Learning Through Experience

What if listening could change everything? This raw and captivating episode with guest Avi Kluger reveals how listening and the “space between” people can unlock new ways of seeing, feeling and transforming, and profoundly reshape how we lead, connect and grow. 

A pioneering researcher in feedback and organizational behavior, Avi shares his personal journey to understand the power of listening and its potential to unlock unexpected depths in ourselves and others. Beyond theory, he shows us the real-world stakes of genuine human connection. In a world where productivity often overshadows humanity, this conversation is a call to reimagine our workspaces and relationships as places of connection, resilience and hope. 

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

02:56 A Personal Journey: Growing Through Feedback

Avi reflects on his early life and how the intense feedback he received from his father shaped his career and lifelong dedication to understanding the impact of feedback.

08:06 Limitations of Traditional Psychology and Statistics in Understanding Interpersonal Dynamics

Avi discusses how his personal experiences led him to realize the limitations of traditional psychology and statistics in understanding interpersonal dynamics.

13:54 Creating Space for Change: Transformation Through Connection

Heidi and Avi discuss the “invisible space” between people during meaningful interaction—a dynamic that invites growth, fosters transformation, and becomes a unique shared experience.

22:43 The “Togetherness” That Opens Us

Avi introduces concepts like “positivity resonance” and “togetherness,” suggesting that growth occurs in a mutual space of connection, though such intimacy can be short-lived.

28:13 Feedforward vs. Feedback: A New Approach to Growth

Avi describes “feedforward” as a process focused on growth and exploration rather than judgment, contrasting it with traditional feedback that often triggers defensiveness.

33:42 Listening as Developmental: The Art of Being Present

Exploring methods for effective listening, Avi highlights the importance of being present and co-exploring with the other person, using specific questioning techniques to guide them in self-discovery.

Additional Resources 

• The Power of Listening in Helping People Change, Harvard Business Review
• Positive feedback: the science of feedback that actually works, Financial Times
• Listening, Not Feedback: A Powerful Way to Improve Well-Being and Performance, EdWeek

Learning through experience is dynamic, not static. As you’ll hear in this episode with artist Kim Weston, her photography is a way of deepening understanding of ourselves and the world around us, seen and unseen. 

Through compelling story and image, Kim takes us on a journey where each photograph tells a story of heritage, community and spirit. As she says, “Our ancestors are with us; the people we loved in the past are still beside us, even though we can’t see them with the naked eye.” Tune in to discover how Kim’s evocative work is transforming spaces and touching lives, inviting each of us to engage, reflect and experience life through the lens of art.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

03:37 Finding Art: From the Bronx to the Museum

Early experiences shape lifelong learning and creativity. Kim reflects on her childhood exposure to art in New York—immersive experiences that informed her sense of self and future as an artist. 

06:25 Identity Through Art

Representation in art can challenge societal norms and expand our understanding of beauty and identity. Kim describes her early fascination with the strength and diversity in Renaissance paintings. 

09:31 The Power of Mentorship and Community

Mentorship serves as a relational experience, shaping identity and purpose. Kim recalls formative years at Jamaica Arts Center, where mentors like Thelma Golden helped her realize the potential of her work. 

10:37 A Path to Spirit Photography

Personal challenges can reshape our life’s work. Kim shares the transformative impact of a health crisis, leading her to capture “spirit” and energy in her photography. 

20:52 Art as Community Experience at Yale

Discussion about Kim’s art installation at Yale School of Management, in a shared space where students can encounter Native American cultural expressions through the images. These works invite connection and reflection, bridging personal identity with shared experience.

27:12 Movement in Stillness: Capturing the Essence of Life

Heidi reflects on the “kinetic stillness” of Kim’s photographs, which capture multiple moments in one image, creating a sensation of life in motion. Kim shares the intentional artistry behind her technique, which aims to convey both presence and spirit.

30:52 Connection, Heritage and Earth Stewardship

Reflect on the spiritual, experiential aspects of learning. Kim’s art is a reminder of our collective journey.

