Karate 4 Life

Part 5 of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei some time ago. Noonan Sensei is currently the most senior ranked teacher of Chito-Ryu Karate-Do in Australia. In this episode we put Noonan Sensei in the hot seat, and ask him a number of questions from some other Chito-Ryu instructors from around Australia.

015 - Michael Noonan Sensei interview - part 5

Sandra: Welcome back everybody. Today we are in our final part of the five-part interview with Noonan Sensei.

Martin: And of course, if you've missed any of the first four parts, be sure to go back and have a listen to them.

Sandra: Okay, so in this episode, Martin, we have Noonan Sensei in the hot seat.

Martin: Yeah, so we're going to be asking him lots of questions from, that have been given to us from some other Chito-Ryu instructors from around Australia.

Sandra: All right, let's get straight into it.

Martin: We've noticed everybody faces challenges in life, some big and some small, but not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It's not always easy, but we've found that we always keep coming back to what we've learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that's what this podcast is all about.

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life's problems, or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin and Sandra Phillips, and welcome to the Karate4Life Podcast.

All right, so we've got some hot seat questions for you from some of the different instructors around this one. First one from Adam Higgins Sensei on the Gold Coast.

So, in your younger years, you went through some hard physical training, conditioning, and do you believe this is necessary for young karate-ka who wish to pursue?

Noonan Sensei: Oh, that's a very good question. Do I think that physical, hard physical training is necessary? Yes, I do. I say that because, for me, it was because I didn't have any hard physical training.

I didn't come into karate being athletic. I didn't come in as a gymnast or a great swimmer, or anything like that. So for me, definitely, it was necessary.

Now, I can't speak for everybody. So there's probably certain people that might need a bit less of it, but I would say because the way we do technique is very unique, and the muscles we use also therefore must be tuned in a certain way, and certain ones must be strengthened. And so I would say that the exercises that we do are specific for the development of karate.

I'll just make that clear. I don't believe that if you're a buff gym guy that that's enough physical exercise for karate. I'm not having a go at buff gym guys, but karate is so specific, and the things you need to develop and strengthen are so unusual in many ways, as you know.

So yes, you do, but depending on what you've done before might be some variation in what you need to do, and how much.

Martin: All right, next question from Mark Snow Sensei, who's just over in the corner, actually. Should have got him over here for this one. Can you explain shuhari in relation to your journey?

Maybe just a brief explanation of what shuhari is first, I guess.

Noonan Sensei: Okay, yeah. Shu is the basic part, to develop, to copy, you know, like a foundation. And the Ha part is to make it your own, and Ri part is to break away from that. Now, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that give a broader, you can YouTube that and get a much better explanation, a much deeper one, but for the purpose of this conversation, that's pretty much it.

How's it applied in my journey? Yeah, you know, I think it applies in everybody's journey. It's something that, if you really practice correctly, you can't escape from.

If you don't follow this process, and I won't say it's, well, you know, I'm not sure, really. Maybe it's a long, drawn-out process where you've done this, and done that, and then you break. But in my mind, the longer I do it, I think it's a series of the same thing happening over and over again.

You're learning something, you're breaking, you're learning, you're consolidating, you make it in your own, and then you're breaking away. And you do it again, and again, and again, and again, with different techniques, with different mindsets, developing different parts of your body. And I think Soke always, in a video that Soke and I did together, he always talks about that's coming back to the beginning.

And I almost think that's what that's about, that you're starting, you're making it your own, and you're breaking, and then you come back, and you repeat the process. So, you know, that's my opinion, and that's how it affected my karate life.

Martin: That's great, that's great. All right, next question. This one's actually from me.

I've written this one down, so it's a little bit, make sure I get it. So, obviously, Chito-Ryu was introduced to Australia, the official record say was 1972. It was actually a little bit before that, late 60s, I believe.

Noonan Sensei: Yes, I believe it was 67, but I don't know exactly.

Martin: Obviously, this was before any of us started our current generation. So, I guess, based on your interactions with the teachers that you had, and people in the early days, what do you remember about what Chito-Ryu was like in those early years?

I guess we covered a little bit of this earlier. Yeah, yeah.

Noonan Sensei: Look, I'm only repeating what someone told me, so I wasn't there to see it. I was told that we, that Chito-Ryu had very long stances, and being new to anywhere, and not having a great deal of depth and contact with overseas, it would have been very muscular, because we know that when we develop something, we're applying all the muscles to start with, until we learn better, and then start to reduce, or maybe target the muscles that we should be using, and stop using the ones we shouldn't be using.

That's right, yeah. However, so, but when something's introduced somewhere, it's kind of new, and the people teaching it had not themselves spent years either in Japan, or with Soke, or back and forth, and so, if you can imagine a form of Chitok-Ryu that was quite hard, and I don't want to misquote my friend Paul Hind Sensei, but, you know, I can't remember what the term he used, but, you know, it's kind of wham, bam, boof, and that's a bit what it was like, you know. It was pretty, it was more a Bash em up type of tough, hard, blood on the floor kind of training, yes.

Martin: So perhaps a little bit different to these days?

Noonan Sensei: Well, I mean, the expertise that we have now, and the technical expertise we have now, is really second to none in the world, and I don't say that egotistically, and I don't say it lightly. I really believe that with the people we've got here, and of course, that's going to reflect in our dojos, and reflect in our students and their abilities. And I think now, maybe philosophically, we've come another step as well, where it goes hard, tough, fight.

Now, maybe philosophically, we've come a couple of steps ahead, and we're thinking, you know, how does karate impact other areas of your life? What are the benefits of karate? Do you just do karate, like I did, to learn to fight to start with, and then does that, as you, the more you practice, it'll change your view of what you're practicing, and ultimately mould your character.

So I would think now that there is more philosophical input now today, than there has been previously, and having your wife, Sandra Phillips Sensei, here this week, and today we were fortunate enough to have her take a women's seminar, and although I wasn't officially at the seminar, what I caught little bits and pieces of it was a lot of mental focus, and from the week we've had it, it's the same thing, there's a lot of mental focus, that was lacking, that was not there, definitely in the early days.

So, but technically and philosophically, we were younger, younger, that's all. As you grow, you get, you know, you get better, and you get older, you get better.

Martin: Hopefully, hopefully.

Noonan Sensei: Well, we do, we have, we have, we've got older, the style’s got older here, and I was told 67 from memory, and I could be proven wrong.

Martin: Just a couple more questions, one from Adam McDonald Sensei, also from the Blue Mountains. Is there anything that you would have changed in your journey, and what would you have done differently?

Noonan Sensei: Oh, that's a good one. Um, well, I'm kind of happy where I am at the moment, so if I had to change something, maybe I wouldn't be where I am. On the other hand, maybe I would have been further along the track, so it's like rolling the dice, would I change anything?

From one, one perspective, one thing I would change is, I would be very careful about how much impact work I did on heavy bags, makiwara and those things, and people's bodies. Especially as you get older. Well, yes, when you're younger, it doesn't, you know, you don't think it's going to happen to you, but you trust me, young people out there, you can see me, it will happen to you.

If you don't listen to your teachers, it'll happen to you. You're going to be in a world of pain when you get older, if you do the wrong things to your body, and that goes back to the discussion we had on fake teachers, that if you don't know what you're doing, you're endangering people. That's another very good point, but, so, what I'd do differently, well, I would probably not do as much toe-strengthening work, and kicking the makiwara with the tip of my toe, because I do suffer a little bit in that area at the moment, that's one thing.

Pretty much apart from that, I'd just be a little bit more careful with the way I did any type of conditioning exercises, and the length. Now, that was not anybody's fault apart from my own, because Soke told me not to do that much, but being young and silly, I did more, and I had been influenced by another couple of guys, in Chito-Ryu, that were heavily into that kind of thing, but I should have just listened to Soke. If I hadn't listened to Soke, I don't think I'd have the minor problems that I have today, but I'd rather not have them, put it that way.

Martin: All right, and one final question from Greg Field Sensei from Newcastle, and this one might take a little bit, what are the key skills and concepts that students should practice at various Dan grades? Not to get too deep on the final question.

Noonan Sensei: And these are all impromptu questions, by the way, so this is all off the top of my head, I haven't prepared anything, I haven't shown you any questions, I'm not going to give you the questions, what are you going to practice? Oh boy, I mean, how far do you want to go? Let's just be very, a little bit surface level in this, if you're going for a Shodan, your technique's got to be really good in all the basics, and you've got to show that you have power, and that you have speed, and that you, when you step into a particular stance, it is that stance, it's not a, almost that stance, you've got to have your, you know, Ichi gan, Ni soku, San tan, all right.

We're happy, I think people, I think as teachers, we're pretty happy if we get a good example of strong basics, we're not looking for the best fighters, or the, you know, champions of this or that, if we get someone with really strong basics, we can work on that.

As you get to Nidan, I would expect that your technique becomes a lot more whippy, so you're learning to whip your body more, and faster, and as when you're in Shodan, when you get to Shodan, I think your training, if you follow Soke's, the path that Soke kind of puts you on, as you get to Shodan, and the training, you do a lot of speed training, so you're trying to do your whippy.

I mean, I don't really want to go into it too much more than that, I think the higher you get, apart from saying that, the higher you get, the more relaxed your karate should be, the more tanden use you should have, so, yeah…

If I may, I'm sorry Greg, but I might just rephrase your question, and not ask for the dan grades, because that gets a little bit, I mean, that's all written down for you, what you need, but more, as you go up, and we won't put them in the exact exact grades, you know, third, fourth, fifth, blah, blah, blah, but as you go up, what are the things you should be looking for?

A more relaxed karate, a more use of your tanden, a finer understanding of the basic principles, like Ichi gan, Ni Soku, San Tan, what else, and when we're going higher and higher, the further you go, the more reliant on those things you should be, and less reliant on the form, but I don't want anyone to take that the wrong way, and start to do silly things. But the less reliant on exactly how to stand, or exactly how to punch, or those things, and the more reliant on your tandem, and the principles that underlie karate become the focus.

As you get older, and as I say this, as you get older, you shouldn't slow down. In fact, at my age, I'm 55, I feel I'm faster than I've ever been, and I don't know, you've seen me, I probably am, right, I feel that I'm faster than I have been, I'm certainly, I know I'm certainly more powerful than I've ever been before, now I hope that continues, but time will tell, we'll just, I'll just do an interview in 20 years, and we'll know for sure. But, so that's, that's I think what people really need to focus on, karate is more than just getting a bad grade, and it's long term, and if anyone's telling you that, you know, your karate peaks at 35, and then, and then you just become a member of the organisation, and help out, and blah, blah, blah, and your technique goes down. I would argue with that, say that's wrong, very wrong, and even when I, that's not just from my Soke, but even when I met the Royama sensei of Kyokushin, he was on a different path, much softer, and he came, he came across when I saw him demonstrate, and for me, and on me. I just remember somebody that was the same thing, was very fast, he was 74 at the time, very fast, and powerful, and inspirational, and that's where I get my inspiration from. I look at those guys, I look at Soke, 72 years old, and I think, this guy just keeps getting better, you know, wow, he's, he's 72, and you know, like when's he going to peak? Is there ever going to be a turning point, I don't know.

So that, that's the beauty of, I think, training something that, that has history, and roots, and, and a direction, and a path, you can train things, but many, not, not, not all, and I'm not having a go at any martial arts, but many of them, if they're not taught correctly, it's like at some point, you just hit that wall, your body starts to fail, there's no changes, then you go down, now, can you do the same things you could when you're 20? No, it's different, so when you're 20, you might be better at jumping, and leaping, and flying through the air, and doing flying sidekicks, and whatever. Are you going to be doing them at 60? I doubt it, I'm not saying people can't, but I doubt it, but you will improve in other ways, that you could never think, dream, that were possible, when you were 20. You will, there will be, your karate will be that much improved, and better, and more powerful, and timing will be better, and, you know, it's, it's really worth training towards that, so, that's, sorry Greg, not going to go into every Dan Rank.

Martin: I think it's still pretty great, I think that's good, yeah, all right, well, that's all I've got, so thank you very much, I very much, appreciate your time.

Noonan Sensei: I'll just say one more thing on those, those fake guys, the other thing I was thinking, after we spoke about that, one of the other things is, these guys form organisations. So three or four of them get together, like you and I might get together, your wife will get together, and we call ourselves some name, like, you know, the International World Global Martial Arts Association Federation, or something like that. Whatever grandiose name we give ourselves. And we form this organisation, and then I say to you, you know, you're very good, I think you should be a Seventh Dan, and so you get up, and do something, and we, the three or four of us that are around you, say there's your seventh Dan. And then you say, “well, you're older than us, and you're a little bit higher, you need to be a ninth Dan, Mike!” and then you guys get together, and you give me a Ninth Dan, and they perpetuate this, really, it's like a lie.

It's not just nepotism, it goes further than that, but they, so they get together, they build themselves up to a certain level, and then if people don't have a grading authority that they can rely on or something, and they look on the internet, they might find this organisation, and then they'll come to them, and then they'll get graded, and then these things kind of grow, and get out of hand.

So don't be fooled, I guess the moral is, don't be fooled by names, don't be fooled by the world, global, international, super duper martial arts, whatever. Don't be fooled by any of that, go back to people's history, where did they start, how long they've been training, and most importantly, who they train with. Because most of these guys will never give you the names of the people, and when you look them up, if they do give you the names, they're probably not around, they're not real ones anyway, or they never trained with those people, so that's another point, all right, thank you very much, thank you,

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode on the Karate4Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website, Karate4Life.com.

Martin: Share it with your friend via social media, and don't forget to tag us, hashtag Karate4LifePodcast. And if you've got a topic that you'd like us to cover in future episodes, or a question you'd like to ask about karate or life...

Sandra: Please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Thanks again for joining us, and stay tuned for the next episode.

Part 4 of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei some time ago. Noonan Sensei is currently the most senior ranked teacher of Chito-Ryu Karate-Do in Australia. In this episode he share some of his expereinces training with people from other styles and martial arts, and he also shares his views on what he considers to be the biggest problem with the martial arts industry.

Sandra: Welcome back everybody. Today we are continuing with part four of the five-part interview with Noonan Sensei.

Martin: And if you haven't already heard the first three parts, be sure to go back and listen to the previous episodes.

Sandra: Yeah, in this episode Noonan Sensei shares his experiences training with other martial artists and his views on what he considers to be the biggest problem with the martial arts industry.

Martin: We've noticed everybody faces challenges in life, some big and some small, but not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It's not always easy, but we've found that we always keep coming back to what we've learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that's what this podcast is all about.

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to last problems or even better yet to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin and Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate4Life podcast.

I'm going to conintue on where Sandra left off and perhaps cover some things from a different angle. And, obviously over the years outside of Chito-Ryu, you've trained with quite a few different people, different martial arts, different styles of karate. What have you taken from that?

Noonan Sensei: Look, I don't want to be a style slob because I don't really believe in that. And I think no matter what you do, if you practice it well, practice it deeply, you're going to find something. But I went to other places because I wanted to find, I wanted to see what people were doing.

I didn't go there arrogant and arrogant and passionate. I went there to learn. And I wanted to find out right or wrong.

If you, you know, my teacher was in Japan and I was here. So access to knowledge was a little difficult those days. And so right or wrong, I decided, you know what, I'm going to go and look at different styles.

And I'd actually asked Sogen at the time what he thought of that idea. And he said, that's a good idea. And I think that shows you what kind of a teacher he is.

That's a very confident teacher that can say, by all means, go and enjoy and see what you find. So previous to me, so previous to going to Japan as kids, we used to go and do some kickboxing and other things like that. But after I came back to Japan, I did study with the Tai Chi with Montague.

And again, he's passed away. But he, I thought he was excellent. I thought he was a fabulous technician, a very powerful man, very practical.

So I didn't agree with everything. But I certainly learned some things from him. I also did Wing Chun, which I appreciated as well.

