieces of advice that I was ever given was that you could not be a parent and a full-time attorney.

Jon Eckert:

Oh, wow.

Lindsay Jones:

Or a full-time anything.

Jon Eckert:

Wow.

Lindsay Jones:

And that has not proven to be true. And it was a really bad piece of advice because it made me worry for years. And it was silly that I did that, so.

Jon Eckert:

Wow. All right, that's helpful. That's a helpful reframe of bad advice. What's the best piece of advice you've either given or received?

Lindsay Jones:

A wonderful attorney I worked with, the best piece of advice was, "Be bold." This amazing guy, Dick Siegel. And then my other favorite one is a Matisse quote, Henry Matisse the painter. I have it on my board over here. "Don't wait for inspiration. It comes while working."

Jon Eckert:

Well said. I love that. I did not know that Matisse quote, but that's a great add and obviously, you got to be bold to do the work, so those two reminders go well together. All right, so as we wrap up, what's your most hopeful perspective on where we're heading in education makes you most optimistic?

Lindsay Jones:

I am incredibly optimistic about inclusive education. I meet people every single day who want to make that happen. And they see, when they use Universal Design for Learning or whatever method they're using to make learning more inclusive, they get to something you just referred to, which I call the magic moments. They come up to me and tell me, "Oh, my God, this happened. I saw learning. I remembered why I went into teaching." That experience of watching someone really learn, learning with them, that I am so lucky because so many people share those types of things with me. And it just means I feel like I'm so hopeful I want to tell everyone about this and help them to be using it.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah, what a beautiful example. I think it's what gets educators up every morning. It's not the paycheck. It's going to be those magic moments. And once you've had a couple, they're addictive. You keep coming back for more. And that's a beautiful way to wrap up. Well, Lindsay, thank you for the great work you do at CAST, for UDL, for your leadership and just taking the time to be with us.

Lindsay Jones:

Yeah, thank you so much.

Jon Eckert:

Today we are here with Rachel Johnson, a friend that we've made through mutual friends in the UK who's doing amazing work. And I just want to jump right in to what you're learning and then we'll back into more of what you do. So what are you learning through PiXL? So you can give us a quick introduction to what PiXL is and then what you're learning from the leaders that you're supporting.

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah. So PiXL stands for Partners in Excellence. We work with two and a half thousand schools across the UK. And what we're learning is how important leadership is in the conversation in school improvement. So we believe in improving life chances and outcomes for every young person irrespective of background or status or finance.

But behind all of that is the ability for brilliant people in schools to lead well. And that's the conversation people want to have now more and more than perhaps they ever have because people are fascinated with how they can be better, how they can thrive, what's stopping them thrive. And that is the attention that I've been giving a lot of my work recently around that issue.

Jon Eckert:

So love that mission. We always push at the center for moving from some students to all students and now to each student, what does it mean to do that for each student so that thriving for each student is powerful. In order to have those thriving students, you have to have thriving leaders. So what are some of the things, I think you mentioned you have 3,200 people in leadership courses, what are some of those takeaways that are keeping people from thriving that you're finding?

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah, we're finding a lot of very common things. And actually it doesn't matter what level they are in school leadership, it's the same issues. So things like people pleasing, which is getting in the way of leadership and decision-making, not being able to hold a boundary, sometimes not having a boundary. So there is no difference between work and life. There is no stopping. We just carry on going. I think that's a real issue.

We're finding people not really knowing are structured to have difficult conversations or as I like to call them, crucial conversations. They shouldn't be difficult, but the lack of confidence in having those conversations. And then I think other things like how to create buy-in, how to get momentum, how to have that very delicate balance as Jim Collins calls it, between the brutal facts and the unwavering hope.

So what does that actually look like on the ground? How can I do both at the same time without going for hopium where you're drugging people on things that can't actually happen or being so honest and brutal that nobody wants to follow you because it sounds so depressing? So what does the reality of that look like in school leadership? And what we are finding is across nearly three and a half thousand people on our leadership courses, they're all struggling with those kind of issues.

