Lawyers Who Learn

After 18 years in corporate finance law, Heather Moulder had built exactly what success was supposed to look like — partner at Greenberg Traurig, thriving book of business, career on track. Then a breast cancer diagnosis at 38 forced her to stop and ask a question most high-achieving lawyers never let themselves ask: Is this actually the life I want?

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Heather to unpack a journey that started long before the diagnosis — the burnout four years into her career, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing, and the feeling of succeeding at something that was slowly draining her.

Her return to the firm after treatment looked like a comeback. It was actually the beginning of something else. She spent years quietly reevaluating her values, training as a coach, and building a practice on the side before finally making the leap. She initially avoided working with lawyers — then found herself almost exclusively coaching them. Today, she works with attorneys on both mindset and business development, grounded in the belief that you simply cannot separate the two.

Heather's story is a powerful reminder that burnout isn't weakness — it's often the clearest signal pointing toward the work you were always meant to do.

Jennifer Gillman built her recruiting career by doing something most recruiters avoid: telling lawyers not to leave. When partners complained about being underpaid, she dug into the numbers—sometimes discovering they could dramatically increase compensation elsewhere, and other times realizing they were already better off staying put. Same frustration. Completely different reality. That instinct to prioritize long-term happiness over short-term commission checks eventually reshaped her entire business.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Jennifer, founder of Gillman Strategic Group and author of The Happy Rainmaker, to explore her evolution from management-side employment attorney to trusted advisor for high-performing rainmakers. After 12 years in practice—and barely seeing her young child awake during the week—Jennifer made a bold pivot into recruiting. What started as a search for flexibility became a mission: helping lawyers avoid moves that create more stress, more friction, and less control.

Now working with partners who can choose almost any firm, Jennifer focuses on one question: will this move actually improve your life? Through her Six Pillars framework, she challenges the assumption that more revenue equals more fulfillment. Instead, she argues that the happiest rainmakers build business intentionally, set boundaries confidently, and design careers that are both profitable and sustainable.

Lucie Allen's journey through legal education started with an accidental entry into IP protection during the dot-com boom and evolved into a leading growth strategy at one of the industry's most recognizable names. As Chief Growth Officer at BARBRI, she's helping transform a company known primarily for bar prep into something much bigger, a lifelong legal learning platform where bar prep no longer represents the majority of revenue.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how BARBRI is building what Lucie calls a "lifelong legal learning continuum" through strategic acquisitions like West Academic, Quimbee, Skillburst, and Stratford. The conversation reveals how the company is reimagining legal education from LSAT preparation through late-career professional development, operating in both mandatory CLE markets in the US and the UK's professional development landscape where continuing education isn't required.

Lucie shares insights on navigating the AI revolution in education, including BARBRI's decision to hire its first Head of AI, a role dedicated largely to external innovation and improving how clients experience their products. She discusses the challenge of operating in "Horizon Two"—that experimental space between maintaining daily operations and pursuing an uncertain but necessary future. With refreshing honesty, she talks about the unique pressures women face in professional growth, from proving yourself in male-dominated sales environments to managing career ambition alongside motherhood, and even navigating menopause.

The episode touches on everything from early sales training with video feedback to cold plunging in a garden tub, from Microsoft AI partnerships to Simon Sinek's infinite game philosophy. Lucie offers a candid look at the opportunities, challenges, and strategic thinking required to stay relevant when technology is reshaping everything.

Sarah Dray took a sick day from her Tel Aviv law firm to complete a freelance translation project, not because she was ill, but because that single job would pay more than her entire week's salary as a junior attorney. That pivotal moment crystallized a truth she'd been avoiding: the practical career path she'd followed since age 18 was leading somewhere she no longer wanted to go. In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Sarah's journey from studying law in Hebrew, to building a thriving translation business that now handles high-stakes legal and financial documents for publicly traded companies. After immigrating to Israel for what was supposed to be a gap year, Sarah navigated law school while ultra-Orthodox and married at 19, juggling cultural expectations with an independent streak inherited from her Moroccan immigrant parents. Sarah's entrepreneurial evolution didn't stop with translations. During COVID, she co-founded a seven-figure e-commerce business selling VR headsets on Amazon, a venture born from scrolling TikTok while trapped at home. Her translation business has weathered AI disruption by pivoting from routine litigation work to complex financial documents that still require human expertise and formatting precision. Now, as she considers her next chapter, Sarah's contemplating a new mission: helping women entrepreneurs make the leap from zero to one, drawing from her own unconventional path of building multiple businesses while navigating motherhood during wartime in Israel.