I found that gave me some knowledge in other areas, various, various styles of karate. I joined him, you know, joined together with, it wasn't that I was there day in day out, but I certainly got together with senior people and talked about karate, trained karate. There was a Tai Chi with Cathy Sensei, he came to Australia.

That was the early 90s at the time. And I went to a camp with him, which I thoroughly enjoyed. There was, yeah, there was a whole bunch of people.

But ultimately, I wasn't, you see, I wasn't, I didn't, I never felt that I was going to join another style or this or, ultimately, all I want to do is understand history more. And I thought that if I understand what everyone else is doing, maybe I'll understand what I'm doing a little deeper. So that's, that's the reason for that.

Martin: I guess I kind of ask because I've, in all honesty, I've probably led a very narrow path, very sheltered life. I haven't really looked outside. I should tell you, I found that there's just so much there that I don't feel like I need to look outside.

Noonan Sensei: I agree. I agree with you.

Martin:

But at the same time, I can certainly see the benefit of that. But from that side of things, what sort of advice would you give to other people who might be looking to do the same kind of thing?

Noonan Sensei: Um, I mean, I never tell my students not to do anything they want. But you've got to understand that I was a showdown. And I didn't have anybody to teach me.

You know, if I had been a showdown in your dojo, you know, let's go back, you know, if you were who you are today, and I was an 18, 19, 20 year old in your dojo, I don't think I would have gone anywhere, because I would have had a path, you know, to follow. That's what I really believe now. I don't think anybody needs to go anywhere here, but I never stopped them.

In fact, if they wanted to actually encourage them, yeah, go and see what it's like. Because I don't have any fear that they're going to find something better or leave or anything like that. And I know there's a couple of my students who've gone and done a few other things, but they, it was out of, you know, I guess, curiosity for some people.

And part of my thing was curiosity. And the other thing was, I wanted to see if what I was doing actually worked against what somebody else was doing. To be honest, that's, you know, I remember doing something with you guys.

And see, everybody, everybody outside of karate has this view of karate, it's tight and hard and stiff, and yeah, and all that kind of stuff. And so when I turned up and trained with them, I presented something totally different. And they were, I don't think I ever got any uncomplimentary remarks.

It was more, there were a lot more compliments than anything else, really. People were quite amazed. I remember people saying, oh, is this really karate?

I said, yeah, karate, this is karate. It doesn't have to be stiff and hard and what you think it is, what you think it's made out to be. So yeah, I wanted to see if I, if what I'm doing works against what they're doing, suppose, or how they did it, or.

Martin: So I guess the other side of things, in mixing with other, other dojos and other martial arts, I guess, listen, one thing that you've been very vocal about is a lot of people out there have done not the right thing.

Noonan Sensei: Yeah, there's a lot of fakes and a lot of frauds out there. And it's an unregulated industry. And later on, you can get the picture, you get a picture of my dog, who now is a 9th Dan.

And she's a 9th Dan and Schnauzer-Jutsu, which shouldn't say something right. So all I did was I got a certificate printed up in Japan. And then I sent the certificate off to a leading, you know, it was supposed to be some leading bureau, a board of black belts internationally, presented them the certificate, there was no research done.

You would have, you would assume if someone said, Schnauzer-Jutsu, that there would be alarm bells ringing. But there was not one question. You paid your however much it was money, and I paid the fee.

And my dog came back, you know, authorised 9th Dan, whatever. And then we just went off to the embroiderer, I got the belt done. She's got a membership card there.

And I just did that to prove a point that if you're looking to do any type of martial arts, do your research, because it's unregulated. And there's just so many people that are pretenders. It's very sad.

Martin: So you have people that are pretending to be experts in this, or attempt on this? Oh, yeah, yeah, we have. How do you tell the difference?

For someone who doesn't know anything, how do you tell the difference?

Noonan Sensei: Well, look, I mean, I don't want to, like, I don't want to paint everybody in the same brush. So I'm going to give you very general rules. And, and some of those rules, you know, there are exceptions to those rules.

But, you know, somebody who's 35 in 10th Dan, I'd be concerned that something's not right there. Somebody who's 24 is Shihan, I'd be concerned that something's not right there, because age and maturity and technique go together. If you're going to be at those levels, you need to be older because your karate doesn't develop until you get older.

It develops more, of course it develops, but as you get older, it further develops and you can't do what you should be doing as a 5th Dan, 6th Dan, 7th Dan. When you're only 35, because you haven't had that time. So that's the first thing I'd look at, people's age.

The other thing is, I mean, I'm not a big fan of multi-coloured uniforms and gears and all those other things. That would be an alarm bell, but that doesn't necessarily mean that because they've got a different uniform that there's something wrong. But it would, it would be something that would make me, if I was looking, I would probably delve a little deeper, a little bit of a red flag.

Other things, it's not so much, if you don't know what, like if I look at people, I can tell if they're clowns or not. Some of them are clowns, real clowns. I don't know how they can embarrass themselves as much to call themselves, I'd be ashamed to say I was a Hanshi or a Kyoshi or something when, you know, I can't punch properly.

But how would, you know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith who've never been to karate, how would they know that? That's pretty difficult. I really think that you've got to look at the history of people and if you find that these people come out of the blue, and of course, they're always writing their own scripts, their own history, you know.

And, you know, I started with, you know, two years old doing boxing and then by three and a half, I was doing judo. And they seem to have all this, but there's no verification of any of that. They kind of just, and then suddenly they're on whatever damn it is.

If you look at their history, it's pretty easy because if you go back and look at me, or I mean look at you, or your lovely wife, you're going to find photos of when you were a kid in Canada with me, right? When you were a brown boy, right? You were probably taller than me, that's not even then, we were now older, we were young men, very young.

But you're going to find you as a kid doing karate, you're going to find a snapshot with you in a tournament somewhere, you're going to find a snapshot with your dojo ladies, you're going to see you a bit later in life, you're going to see the biggest, and you're going to see a history of what you've really done. The guys, and you'll have dates, people will know that was in 95, that was in, you know, I mean I go back to 1980, that was in 1980, 1985. And those people won't have that because they just haven't done time.

I don't, I'm not, I have no criticism of mixed martial arts or anything like that, and some ranking systems are different to ours, and I'm not criticising other ranking systems. You know, maybe there is such thing as a 20th man, but that's got to be put into perspective of what that ranking system is, right? But you really have to look at things from a logical perspective and not a kind of, you know, martial arts can be a bit mystical in a way, and it turns people, people are afraid to ask you a question, but if I was looking for a karate school, and I call everything karate, whatever, it's Taekwondo or whatever, I just label it as karate or martial arts.

If I was looking for a martial arts school, I would ask the instructor, where did you start? Who was your teacher? And then you will find a video of a guy fighting, like you'll find me, like you'll find yourself, like you'll find a host of other good people.

You'll find those photos on the internet or whatever, you'll see them on their Facebook page, and you know, that's, I think that's one of the keys, that some people just seem to come from nowhere, and they paint their own history, but anyone can say anything about their history. I can say I started, you know, I was adopted by ninjas when I was two years old, and you know, and now I'm the 74th master of some type of ninjutsu, paid me a lot of money.

Martin: You could all say that, so I would say, okay, well, let's say somebody ticks all the boxes, you've gone through this checklist, you've given a few ideas there. I know you, from your perspective, your experience, you're able to look at somebody within a couple of minutes, you'll be able to make a pretty quick impression of whether they really know what you're talking about. But at the end of the day, what is it that makes a good teacher?

What is it that makes a good dojo?

Noonan Sensei: Yeah, well, I think you've got to trust your gut. What makes a good dojo? Well, that's kind of a different question, what makes a good teacher in a good dojo.

We are, we're not, well, I don't see ourselves as coaches. I don't see ourselves that way. Coaches don't need to even play the sport to be a great coach, right?

So coaches don't need to, and I won't name names, but there are various coaches in various sports that haven't even played the sport, or can't, or play lousy when they're great coaches. Even some music teachers, they may not be able to play music that they can teach. But I don't see karate like that.

I think for what we do, we have to walk the path and train. It's because we're not winning anything. You can go to tournaments, and that's different, but the path of karate is you're not, you don't get a medal every time you come to training.

You're not winning anything. You're walking the path, and it's very hard to tell people about that. It's very hard to explain that unless you've done it.

So I think the first thing is they're going to do it. They're going to have their own personal training regime. They're going to still be training.

They're not training. They're not doing karate anymore. So that's very important, training.

I mean, other than that, I think there's a lot of personal preference in it, some people will gel better with other people. Some people's approach to training, to teaching will be different, and that'll gel with some people, and others won't gel. I'm not saying what makes a good teacher.

All I'm saying is how to differentiate someone who's trying to tell you something that's not true. That's very different from being a good teacher. So I mean, I was, don't you get this book, but I was in Japan recently, as both of you know, and I go to the hotel that I was staying at, it's a nice hotel, and they've got a lovely gym, and they have a little yoga room, which at five o'clock in the morning becomes the kata room.

I renamed it, and I tell the hotel managers, I've been back there many times, they know that I open that before I get down there, so it's all ready for me. And I go there early, because I'm not there to show everyone what I'm doing, I just want to try, and I like to get out of the way early, and then do other things. So I go down, and a gentleman walked in, every morning coming in, he'd do his own training.

He was doing, you know, a bit of weight things, and treadmills, and whatever else, but he would watch me, really watch me, and to the point of me feeling sometimes uncomfortable, you know, when someone's watching you feel a bit uncomfortable, but I realised, you know, he's a Japanese guy, and I thought maybe he's obviously got something to do with karate, or he's fascinated that, you know, this white guy's doing karate, this westerner's doing karate, and he came, approached me, and started to talk to me, and he asked me some really deep, kind of philosophical questions about karate, and so it became instantly obvious that this guy was not a, you know, not a novice, and I'd obviously answered him well enough for him to continue talking to me, so we spent a lot of time just sitting down, like, you know, one of those balls or something, or in a corner, between, you know, sets of things, discussing karate, and then of course, I asked him, well, you've obviously done karate, tell me about that, and he said, oh, I was Mas Oyama sensei's secretary for the last five years of his life, I never left his side, basically, I said, oh, wow, okay, and he said to me, I did some training with another gentleman, he's a very famous kickboxer, and Thai boxer, and a champion, a title champion, we do some training here, on whatever night it was, it might have been a Tuesday afternoon, please join us, and so I said, that'd be great, yeah, like, we met the gentleman, Naruto, I think his name was, Naruto something, he was, and he was a gentleman, lovely guy, and I, so they did their, the way the training went is, they just had to, you know, do a few things, and they did this and stuff, and then they said, now you have a go at it, and of course, it came to hitting the pad, the first thing was, they had a pad, you know, palm striking, and when I hit a pad, you know, the guy flies back, and the guy was talking, he was, you know, shocked, and he says, anyway, by the end of the training session, I won't go on with it, but by the end of the training session, and we did, the other thing was the knife, and we talked about stuff, and knife defence, and I said, well, okay, just, you know, have a go, and bang, bang, bang, the guy's on the ground, and he looks up at his friend and says, did you see what happened? He goes, I didn't see what happened, all I knew is, I was just staying up on the ground all the time, so we had a good time, and I earned their respect, you know, that's where I'm going with this, and these guys were serious people, and the last thing I was said to them, the Armistice Secretary said to me, I'd like to take you to dinner, I'd like you to meet someone, and he gave me the details, and he said, oh, someone will pick you up at a certain time, that's what they'd tell, anyway, a big limousine came and picked me up, and we went to a very exclusive part of Tokyo, and I was surprised, this was like, well, you don't know what's going on, what's happening next, you know, and it was a private function, and I said, you know, big, quite a big room with a lot of, there's plenty of alcohol, friends, champagnes, and wines, and beer, and everything, and I said, who's coming? He said, it's just you, and me, and Royama Sensei, and Royama Sensei happens to be the current head of one of the large Kyokushin organisations, there's a couple of them now, but he's one of the larger organisations, and he says, he told me before I was meeting Royama, he said, I want you to meet him, I want you two to talk, because you'll have a lot in common, I know that, and I want, and he was, I won't say what this particular gentleman does, but he had a translator working with him, and he said, I'm bringing my translator so you can speak deeply, and this translator was like, you know, when you watch the UN conferences, and these, you know, someone speak, it's like instant, she was amazing, and the minute Royama Sensei got there, we just, you know, hit it off, and we started to talk karate, and I was very surprised, I mean, I won't go into all the stuff, but it was, I was very surprised that the paths were so close as you get higher, the longer you go, you know, I expected from what I've seen in Kyokushin, I had a lot of Kyokushin friends, I expected the bigger movements and heavier stuff, he was very light, fast, and very relaxed, and so that's why I got the book, he bought this book, and I won't tell you what he said in the cover, you know, he's written on all that, what his basis is, train till you die, work hard every day, I thought that was, you know, considering what we're talking about before, but that's what makes a karate person, and, you know, you don't get these clowns and bozos that are pretending, they're not going to be training in the gym, and someone's going to say, you come and meet one of the heads of the, the head of one of the Kyokushin, they're not going to get that at all, because they don't know what they're doing, but it, you know, the belt is just a, it doesn't really, really mean much, it's just a belt, and some of these guys are, it's more important for them to be called a certain name, a certain title, wear a certain belt, look a certain way, than actually be able to do the stuff, but, you know, they, they're going on now, like, karate tours to Okinawa, and I know for a fact, and I said that, they go do a little training here, a little training there, a little bit there, now, what was your time like in Japan, did you get any break, or did you get a choice to go a little bit here, a little bit there, you were stuck in a dojo for, I don't know, nine months or something, ten months stuck in a dojo, and, you know, I won't say physically beaten every day, but pretty much under the, you know, hammer, under the iron sledgehammer of Soke, beating your body into what he wanted out of it, you know, making you the karate man you are today, from the austere and hard training, and so, I feel that's, now it's got to a point where serious people went to Japan, but now, every man his dog wants to go, and they'll find someone to affiliate with, they'll find someone to, you know, give them a great summer if they pay enough, it's really a disgrace, and it's, I think it's really bad for the public too, because they're not getting, they're not getting what they're paying for, and they're giving, and every, every karate instructor, I mean, I come across as pretty strong about this, and I've had plenty of run-ins with these people, but every serious karate teacher should be incensed by this, because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's casting a very dark shadow across everybody, because people don't know, and people, when a person has one bad experience, well, they're not going to turn up to my dojo after that, are they? One bad experience around the corner from you or whatever, they don't think, oh, that karate dojo's going to be different, they just tell us all with the same brush, unfortunately, but, so, that gets back to my, my point, you've got to train, you've got to train, you've got to have your personal training, you've got to have your own advancement, and you should be doing that for a long, long, long period of time, if not your life, and the day that you don't want to do that, you want to start thinking, am I really, do I really want to be a karate teacher, you know, and you see, I feel, I don't feel sorry, that's, that's the wrong word, but, you think about some, some guys try really hard, and he's a sandan, or a yondan, he's worked really hard, he's a good karate, good karate, you know, a guy, a girl, a good karate guy, and they've achieved, and that's a very serious level, sandan, yondan, yondan, but, it looks like nothing these days, because, you know, there's a million eight things, and nine things, and hunches, and everything else around you, and, and so, it kind of, you think, it's just upside down, and I don't like it at all, I have nothing good to say about these people, I don't care if they're helping people, I don't care if they're helping people, we're not a philanthropist, or a philanthropic organisation, right, we're a karate school, should we help people, yes, it's good to help people, yes, but the first thing is, it's a karate school, if you just want to help people, call yourself something else, and karate is attractive to people, it's probably the most common name that's ever used in martial arts, and to the novice, what would they, everything's karate, people still tell me my kids did karate when, when they do, and it was a Taekwondo school, but they did karate, but it's okay, because it's a common name, well, if you've got a, such and such a school, you want to have karate in your school, because you know it brings more people in, so they create, some of them haven't even done karate, and they've got a karate school, they've done other things, so anyway, people know how I feel, if anybody does in person, they know how I feel, and I think I've made myself clear in many different forms, and I've made myself clear today, that's how I feel about it.