Jon Eckert:

No, that's powerful. I think one of the questions that I'm always asking leaders because it's a hard one is, and I think it comes from Patrick Lencioni, but I'm not sure. It could be from another theorist, they all start to run together a bit. I don't think it's John Maxwell, I don't think it's Jim Collins, but is for who are you willing to make enemies? What ideas are you willing to make enemies over? So what are those things that like, "Hey, this is a non-negotiable for me."

And I think a lot of educators don't think about that because we have a people pleasing sense of what we want to do. And so that's a really hard conversation to have because I agree, we tend to lean toward hopium. I think that's a great term for what we do. And so how do you get people into those crucial conversations? I like that reframe as well. But how do you get them into that when you know that there's kind of a natural resistance among a lot of educators to those kinds of conversations?

Rachel Johnson:

It is really difficult, but not having the conversation doesn't make the issue go away. And I think as soon as people realize, "It's actually making me miserable. My department is underperforming, therefore young people are underperforming all because I'm not courageous enough to have the conversation." And what we find using Susan Scott's model of fierce conversations is when you give them that seven-part model of how to have the conversation in one minute where you say your peace but you stay in adult, as Transactional Analysis would call it.

So you're not giving it a kind of sly interpretation. You're not giving a mean tone to your voice. You're being absolutely clear and absolutely kind, but absolutely straight, then people respond usually really well. But I think one of the things that is most disconcerting for leaders and educators is you have to listen to what the other person says. It isn't just about us delivering our truth and how we perceive things.

It's about being quiet long enough to hear what they're saying and maybe more importantly what they're not saying. And so it's fascinating to me that what is stopping us sometimes is the courage. But this is really affecting our schools. And certainly in the UK, in a recent survey that one of our big agencies did called Teacher Tapp, 64% of teachers said they had worked or did work in a toxic environment in school. That's a lot of people calling their environment where we should be seeing young people thrive, and our leaders and our teachers are saying it's toxic.

So something's going wrong somewhere. And what stops us dealing with this I think is the lack of courage and the lack of tools to be able to know how to approach it, which is why that's where we put our weight in the practical tools that can help people unlock this. And people say things like, "We feel liberated, transformed. It's like a weight off and we feel like we can do it." And that is the kind of feedback we get regularly. And I think that is really very, very important that people are helped to do these difficult things.

Jon Eckert:

Really, really good stuff there. It reminded me of two things in what you said because you've shared a lot. And I love how much we've into right here off the bat. The book High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. I don't know if you've seen that book. It came out in 2021, so it's been out for a while. She introduces this concept, which I think is what you're getting at in that one minute conversation a little bit in the way we listen.

So it's not her idea again, but this is where I came to the idea. It's the idea of looping, that when you're in conflict with someone, the key is when you're receiving the feedback from the person where they're telling you how they feel, where they're upset, where they're disagreeing with you, you have to listen, then you have to distill what's being said.

Then you have to check for understanding and then question, "Did I get it right?" So that you're repeating back. Because I think sometimes, at least in the United States, some of the conflict is due to poor communication, and that looping provides an opportunity to correct that communication error and it's a form of empathy because it's taking on that perspective, did I hear you right?

Now, just active listening, you can really alienate people with active listening skills without being genuinely curious. So that's one of the things when you're doing that, you can't do it in a formulaic way that feels like you're just jumping through hoops because that's really alienating to the person doing it. Does that square with what you found or am I thinking about something differently than you are?

Rachel Johnson:

I think what's fascinating is that, and this is what I do really for my job now, is I take lots of different things like that from High Conflict from Chris Voss and his hostage negotiation techniques, crisis communication that we have over here with a fierce conversation and I kind of mush it all together in one model.

And so what all of these people are saying, including Nancy Kline who's written brilliant work on listening and thinking is we mustn't overdo it when we talk to people. We mustn't kind of interpret what they're saying and then tell them what they're thinking. We have to ask great questions. We have to be comfortable with silence and let the silence do the heavy lifting. Most of us are not comfortable with that. We have to summarize like you've said and say at the end, "Is that right?"

And if the person says, "No, that's not right," that's the opening of the conversation, not the end of it. That's when we say, "Okay, great. What did I not summarize well? What have I not understood? Tell me?" We've got to be more curious and less judgmental. But because I think educators are so used to making judgments, because that's literally our job a lot of the time is making judgments on grades, on behavior, on progress, to not make judgments on fellow adults, it's sometimes really hard.

