Leadership Limbo

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John sit down with Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin to explore one of leadership’s most avoided but essential responsibilities: accountability. Drawing from her book Hope Is Not a Strategy, Brandi makes a compelling case that strong intentions and motivational language are not enough to produce consistent, high-quality results.

Hope matters. It is human and necessary. But as Brandi explains, hope without systems creates uneven performance, pockets of excellence, and persistent gaps. Leaders often assume shared standards without clearly defining them. The result is inconsistency—and inconsistency erodes trust.

Dr. Chin challenges leaders to move from aspiration to operational clarity. Values like excellence, respect, and equity only shape culture when they are translated into observable behaviors and reinforced consistently. When expectations are vague, accountability feels personal or punitive. When expectations are clear and upheld, accountability becomes cultural and developmental.

The conversation also addresses resistance. Pushback against accountability is rarely about defiance; it is often rooted in fear—fear of failure, exposure, or loss of autonomy. Effective leaders respond not with punishment, but with consistency, coaching, and steady reinforcement of shared standards.

This episode serves as both a conversation and an invitation. If you are serious about improving quality, building trust, and strengthening consistency in your organization, Dr. Chin’s work offers a practical roadmap. You can learn more about her book, consulting, and leadership resources at brandichin.com.

00:00 – Introducing Dr. Brandi Chin and the Accountability Conversation

06:00 – Hope vs. Systems

14:30 – Translating Values into Action

26:00 – Follow-Through and Consistency

37:00 – Resistance and Fear

45:00 – Accountability as the Path to Quality

Where are you relying on hope instead of clarity? Identify one expectation that needs stronger definition and follow-through this week. If this conversation resonated, explore Dr. Brandi Nicole Chin’s work at brandichin.com and consider how her framework could strengthen accountability in your organization.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John continue their series on leadership presence by shifting from definition to diagnosis. After exploring what presence is, they now examine what disrupts it. Drawing from systems theory, personal leadership stories, and practical workplace examples, they unpack the subtle forces that pull leaders out of connection and into reactivity.

The core insight is simple: presence is not something you add on. It emerges when you remove what is getting in the way. Josh reintroduces the concept of de-envelopment—a term Andrew Robinson brought into conversation—challenging leaders to strip away reactive habits rather than stack new techniques. When anxiety rises in meetings, conflict, or uncertainty, leaders default into predictable postures. Some over-function, over-explain, and hustle for affirmation. Others defer too quickly, distance themselves from decisions, or avoid discomfort. Still others push agendas forcefully, mistaking control for confidence.

Throughout the episode, these patterns are connected to real leadership moments: rescuing instead of empowering, over-talking to secure credibility, withdrawing under pressure, or bulldozing conversations in the name of decisiveness. Each response is understandable, but each reduces presence and erodes trust.

The conversation also names practical barriers such as distraction, physical absence, tone, lack of preparation, and disorganization. Presence is both internal and external. It requires emotional regulation and self-awareness, but also visible engagement and structured leadership behavior.

The episode closes with practical strategies for cultivating presence in daily leadership: speaking last, limiting airtime, repairing strained relationships early, structuring meetings around learning, and embracing silence. Presence, they remind listeners, is not mystical. It is disciplined, relational, and built through consistent practice.

Presence grows when leaders remove anxiety-driven reactions rather than adding performance techniques.

Over-functioning and under-functioning are two common but opposite barriers to presence.

Agenda-driven behavior often signals insecurity more than confidence.

Distraction, tone, and lack of preparation communicate disengagement quickly.

Presence requires emotional regulation and visible leadership discipline.

This week, identify your default anxiety response. Do you over-explain, defer too quickly, push harder, or withdraw? Choose one strategy from this episode to counter it. Speak last in your next meeting. Limit your airtime. Repair a strained relationship early. Shift a goal from execution to learning. Presence grows when you intentionally remove what blocks it.

00:00 – Recap: What Is Presence?

05:30 – Reintroducing De-Envelopment

12:00 – Over-Functioning and Hustling for Worth

19:30 – Distancing and Avoiding Discomfort

27:00 – Agenda-Driven Leadership

34:30 – Practical Strategies to Strengthen Presence

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Growing Yourself Up by Jenny Brown

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore one of the most essential yet misunderstood leadership capacities: presence. Moving beyond the idea of executive polish or charisma, they reframe presence as the ability to create safety, clarity, and forward movement simply by how a leader shows up with others.

The conversation builds on recent discussions about influence, self-preservation, and development, grounding the idea of presence in lived experience rather than theory. Josh introduces a powerful reflection from poet and philosopher David Whyte, connecting presence to gravity and mass—the idea that true presence slows time, opens possibility, and invites others toward deeper engagement rather than resistance.