Martin: Well, I think we're running out of time very quickly, so we'll have to wrap things up for now, we've certainly got a lot more, a lot more questions we'd like to ask on the technical side of things, but we might save that for tomorrow. Absolutely. Thank you.

Thanks for listening to today's episode on the Karate for Life podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website, karate4life.com.

Martin: Share it with your friend via social media, and don't forget to tag us, hashtag Karate4LifePodcast. And if you've got a topic that you'd like us to cover in future episodes, or a question you'd like to ask about karate or life…

Sandra: … please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Thanks again for joining us, and stay tuned for the next episode, where we put Noonan Sensei in a hot seat, and ask him a number of questions from some other Chito-Ryu instructors from around Australia.

Here's a brief highlight of what's to come.

Noonan Sensei: One thing I would change is, I would be very careful about how much impact work I did on heavy bags, makiwara, and those things. Personally, young people out there, if you can see me like this, it will happen to you.

So, what I'd do differently, well, I would probably not do as much kicking the makiwara with the tip of my toe, because I do suffer a little bit in that area at the moment.

Martin: What are the key skills and concepts that students should practice at various dan grades? Not to get too deep on the final question.

Noonan Sensei: And these are all impromptu questions, by the way, so this is all off the top of my head. I haven't prepared anything, I haven't shown you any questions.

Part 3 of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei some time ago. Noonan Sensei is currently the most senior ranked teacher of Chito-Ryu Karate-Do in Australia. In this episode he share a bit about the technical side of his training and his experiences training with 2nd Generation Soke.

Sandra: Welcome back everybody. Today we are excited to be sharing with you part three of the five-part interview with Noonan-sensei.

Martin: And if you haven't already heard the first parts, be sure to go back and listen to the previous episodes.

Sandra: Yeah, do that before you go on to this one. But today, in today's episode, Noonan-sensei will continue sharing more about his experiences training in Japan, and he'll also share a few ideas on the technical side of his training, and that's going to be pretty interesting.

Martin: We've noticed everybody faces challenges in life, some big and some small, but not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It's not always easy, but we found that we always keep coming back to what we've learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that's what this podcast is all about.

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to last problems, or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin and Sandra Phillips, and welcome to the Karate4Life Podcast.

Sandra: So, could you share more about your training? You were being in a black belt. I was.

Short down. Your first time going to Japan.

Noonan Sensei: Yeah.

Sandra: Could you share more about the things that you did? Was it more kumite based?

Noonan Sensei: No, it was the same. Look, there was probably more basics than Soke does in the morning now. But I believe that's because he thinks our basics are not too bad now.

So we're doing okay. So we'll get these out of the way quick and move on to the other stuff. That's what I, that's my, that's how I perceive it.

But previous to that, it was always, we'd, I don't know how many punches we do, but it was like five, at least five minutes of seiken zuki or more. And then, you know, oi zuki, gyaku zuki, oshi zuki, rinten zuki, just over and over again. And then every single kick, gedan, chudan, kata, again, over and over and over and over again.

Not a lot of stretching, a bit of conditioning, you know, quite a few push-ups and cat stretches were big at that time. So I was really into those. Some, a little bit of kaishu at that stage, that first stage, a little bit of open hand.

But the biggest thing was he was always telling me, you know, tanden, you got to use your tanden. He liked the fact that I, and much to the chagrin of others, because it was probably, I wasn't sure, I know in Japanese culture, it's not that polite to keep questioning people about things. But I didn't know that, so I didn't care because I didn't know.

So I just had a million questions and I used to just continually ask them and I know that it probably upset other people in the dojo, but I don't care now. Maybe I should, but it doesn't bother me now because it's helped me along my way. So I asked a lot of questions continually and all sorts of questions about everything, whether it was basic, kata, it didn't matter.

But he was really responsive to that and I know many years later and in the 90s when he was talking to a couple of the gents from the United States, he said to them, you know, something along the lines of, words to the effect that, you know, he asked so many questions continually and that's good, you should ask. So I realised many, many years later, after people had told me that's bad, of course, you know, I got the rap on the knuckles and you shouldn't ask that many questions and blah, blah, blah. I got a rap on the knuckles for that from different people.

I still kept asking questions though, because my, for me, my learning was more important than how polite asking question was or not. Make what, you know, make out of that whatever you want, but that's how I felt. I'm there to learn.

It's a great opportunity and I'm not there forever, so I've got to make the best of it.

Sandra: That's great. So I'm going to, buddy, and I apologise.

Noonan Sensei: Please.

Sandra: I'm sure my husband, Martin, was talking about, you're quite famous at the sohonbu of breaking makiwara.

Noonan Sensei: Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot that. I just want to.

Sandra: I'd forgotten that. I remember going there one year myself, I had to go and rebuild one with Mark Waterfield sensei.

Noonan Sensei: And then I broke that one.

Sandra: Yeah, do you want to, I mean, maybe share what a makiwara is, because they might not know.

Noonan Sensei: Well yeah, well you can get a camera and then have a look at them, put them up later, but it's, so in Japan the makiwara that we use is, it's about eight foot long, and I'm not sure the, do you know the timber that they use? It's a particular Japanese timber that we don't have here. We usually use Oregon here, which is pretty good for them, but it starts like a square base and it goes up to a couple inches across and quite thin at the top, so it's nice and flexible.

And it's about four foot in the ground and about four foot out of the ground, and they're not supposed to break, that's the reality. They're not supposed to break, they're supposed to flex. flex, flex, flex.

Anyway, I can't remember what year it was, but Soke had been across to Australia and he took me for a walk. He said, come on, let's walk, okay? And you know, I'm kind of jumping along beside him like a little puppy and he slows me down.

He said, no, no, step, feel your weight in your body, feel your, and he went on and on and I started to think about it and I started trying to apply it to my karate. I think I was about, I was going to challenge for my yondan at that time, but honestly I couldn't put a year on it. It was in the nineties and so I went and I had a makiwara at home and it was like just, you know, sometimes those light bulb moments you can, and that's something that everyone should realise when you train.

If you just keep training, no matter how hard you suck at it for a while, something will happen, but you've got to stick to it for that to happen. You've got to keep the training up for that to happen. If you're not training, well, it won't happen.

It's not like you can watch someone on YouTube doing karate and then suddenly you'll be able to do it. That's never going to happen. There's too many of those people around.

We'll talk about that later anyway. But so, you know, I put all this together in my mind and my body and I went home and I hit my makiwara just once and it just broke. And then I thought, now, wow, now, am I like, you know, wow, have I really done this?

Or this has been out in the elements. Might have been a bit weak now. It's been around.

Who knows? So I went over to Japan and they had two makiwara. And I went and started to hit the makiwara and I broke the makiwara.

And then I can't remember if it was the same year. I don't think it was the same year. No, I don't think it was.

But I went back another year and I broke the other one. And I know they had to rebuild it. And I apologise because it's a horrible thing putting in a makiwara.

I did, you know, pay my dues, my penance for that, because when we went back in 2012, there was no makiwara. Because I think I broke three or four. And then a friend of mine at the time up in Newcastle had a couple and I broke his too.

So I got, I think I had seven makiwara notched up under my, on my belt that I'd broken. And it wasn't just my little flimsy ones or anything that, it wasn't like that. They were all proper makiwara.

And so I got my, I bought, I ordered the wood before I went there and I got them to get it in. And we, my students and they dug a, we all did a, dug a big hole. We put them, it was like a ceremony almost.

And we put the new makiwara in. So today there is a makiwara in the Sohonbu and I, I won't be hitting it just in case. Just in case.

So yeah, that's, that's a true story. That's a true story.

Sandra: I'm going to ask one more question for now. And I want you to go to the next part about, with Martin Sensei's questions for you, obviously, but just one more question about your journey. I guess a lot of people, when they're training, they'll go through, I guess, seasons, like, for example, one of my times, all the feedback that I got from Soke Sensei was you're just too tight, you're too tight, you're too tight.

And then a breakthrough moment comes. Something just makes sense. And you can kind of move beyond that.

Do you have that same kind of thing in your training at any point in time? Was there a consistent feedback at one stage for you?

Noonan Sensei: Oh, I think that's, I think Soke must say that to every single student. I know. I'm not sure if you've been told that, but I was told that.

I can't even mention the number of things that he's told me. I mean, he used to, he used to stand there and laugh. My karate was that bad.

I think, you know, he just used to laugh at me and shake his head. I just, you know, and I felt like, I really felt like, I don't think I'm ever going to get this. I got two left feet.

Nothing seems to want to work. He's telling me to do this. So I, you know, just too tight.

If he's only telling you too tight, well, I mean, you're doing far better than I did. I got everything, my head was down, my this was this, my that was that, my shoulders were up, my blah, blah, blah. I mean, I had everything wrong with me.

And, and, and on top of that, I was too tight, too tight. Always, that'd be like every lesson. And he would, he, you know, he exaggerates things to show you what he's talking about, right?

So he'd be standing there, he'd be going, and he kind of mimics you to copy you. Like, you know, he's being, it's like a sarcastic motion or something. So he goes, you know, something like that.

And, and he's trying to say, that's what you look like. That's what he's telling you. That's what you look like.

Okay. You know, and then you think you've got it right. And then it's too tight.

Sandra: Those things can be quite frustrating, right? If you don't like frustration, quit now.

Noonan Sensei: Just give up karate and go do something else. Well, at least give up Chito-Ryu. I don't know about other forms of karate, but if you don't like, if your, your frustration is in your thing, Chito-Ryu is not the style for you.

I tell you now, it is one frustrating journey. It still frustrates me in many areas. But if you apply your mind to the problem, you'll solve it.

You have to apply yourself. You have to apply your thinking and your physicality. And if you apply yourself hard enough to anything, you'll overcome.

And I suppose that's what karate really teaches you in a real way, because everyone can say that. Like everyone can say, oh yes, look, if you persevere, you'll get through it. Okay.

Well, that's a true statement. Anyone can say that. Anyone can say, anyone can say, no, I'll be, I'll get through it.

Everyone can say that, but how do you know if you haven't done it? If you haven't persevered, if you haven't sat in Seiza for the 30 minutes or when, I shouldn't say that, but in the event that somebody went longer than 30 minutes for whatever reason, like they could be have fallen asleep or something, maybe, and you're sitting there and you're thinking 30 minutes is all I can take, but you end up doing another 10 minutes on that, on those days, that hard wooden floor.

And I've always had bad ankles. And that's been silly kicking. That's from the old days of just kicking things as hard things and hard bags and people and elbows and doing the wrong thing.

You shouldn't hurt yourself. You shouldn't hurt yourself very much at all if you practice karate properly. That's, that's the truth.

But we didn't always practice it properly. So, or I didn't always practice properly. No, no fault to any of my teachers.

That's not their problem. It's mine. But if, if you, if you apply yourself, you'll get through it.

But if saying it and doing it are two separate things, and karate gives you an avenue to prove that saying to yourself, because there's no point in someone else telling you. There's no point in someone ra-raring you and motivating you. And so there's a play, a little place for that.

But if you're not motivated yourself to do it, well, it's going to be very difficult. Nobody can really get you through it. You have to have that within you.

That's my opinion anyway. But getting through hard stuff and persevering is something that you learn firsthand. And I think that's the only kind of learning for that stuff.

It has to be firsthand. And it doesn't have to be karate. I know people close to me practice music at a very, very senior high level.

And I can see the same discipline in things like classical music. I'm sure dance has very similar disciplines. And so I don't say it's just karate, but karate is a great avenue for it.

Karate is also an avenue where you have to apply your mind. So I noticed when I was in the gym, training in a gym overseas in a hotel, I usually train in a gym. There's usually an area somewhere I can do some kata and what I want to do.

But I noticed that all the people running on the treadmills now have a TV in front of them. So they're watching the news, they've got their headphones on, watching YouTube. Well, you can't do that at karate.

You have to be present. You have to be doing it. So that's kind of the difference in just fitness training, I think, and karate.

But I digress from your question. Have I had those points? Yeah, I've had heaps and heaps and heaps of those points where you get a breakthrough.

And you think it's a big breakthrough. And it probably is a big breakthrough. But in the scheme of things, in the scheme of your karate, in the lifelong pursuit of your karate, it may have just been a small little advancement, a little break.

But that was enough to set you on another path to see something that you couldn't see before. And so you might have thought you've come a long way on the journey because you see a wall or a hedge. So you look and you you're a long way away and you see this hedge and you think, well, I'll get to the edge that I'll get to the end.

But when you finally get to the end and you you manage to look over the hedge, then there's another huge distance in front of you to go. And I would liken karate to that type of thing. You get to one spot and then you think you you think you've got it.

But really, it's only the beginning of it. And Soke told me once, or he actually told my wife, I was present. And he said, Michael, a door opened and he could see like the next level, so to speak.

This was one particular year I was training. And he said, but he likes to go fast. So he ran and fell down and fell on his face, basically.

And now, you know, so he says, and he just told me, slow down with your take it step by step and learn those things. So look, it's overcoming stuff. It's a fun journey that you're doing with other people.

You're not doing it for them. They're not doing it for you, but you are doing it together. And if you're in a good dojo, whether you're doing tutorial, I don't know where we're going to publish this or not, but or any other serious karate style.

If you're in a good dojo, you'll experience that. You'll experience the pleasure of training with like minded people. And if you've got a good teacher and an experienced teacher, they'll be able to guide you through probably the tougher times.

If I could say that one of the hardest things I think is, well, for my in my life was, I always felt a bit alone because there wasn't six or seven or 10 black belts down here around me. So I was always kind of persevering on my own, doing my own training over spending time, early mornings, late nights. And of course, then when, you know, family comes along, um, you have, you have choices to make, but they don't have to be either or, if I can say that.

So family come to your training and things happen in your life, jobs change, this happens, another child's born or whatever it is that suddenly changes your world. You don't have to say it's either karate or this. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And in the past I'd heard a lot of that. Um, but I would, I would disagree with that now. And I think that it just depends on your commitment.

So to give you an example, I used to get up at 3 45 AM so I could go and try. I didn't have any way to train specifically because of where I was living. Um, but rain, hail or shine, summer, winter didn't matter.

I used to go down to the local park where they had a little covered area. And of course at four o'clock in the morning, nobody was around and I would train there until five or five 30. So I get my daily training in because I knew come six o'clock I had to, you know, I had family to take care of.

I had a very serious job. Uh, we can get back to light. And then when I did get back from work, there'd be more work and there'd be stuff at home to do.

Uh, so it costs you, I mean, if you want to do something and if you want to do something well, or even if you want to do something great, there's a price to pay. You have to pay that price. And sometimes it's things like sleep.

Sometimes it's things like the, your comfort, you know, getting out of a warm bed on a winter's morning. And, but anybody who's achieved anything has always experienced the same thing. I'm not saying anything that, um, other disciplines don't know or haven't said already, but it's a good reminder.

You don't have to, you don't have to say it's this or it's karate or that, you know, it doesn't have to be, you can have both and you can do well at both. Um, you may not be at the dojo as much as you'd like to. That happens.

A lot of my students get a bit worried about, Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. Life, life happens, but don't stop your personal training.

That's very important.

Sandra: So I think that's amazing. That's fantastic.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode on the Karate4Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website, Karate4Life.com.

Martin: Share it with your friend via social media and don't forget to tag us, hashtag Karate4LifePodcast. And if you've got a topic that you'd like us to cover in future episodes or a question you'd like to ask about karate or life, please send us a message.

Sandra: We'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Thanks again for joining us and stay tuned for the next episode where Noonan Sensei shares his views on what he considers to be the biggest problem with the martial arts industry. And here's a few brief highlights of what's to come.