Brendan Horgan learned a counterintuitive lesson as a young Navy judge advocate: the most effective arguments aren't delivered with fire and brimstone. Standing before decorated military officers as a third-year JAG, he discovered that matter-of-fact credibility beats theatrical passion every time, a principle that now guides his employment law practice at Hofheimer in Richmond, Virginia.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores Brendan's evolution from University of Connecticut Law graduate who "just jumped in" to active duty JAG service, through five years prosecuting and defending courts martial, to building a thriving private practice while serving as a Navy Reserve judge advocate. After graduating in 2012 into a challenging legal market, Brendan took a recruiter's pitch and found himself in Newport, Rhode Island, preparing for a career he'd never considered—one that would give him courtroom experience most attorneys never achieve.

Brendan's litigation philosophy rests on two principles: assume mistakes before malice, and find the hidden leverage point in every case that goes beyond the legal arguments. By giving people the benefit of the doubt and avoiding aggressive posturing from the start, he achieves faster settlements in employment disputes. His JAG experience,prosecuting service members with clean records while rotating between prosecutor, defense counsel, and advisor, taught him a crucial lesson: clients' problems are his to solve, not to carry on his shoulders.

Beyond the courtroom, Brendan candidly discusses the "starfish method" of balancing work, family, and public service while coaching his kids' sports teams and maintaining his reserve commitment. His message: even with three children and a demanding practice, there's always room to serve—you just have to intentionally choose which areas get your focus at any given time.

Dan Warburton helps law firm owners increase profits by doing something counterintuitive: billing less while their teams bill more. His path here wasn't linear. After struggling to fit in throughout his youth, Dan spent years bouncing between ventures—earning a design degree, DJing across Europe, then literally knocking on 4,000 doors as "Super Dan the Handyman." When he scaled too fast with Team Super, a nine-person crew, the business collapsed under £100,000 in tax debt after his team couldn't deliver the work they'd promised

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how that failure became Dan's breakthrough. He pivoted to a 24-hour drainage business he could run from ski lifts across Europe, which led curious entrepreneurs to ask how he'd achieved that freedom. The answer lay in eight years of leadership training at Landmark Education. There, Dan traced his struggles back to a childhood moment when he was reprimanded for biting his brother's ear. He'd invented a story that he wasn't good enough, and recognizing this as invention rather than truth changed everything.

Dan's framework centers on something law schools never teach: listening. Through weekly one-on-ones, he guides attorneys to build teams where people feel genuinely valued rather than driven. His clients learn to replace "how will I fit this in?" with "who can do this?"—a shift that helped one firm achieve a 392% revenue increase. Now Dan's pursuing the acquisition of a 65-person London law firm to implement everything he's taught, with plans to build a portfolio of practices. His journey proves that escaping the expert trap starts with confronting the stories you've been telling yourself since childhood.

Joe Green has spent the last several years building one of the most ambitious AI and innovation programs in BigLaw — not by chasing the hottest tools, but by asking harder questions about how law firms actually create value and what has to change for that to evolve. He knows the real transformation won't come from product launches or conference buzz. It'll happen when firms feel actual business pressure: fewer billable hours because work takes less time, or clients demanding new ways to buy legal services.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores both Joe's innovation work at Gunderson Dettmer and the winding path that got him there. After seven years as a transactional associate — first at Simpson Thacher and then at Gunderson Dettmer — Joe was a skilled deal lawyer who struggled to feel genuinely energized by the work. The demands of managing complex, fast-moving transactions occupied every corner of his mental bandwidth, leaving little room to envision what else he might want to do. Getting to a place where he could think clearly about what came next took years of deliberate effort.

Writing changed everything. Joe discovered that co-authoring law review articles — something most practicing BigLaw lawyers never do — opened unexpected doors, eventually leading him to Practical Law at Thomson Reuters and then back to Gunderson in a completely reimagined role. Now he teaches startup/VC law at Penn Law, reads neuroscience books on his train commute, and thinks deeply about how AI will reshape legal training. His advice works for both innovation and careers: experiment with what interests you, stay ready to pivot, and trust that meaningful change rarely follows a straight line.