John and Josh unpack how presence shows up in everyday leadership moments: listening without rushing to respond, resisting the urge to fix or dominate, and creating space for others to step forward at their own pace. Through a personal story about parenting and coaching, John illustrates how walls of self-preservation—fear, ego, and the need to prove something—can block presence, and how removing those walls creates growth and confidence.

The episode also clarifies what presence is not. It is not positional authority, charisma without care, physical proximity without intention, or oversharing personal struggle in ways that burden others. Presence is not paralysis or endless collaboration, nor is it speed for the sake of productivity. Instead, presence is grounded, curious, and disciplined. It allows leaders to listen deeply, make decisions confidently, and move teams forward together.

The conversation closes by emphasizing that presence is not a switch you flip, but a continual internal practice. In a culture that rewards constant motion and urgency, choosing presence is countercultural work. Leaders who cultivate it slow time for others, reduce unnecessary friction, and create the conditions for trust, development, and meaningful progress.

00:00 – Welcome and Framing the Conversation

03:15 – Influence, Self-Preservation, and a Personal Leadership Story

09:45 – Defining Presence and Why It Changes Everything

13:30 – Presence, Time, and the Work of Deep Listening

18:45 – What Presence Is Not

32:00 – Presence in Meetings, Decisions, and Daily Leadership

44:00 – Reflection and Homework

This week, identify one place where your presence matters most right now. It may be a key priority that needs focused attention, or a person who needs deeper listening and understanding. Choose one and be deliberate. Slow yourself down. Ask better questions. Notice whether time feels different—whether tension eases, clarity increases, or progress accelerates. That shift is your signal that presence is taking root.

David Whyte, Time and Consolations

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark engage with Andrew Robinson, a leader in organizational development, to explore the limitations of traditional management practices and the need for a shift towards a development mindset. Andrew discusses his new venture, Oxygen, which aims to create sustainable leadership development systems that empower individuals and organizations to thrive. The conversation delves into the etymology of management, the impact of AI on leadership, and practical steps leaders can take to foster growth and presence within their teams.

Read more about Andrew's work at www.andrewfrobinson.com and read his work at https://andrewfrobinson.substack.com/ and be sure to follow his exciting new venture, Oxygen!

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo

leadership, management, development, organizational growth, self-awareness, presence, human potential, leadership mindset, Oxygen, Andrew Robinson

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, hosts John Clark and Josh Hugo explore the complexities of influence and relationships in leadership. They discuss the importance of trust, the distinction between kindness and niceness, and the role of feedback in fostering healthy professional relationships. The conversation delves into the challenges of self-preservation and cynicism, emphasizing the need for managers to lower their own walls of self-preservation to effectively influence their teams. Practical applications and homework are provided to help listeners reflect on their own leadership styles and improve their influence.

You can find an image of The Influence Model here: https://share.google/rWqf9vR40eVEZFXJX) 

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Limbo

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John turn their focus to one of the most critical and misunderstood leadership capabilities for middle managers: influence. Building on the previous conversation about the pressures and possibilities of middle management, they explore why influence—not authority, control, or coercion—is the currency that allows leaders to move people, ideas, and organizations forward in today’s fast-moving workplace.

The conversation begins by distinguishing influence from power. Josh and John argue that modern organizations can no longer rely on positional authority or top-down control to drive results. As work becomes faster, flatter, and more relational, managers must learn how to influence through trust, credibility, and care. Influence, they emphasize, is inseparable from development. Leaders who approach management as a way to grow people, rather than extract output, are far more likely to earn followership and sustain performance.

The episode introduces a set of nine common influence styles, not as a hierarchy of good and bad behaviors, but as tools that can be used wisely or poorly depending on motive, context, and overuse. From data-driven rational appeals to relational, values-based, and personal appeals, Josh and John unpack how each style works, where it can be effective, and how it can break down when leaders rely on it too heavily or without self-awareness.

Throughout the discussion, they return to a central theme: posture matters. Influence that is rooted in control, avoidance, or self-protection is often sensed, even if it sounds supportive on the surface. By contrast, influence grounded in genuine care for another person’s growth creates trust, accountability, and learning. The episode challenges managers to examine not just how they influence, but why.

The conversation closes with a reframing of influence as an ongoing practice rather than a momentary tactic. Effective influence begins long before a decision is announced. It is built through curiosity, listening, understanding people’s motivations, and asking better questions. When leaders invest in knowing their people and their organization deeply, influence becomes more natural, adaptive, and human.

Take time this week to reflect on your default influence style. Consider which approaches you rely on most and where that reliance may be limiting your effectiveness. Identify one influence style you tend to underuse and experiment with it intentionally in an upcoming conversation. Pay attention not just to outcomes, but to how people respond and what it reveals about trust and connection.

In the Season Two premiere of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John return to the core reason this podcast exists: the often overlooked and overburdened role of the middle manager. Instead of starting the year with goals or resolutions, they examine a more urgent question facing organizations today—why middle management has become a major driver of disengagement, burnout, and organizational underperformance.