Noonan Sensei: My dog came back, uh, you know, authorised, ninth dan, whatever. You would, you would assume if someone said Schnauzer jutsu, that there would be alarm bells ringing. I can say I started, you know, I was adopted by ninjas.

When I was two years old and uh, you know, and now I'm the 74th master of some type of ninjutsu, paid me a lot of money. Um, but every serious karate teacher should be in sex parties because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's casting a very dark shadow across everybody because people don't know.

Part 2 of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei some time ago. Noonan Sensei is currently the most senior ranked teacher of Chito-Ryu Karate-Do in Australia. In this episode he share his experiences visiting Japan for the first time as a young man.

Sandra: Hi there again. Today it's time to continue on with part two of the five-part interview with Noonan Sensei.

Martin: And if you haven't already heard the first part, be sure to go back and listen to the previous episode.

Sandra: Yeah, do that. It's great. And in this episode, Noonan Sensei will be sharing what it was like going to Japan to train for the very first time as a young man.

Martin: We've noticed everybody faces challenges in life, some big and some small, but not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It's not always easy, but we found that we always keep coming back to what we've learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that's what this podcast is all about.

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life's problems, or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin and Sandra Phillips, and welcome to the Karate4Life Podcast.

Sandra: So I guess for you, I'm sure there were some really tough days in the dojo growing up, going from white belt to black belt. So has there been any times when you wanted to quit karate? So you've been training for a number of years?

Noonan Sensei: Yeah, yeah. Not that I quit. One, I mean, I still remember it to this day.

Steve Davison had hands like mallets, like little steel mallets. They were, it was like they were heavy. So he'd make a fist and his fist looked like a mallet.

And I remember one day we were training and he did something and he hit me in the kidneys twice. Very fast, very sharp. There was no malice in it or anything like that, but it was just so, I don't know whether it was the pain of it or if it just had an emotional effect on my body.

Because I know now, which I didn't know then, that sometimes if your organs experience some type of like penetrative hit, you know, and they get shaken up, sometimes they can cause an emotional reaction. I've seen that happen to people. But, so I don't know what it was, but tears just came to my eyes.

And I've never, I don't think I've ever tried in the dojo. I don't think so anyway. But that day, I don't know how old I would have been, maybe 16, 17 or something like that.

I couldn't, I just couldn't stop. And it was, you know, it was very embarrassing because you can do that. And get on with it.

So, but I never felt like quitting at all. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you stay, I feel like quitting, but you don't really feel like quitting.

I think we all experienced that. We all know what that feels like. When I first went to Japan, you know, I had a big head and I felt I was a big shot.

And I trained really hard here. And I did lots and lots, lots and lots, but I did all the tournaments that we used to do, that we could do, because there wasn't a lot of them. And I'd be the only guy in the dojo to enter.

I'd just go by myself, because nobody else would be there. And ultimately, Steve Davis and Steve Sensei would turn up and just be there as a support for me. Or a couple of my buddies in the dojo would turn up, but they wouldn't fight.

You see, they wouldn't enter. They'd just turn up to, I don't know, be my fan club or something. But anyway, so I felt pretty good about myself.

And I went to Japan, and then it might have been the first morning training or whatever it was, it was very early on that I just realised that I'm way, way, way, way, way off the mark here. And no disrespect to my teachers whatsoever, as I've just explained to you, but technically, it was a different world. And I felt I just didn't understand any of this.

And that was very, that was heartbreaking. I wouldn't say I was back in my room crying or anything, but I was pretty depressed about it. In that little, I was sleeping in the tatami room, which both of you know downstairs at the time.

And that was pretty hard. That was kind of heartbreaking, I suppose. And I went to Soka, and I said to Soka, I want to start at white belt again.

That's what I told him. I said, I don't want black belt. I want to start again from the top.

And in his wisdom, he was very young then, he was only 35. But he's still still wise. And he said, No, no, you're good.

I don't know what he meant by that. But it was encouraging enough to say no, don't do that. Just just start training the way I tell you from now on.

And so I would say that that's probably the closest I've come from a karate sense. Sometimes you have personal things in your life, which make karate hard to do. Because there are things that you need to take care of or possibly philosophical challenges you have with the things that you do.

And having done karate from 13 years old, that sounds old now, doesn't it? That sounds starting like I was old when I started because we get kids that start at four. I don't know if you have younger younger ones than that or is it for your force?

Okay, so for I don't think you can do anything with kids under four, to be honest with you. Certainly, I don't want them in this dojo running around. But from four years old, you can kind of kind of control them.

But so but 13 if you if you think of a young man, you know, 13 years old, and you kind of become shaped by the things around you. And if you're in karate all the time, living and breathing it, then that kind of shapes you. So I suppose at some stage in your life, you look back and you think, you know, you know, am I going to keep doing this?

Or is it good for me? Whatever. So everybody has those challenges.

And I have certainly experienced those. But from a karate perspective? Yeah, maybe I don't think I've ever thought I wanted to quit.

But Japan was probably the first visit was the closest thing. For maybe a split second, I doubted why while I was doing this, but it didn't last, it wouldn't have lasted even more than a split second. And I had decided I had my solution.

And that was to go and start again. I'll just start again. That's what I thought.

And that's so yes, in terms of giving up. It's a long winded answer.

Sandra: But that's it's fantastic. I think it's, it's great that people learn. I mean, people who just meet you now, they'll see you as 7th dan Kyoshi.

And they won't appreciate that journey that you've gone through to get to that point. So I think that's a great answer. So thank you.

Okay, so you started to share a little bit about Chito-Ryu Karate in terms of how it's changed. I guess, I dare say, and if I'm wrong, please correct me. You're one of those pioneers who have helped change the direction of Chito-Ryu in Australia.

Noonan Sensei: Yes, I have.

Sandra: Could you share if you felt if there's a way to share, you know, how back when you first started, how much it has changed and in your thoughts?

Noonan Sensei: Well, it's developed. It's developed. And the important thing that this point is to say, to reassure the people that went before us that they did a great job, or else we wouldn't be here.

That's, that's very important. So change, maybe change is a bad word. I don't think it's changed at all.

It's developed. It's evolved. I think, I honestly think we're probably still, we still go in the same direction.

I know that Bill Kerr couldn't have started his dojo for any other reason but to propagate karate. I think he used to charge us 50 cents a lesson, if you paid. Some people didn't pay, I don't think.

And it was increased to a dollar at one stage. Something like that. So I'm quite sure that Kerr sensei, that Bill sensei wasn't doing it for any other reason that he loved what he did and he wanted to share it with others.

And so that's really important to say that. Now having said that, of course, the more contact you have with the source, things will change and the more time you have to spend on it. So I've, I left, I finished my HSC on, in 1985.

I think it was November, yeah it was November 1985. It was my last exam and the next day I had a flight booked. So I finished my HSC and the next day I was on a plane.

And it wasn't, as I said before, it wasn't easy. You had to get planes and buses and another plane and a train and this and that. And nobody spoke any English and there were hardly any signs, well there were virtually no signs in English.

And my Japanese was non-existent apart from a book that Steve had given me. And so I got there and because I was then 85 and 86 and 87 and 88 and 89 and 91 and every year, at least once a year. And I had really encouraged and pushed and begged and groveled and said to Soke, you have to come to Australia.

And we used to call him those days, we didn't call him Soke, we used to call him Chitose Sensei. And I really asked and pushed and please. And I think it was in 86 or 87, was it 87?

87, that was his first visit. And so of course with all, with more information, with people studying the information, with more people going, more access, the karate improves or it gets closer to what it should be, it gets closer to the source. And that's what happened with the karate here, that's how it changed.

I mean, it's changed technically, it's dramatically changed technically, dramatically. But I think the spirit, I think the spirit, the spirit that they had back then has not changed. In fact, it might have even been stronger than it is now.

I don't know, I couldn't say that. So I think it's best put like that, yeah, rather than go into any details of what's, you know, what's changed. Of course, our understanding of the things like Tanden and Shimei and Kime, you know, we could go on.

That's a day's talking in it, you know, of itself or longer. But those are the things that we started to understand. And we only understood the very, in a very small way to start with, you know, just a little, little, it was a drip.

And then, but as you keep training, as the information keeps getting more and more, and you keep improving, you keep searching for more answers. And you grow and the people around you who are training with you or like your colleagues around you, they get better. And you see them getting better.

And that forces you to get better. And I'm very strong believer in that iron sharpens iron. So the better the people you have around you, the better you're going to be, you know, you'll run fast if you run with fast runners.

So I think that's basically it's fantastic.

Sandra: Okay, so we're touching on your experience with Soke Sensei now, as you keep on going down that path. I know earlier in this interview, you were discussing that you've got a story to tell in your first time going to Japan. Let's maybe go on to your first time going to Japan, what you experienced in terms of your travel?

Noonan Sensei: Oh, yeah.

Sandra: Well, let's see if we can.

Noonan Sensei: Okay, well, as I said, it was, it was difficult to get there. So you had to get a flight to Tokyo, Narita, then you had to get a bus to Haneda, and then you had to get a flight to Fukuoka, then you had to get a bus to somewhere else, and then a train into Kumamoto. And then we were in Kumamoto station, and I was supposed to get a tram or something, but I was, you know, this is 24 hours of travel now, or more.

And I opted to try and get a taxi. And you would know that when Soke sends your certificates, your Dan Ranks, they come in a cylinder, and it's got the address of the dojo on it. So I had that.

I had that. And so that's all I had. Because all that had happened was, it was letter writing those days, not faxes.

So Bill Sensei had written a letter, I'm sending a student, Michael Noonan, he'll be there in November. There was no date, and the reply came back, that's fine, or something, you know, send him, go for it. So, of course, growing up in Australia, you expected taxi drivers to know where they were going, or have a street directory those days, there were no Google Maps.

But I didn't realise that in Japan, and again, I could be a little bit out here, but from my knowledge that when areas were established, if you were the first house, you were number one in that area. If you're the second house, you're number two, but number two could be over there, and number one could be over there. Now, they have changed the system recently.

So I couldn't understand why this taxi driver, I'm trying to, this is where I want to go, and he's got no, he gets all the other taxi drivers together. Now, of course, my first trip to Japan, if you saw somebody else that wasn't Japanese, if you saw another white guy or something like that across the road, you'd both cross the road to meet each other just to say, oh, what are you doing here? It was like that, and people would come up to you and try and test their English on you.

I remember being on a ferry to go to Shikoku to meet Taneda Sensei's family, which was another story in itself that shall not be told ever on video, and if Taneda Sensei sees this, he'll know why I've said that. But I remember on board this big ferry, seagoing ferry, a Japanese guy came up and was practicing English, and he wanted to know, did we, have I ever eaten a koala bear? That's a true story.

He wanted to know what it tasted like, and I had to explain to him that we don't eat koalas, but so it was a bit like that, you know, nobody, you know, people were friendly, and they wanted to help, and very, very honest, you could leave your wallet on the street, and you could pick it up the next day, or somehow someone would have found where you are, and your wallet would come to you. It was like that, so, but I couldn't work out these taxi drivers, there's a big group of them now, and then more come, and then they get on their two-way radio, and I can hear them, and finally somehow someone works out, I think they called the dojo or something, and of course it was near Chuo Pool, which back in the day, everyone has been there, back in the day, that's what you tell the taxi driver, so they get you close, and then you can give them directions from there. So I arrived, and I knocked on the door, and a gentleman opened the door that I thought was Soke, a Chitose sensei, and I bowed deeply, and then he said something with a Canadian accent, it was Taneda sensei, I don't know if he remembers that, but anyway, Soke was out at the time, but he came back, and the first thing he did was give me, just gave me a new gi, and his mother was there, and she looked after me, and made sure I had enough blankets, and told me what I had to do, and then, so training was quite hard in the morning, five more, six mornings a week, five mornings at about six or six thirty a.m., and then I can't remember if it was eight or ten o'clock training started on the Saturday, but the Saturday training was for two hours, I'm not sure if Martin, if you had the same thing, was it? Yeah, six days a week, it was tough, and then you had the evening classes as well, and there were quite a few of those those days, so, but, and it was difficult because my body wasn't used to that kind of training, it was rather difficult for me to get used to it, and then the other challenge was food, because I grew up in a quite a little cosmopolitan environment, in the sense that a lot of Mediterranean food, and things like that, because my friends were from, you know, different parts of Europe, or the Mediterranean, and because I'd be over at their house, and their mothers would feed me up, and shove food down my, which I loved, but I never really had any Japanese food, we didn't even have Japanese restaurants here, we had, we had, I think we had one, maybe, if it had been open at that time, it was a Suntory restaurant in Kent Street, if anyone old would know that one, but I didn't like fish, I didn't like seafood, I didn't like raw stuff, it was like stomach turning to me, I couldn't believe, and we used to eat three meals a day with Soka-sensei, so first morning, because what's for breakfast, miso soup, rice, what looked like a boiled egg, what looked like a boiled egg sitting there, and of course fish for breakfast, and I thought, oh okay, the miso soup's okay, that's good, whatever was put in front of me, I politely ate, barely, I could just barely, I'd squeeze it down, trying to get it down, and wash it down with some ocha, some green tea, so then I thought, okay, what am I going to do with this egg, the eggs are all right, I don't mind a boiled egg, that's easy, but before I had time to do that, Soka said, this is how you do it, or words to that effect, and he made a little hole in the rice, and then of course he cracked the egg, which was raw, not boiled, into his rice, and then he put shoyu, and then he mixed it all up, okay, great, now I just had fish, now I've got a raw egg, so it was tough, and then the good people that they were, because it was not common to have foreigners there, so people would, a lot of people would come and visit and take you out for dinner, and they're really trying to put it on for you, and make a real, you know, be very generous, and you know, but they take you to a sushi restaurant, man, wrong restaurant, and I'd have to, you know, politely eat what was in front of me, and it was honestly, it was almost like torture for a while, and someone finally came along and said, you don't look well, I'm going to take you, what do you like to eat, and I said beef, meat, and so I'll take you to a steak restaurant, okay, now my mother prepared steak, and she cooked it until it was cardboard, like it, there was no rareness or juice left in it, it had to be well, well, well done, that's what I was, food I was used to, and of course the steak comes out, and I cut it, and it's bleeding everywhere, now now, and I politely asked for it to be cooked better, and I had to send it back twice, and it was still rare, because they didn't want to ruin the steak, look, suffice to say, that I got over all that, and I am, you know, the biggest fan of Japanese food, I don't think there's many people that love Japanese food as much as me, I love sushi, I love all the kind of weird sushi stuff that's out there, I love rare beef, and everything else, so that's one thing that karate influenced my life, that I would have never ever expected when I started, I didn't expect it would change my palate, change what I like to eat, so, but it was a challenge, because you're eating food you're not used to, you're training where you're not used to, you're in a different environment, so it took a bit of getting used to, and I got, you know, eventually you get used to it, eventually you get used to it, and you're feeling, you're starting to enjoy it, and so it started my, when I got there, it started like, this is really hard, and I don't know if I can, I don't know if I'm going to get through this, you know, the doubts creep in, but by the end of it, you don't want to leave, you know, and I took a group of students there in 2012, for the first time that I'd taken students, and they were only very, they hadn't been in karate for very long, maybe two years, or three years, one, two, three years maximum, maximum, and the first day at training, I looked at all their faces, and I could see that they all, and I had warned them, I'd warned every single student, do you know how hard this is, this is hard, this is not for the faint-hearted, don't go over there and embarrass me, I'm just warning you, if you want to come, you're going to do, you're going to get through this, so they knew, and they're like, yes, no, no, no problems, we'll, that's fine, we'll do it, yes, male and female alike, and of course, after the first training session, I could, I looked into their faces, and it was extremely hot, we'd gone in like June, July, or something like, killer, and I just looked into their face, and I could see everyone saying to themselves, why did I come to this, what on earth made me think that I should do this, but guess what, at the end of the trip, no one wanted to go home, and so if you're, if you are out there planning to go to Sohonbu, I would, I would do it, I wouldn't think twice, just go book a ticket, just go and do it, if you think about it too much, you'll find a reason why you shouldn't go, there's always a reason why not to do something, and if you think hard enough, you'll come up with the best reason ever not to do it, but I would throw caution to the wind, and book a ticket as soon as possible, and get over there, of course, with the permission of your teacher, and or talk to your teachers, and your sensei, talk to your sensei, and make sure that they feel it's the best thing for you as well, but if, if you're serious about your Chito-Ryu, I'd get across there as soon as possible.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode on the Karate4Life podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website karate4life.com.