Additional Resources 

• kimwestonimages.com + wabi.gallery
• @kimwestonimages + @wabigallery
• From Wabi Arts to Westfield, Kim Weston Grows Her Artistic Footprint (Arts Council Greater New Haven—2022)

Learning through experience requires us to shift from the purely intellectual to a more holistic engagement. I try to create that shift by opening each of my leadership classes with some form of art—a poem, a piece of music or a visual work. It’s a way of helping my students, many of whom are management or law students, executives, or leaders in their fields, step out of their typical "brain-bound" mindset and into a space where they can let their thoughts, emotions and values guide their learning. For many, it’s an inconvenient and unfamiliar approach, but it’s exactly what I believe opens their minds and hearts to walking an unconventional path toward growth. 

Dr. Liliana Milkova and I share a passion for this type of experiential learning. The Nolan Curator of Education at Yale University Art Gallery, Liliana uses art to foster reflective, perspective-shifting experiences to encourage people to slow down and engage deeply with what they see and feel. Drawing on her upbringing in Bulgaria and her extensive work in art education, she shares how object-based learning can transform the way we think and connect with others.

I encourage you to experience this episode by watching, versus just listening. Join us as we explore how art can shift the way we think, learn, connect and grow.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

02:19 Learning from Cultural Heritage – Growing up in Bulgaria, surrounded by historical objects, fostered Liliana’s deep connection to experiential learning, teaching her to engage with the world through observation, curiosity and reflection.

09:38 Teaching Through Art – "Teaching through art" rather than "teaching about art" catalyzes deeper, shared learning experiences—making abstract concepts more tangible through observation and personal interpretation.

14:37 Object-Based Learning – Through careful observation and multisensory experiences, learners develop critical thinking skills and form deeper connections with content.

18:00 Collaborative Learning and Perspective-Taking – Exercises like "Back-to-Back Drawing" improve communication and empathy by describing and interpreting objects from different angles.

32:39 Learning How to Learn – Developing individual strategies for processing information and engaging with experiences helps to build confidence and adapt to new situations by embracing diverse ways of thinking.

42:43 Reflection and Slowing Down – Slow down to fully engage with an object and allow time for deeper reflection. Creating space for shared insights and dialogue enhances the learning experience.

Resources

• Explore the Yale University Art Gallery Collection
• The University Museums and Collections Journal (UMACJ) on how university STEM and medicine classes are utlizing art collection in teaching and learning
• Object-based learning resources
• Object Based Learning: A Powerful Pedagogy for Higher Education: A powerful pedagogy for higher education — Queen's University Belfast
• Engaging the Senses: Object-Based Learning in Higher Education - 1st E (routledge.com)

How do different emotions impact everyday life? And what are the kinds of experiences we want and need—in the classroom, at work, and in our own developmental trajectories—to be able to deepen our emotional wisdom so we can make better decisions and have healthier relationships? In this episode of Learning Through Experience, we dig deep into feelings with Dr. Marc Brackett.

As he underscored during our conversation, “We all have emotions, whether we want them or not, and they can either help us achieve our goals or derail us.” The founding director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and professor in the Child Study Center at Yale, Marc is on a mission to ensure everyone gets an education in emotion and learns to navigate emotion effectively. After all, emotions are not going away; we have to learn to work with them wisely.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

2:54 An Emotional Journey – Marc reflects on his childhood experiences, including bullying and abuse, and an uncle who came into his life “at the right time, at the right place, with the right context,” greatly impacting his professional trajectory.

5:55 Learning Emotion Across the Lifespan – There’s a need for emotional education at every stage of life.

9:47 Emotions in the Workplace: A New Perspective – Organizations can create spaces for emotional expression. And they must; emotions influence performance and satisfaction at work.

20:51 The RULER Framework for Emotional Intelligence – Helping people develop emotional intelligence and fosters healthier emotional interactions in relationships and workplaces

32:29 Building Connection Through Listening – Getting to know people's stories to build true emotional understanding is paramount.

34:05 Cultivating Emotional Well-being – Practical strategies for enhancing emotional well-being at work, including intentional scheduling and creating spaces where people feel appreciated and heard.

39:45 The Future of Tech and Emotional Intelligence: There’s an app for that. AI can help us track our emotions and receive personalized suggestions for emotional regulation.

Additional Resources from Marc

• Permission to Feel: Unlocking the Power of Emotions to Help Our Kids, Ourselves, and Our Society Thrive

• How We Feel app

• Dealing with Feelings webcast

• Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence 

• RULER

• Selected scholarly articles 

 

How can we overcome change and learn to create a better experience at work—for ourselves and our teams? To launch us into Season Three of Learning Through Experience, my first guest explores with me the pedagogy of hope and transformation, focusing on interpersonal and group dynamics.