Jon Eckert:

I always say educators are way more gracious with students than they are with each other. And-

Rachel Johnson:

Or themselves.

Jon Eckert:

Yeah. Oh. And typically that lack of graciousness to others is because of the lack of graciousness to self. I think one of the key points you said, and you mentioned earlier in tone when you asked that question, "What did I not get right?" You can say, "What did I not get right?" In a very curious way. Or, "What did I not get right?" With the eye roll.

And then you've either closed off the conversation or you've opened it. And I think the tone and the facial expression goes a long way to that, which is why I think we have to have this interpersonal connection. If you're doing this over text or you're doing it over email, it's pretty doomed to fail. I don't know. Would you agree with that, that this has to be kind of face-to-face as much as possible?

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah. I think a lot happens on Zoom these days or on Teams, which is difficult. And I think that is manageable if you get your tone right, if you get your eye contact right. I think one of the most damaging things in communication with anybody is the not listening, as you've mentioned, and the tone. So making it sound like a judgment. But the other thing I think is really difficult is when we speak in ulterior transactions. So the conversation we're having is not the conversation we're thinking. And people can smell it a mile off, can't they?

I think of all kinds of situations at home where I say to my children like, "Oh, did you not have time to tidy your bedroom?" And what I'm actually saying is, "You're absolute slobs. You round here making a mess of my house." And they can hear the criticism and then they say, "Are you having a go at me mum?" And then I go, "No, I don't know what you're talking about." And that's dishonest. And I think we fall into that a few times when we are not courageous enough to have the real conversation. So I think that's another trap we can fall into.

Jon Eckert:

Right. I think I had a couple of those conversations with a daughter and a wife this weekend potentially, so that I need to go back and do some correcting. So thank you for that. One other thing you mentioned earlier was, and I think it's a chapter in, I think it's in your first book, about getting buy-in. One of the things that I've been pushing on here, and I'm curious to hear if there's a cultural difference here potentially.

I found Gen Zs and millennials in the US, they do not want to buy-in to things because it sounds like an idea is being sold that they're just supposed to get on board with. And they don't do that. And I almost say that to their credit because they want to co-own what they're doing. And so buy-in is not something that they're interested in. They want to own it with you sometimes in ways that make it way better if we do that. Do you find that in the UK that there's less interest in buying in and more of an interest in kind of co-owning the work? Or is that still something that works relatively well in the UK, trying to get buy-in?

Rachel Johnson:

I think you're absolutely right, and I think this new generation are very different and I think they don't want to do it the way we did it. We wore tiredness and exhaustion like a trophy, like a medal. "Look how knackered I am, look how late I was up doing all my work." They look at that and go, "I don't want that. I want to have a sabbatical. I want to have a life. I want to go to the gym. I want to do what I want to do." So I think the way we are talking about buy-in needs to change. But I also think the way we get buy-in needs to change.

We, I think have thought buy-in means, "Here's my idea, here's what we are doing, join me in what I'm doing." And that isn't really genuine buy-in. Buy-in is saying, "What is the problem we're trying to solve? Let's get people around the table, listen to really healthy conflict within a boundary where we feel safe to be able to disagree." All that psychological safety stuff by Amy Edmondson, it's crucial. It's not easy, but it's crucial. And then I think people do buy-in when they're heard. I think all these things we're talking about are linked. If I'm ignored, I'm not going to buy-in whether it's a great idea or not, because you're not hearing me. So I think we have to create more time to be heard and to hear.

But I think one of the issues we have in leadership, particularly in education is we're always in such a rush. That hurry-up driver like, "Let's get everything done yesterday driver," can stop us really engaging and listening. And so where we can go fast, we sometimes do, and I think we lose a lot in that, especially this new generation who want to be heard, want to think things through, want to be well-researched. Great, that can really benefit us, but we have to give it time.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and again, leadership's always going to be messy and it can either be messy on the front end where you all own, where you're going together or it's going to be messy on the back end. So I'd much rather have it be messy on the front end.

That just takes some patience and some ability to avoid falling victim to the tyranny of the urgent where we constantly throw one change after another at people in a way that doesn't actually produce what we want because we're too impatient to see it happen.