Martin: Share it with your friend via social media, and don't forget to tag us, hashtag karate4lifepodcast, and if you've got a topic that you'd like us to cover in future episodes, or a question you'd like to ask about karate or life, please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts. Thanks again for joining us, and stay tuned for the next episode, where Noonan Sensei shares a bit more about his personal karate history, and here's a few brief highlights of what's to come.

Sandra: All the feedback I got from Soke Sensei was, you're just too tight, you're too tight, you're too tight.

Noonan Sensei: I think Soke must say that to every single student. He used to stand there and laugh, my karate was that bad, I think, you know, he just used to laugh at me, too tight, always, that'd be like every lesson, and he would, he, you know, he exaggerates things to show you what he's talking about, right? I got everything, my head was down, my this was this, my that was that, my shoulders were up, my blah, blah, blah, I mean, I had everything wrong with me, and, and, you know, and then you think you've got it right, and then it's too tight.

If you apply yourself hard enough to anything, you'll overcome, and I suppose that's what karate really teaches you, and I can see the same discipline in things like classical music, I'm sure dance has very similar disciplines, and so I don't say it's just karate, but karate is a great avenue for it.

It's been a while since our last episode, but in today's episode we share part 1 of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei some time ago, sharing a bit about his journey and perspectives as the most senior ranked teacher of Chito-Ryu Karate-Do in Australia.

Martin: Hey everyone, and today we'd love to share the first part of an interview we did with Noonan Sensei. A five-part series this one.

Sandra: This is going to be so good, Martin.

For those who don't know Noonan Sensei, he's currently the most senior-ranked Chito-Ryu Karate instructor in Australia, with the rank of 7th Dan, Kyoshi.

Martin: And Noonan Sensei is based in Sydney and he runs a successful karate dojo?

Sandra: Yes, he does.

And so let's now hear from Noonan Sensei as he shares his recollections of his early years in the dojo.

Martin: We've noticed everybody faces challenges in life, some big and some small, but not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It's not always easy, but we've found that we always keep coming back to what we've learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that's what this podcast is all about.

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to last problems, or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin and Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate4Life Podcast.

Sandra: Okay, Noonan Sensei, thank you for joining us today.

Noonan Sensei: Thank you.

Sandra: And I guess I'm going to get straight into this, okay. So when I first met you, you would not remember. I was a green belt at a tournament in Newcastle and I remember you coming up to me and acknowledging my kata performance.

You loved it.

Noonan Sensei: Yeah, I think I do remember that, to be honest with you. I actually do remember that.

Sandra: You're just so enthusiastic and I thought, whoa, who is this guy? And I remember that to this day. And it's funny how, you know, you get that feedback from your own teacher, but when somebody else comes to you and does that, it's like, that's extra special, right?

And my second time.

Noonan Sensei: Well, just to interrupt you, I don't do that. I don't do that lightly. I never give praise easily.

If I thought your kata wasn't very good, I wouldn't have said anything, or I would have told you it wasn't very good, but it must have been very good because I do remember, and I may not have remembered that it was you, but I do remember doing that. Now that you've jogged my memory, yes, it was you.

Sandra: Yeah, no, thank you. And I guess the second one I remember, which is an absolute massive highlight for me when I was training for one of my Soke Cup events, my husband, Martin, shared with me a video of you doing kumite in 1992 at the Soke Cup. And I could not believe the intensity and the timing.

It was just incredible. I've been around sport karate for only a short time, but to see someone fight in that way, it was just mind-blowing. And to this day, I still refer to that video to this day and say, go and check it out.

The timing's incredible.

Noonan Sensei: Well, thank you. I had a good tournament that year. I didn't always have good tournaments, but that year I felt particularly good.

And I think we still had the old Ippon and Wazaari those days. And I remember I particularly got a lot of Ippons that tournament, so I felt pretty good about things, to be honest.

Sandra: That's really cool. So I guess I was reflecting on those things, right? And it's only two events in my life, but they're obviously very profound for me.

But when I go and talk to my students about you, I don't think it's right just to share those two things. And I can share some more recent stories, fair enough, but it's like, well, who is this man? And I don't really know you that well when I think about it as far as your training history.

I've learned a lot this week with you. It's been wonderful to learn about that. But I think it'd be wonderful to be able to share with our students, share with them about who you are, because you weren't always Kyoshi, you know, you've had an incredible journey.

So maybe if we started off with your current level, if that's okay. And also, how long have you been training for, please?

Noonan Sensei: Right. I've been training since 1980, I started. And I wasn't very committed when I started.

I was kind of one of those kids that were, yeah, I went, I didn't turn up, I went again. But somewhere in that, probably first six to nine months, something clicked, and I got a passion for it. And I ended up, you know, going a bit karate crazy, and leaving a lot of other things in my life to the side when I, probably that wasn't the wisest decision at the time, but I was only a kid.

Currently, I am a 7th Dan, and the title of Kyoshi. So that's where I am at the moment.

Sandra: That's fantastic. So can we ask what motivated you to start karate? So why did you start karate?

Noonan Sensei: People ask me that, and I suppose they're expecting a philosophical response to that. But I won't say I grew up in a real tough neighbourhood, but it was tough enough, right? It wasn't a walk in the park.

And all the guys that I hung out with, they were all doing karate because everyone wanted to know how to fight. So I thought, well, I'd better do that too, you know, if everyone's learning. So that's why I started.

It's that simple. I just started because I wanted to learn how to fight. And then, of course, another wave of Bruce Lee mania hit our group and our area and everyone.

Of course, we were up at the local cinema watching Bruce Lee, and I guess it all went on from there.

Sandra: I love it. That's so cool. So if you can paint a picture for us, your first time going into the dojo, what was it like?

Noonan Sensei: Well, Botany Dojo, I can still remember the smell, you know, because those old church halls and the dust and we would pile all the pews up in the corner and, you know, get everything out of the way and had a dark wooden floor. The first time, of course, was scary. And I think that's, I think I know here, even in this dojo, when kids come in their first class is a bit, they're a bit worried.

And adults as well. It's not just kids or little kids. It's adults and teens.

They also get a bit nervous. And I don't remember how exactly I felt, to be honest with you. But I'm sure knowing my personality at the time that I would have been quite, you know, a bit afraid and a bit concerned.

I didn't know what was going to happen. And we had some pretty serious karate people in that dojo. So let's say it wasn't as welcoming as we probably are today.

If that makes sense.

Sandra: Yeah, yeah. So I know one of your teachers, Kerr Sensei, not well, but just, you know, very, very small amount. Can you share more about your teachers?

Noonan Sensei: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I was only thinking about that this morning. And, you know, I'll probably get teary and I never cry, but I probably gonna be teary thinking about him.

So Bill Kerr, Bill Sensei, as he's, you know, very affectionately known, run the Botany Dojo. And he's still around. He's up in Queensland and he's still training.

And I believe he'd definitely be in his 80s. We stay in contact. I sent him up a new gi the other day and he sent me some photos.

I'm actually just going to put a couple of photos up of all these people when I get a chance. So I got some nice photos of him there. Look, he was a very encouraging man.

He was very fit. He trained hard. I don't think it's any secret that we had less knowledge those days.

That's the knowledge we have today. It's only because we've been able to stand on the shoulders of others. Travel was very difficult, obviously.

Travel was very expensive. And to get to Japan and to organise that and people have to work. And so it wasn't, there wasn't as much knowledge coming out of Japan.

It was maybe dribs and drabs. So he was, he ran the dojo and certainly he was my teacher and he was very inspirational. And then there was another couple of very, there was another senior person there named Steve Davison.

God rest his soul. Steve's passed away now. And he was, he was a really hard training, tough guy.

I don't know what else to say about him, but he was also a very caring person. But he just looked so scary that nobody, all the young fellas like me were too afraid to talk to him, you know, just be training hard and sweating and grunting and so on. And people would just be too afraid to even speak to him.

But when I was about 15, I think, maybe a little older, I plucked up the courage to approach him and say, would you, would you mind if you, you know, gave me some extra lessons and, and that kind of thing. And so we used to train from 6pm to 8pm Monday, Wednesday. That was the normal hours.

It wasn't this, it wasn't a 40 or 45 or an hour, an hour and a half lesson. It was always two hours. And we did a whole range of things.

But after class, then I would train with Steve for another two hours, maybe sometimes longer. And, you know, I'd either had walked to Karate or caught a bus or something as a couple of kilometres away, maybe if I'd ridden my bike, or else he would, I'd drive my bike home if I'd ridden it to Karate. But if I hadn't, he'd chuck, you know, I'd jump in his van and he'd, he'd drop me off, and off I'd go.

But they were, he was, you know, he was, he expected you to train hard. There was, there was that expectation upon you. And as many of my, if they're listening to this, and many of my friends and, you know, who, very few of them are doing Karate today.

In fact, I don't think any of them doing it really. But they will attest to the number of bruises that I would have on my body, I would be black and blue, literally. You know, I'd never get punched in the face or lose a tooth or a broken nose or nothing like that.

But, you know, we used to do a lot of sparring after class, and it wasn't tournament sparring, it was really type of dojo sparring. And so, you know, he, for lack of a better term, he really hardened me up, and showed me a real, almost like a Spartan side of Karate, which there is, there is that side of Karate. And then the third person to have a lot of influence, of course, we're talking about Australian people now, at Botany, was Charlie Kudlic, Charlie Sensei.

And Charlie went to Japan, it was either 83 or 84 for the first time. I know he was there in 84, because he was present when O Sensei passed away, and he was at his funeral. And he met Yamamoto Sensei and some other guys that had come in for the funeral.

But he was a, well, he is a great guy, and he's still, he's still, I mean, Bill Sensei is still a very good personal friend. I consider him that, and of course, so is Charlie. But Charlie would take me, you know, come over, pick me up on the weekend, and we'd go training for three or four hours.

And he just, I mean, they were good enough to put a lot of time into me. They did, they gave me a lot of their time, which I didn't deserve necessarily, or I couldn't afford in, there's no way I could ever pay them for that. But they were just kind enough and generous enough to give me their time.

And, and I'm certain that, you know, the reason that, you know, if I've reached, if I've reached some level of competence, I believe that the reason would be because their effort and time that they put into me. But, and Charlie was, of course, the guy that really encouraged me to go to Japan. So Steve said, you should, you've got to go to Japan.

And Charlie said, yeah, you've got to go, go to Japan, you know. And it was a year, it was 85 when I first went. So he, he was going that year.

And he kind of mapped out how to get there, because if you want to go into it later on, I can give you some of that story. But it wasn't a, it wasn't as easy as it is today. And there was no Google Maps and Google Translate or anything else.

So it was, I see a husband there smiling because he's been through exactly that. So it was, it was a little more difficult, the logistics of getting to Japan those days. But he really encouraged me to go and kind of kept his eye on me while we were there together for a portion of time.

And he kept his eye on me and attempted to keep me on the straight and narrow while I was there. So those, those three guys, I would say played a very important role, those three gentlemen, and I still have a great deal of respect for all of them. And I consider them close, close friends.

Sandra: It sounds amazing. They sound like wonderful men.

Noonan Sensei: Yes, they were.

Sandra: I got to say, it got me curious, like the training. You got to share some stories from, I mean, there's going to be some young people watching, some old people watching, they're going to want to hear, well, what did you do? I mean, I've seen photos of Kerr Sensei with these jumping kicks.

And yeah, I know it sounds insane. But can you share a little bit?

Noonan Sensei: Well, I have that photo somewhere. So we can put it on, on, on this interview of him way up in the air. And he was, he is, he's a very, he doesn't have a huge frame.

He's very light and very fast, but he's very strong too. But he, I remember him kicking Steve Davison with his legendary knee dungarees, double front kick, double jumping front kick. And he kicked him and he hit him in the chest and he drove him through the walls, the fibro walls of the toilet.

So we had to, there was some old, you know, the Churchill and there's a couple of old toilets there in the back and they were of some type of material. Obviously it was like a fibro material or something. And of course we had that, Steve and Bill and all that, they had to replace that because Steve smashed through that.

It was not uncommon to have blood on the dojo floor regularly. That was certainly the case. It was not uncommon that people got broken ribs.

We used to spar without virtually any equipment. And then as it progressed a little more, people were wearing gloves and shin pads. That was about it.

And I mean, we didn't have a lot of money those days and it wasn't a wealthy area by any means. So nobody had the top line equipment or anything like that. It was a pair of bag gloves or something that you picked up somewhere.

It was things like that. So there was no standard for what type of equipment you wore. Even if you wore equipment or not, whatever it was.

And again, if there's people that were in that dojo at that time, they would remember Bill Sensei, you know, yelling out, form a circle. And then when he said that, we all knew, oh, here we go. And everyone had to sit down in a big circle.

And we usually just crossed our legs and we sat down in a big circle. And then he'd just pick out two people and put you in the middle and then you'd have to go at it. And that's true.

That's what we did. And because of his military background of being a clearance diver, which is a very, very high level in the Navy, he also had a lot of self defence. He'd done judo as a young man.

So he would include those kind of judo throws and things that he knew. So the class would start with a lot of basics and then kata. Of course, no, warm-up, I should say.

I apologise. There was always a warm-up, always a stretch, always physical push-ups, sit-ups, whatever it was. And then the kata, sometimes you'd be fighting or one and two-step sparring, and then some self defence sometimes.

It just really depended on what the mood was, I think, what he felt like he wanted to do. And so it was pretty tough. And I believe, so I don't want to overstep my knowledge, but I know that previous to Bill Sensei being there, Vance Prince had been there.

And I never met Vance at all. I didn't know him as a person. I didn't train under him, so I'll just make that very clear.

But I know that it was very extreme in some of his training. And they used to do, before my time, they used to do a lot of Zenkutsu Dachi, and then that changed once we had more contact with Japan. I believe that was a throwover from Tsuruoka Sensei in Canada, where he had introduced Zenkutsu Dachi and a more Shotokan-ish approach.

Again, I don't want to be criticised for those comments because I don't know exactly. That's what I've been told. But Steve told me, he said, we used to stand in Zenkutsu Dachi and he'd come along and he wouldn't hit you with a shinai, he'd have a bow.

And he said, I remember him breaking the bow across my thigh, snap, cracking the bow across my thigh. So there was maybe a little bit too extreme. But I think all dojos were similar to that back in the day.

I don't think we were, rarely, I think everyone was going to train like that. And we used to do these little small circles. I don't know what the use was for them, and I don't know why we ever did them.

But we used to do a lot of them until the ache in your shoulders was horrendous. And I know that some people even their, you know, blood vessels burst, little blood capillaries and that burst in there. Again, pardon me for my, I'm not a medical professional, but yeah, so it was, nobody was, nobody that I knew really, there probably was a couple of nasty guys in the dojo, but nobody really was a nasty type of character and wanted to go and hurt other people.

But everyone just went hard and injuries occurred because everyone was going hard and we lacked, we lacked technique in many ways, and we lacked probably a bit of control too. Um, and we lacked the right equipment to practice correctly. So, but having said that, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it.

I'm happy. I'm happy going through that. I wouldn't change a bit of it.

Um, um, I'm very happy to have met the people that I have and, and trained, uh, where we did.

Sandra: That's wonderful. So, I mean, from what you're sharing, I'm sure there would have been a lot of people who couldn't have stand, like stood that test of, you know, challenging training.