As Dr. Lisa Lahey aptly put it during our conversation, “When we invest in our relationships and our own development, we pave the way for a more hopeful and transformative future.” A renowned author on adult education and development, Lisa specializes in identifying personal and organizational impediments to change, and helping them unpack and understand these insights to ultimately break free of unproductive habits in order to achieve their goals.

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics

05:34 Formative experiences – Lisa shares two personal experiences that shaped her commitment to (and emphasized the importance of) listening and understanding group dynamics

08:06 Adult development theory – Introduction to adult development theory and its impact on personal growth

09:11 Navigating personal relationships – The challenges of balancing personal relationships and self-identity

12:13 The role of development – Emphasis on the necessity of personal development to navigate workplace challenges

16:09 Distinguishing learning and development – The difference between learning and deeper personal development

19:09 The role of others in development – How interpersonal relationships can support or hinder personal growth

30:50 Immunity to Change approach – How the immunity to change approach can help individuals and groups overcome barriers to personal and professional growth; applying the framework in the workplace

35:00 Future of work – How the evolving nature of work requires a shift in mindset toward collaboration and shared leadership

Additional Resources from Lisa

• Vox—I’ve spent my career studying bad habits. Here’s what I’ve learned about breaking them.

• Brené Brown podcast episodes—Immunity to Change, part 1 and part 2

• Putting the “Development” in Professional Development: Understanding and Overturning Educational Leaders’ Immunities to Change—a substantive piece linking adult development with ITC

Welcome to a new season of Learning Through Experience! This season will echo the cadence of one of my popular courses here at Yale since it is a learning through experience pedagogy. My conversations are with brilliant guests who help us think about how we learn through interpersonal and group experience from their area of expertise. This podcast is not just for students though—it’s for everyone who wants to co-create a future of work that is compelling, enlivening and worth fighting for. I’m glad you’re here!

Watch this episode on YouTube.

Can a mindfulness practice help us at work? In a season focusing on how we learn through experience, I wanted to make sure that we heard about some of the social science that supports the practices. My guest on this episode has lived a fascinating life and has so much wisdom to share on this topic. 

Lindsey Cameron is an assistant professor of management at the Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania. Her research focuses on the future of work and mindfulness. In addition to being a professor, she is also an experienced practitioner and teacher of meditation.

Key Topics:

01:24 Caring about individual stories: These individual stories link to a much broader social structure - Lindsey’s career journey;

05:02 The capacity to reflect: One of the core practices of learning through experience is the capacity to reflect;

09:27 Wisdom traditions and practices: Discovering and exploring wisdom traditions and practices despite an atheist upbringing;

16:03 The power of place: Place is not just held by the work setting itself but in all the small details we add to it;

19:22 Mindfulness practices: Why, how, and when reflection mindfulness practices, especially at work, can make a difference;

27:23 The future of work: Maintaining forward momentum and agency by crafting a narrative around oneself;

34:09 Being a less conventional presence in a conventional space: We all have a role to play in creating spaces that matter;

36:15 Mindfulness as an individual practice: Mindfulness practices were never meant to be done alone, they have always been practiced within some sort of community.

Additional Resources from Lindsey

Website 

Helping People by Being in the Present: Mindfulness Increases Prosocial Behavior

Harvard Business Review: Research: When Mindfulness Does — and Doesn’t — Help at Work

How can we change and transform the education system through leadership? The Broad Center at the Yale School of Management fosters the ideas, policies, and leadership to help all students in K-12 public schools — particularly those from underserved communities — to learn and thrive. 

Broad is a stellar example of the unique mission of Yale SOM: educating leaders for business and society. Since I feel connected and inspired by the mission, I appreciate how much the presence of Broad in my experience at Yale keeps me particularly connected and inspired by the noble and meaningful work of transforming the school system.

In March of 2024, the Broad Fellows were part of an immersion learning experience with me. I love Broad and was inspired by the way they engaged in learning through an immersion intensive. This episode is a window into their learning experience in the interpersonal and group dynamics course. 

Hanseul Kang, the executive director of the Broad Center, began her journey as a Broad Fellow. The Fellowship for Public Education Leadership is a program for public education leaders dedicated to strengthening public school systems and the communities they serve.