Lauren Hakala knew her path would be different the moment she heard a colleague gush about an incoming deal. They were having wine after work, and while the woman talked excitedly about her next deal, Lauren realized something crucial: she'd never felt that way about her own work, so it was time to find a different path.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Lauren transformed six years of corporate law experience at Cleary Gottlieb into a career helping law firm leaders manage their talent programs. As Senior Director of Global Learning at Reed Smith, she leads a 15-person team supporting lawyers across 30+ offices worldwide, designing programs on legal skills, business development, financial acumen, and leadership skills. Her journey included a pivotal stop at Practical Law during its US launch, where she worked alongside future legal innovators before Paul, Weiss took a chance on her, hiring her to make a pivot into professional development for its global transactional groups.

Lauren introduces her "near pizza" concept: the difference between waiting in line with friends for the perfect slice versus pressing a button for delivery. Both get you pizza, but only one creates a meaningful experience. As GenAI makes legal work more efficient, she challenges the profession to preserve the friction that gives learning meaning—the stories, emotions, and human connections that build trust and that no algorithm can replace. Her approach uses technology to handle the basics so people can focus on what truly matters.

Beyond her current role, Lauren spent over two years managing week-long Harvard Law Executive Training programs at her previous firm, learning strategy and financial literacy alongside lawyers. She's also accidentally met every New York City mayor since Giuliani, including her Park Slope neighbor Bill de Blasio.

Jason Levin wrote an entire book challenging a simple truth: we say "keep in touch" but really mean goodbye, so what if lawyers actually executed on those three words? For 15 years, he's trained new partners and practice groups on business development rooted in social science: the strength of weak ties, six degrees of separation, and the power of dormant connections. His message is simple but transformative—your casual relationships matter more than you think, and most attorneys ignore them completely.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Jason built his career teaching the one skill law schools never cover. His path started as a high school file clerk at a New Jersey law firm, because he was the babysitter for one of the firm’s partners.  She once told him, “If you can get my kids to bed on time, you can certainly handle our practice group’s files.” It was that early experience which solidified his interest in building relationships. Jason went on to an MBA at Georgetown University, spent five years in France following a Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship, led sales teams at Home - Vault selling to law firms, and eventually launched his own practice of training business development to attorneys, accountants, and executive search firms.

The conversation reveals an unexpected vulnerability when Jason shares his ADHD diagnosis from three years ago. The kid who couldn't understand social cues in elementary school, who would blurt out comments five minutes too late, systematically taught himself active listening and relationship skills through social science research. By senior year of high school, he was voted most talkative. His philosophy of "let them say no" rejects the double rejection we create in our minds, showing how intentionality transforms networking from obligation into authentic connection.

For years working in Big Law business development at firms like Pillsbury, Sherman & Sterling (now A&O Shearman), and McDermott Will & Emery, Megan Senese thought attorneys had it all figured out. Then she left to co-found Stage, and lawyers started opening up about their real challenges: the same struggles with impossible demands and professional uncertainty she'd experienced herself. That realization didn't just change her perspective; it became the foundation for an entirely new approach to helping legal professionals grow their practices.

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman explores how Megan built a business around what Big Law couldn't provide: dedicated, personalized support for individual attorneys. Stage offers fractional marketing and business development tailored to what actually works for each person, whether that's leaning into conferences for an energy regulatory lawyer or creating content strategies for someone who thrives behind the scenes rather than at networking events.

Megan shares actionable frameworks that work. She applies Dr. Becky Kennedy's parenting concept of "the most generous interpretation" to transform how attorneys handle unanswered emails and perceived rejection. She draws on Dan Pink's insight that moving people beats selling them every time. Her cold outreach to the CMO of LinkedIn got an immediate yes. Her pitch to David landed this conversation. The approach is straightforward: pause long enough to understand what someone actually needs, then show them why connecting serves their interests.

The conversation reveals Megan's own transformation from someone who would've never imagined entrepreneurship to co-founder of a thriving firm. When her partner put "IDEA - don't be nervous" on her Friday calendar more than three years ago, it launched a journey of redefining success on their own terms, proving that sustainable growth comes from doing work you genuinely love with people you genuinely want to help.