Noonan Sensei: That's true.

Sandra: So, I mean, for people who are training now, it might not be that extreme, but I guess in our dojos, there are still, you know, time to get out of that comfort zone. We have to, to grow. Um, what's your advice to people?

I mean, as a young person going through that toughening up, how did you keep going when it was tough? Were there examples?

Noonan Sensei: Well, well, we lived in a, um, we lived in a different world in, in a sense, um, probably philosophically a different world. Uh, and young men and young boys didn't want to be seen as weak, at least where I grew up. Nobody wanted to be seen to give up.

Nobody wanted to see them to have a sook or a cry in the corner for something. And, um, so there was no need for any, nobody encouraged you to keep going. No one patted you on the back and said, you'll be right.

It wasn't, that was, that didn't exist. It just, uh, everyone just, I think it was, we just expected this, this, this is what karate is. And so if you're going to do karate, you better do it or else don't do karate.

That's what it was. Um, today, uh, you know, it's different. It really is different.

Um, and I mean, what's my advice? What do I tell people? What do I seriously say to kids?

I say, suck it up, stop being a princess, harden up. And, uh, I don't mind if you cry because we do get quite a few kids here who cry occasionally. And not cause I'm beating them with a stick or anything, just to make sure that's, um, but because they're training hard or they're stretching, we're stretching hurts to a point where, you know, I try and push them along and stretching hurt a fair bit, or we're training hard and they're going beyond their limits.

So I just say, look, I don't care if you cry, but just don't give up. That's my advice. Um, and I know I, I, I half jokingly because they know that and you can't see there, but up there, we've got a blank wall, just so you people on the video know it was a blank, big blank wall.

And I, the kids know now, but I say to them, you know, read the invisible sign. What's it say? No whinging, no sooking, uh, you know, no slack in and off, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And, uh, you know, they get it then. And kids, uh, we've seen a tremendous amount of change in, uh, young people's lives. Uh, but genuinely today, uh, the girls now, maybe they were always tougher.

Don't get me wrong. Probably they were, we just had less girls training, less ladies training, less females training back in the day. Um, but today I would say definitely the girls are a lot mentally stronger than the boys when it comes to pushing through and not giving up.

Um, I'm not, you, uh, you have run a dojo for a large professional dojo even longer than I have. So I'm not sure what your opinion is on that, but that's, that's what we tend to find here.

Sandra: No, that's great.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode on the Karate for Life podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website, karate4life.com.

Martin: Share it with your friend via social media and don't forget to tag us, hashtag Karate for Life podcast. And if you've got a topic that you'd like us to cover in future episodes or a question you'd like to ask about karate or life…

Sandra: ...please send us a message. We'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Thanks again for joining us and stay tuned for the next episode where Noonan-sensei shares some of his personal karate history. And here's a few brief highlights of what's to come.

Sandra: I guess for you, I, I'm sure there were some really tough days in the dojo growing up, going from white belt to black belt.

So has there been any times when you wanted to quit karate?

Noonan Sensei: Sometimes you say, I feel like quitting, but you don't really feel like quitting. I think we all experienced that. We all know what that feels like.

When I first went to Japan, I, you know, I had a big head and I felt I was a big shot. And it was very early on that I just realised that I'm way, way, way, way, way off the mark here. Technically, it was a different world and I felt I just didn't understand any of this.

In the episode we going to wrap up our mini-series about ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki as we take a deeper look into the forth and final element riki: technique & power.

The forth element, is literally power, but is often referred to as technique. This alludes to the fact that real power is created from correct technique, rather than physical strength.

This final principle relies on the correct application of the preceding principles first, without proper use of eyes, legs & attitude, the opportunity to generate natural power through correct technique is lost.

Martin: Hey everyone, this is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome back to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Today we want to dig a bit deeper into the basics of karate and life...

Martin: ...taking a closer look at the forth and final element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - technique and power.

We've noticed that everyone faces challenges in life, some big some small. But not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It’s not always easy, but we’ve found that we always keep coming back to what we’ve learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that’s what this podcast is all about...

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life’s problems. Or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Getting a bit excited today, Martin, as we come to a close with our Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan Shi Riki series. How are you feeling about this?

Martin: It's really good to get it wrapped up. It's been a bit of a mission, hasn't it, to get through all of these? It's quite a lot of ground we've covered.

Sandra: There's been some great feedback though. It's really been helping some people in their dōjō but also in their lives as well. We're learning that quite a few people are also having chats with their kids about this sort of stuff.

Martin: Yes, it's really good to see how especially the parents, they listen to this and they take it in themselves as the parents of the training course, they take it in themselves and they're sharing with their kids and it's creating a bit of a conversation point. This is what we're doing this for in the first place is to hopefully get a bit of that happening.

Sandra: Yes, it's fantastic, isn't it? Well, look, let's just get ourselves moving into this last episode for this particular series and see how we go.

Martin: Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan Shi Riki. What's the saying Soke's Kyohon (Soke's teaching manual)?

Sandra: We have Riki is technique. "Through diligent training of Kata and Kumite, technique will develop naturally."

Now I know this disturbs you just a little bit. Do you want to share why it disturbs you certainly it gets you questioning?

Martin: I'm always a little bit disturbed by this but it's okay, that's a good thing.

Sandra: It gets you thinking deeply.

Martin: It makes me think and I love that, I love that. Again, the character that's used to describe this Riki is literally power and yet in that description there, there's no description of power at all and I asked myself that question if the character says power, why are we not talking about power? This is technique, we're talking about technique. I did come up with a bit of an answer to this but I don't know you....

Sandra: Yes, but I mean we're having a chat a bit earlier as well and we both reflected on our journeys. We both agreed that when we first started our training, we focused on trying to be really powerful and being strong.

Martin: That's the mistake that everybody makes, if the focus is on power, yes through the process of developing good technique you will generate natural power and that's the goal. If you focus on developing power, most people will misinterpret that and think physical strength which is the opposite of what we're trying to do. As we say in training we see so many people far more advanced than us that are able to generate incredible power and yet they have such small bodies.

Sandra: It's a very natural power, isn't it?

Martin: Yes, natural power and that's the way I like to describe it, looking at natural power as opposed to physical strength.

Sandra: Yes and so this power I guess in our training and as you've just said we have people who are way ahead of us doing this. We're quite young on our journeys really with this but in our experience so far, we can both say that once we flipped it on the head and we stopped focusing on trying to be powerful and we went back to Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan and we went through that process, and we layered that continually over and over and over again, going deeper and deeper, we naturally found more power.

Martin: Through the practice and study of technique. I guess that's why this fourth one, one way that I'll have this described to me that Shi Riki, the fourth element being technique is all those little things that make things work.

Sandra: When you get back into life, it's the little things in life which make a big difference. If you do them.

Martin: Yes, that's one that you love to talk about all the time.

Sandra: I do when it comes to you.

Martin: What are you trying to say?

Sandra: No, it's good. For those who are listening and who of course do practice karate, for our personal experiences and we can only speak for ourselves of course. If you do move forward with your journey and you have experienced the thought of, "I just want to be more powerful and get more physically stronger," and you trained with that mindset, it'll only get you so far potentially.

Martin: You'll hit a wall really really quickly.

Sandra: There's a ceiling on that.

Martin: You'll hit your limit. That's why we're going, as I say, through that process, go through those elements. First, the eyes Ichi Gan, second is stance Ni Soku, San tan, develop that spirit, that guts and determination and then we will get the technique which is getting your body in the right position.

Sandra: Don't you think the most exciting thing of this, is it just me? I love application. When you go through this cycle time and time again, you go deeper. Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan and Shi Riki you get more effective in your application in being able to do your application while I guess all different bodies. For me, that's quite exciting. How about you?

Martin: Yes, absolutely. That's the thing I love about partner training application is when you first start to try and teach someone how to do some self-defence techniques, for example, when you see a beginner trying to do it, first thing you see is they're just trying to use their arms to do all the work. Then you realise, "Okay, the condo got the idea, they've got the general form of it," but how effective is it really until you start to look at these elements of how do you move your body? How do you align your body? How do you position yourself? How do you use your stunts? How do you use your eyes?

When you put all those elements together, you're able to make things work, like you were saying before, in an effortless way.

Sandra: It's quite beautiful, isn't it? You're doing things and it's like, "How did that actually work?" It will amaze you when it first happens to you. Would you agree?

Martin: Yes, it is. That's the thing I love about partner training is so many times of having being both on the receiving end and the giving end, if somebody is throwing you to the floor, they barely touched you, and you're looking up from the floor and going, "How the heck did I just get there?" You've hit the ground really hard.

Sandra: Yes, it's funny. I don't know who said this to me on my journey many, many years ago. They said to me that if you have to try hard to throw somebody or to try hard to do a punch, it's a good chance of doing it incorrectly. But if you feel the punch just happens with no force and it's effortless and it just flows as with throwing somebody else, it just works, it's a good chance that you're on the right track.

Martin: It's a good chance that you're on the god track, yes.

Sandra: I don't know who told me that, they used to really frustrate me when I was coming through trying so hard to get physically tougher.

Martin: I love seeing those light bulb moments in class when you see students in particular. You see these big strong men. They're trying to do something, working really hard and it just doesn't work for them, and you give them a little bit of encouragement just to relax, sink into their stance and breathe, and they do it again, and it's like they barely put any effort into it and the other person is just flying across the room.

Sandra: Yes. It's pretty amazing to watch.

Martin: We saw a little bit of that last night, didn't we?.

Sandra: Yes, that was pretty amazing stuff. I love that. I got a sore foot, by the way, it's all bruised, not impressed.

Martin: Sorry about that.

Sandra: That's all good. I was just going to go into just sharing a bit about my own personal train when I trained with you, of course. I share this in a way where it may, I guess, resonate with somebody who's listening. Often you'll say to me, "Eyes up," because when I'm thinking about doing something new, I'm trying to explore a certain application, my eyes will often come down and once my eyes come down, you're always the first to say, "Get your eyes up." It's like moving a brick, a massive boulder, I cannot move you when I have my eyes down in that thinking mode.

Martin: That's a really common thing you get especially because you're a very kinesthetic learner. Most kinesthetic learners when they're trying to process something, they're trying to get it, and they're trying to feel something, their eyes will drop. Their eyes will drop down and they're trying to get their body to feel something, but in the process of doing that, they've broken their structure and their posture, and it actually doesn't work. That's the tricky thing for kinesthetic learners is to keep your eyes up while you're actually doing something is absolutely essential, which gets right back to element number one first the eyes, and this was number one.

Sandra: Actually, a funny thing that you say that I think it's a habit of mine because when I was training in Japan one year I was trying to improve my sanchin dachi and I was looking down at my feet as I was stepping forward, and I had a bit of a nudge from Soke Sensei saying, "Hey, eyes up."

[laughter]

Martin: Yes, he picks it up all the time, doesn't he.

Sandra: It's good to be practicing and trying hard to develop a stance, but you've got your eyes down then it's not really going to help you anyway, it's the eyes first.

Martin: Eyes first and then let's say you get those eyes working, and this is where you pick me up quite often is because I'm a little bit bigger, I can get away with muscling things a little bit too much. As a bigger person, I do that. I tend to do that, and a lot of beginners will tend to do that because it's just what they naturally do because that's what they know. They know to use their physical strength. You continually remind me, "Get that power from your legs". Next the stance.

Sandra: Yes, the stance is so.... Actually last night when you were throwing me around, you barely touched me when you get that stance locked in.

Martin: Finally, it finally works, yes.

Sandra: Do that. You dropped me beautifully. I love it.

Martin: You're a twisted soul, aren't you?

Sandra: It's wonderful.

Martin: You love it when I beat you up. What sort of husband and wife team, is this?

Sandra: What are we talking about? Let's just keep on moving on. We know that to get us to achieve natural power in the dojo, we want to go through Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan. You're going through a process there.

Martin: The eyes, the stance--

Sandra: That's right. If we're moving into everyday life, we have the same kind of thing and it's a very personal thing for people to work out what would be the key elements to them in their life, which would create a natural power and ease and flow in their day. Rather than forcing to get power out of their day and to move through and force their way through every single task. There must be a few key elements which will make it more easier for people to move their lives.

Martin: It's easier to create that natural power, that natural movement forwards. Again, this is something that you've studied in great depth. I'm just going to stand back and let you talk.

Sandra: As I was coming through for many years, and I still do it to this day, I studied my key basics that we have in the dojo but I also studied my life basics. I'm always trying to improve things which I feel are very important to me, which keep me feeling very happy, energetic, alive, and very loving to all people around me. It's simple things like the sleeping well, except when you're snoring, of course, we have to work on that a little bit more. Sleeping is a really good way in getting good rest. Eating good food. What you put in is really important. Drinking plenty of water really helps.

Having some time in the sun is a wonderful thing for me and time in nature. I love beach walks and going out for paddles and just being out in the garden watching you do all the work. Not me doing anything, of course. Things like moving every day so why do we have to say, "I can only train two or three times a week?" Why can't we incorporate movement into our day every day? For me, there's some of my main ones which I actually put into my day, every day and I actually monitor every day that I'm doing these things because these things bring out a better version of myself to go into my day feeling great.

Martin: There's one more. I'm just going to pull out that when you were talking about earlier, you mentioned; just the people you spend your time with and how you spend your time. That's two more really. They have a really big impact on you, your energy levels, and your productivity and how you feel about life.

Sandra: So true. Get some good people in your life who can really help you move forward to those next levels but also be supportive on those lower days for you as well. 100%. I think it's moving on time there pretty quickly today. Just wrapping up for Ichi Gan Ni Soku San Tan Shi Riki, please Martin.

Martin: To wrap up, number one is the eyes. Get your eyes up, take in what's going on around you, and look at how you're seeing the world so there's a chance to see how close your opponent is, see where the potential threats are.

Number two, using the stance, using your legs. Just to get back to those keywords from before. Stability, mobility, and power generation all come from your legs.

Third element, San Tan, is the grit and determination. That's that emotional element that you bring to your technique. That's the fight that you bring. That's the desire to move forwards, the desire to do whatever it takes to get things done.

Today, we're looking at technique, the technique that leads to natural power. A lot of ground covered, hey?

Sandra: Yes and we only touched on the surface, really. You'd spend months and months to discussing these over and over again.

Martin: We keep on going deeper and deeper.

Sandra: It's just a surface level which would also need the people to don't just leave it at that but to take that as a starting point for all those four areas and then to go deeper within their own training.

Martin: And in life.

Sandra: And in life.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website karate4life.com

Martin: Share it with your friends via social media and don't forget to tag us #karate4lifepodcast.

And if you've got a topic that you’d like us to cover in future episodes or questions about karate or life...

Sandra: Please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Coming up in the next episode we'll take a deeper look at the forth and final element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - technique & power.

In the episode we continue going deeper into ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki as we take a deeper look into the third tan power: grit, determination, guts, tenacity, an indomitable spirit that won’t back down.

Sometimes you just have to ask yourself the question,

"How bad to you want it?"

Technique alone won't win you a fight or get you out of a tough situation.

We've seen it so many times in competition, the best fighters don't always win. It's not just about your speed, power, technique or even how well you understand the strategy of the game.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog."

Martin: Hey everyone, this is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome back to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Today we want to dig a bit deeper into the basics of karate and life, taker a closer look at the third element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - grit & determination.

Martin: We've noticed that everyone faces challenges in life, some big some small. But not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It’s not always easy, but we’ve found that we always keep coming back to what we’ve learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that’s what this podcast is all about...

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life’s problems. Or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Moving forward Martin today, we are moving on to San Tan but I dare say without Ichi Gan Ni Soku, this won't be all that much fun.

Martin: Yes, there's a reason this is number three. Although it's incredibly powerful and it can carry you a long way forward, I think it definitely worked best when you've got those foundations of the first two elements in place.

Sandra: I guess Ichi Gan Ni Soku tend to I guess, position yourself, prepare yourself, creating that always ready feel about you. This is what really takes it to a whole lot new level and drives you towards wherever you want to go.