In this episode, we also hear from current Broad Fellows: Xiomara Herman, Andrew McRae, and Jorge Robles.

Key Topics:

01:48 Challenging our understanding of leadership: How the current definition of leadership is too narrow to change and transform the education system;

03:21 The limitations of defensive interpersonal dynamics: Managing complex interpersonal dynamics from a place of defensiveness or self-protection can limit leadership effectiveness;

04:49 Why the education system needs to be transformed: In addition to individual agency, there are structural forces that play a large part in the reality of many learners;

09:59 Building range and expanding leadership capacity: The hope and challenge of learning through experience;

13:30 Directing your learning as a leader: When you need to change and transform people, systems, and possibilities, it's not just about pedagogy, transaction, or expertise- it’s also about your aspirations and how you show up;

20:35 Transforming the education sector: Reflecting and inquiring about the education sector and ways of learning that hold individuals as capable of growing as human beings.

Additional Resources

The Broad Center

Hanseul Kang

Xiomara Herman

Andrew McRae

Jorge Robles

This podcast season is all about the HOW of learning through experience. We learn through experience using four core practices: challenging your perspective, stretching and building range, directing your learning, reflection and inquiry. The core practice that we are paying attention to in this episode of Learning Through Experience is reflection and inquiry. 

In this episode, I spoke with reflective writing practitioner and teacher Stephanie Dunson about reflective practice through writing. We cover the practice of reflective writing, including the struggle of writing, and she offers some prompts for you to use in your own reflective writing practice.

Stephanie is a renowned facilitator who uses writing as a tool for problem-solving and collaboration in both the academic and corporate worlds. 

Key Topics:

04:24 The challenge of writing: The limits of writing towards an outcome in contrast to writing for the reflection and exploration of our own thoughts and feelings;

08:33 The meander of writing: Writing doesn’t work in a straight line, rather it follows a natural sort of meander. By meandering through a piece, we get to know the writer’s mind;

15:18 Reflective writing: The concept of using writing as a tool for deep thinking and developing relationships with complex material;

21:15 Reflective writing in groups: Engaging in the moment of making new ideas as a group and combining the strengths of the individual with the power and diversity of the group;

23:03 The practice of writing: Developing the capacity to reflect, notice, and meander as a practice in life and writing;

30:48 Prompts for reflective writing: What have you considered writing about but abandoned? Explore the places of resistance and write into that space.

Additional Resources from Stephanie Dunson

Podcast: 100 Mistakes Academic Writers Make …and How to Fix Them

Website

This season we've been taking on HOW to learn through experience which fundamentally challenges the brain-bound assumption that learning starts and stays in the brain. We aren't so great at honoring the wisdom, expertise, and leadership that emerges from lived experience, but our own life may guide us – especially if we tap into learning practices, like reflection and challenging our perspective.

My guest on this episode is a shining example of widely acknowledged wisdom and leadership gained primarily through powerful life experience. You will hear how he came to take risks without the fear of failing, and a good dose of learning through reflection in the company of others.

Erik Clemons is co-founder of the Connecticut Community Outreach and Revitalization Program (ConnCORP) designed to explore and implement opportunities for economic development and investment in New Haven. 

In all his work creating systems and community change, he has found that before any transformation of others takes place, you need to be personally transformed.  Erik Clemons is a natural storyteller- and his story of transforming himself and creating transformation for and with others is a joy to experience.

Key Topics:

03:49 Becoming through experience: Learning the world and teaching yourself – Erik’s story of learning and becoming through experience;

10:56 From mail handler to executive director: Knowing who you are and understanding who you want to be;

15:33 The Connecticut Center for Arts and Technology: How Erik’s lived experience equipped him to understand and serve his community;

18:47 Failure as part of learning: To be truly innovative and able to create change, you need to be willing to take risks;

20:22 Transforming a major artery in New Haven: Listening to community members to create service, beauty, and dignity in a community that deserved it;

27:02 Unconscious competence: Believing in your own capacity and using all of your lived experience to find a way;

29:10 Changing systems and supporting communities: We can’t transform community unless we are willing to be transformed by community;

36:04 The power of hope: Hope is what allows striving to happen.

Additional Resources from Erik

Podcast episode: Building Community Wealth and Power

LinkedIn

ConnCORP