The conversation centers on a striking reality. While middle managers have the greatest influence on employee engagement, only a small percentage of them report being engaged themselves. This disconnect points to a systemic issue rather than individual failure. Managers are expected to execute strategy without shaping it, lead people without sufficient support, and drive engagement while carrying increasing pressure from all sides.

Josh and John challenge how organizations typically respond to engagement problems. Too often, companies bypass managers by adding new initiatives, surveys, or programs instead of investing in manager development. This approach compounds the problem by increasing workload and stress without strengthening leadership capacity.

They also explore why traditional management training falls short. Many programs focus on process and compliance while neglecting the identity shift required to move from individual contributor to people developer. Leadership, they argue, is less about passing along directives and more about cultivating trust, clarity, and growth.

The episode closes with a call for both personal responsibility and organizational reflection. Healthy workplaces are built when managers are developed, supported, and trusted to do the relational work leadership requires. This conversation sets the foundation for Season Two, which will move from diagnosing the problem to offering practical solutions.

Before setting new goals this year, pause and assess whether you—or the managers you support—are truly equipped for the role being asked of you. Reflect on clarity of expectations, access to development, and whether people leadership is being treated as a core responsibility or an afterthought. Start there before adding new initiatives.

In the last of our Season 1 Redux - the Best of 2025 - we are re-sharing an episode all about a Development System: The Development Square. 

We know that organizations who value development approach it systematically. It cannot be an idea, concept or belief by itself. It requires a paradigm and framework.

If you are going into 2026 with goals for greater success in people development, this is a must-listen.

Starting the week of January 12th, we'll be sharing out new episodes from Season 2!

Original Episode Description Below:

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive deeper into their ongoing series on developing others, introducing a practical and powerful framework known as the Development Square from The Voice-Driven Leader by Jeremie Kubicek and Steve Cockram.

Building on last week’s conversation about mindset (“To Me” vs. “By Me”), this episode explores how leaders can translate self-awareness into actionable systems for developing people. The duo walk through the four stages of development—Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, and Multiplication—and unpack how each represents a distinct phase of learning and growth.

Josh explains how the model builds on Maslow’s hierarchy of competence (from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence) and helps leaders identify where each team member is on their learning journey. Together, they emphasize that development is not an event—it’s a continual process of awareness, feedback, and adaptation.

They also highlight the emotional side of development: the “pit of despair” when confidence collapses, and the “green room” where skill mastery can become comfort or complacency. Through humor, stories, and practical examples—from new teachers to medical dramas—Josh and John make the case that great leaders must not only recognize these stages but actively guide others through them.

Development isn’t management—and it isn’t an event.

Everyone learns differently.

The Four Stages of Development:

Foundation (Unconscious Incompetence): “I do, you watch.” Excitement is high, competence is low.

Immersion (Conscious Incompetence): “I do, you help.” Mistakes rise, confidence dips—learning begins.

Empowerment (Conscious Competence): “You do, I help.” Skill is growing, autonomy increases.

Multiplication (Unconscious Competence): “You do, I watch.” Mastery emerges—and it’s time to develop others.

Beware the “pit of despair.”

Don’t get stuck in the “green room.”

Your mindset still drives your method.

Think about one person you’re developing right now—a colleague, direct report, or team member.

Identify which stage of development they’re currently in: Foundation, Immersion, Empowerment, or Multiplication.

Ask yourself: What do they need from me at this stage?

More modeling and demonstration?

Shoulder-to-shoulder feedback?

Space to practice with support?

Stretch opportunities to mentor others?

Bonus reflection: Where are you in your own development journey—and what kind of support would help you grow next?

The Voice-Driven Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram

The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman

Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty)

Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, & Kaley Warner Klemp

The Pit (TV Series) — referenced as an analogy for teaching and skill progression

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 9 - Communication: Are You Trying to Be Interested or Interesting?

As we spend time with family and friends during this holiday season, ask yourself, am I taking part in conversations in which I'm trying to be interesting or interested in others?

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity.

Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them.

Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions.

Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives.

Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention.

Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will.

“Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?”

“Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.”

“You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.”

“Communication equals transmission plus receiving.”

Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down.

Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.).

Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove?

Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication.

Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

To wrap up 2025, we're re-posting a few of our favorite episodes from this past year. This week's redux is Episode 3 - The "Rebrand" Episode when we moved from our earlier title (that shall go unnamed) to the current title, Leadership Limbo!

If you haven't listened to this episode it's a great way to ground in the purpose of our show and understand the vision for what we're aiming to do.

We hope you enjoy this "Top Hit" as we wrap up 2025!

And if you haven't done so yet, please Subscribe and Share our podcast with friends and family you might believe would enjoy and benefit from listening to our show.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!