In which John Heilemann talks with Kara Swisher, arguably the preeminent chronicler (and frequent critic) of the companies, personalities, and culture of Silicon Valley and the technology world writ large. Heilemann and Swisher, a protean reporter and pundit whose vast array of endeavors includes hosting the New York Times podcast Sway and serving as a contributing opinion writer at the paper, discuss Spotify’s handling of the Joe Rogan controversy, how the pandemic has shifted the tech landscape, the recent stock plunge that erased more than $200 billion from the market value of Meta, and what to make of two of the most powerful — and maddening — hyper-capitalists of the age: Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. They also look back at their parallel paths covering Silicon Valley during the first Internet boom (and bubble, and bust) in the late 1990s; how Swisher's lesbian identity affected her ability to cover the Valley's notorious tech bro culture; and how her restlessness, entrepreneurial itch, and proud status as a self-described "bad employee" sets her apart from the journalistic herd.

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