So I'm curious how you got to this work. So this amazing work that you're doing through PiXL, which we can get more into PiXL in a little bit, but you personally, how did you end up writing these books, doing the podcasts, building out being a catalyst at PiXL to do this kind of work with leaders, but where did that come from?

Rachel Johnson:

So I think it started fairly young really when I was, my dad led a church and he was a leader in schools and so was my mom. So I watched all of that all of my life. But I was kind of old before my age really, and I always wanted to lead something. So I did Sunday school when I was 10, teaching three-year olds. I always took on more responsibility. And so what I wanted when I was 13 and 14 was to work out what does leadership look like? How can I be a better version of me?

How can I make change happen? And apart from reading people that you've mentioned, like John Maxwell, there wasn't an awful lot for people my age. And so I never had anything age appropriate. So I read all the adult stuff. And I was looking back at my old journals actually yesterday. I was clearing out the loft and I look in my journals at me at 13 and go, "There she is, there's the person I am now.

There, I can see her so clearly when I look." But it wasn't usual back then. And so I was a bit different and did different things, but I was absolutely committed to leadership. And so from that point on really, wherever I was I wanted to lead. And it wasn't that I was bothered about promotion or position or title or money. I'm not bothered about any of those things.

I want to go where I can be to make the biggest difference. And so for me, leadership is where you make the biggest difference, where you could have the agency to make the difference. And for me, that has become the driving force really to try and do good in the world, to try and help people create their own change. So yes, that's where it started, very young.

Jon Eckert:

Love that. And so now at PiXL, what do you try to do organizationally? You gave us a little bit of what PiXL stands for, but how are you doing that and what different avenues in different countries? I know you have a number of ways you're trying to serve leaders who want to become the kind of leaders you wanted to become as a young person.

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah. So we do conferences, we did big conferences in the UK and those are hugely attended. We work with different types of leaders. We have two podcasts, PiXL Pearls, which are just 10 minutes leadership reflection. So not heavy, but just a moment of reflection to think about our own leadership. And then we have the PiXL leadership book club where we take non-educational school books because that's another really important thing of mine, to look outside of education, not always within.

And so I interviewed two school leaders about a non-educational leadership book and how they've applied those messages into their context. And that's the kind of thing I'm interested in. I'm interested in looking at what other people in the world are doing and how we can take that from marketing or that from branding or that from hostage negotiation and how we can turn our schools around based on the lessons that've been learned elsewhere.

So that's become a really big thing. Now I write all kinds of things on that. The books which I wrote that two have come out already, the chapters in those are all of the things that I asked our leaders, "What do you struggle with?" And that's what they said. And so I wrote the chapters for them really to try and help us all get a little bit more unstuck. Because we all get stuck and sometimes it's too difficult to find a great big book and read all the way through it when you haven't got time.

So it's really short, bite-sized chunks to help get us unstuck. And so with that and working and with how we have resources and strategies, a whole range of things to help school leaders get the support they need. But I think one of the most important things we've just started doing is named after the book, we have something called Time to Think where leaders are able to book time with my team to just think a few ideas.

We're not going to talk, they're going to book 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. And that time is for them to talk through their ideas, for us to ask questions to help them get clarity, but for them to leave more empowered than they came in. And what school leaders are telling us is they don't have enough time to think.

It happens on holidays, in the mornings, in the middle of the night. And it shouldn't happen then, it should happen in working hours too. But sometimes people need a bit of a helping hand to get there. So that's one of the most exciting things we're doing at the minute, creating that time to think and walking with people as they do that.

Jon Eckert:

I love that. I tell people when they start masters or doctoral programs at Baylor that the biggest gift we're giving you is time to think through what you're doing with the kinds of books that you're talking about. I totally agree, we need to look at education, but we need to look beyond education. So I love that conversation you're having with school leaders about books.

Everything you described from the PiXL Pearls to everything else is trying to give people this catalyzing force to spend more time thinking and just carving out that space is a huge gift. So I think you mentioned that you primarily work in the UK, but that you have some connection into 46 different countries. Are there things you're seeing that feel like they work cross-culturally, like, "Hey, everyone is dealing with this." Because I know most of our listeners are in the United States and we can spend way too much time navel-gazing at our challenges and opportunities here.