Martin: Yes, it turns it up a notch, doesn't it?

Sandra: Yes, and as we probably would learn very, very soon, it does enable you to do bold attacks. Whether it's in life or in a Dojo, makes it very, very possible when we add this element.

Martin: Yes. It certainly does. May be we should explain what it's all about.

Sandra: Yes, sure thing. We have San Tan, should we just read this from...

Martin: Going back through it, so Ichi Gan, first, the eyes, Ni Soku, second, the stance or the legs, San Tan maybe we've coined it as grit and determination, which you kind of see from this explanation we're about to read out. This is from Soke's teaching manual the kyohon. Could you do the honours there?

Sandra: Yes, sure thing. "Tan refers to the liver. Tan power is the foundation for cultivating ki power, will power, perseverance, and endurance. By cultivating Tan power, spirit sickness (Shikai), and other such weaknesses are gone. Correct judgment ability results and bold attacks are possible."

Martin: Yes, there's a lot there hey. A lot there. I'll just get back to the very first part as I mentioned previously, Tan refers to the liver. I've done a little bit more research on this one. It's not specifically liver as an organ, but it's literally that colloquial term "the gut" when you have that gut feeling or somebody shows guts. Liver is probably a little bit of a misnomer there.

The other one is probably worth repeating once again, is Tan is a different thing to Tanden as a term we hear here in the Dojo quite a bit. Tanden refers to the energy center located in the lower abdomen. While it's very much related to Tan power, they're not one and the same. They're two different things. Let's carry on anyway.

Sandra: All right. Let's take a very different perspective on this one compared to what we have taken with Ichi Gan Ni Soku. Let's go down a road that you are all too familiar with, your past. Let's see if we can do a bit of digging down there in terms of San Tan and see if we can help people identify San Tan in action around them. If we go back to your early days in the Dojo, even in life I guess, in the community that you're living and growing up in.

Could you think back to any examples or moments when you become aware of San Tan?

Martin: Yes, I guess maybe not necessarily specific moments, but I guess that feeling within the Dojo, within the Dojo community. The Dojo that I grew up in when I very first started training in Chito-Ryu was a bit of a rough area or known to be a bit of rough area. The kinds of people that were attracted to the Dojo naturally had this Tan Power about them. They were fighters. Not necessarily fighters as in physically hitting people, fighting with each other.

They were battlers, they had something to prove in life and that came out in everything they did in the Dojo. They way that they trained. They just threw everything into what they did. They trained with guts and determination. You could see if the training thing was to go and do 100 push ups, they go and do 200. They just throw everything into it. I remember back in the early days when you started training, you were very much like this.

You had your own story, you had some challenges to overcome, and it took a lot of guts and determination to get through that.

Sandra: I think for me, although I was having a hard time and then dealing with some significant bad times in my life at that time, I think for me personally, there was a lady by the name of Charlene. She was one of the black belts in that Dojo at that point in time and I don't think I really had a lot of time with her coming through, but the time that I did have with her, she was extremely confident.

I don't think I truly understood the energy that she had created in her journey, but it was very, very powerful. I guess, if you said no to her, I dare say, she'd say, "No way. I'm just going to go and do something."

Martin: Yes, she was very much like that.

Sandra: I couldn't imagine her ever backing down from anything.

Martin: I had quite a bit of time with Charlene and we literally grew up in the dojo together. She's my senior in age and we literally started training on the same day. We stepped into the dojo the very first day the dojo opened and she trained her butt off. She became the first in what became the WKF, World Karate Federation, she became the first Australian and the first Chito-Ryu practitioner to become WKF World Champion.

It wasn't called the WKF back then but what's now the WKF. I don't think it was because she's technically excellent, although she is very, very talented, certainly very talented, it's largely because of this determination. She had something to prove.

Sandra: I guess for a young person coming through for me, I did latch onto that energy about her and I thought, "You know what? I don't know what it is, but it feels good." For me at that point in time, going through some hard times, I latched on to that and there were days where I'd be thinking, "What would Charlene do right now?" It sounds kind of funny, but I would actually use that often and think, "How would she deal with this? Would she back down?"

That was one thing I found for me where I first experienced that San Tan for me. It wasn't actually through me personally, but it did evolve because of that influence in my journey.

Martin: There really have been some amazing people in both of our journeys along the way that have demonstrated this Tan power. It really is incredible, isn't it?

Sandra: I think we're both very, very blessed to have some great role models in that area, 100%. I guess what gets me even more excited the more I study this is learning about shikai and how that when we truly do practice San Tan in all areas of our life, then we can actually have the shikai and not be present in our lives.

Martin: You probably should explain what that actually means.

Sandra: Doesn't everybody know what shikai is? Everyone should know that.

Martin: You don't know what shikai is?

Sandra: Everyone should know what that is.

Martin: Maybe just a quick explanation. Again we might just read from Soke's teaching manual here.

Sandra: Okay, "Shikai. The four sicknesses of the spirit are surprise, fear, doubt, and perplexity. If even one of these occurs, spirit is disordered, emotional balance is off, and one will be daunted and then a weakness will develop from within oneself."

Martin: So by developing this Tan power, we are able to cut away these shikai. We're able to stop this from happening.

Sandra: For me when I first realized that, that was just incredible.

Martin: It's gold, isn't it?

Sandra: To think that there was one thing I could do to control something which would alleviate anxiety and fear.

Martin: Yes, I guess this is I guess the foundation for pretty much mental illness as a whole, isn't it?

Sandra: Very much so. That's what I'm saying. It's really, really exciting this. You've got to latch onto this one and practice San Tan in all that you do.

Martin: Okay, let's get back to in the dojo. I'm going to throw this one at you today. When you're looking at developing this Tan power, this is something that's absolutely essential. How do you do it?

Sandra: For me personally, it would be a case by case. Everyone's a little bit different with how they experience life, and we have to come to the place where that person is at. I think that would be the most important thing because if you think you're going to help somebody develop San Tan in the way it doesn't actually match their personality, you're going to lose some really good people out of the dojo.

For me, it's more about coming to where they are at in their life there and then and think what is the best way to help them get some grit in what they're doing.

Martin: This can be a really confronting journey to start to develop this.

Sandra: Very much so. When I watch people stepping, just basic stepping in their stances, I study this so deeply. You probably know this yourself, when you're watching somebody stepping 10 steps forward and 10 steps back. I've got people who I work with who step forward 10 steps very, I guess what's the word, hesitantly, and then they step back 10 steps and they end up being further back or at the same point.

Then, why is everybody around them getting so much further ahead than they are? Then they come back to that same spot, or they ended up back through the back wall.

Martin: Because they're really confident in going backwards.

Sandra: They're very confident going backwards and we need to help them practice San Tan to help put that intent into their step as they move forward. I love studying the technique in that way as well.

Martin: One of the things that we do for a black belt grading is this conditioning, the hundred push-ups, hundred sit-ups, hundred squat-kicks, and yes, it helps develop a strong body, but largely it's about demonstrating can someone show this Tan power, isn't it?

Sandra: Yes, and anyone that's listening right now would have multiple experiences of life going upside-down for them. Sometimes you dig yourself out of a hole, you've got to really get some grit and determination to fight your way out of that hole. I guess going towards black belt, for me, I want to know that people who do come through and earn that level of black belt, they can truly feel like this moment of "You know what? I really have grown this feeling San Tan feeling within me so well that if I was confronted by a life-changing challenge of sorts, I could dig in and practice San Tan and I could pull myself through this".

I think that's such an important thing to have for people in life these days.

Martin: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Where do we go from here?

Sandra: Well, I think we need to get ourselves ready to move on to our Shi Riki next time we speak.

Martin: Power-

Sandra: Power.

Martin: And technique.

Sandra: Very interesting I'm sure.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website karate4life.com

Martin: Share it with your friends via social media and don't forget to tag us #karate4lifepodcast.

And if you've got a topic that you’d like us to cover in future episodes or questions about karate or life...

Sandra: Please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Coming up in the next episode we'll take a deeper look at the forth and final element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - technique & power.

In the episode we continue going deeper into ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki as we take a deeper look into the second element the legs (stance).

The stance is the foundation upon which we build, it grounds us and is the basis for all movements and actions that carry us forwards.

Martin: Hey everyone, this is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome back to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Today we want to dig a bit deeper into the basics of karate and life, taker a closer look at the second element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - the stance.

Martin: We've noticed that everyone faces challenges in life, some big some small. But not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It’s not always easy, but we’ve found that we always keep coming back to what we’ve learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that’s what this podcast is all about...

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life’s problems. Or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: We've managed to wrap up Ichi Gan, the eyes, Martin, and we do need to move on to Ni Soku. Before we do that, I wanted to share with you I had quite a few people come and talked to me about the Ichi Gan, the eyes segment, and are really interested to learn a lot more about Ni Soku now. They're kind of hanging out.

Martin: The pressure.

Sandra: You've delayed this one coming out. You've had quite a busy time at the moment, but you should look at this a bit quicker I think.

Martin: We need to get it moving.

Sandra: Yes. Okay, so where should we start?

Martin: I think we'll start the same way we did last time and look at Soke's text, his teaching manual the Kyohon. I might show our video again to read it out.

Sandra: "The basis of all movement and posture. Always take care to unconsciously have correct and smooth stepping motion, stance, and way of evasion."

Martin: That's simple stuff, really. Isn't it?

Sandra: You try and do that well. Maybe if you work it out you can let me know.

Martin: Yes. A simple idea, simple but not easy.

Sandra: Okay. Well, let's see if we can break it down just a little bit more than that. When we were having a chat earlier, we were discussing three points as far as looking at the stance, looking at stability, mobility, and also power generation. Maybe let's go to the stability first, and let's see if we can unpack that just a little bit.

Martin: Stability, I guess, that gets back to what we do with our brand new beginner students. The first thing we do when we're looking at stance is literally just getting the feet in the correct position. How wide is your stance? How long is your stance? How much do you bend your knees? Creating that position of stability, but, I guess, this is where we probably need to tie back to the eyes as well.

As we talked about last time with the eyes, that creates that posture and that structure, and then the stance builds on that creating a full body structure.

Sandra: Yes, so we have those little tests in class where there's a big strike shield coming whacking at you or whether it's a one-finger test on your belt, if you don't have your eyes in the correct position, it makes it very hard to maintain a strong stance.

Martin: Yes, this is a bit of a paradox with teaching brand new students to get your feet in the right spot. Automatically most people look down at their feet. They look down at their feet, and they go, "Oh, okay. Are my feet in the right spot?" Then they might have their feet in the right spot, but because they've looked down, they've broken that structure. They've broken the posture. It kind of defeats the purpose of having their feet in the right spot in the first place because they don't have that stability.

Sandra: Yes, so true. Then, as we tend to take people through their journey with their stance, we do find that they do, in time, get their eyes back up and get their posture.

Martin: After lots of reminding normally.

Sandra: Yes. I'm still working on that. I go through cycles, maybe. What happens though is often that we get so caught up on enjoying and embracing the structure and feeling strong and the foundations feel so strong that, I guess, in the stance, for a person coming through once they have the feet in the right position, they feel this sense of structure, they then get so grounded and they have the wrong muscles working, generally they create a tightness.

Then when we have that, we lose all ability to actually move which would be mobility.

Martin: You hit the nail on the head there. Most people when they think strength in the base, they think tightness. Like you said, they just get really tight and they can't move, so what we're going to try to do is to create a feeling of tension in the base. The difference between tension and tightness is if you think of your body, the way your body works, you've got opposing muscle groups.

Tightness, I think of as you've got the opposite sides both working, they're both tight, they're both contracting. That's kind of like driving a car with the handbrake on. It doesn't go so well. When you create tension, that creates a feeling of like a stretch, like a rubber band being stretched out. Then, you have the release. Tension in the body is like when you get the muscles holding to a point, and then one side releases, and you create movement.

Sandra: That preparation is so key, isn't it? Because once you get beyond that point of just being strong and grounded and you want to get more mobile, you then start to play with the different muscles in the body, and as far as that muscle pairing, but then what we then find with people there's a progression which then gets them to a point of starting to move more explosive with their step.

When they go to kick, for example, we can get them to get that foot off the floor faster, or if we go from a punching perspective, we can get that hand from the pullback position to be released much more powerfully and faster as well. But I guess what's underlying, what I find for most people is that when you get that elasticity in the body, I find that for most people, there is no force required to get that technique executed if we truly have the eyes working well in our favour, aligning the posture.

Would you say that would be what you see as well?

Martin: Absolutely, it's key. Again, there's two parts coming back together, the eyes and the stance working together. If you have one working without the other, it doesn't work. It literally does not work. You see people who've got that amazing speed, but if their body's not aligned correctly, it becomes useless.

Sandra: So, preparing, so whether we're in the phase of just getting started on a karate journey as a beginner, just getting those feet in place and then moving on to getting your intermediate and then trying to be really tight and strong and no one can move me kind of feeling, and then eventually going to the point of going, "You know what, it's not practical to stay like this, I can't move."

Martin: If we get back to what we was talking about last time with the eyes, the first rule of self-defense, don't be where the punches are, if you're strong and stable, and can't move, you're going to be where the punches are eventually.

Sandra: It's going to be very, very challenging. Then to obviously then develop your footwork in a way where you can truly apply some great self-defense strategies and some taisabaki (body evasion) you need to be able to get your footwork to be more mobile.

Martin: Absolutely.

Sandra: Just say we were doing some exercising the dojo for a self-defense situation and we're getting people moving beyond being strong and tight, but they're moving into the place where they can be more relaxed and get more mobile and they're doing it with a great posture and eyes. What if they then were to let the eyes go? What would you normally see in a student that was getting more mobile, but then their eyes were to fail?

Martin: What we'd normally say is you have a loss in structure so the posture would drop, the accuracy of their techniques would disappear, so be the ability to actually hit a target with any accuracy goes out the window. Then you completely miss the third step, which is the power generation. If the body's not aligned properly in the first place, then you can't generate natural power. You might be able to generate power from physical strength, but the natural power that you can generate from a good structure just isn't there.

Sandra: Let's just say you had a person that was training and they'd obviously moved to the point of getting that mobility in their base and doing it for the most part at a reasonable level, and they also had the eyes also developing, so they create this always ready experience. Whether they're studying their basics or kata or bunkai, kobudo, anything, they've always got this always ready feeling.

Do you find that when people find this in all that they do, all their time in the dojo, do you find that other things will change, so there's some little things that will then enhance the effectiveness of their technique?

Martin: Yes, it adds into everything. This is why these are the first two foundational basics, the eyes and the stance, because it will literally affect everything else that you do. When you get those things working correctly, then you can start to build onto those next steps San Tan (grit & determination) & Shi Riki (technique & power) as well. That's really where, in my mind, the third element of stance comes into this as you're starting to move in towards that power generation.

Sandra: To help with that part, that process as well, there are things that we obviously do in the dojo to help people refine their stances that much more under pressure, of course. Can you share some of those thoughts?

Martin: Well, there's a classic one that we did a little bit of work within the dojo just last week, is an exercise where as an individual when you're practicing kata or a sequence, then most people tend to focus a little bit too much on stability alignment and the mobility goes out the window. They get really good at being grounded. They can move but they're not necessarily as fast.

We had a little bit of an exercise where you had an individual doing a kata. We had multiple people around them come in and attack them partway through the kata, so they had to deal with the attack and then get back to the kata, and found over the course of doing this, the individual in the middle as their awareness opened up again, back to the eye focus connecting the eyes to the stance.

As the awareness opened up more and more through doing this, we found their stance change as well and they became a lot more mobile. They became a lot quicker to respond. That's I think a really good exercise for helping to build the connection between those to a point where they get a good balance.

Sandra: Definitely, and so some people when they come through, they don't tend to appreciate, suriashi. Do you want to explain what suriashi and what you see as the benefits of suriashi?