I'm wondering those conversations that you've had where they identify challenges that leaders have, are there any things there that you're like, "Hey, this feels like a common challenge. It does not matter where it is. This is..." Maybe it's the Time to Think, but if it's something other than that as well. What are some of those challenges you're seeing that cut across contexts?

Rachel Johnson:

Well, how I would kind of evidence that really is it's the podcasts that have gone all over the world in different countries. And we haven't really pushed those out. We've had them in the UK and they've gone everywhere through Apple or Spotify. But the ones that are most listened to, that's what's really fascinating. The biggest episodes are Dare to Lead with Brené Brown. So clearly if that's our leading episode, it's because people don't have courage like we've touched upon.

The other one that is massive is the People Pleasing one, which is based on a book by Emma Reid Terrell called Please Yourself and is around the real problems of people pleasing. That's been another massive hitter. And then the third one, which has been a really big hitter, is based on Cal Newport's work on Deep Work and Time To Think.

So if that's the three places where people are going across all of the people who listen to our podcasts. And I think in total there's about 195,000 downloads now maybe. I think that says something about where people's attention is, that's what they're craving. And I think we should listen to that because I think these things are quite deep-rooted and I think people don't find solutions to how to handle those three things either.

Jon Eckert:

Well, I love Brené Brown, I love Cal Newport. I need to read the people pleasing book, so.

Rachel Johnson:

Wonderful.

Jon Eckert:

I'm getting good recommendations. Yeah. The Slow Productivity by Cal Newport that just came out is kind of the latest manifestation. I still think Deep Work is his best book, but Slow Productivity I've worked into some of my classes because I do think this idea and his premise there is that we do less things, work at a natural pace and obsess over quality.

That's how we provide the human value that is going to become increasingly value as AI and other things automate other pieces. It's what are we uniquely suited to build and do? And that's really to me, the extension of deep work. That's the critical component. And you have to have time to think because-

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah, you have to have time to think. And then you kind of think, why are we not doing deep work? Why are we overstretched? And I think it comes down to what I would call now toxic productivity. I think when you have a profession full of people who love to be efficient and love to-do lists and tick things off and feel great about themselves, the danger is we become addicted to productivity.

We can't rest, we can't stop, we can't switch off. We have to be doing something productive. We even monetize our hobbies for goodness's sake because we can't do them for free, because that's a waste of time. It is quite astonishing. And we are obsessed with adding things, not taking things away. So I don't speak to many leaders who say, "We're reducing our efforts by half because we don't think it's working. So these five things are going and these five things will replace them." They should add more things. No wonder we're all frazzled, so.

Jon Eckert:

Well, and social media has turned us into the product. So our attention is what is demanded and that is what is being sold. And that's new and I think devastating for especially adolescents who are coming into leadership, those 13-year-olds that dreamed about leading the way you do. "Oh, I can do that through my followership on this as I sell products for someone else." And so you become a conduit for other corporations to grab other people through you.

It's not real leadership. And so I worry about, I do not want this to happen, but my email box, I worry that I will be getting AI-generated emails into the box. I will then have AI-generating responses, and I'll just be a spectator watching AI talk to AI which by definition, Darren Speaksma says this all the time. AI is consensus because all it is scraping from large language models.

It is not wisdom. To get wisdom, you need the human. And that's the point of deep work. How do we pursue joy through truth and love? How do we do this and this? And AI just, that's not what AI is designed to do. It can summarize, it can collect, it can scrape. But that's the part that I'm like, "Oh." And that's the life-giving work.

And so Greg McCown, UK guy, Essentialism, that was the book. And then it became how do I? I've reduced all the small rocks out of the jar and I've just got big rocks and now the rocks are too much. And I feel like that's where we're at. So I love his work as well. So based on all that, those common challenges that we see, where do you see hope? Where are you most hopeful?

Rachel Johnson:

I'm hopeful that people want the conversation. I'm hopeful that in a room of thousands of leaders, I can say, "Put your hand up if you're a people pleaser." I've been a recovering people pleaser since 2020. I often say to people, I went into recovery in March 2020 when I read that book, Please Yourself by Emma Reid Terrell. And thought, "Oh my goodness, I don't want to be that." She says, you can either be an authentic person or a people pleaser.