Martin: Suriashi is literally sliding feet. The goal is when you're stepping in Chito-Ryu (the style of karate that we practise) is to slide the foot so the whole foot's in contact with the floor, and the purpose of this is to create a structure with the rest of the body. If as you step you lift the heel up, what tends to happen is it tilts the pelvis forward, as the pelvis tilts forward, it weakens the natural strength within the body.

If one foot lifts off the ground when you step, it tilts the pelvis sideways, if you lift the heel up when you step, it tilts the pelvis forwards. As a pelvis tilts, it then in turn affects everything above that and it takes away from that natural power.

Sandra: Definitely, and it certainly creates a weakness within yourself, which then could obviously be taken advantage of.

Martin: Absolutely. This is when it's fun and you start to look at this stuff in a partner context, whether you're talking bunkai applications or your self-defense or kumite (sparring), then you start to look for these things in your partner or opponent and you look at does it present an opportunity for you to take advantage of.

Sandra: It all comes back to the stance...

Martin: It all comes back to the stance.

Interviewer: ...how they're moving their bodies, how they're holiding themselves.

Martin: Again, it's that combination of eyes and stance, so eyes is your perception of what's going on in this case, in the partner context. And your stance in this case, you're analysing your opponent's stance. What are they doing? Are they presenting opportunities for you? Are they too grounded and not mobile that presents an opportunity? Are they not grounded enough and easy to take them down? What is the opportunity that this presented?

Sandra: That's perfect. Well, look, let's just move on really quickly. I know we can do a lot more with that, but people also ask us with Ichi Gan Ni Soku, we talk about karate for life. With Ni Soku, what do you see in your mind that at least would be a way that you would use this in your life?

Martin: Well, it's again, a great metaphor for your stance is what carries you forwards in life. When we talk about goals or things that you want to achieve, you talk does this goal have legs? Literally, does it have legs? Is it something that has a path forward? Is it something that you can move with?

Sandra: So, you start first with the vision, the clarity of that with the Ichi Gan, eyes first, so know what you want, where you want to go, and be very clear on that, and then your legs then come into play to then carry you towards that.

Martin: Yes. It's the difference between in this case, when you're talking about goals, your the vision, the eyes, that's like the thought of a goal, but thought alone is never going to get you anywhere. The legs is what carries you forward, that's the action. When you got thought and action working together, that's when you start going places.

Sandra: That's really good. If you've obviously been exploring your stance to look at as far as the stability, mobility, and power generation along the way, you then take those same ideas into life and think as you're moving through, could you be a bit more flexible here? Could you flow more here? Could you change direction with these if you needed to?

Martin: Or, do you just need to power ahead?

Sandra: Or, just power through and take control of that point in your life. I think that's probably enough today. I don't know how we've gone on the clock today.

Martin: Oh, we haven't done too badly. I guess that's it for this time.

Sandra: Thanks everybody.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website karate4life.com

Martin: Share it with your friends via social media and don't forget to tag us #karate4lifepodcast.

And if you've got a topic that you’d like us to cover in future episodes or questions about karate or life...

Sandra: Please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Coming up in the next episode we'll take a deeper look at the third element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki - grit and determination.

In the episode we continue going deeper into ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki as we take a deeper look into the first element the eyes.

The eyes are the most important of all the basics and the way we use them will effect everything else that follows.

Martin: Hey everyone, this is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome back to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Today we want to dig a bit deeper into the basics of karate and life, taker a closer look at the first element of ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki -the eyes.

Martin: We've noticed that everyone faces challenges in life, some big some small. But not everyone has a way to navigate these problems.

Sandra: It’s not always easy, but we’ve found that we always keep coming back to what we’ve learned from our years in the dojo.

Martin: And that’s what this podcast is all about...

Sandra: Helping us all find the solutions to life’s problems. Or even better yet, to remove the problems before they arise.

Martin: This is Martin & Sandra Phillips and welcome to the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: Martin, are you ready to do this today?

Martin: I think so. I think so. We've been spending a little bit of time collecting our thoughts and doing a bit of a brain dump. Every time we look at this we seem to find new angles and new ways to approach things and go a little bit deeper, so we'll see how we go pulling it together.

Sandra: Yes, and I guess for those who have been doing martial arts for a long time, and especially those who are way above our time in the Dojo. For myself personally, I know for you too, every time we discuss Ichi Gan with students of various ages, levels, it always seems to have a similar message, yet also very different. Different angles of how we actually attack those-

Martin: Depending on the audience.

Sandra: -conversations. Yes. Again, this could really blow out, really....

Martin: Yes, it could go so many different directions, maybe a list to help focus, we'll get back to that. The text from Soke's teaching manual, I might let you read there if that's okay.

Sandra: Sure thing. Okay, so... "Ichi Gan, it is said that the spirit of a person is shown most through the eyes. In Budō, Gan represents the power of insight into the movement of the opponent's body, spirit, etc.

Martin: Oh, wow. This is really looking at it from a technical point of view, and I guess to hear the saying, "The eyes are the window to the soul," as looking, not just at their physical body, but their emotional state and their mental state, and looking at how we do that. Perhaps, we'll get onto that in a little bit. Maybe we'll get back and look at it.

Sandra: Yes, let's go really simple.

Martin: We'll go really simple.

Sandra: Really simple, and just think, okay, if we just go back to ourselves as individuals, so we look at as far as how we use the eyes for ourselves.

Martin: As an individual, when I think eye focus, I think, "Where are my eyes fixed? Am I looking down? Am I looking up? Am I focused on something? Am I just in a bit of a daze?" Just by aligning the eyes, looking forwards, that in turn, helps to align the posture and creates a position of personal power. When the head comes down, when the eyes come down, the head comes down, the posture collapses. When you hold that for any extended period of time, you start to feel a little bit depressed.

Sandra: Yes, low energy, not much flowing through you.

Martin: Then, just by opening that up, opening it up, fixing the eyes off into the distance, looking forwards rather than backwards, it allows you to create that feeling of strength within yourself.

Sandra: Yes. Would you also say that with that feeling, it tends to also help correct the posture?

Martin: Oh, absolutely.

Sandra: And create greater stability and balance...?

Martin: Yes, one feeds into the other. The eyes feed into the posture, the posture feeds into the eyes and that feeling of strength or power come from that.

Sandra: Yes, and I guess you could also look at it in terms of the way you look at people. You could look at people with love and kindness or you could look at people with hate and jealousy and just in the way you'd look at people, it's amazing how that can have an instant effect on your overall psychology as well.

Martin: Absolutely. When we see this, I'll take this back to the dojo for a second, when you look at a partner, some people just look really scary.

Sandra: Yes, you're one of those people.

Martin: I'm one of those people. [chuckles]

Sandra: [chuckles]

Martin: It's not because they're doing anything, they can just be standing there and they just look scary. Some people look intimidating. Some people look like they're ready to be eaten alive. I remember, there's a few teachers I've trained with in Japan, I'm pretty tall, compared to most Japanese people, I remember training with a few people, and physically, they're not that big, but you look at them, and they just look like they're 10 feet tall because they've just got this presence about them, through the way that they use their eyes and the way they hold themselves, that just makes them look larger than life.

Sandra: Wow, that commanding presence,

Martin: That commanding presence, getting back to the referee rulebook.

Sandra: Yes, I always come back to the commanding presence, it's stuck with me, not just as a referee, but I've taken that a whole lot-- a lot of thought had gone into that in my own training as well, and as a parent, believe it or not, always thinking of those sorts of things. All right, let's move on now, let's extend outside of ourselves, and let's move into our surrounding environment.

Martin: Using your eyes in this way, I guess, is looking at what's going on around you. If we look at it from a self-defense scenario being aware of what's around you is the first rule of self-defense, is, be aware of what's there and don't be where the trouble is. Just that awareness of looking at, where are the potential threats? Let's say, you're walking into a nightclub and you see there's some people over on the side, there's a bit of an argument erupting, do you walk towards it, or do you walk around the other way and stay away from it? Just being aware of the space around you is the first step.

Also being aware of opportunities in that same scenario. You've walked into this space and there's a disturbance erupting over there on the side, and you're looking for where are the possible escape routes, so you're not walking into the trouble. If the trouble erupts further and it becomes bigger than it needs to be, then you've got a way to get out, not be there.

Sandra:: No, it's fantastic. It just brought back a memory for me when I was a young mum. I remember being in a park all alone with our two kids and you were at work and I was there on my own. I remember this man coming towards me and it just did not feel right. He was probably about at least maybe 100 meters away but I just instantly felt, oh, this is not good feeling.

Martin: You just felt uneasy about him?

Sandra: It felt really uneasy about this man coming and he was walking straight at me. I had two young kids. I think Sam would have probably been around, oh, gee, I don't know, three or so and so they were still really young and happy and doing their thing, obviously. Minding their own business but this man's looking at me. He started walking quite slow and he got faster and faster. Then a car pulled up. A young family coming into the park as well, and he straightaway just veered off and he ran the other way.

It was a most bizarre experience. I thought, wow, what's going to happen here? It was only because my environment changed that that person's actions were changing as well, so what may have happened? I don't know but I was certainly very aware of him coming into that space from such a distance. It was a very unusual feeling about this person. You can sense it. If you have yourself positioned and you know yourself. If you have yourself positioned with your eyes and your posture, and you find that you generally get a sense of your environment changing, and the energy will change in people around you, and you can sense that.

Martin: I guess that's the other thing. As we move towards dealing with an opponent, which is probably the next step, going from the surroundings to dealing with an opponent, or someone that's connected, then you start to look towards their eyes. That's like the old saying, the eyes are the window to the soul. It gives you the insight of someone's intent.

Sandra: Definitely. Okay, so we've got, know yourself. We want to know our environments and let's go now into knowing your opponent.

Martin: As I said that, when you connect or engage with an opponent, that first starts with how you connect with your eyes when we practice in the dojo and practice partner applications of Bunkai or Kumite, always, the first thing to do is start with the eyes. Start with how are you're connecting because that becomes a judge of one, their intent, are they a threat or are you in control?

Sandra: You are always observing, you're getting a sense of what's going on and I guess you're detecting what's going on?

Martin: Yes, so you're looking at what is the next step going to be? Do you need to adjust your distance? Do you need to engage and take control, and take command of that situation, or do you just need to let it flow by? We're looking at the eyes, judge that intent first, and then it moves on to those, looking for those little things like your distance. Is the opponent at a distance where they can do any damage to you, or are they still moving towards that distance?

As they come in closer and closer and closer into that zone of engagement, then you become even more and more heightened and aware of what's going on. I guess this is something I think you do exceptionally well in Kumite. Last time you competed at the Soke Cup, your entire strategy was distance. Perhaps, you could talk about what you experienced with that briefly.

Sandra: Oh, gee, yes. Throw me on the spot just like that. I wasn't expecting that. It's actually interesting. Distance was an important part, distance and timing. I did go back to those because I knew that a lot of young ladies coming through, and I tell you the speed on those girls, it's incredible. I didn't feel, at that time, that I could be an attacker as I would love to do and I was younger. I didn't feel I had that speed in my body to do it in the way where I could disguise any telegraphs in my movement to enter. I did feel as though there was a good chance on my entry they were going to take me. Because of that, I thought, "Let's be really simple. Let's let them walk into the problem and I'll be more patient." I was never a patient fighter when I was growing up. I wanted to just go and take control and just get in there and attack. It wasn't such a wise decision.

Martin: You were a bit of a feisty one, weren't you?

Sandra: Very feisty, I believe. I don't think I was, really but--

Martin: [chuckles] Being on the receiving end in training a few times. Yes, you were.

Sandra: Yes. I think in time you change, and you grow, and you mature. You see other people's perspectives. You see other people's teachings. I think you have to grow, but I guess distance and timing were my key elements. The underlying of that though, my personal goal was, I wanted to bring in my absolute best. I wanted to know that within myself I could control everything about me, my mind, my body, my emotional state. I did not want to let any of those parts of me, be weak.

Martin: This all comes back to the eyes, doesn't it?

Sandra: It all came back to the eyes, the way I use my eyes at that point in time, yes. It's amazing how the intent can be so deep. It goes so deep that it turns into this state of-- the feeling is like you're feeling invincible, but you feel so much love at the same time. You never want to hurt anybody. There's such great care and love, but there's this invincible feeling that takes over your body in that state. I can't explain it much more than that.

Martin: Again, that way you use your eyes, obviously that's the perception of what's going on. The perception of space, perception of your opponent looking at their threat. Then, there's also that what you're projecting out from yourself, how you're using your eyes in that way. That reminds me of a great story about Soke. I remember our former teacher, Brian Hayes Sensei he once asked Soke, "If you ever had to defend yourself, what would you do? How would you do that?" I think he had the perfect answer. He said, "I would hope that my Kamae would be enough. The hope that my presence and the way that I presented myself would be enough so the fight would not happen. Of course, if the fight happened, then I'd do this, this, this, and this, but the first line of defense is how I use my eyes."

Sandra: Wow.

Martin: That's incredibly powerful, isn't it?

Sandra: Extraordinary. That's a great way, I guess, to wrap up that part, I think maybe just really briefly, let's go and to look at if we were to take these ideas and then how to apply it into our everyday life now, I guess, because we've looked at ourself, the surroundings with other people in this situation, opponents, if we go and put this into everyday life, what would that look like in your mind?

Martin: Well, again, it's an extension of those same three elements. You're looking at how you're holding yourself, how you're presenting yourself, how you're taking in the world around you. That's moving into the awareness, looking at possible opportunities that might be coming up, and also possible struggles or threats or challenges that come up as well. That's being aware of that. How you use your eyes is what directs everything that you do.

Sandra: I could say this for myself personally, but I'm not sure about yourself. I find the more I practice because I think you've got to practice these things, not just think about, you need actually action and deliberately practice.

Martin: It's a conscious effort.

Sandra: Yes. I'll actually practice using my eyes in everyday life, when I'm driving or when I'm speaking with people, whatever it might be in all different situations.

Martin: It can be just those little things like if you're feeling just a little bit low energy just to lift your eyes, raise your posture, and straighten up.

Sandra: Yes, very much so. I guess what I was probably trying to get to is that I find that when I align my spine, I guess, by using my eyes, I generally feel as though I can live from a more, I guess, peaceful state, a more calm state, and a lot less overwhelm. Although challenges may arise still and the same kind of ones that I've had 20 years ago, I don't respond the same way anymore to those challenges, there's this maturity and there's this presence which says I can do this in a more peaceful way now. I don't need to go through the struggle or get all emotional about things. I can just go, "You know what? Cut to the chase, let's just move forward in this peaceful calm way." Would you have that same kind of thing?

Martin: Absolutely. I think that's definitely an approach, it creates a mental space where you can just stay level-headed. That's the thing that we strive towards heijoshin that calm heart. Where you're operating in that band where you're not excited by things, not too excited, or you're not depressed by things, but operating in that calm state in the middle where things just are.

Sandra: Yes. Me being my curious self, I love getting excited, but I love putting myself back into that state. If I need to be more clear and to have clarity in my projects, I'll always bring myself to that even place-

Martin: That even keel.

Sandra: -so I can truly take it all in and deliver a much better experience for those who I'm trying to work with.

Martin: We've done well. We normally try to keep these a little bit shorter than this, but I knew it was going to blow out. I think we probably should start to think about the next episode hey? Next episode, moving into... stance.

Martin: Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Karate 4 Life Podcast.

Sandra: If you found this episode useful, please comment on our website karate4life.com

Martin: Share it with your friends via social media and don't forget to tag us #karate4lifepodcast.

And if you've got a topic that you’d like us to cover in future episodes or questions about karate or life...

Sandra: Please send us a message, we'd be more than happy to share our thoughts.

Martin: Thanks again for joining us and stay tuned for the next episode about ichi gan, ni soku, san tan, shi riki as we continue to go more deeply into the second element the stance.