You cannot be both. And I was really convicted by it because I thought, I want to be the best kind of leader, but if I'm people pleasing, I can't be. This has got to change. And I am with roomfuls of people now virtually and in person who are embracing this, who say, "I want to go in recovery too. Enough. I realize it's holding me back." And wherever there are people who are willing to change and are up for the work and up for the debate about it all, I think there's always hope.

And when we face our own brutal facts and we believe we can change, then I think there's always hope. And that is the kind of message we want to talk about in education in the UK and further afield, that we are not stuck. We don't have to be stuck. Human connection, human understanding, human wisdom, as you mentioned, these things that we can learn to be better and overcome our stuckness can change our lives first and foremost before we change anybody else's, but then help other people to change.

And I think there is a great deal of hope. I think sometimes we have to look hard for it because social media and the news don't talk hope, they talk despair. And so we have to be very open and vocal about the hope. But that's one of the things that I hope to always be, the voice of hope. Not ignoring the brutal facts. We mustn't do that, but always saying, "We'll find a way if we think about this. If we invest, we will find a way." Because I believe we will.

Jon Eckert:

Love that. The next book I'm working on right now is "Gritty Optimism: Catalyzing Joy in Just Schools." How do we build on what we know can change in schools and what they can be? Because there's so many great stories out there and there's so many ways to do it. So this conversation has been super encouraging that way.

So I'm just going to end us with a quick lightning round here. You've already given me at least one book recommendation I need to read. I'm just curious, in the last year, what's a book that you've read from any field? It doesn't have to be from education, that you would recommend to me and to us?

Rachel Johnson:

I'll give you two, Ruthlessly Caring by Amy Walters Cohen about the paradoxes in leadership and the Friction Project by Robert I. Sutton and Huggy Rao.

Jon Eckert:

Yes. So I have been reading pieces of the Friction Project, remarkable. Have not read Ruthlessly Caring, so I've got to get on that. Thank you. All right. What is the worst advice you've received or given as a leader? And then follow that up with the best advice you've either given or received.

Rachel Johnson:

The worst advice I've ever been given is that humility is putting yourself last. Because it's not true.

Jon Eckert:

That's good.

Rachel Johnson:

That's a very blunt and terrible definition. The worst advice that I've probably given would be in my early years of leadership when I was first new and basically said to people, "Maybe don't cause a fuss about that." Because I was a people pleaser, I didn't want to make a fuss. And so sometimes I told other people not to make a fuss and that was a mistake.

Jon Eckert:

That's good. So if you were, oh, so I had a quick break on the connection. So our connection broke there a minute. So don't make a fuss, that's also bad advice. Correct? Yeah.

Rachel Johnson:

Yeah.

Jon Eckert:

So what's the good advice that you've received or given, what's the best advice you've either given or received?

Rachel Johnson:

The best advice I think I would give is make sure when you have any interaction that you are okay and you're seeing the other person as okay. And what I mean by that is that we're not coming with an attitude of judgment or superiority or anything that someone can sniff, which is going to put their back against the wall immediately. So be an adult, be in control of yourself. And if you're not in control of yourself, be vulnerable, but don't do it and create a mess in front of somebody else when it's going to damage them. I think that is unfair.

Jon Eckert:

That's great advice. Love that. What is one word, if you had to describe the schools you work with right now, what would be one word you'd use to describe the schools or the leaders of the schools that you serve?

Rachel Johnson:

Resilient.

Jon Eckert:

Love that. Love that. No, that's right. If we're still in education right now, we're resilient people, so good word. And then what would be one word you would hope would describe the next year in the schools that you serve?

Rachel Johnson:

I'd hope, it's a dramatic word, but I'd say transformational. Because I think if people can grasp this stuff, if they can make the time to think, if they can put themselves on their thinking tank first, I honestly believe we'll overcome challenges that we didn't think were possible. And I hope that in turn doesn't transform PiXL. It's not about that. It's about transforming them first and then transforming the way that they lead because that, I believe, unlocks everything else.

Jon Eckert:

That's a great word to end on. Well, Rachel, this conversation has been great for me. Huge encouragement. Thank you for the work you're doing and thanks for spending the time with us.

Rachel Johnson:

Thank you so much. I have loved speaking to you.